50. Erin Jones: Building Bridges - An Intimate Conversation on Racial Healing, Resilience, and Faith. - Above The Noise: Faith; Race; Reconciliation.

Episode Transcript
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Grantley (00:09):
Welcome to Above the Noise, a podcast at the
intersection of faith, race andreconciliation, And I'm your
host, Grant ley Martelly.
My guest today on Above theNoise is Erin Jones, author of

the book Bridges to Heal Us: Stories and Strategies for (00:30):
undefined
Racial Healing.
Erin is a gifted speaker, anindependent consultant, and an
educator who has won many awards, including in 2007, the most
Innovative Foreign LanguageTeacher.
In 2008, she was the state ofWashington's Milken Educator of

(00:53):
the Year.
In 2013, a White House Championof Change and in 2015,
Washington State PTA'sOutstanding Educator.
Erin is the first black womanto run for any state office in
the State of Washington, whereshe ran for the State
Superintendent of Education in2016, losing by only 1%.

(01:17):
Let's join the conversation andhear her story.
I am so happy to have you heretoday, Erin.
Thank you for being my guest,Thank you for coming on, and I'm
looking forward to ourdiscussion.
I appreciate you taking thetime to be with me today.

Erin Jones (01:34):
I'm excited to be here.

Grantley (01:36):
So, on, above the Noise, we usually start with
trying to ground the sin on whothe person is that we are
talking to.
You are bringing in yourparents, your brothers, and what
would your childhood like?
you know, going through schooland that kind of stuff.

Erin Jones (01:51):
Wow, that's.
That's a whole.
I have a whole TED talk on that, so I'll try to give you the
short version.
But I am a biracial,transracial adoptee, so because
people will be listening to thisonline, I am.
My mother was a white woman in1971.

(02:13):
I was born on June 3rd 1971.
So literally my birthday fromthe time of this recording my
birthday is in four days.
I'll be 52.
But I was born at a time whenblack and white were not
supposed to mix in the UnitedStates and my white mother we
don't know the history or theexact story of my birth, but she
had me with a black man and wastold she could not keep me.

(02:36):
So I was abandoned at birth inthe hospital and sent to the
Children's Home Society, whichis where I started life.
I was really fortunate and Iknow that God had a plan.
I don't believe in excellence.
God had a plan for my lifebecause about 85 to 90% of black
babies in Minnesota, where Iwas born, never get adopted.

(02:57):
But I was adopted right away.
At three months old, a whitecouple who were both teachers
from Northern Minnesota came tothe agency and said we want to
adopt black babies And they weregiven me.
They chose me actually.
My dad tells the story ofwalking through the nursery and
saying my crib and saying I wanther, and so I tell people I was

(03:18):
not abandoned by a mother.
I was chosen by a set ofparents.
I don't know that theirfamilies were so excited about
that decision, because, eventhough people in Northern
Minnesota were openly racist,they also were pretty ignorant.
There were no black people thatlived where my parents were
from, and so the only storiesthat my grandparents knew about

(03:39):
black people were what they hadread in the newspaper or seen on
television, and they were notreally positive stories.
So I know that my parentsparents were probably not really
excited about me being adopted,but my father brought me to
meet his family when I was aboutseven months old for Christmas,
and they fell in love with meand the rest is history.

(04:00):
For my dad's side of the family,we have really beautiful
relationship, and my cousins andI are all six feet taller
taller, we are all teachers,we're all basketball players, we
all sing and we've all writtena book.
I think all of us have writtena book too.
Yeah, so we're all writers too,which is just really
interesting because they are allScandinavian.
So there's me and then there'sthem, but we all really enjoy

(04:23):
doing the same things.
We're all Jesus people too, sowe all are involved in church
ministry in some way too, whichis interesting, because my
parents were not.
We went to church as kids, butfaith was not a real strong part
of my childhood exactly.
Going to church was important,but not faith exactly.

(04:43):
That makes a difference, andall of my cousins and I have all
come to our own understandingof faith, and faith is really
important to all of us cousins.
So I just think it'sinteresting how God brought us
together and made us so muchalike even though I was not
birthed by nature into thefamily We lived in Minnesota for

(05:05):
until 1976, until I was five,and then my father took a
teaching job in the Netherlands.
He taught at the American Schoolof the Hague in the Netherlands
, and so that's where I did mostof my childhood from 1976 to
1989.
I graduated from the AmericanSchool of the Hague, and that is
the school that was created toserve the United Nations world
court lawyers.

(05:26):
So all of the lawyers childrenwent to my school, but also most
of the ambassadors for nonBritish colony countries.
So the ambassadors, japan,their children went to my school
in Brazil, their children wentto my school.
Portugal, spain, i mean allthese.
So I went from being an orphankid and an orphanage to sitting

(05:49):
next to really powerful people'schildren.
Shell, conoco, texaco all theoil companies also sent their
children to our school.
Here I was, this teacher's kid,going to school for free at a
school that costs today.
It cost $30,000 forkindergarten.
When I think about what God hasdone for me and allowing me to
go to one of the best schools inthe world, my whole childhood,

(06:13):
is just pretty incredible.
Every American president visitedour school.
So every time the presidentwould come to visit the United
Nations, he would always stop atour school because we were
right down the street from theUnited Nations world court.
And how do you not stop at theAmerican school?
So we got visits from JimmyCarter to George Bush.
I hosted Barbara Bush when Iwas the senior in high school,

(06:36):
but she was my secondpresident's wife I met I met my
first president's wife when Iwas nine years old, the
president's wife of the countryof Egypt.
She actually brought her friendJohn Denver with her and he sang
with our choir and she sharedher story and their country,
Egypt, was in a civil war at thetime and in fact, her husband
would be assassinated justmonths after she came to visit

(06:59):
us And she would share a storyof wanting to be at peace.
So she had this vision in her40s that if we could just teach
little kids to commit to peace,maybe we could end wars around
the world.
And so she had this vision ofvisiting schools, elementary
schools all over the world, andshe wanted to start with our

(07:20):
school because she thought, youknow, it's the United Nations
school.
We have children from all overthe world here.
And so I got to meet thepresident's wife of Egypt as a
light-skinned black woman, agirl at the time.
It didn't strike me until manyyears later how powerful it was
that I got to meet anotherlight-skinned black woman who

(07:41):
was an African president's wifewhen I was nine.
But she would tell me when Iwas nine years old that I was a
world changer.
So I was already.
I could already speak Englishand Dutch fluently by the time I
was nine.
I was learning to speak Arabicin Hebrew at nine because I had
friends in my school who werefrom Israel and Palestine And I
just had this innate passion forthem to be at peace, and I knew

(08:04):
that somehow, instinctively.
I knew at nine years old Ishould probably speak their
language if I'm going to helpthem become peaceful.
I had this dream as anine-year-old kid that I was
going to broke her peace betweenIsrael and Palestine, and so I
had already learned.
I was learning to speak Arabicin Hebrew when the president's
wife came to visit our schooland she told me at nine that I

(08:25):
was going to change the world,and I believed her.

Grantley (08:28):
And.

Erin Jones (08:28):
I began to live that way as a nine-year-old kid, and
I just think about the power ofthe words of adults and
children.

Grantley (08:35):
Yeah, the power of speaking into existence.
Yeah, there's still a peacebetween Israel and Palestine.
Yes, that's probably close toit.

Erin Jones (08:43):
Yes, you still got time.
You still got time to work.

Grantley (08:46):
Yes, You got time to get it done.
It's interesting how youstarted out.
I mean, I'm not sure.
I think I'm going to go back tothe story of one rejection from
your birth mother, but then youimmediately went into
acceptance.
A couple came and accepted, you, brought you into a family and

(09:09):
you were adopted into thisfamily.
But yet there's so manysimilarities that you were
saying The kids are tall authors, no professional people.
So it seems like you went fromrejection to acceptance into the
right family, even though youwere different.
You weren't standing out thatmuch because it seems like there

(09:31):
were some things that werecommon to the traits of the
children.
Yeah, you were not born intothat family.
Naturally, that's amazing howGod works things out.
Even though sometimes it seemslike it starts negative, He sort
of brings all the piecestogether for the destiny of your
life.
You said something in your bookabout sometimes, when you're

(09:52):
faced with challenges, that'swhen you must step up to the
plate.
We cannot just step up.
Seems like before you couldwalk, you were stepping up.

Erin Jones (10:01):
Yeah, I feel like that has been my life's work is
to step up to hard things.

Grantley (10:07):
So, by the way, a happy birthday in.

Erin Jones (10:09):
Georgia.
Thank you, that's what.

Grantley (10:11):
June occurred.

Erin Jones (10:13):
Yeah, that's great.

Grantley (10:15):
You were from the Hague.
Did you actually graduate therebefore you came back?
I did Yeah.

Erin Jones (10:20):
So I actually graduated second in my class,
which is also pretty incrediblebecause here's all these rich
kids, very powerful people'schildren.
All the parents went to Harvardand Yale and my parents went to
small town community college.
And then here's Erin graduating.
I missed valedictorian by.01.

(10:41):
Wow.
So I mean I worked really,really, really hard.
So I graduated from high schooland I was actually the top
athlete too.
So I played three varsitysports in high school.
I was captain of all threesoccer, basketball and softball
And then I also played twoinstruments in the band and I

(11:01):
ran the largest model UnitedNations in the world as a senior
in high school And then appliedto come back to the United
States for college and gotaccepted at Princeton.
But Princeton never looked atmy financial aid paperwork.
They just assumed that I wasone of the rich kids.
They looked at the name of myhigh school and made assumptions
about me, and we didn't learnuntil many years later that they

(11:23):
didn't look at my financial aidpaperwork.
And so they gave me a reallysmall scholarship like $1,000,
which, of course, for Princetonthat doesn't buy anything.
Buy some books.
And my parents had to say no tome, as imagine.
Imagine being a parent and yourchild has done everything right
, everything right And you haveto say no.

(11:45):
I you know I tell people.
I can remember the three timesmy father has cried, and that
was one of the times my fathercried.
He was so devastated to have tosay no to me.
So I'd have to say no toPrinceton, but I got accepted at
the sister college to Princeton.
So what a lot of Americansdon't know is that all of the
Ivy League colleges were createdonly for men, and so if women

(12:08):
wanted to attend college, theycreated partner women's colleges
.
So Harvard has a women'scollege.
That's connected to it.
Stanford, all of the big Yale.
And I went to the sister schoolthat Princeton.
It's called Bryn Mawr College.
It's right outside ofPhiladelphia And I went there
sight unseen, which I would notrecommend to anyone ever.

(12:29):
I tell parents all the time donot, i don't care how much money
the college gives you, don't gountil you have visited, because
you just don't know what you'regoing to end up in.
Bryn Mawr was not an easy placeto be at all, and especially in
the skin that I'm in.
There were only 10 black womenthere at the time that I
attended And it was a communitythat really didn't want us there

(12:52):
unless we were cleaning thingsor serving things, and that was
such a rude awakening comingfrom Europe, where the Europeans
, if you spoke languages andwere an athlete and a musician,
they loved you as a black person.
So I had grown up my whole lifebeing really well loved in
Europe and appreciated, and itwas the first time in my life

(13:14):
that I was openly hated andcheated with disrespect.
And I remember my parents cameto visit Thanksgiving, my
freshman year, and it took fourrestaurants before they would
seat us together in the sameplace And they actually seated
us in a back room and closed thedoor of my white parents.

(13:34):
I didn't even want us to sittogether, it just was.
It was a hard time And I knowthat it led me to the work that
I do today.
All of that challenge led me toteaching and then to helping
people talk about race, becauseI had to.
I was forced to have to thinkabout those things in a way that

(13:55):
I might not have had I beensomewhere else.

Grantley (13:58):
So how did that affect you as an 18 year old coming
coming back to the United Statesafter being well gone your
whole life?
You, you, maybe, so you werenever really lived here.

Erin Jones (14:10):
Well, to be honest, i mean, if I'm really frank, i
thought about taking my life.
And I should add that not onlydid I come to the US, having not
lived here really, i also camebefore the internet.
So there was no like callinghome, there was no sending an
email home which, you know,younger people just don't, can't

(14:30):
appreciate that So we justdidn't have a phone in our hands
that we could just call, and soI was in the US by myself And I
didn't have community here.
My cousins were here, but theywere in Minnesota And again we
didn't have internet, so they itwas as if they weren't here
either.
They were all in college too,because we're all about the same

(14:50):
age.
So I had no one, and I playedsoccer for the university, and
then I played basketball as well, and so I had community there
on the court.
But when the season was over,my basketball season actually
averaged about 23 points a gameas a freshman, which is a lot.
I played every minute of everygame my freshman year.
We won every game for the firsttime in the history of the

(15:13):
college, and my coach neverchecked on me after the last
game.

Grantley (15:17):
Wow.

Erin Jones (15:18):
Never checked on me And he knew I had nowhere to go
for spring break.
He knew I had nowhere to go onthe weekends.
He knew I had no family hereAnd he never checked on me.
And I stopped going to classwhen the season was over And I
stopped eating, i stoppedbathing myself And I really
began to think.
Maybe I can't do anything inthe world that's worth it.

(15:40):
Maybe I was a mistake, maybe myadoption was a mistake, maybe
my whole life has been a mistake.
And then one day I ended up.
I know this was God now, but Ididn't understand at the time.
I woke up, it was the firstweekend in April of 1990, right
before the end of my freshmanyear of college, and I hadn't

(16:01):
been to class in like threeweeks And I'd just been
literally laying in my bed allday.
I know I was depressed now, butwe didn't have words for that
then.
And I woke up and the sun wasshining on my face And I know
now it was God, like just hey,aaron, wake up, wake up.
But I didn't know what it was.
I just knew there was anurgency to get out of my dorm.

(16:22):
So I left my dorm.
I did not even know where I wasgoing And I just started
walking.
I felt like I was being ledsomewhere And I know now that it
was God leading me somewhere,but I didn't understand.
I just was walking, i didn'tknow where I was going And I
ended up on a basketball courtin this tiny little black
community.
And it's where the help lived.
It's where all the people livedwho worked in the white

(16:43):
people's mansions in my collegetown.
They served food and they werethe chauffeurs and chefs and
housekeepers and nannies of therich white people in my college
town.
So it was this tiny littleblack neighborhood, really small
houses, a community center, andright in the middle of town was
this beautiful outdoorbasketball court And this very

(17:06):
tall man, older probably at thetime.
He seemed older, he wasprobably like 45 or 46 at the
time, but he called out to meand he said you are obviously a
basketball player.
We need one more to playbasketball.
And I could tell you did notsay no to this man.
So I played basketball with thisman all day And when he left he
took us to adult sons with himAnd I turned to these black high

(17:29):
school boys and said who wasthat Jay man that we just played
with all day.
And they looked at me like Iwas an alien from another planet
And they said, jay, you mean DrJay, who is that?
And I said, yeah, who's Dr Jay?
And they said where are youfrom?
You don't know who Dr Jay is.
I said I'm from the Netherlands.
I don't know, i don't know whoDr Jay.

(17:51):
And they had to explain to meJulius Irving, greatest NBA star
to ever play a game.
And so here I had been playingwith the superstar all day long
and had, i mean, i knew he wasgood, it was obviously he was
really good, but I had no ideawho he was.
And I sat on the sidelines andtalked with these three boys for
hours And they shared theirstory And I shared mine And what

(18:12):
I realized as depressed as Iwas, i realized for the first
time that I had been given somany gifts in my life And, even
though I had lost my way as afreshman and I felt really alone
, the thing that God showed mein that moment was Aaron, i made
you black and white, i made youan athlete And I made you a

(18:34):
great student.
I made you American andEuropean.
I made you a bridge.
I made you a bridge.
I made you to be a bridgebetween multiple things, and I
also had you be raised byteachers And you've been trying
to run from teaching.
I'd always said I don't want tobe like my parents.
They work way too hard for toolittle money.

(18:55):
But I knew, talking to theseboys, they had all dropped out
of school And I asked themwhat's your dream for your
future if you're not going toget a high school diploma?
And all three boys said wedon't expect to live to be 21.
And I knew in that moment theseboys deserved to have really
great teachers, like my parentshad been for me And my teachers,

(19:18):
all of my teachers had beenreally great for me.
And I knew that these boysdeserve that.
And I remember running all theway back to my dorm And at the
time you had to call an operator, to call Europe, and so I
called my parents in the middleof the night, woke them up and
said I know what my purpose is.
I want to thank you for lovingme so well And for being so

(19:38):
courageous to leave America toraise me somewhere else.
And I know I knew who I'msupposed to be in the world.
I'm going to be a teacher, likeyou, but I need to do it here
in America, so I'm not cominghome.

Grantley (19:51):
Wow.

Erin Jones (19:52):
And I didn't come home.
I never did.
I've been here for 32 years Andwe cried on the phone that day.
We cried for a long time.
I can't imagine now as a mom.
I can't imagine having my 18year old kid tell me I'm not
coming back across the ocean.
I can't imagine what that musthave been like, for my mother
especially.

(20:12):
But I made a decision that dayI'm not going back, I need to
stay here, And that has been.
I don't regret one second of it.
It's not been easy at all Byfar.
it's definitely not been aneasy decision, But I don't
regret one second of it.
I've taught now in Philadelphia, South Bend, Indiana, Columbus,
Ohio, Corvallis, Oregon, Tacoma, Washington and Spokane,

(20:35):
Washington.

Grantley (20:36):
So Yeah, yeah, you're born to be a teacher.
You know, in some ways ourstory intersects a little bit.
Obviously not in terms of maybegoing to school, but I grew up
in the Caribbean with this dreamof going to college and getting
the college education.
Being the first person in myfamily to get four-year college

(20:56):
degree.
I went to the University ofWest Indies for a year and that
was not successful.
And then I met this whitecouple who came through Barbados
.
They got stuck in Barbadosbecause there was a hurricane
right.
Their daughter was on anotherisland doing some summer
internships Who just happened tothe internship, just happened

(21:18):
to be with my brother who was apastor, and I met them at church
.
They came to our church thatSunday and he just started
talking to me and he said youngman, what do you want to do with
your life?
I told him what I want to do inmy life That time I wanted to
be a doctor.
He says how are you going to dothat?
I said I don't know.
I want to go to the UnitedStates to go to school.
And he said if you will doeverything in your power to make

(21:42):
it possible, i will doeverything in my power to help
you, but the same thing you know, the Lord brought me culture
into a white culture to learnthe ways of white people.
How did I think I made thisdecision?
I was going to learn everythingI can about how white people
think, because I knew I had tobe better in order to succeed.

(22:06):
Because we were in Nampa, idaho.

Erin Jones (22:13):
Wow.

Grantley (22:14):
You can imagine, Yeah, Some of the things that were
sad and some of the things likethat, right, It's anyhow.
But this is not about me, Thisis about you.
But as you were thinking aboutthis, I was like, wow, here it
is.
That you know, you think thatyour, your life is changing
drastically and and you don'talways put all the pieces

(22:35):
together while it's happening.
But now, as I on it, I see howmuch you know, I call that
gentleman, my father, and thenit was Irvin Laird.
He passed away about seven yearsago.
God knows what he's doing.

Erin Jones (22:48):
Yes, that he does, that he does.
He's orchestrating it from wayout here He's orchestrating.

Grantley (22:54):
So at those points God puts people in your life to
give you the right words.
You're right For you.
If for you it was Dr J Thatthere right Who caught you out
from down the street, knowing,not knowing, everything going
through your mind, and herevived in you a, a flame that
might have been going out.
Yeah, here you are.

(23:15):
Yeah, so you went to college,you got your degrees.
So where, where did you go fromthere?

Erin Jones (23:22):
My husband and I met this summer after my sophomore
year, his junior year at BostonUniversity.
We both got accepted into aspecial summer program for black
students from across thecountry.
We took the top black studentsfrom across the country and we
got chosen as one of the 25students and we ended up living
in a brownstone together andgoing to school for six weeks

(23:45):
And I knew the first day of theprogram, this one, And we ended
up becoming really great friends.
And then he went back to Oregonstate, for he played football
there on scholarship And I wentback to Bryn Mawr And then I
convinced my dean to let me doan exchange program at Oregon

(24:08):
state for the rest of my junioryear, Because most women at Bryn
Mawr go overseas.
But I convinced her.
I lived overseas my whole life.
I have never been to the WestCoast, so let me go.
So I was the first student theylet go to the West Coast.
What was amazing about that isbecause I was so advanced in
French.
I was allowed to teach Frenchat the University of El Boso, I

(24:29):
got to be a teacher's assistantteaching French and I got to
also teach in the writing center.
So even as a young I mean, Iwas only a junior in college.
I got experience teaching and Igot experience speaking French,
But I also got to play with theOregon state basketball team.
I didn't get to play in games,but I got to play in their
practice season, which was alsoamazing.

(24:51):
To go from a small women'scollege to a division one and to
get to practice with them everyday, And that was like another
dream that I had was to play atthe next level And so being able
to practice there.
We ended up getting engagedthere at Oregon state And then
he got a scholarship to Bostonnot to Boston to Notre Dame

(25:13):
University where he did hisgraduate work in political
science.
And when I graduated fromcollege the next year, we got
married in South Bend And hewent to graduate school.
He was an associate minister ina small Black Baptist church
And I began teaching there.
Actually, for people in theUnited States listening, Pete

(25:36):
Buttigieg was at the school thatI taught in, So he, the
gentleman who ran for president,who's now our secretary of
transportation he was in theeighth grade when I taught sixth
grade in South Bend, Indiana,which is just kind of funny He
was this little Pete.
We moved to Columbus, Ohio, somy husband could go to Bible
college And I taught English asa second language for the Honda

(25:58):
Corporation And then he gotcalled home to Tacoma to be the
youth pastor at the church he'dgrown up in.
And so we came to Washingtonstate 26 years ago now So he
could be a youth pastor And sohe did that full time for 10
years.
I helped him in that.
But I also opened a school inmy garage and then I began

(26:20):
teaching in the public schoolsystem.
We adopted a little girl out ofa gang here in the area And her
mom was actually my husband'slittle sister And she ended up
overdosing and dying his sisterAnd we had to leave the area
because the gang came for herdaughter.
And so we felt like God saidmove to Spokane, which didn't

(26:44):
make any sense to our Blackfamily to move to Spokane.
So this thing you don't know,Spokane it's about 98% white,
It's not a community that Blackfamilies move to.
But we felt like God wascalling us there.
I had been doing some work withWhitworth University to support
students of color on campus andthey had a job opening for me,

(27:06):
And so we quit our jobs and soldour house And three weeks
before we were supposed to move,Whitworth had a budget cut and
they cut my position.
So we're moving for a job thatI'm supposed to have that
doesn't exist anymore.
And I remember my husband and Ilooking at each other and
saying, OK, what do we do now?
And we both said God told us tomove, We're just going to move.

(27:28):
So we don't have jobs.
Neither one of us had jobs atthat point, But we'd already
rented a house.
We had three little kids Ithink the kids were nine, 10,
and 11.
So we moved to Spokane withoutjobs.
He got hired by a Christianyouth organization 24 hours
after we moved.
They were so excited to have aformer youth pastor that got

(27:50):
snapped up right away And thatyouth program is going to serve
a high school in the area.
I ended up getting hired at thehigh school in the area, And
Spokane has lots of high schools.
But that particular high schoolwhere my husband is going to be
working was the school thathired me And I ended up winning
Teacher of the Year there forour state And that propelled us

(28:11):
back across the mountains backto the state capital where I
would work for two statesuperintendents as an executive,
And then I became the firstblack woman in our state to run
for any state office.
I ran for the public schools in2016.
I lost that race by one point,But that was also God, because
schools would shut down with thepandemic right after that.

(28:33):
And I think all the time aboutif I had won I would have been
running schools during thepandemic And I feel like God
knew that was coming And he saidnot, Erin, I wanted you to get
close, But yeah, you need to bedoing something else.
So I have been doing consultingwork for the last six years.

Grantley (28:54):
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(30:10):
So you mentioned living in SporeCan, washington.
We're coming back to Tacoma,moving to Spore Can, which was
mostly white, and then comingback to the Puget Sound.
I mean, what was it like atthat time?
This program is about theintersection of faith and risk
and reconciliation.
So how was it moving back herewith your husband and your young

(30:31):
family and then also runningfor public office as the first
black woman?
Did you have any uniqueexperiences that were life
changing experiences, you andyour family?

Erin Jones (30:44):
I'm actually about to write a book about this, so
this is my.
I literally met with my authorcoach this morning.
The title is More Than a Raceand I will be writing, and it
will be about the intersectionof faith and politics and skin
color.
So it's interesting that youwould ask that question right
now, because that book,hopefully, will be written by
the end of the summer.

(31:05):
Lots of unique experiences,which I really believe that God
is in the business with me ofunique experiences, something
you said earlier you don'talways see the pieces at the
time, but when you look backlater you can see all the places
.
So I believe one of the reasonsthat God moved us to Spokane is

(31:25):
because Spokane needed ourfamily there to understand, to
begin to start thinking aboutrace and talking about race and
and thinking about what is theirresponsibility, to have
conversations about race.
So Spokane, even though it's98% white, also has a large
Ethiopian orphan population.

(31:47):
So I don't know why, but achurch years ago probably 20, 30
years ago began adopting.
People from that church startedadopting Ethiopian babies And
now there's just lots of peopleadopt.
So their black population isgrowing And even though it's not
black like me, it's still blackAnd so they have to deal with
like, what are the stories thatyou've been told about all black

(32:10):
people?
We got to, they got to practicehaving some of those
conversations with us Andbecause I am who I am and my
husband is a pastor by trade, weshow up in spaces to talk about
race and really loving ways.
I tell people I don't come withboxing gloves to talk about the
conversation, i come with aninvitation to community And I

(32:34):
think that's what Spokane neededat the time was just an
invitation to community.
So we had one of the thingsthat I will never forget, i
think, because I'm a teacher Myyoungest son, israel so Israel
and Malachi are boys And myyoungest son, izzy, was in the
fourth grade, the smartest kidin his whole school.

(32:56):
Just, i mean Izzy.
Izzy is the smartest human thatI know.
My son I don't know how hebecame the smartest, but he is
like he got one wrong on the SATAnd he knew which one.
He got wrong the day that hetook the test And he was so
angry with himself for havingchanged the answer.
Like that's how smart Izzy is.
But he's also a really kindperson And he's also larger than

(33:17):
average And so today he's six,five, but in fourth grade he was
bigger than every other kid,but he would finish all his work
early and then he would sit andread at his desk And I can
remember the teacher.
At the end of the school year Iwent to pick him up and the
teacher pulled me back in theclassroom and he started crying
And he said Aaron, i had allthese ideas about black people

(33:40):
until I had your son, and yourson has shattered every
stereotype that I had aboutblack people.
There was one of the books thatthey read as a class a short
story maybe, that included someconversation about slavery.
And he said your son was justso kind in how he responded with
the whole class about this bookthat we were reading, or the

(34:02):
story that we were reading.
And he said I learned moreabout black people this year
than I've learned in my wholecareer.
And this man was probably inhis late 40s, early 50s at the
time I mean not a young teacherAnd he said I just want to thank
you for letting me be histeacher.
And it was so beautiful and hewas in tears And I just thought

(34:23):
this is why we were here, likepart of the reason for being in
Spokane was to be the one blackfamily in my kid's school, to be
the one black family in ourneighborhood and to really
challenge people's ideas aboutwhat are all black people?
Guess what?
All black people are not onething, just like all white
people are not one thing.
And so here we were, two verywell-educated black people, also

(34:45):
athletes.
So we kind of blew up thatstereotype too.
We're not just athletes, we'reathletes and we're really smart
and we're really kind and we'realso Jesus people, and so it
really shattered just a lot ofthe stories that people had, and
I think that was a really greatthing for that Spokane area.
What's really amazing, i'mheaded there tomorrow.

(35:06):
Actually, i'm headed to Spokanetomorrow.
What's crazy about?
we only lived there two years,but Spokane is like a second
home to us.
Now I actually have a room in myfriend's house that she calls
the Erin Room, and anytime I goI stay there And she's this
toe-headed blonde, pale, whitewoman who loves me like a sister
, and in those two years Godallowed our hearts to be knit

(35:28):
with that community in a waythat is only God could do.
I played basketball and leaguesthere, And so I know all the
basketball players there thatare adults, because I played in
leagues there and I used to playin the outdoor basketball
tournament there And so my teamalways either won or came in
second.
So my heart is knit witheducators and also with the

(35:52):
basketball community, but alsowith the church community, so
I've done a lot of speakingthere.
When George Floyd was murderedand a lot of Spokane churches
were trying to figure out how dowe talk about this stuff, i was
invited into Zoom calls to talkabout racial reconciliation and
talk how do we, as Jesus people, have healthy, healing

(36:12):
conversations about race, and so, all because of that move 15
years ago, we are still nowactually have more business in
Spokane than any other city inthe United States.

Grantley (36:23):
So you talked about in your book.
By the way, the book is calledBridges to Heal Stories and
Strategies for Racial Healing.
You talk about being invitedinto churches to speak into
after the George Floyd incidentand after the racial uprising,
and you said, like me, " watchyou navigate spaces that were
being more and more dividedamong political and social lines

(36:46):
.
You and I struggle as we see.
Those who have been seen gentleand meek now take strong
stances and ways that feelcontentious and dehumanizing.
We suggest that the meremention of race was in itself
racist.
Now let's talk a little bitabout that, about how navigating
these issues in the church andin the context, in a place where

(37:07):
we talk, where people come onSundays and think everything is
good because everybody shakehands in the lobby and says how
you're doing, i'm doing greatAnd I always tell people in a
place where they're spendingpeople, everybody can't be doing
great.
Somebody's got to be nottelling the truth.
However, i think the wholeracial and political thing has
shown up that we were not alldoing great.

(37:28):
So talk a little bit about howyou've navigated those spaces as
your family and how you'vehelped churches navigate.
Those are people of faith.
Let's talk a little bit broaderthan churches, because I'm sure
you're speaking to more thanpeople who are identified as
Christians.
But all faith.

Erin Jones (37:45):
When I ran for public office, I ran as a
Democrat And here's why.
And for those who are listeningfrom the United States, I think
you'll appreciate this morethan people who are not from the
US.
But in the 2016 presidentialrace, President Trump was pretty
explicitly anti-Black andanti-immigrant.

(38:06):
He had already gotten into therace and started those dynamics
at the national level before Ideclared that I was running.
And even though I'm a Jesusperson and there are things
about the Republican Party thatI aligned with politically, I
knew at the time that how Ithought about public education I

(38:27):
was running to public schoolsaligned more with the Democratic
Party And I'm not a big DDemocrat, I think because I'm
biracial.
I've always been in the grayarea, right, I'm a bridge, so
I'm not either one or the otherAnd I don't think most humans do
nuance very well, but I live inthe nuance, I live in the gray

(38:50):
and have always been that way.
But I decided to run as aDemocrat.
I was gonna run as anindependent And then I learned
really quickly that you can'twin a statewide election as an
independent.
It's just there's not precedentfor that.
The support.
You have to pick one side orthe other, and so I picked
Democrat.
However, someone told me youshould go meet with the chair of

(39:12):
the Republican Party becauseshe is a former Young Life
leader and my husband had beenthe director of Young Life and
Spokane.
And so I went and met with herright at the beginning of the
campaign season And I'll neverforget we're sitting in this
room in Seattle and I'm tellingher my story And she said Erin,
I understand why you're notrunning as a Republican.

(39:34):
Because I said to her yourstatewide party may not be
anti-Black and it may not beanti-immigrant, but the rhetoric
at the national level is soanti-Black and anti-immigrant.
As a Black woman who servesimmigrant families, I can't run
as a Republican.
I can't do it.
And she said I get it, but whatI love about you is number one,
you love Jesus, and number two,you love teaching.

(39:56):
That's what matters for thisparticular position.
So I support you, even if theRepublican Party can't support
you, I do, which is reallyamazing, like I didn't expect
that.
And then I ran as a Democratand I learned really quickly in
my church So we had been theyouth pastors in the same church
that when we came back to theWest Side for me to work for the

(40:18):
state superintendent, wedecided to go back to the church
that we had pastored in, eventhough it was an hour away.
It's what we knew.
It's a community that we'dinvested in.
When we started there, it was98% White.
Because of us, it becameprobably 40% people of color.
So we'd worked really hard toinvest in helping the church

(40:39):
become more ethnically diverse,and so we couldn't find a church
like that here in Olympia.
So we drove up to Tacoma andwent back to our original church
.
Oh my gosh, people would stop mein the middle of worship
service and tell me that I was ababy killer, and I had not
realized until that time that,as a good evangelical, i was

(41:01):
supposed to be a Republican.
I had not, because I didn'tgrow up in America.
I didn't grow up.
My parents are a PresbyterianLutheran.
They're not evangelical, sothere's not an expectation of a
particular party from my parents.
That's not how we were raised,and so I started getting
comments like that from peopleand I was like what?

(41:22):
I don't even understand that.
But I learned during my campaignseason from the people in my
own church that there was adivide happening in our church,
because what I also knew, as Iwas talking to the students that
we had pastored as youthpastors, who now were adults in
the church.
I mean, we'd pastored thembefore we moved to Spokane and

(41:45):
now they were young adults inthe church.
I was hearing from them oh mygosh, when we go to Bible study,
everybody's talking about howmuch they love Trump, and, of
course, black Christians don'talways vote Republican and often
don't vote Republican.
And so these black young adultsare really struggling with
what's coming out of the mouthsof the white people that they're
going to church with and Biblestudy with.

(42:06):
And so when I lost my election,I remember very clearly the
Sunday after I lost, my pastorpreached a sermon about some of
you have been away from ministryfor a while and it's time to
come back.
And I knew, okay, that's mymessage, it's time for me.
I'm gonna volunteer in youthministry again, even though my

(42:27):
husband was now a head footballcoach and a teacher.
He didn't have time to be upand down the freeway, but I knew
, okay, I love young people, ican give this time now that I've
lost this election.
But I also knew from watchingour own church that our church
needed to have some honestconversations about race because

(42:48):
I was watching the dividehappen during the election.
I was watching how people wereposting on social media from our
church, and so I went to ourpastor that next week and said,
hey, i do racial equity training.
I think it would really help ifwe could.
we are now a diverse,ethnically diverse church, but
we're not talking about race.
And I think we need to, becauseI think there's some conflicts

(43:10):
happening maybe not in thesanctuary, but it's happening
out there And I would, because Ido this for a living.
I would love to offer what I dofor a living here for free, to
the people that I lovedesperately, without thinking.
He said we don't need that.
We don't need that.
And what I heard is we don'tneed you.

(43:31):
And unfortunately, that'sreally what he meant to.
He didn't know it at the timeAnd he came back and apologized
several months later and he saidI have to apologize to you.
I was so afraid to broach thisissue that I said we don't need
it, but we really do need it.

(43:52):
And so he let me do a trainingwith the Board, the elder board
and leadership for the church,so all the youth staff and the
children's workers.
I did a training, which is great.
You know, when a thing is notpersonal to you and it's not a
priority, it's easy to check abox and say we did a thing.

(44:13):
And I was not about to fighthim over, like I was not gonna
bang on the door either.
I didn't want him to feel likewe have to have this
conversation or else, and so Ijust said you know what I told
my husband?
I said when he's ready, it'llhappen.
He knows where I am.
And then the pandemic hit And Iwatched black people in our

(44:39):
church and white people respondreally differently to the
pandemic And it was so hard towatch.
It was really really hard towatch.
And then, of course, there wasanother presidential election
And, i would argue, morecontentious than the one before
it, and I began to watch onsocial media as people posted

(44:59):
really gross things.
And then George Floyd wasmurdered in the ways that some
of the white members of ourchurch talked about all black
people.
It was just horrifying.
But I had this revelation Oh mygosh, we've been sitting next
to you for 25 years but youdon't actually know us.

Grantley (45:17):
You don't know each other, correct?
Yes?

Erin Jones (45:20):
Just sitting next to someone in a pew does not mean
you actually have a relationship, and that was the thing that
was just so clearly revealed tome when George Floyd was
murdered is, oh my gosh, none ofy'all know me at all And I've
been raising your kids.
I've been serving in youthministry for 15 years.
I've known some of you for 26years.

(45:41):
I babysat your kids And youknow me as the public speaker,
you know me as the great teacher, but you don't know Aaron at
all And, of course, i'm fromMinneapolis, minnesota,
originally.
So that George Floyd situationhit me really personally hard.
Not one person reached out toask how I was doing And I

(46:01):
continued to serve in youthministry.
So I hosted online our youthministry for the next six months
online.
I did that and not one personreached out to ask how I was
doing.

Grantley (46:11):
And I was not well.

Erin Jones (46:12):
I was not well.
Some of my mom's side of thefamily did not respond well to
the either the pandemic orGeorge Floyd, and so we got
messages from her side of thefamily that were just horribly
racist.
And so I'm trying to walkthrough this.
During a pandemic, my churchnot one person And I was very

(46:35):
transparent on social mediaabout how I was feeling.
I was very transparent And allthese secular people that I knew
, like friends from work andstuff, were reaching out and
people were dropping coffee offfor me.
I began to teach on March 16thafter school shut down.
I began to offer free classesonline every single day.
I taught for four hours everyday online.

(46:56):
Kids could come, teachers couldcome, little kids.
I did read aloud every morningfor 81 days in a row And not one
person from my church reachedout, and it was so painful to
know that I had invested so muchin my time in a community that
it felt like did not love me atall and didn't know me at all.

(47:19):
But one of the things that Godtold me back when I was 19 years
old and had just come to knowhim is Aaron, i'm going to allow
you to go through some painfulthings, but I always want you to
take that pain and use it toteach people, use it to help
other people heal, and so I knewprobably by December of 2020, i

(47:41):
knew that I needed to write.
So I will just say that the painof watching our church fall
apart over the racial tension,and I was so happy to be able to

(48:02):
talk about how I moved throughthe world as a black woman.
It's different than how otherpeople move through the world as
white people, and if we trulylove each other, we need to be
willing to understand how all ofour identities like, for
example, you came from anothercountry than the United States.
If I didn't ask you questionsabout your childhood and how you

(48:26):
came up and what is differentthan I, don't truly care, but I
can't possibly know you fully IfI don't understand the you that
came before the US.
If I only know a piece of you,then I only know a piece of you.
I don't know the full you.
And so one of the things Ibelieve that God showed me is we
have to get more curious aboutone another and we have to be

(48:48):
willing to talk about especiallythe things that are hard,
because guess what If Jesuspeople can't do it, how do we
expect anybody else to be ableto do it?

Grantley (48:57):
That's correct.

Erin Jones (48:59):
We have to lead the way, and God has given us a
blueprint for this stuff.
I mean, i think about the wholeNew Testament is about a bunch
of people wrestling together whocome from different cultures
and different religioustraditions, trying to wrestle
together and learn each otherand learn how do we better serve
one another.
That is the New Testament, andso how do we live that out?

(49:20):
And that's really what Ibelieve God said to me.
And the pain of it all is,aaron, i want you to use this
painful experience not to getangry, but to get hold yourself
and then to help other peopleheal and find wholeness.

Grantley (49:38):
Wow, that is.
That is powerful, and I knowwe're coming up on our time.
I could talk to you for anotherhour.
I'm looking at my list ofquestions and I'm going to go.
However, i always believe thatwhen God brings people on this
podcast, we talk about thethings that he wants us to talk

(49:59):
about, not necessarily thethings that I have on my list.
You know, i have to hear, justlike you have to prepare, but
that doesn't always mean thatthat's where he's going to take
the conversation Right.
We got to be willing to flex.

Erin Jones (50:11):
Yeah.

Grantley (50:11):
So I would promote the book because there's lots of
stuff in there that I wantpeople to read.
In fact, I've been sending itto people.
I sent to somebody yeah, who isthis person?
You got to read this book.
So, but I want to.
I want to round us out in thissession What are three or four
things I mean we just talkedabout some really heavy stuff

(50:33):
for people of faith, right, howwe relate to each other, how we
talk to each other.
We can sit next to each otherand not know each other and
sometimes we can discloseourselves off even to wanting to
learn about.
So what are three or fourthings that you may have that
people who are struggling withthis, people who want to have
this conversation, people whorealize, like us, that we got it

(50:53):
, we've got people of faith havegot to be leaders in this space
that you would suggest forpeople who are trying to say
what can I do to be a difference, to make a difference in this
area of faith, race andreconciliation?

Erin Jones (51:07):
So I think number one and you've got to see me
model this and training withyour, your employer but be
grateful like choose gratitudeevery day.
So when it feels like the worldis on fire which I feel, like
the US feels like it's on fireright now People ask all the
time how do you keep your headabove water?
I am grateful every day, Ichoose gratitude every single

(51:29):
day, and I there's science togratitude, but I believe God
created the science.
So the science of gratitude isthat we get a wash with dopamine
, so our body gets a hit of thispositive wash of chemicals that
allow us to feel good.
But it also, if we choose to begrateful, over time It changes
how we think about the world andwe see the world through a

(51:51):
positive lens.
I think God already planned forthat.
He asked us to be grateful, andso I think the science just
confirms what the way that Godalready made us.
So choose gratitude every day.
That's number one.
Number two choose to becourageous, and part of being
courageous is being willing toembrace that you don't know it

(52:11):
all, like God knows it all.
You don't know it all, and sostop walking around the world
like you know it all and bewilling to push into the
discomfort of not knowing it all.
You're going to make mistakes,but I think the most important
thing about being courageous isbe willing to be vulnerable.
Ask some questions, get curiousabout people around you who are

(52:32):
not like you.
You know, one of the most mostimportant things about being
brave, i think, for Jesus peopleis we have to stop creating
such small circles of people whoare just like us.
One of the most importantthings you can do to be brave is
to look at your friend circle.
Who are you following on socialmedia?
Who are you having over fordinner?

(52:54):
Who's whose house are you goingto for dinner?
If everyone looks like you allthe time and they believe like
you and they vote like you, youprobably haven't expanded your
circle enough.
So who's around you, who'swhose stories are you getting
curious about?
I want to encourage you part ofbeing brave is getting curious
about people who are reallydifferent from you, and don't
assume the things that you'veheard on TV about that group of

(53:17):
people, and I would offer evento the Jesus folks out there.
One of my great friends isMuslim.
She's a brown woman.
She's from Bangladesh.
She's had her hijab pulled offher head here in Olympia.
That woman is fiercely.
She's a fierce prayer warrior.
She loves God the way that sheloves God.

(53:38):
And obviously I'm not a Muslimand I don't align with some of
the things in Islam, and yet shehas taught me things about God.
There's ways that she is.
She trusts God when I probablywould have run from God.
There are ways that she hastaught me about faith and
devotion and fasting, and so Ithink sometimes Christians are

(54:00):
really afraid of having arelationship with people who are
not Christian.
And guess what, if your faithis not strong enough to tolerate
friendship with someone else,you probably are not don't
really have a strong Christianfaith.
Her faith in Allah and herMuslim traditions actually
pushed me to think more deeplyabout my own tradition and make
them more More deep.

(54:22):
I find that my faith isdeepened in Jesus because of how
I experience her faith, and shereally challenges me to live my
faith more deeply.
Part of being brave is alsotrusting that God brought you
into this, but see who God's putaround you.
Don't be afraid of the peoplethat he's put in your, the house
next to you or the apartmentcomplex next to you, like, trust

(54:43):
that God put those people onyour job and in your
neighborhood for a reason.
Get to know them and get toknow their story, so just get
curious about them.
The other thing that I wouldsay is that often, especially
white Christians will tell mewell, aaron, the Bible doesn't
talk about race at all, so whydo you got to talk about race?
Well, yeah, america createdthis, not America, but really in

(55:06):
the 1600s, the whole idea ofskin color was a created thing,
but there are plenty of examplesof ethnic groups, plenty of
examples of ethnic groups thatwere in conflict for the very
same reasons that we are inconflict right now around.
Skin color, and race is justthe new ethnic.
So if you look at the Samaritan,the story of the good Samaritan

(55:28):
is a great example of this.
Why was that story so powerful?
because Samaritans were notsupposed to engage.
People are not supposed toengage with Samaritans.
They were seen as the we don'twant to have anything to do with
them, right?
and yet Jesus used this personthat was in the margins to be
the one that most loved, theperson lying on the side of the

(55:49):
road.
There are plenty of examples inthe Bible where Jesus gives us
examples of ways that we need tocross barriers around identity,
and our barrier in this countryhappens to be this thing we
call race.
But there are lots of other waysthat Jesus shows that we need
to get over our differences, weneed to talk about them, and so

(56:11):
this is what made us indifferent skin.
So it's not like he made it.
God made us in different skin.
It's not like he made a mistake.
If he meant for us to all beone skin color, he would have
made us all one skin color.
There's a reason he made ustall and short, with fuzzy hair
and straight hair, and so we canembrace that this is something
that God designed for us.
And so let's get curious andfigure out.

(56:32):
Okay, how did we celebrate allthe things, all the ways?
And I would say, get on your ownjourney of learning.
There's a really beautifulpodcast called be the bridge.
There's a book series to.
Natasha does a really great jobof talking through a faith lens
around this conversation,around race and reconciliation.

(56:54):
If you were looking for morelearning, there are a number of
different people havingconversations about this stuff.
Guess what you're going to messup?
You're going to fall down.
Guess what you get back up.
You mess up, you fall down.
That's what sin and andforgiveness is right.
We mess up, we fall down.
We ask for forgiveness, we getback up.

(57:14):
This is just anotheropportunity to get right with
God and with each other.

Grantley (57:19):
Yeah, that is powerful .
Yes, I have a class that I'vetaught on cultural intelligence
And now I'm doing this otherclass on culture: seeing culture
in the Bible.

Erin Jones (57:33):
Oh yes, that's good.
Culture Yeah.
Can I read the last page of mybook?

Grantley (57:39):
Yes, yes, you have the floor.

Erin Jones (57:41):
It's my favorite.
It's my favorite page, and sothis is what I especially for my
Jesus folks.
We are brothers and sisters.
This is, i believe, a prayerfrom God.
Is this from God's mouth to myear, to my pen, into this book?
Stay grateful for everyencounter.

(58:02):
Stay curious about those aroundyou.
Stay learning.
Don't be paralyzed by nothaving the exact right answer.
Keep moving and speaking anddisrupting and investing.
Keep being and building thebridges we need to heal us.
Do you see me on the track?
I'm running in front of you,behind you, alongside you,

(58:22):
reminding you, when your lungsburn, to keep going, reminding
you to keep your eyes on theprize that could also be God to
for those of you out there, notjust me.
I'm going to run through thecheck with you.
Last line, run through thefinish line.
My friends, you've got this,we've got this.
With God, all things arepossible.

Grantley (58:43):
Thank you very much for joining me today, for
joining us today.
This is very inspirational.
Like I said, i could talk toyou for another hour or two.
I will promote bridges to healus, because there's some great
stories in there and some greatpoints about how to have these
conversations.
The purpose of this podcast isto help people of faith learn to

(59:07):
have courageous conversationsabout faith and race and be able
to lead others through thatprocess to reconciliation.
As I read your book and I heardyou and met you, it was like
she is right on, She steps aheadof me, where ahead of me.
But all the voices arenecessary to help people come

(59:28):
together and understand that wecan lead a different story And,
like you said, it's not just inthe United States, it's in the
other countries too do havetheir version of this, and
people of faith in this in thesecountries also learn from your

book (59:40):
Bridges to Heal US , and and us is a play on words-
us and also United States, Thereare strategies for healing race
.
I really thank you and I reallyappreciate it.
Is there any other closingwords you want to share before
you go?

Erin Jones (59:58):
I don't think so.
I think I love what you justsaid.
None of us are in this byourselves and some people are in
front and behind and whereveryou are in the journey, just get
on the get on the track.
I'm going to use a runninganalogy again, because I'm a
runner get on the track Andwhether you're slower, fast,
whether you've run a mile ornever run more than 100 meters,

(01:00:19):
walk, run, just get on the track, get in the game and trust that
God will.
God will assist you And I'mgoing to leave you alone, and
there are going to be times whenyou do fall down in your week
and keep running.

Grantley (01:00:34):
We can sit next to someone for years and never
really know them, unless webecome intentional about taking
the time to spend time together,to listen to each other's
stories and get to know eachother.
Aaron encourages us to bewilling to suspend our comfort
zone and expand our circle offriends.
Be courageous, Remember tosubscribe and leave us a rating.

(01:01:27):
Ratings are very important tohelping our podcast succeed in
the podcast universe and helpingit become known to other people
.
Email us your comments atabovethenoise24 at gmailcom.
Abovethenoise24 at gmailcom.
And follow us on Instagram andFacebook at abovethenoise24.

(01:01:49):
Thank you for listening andplease share this episode with a
friend.

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50. Erin Jones: Building Bridges - An Intimate Conversation on Racial Healing, Resilience, and Faith.

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}50. Erin Jones: Building Bridges - An Intimate Conversation on Racial Healing, Resilience, and Faith.