October 30, 2022 • 35 mins
This is the second part of our episode on SDG4 and education for sustainable development. In this part we focused on whether the right skills are taught in schools to equip people with skills and priorities necessary to bring about a more sustainable world rather than one characterized by competition and scarcity. Robert shared more information and examples from his work on education for sustainable development, and we discussed what approaches to education might be needed to help achieve important sustainable development and climate goals ahead of 2030.
"About Sustainability..." is a podcast brought to you by the Institute for Global Environmental Strategies (IGES), an environmental policy think-tank based in Hayama, Japan. IGES experts are concerned with environmental and sustainability challenges. Everything shared on the podcast will be off-the-cuff discussion, and any viewpoints expressed are those held by the speaker at the time of recording. They are not necessarily official IGES positions.
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Episode Transcript
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Simon (00:00):
Yeah, so this episode continues our conversation with
Robert Didham onSDG4 on education.
If you want to hear the wholething from the beginning,
just go back and listento the previous episode first.
In this part, though, we gomore in-depth into the
connections between educationand development
and sustainability, and we alsotalk about the difficulty in
having an open and evolvingapproach to education on the
(00:22):
one hand, but then also havingto speed up social change to
meet the goals of cutting CO2emissions by 50% or
more before 2030.
We don't havemuch time left, right?
And what kinds of education areneeded to facilitate such
fundamental changes in society?
That's not aneasy question, is it?
Listen in and seewhat you think.
(00:53):
Whether your objectiveor your aim is to generate,
to argue for benefitsin terms of economic growth,
economic activities ina country, or the argument
rests on individual fulfilmentor understanding life...
There are positives acrossthose different ways to
understand or argue for theimportance of education.
(01:16):
So in that sense, education orSDG4 should be well on track
to be met.
But you know...
but still, I think therethere's got to be some areas of
contention because, for example,things such as
home economics, like howdo you budget the economy
of your household, I don'tthink that's taught.
And there's so many peoplearound the world, you know,
(01:37):
that are in debt.
And I mean, whether it'sstudent debt or other endless
debt that really becomes- thatreally ties them down.
And I think it's debilitatingin many ways.
So that isn't taught,I think, or things like,
you know, gardening.
How do you- how doyou grow your own land?
How do you relate to land andhow do you cultivate that in
(01:59):
sustaining- in asustainable way ?
Those things arearen't taught either.
Instead, you could you couldsay that what's being taught-
if we look at economics,it's Chicago school economics,
which is, at a veryfundamental level, at odds with
thechallenges of sustainability.
Right?
We cannot continue economicgrowth forever on
(02:22):
a finite planet.
So just to give a few examplesof where we might not be
teaching the right things,if we should be fulfilling the
sustainability aspectsof the SDGs.
Erin (02:34):
I'm just wondering, you know, like you mentioned,
lifelong learning opportunitiesthat go beyond the classroom-
I'm thinking about, you know,like home economics,
what you just mentioned,Simon- Like, are these kind of
things that were supposed tolearn in other places outside
of the classroom?
(02:56):
I mean, like once we talk aboutlifelong learning and just
learning from when you're bornuntil you die, I wonder,
you know, what the role of theeducational institution is as
opposed to like other places,like your parents,
or your family, or friends orcommunity or so forth, so yeah.
(03:17):
So if you haveany insights on that...?
Robert (03:20):
Yeah, I think we- I mean, we can get into a
philosophical debate about this,but I can't give
you a clear answer in a globalcontext of what is the right
and wrong materials and topicsto teach in school
and curriculums because,I mean, different countries
(03:43):
make their choices on theircurriculum and they- I mean,
they have the freedom to dothat and that shouldn't be
dictated to them.
And that's also because thereis context that needs to be
dealt with in certain ways.
There are cultural aspectsin the curriculum.
There is a level of- role ineducation that is- I mean,
(04:08):
we don't have a great word forit in English or it sounds a
bit too normative in English.
We would say "socialforming" or "socialisation".
But there's- in German,it's the concept of "bildung"
and then Nordic countries,it's the concept of "danning"
or "dannelse" and this is adual role of education,
(04:30):
both the learning andthe socialisation aspect.
And it's not just it'ssocial forming, but it's also
the understanding of yourculture and the values of your
culture and where they havecome from in a certain way.
And also it brings in part ofthe aspects of citizenship
and democratic learning.
(04:51):
And then now we extend thatmuch more and work towards a
sense of globalcitizenship, too.
So it's not just a national-based focus, but we extend to
being global citizens and moreunderstanding in a world
context with sustainability.
There are many different- thereare certain topics that,
you know, are consideredmore fundamental basics.
(05:14):
Those are often usually theones that are tested for in
these international achievementtests like PISA and TIMSS
- mathematics, science,language...
But there are a lot ofadditional potential subjects
that different curriculums putmore priority on than
others put on.
And so,things like home economics.
(05:38):
It's well taught insome curriculums, but it's not-
it isn't in all curriculums.
It doesn't even exist insome curriculums anymore.
You get certain changes tothings that would be related to
home economics thatare similar, where they teach-
and they even teach onconsumer- consumer rights,
consumer ethicsin certain courses.
(06:01):
And I mean- andhome economics has,
as a whole field, has evolvedsignificantly to include a lot
of sustainability aspects in alot of understanding of that.
So, I mean, when you're- it'snot just how to balance
your budget, but it is to lookat the issues about more
responsible and more sustainableconsumption practices.
(06:23):
It is to look at thinking aboutwhen you're planning a menu
for your family.
I mean, evenwhat are the impacts?
Both "what is anutritious meal, what is a
healthy meal or what are mealsthat are healthy for the
planet too, though?" might bebrought in to consider.
And so also a lot of what wehave in education is not just
(06:48):
the subjects that they teach,but the perspectives of
how it's directed.
I mean, so what are thecritical questions that you're
responding to when you'relearning that material?
Are you- are issues related tosustainability part of those
critical questions?
But that that goes anotherlevel deeper than just saying
(07:11):
what subjects are taught.
But how are they taught?
It also goes back to some ofthe other aspects of the
quality education, like, arethey taught just in
our lecture-based form?
Are they taught only with thetextbook or are students active
and engaged?
That comes back around tothose earlier points.
But we- those are hard to seewhen we look at these kind
of SDG targets.
(07:33):
I mean, the aspects here are alayer deeper than we can see
with just the targets in SDG4.
Simon (07:41):
So that's not- those aspects are not in the
indicators or targets of SDG4at the moment.
I mean, if they're...
If there would be a post2030 agenda, maybe this is some
of the things that couldbe looked at.
Right?
Like, what do you teach?
And also, like yousaid before, I just want to
repeat that it's not- I mean,how is it taught?
(08:03):
What is instilledin the learner ?
Is it the drive to compete orthe drive to collaborate or is
it both?
I mean, so it's also these sortof almost meta-values that
education instils inus as people.
Right?
Robert (08:20):
Hmmm.
I mean, Target 4.7, which isthe one that talks about
education forsustainable development,
education for globalcitizenship and the other
aspects- the other kind ofcontent areas that bring in
to quality education...
that has indicators that areprobably the ones that take on
(08:41):
the most kindof qualitative aspect.
But they're- it's not that theindicators are not so
well- it was, what was themechanism for collecting that
data?
And I mean, without going intothe specifics of it, I mean,
there was an existing mechanismin place that they could work
with and adapt.
So there are questions therethat countries respond to in
(09:02):
theirvoluntary national [reviews].
And they do report on that-those aspects that give
you some sense.
At another level, though,you do have frameworks about
that that go deeper, right?
I mean, you see it more clearlyin a few of the other goals in
(09:23):
relation to climate change.
There's direct reference to theParis Agreement and then in
SDG12, there is directreference to the Ten Year
Framework of Programmes onSustainable Consumption
and Production (10YFP), which isa much more detailed
plan of the work.
We don't see it in SDG4,but I mean through the lead
(09:43):
of UNESCO, Ministries ofEducation from around
the world, countries fromaround the world have agreed on
certain frameworks that theyare working on and
collaborating on at aninternational level, and that
includes the Education for 2030and the Education for
Sustainable Developmentfor 2030 Frameworks.
(10:05):
And those give youmuch more details.
And very recently, a new reportcame out of UNESCO also about
transforming higher educationand how do we really get higher
education to moveforward where- Simon, you had
mentioned earlier about kind ofI mean, if we think, "what are
the economic systems that are...
and theories that are beingtaught now?" when, you know,
(10:28):
when we're still arguing from asustainable development side
about the importance ofcircular economy, where we're
talking about conversationsabout how- the level of need
and requirement of degrowth.
Or there's still somediscussions- can we decouple
material consumption fromeconomic growth in a meaningful
(10:50):
way or not?
And if not, thenhow essential is degrowth?
That's...
I mean, but those conversationsare still at odds with what a
lot of people in MBA programs,the economic theories
that they're learning.
More and more, there are-I mean, there are institutions
that are even, you know,that are seeing the need to
(11:13):
better align what they doacross the whole institutions
with the SDGs,with the sustainable
development agenda.
There are MBA programs that areincorporating aspects of making
sure that theirstudents have understanding
of sustainability, that are atleast starting to raise some of
these questions abouteconomic theories, presenting
(11:35):
alternative economic theories.
And that's maybe the mostimportant thing,
actually, in education- it'sthat it's not about saying this
one way of understanding,this one way of doing,
is right, but saying there aremany- there are many
options out there.
And it's up for eachof us to figure that out.
(11:58):
Not just on our own, but indialogue with each other,
in collaboration witheach other,
in our communities, in oursocieties, to look at
the different possibilities,to critically reflect on what
actually- what actually meetsour needs in a meaningful way.
And what can help us build amore sustainable future.
(12:19):
And so, you know, that's maybeone of the values when we see a
move to more progressiveapproaches in education and
those that we work with ineducation for sustainable
development is that you openup the questions.
And you open up thepossibilities of understanding
(12:43):
and and ways oflooking at things.
It's not just a single way oflooking at things and a single
understanding that is right.
And in fact, there isn't alwaysone answer that is right.
There are many answers that areright in different contexts.
Or right for different people,right for different countries.
(13:05):
And we have to kindof work through those in
a meaningful way.
And that ability to actuallywork through those questions
and work through the differentpossible answers is one of the
key values of education.
And kind of in a context ofthe SDG4, in the context of how
does education's role workwith sustainable development.
Simon (13:27):
You have been moving towards education for
sustainable development,which is also a target in Goal
4 on education, right?
And it's target 4.7.
Let me just try toread it aloud.
It reads, "By 2030 ensure thatall learners acquire the
knowledge and skillsneeded to promote sustainable
(13:49):
development,including, among others,
through education forsustainable development and
sustainable lifestyles,human rights, gender equality,
promotion of a culture of peaceand non-violence,
global citizenship andappreciation of cultural
diversity and of culture ascontribution to sustainable
development." Wow.
(14:09):
That's I mean, it's actually-I mean, it's very broad, but I
feel it reiterates quite a fewof the points that you
have already made.
But...
And it sounds like such a very-almost like a shopping list of
desirable content in education.
But I'm wondering, like how doyou go about working to make
(14:34):
progress on such a target?
Can you share some examples?
Robert (14:37):
Yeah.
And there's...
I mean, there's many differentapproaches about how
you do this.
So it's not...
I mean, it's not a one-size-fits-all, and ideally it's
bringingin different approaches.
So there was a- there's beenkind of this dual understanding
(15:00):
in ESD or a divide in the waywe we've looked at education
for sustainable development.
Yeah..
.
Early- earlier on, I would say.
It's- we've kind ofevolved past this, but at least
within those specialistsworking around education
for sustainable development.
But the first kind ofpedagogical interpretation was
(15:22):
about education for sustainabledevelopment as a means to
transfer appropriatesets of knowledge.
And, even as that one evolved,I mean, originally it was
just the knowledge.
So sustainable development - weneed to teach about
climate change, we need toteach about biodiversity loss,
we need to teachabout the relevant topics
(15:43):
related to sustainability.
That expanded - I mean,very early on - from not just
being about knowledge, but alsoabout the skills and the values
that are alsolinked to sustainability.
But the second pedagogicalinterpretation is more aimed at
equipping people with thecapacity to make conscious and
(16:06):
pro-sustainability choices intheir daily lives, to work with
sustainability in ameaningful way, and to have a
kind of personal relationshipbetween what their own
lifestyles are andthe wider issues of
sustainability around them.
And so part of the examplesdepend on what kind of layer or
(16:30):
you're working at, in that-I mean, not if we don't put it
as a divide, but let'ssay a spectrum.
Because the knowledge isstill important, the skills,
the values are important,but how to learn to really
relate all of that to the realworld is critical in kind of
fulfilling the moreof a transformative
learning process.
(16:50):
So bringingknowledge content in.
Sure.
We- I mean, there's generallyI mean, you either bring that
into the specific subjects- youbring climate change into
natural science, you bringissues about global inequality
into social sciences.
You maybe have, depending onthe curriculum, you also have
(17:11):
some places where ethics andvalues are strongly addressed
in the curriculum.
Or you also try to findways to bring that in in more
cross-disciplinaryor interdisciplinary ways.
And you in a verysimple form, you make a week,
(17:32):
a "sustainability week", and allthe subjects in the
school work on teachingsustainability during that week.
And maybe as part ofthat you have some project that
the students do.
They do a gardening project anddevelop a school garden that
later be used.
But actually a school garden isanother really good example of
(17:55):
practicing- when those areapplied well in a school garden
is made and they're out lookingat soil ecology and how does
nutrient cycles in the soil aspart of that look
working with compost,understanding how plants grow...
I mean, all of those are greatways to work with beginning to
learn systems thinking.
Simon (18:15):
Yeah.
Robert (18:15):
And to see how those natural systems function and
even to see at some point,how can we interact with these
systems in a way that isproductive and in meaningful?
Other parts where we can bringit in is also, I mean,
engaging in moreactive learning,
(18:37):
action projects inthe local communities.
Going out and having studentsidentify some issue in
their community, trying to seethat issue in the context
of sustainability, but thenhaving the students actually
start to investigate that issue.
What are the reasons for this?
How, why arethere problems here ?
(18:59):
How could they begin to comearound solutions or understand
what's at play?
I can give a specific examplethat I like to share, and that
was from a school in Chiang Maiin northern Thailand,
where they did exactlythis project, and the students
were open to selectwhat they wanted to research
(19:21):
on and address.
And the students selected thatthey wanted to look at
pesticide- pesticide residues.
I mean, how much pesticide kindof was in and around in their
local environments- usedpesticides from agriculture.
So different grades ofthe school, different groups
(19:42):
were set up with doing differenttypes of investigation.
Some of the students went outand did water sampling and
actually looked at the water ofdifferent streams and they got
the teachers facilitate this bybringing in experts that can
help them learn how todo the water sampling and
doing soil sampling.
(20:03):
They actually got help from themedical university in Chiang
Mai and they sampledmany students' blood.
They actually found that manyof the students had quite high
traces of pesticide residuein their blood.
But other students wentout and did more
social investigations.
They went and interviewed thefarmers about their practices.
(20:27):
They even went to the localmarkets to find out what's been
sold already inthe local markets.
They talked to people,consumers in the markets.
"Would you be interested ifthere were organic produce or
would you be interested ifthere were even reduced
pesticide produced?
Would you pay a premium?
Would you pay more for such food?" So they carried out this
(20:48):
huge investigation,collected all
this different data.
Then they come and they workand put it back together and
kind of paint- bring a reporttogether out of it.
At the end, when theywere ready, they called
together kind of a communitymeeting or town hall meeting
that brought in the differentpeople that they had talked to
during this project, brought inthe local government,
(21:12):
presented all their findings ofthe research, and then at the
end of it just kindof said, "okay, now let's
have a discussion.
What can we do aboutthis?" And that led to
really good discussions.
I mean, it'sa really interesting idea,
actually.
You...
You know, if I go out andtell people, "hey, look at
these problems inthe environment", I might
(21:33):
receive a lot of tension.
But if you let the children dothat and the children can
actually provide evidence,they don't get quite the
conflict behind it.
We take their innocencea little more.
And those discussions led toagreements and decisions that
actually then got the supportof the local government to
(21:57):
carry forward some of the stepsabout how they could begin to
reduce the amount of pesticidesused in agriculture practices
in the surrounding communitiesand help address some of these
issues of very high rates ofpesticide residues found
in the environment.
So that's- you know, that's abeautiful example of a very
holistic approachand holistic project.
(22:19):
But we can bring these in andother steps and easier steps.
And a lot of it is also infocus about how you deal with
any of the learning.
What, I mean, do you focus on-deeper reflection of your own
learning if you want tofacilitate lifelong learning?
One of the key things is just,at the end of any activity,
(22:40):
you go back to the students.
What did welearn in this activity?
What did you find out?
Why do you thinkit worked that way?
What could you have donedifferent to change the results
of this?
Just those simple questionsabout "what did we learn from
this?" Then we can apply thatlater in our life to
any situation, any experience.
(23:00):
"Oh, what happenedin this experience?
I was having this interact-conversation with this other
person and all of a sudden theygot angry." I can then
maybe have,through the education,
actually have the emo- my ownemotional awareness and my own
critical reflection and think,"Did I do something that set
that off?
Could I have done somethingdifferent that would have been
(23:20):
better?" You know?
And so some of it is very softin the way you do it and very
subtle in some sense.
And you can't specifically putit into instruction
in a curriculum.
But you can provide thattraining to teachers during
their training about how theycan work with
(23:40):
critical question, how can theywork with kind of emotional
awareness and emotionalsensitivity in the classroom.
Simon (23:47):
It's great stuff, Rob.
So these examples aresort of success stories or
stories of hope.
And the message to me is,is that there is a
transformation that'shappening in education.
And education is such a corethat pushes the understanding of
(24:09):
our position here.
Right?
So I think it is very potentand has a lot of potential.
But I do want to ask,I mean, if we are facing
these challenges, like,let's say,
imminent climate change,global warming, and we have to
try to keep the global warmingto say something as ambitious
as 1.5 degrees Celsius,we do need to take
(24:29):
action very quickly.
Do you think that that thatthose success stories that you
share with us - do you thinkthis is enough or what do you
think is necessary to make morerapid changes going forward?
Robert (24:42):
This is actually a very hard question for me,
partly because it comes tokind of a pedagogical conflict
I've been thinking abouta lot, and that's in the focus
and in the framework that Iwork with around education
for sustainable development.
And what I'm saying with theact of learning and the search
(25:04):
for new solutions.
I mean, this is all targetedtowards an idea of, how do we
create transformative learning?
And we actually reach the pointwhere learners have the ability
to go out and find that newknowledge and redefine things
in a meaningful way and canthen be key actors in the
transformation towards asustainable future - or,
(25:25):
I mean, actors in thetransformation of society in
one way or the other,but ideally, hopefully towards
a sustainable future.
But you're actuallyin that skill
and competency development.
You're workingtowards that capacity
for transformative change.
But when we talk aboutespecially the, you know,
the 2030 targets for reducingcarbon emissions by 50%...
(25:50):
That is so close now and needssuch immediate reductions.
When we are working in groupson sustainable lifestyles and
groups that have mapped outwhat is a 1.5 degree
sustainable lifestyles,these have very clear steps of
what can be taken and whatneeds to be done.
(26:12):
Prescription.
You know,it's a prescriptive way.
There- we look at oldertraditions of education.
The transmissiveapproaches to education.
Tied with those transmissibleapproaches is what we
understand as the normativeapproach to education, where it
is very- it conditions.
"These are the valuesof our society.
This is the knowledge.
(26:33):
This is the way you shouldunderstand the world." And we-
the transformative approach toeducation in ESD turns very
away from a normative approachand opens up to that
pluralistic approach where weunderstand that there are
different ways, there aredifferent answers, and we work
together to find what is right.
(26:55):
But I do appreciate that in theimmediate forward future of
actually addressing the 2030targets of a 50% reduction
in CO2, the only way wemay get there is not just
prescriptive approaches,but very strong kind of
normative regulationpotentially might be needed.
(27:15):
But this is also very contraryto my own kind of pedagogical
beliefs and underpinning.
And I've been struggling withthis issue about- how do we
actually deal with this from aneducational point of view?
Can we both have kind of a needto address prescriptive and
(27:35):
normative aspects towardsachieving sustainable
lifestyles on one side in theshort term and still achieve
transformative learning on theother side?
And I say this because I thinkit's actually quite critical if
we take this point out further.
The 2030 reductions to 50% - wehave clear prescriptions of how
(27:56):
we could do that, where we canmake the cuts, where we can
make the reductions.
But let's go beyond that to the2050 targets for a net-
zero carbon society.
We don't have the prescriptionof how we do that.
What we know isthat it requires a substantial
transformation to how we shapeand organise our societies.
(28:16):
And that takes the creativetransformation that the work I
do with ESD is engaging with.
And then it raisesthis bigger conflict in me.
What happens if all wedo is some kind of
strong regulation, some kind ofstrong way to force the
reductions towards 2030?
(28:39):
Then can we turn aroundand say, "okay, we've met that
short-term target".
Now we have to really think ina much more creative way about
how we transform societytowards 2050, because they're,
at least froma pedagogical point, they are
almost at odds with each other.
And I have been thinking inmy mind, can we bring these
together?
Can we blend them ina way that actually works?
(29:01):
And at the moment, I don't havea clear answer for that.
And I think it's- I think it'sactually maybe something where
though the the educationalperspectives here do need to
help influence the widerconversation at a wider level
of sustainability and in thesteps forward because we need
(29:23):
to think about- that there aretwo very different things that
we're talking aboutgoing forward, making immediate
and real reductions and thebigger transformation towards
a sustainable society.
Erin (29:37):
Wow.
Yeah, that isdefinitely a tension.
Simon (29:43):
Yeah, but thank you for sharing those very honest
reflections with us.
I wasn't...
I hadn't been able tovisualise that there's actually
a conflict there.
But maybe we should just saythat there is no real conflict.
Maybe personally...
At the moment,I'm quite pessimistic.
(30:04):
Maybe we won't achievethe 50% reduction by 2030.
Or maybe whether ornot we achieve it,
it's not so important.
There will be some countriesthat will attempt to,
you know, top-down regulate toachieve those targets.
Other countries will not.
But still understanding theconstraints and the roles that
(30:28):
we play as individuals andcommunities are in that
challenging environment,you know, between now
and 2030, but also betweennow and 2050.
That really requires many ofthe values and skills that you
have been explaining to us overthe last hour or so.
So I think- Idon't think it discounts
that approach that we have beendiscussing more today.
Robert (30:53):
We let those and the politicians who have created
many of these problems make thehard cuts that need to be made
in the short term and the newgeneration that is actually
learning under theseperspectives of education for
sustainable development will bethe ones who make the
transformation beyond that.
And that's, where do we put thefocus of- when we look at
(31:15):
these issues, when we lookat problems, how do we focus?
And if any of you think aboutkind of your own experiences,
maybe not in education forsustainable development,
maybe itwas environmental education.
Simon (31:29):
Mm hmm.
Robert (31:29):
And think about what how what you learned and what
that was like.
You kind of- there'skind of three levels that
often happen.
The first level ofenvironmental education is
where they primarily highlightall the negative impacts
that are happening.
Look at the pollution.
Look at the massiveamounts of waste.
And that's where itstops, though.
(31:51):
And not any going into,"What do we do about this?"
What does that actuallydo for the learners?
I mean, it's reallydemotivating to be told,
"look at all the bad thingsthat are happening and no way
to work with it." It isimportant in the overall part
because it does set thereis an urgency that needs
to be addressed.
But at the next level, we getinto what - using the words
(32:14):
from climate change -are kindof a mitigation and
abatement approach, starting tolook at how do we reduce those
negative impacts, not eliminatethe system that creates them,
but at the end-of-pipe, how dowe mitigate and abate?
And so there we start talkingabout recycling and we talk
about energy efficiency and wetalk about eco-labelling.
So how can we- howcan we consume a little more
(32:38):
responsibly in a system that isstill having negative impacts?
Not how do we changethe system to stop those
negative impacts, but just howdo we kind of clean up a little
bit at the end?
And again, that starts toget us there, but it also...
And it starts to say that thereis a level of individual
(32:59):
responsibility that isimportant in this work.
But where it's taken a while toreach and not all forms of
environmental education and notall forms of education for
sustainable development reachis where the learning is also
focused on an approach foractive solutions - in the
search for new solutions.
(33:21):
Often solutions that arestrongly community-based or
based in local context arebased on actually going out and
doing things, using your hands,using your hearts, as well as
all the knowledge you'relearning and using your head,
but engaging with your handsand engaging with your hearts
to really find that, "hey,we can make an impact, we can
make our communities better,we can make our societies better
(33:42):
." And when education reachesthat level, that's where we get
that kind of transformativepotential out of it.
If we only stop with educationof- okay, we're going to teach
you about climate change,we're going to teach you about
how everything is going awry,and all of these tipping points
that we are closely coming upagainst and we don't really
(34:05):
think there's any solution tothat will achieve...
I mean, that's not going to bea way that gets young youth to
want to really engage.
I mean, although we have,of course, many youth climate
movements that are actuallytrying to stand up and pull and
say that, "no, we needsomething different." And they
(34:26):
are also arguing educationneeds to be different.
Education needs to be providingthem with the skills.
The youth themselves aresaying it, but in saying that,
they're saying it needs to notjust be telling us about
the problems, it needs to tellit- it needs to be helping us
know how we can actively workwith this and make a make a
real impact, a beneficialimpact, and do
(34:49):
things that can meaningfullychange these
issues and problems.
Bob (34:58):
Thank you for listening to About Sustainability..
.
Please subscribe atpodcast.iges.jp or search
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(35:21):
About Sustainability..
is produced by the Institute forGlobal Environmental Strategies.
Any views expressed during thepodcast are those of the
speaker at the time ofrecording and do not
necessarily reflect theviews of IGES.
Thank you for choosing to spendyour time with us.
We don't take that lightly andwe hope you'll join
us next time.
Yeah, so this episode continues our conversation with
Robert Didham onSDG4 on education.
If you want to hear the wholething from the beginning,
just go back and listento the previous episode first.
In this part, though, we gomore in-depth into the
connections between educationand development
and sustainability, and we alsotalk about the difficulty in
having an open and evolvingapproach to education on the
(00:22):
one hand, but then also havingto speed up social change to
meet the goals of cutting CO2emissions by 50% or
more before 2030.
We don't havemuch time left, right?
And what kinds of education areneeded to facilitate such
fundamental changes in society?
That's not aneasy question, is it?
Listen in and seewhat you think.
(00:53):
Whether your objectiveor your aim is to generate,
to argue for benefitsin terms of economic growth,
economic activities ina country, or the argument
rests on individual fulfilmentor understanding life...
There are positives acrossthose different ways to
understand or argue for theimportance of education.
(01:16):
So in that sense, education orSDG4 should be well on track
to be met.
But you know...
but still, I think therethere's got to be some areas of
contention because, for example,things such as
home economics, like howdo you budget the economy
of your household, I don'tthink that's taught.
And there's so many peoplearound the world, you know,
(01:37):
that are in debt.
And I mean, whether it'sstudent debt or other endless
debt that really becomes- thatreally ties them down.
And I think it's debilitatingin many ways.
So that isn't taught,I think, or things like,
you know, gardening.
How do you- how doyou grow your own land?
How do you relate to land andhow do you cultivate that in
(01:59):
sustaining- in asustainable way ?
Those things arearen't taught either.
Instead, you could you couldsay that what's being taught-
if we look at economics,it's Chicago school economics,
which is, at a veryfundamental level, at odds with
thechallenges of sustainability.
Right?
We cannot continue economicgrowth forever on
(02:22):
a finite planet.
So just to give a few examplesof where we might not be
teaching the right things,if we should be fulfilling the
sustainability aspectsof the SDGs.
Erin (02:34):
I'm just wondering, you know, like you mentioned,
lifelong learning opportunitiesthat go beyond the classroom-
I'm thinking about, you know,like home economics,
what you just mentioned,Simon- Like, are these kind of
things that were supposed tolearn in other places outside
of the classroom?
(02:56):
I mean, like once we talk aboutlifelong learning and just
learning from when you're bornuntil you die, I wonder,
you know, what the role of theeducational institution is as
opposed to like other places,like your parents,
or your family, or friends orcommunity or so forth, so yeah.
(03:17):
So if you haveany insights on that...?
Robert (03:20):
Yeah, I think we- I mean, we can get into a
philosophical debate about this,but I can't give
you a clear answer in a globalcontext of what is the right
and wrong materials and topicsto teach in school
and curriculums because,I mean, different countries
(03:43):
make their choices on theircurriculum and they- I mean,
they have the freedom to dothat and that shouldn't be
dictated to them.
And that's also because thereis context that needs to be
dealt with in certain ways.
There are cultural aspectsin the curriculum.
There is a level of- role ineducation that is- I mean,
(04:08):
we don't have a great word forit in English or it sounds a
bit too normative in English.
We would say "socialforming" or "socialisation".
But there's- in German,it's the concept of "bildung"
and then Nordic countries,it's the concept of "danning"
or "dannelse" and this is adual role of education,
(04:30):
both the learning andthe socialisation aspect.
And it's not just it'ssocial forming, but it's also
the understanding of yourculture and the values of your
culture and where they havecome from in a certain way.
And also it brings in part ofthe aspects of citizenship
and democratic learning.
(04:51):
And then now we extend thatmuch more and work towards a
sense of globalcitizenship, too.
So it's not just a national-based focus, but we extend to
being global citizens and moreunderstanding in a world
context with sustainability.
There are many different- thereare certain topics that,
you know, are consideredmore fundamental basics.
(05:14):
Those are often usually theones that are tested for in
these international achievementtests like PISA and TIMSS
- mathematics, science,language...
But there are a lot ofadditional potential subjects
that different curriculums putmore priority on than
others put on.
And so,things like home economics.
(05:38):
It's well taught insome curriculums, but it's not-
it isn't in all curriculums.
It doesn't even exist insome curriculums anymore.
You get certain changes tothings that would be related to
home economics thatare similar, where they teach-
and they even teach onconsumer- consumer rights,
consumer ethicsin certain courses.
(06:01):
And I mean- andhome economics has,
as a whole field, has evolvedsignificantly to include a lot
of sustainability aspects in alot of understanding of that.
So, I mean, when you're- it'snot just how to balance
your budget, but it is to lookat the issues about more
responsible and more sustainableconsumption practices.
(06:23):
It is to look at thinking aboutwhen you're planning a menu
for your family.
I mean, evenwhat are the impacts?
Both "what is anutritious meal, what is a
healthy meal or what are mealsthat are healthy for the
planet too, though?" might bebrought in to consider.
And so also a lot of what wehave in education is not just
(06:48):
the subjects that they teach,but the perspectives of
how it's directed.
I mean, so what are thecritical questions that you're
responding to when you'relearning that material?
Are you- are issues related tosustainability part of those
critical questions?
But that that goes anotherlevel deeper than just saying
(07:11):
what subjects are taught.
But how are they taught?
It also goes back to some ofthe other aspects of the
quality education, like, arethey taught just in
our lecture-based form?
Are they taught only with thetextbook or are students active
and engaged?
That comes back around tothose earlier points.
But we- those are hard to seewhen we look at these kind
of SDG targets.
(07:33):
I mean, the aspects here are alayer deeper than we can see
with just the targets in SDG4.
Simon (07:41):
So that's not- those aspects are not in the
indicators or targets of SDG4at the moment.
I mean, if they're...
If there would be a post2030 agenda, maybe this is some
of the things that couldbe looked at.
Right?
Like, what do you teach?
And also, like yousaid before, I just want to
repeat that it's not- I mean,how is it taught?
(08:03):
What is instilledin the learner ?
Is it the drive to compete orthe drive to collaborate or is
it both?
I mean, so it's also these sortof almost meta-values that
education instils inus as people.
Right?
Robert (08:20):
Hmmm.
I mean, Target 4.7, which isthe one that talks about
education forsustainable development,
education for globalcitizenship and the other
aspects- the other kind ofcontent areas that bring in
to quality education...
that has indicators that areprobably the ones that take on
(08:41):
the most kindof qualitative aspect.
But they're- it's not that theindicators are not so
well- it was, what was themechanism for collecting that
data?
And I mean, without going intothe specifics of it, I mean,
there was an existing mechanismin place that they could work
with and adapt.
So there are questions therethat countries respond to in
(09:02):
theirvoluntary national [reviews].
And they do report on that-those aspects that give
you some sense.
At another level, though,you do have frameworks about
that that go deeper, right?
I mean, you see it more clearlyin a few of the other goals in
(09:23):
relation to climate change.
There's direct reference to theParis Agreement and then in
SDG12, there is directreference to the Ten Year
Framework of Programmes onSustainable Consumption
and Production (10YFP), which isa much more detailed
plan of the work.
We don't see it in SDG4,but I mean through the lead
(09:43):
of UNESCO, Ministries ofEducation from around
the world, countries fromaround the world have agreed on
certain frameworks that theyare working on and
collaborating on at aninternational level, and that
includes the Education for 2030and the Education for
Sustainable Developmentfor 2030 Frameworks.
(10:05):
And those give youmuch more details.
And very recently, a new reportcame out of UNESCO also about
transforming higher educationand how do we really get higher
education to moveforward where- Simon, you had
mentioned earlier about kind ofI mean, if we think, "what are
the economic systems that are...
and theories that are beingtaught now?" when, you know,
(10:28):
when we're still arguing from asustainable development side
about the importance ofcircular economy, where we're
talking about conversationsabout how- the level of need
and requirement of degrowth.
Or there's still somediscussions- can we decouple
material consumption fromeconomic growth in a meaningful
(10:50):
way or not?
And if not, thenhow essential is degrowth?
That's...
I mean, but those conversationsare still at odds with what a
lot of people in MBA programs,the economic theories
that they're learning.
More and more, there are-I mean, there are institutions
that are even, you know,that are seeing the need to
(11:13):
better align what they doacross the whole institutions
with the SDGs,with the sustainable
development agenda.
There are MBA programs that areincorporating aspects of making
sure that theirstudents have understanding
of sustainability, that are atleast starting to raise some of
these questions abouteconomic theories, presenting
(11:35):
alternative economic theories.
And that's maybe the mostimportant thing,
actually, in education- it'sthat it's not about saying this
one way of understanding,this one way of doing,
is right, but saying there aremany- there are many
options out there.
And it's up for eachof us to figure that out.
(11:58):
Not just on our own, but indialogue with each other,
in collaboration witheach other,
in our communities, in oursocieties, to look at
the different possibilities,to critically reflect on what
actually- what actually meetsour needs in a meaningful way.
And what can help us build amore sustainable future.
(12:19):
And so, you know, that's maybeone of the values when we see a
move to more progressiveapproaches in education and
those that we work with ineducation for sustainable
development is that you openup the questions.
And you open up thepossibilities of understanding
(12:43):
and and ways oflooking at things.
It's not just a single way oflooking at things and a single
understanding that is right.
And in fact, there isn't alwaysone answer that is right.
There are many answers that areright in different contexts.
Or right for different people,right for different countries.
(13:05):
And we have to kindof work through those in
a meaningful way.
And that ability to actuallywork through those questions
and work through the differentpossible answers is one of the
key values of education.
And kind of in a context ofthe SDG4, in the context of how
does education's role workwith sustainable development.
Simon (13:27):
You have been moving towards education for
sustainable development,which is also a target in Goal
4 on education, right?
And it's target 4.7.
Let me just try toread it aloud.
It reads, "By 2030 ensure thatall learners acquire the
knowledge and skillsneeded to promote sustainable
(13:49):
development,including, among others,
through education forsustainable development and
sustainable lifestyles,human rights, gender equality,
promotion of a culture of peaceand non-violence,
global citizenship andappreciation of cultural
diversity and of culture ascontribution to sustainable
development." Wow.
(14:09):
That's I mean, it's actually-I mean, it's very broad, but I
feel it reiterates quite a fewof the points that you
have already made.
But...
And it sounds like such a very-almost like a shopping list of
desirable content in education.
But I'm wondering, like how doyou go about working to make
(14:34):
progress on such a target?
Can you share some examples?
Robert (14:37):
Yeah.
And there's...
I mean, there's many differentapproaches about how
you do this.
So it's not...
I mean, it's not a one-size-fits-all, and ideally it's
bringingin different approaches.
So there was a- there's beenkind of this dual understanding
(15:00):
in ESD or a divide in the waywe we've looked at education
for sustainable development.
Yeah..
.
Early- earlier on, I would say.
It's- we've kind ofevolved past this, but at least
within those specialistsworking around education
for sustainable development.
But the first kind ofpedagogical interpretation was
(15:22):
about education for sustainabledevelopment as a means to
transfer appropriatesets of knowledge.
And, even as that one evolved,I mean, originally it was
just the knowledge.
So sustainable development - weneed to teach about
climate change, we need toteach about biodiversity loss,
we need to teachabout the relevant topics
(15:43):
related to sustainability.
That expanded - I mean,very early on - from not just
being about knowledge, but alsoabout the skills and the values
that are alsolinked to sustainability.
But the second pedagogicalinterpretation is more aimed at
equipping people with thecapacity to make conscious and
(16:06):
pro-sustainability choices intheir daily lives, to work with
sustainability in ameaningful way, and to have a
kind of personal relationshipbetween what their own
lifestyles are andthe wider issues of
sustainability around them.
And so part of the examplesdepend on what kind of layer or
(16:30):
you're working at, in that-I mean, not if we don't put it
as a divide, but let'ssay a spectrum.
Because the knowledge isstill important, the skills,
the values are important,but how to learn to really
relate all of that to the realworld is critical in kind of
fulfilling the moreof a transformative
learning process.
(16:50):
So bringingknowledge content in.
Sure.
We- I mean, there's generallyI mean, you either bring that
into the specific subjects- youbring climate change into
natural science, you bringissues about global inequality
into social sciences.
You maybe have, depending onthe curriculum, you also have
(17:11):
some places where ethics andvalues are strongly addressed
in the curriculum.
Or you also try to findways to bring that in in more
cross-disciplinaryor interdisciplinary ways.
And you in a verysimple form, you make a week,
(17:32):
a "sustainability week", and allthe subjects in the
school work on teachingsustainability during that week.
And maybe as part ofthat you have some project that
the students do.
They do a gardening project anddevelop a school garden that
later be used.
But actually a school garden isanother really good example of
(17:55):
practicing- when those areapplied well in a school garden
is made and they're out lookingat soil ecology and how does
nutrient cycles in the soil aspart of that look
working with compost,understanding how plants grow...
I mean, all of those are greatways to work with beginning to
learn systems thinking.
Simon (18:15):
Yeah.
Robert (18:15):
And to see how those natural systems function and
even to see at some point,how can we interact with these
systems in a way that isproductive and in meaningful?
Other parts where we can bringit in is also, I mean,
engaging in moreactive learning,
(18:37):
action projects inthe local communities.
Going out and having studentsidentify some issue in
their community, trying to seethat issue in the context
of sustainability, but thenhaving the students actually
start to investigate that issue.
What are the reasons for this?
How, why arethere problems here ?
(18:59):
How could they begin to comearound solutions or understand
what's at play?
I can give a specific examplethat I like to share, and that
was from a school in Chiang Maiin northern Thailand,
where they did exactlythis project, and the students
were open to selectwhat they wanted to research
(19:21):
on and address.
And the students selected thatthey wanted to look at
pesticide- pesticide residues.
I mean, how much pesticide kindof was in and around in their
local environments- usedpesticides from agriculture.
So different grades ofthe school, different groups
(19:42):
were set up with doing differenttypes of investigation.
Some of the students went outand did water sampling and
actually looked at the water ofdifferent streams and they got
the teachers facilitate this bybringing in experts that can
help them learn how todo the water sampling and
doing soil sampling.
(20:03):
They actually got help from themedical university in Chiang
Mai and they sampledmany students' blood.
They actually found that manyof the students had quite high
traces of pesticide residuein their blood.
But other students wentout and did more
social investigations.
They went and interviewed thefarmers about their practices.
(20:27):
They even went to the localmarkets to find out what's been
sold already inthe local markets.
They talked to people,consumers in the markets.
"Would you be interested ifthere were organic produce or
would you be interested ifthere were even reduced
pesticide produced?
Would you pay a premium?
Would you pay more for such food?" So they carried out this
(20:48):
huge investigation,collected all
this different data.
Then they come and they workand put it back together and
kind of paint- bring a reporttogether out of it.
At the end, when theywere ready, they called
together kind of a communitymeeting or town hall meeting
that brought in the differentpeople that they had talked to
during this project, brought inthe local government,
(21:12):
presented all their findings ofthe research, and then at the
end of it just kindof said, "okay, now let's
have a discussion.
What can we do aboutthis?" And that led to
really good discussions.
I mean, it'sa really interesting idea,
actually.
You...
You know, if I go out andtell people, "hey, look at
these problems inthe environment", I might
(21:33):
receive a lot of tension.
But if you let the children dothat and the children can
actually provide evidence,they don't get quite the
conflict behind it.
We take their innocencea little more.
And those discussions led toagreements and decisions that
actually then got the supportof the local government to
(21:57):
carry forward some of the stepsabout how they could begin to
reduce the amount of pesticidesused in agriculture practices
in the surrounding communitiesand help address some of these
issues of very high rates ofpesticide residues found
in the environment.
So that's- you know, that's abeautiful example of a very
holistic approachand holistic project.
(22:19):
But we can bring these in andother steps and easier steps.
And a lot of it is also infocus about how you deal with
any of the learning.
What, I mean, do you focus on-deeper reflection of your own
learning if you want tofacilitate lifelong learning?
One of the key things is just,at the end of any activity,
(22:40):
you go back to the students.
What did welearn in this activity?
What did you find out?
Why do you thinkit worked that way?
What could you have donedifferent to change the results
of this?
Just those simple questionsabout "what did we learn from
this?" Then we can apply thatlater in our life to
any situation, any experience.
(23:00):
"Oh, what happenedin this experience?
I was having this interact-conversation with this other
person and all of a sudden theygot angry." I can then
maybe have,through the education,
actually have the emo- my ownemotional awareness and my own
critical reflection and think,"Did I do something that set
that off?
Could I have done somethingdifferent that would have been
(23:20):
better?" You know?
And so some of it is very softin the way you do it and very
subtle in some sense.
And you can't specifically putit into instruction
in a curriculum.
But you can provide thattraining to teachers during
their training about how theycan work with
(23:40):
critical question, how can theywork with kind of emotional
awareness and emotionalsensitivity in the classroom.
Simon (23:47):
It's great stuff, Rob.
So these examples aresort of success stories or
stories of hope.
And the message to me is,is that there is a
transformation that'shappening in education.
And education is such a corethat pushes the understanding of
(24:09):
our position here.
Right?
So I think it is very potentand has a lot of potential.
But I do want to ask,I mean, if we are facing
these challenges, like,let's say,
imminent climate change,global warming, and we have to
try to keep the global warmingto say something as ambitious
as 1.5 degrees Celsius,we do need to take
(24:29):
action very quickly.
Do you think that that thatthose success stories that you
share with us - do you thinkthis is enough or what do you
think is necessary to make morerapid changes going forward?
Robert (24:42):
This is actually a very hard question for me,
partly because it comes tokind of a pedagogical conflict
I've been thinking abouta lot, and that's in the focus
and in the framework that Iwork with around education
for sustainable development.
And what I'm saying with theact of learning and the search
(25:04):
for new solutions.
I mean, this is all targetedtowards an idea of, how do we
create transformative learning?
And we actually reach the pointwhere learners have the ability
to go out and find that newknowledge and redefine things
in a meaningful way and canthen be key actors in the
transformation towards asustainable future - or,
(25:25):
I mean, actors in thetransformation of society in
one way or the other,but ideally, hopefully towards
a sustainable future.
But you're actuallyin that skill
and competency development.
You're workingtowards that capacity
for transformative change.
But when we talk aboutespecially the, you know,
the 2030 targets for reducingcarbon emissions by 50%...
(25:50):
That is so close now and needssuch immediate reductions.
When we are working in groupson sustainable lifestyles and
groups that have mapped outwhat is a 1.5 degree
sustainable lifestyles,these have very clear steps of
what can be taken and whatneeds to be done.
(26:12):
Prescription.
You know,it's a prescriptive way.
There- we look at oldertraditions of education.
The transmissiveapproaches to education.
Tied with those transmissibleapproaches is what we
understand as the normativeapproach to education, where it
is very- it conditions.
"These are the valuesof our society.
This is the knowledge.
(26:33):
This is the way you shouldunderstand the world." And we-
the transformative approach toeducation in ESD turns very
away from a normative approachand opens up to that
pluralistic approach where weunderstand that there are
different ways, there aredifferent answers, and we work
together to find what is right.
(26:55):
But I do appreciate that in theimmediate forward future of
actually addressing the 2030targets of a 50% reduction
in CO2, the only way wemay get there is not just
prescriptive approaches,but very strong kind of
normative regulationpotentially might be needed.
(27:15):
But this is also very contraryto my own kind of pedagogical
beliefs and underpinning.
And I've been struggling withthis issue about- how do we
actually deal with this from aneducational point of view?
Can we both have kind of a needto address prescriptive and
(27:35):
normative aspects towardsachieving sustainable
lifestyles on one side in theshort term and still achieve
transformative learning on theother side?
And I say this because I thinkit's actually quite critical if
we take this point out further.
The 2030 reductions to 50% - wehave clear prescriptions of how
(27:56):
we could do that, where we canmake the cuts, where we can
make the reductions.
But let's go beyond that to the2050 targets for a net-
zero carbon society.
We don't have the prescriptionof how we do that.
What we know isthat it requires a substantial
transformation to how we shapeand organise our societies.
(28:16):
And that takes the creativetransformation that the work I
do with ESD is engaging with.
And then it raisesthis bigger conflict in me.
What happens if all wedo is some kind of
strong regulation, some kind ofstrong way to force the
reductions towards 2030?
(28:39):
Then can we turn aroundand say, "okay, we've met that
short-term target".
Now we have to really think ina much more creative way about
how we transform societytowards 2050, because they're,
at least froma pedagogical point, they are
almost at odds with each other.
And I have been thinking inmy mind, can we bring these
together?
Can we blend them ina way that actually works?
(29:01):
And at the moment, I don't havea clear answer for that.
And I think it's- I think it'sactually maybe something where
though the the educationalperspectives here do need to
help influence the widerconversation at a wider level
of sustainability and in thesteps forward because we need
(29:23):
to think about- that there aretwo very different things that
we're talking aboutgoing forward, making immediate
and real reductions and thebigger transformation towards
a sustainable society.
Erin (29:37):
Wow.
Yeah, that isdefinitely a tension.
Simon (29:43):
Yeah, but thank you for sharing those very honest
reflections with us.
I wasn't...
I hadn't been able tovisualise that there's actually
a conflict there.
But maybe we should just saythat there is no real conflict.
Maybe personally...
At the moment,I'm quite pessimistic.
(30:04):
Maybe we won't achievethe 50% reduction by 2030.
Or maybe whether ornot we achieve it,
it's not so important.
There will be some countriesthat will attempt to,
you know, top-down regulate toachieve those targets.
Other countries will not.
But still understanding theconstraints and the roles that
(30:28):
we play as individuals andcommunities are in that
challenging environment,you know, between now
and 2030, but also betweennow and 2050.
That really requires many ofthe values and skills that you
have been explaining to us overthe last hour or so.
So I think- Idon't think it discounts
that approach that we have beendiscussing more today.
Robert (30:53):
We let those and the politicians who have created
many of these problems make thehard cuts that need to be made
in the short term and the newgeneration that is actually
learning under theseperspectives of education for
sustainable development will bethe ones who make the
transformation beyond that.
And that's, where do we put thefocus of- when we look at
(31:15):
these issues, when we lookat problems, how do we focus?
And if any of you think aboutkind of your own experiences,
maybe not in education forsustainable development,
maybe itwas environmental education.
Simon (31:29):
Mm hmm.
Robert (31:29):
And think about what how what you learned and what
that was like.
You kind of- there'skind of three levels that
often happen.
The first level ofenvironmental education is
where they primarily highlightall the negative impacts
that are happening.
Look at the pollution.
Look at the massiveamounts of waste.
And that's where itstops, though.
(31:51):
And not any going into,"What do we do about this?"
What does that actuallydo for the learners?
I mean, it's reallydemotivating to be told,
"look at all the bad thingsthat are happening and no way
to work with it." It isimportant in the overall part
because it does set thereis an urgency that needs
to be addressed.
But at the next level, we getinto what - using the words
(32:14):
from climate change -are kindof a mitigation and
abatement approach, starting tolook at how do we reduce those
negative impacts, not eliminatethe system that creates them,
but at the end-of-pipe, how dowe mitigate and abate?
And so there we start talkingabout recycling and we talk
about energy efficiency and wetalk about eco-labelling.
So how can we- howcan we consume a little more
(32:38):
responsibly in a system that isstill having negative impacts?
Not how do we changethe system to stop those
negative impacts, but just howdo we kind of clean up a little
bit at the end?
And again, that starts toget us there, but it also...
And it starts to say that thereis a level of individual
(32:59):
responsibility that isimportant in this work.
But where it's taken a while toreach and not all forms of
environmental education and notall forms of education for
sustainable development reachis where the learning is also
focused on an approach foractive solutions - in the
search for new solutions.
(33:21):
Often solutions that arestrongly community-based or
based in local context arebased on actually going out and
doing things, using your hands,using your hearts, as well as
all the knowledge you'relearning and using your head,
but engaging with your handsand engaging with your hearts
to really find that, "hey,we can make an impact, we can
make our communities better,we can make our societies better
(33:42):
." And when education reachesthat level, that's where we get
that kind of transformativepotential out of it.
If we only stop with educationof- okay, we're going to teach
you about climate change,we're going to teach you about
how everything is going awry,and all of these tipping points
that we are closely coming upagainst and we don't really
(34:05):
think there's any solution tothat will achieve...
I mean, that's not going to bea way that gets young youth to
want to really engage.
I mean, although we have,of course, many youth climate
movements that are actuallytrying to stand up and pull and
say that, "no, we needsomething different." And they
(34:26):
are also arguing educationneeds to be different.
Education needs to be providingthem with the skills.
The youth themselves aresaying it, but in saying that,
they're saying it needs to notjust be telling us about
the problems, it needs to tellit- it needs to be helping us
know how we can actively workwith this and make a make a
real impact, a beneficialimpact, and do
(34:49):
things that can meaningfullychange these
issues and problems.
Bob (34:58):
Thank you for listening to About Sustainability..
.
Please subscribe atpodcast.iges.jp or search
for About Sustainability...
wherever you normallyget your podcasts.
If you've got feedback, you canreview us on your podcast
directory of choice or reachout on Twitter @IGES_EN.
(35:21):
About Sustainability..
is produced by the Institute forGlobal Environmental Strategies.
Any views expressed during thepodcast are those of the
speaker at the time ofrecording and do not
necessarily reflect theviews of IGES.
Thank you for choosing to spendyour time with us.
We don't take that lightly andwe hope you'll join
us next time.
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