June 4, 2024 • 49 mins
Join Dr. Nika in a discussion with Patrisse Cullors, the co-founder of Black Lives Matter. Cullors' journey will inspire you as she shares how her maternal lineage and ancestral experiences with religion and systemic oppression fuel her art and activism. One standout moment is her collaboration with designer Rita Nazarino on the North Star bag collection, a project that combines traditional hand weaving with potent abolitionist symbolism inspired by Underground Railroad quilt patterns. Enhancing the narrative is a poignant poem by formerly incarcerated Black poet Nisi Berry, making these bags a canvas for abolitionist expression and future.
Our conversation takes you through the transformative power of embracing West African spiritual traditions, particularly Ifa, through the influence of Malidoma Patrice Somé's seminal book, "The Healing Wisdom of Africa." We delve into a moving case study from Malawi, as Ida Puliwa's work in her village to empower girls highlights the synergy between mutual aid and community resilience against patriarchal oppression that makes the African diaspora instructive for building abolitionist futures in the U.S.. Additionally, we examine the intertwined histories of African indigenous religions and political movements, underscoring how practices like Voodoo, Candomblé, and Orishas have historically fortified Black power and resistance. These reflections are deeply personal, drawing connections between abolition and the Cullors' own family encounters with carceral systems.
Our discussion pivots to the critical role of healing justice, particularly in the context of the Los Angeles County jail system. Spearheaded by concepts championed by Cara Page, we emphasize the necessity of healing justice services to support continually traumatized communities. Shifting the focus from individual self-care to collective care, we outline systemic changes vital for addressing the deep scars racism inflicts on Black health and well-being. We also touch on the delicate balance of activism and motherhood, revealing the often overlooked physical and emotional toll borne by those on the front lines. Wrapping up, we discuss the crucial role of artists in the struggle for abolition and reimagining a more just and equitable world.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
One, two, three, four .
Welcome to the AbolitionistSanctuary Podcast, where we
bring you leading voicesconfronting issues and
interventions at theintersections of faith,
abolition and Black motherhood.
Our vision is to build afaith-based abolitionist
movement and we invite you, ourlisteners, to support and join
(00:23):
our coalition.
Abolitionist Sanctuary is anonprofit organization that
provides public education andcertified training to faith
communities, civic organizations, educational institutions and
individuals who aim to organizeagainst the moral crisis of mass
incarceration and thecriminalization of impoverished
Black motherhood.
(00:44):
I am your host, reverend DrNakia Smith-Robert, the
Executive Director ofAbolitionist Sanctuary.
You can follow me at Nakia SRobert and at Abolitionist
Sanctuary on Instagram, facebookand Twitter.
You can also sign up forexclusive updates.
Donate and support us atwwwabolitionistsanctuaryorg.
(01:09):
I am excited to welcome ourguest today, patrice Cullors,
the co-founder of Black LivesMatter, artist and abolitionist.
Hi, patrice, hi, it's sowonderful to have you here.
(01:34):
Thanks for having me.
Can you tell us your pronouns?
Yes, give us a visual of howyou're presenting yourself in
this space and tell us who areyour people.
Speaker 2 (01:48):
Yeah, my pronouns are she, hers, and I am donning a
big Afro.
I have a round face, almondshapedshaped eyes, a full nose,
full lips and I have a tattoo, aline tattoo down my chin that
(02:14):
goes down to my neck and rightabove my chest.
Speaker 1 (02:21):
Amazing, and who are your people?
Speaker 2 (02:24):
Oh, hmm, it's a good question maternal lineage and
(02:45):
the people who came from theSouth to the West thinking like
they're going to have a betterlife.
And really, you know, my greatgrandmother always says that she
left her hometown because ofthe KKK and then coming to the
(03:10):
West and experiencing lawenforcement and the impact law
enforcement had on her life andher children, her grandchildren
and her grandchildren's children.
So I'm thinking about mymaternal lineage right now.
Speaker 1 (03:32):
It's just horrific how deep and long policing has
terrorized Black communitiesfrom the earliest of ancestors
even to the present daycommunities from the earliest of
ancestors even to the presentday and I'm interested in how
you are using art as a platformfor resistance.
So can you tell us a bit aboutyour earliest recollection with
(04:00):
art and how these pivotalmoments have led to advanced
degrees, teaching in the academyand a methodology for your own
community organizing?
Speaker 2 (04:09):
Yes, I've been an artist for as long as I can
remember.
There isn't a time in my lifethat art wasn't critical,
necessary, an important medium,an important language.
And I'd say that it wasprobably, you know, when I was
(04:38):
in middle school, when Irealized that I was an artist,
that I realized that I wasdifferent, that I see the world
differently, that I see itthrough a creative and artistic
lens, and it was freeing to feelthat and experience that.
(05:01):
And then it wouldn't be untilhigh school that I'm'm
politicized and, you know,introduced to Audre Lorde and
introduced to Zora, nealeHurston and Toni Morrison, and,
then, you know, soon after that,introduced to the Panther Party
and the organizers you knowBlack organizing and I think you
(05:27):
know I remember feeling apressure to stop being an artist
and only be, you know, anorganizer.
And I remember thinking, no,that's not possible for me, I
can't live my life socompartmentalized.
And I remember using my art asa way to communicate my politics
(05:52):
and my values, and that feltlike an important evolution for
me as a younger person.
Speaker 1 (06:00):
Yeah, yeah, and I feel like that is a tool of
empire for us tocompartmentalize various
categories right and not livethe wholeness of your being.
Vogue Fashion wrote an articlefeaturing a bag collection
(06:35):
between yourself and RitaNazarino and said that it is,
quote unquote, all about freedomand inspired by quilts and
poetry.
So can you share a bit aboutyour North Star bag collection?
Speaker 2 (06:47):
Yes, rita Nazarino is an amazing designer out of the
Philippines and she is thecreative director of a
hundred-year-old workshop thatshe inherited from her
grandmother.
Um that that her grandmotherstarted uh, that was really
(07:11):
making baskets, uh, wickerbaskets.
And when she took over theworkshop, zacharias, um, she
said, I don't want to makebaskets, I want to make bags.
And started making these amazingbags and the bags.
(07:33):
I saw these bags on a friendand I said who's this?
You know what is this bag Like?
I need it.
And my friend said, oh, this is, um, you know, my good friend,
rita Nazarino, and she's a bigfan of yours.
You all should hang out.
We did, we had dinner and Iremember sitting there with her
(07:56):
and I said, you know, I said can, can we do something together?
Uh, and she was like absolutely.
And she was like absolutely.
And so you know, this has beensuch a labor of love, such an
(08:17):
important conversation for me.
How do we?
What's the intersection of art,fashion and abolition, fashion
and abolition?
And for me this was kind ofthat first project trying to
figure that out.
And Rita Nazarino's workshop iscalled Zacharias 1925, which
(08:43):
you know she says it places acontemporary thrust and the
traditional craft of handweaving, so all the bags are
hand woven.
She comes from an architecturalbackground and a contemporary
art background, so you could seethat in her work.
Look at the use of quilts andquilt making that Black
(09:05):
Americans have used, especiallyduring the Underground Railroad.
There was a, you know, a, hugequilts were this moment to kind
of like when you were part ofthe Underground Railroad to
people where to go, and therewere these symbols and
(09:27):
signatures that provided alanguage towards freedom, and so
I wanted these bags to do that.
And so I looked at the way inwhich the different stars and
symbols on quilts were, and Iwanted to put that on these bags
.
I feel like they're.
You know, if you're wearingthis bag in the world, you're
(09:50):
telling people I'm anabolitionist and we need those.
We need that.
We need like a new language inwhich we are communicating an
abolitionist presence and future.
And so I asked Nisi Berry, whois a formerly incarcerated Black
(10:15):
literary, one of my favoriteBlack poets, to provide a
signature poem for these bags.
And so on the front of the bagyou'll see these gorgeous stars,
but on the back of the bagyou'll see a leather flap where
the bag opens up, and on thatleather flap there's a poem
(10:36):
that's been lasered and it'scalled carrying freedom, and the
bags are really a conversationaround abolition and what it
looks like for Black women, andso I really wanted to work with
a Black artist a Black formerlyincarcerated artist who
(10:57):
identifies as an abolitionist,and also show her work, and so
that is the project.
I was so excited that VoguePhilippines featured it, and
there's also some exciting newsthat I can't share now about the
exhibition and the bags.
But there was an exhibitionthat launched at CDM Gallery,
(11:21):
which is the commercial galleryof the Crenshaw Dairy Mart, and
we had lots of folks visit us,including some really cool
museums, and so soon I'll tellyou the news so you can share it
with your followers ofAbolitionist Sanctuary.
But there's some really coolnews that comes out of this
(11:43):
exhibition and these bags.
Speaker 1 (11:46):
So Patrice is our strategic advisor.
She is my strategic advisor toAdolescence Sanctuary, so I'm
wondering if we could get anexclusive drop on this amazing
news that you're holding overthere.
Yes, no, not yet.
Speaker 2 (12:06):
Not yet, I can't, but I will.
I'll let y'all know first thatyou could tell the folks, and
then I'll go out wide.
Speaker 1 (12:16):
Sounds amazing.
So I love how you shared withus the aesthetic details, the
significance of symbolism andmeaning.
I saw the bag firsthand duringa protest that we were doing
together and I mean it's justit's striking Like it is so
powerful, and to see it functionin that space of resistance
(12:41):
right To materially in real life, see art work as resistance as
we are protesting, and seeingyou leading us with this bag on
your back and the symbolism thatit carries was just extremely
powerful.
I'm interested if how the NorthStar is paying homage to
(13:03):
Harriet Tubman right with thisNorth Star concept, but also
acting as a bridgeintergenerationally to inspire
future abolitionists.
How do you see that functioning?
Speaker 2 (13:16):
So, you know, I do think that we need more signs
and symbols that help identifywho's an abolitionist.
I'm thinking a lot about youknow, how divided the country is
right now.
I'm thinking a lot about who ismost vulnerable, who's being
targeted, who's beinghyper-targeted, and like what it
(13:41):
means to have symbols thatpeople know, that people know um
, okay, this is a safe person,this is a safe place.
Um, and you know, I obviouslythink about Harriet Tubman all
the time.
She's actually what inspired um.
You know some of the my earlyworks in performance art.
(14:04):
You know some of the my earlyworks in performance art, and
looking at the impact of thecounty jail system here in Los
Angeles and thinking about whatis important um for um
abolishing, uh, theincarceration system, the
carceral system in particular.
Um, she's someone who I feltlike I just I would talk to, I
(14:25):
would ideate with and ask fordownloads from her in order to
be able to make sense of what Iwas trying to do up against such
a huge, unruly, violent system.
Speaker 1 (14:42):
You know, ruthie Gilmore, in her book
Abolitionist Geography, writesabout Harriet Tubman and she
quotes she says about a storythat Harriet Tubman told and she
says I knew of a man who wassent to the state prison for 25
(15:03):
years.
All these years he was alwaysthinking of his home and
counting the time till he shouldbe free.
The years roll on, the time ofimprisonment ends over.
The man is free, he leaves theprison gates, he makes his way
to the old home.
But his old home is not there.
The house in which he had dweltin his childhood had been torn
(15:24):
down and a new one had been putin its place.
His family were gone.
Their very name was forgotten.
There was no one to take him bythe hand, to welcome him back
to life.
So it is with me.
I had crossed the line of whichI had so long been dreaming.
I was free, but there was noone to welcome me to the land of
(15:45):
freedom.
I was a stranger in a strangeland and my home, after all, was
down in the old cabin quarterwith the old folks and my
brothers and sisters.
But to this solemn resolution Icame.
I was free and they should befree also.
I will make a home for them,and Ruthie Gilmore is making
(16:07):
this connection of how abolitionis a place, and it's
interesting as we think ofabolition as geography, as place
and re-entry, right, ourbrothers and sisters, our
siblings who are coming home,sisters, our siblings who are
coming home do we have a placefor them where they can be free?
Right?
(16:32):
And I'm wondering how you seeabolition as a definition that
we can hold on to as we thinkabout creating spaces and places
for people to be free.
Speaker 2 (16:38):
Yeah, I've been thinking a lot about underground
railroad spaces, and because wedon't, because we're not free
right now and because freedom is, it's unclear when it's coming.
But what we can do is createspaces of freedom I like to call
(17:04):
them freedom portals and reallylooking at what kind of
institutions, collectives,businesses, physical spaces
we're creating that give peoplethose moments of freedom, those
moments of breath, people, thosemoments of freedom, those
moments of breath.
I imagine our ancestors, youknow, leaving plantations,
(17:36):
fleeing them and getting tounderground railroad homes and
businesses and spaces and havingthat just moment to breathe and
what that must have felt liketo be able to regulate your
nervous system just for a bit oftime, before you had to go back
out in the world and the unfreeplaces to find the next
Underground Railroad space, tofinally get to a free state or a
free country.
(17:56):
That's where we're at right now.
If our people are unable towalk down streets without being
murdered, if our people areunable to live their lives and
then end up being kidnapped bylaw enforcement and taken off to
prison or jail without dueprocess, if a rumor can be made
(18:23):
up and spread across right-wingmedia and create, you know,
misinformation anddisinformation for community
members and leaders and folksare left, you know, with the
fallout of that.
Speaker 1 (18:39):
We're not free, and so freedom right now looks like
creating those spaces, thoseunderground railroad spaces gave
(19:04):
me an informal guided tour hepastors a church in Kansas City,
kansas an informal guided tourto one of the last destinations
on the Underground Railroadcrossing from, I believe,
missouri into Kansas, because Ithink Missouri is one of the
last states to be emancipatedand Kansas was free and we stood
there overlooking the horizonsand seeing in the shadows the
(19:29):
open land that the slaves, ourAfrican ancestors, traversed to
get to freedom right, and one ofthe key organizations in
preserving that ground and I'mnot going to say it right, I
think it's Quintero, but I'msure I'm wrong and I'll have to
circle back to that name but theAME church was essential in
(19:52):
preserving that site and I thinkabout the role of churches as
stops along the UndergroundRailroad, and Harriet Tubman
herself belonged to the AME ZionChurch right and Mother Bethel
in Philly still preserves as amuseum artifacts as a stop of
the Underground Railroad, and sochurches played an instrumental
(20:16):
role right within theabolitionist movement.
I also worked with anotherorganization in New Jersey and
we created a toolkit on policeaccountability, and what was
fascinating about some of theresearch that they did is that
they looked at all of thechurches Black churches who were
involved in a stop on theUnderground Railroad.
So that's data that is usefulfor you.
(20:38):
I'm happy to get that to you.
Speaker 2 (20:40):
I would love that.
That's really powerful.
Speaker 1 (20:44):
Absolutely, so we'll get that to you.
I'm happy to get that to you.
I would love that.
That's really powerful.
Absolutely, so we'll get thatto you.
And that toolkit is availablepublicly, so we'll be sure to
get that to you.
But this role of faith andabolition right and the ways in
which the church was involved inthe Underground Railroad and
Ablish's movement, can you tellus about your own faith system,
(21:06):
your faith beliefs and how ithas evolved from your younger
days as a Jehovah's Witness towhere you are traveling across
the diaspora with Africanreligious traditions?
What is the role of faith andhow does it inform your sense of
freedom as a place?
Speaker 2 (21:25):
faith and how does it inform your sense of freedom as
a place?
Faith is critical for me.
I grew up Jehovah's Witness anda really you know Jehovah's
Witness family.
I think probably by my teenageyears I was like this isn't the
tradition for me and it wasreally clear that I was looking
for indigenous spiritualtechnology.
I felt it inside of me.
(21:46):
I felt a deep longing forindigenous spiritual technology
and wisdom and did a deep dive,did a search.
You know, where is my people?
Where is our lineage?
What have we done?
(22:17):
How do I hold that space?
You know Black man who had hadhis own journey around Western
tradition and colonialism'simpact on his people from
Burkina Faso, and he wrote manybooks.
(22:38):
But the book that transformedmy life was the Healing Wisdom
of Africa.
One of my good friendsintroduced it to our little
community of Black queer womenand I read that book and I said,
ok, I want to find thistradition and I need to find
traditions that really makesense for me.
(22:58):
I went and met with Mali Doma afew times.
I went and met with Malidoma afew times.
I got to get a divination fromhim before he passed away.
That was really powerful.
But then I would find Ifa, thetradition of the Yoruba people.
And in that experience, infinding Ifa, I found myself.
(23:23):
I got to reclaim myself, mylineage, my ancestors, and not
just my ancestors here and onTurtle Island, but my ancestors
from the western shores ofAfrica, and so that has been a
(23:49):
game changer for me.
I've been in the tradition nowfor 20 years, almost 20 years,
and that's wild.
I've been initiated for almost15 years, um, you know, 13 to 15
(24:10):
years, uh and it's been a avery, very, very important part
of my identity.
That until up until recently Iwould say, maybe these last
several months I have months Ihave an exhibition right now at
a gallery called the CharlieJames Gallery that looks at the
(24:31):
Odu Ifa in my tradition.
It's not until recently whereI'm being much more open about
my spiritual practice.
Speaker 1 (24:40):
I love it.
You know I'm teaching a coursecalled African Religions and
Politics for AbolitionistFutures.
That's right.
And yeah, it's a fire course,patrice, like it's fire.
I love that we're using Malawias a case study.
We're working with a womannamed Ida Puliwa in Malawi and
(25:05):
she's doing phenomenalabolitionist work through
empowering her village to beself-sustaining against the
patriarchy of chiefs who toldher that she can't do it because
she's just a girl.
And she is providing literacyprograms, agriculture, health,
(25:25):
education around cervical cancerand HIV AIDS.
And it all started with herasking kind of a mutual aid
mechanism, asking her village togive seven cents to volunteer,
and they pooled their resourcestogether to become
self-sustaining.
And they pooled their resourcestogether to become
self-sustaining.
And it made me think, afterhearing her story, what is
instructive from the Africandiaspora for global abolitionist
(25:49):
futures?
Right, and so we began to lookat the role of religion in that.
So the role of voodlé andLukumi and Santaria and the
Orishas and the Orishas'connection to Black power
movements that we don't reallytalk about, right, and so what's
(26:13):
beautiful about Africanindigenous religions is that
there is no partition betweenthe religious and the political.
That's right.
Right, it is one system and sothere is no partition between
the religious and the political.
That's right.
Right, it is one system and sothere is no choice to be a
bystander for injustices.
Right, and the role of gender,that women in Candomblé are more
(26:36):
susceptible to divination thanmen.
Right, and so we're reading.
I offer this book to you byDiane Stewart.
It's two volumes and I have toget that to you, but she's doing
a lot of work with the Orishasand Obeah and Trinidad and its
connection to politics and Blackpower movements.
(26:59):
That's phenomenal work.
So thank you for sharing therole of your religious systems
to abolition and freedom, and sothis call for abolition has
been deeply personal for you andthe ways in which carceral
systems have negatively affectedfamily members who are justice
(27:19):
impacted, including your dad.
Rest in peace.
Your cousin Kenan Anderson,rest in peace, and your brother
Right.
Tell us, how are you findinghealing in art to cope and find
well-being amidststate-sponsored violence and
carceral terror?
Speaker 2 (27:39):
Oh man, I mean honestly, it's the healing
justice work.
Of so many people who havecalled for healing justice Early
on.
I think a lot about Cara Page,who coined the term healing
justice, who just wrote a bookcalled Healing Justice Lineages.
But you know, when I startedorganizing, I remember having to
(28:07):
go to these board meetings andtell these board people how
awful the conditions were andthe impact on my life.
And seeing people ignore me andignore the community that I was
with and walk out the door ortalk to their staff and the
(28:33):
dehumanization that youexperience when you're
advocating for yourself and yourpeople, um is really painful.
And so when I started myorganization, the first
organization started Dignity andPower.
Now, uh, that has now beenaround for 12 years.
Its primary focus is to take onthe Los Angeles County jail
system and to organizecommunities who've been directly
(28:55):
impacted by share of violence.
I was like I don't want to dothis in a way that
re-traumatizes the community andI want to make sure that we
have healing justice servicesfor the people who we are asking
to tell their stories every dayas an act of courage.
(29:17):
It's an act of courage to tellthat story every time you go to
a board meeting, knowing thatthese people may or may not
listen to you, and so thehealing justice work was
critical for me to have be apillar, and so you'll see it as
pretty much all theorganizations, all the
businesses that I have createdestablished been a part of
(29:42):
founding healing and healingjustice is at the center of it,
at the center of them, and thenmy own personal practice.
I'm a deep believer of therapy.
You know, in 2018, when myfirst book was published by
Memoir, one of the first thingsthat I said to the media was
(30:04):
firstly, black people needreparations, and part of our
reparations package should be acompetent therapist for every
single black person.
In perpetuity, we needconsistent and perpetual care
(30:25):
for the harm that this place hasdone to us and continues to do
to us every single day.
You don't undo years and yearsof violence, racism.
Through a couple therapeuticsessions, I think a lot about
(30:46):
the impact physical illness hason black people.
You can get you know a blackperson who's the healthiest.
You know raw vegan, you knowtaking care of their bodies,
working out.
And then you know a whiteperson who is living in middle
America not eating well and lookat their health status and that
(31:11):
white person is going tooutlive the black person simply
because of racism, simplybecause of living in a violent
system that doesn't take care ofour bodies.
Think about maternal health care.
They say that black wealthymoms have worse maternal
outcomes than white poor womenbecause of a racist system,
(31:35):
because of all the years ofmedical neglect.
Before you get pregnant andhave a child, it doesn't matter
that you're wealthy, and so Ithink about that a lot as we're
talking about health and healing, what that will take.
It's not a personalresponsibility, although the
wellness sort of industry willsay it's your personal
responsibility to take care ofyourself.
(31:55):
No, I don't believe inself-care, I believe in
collective care.
I believe in the care of humanbeings through systems.
We need systemic care.
Speaker 1 (32:10):
Yeah, I was trying to find a reference my student had
gave me from his psych courses.
There's a formal diagnosis thatwas given to slaves for their
fugivity that they would think aslave wanting to run away from
slavery somehow was an act ofinsanity.
And certainly that's not themental health care that we're
(32:47):
calling for A decolonial mentalhealth care that heals and not
harm right, yeah, I'm just gonna.
Speaker 2 (32:56):
I looked it up Drapedomania was a supposed
mental illness that an 1851American physician, samuel A
Cartwright, hypothesized as thecause of enslaved Africans
fleeing captivity.
Speaker 1 (33:13):
Yes, that's it.
And there was another one too.
I can't find my notes fromclass last week, but yes, that's
it.
And it's insane to think thatwe're crazy and losing our mind
for wanting to be free andescape slavocracy.
And that's how society works,right?
That's how the hegemonicimagination works.
(33:34):
It's always to construct us asbestial, as animalistic, as
non-being, non-human in all theways psychologically,
emotionally, mentally,physically, aesthetically, right
To somehow cancel us right inthat way.
So you mentioned aboutreproductive justice, and you're
(34:00):
also a mother and I'm wonderingif you could share a bit.
How has it been to midwife amovement while also giving birth
to your child?
And as a mom right, what canyou tell us about midwifing a
movement and giving birth toyour own child?
And and how is your motheringum a way for you yourself to
(34:26):
cultivate, to nurture um thenext generation of abolitionists
?
Speaker 2 (34:34):
It's a good question.
I feel like I'm stillprocessing that question.
Okay, I feel like it's, youknow, the I think, back being
pregnant and the height has been.
There'll be many heights andmoments in our movements, but,
(34:56):
you know, I gave birth to mychild in 2016 and that was the
you know year of Alton Sterlingand Philando Castile, and I see
images of me.
It was, you know, two monthsmaybe after my pregnancy, I had
(35:22):
a.
I had an emergency C-sectionwhen I was, like in the streets,
you know, um, marching, and Iliterally cannot, I like cannot
believe I was, like you know,spending hours and hours in the
streets marching, um, given thatmy body was still trying to
heal from major surgery.
(35:44):
Um, I talk about activism andorganizing a lot as black people
, as you know, there's this ideathat black people just love to
be fighting for our lives on thefront lines, right?
So it's sort of a romantic ideaabout that, and I'll say that
many of us would rather bemaking art being with our
(36:06):
families cooking, being free,smelling the grass, frolicking,
gardening there's all thesethings in which Making love,
making love.
All these things in which ourlife would look different if we
didn't have to fight for it allthe time Right.
(36:29):
So many of us are courageousenough to fight for Black lives
and be a part of the lineagethat is the fight for Black
lives.
But I'll also say that I can'twait for a day where we don't
have to do it, where we can livefull, healthy, thriving lives.
Speaker 1 (37:04):
We don't have to call another family member and tell
them that loved one has beenkilled and walk them through the
process, where we don't have tobe the person experiencing our
loved one being killed andhaving to walk our loved ones
through the process of healing.
I look forward to that day.
We deserve that day we do Tolive long lives and become
elders and venerated ancestorsin the fullness of life.
Right, you have given so much,you have sacrificed so much for
(37:29):
this movement and I'm not surepeople understand the gravity
that comes with that, and so Ipersonally, every time I've seen
you and I've known you for morethan 10 years now give you my
deep appreciation for all thatyou have given and courageously
stood up for our democracy, forour country, for our communities
(37:51):
, for us to live, and in yourco-leadership role of pioneering
one of the most powerfulmovement in the history of Black
struggle.
What are some of yourreflections, revelations and
insights about the importance ofvalidating the Black Lives
Matter, but also protectingBlack women like yourself?
Speaker 2 (38:14):
Oh man, that's another one.
I'm still processing.
Speaker 1 (38:17):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (38:20):
I'll say that none of us were prepared for the level
of Black backlash that we'dexperience at the hands of white
racism, although we all knowabout it so well, we've read
about it, we've heard about it.
I think abolition, more deepstudy and practice with
abolitionist values will helpthis generation and the next
(38:45):
generation of organizers,activists in the fight for Black
lives.
We need to think about the waysto protect Black women more in
our work.
There is a deep need tore-evaluate all of our
relationship to social media,yes, and which we've allowed for
(39:08):
social media to become theplace where we believe what's on
it, especially misinformation,disinformation, especially Black
people.
When I saw Black peoplespreading the misinformation and
disinformation about me onlineand it wasn't digital Blackface,
(39:29):
because I know what's a bot andwhat's not that's when I was
most disappointed.
Also, that's when I was like,oh they, they, they've won.
Um, I, I just finished, I.
I every now and again go backand watch malcolm spikey's
malcolm x stunning film and Iremember um, you know all these
(39:52):
news articles that he wasreading about himself, about the
honorable elijah muhammad, and,and there's just this beautiful
conversation that he was havingand you know he wasn't using
the terms misinformation,disinformation.
But he was saying, like this isthe same newspaper that, um, uh
, you know this is a whitesupremacist newspaper, this is
(40:15):
white-led media and you have tobe really conscious of that.
So, yeah, I think you know somedeeper conversations about the
role of social media and therole it's played in upending
social movements.
I think we need to talk about,you know, racist algorithms.
(40:39):
Sophia Noble's work has beenprofound and really having this
conversation about racistalgorithms, I'm really
interested in the new technology, not because I'm interested in
using it, necessarily, but I'minterested in what role it's
(41:04):
going to play and creating moremisinformation and
disinformation and how we arereally ignorant on how to read
that.
You know, I've had to tell alot of my cousins because they
are getting trolled because ofme, after my cousin's death,
after Kenan's death to teachthem what's a bot, what's a real
(41:25):
person, what's not, what'sworth arguing with, what's not.
But the point is that socialmedia has created a space for
the division of this country tokeep being more and more divided
.
That's on purpose and if wedon't understand that and if we
are not able to create newpathways to challenge the
(41:47):
algorithm, we're going to letthis current COINTELPRO moment
really create a lot of havoc.
Speaker 1 (41:59):
Yes, yeah, and I'm happy that there are a lot of
scholars, or increasingly morescholars, who are dealing with
AI and algorithms from adecolonial lens and perspective.
I know there's someone at USC,a guy there that I met, who was
(42:20):
doing similar work.
But you're right, right, like,information for so long has been
used, or misinformation, tosabotage leaders and movements,
and the technology has justchanged movements, and the
technology has just changed,right, but it's all a form of
surveillance, right?
That's right, yeah, and so itis what Foucault called the
(42:42):
panopticon.
It is right, these systems ofpower that are working, and
we've seen the rise of it withTrump.
Right, even more so this use offake news and misinformation,
and we have to be vigilant.
We have to be vigilant, right,and we knew it in the 90s when
they said don't believe the hype, right Period.
(43:10):
And so I know we had somereally difficult questions and
many that you are stillprocessing.
So thank you for just openingyourself in this space.
I want to talk about what doyou do to find joy.
What do you do to find joy?
Speaker 2 (43:24):
Yeah, I hang out with my kid a lot.
I love being in community withmy friends and family.
I love cooking, making food.
Speaker 1 (43:41):
When my name get in that pot.
Speaker 2 (43:43):
I got you.
Sorry for the vegans, but I'mworking on an oxtail Oxtail
vibes.
I know I'm ready, i'm'm ready.
I've never made them, but I'mready to do it what girl I'm
gonna have to give you therecipes.
Let me tell you, I can throwdown too, so we might have to
(44:04):
have that's right somepotlucking, I'm down, um uh yeah
, I love being in nature and Ilove listening to music really
loud and dancing my ass off Allthose things.
Speaker 1 (44:23):
I love it.
I love it, I love it.
Well, and who keeps youaccountable to these things that
give you joy and make sure thatyou're not working from a
deficit but finding your cupoverflowing?
Who?
Speaker 2 (44:35):
holds you accountable or what I got a, I got a crew,
I got a crew that holds meaccountable and I really
appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (44:44):
Awesome, as we conclude this talk um the what
would you call it, but what wedid in the name of Kenan
Anderson?
A performance protest, aperformance protest.
Tell us about that.
Give us the vision and theimagery of that day.
Speaker 2 (45:01):
Yeah, I worked with Beyonce's choreographer, Jaquel
Knight, who choreographed anddirected a performance protest
to lift up my cousin, KenanAnderson, who was killed at a
traffic stop by.
LAPD, but also so many otherBlack people killed at traffic
stops across the country, and itwas just a moment to challenge
(45:23):
the current art world.
There's a huge fair calledFreeze that happens here in Los
Angeles.
It happened in Santa Monica,seven minutes away from where my
cousin was killed.
Not a single person a part ofFreeze connected with me,
knowing that I'm a part of theart world, asked me questions,
asked me how they could support,and I really wanted to
(45:46):
challenge their audience andtheir base to look at what's
happening right next door.
Speaker 1 (45:53):
Yeah, it was a powerful demonstration.
It was picked up by the NewYork Times.
It was a powerful demonstration.
Well, sis, thank you so muchfor being with us today.
Is there any way that we couldsupport you?
Anything you want to drophandles, URLs?
What can we purchase?
Where can we buy it?
Speaker 2 (46:12):
let us know and I'm just focusing on my art, my art
practice.
It's very humbling.
It feels really inspiring.
I'm really grateful for itthank you.
Speaker 1 (46:23):
Where can we buy this stuff?
Where can we pick up our northstar?
Speaker 2 (46:28):
you can um contact um info at crenshaw dairy martorg
if you want to come check outthe bags.
They're no longer on exhibitionbut you can always contact us
and we can have a.
You can get a studio visit.
Speaker 1 (46:44):
Fantastic, so thank you so much for joining us.
I am your host, reverend DrNakia Smith-Robert, and the
Executive Director ofAbolitionist Sanctuary.
You can follow me at Nakia SRobert and at Abolitionist
Sanctuary.
You can follow me at Nakia SRobert and at Abolitionist
Sanctuary on Instagram, facebookand Twitter.
You can also sign up forexclusive updates.
Donate and support us atwwwabolitionistsanctuaryorg.
(47:07):
As we conclude this episode,remember that abolition is not a
practice, but it is a religion,and this is what we believe.
We believe in a God of theoppressed.
We believe that Black womenshare divinity with God Hagar,
harriet, sojourner, carol andcountless others who make a way
out of no way.
We believe in Black women asworthy, a source of salvation
(47:29):
and whose moral agency to make away out of no way demonstrates
the cardinal virtues ofcompassion, care, creativity,
courage and community over andagainst condemnation and
criminality.
We believe in a brownPalestinian Jew, the black
Messiah Jesus, who was profiled,policed and persecuted by the
state on trumped up charges.
We believe that Jesus died acriminal but did not wake up one
(47:53):
.
He transcended criminality onthe cross, but no one ever needs
to die for us to be saved.
We believe in spirit as advocatewho draws the least of these
femme, women, men, girls, boysand gender non-conforming people
together in a beloved community.
We believe in a resurrectionhope that calls us into right
relationship and to restore thehuman dignity of individuals who
(48:16):
are criminalized, caged andcashed out.
We affirm discipleship as acall to advance a faith-based
abolitionist movement to createspiritual, legal and economic
sanctuaries, to transform socialstructures where the last
become first and the captivesare set free, where the last
(48:36):
become first and the captivesare set free.
We are abolitionist sanctuaries, leading a coalition to repair,
restore and rebuild a more justand equitable society of
communal thriving.
Dr Najuma, thank you so muchfor being with us.
Amen, thank you.
One, two, three, four .
Welcome to the AbolitionistSanctuary Podcast, where we
bring you leading voicesconfronting issues and
interventions at theintersections of faith,
abolition and Black motherhood.
Our vision is to build afaith-based abolitionist
movement and we invite you, ourlisteners, to support and join
(00:23):
our coalition.
Abolitionist Sanctuary is anonprofit organization that
provides public education andcertified training to faith
communities, civic organizations, educational institutions and
individuals who aim to organizeagainst the moral crisis of mass
incarceration and thecriminalization of impoverished
Black motherhood.
(00:44):
I am your host, reverend DrNakia Smith-Robert, the
Executive Director ofAbolitionist Sanctuary.
You can follow me at Nakia SRobert and at Abolitionist
Sanctuary on Instagram, facebookand Twitter.
You can also sign up forexclusive updates.
Donate and support us atwwwabolitionistsanctuaryorg.
(01:09):
I am excited to welcome ourguest today, patrice Cullors,
the co-founder of Black LivesMatter, artist and abolitionist.
Hi, patrice, hi, it's sowonderful to have you here.
(01:34):
Thanks for having me.
Can you tell us your pronouns?
Yes, give us a visual of howyou're presenting yourself in
this space and tell us who areyour people.
Speaker 2 (01:48):
Yeah, my pronouns are she, hers, and I am donning a
big Afro.
I have a round face, almondshapedshaped eyes, a full nose,
full lips and I have a tattoo, aline tattoo down my chin that
(02:14):
goes down to my neck and rightabove my chest.
Speaker 1 (02:21):
Amazing, and who are your people?
Speaker 2 (02:24):
Oh, hmm, it's a good question maternal lineage and
(02:45):
the people who came from theSouth to the West thinking like
they're going to have a betterlife.
And really, you know, my greatgrandmother always says that she
left her hometown because ofthe KKK and then coming to the
(03:10):
West and experiencing lawenforcement and the impact law
enforcement had on her life andher children, her grandchildren
and her grandchildren's children.
So I'm thinking about mymaternal lineage right now.
Speaker 1 (03:32):
It's just horrific how deep and long policing has
terrorized Black communitiesfrom the earliest of ancestors
even to the present daycommunities from the earliest of
ancestors even to the presentday and I'm interested in how
you are using art as a platformfor resistance.
So can you tell us a bit aboutyour earliest recollection with
(04:00):
art and how these pivotalmoments have led to advanced
degrees, teaching in the academyand a methodology for your own
community organizing?
Speaker 2 (04:09):
Yes, I've been an artist for as long as I can
remember.
There isn't a time in my lifethat art wasn't critical,
necessary, an important medium,an important language.
And I'd say that it wasprobably, you know, when I was
(04:38):
in middle school, when Irealized that I was an artist,
that I realized that I wasdifferent, that I see the world
differently, that I see itthrough a creative and artistic
lens, and it was freeing to feelthat and experience that.
(05:01):
And then it wouldn't be untilhigh school that I'm'm
politicized and, you know,introduced to Audre Lorde and
introduced to Zora, nealeHurston and Toni Morrison, and,
then, you know, soon after that,introduced to the Panther Party
and the organizers you knowBlack organizing and I think you
(05:27):
know I remember feeling apressure to stop being an artist
and only be, you know, anorganizer.
And I remember thinking, no,that's not possible for me, I
can't live my life socompartmentalized.
And I remember using my art asa way to communicate my politics
(05:52):
and my values, and that feltlike an important evolution for
me as a younger person.
Speaker 1 (06:00):
Yeah, yeah, and I feel like that is a tool of
empire for us tocompartmentalize various
categories right and not livethe wholeness of your being.
Vogue Fashion wrote an articlefeaturing a bag collection
(06:35):
between yourself and RitaNazarino and said that it is,
quote unquote, all about freedomand inspired by quilts and
poetry.
So can you share a bit aboutyour North Star bag collection?
Speaker 2 (06:47):
Yes, rita Nazarino is an amazing designer out of the
Philippines and she is thecreative director of a
hundred-year-old workshop thatshe inherited from her
grandmother.
Um that that her grandmotherstarted uh, that was really
(07:11):
making baskets, uh, wickerbaskets.
And when she took over theworkshop, zacharias, um, she
said, I don't want to makebaskets, I want to make bags.
And started making these amazingbags and the bags.
(07:33):
I saw these bags on a friendand I said who's this?
You know what is this bag Like?
I need it.
And my friend said, oh, this is, um, you know, my good friend,
rita Nazarino, and she's a bigfan of yours.
You all should hang out.
We did, we had dinner and Iremember sitting there with her
(07:56):
and I said, you know, I said can, can we do something together?
Uh, and she was like absolutely.
And she was like absolutely.
And so you know, this has beensuch a labor of love, such an
(08:17):
important conversation for me.
How do we?
What's the intersection of art,fashion and abolition, fashion
and abolition?
And for me this was kind ofthat first project trying to
figure that out.
And Rita Nazarino's workshop iscalled Zacharias 1925, which
(08:43):
you know she says it places acontemporary thrust and the
traditional craft of handweaving, so all the bags are
hand woven.
She comes from an architecturalbackground and a contemporary
art background, so you could seethat in her work.
Look at the use of quilts andquilt making that Black
(09:05):
Americans have used, especiallyduring the Underground Railroad.
There was a, you know, a, hugequilts were this moment to kind
of like when you were part ofthe Underground Railroad to
people where to go, and therewere these symbols and
(09:27):
signatures that provided alanguage towards freedom, and so
I wanted these bags to do that.
And so I looked at the way inwhich the different stars and
symbols on quilts were, and Iwanted to put that on these bags
.
I feel like they're.
You know, if you're wearingthis bag in the world, you're
(09:50):
telling people I'm anabolitionist and we need those.
We need that.
We need like a new language inwhich we are communicating an
abolitionist presence and future.
And so I asked Nisi Berry, whois a formerly incarcerated Black
(10:15):
literary, one of my favoriteBlack poets, to provide a
signature poem for these bags.
And so on the front of the bagyou'll see these gorgeous stars,
but on the back of the bagyou'll see a leather flap where
the bag opens up, and on thatleather flap there's a poem
(10:36):
that's been lasered and it'scalled carrying freedom, and the
bags are really a conversationaround abolition and what it
looks like for Black women, andso I really wanted to work with
a Black artist a Black formerlyincarcerated artist who
(10:57):
identifies as an abolitionist,and also show her work, and so
that is the project.
I was so excited that VoguePhilippines featured it, and
there's also some exciting newsthat I can't share now about the
exhibition and the bags.
But there was an exhibitionthat launched at CDM Gallery,
(11:21):
which is the commercial galleryof the Crenshaw Dairy Mart, and
we had lots of folks visit us,including some really cool
museums, and so soon I'll tellyou the news so you can share it
with your followers ofAbolitionist Sanctuary.
But there's some really coolnews that comes out of this
(11:43):
exhibition and these bags.
Speaker 1 (11:46):
So Patrice is our strategic advisor.
She is my strategic advisor toAdolescence Sanctuary, so I'm
wondering if we could get anexclusive drop on this amazing
news that you're holding overthere.
Yes, no, not yet.
Speaker 2 (12:06):
Not yet, I can't, but I will.
I'll let y'all know first thatyou could tell the folks, and
then I'll go out wide.
Speaker 1 (12:16):
Sounds amazing.
So I love how you shared withus the aesthetic details, the
significance of symbolism andmeaning.
I saw the bag firsthand duringa protest that we were doing
together and I mean it's justit's striking Like it is so
powerful, and to see it functionin that space of resistance
(12:41):
right To materially in real life, see art work as resistance as
we are protesting, and seeingyou leading us with this bag on
your back and the symbolism thatit carries was just extremely
powerful.
I'm interested if how the NorthStar is paying homage to
(13:03):
Harriet Tubman right with thisNorth Star concept, but also
acting as a bridgeintergenerationally to inspire
future abolitionists.
How do you see that functioning?
Speaker 2 (13:16):
So, you know, I do think that we need more signs
and symbols that help identifywho's an abolitionist.
I'm thinking a lot about youknow, how divided the country is
right now.
I'm thinking a lot about who ismost vulnerable, who's being
targeted, who's beinghyper-targeted, and like what it
(13:41):
means to have symbols thatpeople know, that people know um
, okay, this is a safe person,this is a safe place.
Um, and you know, I obviouslythink about Harriet Tubman all
the time.
She's actually what inspired um.
You know some of the my earlyworks in performance art.
(14:04):
You know some of the my earlyworks in performance art, and
looking at the impact of thecounty jail system here in Los
Angeles and thinking about whatis important um for um
abolishing, uh, theincarceration system, the
carceral system in particular.
Um, she's someone who I feltlike I just I would talk to, I
(14:25):
would ideate with and ask fordownloads from her in order to
be able to make sense of what Iwas trying to do up against such
a huge, unruly, violent system.
Speaker 1 (14:42):
You know, ruthie Gilmore, in her book
Abolitionist Geography, writesabout Harriet Tubman and she
quotes she says about a storythat Harriet Tubman told and she
says I knew of a man who wassent to the state prison for 25
(15:03):
years.
All these years he was alwaysthinking of his home and
counting the time till he shouldbe free.
The years roll on, the time ofimprisonment ends over.
The man is free, he leaves theprison gates, he makes his way
to the old home.
But his old home is not there.
The house in which he had dweltin his childhood had been torn
(15:24):
down and a new one had been putin its place.
His family were gone.
Their very name was forgotten.
There was no one to take him bythe hand, to welcome him back
to life.
So it is with me.
I had crossed the line of whichI had so long been dreaming.
I was free, but there was noone to welcome me to the land of
(15:45):
freedom.
I was a stranger in a strangeland and my home, after all, was
down in the old cabin quarterwith the old folks and my
brothers and sisters.
But to this solemn resolution Icame.
I was free and they should befree also.
I will make a home for them,and Ruthie Gilmore is making
(16:07):
this connection of how abolitionis a place, and it's
interesting as we think ofabolition as geography, as place
and re-entry, right, ourbrothers and sisters, our
siblings who are coming home,sisters, our siblings who are
coming home do we have a placefor them where they can be free?
Right?
(16:32):
And I'm wondering how you seeabolition as a definition that
we can hold on to as we thinkabout creating spaces and places
for people to be free.
Speaker 2 (16:38):
Yeah, I've been thinking a lot about underground
railroad spaces, and because wedon't, because we're not free
right now and because freedom is, it's unclear when it's coming.
But what we can do is createspaces of freedom I like to call
(17:04):
them freedom portals and reallylooking at what kind of
institutions, collectives,businesses, physical spaces
we're creating that give peoplethose moments of freedom, those
moments of breath, people, thosemoments of freedom, those
moments of breath.
I imagine our ancestors, youknow, leaving plantations,
(17:36):
fleeing them and getting tounderground railroad homes and
businesses and spaces and havingthat just moment to breathe and
what that must have felt liketo be able to regulate your
nervous system just for a bit oftime, before you had to go back
out in the world and the unfreeplaces to find the next
Underground Railroad space, tofinally get to a free state or a
free country.
(17:56):
That's where we're at right now.
If our people are unable towalk down streets without being
murdered, if our people areunable to live their lives and
then end up being kidnapped bylaw enforcement and taken off to
prison or jail without dueprocess, if a rumor can be made
(18:23):
up and spread across right-wingmedia and create, you know,
misinformation anddisinformation for community
members and leaders and folksare left, you know, with the
fallout of that.
Speaker 1 (18:39):
We're not free, and so freedom right now looks like
creating those spaces, thoseunderground railroad spaces gave
(19:04):
me an informal guided tour hepastors a church in Kansas City,
kansas an informal guided tourto one of the last destinations
on the Underground Railroadcrossing from, I believe,
missouri into Kansas, because Ithink Missouri is one of the
last states to be emancipatedand Kansas was free and we stood
there overlooking the horizonsand seeing in the shadows the
(19:29):
open land that the slaves, ourAfrican ancestors, traversed to
get to freedom right, and one ofthe key organizations in
preserving that ground and I'mnot going to say it right, I
think it's Quintero, but I'msure I'm wrong and I'll have to
circle back to that name but theAME church was essential in
(19:52):
preserving that site and I thinkabout the role of churches as
stops along the UndergroundRailroad, and Harriet Tubman
herself belonged to the AME ZionChurch right and Mother Bethel
in Philly still preserves as amuseum artifacts as a stop of
the Underground Railroad, and sochurches played an instrumental
(20:16):
role right within theabolitionist movement.
I also worked with anotherorganization in New Jersey and
we created a toolkit on policeaccountability, and what was
fascinating about some of theresearch that they did is that
they looked at all of thechurches Black churches who were
involved in a stop on theUnderground Railroad.
So that's data that is usefulfor you.
(20:38):
I'm happy to get that to you.
Speaker 2 (20:40):
I would love that.
That's really powerful.
Speaker 1 (20:44):
Absolutely, so we'll get that to you.
I'm happy to get that to you.
I would love that.
That's really powerful.
Absolutely, so we'll get thatto you.
And that toolkit is availablepublicly, so we'll be sure to
get that to you.
But this role of faith andabolition right and the ways in
which the church was involved inthe Underground Railroad and
Ablish's movement, can you tellus about your own faith system,
(21:06):
your faith beliefs and how ithas evolved from your younger
days as a Jehovah's Witness towhere you are traveling across
the diaspora with Africanreligious traditions?
What is the role of faith andhow does it inform your sense of
freedom as a place?
Speaker 2 (21:25):
faith and how does it inform your sense of freedom as
a place?
Faith is critical for me.
I grew up Jehovah's Witness anda really you know Jehovah's
Witness family.
I think probably by my teenageyears I was like this isn't the
tradition for me and it wasreally clear that I was looking
for indigenous spiritualtechnology.
I felt it inside of me.
(21:46):
I felt a deep longing forindigenous spiritual technology
and wisdom and did a deep dive,did a search.
You know, where is my people?
Where is our lineage?
What have we done?
(22:17):
How do I hold that space?
You know Black man who had hadhis own journey around Western
tradition and colonialism'simpact on his people from
Burkina Faso, and he wrote manybooks.
(22:38):
But the book that transformedmy life was the Healing Wisdom
of Africa.
One of my good friendsintroduced it to our little
community of Black queer womenand I read that book and I said,
ok, I want to find thistradition and I need to find
traditions that really makesense for me.
(22:58):
I went and met with Mali Doma afew times.
I went and met with Malidoma afew times.
I got to get a divination fromhim before he passed away.
That was really powerful.
But then I would find Ifa, thetradition of the Yoruba people.
And in that experience, infinding Ifa, I found myself.
(23:23):
I got to reclaim myself, mylineage, my ancestors, and not
just my ancestors here and onTurtle Island, but my ancestors
from the western shores ofAfrica, and so that has been a
(23:49):
game changer for me.
I've been in the tradition nowfor 20 years, almost 20 years,
and that's wild.
I've been initiated for almost15 years, um, you know, 13 to 15
(24:10):
years, uh and it's been a avery, very, very important part
of my identity.
That until up until recently Iwould say, maybe these last
several months I have months Ihave an exhibition right now at
a gallery called the CharlieJames Gallery that looks at the
(24:31):
Odu Ifa in my tradition.
It's not until recently whereI'm being much more open about
my spiritual practice.
Speaker 1 (24:40):
I love it.
You know I'm teaching a coursecalled African Religions and
Politics for AbolitionistFutures.
That's right.
And yeah, it's a fire course,patrice, like it's fire.
I love that we're using Malawias a case study.
We're working with a womannamed Ida Puliwa in Malawi and
(25:05):
she's doing phenomenalabolitionist work through
empowering her village to beself-sustaining against the
patriarchy of chiefs who toldher that she can't do it because
she's just a girl.
And she is providing literacyprograms, agriculture, health,
(25:25):
education around cervical cancerand HIV AIDS.
And it all started with herasking kind of a mutual aid
mechanism, asking her village togive seven cents to volunteer,
and they pooled their resourcestogether to become
self-sustaining.
And they pooled their resourcestogether to become
self-sustaining.
And it made me think, afterhearing her story, what is
instructive from the Africandiaspora for global abolitionist
(25:49):
futures?
Right, and so we began to lookat the role of religion in that.
So the role of voodlé andLukumi and Santaria and the
Orishas and the Orishas'connection to Black power
movements that we don't reallytalk about, right, and so what's
(26:13):
beautiful about Africanindigenous religions is that
there is no partition betweenthe religious and the political.
That's right.
Right, it is one system and sothere is no partition between
the religious and the political.
That's right.
Right, it is one system and sothere is no choice to be a
bystander for injustices.
Right, and the role of gender,that women in Candomblé are more
(26:36):
susceptible to divination thanmen.
Right, and so we're reading.
I offer this book to you byDiane Stewart.
It's two volumes and I have toget that to you, but she's doing
a lot of work with the Orishasand Obeah and Trinidad and its
connection to politics and Blackpower movements.
(26:59):
That's phenomenal work.
So thank you for sharing therole of your religious systems
to abolition and freedom, and sothis call for abolition has
been deeply personal for you andthe ways in which carceral
systems have negatively affectedfamily members who are justice
(27:19):
impacted, including your dad.
Rest in peace.
Your cousin Kenan Anderson,rest in peace, and your brother
Right.
Tell us, how are you findinghealing in art to cope and find
well-being amidststate-sponsored violence and
carceral terror?
Speaker 2 (27:39):
Oh man, I mean honestly, it's the healing
justice work.
Of so many people who havecalled for healing justice Early
on.
I think a lot about Cara Page,who coined the term healing
justice, who just wrote a bookcalled Healing Justice Lineages.
But you know, when I startedorganizing, I remember having to
(28:07):
go to these board meetings andtell these board people how
awful the conditions were andthe impact on my life.
And seeing people ignore me andignore the community that I was
with and walk out the door ortalk to their staff and the
(28:33):
dehumanization that youexperience when you're
advocating for yourself and yourpeople, um is really painful.
And so when I started myorganization, the first
organization started Dignity andPower.
Now, uh, that has now beenaround for 12 years.
Its primary focus is to take onthe Los Angeles County jail
system and to organizecommunities who've been directly
(28:55):
impacted by share of violence.
I was like I don't want to dothis in a way that
re-traumatizes the community andI want to make sure that we
have healing justice servicesfor the people who we are asking
to tell their stories every dayas an act of courage.
(29:17):
It's an act of courage to tellthat story every time you go to
a board meeting, knowing thatthese people may or may not
listen to you, and so thehealing justice work was
critical for me to have be apillar, and so you'll see it as
pretty much all theorganizations, all the
businesses that I have createdestablished been a part of
(29:42):
founding healing and healingjustice is at the center of it,
at the center of them, and thenmy own personal practice.
I'm a deep believer of therapy.
You know, in 2018, when myfirst book was published by
Memoir, one of the first thingsthat I said to the media was
(30:04):
firstly, black people needreparations, and part of our
reparations package should be acompetent therapist for every
single black person.
In perpetuity, we needconsistent and perpetual care
(30:25):
for the harm that this place hasdone to us and continues to do
to us every single day.
You don't undo years and yearsof violence, racism.
Through a couple therapeuticsessions, I think a lot about
(30:46):
the impact physical illness hason black people.
You can get you know a blackperson who's the healthiest.
You know raw vegan, you knowtaking care of their bodies,
working out.
And then you know a whiteperson who is living in middle
America not eating well and lookat their health status and that
(31:11):
white person is going tooutlive the black person simply
because of racism, simplybecause of living in a violent
system that doesn't take care ofour bodies.
Think about maternal health care.
They say that black wealthymoms have worse maternal
outcomes than white poor womenbecause of a racist system,
(31:35):
because of all the years ofmedical neglect.
Before you get pregnant andhave a child, it doesn't matter
that you're wealthy, and so Ithink about that a lot as we're
talking about health and healing, what that will take.
It's not a personalresponsibility, although the
wellness sort of industry willsay it's your personal
responsibility to take care ofyourself.
(31:55):
No, I don't believe inself-care, I believe in
collective care.
I believe in the care of humanbeings through systems.
We need systemic care.
Speaker 1 (32:10):
Yeah, I was trying to find a reference my student had
gave me from his psych courses.
There's a formal diagnosis thatwas given to slaves for their
fugivity that they would think aslave wanting to run away from
slavery somehow was an act ofinsanity.
And certainly that's not themental health care that we're
(32:47):
calling for A decolonial mentalhealth care that heals and not
harm right, yeah, I'm just gonna.
Speaker 2 (32:56):
I looked it up Drapedomania was a supposed
mental illness that an 1851American physician, samuel A
Cartwright, hypothesized as thecause of enslaved Africans
fleeing captivity.
Speaker 1 (33:13):
Yes, that's it.
And there was another one too.
I can't find my notes fromclass last week, but yes, that's
it.
And it's insane to think thatwe're crazy and losing our mind
for wanting to be free andescape slavocracy.
And that's how society works,right?
That's how the hegemonicimagination works.
(33:34):
It's always to construct us asbestial, as animalistic, as
non-being, non-human in all theways psychologically,
emotionally, mentally,physically, aesthetically, right
To somehow cancel us right inthat way.
So you mentioned aboutreproductive justice, and you're
(34:00):
also a mother and I'm wonderingif you could share a bit.
How has it been to midwife amovement while also giving birth
to your child?
And as a mom right, what canyou tell us about midwifing a
movement and giving birth toyour own child?
And and how is your motheringum a way for you yourself to
(34:26):
cultivate, to nurture um thenext generation of abolitionists
?
Speaker 2 (34:34):
It's a good question.
I feel like I'm stillprocessing that question.
Okay, I feel like it's, youknow, the I think, back being
pregnant and the height has been.
There'll be many heights andmoments in our movements, but,
(34:56):
you know, I gave birth to mychild in 2016 and that was the
you know year of Alton Sterlingand Philando Castile, and I see
images of me.
It was, you know, two monthsmaybe after my pregnancy, I had
(35:22):
a.
I had an emergency C-sectionwhen I was, like in the streets,
you know, um, marching, and Iliterally cannot, I like cannot
believe I was, like you know,spending hours and hours in the
streets marching, um, given thatmy body was still trying to
heal from major surgery.
(35:44):
Um, I talk about activism andorganizing a lot as black people
, as you know, there's this ideathat black people just love to
be fighting for our lives on thefront lines, right?
So it's sort of a romantic ideaabout that, and I'll say that
many of us would rather bemaking art being with our
(36:06):
families cooking, being free,smelling the grass, frolicking,
gardening there's all thesethings in which Making love,
making love.
All these things in which ourlife would look different if we
didn't have to fight for it allthe time Right.
(36:29):
So many of us are courageousenough to fight for Black lives
and be a part of the lineagethat is the fight for Black
lives.
But I'll also say that I can'twait for a day where we don't
have to do it, where we can livefull, healthy, thriving lives.
Speaker 1 (37:04):
We don't have to call another family member and tell
them that loved one has beenkilled and walk them through the
process, where we don't have tobe the person experiencing our
loved one being killed andhaving to walk our loved ones
through the process of healing.
I look forward to that day.
We deserve that day we do Tolive long lives and become
elders and venerated ancestorsin the fullness of life.
Right, you have given so much,you have sacrificed so much for
(37:29):
this movement and I'm not surepeople understand the gravity
that comes with that, and so Ipersonally, every time I've seen
you and I've known you for morethan 10 years now give you my
deep appreciation for all thatyou have given and courageously
stood up for our democracy, forour country, for our communities
(37:51):
, for us to live, and in yourco-leadership role of pioneering
one of the most powerfulmovement in the history of Black
struggle.
What are some of yourreflections, revelations and
insights about the importance ofvalidating the Black Lives
Matter, but also protectingBlack women like yourself?
Speaker 2 (38:14):
Oh man, that's another one.
I'm still processing.
Speaker 1 (38:17):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (38:20):
I'll say that none of us were prepared for the level
of Black backlash that we'dexperience at the hands of white
racism, although we all knowabout it so well, we've read
about it, we've heard about it.
I think abolition, more deepstudy and practice with
abolitionist values will helpthis generation and the next
(38:45):
generation of organizers,activists in the fight for Black
lives.
We need to think about the waysto protect Black women more in
our work.
There is a deep need tore-evaluate all of our
relationship to social media,yes, and which we've allowed for
(39:08):
social media to become theplace where we believe what's on
it, especially misinformation,disinformation, especially Black
people.
When I saw Black peoplespreading the misinformation and
disinformation about me onlineand it wasn't digital Blackface,
(39:29):
because I know what's a bot andwhat's not that's when I was
most disappointed.
Also, that's when I was like,oh they, they, they've won.
Um, I, I just finished, I.
I every now and again go backand watch malcolm spikey's
malcolm x stunning film and Iremember um, you know all these
(39:52):
news articles that he wasreading about himself, about the
honorable elijah muhammad, and,and there's just this beautiful
conversation that he was havingand you know he wasn't using
the terms misinformation,disinformation.
But he was saying, like this isthe same newspaper that, um, uh
, you know this is a whitesupremacist newspaper, this is
(40:15):
white-led media and you have tobe really conscious of that.
So, yeah, I think you know somedeeper conversations about the
role of social media and therole it's played in upending
social movements.
I think we need to talk about,you know, racist algorithms.
(40:39):
Sophia Noble's work has beenprofound and really having this
conversation about racistalgorithms, I'm really
interested in the new technology, not because I'm interested in
using it, necessarily, but I'minterested in what role it's
(41:04):
going to play and creating moremisinformation and
disinformation and how we arereally ignorant on how to read
that.
You know, I've had to tell alot of my cousins because they
are getting trolled because ofme, after my cousin's death,
after Kenan's death to teachthem what's a bot, what's a real
(41:25):
person, what's not, what'sworth arguing with, what's not.
But the point is that socialmedia has created a space for
the division of this country tokeep being more and more divided
.
That's on purpose and if wedon't understand that and if we
are not able to create newpathways to challenge the
(41:47):
algorithm, we're going to letthis current COINTELPRO moment
really create a lot of havoc.
Speaker 1 (41:59):
Yes, yeah, and I'm happy that there are a lot of
scholars, or increasingly morescholars, who are dealing with
AI and algorithms from adecolonial lens and perspective.
I know there's someone at USC,a guy there that I met, who was
(42:20):
doing similar work.
But you're right, right, like,information for so long has been
used, or misinformation, tosabotage leaders and movements,
and the technology has justchanged movements, and the
technology has just changed,right, but it's all a form of
surveillance, right?
That's right, yeah, and so itis what Foucault called the
(42:42):
panopticon.
It is right, these systems ofpower that are working, and
we've seen the rise of it withTrump.
Right, even more so this use offake news and misinformation,
and we have to be vigilant.
We have to be vigilant, right,and we knew it in the 90s when
they said don't believe the hype, right Period.
(43:10):
And so I know we had somereally difficult questions and
many that you are stillprocessing.
So thank you for just openingyourself in this space.
I want to talk about what doyou do to find joy.
What do you do to find joy?
Speaker 2 (43:24):
Yeah, I hang out with my kid a lot.
I love being in community withmy friends and family.
I love cooking, making food.
Speaker 1 (43:41):
When my name get in that pot.
Speaker 2 (43:43):
I got you.
Sorry for the vegans, but I'mworking on an oxtail Oxtail
vibes.
I know I'm ready, i'm'm ready.
I've never made them, but I'mready to do it what girl I'm
gonna have to give you therecipes.
Let me tell you, I can throwdown too, so we might have to
(44:04):
have that's right somepotlucking, I'm down, um uh yeah
, I love being in nature and Ilove listening to music really
loud and dancing my ass off Allthose things.
Speaker 1 (44:23):
I love it.
I love it, I love it.
Well, and who keeps youaccountable to these things that
give you joy and make sure thatyou're not working from a
deficit but finding your cupoverflowing?
Who?
Speaker 2 (44:35):
holds you accountable or what I got a, I got a crew,
I got a crew that holds meaccountable and I really
appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (44:44):
Awesome, as we conclude this talk um the what
would you call it, but what wedid in the name of Kenan
Anderson?
A performance protest, aperformance protest.
Tell us about that.
Give us the vision and theimagery of that day.
Speaker 2 (45:01):
Yeah, I worked with Beyonce's choreographer, Jaquel
Knight, who choreographed anddirected a performance protest
to lift up my cousin, KenanAnderson, who was killed at a
traffic stop by.
LAPD, but also so many otherBlack people killed at traffic
stops across the country, and itwas just a moment to challenge
(45:23):
the current art world.
There's a huge fair calledFreeze that happens here in Los
Angeles.
It happened in Santa Monica,seven minutes away from where my
cousin was killed.
Not a single person a part ofFreeze connected with me,
knowing that I'm a part of theart world, asked me questions,
asked me how they could support,and I really wanted to
(45:46):
challenge their audience andtheir base to look at what's
happening right next door.
Speaker 1 (45:53):
Yeah, it was a powerful demonstration.
It was picked up by the NewYork Times.
It was a powerful demonstration.
Well, sis, thank you so muchfor being with us today.
Is there any way that we couldsupport you?
Anything you want to drophandles, URLs?
What can we purchase?
Where can we buy it?
Speaker 2 (46:12):
let us know and I'm just focusing on my art, my art
practice.
It's very humbling.
It feels really inspiring.
I'm really grateful for itthank you.
Speaker 1 (46:23):
Where can we buy this stuff?
Where can we pick up our northstar?
Speaker 2 (46:28):
you can um contact um info at crenshaw dairy martorg
if you want to come check outthe bags.
They're no longer on exhibitionbut you can always contact us
and we can have a.
You can get a studio visit.
Speaker 1 (46:44):
Fantastic, so thank you so much for joining us.
I am your host, reverend DrNakia Smith-Robert, and the
Executive Director ofAbolitionist Sanctuary.
You can follow me at Nakia SRobert and at Abolitionist
Sanctuary.
You can follow me at Nakia SRobert and at Abolitionist
Sanctuary on Instagram, facebookand Twitter.
You can also sign up forexclusive updates.
Donate and support us atwwwabolitionistsanctuaryorg.
(47:07):
As we conclude this episode,remember that abolition is not a
practice, but it is a religion,and this is what we believe.
We believe in a God of theoppressed.
We believe that Black womenshare divinity with God Hagar,
harriet, sojourner, carol andcountless others who make a way
out of no way.
We believe in Black women asworthy, a source of salvation
(47:29):
and whose moral agency to make away out of no way demonstrates
the cardinal virtues ofcompassion, care, creativity,
courage and community over andagainst condemnation and
criminality.
We believe in a brownPalestinian Jew, the black
Messiah Jesus, who was profiled,policed and persecuted by the
state on trumped up charges.
We believe that Jesus died acriminal but did not wake up one
(47:53):
.
He transcended criminality onthe cross, but no one ever needs
to die for us to be saved.
We believe in spirit as advocatewho draws the least of these
femme, women, men, girls, boysand gender non-conforming people
together in a beloved community.
We believe in a resurrectionhope that calls us into right
relationship and to restore thehuman dignity of individuals who
(48:16):
are criminalized, caged andcashed out.
We affirm discipleship as acall to advance a faith-based
abolitionist movement to createspiritual, legal and economic
sanctuaries, to transform socialstructures where the last
become first and the captivesare set free, where the last
(48:36):
become first and the captivesare set free.
We are abolitionist sanctuaries, leading a coalition to repair,
restore and rebuild a more justand equitable society of
communal thriving.
Dr Najuma, thank you so muchfor being with us.
Amen, thank you.
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