October 3, 2025 • 52 mins
We trace Dr. Jamal Bryant’s journey from family roots and grief to a movement-facing ministry that blends sermon craft, organizing, and economic imagination. We press into DEI rollbacks, leadership succession, and building power that feeds, houses, and employs our people.
• personal roots, parental influence, and grief as teacher
• love, accountability, and prayer as intimacy
• sermon craft for an unscripted, attention-thin culture
• Target Fast strategy and reawakening the Black church
• community organizing beyond Sunday metrics
• economic empowerment, land use, and viable revenue
• DEI rollbacks as financial violence against Black women
• shared agendas for elections and policy lanes
• leadership succession and youth pipelines
• abolitionist building alongside reforms
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_00 (00:05):
Welcome to the Abolitionist Sanctuary Podcast,
where we talk faith, abolition,and Black Motherhood.
I am your host, Reverend Dr.
Nikia Smith Robert, the founderand executive director of
Abolitionist Sanctuary.
We are a national coalitionleading a faith-based
(00:26):
abolitionist movement.
Thank you to our audio andvisual audiences for joining us
on YouTube, Instagram, Facebook,and all streaming platforms.
Let's build abolitionistsanctuaries together with this
critical and candid conversationfor today's episode.
(00:53):
Hello, I am excited to be withyou today.
I am your host, the Reverend Dr.
Nakia Smith Robert, and today Ihave the honor of introducing
our guest, the Reverend JamalHarrison Bryant.
Dr.
Bryant is a visionary civilrights activist, community
organizer, presidential lifetimeachievement award recipient.
(01:17):
He is the two-time GrammyAward-winning artist.
Dr.
Jamal Harrison Bryant combinessound biblical teaching,
business acumen, and politicalinsight to propel the body of
Christ to action and greaterlevels of faith.
Since his youth, Dr.
Bryant has prevailed against theodds, rising from a GED to a
(01:40):
PhD.
Before pastoring, he served asthe National Youth and College
Director of the NAACP for sixyears, where he helped to
mobilize over 70,000 youthworldwide in nonviolent
campaigns.
Dr.
Bryant, a third generationminister, was the founding
pastor of Empowerment Temple AChurch in Baltimore, Maryland,
(02:05):
acclaimed as the fastest growingAME church in the denomination's
200-year history.
With an undeniable gift tobridge generations from the
civil rights movement to theBlack Lives Matter movement, Dr.
Bryant incites change in thefaith community.
His ability to reach acrosssocial, economic, and political
(02:28):
barriers has helped peopleexperience the life-changing
gospel of Jesus Christ andactivate success in their
everyday lives.
His ministry has become anincubator for entrepreneurs,
homeowners, and the like.
Additionally, programs under theguidance have aimed to spread
the gospel, develop strongleaders, empower the
(02:51):
economically disadvantaged, andchallenge social injustices.
In December 2018, Dr.
Bryant was appointed as thesenior pastor of New Birth
Missionary Baptist Church inStone Crest, Georgia.
His leadership efforts havestrengthened the
multi-generational bond amongmembers, cultivated families,
(03:13):
and expand community outreach aswell as the church's cultural
significance.
And something not included inhis bio, but of extreme
significance that I would liketo add is that Dr.
Bryant is the architect of theTarget FAST in response to DEI
rollbacks, which is the largestand most effective boycott that
(03:34):
our country has seen since thecivil rights.
It is indeed an honor to welcomeDr.
Jamal Harrison Bryant.
SPEAKER_02 (03:42):
Thank you so much for having me.
I'm honored to be a part.
SPEAKER_00 (03:46):
Thank you for joining us.
So let's begin with setting theatmosphere, if we will, by
telling us what are yourpronouns and give us a visual of
how you are showing up in thisspace and who are your people.
SPEAKER_02 (04:04):
Yes, I am showing up in the fullness of who I am.
I am the son of a womanisttheologian.
I am the brother of a practicingclinician.
I am the son of a retired bishopand considered the father of
Neopentecostalism in themainline denominational
Methodist Church.
And I am the proud husband of aphenomenal woman.
(04:27):
I am invited to be with you.
SPEAKER_00 (04:29):
Yes, amazing.
And I am privileged to know youin many of those capacities.
And so they say the personal ispolitical.
So let's start with thepersonal.
Who is young Jamal beforebecoming an Episcopal family,
before preaching your firstsermon, before your first
girlfriend, before your firstShimmy.
SPEAKER_02 (04:50):
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (04:52):
Before the degrees in Alcalaise, tell us the
earliest memory of you knowingwho you are.
SPEAKER_02 (04:59):
My earliest memory is my first day of kindergarten
where I wore a three-piece suitwith a bow tie and a briefcase.
I had always seen my dayaddressed, and in my mind, I was
going to work.
And my parents obliged me andlet me go to school for my first
day of kindergarten.
That's my earliest memory.
(05:20):
And I have been that little boyever since.
SPEAKER_00 (05:23):
You remain a fashion icon.
SPEAKER_02 (05:25):
Listen, I am a runway model for grace.
God has consistently put mercyover my vulnerability.
There's no reason that I shouldbe where I am today, but for the
grace of God.
All of the things that you saidis really just the echoes of the
(05:45):
mercy.
And so I'm grateful.
SPEAKER_00 (05:48):
I received that if it wasn't for God's grace.
SPEAKER_02 (05:52):
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (05:53):
So you mentioned Bishop Bryant.
Tell us about your relationshipwith your father because we've
also seen the movie AmericanGangster, where we learned that
Frank Lucas, the Harlem drugdealer.
SPEAKER_01 (06:06):
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (06:07):
My cousin was Bumpy Johnson, who my family rolled
with.
I remember as a little kid goinginto the basement to see white
men count money.
SPEAKER_02 (06:17):
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (06:18):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (06:18):
Bishop Bryant is the rare gift.
Many people meet their heroes.
Very few are raised by him.
And so everything that I aspireto be as a black man, as a
Christian, as a front-facingliberation theologian is
embodied in my dad.
(06:40):
I'm grateful for 81 years oflife.
My dad, as we are recordingthis, is on his way on a
Norwegian cruise.
And so when I grow up, I want tobe like him.
I'm grateful a lot.
That he modeled thequintessential example of what
it means to have integrity,character, and honor.
(07:00):
I tell everybody everything I'vedone well in life, I learned
from him.
Everything I did bad, I learnedon my own.
SPEAKER_00 (07:07):
Okay.
That's fair.
SPEAKER_02 (07:09):
Bishop Frank Lucas on the other side of the family.
That's my mother's.
SPEAKER_00 (07:23):
So tell us about your mom.
What was your relationship likewith your mother?
And perhaps you can share a bitabout the grieving process.
SPEAKER_02 (07:32):
Yeah, I am coming up.
Thank you for asking.
I am coming up on one year of mymother transitioning.
And I think what has brought methrough this grieving process
has been my bride.
My mother was funeralized 30days before my wedding.
(07:58):
I don't know how I would havebeen able to cope and manage
single, but I married anintercessor.
And somebody who ismission-minded and is full
embracing of every dimension ofher womanhood.
So I told her I almost didn'tmarry her because I thought I
was marrying my mother.
(08:21):
And I think the hardest day dayswas my wedding.
I had three hard days.
SPEAKER_01 (09:37):
Yes.
SPEAKER_02 (09:39):
Where she is.
I have peace and knowing that wedid everything that we could
while she was alive.
I don't have any regrets or anydo-over buttons that I need to
press.
SPEAKER_00 (09:50):
Thank you for being vulnerable and sharing.
I lost my mom December 31st,2012.
And wow.
SPEAKER_02 (10:17):
Yes, I didn't value it at the time.
SPEAKER_00 (10:19):
Yes.
SPEAKER_02 (10:19):
My mother be up three, four, five in the morning
travailing, going through.
When my mother would call, I hadto take a deep breath because I
don't know if she'd understandin the holy of holies.
Yeah, I mean, what she's seeingin the spirit realm.
So no, this side of it.
I'm grateful that I got somebodyin the throne room who I know is
whispering my name.
SPEAKER_00 (10:40):
Listen, we grew up poor, single parent.
SPEAKER_02 (10:43):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (10:47):
VCR broke.
And this VCR was the only thingthat kept my brother off the
streets.
SPEAKER_02 (10:51):
Wow.
SPEAKER_00 (10:52):
Watch movies.
That VCR broke.
She prayed that thing right backto life.
But type of it's accessoryprayer.
SPEAKER_02 (10:58):
Yeah, no, it's great.
SPEAKER_00 (10:59):
All dead situations.
But we give God thanks for thewitness of our mothers.
SPEAKER_02 (11:08):
Your mother's got to be proud of you.
And I didn't know her.
But for all of the grace thatyou exude and all of your
confidence, I just want to sayto you that you are the kind of,
and I don't mean it in apejorative way, you're the kind
of girl a mother would be proudof.
SPEAKER_00 (11:26):
Thank you so much.
SPEAKER_02 (11:27):
Great.
SPEAKER_00 (11:28):
Thank you so much.
I really appreciate that.
So it's something about awoman's love.
You talked about your wife, Dr.
Carey.
Yes.
Would love to know more aboutyour relationship, what love has
taught you from women.
What is some relationship adviceyou can give us and what you
have learned about yourself as apartner that could perhaps help
(11:51):
someone else, particularlyanother brother?
SPEAKER_02 (11:54):
Most men don't want to be challenged.
They want to be comforted.
And so what pushed me away frommy wife is my wife held me
accountable.
And an immature man will seethat as oppositional friction.
Every billionaire will tell youthat who you marry is the best
(12:19):
financial decision you'll make.
Because they will either elevateyou or tank you.
You have to figure out who I usean analogy.
A woman for a black man has tobe in the NFL.
She has to be a blocker.
(12:40):
She has to be a cheerleader.
She has to be a fan.
She has to be the medic.
And she has to be thequarterback.
A man is at his optimum bestwhen he is a black woman who
knows the game.
When she knows the game and canhelp you pivot, but he also has
(13:04):
got to know what his role is,got to know what his position
is.
You're only watching orlistening to this podcast if
you're a secure black woman.
There's no way you're gonnalisten to some podcast called
the abolitionists, and you don'tknow who you are.
So this is not Wendy Williams.
This is not that kind of stuff.
I want to say to you, run asfast as you can from an insecure
(13:30):
man.
And insecurity, he can bedegreed and insecure,
accomplished and insecure,wealthy and insecure.
But find a man who understandsthat your success is our
success.
SPEAKER_01 (13:44):
That's right.
SPEAKER_02 (13:45):
That wherever it is that God elevates you, he
elevates us.
SPEAKER_01 (13:49):
Yes.
SPEAKER_02 (13:50):
When you get that, you'll be able to move.
And then lastly, I'll say, mylate mother, Dr.
Cecilia Bryant, somebody's gonnaneed this.
Yes, praying with somebody ismore intimate than sleeping with
somebody.
SPEAKER_01 (14:09):
I can't go with you die.
SPEAKER_02 (14:10):
This is grace for grown-ups, is for somebody to be
able to take both of your handsand pray with you and die, and
food ain't involved.
That's a form of intimacy.
Seriously, that's a form ofintimacy.
Yeah, it really calls intoaccountability how in the world
(14:32):
was I comfortable getting in thebed with them, but not going in
throne with run with them.
SPEAKER_00 (14:36):
Listen, we're gonna talk candidly.
Yes, the tongues is a verysimilar language.
SPEAKER_02 (14:47):
I'm out.
I'm out that you got me.
I didn't know it was this kindof party.
SPEAKER_00 (14:54):
I knew this would go last.
SPEAKER_02 (14:56):
You drove it there.
SPEAKER_00 (14:57):
It's true.
So my husband and I, we've beenmarried for 18 years on October
7th.
And I'm so grateful that I havea secure man.
I wouldn't be where I am if itwasn't for his support.
So that partnership and beingequally yoked is very important.
So thank you for that.
SPEAKER_02 (15:15):
Exceedingly.
SPEAKER_00 (15:16):
So you are the pastor of New Birth Missionary
Baptist Church in Stonecrest,Georgia.
SPEAKER_01 (15:21):
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (15:22):
Prior to that, you founded the Empowerment Temple.
And so you've been pastoring andpreaching for a long time.
I remember in seminary at UnionTheological Seminary, my
colleague and I, Reverend JayWilliams, took a cab uptown to
see you preach at St.
Luke Amy Church, somewherebetween 2006 and 2009.
You are a preacher exemplar.
(15:43):
Tell us your preaching processfrom preparation to delivery.
SPEAKER_02 (15:48):
Okay.
I am a creative.
In this space, I will tell you Iam a spoken word artist.
So the mind frame that it takesto create is I am not reading
(16:09):
commentaries and Scottishtheologians.
I have to find a space ofinspiration and see the portrait
from finger painting the spraypaint.
And so I start with what thelate Charles Edward Booth has
said find the uncommonrevelation in a common text.
And so I am trying to see whathas not been seen, or what has
(16:34):
not been spoken, what has notbeen shared.
And so mine is a more creativeprocess.
Dr.
King wrote his sermons from theclose of the sermon and then
went backwards.
I'm trying to build thattension.
I watch a lot of movies.
And in watching movies, I do iton plot development, on the
development of characters.
(16:55):
And how does that really ekeitself out in that visual
expression of an audibleplatform?
I try to make a movie withwords.
And in making a movie withwords, I am a stickler for
sentence structure of wordusage.
(17:15):
I have, I don't have a PhD, Ihave a D-Min.
I try to make sure in my sermonI touch those with a D-Min and a
GED.
So in my sermon, you are goingto hear Aristotle, you'll hear
Kierkegaard, you'll hearThurman, but you'll also hear
Tupac, Wu Tang, Biggie, becauseit brings all of who it is that
(17:39):
I am.
I try to practice my unwrittenbook is the anthropology of
theology, of knowing what is theculture, what is the embodiment
of where it is that I am tryingto deposit and where it is that
I'm trying to go, and does itreally mesh with that
subculture?
So my process is the carriage tobe disliked.
(18:03):
I'm saying the unpopular thing.
I want to take the bravado ofJames Baldwin.
I want to take theintentionality of Claude McKay.
But I want to take the sacredvulgarity of Zane and bring all
of that together and say, yes, Isaid it, but here's the
(18:26):
justification on why I said it.
When Donald Trump ran forpresident the first time against
Hillary Clinton, the exit pollssaid something very important.
That nobody thought Trump wassmarter than Hillary.
Nobody thought he had moreexperience.
Nobody thought he had greaterdiplomacy.
(18:48):
They thought he was morerelatable.
I'm an 80s baby.
And so I grew up on the CosbyShaw.
I grew up on a different world.
Saturday nights I'm watchingLove Boat and then A Fantasy
Island.
I got to watch the news, andthen after that, it's Saturday
night live at 11:30.
This is, Dr.
Roberts, the very first time intelevision history where the
(19:13):
preponderance of television isunscripted.
But our preaching out ofseminary is scripted for a
generation that feelsunscripted.
I now have evolved in mypreaching that I preach from an
(19:33):
exhaustive outline, but I'm amanuscript preacher.
I'm right out the fullmanuscript.
When I shift it to an Iunderstand that the ear is
different.
SPEAKER_00 (19:44):
Yes.
SPEAKER_02 (19:45):
The attention span now of the average listener is
2830.
Our sermon should be at 26, butI have preparation for 45.
So how do I preach without thelistener cheating on me with
TikTok or having an affair withInstagram?
In that 26 minutes, how am Igrabbing?
(20:07):
So the title has got to makesense.
I'm not going to read a wholelot of scripture.
I'm usually going to read oneverse, even though the composite
of the message is going to befour to five.
I'll only read one because whatnobody wants to deal with is
you're dealing with a generationwho has spiritual longings but
(20:28):
scriptural illiteracy.
You got to figure out how do youdo a mixtape that introduces
them to things that you and Iwill presume people to know.
The average listener on a Sundaymorning doesn't know the
difference between a discipleand an apostle, nor do they know
the difference between beingPentecostal and being apostolic.
(20:48):
And so with that, you are thebest way I can say it, you are a
professor for summer school.
SPEAKER_01 (20:57):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (20:57):
You are the proctor for remedial class.
And so you've got people in theclass who are gifted and
accelerated, and other people,this is my first time here.
SPEAKER_01 (21:06):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (21:07):
I'm here because my sorrow brought me.
SPEAKER_01 (21:09):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (21:10):
So you got to bring all of that to the table and
figure out is it tweetable andis it brunchable to know that
the majority of people who arelistening to me now, different
than when you caught a KF 15years ago, the majority, and
this is painful for me to say,the majority of people who
(21:31):
listen to my sermons don'tlisten to it in a sanctuary.
SPEAKER_00 (21:35):
Right.
SPEAKER_02 (21:36):
They listen on a treadmill.
SPEAKER_00 (21:38):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (21:38):
They listen to it in the bed.
They listen to it on Mondaysthat work.
Okay.
Yeah.
So you gotta shift that wholedynamic of us doing a colonial
pilgrim presentation to an AIage.
And so to that, we have to bemore mindful of that
presentation.
You opened up this podcast onpeople who are listening to it,
(22:00):
not the people who are seeingit.
So the people listening don'thave the benefit of your amazing
strand of pearls.
SPEAKER_01 (22:07):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (22:07):
People who are listening don't have the
conundrum I'm in trying tofigure out what that 22 is on
your lapel.
So seriously, those aredifferent variables that we have
to bring through in terms of ourphysical presentation and our
audible presentation.
There's an amazing woman of Godwho I won't speak her name.
She is amazingly gifted.
(22:27):
She's great.
She's anointed.
I hate her voice.
I want to read her notes.
I want to read her notes.
And we spent so much time onpresentation in terms of the
physical, but we're not dealingwith how much of it is
translated in audible space.
SPEAKER_00 (22:46):
That's good.
So you are not preaching for thechurch, you're preaching for the
culture.
SPEAKER_02 (22:53):
I'm assigned to the culture.
SPEAKER_00 (22:54):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (22:56):
And then let me say one last thing for the preachers
who are listening.
Two things, and I may have tocome back and do a part two to
this show, but two things I wantto say to you.
Nationally, only one hooper inAmerica has a mega church.
Number two, no hooping clipsever go viral.
(23:20):
I'm dropping the mic rightthere.
SPEAKER_00 (23:22):
Do you consider yourself as a hooper?
SPEAKER_02 (23:24):
No.
I hoop, but I am not a hooper.
I only got one key.
I am not musically inclined atall.
SPEAKER_00 (23:31):
For Cosby?
He modulates.
SPEAKER_02 (23:34):
Modulates, but nobody who's a real hooper
considers Cosby a hooper.
Let's not do that now.
Okay.
The only hooper in the classicblack preaching tradition form I
consider a hoop would be E.
Dewey Smith.
SPEAKER_00 (23:49):
Okay.
I mean, he's also a psalmist.
SPEAKER_02 (23:52):
He can get in his throat.
SPEAKER_00 (23:54):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (23:55):
I got a pack of holes right now, get ready for
Sunday.
SPEAKER_00 (23:58):
All right.
So this 22 represents the bestsorority ever to exist.
SPEAKER_02 (24:07):
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (24:08):
And the 22 founders who founded Delta Sigma Theta
Sorority Incorporated.
SPEAKER_02 (24:14):
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (24:15):
And the pearls just, you know, match the illustrious
swag of our organization.
Just quickly, how long does thatprocess take you?
When do you start your prep tofinish?
SPEAKER_02 (24:32):
I'm telling you, I'm a creative, so sometimes it'll
downpour.
SPEAKER_00 (24:36):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (24:36):
And then other times it's gonna fight.
And not lectionary.
I'm allergic to the lectionary.
No, I only did the lectionarywhile I was at Duke.
unknown (24:47):
Okay.
SPEAKER_02 (24:47):
Because they made us do it.
But you know, Anieba said youhad to have a Bible in one hand
and a newspaper in the other.
Bart.
Bart, thank you so much.
I love intelligent black women.
Thank you so much.
And I received a correction.
Thank you.
SPEAKER_00 (25:04):
So I was an MC growing up.
And so much of my sermon prepprocess is listening to the
sound of the sermon as well andthe sentence structure.
It definitely comes out in mypreaching process as well.
So I appreciate that.
Thank you.
SPEAKER_02 (25:17):
Thank you.
SPEAKER_00 (25:18):
So we went through the personal, we went through
the pastoral.
SPEAKER_02 (25:22):
Really?
It's a set of.
SPEAKER_00 (25:24):
I want to now hit the political.
You are an activist.
Tell us about the work that youhave done to lead the Target
fast and where are we now withthis?
SPEAKER_02 (25:35):
Yes.
Some amazing, brilliant sistersat Minneapolis started the
Target board, kind of on recordand gave homage to black women.
They started it.
People like Nina Turner in Ohiowere doing it.
Tamika Mallory, my sister in NewYork.
I carved out a space called theTarget Fast because I was afraid
(25:58):
the Black Church was no longer aBible voice.
This was a call for the Blackchurch to become involved and
engaged, where we have beenseparated for almost 25 years.
And this generation, by andlarge, does not look to the
Black church for propheticproclamation of speaking truth
to power.
(26:19):
I thought that this would be anon-ramp for the church to
reintroduce itself, and it has.
And I'm grateful for that.
This is the large demographic ofblack people who don't go to the
church, who self-identify asatheists, large demographic of
black people who claim to bespiritual but not Christian.
And so this was a tactical moveof how can the church become
(26:43):
involved as a consequence.
I am embarrassed to tell you.
SPEAKER_00 (27:14):
Wow.
SPEAKER_02 (27:15):
The Progressive Baptist Convention.
One.
We've got to take away the WaltDisney imagination that
everybody supported the civilrights movement.
They didn't.
That everybody supported Dr.
King.
They did not.
(27:36):
We've got to move with theremnant of those who are able to
push.
The intention was to get theblack church black and get black
re-engaged.
I'm thankful for nameless andfaceless pastors and
congregations around the countrywho have pushed the barrel up
the hill.
SPEAKER_00 (27:52):
So tell us about the importance of community-based
organizing.
At Abolitionist Sanctuary, Istarted the nonprofit to respond
to the church's inactivitytowards civic engagement and how
can we harness our historicalroots that is grounded in
freedom movements, particularlythe black church that was born
out of the freedom movement andas leaders in abolitionist
(28:15):
movements.
So what is the cause of theinaction of the church?
And what do you see as the hopefor us to become organized and
amass more political power?
SPEAKER_02 (28:28):
The first thing I'll do is a quote from Desmond Tutu,
who said something that hasriveted me as a pastor.
He said at the end of everyyear, the poor people in the
community should vote to see ifthe church should be open in
next year.
And if the poorest people in thecommunity voted, how many of our
churches would remain open?
(28:50):
So that has been my guidinglight.
I think what happened is yourgrandparents would use an
expression, our grandparentswould use an expression to black
people who achieved, whoexcelled, who graduate.
The expression was, you are acredit to the race.
(29:12):
We moved from communitydevelopment to personal
achievement.
I'm debt free.
Not the community is.
(30:00):
To see their mama, but didn'tfeel any real connection.
I remember a time I waspreaching for TBN some years
ago.
I got off the telephone and mydad called me.
I'm in the green room.
He said, Doc, I just watchedyou.
I said, Yeah.
He said, Man, you reallypreached.
I said, Thank you, Bishop.
I called my dad Bishop.
(30:20):
He said, TBN is global, isn'tit?
I said, Yes, sir.
He said, Tell me how you thinkit translated for the people in
Kenya when you said they gottagive a thousand dollar seed to
get blessed.
It shot me in between my eyes.
That I realized I wasproselytizing a colonized
(30:45):
gospel.
unknown (30:45):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (30:46):
And that I really had baptized dissociative
disorder.
That I really wasn't evenconnecting to who I was called
to.
And so I needed to stop lookingout the window and look in the
mirror to figure out what blooddripped from my own hands,
preaching a commercializedgospel that was really not
indigenous to my own environs.
SPEAKER_00 (31:10):
My God.
So much of the church hasreproduced this capitalist value
system that prioritizes theindividual.
SPEAKER_02 (31:21):
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (31:22):
And we have seen how that same value system has
harmed our community, this valuesystem of self-responsibility.
If I could just pull myself upby my own bootstraps, I would
make it.
And we know that not everyonehas access to boots, right?
And so it's not aboutmeritocracy, it's not about
self-responsibility, it's aboutaccess.
(31:44):
It's about access to resources.
And so my dissertation, myresearch in this organization is
doing the work of retraining theblack church.
SPEAKER_02 (31:53):
Awesome.
SPEAKER_00 (31:54):
And I would love for us to partner in ways in which
we could get you with ourabolition academy to teach a
course that we will do virtualto learn from the organizing
work that you've done.
SPEAKER_02 (32:05):
Be honored to do it.
It is sorely and desperatelyneeded because I'm grasping for
straws.
SPEAKER_01 (32:11):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (32:12):
Looking for a needle because we don't have a template
in this space.
Can you imagine in order for thework that I am called to do, I
have to look at a 1957 blueprintof SELC.
I don't have anything from thelast 30 years to glean from.
(32:34):
So no, I'd love to be a part ofit.
Just know transparently thatI'll be drinking as I'm pouring.
unknown (32:40):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (32:41):
Yeah.
So it'll be as much of a benefitfor me as it is to uh those in
whom you want me to pour into.
SPEAKER_00 (32:48):
It's crucial what you said.
I appreciate your transparencyand the evolution of your
ministry and where you are now.
So we're grateful for yourleadership.
And when I think about the workthat you do in the justice
space, a lot of it has to dowith economic empowerment.
You have this innovative idea touse the church as a site to
(33:08):
source cannabis for economicempowerment.
Where are you on that initiativeand what challenges you may have
received?
SPEAKER_02 (33:16):
Yeah, so let me say a couple of things.
That was on a podcast that Isaid, and the context was I am
embarrassed.
New birth, the church that Ipassed, is the largest
landowning black church inAmerica.
I sit on a continuous 365 acres,continuous.
(33:38):
And the only thing I had on mycampus is a sanctuary and a gym.
I come in as pastor and I metwith$35 million worth of debt.
So we're trying to figure outhow we're going to pay off this
debt because Dr.
(33:59):
Roberts four months fromforeclosure.
So what I said in the podcast isyou know, with all of this
greenery, I need to look at thecannabis industry because we've
been victimized by it, but thereare some medicinal properties,
blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
I'm nowhere with it to answeryour question because I was
raising it as a hypotheticalbecause cannabis is not legal in
(34:21):
Georgia.
Yeah, so it's not even anoption.
So I was brokering that at thetime that Stacey Abrams was
running for governor becausethat was one of her platforms.
So it got spun.
I'm gonna be selling weed in theBible bookstore.
So it has gone nowhere becauseour present governor Kemp is not
(34:42):
for the legalization of it.
So it's not even an option forus at this time.
SPEAKER_00 (34:47):
It was controversial.
I did raise it to Amy Bishop andwe had a conversation around it.
I thought it was a great idea.
SPEAKER_02 (34:55):
The views expressed about our hosts.
SPEAKER_00 (34:59):
But you aren't the only person who's moving for
that.
There are other movementslooking to combine the church
with the cannabis industry forthe purpose that you have
stated, is that blackpopulations have been
criminalized based on marijuanause.
And so it is a way to perhapsredeem or repair, restore that
process by having Blackcommunities benefit from the
(35:21):
legalization of it.
So I hear you.
I'm still stuck on the fact thatyou're saying only one
denomination signed up tosupport you on this Target FAS.
We're gonna have to change that.
We're gonna have to change that.
So whoever's listening,whoever's watching this podcast
episode, and you belong to ablack church, speak to your
bishop, your pastor, episcopalsupervisor, whoever it is, and
(35:43):
let's talk about how we cansupport Dr.
Bryant in the Target FAS andshow our solidarity in the Black
church.
I'm thinking also about the300,000 Black women who have
been forced out of theworkplace.
And your work as an activist,your work in economic
empowerment.
How do you feel about thechallenges that Black women face
with this Trump administration?
SPEAKER_02 (36:05):
It's egregious.
Black women are the mosteducated in this country.
SPEAKER_00 (36:10):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (36:10):
For Georgia, where I live, are the number one
homeowners for the state.
And so this is domestic violenceagainst Black women.
Violence has nine differentcategories.
Physical is just one of them.
This is financial violenceagainst black women.
The church is going to have tobe intentional on how we do
(36:33):
incubators to curateentrepreneurship.
We've got to create our own webof employment opportunities that
may be advantageous andstrategic for our sisters, but
this is crisis.
350,000 black women have losttheir jobs since March.
And 364,000 white men havegotten new jobs at there's a
(36:59):
direct correlation between thespurring of black women and the
elevation of white men.
SPEAKER_00 (37:05):
Yeah, and quite a disparity, an economic
disparity.
One could argue that the workthat you're doing with the
target fast to fight for DEI iswork that benefits the Black
community, particularly Blackwomen, right?
Yes.
And so that's really powerful.
When you think about thispresidential election and all
the degenerative policies thatare a part of Trump's executive
(37:29):
orders and legal precedents, alot has been weighing on my
heart in terms of the fractionwithin the movement.
It seemed that there hasn't beena consensus on the strategy to
defeat Trump and to win back ourdemocracy, right?
During the 2024 presidentialelection, there were a plethora
of pressing issues, includingPalestinian genocide.
And we've seen variousresponses.
(37:51):
Some people opted not to vote,some people voted independent,
and others reluctantly votedDemocrat.
But ultimately, Trump won, welost the U.S.
democracy.
I want to know what are yourthoughts on the past
presidential election and theurgency of us to find mutual
ground to move forwardregardless of our disagreements.
SPEAKER_02 (38:12):
Fitly spoken, I think one, just like there's a
project 2025, what is the ask ofthe black community?
We're a few weeks away from theCongressional Black Caucus.
The midterms are a stonethrowaway.
What is our issue?
And I think that we've got toget into a closed door because
(38:33):
we have become so conditioned tobe reactionary that we don't
know how to plan.
And so, what is the plan for usin terms of our throughout three
things?
SNAP benefits a year from now,there'll be no free lunch in
schools.
So I just speak from the laneI'm in.
(38:55):
Are we gonna send all the churchmothers to take over the
cafeteria at the middle school?
Or are we busing all the kids tothe church for them to eat at
lunchtime?
Or are we sending vacation Bibleschool boxes to plant?
We already know that there'll beno snap, which is big, beautiful
bill.
Number two, Dr.
Roberts, in 18 months, we willsee the largest amount of
(39:20):
homeless black senior citizensin America's history.
Because in the conversation ofMedicaid and Medicare, we've not
done the aggressive conversationon seniors being evicted from
senior housing, evicted fromassisted living.
Where is the black church'sposition paper on AI?
(39:44):
Where's the black churchposition paper on data centers
coming into the black community,extracting the water, and
leaving remnants of land?
So those are just three issues.
It's very hard for us to do itbecause our black mainline civil
rights organizations will notpick a lane or pick an issue
(40:05):
because, to our own peril, wereduced civil rights to
aggressive policing.
So we had hashtags every othermonth and didn't deal with no
other issue.
The safeguarding of HBCUs, thegentrification of our
communities, medical ormedicinal apartheid, the housing
(40:26):
crisis, food insecurity.
If everybody got in a room andsaid, okay, you deal with this,
you deal with this, you deal,because the whole model of there
being one leader or oneorganization or one denomination
is archaic and it will not last.
I was lecturing at a college acouple of weeks ago, and I asked
(40:48):
them, they were all doctoralstudents, I asked them, do you
all believe that there is aviable LGBTQAI plus movement in
unison?
They all lifted their hands.
I said, Great.
Let me ask you who is the leaderof LGBTQ AI plus movement?
(41:12):
These are doctoral students.
No answer.
I said, You identify thatthere's a movement but can't
find a leader.
The black community has got toevolve that leadership does not
necessitate a microphone.
It can't just be the one personspeaking at the press
(41:33):
conference.
We've got to figure out how dowe move the needle and not do it
under an old paradigm structure.
But it's got to be so manyvoices.
When they came to arrest Jesus,they didn't know which one he
was because all of them weredressed in the same thing.
And so our leadership modelshave got to shift and they've
got to evolve in order for us togo into this space.
SPEAKER_00 (41:55):
Wow, you said a lot there.
I agree that our focus should bemultidimensional, that there
isn't a single issue.
I think there needs to be astrategy around prioritizing
issues.
Yes.
I don't think our focus onpolicing undermined our
collective power.
(42:16):
I think it was important for thetime because of what we had seen
in the volume of numbers, theimminence and the pervasiveness
of state violence against blackand brown bodies that it was.
SPEAKER_02 (42:30):
I agree.
I just think that the prismshould be larger.
We spent all of our energy, andI was on the front line from
Traffund to Freddie Gray inBaltimore, George Floyd.
I was involved in all of those.
But at the same time that thatwas happening, some other
tributaries needed to be carved.
And we've looked up, and wedon't have anything in the
pipeline.
(42:50):
The other thing that has tohappen that I have to say, yeah,
and I may be chased off of thecliff from saying it, this is
the oldest leadership BlackAmerica has ever had.
I'm 52.
unknown (43:03):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (43:04):
It is embarrassing that I'm considered a young
leader.
unknown (43:11):
Right.
SPEAKER_02 (43:12):
I've outlived Malcolm Martin Marcus at 52.
So it needs to be a whole nothergroup that is coming, but
there's a bottleneck from as oflate.
And you all hear me, we're in aclinical intellectual
conversation.
So I don't want you all to takethis as shade.
Debate just this week on whetherthe representative in DC should
(43:35):
step down or not, or whether anew person should come.
And at 84 years old, they won'tmove aside.
And so we've got to have somereal family meetings on black
privilege and leadership.
But because you're in it, don'tmean you should die in it.
SPEAKER_01 (43:51):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (43:52):
Mexico just elected their new Supreme Court.
And here's what's amazing andnovel in Mexico, you can only be
on the Supreme Court for 12years and you can't run again.
That's it.
I think we need to reallyre-evaluate what leadership
looks like in civic space.
(44:13):
And less I banish myself toGilligan's Island, what it looks
like in spiritual cleric space.
SPEAKER_00 (44:20):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (44:21):
On how do we change that guard and how do we pivot?
SPEAKER_00 (44:24):
And it's an important call to the black
church, particularly torevitalize our youth ministry so
that we are preparing our youthto lead these social movements.
SPEAKER_02 (44:33):
And the youth ministry shouldn't be 45.
SPEAKER_00 (44:35):
Right.
Agreed.
But there is another side towhat you're saying.
I think what we're talking is areformist conversation, right?
How can we fix the system?
There's also the revolutionaryside or the abolitionist side.
How do we dismantle this systemand build something better in
its place?
And as a creative, I encourageus to also think about how we
(44:57):
can create something better.
There is in Georgia, in fact, Ithink it's called Freedom
Georgia.
A group of 70 families cametogether.
SPEAKER_02 (45:06):
Yes, and bought 5,000 acres.
SPEAKER_00 (45:08):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (45:09):
So I think that we've got to see it differently.
And famous line, the revolutionwill not be televised, is that
being an abolitionist does notalways find itself synonymous
with a picket sign and a racefist.
What they are doing isabolitionist work, is freedom
(45:31):
fighting work.
We have to reimagine whatleadership looks like and what
the fight looks like.
It is not good enough for us tojust boycott target if we're not
advancing blackentrepreneurship.
So there's several differentways that we've got to do it,
but I think they're just spoton.
SPEAKER_00 (45:49):
Thank you so much.
As we conclude this episode,let's end on some lighter notes.
Tell us what you like to do forfun and relaxation and why is
levity important to you.
We see all the viral reels andcontent between you and your
wife, and you guys love to pickon each other.
So tell us what is theimportance of that type of
levity.
SPEAKER_02 (46:10):
You have got to find a way to live.
SPEAKER_01 (46:15):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (46:15):
Of going to the movies, traveling, going out to
eat.
unknown (46:19):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (46:20):
Going with my wife shopping.
I don't like to do it, butthat's what we do.
So yeah, I mean, we're going toflea markets and thrifting,
watch a whole season of Netflixin four days.
I think finding self to notbecome a slave to your phone,
not becoming a slave to socialmedia, not being a slave to text
(46:41):
message, but Shakespeare tothine own self be true.
SPEAKER_01 (46:44):
Yes.
SPEAKER_02 (46:45):
Who is it that makes me who it is that I am?
What makes me tick when I don'thave to perform?
SPEAKER_00 (46:50):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (46:51):
And so finding that can show up in many different
ways.
SPEAKER_00 (46:54):
What's next for you, Dr.
Bryant?
SPEAKER_02 (46:57):
I am going to be at the Abolition Freedom Academy.
I think that's the AbolitionAcademy.
Abolition Academy.
Yeah, I got to sit down andfinish a book that is long past
overdue.
And what's next for me isfiguring out who I can support
in these midterm elections.
This election is going to be socritical, so vital, so important
(47:19):
that we're really going to haveto dig in.
I got a whole lot of work to do.
SPEAKER_00 (47:23):
Yes, likewise.
Include us as co-conspirators inthat work.
Call on that.
SPEAKER_02 (47:27):
I love it.
I'm using that.
Thank you.
SPEAKER_00 (47:29):
So as our wrap it round and our closing, I'm going
to mention some sentences andwords, and you just tell us the
first thing that comes to mind.
You ready?
SPEAKER_02 (47:37):
I'm ready.
SPEAKER_00 (47:38):
A hip hop song on your playlist that's on repeat.
SPEAKER_02 (47:42):
Started at the bottom.
Now we're here.
SPEAKER_00 (47:44):
Hey.
Name three living people youwant in the room to change the
world.
SPEAKER_02 (47:50):
President of Bikina Faso.
President of Nigeria.
And Jasmine Crockett.
SPEAKER_00 (47:59):
My soror.
Yes.
Favorite food?
SPEAKER_02 (48:03):
Soul food.
I can eat fried chicken, yams,and greens seven days a week.
It drives my wife crazy.
I'm easy.
SPEAKER_00 (48:10):
Next time you come to LA, we'll have to host you
because I could cook.
SPEAKER_02 (48:14):
Oh, I'm coming.
Don't tell me we're the wholetime.
I'm coming.
SPEAKER_00 (48:17):
Most enjoyed activity.
SPEAKER_02 (48:20):
Spending time with my wife.
SPEAKER_00 (48:22):
Guilty pleasure.
SPEAKER_02 (48:25):
Insomnia cookies.
SPEAKER_00 (48:28):
Pet peeves.
SPEAKER_02 (48:32):
Black preachers who support a white evangelical
agenda.
SPEAKER_00 (48:39):
Your childhood nickname.
SPEAKER_02 (48:42):
Jay.
SPEAKER_00 (48:43):
Baltimore or Atlanta?
SPEAKER_02 (48:46):
Atlanta.
SPEAKER_00 (48:47):
Biggie or Pac.
SPEAKER_02 (48:51):
Let me say this.
SPEAKER_00 (48:53):
One word, Doc.
SPEAKER_02 (48:54):
I'ma answer it, but I gotta give you context.
SPEAKER_00 (48:56):
Okay.
SPEAKER_02 (48:57):
Because they don't give me my flowers right.
They don't give me my flowersright.
Okay.
Did you know?
Because you're a hip hop head,you're a former MC.
SPEAKER_00 (49:06):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (49:06):
Did you know I preached a memorial service for
both of them?
SPEAKER_00 (49:09):
I did not know that.
SPEAKER_02 (49:11):
You didn't know it.
SPEAKER_00 (49:13):
Wow.
SPEAKER_02 (49:14):
At that time I was National Youth Director, the
NAACP, and Russell Simmons wastrying to build the East Coast
West Coast Peace Summit.
So that we stopped divine.
So all of us were in the roomwith all of the rappers and all
of that.
And I was the only preacher ofthe group that emerged.
Lyrically wise, I play moreoften Biggie.
(49:36):
Philosophically, I'm with Tupac.
But as a lyricist, I'm withBiggie all day long.
SPEAKER_00 (49:41):
I love it.
Favorite preacher.
SPEAKER_02 (49:44):
Dead or alive.
SPEAKER_00 (49:46):
One dead, one alive.
SPEAKER_02 (49:49):
I'm gonna throw you off.
My favorite dead preacher.
Let me say my preaching preacherof all preaching is Martin
Luther King Jr.
But my favorite dead preacher isCaesar Clark.
SPEAKER_00 (50:02):
Okay.
SPEAKER_02 (50:03):
My favorite living preacher is John Bryan.
SPEAKER_00 (50:06):
Oh, I love that.
I love that.
Fashion.
SPEAKER_02 (50:10):
Call them Renaissance.
SPEAKER_00 (50:11):
That's right.
Morehouse.
SPEAKER_02 (50:14):
Best college ever.
SPEAKER_00 (50:16):
A and me.
SPEAKER_02 (50:21):
I have nothing but good things.
Let me say, I gotta answer this.
There's one answer.
I gotta say, I didn't value theAME church, being dead serious.
I didn't value the AME churchuntil I left it.
And I'm third generation A.
I know you know that beforeyou're listening, third
generation AME.
And I couldn't find adenomination or fellowship or
network that does morediasporically, does more for
(50:45):
higher education, does more formissions than the AME church.
And so I I appreciate the antfor.
SPEAKER_00 (50:52):
All right, New Birth.
SPEAKER_02 (50:54):
New birth lives up to its name.
Kappa is the prettiest men thatyou've ever seen in your life.
What you gonna do?
What you gonna do?
SPEAKER_00 (51:07):
Dr.
Carey.
SPEAKER_02 (51:09):
Prettiest woman, the most brilliant, beautiful woman
I've ever met in my life.
The first woman I ever met thatI didn't think I deserved.
SPEAKER_00 (51:20):
We like her.
She's a keeper.
SPEAKER_02 (51:22):
I agree.
I tell her if you leave me, I'mgoing with her.
SPEAKER_00 (51:27):
And finally, abolitionist Sanctuary.
SPEAKER_02 (51:31):
It is a safe space for critical thinkers.
SPEAKER_00 (51:36):
Thank you for joining this conversation, Dr.
Brian.
It was a joy to have you.
This is the AbolitionistSanctuary podcast.
Please share this episode anddownload on all platforms.
Follow us on YouTube, Facebook,Instagram, and download the
Abolitionist Sanctuary Mobileapp to connect to a faith-based
abolitionist movement.
At abolitionistsctuary.com, youcan enroll in courses and become
(51:59):
certified in abolition at socialchange.
Visit abolitionistsanctuary.orgto give, become a member, and
subscribe to our mailing list.
As we conclude this episode,remember abolition is not only a
practice, but it is a way oflife.
And for me, abolition is myreligion.
Let's leave, repair, restore,and rebuild a more just and
(52:19):
equitable society together.
Thank you, Dr.
Bryan.
SPEAKER_02 (52:22):
Thank you.
I'm going to download the app.
I'm going to get it right now.
Thank you for having me.
Welcome to the Abolitionist Sanctuary Podcast,
where we talk faith, abolition,and Black Motherhood.
I am your host, Reverend Dr.
Nikia Smith Robert, the founderand executive director of
Abolitionist Sanctuary.
We are a national coalitionleading a faith-based
(00:26):
abolitionist movement.
Thank you to our audio andvisual audiences for joining us
on YouTube, Instagram, Facebook,and all streaming platforms.
Let's build abolitionistsanctuaries together with this
critical and candid conversationfor today's episode.
(00:53):
Hello, I am excited to be withyou today.
I am your host, the Reverend Dr.
Nakia Smith Robert, and today Ihave the honor of introducing
our guest, the Reverend JamalHarrison Bryant.
Dr.
Bryant is a visionary civilrights activist, community
organizer, presidential lifetimeachievement award recipient.
(01:17):
He is the two-time GrammyAward-winning artist.
Dr.
Jamal Harrison Bryant combinessound biblical teaching,
business acumen, and politicalinsight to propel the body of
Christ to action and greaterlevels of faith.
Since his youth, Dr.
Bryant has prevailed against theodds, rising from a GED to a
(01:40):
PhD.
Before pastoring, he served asthe National Youth and College
Director of the NAACP for sixyears, where he helped to
mobilize over 70,000 youthworldwide in nonviolent
campaigns.
Dr.
Bryant, a third generationminister, was the founding
pastor of Empowerment Temple AChurch in Baltimore, Maryland,
(02:05):
acclaimed as the fastest growingAME church in the denomination's
200-year history.
With an undeniable gift tobridge generations from the
civil rights movement to theBlack Lives Matter movement, Dr.
Bryant incites change in thefaith community.
His ability to reach acrosssocial, economic, and political
(02:28):
barriers has helped peopleexperience the life-changing
gospel of Jesus Christ andactivate success in their
everyday lives.
His ministry has become anincubator for entrepreneurs,
homeowners, and the like.
Additionally, programs under theguidance have aimed to spread
the gospel, develop strongleaders, empower the
(02:51):
economically disadvantaged, andchallenge social injustices.
In December 2018, Dr.
Bryant was appointed as thesenior pastor of New Birth
Missionary Baptist Church inStone Crest, Georgia.
His leadership efforts havestrengthened the
multi-generational bond amongmembers, cultivated families,
(03:13):
and expand community outreach aswell as the church's cultural
significance.
And something not included inhis bio, but of extreme
significance that I would liketo add is that Dr.
Bryant is the architect of theTarget FAST in response to DEI
rollbacks, which is the largestand most effective boycott that
(03:34):
our country has seen since thecivil rights.
It is indeed an honor to welcomeDr.
Jamal Harrison Bryant.
SPEAKER_02 (03:42):
Thank you so much for having me.
I'm honored to be a part.
SPEAKER_00 (03:46):
Thank you for joining us.
So let's begin with setting theatmosphere, if we will, by
telling us what are yourpronouns and give us a visual of
how you are showing up in thisspace and who are your people.
SPEAKER_02 (04:04):
Yes, I am showing up in the fullness of who I am.
I am the son of a womanisttheologian.
I am the brother of a practicingclinician.
I am the son of a retired bishopand considered the father of
Neopentecostalism in themainline denominational
Methodist Church.
And I am the proud husband of aphenomenal woman.
(04:27):
I am invited to be with you.
SPEAKER_00 (04:29):
Yes, amazing.
And I am privileged to know youin many of those capacities.
And so they say the personal ispolitical.
So let's start with thepersonal.
Who is young Jamal beforebecoming an Episcopal family,
before preaching your firstsermon, before your first
girlfriend, before your firstShimmy.
SPEAKER_02 (04:50):
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (04:52):
Before the degrees in Alcalaise, tell us the
earliest memory of you knowingwho you are.
SPEAKER_02 (04:59):
My earliest memory is my first day of kindergarten
where I wore a three-piece suitwith a bow tie and a briefcase.
I had always seen my dayaddressed, and in my mind, I was
going to work.
And my parents obliged me andlet me go to school for my first
day of kindergarten.
That's my earliest memory.
(05:20):
And I have been that little boyever since.
SPEAKER_00 (05:23):
You remain a fashion icon.
SPEAKER_02 (05:25):
Listen, I am a runway model for grace.
God has consistently put mercyover my vulnerability.
There's no reason that I shouldbe where I am today, but for the
grace of God.
All of the things that you saidis really just the echoes of the
(05:45):
mercy.
And so I'm grateful.
SPEAKER_00 (05:48):
I received that if it wasn't for God's grace.
SPEAKER_02 (05:52):
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (05:53):
So you mentioned Bishop Bryant.
Tell us about your relationshipwith your father because we've
also seen the movie AmericanGangster, where we learned that
Frank Lucas, the Harlem drugdealer.
SPEAKER_01 (06:06):
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (06:07):
My cousin was Bumpy Johnson, who my family rolled
with.
I remember as a little kid goinginto the basement to see white
men count money.
SPEAKER_02 (06:17):
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (06:18):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (06:18):
Bishop Bryant is the rare gift.
Many people meet their heroes.
Very few are raised by him.
And so everything that I aspireto be as a black man, as a
Christian, as a front-facingliberation theologian is
embodied in my dad.
(06:40):
I'm grateful for 81 years oflife.
My dad, as we are recordingthis, is on his way on a
Norwegian cruise.
And so when I grow up, I want tobe like him.
I'm grateful a lot.
That he modeled thequintessential example of what
it means to have integrity,character, and honor.
(07:00):
I tell everybody everything I'vedone well in life, I learned
from him.
Everything I did bad, I learnedon my own.
SPEAKER_00 (07:07):
Okay.
That's fair.
SPEAKER_02 (07:09):
Bishop Frank Lucas on the other side of the family.
That's my mother's.
SPEAKER_00 (07:23):
So tell us about your mom.
What was your relationship likewith your mother?
And perhaps you can share a bitabout the grieving process.
SPEAKER_02 (07:32):
Yeah, I am coming up.
Thank you for asking.
I am coming up on one year of mymother transitioning.
And I think what has brought methrough this grieving process
has been my bride.
My mother was funeralized 30days before my wedding.
(07:58):
I don't know how I would havebeen able to cope and manage
single, but I married anintercessor.
And somebody who ismission-minded and is full
embracing of every dimension ofher womanhood.
So I told her I almost didn'tmarry her because I thought I
was marrying my mother.
(08:21):
And I think the hardest day dayswas my wedding.
I had three hard days.
SPEAKER_01 (09:37):
Yes.
SPEAKER_02 (09:39):
Where she is.
I have peace and knowing that wedid everything that we could
while she was alive.
I don't have any regrets or anydo-over buttons that I need to
press.
SPEAKER_00 (09:50):
Thank you for being vulnerable and sharing.
I lost my mom December 31st,2012.
And wow.
SPEAKER_02 (10:17):
Yes, I didn't value it at the time.
SPEAKER_00 (10:19):
Yes.
SPEAKER_02 (10:19):
My mother be up three, four, five in the morning
travailing, going through.
When my mother would call, I hadto take a deep breath because I
don't know if she'd understandin the holy of holies.
Yeah, I mean, what she's seeingin the spirit realm.
So no, this side of it.
I'm grateful that I got somebodyin the throne room who I know is
whispering my name.
SPEAKER_00 (10:40):
Listen, we grew up poor, single parent.
SPEAKER_02 (10:43):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (10:47):
VCR broke.
And this VCR was the only thingthat kept my brother off the
streets.
SPEAKER_02 (10:51):
Wow.
SPEAKER_00 (10:52):
Watch movies.
That VCR broke.
She prayed that thing right backto life.
But type of it's accessoryprayer.
SPEAKER_02 (10:58):
Yeah, no, it's great.
SPEAKER_00 (10:59):
All dead situations.
But we give God thanks for thewitness of our mothers.
SPEAKER_02 (11:08):
Your mother's got to be proud of you.
And I didn't know her.
But for all of the grace thatyou exude and all of your
confidence, I just want to sayto you that you are the kind of,
and I don't mean it in apejorative way, you're the kind
of girl a mother would be proudof.
SPEAKER_00 (11:26):
Thank you so much.
SPEAKER_02 (11:27):
Great.
SPEAKER_00 (11:28):
Thank you so much.
I really appreciate that.
So it's something about awoman's love.
You talked about your wife, Dr.
Carey.
Yes.
Would love to know more aboutyour relationship, what love has
taught you from women.
What is some relationship adviceyou can give us and what you
have learned about yourself as apartner that could perhaps help
(11:51):
someone else, particularlyanother brother?
SPEAKER_02 (11:54):
Most men don't want to be challenged.
They want to be comforted.
And so what pushed me away frommy wife is my wife held me
accountable.
And an immature man will seethat as oppositional friction.
Every billionaire will tell youthat who you marry is the best
(12:19):
financial decision you'll make.
Because they will either elevateyou or tank you.
You have to figure out who I usean analogy.
A woman for a black man has tobe in the NFL.
She has to be a blocker.
(12:40):
She has to be a cheerleader.
She has to be a fan.
She has to be the medic.
And she has to be thequarterback.
A man is at his optimum bestwhen he is a black woman who
knows the game.
When she knows the game and canhelp you pivot, but he also has
(13:04):
got to know what his role is,got to know what his position
is.
You're only watching orlistening to this podcast if
you're a secure black woman.
There's no way you're gonnalisten to some podcast called
the abolitionists, and you don'tknow who you are.
So this is not Wendy Williams.
This is not that kind of stuff.
I want to say to you, run asfast as you can from an insecure
(13:30):
man.
And insecurity, he can bedegreed and insecure,
accomplished and insecure,wealthy and insecure.
But find a man who understandsthat your success is our
success.
SPEAKER_01 (13:44):
That's right.
SPEAKER_02 (13:45):
That wherever it is that God elevates you, he
elevates us.
SPEAKER_01 (13:49):
Yes.
SPEAKER_02 (13:50):
When you get that, you'll be able to move.
And then lastly, I'll say, mylate mother, Dr.
Cecilia Bryant, somebody's gonnaneed this.
Yes, praying with somebody ismore intimate than sleeping with
somebody.
SPEAKER_01 (14:09):
I can't go with you die.
SPEAKER_02 (14:10):
This is grace for grown-ups, is for somebody to be
able to take both of your handsand pray with you and die, and
food ain't involved.
That's a form of intimacy.
Seriously, that's a form ofintimacy.
Yeah, it really calls intoaccountability how in the world
(14:32):
was I comfortable getting in thebed with them, but not going in
throne with run with them.
SPEAKER_00 (14:36):
Listen, we're gonna talk candidly.
Yes, the tongues is a verysimilar language.
SPEAKER_02 (14:47):
I'm out.
I'm out that you got me.
I didn't know it was this kindof party.
SPEAKER_00 (14:54):
I knew this would go last.
SPEAKER_02 (14:56):
You drove it there.
SPEAKER_00 (14:57):
It's true.
So my husband and I, we've beenmarried for 18 years on October
7th.
And I'm so grateful that I havea secure man.
I wouldn't be where I am if itwasn't for his support.
So that partnership and beingequally yoked is very important.
So thank you for that.
SPEAKER_02 (15:15):
Exceedingly.
SPEAKER_00 (15:16):
So you are the pastor of New Birth Missionary
Baptist Church in Stonecrest,Georgia.
SPEAKER_01 (15:21):
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (15:22):
Prior to that, you founded the Empowerment Temple.
And so you've been pastoring andpreaching for a long time.
I remember in seminary at UnionTheological Seminary, my
colleague and I, Reverend JayWilliams, took a cab uptown to
see you preach at St.
Luke Amy Church, somewherebetween 2006 and 2009.
You are a preacher exemplar.
(15:43):
Tell us your preaching processfrom preparation to delivery.
SPEAKER_02 (15:48):
Okay.
I am a creative.
In this space, I will tell you Iam a spoken word artist.
So the mind frame that it takesto create is I am not reading
(16:09):
commentaries and Scottishtheologians.
I have to find a space ofinspiration and see the portrait
from finger painting the spraypaint.
And so I start with what thelate Charles Edward Booth has
said find the uncommonrevelation in a common text.
And so I am trying to see whathas not been seen, or what has
(16:34):
not been spoken, what has notbeen shared.
And so mine is a more creativeprocess.
Dr.
King wrote his sermons from theclose of the sermon and then
went backwards.
I'm trying to build thattension.
I watch a lot of movies.
And in watching movies, I do iton plot development, on the
development of characters.
(16:55):
And how does that really ekeitself out in that visual
expression of an audibleplatform?
I try to make a movie withwords.
And in making a movie withwords, I am a stickler for
sentence structure of wordusage.
(17:15):
I have, I don't have a PhD, Ihave a D-Min.
I try to make sure in my sermonI touch those with a D-Min and a
GED.
So in my sermon, you are goingto hear Aristotle, you'll hear
Kierkegaard, you'll hearThurman, but you'll also hear
Tupac, Wu Tang, Biggie, becauseit brings all of who it is that
(17:39):
I am.
I try to practice my unwrittenbook is the anthropology of
theology, of knowing what is theculture, what is the embodiment
of where it is that I am tryingto deposit and where it is that
I'm trying to go, and does itreally mesh with that
subculture?
So my process is the carriage tobe disliked.
(18:03):
I'm saying the unpopular thing.
I want to take the bravado ofJames Baldwin.
I want to take theintentionality of Claude McKay.
But I want to take the sacredvulgarity of Zane and bring all
of that together and say, yes, Isaid it, but here's the
(18:26):
justification on why I said it.
When Donald Trump ran forpresident the first time against
Hillary Clinton, the exit pollssaid something very important.
That nobody thought Trump wassmarter than Hillary.
Nobody thought he had moreexperience.
Nobody thought he had greaterdiplomacy.
(18:48):
They thought he was morerelatable.
I'm an 80s baby.
And so I grew up on the CosbyShaw.
I grew up on a different world.
Saturday nights I'm watchingLove Boat and then A Fantasy
Island.
I got to watch the news, andthen after that, it's Saturday
night live at 11:30.
This is, Dr.
Roberts, the very first time intelevision history where the
(19:13):
preponderance of television isunscripted.
But our preaching out ofseminary is scripted for a
generation that feelsunscripted.
I now have evolved in mypreaching that I preach from an
(19:33):
exhaustive outline, but I'm amanuscript preacher.
I'm right out the fullmanuscript.
When I shift it to an Iunderstand that the ear is
different.
SPEAKER_00 (19:44):
Yes.
SPEAKER_02 (19:45):
The attention span now of the average listener is
2830.
Our sermon should be at 26, butI have preparation for 45.
So how do I preach without thelistener cheating on me with
TikTok or having an affair withInstagram?
In that 26 minutes, how am Igrabbing?
(20:07):
So the title has got to makesense.
I'm not going to read a wholelot of scripture.
I'm usually going to read oneverse, even though the composite
of the message is going to befour to five.
I'll only read one because whatnobody wants to deal with is
you're dealing with a generationwho has spiritual longings but
(20:28):
scriptural illiteracy.
You got to figure out how do youdo a mixtape that introduces
them to things that you and Iwill presume people to know.
The average listener on a Sundaymorning doesn't know the
difference between a discipleand an apostle, nor do they know
the difference between beingPentecostal and being apostolic.
(20:48):
And so with that, you are thebest way I can say it, you are a
professor for summer school.
SPEAKER_01 (20:57):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (20:57):
You are the proctor for remedial class.
And so you've got people in theclass who are gifted and
accelerated, and other people,this is my first time here.
SPEAKER_01 (21:06):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (21:07):
I'm here because my sorrow brought me.
SPEAKER_01 (21:09):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (21:10):
So you got to bring all of that to the table and
figure out is it tweetable andis it brunchable to know that
the majority of people who arelistening to me now, different
than when you caught a KF 15years ago, the majority, and
this is painful for me to say,the majority of people who
(21:31):
listen to my sermons don'tlisten to it in a sanctuary.
SPEAKER_00 (21:35):
Right.
SPEAKER_02 (21:36):
They listen on a treadmill.
SPEAKER_00 (21:38):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (21:38):
They listen to it in the bed.
They listen to it on Mondaysthat work.
Okay.
Yeah.
So you gotta shift that wholedynamic of us doing a colonial
pilgrim presentation to an AIage.
And so to that, we have to bemore mindful of that
presentation.
You opened up this podcast onpeople who are listening to it,
(22:00):
not the people who are seeingit.
So the people listening don'thave the benefit of your amazing
strand of pearls.
SPEAKER_01 (22:07):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (22:07):
People who are listening don't have the
conundrum I'm in trying tofigure out what that 22 is on
your lapel.
So seriously, those aredifferent variables that we have
to bring through in terms of ourphysical presentation and our
audible presentation.
There's an amazing woman of Godwho I won't speak her name.
She is amazingly gifted.
(22:27):
She's great.
She's anointed.
I hate her voice.
I want to read her notes.
I want to read her notes.
And we spent so much time onpresentation in terms of the
physical, but we're not dealingwith how much of it is
translated in audible space.
SPEAKER_00 (22:46):
That's good.
So you are not preaching for thechurch, you're preaching for the
culture.
SPEAKER_02 (22:53):
I'm assigned to the culture.
SPEAKER_00 (22:54):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (22:56):
And then let me say one last thing for the preachers
who are listening.
Two things, and I may have tocome back and do a part two to
this show, but two things I wantto say to you.
Nationally, only one hooper inAmerica has a mega church.
Number two, no hooping clipsever go viral.
(23:20):
I'm dropping the mic rightthere.
SPEAKER_00 (23:22):
Do you consider yourself as a hooper?
SPEAKER_02 (23:24):
No.
I hoop, but I am not a hooper.
I only got one key.
I am not musically inclined atall.
SPEAKER_00 (23:31):
For Cosby?
He modulates.
SPEAKER_02 (23:34):
Modulates, but nobody who's a real hooper
considers Cosby a hooper.
Let's not do that now.
Okay.
The only hooper in the classicblack preaching tradition form I
consider a hoop would be E.
Dewey Smith.
SPEAKER_00 (23:49):
Okay.
I mean, he's also a psalmist.
SPEAKER_02 (23:52):
He can get in his throat.
SPEAKER_00 (23:54):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (23:55):
I got a pack of holes right now, get ready for
Sunday.
SPEAKER_00 (23:58):
All right.
So this 22 represents the bestsorority ever to exist.
SPEAKER_02 (24:07):
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (24:08):
And the 22 founders who founded Delta Sigma Theta
Sorority Incorporated.
SPEAKER_02 (24:14):
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (24:15):
And the pearls just, you know, match the illustrious
swag of our organization.
Just quickly, how long does thatprocess take you?
When do you start your prep tofinish?
SPEAKER_02 (24:32):
I'm telling you, I'm a creative, so sometimes it'll
downpour.
SPEAKER_00 (24:36):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (24:36):
And then other times it's gonna fight.
And not lectionary.
I'm allergic to the lectionary.
No, I only did the lectionarywhile I was at Duke.
unknown (24:47):
Okay.
SPEAKER_02 (24:47):
Because they made us do it.
But you know, Anieba said youhad to have a Bible in one hand
and a newspaper in the other.
Bart.
Bart, thank you so much.
I love intelligent black women.
Thank you so much.
And I received a correction.
Thank you.
SPEAKER_00 (25:04):
So I was an MC growing up.
And so much of my sermon prepprocess is listening to the
sound of the sermon as well andthe sentence structure.
It definitely comes out in mypreaching process as well.
So I appreciate that.
Thank you.
SPEAKER_02 (25:17):
Thank you.
SPEAKER_00 (25:18):
So we went through the personal, we went through
the pastoral.
SPEAKER_02 (25:22):
Really?
It's a set of.
SPEAKER_00 (25:24):
I want to now hit the political.
You are an activist.
Tell us about the work that youhave done to lead the Target
fast and where are we now withthis?
SPEAKER_02 (25:35):
Yes.
Some amazing, brilliant sistersat Minneapolis started the
Target board, kind of on recordand gave homage to black women.
They started it.
People like Nina Turner in Ohiowere doing it.
Tamika Mallory, my sister in NewYork.
I carved out a space called theTarget Fast because I was afraid
(25:58):
the Black Church was no longer aBible voice.
This was a call for the Blackchurch to become involved and
engaged, where we have beenseparated for almost 25 years.
And this generation, by andlarge, does not look to the
Black church for propheticproclamation of speaking truth
to power.
(26:19):
I thought that this would be anon-ramp for the church to
reintroduce itself, and it has.
And I'm grateful for that.
This is the large demographic ofblack people who don't go to the
church, who self-identify asatheists, large demographic of
black people who claim to bespiritual but not Christian.
And so this was a tactical moveof how can the church become
(26:43):
involved as a consequence.
I am embarrassed to tell you.
SPEAKER_00 (27:14):
Wow.
SPEAKER_02 (27:15):
The Progressive Baptist Convention.
One.
We've got to take away the WaltDisney imagination that
everybody supported the civilrights movement.
They didn't.
That everybody supported Dr.
King.
They did not.
(27:36):
We've got to move with theremnant of those who are able to
push.
The intention was to get theblack church black and get black
re-engaged.
I'm thankful for nameless andfaceless pastors and
congregations around the countrywho have pushed the barrel up
the hill.
SPEAKER_00 (27:52):
So tell us about the importance of community-based
organizing.
At Abolitionist Sanctuary, Istarted the nonprofit to respond
to the church's inactivitytowards civic engagement and how
can we harness our historicalroots that is grounded in
freedom movements, particularlythe black church that was born
out of the freedom movement andas leaders in abolitionist
(28:15):
movements.
So what is the cause of theinaction of the church?
And what do you see as the hopefor us to become organized and
amass more political power?
SPEAKER_02 (28:28):
The first thing I'll do is a quote from Desmond Tutu,
who said something that hasriveted me as a pastor.
He said at the end of everyyear, the poor people in the
community should vote to see ifthe church should be open in
next year.
And if the poorest people in thecommunity voted, how many of our
churches would remain open?
(28:50):
So that has been my guidinglight.
I think what happened is yourgrandparents would use an
expression, our grandparentswould use an expression to black
people who achieved, whoexcelled, who graduate.
The expression was, you are acredit to the race.
(29:12):
We moved from communitydevelopment to personal
achievement.
I'm debt free.
Not the community is.
(30:00):
To see their mama, but didn'tfeel any real connection.
I remember a time I waspreaching for TBN some years
ago.
I got off the telephone and mydad called me.
I'm in the green room.
He said, Doc, I just watchedyou.
I said, Yeah.
He said, Man, you reallypreached.
I said, Thank you, Bishop.
I called my dad Bishop.
(30:20):
He said, TBN is global, isn'tit?
I said, Yes, sir.
He said, Tell me how you thinkit translated for the people in
Kenya when you said they gottagive a thousand dollar seed to
get blessed.
It shot me in between my eyes.
That I realized I wasproselytizing a colonized
(30:45):
gospel.
unknown (30:45):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (30:46):
And that I really had baptized dissociative
disorder.
That I really wasn't evenconnecting to who I was called
to.
And so I needed to stop lookingout the window and look in the
mirror to figure out what blooddripped from my own hands,
preaching a commercializedgospel that was really not
indigenous to my own environs.
SPEAKER_00 (31:10):
My God.
So much of the church hasreproduced this capitalist value
system that prioritizes theindividual.
SPEAKER_02 (31:21):
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (31:22):
And we have seen how that same value system has
harmed our community, this valuesystem of self-responsibility.
If I could just pull myself upby my own bootstraps, I would
make it.
And we know that not everyonehas access to boots, right?
And so it's not aboutmeritocracy, it's not about
self-responsibility, it's aboutaccess.
(31:44):
It's about access to resources.
And so my dissertation, myresearch in this organization is
doing the work of retraining theblack church.
SPEAKER_02 (31:53):
Awesome.
SPEAKER_00 (31:54):
And I would love for us to partner in ways in which
we could get you with ourabolition academy to teach a
course that we will do virtualto learn from the organizing
work that you've done.
SPEAKER_02 (32:05):
Be honored to do it.
It is sorely and desperatelyneeded because I'm grasping for
straws.
SPEAKER_01 (32:11):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (32:12):
Looking for a needle because we don't have a template
in this space.
Can you imagine in order for thework that I am called to do, I
have to look at a 1957 blueprintof SELC.
I don't have anything from thelast 30 years to glean from.
(32:34):
So no, I'd love to be a part ofit.
Just know transparently thatI'll be drinking as I'm pouring.
unknown (32:40):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (32:41):
Yeah.
So it'll be as much of a benefitfor me as it is to uh those in
whom you want me to pour into.
SPEAKER_00 (32:48):
It's crucial what you said.
I appreciate your transparencyand the evolution of your
ministry and where you are now.
So we're grateful for yourleadership.
And when I think about the workthat you do in the justice
space, a lot of it has to dowith economic empowerment.
You have this innovative idea touse the church as a site to
(33:08):
source cannabis for economicempowerment.
Where are you on that initiativeand what challenges you may have
received?
SPEAKER_02 (33:16):
Yeah, so let me say a couple of things.
That was on a podcast that Isaid, and the context was I am
embarrassed.
New birth, the church that Ipassed, is the largest
landowning black church inAmerica.
I sit on a continuous 365 acres,continuous.
(33:38):
And the only thing I had on mycampus is a sanctuary and a gym.
I come in as pastor and I metwith$35 million worth of debt.
So we're trying to figure outhow we're going to pay off this
debt because Dr.
(33:59):
Roberts four months fromforeclosure.
So what I said in the podcast isyou know, with all of this
greenery, I need to look at thecannabis industry because we've
been victimized by it, but thereare some medicinal properties,
blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
I'm nowhere with it to answeryour question because I was
raising it as a hypotheticalbecause cannabis is not legal in
(34:21):
Georgia.
Yeah, so it's not even anoption.
So I was brokering that at thetime that Stacey Abrams was
running for governor becausethat was one of her platforms.
So it got spun.
I'm gonna be selling weed in theBible bookstore.
So it has gone nowhere becauseour present governor Kemp is not
(34:42):
for the legalization of it.
So it's not even an option forus at this time.
SPEAKER_00 (34:47):
It was controversial.
I did raise it to Amy Bishop andwe had a conversation around it.
I thought it was a great idea.
SPEAKER_02 (34:55):
The views expressed about our hosts.
SPEAKER_00 (34:59):
But you aren't the only person who's moving for
that.
There are other movementslooking to combine the church
with the cannabis industry forthe purpose that you have
stated, is that blackpopulations have been
criminalized based on marijuanause.
And so it is a way to perhapsredeem or repair, restore that
process by having Blackcommunities benefit from the
(35:21):
legalization of it.
So I hear you.
I'm still stuck on the fact thatyou're saying only one
denomination signed up tosupport you on this Target FAS.
We're gonna have to change that.
We're gonna have to change that.
So whoever's listening,whoever's watching this podcast
episode, and you belong to ablack church, speak to your
bishop, your pastor, episcopalsupervisor, whoever it is, and
(35:43):
let's talk about how we cansupport Dr.
Bryant in the Target FAS andshow our solidarity in the Black
church.
I'm thinking also about the300,000 Black women who have
been forced out of theworkplace.
And your work as an activist,your work in economic
empowerment.
How do you feel about thechallenges that Black women face
with this Trump administration?
SPEAKER_02 (36:05):
It's egregious.
Black women are the mosteducated in this country.
SPEAKER_00 (36:10):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (36:10):
For Georgia, where I live, are the number one
homeowners for the state.
And so this is domestic violenceagainst Black women.
Violence has nine differentcategories.
Physical is just one of them.
This is financial violenceagainst black women.
The church is going to have tobe intentional on how we do
(36:33):
incubators to curateentrepreneurship.
We've got to create our own webof employment opportunities that
may be advantageous andstrategic for our sisters, but
this is crisis.
350,000 black women have losttheir jobs since March.
And 364,000 white men havegotten new jobs at there's a
(36:59):
direct correlation between thespurring of black women and the
elevation of white men.
SPEAKER_00 (37:05):
Yeah, and quite a disparity, an economic
disparity.
One could argue that the workthat you're doing with the
target fast to fight for DEI iswork that benefits the Black
community, particularly Blackwomen, right?
Yes.
And so that's really powerful.
When you think about thispresidential election and all
the degenerative policies thatare a part of Trump's executive
(37:29):
orders and legal precedents, alot has been weighing on my
heart in terms of the fractionwithin the movement.
It seemed that there hasn't beena consensus on the strategy to
defeat Trump and to win back ourdemocracy, right?
During the 2024 presidentialelection, there were a plethora
of pressing issues, includingPalestinian genocide.
And we've seen variousresponses.
(37:51):
Some people opted not to vote,some people voted independent,
and others reluctantly votedDemocrat.
But ultimately, Trump won, welost the U.S.
democracy.
I want to know what are yourthoughts on the past
presidential election and theurgency of us to find mutual
ground to move forwardregardless of our disagreements.
SPEAKER_02 (38:12):
Fitly spoken, I think one, just like there's a
project 2025, what is the ask ofthe black community?
We're a few weeks away from theCongressional Black Caucus.
The midterms are a stonethrowaway.
What is our issue?
And I think that we've got toget into a closed door because
(38:33):
we have become so conditioned tobe reactionary that we don't
know how to plan.
And so, what is the plan for usin terms of our throughout three
things?
SNAP benefits a year from now,there'll be no free lunch in
schools.
So I just speak from the laneI'm in.
(38:55):
Are we gonna send all the churchmothers to take over the
cafeteria at the middle school?
Or are we busing all the kids tothe church for them to eat at
lunchtime?
Or are we sending vacation Bibleschool boxes to plant?
We already know that there'll beno snap, which is big, beautiful
bill.
Number two, Dr.
Roberts, in 18 months, we willsee the largest amount of
(39:20):
homeless black senior citizensin America's history.
Because in the conversation ofMedicaid and Medicare, we've not
done the aggressive conversationon seniors being evicted from
senior housing, evicted fromassisted living.
Where is the black church'sposition paper on AI?
(39:44):
Where's the black churchposition paper on data centers
coming into the black community,extracting the water, and
leaving remnants of land?
So those are just three issues.
It's very hard for us to do itbecause our black mainline civil
rights organizations will notpick a lane or pick an issue
(40:05):
because, to our own peril, wereduced civil rights to
aggressive policing.
So we had hashtags every othermonth and didn't deal with no
other issue.
The safeguarding of HBCUs, thegentrification of our
communities, medical ormedicinal apartheid, the housing
(40:26):
crisis, food insecurity.
If everybody got in a room andsaid, okay, you deal with this,
you deal with this, you deal,because the whole model of there
being one leader or oneorganization or one denomination
is archaic and it will not last.
I was lecturing at a college acouple of weeks ago, and I asked
(40:48):
them, they were all doctoralstudents, I asked them, do you
all believe that there is aviable LGBTQAI plus movement in
unison?
They all lifted their hands.
I said, Great.
Let me ask you who is the leaderof LGBTQ AI plus movement?
(41:12):
These are doctoral students.
No answer.
I said, You identify thatthere's a movement but can't
find a leader.
The black community has got toevolve that leadership does not
necessitate a microphone.
It can't just be the one personspeaking at the press
(41:33):
conference.
We've got to figure out how dowe move the needle and not do it
under an old paradigm structure.
But it's got to be so manyvoices.
When they came to arrest Jesus,they didn't know which one he
was because all of them weredressed in the same thing.
And so our leadership modelshave got to shift and they've
got to evolve in order for us togo into this space.
SPEAKER_00 (41:55):
Wow, you said a lot there.
I agree that our focus should bemultidimensional, that there
isn't a single issue.
I think there needs to be astrategy around prioritizing
issues.
Yes.
I don't think our focus onpolicing undermined our
collective power.
(42:16):
I think it was important for thetime because of what we had seen
in the volume of numbers, theimminence and the pervasiveness
of state violence against blackand brown bodies that it was.
SPEAKER_02 (42:30):
I agree.
I just think that the prismshould be larger.
We spent all of our energy, andI was on the front line from
Traffund to Freddie Gray inBaltimore, George Floyd.
I was involved in all of those.
But at the same time that thatwas happening, some other
tributaries needed to be carved.
And we've looked up, and wedon't have anything in the
pipeline.
(42:50):
The other thing that has tohappen that I have to say, yeah,
and I may be chased off of thecliff from saying it, this is
the oldest leadership BlackAmerica has ever had.
I'm 52.
unknown (43:03):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (43:04):
It is embarrassing that I'm considered a young
leader.
unknown (43:11):
Right.
SPEAKER_02 (43:12):
I've outlived Malcolm Martin Marcus at 52.
So it needs to be a whole nothergroup that is coming, but
there's a bottleneck from as oflate.
And you all hear me, we're in aclinical intellectual
conversation.
So I don't want you all to takethis as shade.
Debate just this week on whetherthe representative in DC should
(43:35):
step down or not, or whether anew person should come.
And at 84 years old, they won'tmove aside.
And so we've got to have somereal family meetings on black
privilege and leadership.
But because you're in it, don'tmean you should die in it.
SPEAKER_01 (43:51):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (43:52):
Mexico just elected their new Supreme Court.
And here's what's amazing andnovel in Mexico, you can only be
on the Supreme Court for 12years and you can't run again.
That's it.
I think we need to reallyre-evaluate what leadership
looks like in civic space.
(44:13):
And less I banish myself toGilligan's Island, what it looks
like in spiritual cleric space.
SPEAKER_00 (44:20):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (44:21):
On how do we change that guard and how do we pivot?
SPEAKER_00 (44:24):
And it's an important call to the black
church, particularly torevitalize our youth ministry so
that we are preparing our youthto lead these social movements.
SPEAKER_02 (44:33):
And the youth ministry shouldn't be 45.
SPEAKER_00 (44:35):
Right.
Agreed.
But there is another side towhat you're saying.
I think what we're talking is areformist conversation, right?
How can we fix the system?
There's also the revolutionaryside or the abolitionist side.
How do we dismantle this systemand build something better in
its place?
And as a creative, I encourageus to also think about how we
(44:57):
can create something better.
There is in Georgia, in fact, Ithink it's called Freedom
Georgia.
A group of 70 families cametogether.
SPEAKER_02 (45:06):
Yes, and bought 5,000 acres.
SPEAKER_00 (45:08):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (45:09):
So I think that we've got to see it differently.
And famous line, the revolutionwill not be televised, is that
being an abolitionist does notalways find itself synonymous
with a picket sign and a racefist.
What they are doing isabolitionist work, is freedom
(45:31):
fighting work.
We have to reimagine whatleadership looks like and what
the fight looks like.
It is not good enough for us tojust boycott target if we're not
advancing blackentrepreneurship.
So there's several differentways that we've got to do it,
but I think they're just spoton.
SPEAKER_00 (45:49):
Thank you so much.
As we conclude this episode,let's end on some lighter notes.
Tell us what you like to do forfun and relaxation and why is
levity important to you.
We see all the viral reels andcontent between you and your
wife, and you guys love to pickon each other.
So tell us what is theimportance of that type of
levity.
SPEAKER_02 (46:10):
You have got to find a way to live.
SPEAKER_01 (46:15):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (46:15):
Of going to the movies, traveling, going out to
eat.
unknown (46:19):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (46:20):
Going with my wife shopping.
I don't like to do it, butthat's what we do.
So yeah, I mean, we're going toflea markets and thrifting,
watch a whole season of Netflixin four days.
I think finding self to notbecome a slave to your phone,
not becoming a slave to socialmedia, not being a slave to text
(46:41):
message, but Shakespeare tothine own self be true.
SPEAKER_01 (46:44):
Yes.
SPEAKER_02 (46:45):
Who is it that makes me who it is that I am?
What makes me tick when I don'thave to perform?
SPEAKER_00 (46:50):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (46:51):
And so finding that can show up in many different
ways.
SPEAKER_00 (46:54):
What's next for you, Dr.
Bryant?
SPEAKER_02 (46:57):
I am going to be at the Abolition Freedom Academy.
I think that's the AbolitionAcademy.
Abolition Academy.
Yeah, I got to sit down andfinish a book that is long past
overdue.
And what's next for me isfiguring out who I can support
in these midterm elections.
This election is going to be socritical, so vital, so important
(47:19):
that we're really going to haveto dig in.
I got a whole lot of work to do.
SPEAKER_00 (47:23):
Yes, likewise.
Include us as co-conspirators inthat work.
Call on that.
SPEAKER_02 (47:27):
I love it.
I'm using that.
Thank you.
SPEAKER_00 (47:29):
So as our wrap it round and our closing, I'm going
to mention some sentences andwords, and you just tell us the
first thing that comes to mind.
You ready?
SPEAKER_02 (47:37):
I'm ready.
SPEAKER_00 (47:38):
A hip hop song on your playlist that's on repeat.
SPEAKER_02 (47:42):
Started at the bottom.
Now we're here.
SPEAKER_00 (47:44):
Hey.
Name three living people youwant in the room to change the
world.
SPEAKER_02 (47:50):
President of Bikina Faso.
President of Nigeria.
And Jasmine Crockett.
SPEAKER_00 (47:59):
My soror.
Yes.
Favorite food?
SPEAKER_02 (48:03):
Soul food.
I can eat fried chicken, yams,and greens seven days a week.
It drives my wife crazy.
I'm easy.
SPEAKER_00 (48:10):
Next time you come to LA, we'll have to host you
because I could cook.
SPEAKER_02 (48:14):
Oh, I'm coming.
Don't tell me we're the wholetime.
I'm coming.
SPEAKER_00 (48:17):
Most enjoyed activity.
SPEAKER_02 (48:20):
Spending time with my wife.
SPEAKER_00 (48:22):
Guilty pleasure.
SPEAKER_02 (48:25):
Insomnia cookies.
SPEAKER_00 (48:28):
Pet peeves.
SPEAKER_02 (48:32):
Black preachers who support a white evangelical
agenda.
SPEAKER_00 (48:39):
Your childhood nickname.
SPEAKER_02 (48:42):
Jay.
SPEAKER_00 (48:43):
Baltimore or Atlanta?
SPEAKER_02 (48:46):
Atlanta.
SPEAKER_00 (48:47):
Biggie or Pac.
SPEAKER_02 (48:51):
Let me say this.
SPEAKER_00 (48:53):
One word, Doc.
SPEAKER_02 (48:54):
I'ma answer it, but I gotta give you context.
SPEAKER_00 (48:56):
Okay.
SPEAKER_02 (48:57):
Because they don't give me my flowers right.
They don't give me my flowersright.
Okay.
Did you know?
Because you're a hip hop head,you're a former MC.
SPEAKER_00 (49:06):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (49:06):
Did you know I preached a memorial service for
both of them?
SPEAKER_00 (49:09):
I did not know that.
SPEAKER_02 (49:11):
You didn't know it.
SPEAKER_00 (49:13):
Wow.
SPEAKER_02 (49:14):
At that time I was National Youth Director, the
NAACP, and Russell Simmons wastrying to build the East Coast
West Coast Peace Summit.
So that we stopped divine.
So all of us were in the roomwith all of the rappers and all
of that.
And I was the only preacher ofthe group that emerged.
Lyrically wise, I play moreoften Biggie.
(49:36):
Philosophically, I'm with Tupac.
But as a lyricist, I'm withBiggie all day long.
SPEAKER_00 (49:41):
I love it.
Favorite preacher.
SPEAKER_02 (49:44):
Dead or alive.
SPEAKER_00 (49:46):
One dead, one alive.
SPEAKER_02 (49:49):
I'm gonna throw you off.
My favorite dead preacher.
Let me say my preaching preacherof all preaching is Martin
Luther King Jr.
But my favorite dead preacher isCaesar Clark.
SPEAKER_00 (50:02):
Okay.
SPEAKER_02 (50:03):
My favorite living preacher is John Bryan.
SPEAKER_00 (50:06):
Oh, I love that.
I love that.
Fashion.
SPEAKER_02 (50:10):
Call them Renaissance.
SPEAKER_00 (50:11):
That's right.
Morehouse.
SPEAKER_02 (50:14):
Best college ever.
SPEAKER_00 (50:16):
A and me.
SPEAKER_02 (50:21):
I have nothing but good things.
Let me say, I gotta answer this.
There's one answer.
I gotta say, I didn't value theAME church, being dead serious.
I didn't value the AME churchuntil I left it.
And I'm third generation A.
I know you know that beforeyou're listening, third
generation AME.
And I couldn't find adenomination or fellowship or
network that does morediasporically, does more for
(50:45):
higher education, does more formissions than the AME church.
And so I I appreciate the antfor.
SPEAKER_00 (50:52):
All right, New Birth.
SPEAKER_02 (50:54):
New birth lives up to its name.
Kappa is the prettiest men thatyou've ever seen in your life.
What you gonna do?
What you gonna do?
SPEAKER_00 (51:07):
Dr.
Carey.
SPEAKER_02 (51:09):
Prettiest woman, the most brilliant, beautiful woman
I've ever met in my life.
The first woman I ever met thatI didn't think I deserved.
SPEAKER_00 (51:20):
We like her.
She's a keeper.
SPEAKER_02 (51:22):
I agree.
I tell her if you leave me, I'mgoing with her.
SPEAKER_00 (51:27):
And finally, abolitionist Sanctuary.
SPEAKER_02 (51:31):
It is a safe space for critical thinkers.
SPEAKER_00 (51:36):
Thank you for joining this conversation, Dr.
Brian.
It was a joy to have you.
This is the AbolitionistSanctuary podcast.
Please share this episode anddownload on all platforms.
Follow us on YouTube, Facebook,Instagram, and download the
Abolitionist Sanctuary Mobileapp to connect to a faith-based
abolitionist movement.
At abolitionistsctuary.com, youcan enroll in courses and become
(51:59):
certified in abolition at socialchange.
Visit abolitionistsanctuary.orgto give, become a member, and
subscribe to our mailing list.
As we conclude this episode,remember abolition is not only a
practice, but it is a way oflife.
And for me, abolition is myreligion.
Let's leave, repair, restore,and rebuild a more just and
(52:19):
equitable society together.
Thank you, Dr.
Bryan.
SPEAKER_02 (52:22):
Thank you.
I'm going to download the app.
I'm going to get it right now.
Thank you for having me.
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