IDEA, IEPs and ABA with Matthew Storey, Esq. Part II

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_03 (00:00):
Welcome to ABA on Tap, where our goal is to find

(00:14):
the best recipe to brew thesmoothest, coldest, and best
tasting ABA around.
I'm Dan Lowry with Mike Rubio,and join us on our journey as we
look back into the ingredientsto form the best concoction of
ABA on tap.
In this podcast, we will talkabout the history of the ABA

(00:35):
brew, how much to consume toachieve the optimum buzz while
not getting too drunk, and therecommended pairings to bring to
the table.
So without further ado, sitback, relax, and always analyze
responsibly.

SPEAKER_00 (00:54):
All right, all right, and welcome back to part
two with Matthew's story.
Enjoy and always analyzeresponsibly.

SPEAKER_03 (01:02):
I know it's been so much time going over the
resources, which we'll talkabout later, that you have, but
there's a lot of free stuff.
I just want to really emphasizethat we're not saying you have
to go out and spend a lot ofmoney.
In fact, I remember a littleanecdotal story, but when you
were first introduced to me, mybuddy was like, oh man, he's a
special ed lawyer.
And I was like, oh, I have akid.
Here we go again.
And then I realized thedifference.
I didn't know the difference atthe time.

(01:23):
But you know, my...
Advocates are very hit and miss.
There's a lot of advocates.
My partner's been dealing withthem for probably 20 years.
Because they get paid by thehour, and like you said, there's
no real qualification to be anadvocate.
I could say I'm an advocateright now and charge whatever.
They'll spend hours arguingabout grammar on an IEP or is
the I dotted or T crossed orstuff like that.

(01:44):
So it's a service you definitelywant to vet, and there can
certainly be really good onesand really good benefits for it,
but we're not saying you have todo it.
But what we are reallysuggesting is making sure you
empower yourself in whatever waythat you can afford.

SPEAKER_01 (01:56):
Yeah, and I would definitely ask around before you
choose an advocate.
There's a lot more advocatesthan there are attorneys.
And there are some really goodones.
Not sure my mom was a goodadvocate.
I think she was probably ayeller.
So she was venting at those IEPteams.
But no, I'm just kidding.

SPEAKER_03 (02:11):
You know, it's interesting because I've seen a
lot of advocates come, kind oflike your experience, have like
a son or daughter or familymember that was wronged in their
mind, whether they were orweren't, was wronged by the
education system.
Yeah.
it's their way to give back toothers but sometimes having an
advocate that has a child orfamily member that was in that
situation can actually becounterproductive because they

(02:34):
run everything through the lensof their child and how their
child was wrong and it'sdifficult for them to
compartmentalize

SPEAKER_01 (02:40):
no and if they're walking into meetings angry and
vindictive we do see that a lotand again I meet with parents
I'm actually this last two weeksago I met with a parent who had
an advocate who I'd never metand the advocate spent 20% of
the time telling me how I waswrong and I forget what it was
it was something to do actuallyI think it was a one-to-one aid
and it was for reading I'm likehe needs a one-to-one aid for

(03:00):
reading I'm like well one-to-oneaid is not going to help you
with that no no I mean they needto have specific instruction I
agree with you but a one-to-oneaid is not going to get you
there you're wrong the case lawsays this okay well good luck
you know and but you know theparent at that point had really
believed in what the advocatewas doing they're going to have
a real tough time right and thatbecomes quite an issue but

(03:22):
parents can usually find goodresources I mean still on
Facebook.
From what I understand, you cankind of get out there and find
somebody who's using theadvocate you may want to hire.
It's a nice way to get areferral.

SPEAKER_03 (03:32):
Facebook can also be dangerous.
I'm not saying it's not.
I remember, Mike, I loved yourstory about why you quit
advocacy.

SPEAKER_00 (03:41):
Well, it was being told what to do.
So I had the vendorizationthrough the regional center,
which I felt very good about.
And then I I felt prettycompetent and I started being
asked or requested that I doprivate advocacy work, which I
was thrilled about based on thecompensation.
And then I realized that basedon that compensation, these
parents just wanted to tell meexactly what to get them.

(04:02):
And I used to make the joke,I'll get you a new water heater
if you want.
And I actually can, if you canprove that your child needs a
hot shower in the morning toaccess education.
However, is that the best use ofour time and our tax dollars
here?
And that was kind of the joke.
And that's why I had to quit.
I mean, I was also moving intoABA and whatnot.
I'd I have a pretty variedhistory, a pretty colorful

(04:23):
background.
But that was the main reason isI didn't like it.
And I was always getting upendedby some other advocate who was
then going to promise theparents this or that or the
other.
And I was really trying to lookat, hey, look, this is what is
best for your child.
And logistically speaking,again, you don't have to stick
to this, but I know your schoolcan provide this without too
much more of a ring of a rolland trying to find out what
these services are.

(04:43):
So trying to be practical andpragmatic and saying, this is
what your child can benefitfrom.
It's right there.
Yes, it's not the exact thingthat we might want legally, but
it might...
work for now as you pursue theother part and a lot of times it
was you know those advocatesthat were going to come in and
yell and not try to collaboratewith the school staffs i was i
just really tried to becollaborative behaviorally

(05:04):
speaking because it i didn'twant some teacher to be afraid
of me i wanted to know that iwas going to be thorough and
that more than anything i wasgoing to be there to support her
too and say hey have you triedthis that or the other so

SPEAKER_01 (05:13):
yeah well it's not a tv show i get parents that do
that all the time they're likewell i want a bulldog it's not
going to happen i'm good at whati do i don't need to yell and
scream at people you know that'snot how this process works you
know and then they do that withadvocates too I have a lot of
friends who are advocates andthey drop clients really fast
because of stuff like thatthat's how they found their
space to work here this is astressful place to work in right

(05:34):
because you got parents who youknow rightly so are very upset
and then they come to you andsometimes that they begin you
know treating you you know notnot well and we do this we'll
get rid of parents as well likeyou know that I understand
you're upset you have a reasonto be upset this is not the way
this is going to work advocatesdeal with that the most you know
and then what happens like youjust said this happens a lot a

(05:54):
parent will go to an advocatewho's a great advocate the
advocate will say listen this isyou know we need to do a b and c
and that's not what the parentwanted then they'll go to
another advocate who promisedthem the stars you know and it
doesn't work out i mean it's atough it's a tough system to
work

SPEAKER_00 (06:07):
it's easy to walk in there it's very validating for
parents you're screaming ontheir behalf and you're pointing
at people but at the end of theday i don't i never found that
um and i i can gladly say inever did that but in having
watched other people operate anddoing that i never walked out of
those rooms feeling like anybodymaybe the parent felt like they
were supported Yeah.
But I would see a very dejectedschool team and it's like, well,
these are the people that areworking with your kid.

(06:28):
Do you really want them feelingthat way when you walk out of
here?
I don't think so.

SPEAKER_01 (06:32):
Well, I've told many a parent and told that because
you've destroyed any legal caseyou have.
So let's say you've got thisadvocate who's yelling and
screaming at an IEP team.
You've audio recorded it.
Okay.
Good.
Good.
Which is a good idea.
And a judge hears that they'regoing to side with the team.
They're just going to side withthe team.
You're not doing yourself anyfavors by raising your voice and
yelling at an IEP team.
Even by the way, sometimes theydeserve it.

(06:52):
Sure.
It does not.
Sure.
They do.
anyway, to have somebody in thatmeeting, scolding people, it,
you need to become, you need toask important questions, listen
to the answers, come up withsuggestions, but there are
actual cases out there wherejudges have admonished the
advocate and the parent, youknow, and almost sanctioned them
because of the behavior and IEPteam.
Parents have to cool it on that.

SPEAKER_00 (07:12):
And that's off the legality at that point.
I mean, this is, this is just areactionary.
I mean, for better or for worse,they're saying, Nope, this is
not the way these proceedingsare going to work.
You're done.
You've lost your case, not onmerit, but just on, yeah, on I
mean, because judges...
I mean, I could go

SPEAKER_01 (07:26):
off.
We do not have the best judgesin the world in our field in
California.
I speak, I think, pretty wellfor most.
And so, you know, most of thejudges that come into our field
never did special education.
This is considered complexlitigation,

SPEAKER_02 (07:40):
which means

SPEAKER_01 (07:40):
there's a premium on it because not a lot of people
do it.

UNKNOWN (07:42):
It's very difficult.

SPEAKER_00 (07:44):
So we bring in people and they're ALJs,
administrative law judges.
Right,

SPEAKER_01 (07:48):
right.
You know, it was a will andtrust attorney who got a state
job and they don't know anythingabout this process.
So they're they come into here,they automatically, because
they've never worked this field,don't understand how schools
work.
They believe everything thedistrict does is altruistic.
And then they hear you on arecording yelling at the team,
you lose.

SPEAKER_00 (08:04):
It's all over.

SPEAKER_01 (08:05):
Yeah.
And I mean, parents lose 82 to87% of all cases that go before
the California administrativecourts.
They're bad.
They're really bad.
There are some good judges, buta lot of bad ones, you know, and
so it's a tough case.
It can be a real tough thing topursue litigation here.

SPEAKER_03 (08:21):
You made an interesting statement a little
bit earlier about, you know,parents may being emotional I
can imagine like maybe the yourchild like you said maybe the
child's even larger than theparent maybe hitting and kicking
like you're as a parent and youboth are parents you probably
can relate to just the stress ofhaving typically developing
child and you mentioned yourchild was on IEP maybe not
talking for a period of time soyou're just really stressed out

(08:43):
and you get this report whereit's just like your child's not
making progress like I imaginethat's just got to be
overwhelming for lack

SPEAKER_01 (08:50):
of a better term emotional and angry like I mean
I think there needs to be roomfor parents to be able to vent a
little bit, you know, to acertain degree.
I don't know where the line iswith that, but yeah, I mean,
it's no matter who it is, it'syour kid and you're completely
invested in this little humanand everything that goes on is
an emotional thing for you.
And especially if you have a kidwho's disabled, you have a kid

(09:10):
who's disabled.
That is a different degree ofstress that parents go through.
So there needs to be a line forparents or a place for parents
to be frustrated, especially ifyou don't see a lack of
progress.
Well, I think what we're talkingabout too, to some degree, agree
is that you know people can feedoff that right you know this is
a this can be a targetedcommunity sometimes with people

(09:32):
promising all kinds of snake oiland that that sometimes is my
job is to explain what they'vebeen told is incorrect or wrong
and try to walk them down thatright path because it's you know
there's a lot of advocates outthere a good amount of advocates
who do that a good advocate ifyou hear the words you're wrong
I think you probably got a goodadvocate I think you got I think

(09:53):
That's their job.
If you have an advocate sayingeverything you're telling me is
right constantly, that might notbe a good sign.
The best advocates I know herein San Diego especially, they
tell me all the time that theytold their clients they were
wrong.
They know their stuff.
That's their job.

SPEAKER_00 (10:10):
As a parent, you've got the advocate telling you
you're right on everything.
Why do you need the advocate

SPEAKER_01 (10:13):
anymore?
What was the point

SPEAKER_00 (10:15):
of any of that?
You're working yourself out of ajob, buddy.

SPEAKER_01 (10:17):
You're paying a lot of money just to go do the same
thing.

SPEAKER_03 (10:21):
You said that parents lose 82% 87%.
That's just the kind of personthat had to let that marinate
for a second.
Why do you think that is?

SPEAKER_01 (10:28):
Why is that?
There's a couple reasons.
That's a good question.
We used to be under a differentcourt system called CHO, which I
could not explain now.
It used to be run out of PacificMcGeorge Law School.
I remember that.
Basically, under the IDEA, youhave the right to file what we
call a due process.
Every state is different.
Ours are under the Department ofEducation.

(10:49):
It's an administrative case,which is totally different.
They They're very fast cases, acouple of months, and an
administrative law judge, nojury, decides on the merits of
your case.
That's what it is.
So if a district's notassessing, providing services,
what have you.
Historically, about 10 yearsago, we were under CEHO, and it
was about 50-50.

(11:09):
Parents won 50% of the time.
Districts won 50% of the time.
And then we went to the Officeof Administrative Hearings.
The Office of AdministrativeHearings is a huge network of
different...
They do Social Security stuff,IHSS stuff, all kinds of stuff.
And we have a special educationgroup of judges who hear our
cases.

(11:29):
Some are good.
Some have no experience.
And we lose a lot of cases.
The reason The reason we do, Imean, it's a lack of training.
It's a lack of professionalismin this community.
You know, they don't have peoplethat used to work in this field.
And, you know, I mean, I've beendoing this for almost 15 years.
I'm still learning things.
OK, so there's no way somebodywith no experience could be an

(11:52):
effective judge.
And then I think on the outsideof that, you know, not a lot of
attorneys go to trial.
And so a lot of times in ourfield, attorney will only go
through what we call mediationand then we'll drop the case.
So we don't have a lot ofattorneys that go to trial.
And then even if they lose, theydon't challenge it.
So we don't have as muchprecedent in the state of

(12:12):
California as we probably needto overturn, you know, ALJs.
The third reason is because theythey're not admonished to any
degree.
So if a judge has a baddecision, I read it.
I look at it.
A district reads it and they go,well, that's clearly not the
law.
I've had that where a judgewrote the law completely wrong.

(12:32):
There's no system of checks andbalances that's effective at
least at the Office ofAdministrative Hearings.
And so it's a very toughprocess.
What I tell my clients everytime is I say, we're going to go
to due process.
We're going to lose.
And then we're going to file itin federal court and we're going
to win.
That's what it is.
Because a federal judge,especially here in San Diego.
We're in the Southern District.
They're great.

(12:53):
We've got really good judges.
They'll overturn an ALGA.
We see that consistently.
Fortunately, I've won the lasthandful of cases, but the cases
we have lost, we appeal and itusually goes from there.
We have to tell parents, I wantyou to expect to lose.
We're just here to create arecord.
Then we're going to move righton to federal court.

(13:14):
That's what this process isgoing to look like.

SPEAKER_03 (13:17):
You personally have a pretty good success for the
cases that you litigate,

SPEAKER_01 (13:20):
right?
I'm knocking on wood like crazy.
Yeah, I don't know how manycases I've done.
I've lost two, two cases out ofall the cases I've done.
But I think I've gotten, beinghonest, I've gotten lucky with
the judges for the most part.
And the cases that I've lost,the judges were not awesome, for
lack of a better word.

(13:41):
And one of them was overturnedand the other one just settled.
And so it really, that matters.
The issue we run into, likeagain, For me as a lawyer, there
are really, really, really goodlawyers in this state.
I think the best in the countrythat I've run into, that I've
learned from.
But we still have a lot ofattorneys that won't even go to

(14:02):
trial.
That's been a frustrating issue.
So if you're a parent and you'regoing to a lawyer, you need to
make sure they go to what wecall due process or trial.
That's a huge thing becausenobody cares.
Districts laugh at the attorneysthat don't go.
And so that becomes a wholeother issue that kind of segues
into something else.

SPEAKER_03 (14:18):
Do they, so you're saying a parent should ask if
you go will a lawyer thatdoesn't go to due process or
trial just flat out say

SPEAKER_01 (14:24):
i don't or will they okay yeah usually usually and
again you won't run into thatissue pretty much most places in
the state i think la san diegothere's only a few that well
there's there's a good amount ishould say that do do that

SPEAKER_00 (14:36):
what part of that um would you say is more of a
bargaining chip so the idea thata school district uh their legal
they're going to have toconsider yeah how much they need
they want to spend on actuallysticking to their side.

SPEAKER_01 (14:46):
I've got a story for that.

SPEAKER_00 (14:48):
Okay.
So, um,

SPEAKER_01 (14:49):
so I was in, uh, this was a couple of years ago.
There was somebody I knew thatpracticed on our side.
Dan knows who it is.
I'm not going to throw thisperson under the bus.
So, um, so we're sitting thereand they, they'd asked me about
the individual.
How would they not say, Ihaven't talked to this guy in a
long time.
And I go, they like, yeah, wejust saw them in a case.

(15:10):
I'm like, Oh, how'd it go?
He's like, Oh, he didn't go totrial.
We're good.
And what do you mean?
You're good.
He's like, yeah, He gave up.
We just knew we had to push itpast mediation.
That's the difference.
If a district believes thatyou're going to take them to
trial, for sure, they're goingto take you more seriously.
That's every field.
You wouldn't.
You would just be looking atyour watch going, well, you're

(15:31):
going to give up anyways.
That doesn't always happen.
Districts do look a lot oftimes, at least in my
experience, at the merits of thecase.
They do.
The people that I've worked within every district in San Diego,
I like.
I like the lawyers.
I like the representatives weget along you know we disagree
we disagree professionallytotally great so most of the

(15:53):
time they're still going to workit out but yeah I mean for sure
the districts know who they cansteam steam roll over and they
do it pretty consistently youknow depending on the case but
yeah you know like I said I dosee that quite a bit more these
days but again like I mentionedguys there's not a lot of
attorneys in this field you knowthere really are not people have
to have a personal connectionI've never seen anybody and I

(16:15):
don't know how to works for youguys.
I've never seen anybody withouta personal connection as a
lawyer succeed.
They always have a story, justlike mine.
Their son, their daughter, theirbrother, their sister, their
aunt.
Somebody in the family, somebodythey knew.
Yeah, because it's an odd fieldto go in.
You have to be comfortablearound this stuff.
We all work in this community.
I am totally comfortable.

(16:36):
You are totally comfortablebeing around people with
disabilities.
This bears repeating.
Sometimes people are not.
You've seen it, I'm sure.
That guy that's never beenaround CP, that guy that's never
been around autism or Downsyndrome, they're uncomfortable.
Same applies for lawyers okayright and so you have to be
comfortable talking to parentsdoesn't bother me at all to talk
to a parent with a disabilitytalk about their kid but I know

(16:59):
for a fact because I've hiredlawyers that have had this issue
they have a real tough timetalking to parents about their
kid and this stuff that they'redoing and so you have to get
kind of past that hurdle to thenkind of successfully work in
this field you know whichhopefully they do we do need
more lawyers by the way that isfor sure we're always trying to
get more lawyers into this fieldthey usually last about six
months to a year that seems toThat seems to be the number.

SPEAKER_00 (17:22):
Okay.
I'll extend that a little bit.
I think you have to becomfortable around those that
are also uncomfortable to makethem comfortable.
Oh

SPEAKER_01 (17:28):
my God,

SPEAKER_00 (17:29):
yeah.
Yeah.
Because you can't let them makeyou uncomfortable.
That derails everything.
Yeah,

SPEAKER_01 (17:32):
like two weeks ago, I had a client in my office and
there was a few of us in thereand her son came in, grabbed me,
grabbed my hair, pulled it wayback, took my glasses and left.
It was just like, all right, youknow, that's a Monday right
there.
That's a Monday.
That's why you don't have hair?
Yeah, no.
If we had a video here, We wouldshow you who's taller and has
less hair.

(17:54):
You know both of those are true.

SPEAKER_03 (17:57):
I have a few more questions or points.
You're up.
I want to do a pros and conslist.
What are some things that yousee specific for schools that
you would advise parents tomaybe look out for?
Kind of on that side, what areyour...
suggestions.

SPEAKER_01 (18:17):
Well, I mean, so when you say what to look out
for, do you mean like stuffthey're telling you, stuff
they're doing?
I mean, kind of across theboard.

SPEAKER_03 (18:23):
Yeah.
So, It was going to lead to myquestion in a little bit of when
should they reach out to alawyer, but as a lawyer, maybe
some things that they could dobefore they get to you, some
things to look out for, maybethat school districts, again,
not trying to throw schooldistricts under the bus, maybe
you see frequently that theydon't do that they should be

(18:43):
doing or they shouldn't do thatthey should be doing, some
things that, specifics thatparents should know about and
look for or look out for.

SPEAKER_01 (18:50):
I think you could start off chronologically.
You're seeing something wrongand you've told the district,
hey, my son or daughter's notreading.
They're showing signs of autism.
They're not speaking.
What can we do?
If a district's not assessing,that's a red flag.
So every single week, and thedistrict, a buddy of mine who
works in San Diego Unified wouldtotally validate this.
He gets an email from me thathas a kid's name and says the

(19:12):
school failed to assess.
Can you get this done?
The parent has shown, you know,asked for an assessment.
And in California, if a parentasks for an assessment, you've
got 15 days to hand that parentan assessment plan and start the
assessment process.
Every single week, I get a casewhere, you know, that has
happened.
That's an easy lawsuit, by theway.
Instead of doing that, I emailusually the director of special
ed in a couple of differentdistricts, but the one in San

(19:33):
Diego, he and I just have a goodrelationship.
So I email and they immediatelybegin assessing.

SPEAKER_02 (19:37):
Okay.

SPEAKER_01 (19:38):
What a parent can do right off the bat is put things
in writing.
You have class dojo, you haveJupiter grades, you have email,
really put things in writing.
And there's a couple reasons forthat.
Number one, you know, if you'rea teacher and you know, you
guys, you've had young kids,right?
You go pick your kid up fromclass and 25 other kids there.
If you go talk to the teacher,they're not going to remember a
dang thing you

SPEAKER_02 (19:58):
just

SPEAKER_01 (19:59):
said, right?
So put it in writing, startmaking that a habit.
Yes, you talk to the teacher,but follow up in writing.
So, you know, I think numbertwo, um, a parent could
definitely, you know, startreading the IEP a little bit
more than they normally do andnot sign that document until
they understand it.
I think a parent could audiorecord their IEPs.
I do.

(20:19):
It's not weird.
It's a great way to keep arecord and not have to go back.
Um, As far as, I'm trying tothink of your question to what
do I see districts doing?
It's really the big thing we seeis a failure to assess.
After that, it gets bigger.
It gets bigger.
It's a failure to provideappropriate services.
So reading has been a big issuein California.

(20:40):
All of our kids came home inCOVID and we realized they
weren't reading.
That was it.
That literally happened inCalifornia because we knew, or
teachers knew, they were notteaching them how to read
appropriately.
We went to the Culkin's method,which you can look up.
And we've been trying to get thescience of reading where we
teach kids the foundationalblocks of reading, phonetic
understanding, and then buildthem up.

(21:00):
But we haven't been teachingkids how to read.
That's why you have so manydyslexia issues.
And so schools are just catchingup with that.
They're starting to get theirright Orton, Gillingham, Wilson,
Barton programs in line.
But having those appropriateservices and noting when they
need to be put in place.
Another red flag is a big one isif those goals weren't met and

(21:21):
the team is doing the same thingthe next year, you know
something Okay.
For sure, something's wrongbecause that makes no sense.
IEP needs to change every yearif that stuff hasn't been met.
It's kind of a long-windedanswer.

SPEAKER_03 (21:32):
Okay.
So not assessing initially?
Not assessing.
Progress, like stagnant progresswithout change?

SPEAKER_01 (21:39):
Yeah, and then not making adjustments to the IEP,
and then not providingappropriate services.
And here's the thing.
As a parent, you're not going toknow, which is why at the
beginning of this conversation,I pushed so hard for independent
assessments.
It's okay for you as a parent tohave no idea what's going on.
what needs to be done.
You know something's wrong,right?
You get it.
You're like, okay, I'm notseeing progress.

(22:00):
You know, there's somethingsocially is going on.
You just need to know that theyneed to do something.
And that something is usuallyassessments.
And if that assessment doesn'twork, then it's independent
assessments.
And if you know those few thingsand put everything in writing,
you're going to have afundamentally better IEP
process.

SPEAKER_03 (22:15):
I definitely noticed some of the parents that I
worked with that used certainterms like free and appropriate
education or IEE, things likethat.
All of a sudden, the IEP wastotally different.
Yeah.
Again, not that the teachers ormembers of the IEP were against
them, but all of a sudden theyminded their P's and Q's and
they made sure that everythingwas by the book.

SPEAKER_00 (22:33):
Behaviorally, I think it shows a certain level
of investment on those parents,right?
So I like your point, not to saythat those teachers or that
school staff is taking it backand be like, oh, now we're
busted as much as, oh, nowsomebody's talking our language
or our technology.
So I do think it, yes, certainlyyou can catch some people that
think you didn't know what youwere talking about, for sure.
And then I do think that itprobably puts those, hopefully

(22:53):
puts that school staff at easeand going, okay, this parent is
invested.
They know what they're talkingabout.
Hopefully they can respondaccordingly.
I love the

SPEAKER_01 (23:00):
parent that brings donuts to IEP meetings.
Oh, man.
I know plenty, right?
You've heard this.
Yeah, no, for sure.
You're dealing with people,right?
Yeah, it's the way to do it.
And this stuff was hard fought.
We talked about it before wecame on.
Getting these proceduralprotections, these services in
place, this was a hard fightthat took a long time.
And so I always tell parents,please appreciate the amount of

(23:20):
work that has gone into gettingthis stuff available for you.
So take the time to learn it.
and you'll be a better advocatefor your kid.

SPEAKER_03 (23:26):
So you brought up IEEE a bunch of times.
Just for specifics, how exactlydoes the parent...
The parent just says, I want anIEP.
They get a list of provider.
It can...
So

SPEAKER_01 (23:37):
here's how IEs work.
Typically a district gets thefirst bite of the apple.
So let's play it out withautism.
You, you, you tell the district,Hey, I believe my child has
autism and the district does anassessment.
You don't agree with it.
So at that point you can requestan independent education
evaluation and the district onlyhas two options.
They can either fund it, whichplays, they, you know, you go
choose your provider and thedistrict contracts with them,

(23:59):
but you have to remember thedistrict can also file a due
process to defend theirassessment.
So we call that funder file.
So most districts across thestate are going to grant that IE
because it's a waste of money tofile a due process there are a
couple districts who will file adue process and it's awful if
they do that I think it's one ofthe worst decisions a school
district can ever make becauselitigating you're suing a parent

(24:20):
I mean that's clearly stupid butthere are some districts that do
that very specific districts andwe see all kinds of problems in
the districts you know thatwaste the money and time on that
stuff

SPEAKER_03 (24:31):
okay so they just request say I want an IE and
they will be given a list ofpeople they can call but you can
also choose

SPEAKER_01 (24:36):
your own Yeah, you'll be given a list.
Parents ask that all the time.
Well, are they going to give mea list?
They are.
They're going to give you a listof IE providers.
Call them and see who you like.
But you also have theopportunity to go and find your
own assessor.
They have to meet certaincriteria.
Usually there's a cost cap offunding that you have access to.
In San Diego, in SouthernCalifornia, they're always going
to meet the cost cap, so you'refine.

(24:57):
And then you can just ask otherpeople.
We keep a list of advocates.
Other attorneys keep a list ofpeople they use.
And by the way, they're usuallypretty consistent.
IE list is almost the same as mylist,

SPEAKER_02 (25:06):
yeah.
Okay.
I'm

SPEAKER_00 (25:07):
going to give you a magic wand here.
Or did you have a follow-up?
So a magic wand here.
One thing, if you could changeone thing, or more than one
thing, but what would you changeabout school district and just
programmatic behavior that youthink could make a big
difference?

SPEAKER_01 (25:22):
That's a big question.

SPEAKER_00 (25:23):
I know.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (25:24):
So I would want more money, smaller class sizes.
You know, those are the twobiggest issues I see in
education right now.
And with the DOE closing, orthat's not going to close, but
with the issues we're seeingthat's a problem we don't take
education serious in thiscountry and my thought is always
we should be going for thegreatest public schools that

(25:45):
have ever existed that should bethe mantra in my mind we're not
even anywhere near that howeverthe two issues that I see that
always seem to be rubbingagainst each other are too many
kids in a classroom and notenough money and because of that
it's an endless cycle you know Ihave a nine year old and if I go
to a birthday party with 30 kidsit's chaos Why would you expect

(26:08):
different in a third gradeclassroom?
And by the way, my son'steacher, awesome.
They do a great job.
But this idea that we're shoving25 elementary school kids in a
class and thinking that's okayis so unbelievably stupid.
It's hard to sometimes reconcilewith reality.
And to

SPEAKER_03 (26:25):
expect that they're going to be on similar levels.

SPEAKER_01 (26:26):
Oh my God, no.
And that the teacher's going toknow where your child is.
And so to me, really up untilfourth grade, people ask me this
all the time, I wouldn't havemore than 10 kids in a
classroom.
Right.
Because from fourth grade, yougo from learning to read to
reading to learn.
And then I would startincrementally increasing it.
And then if you do that, youhave less services required

(26:47):
because the kid's getting moreindividualized attention.
A teacher with a kid withbehaviors in a class of 25 is
going to have a tougher timethan a teacher with 10 kids in a
class.
So I'd like to see that.
But really, a lot of this comesdown to funding.
The IDEA mandated 40% of states'money would come from the
federal government.
They've never gone beyond that.
down 13%.

(27:07):
It's just not a big priority.
Wow.
So when we're talking about thelack of services, this is all
money.
It's all money.
Teachers aren't paid enough.
Service providers aren't paidenough and we don't have enough.

SPEAKER_00 (27:18):
Professional development.
Oh my God.
And

SPEAKER_01 (27:20):
they're in schools that are falling apart.

SPEAKER_00 (27:22):
Sure.

SPEAKER_01 (27:22):
Right.
And so that's kind of thereality of education.
You're right.
Professional development's a bigone.

SPEAKER_00 (27:27):
It's huge.

SPEAKER_01 (27:27):
They're not, they're not given the time, the money or
the resources to go to places tolearn the new things that are
out there.
Yeah.
And, and then they're not paidenough to do it.
You know, The idea thatteachers, you know, they're
graduate level educated, youknow, and it should be
competitive, right?
A teacher, you know, you shouldwant to be a teacher.
We're not seeing that anymore,especially a special ed teacher.

SPEAKER_00 (27:48):
Nobody wants that job.
Hard jobs.

SPEAKER_01 (27:50):
You know, they're like the best people in the
world.
So I think a special ed teachermight be paid$1,000 or$2,000
more than a general ed teacher.
That's insane.
Why would you do that job, youknow, and get hit, kicked,
slapped, yelled at all day?

SPEAKER_00 (28:03):
It's all heart work.
I think it's all, I mean, that'sthe only answer I have is those
people have to be have it inthem.
They're

SPEAKER_01 (28:07):
amazing people.

SPEAKER_00 (28:07):
Yeah.
Yeah.
You've got it in you.
I was going to ask you, whatwould you change for, uh, for
school teachers, but it'sprobably the same answer.
I would pay

SPEAKER_01 (28:13):
them substantially more.
Did my partner put you up forthat?
No, no, no.
Well, I mean, school, like Ialways tell people being a
teacher is cool because thinkabout your work life balance.
You know, you work 180 days ayear, you know, most people work
240.
So you've got that in the bagand then your day schedule is
not too bad.
You're getting off at two,you're getting off at three.
I know there's a lot of work inbetween.

(28:35):
I'm not saying they have iteasy.
But I think, you know, you're,we live in here in San Diego.
You cannot pay somebody withthat degree, 50, 60,$70,000 a
year.
It's got to be substantiallymore, not only to make it
viable, but to make itcompetitive.
You want people to want to beteachers when they come out of
college.
You want that this site, youknow, especially when we're
talking about STEM, you know,you want these amazing

(28:58):
mathematicians and biologists tocome into public schools, but we
don't do that.
And then the more we createcharter schools and what the
department of education is goingthe less we're just funding
them.
It's ridiculous.
It is a ridiculous, likevouchers.

SPEAKER_00 (29:11):
Segway, right?
He just gave it to us.
Sure.
Oh, you want a segway?
Department of Education.
Yeah.
I know that that's been in thenews as of late, something about
dissolving an entire Departmentof Education, which, you know,
without saying too much, I'llpass it over to you.
Can I

SPEAKER_01 (29:24):
use whatever language I want?
No, no, no.
If you cuss, we will have tomark it as explicit.
If you curse, we have to checkthis little box.
So, you remember how earlier wetalked about people that don't
know what they're doing being incharge of of a system.
So if you have people railingagainst the Department of
Education, just ask them, well,what does it do?
They have no idea what they'retalking about.
They waste money, Matt's story.

(29:45):
They waste money.
Clearly.
It's the cycle of dumb that justkeeps going on.
Here's the deal.
The Department of Education isactually pretty simple.
It's a funding mechanism.
That's its starting point.
So when the government, theCongress allocates money for
schools, federal funding, whichthey need for special education,
for meals, it goes to the DOE.
It makes sense, right?

(30:05):
You would need an organizationYou know, Rand Paul's not going
to write a check to MurrietaValley, right?
It's got to go through the DOEbecause you need that.
That's great.
And they do a pretty good job ofit.
But they also do civil rightsinvestigations.
That includes predominantlydisability stuff.
That's huge, right?
I mean, there's tons of casesabout that.

(30:27):
What has ticked people off, Ibelieve, at least as far as I
understand, is they also do someinvestigations into LGBTQ stuff,
which is important.
That, for some reason, makespeople angry.
But I think the overarching,what they're trying to do is
dissolve, you know, publiceducation to a large degree
because the people that arepromoting are the same people

(30:49):
that are promoting like vouchersin other states, which is,
again, So dumb.
It's just giving money to richpeople.
Statistically speaking, that'sall it does.

SPEAKER_03 (30:57):
So what would be the risk of dissolving it?
And I think one of the potentialthings being thrown out is
basically putting it back in thestate's hands.
So taking the federal, puttingit back in the state's hands.
What would be the risks of that?

SPEAKER_01 (31:09):
Well, I mean, there's a lot of risks.
And I'll try to go into them.
Again, you still need somebodyto write states a check.
Because that's what happens.
The money doesn't go from theDepartment of Education into San
Diego Unified.
It goes into the Department ofEducation, to the California
Department of Education, then itgoes into San Diego Unified.
That's how it works.
So all you're doing, again, isgetting rid of this resource

(31:32):
that people have.
But it's also, sorry, I put myhand, not used to talking to
Mike, put my hand in front ofhim, I heard that.
But it's also getting rid of ahuge brain trust of people that
understand how this funding isworking, understand where it's
important to go, for the purposethat most people don't
understand.
And And so it's this mistrust ofthe Department of Education
that's entirely fake.

(31:52):
And it's going to result intoprobably a pretty significant
funding crisis where you havestates either A, not getting the
money they need, or B, gettingthe money they don't need.
If you look at the states thatare pushing this, they're the
lowest performing states in thecountry.
Oklahoma's last place.
They're pushing this.
They are last place in reading,writing, math.
Alabama, Louisiana, they're theworst states across the board

(32:14):
for standardized scores.
And they're the ones that arepushing you know in a lot of
ways getting rid of this and Ithink it's a huge mistake and
then the civil rights thing isreally close to my heart
sometimes the work that I can dothat attorneys like the grinders
that do is not enough we needinstitutional investigation we
need somebody to come in and goholy moly this entire school

(32:35):
district is abusing disabledkids that's what they do so it's
really important the work theydo and it's gotten lost in a lot
of you know whatever therhetoric with the rhetoric and
the nonsense that's going on andAnd just the level of mistrust
that people have towardsgovernment agencies.
So to me, again, I start off bysaying I think the mantra of

(32:56):
education should be we should bethe best that's ever existed.
That's the starting point.
We are going to create the bestpublic school system that's ever
existed.
We are going completely oppositeof that.
We are defunding schools.
Charter schools are great,right?
I don't like them because ofwhat they do.
It takes away public money in analready strained system.

(33:17):
and puts it in a place that'snot really, there's no benefit.
It's not any better.
The scores aren't better.
The stats aren't better.
The services aren't better.
Makes no sense.
Although I understand people'sfrustration, you know, and then
you look at other States doingvouchers, which is basically
giving parents money that theycould have used for public
school for private school, butthey're not going to be able to
afford the private schoolanyways.
So like think of, they did it inSouth Carolina, 93% of it all

(33:42):
went to rich people who are,whose kids were already in
private school.
You know what I mean?
So you get these scams that are,are kind of coming.
And my large concern is thatpublic education, the dissolving
of public education is going tohave just, I mean, unimaginable
consequences for the next coupleof generations.

SPEAKER_03 (33:58):
So my understanding is that, um, a lot of education
is done at the state level, butspecial education, a lot of that
is done at the DOE federal levelthrough IDEA, which is what
you've talked about, whichmandates the IEPs.
So, um, Any thoughts on that?
If we were to abolish the DOE,how that would affect IDEA and

(34:21):
the implementation of IEPs?

SPEAKER_01 (34:23):
Yeah, well, I mean, it won't.
So I don't even know.
The president can't dissolve theDOE, but Congress certainly can,
and they may.
Then there's the IDEA.
That's a federal statute.
The president couldn't do this.
Congress and the Senate wouldhave to do this.
I don't see that happening,although everything has been a
mystery to me of lately.

(34:43):
But assuming they dissolve theDOE, the federal legislation and
funding would still be there.
And so then they would have tocome up with some mechanism to
provide that funding to thestates.
But even with the DOE, we'reonly getting 13% of the funding.
We're missing 30% of the moneypromised.
So I would imagine that mightget worse because Congress, we

(35:06):
have the IDEA, but Congress isnever fully funding it.
And so that could get worse.
So states are going to get lessmoney because you don't have
this great organizationadvocating because that's one of
the things they've been doinggive us we need you need to give
us the money you're promisingwhich they never do and so we
would lose that and I can seethat funding resource go away
then you lose the civil rightsstuff you're going to have

(35:28):
larger institutional cases ofabuse for sure because the DOE
plays such a huge role in tryingto weed that out and I can
assure you you know as somebodywho's involved with a lot of
these cases you know this stuffthe stuff that you heard about
or if you didn't hear about it,you know, the
institutionalization of disabledchildren is absolutely still

(35:48):
going on.
The abuse of disabled childrenis absolutely still going on.
Just like it was in the 40s,50s, you know, when public
school really started comingaround until the 60s when we
started, you know, bringing themback into public school.
We're going to lose that.
And I don't, there's nothingthat can take that place.
You know, states aren't going toinvest in that.
Right?

SPEAKER_00 (36:06):
Well, and the reason that went away was because it
was detrimental.
It was clear that there wasabusive situations, right?
Whether institutions beingclosed down or things like a
regional centers here inCalifornia saying, bring your
family members back to yourcommunity.
Why do they need to go so faraway from home?
far away from their familieswhere the services could be
provided locally.

SPEAKER_01 (36:23):
One thing of all the stuff Regional Center is now
doing, what is the program rightnow where the kids are actually
staying in the home.
It's not the self-advocacyprogram.
Self-determination.
Self-determination.
All these great things that havebrought kids out of the fold,
out of the institutions, intothe community, and then cost
less over time and is better foreverybody involved.

SPEAKER_00 (36:44):
Giving the parent the power of the person, more
like a flexible spending accountand saying, I think this is what
my child needs, let me go findthe professionals that can do
this.
I'm

SPEAKER_01 (36:52):
super embarrassed.
I'm on the board of regionalcenter.

SPEAKER_00 (36:55):
We've been talking a lot.
We've been talking a lot.
All right.
So I'm going to open this up tohopefully what's going to pave
our way to, to, uh, to theclosing here.
Although we've got a few minutesleft, but we've got a lot of
time left.
I do have a, yeah, the studiowill be inhabited by other
people here soon.
But, uh, thinking about ABA andschools, ABA and educational
settings, uh, let me give it alittle bit of historical

(37:16):
context.
Um, something back to like theHughes bill, um, Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.

(37:49):
little to no flexibility attimes.
So as a behavior analyst, it's asuper challenge, very gratifying
when I can see some achievementor make some progress and also
just very, very difficult ingeneral and trying to work with
the teacher and the school staffand convince them that, you
know, this little scienceapproach that I have is going to
be a little bit more beneficialthan just the behavior

(38:11):
management techniques they'reusing.
That can be confrontational.
We're not always welcome, right?
It takes me months sometimes tofeel like I'm part of the fiber
on that campus and that setting.
That's anywhere fromadministration to the people in
the classroom.
It can be very isolating for thestudent.
It can be very isolating for me.
I've packed a lot.
I'll pass it over to you.

(38:32):
Tell us a little bit about yourexperience with ABA in schools.
Where can we do more?
Where should we do less?

SPEAKER_01 (38:37):
ABA, it used to be more common in the classroom.
Then a few years ago, teamsdidn't want them in there
anymore.
I think it was because they hada third set of eyes looking at
what they were doing.
To be frank, they becamewitnesses to what schools were
doing right and wrong.
And that irritated me.
And I don't mean witnesses in alitigation context, although
certainly that happened.
It was witnesses at an IEPmeeting.

(38:59):
You'd have an ABA person inthere at RBT and they're going,
hey, you guys are creating thisproblem or you're doing
something wrong.
And that challenge createdturmoil.
And then all of a sudden, Idon't know when, but it was
within the last 10 years, youjust saw like, nope, you're not
coming into schools anymore.
Because a lot of times schoolswill be like, what, your
insurance is paying for it?
Awesome.
Bring them on.
in right more support the betterand that stopped so aba can be a

(39:23):
really good thing for schoolsand a lot of parents want that
how do they do it you've got tostart off with assessments
you've got to start off withbeing able to show that the
student's not making anyprogress especially behaviorally
and that aba is going to be therequired mode of intervention
usually it's we're going to needa functional behavioral
assessment you guys know thatand that fba is going to have to

(39:45):
show that listen withoutsomebody who has this level of
training this will not work.
And so that's how we're able toget that in.
But it's usually a process thattakes time because districts
will provide a one-to-one aid ora SCIA, pretty untrained.
And if you're in San DiegoUnified, they'll say they have a
one-to-one aid, but they don't.
It's called supplementalsupport.

(40:06):
They know that.
It's not controversial.
If you have supplemental supporton your IEP, you most certainly
do not have a one-to-one aid.
You need to know

SPEAKER_03 (40:13):
that.
It's specifically not assignedto a student, right?
It's assigned to a classroom.

SPEAKER_00 (40:16):
That means there's extra support in the classroom
in the event And your childneeds it.
But yeah, they were alreadythere.
I worked with a

SPEAKER_01 (40:23):
family and there were 13 kids in a classroom.
All of them had like 24 hours ofsupplemental support on their
IEP.
And there was one aid in there.
We're like, well, that'simpossible.
We were able to get actuallyservices into the class.
So, but ABA plays a huge rolein, you know, obviously the
behavioral intervention of astudent on their IEP through a

(40:43):
behavioral intervention plan.
In order to get there, if youbelieve you need that level of
care, you must start off withassessments and you but on top
of that you have to show thatwhat the district's been doing
is not working so if you haveservices in your IEP right now
and you know it's not perfectprogress but you're seeing
progress probably not going tobe able to get ABA in however if

(41:03):
I'm able to show look over thelast two years or the last year
behavior's been the same you'vebeen providing supplemental
support or one donate we did anFBA it's going to have to be an
independent one and it showsthat this is needed we have a
higher likelihood of gettingthat ABA in the classroom it's a
tough fight I've actually foundthat getting ABA in a classroom
is tougher than getting it onpublic school.
For sure.

(41:24):
For sure.
And it can't be a cost issue.
So I don't know why that is.
But I've actually had a case, ohgosh, last month, where we
wanted the ABA in the class.
They offered us a non-publicschool.
Just for context, it wassubstantially more expensive.

SPEAKER_00 (41:40):
Yeah, that's a lot

SPEAKER_01 (41:41):
more.
You know, I mean, ABA, I don'tremember what it came to, but
they were just, they didn't tellme why.
I'm like, well, why?
And the parent definitely wantedit.
They were like, yes, give methat.
They knew the school.
It was TIEE, great school.
And they They were like, yes,give me that.
So I was like, are you sure?
Because we could do this.
And they were like, I mean, theyturned to, they did a 180 on me.
They're like, no, we want thenon-public school.
I'm like, okay.

(42:01):
So that's what we did.
And that was in lieu of the ABA,which I thought would have been,
I thought was better.
I actually kind of said, are yousure?
Because general educationenvironment, typical peers, all
this stuff.
And there was no talking.
There was no talking.
They were like, nope, this iswhat we've always wanted.
This was the ultimate goal.
Make the ultimate goal.
And so I had to do what myclients wanted.
And that's what happened.

(42:23):
But But it works really well.
It works really well.
I think it can becounterproductive to have an
untrained one-to-one aid in theIEP.
And I've most certainly seen aone-to-one aid come in and the
behaviors escalate.
We actually see that more oftenthan not.
Just because to do what you guysdo requires a significant amount
of training.

SPEAKER_00 (42:40):
Well, and to come in and see the behaviors escalate,
I mean, you really need somebodyto be able to speak to that.
So it's not unseen that we wouldcome in and apply certain
interventions.
And because we're hitting thefunction of the behavior, we see
a increase right but that's alsoour affirmation of the
consequent to say yeah that'sthat's our that's our
manipulation here experimentallyso we've just hit the correct

(43:01):
button so fear not it's going upbut we know what we're doing
when you see I've

SPEAKER_01 (43:06):
seen AIDS where they're just triggering the kid
for two years and the behaviorgets worse I'm sure you guys
have sure that's consistent tooand it's not the AIDS fault they
didn't know any better

SPEAKER_03 (43:14):
You know what I mean?
A lot of times, like in theexample you gave, it's just
easier to get rid of the kid,right?
Because then the kid's theproblem versus the teacher that
may be able to do somethingdifferently.
It's easier to just get rid ofthe kid and not have

SPEAKER_01 (43:23):
to.
That's what they always do at ayoung age.
That's why a lot of kids,especially kindergarten to like
third grade, they're pulled to aspecial education class.
And a lot of times parents arepromised, well, this has the
correct support, so we're goingto put them here as opposed to
providing that support in theclassroom.

SPEAKER_03 (43:36):
Which is challenging because like my partners talked
about that every year or evenless than a year, every bit that
that child is away from thecurriculum they're getting
farther away from the curriculumso there's that that chasm is
getting larger and larger soit's actually becoming harder to
get them back intogeneralization huge

SPEAKER_01 (43:52):
yeah I mean if you're looking if you're a
parent and your child is on theautism spectrum right and they
have pretty significantbehaviors but cognitively
they're pretty average I wouldbe very hesitant to pull them
out of a general ed setting anddo everything I can to keep them
in the tip because you'rebecause what's going to happen
is you're going to go into aspecial ed setting the
coursework is going to bemodified to far less than you
can do and then even if we getyour behaviors under control in

(44:15):
a year or two now you're threeyears behind all your other
peers which is by the way alsocreates behaviors you know and
sometimes you'll see aregression when we do that so
you got to be real cautiousdepending on what you're dealing
with before you startrestricting kids into special ed

SPEAKER_00 (44:28):
I don't think I'm trying to think in my career how
often it's probably less than ahandful of times that I've seen
a student go from a non-publiccampus back onto a comprehensive
campus so I mean that's a that'sa hard shift to your point as a
parent I think you need tounderstand that that once you go
on that direction that might bewhere you stay.
And it's just fine because ifthat's what your child, your

(44:49):
student needs, then great.
But I think that's somethingthat parents in my career failed
to understand.
It's going, you know, that isnot a comprehensive campus.
That is a more restrictivesetting.
However, that's what your childneeds.
Go for it.
Just know that the the, the movein the other direction.
I mean, I've maybe seen it five,four or five times.
I've seen it a

SPEAKER_01 (45:08):
little more than that, but yeah, it's the same
thing.
It's the end result.
There are some non-publicschools that just get it right.
And they serve more typicallydeveloping peers and the kids
don't have a lot of problems,but that social piece, man,
when, when, when a kid'senvironment has been so isolated
for so long, like getting beyondthat later in life becomes very
difficult.

(45:28):
And so parents rightly so arevery uncomfortable you know
because they're scared for theirchildren I get it you know but
sometimes you have to and thisisn't every kid you have to
think more about okay maybe myson or daughter needs to go
through this experience so thatthey can get a job someday and
function okay at that job youknow they can you know go to
college someday you know andfunction in college the social

(45:52):
isolation at some non-publicschools has been a huge issue
and you're right they don'toften come back they go there
but you know what usually theparent has been dealing with a
public school and they're soangry they don't care Because
the non-public school is like abreath of fresh

SPEAKER_00 (46:04):
air.
And they're going to handle it.
The non-public school is usuallygoing to handle everything.
Yes, to let you know whenthere's trouble, but they're
letting you know there's troublebecause they're taking care of
it, not because they're seekinga meeting to move your kid to a
more restrictive setting.
But

SPEAKER_01 (46:15):
why can't a public school do what a non-public
school does?
Because we see really good ones.
Now, a friend of mine who ownsone, this is probably
controversial, she says thereason we can do what public
schools do with less money isbecause we can fire people.
I don't...
That's that.
And by the way, this person, I'mnot going to throw them under
the bus.
They run probably one of thebest non-public schools.

(46:37):
And she says that consistently.
She goes, they fire fast at thisnon-public school.
If they don't fit, they're gone.
And because we can get rid ofpeople we don't think are
awesome, that becomes a problem.
And the cases that I've dealtwith, I mean, there are cases I
have where, I mean, these peoplehave been called out in a
decision for lying and they weregiven a promotion.
And so it's very difficult.

(46:59):
You guys know this, to get ridof bad actors and public
schools.
Teachers will tell you

SPEAKER_03 (47:04):
that.
My partner's principal over hertime there had multiple teachers
physically hit students and it'shard to even get them out.
It's just transferring.
It's so difficult.

SPEAKER_00 (47:16):
That is crazy.
Well, gentlemen, we've covered alot of ground.
You got some more stuff?
We got time.

SPEAKER_03 (47:20):
Just a couple of things.
Going back, we talked about theissues that you run into with
schools.
On the parent side of things,what are some things that you
would advise Did you see maybeparents calling and having a
misunderstanding?
You've talked about theCadillac.
Maybe the schools are requiredto provide a Honda Civic, not a
Cadillac.
What are some things you wouldadvise parents or you see a lot

(47:44):
on your end of parents expectingor calling you and you're like,
no.

SPEAKER_01 (47:49):
The two that I see a lot are going to, and I
mentioned this a little bitearlier, but to a small degree,
is a non-public school.
I think their child's entitledto a non-public school when
they're not, and they thinktheir child needs a one-to-one
aid when they don't.
Those are the two biggest onesby far and I mean and I've seen
that for years you know and youknow a non-public school is
basically there legally speakingyou're never going to get it

(48:10):
unless the student's been therejust need to know that but a
non-public school is there whenevery other service has not
worked in the school okay you'vetried general ed you've tried
special ed you've tried theone-to-one aid you know you've
tried all the programs thedistrict has then maybe you can
get the non-public school okaybut to be clear a court won't
put you there okay and then withthe one-to-one aid again that is

(48:31):
frustration parents believe thata one-to-one aid is a cure for
everything and it often is notand so to me the to resolve that
just as you would resolve theissue with the school's not
doing enough you bring it rightback you cycle it right back to
okay something's wrong you don'tknow the answer to that I don't
know the answer to that let's gobring in a professional to tell

(48:53):
us what's needed and that's thethat right there is the third
thing but the easiest fixableyou know I'm a lawyer I've been
doing this for a long time I Iteach this stuff.
I know what I'm talking about.
I didn't make the decision thatmy son needed speech services.
I knew enough to know somethingwas wrong, and I went out and
figured out the answer.
As a parent, you can knowsomething's wrong, but do not

(49:15):
rise or take this to the levelof you know the cure.
Go get the evidence you need,right?
That's going to make your case alot stronger, and it's going to
make your decision a lot better,right?
So if you believe your kid needsa one-to-one aid, or you believe
your, whatever it is, a readingprogram or speech, go get the
assessment.
And here's the deal.
If you do that, in the district,you get an IE.

(49:38):
And the IE gives you, this iswhat the district needs to do.
And they don't do it, then alawyer.
Because that makes my case athousand times easier.
Most of the time, a lawyer onthe other side is going to look
at the IE and go, okay.

SPEAKER_03 (49:50):
That was going to be my next question is, Wendy,
we've talked a little bit aboutadvocacy.
We've talked about requestingIEs.
When would you tell a parent tocontact a special education
attorney?

SPEAKER_01 (49:59):
Honestly, the starting point is, you know, if
you have any questions for thelawyers here in San Diego,
they're going to answer them.
But when a lawyer comes intoplay is when the district is not
doing something they should bedoing.
But remember that we have to beable to prove that they're not
doing that.
And if it's just you telling me,I can certainly look at the case
like a lack of progress.
You're telling me there's a lackof progress.
That's easy.
I can look at three IEPs and go,there's a lack of progress in

(50:20):
the

SPEAKER_02 (50:20):
problem.

SPEAKER_01 (50:21):
Honestly, that's fine.
But still, I'm still going toneed to figure out what the
student needs.
Because one of the things I hateis, okay, I see a lack of
progress for three years.
We sue a district.
They give us what's calledcompensatory education or money
for private tutoring.
The IEP is still there.
We got to fix that.
So we still have to answer thosetwo questions.
So if you're seeing a lack ofprogress like that, definitely a

(50:42):
lawyer.
But on top of that, if thedistrict is clearly not doing
something you think they shouldbe doing, probably time to get a
That is the dispute we're tryingto resolve.

SPEAKER_03 (50:52):
Okay.
So IE is really important.
Looking at the progress thing ontop of that, if you're not able
to really get on top of that, itmight be a good time.
You also talked about services.
The last thing that I wanted tobring up and ask you to speak on
a little bit is one of myfavorite handouts that I would
give to my parents and my parentgroups is your IEP handbook

(51:14):
pocketbook.
Oh, yeah.
Kind of IEPs for dummies, forlack of a better term.
It was a really well-writtendocument.
I don't know if you want to saywhere they can find it, but also
maybe if you could just give acouple of bangers or a couple.
I know you mentioned the audiorecordings, the 30 days.

SPEAKER_01 (51:30):
You're taking all the good ones.
Things

SPEAKER_03 (51:31):
like that.
If you want to mention a coupleof the bangers and where they
can find it, iCamber.
recommend this resource enough?

SPEAKER_01 (51:36):
So we give those out for free.
You can just email my office.
It's info at calsped.com andwe'll send you a bunch.
We send them to all kinds ofplaces and we have them in
English and Spanish.
And it's basically just ashortened version of the
procedural safeguards.
And you know, it illustrates youcan audio record an IEP.
You ask for an IEP, they have tohold it in 30 days.
If they ask for an assessment,they have to give you an

(51:58):
assessment plan in 15 days.
They have to complete theassessments in 60 days.
You have the right to requestindependent educational
evaluations You have the rightto disagree with an IEP.
You have the right to file dueprocess.
There's 15 in there that I'msure I'm missing, but those are
the main ones that people don'tunderstand.
You can call an IEP as manytimes as you want.
I know a parent that calls one,two, or three times minimum a

(52:18):
year.
They have to do it.
There's no maximum limit here.
And if you're having issues, youknow, any parent, I would tell
them, if you're having issueswith the IEP team, call an IEP
meeting first.
Go sit down, express thoseissues, audio record the
meeting, and then go from there.
That's the starting point.
Parents that only have annualIEPs meetings, but they're
frustrated with the process,they're doing it wrong.

SPEAKER_03 (52:39):
Yeah, I would tell a lot of my parents to, if there's
a change or they're not seeingprogress, and a lot of times IEP
would be like in the spring orApril or May.
And what would happen is theywould get to April or May and
the child wouldn't haveprogress.
And they're like, oh, well,we'll try again next year.
It's like, well, you've lost thewhole year.
Maybe request an IEP in October,November, December, so that you
can see where they're at.
So you don't get to the end ofthe year.

(53:00):
And then you're like, well,we'll try again next year.
Well, what happened to thisyear?

SPEAKER_01 (53:02):
Yeah, absolutely.
I mean, even with my son, we hadseveral times a year, we'd have
an IEP.
And you can also ask for anearly triennial.
So the district's required toassess every three years.
But if you feel like nobody'shaving an answer to your
problem, instead of going IEEs,you could go, well, let's do an
early triennial.
So instead of doing it nextyear, we're going to do it this
year, something like that.
So just repeating those requestsfor assessments to try to get
the answers.

(53:23):
I think the underlying all ofthis is you need to be informed.
And the question is how to getinformed.
And so you do this by goingthrough, okay, something's
wrong.
I don't see progress.
I don't know what to do becauseI'm not a reading specialist.
So I'm going to call an IEP,meaning I'm going to ask.
If I don't like the answer tothat, okay, maybe I'm going to
go through the assessmentprocess.
Okay, I don't like theassessments they did.

(53:44):
Now I'm going to go through theindependent assessment process.
At one of those junctures rightthere, you're going to get the
answer of what's needed.
And then the question is, doesthe district do those services
that you're requesting, whateverit is, or do they not?
The point at what they do not orwhen they do not, that's when a
lawyer comes into play.

SPEAKER_03 (54:02):
And if somebody, and no way do we do this as an
advertisement, but if somebodydoes want to reach out to you,
how would they get in touch withyou for legal representation?

SPEAKER_01 (54:10):
There are two ways to get in touch with me.
You can just call my office,which is 858-433-1060.
I had to think about that.

SPEAKER_00 (54:17):
You got to call yourself some more.
Yeah, I know.
Remember that number.
I can never do.
Can you say that again?
Say it again, please.

SPEAKER_01 (54:22):
Yeah, sure.
Sorry.
It's 858-433-1060.
433-1060, or you can just emailus.
And it's info at calsped.com.
It's just info at calsped.com.
Right on.
Yeah.
And call a bunch of attorneys bythe way.
I'm going to shout out to mypeople here that do this work.
You should interview a couple.
I usually do that with parents.

(54:43):
Like, you know, you may not likeme, right?
That's okay.
We have good attorneys here inSan Diego.
So if you just Google specialeducation attorney San Diego,
there's some really great peopleon there.
so interview a few see who youlike

SPEAKER_00 (54:57):
well gentlemen we uh sped through an entire two hours
without even yeah it's been twohours i know that's what happens
here we just get sucked up intothe aba vortex so uh matt thank
you so much for all theinformation on uh this is parent
behavior and teacher behavior wetalked about today but certainly
advocacy and how to stay up todate with your child's iep and
what's going on with them atschool and then if it's not

(55:18):
going well who to call and whatresources to seek i get the
feeling we're going to see mrstory back here at some point
I'd love to be

SPEAKER_01 (55:24):
here again.
And then crack one of thosethings open because he
legitimately has a great bourboncollection.

SPEAKER_00 (55:30):
Which, Dan, here we go.
Are we doing this?
Okay, so we always like tosay...
So, Dan, you've got to do thewrap-up again here.
So keep up with your child's IEPand look at their progress.
Request as many IEPs as youthink are necessary throughout
the year to check in on yourchild's progress.
Support your school staff and...

SPEAKER_03 (55:47):
Always analyze responsibly.
Cheers.
All

SPEAKER_00 (55:51):
right.

SPEAKER_03 (55:51):
Thanks.

SPEAKER_01 (55:51):
Thanks,

SPEAKER_00 (55:53):
guys.
ABA on Tap is recorded live andunfiltered.
We're done for today.
You don't have to go home, butyou can't stay here.
See you next time.

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