September 5, 2025 • 33 mins
Troy Leinster has spent years in the world of type design. From working at Hoefler & Co. (now Monotype) in New York to now running his own studio, Leinster Type. In this episode of Able Heads, we talk about building a career in type, how to pitch your work to foundries like Adobe Fonts and Sandoll Cloud, and making it sustainable through teaching and licensing, and learning to step up when opportunity knocks.
We also get into how inspiration shows up in everyday places and the ups and downs of freelancing.
Check out Leinster Type: https://www.leinstertype.com/
👉 Subscribe and listen wherever you get your podcasts.
🔗 Full show notes and more at podcast.ablehead.com
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Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Today's guest is Troy Lion Star,an Australian typeface designer
who's worked with one of the most iconic foundries in the
world, Heffler and Company. I'm really excited to welcome
Troy and you to the podcast Ableheads, where we chat with
creators who are creating and designing on their own terms.
This episode is not about how tomake time, but it's about how to
(00:21):
make a career in time. This episode is packed with
insight on some business lessonsthat Troy learnt going
independent and turning your craft into a career, Let's
welcome Troy. Hi, Troy.
How's it going today? Well, thanks, Anika.
Thanks so much for having me. Of course, yeah.
For our listeners, I actually want to dive straight in and ask
(00:43):
you something that I'm also personally curious about, which
is what does most of the design world get wrong about how type
design careers actually work? Yeah, type design career is kind
of difficult right now. I mean years ago it was probably
easier to get a job as a typeface design and now it's you
know, most typeface designers I think are probably self-employed
(01:07):
freelancers may be doing graphicdesign as well.
You know the the days of gettinga job at a foundry, I think a
kind of limited or if not over unfortunately because you can
gather a lot of experience and knowledge.
Obviously when you have a full time job making type everyday.
Sadly, there's not too many big foundries anymore that can
(01:30):
afford to hire full time typeface designers.
Yeah, Yeah. That's unfortunate.
So people like me who are breaking into type or thinking
about it as a side hustle, what would be our opportunity to turn
that into a business if we wanted to do it today?
I would do it alongside your other way of making money,
(01:50):
whatever that is, and do it as aside hustle until, you know, it
builds up because type design isa very long term pursuit.
And even myself, after being self-employed for just three
years out of the foundry, you know, I was in a foundry for
seven years and then I started my foundry about 3 years ago.
It's still very, very slow. And I often say to people, it's
(02:15):
kind of like building a library and having to write all the
books to go in the library. Do you know what I mean?
So yeah, when you've got one book, you know, you might get
the odd person coming and takinga look, but until you get a good
selection, you know, it's a veryslow start.
Yeah, Yeah. I think that's very well put.
(02:36):
So how would you say your specific skills as a designer
helped you work at Heffler and Company and then now lines that
I. Yeah, that's a tough one.
I think as a graphic designer, you know, my drawing skills and
things like that came in very handy.
Using type in the past was useful.
And, you know, knowing how to set type and being kind of a
(03:00):
typographer, I guess you could say, definitely helps in in
making type. But it's just the very, very
start, you know? So taking those skills into
typeface design is very useful, but then there's just such a big
amount of learning on top of that to practice, you know,
it's, it's mainly just refining the skill and your craft over a
(03:23):
long period of time and just slowly getting better and better
at it. Yeah.
So what's your story? Why move from a foundry to
making your own and starting a business?
What's the story there? Well, I worked at Heifer and Co
for seven years and I've, I've worked on probably about 7:00 or
so typefaces from start to finish.
(03:46):
So that was really great experience.
And you know, it's where, you know, I, before that I did my
master's degree in typeface design.
But of course, you know, like everything when you get a job,
definitely had a lot to learn when I hit the ground running.
And after seven years, I felt like I had got to a point where
(04:08):
I probably need a different experience to continue to be
challenged. Like any job, you can kind of
get into a bit of a rut after a while.
And it's important then I think to kind of look for that next
step to push yourself and, you know, gather those extra skills
that perhaps you can't gather while you're at that, the place
(04:30):
that you're at. Right.
Yeah. It's not always about also the
work that you're doing, but how you're doing it and managing
everything else along with it. In the end, I think it comes to
how often you enjoy doing that as well because it is what is
helping you grow. At the end of the day, too, just
knowing your revenue and your projection for the next year
(04:51):
kind of grounds you at the end of the day to tell you how
you're doing and how much water you're in.
For sure that that other area ofthe design business is, is
really important. And obviously when you work for
someone, you don't really have to worry about that.
And you know, as a typeface designer at Heffler and Co, we
had someone for example, that was focused on the engineering
(05:12):
part and then someone focused onthe marketing part and someone
focused on building the website.And you know, you don't,
although we were kind of taught to prepare our fonts for sale
and things like that, you know, you always had someone to rely
on. And when you have someone to
rely on, not really forced to dig really deep and be in that
(05:33):
position where you have to find out how to do something.
So that was the real benefit forme when I started my own
foundry, because then I was forced to find these things out,
you know? I feel like those that is what
separates a good foundry from a great foundry as well.
Which kind of it actually bringsme to this curious question
(05:54):
because I found you through Adobe Fonts and that's what
inspired this conversation as well.
So I'm curious how does one get onto a platform like Adobe Fonts
and if you are on other platforms and what are the
offerings? Yeah.
OK. So first the typefaces will will
launch on my website links to type and then I pitched a couple
(06:15):
to Adobe and thankfully they kind of accepted for them to go
on, you know to that platform, but not all of them are on there
because not all of them are suitable for that platform.
So they was a matter of me submitting and then seeing
whether it was suitable for themor not.
So they accepted three at the stage, hopefully more to come.
(06:37):
But it's great being on Adobe because, you know, those fonts
are really in front of designersall the time is very hard as a
foundry to really get in front of a lot of people.
It takes, you know, a lot of work a lot of time.
So that that was that was a great, great kind of
opportunity. And I've also got fonts on
(06:59):
Sandal Cloud, which is a foundryin South Korea that or a
distributor you might call them,targeting that, that kind of
market. So, you know, at the moment,
three years in, I'm still in that situation where I'm kind of
trying different things, figuring out what suits me,
figuring out which fonts are better on which platforms.
(07:20):
You know, there's very specific kind of needs for each platform.
So it's a big curve and it's trial and error and some things
work and some things don't. Yeah, I'm wondering how would
you even pitch something to a platform when you're saying,
hey, this is my typeface and this is what I do.
So how does one even pitch to a platform?
(07:40):
What does your typeface pitch for something like Adobe Fonts?
Well I just prepared APDF of thetypeface and let them know how
what the character set was like and showed it how it might be
used and then you just send it off and see what they say.
Send it off and hope for the best.
(08:01):
No, I I love that. It's, it's actually quite
difficult. It is, I must say, quite
difficult to sort of get on there at the moment because I
think they just have so much, somany fonts.
And, you know, I think at the moment perhaps they're looking
for something that's a bit more expressive because they have a
lot of text fonts and things like that.
(08:23):
But who knows? I, I don't know.
I'm in the same boat as everyoneelse.
I'd just throw my font into the heart and hope that you might
take it. But yeah.
Do you think that AI is playing a role in type design at all, or
in your workflow personally? At the moment not a lot.
Well, that's probably not true. So AI for me at the moment is
(08:47):
very useful for helping me to maybe write small scripts.
I'm not a coder, I never have, Ihave no interested in learning
how to code. So when I need to solve a
problem, a can use chapter GPT or something like that to help
me write a script. And in fact, I find it very
useful in, you know, educating me how to structure things and
(09:11):
do things in in, you know, a structured way.
So that's been super useful. I'm hoping that AI will be
useful for speeding up the kerning process.
For example, kerning just takes so long and it's such a big
investment. If we can get the, if we can get
that to be better, you know, take a shorter amount of time
(09:31):
that will that will be really useful getting our fonts rocket,
but also, you know, perhaps making it a little bit more
achievable to finish a typeface.Yeah, I love vibe coding.
I feel like you could probably use vibe coding to create
something like that, which wouldbe like, hey, let's test it out
and see if this coding is good. And I've personally never done
(09:53):
it by hand. I've used the, I know there used
to be an extension for Illustrator, which I'm
forgetting. I think it's the font self
Maker. And I used to use that when I
first got started and I just used to use auto code so.
Yeah, yeah, is a very interesting thing because you
know, it's, it's very human thing to it's a, you know, I'm
(10:17):
using all the wrong terms probably.
But you really need to use your eyes to space something or Kern
something and having a machine kind of doing that or mimicking,
you know, that procedure, you know, it, it, it gets you part
of the way there, but it doesn'treally feel, you know, like it's
(10:38):
a really great result. Yeah, so.
Hopefully, you know, we can get closer or perhaps as a tool that
we can use to get us part the way there and we can just touch
it up at the end. So yeah, I think it's.
Are there any tools that you've used for the sketching process
or just concepting out the typeface?
No, I, my sketching process is pretty much pen and paper and,
(11:03):
you know, just sketching a lot. So I found, you know, I, I don't
sit down to sketch a type is I tend to just sit down to sketch
a word and then put on the pile,sketch another word, put it on
the pile. Do you know what I mean?
Like what, what really helps is having a huge pile of sketches
because then you can go back to them in six months time and you
(11:25):
can judge them without, you know, being too personal about
it. And you can flick through those
sketches and find one that catches your eye.
Perhaps it's just a letter. And that can then be the seed
for a, for a typeface. It's hard to, I mean, if it was
a custom project, well, it wouldbe a different procedure.
Perhaps you'd sit down and yeah,have a brief and use that to as
(11:51):
a basis for your sketch. But for retail for me it's it's
just exploring and not over thinking it and then just see
what happens. Yeah, that's a very fresh and
unique perspective because I feel like when I'm doing design
work, sometimes I get too close to it when there are deadlines
and there's no way I can see clearly what what's wrong with
(12:12):
the design. And then six months later, I go
back to it and I'm like, this isprobably not my best work.
This illustration does not represent my design skills.
Yeah. So I feel like that is such a
fresh perspective. I've never thought of it that
way. I did a 36 days of type
challenge where I did, like, Penguin type and used Penguins
(12:33):
as an inspiration, but also partof it.
So I use negative space to create the shape of the Penguin
with vectors and then made that into glyphs.
And that project in itself is sohard for me.
So I can't even imagine trying to create something that's
legible and not just a not just a display type.
It's yeah, the process is mind blowing for me.
(12:54):
So going back to ChatGPT and just the autogoning part, do you
think there's any parts of the design process that are
resistant to automation in the future?
Is there any other part of the process?
Maybe the type creation itself? Well, anything that involves
human perception, don't think you know, it's not until you
create something that I think AIcan use that to build something
(13:17):
else from. So the great thing about humans
is we perceive things and every day we perceive things
differently. We might do something yesterday
that we would change today. Often, you know, when I make a
typeface five years later, I'm like, Oh my God, I need to, you
know, do that again or, or you'll spot something.
You know, that's because you're always growing every day.
(13:38):
You're influenced by the outsideand by what other people do and
your perception changes. And that's, that's what we can
hold on to as creatives for our way to kind of to move through
this, you know, this new space we're entering.
So anything to do any, anything with perceiving weight and, and
(14:01):
space. I think we, you know, it's going
to struggle to get that as well as we perhaps could do it fairly
quickly. And you have to remember that
whatever we make, in order to bedifferent to what these machines
are going to be making, we have to put ourselves into it.
(14:21):
We have to put a bit of our opinion into it, a bit of the
way we see things, because how Isee something is different to
how you see it. So if we can inject that into
our work and find any opportunity to use our ability
to perceive, then I think that'sgoing to be the difference.
I hope, yeah. No, it was definitely a slippery
(14:42):
slope with AI and design in general.
I feel like there's gonna be some changes with licensing and
how people view foundries and independent foundries and
platforms, distributing type formaybe people who are just
starting out or small business owners who don't even know what
a typeface is and they want to create something custom.
(15:03):
Maybe they'll just go to ChatGPTin the future and say, generate
something, and then that makes me scared about the future where
there's bad kerning and bad fonts on the menu, where you go
for dinner and you can't do anything about it.
So yeah. The thing we have to remember is
that there is already bad fonts with bad kerning and bad
(15:23):
specific. Do you know what I mean?
And there there is people that don't see that or they don't
mind that that's the case. And there will always be that
market that will be happy with that because, you know, they're
interested in something else. Whereas for us, we care about
(15:44):
those things or for design studios or big companies that
really care about these things, they won't risk it.
They'll want someone like us to tell them what they need, you
know, because we're the ones that kind of have the the eye
for it. Yeah, it will always be that,
(16:06):
that other market. I mean, it's here already, so
I'm not worried about that. What are the things you evaluate
and refine in a typeface before taking it to business or before
launching it for public? Typeface design is really about
creating a system. It's about space, it's about
proportion. You know, all of those things,
(16:27):
you can't really measure them, you know, you have to look at
them. So that is what I'm constantly
working on on a daily basis is how to crop this system and, you
know, make everything work together.
So there's a nice rhythm to it. So that texture is nice and
even, you know, that type of thing.
They're they're the things that I'm looking at every day.
(16:49):
And it's not something you can look at once and fix.
It's something that, you know, like we were talking about
before giving something time. So, so you can see it.
Yeah. So you'll fix some things, the
big things, and then when you come back there'll be more
things to fix that you didn't see in the first time because
the first time you looked at it,you've solved the big things.
(17:09):
So it's like layered and you cankeep going back.
You'll always find something else to tweak.
So the the more passes you can do on the project that you know,
the better, the more refined it will be.
And hopefully that means a better product at the end of the
day. So what makes you stop at the
end of the day? Because you can go on refining
(17:30):
it forever and it it can take years to develop something that
you're happy with, right? But where do you find that
stopping point for yourself? The stopping point comes where
you, where you've fixed what youcan see.
Again, like I said before, a couple of years later or maybe
two months later, you might picksomething else, find something
else and but it'll be small, youknow.
So I think you, you just have toPolish it as much as you can see
(17:56):
the issues. And then once there's very
little issues that you can see to solve, I think it's it's good
to go. Yeah, no, that's awesome.
I think I should go back to my type design days, but going back
to Adobe Fonts and getting into platforms like that
conversation. So we talked about how people or
(18:18):
platforms are looking for specific kind of typefaces at
one point in time. How do you personally manage
that demand with respect to whatyour brand values are and what
the foundry style is? Do you incorporate that in your
style or how does that process work out?
I mean, it's in the back of my head, but it's not.
(18:39):
It's not the driver. Because it takes so long to make
a typeface, I do not want to be doing what they want me to do
because I'm not going to enjoy it.
So I it's most important for me to be making something that I
feel is a new challenge to me, anew puzzle to figure out,
something exciting to keep me going through all those months
(18:59):
of making it. And then, you know, if someone
else wants it, great. If they don't, well, I've
enjoyed the process. And funny thing about typeface
design is at the beginning, I used to live for the end.
You know it would be that release date, but what you find
out after the first release, it's a bit of a downer.
(19:22):
It only goes in 24 hours and theexcitement is done.
Whereas the process of you know how many months it takes, after
a while you realize that that isthe fun bit.
The the release day can be rather underwhelming and it it's
(19:46):
done and then what do you do? You got to, you got to come up
with another one. Yeah.
So. It's the process goes on.
Yeah, exactly. So I think the enjoyment
definitely is the process and the building and but it can be
frustrating and there can be moments of doubt and moments
(20:06):
where you don't know what to do or you get a little overwhelmed
or you get despondent and feel. Is this really going anywhere?
Yeah. You just have to work through it
and realize that, you know, somedays you feel good about it,
some days you don't, you know? Yeah.
At the end of the day, I think it's also about embracing that
(20:27):
part of the process because it'skind of helping you not look at
it personally. And then I know you're talking
about if you ever pursue the trends, if I may, and now I'm
curious, how do you make your typeface timeless when we're not
looking at things that are current or trendy right now and
we just want to use this font every day?
(20:49):
No, no, I, I try, try to design something that feels fresh to
me, something that I haven't done before.
I don't tend to like, like to make a typeface again, you know,
because the process is boring. You've been there.
So every project I I'm looking for something fresh to me,
something I haven't done before,and then trying to put my
(21:13):
thoughts on it, how it should be, what the leg of the cap are,
should look like or whatever youdo, you know what I mean?
You've got, you've got to put yourself into it for it to be
different. So it's, I'm not sure.
Yeah, I'm not really thinking about whether it's trending or
not. I do like to design typefaces
(21:34):
that aren't to, I don't know, I don't know what the word is, but
I, I guess I like classical shapes and solid forms and, you
know, these, these types of things that tend to last longer.
But who knows? I mean, I'm only three years in,
so maybe it'll go out of fashionwhat I'm doing.
(21:56):
No, I don't think it's one of those things that'll stay
forever. Everyone's going to read, so
yeah, even AI might need help. So with the creative, creative
side of things where you're in the deep end of the process, how
do you balance the licensing andthe value proposition or the
(22:16):
pricing of the typeface? Yeah, that's a great question.
And it's something that I'm still sort of trialing and
learning as I go along. So for me, it's really based on
the size of the family and how many masters I'm drawing from
scratch and then perhaps how many interpolations I can get in
between for less amount of of work perhaps.
(22:39):
So the larger families, I tendedto price individual stars a
little bit less than the smallerfamilies that, you know, perhaps
don't have a huge range of styles.
Also, I like to track how long these things take coming from a
graphic design background where you're always tracking time.
(23:00):
I don't really track time to thehour, but I like to kind of go,
OK, well, that took me 6 months.If I had a job, how much would I
get paid for that? And I'm hoping one day I get at
least that back. You know, your accountant would
probably say you would want three times that back.
I don't know. But who knows that's ever going
(23:21):
to happen. But I like to kind of track that
sort of stuff just so I know what I'm investing to do this.
So yeah. So how do you, how do you kind
of this is in line with what I talked about earlier, but how do
you kind of make it a recurring revenue other than promoting it
on different distributors? Have you found that your
personal Foundry website has helped you with that process?
(23:45):
At the moment I think the Foundry website is growing
slowly and steadily, but it's, Iwouldn't say, you know, a huge
success yet. It's it's a slow game and I
guess for me it's about creatinglittle income streams all over
the place. Like to me, one little type 1
typeface is an income stream, but there's also other income
(24:09):
streams that we have to to kind of make a whole.
So you know, on the other side of the foundry, I have type
masters, which is type design coaching.
So you know, people let it and making a typeface that wants
support through that process. I can help out with that.
So that's another little income stream.
(24:29):
So to me it was about having different ways to make money so
when, when I finish my job, I, you know, could survive.
Yeah, yeah. That's one of the biggest things
I feel like as a small business owner everyone needs to have.
(24:51):
So do you think that your work with type monsters and coaching
design students or designers even get into type influences
your design decisions as well? I think any form of
collaboration is is really great.
It helps you articulate when, when you're, when you're helping
someone else, It helps you articulate for yourself or ask
(25:13):
yourself these questions that perhaps you haven't thought of
before. So any, any form of teaching or
coaching I think is super valuable.
It's an opportunity to, you know, work with people and talk
with people, which in type design we're all, you know, very
solo workers. So that for me was an important
(25:33):
part of the process to have conversation and talk with
people and not just be locked upmaking a font all by myself.
Yeah. So yeah, there there's a lot of
a lot of things that that coaching can provide me as an
individual designer, I think. Yeah, it's part of the process.
(25:54):
I feel like if I would get over and creating something for six
months and just at one point, I feel like it almost takes away
from the process. I would go back to those
conversations and learn from those and how they can help me.
So it's almost like that mentor and mentee relationship where
it's always a two way relationship.
You always learn from each otherand collaborate.
(26:15):
That's, that's really, I admire that a lot.
A lot on the same though of I, I'm curious, how do you approach
marketing without kind of feeling salesy when you're
selling a typeface? Because it's one of those niche
industries and not a lot of people do it.
Yeah, I know it's, it's a tough thing because when you release a
typeface, you want to kind of tell people about it, but you
(26:36):
don't want to constantly bash them over their head with this
thing. So, you know, I've felt a little
uncomfortable before about, you know, releasing A typeface and
then perhaps posting every couple of days more about it.
But I don't know, I think in thefirst week or something, post
away and then then slowly get back-to-back to building more
(26:57):
typefaces and you know, just meeting people, getting to know
people, building a relationships.
So when they're ready to purchase a typeface or maybe
they need help with the typeface, or maybe they needed
buy somewhat typeface to choose,you know, they think of you and
that's all you can do. It's kind of like, you know,
when you're looking for a hairdresser to cut your hair or
(27:18):
a Barber, you're not really looking until you need it, you
know, and then you're looking for one.
So I think it's the same sort ofthing.
You're going to be there when someone's ready to buy.
Do you have a letter form that you test our favorite word that
you write or sketch every time you create a new typeface?
(27:39):
I like to every sketch I do I like to choose a new word and
the word I like to have 5 letters or more because anything
less than 5 it doesn't really look like a word and I want it
to look like a good and nice looking word.
Otherwise it, it affects how thesketch looks.
So it's important for me to havea capital letter and a sender
(28:04):
and a descender in the word. And hopefully, you know, about 6
or 7 characters long at that point, you start to see a font,
you know, if you're just doing O&O, you know, or HONO or
something that's not a typeface,you know, that's yeah.
So there's no personality in those characters generally.
(28:26):
That's the traditional, Yeah, that's, that's how people say
that these are the first two letter forms that people create
when creating a type. And I never understood that
because they seem, yeah, they seem very easy to make.
And the ones that I struggle with are s s and the M's and the
W's. And I'm like, OK, I don't know
(28:47):
how this works. Yeah.
So let's create those first. Well, the enemy O and those
shapes are created first once you have an idea, because you
want to set up your, your spacing and some control
characters that you can when youadd a new character and you can
relate it to. And those characters are very
simple. They have a lot of information
(29:08):
in them with regards to stem weight and vertical weight,
horizontal weight that you can use for your other more
complicated characters, you know.
So that's why we start with them, but we don't.
But there is confusion and that we sit there and sketch ends and
nose and that's not the case. You know, you should be
sketching interesting words and a new word every time you create
(29:29):
a sketch. And then when you start
digitizing, I would then start with an NONP because they're
just the character, the control characters that will help us set
up this design space. And then we can add in the more
complicated characters after that.
So what would you say is your one source of inspiration that
(29:51):
has influenced your type design over the years?
I like to get inspiration from different artists from the
street. I love walking around taking
photos of all signs or graffiti or any any kind of hand marks on
the street are very exciting forme.
Generally not because you're going to see a typeface in in
(30:11):
them, but perhaps they OfferUp anew shape or a new construction
for a letter form that you haven't really thought about.
That's that's always exciting. You know, fashion, furniture
design, you know, those types ofthings are really interesting to
me. I don't tend to look through
specimen books constantly. I may refer to them for, you
(30:33):
know, a historical kind of perspective, but I'm not really
digging through there trying to find something to recreate.
Or generally I want outside input so I can kind of find
something new to play with. Yeah.
So is there a historical typeface or a type designer that
(30:56):
your book is maybe inspired fromor just you generally admire?
Well, because I, I studied at adopt school, I, I guess, you
know, one of the first type designers that I, I kind of
admired was Brown de Dorfs. So, but I wouldn't say that his
work is something that I refer to regularly, but it was
(31:18):
definitely something that openedmy eyes to typeface design and I
was very impressed by that work.Yeah.
I mean, all of those type designgods have influenced us in one
way or another for sure. Absolutely, Yeah, Yeah.
And I'm also curious, what advice would you give to
(31:38):
designers who are trying to makethe shift to a type designer and
now an AI driven bold? Yeah, I would make stuff
constantly make because through making you're going to hone your
skills, you're going to get faster, you're going to figure
out how to make your process better.
If it's all in your head, it's doesn't exist, you know, you've
(32:01):
got to get it down. You've got to start using those
muscles every day, drawing a letter every day.
If that's all you can manage, you know, just working on a
project and and trialing things out, I think is probably the
advice that I was I would give if you're trying to, you know,
get into that area more. All right.
(32:21):
Well, thank you so much, Troy, for being here.
And there will be stuff in the show notes for our listeners.
So if you're listening at home and want to learn type design or
have someone to collaborate withwhile you're creating type at
home, all the other details willbe in the show notes.
Thank you, Troy, again for joining us, and I'll see you on
the other side. Thank you so much.
If this episode got you thinkingabout building a career in type
(32:44):
or taking your work from side project to business, I hope
Troy's story gave you the permission to start.
You can find more of his work atlionstertype.com or follow him
on Instagram for the latest. And if you like this episode,
share it with a designer who's been thinking with type.
New episodes of Ableheads drop regularly, so follow wherever
you're listening and I'll see you on the next one.
Today's guest is Troy Lion Star,an Australian typeface designer
who's worked with one of the most iconic foundries in the
world, Heffler and Company. I'm really excited to welcome
Troy and you to the podcast Ableheads, where we chat with
creators who are creating and designing on their own terms.
This episode is not about how tomake time, but it's about how to
(00:21):
make a career in time. This episode is packed with
insight on some business lessonsthat Troy learnt going
independent and turning your craft into a career, Let's
welcome Troy. Hi, Troy.
How's it going today? Well, thanks, Anika.
Thanks so much for having me. Of course, yeah.
For our listeners, I actually want to dive straight in and ask
(00:43):
you something that I'm also personally curious about, which
is what does most of the design world get wrong about how type
design careers actually work? Yeah, type design career is kind
of difficult right now. I mean years ago it was probably
easier to get a job as a typeface design and now it's you
know, most typeface designers I think are probably self-employed
(01:07):
freelancers may be doing graphicdesign as well.
You know the the days of gettinga job at a foundry, I think a
kind of limited or if not over unfortunately because you can
gather a lot of experience and knowledge.
Obviously when you have a full time job making type everyday.
Sadly, there's not too many big foundries anymore that can
(01:30):
afford to hire full time typeface designers.
Yeah, Yeah. That's unfortunate.
So people like me who are breaking into type or thinking
about it as a side hustle, what would be our opportunity to turn
that into a business if we wanted to do it today?
I would do it alongside your other way of making money,
(01:50):
whatever that is, and do it as aside hustle until, you know, it
builds up because type design isa very long term pursuit.
And even myself, after being self-employed for just three
years out of the foundry, you know, I was in a foundry for
seven years and then I started my foundry about 3 years ago.
It's still very, very slow. And I often say to people, it's
(02:15):
kind of like building a library and having to write all the
books to go in the library. Do you know what I mean?
So yeah, when you've got one book, you know, you might get
the odd person coming and takinga look, but until you get a good
selection, you know, it's a veryslow start.
Yeah, Yeah. I think that's very well put.
(02:36):
So how would you say your specific skills as a designer
helped you work at Heffler and Company and then now lines that
I. Yeah, that's a tough one.
I think as a graphic designer, you know, my drawing skills and
things like that came in very handy.
Using type in the past was useful.
And, you know, knowing how to set type and being kind of a
(03:00):
typographer, I guess you could say, definitely helps in in
making type. But it's just the very, very
start, you know? So taking those skills into
typeface design is very useful, but then there's just such a big
amount of learning on top of that to practice, you know,
it's, it's mainly just refining the skill and your craft over a
(03:23):
long period of time and just slowly getting better and better
at it. Yeah.
So what's your story? Why move from a foundry to
making your own and starting a business?
What's the story there? Well, I worked at Heifer and Co
for seven years and I've, I've worked on probably about 7:00 or
so typefaces from start to finish.
(03:46):
So that was really great experience.
And you know, it's where, you know, I, before that I did my
master's degree in typeface design.
But of course, you know, like everything when you get a job,
definitely had a lot to learn when I hit the ground running.
And after seven years, I felt like I had got to a point where
(04:08):
I probably need a different experience to continue to be
challenged. Like any job, you can kind of
get into a bit of a rut after a while.
And it's important then I think to kind of look for that next
step to push yourself and, you know, gather those extra skills
that perhaps you can't gather while you're at that, the place
(04:30):
that you're at. Right.
Yeah. It's not always about also the
work that you're doing, but how you're doing it and managing
everything else along with it. In the end, I think it comes to
how often you enjoy doing that as well because it is what is
helping you grow. At the end of the day, too, just
knowing your revenue and your projection for the next year
(04:51):
kind of grounds you at the end of the day to tell you how
you're doing and how much water you're in.
For sure that that other area ofthe design business is, is
really important. And obviously when you work for
someone, you don't really have to worry about that.
And you know, as a typeface designer at Heffler and Co, we
had someone for example, that was focused on the engineering
(05:12):
part and then someone focused onthe marketing part and someone
focused on building the website.And you know, you don't,
although we were kind of taught to prepare our fonts for sale
and things like that, you know, you always had someone to rely
on. And when you have someone to
rely on, not really forced to dig really deep and be in that
(05:33):
position where you have to find out how to do something.
So that was the real benefit forme when I started my own
foundry, because then I was forced to find these things out,
you know? I feel like those that is what
separates a good foundry from a great foundry as well.
Which kind of it actually bringsme to this curious question
(05:54):
because I found you through Adobe Fonts and that's what
inspired this conversation as well.
So I'm curious how does one get onto a platform like Adobe Fonts
and if you are on other platforms and what are the
offerings? Yeah.
OK. So first the typefaces will will
launch on my website links to type and then I pitched a couple
(06:15):
to Adobe and thankfully they kind of accepted for them to go
on, you know to that platform, but not all of them are on there
because not all of them are suitable for that platform.
So they was a matter of me submitting and then seeing
whether it was suitable for themor not.
So they accepted three at the stage, hopefully more to come.
(06:37):
But it's great being on Adobe because, you know, those fonts
are really in front of designersall the time is very hard as a
foundry to really get in front of a lot of people.
It takes, you know, a lot of work a lot of time.
So that that was that was a great, great kind of
opportunity. And I've also got fonts on
(06:59):
Sandal Cloud, which is a foundryin South Korea that or a
distributor you might call them,targeting that, that kind of
market. So, you know, at the moment,
three years in, I'm still in that situation where I'm kind of
trying different things, figuring out what suits me,
figuring out which fonts are better on which platforms.
(07:20):
You know, there's very specific kind of needs for each platform.
So it's a big curve and it's trial and error and some things
work and some things don't. Yeah, I'm wondering how would
you even pitch something to a platform when you're saying,
hey, this is my typeface and this is what I do.
So how does one even pitch to a platform?
(07:40):
What does your typeface pitch for something like Adobe Fonts?
Well I just prepared APDF of thetypeface and let them know how
what the character set was like and showed it how it might be
used and then you just send it off and see what they say.
Send it off and hope for the best.
(08:01):
No, I I love that. It's, it's actually quite
difficult. It is, I must say, quite
difficult to sort of get on there at the moment because I
think they just have so much, somany fonts.
And, you know, I think at the moment perhaps they're looking
for something that's a bit more expressive because they have a
lot of text fonts and things like that.
(08:23):
But who knows? I, I don't know.
I'm in the same boat as everyoneelse.
I'd just throw my font into the heart and hope that you might
take it. But yeah.
Do you think that AI is playing a role in type design at all, or
in your workflow personally? At the moment not a lot.
Well, that's probably not true. So AI for me at the moment is
(08:47):
very useful for helping me to maybe write small scripts.
I'm not a coder, I never have, Ihave no interested in learning
how to code. So when I need to solve a
problem, a can use chapter GPT or something like that to help
me write a script. And in fact, I find it very
useful in, you know, educating me how to structure things and
(09:11):
do things in in, you know, a structured way.
So that's been super useful. I'm hoping that AI will be
useful for speeding up the kerning process.
For example, kerning just takes so long and it's such a big
investment. If we can get the, if we can get
that to be better, you know, take a shorter amount of time
(09:31):
that will that will be really useful getting our fonts rocket,
but also, you know, perhaps making it a little bit more
achievable to finish a typeface.Yeah, I love vibe coding.
I feel like you could probably use vibe coding to create
something like that, which wouldbe like, hey, let's test it out
and see if this coding is good. And I've personally never done
(09:53):
it by hand. I've used the, I know there used
to be an extension for Illustrator, which I'm
forgetting. I think it's the font self
Maker. And I used to use that when I
first got started and I just used to use auto code so.
Yeah, yeah, is a very interesting thing because you
know, it's, it's very human thing to it's a, you know, I'm
(10:17):
using all the wrong terms probably.
But you really need to use your eyes to space something or Kern
something and having a machine kind of doing that or mimicking,
you know, that procedure, you know, it, it, it gets you part
of the way there, but it doesn'treally feel, you know, like it's
(10:38):
a really great result. Yeah, so.
Hopefully, you know, we can get closer or perhaps as a tool that
we can use to get us part the way there and we can just touch
it up at the end. So yeah, I think it's.
Are there any tools that you've used for the sketching process
or just concepting out the typeface?
No, I, my sketching process is pretty much pen and paper and,
(11:03):
you know, just sketching a lot. So I found, you know, I, I don't
sit down to sketch a type is I tend to just sit down to sketch
a word and then put on the pile,sketch another word, put it on
the pile. Do you know what I mean?
Like what, what really helps is having a huge pile of sketches
because then you can go back to them in six months time and you
(11:25):
can judge them without, you know, being too personal about
it. And you can flick through those
sketches and find one that catches your eye.
Perhaps it's just a letter. And that can then be the seed
for a, for a typeface. It's hard to, I mean, if it was
a custom project, well, it wouldbe a different procedure.
Perhaps you'd sit down and yeah,have a brief and use that to as
(11:51):
a basis for your sketch. But for retail for me it's it's
just exploring and not over thinking it and then just see
what happens. Yeah, that's a very fresh and
unique perspective because I feel like when I'm doing design
work, sometimes I get too close to it when there are deadlines
and there's no way I can see clearly what what's wrong with
(12:12):
the design. And then six months later, I go
back to it and I'm like, this isprobably not my best work.
This illustration does not represent my design skills.
Yeah. So I feel like that is such a
fresh perspective. I've never thought of it that
way. I did a 36 days of type
challenge where I did, like, Penguin type and used Penguins
(12:33):
as an inspiration, but also partof it.
So I use negative space to create the shape of the Penguin
with vectors and then made that into glyphs.
And that project in itself is sohard for me.
So I can't even imagine trying to create something that's
legible and not just a not just a display type.
It's yeah, the process is mind blowing for me.
(12:54):
So going back to ChatGPT and just the autogoning part, do you
think there's any parts of the design process that are
resistant to automation in the future?
Is there any other part of the process?
Maybe the type creation itself? Well, anything that involves
human perception, don't think you know, it's not until you
create something that I think AIcan use that to build something
(13:17):
else from. So the great thing about humans
is we perceive things and every day we perceive things
differently. We might do something yesterday
that we would change today. Often, you know, when I make a
typeface five years later, I'm like, Oh my God, I need to, you
know, do that again or, or you'll spot something.
You know, that's because you're always growing every day.
(13:38):
You're influenced by the outsideand by what other people do and
your perception changes. And that's, that's what we can
hold on to as creatives for our way to kind of to move through
this, you know, this new space we're entering.
So anything to do any, anything with perceiving weight and, and
(14:01):
space. I think we, you know, it's going
to struggle to get that as well as we perhaps could do it fairly
quickly. And you have to remember that
whatever we make, in order to bedifferent to what these machines
are going to be making, we have to put ourselves into it.
(14:21):
We have to put a bit of our opinion into it, a bit of the
way we see things, because how Isee something is different to
how you see it. So if we can inject that into
our work and find any opportunity to use our ability
to perceive, then I think that'sgoing to be the difference.
I hope, yeah. No, it was definitely a slippery
(14:42):
slope with AI and design in general.
I feel like there's gonna be some changes with licensing and
how people view foundries and independent foundries and
platforms, distributing type formaybe people who are just
starting out or small business owners who don't even know what
a typeface is and they want to create something custom.
(15:03):
Maybe they'll just go to ChatGPTin the future and say, generate
something, and then that makes me scared about the future where
there's bad kerning and bad fonts on the menu, where you go
for dinner and you can't do anything about it.
So yeah. The thing we have to remember is
that there is already bad fonts with bad kerning and bad
(15:23):
specific. Do you know what I mean?
And there there is people that don't see that or they don't
mind that that's the case. And there will always be that
market that will be happy with that because, you know, they're
interested in something else. Whereas for us, we care about
(15:44):
those things or for design studios or big companies that
really care about these things, they won't risk it.
They'll want someone like us to tell them what they need, you
know, because we're the ones that kind of have the the eye
for it. Yeah, it will always be that,
(16:06):
that other market. I mean, it's here already, so
I'm not worried about that. What are the things you evaluate
and refine in a typeface before taking it to business or before
launching it for public? Typeface design is really about
creating a system. It's about space, it's about
proportion. You know, all of those things,
(16:27):
you can't really measure them, you know, you have to look at
them. So that is what I'm constantly
working on on a daily basis is how to crop this system and, you
know, make everything work together.
So there's a nice rhythm to it. So that texture is nice and
even, you know, that type of thing.
They're they're the things that I'm looking at every day.
(16:49):
And it's not something you can look at once and fix.
It's something that, you know, like we were talking about
before giving something time. So, so you can see it.
Yeah. So you'll fix some things, the
big things, and then when you come back there'll be more
things to fix that you didn't see in the first time because
the first time you looked at it,you've solved the big things.
(17:09):
So it's like layered and you cankeep going back.
You'll always find something else to tweak.
So the the more passes you can do on the project that you know,
the better, the more refined it will be.
And hopefully that means a better product at the end of the
day. So what makes you stop at the
end of the day? Because you can go on refining
(17:30):
it forever and it it can take years to develop something that
you're happy with, right? But where do you find that
stopping point for yourself? The stopping point comes where
you, where you've fixed what youcan see.
Again, like I said before, a couple of years later or maybe
two months later, you might picksomething else, find something
else and but it'll be small, youknow.
So I think you, you just have toPolish it as much as you can see
(17:56):
the issues. And then once there's very
little issues that you can see to solve, I think it's it's good
to go. Yeah, no, that's awesome.
I think I should go back to my type design days, but going back
to Adobe Fonts and getting into platforms like that
conversation. So we talked about how people or
(18:18):
platforms are looking for specific kind of typefaces at
one point in time. How do you personally manage
that demand with respect to whatyour brand values are and what
the foundry style is? Do you incorporate that in your
style or how does that process work out?
I mean, it's in the back of my head, but it's not.
(18:39):
It's not the driver. Because it takes so long to make
a typeface, I do not want to be doing what they want me to do
because I'm not going to enjoy it.
So I it's most important for me to be making something that I
feel is a new challenge to me, anew puzzle to figure out,
something exciting to keep me going through all those months
(18:59):
of making it. And then, you know, if someone
else wants it, great. If they don't, well, I've
enjoyed the process. And funny thing about typeface
design is at the beginning, I used to live for the end.
You know it would be that release date, but what you find
out after the first release, it's a bit of a downer.
(19:22):
It only goes in 24 hours and theexcitement is done.
Whereas the process of you know how many months it takes, after
a while you realize that that isthe fun bit.
The the release day can be rather underwhelming and it it's
(19:46):
done and then what do you do? You got to, you got to come up
with another one. Yeah.
So. It's the process goes on.
Yeah, exactly. So I think the enjoyment
definitely is the process and the building and but it can be
frustrating and there can be moments of doubt and moments
(20:06):
where you don't know what to do or you get a little overwhelmed
or you get despondent and feel. Is this really going anywhere?
Yeah. You just have to work through it
and realize that, you know, somedays you feel good about it,
some days you don't, you know? Yeah.
At the end of the day, I think it's also about embracing that
(20:27):
part of the process because it'skind of helping you not look at
it personally. And then I know you're talking
about if you ever pursue the trends, if I may, and now I'm
curious, how do you make your typeface timeless when we're not
looking at things that are current or trendy right now and
we just want to use this font every day?
(20:49):
No, no, I, I try, try to design something that feels fresh to
me, something that I haven't done before.
I don't tend to like, like to make a typeface again, you know,
because the process is boring. You've been there.
So every project I I'm looking for something fresh to me,
something I haven't done before,and then trying to put my
(21:13):
thoughts on it, how it should be, what the leg of the cap are,
should look like or whatever youdo, you know what I mean?
You've got, you've got to put yourself into it for it to be
different. So it's, I'm not sure.
Yeah, I'm not really thinking about whether it's trending or
not. I do like to design typefaces
(21:34):
that aren't to, I don't know, I don't know what the word is, but
I, I guess I like classical shapes and solid forms and, you
know, these, these types of things that tend to last longer.
But who knows? I mean, I'm only three years in,
so maybe it'll go out of fashionwhat I'm doing.
(21:56):
No, I don't think it's one of those things that'll stay
forever. Everyone's going to read, so
yeah, even AI might need help. So with the creative, creative
side of things where you're in the deep end of the process, how
do you balance the licensing andthe value proposition or the
(22:16):
pricing of the typeface? Yeah, that's a great question.
And it's something that I'm still sort of trialing and
learning as I go along. So for me, it's really based on
the size of the family and how many masters I'm drawing from
scratch and then perhaps how many interpolations I can get in
between for less amount of of work perhaps.
(22:39):
So the larger families, I tendedto price individual stars a
little bit less than the smallerfamilies that, you know, perhaps
don't have a huge range of styles.
Also, I like to track how long these things take coming from a
graphic design background where you're always tracking time.
(23:00):
I don't really track time to thehour, but I like to kind of go,
OK, well, that took me 6 months.If I had a job, how much would I
get paid for that? And I'm hoping one day I get at
least that back. You know, your accountant would
probably say you would want three times that back.
I don't know. But who knows that's ever going
(23:21):
to happen. But I like to kind of track that
sort of stuff just so I know what I'm investing to do this.
So yeah. So how do you, how do you kind
of this is in line with what I talked about earlier, but how do
you kind of make it a recurring revenue other than promoting it
on different distributors? Have you found that your
personal Foundry website has helped you with that process?
(23:45):
At the moment I think the Foundry website is growing
slowly and steadily, but it's, Iwouldn't say, you know, a huge
success yet. It's it's a slow game and I
guess for me it's about creatinglittle income streams all over
the place. Like to me, one little type 1
typeface is an income stream, but there's also other income
(24:09):
streams that we have to to kind of make a whole.
So you know, on the other side of the foundry, I have type
masters, which is type design coaching.
So you know, people let it and making a typeface that wants
support through that process. I can help out with that.
So that's another little income stream.
(24:29):
So to me it was about having different ways to make money so
when, when I finish my job, I, you know, could survive.
Yeah, yeah. That's one of the biggest things
I feel like as a small business owner everyone needs to have.
(24:51):
So do you think that your work with type monsters and coaching
design students or designers even get into type influences
your design decisions as well? I think any form of
collaboration is is really great.
It helps you articulate when, when you're, when you're helping
someone else, It helps you articulate for yourself or ask
(25:13):
yourself these questions that perhaps you haven't thought of
before. So any, any form of teaching or
coaching I think is super valuable.
It's an opportunity to, you know, work with people and talk
with people, which in type design we're all, you know, very
solo workers. So that for me was an important
(25:33):
part of the process to have conversation and talk with
people and not just be locked upmaking a font all by myself.
Yeah. So yeah, there there's a lot of
a lot of things that that coaching can provide me as an
individual designer, I think. Yeah, it's part of the process.
(25:54):
I feel like if I would get over and creating something for six
months and just at one point, I feel like it almost takes away
from the process. I would go back to those
conversations and learn from those and how they can help me.
So it's almost like that mentor and mentee relationship where
it's always a two way relationship.
You always learn from each otherand collaborate.
(26:15):
That's, that's really, I admire that a lot.
A lot on the same though of I, I'm curious, how do you approach
marketing without kind of feeling salesy when you're
selling a typeface? Because it's one of those niche
industries and not a lot of people do it.
Yeah, I know it's, it's a tough thing because when you release a
typeface, you want to kind of tell people about it, but you
(26:36):
don't want to constantly bash them over their head with this
thing. So, you know, I've felt a little
uncomfortable before about, you know, releasing A typeface and
then perhaps posting every couple of days more about it.
But I don't know, I think in thefirst week or something, post
away and then then slowly get back-to-back to building more
(26:57):
typefaces and you know, just meeting people, getting to know
people, building a relationships.
So when they're ready to purchase a typeface or maybe
they need help with the typeface, or maybe they needed
buy somewhat typeface to choose,you know, they think of you and
that's all you can do. It's kind of like, you know,
when you're looking for a hairdresser to cut your hair or
(27:18):
a Barber, you're not really looking until you need it, you
know, and then you're looking for one.
So I think it's the same sort ofthing.
You're going to be there when someone's ready to buy.
Do you have a letter form that you test our favorite word that
you write or sketch every time you create a new typeface?
(27:39):
I like to every sketch I do I like to choose a new word and
the word I like to have 5 letters or more because anything
less than 5 it doesn't really look like a word and I want it
to look like a good and nice looking word.
Otherwise it, it affects how thesketch looks.
So it's important for me to havea capital letter and a sender
(28:04):
and a descender in the word. And hopefully, you know, about 6
or 7 characters long at that point, you start to see a font,
you know, if you're just doing O&O, you know, or HONO or
something that's not a typeface,you know, that's yeah.
So there's no personality in those characters generally.
(28:26):
That's the traditional, Yeah, that's, that's how people say
that these are the first two letter forms that people create
when creating a type. And I never understood that
because they seem, yeah, they seem very easy to make.
And the ones that I struggle with are s s and the M's and the
W's. And I'm like, OK, I don't know
(28:47):
how this works. Yeah.
So let's create those first. Well, the enemy O and those
shapes are created first once you have an idea, because you
want to set up your, your spacing and some control
characters that you can when youadd a new character and you can
relate it to. And those characters are very
simple. They have a lot of information
(29:08):
in them with regards to stem weight and vertical weight,
horizontal weight that you can use for your other more
complicated characters, you know.
So that's why we start with them, but we don't.
But there is confusion and that we sit there and sketch ends and
nose and that's not the case. You know, you should be
sketching interesting words and a new word every time you create
(29:29):
a sketch. And then when you start
digitizing, I would then start with an NONP because they're
just the character, the control characters that will help us set
up this design space. And then we can add in the more
complicated characters after that.
So what would you say is your one source of inspiration that
(29:51):
has influenced your type design over the years?
I like to get inspiration from different artists from the
street. I love walking around taking
photos of all signs or graffiti or any any kind of hand marks on
the street are very exciting forme.
Generally not because you're going to see a typeface in in
(30:11):
them, but perhaps they OfferUp anew shape or a new construction
for a letter form that you haven't really thought about.
That's that's always exciting. You know, fashion, furniture
design, you know, those types ofthings are really interesting to
me. I don't tend to look through
specimen books constantly. I may refer to them for, you
(30:33):
know, a historical kind of perspective, but I'm not really
digging through there trying to find something to recreate.
Or generally I want outside input so I can kind of find
something new to play with. Yeah.
So is there a historical typeface or a type designer that
(30:56):
your book is maybe inspired fromor just you generally admire?
Well, because I, I studied at adopt school, I, I guess, you
know, one of the first type designers that I, I kind of
admired was Brown de Dorfs. So, but I wouldn't say that his
work is something that I refer to regularly, but it was
(31:18):
definitely something that openedmy eyes to typeface design and I
was very impressed by that work.Yeah.
I mean, all of those type designgods have influenced us in one
way or another for sure. Absolutely, Yeah, Yeah.
And I'm also curious, what advice would you give to
(31:38):
designers who are trying to makethe shift to a type designer and
now an AI driven bold? Yeah, I would make stuff
constantly make because through making you're going to hone your
skills, you're going to get faster, you're going to figure
out how to make your process better.
If it's all in your head, it's doesn't exist, you know, you've
(32:01):
got to get it down. You've got to start using those
muscles every day, drawing a letter every day.
If that's all you can manage, you know, just working on a
project and and trialing things out, I think is probably the
advice that I was I would give if you're trying to, you know,
get into that area more. All right.
(32:21):
Well, thank you so much, Troy, for being here.
And there will be stuff in the show notes for our listeners.
So if you're listening at home and want to learn type design or
have someone to collaborate withwhile you're creating type at
home, all the other details willbe in the show notes.
Thank you, Troy, again for joining us, and I'll see you on
the other side. Thank you so much.
If this episode got you thinkingabout building a career in type
(32:44):
or taking your work from side project to business, I hope
Troy's story gave you the permission to start.
You can find more of his work atlionstertype.com or follow him
on Instagram for the latest. And if you like this episode,
share it with a designer who's been thinking with type.
New episodes of Ableheads drop regularly, so follow wherever
you're listening and I'll see you on the next one.
Host
Anika Aggarwal
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