S3: E1 Sinners

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:11):
Welcome to the Abolitionist Sanctuary podcast.
I am your host, reverend DrNakia Smith-Robert.
This is the podcast where weconsider critical conversations
and call to actions at theintersections of religion,
abolition and Black motherhood.
As the founder of AbolitionistSanctuary, our mission is to

(00:32):
train Black-serving churches,educational institutions and
civic organizations to uniteagainst the moral crisis of mass
incarceration and thecriminalization of impoverished
Black motherhood.
Thank you to our audio andvisual audience for joining us
on YouTube, facebook andInstagram and all other
streaming platforms.

(00:52):
Please share this podcast andinvite others to listen and
watch with you.
I'm so excited for our episode.
This is the premiere of seasonthree.
We are back with a bang withexciting guests, and I am elated
to welcome our three guests.

(01:14):
So allow me time forintroductions, but we have Ia Dr
Funayo E Wood, who is a scholarpractitioner of Africana
religions, specializing in theIfa Orisha tradition.
She is the founding director ofthe African and Diasporic
Religious Studies Association,chief priestess and also chief

(01:39):
priestess and so.
Dr Woods holds a PhD in Africanand African-American studies
and the study of religion fromHarvard University, and her work
has been published in academicand popular venues, including
the Journal of Africana Studiesand the Review of Religious
Research, affectionately knownas your favorite scholar

(02:27):
priestess.
Dr Wood is a dedicated publicscholar who lectures frequently
religious studies.
With a PhD in religion in theAfrican-American religion
concentration from RiceUniversity.
She embarked on her academicpursuits by obtaining a BA in
religious studies from AlmaCollege in Alma, michigan.
Furthering her education, drDeanna earned a Master of
Divinity and a Master ofTheology from Union Presbyterian

(02:48):
Seminary in Richmond, virginia.
She also expanded her expertiseby earning a Master of Arts in
American Studies, accompanied bya graduate certificate in Women
, gender and Sexuality Studiesfrom Lehigh University in
Bethlehem, pennsylvania.
Studies from Lehigh Universityin Bethlehem, pennsylvania.
She earned a Master of Arts inReligion from Rice University.

(03:09):
Dr Deanna's dedication andscholarly achievements have been
recognized through herappointment as the 2022-23 Forum
for Theological EducationDoctoral Fellow.
Additionally, dr Deanna washonored with a 2022 Honorary
Dissertation Fellowship from theLouisville Institute.

(03:31):
We also have Dr CandiceLaughinghouse.
Dr Candice Laughinghouse is anAssistant Professor of Theology
at Gammon Theological Seminaryand the director of music,
uniquely blending her dualpassions for theology and music.
Her scholarship spanstheological ethics, interfaith

(03:53):
traditions, indigenous cosmology, eco-womanism and animal rights
.
For over a decade, she hasintegrated her expertise in both
fields, embodying a rarecombination of trained
theologian and accomplishedmusician.
What sets Dr Laughinghouseapart, especially relevant to

(04:16):
this panel's discussion of thefilm Sinners, is her lived
experiences as both a theologianand a musician with the
Pentecostal Church Kojic.
Her family's rich musicalheritage includes collaborations
with iconic artists such as theHawkins family, pastor Andre

(04:36):
Crouch, the Clark sisters,bishop Rance, allen, al Green,
tony Tony Tone, frankly, beverlyand Mayaze Eric Benet, and many
others.
Through her research andpractice, dr Laughinghouse
supports congregations andoffers spiritual formation to
musicians across diverse genres,fostering healing, resilience

(04:59):
and connection through thesacred power of music.
Welcome to our guests.
I am excited to have you guys onour fourth anniversary of
Abolitionist Sanctuary In 2021,juneteenth.

(05:22):
We founded AbolitionistSanctuary.
Our logo is a Black presentingwoman with an, our anniversary
and also the relaunch of seasonthree of our podcast.

(05:51):
So I've already spoken enough.
I would love to hear from youguys.
Please tell us your pronouns,how you are presenting visually
in this space, what are youwearing, what makes up your
physical space, etc.
And who are your people?
Okay, and then finally, how areyou celebrating Juneteenth?

(06:15):
So we'll start with Iyafunayoand then Dr Diana and Dr Candice
.

Speaker 2 (06:30):
Deanna and Dr Candice .
Oh, blessed greetings.
I am certainly honored to behere.
Greetings to my fellowpanelists and Dr Nakia.
It's an honor.
I will share the fun fact thatDr Nakia and I have known each
other since we were children,and so it is always really
beautiful to be able to do ouradult work in the world together
, particularly to be heretogether on Juneteenth.

(06:51):
I am decked out in white asusual.
White cloth holds sacrednesswithin the Orisha tradition, and
particularly the DivinityObatala, to whom I'm dedicated,
and it represents unblemishedcharacter, clarity and calmness
and peace, and so I always aimto bring those characteristics

(07:13):
into any space that I inhabit.
Also got my juju rocking myelephant, my high John the
Conqueror, and I'm here in myhome office and shrine room.
So I pray that all of thebeautiful energy of the
ancestors and the divinityshines through to everyone who
is listening.
As far as my people them, I amdescended from Virginia and

(07:36):
South Carolina, richmond, gullahGeechee, you know I'm
African-American through andthrough, a Hoodoo practitioner,
in addition to being an Orishapriestess, also descended from
the Catawba people of SouthCarolina, and so I'm just
grateful for all of thosebeautiful lineages and looking

(07:58):
forward to a wonderfulconversation tonight.

Speaker 1 (08:02):
Thank you so much, sis Harlem represent.

Speaker 2 (08:05):
Yes, so in the building.
Oh, and I'll say too that I'vebeen celebrating Juneteenth
really by.
I just cleaned the shrine roomtop to bottom, mopped and swept
and, you know, lit candles anddid all the beautiful things to
honor the ancestors.
So grateful.

Speaker 1 (08:21):
Ashe Dr Deanna.

Speaker 3 (08:25):
Hi, so I echo those sentiments.
Thank you so much for having me.
This is a wonderful opportunity.
I'm super excited for theconversation.
My pronouns are she, her, hers,and currently I am wearing
black.
I'm usually in some form ofblack.
I think that is the monster inme that loves to wear black, and
not like an emo, negative senseof it, but I think of it as
celebratory because I ampro-black, everything, even down

(08:46):
to my clothes.
I'm also wearing my rose quartzankh just to ground me and keep
me present, as always, and rightnow I'm in a transitionary
space.
I am in Newark, even though Iam currently located in Tucson.
I'm staying with family, so I'min my father's office space and
so it is blurred becausethere's a lot of things going on

(09:07):
.
But we show up wherever we canand when we can, and this
Juneteenth was a bit slow for me.
I just kind of sat with thespirits and I watched horror
films and I watched Sinners onemore time, just for memory's
sake and to honor that space.

Speaker 1 (09:23):
Thank you, dr.
Candice.

Speaker 4 (09:26):
Hello everyone.
My pronouns are she, her, hers,and you said who are our people
, even though my people, as faras like where I was born and
raised, is in Oakland,california.
Even my grandmother was born inOakland.
There's not many you know beingborn there, although my family

(09:47):
beyond that did transition therefrom Mississippi, oklahoma and
as far back we had a relative tothe family genealogy on my
mother's father's side fromAlbemarle, south Carolina.
In fact, they ended up namingmy oldest daughter after the
furthest living relative that wecould find her.
Both her parents were from themotherland, but she was renamed

(10:10):
Ariana and that's how I chosethat name.
And then on my dad's side, Iactually found out for all you
Northeasters, my grandfather wasborn in Manhattan, so there's a
lot of the webs up there fromNew York, um, where I've been
visiting the past uh, couple ofmonths, uh, in New York, new
Jersey, uh, and as far as whatI'm wearing, um, I've been

(10:32):
traveling a lot since beginningof June, so this is about as
decent I could do.
I mean I, okay, the purple gota little.
Woman is purple, uh, a little.
This is no thought in puttingthis, because I just have a lot
going on the space I'm in itlooks like Vacation Bible School
or something around here,because I'm at a church.

(10:52):
We have a rehearsal, but I toldthem.
I said you all have to dosomething a little bit before.
So that's where I'm at and I'mreally excited to be a part of
this.

Speaker 1 (11:03):
Amazing, amazing.
My pronouns also are she, hers,and I am wearing red African
earrings that has the continentthere inscribed, and I also have
a red lipstick.
I have this big hair.
I'm channeling my Beyonce, Ibelieve, and I'm wearing a black

(11:28):
Abolitionist Sanctuary t-shirt.
You can go to our swag store atabolitionistsanctuaryorg and
order yours, and in my backdropI have my beloved city.
It is by significance that weare taping live from Harlem, new
York.
Harlem is where my people arefrom, particularly a poor,

(11:50):
single Black mother whosometimes bent rules and broke
laws to provide for herself andher family against unjust
systems.
Abolitionist sanctuary, and whywe are doing the work that we do
to shift the narrative, toadvocate for poor Black mothers

(12:11):
and move away from individualblame to instead interrogate and
dismantle the oppressivesystems and structures that make
survival nearly impossible,because no one should be
punished for merely trying tosurvive.
So, thank you so much, and I'mcelebrating Juneteenth by having
the honor of having the threeof you as my guests, so let's
hop right in.
Ok, shall we?
So, in the spirit of Juneteenth, a prominent theme of the film

(12:36):
Sinners is freedom, even if onlyfor one night, only for one
night.
What would one day of freedomlook like for you?
What does that one day offreedom look like for us?
What kind of freedom do we need, dr Foligno, and then Dr Deanna
and Dr Candice?

Speaker 2 (12:58):
That's such an important question because we
know that, particularly on thisday, because we know that,
particularly on this day,thinking about freedom and the
ways that we continue to getfree.
You know, for me, I am blessedthat I have cultivated my life
in such a way that I feel free.
I feel free when I'm connectingwith my people, leading the

(13:21):
organizations that I lead andteaching those who I teach, and
so there's a big level offreedom in that for me, in
connecting with myself as anAfrican descendant, as a child
of this land, and I think thatfor all of us, you know, freedom
looks like coming to knowourselves and appreciate

(13:42):
ourselves and value ourselves,because I recently said on
another broadcast that I was on,that it's really important, as
we talk about freedom andliberation, to recognize that a
big part of getting there isfeeling ourselves worthy of it,

(14:05):
understanding why we should notbe bound in some of the ways
that we've been bound, and soit's really important for me in
my work towards freedom, toremind us of our intrinsic and
inherent value, and that makesme feel free every day.

Speaker 1 (14:17):
Yes, yes, yes.
I love that, dr Deanna.

Speaker 3 (14:22):
So for me, freedom is unpredictability.
So a day of freedom would bejust being able to lean into the
vastness of choice and not belimited or placed in boundaries,
right Consenting always, butalways mutating and shifting.
And so for me, a day of freedomwould look like my ADHD brain,
where in which everything I wantto dabble in I can, without

(14:44):
limitation, without fear,without anxiety, but also with
self-awareness and in community.
I don't want to be alone when Ido this.
So a day of freedom for mewould be choice with the people,
with the folk, and so that'show I would lean into that,
because that's not given to usvery often.

Speaker 1 (15:01):
Thank you.
I appreciate that To me, you'rebringing in our ancestor, Katie
Geneva Cannon, the ways inwhich Black women are given
limited options, right andfreedom being the antithesis of
that being an abundance ofoptions.
Thank you so much, Dr Candicehas to begin with my mind.

Speaker 4 (15:27):
Um, because I, I remember I finally saw this.
There was a clip circlingaround um of um y'all been
traveling, my brain just left me, oh goodness.
Okay, rapper of the revolutioncannot be televised.
Come on my brain the last poetsyeah, so um no, but who's
specific?
anyway, he was.
It was an interview and he saidwillie, meant by the revolution

(15:48):
, cannot be televised.
The last poets, as we all know,as Black women that I will
definitely advocate that thesesurrounding spaces are toxic,

(16:10):
are not free.
But my freedom has to start inmy mind, and so for me it is
coming from a place of movingbeyond beliefs.
I heard somebody say within theword, belief is the word lie.
There's so many differentbeliefs, but we have to get to
be living, and so when I amliving and I, that means that

(16:30):
involves me manifestingabundance within my mind,
knowing that God, the divinesource, is not only going to
give me opportunities but I haveto rest in that, the provisions
being provided.
That's freedom for me, becauseI'm free from all of these other
ways of thinking that will haveme not understanding who I am

(16:54):
in God's image.
So that's freedom has to startin my mind first.

Speaker 1 (16:59):
That's powerful.

Speaker 4 (17:00):
I think that's what happened with our ancestors,
that freedom had to start intheir mind.
With all that was going on,even while they were being, you
know, being tortured and all ofthose things, the freedom
started in their mind.
That's what freedom looks likefor me.

Speaker 1 (17:15):
Thank you so much.
That is powerful that the wordbelieve also has the word lie
Right, and that's really, reallypowerful.
So I want our listeners, if youare streaming in on Facebook or
Instagram or YouTube, to takethis moment, write in the chat
what would a one day of freedomlook like for you?

(17:37):
And I also want you to take amoment to invite your friends
and to share this live with yournetwork so that we can have
more people listening in andsharing with us.
And just a disclaimer as wemove forward, we are here to
talk about the movie Sinners,which I view, as a religious

(17:59):
scholar, as a deeply theologicalproject.
And we have joined with usleading thinkers within
religious studies, and so,before we move any forward, this
is your out.
There will be spoilers.
Okay, we will be talking aboutthe nitty gritty of the movie
Sinners by Ryan Coogler.

(18:21):
So if you have not seen Sinners, I invite you to catch this
when you do on recording.
But if you have stay with usfor a while and join in on the
conversation.
So in the movie Sinners, sammy'sone day of freedom was to spend
a day outside of the church,and I think this is remarkable

(18:43):
because the Black church is bornout of this struggle for
freedom.
Right that in many ways, whenyou look at the history of the
Black church, it is synonymouswith the word freedom, right?
What does it mean for Sammy toseek his day of freedom outside
of the church?
And how has the churchcontributed, not to our freedom

(19:06):
but to our bondage?
And what in churches do we needto be freed from?
What was the one night offreedom and the why was the one
night of freedom in the church?
I mean, why was the one nightof freedom in the juke joint and
not the church?
So multiple layers there but,essentially, the church here

(19:28):
seems to signify the antithesisof freedom for Sammy that
instead was suspended at thejuke joint.
Why is that?
What is it about?
The church is a source ofbondage.

Speaker 4 (19:41):
I'll start with the fact that I saw, because, like
you said, the church is a placeof freedom During that era.
It is a place of freedom as faras expression.
They had spaces where they could, you know, operate within their
musical gifts singing, clappinglet's talk about the freedom of
clapping outside of themainline denominations of beats

(20:05):
and syncopations and not havingto be stuck with the hymns.
So that was a place to feel.
But for for sammy, the freedomum was also an opportunity for
him to extend freedom as far ashis artistic craft um, and so
what does that mean?
That meant for him?
Like, like that particularscene where you saw all the

(20:25):
different genres of music, eventhough all those different
genres of music, we know, are,you know, rooted within
Africanism.
I know from growing up in aBlack Pentecostal setting how,
you know, I was told you don'tplay that other music, although
my particular church was alsokind of tried it for bringing in
the joint instruments like theelectric guitar.

(20:46):
My grandfather played electricguitar and and the Hawaiian
guitar, the steel guitar, youknow, in many places that was
like, not sanctified, should Isay.
So I understood Sammy's questand interest to get outside and
I think that was more of anartistic expression outside.
And I think that was more of anartistic expression and I think

(21:08):
once we do that as artists notjust musicians but artists
period, there are going to besome cuts and bruises when we
get out there, but there's afull totality of our gifts that
we can then explore.
So that freedom for him that Isaw was artistic, because we
also saw there's some things hedidn't let go of from the church
, that he knew about, thatprayer, that understanding of

(21:29):
things.
So I think it is important thatwe just like I mean I
understand we're finitecreatures, we like to say this
or that, but I think that, toyour question, the freedom for
Sammy was artistic and gettingout there and he didn't have to
let go of his identity when hewas out there, and that's
something that I think isimportant.

Speaker 1 (21:49):
Thank you for that.

Speaker 2 (21:51):
I'd like to jump in and address the question and
thank you for that, dr Candaceabout you know why the church
may be seen as a place ofbondage right as opposed to a
place of freedom, and I thinkthat it's a double-edged sword.
I think that, in the same waysthat it has represented freedom
for us, it has also representedbondage in the sense of being

(22:15):
disconnected from our ancestraltraditions or at least nominally
disconnected, because I alwayssay the Black in the Black
church is African right, thecall, and Black in the Black
church is.
African right, the call andresponse, the exuberance of the
way we pray, our spiritpossession with the.
Holy Spirit, anointing oils andthe hats and all of these things
praise, dancing harken back toour African cultures, but we

(22:38):
were largely programmed in manyways against them and to believe
that anything that was notwithin those walls of the church
was not sanctified, was notholy, was even devilish if we
wanted to go to the most extreme.
And so there is a way thatpeople, including myself right,
have felt constrained and judgedand like they could only exist

(23:04):
within a particular set ofparameters being within the
walls of the church, whereas inthe juke you come as you are,
even though the church also sayscome as you are.
But, as we know, often the wayyou are is not accepted
depending on where, which church, you're walking into.
The juke is a place whereeveryone is welcomed, is able to

(23:27):
be free, dance, sing in all ofthe ways, including some of the
sanctified ways, right, bringingsome of those gospel rhythms
into the juke, whereas thatwouldn't necessarily be accepted
the other way around.
And so I think that that's onebig reason why, for Sammy, the
juke was that place of freedom,the place to play the music he

(23:48):
wanted to play without judgment,to call in the ancestors that
he wanted to call in withoutjudgment, and to really feel
that sense of freedom.

Speaker 1 (23:58):
Yes, I want to stay with that and I'll lead with you
on this next question, dr Diana.
That, and I'll lead with you onthis next question.
Dr Diana Iafulayo, youmentioned the church being a
site of judgment.
Right, and I'm wondering howtheological doctrines and
teaching perpetuate that senseof judgment and condemnation of

(24:21):
people who transgress acceptableboundaries, particularly the
doctrine of sin.
So, dr Diana, can you lead usin a discussion of how do you
define sin and why do you thinkRyan Coogler decided to title
this film Sinners?

Speaker 3 (24:42):
So defining sin is very difficult, right?
And so people can bring up allkinds of theorists and
theologians, et cetera.
Sin is tied to shame right Forme, that's how I define it.
Right that there is shameattached and where that shame
comes from can lead us to eviland all kinds of other things.
I think it's really interestingthe way in which Ryan Coogler

(25:04):
helps us to think through who issinning, what sin is and where
sin shows up.
At what time and place does sinshow up?
Is it when Sammy decides thathe's going to the juke joint?
Is it when he's in the jukejoint?
Is it when he's having a momentwith Perlene?
When is Delta Slim sinning?
Or are there conditions beingplaced upon us and as we
navigate them, when people can'tput us in boxes, there lies the

(25:28):
definition of sin showing up,and so I think that that's
what's really interesting aboutthat.
And just even going back to thequestion before, right, sammy
says that he has the blues andhe has holy water too, and so at
what point do we say that theseare canceling each other out at
some point, right?
So if there's sin in the jukejoint, if you got holy water,
you good, right, you'reprotected in a particular kind

(25:50):
of way.
There is a sin for wanting to beaway from it all, even for a
moment.
We forget that in order for himto do the day away, he has to
labor in the fields before thesun is up for an entire week,
while his father is standing atthe pulpit in fresh clothes,
without tatters, right, withoutpatterns, without patches.
Right.
There is a way in which thereis a labor economy attached even

(26:13):
to the church space, right?
And when someone wants to buckagainst that and come out of
that, that becomes sinful.
When we talk about that, we cansay the music is sinful.
But but remember, father stolethe guitar and had the guitar in
the church because he wants himto do the same thing that
remick wants him to do, right,which is to conjure the
ancestors to cause a moment tobring down that spirit, right?

(26:34):
So if that's the case, where isthe sin?
When does it show up?
If it's not in the physicalmaterial of the guitar, if it's
not in the person that's playingit, if it's in the music, then
it's when you reject thesesystems of oppression that try
to put you in a box, and so weneed to push on that more so
than saying, hey, let's look forthese individual sins.
I don't like when people say,oh well, this person represented

(26:55):
wrath and this personrepresented lust, right, that's
not enough.
It's so arbitrary.
It's just categories and we aremade as a people to escape them
always.
So you know, I'm rambling, butI think that's where I'm kind of
thinking through what centersis and where we want to actually
place it.
Is it people that are trying tosurvive these categories or

(27:17):
those who get to create them?

Speaker 4 (27:19):
Can I add that I think I love what you just said,
especially about this laboreconomy.
As a musician in the churchdealing with some things right
now, where you are of value aslong as you give what they want,
but then when you somehow beginto advocate for yourself, you
are left out, and so these arespaces where I have come to

(27:42):
learn.
After leaving a Pentecostalchurch and now even within
mainline churches, I havelearned like, look, guess what?
It is reciprocal.
I used to think it was more orless like you know, which is
what a lot of people have taught, even from back.
When we're watching the moviein the 30s Because I'm thinking
to myself too about the 30s Likemy grandmother was just born,

(28:05):
Treasure God of Christ was, youknow, 20-something years old,
about 20 years old.
So you had so many people, youknow, with that mindset, because
one of the scripture passagesthat's constantly used to create
this labor economy and also tocreate this binary is, you know,
be be in this world, but not ofthe world.

(28:26):
I could just hear that thatwould be like if it was a sermon
.
That would be what someonewould put under this, because
it's constantly push.
You are not of them and it'slike you are better than god,
instead of god is loving god ofeveryone, and instead of
understanding people's storieswhere they are.
You know, with the piano player.
You know mean he was excitedabout that beer, but I mean the

(28:47):
system that he was in.
I mean that's why people makethese decisions and there's
something that we could learn alot from that as Christians, I
would say and understandingGod's role, or our role in
understanding God's placementfor all of us.

Speaker 2 (29:08):
You know, one thing I really appreciated in terms of
and thank you both for yourcomments, in terms of the
marketing for the film, was thestatement we are all sinners,
right, and so when we thinkabout, you know, from an African
spiritual perspective, with Ifa, there's a saying that good
people are as rare as a spareeye.

(29:28):
Right, purely good people.
And since none of us have aspare eye at home, that means
that all of us have the capacityto fall short of what we know
to be right right.
And so I don't classify sin interms of specific actions that
may have been listed, in termsof transgression, but really in

(29:48):
terms of going against what weknow to be right, what we know
to be correct, what we know tobe just, and we all have moments
of falling into that.
And so I, you know, I think thatlooking at the actions that
we're doing, you doing, we canall engage in sinful actions at
times.
That doesn't change ourontology to being sinners per se

(30:11):
, right, even though that issomething that has often been
pushed on to certain of us.
And so I think that there's aplayfulness in recognizing that
we all have places where we fallshort.
We all have places where weshine, even those who fall short
90% of the time.

(30:32):
Like they say, a broken clockis right twice a day.
So there's some redeemingquality, even in those who we
might ontologize as sinners.
And so I really appreciated theinterplay and I think that, in
terms of who the sinners were,it was everybody right,
everybody had a part to play,and so I thought that was really

(30:54):
thought-provoking the way thatall of that was couched.

Speaker 1 (31:00):
Thank you, you guys are really bringing up some
interesting and important theme.
Throughout the film, as we talkabout sin, we talk about the
bondage of the church, that youalso are touching upon the role
of racial capitalism.
Right and the Amber Lowe was aninvited guest on the show but

(31:35):
due to scheduling conflict, wasunable to be here.
But she wrote a review on thefilm Sinners and in this article
that's published on readingreligion she says just as color
and sound operate symbolically,so too does language itself,
particularly in the film'sevocative use of names to signal
its deeper critique of racialcapitalism.

(31:57):
The names of the twins, whenread together as smoke stack,
invoke the racialized machineryof modern industrialism.
This onomastic gesture is notincidental.
It encodes within thecharacter's identities a
critique of how Blackness andother racialized identities have
historically been tethered tosystems of extraction.

(32:19):
Environmental degradation andsocial exclusion in the name of
economic development.
Mental degradation and socialexclusion in the name of
economic development.
Through this symbolic naming,kugler reveals how industrial
and economic infrastructureshave always spoken the language
of racial capitalism.
The vampires and the Klansmenspeak the same tongue money.

(32:39):
When Smoke declares money ispower, the film critiques that
very premise.
Sharecroppers are paid inplantation script and wooden
nickels, false currencies andexpose the spiritual and
material bankruptcy of theeconomic order.
Only when Smoke kills Hogwooddoes he begin to reject money's

(32:59):
false promise.
Right, and so this role ofcapitalism within the church is
poignant, and I think it'simportant that you guys are
touching on that as well.
Are there any responses to thatexcerpt before I move forward?

Speaker 4 (33:15):
Yeah, I would say that because in a part of that
the capitalism is what A part ofthis Western economic
imperialism that is the hugeumbrella right, and this with
money, I would say is hard.
I think that comes into playtoo when they have the money,

(33:38):
what they believe they haveaccess to.
I was watching a documentary.
you know the crazy man thatbuilt the titan ship, uh, the
submersible the ocean gate yes,he very much said what I
understand colonists have alwaysdone, and even in this and we
saw it with the vampires he saidthis to his employees who quit

(33:59):
or were fired because theychallenged him.
He said access means ownership,and so when you take upon, like
you said, this capitalistunderstanding, you've now given
them access and they will feellike they own and notice, with
the vampires, they didn't comein unless you gave them access.
And so it's these multiplelayers that we have to have,

(34:22):
these, and I appreciate you fordoing this, having this, this,
this discussion, because oncethey have access to us through
the money, through the awardshows, through the award shows,
through the fame, through, youknow, our black upward social
mobility as much as folkscouldn't stand Franklin
Frazier's Black Rouge Roussi, hewas on to something.
And I think even for us all ofus are privileged here, right,

(34:43):
with these PhDs behind our name.
I don't care how much studentloans are behind us, there's
still a privilege to that.
And so I appreciate thisconversation because it helps me
to constantly reflect and sayhow am I giving into this, even
though I'm critiquing it and Ithink that's important, right,
and so we're complicit in thesestructures.

Speaker 3 (35:04):
Right, we live in a economy of capitalism, late
stage capitalism that's killingus all.
We don't own anything.
All of this is well known,right, but the vampires, and
therefore Annie and thereforesometimes Smoke, right, show us
how to move within the systemdifferently.
Right, the vampires have money,they have gold, they have old
money, but he's constantlysaying, specifically Remick,

(35:26):
that it means absolutely nothing.
He's there for something otherand I know we love to take
consumption through the vampire,but he's not thinking through
money.
Right, smoke is thinking throughmoney, but he's also
negotiating.
He's telling that little Blackgirl hey, that's not enough, you
got to ask for more, you got torequire more in this system,
that's going to take everythingfrom you.
We get in and say I don't needno other money because I'm not

(35:46):
leaving here, this is where I'mhome and this is how I'm going
to work this community.
So I don't want your bloodmoney because this money will
get me free, even if it's notmoney empowered to you.
So we keep seeing the way inwhich, even in that capitalistic
structures, right, folks arestill moving differently, and so
I know we want to condemn thatvampire, but vampires are also
doing something much, muchdifferent as well, that we got

(36:07):
to pay attention to as well aswe're thinking through these
economies.

Speaker 1 (36:11):
But the vampire is also offering his gold.
He's trying to bait the peoplewith the money, with the gold
right.
And so in that way, I think thevampire is participating in
capitalism as we are familiarwith it, right as an oppressed
people.
But this racial capitalism isreally important because it's a

(36:32):
system that connects oppressivestructures, such as prisons,
such as slavery, with the sametechnologies and logics of the
church.
So when we think about thechurch as a site of bondage,
it's not just this theologicaldoctrine, but it's co-opting of
these social structures,particularly capitalism that is

(36:54):
exploiting and extracting laborright and assigning these
hierarchical roles to who isworthy and who is not.
So I think that this racialcapitalism is really important
piece.
Before I move forward, drFulayo, do you want to chime in?

Speaker 2 (37:13):
Yeah, I'll just briefly say I mean, I agree with
all that you've said, and Ithink it comes through even in
the comment that Dr Candace made, starting off, and that you
just made in terms of thoseintersections between extracted
labor being labeled as devotion,right, being labeled as
goodness, being labeled asblessedness, ultimately, in

(37:37):
order still to be extractive hassaid we are all complicit in
these systems.
We have been born into them andwe are making our way, the best
way that we can.
But we also know that you know,like Jay-Z said, no matter how
much you got, you still right,no matter how many piles of gold

(38:01):
you have.
And so there's a place.
I think that in the ultimatereckoning in the film, smoke
comes to realize that like, oh,we had this money, we were able
to purchase this place, we wereable to do these things, as I'm
sure our ancestors who were inRosewood and other places that
were destroyed came to recognizethat, oh, no matter how much

(38:23):
capital we have in a system ofracialized, racial capitalism
which is the important part, asyou said, when there is a racial
caste system, no amount ofmoney will move you up through
that caste.
And so now we have to havethese alternative spaces and
these alternative ways ofnegotiating it, of which the
church has been a part right,and of which our African

(38:46):
spiritual systems have as wellbeen a part.
And so you know being able to,when we recognize that we are in
a system that was never meantto work for us and never will,
no matter how much of its ruleswe play by, we now take these
alternative routes, which iswhat we see a lot of the
characters in the film doing.

Speaker 1 (39:06):
Yeah, and these systems will never keep us safe
either.
And I love how it is a Blackwoman in the film doing yeah,
and these systems will neverkeep us safe either.
And I love how it is a Blackwoman in the film who is
demonstrating this alternativeeconomy, this refusal to
participate in the racialcapitalist system.
So, for those of you who arejoining us, we are talking about

(39:26):
the Ryan Coogler's Film Centers.
We have three dynamic guests,and we are also celebrating our
fourth anniversary ofAbolitionist Sanctuary on
Juneteenth, and so I just wantto raise my glass for a toast to
celebrate four years.

(39:47):
Whatever beverage you have,this is what we're doing.
So cheers to AbolitionistSanctuary, cheers to you sis,
Congratulations.
Thank you so much.
Thank you, thank you so much.
My choice of beverage here is abourbon, with Angel's Envy, and

(40:10):
I'm having me a good timelittle honey jack over here.

Speaker 4 (40:21):
So you know, brown liquor sister, that would be,
that would have been mypreference.
I'm uh, you know uh woodward's,or you know, honey jack for
sure in a coke I know that'sright and what we got in your
cup, Dr Deanna.

Speaker 3 (40:32):
As the lightweight that I am, I have mango green
sweet tea, so that is what wehave together today.

Speaker 2 (40:39):
Yes, that sweet tea is ancestral, so we welcome it.

Speaker 1 (40:45):
That's right.
So listen y'all.
I want us to be comfortable, Iwant us to kick back like we are
at the spades table, we're inthe backyard at the cookout,
we're girlfriends in the salon.
You know doing what we do,talking our talk about this film
.
So have yourself a good time inthese responses, as I ask
questions to you individually.

(41:05):
So I'm going to start with you,dr Deanna.
Can you share with us what ishoodoo and can you give us a
quick crash course on how Blackpeople retained and transmitted
their diasporic religiousidentity after being stolen from
Africa, forced across thetransatlantic in the most

(41:26):
inhumane and death-dealing,undignified conditions and
deposited into the new world?
Why is this historical lensimportant for the film, which
takes place in the past and notthe present?

Speaker 3 (41:41):
absolutely, and so if you want to try to define
hoodoo there is no simple answerto that.
I love things that are notsimple answers.
It has been characterized as apractice, a healing tradition, a
magical system, a religion,sometimes with a theology and a
cosmology, sometimes not.
It is something that one does,but it is also one way in which

(42:03):
that we understand the cause andeffects of life and try to
create balance in that way.
So the best way to definehoodoo is as broadly as possible
, and I give credit to theYvonne Dr, yvonne Shero, who was
the hoodoo consultant on theRyan Coogler film, who I just
honor and love and send up allthe blessings to her site.

(42:25):
Academic hoodoo gives us thislarger definition and
understanding.
Is it a religion?
Is it not?
It depends on the practitioners.
It is a closed system soeverybody can do it, no matter
how much TikTok tells you youcan.
You need to find some lineageand some people to do it
properly.
There are supernatural elements, but there's also a lot of
natural elements.
But it is an African-Americanbased tradition with roots

(42:47):
grounded in and from Africa,from a variety of different
systems, and I think that showswho we are as a people, that,
even though we were stolen, eventhough we were seemingly
stripped, we retained, wecreated new.
It is syncretic, meaning thatwe have borrowed and used from a
variety of sources and createsomething new.
It is definitely the cipher ofit all, where in which we sample

(43:08):
, we remix and we come uponsomething greater.
It is all of those things and Ithink the historical context of
the 1932 Mississippi Delta,which is also a syncretic places
where lots of cultures, lots ofidentities, ethnicities come to
be and flourish, is indicativeof showing where the horror
shows up.
And I love saying this andwe'll get into this later.

(43:30):
The film was horror before youever see a vampire.
Vampire doesn't even have toshow up.
And you see horror because ofhow Black folks have survived in
Mississippi throughout the timeof enslavement to sharecropping
.
And I think that is soimportant because just as Remick
the vampire is searching forhis people because there is a
disconnect, so are Black folksin the South, right and beyond.

(43:53):
African American folks arealways searching for our people,
our ancestors, and hoodooallows that to happen in a
particular kind of way.
So that's just a shortintroduction.
I always say read more.
There's lots of books.
I can mention them, but that'smy short crash course and why
this historical resonance is soso important for this film.

Speaker 1 (44:08):
My short crash course and why this historical
resonance is so, so importantfor this film.
Thank you, and you're touchingon the next question, but why is
horror as a genre important forthis film?

Speaker 3 (44:18):
So my whole argument right now with my work is that
horror is the impetus to Blackreligion.
It is the thing that sparks ourquest, our search for more life
, meaning, for complexity, fornuance, and so, for me, them
searching for freedom in a worldthat said that they were not
human and could not ever haveaccess to that is already a
horror film.
But then we get vampires, thenwe get some conversation about

(44:41):
hates, we get some conversationabout death, we get some thrills
and those kinds of things.
Right, we get the Klan to showup.
All of this is what creates thesystem of horror here.
So it is a genre.
Some people will say it's aSouthern Gothic.
That is totally fine as well,but this is a horror film.
Yes, because of the vampires,specifically because of the hate

(45:03):
conversation, because of thesupernatural elements, but also
because of the experience ofAfrican-American people in the
Mississippi Delta in the 1930sis also a horrifying experience,
and so, therefore, that mediumis appropriate.
Whenever you see a Southernfilm or film that is grounded in
a particular time period, therewill be horror elements always

(45:25):
there, whether people choose toacknowledge them or not, and so
I am super excited that Ryandecided to Ryan Cooley decided
to lean into the horror elementsand then expound on them and
make them super, super natural.
Of course we can see allconnections and just all kinds
of things attached to it, butwithout the vampires the
vampires never showed up itstill would be a horror film it

(45:46):
still would be a horror film.

Speaker 1 (45:49):
Well, dr Deanna, I'm glad you're excited that it was
a horror film, because your girl, here we don't do horror, we
don't do horror and I wasn'tgoing to watch this film, but
many people said that I neededto see it.
So my fine husband texted me,slid into my text one day and

(46:13):
was like you want to go see thefilm centers and you know, when
your man asks you that it hits alittle different, it hits a
little different.
So I was like, um no, not atnight, you can do a day, babe.
You can do a day, babe.
So the next morning we watcheda matinee and, I can't lie, my

(46:37):
eyes were probably closed moreoften than not, and so I was
able to catch the gist of it,but I realized I missed a lot.
So for the sake of thisdiscussion, I watched it one
more time and I closed my eyesfewer times.
So I'm not sure I still saw thewhole film, but I took copious
notes and I and I think I'mcaught up.

(46:58):
But and you know to your pointabout the horrific, you know,
growing up in Harlem, new York,I saw a lot of horrific things
right, and I lived through ahorror that was blood wrenching
and death dealing that I don'tneed to see for entertainment in
a movie.
So for me it's just like Idon't.

(47:19):
You know, maybe it's aconnection to past trauma.
I just I don't like horror.
Maybe it was growing up in anevangelical home and you know
you don't want to catch themspirits.

Speaker 3 (47:34):
That's where I get the horror from.
So the evangelical Pentecostaltradition told me what horror
was before I knew what horrorwas.
So I'm totally with you on thatone.

Speaker 1 (47:38):
Yeah, but I do appreciate the film and I
appreciate your analysis of theimportance of horror.
Can you share with us how thatis connected to your research
and an emphasis on religion?
What does religion and horrorlook like within this film, but

(47:58):
also its implications for thecontemporary political climate.

Speaker 3 (48:03):
Yeah.
So my research delves intohorror and religion and how they
are symbiotically linked, thatthey are deeply intertwined,
deeply intersecting, and thatthey build and bend on each
other.
They're always mutating andentangling.
And I particularly love and ampartial to monsters and monster
theory.
And I think that we need tohave a Black monster theory

(48:23):
where in which we do not borrowfrom white monsters and try to
make them Black, but reallyground ourselves in
understanding of how Blacknesschanges the conception of these
monsters that we hold near anddear to our heart.
Just like Remick's Irishnesschanged how he did vampirism, so
does Stack's Blackness changehow we understand the vampire.
And so, because of this, horroris deeply theological, it's

(48:45):
deeply spiritual, it is one ofthe only moral genres because
it's trying to think throughthese questions about human
existence, about the afterlife,about hope, about freedom, in
intentional ways.
And, yes, it does elicit theemotion of fear and disgust, but
so does these conversations.
When you're trying toconceptualize what is the human,
you're going to have somefeelings of unsettling in nature

(49:08):
, right.
So it's just deeply entwined inthat.
So that's what I'm kind ofthinking through and how our
conversations show up, and ofcourse we know that we live in a
racist society that takes whatis considered Black or African
and demonizes it, especially ourspiritual traditions, and they
show up most often in the horrorgenre.
So what's also really awesomeabout this horror film, over a

(49:31):
lot of the more recent ones, isthat it takes African traditions
, black traditions, hoodoo ifa,right, and it makes it resonant.
It's beautiful, it's sacred, aswell as the Black church, right
.
It's also sacred in its nature,right.
But we also have opportunity toquestion, which is what horror
does?
It kind of makes us have theseblurred lines across those

(49:54):
boundaries, and in a time periodwhere, politically first,
things are being wiped away andpretending as if they never
existed, this says no, we'rehere and there is a history here
.
And that's what's so beautifulabout the film is that there
were so many layers that weredone with deep research and
concern and intentionality sothat you can't easily wipe it
away.
And so when people didn't getit, it wasn't oh, you just

(50:16):
didn't get it and that was it.
People are doing work.
They're trying to figure outwhat they didn't get.
What layer did they miss?
How can they figure this out?
What's the connection here?
I just saw a post that evendown to the car that they that
Stacks and Smoke were drivingwas historical in nature, was a
Black car company right?
So all of these layers, allthese historical Easter eggs,
show the importance of Blackculture, black religion and

(50:39):
religiosity and the way in whichwe conceive of ourselves.
How do we create our ownbeingness, our own ontology?
And so for me, that is part andparcel what horror is, and so
that's usually what my researchtries to engage in.

Speaker 1 (50:52):
Thank, you for that and that was a point that I
noted as well that Ryan Coogleris doing something different
about these kind of socialconstructions of who is
acceptable, who is not, who isworthy, who is not, who is
sinner, who is not, and that youknow, when you look at, you
know this kind of enlightenmentdiscourse, the African body

(51:15):
being bestial, right, being lessthan human.
But in this film it is theoppressor who is the monster,
right, who is the vampire.
And so the way in which he'sdoing some type of this radical
reordering of kind of thissocial imagination where the

(51:36):
horrific and the bestial are notAfrican bodies but is led by
this white, dominant, oppressivegroup, particularly the Klan
and its progeny right.
So you know, just hearkeningback to that conversation about
sin, that you know you're right,dr Deanna that there are vast

(51:56):
interpretations of sin Sin asdebt, sin as deviation, sin as
separation and alienation, sinas punishment.
But there's also, you know,this distinction between
individual sin, where we seek toblame and punish people who
transgress dominant boundariesand norms, but thereification of

(52:18):
social sin that we're seeingthrough racial capitalism and
caste, and how he is reorderingthat, that he is disrupting

(52:39):
those cosmologies and turning itupside down, which is kind of a
gospel message, right, it'sturning it upside down to say
the beast is the oppressor, um,um, and so I really appreciate
that.
So thank you so much for yourcomments.
Uh, dr Diana, I'm going to goto EF Lano.
Um, dr Laughing house has had aconflict and and had to leave

(53:02):
Um.
But uh, ef Ulaño, can you sharemore?
I know Dr Diana gave herdefinition of hoodoo, but can
you contribute yourunderstanding of hoodoo as a
practitioner and how does thisfilm resonate, if at all, with

(53:22):
your religious experience inChristianity, also as a pastor's
kid like Sammy, but also ourfavorite priestess in the Yoruba
tradition?

Speaker 2 (53:33):
Absolutely Well, you know, definitely, in addition to
everything that Dr Diana said.
Typically, you know, when I'masked about Hoodoo, it is our
African-American amalgamation ofour African traditions, right?
So those of us who came here,who were from all over the
continent we did not in theUnited States, for a number of

(53:56):
different reasons, we didn'thave traditions remain intact in
the same way that, for instance, the Yoruba tradition remained
intact in Cuba and Brazil andbecame Santeria and Candomblé
more directly.
So Kuru is an amalgamation oftraditions that is influenced by

(54:19):
various African cultural andspiritual understandings, in a
similar way that Obia is in theCaribbean, right.
And so, as far as how the filmdepicted it, you know, as Dr
Diana mentioned, and one of thereasons why horror is a
conflicted genre for me at times, is that typically, when we see

(54:43):
any type of Africanspirituality being brought in,
it is the antagonist, it is theevil, it is the conjuring of the
devil, even though in most ofour systems there is no devil
concept per se.
We see the evil that humans doas the devilishness, as the
thing to be fought against.

(55:05):
We see the sinfulness of ourown soul in the sense of going
against what we know to befought against.
We see the sinfulness of ourown soul in the sense of going
against what we know to be right, as the devils, or as we call
them in Yoruba, ajawun, or thosethings that fight against life
or fight against productivity,that take us away from being
human, take us away from beingpeople of humble and gentle

(55:29):
character, which is our firsttenet within the Ifa tradition,
and so this film did a beautifuljob of presenting Hoodoo and
African spirituality morebroadly as a beacon of light,
right as a saving grace, assomething that kept us connected

(55:52):
to tradition and also to ourown protection and our own
survival, which is a lot of whatwe often used these systems for
within our experience.
Here we did, you know.
So right now I'm wearing a HiJohn the Conqueror root, and it
was common to wear this root asa protective element to help to

(56:16):
conquer the beasts in whosebelly we found ourselves, as
well as to overcome sickness andto overcome different
situations that we might havefound ourselves in.
And I'll echo the shout out toDr Chirot, who is one of my
mentors and whose book BlackMagic does a really wonderful
job of outlining a lot of theintersections between conjure

(56:40):
and hoodoo and the church which,as Dr Diana pointed out, you
know, there is a syncretism to,where many who practice hoodoo
use Christian elements right,use them in different ways, and
so we may use psalms and thingsas incantations or inscriptions
in a different way than they'reused in the church.

(57:04):
In terms of my own experience, Ireally again appreciated that
light being shed shined on thetradition.
It also there is still thatelement, though, of you know, I
think, the Hoodoo practitionerbeing the one who understood
this evil that was going onright, and although she is there

(57:26):
as a redeemer, there's alsothis place of where people were
looking at her.
Well, how do you know all ofthis?
And you know what, what?
How do you know how to dealwith?
This?
May be versed in all types ofhorrific things or magical

(57:53):
things throughout the world,which is not necessarily untrue.
Right, it's us understandingenergy and understanding that
these entities and energiesexist, and knowing how to deal
with them.
We know, so we would considerthe vampire to be a type of
Adjogun or a type of bad spiritor a type of entity that is

(58:14):
coming to take away life and totake away our productivity, and
so, yes, we do know how to dealwith that.
You know, actually, but I thinkthat you know there was,
there's still for as much as asgood as it did, there's still
for as much as good as it did,there's still that layer of sort
of intertwining Africanspirituality with a knowledge of

(58:36):
evil things more broadly, andso that's an interesting, that
was definitely an interestingkind of push and pull and
something that always that kindof stirred me up a little bit.
I'll say, like you, reverendNakia, I'm not one who is
typically into horror, although,interestingly, I have always

(58:59):
loved vampires or loved thevampire genre, and I think it's
because of the deep existentialquestions that vampirism brings.
Right, if we were offeredeternal life, would we take it?
If that meant that then we hadto take the lives of others,
right?
Is eternal life a gift or is ita curse, right?

(59:22):
So we see that Annie is seeingit absolutely as a curse and
says, oh no, like, make surethat you let me release me
before I turn, if I get bitten,because being here, stuck in
this realm forever, is not agift at all, it's a curse and
it's something that I don't wantto engage with.

(59:42):
And so you know, and also youknow, the last thing I'll say
for now is that the figure ofthe vampire also represents the
ways in which the victim becomesa victimizer, so that, in the
sense that, in order to become avampire, one must have been

(01:00:03):
bitten themselves.
And so we don't know whatRemick's story was, for example,
prior to having been turnedinto a vampire, however long ago
that he was.
But it talks to us, you know.
It shows us this place where,when we allow ourselves to be
bitten right, if we go morebroadly and using the vampirism
as an allegory once we allowourselves or become a part of

(01:00:28):
this system, whether we like itor not, we have to go out and
drink that blood.
We have to try to turn otherpeople, we have to do these
things that, if we were in ourright selves, outside of the
system, we might not do, butwe've already been co-opted into
it, and so it's a challenge ofhow do we not continue to uphold

(01:00:52):
these same systems when we'vealready been co-opted into them,
and so many of us, I know.
There's always that struggle,and so, even at the end, when
Remick is killed or is released,there's almost this sense of
relief.
I felt almost like, ok, I don'thave to do this anymore.
I was doing this because thiswas the system that I was

(01:01:14):
co-opted into, right, this iswhat I was turned into, but
there's now this place where I'mreleased from it and no longer
have to engage in that, and soit was really deep.
I think it touched on a lot ofdifferent things, a lot of
different existential questions,and you know again,
specifically with regard toAfrican spirituality and our

(01:01:35):
Black traditions, showed thepower of them and how they can
cross lines so that ourtraditions are inclusive of all
that we understand energy.
It didn't have to be aparticular type of entity that
we were used to on the continent, right?
It spoke to this milieu ofcultures and how different

(01:01:59):
spiritual entities come to be inthis place and how you know
they have come from differentsources.
Oh, you're muted.

Speaker 1 (01:02:12):
Girl, you said so much that I mean we could park
here and spend significant time.
Thank you for that richanalysis.
When you talked about yourconnection to this kind of
vampire motif, it took me backto when we were younger,

(01:02:33):
remember you had that.

Speaker 2 (01:02:33):
Gothic stage.
Yes, absolutely Well, funnyenough, and so just real quick,
there was those of us who grewup in the nineties.
There was a show called Vampire, the Masquerade, that used to
come on and we were obsessed.
Many of my friends wereobsessed with that show to the
point that there was a clan ofus who considered ourselves
vampires.
And we were obsessed.
Many of my friends wereobsessed with that show to the
point that there was a clan ofus who considered ourselves
vampires and I was a part of thevampire clan.

(01:02:53):
And then there was a clan whoconsidered themselves werewolves
.
So I definitely had my gothbeing a vampire of the fangs the
whole nine.
I mean I've always loved it and, again, all those existential
questions that it brings up.

Speaker 1 (01:03:07):
Yeah, yeah, I remember.
So thank you for thatconnection.
It just took me back.
I had a flashback to youngIyafulayo.
But I also like what you'resaying about this co-opting that
happens with vampire, thisvictim-victimizer relationship,
and it reminds me of how hurtpeople hurt people, right, and

(01:03:30):
is hurting people ever worth thereward of eternal life or
whatever?
The telos is?
Right, but it also makes methink about how society really
fits into this trope of vampires.
Right, and that blood is notredeeming.
Right, that when it is theblood of Black and Brown people

(01:03:51):
spoiled in the streets ofFerguson, in you know Louisville
and you know New York and soforth, that blood hasn't been
salvific.
Right, which, if we were toplay into this trope, that
Kugler is setting up, uh, whichis why the vampires, that
represents the oppressor thriveson blood, right, um, and and

(01:04:16):
and and particularly the bloodof vulnerable people.
Um, and so how?
This vampire trope is a socialallegory for the blood-seeking,
death-seeking systems in societythat requires the blood of
vulnerable people.

(01:04:36):
Right, for whatever the priceis going back to racial
capitalism.
Right, for whatever the priceis to kill innocent, vulnerable
people, for that reward is, youknow, is a tool of oppression
that we see in society, and Ithink it's brilliant how Ryan

(01:04:57):
Coogler is using this horrorgenre through the vampire trope,
to amplify that, to highlightthat.
That, to highlight that yousaid so much.
But what I want to bring usback to is the role of women as
conjurer.
Right, you talked about Annie,that she was the first person to

(01:05:19):
be able to identify the evilspirit.
Right To say this spirit is notof us, hold up, wait a minute.
Right.
And the role of women asnurturer, as protector, as
provider, as sexual partnersright, sources of pleasure that
Annie is traversing all of theseroles in her, her, and the ways

(01:05:41):
in which she resists these,these dominant tropes, whether
it's capitalism, by using herwooden coins.
Right, whether it's magic andnot subscribing to Sammy's
religion, christianity, thatYoruba.
What is the role of Black womenand mothers as conjurer?

Speaker 2 (01:06:17):
That is a wonderful question, and you know the
importance of women really can'tbe overstated, no-transcript,

(01:06:55):
and that there's nothing thatcan be overstated in the power
of women.
There's a proverb that saysmeaning that there's no divinity
like mother.
Mother is our first earth.
Mother is our first God.
Mother is our first God.
Mother is our creator, thesustainer.
The things that mother doesrecreates a microcosm of what

(01:07:19):
the universe does and whatmother earth does.
And while, of course, you knowwe don't discount the masculine
principle and the way that ithas to activate the mother in
order for her to be able to dowhat she does, ultimately the
housing of the growing child,the feeding and all of those
things come back to her and theconjuring of spiritual energy.

(01:07:43):
And so, within Ifa and withinmany of our other African
traditions, the power of thewomb itself is the seed of magic
, and so even the fact that wekeep a lot of our sacred
implements in pots, those potsare meant to represent the womb,
the most powerful entity thatwe have, one of well, I won't

(01:08:12):
say the most powerful, but oneof the most important entities
that we have called Oddu, whichis the place where all
possibilities in the universeare born is represented by the
womb, and so women's power isabsolutely very, very important.
Priestesses, I would say, inthe diaspora, the vast majority
of African spiritual houses arerun by women.

(01:08:32):
This is particularly true inBrazil, but certainly in the US.
Amongst African Americanspracticing Orisha tradition and
other traditions, women areoften at the head.
Now, that doesn't mean, ofcourse, that patriarchy has not
crept in.
It has, as it has sincecolonial times, and in fact, one

(01:08:53):
of the ways, one of the thingsthat was used to denigrate
African social systems andspiritual systems, was the fact
that women were so prominent.
Right, and Europeans who camein would say, because of their
patriarchal system and even thesystem of Christianity, in which
God is seen as categoricallymale and referred to as he and

(01:09:14):
father and these things, whereasthat's not the case in many of
our African spiritual systemssaid you know that you all must
be less than and must bedegenerate in a sense, if you're
allowing women to rule youright, allowing that to happen

(01:09:34):
as though it was something thatwas a fault.
And so one of the things thatmany Black women who engage in
African spirituality findattractive about it is the fact
that women are so prominent,both in the human sense as well
as in the spiritual sense.
So, you know, having grown upin Protestantism, we know that

(01:09:56):
we don't have even the Mariandevotion that Catholics have to
bring the female into it.
There is this father, son, holySpirit.
It's debatable.
Some people would say that theHoly Spirit is a feminine energy
, but for many, all three ofthose are masculine energies and
so it feels as though there'snot a place for women within

(01:10:17):
Protestant Christianity.
And we also know, of course,that some of the denominations
still don't ordain women, youknow, or even those that may
ordain women.
There's, no, there's not anequal amount of respect for
women, preachers and things ofthat nature.
And even my mother, as areverend, has gone through this
and, and you know, isconsistently working against

(01:10:38):
that and pointing out thoseplaces where, you know, you have
the services that have multiplepreachers and they're all men,
right, and things of that nature.
And so being involved inAfrican spirituality has really
allowed me personally to stepinto my power as a spiritual

(01:10:58):
leader and also to see myself assacred as a Black woman,
because we have Black womandivinities who are sacred in
their Black womanhood, who aresacred in their Black motherhood
, and mothering is really areally key energy, and that
mothering doesn't only have tohappen with biological children,

(01:11:20):
but mothering as a spirit andas an energy.
And so I think that Annie, youknow, in the film, definitely
exemplifies that.
And there's a place, you know, Iappreciated you mentioned her
as a sexual partner and I reallyappreciated them bringing her
sexuality into it because,honestly, that was a big part of

(01:11:41):
what kept her from being, as wewould say, mammified, right.
So I think that this trope ofmotherhood has also been
weaponized against us and wehave been pigeonholed into this
place where we are only thoughtvaluable insofar as we are able
to mother everybody.
And so that place of herdeciding, and even the way that

(01:12:02):
the scene was shown of her beingthe one like, okay, well, you
here, and, matter of fact, Ihave been one a little bit and
let me be the one to instigateit right, and not just as being
passively receptive of it, Ithink that that was also really
powerful.
And we know that sex as wellholds a lot of conjuring energy
as we connect with one another,and so I think that was a really

(01:12:26):
beautiful aspect to bring in tokeep her from being seen only
in this role of mother.

Speaker 1 (01:12:34):
Yeah, thank you so much.
I you know you know we like totalk about sex, so I appreciate
you invoking the connectivity ofof sex, not just as physical
but a spiritual practice as well, and even resistance, in this
sense that it is a way to rescueAnnie's character from the

(01:12:56):
mammy trope being asexual andundesirable, right?
I also like the casting ofAnnie, that she does not fit
into the Hollywood aesthetics ofwhat you think a woman would
look like who would attractsomeone like you know, michael B
Jordan, right.
So I appreciate the realness ofher character aesthetically in

(01:13:21):
the ways in which she embodiesBlack womanhood and Black
motherhood.
There's a scene in the filmwhere Smoke and this is for I'm
opening the conversation up toboth Dr Diana and Iafumayo
there's a scene in the filmwhere Smoke is talking to Annie
and he says he never saw roots,demons, ghosts or magic, just
power that money can buy.

(01:13:41):
Annie says quote all that war orwhatever the else hell you were
doing in Chicago.
And you are back here in frontof me, two arms, two legs, two
eyes and a brain that work.
How do you know?
I didn't pray and work everyroute.
My grandmama taught me to keepyou and that crazy brother of
yours safe every day sinceyou've been gone.
The smoke says, quote so whydidn't those roots work on our

(01:14:04):
baby?
There's a lot that's going onin this dialogue.
It's talking about thereligious pluralism of our
people, the prayer and the magicthat's happening, but it's also
invoking grief with Blackmotherhood and reproductive

(01:14:25):
experiences, as well as thequestion of theodicy, which I
think is another importanttheological theme, this notion
of suffering black nihilism andevil, or why magic and prayers
worked for a bootleggedwomanizing hustler but not save
his innocent baby.

Speaker 2 (01:14:44):
And so can you speak to the complexities of that
dialogue that's happening thereand what it means for the
question of theodicy that scenebecause you know so many times

(01:15:12):
it's like the idea that we knowour grandmamas have been praying
over us and our mamas have beenpraying over us and all the
folks that pray over us.
Just because you didn't see it,just because you don't
recognize the power of theprayers, just because you
weren't witness to exactly whatwas done, that doesn't mean that
it hasn't been working for you.
And so that was a reallypowerful statement for me that

(01:15:33):
she made in terms of you know,don't think just because you
didn't, you don't understand theworkings of it, that it wasn't
working.
I think, at the same time, whatwas so powerful about that
whole exchange, especiallyaround the baby, is that, you
know, within IFA, we say no oneknows the beginning and the end
of all things, and so, for asmuch power as we have, for as

(01:15:54):
much as we are able to pray,conjure and do all of the things
that we're able to do, we arenot God and we're not fully in
control of things.
There is still that place wherethe things that we're praying
for, the things that we areworking towards and conj prayer
is going to be answered right.

(01:16:14):
We see that in terms of innocentchildren, you know being killed

(01:16:35):
in all of these conflicts thatwe are facing now and, of course
, in Harlem, as we've talkedabout, where we've grown up and
the things that we've seen.
Did everybody who was saveddeserve it?
Not necessarily, and has everyperson who was not saved, you
know, not innocent, no right.

(01:16:57):
But there are these balances inthe universe and things that we
can never fully understand, andso the best that we are able to
do is put our energy in, youknow, do our prayers, do our
rituals and incantations, andalso know that we're never going
to be fully in control of theoutcome.
And so that really, for me, wasa really powerful moment, and I

(01:17:25):
feel like it would have beenmade even more powerful if Annie
responded to him in that way,in saying, look, I'm not God, no
matter what I do, I still haveto submit to the divine.
I think her lack of responsefor me, I felt like it came
across as acquiescence or like,oh, maybe this really didn't

(01:17:48):
work, or maybe, you know,there's a place where I feel
like that would have been evenmade more powerful had she
responded, but still it was apowerful exchange.

Speaker 3 (01:18:01):
You're muted again.
Thank you, dr Deanna.
I think there is a sacrednessin the I don't know.
I think there is a ritualmoment in the I don't know, and
that's what she gave him right.
There's some things she knewand knew well, and there were
some things she didn't quiteknow and there were some things
she just didn't have that answerto.

(01:18:22):
And it speaks to just what youjust said, but it's really
interesting.
So I actually found it reallyamazing that she was aware of
the spirit but didn't quite knowhow to work with it, especially
when we got to the vampires.
Right, she had to rest on kindof cultural knowledge and
inference in order to figure outwhat to do, and so it felt very

(01:18:43):
surface in terms of trying todefeat the vampires.
They didn't have a real answer,right, and this, I don't know,
is sometimes sufficient andsometimes it's not right.
It wasn't sufficient for Gracein that moment of what would we
do?
How will we figure this out?
There needs to be an actionplan, and sometimes there's a
rush for that, and she didn'tgive him that, and so he has to
sit with that grief and sit withthe way of him leaving her

(01:19:05):
because of his grief, and all ofthat was coming in this moment.
This moment was packed and itjust shows the humanness of us
all, right, and how we are stillall trying to figure this out
and we have these questions andwe're wrestling with it.
Wrestling with what it means tohave death, what it means to
have favor and not have favorand protection, and who gets to
access the protection and whydid it extend, like you said,

(01:19:27):
not just to him, right, becausethat makes sense, but his
brother, but not his baby?
Again, all of those things arecoming up in this moment and it
just shows the powerfulness ofalso not knowing and not having
the answers, especially in theworld when everybody's trying to
be an expert, everybody'strying to know everything.
Sometimes that I don't know, asI said, is a sacred moment of

(01:19:49):
just parsing through andallowing yourself to be an
extension of the divine in thatway.
So, yeah, I'm totally fascinatedby Annie.
I love that there was so muchsensuality and eroticism without
flesh being shown.
We maybe got a little piece ofthigh, but nothing else was
there and it did not negate fromthe sexiness of the scene, from

(01:20:10):
the power of the scene, fromthe erotic charge of the scene,
and so a lot of bad takes mademe so angry when they were like,
oh, that was his aunt, or Ithought it was his aunt.
I was like how could you?
The whole scene changed aroundAnnie?
There were flowers, there weresmoke, even the strike of the
match was tied to the guitarstrum.
Like every aspect of Annie onscreen.

(01:20:30):
Change it from, change it fromher being a trope of the magical
Negro as well, of someone whojust has these answers and who
just knows how to get theprotagonist to the end.
Right.
She had background in historyand we wanted to know more.
We want the larger story ofAnnie and Smoke because of it,
because it was well-intentionedand well thought through.

Speaker 1 (01:20:51):
Thank you.
I realize our time is coming toan end so I want to ask two
more questions and then go to arapid round, so as much as we
can respond in mindfulness ofthe time limitations that we
have.
But I really appreciate youranalysis and, iyafunayo, I'm

(01:21:14):
thinking about in my ownresearch how I'm thinking about
Black women as divine,particularly in the Black Lives
Matter movement.
Melina Abdullah, who is one ofthe co-founders of the LA
chapter, has this annualfestival in honor of Breonna
Taylor and it's called BlackWomen Are Divine.

(01:21:37):
And so, using you know,experience and people who are
practicing as epistemologicalsource for my research, you know
I was trying to make meaning ofwhat does it mean for Black
women to be divine?
And Dr Ebony Marshall-Turmanpushed back on me in one of my
conference papers at SCE aboutthe dangers of Black women as

(01:21:59):
being all things to all people,for this sense of divinity that
doesn't allow for our humanness,it doesn't allow for our
vulnerability, for our flesh,for our mistakes and so forth.
And so when you said thatAnnie's non-response was this
kind of you know invocation, tosay I am not divine, right, but

(01:22:22):
you know, but we can trust thedivine who works on our behalf
was very helpful for so.
So thank you.
In my own thinking Um, and andthen, when we talk about prayer
not working um these kinds ofreligious tools, right, we saw
how there was a scene where bothremnant and remnant and uh, I

(01:22:44):
can't remember what it was.
Sam.
No, no, tammy right.

Speaker 2 (01:22:47):
Saying the Lord's Prayer.

Speaker 1 (01:22:49):
Saying the Lord's Prayer.
I thought it had a null effect.
Some people are saying thatthat wasn't their understanding,
but whatever happens, we don'tsee prayer work in that scene,
right?
So Kugler is doing somethingintentional there because it's
reoccurring.
So my two questions and thenwrap it around.
So my two questions and thenwrap it around.
So I want to talk about the endof the movie where Stack, as a

(01:23:17):
dead vampire, says to Smoke, whois fighting to stay alive quote
we was never going to be freeRunning around looking for
freedom and you know damn wellwe weren't going to find it.
End quote what does it mean tohold space in our community for
the pessimism?

Speaker 3 (01:23:46):
realism and optimism of whether freedom is ever
obtainable.
I've been saying this a lot, Ithink Blackness changes the
vampiric right, and so that's alot of my theory and research.
In 1932, even though withoutconsent he is turned right,
stack presents a viable option,an option that is not reliant
upon community which, remember,they don't want to see their

(01:24:07):
ancestors in the same kind ofway that Annie would like to.
Annie doesn't say, oh, thevampiric is absolutely a no.
What she says is there's acurse there.
You can't get access to yourancestors.
And she's trying to get to thatbaby.
Right, so there is a differentviable option for Annie and
Smoke than there ever would befor Stack, and we have to take

(01:24:28):
that into consideration.
So it matters that in 1932, inshared cropping land, when there
would never be a freedom, whereis one's viable option for life
, for freedom?
But really to get past thesymptom of death, right, he has
to go through the death moment,where there is his terror and
his fear.
And once he goes through it hesays three things right, she
trying to kill me, I'm so scared.

(01:24:49):
Right, and I love you.
And after that he then has anew vision, a vision separate
from Remick's vision that he'sable to hold on to, even though
Remick has obtained theirmemories.
He's figured out a plan thatincludes Annie and Smoke and
Mary, and that's what his optionwas, the closest thing to
freedom.
And you have to understand, aswe've been talking about the

(01:25:11):
extractive labor right and thecost that it is to be Black in
this world, there will be a cost, but that cost for him matters
Now.
At the same time, 1992 UndeadStacks, offering this kind of
possibility to an 85-year-oldSammy is not as viable as it
would have been in the 1932,right.

(01:25:31):
And so Sammy rejects it.
He says no, I don't want that,even though that night was the
best night for him.
He doesn't hope to engage, Iwant to see something else.
And so he has another plan ofattack, another option that he's
looking for, and so that'swhat's really important with
pessimism.
It doesn't foreclose options,right.

(01:25:55):
It just suggests that theviability of them have to shift.
And we have to be very clearabout these shifting viabilities
, right.
And so that to me, is really,really important, that if we get
past the death moment, right,the undeath or whatever right,
is it viable?
What do we learn from thevampire?
And it's not just aboutoppressive consumption.
Something else is present,especially because Black folks
don't do vampires differently,right, and we see this in the

(01:26:17):
large number of Black vampirelit that we have in film and
culture that we have.
Vampires are done differentlythrough the lens of Blackness,
just like pessimism is donedifferently through the lens of
Blackness when it's donecorrectly.
So it's sitting with theviability of these options.
That might not be for everyone,right?
Annie did not think of that asviable for her, and that's fair,

(01:26:39):
and so what it is is makingsure that, when she made her
choice, everyone did what theycould, specifically Smoke, to
give her her choice, and I thinkthere was a bit of a fear
moment if he would kill her,right, and so spoiler alert,
right?
So there was that moment ofsaying, hey, you get your choice
to think through your options,and that's what freedom is for

(01:27:00):
me, right?
Is that options and that notlimiting and not boundering
those options.
So I think that that'ssomething that keeps coming up
in this as well negotiating whatthose options look like around
consent, around barriers, aroundboundaries, and about what is
possible in certain time periodsand landscapes, specifically
Mississippi Delta, sharecropper1932, with wood, nickel.

(01:27:22):
Right, it's just going to be.
That's what we were never goingto get.
It was a slaughterhouse, got it.

Speaker 1 (01:27:27):
Thank you.
Thank you, that's powerful EFLyo.
Do you have a response to that?

Speaker 2 (01:27:36):
Absolutely echo everything that was said, and
just I did want to touch justvery quickly on what you said
about divinity.
I think it's important tounderstand, and one of the
things that I find so powerfulabout the Orisha tradition and
African spirituality morebroadly is that perfection is
not required for divinity.
The stories of the Orisha, thestories of these divine beings,

(01:28:00):
does not present them as perfect, and this is one of the reasons
why many human beings resonatewith them, because there is not
this understanding that, inorder to be divine, you have to
never have done anything wrong.
You have to never have had sex.
You have to never have, youknow, transgressed, have had sex

(01:28:23):
.
You have to never havetransgressed.
The divinity comes in how youthen move forward from those
moments, what you learn fromthose moments, how you help
others through those moments,and so I think that that's
important and it's a way toescape some of the pessimism
that we may feel when werecognize that we're always
going to fall short.
Right, there's a place wherepeople come to feel like, oh
well, if I can't be perfect,then I might as well reject

(01:28:46):
everything that's spiritual,because spirituality in the
church says that I have to bethis way and if I'm not this way
that I can't be accepted intoit, and so I might as well just
reject it.
And within Ifa and otherAfrican spiritual traditions
there's a place, there's trulythat come as you are, and we
know that there will always betrouble, there will always be

(01:29:07):
problems, but we will alwaysfind solutions to them, and so
that's how we kind of deal withthe pessimism.
We say that it's loss and gainthat make the world.
That's one of our proverbs.
And to know that there's alwaysgoing to be problems, there
will always be situations, butthat we have tools to be able to
work through them.

Speaker 1 (01:29:28):
Thank you.
And you know, we're living in atime where you know that
pessimism is real right.
And then the question of isfreedom attainable?
Is palpable right when we lookat the presidency of Donald
Trump, when we look at theanti-democratic regime that is

(01:29:52):
highly fascist and deeplyauthoritarian, that is rooted in
oligarchy deeply authoritarian,that is rooted in oligarchy
right, when people, you know,mothers and fathers, are having
to run at graduations and leavetheir children because of ICE,
who is actively seeking todeport them.

(01:30:13):
Right when you have Palestiniangenocide and in the Congo,
where there is a war being waged.
In Iran, where you have massincarceration and the rich are
getting rich and the poor getpoor.
Like there's so much Right.
You have this, this, this stormof interlocking systems of

(01:30:35):
oppression and tragedy andcrisis, and the question is real
right that is posed in thatscene, you know, were we ever
intended to be free, right?
And so I sit with that question, particularly on Juneteenth, as
we celebrate freedom, right,you know.
But I would hope, you know, my,my, my sincerest wish is that

(01:31:00):
there's always hope Right, thatthere's always hope that, yes,
we are designed to be free Right, and that we must continue to
do this freedom work, even if wedon't obtain it, for the hope
that our children and ourchildren's children will Right.
So the final question in thescene after the credit Sammy.
Sammy is visited by Mary andStack and they hug.

(01:31:23):
Sammy says that once a week hewakes up paralyzed, reliving
that night, but before the sunwent down he felt like it was
the best day of his life.
He asked if it was the same forStack and and he said no doubt
about it.
It was the last time he saw hisbrother and the last time he
saw the son, just for a fewhours, it was free.

(01:31:46):
What does this scene say aboutthe possible reconciliation
between good and evil, this hugthat happens between the vampire
and the undead, right?
What is happening there?
What is Kugler imagining,perhaps, about this
reconciliation or relationshipbetween good and evil?

(01:32:07):
And is this freedom, perhapsthe destruction of the dichotomy
between good and evil, right?
What do you think is?

Speaker 2 (01:32:24):
happening in this scene.
Ef, I will just say that for me, I didn't see it as a good
versus evil.
I didn't see Stack as beingevil and Sammy as being good.
I saw it as a reunion ofbrothers Right being good.
I saw it as a reunion ofbrothers right, Of the love that
they shared, of who Stack wasbefore he was turned and even

(01:32:44):
who he still continued to be asa vampire.
It's one of those things.
It's like you know,understanding the system that
we're in and understanding thechoice that he made, Like, yeah,
I understand why you did whatyou did.
I understand why you went withit.
I'm glad that you were sparedright, that you're still here,
that there's still someconnection to everything that I

(01:33:07):
knew, because everythingeveryone else that he knew was
gone, and so I saw it as that,as a place of like, look, I'm
not making the choice you made,but I still got love for you and
you have.
Also, you're honoring yourbrother in this agreement that
you made to let me be, and soyou know I appreciate that too.

(01:33:29):
And so there was that placewhere it just felt like even for
Sammy sharing that that day hadbeen the you been the best day
of his life before the tragedyhappened.
And for many of us, right, wehave those situations where we
are living our best lives beforethe tragedy happens, right

(01:33:51):
before something happens thattakes that moment away from us,
and so I think that it reallyjust speaks to the ephemeral
nature of life and how we'renever able to predict what the
next things are that are goingto happen.
There's always going to bestruggle and there's always
going to be challenge, and manytimes the highlight and the

(01:34:13):
highest moments of our life arefollowed by the lowest moments,
and so I think that that scenereally just encapsulated all of
that and the fact that Sammy wasable to find his freedom right
and being able to travel andplay his music, and that that
was freedom for him, and that hewas satisfied with that freedom

(01:34:35):
.
He didn't feel like he neededto the type of freedom that
Stack was offering.

Speaker 1 (01:34:40):

Speaker 3 (01:34:42):
Yeah, I just want to echo that I didn't see it as
good and evil either.
Remember, stack doesn't make thechoice to become a vampire.
He is victimized in that moment, and so he makes do with what
he has and tries to create avision for himself.
But the choice that he does hasis to honor the commitment to
his brother and to Sammy by notgoing after him.
And it is only when he smellsdeath on Sammy does he come to

(01:35:05):
have a conversation, and onceagain, consent is allowed.
Sammy allows them to come in,and so choice and consent become
paramount to their reunion ofsorts.
So, in essence, that is all thegood that we could ever hope to
attain in this world, right,and so also, knowing that Stack
can't see his reflection, so hecan't even see his brother in

(01:35:27):
himself in perpetuity, but yethe has the love of his life,
shows that sometimes there arecosts to freedom or to what we
imagine freedom to be, andsometimes we have to always
weigh our costs in light of ourgrief and our loss.
So that was really importantfor me.

Speaker 1 (01:35:45):
Wow, I really appreciate the reframing that
you guys are offering with thisanalysis, because everyone I'm
talking to shared this questionthe ways in which Stack is
representing vampires wherewe're seeing as generally as an
evil, bad trope and Sammy beingchurch boy, right, representing

(01:36:07):
this good trope, and perhapsthat's an oversimplification.
But Kugler is doing a lot ofdichotomies in this movie, right
, there's a lot of symmetriesand so I viewed it as this good
and evil that embraces at theend, and I was just curious to
know what that reconciliationlooked like.
So thank you for offering thatreframing and, as we close, I

(01:36:30):
just want to just touch on a fewthings that we weren't able to
hit upon or elaborate andexpound on.
But in that motherhood piece,right, isn't it interesting that
we see sammy's dad but not hismom?
We see her.
What tell?

Speaker 3 (01:36:47):
me, mom.
They have an interaction at thevery first part of the film.
He throws water on her as she'swashing on the washboard.
Um, the second time that we seeher and this is how we know
that her, his father, is seen asa bad man.
It's because when he comes inbloodied up and bruised up, the
only person that recognizes inthat moment that he needs help
that something has happened ishis mother.
She stands up and she screamsSammy, and he directs her to sit

(01:37:10):
down.
So once again we see thecontrol of these kind of
hierarchical figures who say andlimit what's possible around
caring for those who are wounded, Because instead of saying to
his son who is bruised andbloody, hey, are you okay?
The first thing we get is he'sbeen touched by sin, right?
And we don't even get any otherconversations past that.

Speaker 1 (01:37:32):
Thank you, because clearly my eyes were closed in
this part.

Speaker 3 (01:37:36):
It's okay, it's a really beautiful moment between
him and his mom, and then hewakes up.
Thank, you.

Speaker 1 (01:37:42):
That's beautiful.
The other piece, when we talkedabout the co-opting, right, you
know, you think about theascendancy of President Barack
Obama, and we heard a lot aboutthis post-racial society, you
know.
And then, with the secondelection of Trump, we know that
this notion is unequivocallyfalse, right, that we aren't
living in a post-racial society,and it didn't take the election
of Trump for us to know thatright.

(01:38:03):
But you know, it's justinteresting to see this
co-opting that happens withRemick, when he says, sir, we
believe in equality and music.
We just came to play, spendmoney and have a good time.
Can't we just want, for onenight, all be family?
Right, and it's this riff oncan we, for all one night, be
free?
Right.
And so you know.

(01:38:24):
And then he plays this song,pick Poor Robin, clean, right,
which could be, you know, alynching song.
And so you know.
And then this kind of messianicrole where Rimmick is saying I'm
your only way out.
You know, the world has leftyou for dead, this world won't
let you fellowship, and I willlet you do this forever.

(01:38:44):
And so we have to be careful ofthe ways in which the ops would
seek to lure us to think thatthey are on our side when we see
the co-opting of movementlanguage such as critical race
theory or DEI or woke, right,that we have to be very careful.
When we see this type ofvalidation from the empire and

(01:39:09):
push back.
Right, that these are wolves insheep clothing, right, and so
we have to be very careful ofthat.
And so you know.
And then, finally, remick saysI want your stories and your
songs.
And, as I conclude, when wethink about the role of music

(01:39:29):
and we weren't able to get thatpiece with Dr Laughing House
gone but we see anotherdichotomy between the sacred and
the profane with music, right,the music in the church, the

(01:39:51):
opening film starting with thislittle light of mine and Sammy
holding this guitar that henever lets go, a juke joint
music over and against thesacredness of church music.
And in order for him to be free, the father saying you have to
let go of your guitar, but Sammynever does.
And as we conclude, onJuneteenth, I encourage us to

(01:40:17):
not let the enemy steal our songor our stories.
And Ryan Coogler is doing justthat in the ways in which he is
reclaiming the narrative anddisrupting dominant storytelling
.
Right, when, where, where youknow, the Klan are the vampires

(01:40:38):
and the African aren't thebeasts?
Right when African spiritualitysaves us and maybe Christianity
does not, where magic protectsus and prayers do not work.
Right that Kugler is doing thisradical disruption and in doing
so it is ensuring that we holdon to our stories and our song

(01:41:03):
and that perhaps we'll have evenmore one night of freedom, but
we'll have freedom futures.
So thank you so much for yourtime on our show.
I just want to quickly inviteyou to drop your handles the
ways in which people can followyou and support your work.
Dr Deanna, would you start?

Speaker 3 (01:41:22):
Yes, I'm on Instagram at DeannaDNLS1, and you can
find me there.
Or Blue Sky at Deanna Monique.

Speaker 2 (01:41:31):
All right.
Thank you so much again forhaving me, dr Nakia, dr Diana,
it was wonderful to connect withyou and spend time, and I am on
all the platforms, so you canfind me at Instagram, facebook,
et cetera, and you can alsoconnect with me at asheireycom.

Speaker 1 (01:41:53):
Awesome, and I would be remiss if we got to do this
rapid round.
So you guys just scream it outat the same time.
Okay, I'm going to give you afew words, phrases, and the
first thing that come to mind Iwant you to say it Okay, you
ready, all right.
Michael B Jordan Twin.
What'd you say?
What'd you say?

Speaker 2 (01:42:13):
I said fine.

Speaker 1 (01:42:21):
Ryan Coogler brilliance visionary but a
culture necessary blood

Speaker 2 (01:42:34):
binding cathartic vampire joy complex.
Binding Cathartic Vampire JoyComplex.

Speaker 1 (01:42:43):
Black women.

Speaker 2 (01:42:45):
Divine.

Speaker 1 (01:42:47):
Freedom.

Speaker 2 (01:42:50):
Joyful.

Speaker 1 (01:42:53):
Bourbon.
Drunk Sips, drunk sips and onthe fourth anniversary
Abolitionist Sanctuarycongratulations.
So necessary, so very necessarythank you for joining this
conversation on the AbolitionistSanctuary podcast.

(01:43:15):
Please download and share onall platforms.
Again, I am your host, reverendDr Nakia Smith-Robert, founder
and executive director ofAbolitionist Sanctuary.
Find us on YouTube, instagram,facebook and download our social
mobile app, bringing TogetherAbolitionists and People who
Love Freedom.
Also, enroll in our courses andbecome certified at

(01:43:36):
abolitionacademycom.
Don't forget to become a memberand join our mailing list at
abolitionistsanctuaryorg.
As we conclude this episode,remember that abolition is not
only a practice, but it is a wayof life, and for me, abolition
is my religion.
Thank you so much.
Bye.

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