November 7, 2025 • 49 mins
Faith, numbers, and land meet in a bold conversation about how Black families—and especially Black mothers—can move from survival to ownership. With guest Tawan Davis, CEO of The Steinbridge Group and NYU adjunct professor, we unpack the cycles behind DEI whiplash and government contraction, then chart a different route: activating underused HBCU and church land, replacing consumer debt with asset-backed leverage, and negotiating from ownership in a global economy that won’t wait for anyone.
We look squarely at the statistics: rising unemployment for Black women, the caregiving load, and a persistent wage gap that stings hardest when paired with student debt. Then we pivot to solutions that build compounding value. Tawan lays out the matching principle in plain language—pair long-term debt with long-term, appreciating assets—and shows how mortgages, whole life policies, and stock portfolios differ from credit cards and car notes. From there, we zoom into practice: structuring projects on HBCU campuses and church-owned land to create housing, services, and jobs while keeping control and sharing upside.
The heart of the story is ancestral. Matriarchs who crossed hostile highways bought homes, welcomed relatives, and built neighborhoods a down payment at a time. Their method still works—small money, big conviction, assets first—and their faith still sets our posture. We carry that ethic into a global frame: build mutual aid and community funds while accessing institutional capital on our terms. It’s not either-or. It’s Ubuntu and underwriting, legacy and leverage, scripture and spreadsheets.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_00 (00:05):
Welcome to the Abolitionist Sanctuary Podcast,
where we talk faith, abolition,and black motherhood.
I am your host, Reverend Dr.
Nikia Smith Robert, the founderand executive director of
Abolitionist Sanctuary.
We are a national coalitionleading a faith-based
(00:26):
abolitionist movement.
Thank you to our audio andvisual audiences for joining us
on YouTube, Instagram, Facebook,and all streaming platforms.
Let's build abolitionistsanctuaries together with this
critical and candid conversationfor today's episode.
(00:53):
Greetings to our viewers andlisteners.
I am excited for today's episodeand to introduce our guest,
Tawan Davis.
Tawan Davis is a foundingpartner and CEO of the
Steinbridge Group.
He is recognized as one ofAmerica's emerging business,
economic, and social leaders.
(01:14):
In this role, Mr.
Davis leads the company bycombining his deep training and
experience in finance andeconomics with a prolific
attention to social activism.
He is also a member ofinvestment and management
committees.
Davis began his career as aninvestment banker with Goldman
(01:35):
Sachs and was later a realestate private equity investor
with Prudential FinancialManaging Investments in Europe
and the United States.
Davis later served as vicepresident and head of public
private partnerships andadministration of New York City
Mayor Michael Bloomberg and asthe chief investment officer of
(01:58):
a$5 billion real estatedevelopment firm.
In addition to leadingSteinbridge, Davis is an adjunct
professor of real estate at NewYork University and serves on
the boards of Harlem Hospital,the New York Urban League, and
the New Horizons Children'sAdvocacy Group.
(02:20):
Tawan Davis earned hisbachelor's degree with honors
from Georgetown University, aMasters of Science degree from
England's Oxford University, anda Master of Business
Administration degree fromHarvard University.
Tawan, welcome.
SPEAKER_02 (02:39):
Good to be with you.
SPEAKER_00 (02:41):
I'm excited to have you on the show.
And as we begin, can you sharewith us what are your pronouns?
Give us a visual of how you'reshowing up in this space and who
are your people.
SPEAKER_02 (02:51):
Sure.
Let's see here.
He, him, his.
I have on a yellow button-downshirt, dark brown with tortoise
spectacles.
My people, I'm anAfrican-American.
My family's been in the UnitedStates for at least 300 years
that we know, and possibly long.
SPEAKER_00 (03:09):
Excellent.
I am wearing a blue pinstripeblazer with a white shirt and a
Fenty MVP lipstick with blondeboho braids.
And my background is a sanctuaryat a local church here in Los
Angeles.
Let's jump right into thequestion of the hour.
(03:32):
Much of your work focuses oneconomic justice.
At Abolitionist Sanctuary, wealso focus on the economy with a
specific interest in Blackmotherhood and the
criminalization of survival.
Can you talk to us about thesignificance of black women and
black mothers for the U.S.
(03:52):
economy?
SPEAKER_02 (03:53):
First of all, to clarify by background, I'm
sitting in my New York officeand have a white background with
a red penny.
Certainly, I think what isunique about the participation
of African-American women in theAmerican economy is by both
necessity and opportunity, theyhave over time carved out unique
(04:15):
niches for themselves that havecreated significant wealth for
our community and propelled ourcommunity at times when there
may be or appear to be feweropportunities than should be
available to us.
I think Madame C.J.
Walker is a great example ofthat.
A woman who became the firstAfrican-American millionaire,
male or female, and one of thefirst self-made women
(04:37):
millionaires of any color in theUnited States because she
focused on an area specific tothe African-American community.
That's African-American hair.
So I think that theseopportunities that have emerged
in our community are oftendriven by unique needs that
aren't being addressed by theblack market.
(04:57):
African-American women havefound ways through generations
to capitalize on that and tocommercialize all the
opportunities.
SPEAKER_00 (05:03):
Excellent.
And we're also seeing that Blackwomen are thriving in industries
such as the government, teachingpositions, social services, and
civic positions.
SPEAKER_01 (05:18):
Sure.
SPEAKER_00 (05:18):
We are seeing a backlash that is directly
affecting Black women, thinkingparticularly of African
Americans seeing the highestunemployment rate since 2021,
which is currently at 7.5% as ofAugust, and the 300,000 Black
women who were forced out of theworkplace.
While Black women have lost319,000 jobs from February to
(05:43):
July 2025, white men have gained365,000 jobs during that same
period.
What can you tell us about thereasons for this economic
disparity and how has the Trumpadministration adversely
impacted black women and theblack community?
SPEAKER_02 (06:02):
Let's take a broader context.
The African-American middleclass rose after the Civil
Rights Act and the VotingRackets Act of respectively 64
and 65.
And then again in the early1970s with the passage of
affirmative action, which Billywould point to somewhere between
1972 and 1974, the United Stateseconomy is over 400 years old.
(06:27):
The African-American economy andits relative independence and
participation is only about 60years old.
It began with the Civil RightsAct.
That's the first context.
Second thing to understand isthat for the first 350 years of
African American history,African Americans were largely
(06:49):
unable to participate in theways in which Americans make,
save, and pass along money.
So not allowed to have bankaccounts, now participation in
the stock exchanges, no boardseats, and certainly during
slavery, no inheritance.
And so it's important to put theAfrican American economic
(07:12):
context into the broader contextof American economic history.
The last thing I would say isthat if you think about how the
African-American middle classemerged after the Civil Rights
Act and after affirmativeactions, there were two
industries that drove theimmersion of the
African-American economy.
The first industry was theautomotive industry.
(07:32):
So the largest employer ofAfrican Americans after the
Great Migration into the Midwestand the North, the Stendheast,
Ohio, Michigan, and upstate NewYork, was the automotive
industry.
The second largest employer thatcreated the African American
middle class was the governmentat every level, federal, state,
(07:54):
and local government.
And that is why when thegovernment begins to shrink,
when there is specific targetingof large amounts of folks
employed in the public sector,it has an unusually powerful
effect on the African Americancommunity and African-American
women, because that is theirlargest employment opportunity.
(08:18):
So you'll see what happened afew times in American history.
In the 1980s, when PresidentReagan began to shrink the
federal government, you saw anunusual climb in African
American unemployment inparticular.
In the late 80s and early 90s,with the collapsed large
portions of the automotiveindustry, you also saw a spike
(08:39):
in African Americanunemployment, particularly among
African men, and thensecondarily among African men.
So what we are seeing today isthe fact that because the
administration has sought todramatically shrink the United
States government, that impactsthe African-American economy
dramatically because of themiddle class's source of
(09:03):
employment being largely orinitially in the government
space.
And then secondarily, all ofthese other industries, but
automotive and government havebeen the largest employers.
And so what you're saying is notjust the impact of DEI, it is
actually the broader impact ofgovernment shrinkage.
SPEAKER_00 (09:20):
It seems as though the government is playing both
sides and continually changingand moving the standard.
And what I mean by that is whenwe looked at welfare reform
policies, it actually punishedsingle women, particularly Black
women, for not working.
And now what we see is thegovernment's participation and
(09:42):
essentially forcing Black womenoutside of employment.
And so it seems like it putsBlack women and Black
communities, those who benefitfrom DEI and otherwise, between
a rock and a hard place.
Damn if they do, damn if theydon't.
And so there are multiple waysin which Black communities are
(10:05):
disadvantaged.
And for the sake of abolitionistsanctuary in our organization,
we focus specifically on thesurvival of Black mothers.
So I hear you saying, and Iagree, that part of the problem
is historical disadvantage thatBlack women and Black
communities have experienced,and that has showed up with
(10:26):
unemployment.
I'm curious to know what otherunique challenges are there,
particularly when we look atdebt profiles.
Black women are the mosteducated demographic.
We also see that studentforgiveness has been eliminated
by this administration.
I imagine, at least for my ownprofile, having a terminal
degree, that black women alsocarry substantial debt as being
(10:48):
the most educated.
Black women are also the primarycaregivers in about 80% of our
households.
However, we make only 63 centsto the dollar of white men.
We are poorer than every otherethnic group except for Native
American.
Talk to us about the impactusing this racial, gender, class
lens.
What is the impact for debt forblack women in addition to the
(11:10):
challenges of unemployment?
And how does that also factorinto what you know about the
housing market?
SPEAKER_02 (11:17):
Here's my United States as an enterprise has
rarely, if ever, expressed avested interest in the long-term
economic well-being of African.
So the idea that the UnitedStates government is going to
rescue us from economic peril isabsurd.
(11:39):
At the very beginning, in 1789,when the Constitution is
written, there was only onegroup of people explicitly
carved out in Article I of theConstitution, and that was
enslaved persons.
And so the United Statesgovernment sanctioned and
incorporated into its foundingdocument.
(12:00):
We haven't written anotherconstitution, we incorporated
into our founding document theeconomic subjugation of people
of African descent.
After the Civil War, there wasan attempt, rather briefly, in
reconstruction to build anindependent African-American
economy.
(12:20):
The most famous initiative was40 acres and a mule, which was
General Sherman's idea of as hewas working his way from South
Carolina down through Georgia inthe defeating of the
Confederates to turn over theplantations to slades and 40
acres and mule.
(12:41):
After Lincoln died and AndrewJohnson emerged as president,
the other generals in otherparts of the country objected to
the idea.
That whole idea basically fellapart.
Reconstruction lasted only untilthe re-establishment of Southern
participation in the federalgovernment and in
Reconstruction.
(13:02):
And so the idea that the UnitedStates government is going to
come to the rescue of theAfrican-American economy is a
fool's error.
I believe is more important forAfrican American people to
figure out together how toactivate our own economic
(13:22):
resources.
That is what I feel called todo.
I am not one to point togovernment programs and
dependence or policies becauseit will change every two, four,
eight years.
When DEI emerged, my CFO was aremarkably accomplished
African-American team, one ofthe most famous black women in
(13:45):
the history of Wall Street wasmy CFO at the time.
And she and I discussed how longwould this last.
We said about 18 months, and wewere right almost to the day.
Because she's in a generationbefore me, and she's seen this
cycle before.
I am in my late 40s.
I have seen this cycle before.
And so I think we have to acceptthat idea and go back to the
(14:10):
premise of what do we do forourselves?
That's my answer to DEI, andthat's my answer to government
programs and welfare and all ofthese things, which are helpful
from time to time, but on whichwe cannot depend.
SPEAKER_00 (14:28):
Well said, I completely agree that the U.S.
has only been interested in theexploitation of our labor and
bodies, and the foundingdocuments never factored in
non-European or non-whiteproperty holding bodies.
The Constitution was written forwhite property-holding men.
And anyone outside of thatdidn't benefit from the same
(14:49):
protections.
We see through capitalism,particularly racial capitalism,
that it is designed to benefitand exploit those who are of the
lower classes.
So I agree with you, and I alsoagree with your turn to the
intervention of how to createself-sustaining economies.
I've worked with a village inMalawi, and I'm interested to
(15:11):
see how we can harness thecommunal values that we see
across the African diaspora tobuild economic empowerment so
that we are independent ofgovernment intervention.
And so I want to know what aresome of the ways are you doing
that with Steinbridge and yourwork?
SPEAKER_02 (15:30):
One of my favorite sermons is by Adam Clinton
Powell.
SPEAKER_00 (15:34):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (15:35):
And it's 1968.
He goes through the Bible and hesays, God said Moses shows up at
the Red Sea and he's worriedabout crossing the Red Sea.
He or God have a conversationand God asks him, What's in your
hand?
The same rod that was used whenyou threw it down and it became
(15:57):
a snake.
But when you turn the AnnihilateRiver into blood, stretch out
that same rod and cross the RedSea.
Then he talks about David, andhe says, David shows up to
battle with Goliath, and he hasa slingshot and five smooth
stones.
King Saul puts on all of thisarmor and sins and out.
(16:18):
David says, This doesn't workfor me.
And God tells David, you don'tneed the armor, you don't need
King Saul's sword.
Use what's in your hand.
So Reverend Clayton Powell'spoint was that we are often
(16:38):
looking outside of ourcommunities for the resources
and momentum to economicallymove ourselves further along.
But the reality is that God isasking us what's in your hand.
What do we are charged to do tobe optimize the resources, the
(17:02):
land resources, the economicresources, the human resources,
the relational resources that wehave.
And we are charged to optimizethat to maximum outcome, maximum
family outcome, maximumhealthcare outcome, maximum
educational outcome, and maximumeconomic outcome.
(17:23):
What does that mean for ourbusiness?
It means that we're trying toidentify, I'm in the real estate
space, we're trying to identifywhere there are resources within
our community that own land,that own real estate, and we are
trying to help those landownersactivate that land to
economically productive uses.
There are 105 historically blackcolleges.
(17:46):
Many of them own land in verywell-located parts of the United
States.
Some of them are land grantcolleges that have had that land
since the 1860s.
That land's often underutilized,whereas you have some of the
larger universities, stateuniversities, the Ivy League,
who own and have activated everysingle piece of land around
(18:08):
them.
Well, why aren't ouruniversities doing the same
thing?
So we're working withuniversities.
We've committed$100 million tohistorically black colleges and
universities to help themactivate their underutilized
land.
We're also doing that withchurches.
We're working with severalchurches in the United States
right now, large congregationsand some of the main African
(18:28):
nations to identify land intheir collective religious folk
that sometimes is in the middleof the best growth, economic
growth past in their town.
And we're helping them toactivate that land into
economically productive use ofanother country.
And so I'm building on what Iheard Reverend Powell say, and
(18:50):
that is trying to identifywhat's in our hand and use that
as my slingshot and my stone,and use that as my rod over the
Red Sea and not wait forsomebody to come along and
rescue.
All right, Evan.
SPEAKER_00 (19:05):
Speak more about real estate.
Why is real estate and the landimportant for our community?
SPEAKER_02 (19:11):
Real estate is roughly 20 to 25% of the United
States' economy, real estate andadjacent industries and
activities.
One-third of the net worth ofthe average American household
is in the value of the home thatthey own.
We are living in a post-pensionsociety where most people don't
even have a pension.
They're lucky if they've got asolid 401k.
(19:32):
In that context, real estate isone of the most sustainable ways
to lift an individual and afamily out of poverty.
It is also one of thesustainable ways for
institutions to muster,increase, and be good stewards
of wealth over the long term.
(19:52):
And so it's a key factor inactually helping to respond to
the economic disparity in theAfrican American.
And it is most important, Dr.
Robert, because it's what wehave.
SPEAKER_00 (20:07):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (20:08):
It's one of those things that the African-American
Church is a powerful institutionbecause the African American
Church owns its own land.
SPEAKER_01 (20:16):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (20:17):
There's not a single African-American company traded
on the New York Stock Exchangetoday that has enjoyed the
ownership of African American.
There's one started by anAfrican-American person, someone
who's Jewish, and it he starteda company and he's now owns a
small part of it.
He's a CBO.
But if you look at the New YorkStock Exchange, the NASA, the
American Stock Exchange, therearen't any African-American
(20:39):
habits.
So where is our wealth?
Where are the institutions wherewe can point to collective
wealth?
They're really not true.
It is historically by college,and it is the church.
That's where we have largeamounts of money, large amounts
of cash flow, large amounts ofregular predictable income.
(21:00):
It's in the church and it's inthe HBCU.
And when I say large, I meanmulti-billion dollars, not a few
hundred thousand, not a fewmillion, if you collectivize
those institutions, thoseeconomically impactful
institutions.
And so that's why a church,that's why the HBCU, and that's
why the land, because that'stheir large land.
SPEAKER_00 (21:21):
Talk about what are some of the barriers and what
are some breaks that we'reseeing in the economy,
particularly with the interestrate cuts, but then some of the
historical barriers, such asredlining, you have
environmental challenges.
I'm thinking of the black middleclass community in Altadena,
close to where I live, that 54families in my church lost their
(21:44):
homes to the Eaton Canyonwildfires, which one would argue
is also a racially systemicissue.
What are some of the barriershistorically, environmentally?
And then when you thinkeconomically, we we already
mentioned the challenges Blackwomen in particular face with
poverty, debt, and so forth.
How do those challenges hinderwealth creation or becoming
(22:08):
self-sustaining within the blackcommunity?
SPEAKER_02 (22:10):
Well, that's a good question.
Let's go back to the debt issueand then let's talk about the
real estate issue, HurricaneKatrina.
My family was in somethingcalled the Van War floods from
the 1940s in the PacificNorthwest.
When it rains, it always floodsin the African Americans.
That's important then to talkabout.
So let's talk about debt.
This is America.
(22:30):
Everybody's in debt.
United States government has$37trillion.
Every publicly tradedcorporation issues bonds, and
bonds are basically borrowingfrom individual investors.
Every city issues municipalbonds, and all bonds are
borrowing to do work.
Debt isn't the problem.
(22:52):
The problem is the kind of debtthat we get.
There's something in accountingcalled the matching principle.
The idea is that you're supposedto match your liabilities with
your assets in terms of time.
So you match your long-termliabilities with your long-term
assets and your short-termliabilities with your short-term
assets.
You're not just matching it interms of dollar amounts, but in
(23:16):
terms of duration.
What does that mean?
That means we are taking on alot of long-term debt and we're
not matching it with a long-termasset that will appreciate any
time.
We're taking on credit carddebt, car notes, even education
notes, against which there is noidentifiable increase in asset
(23:39):
in value.
So you have this debt thatbasically ends up personal debt
because it's not secured by, ornot covered by, or not creating
additional wealth for youbecause it's not associated with
an asset that is increasing invalue.
Automotive loans are my favoriteexample.
(23:59):
But I don't have a loan in partbecause it's a depreciating
asset.
You want to be careful not tomatch an increase in liability
because that debt is going to bethere.
And you're going to have toservice that debt with a rapidly
decreasing asset.
Similar to credit cards.
You have to be very careful withthe use of credit cards.
(24:19):
I only have one credit card, andthat's used entirely for my
company's activities.
That is because I want to becareful about taking on a credit
card debt, is a short-termliability that doesn't really
give me any access to moreassets.
So what are the kinds of debtthat give you access to more
(24:40):
assets?
A mortgage.
SPEAKER_00 (24:46):
And land doesn't appreciate.
SPEAKER_02 (24:48):
Land doesn't appreciate, exactly.
If you have a long-term assetagainst something that increases
in value, insurance policies.
If you have a good insurancepolicy, a whole life policy,
that whole life policy willincrease in value.
Borrow against that.
That's an asset.
If you have certain stocks,careful.
If you have stocks or asincreasing value, if you need
(25:11):
money, don't pull it.
Borrow against that.
Borrow against things that havelong-term value.
And do two things.
When you're finished using themoney, either put it back or buy
more things with long-termvalue.
If you borrow against yourhouse, do not borrow against
(25:31):
your home to pay your bills.
That's a recipe for disaster.
Churches do it all the time.
They borrow against new pastorcomes in, he wants to fix the
roof, he takes out a secondmortgage.
Usually not a great idea.
New pastor comes in, he wants todo an outreach program to the
community, takes out a mortgageon the church.
Usually not a good idea becauseit's a short-term liability.
(25:52):
So what you want to focus on isgetting out of consumer debt and
then trying to find assets thathave long-term value.
And then if you have to borrowor choose to borrow, borrow
against those long-term assets.
And then when you're finishedusing that hash, you pay that
account or use that cash to buymore long-term assets.
(26:14):
So buy another business withanother mortgage, or buy more
stocks, or invest more in your401k, but use that borrowed cash
for additional long-term assets.
That is what wealthy people do,working folks, and everyday
folks aren't told to do.
Everyday folks are told stay outof debt.
(26:36):
What you need to be told is tostay out of bad debt, stay out
of consumer debt, and focus onborrowing for things for which
there is long-term valuecreation.
SPEAKER_00 (26:48):
Thank you for that.
I hope our listeners were ableto follow that crash course on
how to use good debt and stayaway from bad debt in order to
optimize wealth creation.
As you know, Tawan, you and Imet while I was working on Wall
Street.
And so with a background inpublic accounting and investment
banking, you are talking mylanguage.
(27:10):
But we also have to bear in mindthat there are systemic
inequities that nullify some ofthe prudence you've mentioned in
terms of managing debt.
There's bad debt that's not justconsumer debt, but it's also the
ways in which we live in thiscapitalist society that seeks to
(27:32):
exploit and extract the labor ofBlack and brown bodies that will
rather invest in the creation ofprisons, for example, than to
allocate funds to socialprograms that would help Black
families and marginalizedcommunities to thrive.
I understand that leverage canbe good, but there's been a debt
(27:52):
by society that has been moredetrimental, more damaging than
personal finance could navigatewhen we're up against systemic
inequities.
But that's not to say I'm nothopeful and that it's not
prudent to follow the insightsthat you shared with us.
I think that's invaluable.
But I want to go back to whatyou mentioned about the HBCUs
(28:14):
and the churches.
I think there's something reallyimportant here that I want to
extract is that you areidentifying the HBCUs and the
churches as primary institutionsfor the black community to amass
power and economic wealth.
If these institutions invest inreal estate as one form of
(28:38):
impact investment, that willtrickle down to the black
community in ways that we wouldbe independent of government
intervention.
SPEAKER_02 (28:48):
I believe that churches and historical black
colleges are two paths to what Icall full economic
participation.
The United States is the mostpowerful economic engine in the
history of mankind.
The African American communityis the wealthiest African
community in the world.
We are the wealthiest AfricanBrazil, Africa, Caribbean.
(29:09):
The African-American is thewealthiest African on the globe.
And so, in fact, we do not wantto sit out the American economy.
We want full participation.
Wait, let me stop in there too.
SPEAKER_00 (29:24):
Do we want participation or do we want to
build something better?
It sounds like you're sayingboth.
SPEAKER_02 (29:30):
No, I'm not.
I'm not saying that we want tobuild something better.
It's because individually, as acommunity, we don't have the
resources to outstrip themammoth that is the American
economy.
SPEAKER_03 (29:40):
Okay.
SPEAKER_02 (29:41):
If you put all the African American churches
together, their annual type andoffering is about$14 billion.
That is still smaller than thesmallest company in Fortune 500.
So even if you put all of theAfrican American churches
together, it doesn't be quality.
Economy as far as revenuecollection is concerned.
(30:04):
So, yes, I believe in thecollectivization, but I also am
realistic in the ability for usto actually set up a fully
independent economy.
What I would like for us to dois to go do what the civil
rights was at was leading ustoward.
And that's full participation,just like all other immigrants
(30:25):
to the American system.
Remember, nobody's from here.
Everybody here, save the NativeAmericans, is from somewhere
else.
And so, inasmuch as everyoneelse whose ancestors are from
the uh far-flung beautifulplaces of the world, we Africans
(30:47):
in America are also from one ofthe far-flung beautiful places
of the world.
And we have participated in thecreation of what is the American
kind.
I knew my great-grandmother.
I knew mygreat-great-grandmother, who was
the 11th of 11 children.
Her parents were born intoslavery in Mississippi, and then
she and her children moved toArkansas where there were
(31:09):
sharecrawlers.
And why would I give up theAmerica that they helped to
build?
Why would I walk away from theeconomic juggernaut that my
ancestors helped to create?
Part of the wealth of Americabelongs to African-American
(31:33):
people because we helped buildit.
So I do not believe that webuild a salary economy.
I believe we begin toparticipate fully in the economy
we helped to create.
I have a very different view.
I'm not anti-American economy.
I actually want African-Americanmen, women, and children to
participate fully in theeconomy.
(31:54):
Work, unpaid work of ourancestors, and the sweat and
tears of our mothers andfathers.
The economy that we helped buildactually belongs to us.
And so I don't believe inwalking away from it.
I believe in fighting for andfiguring out ways to participate
in it fully.
SPEAKER_00 (32:12):
That's very interesting.
And I agree that much of thiscountry's flourishing was built
on the backs of indigenous andblack labor.
We think about what has beenstolen from us in terms of our
bodies and labor in theantebellum south and slavery and
the plantation, whether it'scomic leasing, whether it's
(32:32):
modern-day slavery through massincarceration.
We look at Black Wall Street,right?
You mentioned the Reconstructionera.
There are many ways in whichBlack people have contributed to
the American economy.
I'll just say that I still am abit confused on your argument
that we can be independent andfully participate in the
American economy.
(32:53):
Another approach, I think, wouldbe this argument about
reparations, as well as theabolitionist argument, right?
Let's take our resources andbuild something better where we
are truly independent, right?
Because the master's toolscannot dismantle the master's
house.
And so let's build somethingdifferent.
(33:14):
Speak to that.
SPEAKER_02 (33:16):
Well, I would say that the participation, for
example, let's start with that.
So let's say that you go to a uha large denomination and you
want to build economicallyimpactful development right in
the middle of Atlanta.
(33:39):
Where do you get the money?
In today's economy, the largestAfrican-American bank is only
$800 million in assets.
The largest non-African-Americanbank is$3 trillion.
And if you look at it globally,it's closer to$6 trillion.
SPEAKER_00 (33:58):
So let me answer your question.
How did your great-grandmother,grandmother, mother pull their
resources together to get you toGeorge Washington University and
invest in your upward mobility,right?
I think what we see, thealternative, is this communal
(34:19):
ethic of Ubuntu and mutual aid,whether it is the women's club
movement in the 19th century,whether it's the church fish
fry, whether it's a mutual aidsociety, we have seen black
people pull their resourcestogether, making the argument
that we are all we need.
So when you ask where do we getthe money for that loan, we
(34:39):
build it organically and make itto the billions.
SPEAKER_02 (34:43):
I believe in that 100%, but I'm saying it's not
either whole.
SPEAKER_00 (34:47):
Okay.
SPEAKER_02 (34:48):
I believe in it 100%.
My grandmothers turned over theland in Portland, Oregon,
donated the land that is now theVancouver Atman First Baptist
Church.
And it stood there almost 100years, at least 80, 90 years
ago.
So I believe in that.
SPEAKER_01 (35:03):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (35:03):
We live in a global economy.
It is unwise for us not toaccept that idea.
We live in a global,interconnected economy, and we
want that because we don't justwant the African American
community to be gold.
SPEAKER_01 (35:17):
We want Ghana's community to be gold.
SPEAKER_02 (35:21):
We want Nigeria's economy to be goal.
We want Jamaica's economy to begold because we want them to be
able to participate in theglobal economy, to buy and sell
on the global markets.
We want people to buy thingsthat are made in Ghana.
We want people to buy thingsthat are made in Jamaica so that
Jamaica can increase.
So we actually don't want to sitout the global economy.
(35:42):
President Reagan predicted thebad outcomes of tariffs.
Here we are, with high tariffsthat began to cause a downward
spiral in the economy.
Why?
Because sitting out the globaleconomy, no matter how big you
(36:06):
are or how impactful youreconomy, it actually is a bad
idea.
So we don't want the Americaneconomy to have two high
tariffs, that it sits out theglobal economy.
And we don't want the AfricanAmerican economy to sit out with
the global economy.
We actually want to participatein the economy as it goes, not
just the American economy, butthe global economy.
(36:27):
So I'm not saying either or, I'msaying and.
We absolutely want to bind ourresources together in as much as
we have them and apply them tothe things to which they can be
applied.
But we also want to be open totrade with Japan and France.
And we want the folks in Ohio totrade with the people in
Washington state, because thatis the reality of the global
(36:49):
economy.
I think it is thinking too smalland not recognizing the global
economic realities to accept theidea that something I have on
today, either my thread or abutton, was made somewhere else.
And that's not going to stop.
If we face that reality, then wecan do both what you described
and have the fish fry and thelady society, but we can also
(37:12):
figure out how to access capitaland opportunities globally,
including the United States andaround.
So I'm not disagreeing with you.
SPEAKER_00 (37:20):
I'm just adding to the When I think about the
global economy, I wonder fromyour expertise: do we need
France?
Do we need China?
Africa, with all of its naturalresources and wealth, can there
be this global economy acrossthe African diaspora,
independent of Europeancountries and other markets?
SPEAKER_01 (37:44):
That's a powerful question.
SPEAKER_02 (37:51):
Here's why I don't think that's a great idea.
SPEAKER_01 (37:53):
Okay.
SPEAKER_02 (37:55):
Adam Smith on Wealth of Nations.
Yeah.
It's a basic idea of competitiveand comparative advantage.
Who does what?
Nigeria has oil.
But so does Norway, SaudiArabia, and so does Texas.
There may not be enough oil inNigeria to power the whole of
(38:16):
Africa.
There might not be.
So if there's not, you stillwant Botswana to get away.
So they're gonna need maybe tobuy from Norway.
But on the other hand, Norway iscold.
They don't have large wheatproduction in Norway.
(38:36):
So you want them to buy in Eurosor whatever it is, the corner,
whatever it's there.
You want them to buy Botswanaand wheat.
You want them to send Norwegianmoney to Botswana so that some
farmer in Botswana gets richerthan he ever thought.
Here's why is because I do goback to the idea that ultimately
the earth is the forest.
(38:59):
The earth is the force and thefullness thereof.
The land and they that dwelttherein.
And so, on the one hand, yes, weshould be driven by the
opportunities that need toimpact the growth of
African-American people and theAfrican diaspora.
We should not forget that theearth is the force.
And so the resources of theearth don't just belong to
(39:23):
Europe, and they don't justbelong to Africa.
We are stewards of the resourcesthat God has given us on the
earth, but they all belongeventually to all of us.
That's my view.
And it is a little bit nuancedbecause I am very much focused
on impacting theAfrican-American communities.
(39:44):
But I also see the world asglobal.
I see God's creation from maybea bar context.
SPEAKER_00 (39:52):
Thank you.
I know our time is coming to anend.
So I just want you to invoke thestories of the women in your
life, particularly yourgreat-grandmother, mother, your
lineage.
What has been the power of blackwomen in your life?
And how has their survivalstrategies informed your faith
(40:14):
and the work that you do for theeconomy?
SPEAKER_02 (40:17):
Sure.
I have often said that everycorner you get to the street,
and you have to figure out howto cross the street or turn the
corner.
Every intersection, there hasbeen an African-American
standing there, either to helpme cross the street or to point
me in the right direction.
I can go all the way back to mygreat-great-grandmother, whom I
(40:38):
born in 1896, to her daughter,her sisters, who moved up as
migrant workers from Arkansas,drove across the United States
because there were no hotels forAfrican Americans to stay in
between Arkansas and Oregon.
So they took the cell and wentthrough Texas because going to
some of those other states wasthe Warren Circle West through
(40:59):
Texas to all the way to Parisand Pennsylvania.
Got California and then drovenorth, the IFA core.
They did that in the 1830s, 40s,and 1950s.
Got to Oregon, there were noextended state hotels.
There was no real welcomingopportunity for African
Americans to house temporarilywhile they were doing sealed
(41:23):
work and day work.
My day work was their dignifiedway to say they were housemates.
I didn't realize what dating wasuntil I was a teenager.
When she was saying to me, shewas a housemaid.
SPEAKER_00 (41:38):
She was a domestic.
SPEAKER_02 (41:40):
Domestic.
And with that money, she boughtfive ten houses.
And her sister bought five orten houses.
Her other sister bought a fewhouses.
So between all of them, when therest of the family came from
Arkansas to the PacificNorthwest, they would start in
one of my grandmothers, one ofmy great-aunts' homes, and get
on their feet, get their familyall, their immediate family up
(42:04):
to Oregon, and then they wouldbuy a house.
And so there's a great bookcalled The Ones of Other Sons by
Isabel Wars.
And there's a section in ourchapters that specifically talks
about the migration ofAfrican-American people from
Arkansas to the PacificNorthwest.
When I grew up, I didn't meetanybody whose grandparents were
from the Carolinas or fromVirginia until I went to
(42:25):
college.
Everyone I grew up with, theirgrandparents were the ones.
And these women built thiscommunity by, like you said,
fish fry and the kind of petitebourgeois approach, right?
A little at a time and you moveon.
That's how we did hand-to-handcombat.
Those are the women who impactedmy life and created for me the
(42:46):
context of self-determination.
And then, of course, thecommunity changed.
And you had the 1960s riots, youhad heroin in the 70s, you had
disinvestment in the 80s, youhad gangs in the 90s.
And Colin Morgan, there's agreat study that talks about why
it became a center for gang biasin the 1990 late 80s and 1990s
(43:09):
after California passed thisthree-strike shroud law.
A lot of that ducked to my carpart of the country.
So part of the country that theyhelped build as a refuge haven
for African-American migrantswas suddenly distorted by the
scourge of bad policy and ofeven natural drug crises.
(43:30):
But those women were able toshare with me the clarity of
their convictions.
They told me enough of thestories that I can remember to
help me understand, maybe notall the times, the what, but the
why.
(43:50):
And those two whys were alwaysGod and family.
They were always God and family.
And so even though I canremember some stories I can't
tell without tears in my eyes, Iremember my mother's face when
she taught me how to read Psalm23.
(44:15):
By the way, she had aneighth-grade education, best,
maybe seventh grade.
But when I would open up Psalm23 and read it to her, she would
say, That's not strong enough.
She would say, Start over.
Throw your shoulders, put yourhead up, and start over.
And I would say, The Lord is myshepherd.
She'd say, No, no, no.
She just called me.
She said, no, buddy, that's notright.
(44:36):
If I say the Lord is myshepherd, she said, no, no, no.
Start over.
I would say, Big Mom, what doyou mean?
She said, when you read it,throw your head back and say,
the Lord is my shepherd.
The idea.
And God of the universe.
SPEAKER_01 (44:53):
Life at eight years old.
Breathtaking idea.
So focus, clarity, deepconviction.
That life is not about me as anindividual.
SPEAKER_02 (45:08):
It is about us.
SPEAKER_00 (45:09):
Yes.
SPEAKER_02 (45:11):
The God of the universe is involved in that.
SPEAKER_00 (45:15):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (45:17):
It remains with me.
SPEAKER_00 (45:18):
Yes.
SPEAKER_02 (45:19):
And so to women in their life.
That is my greater grandmother.
That is my grandmother.
That is my mother who ultimatelyhad to raise me by herself.
SPEAKER_01 (45:27):
Yes.
Strength.
SPEAKER_00 (45:34):
I am also a product of a single black mother, and I
am getting chills just hearingabout the survival strategy.
SPEAKER_02 (45:43):
Same clarity.
Same fortitude.
SPEAKER_01 (45:45):
Yes.
SPEAKER_02 (45:46):
That's what gives me who I am today.
That's what gives me the greatconfidence in the calling,
despite disadvantages andchallenges.
SPEAKER_00 (46:04):
We honor them, Tuan.
This is the work we do atAbolitionist Sanctuary.
We lift up the stories ofresilient black women who
society would otherwisedisregard according to negative
stereotypes.
Instead, we reappraise andreclaim their survival
strategies as a source ofsalvation.
It saves our lives, that theywere able to make a way out of
(46:25):
no way.
Thank you for embodying that andsharing your story with us.
Extremely powerful.
I deeply admire how the workthat you do in real estate to
empower the Black community is afull circle moment that pays
tribute to those Black women whotook a little to do a lot,
(46:46):
starting with real estate tobuild their family lineage.
All right, we're gonna end high.
SPEAKER_01 (47:08):
Money more faith.
Always health honor.
SPEAKER_00 (47:19):
Freedom.
Black mothers.
SPEAKER_01 (47:28):
Thank you.
SPEAKER_00 (47:29):
Your favorite food?
Favorite church song.
SPEAKER_02 (47:35):
Order my steps.
SPEAKER_00 (47:37):
Favorite color?
SPEAKER_02 (47:39):
Navy.
SPEAKER_00 (47:40):
Favorite thing to do?
Biggest pet peeve.
SPEAKER_02 (47:45):
People will make noise when they chew.
SPEAKER_00 (47:49):
Greatest fear.
Spines and snakes.
Turn up or Netflix and chill.
SPEAKER_01 (47:57):
Ooh.
How about 50-50?
SPEAKER_00 (48:02):
And finally, abolitionist Sanctuary.
SPEAKER_01 (48:07):
An impactful hundred.
SPEAKER_00 (48:10):
Thank you so much.
Thank you for joining thisconversation on the Abolitionist
Sanctuary podcast.
Please download and share on allplatforms.
I am your host, Reverend Dr.
Nikia Smith Robert, the founderand director of Abolitionist
Sanctuary.
Follow us on YouTube, Instagram,Facebook, and download our
social mobile app.
(48:30):
Also enroll in our courses atabolitionacademy.com.
Don't forget to become a memberand subscribe to our mailing
list atabolitionistsanctuary.org.
As we conclude this episode,remember that abolition is not
only a practice, but it is a wayof life.
And for me, abolition is myreligion.
Let's lead a faith basedabolitionist movement together.
(48:53):
Thank you, Tawan, for joiningus.
We appreciate the time you'vespent on our show.
SPEAKER_02 (48:58):
Thank you.
Thank you, Red.
Welcome to the Abolitionist Sanctuary Podcast,
where we talk faith, abolition,and black motherhood.
I am your host, Reverend Dr.
Nikia Smith Robert, the founderand executive director of
Abolitionist Sanctuary.
We are a national coalitionleading a faith-based
(00:26):
abolitionist movement.
Thank you to our audio andvisual audiences for joining us
on YouTube, Instagram, Facebook,and all streaming platforms.
Let's build abolitionistsanctuaries together with this
critical and candid conversationfor today's episode.
(00:53):
Greetings to our viewers andlisteners.
I am excited for today's episodeand to introduce our guest,
Tawan Davis.
Tawan Davis is a foundingpartner and CEO of the
Steinbridge Group.
He is recognized as one ofAmerica's emerging business,
economic, and social leaders.
(01:14):
In this role, Mr.
Davis leads the company bycombining his deep training and
experience in finance andeconomics with a prolific
attention to social activism.
He is also a member ofinvestment and management
committees.
Davis began his career as aninvestment banker with Goldman
(01:35):
Sachs and was later a realestate private equity investor
with Prudential FinancialManaging Investments in Europe
and the United States.
Davis later served as vicepresident and head of public
private partnerships andadministration of New York City
Mayor Michael Bloomberg and asthe chief investment officer of
(01:58):
a$5 billion real estatedevelopment firm.
In addition to leadingSteinbridge, Davis is an adjunct
professor of real estate at NewYork University and serves on
the boards of Harlem Hospital,the New York Urban League, and
the New Horizons Children'sAdvocacy Group.
(02:20):
Tawan Davis earned hisbachelor's degree with honors
from Georgetown University, aMasters of Science degree from
England's Oxford University, anda Master of Business
Administration degree fromHarvard University.
Tawan, welcome.
SPEAKER_02 (02:39):
Good to be with you.
SPEAKER_00 (02:41):
I'm excited to have you on the show.
And as we begin, can you sharewith us what are your pronouns?
Give us a visual of how you'reshowing up in this space and who
are your people.
SPEAKER_02 (02:51):
Sure.
Let's see here.
He, him, his.
I have on a yellow button-downshirt, dark brown with tortoise
spectacles.
My people, I'm anAfrican-American.
My family's been in the UnitedStates for at least 300 years
that we know, and possibly long.
SPEAKER_00 (03:09):
Excellent.
I am wearing a blue pinstripeblazer with a white shirt and a
Fenty MVP lipstick with blondeboho braids.
And my background is a sanctuaryat a local church here in Los
Angeles.
Let's jump right into thequestion of the hour.
(03:32):
Much of your work focuses oneconomic justice.
At Abolitionist Sanctuary, wealso focus on the economy with a
specific interest in Blackmotherhood and the
criminalization of survival.
Can you talk to us about thesignificance of black women and
black mothers for the U.S.
(03:52):
economy?
SPEAKER_02 (03:53):
First of all, to clarify by background, I'm
sitting in my New York officeand have a white background with
a red penny.
Certainly, I think what isunique about the participation
of African-American women in theAmerican economy is by both
necessity and opportunity, theyhave over time carved out unique
(04:15):
niches for themselves that havecreated significant wealth for
our community and propelled ourcommunity at times when there
may be or appear to be feweropportunities than should be
available to us.
I think Madame C.J.
Walker is a great example ofthat.
A woman who became the firstAfrican-American millionaire,
male or female, and one of thefirst self-made women
(04:37):
millionaires of any color in theUnited States because she
focused on an area specific tothe African-American community.
That's African-American hair.
So I think that theseopportunities that have emerged
in our community are oftendriven by unique needs that
aren't being addressed by theblack market.
(04:57):
African-American women havefound ways through generations
to capitalize on that and tocommercialize all the
opportunities.
SPEAKER_00 (05:03):
Excellent.
And we're also seeing that Blackwomen are thriving in industries
such as the government, teachingpositions, social services, and
civic positions.
SPEAKER_01 (05:18):
Sure.
SPEAKER_00 (05:18):
We are seeing a backlash that is directly
affecting Black women, thinkingparticularly of African
Americans seeing the highestunemployment rate since 2021,
which is currently at 7.5% as ofAugust, and the 300,000 Black
women who were forced out of theworkplace.
While Black women have lost319,000 jobs from February to
(05:43):
July 2025, white men have gained365,000 jobs during that same
period.
What can you tell us about thereasons for this economic
disparity and how has the Trumpadministration adversely
impacted black women and theblack community?
SPEAKER_02 (06:02):
Let's take a broader context.
The African-American middleclass rose after the Civil
Rights Act and the VotingRackets Act of respectively 64
and 65.
And then again in the early1970s with the passage of
affirmative action, which Billywould point to somewhere between
1972 and 1974, the United Stateseconomy is over 400 years old.
(06:27):
The African-American economy andits relative independence and
participation is only about 60years old.
It began with the Civil RightsAct.
That's the first context.
Second thing to understand isthat for the first 350 years of
African American history,African Americans were largely
(06:49):
unable to participate in theways in which Americans make,
save, and pass along money.
So not allowed to have bankaccounts, now participation in
the stock exchanges, no boardseats, and certainly during
slavery, no inheritance.
And so it's important to put theAfrican American economic
(07:12):
context into the broader contextof American economic history.
The last thing I would say isthat if you think about how the
African-American middle classemerged after the Civil Rights
Act and after affirmativeactions, there were two
industries that drove theimmersion of the
African-American economy.
The first industry was theautomotive industry.
(07:32):
So the largest employer ofAfrican Americans after the
Great Migration into the Midwestand the North, the Stendheast,
Ohio, Michigan, and upstate NewYork, was the automotive
industry.
The second largest employer thatcreated the African American
middle class was the governmentat every level, federal, state,
(07:54):
and local government.
And that is why when thegovernment begins to shrink,
when there is specific targetingof large amounts of folks
employed in the public sector,it has an unusually powerful
effect on the African Americancommunity and African-American
women, because that is theirlargest employment opportunity.
(08:18):
So you'll see what happened afew times in American history.
In the 1980s, when PresidentReagan began to shrink the
federal government, you saw anunusual climb in African
American unemployment inparticular.
In the late 80s and early 90s,with the collapsed large
portions of the automotiveindustry, you also saw a spike
(08:39):
in African Americanunemployment, particularly among
African men, and thensecondarily among African men.
So what we are seeing today isthe fact that because the
administration has sought todramatically shrink the United
States government, that impactsthe African-American economy
dramatically because of themiddle class's source of
(09:03):
employment being largely orinitially in the government
space.
And then secondarily, all ofthese other industries, but
automotive and government havebeen the largest employers.
And so what you're saying is notjust the impact of DEI, it is
actually the broader impact ofgovernment shrinkage.
SPEAKER_00 (09:20):
It seems as though the government is playing both
sides and continually changingand moving the standard.
And what I mean by that is whenwe looked at welfare reform
policies, it actually punishedsingle women, particularly Black
women, for not working.
And now what we see is thegovernment's participation and
(09:42):
essentially forcing Black womenoutside of employment.
And so it seems like it putsBlack women and Black
communities, those who benefitfrom DEI and otherwise, between
a rock and a hard place.
Damn if they do, damn if theydon't.
And so there are multiple waysin which Black communities are
(10:05):
disadvantaged.
And for the sake of abolitionistsanctuary in our organization,
we focus specifically on thesurvival of Black mothers.
So I hear you saying, and Iagree, that part of the problem
is historical disadvantage thatBlack women and Black
communities have experienced,and that has showed up with
(10:26):
unemployment.
I'm curious to know what otherunique challenges are there,
particularly when we look atdebt profiles.
Black women are the mosteducated demographic.
We also see that studentforgiveness has been eliminated
by this administration.
I imagine, at least for my ownprofile, having a terminal
degree, that black women alsocarry substantial debt as being
(10:48):
the most educated.
Black women are also the primarycaregivers in about 80% of our
households.
However, we make only 63 centsto the dollar of white men.
We are poorer than every otherethnic group except for Native
American.
Talk to us about the impactusing this racial, gender, class
lens.
What is the impact for debt forblack women in addition to the
(11:10):
challenges of unemployment?
And how does that also factorinto what you know about the
housing market?
SPEAKER_02 (11:17):
Here's my United States as an enterprise has
rarely, if ever, expressed avested interest in the long-term
economic well-being of African.
So the idea that the UnitedStates government is going to
rescue us from economic peril isabsurd.
(11:39):
At the very beginning, in 1789,when the Constitution is
written, there was only onegroup of people explicitly
carved out in Article I of theConstitution, and that was
enslaved persons.
And so the United Statesgovernment sanctioned and
incorporated into its foundingdocument.
(12:00):
We haven't written anotherconstitution, we incorporated
into our founding document theeconomic subjugation of people
of African descent.
After the Civil War, there wasan attempt, rather briefly, in
reconstruction to build anindependent African-American
economy.
(12:20):
The most famous initiative was40 acres and a mule, which was
General Sherman's idea of as hewas working his way from South
Carolina down through Georgia inthe defeating of the
Confederates to turn over theplantations to slades and 40
acres and mule.
(12:41):
After Lincoln died and AndrewJohnson emerged as president,
the other generals in otherparts of the country objected to
the idea.
That whole idea basically fellapart.
Reconstruction lasted only untilthe re-establishment of Southern
participation in the federalgovernment and in
Reconstruction.
(13:02):
And so the idea that the UnitedStates government is going to
come to the rescue of theAfrican-American economy is a
fool's error.
I believe is more important forAfrican American people to
figure out together how toactivate our own economic
(13:22):
resources.
That is what I feel called todo.
I am not one to point togovernment programs and
dependence or policies becauseit will change every two, four,
eight years.
When DEI emerged, my CFO was aremarkably accomplished
African-American team, one ofthe most famous black women in
(13:45):
the history of Wall Street wasmy CFO at the time.
And she and I discussed how longwould this last.
We said about 18 months, and wewere right almost to the day.
Because she's in a generationbefore me, and she's seen this
cycle before.
I am in my late 40s.
I have seen this cycle before.
And so I think we have to acceptthat idea and go back to the
(14:10):
premise of what do we do forourselves?
That's my answer to DEI, andthat's my answer to government
programs and welfare and all ofthese things, which are helpful
from time to time, but on whichwe cannot depend.
SPEAKER_00 (14:28):
Well said, I completely agree that the U.S.
has only been interested in theexploitation of our labor and
bodies, and the foundingdocuments never factored in
non-European or non-whiteproperty holding bodies.
The Constitution was written forwhite property-holding men.
And anyone outside of thatdidn't benefit from the same
(14:49):
protections.
We see through capitalism,particularly racial capitalism,
that it is designed to benefitand exploit those who are of the
lower classes.
So I agree with you, and I alsoagree with your turn to the
intervention of how to createself-sustaining economies.
I've worked with a village inMalawi, and I'm interested to
(15:11):
see how we can harness thecommunal values that we see
across the African diaspora tobuild economic empowerment so
that we are independent ofgovernment intervention.
And so I want to know what aresome of the ways are you doing
that with Steinbridge and yourwork?
SPEAKER_02 (15:30):
One of my favorite sermons is by Adam Clinton
Powell.
SPEAKER_00 (15:34):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (15:35):
And it's 1968.
He goes through the Bible and hesays, God said Moses shows up at
the Red Sea and he's worriedabout crossing the Red Sea.
He or God have a conversationand God asks him, What's in your
hand?
The same rod that was used whenyou threw it down and it became
(15:57):
a snake.
But when you turn the AnnihilateRiver into blood, stretch out
that same rod and cross the RedSea.
Then he talks about David, andhe says, David shows up to
battle with Goliath, and he hasa slingshot and five smooth
stones.
King Saul puts on all of thisarmor and sins and out.
(16:18):
David says, This doesn't workfor me.
And God tells David, you don'tneed the armor, you don't need
King Saul's sword.
Use what's in your hand.
So Reverend Clayton Powell'spoint was that we are often
(16:38):
looking outside of ourcommunities for the resources
and momentum to economicallymove ourselves further along.
But the reality is that God isasking us what's in your hand.
What do we are charged to do tobe optimize the resources, the
(17:02):
land resources, the economicresources, the human resources,
the relational resources that wehave.
And we are charged to optimizethat to maximum outcome, maximum
family outcome, maximumhealthcare outcome, maximum
educational outcome, and maximumeconomic outcome.
(17:23):
What does that mean for ourbusiness?
It means that we're trying toidentify, I'm in the real estate
space, we're trying to identifywhere there are resources within
our community that own land,that own real estate, and we are
trying to help those landownersactivate that land to
economically productive uses.
There are 105 historically blackcolleges.
(17:46):
Many of them own land in verywell-located parts of the United
States.
Some of them are land grantcolleges that have had that land
since the 1860s.
That land's often underutilized,whereas you have some of the
larger universities, stateuniversities, the Ivy League,
who own and have activated everysingle piece of land around
(18:08):
them.
Well, why aren't ouruniversities doing the same
thing?
So we're working withuniversities.
We've committed$100 million tohistorically black colleges and
universities to help themactivate their underutilized
land.
We're also doing that withchurches.
We're working with severalchurches in the United States
right now, large congregationsand some of the main African
(18:28):
nations to identify land intheir collective religious folk
that sometimes is in the middleof the best growth, economic
growth past in their town.
And we're helping them toactivate that land into
economically productive use ofanother country.
And so I'm building on what Iheard Reverend Powell say, and
(18:50):
that is trying to identifywhat's in our hand and use that
as my slingshot and my stone,and use that as my rod over the
Red Sea and not wait forsomebody to come along and
rescue.
All right, Evan.
SPEAKER_00 (19:05):
Speak more about real estate.
Why is real estate and the landimportant for our community?
SPEAKER_02 (19:11):
Real estate is roughly 20 to 25% of the United
States' economy, real estate andadjacent industries and
activities.
One-third of the net worth ofthe average American household
is in the value of the home thatthey own.
We are living in a post-pensionsociety where most people don't
even have a pension.
They're lucky if they've got asolid 401k.
(19:32):
In that context, real estate isone of the most sustainable ways
to lift an individual and afamily out of poverty.
It is also one of thesustainable ways for
institutions to muster,increase, and be good stewards
of wealth over the long term.
(19:52):
And so it's a key factor inactually helping to respond to
the economic disparity in theAfrican American.
And it is most important, Dr.
Robert, because it's what wehave.
SPEAKER_00 (20:07):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (20:08):
It's one of those things that the African-American
Church is a powerful institutionbecause the African American
Church owns its own land.
SPEAKER_01 (20:16):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (20:17):
There's not a single African-American company traded
on the New York Stock Exchangetoday that has enjoyed the
ownership of African American.
There's one started by anAfrican-American person, someone
who's Jewish, and it he starteda company and he's now owns a
small part of it.
He's a CBO.
But if you look at the New YorkStock Exchange, the NASA, the
American Stock Exchange, therearen't any African-American
(20:39):
habits.
So where is our wealth?
Where are the institutions wherewe can point to collective
wealth?
They're really not true.
It is historically by college,and it is the church.
That's where we have largeamounts of money, large amounts
of cash flow, large amounts ofregular predictable income.
(21:00):
It's in the church and it's inthe HBCU.
And when I say large, I meanmulti-billion dollars, not a few
hundred thousand, not a fewmillion, if you collectivize
those institutions, thoseeconomically impactful
institutions.
And so that's why a church,that's why the HBCU, and that's
why the land, because that'stheir large land.
SPEAKER_00 (21:21):
Talk about what are some of the barriers and what
are some breaks that we'reseeing in the economy,
particularly with the interestrate cuts, but then some of the
historical barriers, such asredlining, you have
environmental challenges.
I'm thinking of the black middleclass community in Altadena,
close to where I live, that 54families in my church lost their
(21:44):
homes to the Eaton Canyonwildfires, which one would argue
is also a racially systemicissue.
What are some of the barriershistorically, environmentally?
And then when you thinkeconomically, we we already
mentioned the challenges Blackwomen in particular face with
poverty, debt, and so forth.
How do those challenges hinderwealth creation or becoming
(22:08):
self-sustaining within the blackcommunity?
SPEAKER_02 (22:10):
Well, that's a good question.
Let's go back to the debt issueand then let's talk about the
real estate issue, HurricaneKatrina.
My family was in somethingcalled the Van War floods from
the 1940s in the PacificNorthwest.
When it rains, it always floodsin the African Americans.
That's important then to talkabout.
So let's talk about debt.
This is America.
(22:30):
Everybody's in debt.
United States government has$37trillion.
Every publicly tradedcorporation issues bonds, and
bonds are basically borrowingfrom individual investors.
Every city issues municipalbonds, and all bonds are
borrowing to do work.
Debt isn't the problem.
(22:52):
The problem is the kind of debtthat we get.
There's something in accountingcalled the matching principle.
The idea is that you're supposedto match your liabilities with
your assets in terms of time.
So you match your long-termliabilities with your long-term
assets and your short-termliabilities with your short-term
assets.
You're not just matching it interms of dollar amounts, but in
(23:16):
terms of duration.
What does that mean?
That means we are taking on alot of long-term debt and we're
not matching it with a long-termasset that will appreciate any
time.
We're taking on credit carddebt, car notes, even education
notes, against which there is noidentifiable increase in asset
(23:39):
in value.
So you have this debt thatbasically ends up personal debt
because it's not secured by, ornot covered by, or not creating
additional wealth for youbecause it's not associated with
an asset that is increasing invalue.
Automotive loans are my favoriteexample.
(23:59):
But I don't have a loan in partbecause it's a depreciating
asset.
You want to be careful not tomatch an increase in liability
because that debt is going to bethere.
And you're going to have toservice that debt with a rapidly
decreasing asset.
Similar to credit cards.
You have to be very careful withthe use of credit cards.
(24:19):
I only have one credit card, andthat's used entirely for my
company's activities.
That is because I want to becareful about taking on a credit
card debt, is a short-termliability that doesn't really
give me any access to moreassets.
So what are the kinds of debtthat give you access to more
(24:40):
assets?
A mortgage.
SPEAKER_00 (24:46):
And land doesn't appreciate.
SPEAKER_02 (24:48):
Land doesn't appreciate, exactly.
If you have a long-term assetagainst something that increases
in value, insurance policies.
If you have a good insurancepolicy, a whole life policy,
that whole life policy willincrease in value.
Borrow against that.
That's an asset.
If you have certain stocks,careful.
If you have stocks or asincreasing value, if you need
(25:11):
money, don't pull it.
Borrow against that.
Borrow against things that havelong-term value.
And do two things.
When you're finished using themoney, either put it back or buy
more things with long-termvalue.
If you borrow against yourhouse, do not borrow against
(25:31):
your home to pay your bills.
That's a recipe for disaster.
Churches do it all the time.
They borrow against new pastorcomes in, he wants to fix the
roof, he takes out a secondmortgage.
Usually not a great idea.
New pastor comes in, he wants todo an outreach program to the
community, takes out a mortgageon the church.
Usually not a good idea becauseit's a short-term liability.
(25:52):
So what you want to focus on isgetting out of consumer debt and
then trying to find assets thathave long-term value.
And then if you have to borrowor choose to borrow, borrow
against those long-term assets.
And then when you're finishedusing that hash, you pay that
account or use that cash to buymore long-term assets.
(26:14):
So buy another business withanother mortgage, or buy more
stocks, or invest more in your401k, but use that borrowed cash
for additional long-term assets.
That is what wealthy people do,working folks, and everyday
folks aren't told to do.
Everyday folks are told stay outof debt.
(26:36):
What you need to be told is tostay out of bad debt, stay out
of consumer debt, and focus onborrowing for things for which
there is long-term valuecreation.
SPEAKER_00 (26:48):
Thank you for that.
I hope our listeners were ableto follow that crash course on
how to use good debt and stayaway from bad debt in order to
optimize wealth creation.
As you know, Tawan, you and Imet while I was working on Wall
Street.
And so with a background inpublic accounting and investment
banking, you are talking mylanguage.
(27:10):
But we also have to bear in mindthat there are systemic
inequities that nullify some ofthe prudence you've mentioned in
terms of managing debt.
There's bad debt that's not justconsumer debt, but it's also the
ways in which we live in thiscapitalist society that seeks to
(27:32):
exploit and extract the labor ofBlack and brown bodies that will
rather invest in the creation ofprisons, for example, than to
allocate funds to socialprograms that would help Black
families and marginalizedcommunities to thrive.
I understand that leverage canbe good, but there's been a debt
(27:52):
by society that has been moredetrimental, more damaging than
personal finance could navigatewhen we're up against systemic
inequities.
But that's not to say I'm nothopeful and that it's not
prudent to follow the insightsthat you shared with us.
I think that's invaluable.
But I want to go back to whatyou mentioned about the HBCUs
(28:14):
and the churches.
I think there's something reallyimportant here that I want to
extract is that you areidentifying the HBCUs and the
churches as primary institutionsfor the black community to amass
power and economic wealth.
If these institutions invest inreal estate as one form of
(28:38):
impact investment, that willtrickle down to the black
community in ways that we wouldbe independent of government
intervention.
SPEAKER_02 (28:48):
I believe that churches and historical black
colleges are two paths to what Icall full economic
participation.
The United States is the mostpowerful economic engine in the
history of mankind.
The African American communityis the wealthiest African
community in the world.
We are the wealthiest AfricanBrazil, Africa, Caribbean.
(29:09):
The African-American is thewealthiest African on the globe.
And so, in fact, we do not wantto sit out the American economy.
We want full participation.
Wait, let me stop in there too.
SPEAKER_00 (29:24):
Do we want participation or do we want to
build something better?
It sounds like you're sayingboth.
SPEAKER_02 (29:30):
No, I'm not.
I'm not saying that we want tobuild something better.
It's because individually, as acommunity, we don't have the
resources to outstrip themammoth that is the American
economy.
SPEAKER_03 (29:40):
Okay.
SPEAKER_02 (29:41):
If you put all the African American churches
together, their annual type andoffering is about$14 billion.
That is still smaller than thesmallest company in Fortune 500.
So even if you put all of theAfrican American churches
together, it doesn't be quality.
Economy as far as revenuecollection is concerned.
(30:04):
So, yes, I believe in thecollectivization, but I also am
realistic in the ability for usto actually set up a fully
independent economy.
What I would like for us to dois to go do what the civil
rights was at was leading ustoward.
And that's full participation,just like all other immigrants
(30:25):
to the American system.
Remember, nobody's from here.
Everybody here, save the NativeAmericans, is from somewhere
else.
And so, inasmuch as everyoneelse whose ancestors are from
the uh far-flung beautifulplaces of the world, we Africans
(30:47):
in America are also from one ofthe far-flung beautiful places
of the world.
And we have participated in thecreation of what is the American
kind.
I knew my great-grandmother.
I knew mygreat-great-grandmother, who was
the 11th of 11 children.
Her parents were born intoslavery in Mississippi, and then
she and her children moved toArkansas where there were
(31:09):
sharecrawlers.
And why would I give up theAmerica that they helped to
build?
Why would I walk away from theeconomic juggernaut that my
ancestors helped to create?
Part of the wealth of Americabelongs to African-American
(31:33):
people because we helped buildit.
So I do not believe that webuild a salary economy.
I believe we begin toparticipate fully in the economy
we helped to create.
I have a very different view.
I'm not anti-American economy.
I actually want African-Americanmen, women, and children to
participate fully in theeconomy.
(31:54):
Work, unpaid work of ourancestors, and the sweat and
tears of our mothers andfathers.
The economy that we helped buildactually belongs to us.
And so I don't believe inwalking away from it.
I believe in fighting for andfiguring out ways to participate
in it fully.
SPEAKER_00 (32:12):
That's very interesting.
And I agree that much of thiscountry's flourishing was built
on the backs of indigenous andblack labor.
We think about what has beenstolen from us in terms of our
bodies and labor in theantebellum south and slavery and
the plantation, whether it'scomic leasing, whether it's
(32:32):
modern-day slavery through massincarceration.
We look at Black Wall Street,right?
You mentioned the Reconstructionera.
There are many ways in whichBlack people have contributed to
the American economy.
I'll just say that I still am abit confused on your argument
that we can be independent andfully participate in the
American economy.
(32:53):
Another approach, I think, wouldbe this argument about
reparations, as well as theabolitionist argument, right?
Let's take our resources andbuild something better where we
are truly independent, right?
Because the master's toolscannot dismantle the master's
house.
And so let's build somethingdifferent.
(33:14):
Speak to that.
SPEAKER_02 (33:16):
Well, I would say that the participation, for
example, let's start with that.
So let's say that you go to a uha large denomination and you
want to build economicallyimpactful development right in
the middle of Atlanta.
(33:39):
Where do you get the money?
In today's economy, the largestAfrican-American bank is only
$800 million in assets.
The largest non-African-Americanbank is$3 trillion.
And if you look at it globally,it's closer to$6 trillion.
SPEAKER_00 (33:58):
So let me answer your question.
How did your great-grandmother,grandmother, mother pull their
resources together to get you toGeorge Washington University and
invest in your upward mobility,right?
I think what we see, thealternative, is this communal
(34:19):
ethic of Ubuntu and mutual aid,whether it is the women's club
movement in the 19th century,whether it's the church fish
fry, whether it's a mutual aidsociety, we have seen black
people pull their resourcestogether, making the argument
that we are all we need.
So when you ask where do we getthe money for that loan, we
(34:39):
build it organically and make itto the billions.
SPEAKER_02 (34:43):
I believe in that 100%, but I'm saying it's not
either whole.
SPEAKER_00 (34:47):
Okay.
SPEAKER_02 (34:48):
I believe in it 100%.
My grandmothers turned over theland in Portland, Oregon,
donated the land that is now theVancouver Atman First Baptist
Church.
And it stood there almost 100years, at least 80, 90 years
ago.
So I believe in that.
SPEAKER_01 (35:03):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (35:03):
We live in a global economy.
It is unwise for us not toaccept that idea.
We live in a global,interconnected economy, and we
want that because we don't justwant the African American
community to be gold.
SPEAKER_01 (35:17):
We want Ghana's community to be gold.
SPEAKER_02 (35:21):
We want Nigeria's economy to be goal.
We want Jamaica's economy to begold because we want them to be
able to participate in theglobal economy, to buy and sell
on the global markets.
We want people to buy thingsthat are made in Ghana.
We want people to buy thingsthat are made in Jamaica so that
Jamaica can increase.
So we actually don't want to sitout the global economy.
(35:42):
President Reagan predicted thebad outcomes of tariffs.
Here we are, with high tariffsthat began to cause a downward
spiral in the economy.
Why?
Because sitting out the globaleconomy, no matter how big you
(36:06):
are or how impactful youreconomy, it actually is a bad
idea.
So we don't want the Americaneconomy to have two high
tariffs, that it sits out theglobal economy.
And we don't want the AfricanAmerican economy to sit out with
the global economy.
We actually want to participatein the economy as it goes, not
just the American economy, butthe global economy.
(36:27):
So I'm not saying either or, I'msaying and.
We absolutely want to bind ourresources together in as much as
we have them and apply them tothe things to which they can be
applied.
But we also want to be open totrade with Japan and France.
And we want the folks in Ohio totrade with the people in
Washington state, because thatis the reality of the global
(36:49):
economy.
I think it is thinking too smalland not recognizing the global
economic realities to accept theidea that something I have on
today, either my thread or abutton, was made somewhere else.
And that's not going to stop.
If we face that reality, then wecan do both what you described
and have the fish fry and thelady society, but we can also
(37:12):
figure out how to access capitaland opportunities globally,
including the United States andaround.
So I'm not disagreeing with you.
SPEAKER_00 (37:20):
I'm just adding to the When I think about the
global economy, I wonder fromyour expertise: do we need
France?
Do we need China?
Africa, with all of its naturalresources and wealth, can there
be this global economy acrossthe African diaspora,
independent of Europeancountries and other markets?
SPEAKER_01 (37:44):
That's a powerful question.
SPEAKER_02 (37:51):
Here's why I don't think that's a great idea.
SPEAKER_01 (37:53):
Okay.
SPEAKER_02 (37:55):
Adam Smith on Wealth of Nations.
Yeah.
It's a basic idea of competitiveand comparative advantage.
Who does what?
Nigeria has oil.
But so does Norway, SaudiArabia, and so does Texas.
There may not be enough oil inNigeria to power the whole of
(38:16):
Africa.
There might not be.
So if there's not, you stillwant Botswana to get away.
So they're gonna need maybe tobuy from Norway.
But on the other hand, Norway iscold.
They don't have large wheatproduction in Norway.
(38:36):
So you want them to buy in Eurosor whatever it is, the corner,
whatever it's there.
You want them to buy Botswanaand wheat.
You want them to send Norwegianmoney to Botswana so that some
farmer in Botswana gets richerthan he ever thought.
Here's why is because I do goback to the idea that ultimately
the earth is the forest.
(38:59):
The earth is the force and thefullness thereof.
The land and they that dwelttherein.
And so, on the one hand, yes, weshould be driven by the
opportunities that need toimpact the growth of
African-American people and theAfrican diaspora.
We should not forget that theearth is the force.
And so the resources of theearth don't just belong to
(39:23):
Europe, and they don't justbelong to Africa.
We are stewards of the resourcesthat God has given us on the
earth, but they all belongeventually to all of us.
That's my view.
And it is a little bit nuancedbecause I am very much focused
on impacting theAfrican-American communities.
(39:44):
But I also see the world asglobal.
I see God's creation from maybea bar context.
SPEAKER_00 (39:52):
Thank you.
I know our time is coming to anend.
So I just want you to invoke thestories of the women in your
life, particularly yourgreat-grandmother, mother, your
lineage.
What has been the power of blackwomen in your life?
And how has their survivalstrategies informed your faith
(40:14):
and the work that you do for theeconomy?
SPEAKER_02 (40:17):
Sure.
I have often said that everycorner you get to the street,
and you have to figure out howto cross the street or turn the
corner.
Every intersection, there hasbeen an African-American
standing there, either to helpme cross the street or to point
me in the right direction.
I can go all the way back to mygreat-great-grandmother, whom I
(40:38):
born in 1896, to her daughter,her sisters, who moved up as
migrant workers from Arkansas,drove across the United States
because there were no hotels forAfrican Americans to stay in
between Arkansas and Oregon.
So they took the cell and wentthrough Texas because going to
some of those other states wasthe Warren Circle West through
(40:59):
Texas to all the way to Parisand Pennsylvania.
Got California and then drovenorth, the IFA core.
They did that in the 1830s, 40s,and 1950s.
Got to Oregon, there were noextended state hotels.
There was no real welcomingopportunity for African
Americans to house temporarilywhile they were doing sealed
(41:23):
work and day work.
My day work was their dignifiedway to say they were housemates.
I didn't realize what dating wasuntil I was a teenager.
When she was saying to me, shewas a housemaid.
SPEAKER_00 (41:38):
She was a domestic.
SPEAKER_02 (41:40):
Domestic.
And with that money, she boughtfive ten houses.
And her sister bought five orten houses.
Her other sister bought a fewhouses.
So between all of them, when therest of the family came from
Arkansas to the PacificNorthwest, they would start in
one of my grandmothers, one ofmy great-aunts' homes, and get
on their feet, get their familyall, their immediate family up
(42:04):
to Oregon, and then they wouldbuy a house.
And so there's a great bookcalled The Ones of Other Sons by
Isabel Wars.
And there's a section in ourchapters that specifically talks
about the migration ofAfrican-American people from
Arkansas to the PacificNorthwest.
When I grew up, I didn't meetanybody whose grandparents were
from the Carolinas or fromVirginia until I went to
(42:25):
college.
Everyone I grew up with, theirgrandparents were the ones.
And these women built thiscommunity by, like you said,
fish fry and the kind of petitebourgeois approach, right?
A little at a time and you moveon.
That's how we did hand-to-handcombat.
Those are the women who impactedmy life and created for me the
(42:46):
context of self-determination.
And then, of course, thecommunity changed.
And you had the 1960s riots, youhad heroin in the 70s, you had
disinvestment in the 80s, youhad gangs in the 90s.
And Colin Morgan, there's agreat study that talks about why
it became a center for gang biasin the 1990 late 80s and 1990s
(43:09):
after California passed thisthree-strike shroud law.
A lot of that ducked to my carpart of the country.
So part of the country that theyhelped build as a refuge haven
for African-American migrantswas suddenly distorted by the
scourge of bad policy and ofeven natural drug crises.
(43:30):
But those women were able toshare with me the clarity of
their convictions.
They told me enough of thestories that I can remember to
help me understand, maybe notall the times, the what, but the
why.
(43:50):
And those two whys were alwaysGod and family.
They were always God and family.
And so even though I canremember some stories I can't
tell without tears in my eyes, Iremember my mother's face when
she taught me how to read Psalm23.
(44:15):
By the way, she had aneighth-grade education, best,
maybe seventh grade.
But when I would open up Psalm23 and read it to her, she would
say, That's not strong enough.
She would say, Start over.
Throw your shoulders, put yourhead up, and start over.
And I would say, The Lord is myshepherd.
She'd say, No, no, no.
She just called me.
She said, no, buddy, that's notright.
(44:36):
If I say the Lord is myshepherd, she said, no, no, no.
Start over.
I would say, Big Mom, what doyou mean?
She said, when you read it,throw your head back and say,
the Lord is my shepherd.
The idea.
And God of the universe.
SPEAKER_01 (44:53):
Life at eight years old.
Breathtaking idea.
So focus, clarity, deepconviction.
That life is not about me as anindividual.
SPEAKER_02 (45:08):
It is about us.
SPEAKER_00 (45:09):
Yes.
SPEAKER_02 (45:11):
The God of the universe is involved in that.
SPEAKER_00 (45:15):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (45:17):
It remains with me.
SPEAKER_00 (45:18):
Yes.
SPEAKER_02 (45:19):
And so to women in their life.
That is my greater grandmother.
That is my grandmother.
That is my mother who ultimatelyhad to raise me by herself.
SPEAKER_01 (45:27):
Yes.
Strength.
SPEAKER_00 (45:34):
I am also a product of a single black mother, and I
am getting chills just hearingabout the survival strategy.
SPEAKER_02 (45:43):
Same clarity.
Same fortitude.
SPEAKER_01 (45:45):
Yes.
SPEAKER_02 (45:46):
That's what gives me who I am today.
That's what gives me the greatconfidence in the calling,
despite disadvantages andchallenges.
SPEAKER_00 (46:04):
We honor them, Tuan.
This is the work we do atAbolitionist Sanctuary.
We lift up the stories ofresilient black women who
society would otherwisedisregard according to negative
stereotypes.
Instead, we reappraise andreclaim their survival
strategies as a source ofsalvation.
It saves our lives, that theywere able to make a way out of
(46:25):
no way.
Thank you for embodying that andsharing your story with us.
Extremely powerful.
I deeply admire how the workthat you do in real estate to
empower the Black community is afull circle moment that pays
tribute to those Black women whotook a little to do a lot,
(46:46):
starting with real estate tobuild their family lineage.
All right, we're gonna end high.
SPEAKER_01 (47:08):
Money more faith.
Always health honor.
SPEAKER_00 (47:19):
Freedom.
Black mothers.
SPEAKER_01 (47:28):
Thank you.
SPEAKER_00 (47:29):
Your favorite food?
Favorite church song.
SPEAKER_02 (47:35):
Order my steps.
SPEAKER_00 (47:37):
Favorite color?
SPEAKER_02 (47:39):
Navy.
SPEAKER_00 (47:40):
Favorite thing to do?
Biggest pet peeve.
SPEAKER_02 (47:45):
People will make noise when they chew.
SPEAKER_00 (47:49):
Greatest fear.
Spines and snakes.
Turn up or Netflix and chill.
SPEAKER_01 (47:57):
Ooh.
How about 50-50?
SPEAKER_00 (48:02):
And finally, abolitionist Sanctuary.
SPEAKER_01 (48:07):
An impactful hundred.
SPEAKER_00 (48:10):
Thank you so much.
Thank you for joining thisconversation on the Abolitionist
Sanctuary podcast.
Please download and share on allplatforms.
I am your host, Reverend Dr.
Nikia Smith Robert, the founderand director of Abolitionist
Sanctuary.
Follow us on YouTube, Instagram,Facebook, and download our
social mobile app.
(48:30):
Also enroll in our courses atabolitionacademy.com.
Don't forget to become a memberand subscribe to our mailing
list atabolitionistsanctuary.org.
As we conclude this episode,remember that abolition is not
only a practice, but it is a wayof life.
And for me, abolition is myreligion.
Let's lead a faith basedabolitionist movement together.
(48:53):
Thank you, Tawan, for joiningus.
We appreciate the time you'vespent on our show.
SPEAKER_02 (48:58):
Thank you.
Thank you, Red.
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