October 14, 2022 • 40 mins
In this episode we talked with our good friend Robert Didham. He is Centre Director and Associate Professor at the Centre for Collaborative Learning for Sustainable Development Faculty of Education, Inland Norway University of Applied Sciences.
We talked to Robert about education for sustainable development and its place in Agenda 2030 as SDG 4. He explained how SDG 4 takes a comprehensive focus on education when compared to earlier approaches such as the Millennium Development Goals. We then discussed some of the different facets of education such as a more qualitative view on education that is being promoted including focus on youth, technical vocational education and training, gender, jobs and education as lifelong learning.
This episode is divided into two parts to allow for more space for discussion. Part two focuses more on Robert’s work on education for sustainable development, and what approaches to education are needed to help achieve important sustainable development and climate goals. But that will be in our next release.
At small correction shall be noted: At 2:20 in the recording, when Robert was referring to the international framework that is the follow-up to the Global Action Programme on Education for Sustainable Development, he misnamed this framework by referring to it as the Education for 2030 framework, and it should have been correctly referred to the Education for Sustainable Development (ESD) for 2030 framework.
Please visit ESD for 2030 framework and the subsequent ESD for 2030 roadmap for further information on these initiatives.
"About Sustainability..." is a podcast brought to you by the Institute for Global Environmental Strategies (IGES), an environmental policy think-tank based in Hayama, Japan. IGES experts are concerned with environmental and sustainability challenges. Everything shared on the podcast will be off-the-cuff discussion, and any viewpoints expressed are those held by the speaker at the time of recording. They are not necessarily official IGES positions.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Simon (00:00):
Hi, how are you?
In this episode, wetalked to our good friend
and former colleague,Robert Didham.
He now works as AssociateProfessor in the Inland Norway
University of Applied Sciences.
He's an expert on educationand sustainable development,
so that's why he's a perfectperson to talk to about
SDG4 on education.
In today's episode,for example, we discussed how
(00:22):
the definition of education isever evolving, resulting in a
focus that has shifted fromproviding access to primary
schooling to nowoffer lifelong learning
opportunities for everyone.
And since you're already here,do join us and listen in.
(00:49):
Could you tell us alittle bit about yourself?
Robert (00:51):
I'm based at Inland Norway University of
Applied Sciences, and there,I am the director of a centre
that's both a research andteaching centre, the Center for
Collaborative Learningfor Sustainable Development.
And I also holdthe UNESCO Chair on Education
for Sustainable Lifestyles.
(01:12):
And through that work,I've been actively involved
with both programmes run byUNESCO and UN Environment on
Education for SustainableDevelopment and Education for
Sustainable Consumption,and have had
many different experiences,having worked in a lot in Asia
during what was theUN Decade of Education for
(01:34):
Sustainable Development,which went from 2005 to 2014.
That was followed up by GlobalAction Program on Education for
Sustainable Development that Iwas an active part of.
First, I co-chaired thePriority Network on
Advancing Policy, and later Ico-chaired the Network
(01:56):
on Teacher Education.
And that program, the GlobalAction Program, ran from
2015 to 2019.
And as that came to an end,there was of course, a need to
further strengthen the link ofthe role that education played
within theSustainable Development Goals.
And a new framework came outin 2020, that is the [Education
(02:21):
for Sustainable Development(ESD) 2030], with a real focus
on including and strengtheningthe role that education can
play in supporting thesustainable development agenda
and really starting to thinkabout the role that education
plays in the transformationthat is needed to achieve the
(02:42):
global sustainabledevelopment agenda.
Simon (02:45):
Thanks, Rob.
So, well, we can say thateducation is important for
sustainable developmentin many ways.
And for example, SDG4 focuseson ensuring inclusive and
equitable quality education andpromot[ing] lifelong learning
opportunities for all.
It seems very broad.
I understand that education hasbeen the focus not only for
(03:08):
the SDGs, but actually also inthe predecessor to the SDGs,
the MillenniumDevelopment Goals (MDGs).
Can you say a little bit about,like, what's the focus on
education in relation tosustainability today compared
to what role it played fordevelopment 20 years ago?
How is it different?
Robert (03:24):
I mean, we have two different levels.
The first level - the same inthe relationship between the
Millennium Development Goalsand the Sustainable Development
Goals - is that we actually seein the Sustainable Development
Goals a joiningof two international
development tracks.
And that was more of the trackon environmental sustainability
(03:46):
that had started out of the RioEarth Summit and followed up
through that the continuationof different sustainable
development agendas.
And then there was the humandevelopment track, which was
more in focus in theMillennium Development Goals.
While there wasone Millennium Development goal
on environmental sustainability,it kind of fell off the actual
agenda there because theydidn't put any targets behind
(04:09):
it for measurement.
And in education,we've had the same.
The framing of the MillenniumDevelopment Goal 2 on education
really came out of a move- aninternational movement around
education for all, which sawthe value and very large
(04:29):
importance that education playsin supporting human development
goals and that education hasvery strong correlative links
with- as youimprove education, you achieve
improvements in otherdevelopment goals -
increased health,reduce poverty, etc.
But you also see this link thatthat now in the SDGs, you have
(04:53):
the combination of a need tofocus on sustainability within
education and you have anuplifting of actually a focus
on the quality and therelevance that that education
has to the world around.
And if you look at the originalMillennium Development Goal 2,
it really wasonly focused on achieving
(05:14):
universal primary education.
And the main focus there in themeasurements was on the access
and attainment of education.
Now, while there's severalother features that we can go
through that make the SDG4 muchmore comprehensive, I would
think one of the key and mostimportant differences is
(05:36):
that statement, right in theoverall goal about
quality of education.
And it's not just educationfor all, but it's quality
education for all.
And that is really a distinctdifference between the
Millennium Development Goal2 and SDG4.
Simon (05:51):
So we went from quantity to quality.
Robert (05:54):
Yes, but we keep- we keep some level of quantity and
some level of attainment,but we move to quality.
Erin (06:00):
Okay, but how is quality defined?
Robert (06:03):
That is a trickier issue and there's probably many
different definitions onwhat is quality.
But I mean, one aspect ofquality would be the relevance
of the education for- I mean,at the first level,
employability,real world skills,
life skills, ability toactually learn things like
(06:26):
democra- how to engage indemocratic processes, how to be
part of the decision making allaround what a sustainable
future would look like,that there is a certain level
of relevance and applicationof that education.
We have had other traditionaltrends in education where,
you know, it's primarily basedaround "can you memorise this,
(06:47):
can you repeat it in a test?"and how do you actually use a
lot of that information in thereal world is not always clear.
Erin (06:56):
And is there kind of like a universal standard for
education?
Like at the endof secondary school, you need
to have achieved X, Y and Z,or is it kind of like
determined based on thespecific context?
Robert (07:11):
There is not one universal standard.
I mean...
Erin (07:14):
Okay.
Robert (07:15):
And when we talk about quality of education,
there's also a debate on reallywhat that means and how we
would assess it,most importantly.
And what often happens is,there's kind of this ideal
understanding ofquality education, which is
about equipping learners withthe necessary knowledge and
(07:36):
skills and also the values andthe competency development that
allows them to engage in theworld in a meaningful way.
Assessing that can be avery challenging thing.
So we fall back a little bit interms of how do we measure
quality to what can we assess.
And so if we were saying thatthere was a universal standard
for quality of education basedon what tests are available,
(08:01):
we would be talking about thetests like PISA and TIMSS and
the tests that are run bythe OECD, that are the kind of
comprehensive tests that aresupposed to show at different
at different grade levels whathave been the
level of achievement.
So not just attainment,but also the achievement
(08:23):
that students have.
So when we get beyond the MDGwhere we talk about access
and attainment, we start tothen move into quality,
where we talk about achievement.
And then ideally, when we'reactually talking about
the relevance, we're talkingabout the adaptability of that
education to apply indifferent ways, in meaningful
ways in your own life.
Testing that adaptabilityaspect is the
(08:44):
more challenging part.
So what we end up testing isthe achievement, but by testing
only the achievement, we kindof set some- we kind of set
that into certain boxes andconfines of what that
achievement would be.
There are other discussionswithin the field,
and especially in the specificarea of education for
(09:06):
sustainable development thatare really looking to talk
about what are sustainabilitycompetencies and how we
work with this.
And this is what we often callto some of the higher
order thinking skills,our critical thinking and our
connectedness to sustainability,our ability
to think in systems andthink holistically, our ability
to solve problems, etc.
Simon (09:28):
Maybe if we look at some of the targets that are
under SDG4, maybe we can sortof exemplify where the quality
aspect comes in, because Ithink that, for example,
I mean, if you lookat inclusiveness, I think
Target 4.1 focuses on educationfor both girls and boys and
Target 4.2 focuses onearly childhood education.
(09:52):
So I suppose that means daycareand kindergarten and what's
been taught tothe children there.
So there is a focuson on different on the human
experience atdifferent levels, you know,
from very early childhood to-even to while you're working.
Because there's also that focuson lifelong learning,
isn't there?
There's a whole lot of thingsin the different SDG targets,
(10:15):
isn't there, Rob?
Robert (10:16):
Yes.
And an overall focus onenabling lifelong learning.
And that is- I mean, that couldbe one of the key ways that you
talk about what is quality.
Your "what you've gained",your skills about how you
actually find knowledge andlook at problems
and solve problems.
It goes beyond what you learnin the classroom and it's
(10:38):
something that you can continueto use in your everyday life.
You can continue to use in yoursociety and in your work with
your communityon sustainability, that you can
carry that work forward aslearning processes and all
of that, because you've notjust gained a set
of knowledge, but you've gaineda broader set of skills and
competencies that allow you tocontinue to learn from your
(11:03):
daily experiences and tocritically reflect on them in
a meaningful way.
But we do see a lot- I mean,the first outcome targets still
aim a little bit more aboutaccess and attainment, but it's
a much- it really broadens.
If we think thatMDG2 was focused on only
(11:24):
primary education and, while itwas a very successful overall -
the work to increaseaccess and attainment in
primary education, it didnot achieve 100%.
And so the ambition and SDG4,when they not only have
primary education, but now theysay secondary education
(11:47):
for all, as well as earlychildhood and pre-primary
education for all, and also addin not access for everyone,
but that there is equal accessto opportunities for higher
education and technicaland vocational education.
I mean, this is reallybroadening the mandate of what
(12:09):
is education and what it is andreally pushing forward that a
very strong understanding.
And to me, I take it as anunderstanding where we go back
all the way to 1948,where education is enshrined as
a human right in the UniversalDeclaration of Human Rights.
This is an extension of thathuman right to education at a
(12:32):
scale that is, I don't know,three or four times multitude
over than what we had before.
So, I mean, it's extremelyambitious to extend educational
attainment and achievement tothat large of a scale.
But in there, when you go intothe indicators around the
(12:53):
targets and you go intosome of the specific aspects,
especially when you go intoTarget 4.7 where they really
highlight education forsustainability and for global
citizenship and they start tolook at really talking about
what is the componentsof quality education, you have
much more than just focusingon the numbers.
(13:14):
You really start to have astrong discussion about what
does good education look like,how do you provide that?
And when you go into the meansof implementation about a safe
and inclusivelearning environment,
about good quality ofteacher training,
which is fundamental.
I mean, if you want goodquality education, the quality
(13:35):
of teacher training is primary.
I mean, this isreally the foundation.
At the next level, it's thelearning environment and
especially that they have safelearning environments,
that they have learningenvironments that are inclusive
and that all peoplehave access to.
But I mean, it's a second stepunder good teachers.
(13:55):
I mean, there are examples of,you know, good teaching
happening under the tree andin a village.
That's not the ideal setting,but it can work if you have a
teacher who's inspired to do so.
So there's quite a broadeningof understanding of what are
really the components that leadto a quality level of education.
Bob (14:16):
Just kind of stepping back to the targets, again, I read
4.1 being equal in access toboth primary and secondary and
4.2 being pre-primary and then4.3 being technical, vocational
and tertiary education.
But then 4.4 is substantiallyincrease the number of youth
(14:38):
and adults who haverelevant skills,
including technical andvocational skills,
skills for employment.
What's kind of the differencebetween 4.4 and those first
three?
It seems like approaching thesame thing from
different angles, unless I'mnot quite getting it.
Robert (14:53):
With the first [target] on quality, primary and
secondary education for all.
You have- I mean, it's actuallyas education for all..
.
I mean, the way it was writtenthen is basically universal
access to primary and secondaryeducation or universal
attainment of primaryand secondary education.
And then putting the quality onfront enhances that dimension.
(15:16):
There is a difference in thekind of universal access and
attainment that is in relationto primary and secondary,
as well as alsoearly childhood education.
Then with the higher education,it's equal access.
It's not that everyone shouldattain a higher
education level, but everyoneshould have the opportunity
(15:37):
to do so.
And there- especially thereshould not be barriers based on
income level and the costof higher education.
That means someone who reallyhas a desire and has a strong
ability for higher educationcannot access
that higher education.
But when we get into therelevant skills for work,
it's talking about one of theimportant things, of course-
(15:57):
that education needs todeliver and strengthen.
So if we take the first threeare really about, I mean,
more of the structural level of"what is provided" and "what is
made available", that when weget into 4.4, which is relevant
skills for work, it's talkingabout part of what does
(16:18):
education actually provideto the learners.
Bob (16:20):
Okay, that makes sense.
Simon (16:22):
It's almost- I mean, the logic is maybe also like,
you start with education forkids and then you have
education and in primary,secondary and then access to
universities for those thatfeel- or they are equipped or
are interested in going thatin that direction.
And then it moves towardskeeping the door open for
(16:43):
having education opportunitieswhile you're working,
you know, so that you-so that this lifelong education
aspect comes in.
It's not like education today,I suppose, should be seen as
something that we do our entirelife and not the way it was
perhaps traditionally viewed,where you educate yourself to
become a blacksmith whenyou are, I don't know, 12 years
(17:05):
old and then youare a blacksmith.
But...
whereas today, maybe there'sa greater flexibility.
Robert (17:11):
And there's a continued learning.
And I mean, if we're puttingthis relevance of the totality
of the sustainabledevelopment agenda, I mean,
we are all very aware that-I mean, some of the knowledge
we need, some of the solutionswe need - we don't
have them yet.
We need to work tofind new solutions.
That takes new learning.
That takes new understanding.
(17:33):
That takes each of us or isable to not get locked into the
scientific understandings thatwe gained potentially in
education 20, 30, 40years ago because that
science has changed.
Our understanding of theworld has changed.
We need to know how to bringthat in and adapt that to our
overall kind ofour self, our understanding,
(17:55):
and constantly workwith those issues.
And we- so much of sustainabledevelopment is also context
related and the solutions thatwork are context relevant.
So we might have a solutionhere that can be applied in
Norway that works well.
But if we take that to Japan,if we take that to
(18:15):
southern Africa, the samesolution won't work in the same
way in different context.
So also having that ability tolearn from context and learn to
appreciate those subtleties isa lifelong learning skill that
takes a long time to developand facilitate the growth of-
through an educational process.
(18:36):
But that is something thatideally people will take
forward throughout their lifeto work with issues related to
sustainability and beyond.
Simon (18:45):
So you're saying that- I mean, so it's interesting
to me, it's like SDG4...
Both have this important focuson education and carry forward
this important focuson education, but broaden it
and turn it into a taskthat we have to deal with
or tackle or...
You know, I mean,lifelong learning.
It's something we haveto do our whole lives.
(19:06):
But it also opens thedoor for bringing in new
kinds of knowledge, rather thanjust saying you teach something
and you there you have arrivedat it and now you go out and
you do your thing onthe labour market.
You could say it's challenging- an outdated perspective on
education and knowledge,saying that this changes as we
move through time.
Robert (19:27):
Yeah.
I mean, for sure, I think -maybe not everywhere, but at
least in our understanding ofthe work that
education is doing.
I think, relatively,say, across the world, there is
a good understanding thateducation is no longer working
with kind of finiteand fixed knowledge.
Knowledge is dynamic,knowledge is changing,
(19:48):
knowledge is adaptable, and thelearning process has to
work with that.
I think most teachers,most educators
would appreciate that.
I mean, education is, as alearning process is also a
process of discovery and aprocess of finding knowledge
and finding inquiry andinvestigating our- each learner
(20:09):
has to be able to do that andnot just receive knowledge in
a transmissive way.
However, with that said,when we look at practices
of education, I mean,especially when we look at even
practices in universities wherethere's still a tendency,
a large tendency towardslecture-based learning,
(20:31):
I mean, lecture-based learninggoes all the way back to the
very first universities,where, if we put it in
perspective - that you didn'thave printing presses,
people didn't haveaccess to books.
The lecturer sat at the frontof the room and read the one
book to all the students so thestudents could have access to
the knowledge in that book.
(20:51):
And at that point,it was very powerful.
I mean, that was the knowledgeand that was the only way you
could get the knowledge.
But it was kind of treated as"this is fixed knowledge and
that it doesn't change,so you just receive it".
But a lot of our educationalapproaches have not changed,
even though our understandingof what education is supposed
(21:11):
to do has changed dramatically.
We haven't always evolved inquite a way.
I mean, that's- it's kind ofrude to say that to many,
many colleagues and manyteachers around the world who
are very progressive in whatthey do and are finding new and
innovative approaches to engagestudents in active ways.
But...
I think still we see often,kind of, the approaches to
(21:35):
learning are still ina transmissive way.
And we- based on a textbook andbased on sharing information
from a textbook.
But that is changing and thatis part of the change that is
being talked about in SDG4,when quality education and
lifelong learning play such animportant role in the actual
framing of the goal.
But those are maybe subtletiesthat are, you know,
(21:58):
missed outside ofthe education field.
Specifically, when they look atthe SDG4, they see the
quantitative aspect still,because the targets - "we have
to achieve these targets,we need to show the numbers
that we are achievingthe targets", but it within the
goal and within the context ofthat goal, there's a lot of
these more subtle features thatare about the progressive
change of education to reallyenhance the relevance of
(22:21):
the learning, to really enhancethe skill and competency
development of the learners.
Bob (22:26):
I've got two questions that I kind of want to dig into.
One is, I'm curious about whatthis change in the educational
system looks like in practicewhen you're going away from
being transmissive and- is itjust being more interactive and
making sure that students arecoming up with- are discovering
(22:47):
this for themselves in aninteractive process with
the teacher or...
Yeah.
What does that kindof look like ?
is one [question].
And then the otherone is just, looking through
the indicators - they, at leaston the site that I'm
looking on, they seem alittle bit vague.
There's nothing that you caneffectively really measure on
the ones that I've lookedat so far.
(23:09):
So how are we doing andhow do we know how we're doing?
Robert (23:12):
There are a lot of dimensions to what kind of
approaches to quality educationlook like, and, especially when
applied to quality educationfor sustainable development,
there's a lot of discussionaround this too.
But, I mean, one of the keyones which you highlighted,
(23:33):
Bob, is the roleof active learning and
the engaged learner, that thelearner is really out doing a
lot- doing the discovery indifferent ways that can be in
the classroom,doing different projects,
doing different formsof investigation,
working with problem-solving.
That can be even going out anddoing some kind of real world
(23:53):
engagement and interaction inthe learning process.
Um, it's also important when wetalk about active learning that
it's coupled upwith collaborative learning.
That the learning process isn'tjust an "each individual
learner kind of in their own"-and actually it's a very big
shift within the educationalfield that, I mean, the kind of
the more historical traditionis a very kind of competitive
(24:15):
sense in education.
If I want to bethe best student in the class,
that means everyone else has tobe worse than me.
Um, and it's kind of beentreated that- I mean, you as an
individual are the onetrying to succeed, to be
the top, not changing it whereactually learning is a
cooperative process and welearn together, we work
(24:37):
together and in doing so,we actually enhance
each other's learning.
And part of learning is basedon dialogue and deliberation
with each other.
And if we think about how do weapply- what that means in terms
of sustainability, if we aregoing to work together to
actually define and determinewhat a sustainable future
should look like and what wewant from it, we need that
(24:59):
process of collaborative andcooperative learning to be
part of that.
But there are otherfeatures too, and some of it
goes even- I mean, at the kindof overall framework for
learning that has created theworldview or the paradigm
that is shaped.
And so here we- I mean, we havea kind of "what is the context
(25:22):
of a framework focused onsustainable development" and
looking at things in moreintegrated ways, looking at
things across systems,understanding
the interconnections, not justdividing things into different
boxes and not seeingthe whole, but having little
parts and separate parts.
And that's been- I mean,we have disciplines and
(25:44):
subjects that take ontheir own areas of expertise,
but traditionally, there's notanything really
bringing those together.
It's not to say thatdisciplines are not valuable.
They've been extremely valuablethrough- from the Enlightenment
Era forward to advance knowledgeand advance understanding.
But as they've gotten moreniche and more divided,
(26:08):
they've also ended up workingto separate our knowledge into
these finite parts and intothese separate areas where we
don't have an overall meaningand overall understanding,
and we can't see how theenvironmental and the social
and the economic and thecultural dimensions of
sustainability work together ina meaningful way.
And we are challenged to talkabout the complexity and the
(26:30):
tradeoffs that we have to- wehave to deal with when we're
talking about sustainabilitywork because of.
So at one level,it's fundamental- There's a
fundamental part about changingthe way that we work
with knowledge, that we workwith learning, reshaping the
way that we kind of effectivelyorder that understanding in our
own minds, how we order andencode different knowledge,
(26:55):
different information thatwe're receiving, and what is
the the larger schema that webring it together with.
And then that also implies intothe way that we look at and
investigate and how we we goout and draw knowledge from
different parts of the world.
But there are- I mean,there's many different parts of
(27:17):
really what makeup quality education.
And another aspect we talk-I mean, we can talk about what
are the teacher's roles?
And another exampl- animportant example there is the
responsibility of the teacherto meet each learner at his or
her own place and really toengage those individual
(27:37):
learners in the learning in away that motivates them.
Finding what you can work withas a teacher to bring them into
something that is exciting,not just teaching for a class
where you are only focused onthe handful of students who are
the top students and come tothe top and you kind of teach
to them and youlet everyone else fall behind.
(28:00):
But really making sure thattime is spent to engage each
and every student.
And that's- thatcan be difficult.
That can be difficult becauseof, in a very
simple structural way, the- Imean, rule, I mean,
policy set- policies on whatare the student-teacher ratio.
And I mean, so when theeducational policies are
(28:23):
focused on improving qualityof education, I've already said
that the training of teachersis fundamentally important.
Another thing that you start tosee is that the number of
students per individual teacher- that ratio that is set in
policy begins to lower becausethey see the need for the
teacher to be able to spendtime with each student
(28:46):
individually and engage them iscritically important to the
quality of education.
So there's many differentfacets that can enhance quality
of education and more than Ican go through here.
But active, engaged learningis really important.
The understanding of,I would say, looking at-
changing learning to be acooperative process and then
(29:08):
working withinterconnections in learning,
not kind of- not separate andnot independent knowledge,
but to really see thingsin interconnected ways.
These are some of the bigfocuses in terms of the work.
In terms of the indicators andwhere education is - on the
(29:31):
second question,that is challenging.
I mean, we see- wehave things around.
I mean, still all the reportingis on access and attainment and
what is happening there.
And there are stillimprovements being made,
but there are still challengesthat go back even to the work
(29:54):
in the era of MDG2 that wefound challenging globally.
And that's- I mean, early onin MDG2, there was tremendous
success made in increasingenrolment rates
in primary education.
And if the rate that that wasoccurring had continued through
(30:15):
the 15 years of the MillenniumDevelopment Goals, we would
have achieved 100%.
However, when they get- in somecountries and in some places
around the world anddifferent places,
different reasons, but as theygot to maybe 80% access rate-
enrolment rates, they foundthat the last 20%, the same
(30:40):
solutions that hadworked before, that didn't work
for the last 20% because thesewere different groups of people
that were either- they weremore vulnerable, they were
more marginalised groups.
How do you provide the sametype of educational solutions
to people livingin extreme poverty?
How do you provide the sametypes of educational solutions
(31:03):
to nomadic communities?
So there was a formulathat had worked.
I mean, finance [was]part of it.
I mean, international financeand overseas development aid
supported to drive thesesolutions forward
made tremendous impacts.
But they got stuck at somepoint- that same solution
(31:26):
couldn't continue to solve itfor- same solution for everyone.
There have been some efforts tohow we address the marginalised
groups more, but it'sstill a challenge.
And then with the requirementto extend that not only from
primary up into secondary andalso down into
early childhood, I mean, it's alarge- it requires a large
(31:49):
amount of resources.
And those I think where we seethat there's still challenges -
those resources aren't beingmet in the way that
the commitments are.
And that's both interms of national financing
of education.
There are targets for how muchpercent of national financing
(32:10):
is spent on education, and manycountries aren't meeting that.
There's also targets related tooverseas development aid (ODA)
in education and, I mean,a lot of the ODA targets
aren't being met.
And then there's something veryspecific nuances in
education finance, where a lotof that is being spent actually
(32:32):
lands back in the country- ofthe financing country.
So a country - a wealthycountry - gives financing to
give scholarships for forpeople from another country to
come to their country to takeuniversity in their country.
That means theactual financing, the money is
(32:52):
spent back in thecountry who gave them money.
And we also know that oftenleads to brain drain and takes
off- takes the best people froma country out of the country.
And they, in many cases,they don't return home.
If we were- if that financialaid was really being fair
and just, it would be focusedmuch more on building up and
(33:13):
strengthening the educationalinstitutions and especially the
higher education institutionswithin the target country or
the recipient country.
Simon (33:23):
Why we invest in education, why governments
invest in education, you know,different forms of education at
different stages and age groups.
And sometimes those objectives-seems to me that they are at
odds with each other.
Because also, I mean, if youshould be crude, like what's
the payoff ofan investment in education?
(33:48):
It's a long term thing, right?
Because I mean, I don'tknow - what's the end goal?
Is that increased meaning oflife or increased life
satisfaction at the level ofthe individual, or is it jobs,
job creation, contribution tothe economy of the country,
or is it ticking a box on ODAso that you have done something
(34:11):
on education and supported somemoney to UNESCO that takes care
of education?
So I think there areseveral different odds.
But it- but is it challenging,Rob, when the payoff - I don't
like to use the word 'payoff',but - when the benefits of
investments in education seemto be so far down the line,
I mean, will we even meet them?
Robert (34:30):
Um, I think it...
It's not that it's difficult.
The issue is that it sometimesdoesn't take priority over
other development investmentsthat have
shorter return periods.
But with that said,it is very well understood.
It's very well documented theimportance of education and the
(34:54):
centrality of education inachieving socioeconomic
developmentand human well-being.
And to do that ina way that is sustainable.
I mean, just namea few of the things.
I mean, education is recognisedas having one of the highest
long term returns on investmentof all development goals.
It's- it is long term.
(35:14):
I mean, you're talking...
You invest in education in a...
For a generation of of youth.
You're taking 10, 15, 20 yearsof investment until you really
see the benefits back.
But the benefits thatthey see, I mean, are clear
links between- increased levelsof educational attainment are
linked to improved health,improved disease prevention,
(35:38):
reduce child mortality,increased levels of equity and
inequality in societies,larger levels of civic
participation and engagementin decision making.
And then the ones that really-I mean, you know, the policy
makers like are, there are verydirect correlations between
(35:59):
increased levels of educationalattainment and increased
individual earning potential,as well as increased national
GDP growth rates.
And they see, I mean, this is aeconomic formula that has been
tested around the world for,I think, 50, 60 years now that
(36:22):
has looked at data andshows that as, at a
national level, as theattainment level,
the educational attainmentlevel goes up by a year at
a national level, that isroughly correlated with an
increase in GDP growth rate ofabout a half percent (increase
(36:47):
for each increase of- standardaverage increase of a year
of educational attainment).
So it's that- I mean, when Isay a "half percent growth",
you know, that may not soundlike large, but when you look
at what growth rates are,that's really quite
a significant improvement.
If you're talking, you can gofrom what they say, what they
(37:09):
have in the go here of movingfrom universal primary
education touniversal secondary education.
I mean, that's another four orfive years of education.
Then you're talking 2% increasein growth rateif that was a
full attainment that you hadn'thad before and that's the level
(37:31):
of increase you achieve.
So I mean, it's hasvery strong, very strong
correlations to many of theother development goals.
And that is why education as awhole has been highlighted as
one of the very fundamentalmeans of implementation for all
of the SDGs.
And you also see education asroles of education listed in
(37:55):
several targets of other SDGs.
I mean, if we wantto work on the SDG on
climate change ([SDG13]),there needs to be better
education about climate change.
We need to have a globalunderstanding about what we're
dealing with,the seriousness of it.
We need to have further work onthat and we see those tied
(38:15):
to many things.
We see those both inthe social goals related to
health and equity.
We see in gender equality.
We see educational targetsrelated to the environmental
goals where there arestronger scientific needs.
We see education as a primarymeans of implementation.
And then, as I'vejust mentioned, the correlation
(38:37):
to the economic goals and,you know, employability and
economic growth aspects are allvery correlated with
education's role too.
Simon (38:50):
Hey, Simon here.
The conversation ended up beinga bit longer than we
usually release, and we wantedto be mindful of how much time
you can devote to an episode.
So we are splittingthis episode here.
Please join us next timefor the rest.
Bob (39:07):
Thank you for listening to About Sustainability...
Please subscribe atpodcast.iges.jp or search
for About Sustainability...
wherever you normallyget your podcasts.
If you've got feedback, you canreview us on your podcast
directory of choice or reachout on Twitter @IGES_EN.
(39:30):
About Sustainability...
is produced by the Institute forGlobal Environmental Strategies.
Any views expressed during thepodcast are those of the
speaker at the time ofrecording and do not
necessarily reflect theviews of IGES.
Thank you for choosing to spendyour time with us.
We don't take that lightly andwe hope you'll join
us next time.
Hi, how are you?
In this episode, wetalked to our good friend
and former colleague,Robert Didham.
He now works as AssociateProfessor in the Inland Norway
University of Applied Sciences.
He's an expert on educationand sustainable development,
so that's why he's a perfectperson to talk to about
SDG4 on education.
In today's episode,for example, we discussed how
(00:22):
the definition of education isever evolving, resulting in a
focus that has shifted fromproviding access to primary
schooling to nowoffer lifelong learning
opportunities for everyone.
And since you're already here,do join us and listen in.
(00:49):
Could you tell us alittle bit about yourself?
Robert (00:51):
I'm based at Inland Norway University of
Applied Sciences, and there,I am the director of a centre
that's both a research andteaching centre, the Center for
Collaborative Learningfor Sustainable Development.
And I also holdthe UNESCO Chair on Education
for Sustainable Lifestyles.
(01:12):
And through that work,I've been actively involved
with both programmes run byUNESCO and UN Environment on
Education for SustainableDevelopment and Education for
Sustainable Consumption,and have had
many different experiences,having worked in a lot in Asia
during what was theUN Decade of Education for
(01:34):
Sustainable Development,which went from 2005 to 2014.
That was followed up by GlobalAction Program on Education for
Sustainable Development that Iwas an active part of.
First, I co-chaired thePriority Network on
Advancing Policy, and later Ico-chaired the Network
(01:56):
on Teacher Education.
And that program, the GlobalAction Program, ran from
2015 to 2019.
And as that came to an end,there was of course, a need to
further strengthen the link ofthe role that education played
within theSustainable Development Goals.
And a new framework came outin 2020, that is the [Education
(02:21):
for Sustainable Development(ESD) 2030], with a real focus
on including and strengtheningthe role that education can
play in supporting thesustainable development agenda
and really starting to thinkabout the role that education
plays in the transformationthat is needed to achieve the
(02:42):
global sustainabledevelopment agenda.
Simon (02:45):
Thanks, Rob.
So, well, we can say thateducation is important for
sustainable developmentin many ways.
And for example, SDG4 focuseson ensuring inclusive and
equitable quality education andpromot[ing] lifelong learning
opportunities for all.
It seems very broad.
I understand that education hasbeen the focus not only for
(03:08):
the SDGs, but actually also inthe predecessor to the SDGs,
the MillenniumDevelopment Goals (MDGs).
Can you say a little bit about,like, what's the focus on
education in relation tosustainability today compared
to what role it played fordevelopment 20 years ago?
How is it different?
Robert (03:24):
I mean, we have two different levels.
The first level - the same inthe relationship between the
Millennium Development Goalsand the Sustainable Development
Goals - is that we actually seein the Sustainable Development
Goals a joiningof two international
development tracks.
And that was more of the trackon environmental sustainability
(03:46):
that had started out of the RioEarth Summit and followed up
through that the continuationof different sustainable
development agendas.
And then there was the humandevelopment track, which was
more in focus in theMillennium Development Goals.
While there wasone Millennium Development goal
on environmental sustainability,it kind of fell off the actual
agenda there because theydidn't put any targets behind
(04:09):
it for measurement.
And in education,we've had the same.
The framing of the MillenniumDevelopment Goal 2 on education
really came out of a move- aninternational movement around
education for all, which sawthe value and very large
(04:29):
importance that education playsin supporting human development
goals and that education hasvery strong correlative links
with- as youimprove education, you achieve
improvements in otherdevelopment goals -
increased health,reduce poverty, etc.
But you also see this link thatthat now in the SDGs, you have
(04:53):
the combination of a need tofocus on sustainability within
education and you have anuplifting of actually a focus
on the quality and therelevance that that education
has to the world around.
And if you look at the originalMillennium Development Goal 2,
it really wasonly focused on achieving
(05:14):
universal primary education.
And the main focus there in themeasurements was on the access
and attainment of education.
Now, while there's severalother features that we can go
through that make the SDG4 muchmore comprehensive, I would
think one of the key and mostimportant differences is
(05:36):
that statement, right in theoverall goal about
quality of education.
And it's not just educationfor all, but it's quality
education for all.
And that is really a distinctdifference between the
Millennium Development Goal2 and SDG4.
Simon (05:51):
So we went from quantity to quality.
Robert (05:54):
Yes, but we keep- we keep some level of quantity and
some level of attainment,but we move to quality.
Erin (06:00):
Okay, but how is quality defined?
Robert (06:03):
That is a trickier issue and there's probably many
different definitions onwhat is quality.
But I mean, one aspect ofquality would be the relevance
of the education for- I mean,at the first level,
employability,real world skills,
life skills, ability toactually learn things like
(06:26):
democra- how to engage indemocratic processes, how to be
part of the decision making allaround what a sustainable
future would look like,that there is a certain level
of relevance and applicationof that education.
We have had other traditionaltrends in education where,
you know, it's primarily basedaround "can you memorise this,
(06:47):
can you repeat it in a test?"and how do you actually use a
lot of that information in thereal world is not always clear.
Erin (06:56):
And is there kind of like a universal standard for
education?
Like at the endof secondary school, you need
to have achieved X, Y and Z,or is it kind of like
determined based on thespecific context?
Robert (07:11):
There is not one universal standard.
I mean...
Erin (07:14):
Okay.
Robert (07:15):
And when we talk about quality of education,
there's also a debate on reallywhat that means and how we
would assess it,most importantly.
And what often happens is,there's kind of this ideal
understanding ofquality education, which is
about equipping learners withthe necessary knowledge and
(07:36):
skills and also the values andthe competency development that
allows them to engage in theworld in a meaningful way.
Assessing that can be avery challenging thing.
So we fall back a little bit interms of how do we measure
quality to what can we assess.
And so if we were saying thatthere was a universal standard
for quality of education basedon what tests are available,
(08:01):
we would be talking about thetests like PISA and TIMSS and
the tests that are run bythe OECD, that are the kind of
comprehensive tests that aresupposed to show at different
at different grade levels whathave been the
level of achievement.
So not just attainment,but also the achievement
(08:23):
that students have.
So when we get beyond the MDGwhere we talk about access
and attainment, we start tothen move into quality,
where we talk about achievement.
And then ideally, when we'reactually talking about
the relevance, we're talkingabout the adaptability of that
education to apply indifferent ways, in meaningful
ways in your own life.
Testing that adaptabilityaspect is the
(08:44):
more challenging part.
So what we end up testing isthe achievement, but by testing
only the achievement, we kindof set some- we kind of set
that into certain boxes andconfines of what that
achievement would be.
There are other discussionswithin the field,
and especially in the specificarea of education for
(09:06):
sustainable development thatare really looking to talk
about what are sustainabilitycompetencies and how we
work with this.
And this is what we often callto some of the higher
order thinking skills,our critical thinking and our
connectedness to sustainability,our ability
to think in systems andthink holistically, our ability
to solve problems, etc.
Simon (09:28):
Maybe if we look at some of the targets that are
under SDG4, maybe we can sortof exemplify where the quality
aspect comes in, because Ithink that, for example,
I mean, if you lookat inclusiveness, I think
Target 4.1 focuses on educationfor both girls and boys and
Target 4.2 focuses onearly childhood education.
(09:52):
So I suppose that means daycareand kindergarten and what's
been taught tothe children there.
So there is a focuson on different on the human
experience atdifferent levels, you know,
from very early childhood to-even to while you're working.
Because there's also that focuson lifelong learning,
isn't there?
There's a whole lot of thingsin the different SDG targets,
(10:15):
isn't there, Rob?
Robert (10:16):
Yes.
And an overall focus onenabling lifelong learning.
And that is- I mean, that couldbe one of the key ways that you
talk about what is quality.
Your "what you've gained",your skills about how you
actually find knowledge andlook at problems
and solve problems.
It goes beyond what you learnin the classroom and it's
(10:38):
something that you can continueto use in your everyday life.
You can continue to use in yoursociety and in your work with
your communityon sustainability, that you can
carry that work forward aslearning processes and all
of that, because you've notjust gained a set
of knowledge, but you've gaineda broader set of skills and
competencies that allow you tocontinue to learn from your
(11:03):
daily experiences and tocritically reflect on them in
a meaningful way.
But we do see a lot- I mean,the first outcome targets still
aim a little bit more aboutaccess and attainment, but it's
a much- it really broadens.
If we think thatMDG2 was focused on only
(11:24):
primary education and, while itwas a very successful overall -
the work to increaseaccess and attainment in
primary education, it didnot achieve 100%.
And so the ambition and SDG4,when they not only have
primary education, but now theysay secondary education
(11:47):
for all, as well as earlychildhood and pre-primary
education for all, and also addin not access for everyone,
but that there is equal accessto opportunities for higher
education and technicaland vocational education.
I mean, this is reallybroadening the mandate of what
(12:09):
is education and what it is andreally pushing forward that a
very strong understanding.
And to me, I take it as anunderstanding where we go back
all the way to 1948,where education is enshrined as
a human right in the UniversalDeclaration of Human Rights.
This is an extension of thathuman right to education at a
(12:32):
scale that is, I don't know,three or four times multitude
over than what we had before.
So, I mean, it's extremelyambitious to extend educational
attainment and achievement tothat large of a scale.
But in there, when you go intothe indicators around the
(12:53):
targets and you go intosome of the specific aspects,
especially when you go intoTarget 4.7 where they really
highlight education forsustainability and for global
citizenship and they start tolook at really talking about
what is the componentsof quality education, you have
much more than just focusingon the numbers.
(13:14):
You really start to have astrong discussion about what
does good education look like,how do you provide that?
And when you go into the meansof implementation about a safe
and inclusivelearning environment,
about good quality ofteacher training,
which is fundamental.
I mean, if you want goodquality education, the quality
(13:35):
of teacher training is primary.
I mean, this isreally the foundation.
At the next level, it's thelearning environment and
especially that they have safelearning environments,
that they have learningenvironments that are inclusive
and that all peoplehave access to.
But I mean, it's a second stepunder good teachers.
(13:55):
I mean, there are examples of,you know, good teaching
happening under the tree andin a village.
That's not the ideal setting,but it can work if you have a
teacher who's inspired to do so.
So there's quite a broadeningof understanding of what are
really the components that leadto a quality level of education.
Bob (14:16):
Just kind of stepping back to the targets, again, I read
4.1 being equal in access toboth primary and secondary and
4.2 being pre-primary and then4.3 being technical, vocational
and tertiary education.
But then 4.4 is substantiallyincrease the number of youth
(14:38):
and adults who haverelevant skills,
including technical andvocational skills,
skills for employment.
What's kind of the differencebetween 4.4 and those first
three?
It seems like approaching thesame thing from
different angles, unless I'mnot quite getting it.
Robert (14:53):
With the first [target] on quality, primary and
secondary education for all.
You have- I mean, it's actuallyas education for all..
.
I mean, the way it was writtenthen is basically universal
access to primary and secondaryeducation or universal
attainment of primaryand secondary education.
And then putting the quality onfront enhances that dimension.
(15:16):
There is a difference in thekind of universal access and
attainment that is in relationto primary and secondary,
as well as alsoearly childhood education.
Then with the higher education,it's equal access.
It's not that everyone shouldattain a higher
education level, but everyoneshould have the opportunity
(15:37):
to do so.
And there- especially thereshould not be barriers based on
income level and the costof higher education.
That means someone who reallyhas a desire and has a strong
ability for higher educationcannot access
that higher education.
But when we get into therelevant skills for work,
it's talking about one of theimportant things, of course-
(15:57):
that education needs todeliver and strengthen.
So if we take the first threeare really about, I mean,
more of the structural level of"what is provided" and "what is
made available", that when weget into 4.4, which is relevant
skills for work, it's talkingabout part of what does
(16:18):
education actually provideto the learners.
Bob (16:20):
Okay, that makes sense.
Simon (16:22):
It's almost- I mean, the logic is maybe also like,
you start with education forkids and then you have
education and in primary,secondary and then access to
universities for those thatfeel- or they are equipped or
are interested in going thatin that direction.
And then it moves towardskeeping the door open for
(16:43):
having education opportunitieswhile you're working,
you know, so that you-so that this lifelong education
aspect comes in.
It's not like education today,I suppose, should be seen as
something that we do our entirelife and not the way it was
perhaps traditionally viewed,where you educate yourself to
become a blacksmith whenyou are, I don't know, 12 years
(17:05):
old and then youare a blacksmith.
But...
whereas today, maybe there'sa greater flexibility.
Robert (17:11):
And there's a continued learning.
And I mean, if we're puttingthis relevance of the totality
of the sustainabledevelopment agenda, I mean,
we are all very aware that-I mean, some of the knowledge
we need, some of the solutionswe need - we don't
have them yet.
We need to work tofind new solutions.
That takes new learning.
That takes new understanding.
(17:33):
That takes each of us or isable to not get locked into the
scientific understandings thatwe gained potentially in
education 20, 30, 40years ago because that
science has changed.
Our understanding of theworld has changed.
We need to know how to bringthat in and adapt that to our
overall kind ofour self, our understanding,
(17:55):
and constantly workwith those issues.
And we- so much of sustainabledevelopment is also context
related and the solutions thatwork are context relevant.
So we might have a solutionhere that can be applied in
Norway that works well.
But if we take that to Japan,if we take that to
(18:15):
southern Africa, the samesolution won't work in the same
way in different context.
So also having that ability tolearn from context and learn to
appreciate those subtleties isa lifelong learning skill that
takes a long time to developand facilitate the growth of-
through an educational process.
(18:36):
But that is something thatideally people will take
forward throughout their lifeto work with issues related to
sustainability and beyond.
Simon (18:45):
So you're saying that- I mean, so it's interesting
to me, it's like SDG4...
Both have this important focuson education and carry forward
this important focuson education, but broaden it
and turn it into a taskthat we have to deal with
or tackle or...
You know, I mean,lifelong learning.
It's something we haveto do our whole lives.
(19:06):
But it also opens thedoor for bringing in new
kinds of knowledge, rather thanjust saying you teach something
and you there you have arrivedat it and now you go out and
you do your thing onthe labour market.
You could say it's challenging- an outdated perspective on
education and knowledge,saying that this changes as we
move through time.
Robert (19:27):
Yeah.
I mean, for sure, I think -maybe not everywhere, but at
least in our understanding ofthe work that
education is doing.
I think, relatively,say, across the world, there is
a good understanding thateducation is no longer working
with kind of finiteand fixed knowledge.
Knowledge is dynamic,knowledge is changing,
(19:48):
knowledge is adaptable, and thelearning process has to
work with that.
I think most teachers,most educators
would appreciate that.
I mean, education is, as alearning process is also a
process of discovery and aprocess of finding knowledge
and finding inquiry andinvestigating our- each learner
(20:09):
has to be able to do that andnot just receive knowledge in
a transmissive way.
However, with that said,when we look at practices
of education, I mean,especially when we look at even
practices in universities wherethere's still a tendency,
a large tendency towardslecture-based learning,
(20:31):
I mean, lecture-based learninggoes all the way back to the
very first universities,where, if we put it in
perspective - that you didn'thave printing presses,
people didn't haveaccess to books.
The lecturer sat at the frontof the room and read the one
book to all the students so thestudents could have access to
the knowledge in that book.
(20:51):
And at that point,it was very powerful.
I mean, that was the knowledgeand that was the only way you
could get the knowledge.
But it was kind of treated as"this is fixed knowledge and
that it doesn't change,so you just receive it".
But a lot of our educationalapproaches have not changed,
even though our understandingof what education is supposed
(21:11):
to do has changed dramatically.
We haven't always evolved inquite a way.
I mean, that's- it's kind ofrude to say that to many,
many colleagues and manyteachers around the world who
are very progressive in whatthey do and are finding new and
innovative approaches to engagestudents in active ways.
But...
I think still we see often,kind of, the approaches to
(21:35):
learning are still ina transmissive way.
And we- based on a textbook andbased on sharing information
from a textbook.
But that is changing and thatis part of the change that is
being talked about in SDG4,when quality education and
lifelong learning play such animportant role in the actual
framing of the goal.
But those are maybe subtletiesthat are, you know,
(21:58):
missed outside ofthe education field.
Specifically, when they look atthe SDG4, they see the
quantitative aspect still,because the targets - "we have
to achieve these targets,we need to show the numbers
that we are achievingthe targets", but it within the
goal and within the context ofthat goal, there's a lot of
these more subtle features thatare about the progressive
change of education to reallyenhance the relevance of
(22:21):
the learning, to really enhancethe skill and competency
development of the learners.
Bob (22:26):
I've got two questions that I kind of want to dig into.
One is, I'm curious about whatthis change in the educational
system looks like in practicewhen you're going away from
being transmissive and- is itjust being more interactive and
making sure that students arecoming up with- are discovering
(22:47):
this for themselves in aninteractive process with
the teacher or...
Yeah.
What does that kindof look like ?
is one [question].
And then the otherone is just, looking through
the indicators - they, at leaston the site that I'm
looking on, they seem alittle bit vague.
There's nothing that you caneffectively really measure on
the ones that I've lookedat so far.
(23:09):
So how are we doing andhow do we know how we're doing?
Robert (23:12):
There are a lot of dimensions to what kind of
approaches to quality educationlook like, and, especially when
applied to quality educationfor sustainable development,
there's a lot of discussionaround this too.
But, I mean, one of the keyones which you highlighted,
(23:33):
Bob, is the roleof active learning and
the engaged learner, that thelearner is really out doing a
lot- doing the discovery indifferent ways that can be in
the classroom,doing different projects,
doing different formsof investigation,
working with problem-solving.
That can be even going out anddoing some kind of real world
(23:53):
engagement and interaction inthe learning process.
Um, it's also important when wetalk about active learning that
it's coupled upwith collaborative learning.
That the learning process isn'tjust an "each individual
learner kind of in their own"-and actually it's a very big
shift within the educationalfield that, I mean, the kind of
the more historical traditionis a very kind of competitive
(24:15):
sense in education.
If I want to bethe best student in the class,
that means everyone else has tobe worse than me.
Um, and it's kind of beentreated that- I mean, you as an
individual are the onetrying to succeed, to be
the top, not changing it whereactually learning is a
cooperative process and welearn together, we work
(24:37):
together and in doing so,we actually enhance
each other's learning.
And part of learning is basedon dialogue and deliberation
with each other.
And if we think about how do weapply- what that means in terms
of sustainability, if we aregoing to work together to
actually define and determinewhat a sustainable future
should look like and what wewant from it, we need that
(24:59):
process of collaborative andcooperative learning to be
part of that.
But there are otherfeatures too, and some of it
goes even- I mean, at the kindof overall framework for
learning that has created theworldview or the paradigm
that is shaped.
And so here we- I mean, we havea kind of "what is the context
(25:22):
of a framework focused onsustainable development" and
looking at things in moreintegrated ways, looking at
things across systems,understanding
the interconnections, not justdividing things into different
boxes and not seeingthe whole, but having little
parts and separate parts.
And that's been- I mean,we have disciplines and
(25:44):
subjects that take ontheir own areas of expertise,
but traditionally, there's notanything really
bringing those together.
It's not to say thatdisciplines are not valuable.
They've been extremely valuablethrough- from the Enlightenment
Era forward to advance knowledgeand advance understanding.
But as they've gotten moreniche and more divided,
(26:08):
they've also ended up workingto separate our knowledge into
these finite parts and intothese separate areas where we
don't have an overall meaningand overall understanding,
and we can't see how theenvironmental and the social
and the economic and thecultural dimensions of
sustainability work together ina meaningful way.
And we are challenged to talkabout the complexity and the
(26:30):
tradeoffs that we have to- wehave to deal with when we're
talking about sustainabilitywork because of.
So at one level,it's fundamental- There's a
fundamental part about changingthe way that we work
with knowledge, that we workwith learning, reshaping the
way that we kind of effectivelyorder that understanding in our
own minds, how we order andencode different knowledge,
(26:55):
different information thatwe're receiving, and what is
the the larger schema that webring it together with.
And then that also implies intothe way that we look at and
investigate and how we we goout and draw knowledge from
different parts of the world.
But there are- I mean,there's many different parts of
(27:17):
really what makeup quality education.
And another aspect we talk-I mean, we can talk about what
are the teacher's roles?
And another exampl- animportant example there is the
responsibility of the teacherto meet each learner at his or
her own place and really toengage those individual
(27:37):
learners in the learning in away that motivates them.
Finding what you can work withas a teacher to bring them into
something that is exciting,not just teaching for a class
where you are only focused onthe handful of students who are
the top students and come tothe top and you kind of teach
to them and youlet everyone else fall behind.
(28:00):
But really making sure thattime is spent to engage each
and every student.
And that's- thatcan be difficult.
That can be difficult becauseof, in a very
simple structural way, the- Imean, rule, I mean,
policy set- policies on whatare the student-teacher ratio.
And I mean, so when theeducational policies are
(28:23):
focused on improving qualityof education, I've already said
that the training of teachersis fundamentally important.
Another thing that you start tosee is that the number of
students per individual teacher- that ratio that is set in
policy begins to lower becausethey see the need for the
teacher to be able to spendtime with each student
(28:46):
individually and engage them iscritically important to the
quality of education.
So there's many differentfacets that can enhance quality
of education and more than Ican go through here.
But active, engaged learningis really important.
The understanding of,I would say, looking at-
changing learning to be acooperative process and then
(29:08):
working withinterconnections in learning,
not kind of- not separate andnot independent knowledge,
but to really see thingsin interconnected ways.
These are some of the bigfocuses in terms of the work.
In terms of the indicators andwhere education is - on the
(29:31):
second question,that is challenging.
I mean, we see- wehave things around.
I mean, still all the reportingis on access and attainment and
what is happening there.
And there are stillimprovements being made,
but there are still challengesthat go back even to the work
(29:54):
in the era of MDG2 that wefound challenging globally.
And that's- I mean, early onin MDG2, there was tremendous
success made in increasingenrolment rates
in primary education.
And if the rate that that wasoccurring had continued through
(30:15):
the 15 years of the MillenniumDevelopment Goals, we would
have achieved 100%.
However, when they get- in somecountries and in some places
around the world anddifferent places,
different reasons, but as theygot to maybe 80% access rate-
enrolment rates, they foundthat the last 20%, the same
(30:40):
solutions that hadworked before, that didn't work
for the last 20% because thesewere different groups of people
that were either- they weremore vulnerable, they were
more marginalised groups.
How do you provide the sametype of educational solutions
to people livingin extreme poverty?
How do you provide the sametypes of educational solutions
(31:03):
to nomadic communities?
So there was a formulathat had worked.
I mean, finance [was]part of it.
I mean, international financeand overseas development aid
supported to drive thesesolutions forward
made tremendous impacts.
But they got stuck at somepoint- that same solution
(31:26):
couldn't continue to solve itfor- same solution for everyone.
There have been some efforts tohow we address the marginalised
groups more, but it'sstill a challenge.
And then with the requirementto extend that not only from
primary up into secondary andalso down into
early childhood, I mean, it's alarge- it requires a large
(31:49):
amount of resources.
And those I think where we seethat there's still challenges -
those resources aren't beingmet in the way that
the commitments are.
And that's both interms of national financing
of education.
There are targets for how muchpercent of national financing
(32:10):
is spent on education, and manycountries aren't meeting that.
There's also targets related tooverseas development aid (ODA)
in education and, I mean,a lot of the ODA targets
aren't being met.
And then there's something veryspecific nuances in
education finance, where a lotof that is being spent actually
(32:32):
lands back in the country- ofthe financing country.
So a country - a wealthycountry - gives financing to
give scholarships for forpeople from another country to
come to their country to takeuniversity in their country.
That means theactual financing, the money is
(32:52):
spent back in thecountry who gave them money.
And we also know that oftenleads to brain drain and takes
off- takes the best people froma country out of the country.
And they, in many cases,they don't return home.
If we were- if that financialaid was really being fair
and just, it would be focusedmuch more on building up and
(33:13):
strengthening the educationalinstitutions and especially the
higher education institutionswithin the target country or
the recipient country.
Simon (33:23):
Why we invest in education, why governments
invest in education, you know,different forms of education at
different stages and age groups.
And sometimes those objectives-seems to me that they are at
odds with each other.
Because also, I mean, if youshould be crude, like what's
the payoff ofan investment in education?
(33:48):
It's a long term thing, right?
Because I mean, I don'tknow - what's the end goal?
Is that increased meaning oflife or increased life
satisfaction at the level ofthe individual, or is it jobs,
job creation, contribution tothe economy of the country,
or is it ticking a box on ODAso that you have done something
(34:11):
on education and supported somemoney to UNESCO that takes care
of education?
So I think there areseveral different odds.
But it- but is it challenging,Rob, when the payoff - I don't
like to use the word 'payoff',but - when the benefits of
investments in education seemto be so far down the line,
I mean, will we even meet them?
Robert (34:30):
Um, I think it...
It's not that it's difficult.
The issue is that it sometimesdoesn't take priority over
other development investmentsthat have
shorter return periods.
But with that said,it is very well understood.
It's very well documented theimportance of education and the
(34:54):
centrality of education inachieving socioeconomic
developmentand human well-being.
And to do that ina way that is sustainable.
I mean, just namea few of the things.
I mean, education is recognisedas having one of the highest
long term returns on investmentof all development goals.
It's- it is long term.
(35:14):
I mean, you're talking...
You invest in education in a...
For a generation of of youth.
You're taking 10, 15, 20 yearsof investment until you really
see the benefits back.
But the benefits thatthey see, I mean, are clear
links between- increased levelsof educational attainment are
linked to improved health,improved disease prevention,
(35:38):
reduce child mortality,increased levels of equity and
inequality in societies,larger levels of civic
participation and engagementin decision making.
And then the ones that really-I mean, you know, the policy
makers like are, there are verydirect correlations between
(35:59):
increased levels of educationalattainment and increased
individual earning potential,as well as increased national
GDP growth rates.
And they see, I mean, this is aeconomic formula that has been
tested around the world for,I think, 50, 60 years now that
(36:22):
has looked at data andshows that as, at a
national level, as theattainment level,
the educational attainmentlevel goes up by a year at
a national level, that isroughly correlated with an
increase in GDP growth rate ofabout a half percent (increase
(36:47):
for each increase of- standardaverage increase of a year
of educational attainment).
So it's that- I mean, when Isay a "half percent growth",
you know, that may not soundlike large, but when you look
at what growth rates are,that's really quite
a significant improvement.
If you're talking, you can gofrom what they say, what they
(37:09):
have in the go here of movingfrom universal primary
education touniversal secondary education.
I mean, that's another four orfive years of education.
Then you're talking 2% increasein growth rateif that was a
full attainment that you hadn'thad before and that's the level
(37:31):
of increase you achieve.
So I mean, it's hasvery strong, very strong
correlations to many of theother development goals.
And that is why education as awhole has been highlighted as
one of the very fundamentalmeans of implementation for all
of the SDGs.
And you also see education asroles of education listed in
(37:55):
several targets of other SDGs.
I mean, if we wantto work on the SDG on
climate change ([SDG13]),there needs to be better
education about climate change.
We need to have a globalunderstanding about what we're
dealing with,the seriousness of it.
We need to have further work onthat and we see those tied
(38:15):
to many things.
We see those both inthe social goals related to
health and equity.
We see in gender equality.
We see educational targetsrelated to the environmental
goals where there arestronger scientific needs.
We see education as a primarymeans of implementation.
And then, as I'vejust mentioned, the correlation
(38:37):
to the economic goals and,you know, employability and
economic growth aspects are allvery correlated with
education's role too.
Simon (38:50):
Hey, Simon here.
The conversation ended up beinga bit longer than we
usually release, and we wantedto be mindful of how much time
you can devote to an episode.
So we are splittingthis episode here.
Please join us next timefor the rest.
Bob (39:07):
Thank you for listening to About Sustainability...
Please subscribe atpodcast.iges.jp or search
for About Sustainability...
wherever you normallyget your podcasts.
If you've got feedback, you canreview us on your podcast
directory of choice or reachout on Twitter @IGES_EN.
(39:30):
About Sustainability...
is produced by the Institute forGlobal Environmental Strategies.
Any views expressed during thepodcast are those of the
speaker at the time ofrecording and do not
necessarily reflect theviews of IGES.
Thank you for choosing to spendyour time with us.
We don't take that lightly andwe hope you'll join
us next time.
Popular Podcasts
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Therapy Gecko
An unlicensed lizard psychologist travels the universe talking to strangers about absolutely nothing. TO CALL THE GECKO: follow me on https://www.twitch.tv/lyleforever to get a notification for when I am taking calls. I am usually live Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays but lately a lot of other times too. I am a gecko.