Motivation, Movement, and Mindset: With Dr. Mallory Quinn, Part I

Episode Transcript
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SPEAKER_02 (00:10):
Welcome to ABA on TAC, where our goal is to find
the best recipe to brew thesmoothest, coldest, and best
tasting ABA around.
I'm Dan Lowry with Mike Rubio,and join us on our journey as we
look back into the ingredientsto form the best concoction of
ABA on tack.

(00:32):
In this podcast, we will talkabout the history of the ABA
brew, how much to consume toachieve the optimum buzz while
not getting too drunk, and therecommended pairings to bring to
the table.
So without further ado, sitback, relax, and always analyze
responsibly.
All right, all right.

SPEAKER_05 (00:52):
Welcome back to yet another installment of ABA on
tap.
I am your ever grateful co-host,Mike Rubio, along with my
esteemed partner, Mr.
Dan Lowry.
Dan, how are you doing today,man?

SPEAKER_03 (01:04):
Doing great, doing great.
Learn I'm gonna learn how todance today.
Is that what we're talkingabout?

SPEAKER_05 (01:08):
If that's possible, can you can you learn how to
dance?
Are you teachable?
Is the idea?
Anybody can do it.
If anybody can teach Dan how todance, the Doctor of Dance
today.
We have the official Doctor ofDance and ABA, the dance-ABA
combination.
Uh, really, really happy tocontinue with our series and
interviewing uh professionalswho are taking ABA outside of

(01:31):
the autism treatment realm,which I think is very exciting.
And uh our guest today is doingthat indeed.
So without further ado, I'd liketo introduce Dr.
Mallory Quinn.
Dr.
Mallory, how you doing?

SPEAKER_00 (01:52):
I'm doing well.
Thanks so much for having me.

SPEAKER_05 (01:54):
Fresh off the coal plunge.
You've already worked out thismorning.
I mean, you're good to go.
You are ready for us.
Two hours of discussion, and wegot to make the dance ABA link,
which has never been done on ABAon tap ever before, or any ABA
podcast.
I'm gonna go out on a limb andsay that.
We're gonna be the first to dothe dance ABA connection.
Uh, we're really, really uhgrateful for your time.

(02:17):
Uh really appreciate youaccommodating our recording
schedule.
We like to do it on Sundaymornings, afternoons.
We're gonna get you back to youruh nice Tampa uh sun soon, we
hope.
Uh if it if it stops raining.
Uh, but we like to start fromthe very beginning and go to the
origin story.
Some everybody somewhere hasthat past in the autism
intervention and then maybe youknow goes off and takes an

(02:40):
offshoot, it takes a differentroad, and I think that's where
you're coming from.
So if you don't mind, take usback to the beginning.
Let us know about all yourexperiences and bring us to the
current day and and what you dowith ABA because it's all very
exciting.
So go right ahead.

SPEAKER_00 (02:54):
Sure.
Okay.
This is gonna be a long one.
Um please, we're we're here tolisten.

SPEAKER_05 (02:58):
Please take your time.

SPEAKER_00 (03:00):
All right.
So um I grew up in Tampa.
I've been a performer since Iwas literally like two years
old.
Um, I grew up dancing.
I ended up shifting to musicaltheater once I was in middle
school.
I went to a performing arts highschool.
It's actually a relativelywell-known high school.

(03:22):
Doce just came from there.
If you guys know Dochi, I don'tknow.

SPEAKER_03 (03:26):
But um We lived 10 years ago again.

SPEAKER_05 (03:29):
Um I bet your kids would know him.
Yeah, I'll I'll have I'll ask myteenagers.

SPEAKER_00 (03:36):
She just won the Grammy for uh best uh female rap
artist, so yeah.
Okay.
Um yeah, it's probably why youguys don't know him.

SPEAKER_03 (03:45):
Oh man.

SPEAKER_05 (03:46):
Age, genre, yeah.
You've kind of yeah, okay,continue.

SPEAKER_03 (03:49):
His son's in a band, so it's he'd probably know.

SPEAKER_00 (03:53):
So uh went to a performing arts high school.
It's always been a huge part ofmy life.
Uh dancing musical theater,started teaching dance at a
young age as well and fitnessclasses and things of that
nature.
And then um, once I startedschool, I was majoring in
psychology.
I was always very interested inbehavior and why people do what

(04:15):
they do.
I think that's actually a commonthing for artists and um actors
and things of that nature, is aninterest in human behavior and
learning about that.
So um I found ABA really earlyon.
Luckily, I was 18 years old andI started in the field at 18
while also teaching dance andteaching fitness and things of

(04:35):
that nature.
And then I was just at the rightplace and the right time.
I would say I was at USF, whichended up having a really amazing
ABA program.
And I met with Dr.
Miltenberger, who was myincredible mentor very early on
when I was 18.
And um I told him that I wasinterested in learning about

(04:56):
behavior analysis with uh dance.
At the time, I was looking atlike art therapy, was what I was
looking at, and he was veryopen-minded.
He did not shut me down, but heexplained to me how there were
routes that I could go that weremore scientific where I could
still integrate into the artsand things of that nature and

(05:18):
kind of explained thedifferences for me.
So uh started grad school underhis mentorship and did a lot of
research with ABA and danceinstruction.
So we looked at different typesof antecedent manipulation,
consequence manipulation.
Uh, for my dissertation, we tookit a step further.

(05:41):
I ended up writing andpublishing a manual and training
dance instructors to do theinterventions themselves versus
just me as an analyst going inand doing it.
So that was my track throughoutgrad school.
And then, sorry, I told you guysthis is gonna be a long story.

SPEAKER_05 (05:58):
So we're we're intrigued.
I got my notes already writtendown.
Oh, he's already got like 12questions.
I continue.

SPEAKER_00 (06:04):
Yeah.
So then while I was in gradschool, I was working at a lot
of these places, and a lot ofthese dance instructors were
like, this stuff is really cool.
It's really uh helpful.
We see the effects of it, we seethe growth of the dancers.
Like, you should make a businessdoing this.
And I was never I never thoughtabout having a business or

(06:26):
having a PhD.
Those were just things I neverthought about.
But um, so I was like, you know,it's either me that's gonna make
this business or someone else isgonna make this business off my
work.
So I decided um at 26 years oldthat I was gonna start my
consultation company.
Uh, we were the first companythat I know of in ABA and health
sports and fitness.

(06:47):
That was back in 2016.
And um, I ended up opening abrick and mortar fitness studio
where we had yoga, bar, uh hitclasses, cardio classes, and
then also a dance studio rightnext door where we had dance for
kids.
We we are a non-competitiondance studio.

(07:08):
A lot of my research centersaround kind of the negative
effects of dance competition andusing ABA to help mitigate that.
So um I have a dance studio forkids.
I also see competition dancersfrom other studios for
therapeutic services.
We also have a therapeutic lineof services for kids with

(07:30):
special needs.
Um, we're now in year six of thedance studio.
Um, we have over 150 kids.
It's very successful, lots oftherapy clients.
I have a full-time therapist andmanager on staff who's an RBT.
And um yeah, I've also shifted alittle bit more in my journey

(07:51):
into the wellness area as well.
Um, I had a lot of health issuesafter graduate school just from
the nature of um that kind ofhustle, stressful life.
And then going right from thatinto being a business owner of
three businesses during COVIDwas very, very stressful.

(08:13):
Yeah.
And I ended up having a lot ofhealth issues.
And um, a couple of years ago, Ireally shifted my life
completely as far as um managingmy stress and what I do day to
day, a lot of holistic thingsthat we were talking about
before we started.
Um so now I work a lot in thehealth space as well.

(08:35):
I coach women, BCBAentrepreneurs who are starting
their own businesses outside ofABA and autism.
I work with them a lot onreducing burnout, setting their
business up in a way that theyuh can live a life that's more
enjoyable and values-based andless just focused on that grind
and hustle.
So, yeah, I do supervision aswell.

(08:57):
I have an online school, quite abit of stuff, quite a bit of
stuff going on.
But just let me know what youguys are interested in and I can
talk about that.

SPEAKER_03 (09:06):
Yeah.
Wow, that's a lot.
First of all, congratulations onyou said 150 uh people in your
dance program.

SPEAKER_00 (09:14):
Thank you.
Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (09:15):
It's amazing.
It's exciting.

SPEAKER_00 (09:16):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 (09:17):
Well, we've got a ton of questions after all that.
We do.
That's for sure.

SPEAKER_00 (09:21):
Okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 (09:22):
I guess I'll I'll start off with um I mean it
sounds perfect when you thinkabout something like dance.
Uh I I won't call myself amusician, but I like to play
instruments.
Uh, and I'm not formallytrained, right?
So um something like ABA couldbe very useful, say, in formal
training for a musician in termsof you know, road practice,

(09:43):
these things that are gonnabuild your technique and and
your chops.
And then having played from theother end of things, I know
plenty of very skilled musicianswho know how to read music, but
they don't exactly hit thatfeel.
So they play really precisely,but they don't sound great.
I guess first question would behow do you mitigate that?
Because I can see that beingpart of your dance instruction

(10:05):
where the ABA part is prettygood at the precision part and
and getting people to um youknow repetitively practice
certain things to really hit themark on something, and then you
still have to hopefully helpsomebody become a good dancer.
What's the yeah, what's thewhat's the fine line there?
What what's your secret?

SPEAKER_00 (10:24):
Yeah, well, that's that's a great point because a
lot the research that Ipublished in like improving
dance skills is very justacquisition-based, right?
And there are certain thingsthat are kind of a hybrid of
like artistry and athleticism.
Dance is one of those, verywell, music, things of that

(10:45):
nature.
Um, so yeah, you hit the nail onthe head.
Most of most ABA really just uhaddresses the skill acquisition
component.
Uh, but what I will say is thatI integrate act coaching with
every dancer that I work withone-on-one, as well as every
woman business owner I workwith, every supervisee.

(11:06):
So that's one thing is like Iwork with different populations
of people, but I use the sameconcepts with all of them.
So um act coaching really doesget into values work.
And if you think about a dancerwho um maybe has great skill but
has trouble connecting, if youreally were to work with them on

(11:27):
a deeper level of why theydance, so looking at values, um,
you know, these different areasof the hexaflex and act, present
moment awareness, right?
If they learn to really connectwith the music more and really
listen to the music and askthemselves why they're dancing
and breathe with the things thatthey're doing, right?
That has to do with presentmoment awareness.
Um, that's going to enhancetheir artistry.

(11:49):
So a lot of the artistrycomponents are addressed in that
act coaching, which is reallynice.
It's a nice little package.

SPEAKER_03 (11:57):
And can you speak to that a little?
I mean, I guess you did with thebeing present um without giving
away any of your secrets.
Can you speak to some of thespecific so act is acceptance
commitment therapy?
Is that I get that correct?
Um, we've had a couple peoplecome and speak to that, and I
think Mike and I definitelyresonate with that premise a
lot.
But can you speak to maybe somespecifics from the uh ACT um

(12:18):
strategies that you utilize?

SPEAKER_00 (12:20):
Sure, yeah.
So in ACT or ACT, there'sdifferent areas of this
hexaflex.
Um, there are differentprocesses that contribute to
psychological flexibility.
And the idea is that the morethat you work on these different
processes in tandem, the morepsychologically flexible you
are, or the more uh you're ableto adapt to ever-changing

(12:42):
environments, situations, thosekinds of things.
So, one way that I utilize thata lot in my work is if I have a
competition dancer who's workingwith me in therapy from another
studio, maybe for something likeaudition anxiety.
Um auditions can be veryanxiety-producing because you
can't control the situation,right?

(13:04):
Um, so a lot of these things inthe act hexaflex can help that
specific client.
For example, let's just look atacceptance, right?
Acceptance is one part of theact hexaflex, and that has to do
with um accepting what ishappening and really letting go
of that need to control or umhold things so tightly, right?

(13:26):
So maybe they're in an auditionand they have a thought of like,
I'm not gonna get the role thatI want, I'm not a good enough
dancer.
One act of acceptance would beto notice and name that thought
as just a thought and not holdon so tightly to it that it lets
it affect their performance.
So that's just a really smallfraction example of something,

(13:48):
one part of the hexaflex that Imight use with a dancer who
comes for that kind of coaching.
Okay.

SPEAKER_03 (13:55):
What one more question?
Before I interrupted youearlier.
Um the hexaflex, I've I have notheard of that before.
Is that representing the sixlike Yes?
What can what what are those ifyou can speak to them at all?
I've never heard we've had likefour or five people bring up act
and nobody's mentioned thehexaflex that I'm aware of.
So can you speak to it?

SPEAKER_00 (14:13):
Yeah, it's just like a little shape and it has like
the different processes in it.
Um, let me see if I can rememberthem all um without cheating.
Okay, you can but um likecontact with the present moment
is one.
So again, if we're working witha dancer, the more that we can
help them be in the here andnow, the more they're able to

(14:33):
connect with the music andconnect with their body, right?
Um, values is why you're doingsomething, right?
Uh it can also help dancers alot because when we're in
competitive settings, they'revery goal-focused.
And being goal-focused can leadto a lot of disappointment
because there's always going tobe a best dancer and everyone

(14:56):
else, right?
Or the person that gets the roleand everyone else.
And oftentimes we're not thebest dancer in the room or we're
not the best performer in theroom.
So if you can work with athletesand help them be values focused
versus goal focused, um, theycan have a lot more pride and
happiness in what they do,right?

(15:17):
Because maybe their value is I'mgoing to show up to this
audition and be brave because Iwant to be a better dancer.
And every audition that I go to,I'm growing as an artist.
That's a value versus a goal.
I'm going to go to thisaudition.
We had Lion King auditions at mystudio.
So I'm going to use a lot ofLion King references, but I'm
going to go to this audition andI want to get Simba.

(15:37):
And if I don't get Simba, I mustsuck, right?
That's that's kind of where thegoal thinking can go.
Um, so values is reallyimportant.
Um, what else do we have?
I said contact with the presentmoment, right?

SPEAKER_01 (15:53):
Yep.

SPEAKER_00 (15:54):
We have um diffusion.
So diffusion is being able tosee your thoughts as just
thoughts, stepping back fromthem, or we call it unhooking an
act.
So again, maybe a negativethought comes up and you the
client learns these differentcoping skills or practices that
they can implement when thatthought comes up.

(16:14):
So it doesn't affect theirbehavior as much.
Um, we've got self as context.
That's a little bit of a moredifficult concept, but basically
self as context has to do withbeing able to step outside of
your mind or yourself and seethat there's a greater thing
happening.
So for a dancer, self as contextwork, a lot of it has to do with

(16:38):
helping them learn that they aremore than just a dancer, right?
So there it's a little bit,that's the little bit woo-woo
one of the exoflex.
Sometimes behavior analysts arelike, uh, I don't know about
that.
Because it has like a little, alittle connotation of like
spirituality to it, of like,there's a little bit more than

(16:58):
just you and your mind, there'smore than that kind of thing.
Um gosh, what else do we have?
Acceptance.
Okay.
So being able to accept thethings that happen to us.
So uh one tenet of ACT is thatwhen it comes to psychological
suffering as humans, a lot ofthat isn't what happens to us,
it's how we react to it, right?

(17:20):
So our expectations, what we dowith that.
Okay.
One more you guys are stressingme out because I'm trying to
remember all the time.

SPEAKER_03 (17:28):
I I pulled it up um if it helps, because I'd never
heard of it.
So you said acceptance, there'sacceptance, committed action,
values, self as context, beingpresent, and cognitive
diffusion.

SPEAKER_00 (17:41):
I think you've got to do that.
Oh, yes, okay.
So I called it diffusion insteadof cognitive diffusion.
Okay, cool, cool.
Yeah, so that's just a littlebit of an example of how we
could use all of those processeswith a dancer.
Um, and as you guys can probablythink about, like uh because I
work a lot with business owners,like all of those concepts apply

(18:02):
to business owners too, ofthings that can hold them back
in starting their business.

SPEAKER_05 (18:07):
So these um constructs uh perhaps are a
little bit less quantifiablethan our usual procedures and
protocols in ABA.
Tell us a little bit about howthat pans out.
So you just kind of walk peoplethrough these exercises that are
more act-related.
You're not necessarily takingdata on this, or what what's uh
I guess what's what's the markthat you're trying to hit in

(18:29):
terms of uh realizing thatsomebody may have cognitively
diffused or may have reachedacceptance.
How do you determine that?

SPEAKER_00 (18:36):
Sure.
Yeah, the data definitely isit's just a little bit
different, I would say.
It's not that there isn't data,it's just collected in a
different way.
So we do um sometimes we do likeintensity rating scales um of so
like what I like to do when I doassessments is I have questions
that address different areas ofthe hexaflex, and I have them do

(18:58):
like Liker rating scales of likethoughts that that relate to the
subject that we're talking aboutfrom the different areas of the
hexaflex, and I measure it isself-report because right, we we
don't have a way to measure Ohmy goodness.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 (19:13):
Qualitative measures?
Oh goodness, Dr.
Malie.

SPEAKER_00 (19:17):
Yeah, you can look at um those measures before and
after.
Uh one thing I love to collectdata on is like a percentage of
opportunities as far as like acoping skill.
So I might teach a client acoping skill in a session, and
then I will teach them when Iwant them to use that coping
skill.
And then something we cancollect data on is like, okay,

(19:38):
they went to an audition, right?
The trigger was present, theopportunity was present.
Did they implement the copingskill?
What happened after those kindsof things?
Um, we can use BST when we teachthe coping skill.
So I write out very detailed andlength in my behavior
intervention plans how I'm goingto teach each of these skills.

(19:58):
So you have a task analysis, youhave this kind of breakdown.
Um, but there are a lot ofthings in ACT that are very
database.
It's just different fromstandard ABA in that sense.
So it just requires like, again,this is where that supervision
comp component comes in.
You learn all these things insupervision, like all these
different ways that you cancollect data.

(20:20):
But something that I I like totalk about that is like a kind
of a it makes peopleuncomfortable.
But as someone that worksoutside of ABA and autism,
full-time behavior analyst inthis space for 10 plus years, I
can tell you guys that a lot ofour clients like really don't
care about BIPs and like thatthe data that we value so

(20:45):
highly.
And I know that's a verycontroversial thing to say.
And I'm sorry for everyone thatthat makes uncomfy, but they
really don't.
They just want to see thechange.
Like they just they just want tosee, like, oh my gosh, my kid
went on stage and didn't have apanic attack.
My kid went to an audition andlike did really well.
I feel like a lot of times thedata is like insurance

(21:08):
motivated, and I don't, I don'twork with insurance.
So I'm not saying that I don't,I don't care about data as a
behavior analyst.
Of course, like I have a PhD inABA.
I love data, I love research, Ilove all the things, but my
parents that I work with, theydon't they just really don't
care about it.

SPEAKER_05 (21:25):
They don't we appreciate that statement very
much on ABA on tap.
In fact, it's our plightcurrently is still providing
autism treatment um to try andposit data.
Um, we work a lot with our RBTs,with you know the younger
professionals in terms of tryingto capture what the data's for,
the idea of sampling data.

(21:46):
I don't need you to recreate theentire session and data points
for me because if you do that,that means you spent less time
with the client than I wantedyou to spend.
Because your focus is on thedata points.
Uh so yeah, no, we we reallyappreciate that, and it's
something that we arecontinually trying to figure out
how to do better.
The idea that I want to capturea quick snapshot of these things

(22:07):
happening behaviorally, and thenwe want to spend a lot more time
teaching and interacting andengaging and building those
skills.
We like to say in ABA, uh,traditionally we love to plant a
seed and then we start measuringthe sprout even though there's
just dirt in the pot.
We like to we like to wait untilwe see a sprout and then we
start measuring.

SPEAKER_03 (22:26):
So are you trying to say that it's it's okay for her
to not do 10 consecutive dancerecitals over 80% of
opportunities across threedifferent sessions to get
incredible data?
Right, right.
Is that what you're saying?
Is that idea?
She has to do 10.

SPEAKER_05 (22:40):
And then she has to exit her clients out of her
dance studio, right?
You can't come in my dancestudio anymore.

SPEAKER_00 (22:45):
Yeah, like I I still write beautiful BIPs and FBAs,
but honestly, it's mainly forlike my supervisees so they can
see like how I collect data andthings of that nature.
The again, the parents don'tcare.
Like, I send it to them, I theydon't, they don't read it, they
don't want to read it.
They just love to see the changethat's happening in their child
and they get they get what I'mdoing because I talk to them

(23:08):
about it and they get the point,and their kids talk to them
about it.
And I'm like, hey, these arethings I want you to do at home
to reinforce the work that we'redoing here.
And again, just like thatexample we talked about, like
the goals versus values.
It could be something reallysimple of like, when your kid
comes home from rehearsal, howcan I, you know, I'll talk to
the parent about values.

(23:29):
What's a values-based statementyou can say versus did you get
your triple pirouette?
Did you get the, you know, evensomething like that.
We're gonna focus onprocess-oriented language versus
goal-based language.
Like just it's simple.
And that's again, it's acontroversial take, but that's
in my opinion, a mistake that Isee a lot of businesses that are

(23:50):
outside of ABA and autism.
And I'm I'm going to speak onthis because I've had a very
successful, profitable businessin ABA outside of autism for 10
years.
And I think a big mistake a lotof people make is they're
marketing to other behavioranalysts and they're not
marketing to the clients, ifthat makes sense.

SPEAKER_03 (24:07):
Yeah, it does.
So you brought up the concept oflike a pirouette or different
dance moves.
Um, do you feel like because anABA, like you've talked about,
Mike, sometimes we get so taskanalyzed that we might teach all
of the different dance steps,but then never really put them,
and I guess this is kind of whatyou were asking earlier, never
put them together in anythingthat makes sense.

(24:28):
So there's an importance ofbeing able to teach every dance
move because you might have todo that within a choreograph
scene or whatever.
But if all I ever do is teachthem out of context, then you
haven't you just have theseanecdotal dance moves.
Um do you have any thoughts onthat?
Um, in terms of maybe whetherit's top-down or bottom-up or
just like the over-taskanalyzation of of how we present

(24:49):
a lot of things, and maybe youdon't because you're not in the
A ABA ASD field that we are overtask analyzing things.

SPEAKER_05 (24:56):
I guess one way that or one way to ask your question
is how do you measure mastery,right?
That might be a way to considerit.
That was literally and again, uhand balancing that with
artistry, uh, you've given us areally good insight.
So I'm really curious to hearyour your perspective on this.
But yeah, that's the qualitativepiece you're describing, I
think, is is is capturingsomething that we oftentimes

(25:16):
miss in ABA because we're sofocused on the quantification.
And then artistry is all aboutquality, right?
Mastery in terms of a beautifuluh dance move or or or some
choreography, much more of thatis gonna be qualitative in
nature, but there's quantifiablemoves within every of that.
Yeah.
Speak a little bit more to thatbalance.

(25:36):
How do you how do you look at aclient and go, yep, you've
mastered this move or this danceor whatever it is?
That that yeah, that that'sinteresting.
How do you do that?

SPEAKER_00 (25:44):
Yeah.
Um, something I try to do withinmy dance studio to make it more
ABA based than a typical dancestudio is um we have very
specific like level placement umoutcomes that they have to meet
before leveling up or down.
So I would say that's oneexample.

SPEAKER_01 (26:02):
Okay.

SPEAKER_00 (26:02):
Um we have a very clear like checklist, like you
have to be able to do thesecomponents of these different
movements in order to move upand down.
Um, again, back to that dataanalysis.
It's really only something youcan do in private lessons.
It's it's very hard to implementum in a dance class, but some
ways that we do implement ABAinto dance classes.

(26:24):
Um, for example, last year wedid a whole semester in one
class of the good behavior game.
Um, we implement behavioraltraining for our teachers.
So all of our teachers have likea base knowledge of ABA, um,
what to do if a child withspecial needs, you know, if
these kinds of things happen inyour class, um, what to do if a

(26:44):
child runs out of class crying,um, how you can integrate
values-based work, um, thosekinds of things.
So we do like specializedtraining for our instructors as
well.
Um, but yeah, again, a lot ofthe beautiful things that I
publish in research, I reallyjust sprinkle them into the

(27:05):
day-to-day.
I don't sit there with a taskanalysis and like like I did in
research and go through everystep with the student because
again, people wouldn't it itwouldn't be profitable and
enjoyable that way.
Um, I would again, I would justbe doing that that's just me
being a behavior analyst.

(27:26):
And again, like I see a lot asthe marketing to behavior
analysts and not focus, it's notclient focused.

SPEAKER_03 (27:33):
So that enjoyable piece, I know we've talked about
it, right?
We've taken games and my turnnow.
You say your turn now, do youtake the turn?
Now you say my turn now, and itjust it it loses the the total
enjoyment.
Yeah, um you say something thatI think is really um relevant to
what you've been talking about,um, Mallory, is that so you talk

(27:53):
about kind of going in in andout of the research, that you've
done the research and you knowwhere that comes from and you
have that basis, but you don'tneed to continue to reprove the
research.
Um and like you said, right?
Skinner and Lovos, they did theresearch.
So we know reinforcement works.
We know these strategies work.
We don't have to constantlyre-prove it with every client in
every session that theseprocesses work.

(28:14):
They work, so let's just usethem and get the outcomes that
we want rather than have to tryto set it up in the same exact
lab-oriented way into somebody'sliving room or into a dance
studio that is in the Skinnerlab or the Lovas lab.
Like it works.
We don't have to continue to dothat.
I think you've talked a lotabout that.

SPEAKER_05 (28:31):
Well, it's the idea of experimental control, right?
And I think that it is, and andand you know this, uh Mallory,
but uh the notion that that allour training in terms of
empirically validated researchtakes a great deal of
experimental control.
We talk about instructionalcontrol, and then to to Dan's
point or the greater point here,well, we a lot of these things
we don't do under experimentalcontrol.

(28:52):
We don't do it in a laboratorysetting.
So we have to count on theempirical validation with a
certain margin of error, realizethat we're taking that margin of
error and increasing it becausewe're taking it out of a certain
amount of control, and then wedo our best.
And I think you're capturingthat qualitative piece very
nicely, and it's cool thatyou're doing dance and things
like that that do require a bitmore of an artistry, which is

(29:14):
much more qualitative in nature,but it is built upon these very
quantifiable moves.
Uh that's really neat.
That's a good combination.
I think there's a lot to learnfrom that uh in terms of autism
treatment.
The idea that oftentimes whatDan was explaining, uh, we're
creating these uh play scenarioswith kids, for example, but our
task analysis gets the best ofus, and all of a sudden we're

(29:36):
trying to impose or employ thisvision of this behavior that
we've already uh you knowpreemptively planned on, and and
kids are doing somethingdifferent, and they're doing a
lot of things that would bedifferentially reinforceable or
correct toward whatever targetbehavior, but because we already
have this one track mind of whatit's supposed to look like,
we're offering corrections ininstead of shaping.

(29:59):
So you must do.
A lot of shaping anddifferential reinforcement
through.
I mean, that's that's basicallyall you're doing.
And tell us a little bit aboutwhat that might look like or
sound like in terms of um.
So I I I think you you probablyuse uh tag teaching a little
bit, and you I know you try tosprinkle it.
Yeah, you've done a little bitof uh I think some of your
research has looked at um, Iguess some coercive aspects of

(30:21):
teaching or other ways that thatuh people more naturally resort
into teaching.
Will you talk a little bit aboutthat?
Uh sort of the importance ofshaping and differential
reinforcement as you work towardartistry and how tag teaching
and and uh being mindful of ofcoercive parameters is is
helpful to you in yourday-to-day.

SPEAKER_00 (30:40):
Yeah.
Um, so like I said, I I seequite a bit of therapy clients
from outside studios who come tome because they have audition
anxiety or performance anxiety.
And um I don't really get on asoapbox and explain to the
parents where that comes frombecause it's not, again, this is

(31:02):
this is like all aligned withwhat we're talking about.
Um, it's I could do that as abehavior analyst, but that's not
helping my client, because thenthey just won't work with me,
right?
It's not helping my business,all those kinds of things.
So um what I do in my one-to-onesessions with the dancers is is

(31:22):
I work a lot with, again, thesepsychological flexibility
components, right?
Because I can't control theenvironment that they're
training in.
If these teachers are yelling atthem, they're yelling at them.
If their parents are puttingpressure on them, their parents
are putting pressure on them.
But what I can teach that childto do is to be more
psychologically flexible and tobe able to respond to those

(31:43):
things in a way that theyhopefully won't have that same
audition anxiety or performanceanxiety.
And I could even teach themadvocacy skills that if they do
feel that they are being, youknow, berated or whatever, they
could speak up and forthemselves.
And I I work with those dancerson having those skills and

(32:04):
really exploring, like, youknow, is this a right fit or a
not right fit?
Those kinds of things.
So um a lot of that comes fromthe coercive coaching, and yeah,
we don't have that coercivecoaching at our studio, but it
is something that I help a lotof dancers respond to, the ones
that are in that environment, ifthat makes sense.

SPEAKER_05 (32:26):
And that can be pretty common in dance, right?
I mean that that I I don't wantto just boil it down to ballet,
but uh you know, you see anysort of uh ballet scene in a
movie and there's all sorts ofyelling and correction and
things that are very pre uhthings that are are geared
towards precision.
So you're saying youbehaviorally speaking, you can
help somebody understand how touse that toward motivation, and

(32:50):
then sometimes some of thethere's some people that just
aren't gonna be able to toleratethat environment.
Is that fair to say?

SPEAKER_00 (32:56):
Right, right.
Yeah, because I I give theparents uh suggestions who I
work uh who I work with, butagain, if if I'm trying to think
of the best way to say that.
We appreciate your uh youreffort to be um there, I mean,
there's only so much we cansuggest for for change, right?

(33:17):
Um, so again, like helping thekids have that power within
themselves and those skillswithin themselves to be able to
respond to those things.
Um, but yeah, at our studio, weare very focused on artistry.
A lot of people we get all thetime ask us why we don't
compete, because we have a lotof higher level dancers, and

(33:37):
there's this perception insociety that if you're a higher
level dancer, you have to becompeting.
And if you're not competing,you're not as legitimate of a
dancer.
And that's a very warpedperception that I think in 10 to
20 years is going to start tofade away.
We're just kind of at thebeginning of that.
Um it's a values-based thing,right?

SPEAKER_03 (34:00):
It just depends on what you value.

SPEAKER_00 (34:02):
Yeah.
Yeah.
My dancers are very focused onartistry.
And um they dance because theylove to dance and they they want
to be professional dancers, butwe just we don't do competition
because there's just so many,again, back to the research,
there's so many negative aspectsof it.
It leads to um a lot ofattrition, anxiety, lifelong

(34:24):
anxiety, not just performanceanxiety, but anxiety in all
aspects of life.
Um, lifelong injuries, uh, justall kinds.
There's a laundry list ofeffects.
So um it's hard and difficult tofocus on the artistry when
you're just like, okay, I'mtrying to get 40 tricks in a
solo so that I can get a highscore.

(34:44):
You know?

SPEAKER_05 (34:45):
Interesting.
Wow, that's a really interestingcombination between, again,
another example of wherequantifying and then the
qualitative piece.
Because you're right, in termsof competition, there are those
technical scores that need to bequantified.
You have to hit certain marks,and then it's got to look good
at the same time.
Wow, that what a what a perfectcircumstance to to explore ABA
in.
I mean, that's that's fantastic.

(35:06):
Um, so I'm trying to think herein terms of uh repetitive
movement, somebody that's verydriven, very motivated, trying
to hit the mark on certainmovements, then the idea that
repetition is gonna lead tofatigue, fatigue can lead to
injury.
You mentioned that a little bit.
What are your tri without givingyour your secret sauce away?
What are your tricks in helpinguh you know dancers and kind of

(35:28):
saying, okay, you need to stopnow?
I see you're driven to keepgoing on practicing this move or
this this piece of choreography,but I'm actually gonna stop you
because you're done.
If you push anymore, you mightget injured.
Do you do you find you have todefine that line sometimes?

SPEAKER_00 (35:43):
Yeah, we don't we don't have that issue too much
in our studio because most ofthose types of people don't
really gravitate towards us.
It's just not like we're notreally values aligned with those
kinds of people.
Um, but yeah, like when, forexample, in my research and when
I did the tag teach sessions,they were always kept very
short, so like no more than 15minutes.
Um, logistically, there's a lotof things you can do, like

(36:06):
equipment you can purchase.
Like we have a lot at our studiofor that helps um decrease
fatigue so they can do movementsover and over.
For example, we have air floorsand like like poppers where they
can do jumps over and over andover and work on that technique
without that same fatigue.
So logistically, they're like wedo some of those kinds of
things, but um, I would say wedon't really have a problem with

(36:30):
like those types of scenarios inour studio.

SPEAKER_03 (36:34):
Good.
Excellent.

SPEAKER_00 (36:35):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (36:36):
So you talk a lot about values.
Um, and I I think that'sinteresting because we had uh
Maggie Hara Buddha.
I'm not sure if you're familiarwith her, she's uh BCBA with
autism, um, or autistic B C B A.
And um she talked about kind ofstrength-based versus
deficit-based um role ratingthat you know traditionally ABA

(36:58):
and with autism has beenpredominantly deficit-based,
right?
Child can't say name, okay.
We're gonna work on saying name,or child can't use three-word
man, so we're gonna work onthat.
But it seems like thevalues-based that you talk to
talk about um is much moresimilar to the strength-based
model that we're trying to bringto our company specifically, and
hopefully the field is maybetransgressing a little bit into

(37:20):
that, which hopefully brings alittle bit more self-efficacy
for the clients, uh, some moreself-esteem, which is gonna be
super important, I'm sure, fordance, because number one, dance
should probably be fun.
I'm sure there's a lot ofparents or people that put
pressure on their kids where itdoesn't become fun, but ideally
it's fun, and you don't want tojust be constantly beating
people down of like, you can'tdo this, you can't do that, you

(37:40):
can't do this.
So the strengths base seems likeit kind of vibes with your
values base of ACT and the waythat you deliver it.
Can you speak to that?
Or do you have any thoughts onthat at all?

SPEAKER_00 (37:51):
Yeah, um, I think our field is so uh treatment
focused, right?
Like treatment, treatment.
And it's like there are so manythings you can do in ABA that
aren't treatment focused.
Like you can just help peoplelive better lives.
They don't like interesting.
It doesn't have to be a vinylscore.

(38:13):
Yeah, like um, I I've postedabout this a little bit on my
consultation page too, and BCBAslike laugh, but BCBAs that I
work with are usually thehardest clients when it comes to
any kind of coaching, likewhether it be wellness coaching
or business coaching or anythingof that nature.
And I think what it goes back tothat idea of we're almost like

(38:36):
conditioned to think that ABA isa treatment and I don't need
ABA, I don't need a treatment,right?
But it's like, no, it's justit's helping you live a better
life, it's helping you get outof your own way, it's helping
you notice these things that youknow the rest of the world
doesn't really view coaching theway that we view coaching, I

(38:57):
feel like.
So it's just it's a little oddto me.
I I could go on for hours abouta BCBAs and the rigidity, and I
I'm not I'm honestly not reallyaround BCBAs much because it's
just it's it's very rigid, themindset, a lot of things.

SPEAKER_03 (39:16):
And um Yeah, and the ones you're around are the newer
ones too, right?
Nobody knows more than a newBCBA.
We've we've talked about this,so I won't I won't beat this up,
beat this up because we'vetalked about this a lot on the
pod.
But just bringing you up tospeed, at at a previous company
that we worked at where we Mikeand I, and then two other people
kind of ran the company.
We went through a transition,um, where we were we were really

(39:38):
trying to look at how we didthings, and you know, every ABA
company says they're innovative,and it's like, well, in order to
be innovative, you have to havephilosophic doubt and question
things.
And um, there was a lot ofturmoil, especially with newer
BCBAs, when we would bring up,like, are we sure we need to be
taking data on every singletrial?
Like the beans brought example.
Can we just teach a little bitand then take data?

(40:01):
Or, you know, and people wouldbe like, No, no, you have to
take if you're not taking dataon every trial, you're not doing
ABA.
And the rigidity, I mean, welost staff over it for sure,
especially if the the newerBCBAs of like this is how we we
learned it, and it has to bedone this specific way.
If you're not doing it thisexact way, basically trying to
replicate that skinarian labinto somebody's living room,

(40:22):
you're not doing ABA andtherefore you're being
unethical.
So, totally feel you on that.
We went through that.
I don't know if you want tospeak to that, but we went
through that.

SPEAKER_05 (40:30):
You mentioned uh process orientation, um, and we
talked a lot about that, theidea of process versus product,
and our data becomes theproduct, this one little
behavior that we're looking atoccurring.
And again, I think oftentimes sowe we made a shift, for example,
to be get be more specific in myexample.
We made a shift from the idea ofpercentage of opportunity to
just frequency.

(40:51):
So we we're waiting forsomething to happen from the
client, and whenever it happens,just count it.
Just count it and reinforce itand make it happen again.
Uh well, but uh, what if weweren't the uh what if we
weren't the provider of the SD?
Well, who cares?
We're not the only providers ofSDs.
There's a whole environmentaround the child that provides
SDs.
And if if some other SD that youdidn't emit leads to the desired

(41:15):
uh behavior or some form of it,approximation of it, shouldn't
that be reinforced?
And it was really difficult.
I mean, again, we lost people.
Um, people were very keen onthat.
No, well, if you're providingtreatment, you have to deliver
all the SDs.
Okay, I disagree.
I disagree.
I think if there's a treatmentenvironment and it's enriched,
there should be more than onesource of SDs, and we should be

(41:37):
able to respond, uh, you know,if not reinforce uh any given
response that approximates or isin line with what we're trying
to teach.
And that was, I mean, that wasnear impossible for a couple
folks.
Uh, it was just like, no, no,you guys are blasphemy, right?

SPEAKER_00 (41:53):
Yes, and this I've posted about this before too,
but just because something isdifferent doesn't mean it's
unethical.
Just because I practice ABAdifferently than another person
practices ABA, my ABA is notunethical.
I'm I'm still following theethics code.
What I think is actually moreunethical is being so rigid that

(42:15):
you that you can't look at otherthings to help your client.
But it's just a difference ofopinion, right?
Apples and oranges.
And this is the thing like, asI've done a lot of self-work and
I've I've moved a little bitfrom that very rigid academic
mindset, I'm not for everybody.
My service is not for everybody,and that's okay.

(42:36):
Again, I'm not I'm not centeringmy business around proving to
people that I'm a great behavioranalyst.
I don't need to do that.

SPEAKER_03 (42:45):
Which is yeah, and we so much appreciate that.
That's why we've had so manypeople over, especially the last
six months from you know, sportsside of ABA.
We just had a sexuality and ABA,like all sorts of different
health is a big mental healthpiece right now.
Outside of just the, you know,doing ABA with kids with autism.
I'm trying to expand that.
Um, because for some ABA wasnever about kids with autism.

(43:07):
It just somehow got, you know,Lovos said that we could work
with that, and then insurancehas picked it up.

SPEAKER_00 (43:11):
That's where the money is, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (43:12):
So it just became Let me ask you that the
insurance piece, because we areso you said your ABA wasn't um
for everybody, which again weresonate.
Our ABA isn't for everybody,which we found out with a recent
peer-to-peer review uh uh lastweek.
Oh man.
Uh we won't go into that.

SPEAKER_05 (43:30):
Uh oh, I forgot about that.

SPEAKER_03 (43:33):
But but I bring that up because in some ways, with a
lot of the current servicedelivery, it is tricky because
the funder has this liketemplated ABA of it has to fall
within this template, the funderbeing medical insurance.
It has to fall within thistemplate of ABA in order for us
to fund it, which I totally get.
Um, and there is validity ofthat because you can't just be

(43:55):
doing total foo foo stuff and begetting reimbursed.
But it also does limit thecreativity or the you know, they
would never fund a dance in ABAbecause that's not part of the
medical necessity.
The core deficits.

SPEAKER_01 (44:08):
I don't want them to fund me.

SPEAKER_03 (44:10):
No, I I agree a hundred percent.
We want them to fund you, wewant them to fund you, and we
want to work on that.
So the point being that Iappreciate that.
And can you speak to anythingabout breaking outside of the
medical model?
Because it's really, reallychallenging to get funding
outside of the medical model fora lot of people.
And when you're within themedical model, you kind of have
to do your creativity, is verylimited.

SPEAKER_05 (44:32):
Yeah, I imagine you help people that are going
through this too, in terms ofbusiness owners that are
inevitably gonna be part ofthis.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (44:39):
So that's what I was gonna do.
That's where I was going.
Yeah, it it takes a lot ofskills that you don't learn in
grad school.
So I'll just put it that way.
It takes a lot of skills, a lotof um practice, learning from
people who are in similarsituations.
Um, so that's where the businesscoaching and the supervision, if

(45:01):
you are going outside of ABA, inmy opinion, is a hundred percent
necessary.
Um, because it's just it's notanything you learned in grad
school.
And a lot of the work that I dowith people, I don't want to say
I'm helping them like unlearnthings from grad school because
obviously we want all theconceptual things there, but
unlearn a lot of mindset issuesthat are holding them back or

(45:24):
things that are just differentin in this kind of practice.
And um yeah, it's just it'sdifferent.

SPEAKER_03 (45:32):
Can you speak to any of the mindset?
So you said unlearn some of themindset issues.
Totally agree with you.
Can you speak to any of the onesthat you run into a lot that you
might advise that that peopleexploring other avenues might
might benefit from unlearning orsome mental traps that people
fall into?

SPEAKER_00 (45:50):
Definitely.
Well, we talked about onealready.
Um, I think the idea of likeproving ourselves as behavior
analysts to other behavioranalysts.
I don't I don't know abouty'all's graduate school
experience, but I think that's avery common graduate school
experience of like everyone'strying to prove that they're
very competent and um veryscientific and all these.

(46:11):
I mean, I I still see it.
Like when I go to conferences,like it's it's still very
present in the room.
And I think that's one mindsetshift of like you don't need to
constantly prove your knowledge.
You don't need to speak acertain way to a parent or to a
staff member.
Like, actually, that's the exactopposite way that you should

(46:32):
speak.
Um, so I think that's one thing.
Um, I think the impostersyndrome is a big one, right?
That we I think it's more of awoman thing than a man thing.
But from graduate school, likethat imposter syndrome of like,
should I be here?
Like, am I allowed to take upspace?
Like, am I allowed to be doingthis kind of thing?

(46:52):
And and again, back to our fieldbeing so rigid.
Sometimes it feels like wheneveryou are stepping outside of that
box that you're doing somethingwrong, or people make you feel
like you're doing somethingunethical when you're not.
Um, so that's like a mindsetshift.
Um, I had to work a lot on mymoney mindset in business for
sure.

(47:13):
Um, like my financial mindset oflike what I'm worth and not
worrying about what other peopleare charging or what other
people are doing, like thosekinds of things.
So a lot of things come intoplay, but those are the ones
that I can think of like off thetop of my head.
Um, I'm very, very passionatetoo about teaching, especially
women BCVAs, like aboutself-care.

(47:34):
And like I know self-care islike a buzzword, but um I'm just
very, very big on like the moreyou pour into yourself, the more
your business flourishes.
And I feel like it's the mostlike under talked about thing.
And I actually did a wholepresentation about this last
month in Women in BehaviorAnalysis, the conference.

(47:57):
Um, but when you really startpouring into yourself and you
learn boundary setting and youlearn emotional regulation and
you learn all of these things,it actually makes your business
profit and flourish in ways thatis just it's wild.
And my coach, who's outside ofABA, like told me that, and I
was like, nah, no, that's not athing.

(48:18):
And then, like, when I reallystarted doing it and was forced
to do it, um, I really did seethe profits soar.
And um, I oh, and I thinkanother big one is like
authenticity too.
Like, that's again somethingthat I feel like is a little bit
discouraged in grad school,right?
You know, like don't wear thosethings, don't show your tattoos,

(48:39):
don't speak this way, don't.
And in business, businessesthrive on authenticity.
And that's how you profit as abusiness.
And I a lot of these ABA outsideof autism businesses, again,
they're they're very sterile.
And people don't want sterile,they don't want to buy from
sterile, they want to buy fromsomeone who's authentic and

(48:59):
speaks to them and those kindsof things.

SPEAKER_03 (49:02):
That's an interesting point because
anytime you are authentic, youare gonna alienate some portion
of an audience, right?
But that's actually really, areally good point.
Obviously, we we try to be veryauthentic with um with what we
deliver, and that's why you knowpeople have followed us through
various companies because ofthat.

SPEAKER_05 (49:18):
Um you mentioned um, I mean, you you have to maintain
your continuing education units.
Um how does that look like foryou?
Because most of theseconferences are gonna be
centered around some sort ofautism treatment.
Uh so you're doing a lot ofyou're doing workshops, which
allows you to gain some of that.
You're teaching, which allowsyou to gain some units.
But you know, you go to anygiven ABA conference.

(49:41):
How do you how do you chooseyour sessions?
Tell us a little bit about yoursecret there.
Because what what interests you,what pops out, you know.

SPEAKER_00 (49:47):
So Yeah, I'm not the biggest fan of ABA conferences.
I can imagine.

SPEAKER_05 (49:51):
I need neither are we, and we're actually in autism
treatment.
I always feel like we I alwaysfeel like I mean, this is gonna
sound a little bit arrogant, butI feel like I get there and I
see some incredible title for asession, and then you go to the
session and you're like, really?
This is what you're talkingabout?
Like, this is this is ABA 101,like day two.
Like, and why are we rehashingthis stuff?

SPEAKER_00 (50:14):
Again, it goes back to people are scared to really
give their opinion on asituation, right?
They're scared to like reallyhave that raw because people
want like a raw conversation,but people are scared to do that
because they don't want someonein the in the audience raising
their hand and being like, well,actually, in this research, you
know, like because that's whatit is.
That's the vibe.

(50:34):
That's literally the vibe.
So we get so scared to likethat's actually something I'm
gonna say I loved about the WIBAconference last month.
Um, that conference was not thatway, and it was very different.
And um I I liked that about it.
It was very more comfortable.
Um, people were not in theaudience to try to point out

(50:57):
something that the presentermight have had a snafu on or
whatever.

SPEAKER_05 (51:01):
Like you It sounds like you're relaying some
personal experience here withthe hand raised.
Do you want to share ananecdote?
Because I think you're I thinkit's really important is it
because you're right.
That that's what we that's whatwe're afraid of.
That's what we've faced too, andand not using the technological
terms just so or we're prettycruel.
We're we're kind of like crabsin a can as behavior analysts.

(51:24):
We're not looking to lift eachother up.
A lot of times we're looking atcorrecting each other.
And so I'm sure you've hit that.
I don't know if you've got anyany anecdotes present.

SPEAKER_00 (51:31):
Please tell us.
Yeah, no, after the WIBAconference, um, I had I had
lunch with a friend who was uhshe had just moved to where the
conference was and she has aPhD.
And um, we went to some similarprograms and things of that
nature, and we were talking, andI I said to her what I said to
you guys, I was like, Yeah, itwas so nice.
Like everyone was so supportive.
And she was like, I know exactlywhat you're talking about.

(51:53):
She's like, because I was atABAI last month, she's like, and
that happened at two differentpresentations I was in.
Someone was presenting, and atthe end, someone in the audience
tried to make the presenterthrow them off or make them look
a certain way at the end.
And and I was like, all right,well, I wasn't even there, but
there we go, right there.
I mean, there it is.

(52:14):
So um, yeah, just Oh, so sorry,Dr.

SPEAKER_05 (52:19):
Quinn.
I have to stop you there.
As this concludes part one ofour interview, please do return
for part two.

SPEAKER_02 (52:28):
And always analyze responsibly.

SPEAKER_04 (52:32):
ABA on tap is recorded live and unfiltered.
We're done for today.
You don't have to go home, butyou can't stay here.
See you next time.

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