April 20, 2025 • 102 mins
Part 1 of 2
ABA on Tap is proud to spend some time with Maggie Haraburda, founder and director of Unfurling Littles, a unique treatment center combining ABA with best practices in Early Childhood Education.
Neurodiversity Affirming and rooted in compassionate care; this center takes an approach to supporting children of all neurotypes that is play-based and child-led. Unfurling Littles was created out of a desire to do better for neurodivergent children and create a model of Applied Behavioral Analysis (ABA) that is not implicated in causing harm. Maggie believes that "The only way to move forward, is to look back with open eyes. We are a small Autistic owned company and will stay that way. We are not your average agency and we don't intend to be, we are just a group of humans trying to help other humans. "
Given recent concerns and criticisms of ABA as presented by members of the neurodivergent community, Maggie promotes an important message of truly collaborative treatment.
This is smooth and easy brew. Pour heavy, pour lots and always analyze responsibly.
Please find Maggie and her incredible team at:
https://www.unfurlinglittles.com/
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🎧 Analyze Responsibly & Keep the Conversation Going! 🍻
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Dan Lowery (00:00):
Welcome to ABA on Tap, where our goal is to find
the best recipe to brew thesmoothest, coldest, and best
tasting ABA around.
I'm Dan Lowry with Mike Rubio,and join us on our journey as we
(00:23):
look back into the ingredientsto form the best concoction of
ABA on tap.
In this podcast, we will talkabout the history of the ABA
brew, how much to consume toachieve the optimum buzz while
not getting too drunk, and therecommended pairings to bring to
the table.
(00:43):
So without further ado, sitback, relax, and always analyze
responsibly.
Mike Rubio (00:53):
And welcome back to yet another installment of ABA
OnTap.
I am your very gratefulco-host, Mike Rubio, along with
Mr.
Daniel Lowry.
Mr.
Dan, good to see you, sir.
Dan Lowery (01:04):
Great to see you as well.
How are you doing?
Mike Rubio (01:06):
Feeling good, feeling good.
Recovering, a little bit ofillness.
I think it's going around.
We'll talk maybe with our guestabout that as well.
But things are going well.
How are you doing, sir?
Dan Lowery (01:16):
Doing great.
Really excited for thispodcast.
This has been a long timecoming.
We've We met this young lady afew months ago and I've been
eager to get her on the podcastand today is the day.
Mike Rubio (01:27):
Yep.
So we are very proud to haveMaggie Haraberta as our guest
today.
She is the founder, director ofUnfurling Littles, a program
that I know a lot about withvery little exposure and I'm
very excited to have ourlisteners learn more about.
One of the things, so we got achance to meet Maggie at the
(01:50):
CPABA conference back in Octoberof 2024 and quite frankly it
was my first experience meetingan autistic BCBA so it was a
real pleasure to have Maggie bethat first along with Michelle
Zeman who but we met both of youduring that conference and just
a very very unique perspectiveso without further ado Maggie
(02:13):
thank you for your time weappreciate you taking time on a
Sunday which is when we recordto hang out with us we'd like to
start with the origin story sotell us all about you.
Please kick right in.
Maggie Haraburda (02:24):
Sure.
Thanks so much for having me,guys.
I'm excited for thisconversation.
So yeah, I'm Maggie.
I am the founder and clinicaldirector of Enferling Littles.
And I got into this field thefield of ABA because I wanted to
disrupt what was happening andhelp to shift the field to be
more neurodiversity firming,more accepting, and a little bit
(02:47):
more compassionate.
So to back up a little bit, Idid talk till I was in three.
I was in conventional speechtherapy.
I had a lot of what felt likejust othering myself.
Like I felt like I never reallyfit in, never really understood
the way that other peopleworked.
I was diagnosed with anxiety asa kid.
And I just, yeah, had thatconstant feeling of like, I just
(03:10):
don't quite get it.
Like everyone felt like theywere going one way and I was
going in the other direction andthat stuck throughout my
childhood.
And I think that feeling reallystarted to be internalized the
older I got.
So when I was 12 years old, Ideveloped an eating disorder.
And then by 16, I was a fullblown alcoholic, experienced
(03:32):
many instances of being indangerous situations and failed
to pick up on those like socialcues that I was unsafe.
And so While I was goingthrough that, I felt like it was
the only way that I couldregulate myself.
I was constantly feelingdysregulated and didn't know how
else to calm what I wasexperiencing besides drinking.
(03:53):
And when I was 22, I finallygot sober.
So I got sober very young, andI've been sober since then.
I just turned 30 this year.
Shout
Mike Rubio (04:00):
out to
Maggie Haraburda (04:00):
you for that.
Mike Rubio (04:01):
Congratulations.
That's a lot of work.
Maggie Haraburda (04:03):
Thank you.
That's a lot
Mike Rubio (04:04):
of work.
Maggie Haraburda (04:04):
Thank you.
Yeah, during that time, though,I was I went to school in the
University of Vermont, and I wasstudying to be an early
childhood special educator.
And I was working as a personalcare assistant for a six year
old child who was not speaking.
And I felt safer with him thanI had ever felt with anyone in
my entire life.
(04:24):
And, you know, he wasn'tspeaking at the time.
But when I was with him, I justfelt that safety and security
that I had long sought throughthe relationships in my life.
And when I moved back toPhiladelphia in, let's see, what
was that?
2018.
I started working in earlyintervention and went on to get
(04:45):
my master's in EPA.
And really, the only reason Iwent through with working in
this field is because ofacceptance and commitment
therapy or ACT.
That's really what drew me toit.
And I thought, well, you know,if this is a part of the field,
then maybe I can pallet this andhelp to make shift.
And then I found ProjectImpact, which is a naturalistic
developmental behaviorintervention and TBI.
(05:06):
And yeah, I joined the fieldand I, pretty quickly started
working with the middle schoolpopulation and was doing
primarily ACT.
And I was working with a middleschool girl who said to me, are
you autistic?
She said, you're just like me.
Everything you describe,everything you talk about, I
(05:27):
relate so much to you.
Like, are you on the spectrumtoo?
And I said, you know, I haven'treally thought about it, but
maybe.
And that kind of planted theseed to start to explore my own
neurodiversity.
And then I went on to move inwith my now husband who picked
up on things I did that I didn'tknow wasn't necessarily
typical.
And so he really encouraged meto seek an evaluation as well.
(05:51):
And I worked with this amazingpsychologist here in Philly, Dr.
Robert Nassif, and I shared mystory with him, like I just
shared with you guys.
And he said to me that I justdescribed the female autistic
experience, these instances ofeating disorder, alcoholism,
assault, like it's so common inpeople.
autistic females.
(06:12):
And that was a couple yearsago.
And it's been really, reallywonderful to understand the way
that my brain works andoperates.
And when I got my diagnosis, itwas like my mom got hers as
well.
So she's also on the spectrum.
Yeah, friends and the family,apparently.
Two for one.
Yeah, yeah, two for one.
Friends and the family.
(06:33):
I've heard
Mike Rubio (06:34):
that.
I've heard that.
Maggie Haraburda (06:36):
Yeah.
Mike Rubio (06:37):
That whole genetics thing, right?
Maggie Haraburda (06:39):
Yeah.
Yeah, exactly.
Yeah.
So yeah, that's a little bitabout my story and how I got
here.
A
Mike Rubio (06:46):
huge relief for you in that sense.
I'll put that in contrast to alot of early intervention
experiences that I might haveprofessionally where this is a
huge concern, unexpected lifeevent for some people.
For you, I mean, so forparents, it can be devastating
and rightfully so, we canunderstand why.
(07:07):
You, in contrast, it was arelief.
to find out.
Maggie Haraburda (07:13):
Is that fair to say?
And I think absolutely.
I mean, huge relief.
And when I do a lot of freespeaks on neurodiversity
affirming care, and one of thebiggest things I say is if you
think your child has anotherneurotype, like please seek an
evaluation to spare them what Iwent through.
I think if I had known that Ioperated in a different capacity
(07:33):
and it's not bad, it's justdifferent.
I don't think I would have hadto go through what I went
through to get where I am today.
Dan Lowery (07:41):
Interesting, because it's always, you know, as
somebody who's not on thespectrum, or at least not
diagnosed on the spectrum, ithas been something that's been
difficult to broach, I think,with a lot of families.
So I guess my question to you,Maggie, is can you expand on
that?
Because the day before yourdiagnosis, you had, I'm sure you
had the same Personality typeis the day after.
(08:03):
So the diagnosis doesn't changeanything about you, but what,
what did it, did it allow you tolike compartmentalize or
explain or make sense of things?
And if so, what things likewithout getting, you don't have
to be specific about thebehaviors, but like, how did,
how did it help?
Because it's just a label,right?
Somebody gave to you.
Maggie Haraburda (08:24):
Yeah, I mean, even thinking back to some of my
earliest memories, like Iremember having this, this girl
come over for a play date.
And I was probably in firstgrade.
And I think it was one of myfirst play dates.
And I knew that she likedscience, like she liked bugs and
insects.
And so I thought, well, I likebugs and insects, then that
means that we can be friends.
So I went and I got all thesebooks about bugs and insects,
(08:46):
and I played them all around thefloor.
So and pretended to read themwhen she came over.
Because I thought if we hadthis, this connection, then then
that means we that were friendsso I think back to that like if
I had understood like I youknow how friendship worked like
some of those like some simplethings that people who are
neurotypical might take forgranted that's just information
(09:06):
they have like there were somany times where if I had had
more information I don't think Iwould have suffered like
another example is every day atlunch in elementary school I
would spill my milk I just haveno proprio receptive awareness
okay and I'm talking and myhands are flying all over the
place I'm crashing things overand every day I spill my milk
and my friends would get soupset get up leave the table and
(09:28):
I didn't know why or like whatI was doing wrong but if I had
the wherewithal back then to sayoh I'm I just have no body
awareness.
You know, I can bring humor toit.
I can bring some diffusion andI can also bring some acceptance
for my friends that I'm notdoing this intentionally.
I literally don't know where mybody is in space at any given
moment.
Mike Rubio (09:47):
Well, that's fascinating.
I mean, just the affirmation,the idea that this is why this
happens and now we don't have towonder about it or, I mean,
people can still be disparagingabout it, but at least now
they're making a choice to do soas opposed to being curious
just like you what's going onhere?
Yeah.
That's so fascinating.
It's, it's this, I'm not doingthis on purpose.
(10:08):
I'm not trying to, you know, infact, I'm, I'm excited to talk
to you.
So my hands are moving.
I, I gesticulate too.
So I get that.
I get that for sure.
Dan Lowery (10:15):
I have one more question with that.
Did it help you understand yourbehaviors better or did it help
you understand other people'sbehaviors better?
Cause there's a difference,right?
And between your behaviors andother people's behaviors in
those regards of like what afriendship would be.
So what, which, Did it lead youto more internalize of, okay, I
(10:35):
feel like I need to now, notneed to, but I feel like it
would benefit me to exploremaybe the way that they're doing
things differently, or did ithelp you now be able to explain
to other people so that they canaccommodate for maybe your
thought processes andperspectives?
Maggie Haraburda (10:55):
I think that it helped me more than anything
understand myself and then alsounderstand why people responded
to me the way they did.
Like in middle school, forexample, I was voted most
interesting, which really justmeans weirdest.
And I understand that now it'sbecause like at that point, my
masking wasn't as severe as itbecame in high school.
(11:17):
And so I think the biggestthing I would have gained with
an earlier diagnosis is I moreresources to regulate myself.
I have this huge stack ofdemerits that I would get for
chewing gum, but I was oralsensory seeking.
And so the gum was anaccommodation that I had given
myself, but was punished by thepeople around me.
(11:40):
So if they'd known, oh, she isautistic and she might have
difficulties with sensoryprocessing, maybe this could be
an accommodation we could put inplace for something that we
would need to punish her for.
Even thinking about autism myold report cards you know she's
constantly moving or she's gotto sit still she needs to focus
like those would have been greatopportunities for me to have an
(12:03):
accommodation like maybe i havea wiggle seat or a fidget
something that can i can useinstead of just telling myself
stop moving stay still staystill stay still like stop being
who you are
Dan Lowery (12:14):
that makes sense so it like becomes less
personalized of why do I feelthis way and why is somebody not
connecting with me?
And then you get theexplanation and now it allows
you that ability to understandwhy that might be the case.
Maggie Haraburda (12:30):
Yeah, exactly.
Mike Rubio (12:31):
Will you expand on masking a little bit?
Because that's an interestingconcept.
The way you speak about it,it's in terms of your own
volition or choice to...
mask certain things you do incertain settings, that sounds
okay.
Now the idea that ABAtraditionally may have
encroached or forced maskingupon certain individuals, that's
(12:55):
a really important difference.
So it's not masking yes or no,it's masking, if this is fair to
say, based on the individual'sdecision to do so.
And then, and sometimes it'sgoing to be based on the greater
you know willingness to just gowith the flow and okay so
somebody's making movements thatare a little bit unorthodox to
use that term what's the matterwhy are we so caught up in it so
(13:19):
even diagnostically the ideathat initially you know I'm
saying be who you are I thinkthere was a you know with all
due respect a traditional notionthat stereotypy for example we
can make that go awaybehaviorally and what we're
talking about here is completelydifferent this is masking based
on the individual's volitionwhat's your thought on that
Maggie Haraburda (13:38):
I think it's really complex.
And for me, I always thinkabout what is the message that
I'm sending during myinteractions.
I talk a lot aboutmicroaggressions with the
teachers that I work with.
So saying things like, wow,you're really making a lot of
eye contact today, or you'rereally staying still at circle
(14:00):
time.
And those things can be seen asreinforcing reinforcement.
But what it's reallyreinforcing is the child's
ability to mask their needs.
And so instead, I have, I'llcoach them to use acceptance
phrases, such as like, I seeyou, I hear you, What can I
provide to you?
What do you need?
And so helping them see it'sokay if you need to fidget,
(14:20):
wiggle, and move.
I'm not going to send themessage that that's bad because
that's innately what your bodyis telling you that you need to
be doing.
So I think it's the idea ofmasking for me is that I'm
transitioning into this phase ofunmasking and seeking to ask
for the accommodations that Ididn't have growing up.
(14:41):
And There's times at which Imight choose to mask, whether
it's for my safety, for mywell-being, for the way I'm
perceived professionally.
So I think the important pieceabout masking is that it is up
to the individual.
And so as a company, we have apolicy that we will not
encourage or reinforce maskingof any kind.
(15:02):
That being said, if I'm workingwith a middle schooler who
says, I want to learn how to doX, Y, and Z, I always talk to
them that engaging in thosebehaviors isn't innately bad.
And masking who you are at yourcore can lead to negative
mental health outcomes.
So I think when we're workingwith older children, I'm always
(15:25):
making sure that they're awareof if you do choose to mask,
that is your choice.
But I need you to make surethat you also have spaces in
which you can unmask to fully beyourself.
Dan Lowery (15:35):
Excellent.
I've got to process thatmicroaggressions piece.
That was really interesting.
I've got to let that processbecause I've never heard it
explained like that.
Let's say somebody's at circletime or doing work or something
like that.
Some of the maybe traditionalmicroaggressions you would hear
(15:56):
people do.
I think you said nice jobsitting still.
or things of that nature, theeye contact makes a lot of
sense.
Can you think of some othertraditional ones?
Because I gotta try toimplement this into my practice
and make sure that I'm notinadvertently doing that.
And thank you for making meaware.
Maggie Haraburda (16:13):
Yeah, I think it's like the calm body.
I hear a lot, thank you forhaving a calm body.
Thank you for showing me thatyou're ready to learn.
I don't think people aremalintentions when they're
saying those things, but whatit's really conveying is I like
you better when you have a calmbody.
I prefer you when you'reengaging in this type of
(16:33):
behavior instead of that one.
And so I think it's reallyimportant that we're thinking
about those things as minute asthey may feel.
I'm always thinking about what,how am I making this child feel
and what I'm saying and whatmessage am I sending to them?
Mike Rubio (16:49):
The way you put it was interesting, right?
Hey, I can see you.
I can hear you.
Does that mean in your opinion,the teacher can then ask about
that can you see me or can youhear me right now is that okay
would you feel and that's thewhole point i think what teacher
is trying to say in that momentis is i think the good intent
(17:10):
is if you have a calm body theni if you're looking at me with a
calm body and you're activelistening or whatever phrasing
people might use the idea isthat i feel like you have the
best chance of listening to meright now.
And that may not be the casefor any given individual.
That's just our perceptionthat, you know, yes, the idea
that I can look at somebody, youknow, dead in the face and they
(17:33):
think I'm actively listening,but my mind might still be
drifting.
We just have this assumptionthat that's the way active
listening looks.
And what you're saying is, no,no, that could be very
different.
It's the idea that maybe youraffirming language is, hey, I'm
trying to make a connection withyou somehow.
So if I can see you and hearyou and you can see me and hear
me, then we're good.
Is that fair to say?
Maggie Haraburda (17:54):
Well, I think it's that we have this idea of
what engagement looks like.
Y es, we do.
That it looks like someoneorienting and focused.
Staring at you right in theface,
Mike Rubio (18:02):
right?
Maggie Haraburda (18:04):
Exactly.
But if I'm doing that, you cannotice when I'm talking, I'm not
looking right at you guys.
I'm talking and I'm lookingaround because if I'm focused on
looking right at you, I am mostlikely dissociating and not
focusing on anything else exceptfor where my eyes are in space.
So when I'm in session withautistic children, typically
(18:25):
we're moving all around theroom.
We're not looking at eachother, but we're having
extremely active conversation.
That's really dynamic becausewe're giving our bodies what
they need in order to stayregulated so we can access the
conversation and the engagement.
Yeah.
So I think it's, like I'llusually redefine for the kids
I'm supporting of what doesengagement look like for them?
(18:46):
Cause it's gonna look differentfor every kid.
Like for a child at circletime, like something the teacher
might do to show acceptance isif they do need to wiggle and
move in order to access circletime, maybe they give them a
special space that they can sitin so they won't bump into other
people, but they can still gettheir needs met.
Maybe they have, if they seethe child is fidgeting with
(19:10):
their hands or looksuncomfortable, maybe they hands
them a fidget and just said, Isee you.
This is here if you need it,right?
Is that sending the message?
It's okay if you need to dothis.
It's not bad.
And it's accepted from me inthis space.
Thanks.
Dan Lowery (19:24):
I remember I was in college and there was a
professor that kind ofsubliminally did a test on us.
He was presenting one day andhe said, I want you all to count
how many times they say, uh, asI deliver this message in the
next.
And then people counted it.
And then he's like, what did Italk about?
Nobody knew what he talkedabout because it was like your
brain could only focus on one ofthe things.
(19:44):
And it kind of seems likethat's what you're saying.
If your brain is solely focusedon eye contact, calm body, you
might lose the total messagebecause you're spending all of
your brain space focusing onthat.
Yeah.
Is that accurate?
Maggie Haraburda (19:57):
Yeah, I think, yeah, absolutely.
Like I know for myself,sometimes at the end of the day,
I might just be spent from likeverbally communicating.
And so my husband and I mightsit quietly.
We might not have back andforth conversation.
Maybe I'll even message himsome thoughts that I'm thinking
while we're sitting on the couchinstead of verbally
communicating.
And there's always, if I'mhaving a deeper challenging
(20:19):
conversation, I'm rarely makingeye contact in those moments
because I need to stay focusedon the topic of what we're
discussing.
Dan Lowery (20:27):
I
Mike Rubio (20:28):
was just going to say this is fascinating.
I mean, what you described withyour husband, for example,
that's an amazing relationshippractice that maybe people
aren't aware enough aboutthemselves to shut up once in a
while.
Right?
So you guys are like, hey, Imean, you know, your excuse, so
to speak, is, hey, look, I'mautistic.
I need to do this.
I think a lot of people maybeare missing the fact that you
(20:50):
need to shut down sometimes andwe just need to sit together and
do nothing.
Because if we speak right now,I'm exhausted, you're agitated,
that might lead to.
I was just really fascinated byyou describing that.
I think it's greaterself-awareness where we might
look at it from a diagnosticperspective as a lesser
self-awareness in some points ifwe're not careful enough about
(21:10):
our thought process.
Anyway, thanks for sharingthat.
That was fascinating.
Dan Lowery (21:13):
Yeah, that's what I was basically going to say.
We both went to therelationship.
You have just an extremely highlevel of self-awareness and a
great way to articulate that,which I think bodes well in just
society in general, right?
Because maybe a lot of peoplearen't able to understand or
communicate on the level that alot of the maybe individuals
(21:34):
that are non-speakingcommunicate at.
So again, I don't know muchabout your husband.
The fact that you're able tosay potentially, husband, this
is what I need from you.
This is what I would appreciateverbally.
He probably understands thatand then can accommodate for
that.
And then your level ofawareness as well.
Now, for a lot of people whomight not have either that level
(21:57):
of awareness, but it's hard tosay what people have or don't
have.
It's easier to know what theycan articulate back to you.
Do you have any thoughts onthat for individuals that may
not have the verbal ability youhave to articulate that back?
Maggie Haraburda (22:13):
Yeah, I think it's about just really getting
back.
curious about what goes oninternally.
Like I know for us, after anactivity at the center or during
a session, I might saysomething like, I wonder how
that made you feel.
And I'm doing that to just drawtheir awareness to check in.
I'm like, huh, how did I feelafter X, Y, and Z happened?
(22:33):
And so I think that forchildren who are non-speaking,
it's the same thing.
Like we do a lot of notlabeling emotions.
I don't believe in just blanklylabeling someone's emotions,
but we'll draw their awarenessto their physical What does that
mean?
Like pulling back, pulling,like pulling back and saying
(22:55):
that if there was likewithdrawing their hands or
whatever it may be, but tryingto help them make the connection
of like when X stimuli wasthere, my body responded in this
way.
And I think that's really howyou make that behavior change
over time.
That's meaningful for thatperson.
And like, it took me time tohave that self-awareness, you
know, at times I might not know.
(23:16):
And then I might get short orsnappy with my husband versus if
I can say, Oh, I'm, I'm alittle dysregulated right now.
I think I need to take sometime for myself.
And we have this rule in ourhouse that just because we're in
the same room doesn't meanwe're hanging out.
And so we try to make sure ifwe are engaging, like checking
in before, like, do we have thecapacity to do this?
Or do we have the capacity todo this?
We just need to take some quietfor
Dan Lowery (23:38):
ourselves.
Well, dysregulation happens.
I mean, we all get dysregulatedall
Mike Rubio (23:42):
the time.
That's what I was saying.
We're not so aware of it or soapt to say it, right?
So otherwise, we give eachother the cold shoulder or the
silent treatment or whatever itis.
That means some level ofdysregulation and not
necessarily being aware of it.
That's why I'm so fascinated bythat premise.
I mean, it's fantastic.
Dan Lowery (24:01):
That is amazing.
My last question with themasking piece.
So that sounds, and we are soon board with what you're
saying.
You've been so integral to usstarting our own company and
things like that.
I'm sure we'll talk so muchabout that as we go through this
podcast because we are on, Ibelieve, the same exact
wavelength with how the servicescould best be delivered.
(24:23):
So you have a teacher in thissituation, and you were talking
about this in pertaining tomasking.
Maybe the child is runningaround, rambunctious, things
like that.
And maybe that teacher in thatsituation can be accommodating
and allow for that.
The way that, obviously,typical education is set up, and
(24:44):
we can talk about that probablyisn't the best way that it
should be, but it is for themost part is sitting down at a
chair and eye contact and thingslike that.
So do you find a difficulty intaking in a teaching structure
which is so much moreindividualized and child-focused
and focused on that one person.
And then at some point helpingthat individual transition to a
(25:08):
more, what could be calledstructured or traditional
education setting.
Is that something you advocatefor?
And if so, do you have anydifficulty with that transition?
Hopefully that made sense.
Maggie Haraburda (25:18):
So it does.
I think a lot of the work thatI do is harm reduction.
I can't change every space inwhich a child will enter, but I
can change the spaces that I cancontrol.
And so when children areentering into those more typical
settings and structures, Ialways make sure that A, they're
(25:39):
not the only neurodivergentperson in that room, and B, that
if they're going to be in thatsetting, they have the ability
to advocate for theaccommodations that they need.
And so I think when we'rethinking about things like
accommodations, it is up to theindividual to self-advocate for
what they need.
But until they're able to dothat, then it's our job as
(26:00):
therapists, behavior analysts,technicians, whoever it may be,
parents, to advocate for thoseneeds so that they're able to
access that environment.
I think a lot about, are youguys familiar with universal
design for learning?
No.
Dan Lowery (26:15):
No.
Maggie Haraburda (26:16):
Okay, so Universal Design for Learning
thinks about the ways that wecan make these things that are
unanimously available for peopleat all times.
And so I've been thinking a lotabout universal design for
regulation.
So having the accommodations inplace so that someone doesn't
need to ask for them, meaning,you know, fidgets are great for
all humans, not just people whoare neurodivergent.
So keep a basket of fidgetsreadily available for everyone.
(26:39):
Same with flexible seating,have a variety of flexible
seating options available forall humans.
So when we're thinking about inthe spaces that these kids
might go into, I think thequestion is, Are they able to
differentiate how people aregoing to respond to them?
So we have a child now that wesupport in a typical school
(27:00):
environment.
And when I arrive, the teachersoften get upset because he will
start to unmask.
He starts to wiggle more.
He starts to fidget more.
And so when I go into thatspace, I am encouraging him to
take a break from masking and tounmask.
And then I'm trying to educatethe teachers on that.
That's what's happening in thismoment.
The child is not acting out nowthat I'm here, he is feeling
(27:23):
safe enough because I'm here tounmask.
So I think that there's a longway to go in terms of these
environments and having teacherslike that that are willing to
work with me.
But as I said earlier, I dothese free trainings in our
diversity, affirming care.
And this year I did one in oneof the biggest school districts
around us.
And so there is changehappening in typical education.
(27:45):
I think it's just a lot slowerthan we need it.
Dan Lowery (27:51):
I was going to say that makes a lot of sense.
Assuming the teachers arewilling to work half the time,
it's hard, especially withgeneral education teachers, to
get them to follow what's in anIEP.
I can't tell you how many timesI've heard, yeah, it's in the
IEP, but that's not how we dothings in my classroom.
I mean, that's unfortunate, butthat's what we run into
(28:14):
sometimes.
So the more we can educatepeople, I think that's just
amazing.
Mike Rubio (28:19):
What's...
You know, what's the trick?
I'm sure you speak to all sortsof educators, and that's a
really fine line betweenunmasking and fooling around.
Speaker 01 (28:31):
Yeah.
Mike Rubio (28:32):
You know, that's got to be tough to discern.
You are, you know, Mrs.
Smith.
You've been teaching for 30years.
What can Maggie Haraburda teachme?
This kid's just noncompliantand needs to be disciplined.
And that's...
That's a tough line.
That's hard because we'reapproaching it from a sense of
(28:55):
uniformity.
You're coming in and you'regoing, no, clearly it doesn't
work for Johnny or whoever.
I mean, we can see that.
And the more you try to forcethem into it, it doesn't mean
it's going to get any better.
So what do you find are yourstrategies to try and educate
those people who do have a lotof experience but are walking
(29:16):
that fine line between unmaskingand fooling around?
Maggie Haraburda (29:21):
So I have a rule for myself that I only
educate those who want to learnand further from once are ready
and have the capacity to learnand change.
So at my company, we screen theschools we go into to see where
they are in their journey ofneurodiversity affirming care.
And we're not afraid to say,no, this is not a good setting
(29:44):
for us to provide services in.
And so that's to support...
My own regulation and ourstaff's, because if we're
constantly in spaces in whichwe're fighting, we don't get to
do the work.
That's so meaningful.
We don't get to actuallysupport these kids.
And so for me, I go into spacesin which people want to listen
and which people want to change.
(30:04):
And, you know, I often think.
um, what side of history do Iwant to be on?
Right?
Like, do I want to be in theseenvironments where I'm not
really making change or do Iwant to be in the spaces that
fully want to accept this, thisideological ideology and make
those changes?
Um, and so when I think when Istarted to say no in spaces, I
(30:28):
saw that we were invited morefrequently into the spaces that
were ready to say yes to thistype of interaction style.
Um, And I think that's what alot of people in our field are
really scared of is saying no toa family or saying no to a
school environment and justaccepting that this might not be
a space in which I can makemeaningful change.
(30:48):
I also think a lot aboutmicro-shaping and we're
constantly micro-shapingpeople's behavior to be more
affirming.
And so if we are in a spacethat's not very affirming, what
are the small, very smallchanges we can start to make in
order to help shift thingsforward?
But for me, the risk is to highin working in spaces that
(31:09):
aren't going to be affirmingwhen, you know, there was a
recent study that came out in2019 that nine out of 10
autistic females have beenassaulted.
And if you're autistic orneurodivergent, you are two to
three times more likely toexperience trauma.
So for me, the risk is too highin continuing to engage and to
be a part of those spaces thataren't affirming these kids.
Dan Lowery (31:32):
Saying no, that's amazing.
Like saying no, I'm not goingto work in your setting.
I wish that happened moreoften.
Mike Rubio (31:40):
Well, it takes, I mean, from a fiscal perspective,
that can be difficult forpeople.
That's the challenge is theytake anything that comes our way
because you're looking to, Imean, yes, there's a fiscal
drive and then you're looking tomake a change.
And then to Maggie's point,oftentimes those situations, we
end up overextended and actuallynot you know, making a change
(32:02):
and overworking staff and, youknow, things like that.
Give us your best and worst.
Give us your most pleasantcircumstance in walking into a
situation and being like, oh,wow, these folks are really on
their way to something moreneuroaffirming, more
neurodiverse affirming, and thenmaybe a nightmare where you
(32:22):
walked in somewhere and said,yep, no, I can't do this, if
that's fair, if you canremember.
Unknown (32:27):
Yeah.
Maggie Haraburda (32:28):
Yeah, I mean, recently, I went to a school and
did one of my free trainings inour diversity improvement care.
And it's a large school inPhiladelphia.
And then a week later, I got anemail asking if our company
would contract with them toprovide all of their behavioral
support.
So I think that's one of thetimes when I thought, wow, we're
not doing that.
We want to do more of that.
(32:49):
Let's see if we can work withthem.
So I feel like when there'ssituations like that, I always
think, well, this is a win.
They want to learn.
Maybe they're not where I wouldlike them to be today.
But if that willingness andreadiness is there, then that's
the space that I want to
Speaker 01 (33:03):
be in.
Maggie Haraburda (33:06):
Worst situation was probably a couple
of years ago.
I was in a school in Philly, anapproved private school.
And just the strategies thatthey were using were awful.
I mean, very, very on the lineof abusive.
And I was trying to just makeas many as possible.
little change as I could atthat time.
(33:26):
But I didn't do it in a waythat was slow enough.
So I ended up highlighting allthe parts of the child's IEP
that they were ignoring and notimplementing.
And I sent it to the principal.
And I was asked not to comeback.
So it was a good experience.
(34:06):
Do
Dan Lowery (34:12):
you find that that's particularly re-triggering or
triggering for you, just basedon maybe your own experiences in
the past and how you may relateto those people that are, you
call it being borderline abused,or maybe it's not even to that
extreme, but the people that arenot being treated with the
respect and dignity that youwould expect them to be treated
with?
Maggie Haraburda (34:33):
Definitely.
I mean, you know, most of thestaff at unfurling littles is
also neurodivergent.
And so I have to be reallycareful about the spaces in
which we we go into, becauseeven something like, you know,
working towards pottyindependence, we're in a school
now, and the teachers are beingvery intrusive and physically
forcing the child to go and siton the potty.
And we're saying we can't be apart of this.
(34:54):
But I've had conversations withthe staff where it's really
hard for them to watch that.
And same for me, if I seesomeone not honor a child's
Yeah.
That's
Mike Rubio (35:34):
a really important point.
And I think I'm going to try totake sort of a simple premise
that you just discussed.
But I think that in beingclient-led or child-directed,
people often think that there'sthis general permissiveness.
They sort of go to, oh, letthem do whatever they want.
What you're discussing thereand saying a child, hey, so
we're in a classroom, reasonablyso, based on logistics.
(35:56):
We have a bathroom schedule.
Now it's time to go to thebathroom.
Oh, now you're saying no.
Okay, that's acceptable.
However, I see you clenchingyour legs together.
You're dancing around.
I think you need to go.
Describe to us kind of yourbest practice there in terms of
being a mindful, observant adultwho can say, hey, I really
(36:18):
think you need to go to thebathroom, Johnny, but I'm still
listening to your no.
I think that's confusing forpeople in terms of just, okay,
so Johnny didn't say yes rightaway.
That's not the end of theworld.
And yes, I know that you've got12 other students over here,
but you're going to have to comeback to Johnny and ask him
again, especially because yes,he does wet his pants and you
see that he needs to go, buthe's really engaged in the
(36:40):
blocks.
And right now he doesn't wantto.
What's, I don't know if you candescribe your best practice
there.
Maggie Haraburda (36:46):
Yeah, I think it's the piece that's really
hard for people is the time.
They want compliance now.
Now.
Right?
And they're not willing towait.
And so I think in thosesituations, it is what you
described.
Thank you for telling me now.
And really then that for me iswhen the detective work starts.
Like that's as a BCB, that'swhen our job begins.
And I think we've beenpracticing in such a lazy way up
(37:08):
to now where it's like, well,child said no.
I forced them to go.
You do what I say.
Speaker 01 (37:12):
Yeah.
Maggie Haraburda (37:14):
I made the behavior change.
What did you do?
But the repercussions of thatare so high.
So then I need to figure outwhy did they say no?
Why was it a no?
Do they not have enoughpreparation time?
Do they not know where we'regoing?
Is it really loud in thebathroom?
Do we need to find a bathroomthat's quieter?
And really starting to examinewhy the child might have said
(37:35):
no.
And so I think it's so hard toeven talk about what I would do
in that situation because Iwould want to have the
background and the history ofwhy they might be saying no.
Speaker 01 (37:44):
Maybe
Maggie Haraburda (37:45):
they're saying no just because Just because
that's their response whensomeone asks them to do
anything.
So maybe we can diffuse withsome humor in that moment.
Like, no, no, no to thebathroom.
A lot of times when I'm workingwith kids, even just playfully
responding to their no, ofletting them know I heard that
you said no.
Some of them, I think, justwant to say no to move towards
(38:07):
that yearning of autonomy.
Speaker 01 (38:10):
And
Maggie Haraburda (38:10):
so I think that's where the...
Yeah.
So that detective
Mike Rubio (38:21):
work of like, why is it?
No.
And what, what can I as a BCPAfind out by doing my job?
And that can be difficult forpeople.
(38:44):
And in that moment, we run therisk of being overly
authoritarian without any need,right?
Nobody's going to die or gethurt.
Okay, so a five-year-old wetstheir pants.
Is that completely uncommon?
No, it isn't.
It happens all over the worldevery day.
But I like that.
Even though that distinctionbetween saying autonomy versus
me saying, well, the child justwants to control, which means
(39:07):
that by saying that, I want tocontrol them.
That changes the whole premise.
That's no longer aninteraction.
It's one direction.
It's not an exchange.
Again, those nuances, we cancut up in semantics.
And then I think the semantics,like in this case, just have a
lot of value to them.
Yeah.
You got some questions.
(39:27):
Dan's got his questions.
He's getting his phone.
I do have some questions.
He promised he wasn't texting.
He's not a chronic texter.
Dan Lowery (39:34):
Anything else, Maggie, on the masking piece?
I really appreciate that comingfrom somebody like yourself
that can kind of see both sides.
Well, actually, let me go backone second because I do have a
question on the masking piece.
Is there a level of maskingthat, or how would you describe
the level of masking that's donekind of in just general
(39:55):
society?
So, I don't know, if I'm on anairplane, it may be
inappropriate.
I could even, I don't know ifget arrested is to get kicked
off of the plane.
If I go up and like yell and Idon't know, strip naked or
something like that, which mayor may not be something that I
want to do at that time, butthere's certain like behavioral
repertoires that are appropriateto certain areas.
(40:15):
So maybe that's a level ofmasking that we all do at some
point in time versus forcingsomebody to be who they don't
want to be for the satisfactionof myself.
Can you talk a little bit aboutthat?
Because sometimes we have to,or we choose to mask, right?
Everybody?
Maggie Haraburda (40:36):
Yeah, I think, again, it all goes back to that
harm reduction space, right?
There are spaces in which wehave to mask in order to ensure
the safety, well-being ofourselves and others, but making
sure that we have safe spacesin which we can fully unmask.
And I think that's what it is.
The answer is not nevermasking, but the answer is
having the choice to mask whenit's needed in order for safety.
(40:58):
And I think that...
it's not as black and white asa lot of people would want it to
be.
Maybe the child who's wantingto scream, what can we give them
so they can not get to thatpoint?
Because maybe that is adysregulated child.
Maybe if we had given them moresensory regulation before
(41:20):
getting on the airplane, theywouldn't have been escalated to
that point.
And so I think it's aboutreally figuring out what what
degree of unmasking is thischild able to do in order to
still stay safe in thisenvironment?
Dan Lowery (41:36):
So what you're saying is, if we were to take a
continuum, there's a percentageof time that we individuals with
autism, neurotypicalindividuals, spend masking and a
percentage of time we spendunmasking.
Historically, society hasexpected individuals on the
autism spectrum to spend alarger portion of time masking
than unmasking, and that wasvery harmful.
(41:57):
So we're not saying that we'recompletely going 100% unmasking,
but we're saying we need to tipthe scales a little bit more
towards that end because we'vebeen far closer to 100% masking,
which has caused harm.
Is that an accurate statement?
Maggie Haraburda (42:11):
Yeah, I think so.
And I think it's also gettingcurious about if a child is
unmasked in a place where youmight not typically see someone
unmasked, are we wanting them tomask for their safety or for
our own benefit?
And I think that's where theline can get blurred of I would
never want to send the messagethat someone should mask in
(42:32):
order to appease someone else.
But it's a different story whenit's for their safety or
well-being in certain situationsor settings.
Dan Lowery (42:41):
And then how would you, absolutely, that makes so
much sense.
The president of the company Iworked for, Proact, really, I
use this like every podcast, butshe has a statement, whose
needs are we meeting when?
And so often we're focused onour needs, not our clients'
needs of just having that personnot scream in my ear or it
(43:02):
bothers me when they hitthemselves.
So I want to get the feeling ofthem being okay by them stop
hitting themselves, focused onour needs, not why are they
hitting themselves or why arethey screaming.
Use the term unmasking.
So How could you make thatvisual for, say, a parent or
something like that?
Because you've talked aboutmaybe somebody being
(43:23):
rambunctious and running aroundthe corner of a room or
something like that beingunmasking.
Would you define maybe somebodyhitting themselves in the head?
How do you define unmasking?
Maggie Haraburda (43:35):
So for me, I think it's about listening to
what signals your body issending you.
and allowing yourself to engagein those.
So like one of the first timesafter my diagnosis that I could,
like tangibly feel myselfunmasking was after an Eagles
game.
Go birds.
Super Bowl champion Eagles.
We were waiting for SEPTA tocome to take us home on the
(44:00):
train.
And it was super loud.
It was bright.
It smelled terrible.
And I was really uncomfortable.
And so I noticed that I wasuncomfortable and that I started
to like move my body in a waythat was regulating for myself.
And then I was able to stay inthat environment while I was
moving in order to stayregulated.
So that was one of the firsttimes I was like, wow, i didn't
(44:22):
come home and just completelyfall apart because like for
parents a lot of the families wework with their kids come home
and they're falling apart andthat's happening because they're
spending such a high percentageof their day masking right that
they come home and they're justcompletely dysregulated and
have to then figure out a way tore-regulate themselves so in
that situation had i not movedmy body in a way that was
(44:43):
regulating while waiting forsepta i probably would have come
home and been a complete bearto my husband because i was
dysregulated so does Does thatanswer your question?
It does.
I've seen a picture of whatthat's like.
Dan Lowery (44:54):
It does.
I just want to be clear to whatMike was saying.
And I want to understand, in noway am I challenging what
you're saying, that let's saywe're sitting down to do
homework or something like that,sitting down to do whatever
task or about to do a task, andthe individual maybe runs away
or does something like that.
(45:15):
Would you call that unmasking?
Because they're expressingthemselves?
Go ahead.
Maggie Haraburda (45:21):
Well, my first question is why would they need
to sit down to do the task?
Because I think that's thefirst piece that might encourage
them to mask.
Like, well, they have to beengaged by sitting in a chair to
do their work, where I rarelywork at a desk.
I'm typically laid on the floorvertical is how I work best, or
standing.
So I think that's the firstpiece we're thinking of, because
(45:44):
that child in that moment, ifthey run away, to me, that's
maybe not as much unmasking asthem not assenting to sitting
down.
They didn't assent to sittinghere.
How can we restructure thistask in a way that they can
still be regulated and accesswhatever the learning
opportunity is?
Mike Rubio (46:03):
Man, what a cool dichotomy, right?
So the moment that child standsup, somebody's going to say
that child is no longer able tolearn because of my traditional
view here.
And you're saying that child'ssimply not assenting to sitting.
That's, I mean, that is just asuch a contrast to wrap your
mind around but it's soimportant because i mean you're
(46:24):
absolutely right that it's ait's a preconceived notion that
learning looks like this and ifthe moment that you don't fit
into that now you'renon-compliant and now i run the
risk of of uh of you know sayingthat you're fooling around as
opposed to you're expressing aneed and you're getting it and
then as soon as i can see thatyou're ready maybe i'm able to
(46:45):
offer you this SD and yourespond and you do the item on
the worksheet and now wereinforce you likely by allowing
you to continue to unmask orfool around, however we want to
put that.
But again, it's such a slipperyslope.
It's a very basic premise.
It's very parsimonious.
And then based on traditionalnotions of discipline, it breaks
(47:06):
all the rules.
It really just breaks all therules.
Anyway.
Yeah.
Dan Lowery (47:11):
No, thank you for answering that.
You really put things in aninteresting perspective and the
way you word them is something Iprobably wouldn't have thought
of.
So we learned so much speakingwith you.
So thank you for answeringthat.
So we talked about the socialversus the medical model of
disability.
Talked about it a little bitwith Michelle.
A parent actually brought thatup.
(47:31):
We did a...
We do a presentation forparents from parents with
individuals on the spectrum onkind of just what it's like to
go through getting thediagnosis, what they would
recommend kind of being on theother end.
And one of them brought up thedifference between the social
versus the medical model ofdisability.
Are you familiar with that,Maggie?
Maggie Haraburda (47:51):
Yeah, yeah, I am.
Like the distinct semanticsright now of it are escaping me.
But yeah, I'm familiar with theconcept.
So
Dan Lowery (47:58):
yeah, basically a lot of times because we're
funded by medical insurances, atleast initially, it seems like
our insurances are under themedical model.
And the medical modeloftentimes operates on, you have
a diagnosis, we're going togive you some treatment in the
idea that we're going to fix oralleviate this diagnosis.
That's what the traditionalmedical model goes with.
(48:20):
Now, obviously in ABA, we'renot that rigid, but that's what
the medical model is.
Whereas the social model is,it's just society not
necessarily set up for theseindividuals.
And it's not necessarily justthe individual individuals that
needs to receive the treatment,but society itself or that
environment needs the treatmentso that they can better
(48:41):
accommodate for the individual.
Now, obviously it's not 100% ofeither one, but do you have any
thoughts on kind of thatbalance between the social
versus the medical model ofdisability?
Maggie Haraburda (48:52):
Yeah, I mean, I think we have to play the
game, right?
That's how I always think ofit, because we do work with
insurance funders.
And I think that as a company,we just get creative in the way
that we're expressing what thischild's challenges and strengths
are.
And so even like in our sessionnotes, you know, they want you
to talk about those coreDeficits, right.
(49:21):
In this situation, semanticsdoes matter.
Speaker 01 (49:35):
And
Maggie Haraburda (49:36):
the way that we're talking about these kids,
the way that we're writing goalsto support them.
But I think the way you meldthe two is by how you're writing
the goals so if it's that thegoal is for the child to
participate in circle timeinstead of just writing the
child will participate in circletime for five minutes because
(49:56):
that's like a societyexpectation maybe you'll say
with unlimited access toregulation tools and while
honoring a sense withdrawalchild will participate right and
so it's that slight shift ofyou know how can we not only
look at the child's behavior butthe environment in order to
support the child's behaviorbecause that they're regulated
at circle time, that's muchdifferent than just
(50:20):
participating in circle time,right?
Mike Rubio (50:23):
This concludes part one of our interview with Maggie
Haraberta.
Please do return for part twoand
Dan Lowery (50:31):
always analyze responsibly.
Mike Rubio (50:34):
ABA on Tap is recorded live and unfiltered.
We're done for today.
You don't have to go home, butyou can't stay here.
See you next time.
Speaker 01 (01:42:33):
ABA on Tap
Mike Rubio (01:42:35):
is recorded live and unfiltered.
We're done for today.
You don't have to go home, butyou can't stay here.
See you next time.
Welcome to ABA on Tap, where our goal is to find
the best recipe to brew thesmoothest, coldest, and best
tasting ABA around.
I'm Dan Lowry with Mike Rubio,and join us on our journey as we
(00:23):
look back into the ingredientsto form the best concoction of
ABA on tap.
In this podcast, we will talkabout the history of the ABA
brew, how much to consume toachieve the optimum buzz while
not getting too drunk, and therecommended pairings to bring to
the table.
(00:43):
So without further ado, sitback, relax, and always analyze
responsibly.
Mike Rubio (00:53):
And welcome back to yet another installment of ABA
OnTap.
I am your very gratefulco-host, Mike Rubio, along with
Mr.
Daniel Lowry.
Mr.
Dan, good to see you, sir.
Dan Lowery (01:04):
Great to see you as well.
How are you doing?
Mike Rubio (01:06):
Feeling good, feeling good.
Recovering, a little bit ofillness.
I think it's going around.
We'll talk maybe with our guestabout that as well.
But things are going well.
How are you doing, sir?
Dan Lowery (01:16):
Doing great.
Really excited for thispodcast.
This has been a long timecoming.
We've We met this young lady afew months ago and I've been
eager to get her on the podcastand today is the day.
Mike Rubio (01:27):
Yep.
So we are very proud to haveMaggie Haraberta as our guest
today.
She is the founder, director ofUnfurling Littles, a program
that I know a lot about withvery little exposure and I'm
very excited to have ourlisteners learn more about.
One of the things, so we got achance to meet Maggie at the
(01:50):
CPABA conference back in Octoberof 2024 and quite frankly it
was my first experience meetingan autistic BCBA so it was a
real pleasure to have Maggie bethat first along with Michelle
Zeman who but we met both of youduring that conference and just
a very very unique perspectiveso without further ado Maggie
(02:13):
thank you for your time weappreciate you taking time on a
Sunday which is when we recordto hang out with us we'd like to
start with the origin story sotell us all about you.
Please kick right in.
Maggie Haraburda (02:24):
Sure.
Thanks so much for having me,guys.
I'm excited for thisconversation.
So yeah, I'm Maggie.
I am the founder and clinicaldirector of Enferling Littles.
And I got into this field thefield of ABA because I wanted to
disrupt what was happening andhelp to shift the field to be
more neurodiversity firming,more accepting, and a little bit
(02:47):
more compassionate.
So to back up a little bit, Idid talk till I was in three.
I was in conventional speechtherapy.
I had a lot of what felt likejust othering myself.
Like I felt like I never reallyfit in, never really understood
the way that other peopleworked.
I was diagnosed with anxiety asa kid.
And I just, yeah, had thatconstant feeling of like, I just
(03:10):
don't quite get it.
Like everyone felt like theywere going one way and I was
going in the other direction andthat stuck throughout my
childhood.
And I think that feeling reallystarted to be internalized the
older I got.
So when I was 12 years old, Ideveloped an eating disorder.
And then by 16, I was a fullblown alcoholic, experienced
(03:32):
many instances of being indangerous situations and failed
to pick up on those like socialcues that I was unsafe.
And so While I was goingthrough that, I felt like it was
the only way that I couldregulate myself.
I was constantly feelingdysregulated and didn't know how
else to calm what I wasexperiencing besides drinking.
(03:53):
And when I was 22, I finallygot sober.
So I got sober very young, andI've been sober since then.
I just turned 30 this year.
Shout
Mike Rubio (04:00):
out to
Maggie Haraburda (04:00):
you for that.
Mike Rubio (04:01):
Congratulations.
That's a lot of work.
Maggie Haraburda (04:03):
Thank you.
That's a lot
Mike Rubio (04:04):
of work.
Maggie Haraburda (04:04):
Thank you.
Yeah, during that time, though,I was I went to school in the
University of Vermont, and I wasstudying to be an early
childhood special educator.
And I was working as a personalcare assistant for a six year
old child who was not speaking.
And I felt safer with him thanI had ever felt with anyone in
my entire life.
(04:24):
And, you know, he wasn'tspeaking at the time.
But when I was with him, I justfelt that safety and security
that I had long sought throughthe relationships in my life.
And when I moved back toPhiladelphia in, let's see, what
was that?
2018.
I started working in earlyintervention and went on to get
(04:45):
my master's in EPA.
And really, the only reason Iwent through with working in
this field is because ofacceptance and commitment
therapy or ACT.
That's really what drew me toit.
And I thought, well, you know,if this is a part of the field,
then maybe I can pallet this andhelp to make shift.
And then I found ProjectImpact, which is a naturalistic
developmental behaviorintervention and TBI.
(05:06):
And yeah, I joined the fieldand I, pretty quickly started
working with the middle schoolpopulation and was doing
primarily ACT.
And I was working with a middleschool girl who said to me, are
you autistic?
She said, you're just like me.
Everything you describe,everything you talk about, I
(05:27):
relate so much to you.
Like, are you on the spectrumtoo?
And I said, you know, I haven'treally thought about it, but
maybe.
And that kind of planted theseed to start to explore my own
neurodiversity.
And then I went on to move inwith my now husband who picked
up on things I did that I didn'tknow wasn't necessarily
typical.
And so he really encouraged meto seek an evaluation as well.
(05:51):
And I worked with this amazingpsychologist here in Philly, Dr.
Robert Nassif, and I shared mystory with him, like I just
shared with you guys.
And he said to me that I justdescribed the female autistic
experience, these instances ofeating disorder, alcoholism,
assault, like it's so common inpeople.
autistic females.
(06:12):
And that was a couple yearsago.
And it's been really, reallywonderful to understand the way
that my brain works andoperates.
And when I got my diagnosis, itwas like my mom got hers as
well.
So she's also on the spectrum.
Yeah, friends and the family,apparently.
Two for one.
Yeah, yeah, two for one.
Friends and the family.
(06:33):
I've heard
Mike Rubio (06:34):
that.
I've heard that.
Maggie Haraburda (06:36):
Yeah.
Mike Rubio (06:37):
That whole genetics thing, right?
Maggie Haraburda (06:39):
Yeah.
Yeah, exactly.
Yeah.
So yeah, that's a little bitabout my story and how I got
here.
A
Mike Rubio (06:46):
huge relief for you in that sense.
I'll put that in contrast to alot of early intervention
experiences that I might haveprofessionally where this is a
huge concern, unexpected lifeevent for some people.
For you, I mean, so forparents, it can be devastating
and rightfully so, we canunderstand why.
(07:07):
You, in contrast, it was arelief.
to find out.
Maggie Haraburda (07:13):
Is that fair to say?
And I think absolutely.
I mean, huge relief.
And when I do a lot of freespeaks on neurodiversity
affirming care, and one of thebiggest things I say is if you
think your child has anotherneurotype, like please seek an
evaluation to spare them what Iwent through.
I think if I had known that Ioperated in a different capacity
(07:33):
and it's not bad, it's justdifferent.
I don't think I would have hadto go through what I went
through to get where I am today.
Dan Lowery (07:41):
Interesting, because it's always, you know, as
somebody who's not on thespectrum, or at least not
diagnosed on the spectrum, ithas been something that's been
difficult to broach, I think,with a lot of families.
So I guess my question to you,Maggie, is can you expand on
that?
Because the day before yourdiagnosis, you had, I'm sure you
had the same Personality typeis the day after.
(08:03):
So the diagnosis doesn't changeanything about you, but what,
what did it, did it allow you tolike compartmentalize or
explain or make sense of things?
And if so, what things likewithout getting, you don't have
to be specific about thebehaviors, but like, how did,
how did it help?
Because it's just a label,right?
Somebody gave to you.
Maggie Haraburda (08:24):
Yeah, I mean, even thinking back to some of my
earliest memories, like Iremember having this, this girl
come over for a play date.
And I was probably in firstgrade.
And I think it was one of myfirst play dates.
And I knew that she likedscience, like she liked bugs and
insects.
And so I thought, well, I likebugs and insects, then that
means that we can be friends.
So I went and I got all thesebooks about bugs and insects,
(08:46):
and I played them all around thefloor.
So and pretended to read themwhen she came over.
Because I thought if we hadthis, this connection, then then
that means we that were friendsso I think back to that like if
I had understood like I youknow how friendship worked like
some of those like some simplethings that people who are
neurotypical might take forgranted that's just information
(09:06):
they have like there were somany times where if I had had
more information I don't think Iwould have suffered like
another example is every day atlunch in elementary school I
would spill my milk I just haveno proprio receptive awareness
okay and I'm talking and myhands are flying all over the
place I'm crashing things overand every day I spill my milk
and my friends would get soupset get up leave the table and
(09:28):
I didn't know why or like whatI was doing wrong but if I had
the wherewithal back then to sayoh I'm I just have no body
awareness.
You know, I can bring humor toit.
I can bring some diffusion andI can also bring some acceptance
for my friends that I'm notdoing this intentionally.
I literally don't know where mybody is in space at any given
moment.
Mike Rubio (09:47):
Well, that's fascinating.
I mean, just the affirmation,the idea that this is why this
happens and now we don't have towonder about it or, I mean,
people can still be disparagingabout it, but at least now
they're making a choice to do soas opposed to being curious
just like you what's going onhere?
Yeah.
That's so fascinating.
It's, it's this, I'm not doingthis on purpose.
(10:08):
I'm not trying to, you know, infact, I'm, I'm excited to talk
to you.
So my hands are moving.
I, I gesticulate too.
So I get that.
I get that for sure.
Dan Lowery (10:15):
I have one more question with that.
Did it help you understand yourbehaviors better or did it help
you understand other people'sbehaviors better?
Cause there's a difference,right?
And between your behaviors andother people's behaviors in
those regards of like what afriendship would be.
So what, which, Did it lead youto more internalize of, okay, I
(10:35):
feel like I need to now, notneed to, but I feel like it
would benefit me to exploremaybe the way that they're doing
things differently, or did ithelp you now be able to explain
to other people so that they canaccommodate for maybe your
thought processes andperspectives?
Maggie Haraburda (10:55):
I think that it helped me more than anything
understand myself and then alsounderstand why people responded
to me the way they did.
Like in middle school, forexample, I was voted most
interesting, which really justmeans weirdest.
And I understand that now it'sbecause like at that point, my
masking wasn't as severe as itbecame in high school.
(11:17):
And so I think the biggestthing I would have gained with
an earlier diagnosis is I moreresources to regulate myself.
I have this huge stack ofdemerits that I would get for
chewing gum, but I was oralsensory seeking.
And so the gum was anaccommodation that I had given
myself, but was punished by thepeople around me.
(11:40):
So if they'd known, oh, she isautistic and she might have
difficulties with sensoryprocessing, maybe this could be
an accommodation we could put inplace for something that we
would need to punish her for.
Even thinking about autism myold report cards you know she's
constantly moving or she's gotto sit still she needs to focus
like those would have been greatopportunities for me to have an
(12:03):
accommodation like maybe i havea wiggle seat or a fidget
something that can i can useinstead of just telling myself
stop moving stay still staystill stay still like stop being
who you are
Dan Lowery (12:14):
that makes sense so it like becomes less
personalized of why do I feelthis way and why is somebody not
connecting with me?
And then you get theexplanation and now it allows
you that ability to understandwhy that might be the case.
Maggie Haraburda (12:30):
Yeah, exactly.
Mike Rubio (12:31):
Will you expand on masking a little bit?
Because that's an interestingconcept.
The way you speak about it,it's in terms of your own
volition or choice to...
mask certain things you do incertain settings, that sounds
okay.
Now the idea that ABAtraditionally may have
encroached or forced maskingupon certain individuals, that's
(12:55):
a really important difference.
So it's not masking yes or no,it's masking, if this is fair to
say, based on the individual'sdecision to do so.
And then, and sometimes it'sgoing to be based on the greater
you know willingness to just gowith the flow and okay so
somebody's making movements thatare a little bit unorthodox to
use that term what's the matterwhy are we so caught up in it so
(13:19):
even diagnostically the ideathat initially you know I'm
saying be who you are I thinkthere was a you know with all
due respect a traditional notionthat stereotypy for example we
can make that go awaybehaviorally and what we're
talking about here is completelydifferent this is masking based
on the individual's volitionwhat's your thought on that
Maggie Haraburda (13:38):
I think it's really complex.
And for me, I always thinkabout what is the message that
I'm sending during myinteractions.
I talk a lot aboutmicroaggressions with the
teachers that I work with.
So saying things like, wow,you're really making a lot of
eye contact today, or you'rereally staying still at circle
(14:00):
time.
And those things can be seen asreinforcing reinforcement.
But what it's reallyreinforcing is the child's
ability to mask their needs.
And so instead, I have, I'llcoach them to use acceptance
phrases, such as like, I seeyou, I hear you, What can I
provide to you?
What do you need?
And so helping them see it'sokay if you need to fidget,
(14:20):
wiggle, and move.
I'm not going to send themessage that that's bad because
that's innately what your bodyis telling you that you need to
be doing.
So I think it's the idea ofmasking for me is that I'm
transitioning into this phase ofunmasking and seeking to ask
for the accommodations that Ididn't have growing up.
(14:41):
And There's times at which Imight choose to mask, whether
it's for my safety, for mywell-being, for the way I'm
perceived professionally.
So I think the important pieceabout masking is that it is up
to the individual.
And so as a company, we have apolicy that we will not
encourage or reinforce maskingof any kind.
(15:02):
That being said, if I'm workingwith a middle schooler who
says, I want to learn how to doX, Y, and Z, I always talk to
them that engaging in thosebehaviors isn't innately bad.
And masking who you are at yourcore can lead to negative
mental health outcomes.
So I think when we're workingwith older children, I'm always
(15:25):
making sure that they're awareof if you do choose to mask,
that is your choice.
But I need you to make surethat you also have spaces in
which you can unmask to fully beyourself.
Dan Lowery (15:35):
Excellent.
I've got to process thatmicroaggressions piece.
That was really interesting.
I've got to let that processbecause I've never heard it
explained like that.
Let's say somebody's at circletime or doing work or something
like that.
Some of the maybe traditionalmicroaggressions you would hear
(15:56):
people do.
I think you said nice jobsitting still.
or things of that nature, theeye contact makes a lot of
sense.
Can you think of some othertraditional ones?
Because I gotta try toimplement this into my practice
and make sure that I'm notinadvertently doing that.
And thank you for making meaware.
Maggie Haraburda (16:13):
Yeah, I think it's like the calm body.
I hear a lot, thank you forhaving a calm body.
Thank you for showing me thatyou're ready to learn.
I don't think people aremalintentions when they're
saying those things, but whatit's really conveying is I like
you better when you have a calmbody.
I prefer you when you'reengaging in this type of
(16:33):
behavior instead of that one.
And so I think it's reallyimportant that we're thinking
about those things as minute asthey may feel.
I'm always thinking about what,how am I making this child feel
and what I'm saying and whatmessage am I sending to them?
Mike Rubio (16:49):
The way you put it was interesting, right?
Hey, I can see you.
I can hear you.
Does that mean in your opinion,the teacher can then ask about
that can you see me or can youhear me right now is that okay
would you feel and that's thewhole point i think what teacher
is trying to say in that momentis is i think the good intent
(17:10):
is if you have a calm body theni if you're looking at me with a
calm body and you're activelistening or whatever phrasing
people might use the idea isthat i feel like you have the
best chance of listening to meright now.
And that may not be the casefor any given individual.
That's just our perceptionthat, you know, yes, the idea
that I can look at somebody, youknow, dead in the face and they
(17:33):
think I'm actively listening,but my mind might still be
drifting.
We just have this assumptionthat that's the way active
listening looks.
And what you're saying is, no,no, that could be very
different.
It's the idea that maybe youraffirming language is, hey, I'm
trying to make a connection withyou somehow.
So if I can see you and hearyou and you can see me and hear
me, then we're good.
Is that fair to say?
Maggie Haraburda (17:54):
Well, I think it's that we have this idea of
what engagement looks like.
Y es, we do.
That it looks like someoneorienting and focused.
Staring at you right in theface,
Mike Rubio (18:02):
right?
Maggie Haraburda (18:04):
Exactly.
But if I'm doing that, you cannotice when I'm talking, I'm not
looking right at you guys.
I'm talking and I'm lookingaround because if I'm focused on
looking right at you, I am mostlikely dissociating and not
focusing on anything else exceptfor where my eyes are in space.
So when I'm in session withautistic children, typically
(18:25):
we're moving all around theroom.
We're not looking at eachother, but we're having
extremely active conversation.
That's really dynamic becausewe're giving our bodies what
they need in order to stayregulated so we can access the
conversation and the engagement.
Yeah.
So I think it's, like I'llusually redefine for the kids
I'm supporting of what doesengagement look like for them?
(18:46):
Cause it's gonna look differentfor every kid.
Like for a child at circletime, like something the teacher
might do to show acceptance isif they do need to wiggle and
move in order to access circletime, maybe they give them a
special space that they can sitin so they won't bump into other
people, but they can still gettheir needs met.
Maybe they have, if they seethe child is fidgeting with
(19:10):
their hands or looksuncomfortable, maybe they hands
them a fidget and just said, Isee you.
This is here if you need it,right?
Is that sending the message?
It's okay if you need to dothis.
It's not bad.
And it's accepted from me inthis space.
Thanks.
Dan Lowery (19:24):
I remember I was in college and there was a
professor that kind ofsubliminally did a test on us.
He was presenting one day andhe said, I want you all to count
how many times they say, uh, asI deliver this message in the
next.
And then people counted it.
And then he's like, what did Italk about?
Nobody knew what he talkedabout because it was like your
brain could only focus on one ofthe things.
(19:44):
And it kind of seems likethat's what you're saying.
If your brain is solely focusedon eye contact, calm body, you
might lose the total messagebecause you're spending all of
your brain space focusing onthat.
Yeah.
Is that accurate?
Maggie Haraburda (19:57):
Yeah, I think, yeah, absolutely.
Like I know for myself,sometimes at the end of the day,
I might just be spent from likeverbally communicating.
And so my husband and I mightsit quietly.
We might not have back andforth conversation.
Maybe I'll even message himsome thoughts that I'm thinking
while we're sitting on the couchinstead of verbally
communicating.
And there's always, if I'mhaving a deeper challenging
(20:19):
conversation, I'm rarely makingeye contact in those moments
because I need to stay focusedon the topic of what we're
discussing.
Dan Lowery (20:27):
I
Mike Rubio (20:28):
was just going to say this is fascinating.
I mean, what you described withyour husband, for example,
that's an amazing relationshippractice that maybe people
aren't aware enough aboutthemselves to shut up once in a
while.
Right?
So you guys are like, hey, Imean, you know, your excuse, so
to speak, is, hey, look, I'mautistic.
I need to do this.
I think a lot of people maybeare missing the fact that you
(20:50):
need to shut down sometimes andwe just need to sit together and
do nothing.
Because if we speak right now,I'm exhausted, you're agitated,
that might lead to.
I was just really fascinated byyou describing that.
I think it's greaterself-awareness where we might
look at it from a diagnosticperspective as a lesser
self-awareness in some points ifwe're not careful enough about
(21:10):
our thought process.
Anyway, thanks for sharingthat.
That was fascinating.
Dan Lowery (21:13):
Yeah, that's what I was basically going to say.
We both went to therelationship.
You have just an extremely highlevel of self-awareness and a
great way to articulate that,which I think bodes well in just
society in general, right?
Because maybe a lot of peoplearen't able to understand or
communicate on the level that alot of the maybe individuals
(21:34):
that are non-speakingcommunicate at.
So again, I don't know muchabout your husband.
The fact that you're able tosay potentially, husband, this
is what I need from you.
This is what I would appreciateverbally.
He probably understands thatand then can accommodate for
that.
And then your level ofawareness as well.
Now, for a lot of people whomight not have either that level
(21:57):
of awareness, but it's hard tosay what people have or don't
have.
It's easier to know what theycan articulate back to you.
Do you have any thoughts onthat for individuals that may
not have the verbal ability youhave to articulate that back?
Maggie Haraburda (22:13):
Yeah, I think it's about just really getting
back.
curious about what goes oninternally.
Like I know for us, after anactivity at the center or during
a session, I might saysomething like, I wonder how
that made you feel.
And I'm doing that to just drawtheir awareness to check in.
I'm like, huh, how did I feelafter X, Y, and Z happened?
(22:33):
And so I think that forchildren who are non-speaking,
it's the same thing.
Like we do a lot of notlabeling emotions.
I don't believe in just blanklylabeling someone's emotions,
but we'll draw their awarenessto their physical What does that
mean?
Like pulling back, pulling,like pulling back and saying
(22:55):
that if there was likewithdrawing their hands or
whatever it may be, but tryingto help them make the connection
of like when X stimuli wasthere, my body responded in this
way.
And I think that's really howyou make that behavior change
over time.
That's meaningful for thatperson.
And like, it took me time tohave that self-awareness, you
know, at times I might not know.
(23:16):
And then I might get short orsnappy with my husband versus if
I can say, Oh, I'm, I'm alittle dysregulated right now.
I think I need to take sometime for myself.
And we have this rule in ourhouse that just because we're in
the same room doesn't meanwe're hanging out.
And so we try to make sure ifwe are engaging, like checking
in before, like, do we have thecapacity to do this?
Or do we have the capacity todo this?
We just need to take some quietfor
Dan Lowery (23:38):
ourselves.
Well, dysregulation happens.
I mean, we all get dysregulatedall
Mike Rubio (23:42):
the time.
That's what I was saying.
We're not so aware of it or soapt to say it, right?
So otherwise, we give eachother the cold shoulder or the
silent treatment or whatever itis.
That means some level ofdysregulation and not
necessarily being aware of it.
That's why I'm so fascinated bythat premise.
I mean, it's fantastic.
Dan Lowery (24:01):
That is amazing.
My last question with themasking piece.
So that sounds, and we are soon board with what you're
saying.
You've been so integral to usstarting our own company and
things like that.
I'm sure we'll talk so muchabout that as we go through this
podcast because we are on, Ibelieve, the same exact
wavelength with how the servicescould best be delivered.
(24:23):
So you have a teacher in thissituation, and you were talking
about this in pertaining tomasking.
Maybe the child is runningaround, rambunctious, things
like that.
And maybe that teacher in thatsituation can be accommodating
and allow for that.
The way that, obviously,typical education is set up, and
(24:44):
we can talk about that probablyisn't the best way that it
should be, but it is for themost part is sitting down at a
chair and eye contact and thingslike that.
So do you find a difficulty intaking in a teaching structure
which is so much moreindividualized and child-focused
and focused on that one person.
And then at some point helpingthat individual transition to a
(25:08):
more, what could be calledstructured or traditional
education setting.
Is that something you advocatefor?
And if so, do you have anydifficulty with that transition?
Hopefully that made sense.
Maggie Haraburda (25:18):
So it does.
I think a lot of the work thatI do is harm reduction.
I can't change every space inwhich a child will enter, but I
can change the spaces that I cancontrol.
And so when children areentering into those more typical
settings and structures, Ialways make sure that A, they're
(25:39):
not the only neurodivergentperson in that room, and B, that
if they're going to be in thatsetting, they have the ability
to advocate for theaccommodations that they need.
And so I think when we'rethinking about things like
accommodations, it is up to theindividual to self-advocate for
what they need.
But until they're able to dothat, then it's our job as
(26:00):
therapists, behavior analysts,technicians, whoever it may be,
parents, to advocate for thoseneeds so that they're able to
access that environment.
I think a lot about, are youguys familiar with universal
design for learning?
No.
Dan Lowery (26:15):
No.
Maggie Haraburda (26:16):
Okay, so Universal Design for Learning
thinks about the ways that wecan make these things that are
unanimously available for peopleat all times.
And so I've been thinking a lotabout universal design for
regulation.
So having the accommodations inplace so that someone doesn't
need to ask for them, meaning,you know, fidgets are great for
all humans, not just people whoare neurodivergent.
So keep a basket of fidgetsreadily available for everyone.
(26:39):
Same with flexible seating,have a variety of flexible
seating options available forall humans.
So when we're thinking about inthe spaces that these kids
might go into, I think thequestion is, Are they able to
differentiate how people aregoing to respond to them?
So we have a child now that wesupport in a typical school
(27:00):
environment.
And when I arrive, the teachersoften get upset because he will
start to unmask.
He starts to wiggle more.
He starts to fidget more.
And so when I go into thatspace, I am encouraging him to
take a break from masking and tounmask.
And then I'm trying to educatethe teachers on that.
That's what's happening in thismoment.
The child is not acting out nowthat I'm here, he is feeling
(27:23):
safe enough because I'm here tounmask.
So I think that there's a longway to go in terms of these
environments and having teacherslike that that are willing to
work with me.
But as I said earlier, I dothese free trainings in our
diversity, affirming care.
And this year I did one in oneof the biggest school districts
around us.
And so there is changehappening in typical education.
(27:45):
I think it's just a lot slowerthan we need it.
Dan Lowery (27:51):
I was going to say that makes a lot of sense.
Assuming the teachers arewilling to work half the time,
it's hard, especially withgeneral education teachers, to
get them to follow what's in anIEP.
I can't tell you how many timesI've heard, yeah, it's in the
IEP, but that's not how we dothings in my classroom.
I mean, that's unfortunate, butthat's what we run into
(28:14):
sometimes.
So the more we can educatepeople, I think that's just
amazing.
Mike Rubio (28:19):
What's...
You know, what's the trick?
I'm sure you speak to all sortsof educators, and that's a
really fine line betweenunmasking and fooling around.
Speaker 01 (28:31):
Yeah.
Mike Rubio (28:32):
You know, that's got to be tough to discern.
You are, you know, Mrs.
Smith.
You've been teaching for 30years.
What can Maggie Haraburda teachme?
This kid's just noncompliantand needs to be disciplined.
And that's...
That's a tough line.
That's hard because we'reapproaching it from a sense of
(28:55):
uniformity.
You're coming in and you'regoing, no, clearly it doesn't
work for Johnny or whoever.
I mean, we can see that.
And the more you try to forcethem into it, it doesn't mean
it's going to get any better.
So what do you find are yourstrategies to try and educate
those people who do have a lotof experience but are walking
(29:16):
that fine line between unmaskingand fooling around?
Maggie Haraburda (29:21):
So I have a rule for myself that I only
educate those who want to learnand further from once are ready
and have the capacity to learnand change.
So at my company, we screen theschools we go into to see where
they are in their journey ofneurodiversity affirming care.
And we're not afraid to say,no, this is not a good setting
(29:44):
for us to provide services in.
And so that's to support...
My own regulation and ourstaff's, because if we're
constantly in spaces in whichwe're fighting, we don't get to
do the work.
That's so meaningful.
We don't get to actuallysupport these kids.
And so for me, I go into spacesin which people want to listen
and which people want to change.
(30:04):
And, you know, I often think.
um, what side of history do Iwant to be on?
Right?
Like, do I want to be in theseenvironments where I'm not
really making change or do Iwant to be in the spaces that
fully want to accept this, thisideological ideology and make
those changes?
Um, and so when I think when Istarted to say no in spaces, I
(30:28):
saw that we were invited morefrequently into the spaces that
were ready to say yes to thistype of interaction style.
Um, And I think that's what alot of people in our field are
really scared of is saying no toa family or saying no to a
school environment and justaccepting that this might not be
a space in which I can makemeaningful change.
(30:48):
I also think a lot aboutmicro-shaping and we're
constantly micro-shapingpeople's behavior to be more
affirming.
And so if we are in a spacethat's not very affirming, what
are the small, very smallchanges we can start to make in
order to help shift thingsforward?
But for me, the risk is to highin working in spaces that
(31:09):
aren't going to be affirmingwhen, you know, there was a
recent study that came out in2019 that nine out of 10
autistic females have beenassaulted.
And if you're autistic orneurodivergent, you are two to
three times more likely toexperience trauma.
So for me, the risk is too highin continuing to engage and to
be a part of those spaces thataren't affirming these kids.
Dan Lowery (31:32):
Saying no, that's amazing.
Like saying no, I'm not goingto work in your setting.
I wish that happened moreoften.
Mike Rubio (31:40):
Well, it takes, I mean, from a fiscal perspective,
that can be difficult forpeople.
That's the challenge is theytake anything that comes our way
because you're looking to, Imean, yes, there's a fiscal
drive and then you're looking tomake a change.
And then to Maggie's point,oftentimes those situations, we
end up overextended and actuallynot you know, making a change
(32:02):
and overworking staff and, youknow, things like that.
Give us your best and worst.
Give us your most pleasantcircumstance in walking into a
situation and being like, oh,wow, these folks are really on
their way to something moreneuroaffirming, more
neurodiverse affirming, and thenmaybe a nightmare where you
(32:22):
walked in somewhere and said,yep, no, I can't do this, if
that's fair, if you canremember.
Unknown (32:27):
Yeah.
Maggie Haraburda (32:28):
Yeah, I mean, recently, I went to a school and
did one of my free trainings inour diversity improvement care.
And it's a large school inPhiladelphia.
And then a week later, I got anemail asking if our company
would contract with them toprovide all of their behavioral
support.
So I think that's one of thetimes when I thought, wow, we're
not doing that.
We want to do more of that.
(32:49):
Let's see if we can work withthem.
So I feel like when there'ssituations like that, I always
think, well, this is a win.
They want to learn.
Maybe they're not where I wouldlike them to be today.
But if that willingness andreadiness is there, then that's
the space that I want to
Speaker 01 (33:03):
be in.
Maggie Haraburda (33:06):
Worst situation was probably a couple
of years ago.
I was in a school in Philly, anapproved private school.
And just the strategies thatthey were using were awful.
I mean, very, very on the lineof abusive.
And I was trying to just makeas many as possible.
little change as I could atthat time.
(33:26):
But I didn't do it in a waythat was slow enough.
So I ended up highlighting allthe parts of the child's IEP
that they were ignoring and notimplementing.
And I sent it to the principal.
And I was asked not to comeback.
So it was a good experience.
(34:06):
Do
Dan Lowery (34:12):
you find that that's particularly re-triggering or
triggering for you, just basedon maybe your own experiences in
the past and how you may relateto those people that are, you
call it being borderline abused,or maybe it's not even to that
extreme, but the people that arenot being treated with the
respect and dignity that youwould expect them to be treated
with?
Maggie Haraburda (34:33):
Definitely.
I mean, you know, most of thestaff at unfurling littles is
also neurodivergent.
And so I have to be reallycareful about the spaces in
which we we go into, becauseeven something like, you know,
working towards pottyindependence, we're in a school
now, and the teachers are beingvery intrusive and physically
forcing the child to go and siton the potty.
And we're saying we can't be apart of this.
(34:54):
But I've had conversations withthe staff where it's really
hard for them to watch that.
And same for me, if I seesomeone not honor a child's
Yeah.
That's
Mike Rubio (35:34):
a really important point.
And I think I'm going to try totake sort of a simple premise
that you just discussed.
But I think that in beingclient-led or child-directed,
people often think that there'sthis general permissiveness.
They sort of go to, oh, letthem do whatever they want.
What you're discussing thereand saying a child, hey, so
we're in a classroom, reasonablyso, based on logistics.
(35:56):
We have a bathroom schedule.
Now it's time to go to thebathroom.
Oh, now you're saying no.
Okay, that's acceptable.
However, I see you clenchingyour legs together.
You're dancing around.
I think you need to go.
Describe to us kind of yourbest practice there in terms of
being a mindful, observant adultwho can say, hey, I really
(36:18):
think you need to go to thebathroom, Johnny, but I'm still
listening to your no.
I think that's confusing forpeople in terms of just, okay,
so Johnny didn't say yes rightaway.
That's not the end of theworld.
And yes, I know that you've got12 other students over here,
but you're going to have to comeback to Johnny and ask him
again, especially because yes,he does wet his pants and you
see that he needs to go, buthe's really engaged in the
(36:40):
blocks.
And right now he doesn't wantto.
What's, I don't know if you candescribe your best practice
there.
Maggie Haraburda (36:46):
Yeah, I think it's the piece that's really
hard for people is the time.
They want compliance now.
Now.
Right?
And they're not willing towait.
And so I think in thosesituations, it is what you
described.
Thank you for telling me now.
And really then that for me iswhen the detective work starts.
Like that's as a BCB, that'swhen our job begins.
And I think we've beenpracticing in such a lazy way up
(37:08):
to now where it's like, well,child said no.
I forced them to go.
You do what I say.
Speaker 01 (37:12):
Yeah.
Maggie Haraburda (37:14):
I made the behavior change.
What did you do?
But the repercussions of thatare so high.
So then I need to figure outwhy did they say no?
Why was it a no?
Do they not have enoughpreparation time?
Do they not know where we'regoing?
Is it really loud in thebathroom?
Do we need to find a bathroomthat's quieter?
And really starting to examinewhy the child might have said
(37:35):
no.
And so I think it's so hard toeven talk about what I would do
in that situation because Iwould want to have the
background and the history ofwhy they might be saying no.
Speaker 01 (37:44):
Maybe
Maggie Haraburda (37:45):
they're saying no just because Just because
that's their response whensomeone asks them to do
anything.
So maybe we can diffuse withsome humor in that moment.
Like, no, no, no to thebathroom.
A lot of times when I'm workingwith kids, even just playfully
responding to their no, ofletting them know I heard that
you said no.
Some of them, I think, justwant to say no to move towards
(38:07):
that yearning of autonomy.
Speaker 01 (38:10):
And
Maggie Haraburda (38:10):
so I think that's where the...
Yeah.
So that detective
Mike Rubio (38:21):
work of like, why is it?
No.
And what, what can I as a BCPAfind out by doing my job?
And that can be difficult forpeople.
(38:44):
And in that moment, we run therisk of being overly
authoritarian without any need,right?
Nobody's going to die or gethurt.
Okay, so a five-year-old wetstheir pants.
Is that completely uncommon?
No, it isn't.
It happens all over the worldevery day.
But I like that.
Even though that distinctionbetween saying autonomy versus
me saying, well, the child justwants to control, which means
(39:07):
that by saying that, I want tocontrol them.
That changes the whole premise.
That's no longer aninteraction.
It's one direction.
It's not an exchange.
Again, those nuances, we cancut up in semantics.
And then I think the semantics,like in this case, just have a
lot of value to them.
Yeah.
You got some questions.
(39:27):
Dan's got his questions.
He's getting his phone.
I do have some questions.
He promised he wasn't texting.
He's not a chronic texter.
Dan Lowery (39:34):
Anything else, Maggie, on the masking piece?
I really appreciate that comingfrom somebody like yourself
that can kind of see both sides.
Well, actually, let me go backone second because I do have a
question on the masking piece.
Is there a level of maskingthat, or how would you describe
the level of masking that's donekind of in just general
(39:55):
society?
So, I don't know, if I'm on anairplane, it may be
inappropriate.
I could even, I don't know ifget arrested is to get kicked
off of the plane.
If I go up and like yell and Idon't know, strip naked or
something like that, which mayor may not be something that I
want to do at that time, butthere's certain like behavioral
repertoires that are appropriateto certain areas.
(40:15):
So maybe that's a level ofmasking that we all do at some
point in time versus forcingsomebody to be who they don't
want to be for the satisfactionof myself.
Can you talk a little bit aboutthat?
Because sometimes we have to,or we choose to mask, right?
Everybody?
Maggie Haraburda (40:36):
Yeah, I think, again, it all goes back to that
harm reduction space, right?
There are spaces in which wehave to mask in order to ensure
the safety, well-being ofourselves and others, but making
sure that we have safe spacesin which we can fully unmask.
And I think that's what it is.
The answer is not nevermasking, but the answer is
having the choice to mask whenit's needed in order for safety.
(40:58):
And I think that...
it's not as black and white asa lot of people would want it to
be.
Maybe the child who's wantingto scream, what can we give them
so they can not get to thatpoint?
Because maybe that is adysregulated child.
Maybe if we had given them moresensory regulation before
(41:20):
getting on the airplane, theywouldn't have been escalated to
that point.
And so I think it's aboutreally figuring out what what
degree of unmasking is thischild able to do in order to
still stay safe in thisenvironment?
Dan Lowery (41:36):
So what you're saying is, if we were to take a
continuum, there's a percentageof time that we individuals with
autism, neurotypicalindividuals, spend masking and a
percentage of time we spendunmasking.
Historically, society hasexpected individuals on the
autism spectrum to spend alarger portion of time masking
than unmasking, and that wasvery harmful.
(41:57):
So we're not saying that we'recompletely going 100% unmasking,
but we're saying we need to tipthe scales a little bit more
towards that end because we'vebeen far closer to 100% masking,
which has caused harm.
Is that an accurate statement?
Maggie Haraburda (42:11):
Yeah, I think so.
And I think it's also gettingcurious about if a child is
unmasked in a place where youmight not typically see someone
unmasked, are we wanting them tomask for their safety or for
our own benefit?
And I think that's where theline can get blurred of I would
never want to send the messagethat someone should mask in
(42:32):
order to appease someone else.
But it's a different story whenit's for their safety or
well-being in certain situationsor settings.
Dan Lowery (42:41):
And then how would you, absolutely, that makes so
much sense.
The president of the company Iworked for, Proact, really, I
use this like every podcast, butshe has a statement, whose
needs are we meeting when?
And so often we're focused onour needs, not our clients'
needs of just having that personnot scream in my ear or it
(43:02):
bothers me when they hitthemselves.
So I want to get the feeling ofthem being okay by them stop
hitting themselves, focused onour needs, not why are they
hitting themselves or why arethey screaming.
Use the term unmasking.
So How could you make thatvisual for, say, a parent or
something like that?
Because you've talked aboutmaybe somebody being
(43:23):
rambunctious and running aroundthe corner of a room or
something like that beingunmasking.
Would you define maybe somebodyhitting themselves in the head?
How do you define unmasking?
Maggie Haraburda (43:35):
So for me, I think it's about listening to
what signals your body issending you.
and allowing yourself to engagein those.
So like one of the first timesafter my diagnosis that I could,
like tangibly feel myselfunmasking was after an Eagles
game.
Go birds.
Super Bowl champion Eagles.
We were waiting for SEPTA tocome to take us home on the
(44:00):
train.
And it was super loud.
It was bright.
It smelled terrible.
And I was really uncomfortable.
And so I noticed that I wasuncomfortable and that I started
to like move my body in a waythat was regulating for myself.
And then I was able to stay inthat environment while I was
moving in order to stayregulated.
So that was one of the firsttimes I was like, wow, i didn't
(44:22):
come home and just completelyfall apart because like for
parents a lot of the families wework with their kids come home
and they're falling apart andthat's happening because they're
spending such a high percentageof their day masking right that
they come home and they're justcompletely dysregulated and
have to then figure out a way tore-regulate themselves so in
that situation had i not movedmy body in a way that was
(44:43):
regulating while waiting forsepta i probably would have come
home and been a complete bearto my husband because i was
dysregulated so does Does thatanswer your question?
It does.
I've seen a picture of whatthat's like.
Dan Lowery (44:54):
It does.
I just want to be clear to whatMike was saying.
And I want to understand, in noway am I challenging what
you're saying, that let's saywe're sitting down to do
homework or something like that,sitting down to do whatever
task or about to do a task, andthe individual maybe runs away
or does something like that.
(45:15):
Would you call that unmasking?
Because they're expressingthemselves?
Go ahead.
Maggie Haraburda (45:21):
Well, my first question is why would they need
to sit down to do the task?
Because I think that's thefirst piece that might encourage
them to mask.
Like, well, they have to beengaged by sitting in a chair to
do their work, where I rarelywork at a desk.
I'm typically laid on the floorvertical is how I work best, or
standing.
So I think that's the firstpiece we're thinking of, because
(45:44):
that child in that moment, ifthey run away, to me, that's
maybe not as much unmasking asthem not assenting to sitting
down.
They didn't assent to sittinghere.
How can we restructure thistask in a way that they can
still be regulated and accesswhatever the learning
opportunity is?
Mike Rubio (46:03):
Man, what a cool dichotomy, right?
So the moment that child standsup, somebody's going to say
that child is no longer able tolearn because of my traditional
view here.
And you're saying that child'ssimply not assenting to sitting.
That's, I mean, that is just asuch a contrast to wrap your
mind around but it's soimportant because i mean you're
(46:24):
absolutely right that it's ait's a preconceived notion that
learning looks like this and ifthe moment that you don't fit
into that now you'renon-compliant and now i run the
risk of of uh of you know sayingthat you're fooling around as
opposed to you're expressing aneed and you're getting it and
then as soon as i can see thatyou're ready maybe i'm able to
(46:45):
offer you this SD and yourespond and you do the item on
the worksheet and now wereinforce you likely by allowing
you to continue to unmask orfool around, however we want to
put that.
But again, it's such a slipperyslope.
It's a very basic premise.
It's very parsimonious.
And then based on traditionalnotions of discipline, it breaks
(47:06):
all the rules.
It really just breaks all therules.
Anyway.
Yeah.
Dan Lowery (47:11):
No, thank you for answering that.
You really put things in aninteresting perspective and the
way you word them is something Iprobably wouldn't have thought
of.
So we learned so much speakingwith you.
So thank you for answeringthat.
So we talked about the socialversus the medical model of
disability.
Talked about it a little bitwith Michelle.
A parent actually brought thatup.
(47:31):
We did a...
We do a presentation forparents from parents with
individuals on the spectrum onkind of just what it's like to
go through getting thediagnosis, what they would
recommend kind of being on theother end.
And one of them brought up thedifference between the social
versus the medical model ofdisability.
Are you familiar with that,Maggie?
Maggie Haraburda (47:51):
Yeah, yeah, I am.
Like the distinct semanticsright now of it are escaping me.
But yeah, I'm familiar with theconcept.
So
Dan Lowery (47:58):
yeah, basically a lot of times because we're
funded by medical insurances, atleast initially, it seems like
our insurances are under themedical model.
And the medical modeloftentimes operates on, you have
a diagnosis, we're going togive you some treatment in the
idea that we're going to fix oralleviate this diagnosis.
That's what the traditionalmedical model goes with.
(48:20):
Now, obviously in ABA, we'renot that rigid, but that's what
the medical model is.
Whereas the social model is,it's just society not
necessarily set up for theseindividuals.
And it's not necessarily justthe individual individuals that
needs to receive the treatment,but society itself or that
environment needs the treatmentso that they can better
(48:41):
accommodate for the individual.
Now, obviously it's not 100% ofeither one, but do you have any
thoughts on kind of thatbalance between the social
versus the medical model ofdisability?
Maggie Haraburda (48:52):
Yeah, I mean, I think we have to play the
game, right?
That's how I always think ofit, because we do work with
insurance funders.
And I think that as a company,we just get creative in the way
that we're expressing what thischild's challenges and strengths
are.
And so even like in our sessionnotes, you know, they want you
to talk about those coreDeficits, right.
(49:21):
In this situation, semanticsdoes matter.
Speaker 01 (49:35):
And
Maggie Haraburda (49:36):
the way that we're talking about these kids,
the way that we're writing goalsto support them.
But I think the way you meldthe two is by how you're writing
the goals so if it's that thegoal is for the child to
participate in circle timeinstead of just writing the
child will participate in circletime for five minutes because
(49:56):
that's like a societyexpectation maybe you'll say
with unlimited access toregulation tools and while
honoring a sense withdrawalchild will participate right and
so it's that slight shift ofyou know how can we not only
look at the child's behavior butthe environment in order to
support the child's behaviorbecause that they're regulated
at circle time, that's muchdifferent than just
(50:20):
participating in circle time,right?
Mike Rubio (50:23):
This concludes part one of our interview with Maggie
Haraberta.
Please do return for part twoand
Dan Lowery (50:31):
always analyze responsibly.
Mike Rubio (50:34):
ABA on Tap is recorded live and unfiltered.
We're done for today.
You don't have to go home, butyou can't stay here.
See you next time.
Speaker 01 (01:42:33):
ABA on Tap
Mike Rubio (01:42:35):
is recorded live and unfiltered.
We're done for today.
You don't have to go home, butyou can't stay here.
See you next time.
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