August 19, 2023 • 34 mins
Send us a Text Message about the podcast
In this concluding episode our guest, Ijeoma Oluo: author and speaker helps us decode the true definitions of the terms: race and privilege; highlighting how racism is not just prejudice, but a systemic issue, and privilege is not a term to be weaponized but rather a descriptor of how one navigates the world. She also enlightens us on intersectionality and the importance of understanding our own privilege, as it can be a powerful tool in driving positive change.
We explore the intricate relationship between intersectionality, race, and class in America. We delve into the real-world implications of these dynamics and the harm they can cause if used to create divisions among different social groups. We also emphasize the power of learning and supporting others, encouraging a culture of constant growth that embraces diversification of information sources and the questioning of whose voices might be missing in our everyday conversations.
Leave review
Follow and Share
Send Text Message
New Website
Buy Me A Coffee
#abovethenoise24
# faith
#reconciliation
#race
#racialreconciliation
We appreciate your support: Buy Me A Coffee
Stay in touch:
- Email us at: abovethenoise24@gmail.com
- Facebook: @abovethenoise24
- Instagram: abovethenoise24
Podcast art by Mario Christie.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Grantley Martelly (00:09):
Welcome to Above the Noise, a podcast at
the intersection of faith, raceand reconciliation, and I'm your
Grantley Martelly.
My guest on this two-partepisode is Ijeoma Oluo, a mom,
(00:30):
writer, and speaker on race andidentity in America, and she is
the author of the book that weare discussing, "So you want to
talk about race?
I hope that you enjoyed partone of Ijeoma's story and her
life experience.
If you haven't listened to partone, I would encourage you to
go back and do so.
It would make a lot of sense aswe continue into part two.
(00:52):
Her story is compelling andenlightening.
In this episode, we will divefurther into defining terms and
discussion around ensuring thatwe have some common clarity
around the topics that are soimportant to move the needle
ahead on this topic, we'lldiscuss what is racism, what is
(01:13):
intersectionality, what isprivilege and the difference
between race and class.
I will conclude with some ideasthat may be helpful for you.
If you want to explore further,let's rejoin the conversation
with Ijeoma, the author of soYou Want to Talk About Race?
Ijeoma Oluo (01:36):
The definition of racism I work with is bias
against people because of theirracial identity, skin color
features.
That is backed up by systems ofpower.
The reason why I add that andthat's the part that people
often don't like is becausewe're talking about the ways in
which it impacts people's lives.
When we're just talking aboutpeople who have bias against
(01:59):
people because of their racialidentity, we're talking about
feelings.
We're talking about oh, youmade me sad, oh, you don't like
me.
You know what that might ruinyour afternoon.
It's not going to ruin yourlife.
When we're talking about systemsof power, we're talking about a
fear of you because your skincolor has been instilled in me
and now I can call the policeand you might die.
(02:19):
That is a very different thing.
The thing that I always tellpeople if they have trouble with
sticking to this definition iswhat is the problem you're
trying to solve?
Are you trying to solve hurtfeelings or are you trying to
save lives?
If you're trying to save lives,then we need to focus on these
(02:40):
systemically generated andsupported biases.
Grantley Martelly (02:45):
Let's talk about that as well the systems
and the institutions, becauseyou spend a lot of time talking
about that in your book as well.
Let's talk about our privilegeand then intersectionality, two
other things that peoplestruggle with understanding.
What my experience is that youcan go over yours, is if you
just talk about privilege,everybody is yeah, I understand
(03:07):
that.
You say white privilege and nowall of a sudden it's a
different environment.
The same welcoming environmentnow turns 180 degrees.
Yeah, absolutely.
Ijeoma Oluo (03:19):
It's interesting to me because I think part of that
is we've weaponized privilegeinstead of talking about it as a
really useful descriptor forhow people move through systems.
I honestly I have so many bonesto pick with the way in which
we've talked about privilegeover the years.
I don't know, have you everdone that privilege knapsack
(03:42):
exercise that a lot of oldschool equity teachers like to
do?
Where they're like make a listand that's your privilege
knapsack.
It makes it seem like privilegeare these bunch of gifts that
you carry around with you thatjust keep you moving through the
(04:02):
world easily.
If you're someone who hassuffered in life, you don't feel
like you're walking around witha bunch of gifts.
It's also not how privilegeworks.
Privilege is not necessarily Imoved through the world with all
these gifts.
This system has been designedto serve me in a particular way
(04:27):
and hasn't put particularbarriers in front of me.
Because of this demographic,privilege moves and changes.
White privilege means that alot of these systems have been
built to serve white people orat least haven't put barriers in
front of white people the waythey have in front of people of
other races.
You could have white privilegeand then also be disabled and
(04:52):
not have the privilege of anable to body.
That means that in some rooms,if you are in an old disabled
room and you're speaking, yourwhite privilege is probably
going to be speaking.
If you are moving through mixedcompany and you're trying to
get into a building that's notaccessible, your white privilege
isn't going to do much.
It varies and is situational.
(05:15):
Where it has value is not totell people you don't have
anything to say or you're wrongor you've taken something.
It's, you may not be gettingthe full picture and you may not
be understanding your fullpower.
The flip side of that is that Ialways want people to
understand why it's so vitalthat we understand our privilege
(05:36):
, our own personal privilege,even more than we understand the
privileges of others is where Ihave the power of privilege.
I can make change.
If I'm not making change, I'malready being co-opted into harm
.
I have light-skinned privilege.
That means that if I am in aroom and people are looking at
(06:00):
speakers to book, I am afriendlier face to a lot of
white people making thesedecisions.
I have cisgender privilege.
I have able-bodied privilege.
I have class privilege.
Now, all of those things mean Iam in spaces other people can't
be.
I have a platform other peoplemay not have, but it also means
(06:25):
I don't have the full picture ofoppression in these spaces.
I have to be listening and Ihave to be willing to weaponize
what I have for the greater good.
I have to be able to say hey, Iknow you asked me to be on this
panel, but I'm not seeing anypeople darker than me on this
panel.
I don't think I'm the person tobe here.
They hear me in a different waythan if a dark-skinned person
(06:48):
said how come you don't havedarker-skinned people on the
panel?
I have to be willing to say that, but I can only say it if I'm
willing to embrace where I am inthe world and what that
responsibility is.
If you want to do real good inthe world and be effective, it's
actually a really wonderfulthing to engage with your
(07:09):
privilege and to be aware of.
I want people to stop beingafraid of it.
It isn't a feel guilty.
It's a - You have powerfulskills that can be utilized,
please, you know about it rightIf you think about it yeah
because sometimes, when youwalking in your privilege,
you're not thinking about it,because it's natural.
Yes, and that's why we have tobe open for it.
Grantley Martelly (07:29):
So I actually talk about reality involved.
Ijeoma Oluo (07:32):
Yeah, yeah, and I tell people to practice.
So I have a ritual every newyear I actually sit down and I
take a new stock of privilegeand I say how has my situation
changed in the last year?
What space is in my hand?
Who's in my circles?
Who am I hearing from?
Who am I not hearing from rightnow?
And I start to guess.
(07:52):
You know where might I belacking privilege?
And so I start listening toother voices.
You know where might I havemore privilege?
I start asking what ishappening and I make a new list
of things to try to be aware of.
And practicing that when I feelsafe, when I feel calm, makes
me better able to hear it whensomeone says to me hey, you know
(08:12):
what your privilege has runwild here and you've really
caused some harm.
And because I'm used to kind ofinvestigating that, yeah, I
still get a little defensive atfirst and I can take a deep
breath and go, oh, you know what, I'm being taught something
really important right nowbecause I'm more used to looking
at that.
So it's a skill like anythingelse.
Grantley Martelly (08:32):
A skill?
Yes, so how does that relate tointersectionality?
Ijeoma Oluo (08:36):
Well, you have to understand privilege in order to
be able to understandintersectionality.
And that's why even in my book,I have the privilege chapter
right before intersectionality,because it's a lot of people
will throw around terms likeintersectionality and have no
idea of their privilege.
And I always remember I was atan event at a Ivy League
(09:01):
institution and they weresupposed to be talking about
race and issues of race at thisluncheon and they had a white
woman talking and she did nottalk about race, she was talking
, talking, talking.
She goes I'm supposed to betalking about race and she's
like and you may notice, I'm awhite one, I'm a white person,
but I'm also the woman andthat's called intersectionality.
(09:22):
And then she just talked aboutbeing a white woman and I was
like no, this is not.
This is the failure ofunderstanding privilege right
here, because it's not justsaying we have a woman in the
room.
You have to understand in thatspace what your privilege is.
So intersectionality isbasically the understanding that
privilege is relative and thatyou bring multiple identities
(09:45):
into a space that have differentprivileges and different
oppressions, and thoseidentities interact with systems
differently and if we are goingto be building effective
solutions to oppression, we haveto be willing to look at all of
those different interactions,most importantly so that we can
center those most impacted.
And so I always tell people ifwe center those most impacted,
(10:09):
it will serve all of us.
If we center those leastimpacted, it will only serve
those least impacted.
And so, understanding that whenI enter a room, I am a black
queer woman in every room I'm in, and that means that when we're
talking about issues aroundrace, people have to be able to
understand my sexual identityand my gender and how racism
(10:31):
interacts with that.
If I am in feminist spaces,people have to be willing to
look at my sexual identity andmy race and understand that
solutions that they areproposing may well make me less
safe.
So lack of intersectionality canhave a real, incredible
functional harm, and I thinkit's really important that we
talk about that part, becausewhen Dr Kimberly Crenshaw
(10:55):
developed this term, that's whatshe was looking at.
She was not looking at are wehaving fun conversations?
Does everyone feel welcome?
She was looking at are weputting in place policies that
are harming people?
And so if we look at thingslike gender-based violence and
we look at organizations tryingto keep women safe from
gender-based violence, fromsexual assault, from
(11:17):
relationship assault, and theysay we're going to partner with
police to make sure that policeare showing up every day, that
every time that someone's called, please come and they're ready
to charge someone.
Sending police officers to thehome of black people who may be
an emotionally charged situationis a very different situation
(11:41):
than sending them to the home ofwhite people.
You are putting everyone indanger.
So even looking at that, that'sa failure of intersectionality.
And we know black women whohave been killed or their
partners have been killed ortheir children, just in the news
.
What was it?
Last week A young boy was shotin the chest because he called
(12:03):
seeking safety for his mother.
So that is a failure ofintersectionality that we don't
support and build up systemsthat say, hey, these carceral
solutions don't interact withpeople of other races in the
same way or with disabled peoplein the same way, and so it's
really important that we saythis makes us our work not only
(12:23):
work better, but it stops itfrom causing real, serious harm.
Grantley Martelly (12:27):
That is a beautiful explanation, probably
one of the clearest I've heardin a long time.
I appreciate that.
You also said one more that yousaid in the book that I thought
was very powerful that classand race are not the same thing.
Ijeoma Oluo (12:45):
Yeah, and it's something that I have to
constantly reiterate to people.
You know, race is a function ofclass, right?
So racism, as we know it, is afunction of class.
This whole idea thatpopulations of color were built
(13:06):
to be exploited, our threats,are not supposed to be able to
fully participate in economicwealth, is a function of class,
and it is meant to make surethat there is always a labor
force you can get really cheap,if not free, labor from, but
also to lock white people intheir space amongst class.
(13:28):
That being said, it has its ownfunctions, it is its own thing,
it has its own identity.
Now, and if you're unwilling tolook at race and how it holds
its own separate levers, evenwithin class, you will never
actually come up with anyeffective class based solutions.
(13:48):
And so a lot of times, peoplesay it's not race, it's class.
You can't separate the two.
And so even in my book, I saidyou know, ask yourself, are
black people in America poor?
For the same reason, whitepeople in America are poor?
No, they're not, because notonly do different factors impact
us, but the factors that impactus all impact us to a greater
(14:10):
degree, and so if we don'trecognize that, not only do we
not get complete solutions, butracism can always be weaponized.
So when we look at the downfallof the labor unions in the
United States over recentdecades, what we see time and
time again is race being used todrive that wedge.
Right.
(14:31):
We see workers saying you know,the problem isn't that you're
not unionized, it's that we havea form of action or the.
You know, if you go on strike,we're going to get laborers of
color to come in for less payand take your jobs, right.
Or we're going to ship yourjobs overseas to workers of
color who are willing to workfor nothing, right.
And of course quote unquotewilling to work is an assumption
(14:53):
, right.
And time and time again, laborunions have fallen for, and what
it means is that some of thebiggest labor forces we have,
right, young workers of color,don't feel like union, support
them, and so then conservativescan come in and say why are you
paying your union dues?
They won't do anything for you.
And that's actually very truefor a lot of workers of color,
(15:16):
because racism has effectivelyseparated workers of color from
labor unions, right.
So I want people to understandthat it's not just we have to
understand race.
We can have effective solutionsto class based scenarios, it's.
If we don't understand it, thewar against hyper- capitalism
(15:39):
will always be lost.
Grantley Martelly (15:43):
My guest today is Ijeoma Oluo, the author
of "Mediocre (15:47):
the Dangerous Legacy of White Male America,
and the one that we're talkingabout today, the New York Times
bestseller.
So you want to talk about race.
I want to tell you about myfriend, Darren Porter and his
great team at performanceaudio.
com.
Performanceaudio.
com can be your your yourone-stop shop for professional
(16:11):
quality electronics, live audiorecording, podcasting and live
performance.
I've been doing business withthe team at performance audio
for over 20 years and they havealways specialized in the
highest quality equipment atreasonable prices and they ship
worldwide.
So don't just settle for thecheapest thing on the Internet.
You get what you pay for.
(16:32):
Go to performanceaudio.
com and see the wide variety ofprofessional quality
electronics, recordingequipment, and live sound
reinforcement.
They even carry lighting andDJing resources, all at
reasonable prices.
So say hi to Darren and checkout Performanceaudio.
com.
(17:04):
These are some heavy topics andwe could spend an entire podcast
on one of these topics, butwe're trying to move people
through.
I'm not going to encourage youif you haven't got this book yet
.
A copy of this book is widelyavailable and, like Ijeoma says,
there's those topics in therethat help you understand some of
these definitions that peopleare just throwing around without
(17:28):
much understanding of what theymean and they're creating lots
of confusion.
Ijeoma, I raised a few thingsthat I picked out that I thought
would help people understand,but is there anyone that we
missed or a couple that you wantto talk about?
That needs to be explainedbefore we go into talking about
(17:49):
tools that people can use.
Ijeoma Oluo (17:53):
But one thing I would just, I guess I want to
stress right now for people is Iam seeing a lot of people act
as if there are certain hotzones for racist oppression and
there are cold zones and therearen't.
Everything is a hot zone rightnow.
Everything you're seeing in thenews happening in Florida,
(18:16):
happening in Idaho, happening inyou know all these other places
in Texas it's happening heretoo.
It may be happening in asmaller scale, it may be a
little quieter.
It's happening everywhere youlive in the United States and
you need to act accordingly.
And so I am actually reallyterrified right now with
(18:38):
watching how people are shakingtheir heads at the Florida
school bills that are making itillegal to talk about race and
to talk about gender, to talkabout sexuality, and people are
going oh, never go to Floridaand not realizing that, school
by school by school here in theSeattle area, it's also
happening right, and so I think-.
Grantley Martelly (18:58):
And in Washington state as well.
Ijeoma Oluo (19:00):
Absolutely, and people need to be very, very
proactive.
All of these schools anddistricts are being changed in
horrifically violent ways byfive, 10 parents showing up, and
what I want to know is whereare the 100 parents who believe
that real education and safespaces for kids is important?
(19:20):
Where are they?
Why are they waiting untilthese bills are passed?
And so we have to stop actinglike, oh, it's just in this one
area.
These are coordinated efforts,right?
So the paperwork, the talkingpoints, everything is being
packaged and sent to parentgroups all over the country to
ensure, because we aren'tshowing up and doing our job,
(19:42):
that a small minority ofterrified, ill-informed,
closed-minded kids can make ourchildren unsafe and change the
political landscape of thiscountry.
Grantley Martelly (19:55):
Yes, that is true, and I'm glad you brought
that up, because that issomething that many people don't
realize is happening right infront of their faces until it
happens and then it's like oh, Ididn't even realize that that
was going on.
I had no idea they were talkingto the legislators and that
somebody had proposed this bill.
People are actually supportingit.
(20:15):
At this point, as we look towrap up our hour together.
So what are three to five toolsthat you would share with
people who are saying this isvery interesting to me.
I'm one of those people whowant to help.
I just didn't understand.
I'm trying to understand, or Iwant to get engaged, but I don't
(20:35):
know what to do.
Ijeoma Oluo (20:38):
One I would say you should do and learn at the same
time.
So learning there are amazingbooks that have absolutely
informed a lot of the work I do.
Please lean into the work ofAngela Davis, lean into the work
of Franz van der Merriam-Kaba,right, learn about the
(21:02):
foundations of how these systemsare working.
And then also listen tocontemporary voices.
So right now, I would say themost important vital liberation
work in our society is beingdone by disabled people of color
, in particular disabled blackpeople.
So listening to those voicesentering these spaces with
(21:25):
respect to learn and support isreally important.
And then I would say, find outwhat's happening in your
neighborhood.
So pick one space, one spacethat interests you.
Do you love music?
Find out what's happening inyour local music scene.
Do you have children?
Find out what's happening inyour school districts, right.
Are you interested in localpolitics?
Find out what's happening inyour city, in your county, in
(21:45):
your state.
Look at what is happening witha racial analysis.
So start asking who's in thisspace, who's benefiting from
this space, who isn't, and thensay where's my power in this?
And so recognize where you havepower.
Who can you talk to?
Is it just you have a couple offriends that you know, great.
You know what.
(22:05):
Five people are better than one, right?
Is it?
People in your church listen toyou?
Is it?
You have the free time to showup at a school board meeting?
You know all of these thingsreally matter.
Look at that and then listen towhat people impacted people in
these communities have beensaying they need Ask people to
join you and start taking a step.
(22:26):
But just pick one area.
Pick one area that means a lotto you and really dive in.
So know things like you know.
For me, if it's school right.
As a parent, I'm alwaysthinking of schools.
I have to know what percentageof kids of color I have from my
schools.
I need to know how these kidsof color, broken down by race
and ethnicity, are graduating orfaring.
(22:48):
How many of them are beingsuspended or expelled.
Do we have cops in our schools?
How many teachers of color dowe have?
How many administrators ofcolor do we have?
How many school programs arebeing built to support these
kids right?
What processes do we have inplace for these kind of carceral
systems that come and play withstudents Knowing that?
Then I can pick this and say I'mgonna be showing up at these
(23:11):
school board meetings, I'm gonnabe taking this to my local
principal, I'm gonna be takingthis to parent-teacher
conferences and I'm gonna makesure that other parents I know
in my son's school know this aswell, and we're gonna come
together and we're gonna buildcommunication right.
That is one thing that I can do.
That may not seem huge, but itcould impact 30 beautiful
(23:34):
important children, or 3,000beautiful important children,
right.
And so I start there.
And so just start where you areand really build from there.
Grantley Martelly (23:45):
One that I would add and I think you said
it in your book was don't beafraid to fail at first.
You're not gonna be an expertcoming out to get.
Ijeoma Oluo (23:56):
Absolutely none of us will, right, and that doesn't
even matter necessarily yourrace or ethnicity, because we
all came up in these systemsthat have purposefully kept us
from important knowledge on howsystemic oppression works, you
know?
And so we're all going to messup.
Be open to that, while alsotaking accountability, right?
(24:17):
So I always tell people youhave to hold these two things in
your head.
It happens all the time andit's not okay, right?
So you didn't invent thatracist mess up that you made.
It's not okay, but you're notthe worst person in the world,
right?
So you have to hold both,saying okay, you know what.
This is part of a system.
There are multiple entitiesaccountable, and I am one of
those entities and I can takecontrol of my accountability and
(24:41):
learn and do better, right?
And so you have to manage that,because if you're desperately
afraid of finding out thatyou've caused harm, you're going
to run from it and then you'rejust going to keep causing harm.
Be open to it.
I always try to remind peopleit is so much worse to be
causing harm and never know thedebt.
(25:05):
Have someone tell you thatyou've caused harm and you have
the opportunity to absorb thatpain, learn and do better.
Every time someone brings harmto me that I have caused, it
absolutely hurts.
I never want to hear it, andthen I'm always so grateful that
someone was kind enough andgenerous enough to tell me so
(25:26):
that I can stop causing thatharm.
Grantley Martelly (25:29):
Right, learning from our mistakes and
moving forward.
One of the one I want to put onthe table also is that I've
found that hurts cause peoplenot to move is trying to believe
that because I want to getinvolved, before I can get
involved I have to become anexpert in everything.
(25:49):
I have to know every definition, I have to know all the
statistics, I have to be able toanswer every question and I'm
not going to start until I haveit all down right, which means
you're never going to start.
Ijeoma Oluo (26:02):
Right, and you don't have to, and I think it's
really important that peopleunderstand some of the best ways
in which we've been able tomove movements, build movements,
is by learning from each other.
So it's not, you know, andthat's the thing that's
frustrating, right, when you saw2020, and I always likened it
(26:22):
to if you're walking down thestreet and there's a house on
fire and you say, instead of I'mgoing to try to put this fire
out or I'm going to call somefor help, I'm going to go home
and read about the history offire, right, but that's not,
that's not the thing to be doing.
Great example, great example,great example, and so and it
doesn't it also doesn't mean yourun into the house with no idea
(26:45):
of what to do about fire.
It means you say, here, how canwe help?
Right, and that's what weshould be doing.
And then you can learn.
You do that enough and youlearn.
And when you have downtime,yeah, keep investing in that
learning, keep reading.
But we actually have people whoare doing this work every day
and you can support them, youcan follow their lead, right,
(27:08):
and then you can, when you havetime, enrich your knowledge by
these books.
You know, read these things,but get out and support the work
now.
And so, if you don't know,support the people that do.
You know, and please supportthe people that do.
Grantley Martelly (27:25):
And it's okay not to know it, because
knowledge accumulates over time.
Knowledge is not an instant intime.
Knowledge is a process.
Ijeoma Oluo (27:32):
Yes, and that's when I think one of the most
dangerous things about Americanculture is we actually shame
admitting you don't know,something, like we came out of
the womb with perfect knowledge.
And it's so dangerous becauseyou see people afraid to admit
they were wrong, afraid to justsay I don't know.
And I was actually just tellingmy partner this.
He's the only man in my entirelife I've ever known who stops
(27:58):
me in the middle ofconversations and says wait, I
don't know what that word means,what is that?
And I've never experienced thatin my life.
Wow, and that's how rare it is.
But he wants to know.
He's not thinking oh it'sembarrassing that I don't know
this thing.
He's thinking I can't fullylearn and engage If I don't just
(28:19):
say I don't know what thatmeans.
I understand and you know.
So many people would say oh God,you know.
And we see that online, right?
Someone says I'm so sorry, Ididn't know.
People like you don't haveanything to apologize for.
Never apologize why?
Why not just say but you don'tknow?
We have to do that.
That's how we learn.
Grantley Martelly (28:35):
Have to do that.
So is there anything any of theclosing comments you wanna add
before we wrap it up?
Ijeoma Oluo (28:41):
No, I think that's it.
I just hope that people get outthere and start asking
themselves, who am I not hearingfrom?
And start diversifying wherethey're getting their news,
where they're getting theirinformation.
Grantley Martelly (28:52):
But thank you very, very much Again.
I am privileged that you choseto join me and privileged you
chose to be my guest.
The way that we met each otherwas a whole other story.
It's just, I don't believe incoincidences.
Somebody told me God had thatordained that way so that you
would meet her, because it wasnot even on any of our paths for
(29:14):
us to have met.
And I am thankful that I didmeet you at some good
conversations and our group isstill talking about how powerful
that was.
I had somebody call me theother day and says I was on the
edge of my seat and I could havelistened to her for another
hour and not even realize howfast the time had gone.
(29:34):
So you made a dramatic impacton our team and I thank you for
that and I wish you all the beston Godspeed and all the
important work that you're doing, because it's changing lives
and changing communities andit's helping people learn how to
be changed agents.
And I appreciate you for beingthat outspoken person, because
(29:56):
being outspoken doesn'tnecessarily it's not necessarily
a bad thing when it is in theright places.
Ijeoma Oluo (30:03):
Thank you.
Thank you so much and it was areal pleasure to talk with you
and a real pleasure to meet you.
Grantley Martelly (30:10):
Wow, I think we'll have to have you drama
back again.
I hope that you enjoyed thisTwo episodes talking about these
topics, that you've been moreenlightened, you now have a
reference to go where, if you'rehaving discussions, you can use
those topics in the book tosort of begin the discussion, to
frame it out, and then peoplecan always diverge about whether
(30:32):
they agree with the definitionor not and have discussion, but
at least now there's a referencepoint that we can all begin to
agree with.
So that's a good starting pointand then discussions can go
from there and maybe they'llalso help be a good tool to
share with someone else who maybe trying to understand these
topics as you drama closes out.
She reminded us that we can allget involved.
(30:55):
We can all do somethingdifferent.
She reminded us that do andlearn at the same time.
We don't have to do things insequence.
We can get involved as we learn.
We can find out what ishappening in our local
communities, and then we canshow up and let our voice be
heard.
We can ask people to join us.
And also, don't be afraid tofail.
(31:17):
We'll all fail.
We'll all have difficult times,but the more we get comfortable
doing it, the better we becomeat it, and no one is an expert
when they start anything.
We all are learning together.
Thanks for joining us and seeyou next time.
["the Last Song of the Year"].
Remember to subscribe and leaveus a rating.
(31:39):
Ratings are very important tohelp in our podcasts, succeed in
the podcast universe andhelping it become known to other
people.
Email us your comments atabovethenoise24 at gmailcom.
Abovethenoise24 at gmailcom,and follow us on Instagram and
Facebook at abovethenoise24.
(32:01):
Thank you for listening andplease share this episode with a
friend.
["the Last Song of the Year"].
["the Last Song of the Year"].
Welcome to Above the Noise, a podcast at
the intersection of faith, raceand reconciliation, and I'm your
Grantley Martelly.
My guest on this two-partepisode is Ijeoma Oluo, a mom,
(00:30):
writer, and speaker on race andidentity in America, and she is
the author of the book that weare discussing, "So you want to
talk about race?
I hope that you enjoyed partone of Ijeoma's story and her
life experience.
If you haven't listened to partone, I would encourage you to
go back and do so.
It would make a lot of sense aswe continue into part two.
(00:52):
Her story is compelling andenlightening.
In this episode, we will divefurther into defining terms and
discussion around ensuring thatwe have some common clarity
around the topics that are soimportant to move the needle
ahead on this topic, we'lldiscuss what is racism, what is
(01:13):
intersectionality, what isprivilege and the difference
between race and class.
I will conclude with some ideasthat may be helpful for you.
If you want to explore further,let's rejoin the conversation
with Ijeoma, the author of soYou Want to Talk About Race?
Ijeoma Oluo (01:36):
The definition of racism I work with is bias
against people because of theirracial identity, skin color
features.
That is backed up by systems ofpower.
The reason why I add that andthat's the part that people
often don't like is becausewe're talking about the ways in
which it impacts people's lives.
When we're just talking aboutpeople who have bias against
(01:59):
people because of their racialidentity, we're talking about
feelings.
We're talking about oh, youmade me sad, oh, you don't like
me.
You know what that might ruinyour afternoon.
It's not going to ruin yourlife.
When we're talking about systemsof power, we're talking about a
fear of you because your skincolor has been instilled in me
and now I can call the policeand you might die.
(02:19):
That is a very different thing.
The thing that I always tellpeople if they have trouble with
sticking to this definition iswhat is the problem you're
trying to solve?
Are you trying to solve hurtfeelings or are you trying to
save lives?
If you're trying to save lives,then we need to focus on these
(02:40):
systemically generated andsupported biases.
Grantley Martelly (02:45):
Let's talk about that as well the systems
and the institutions, becauseyou spend a lot of time talking
about that in your book as well.
Let's talk about our privilegeand then intersectionality, two
other things that peoplestruggle with understanding.
What my experience is that youcan go over yours, is if you
just talk about privilege,everybody is yeah, I understand
(03:07):
that.
You say white privilege and nowall of a sudden it's a
different environment.
The same welcoming environmentnow turns 180 degrees.
Yeah, absolutely.
Ijeoma Oluo (03:19):
It's interesting to me because I think part of that
is we've weaponized privilegeinstead of talking about it as a
really useful descriptor forhow people move through systems.
I honestly I have so many bonesto pick with the way in which
we've talked about privilegeover the years.
I don't know, have you everdone that privilege knapsack
(03:42):
exercise that a lot of oldschool equity teachers like to
do?
Where they're like make a listand that's your privilege
knapsack.
It makes it seem like privilegeare these bunch of gifts that
you carry around with you thatjust keep you moving through the
(04:02):
world easily.
If you're someone who hassuffered in life, you don't feel
like you're walking around witha bunch of gifts.
It's also not how privilegeworks.
Privilege is not necessarily Imoved through the world with all
these gifts.
This system has been designedto serve me in a particular way
(04:27):
and hasn't put particularbarriers in front of me.
Because of this demographic,privilege moves and changes.
White privilege means that alot of these systems have been
built to serve white people orat least haven't put barriers in
front of white people the waythey have in front of people of
other races.
You could have white privilegeand then also be disabled and
(04:52):
not have the privilege of anable to body.
That means that in some rooms,if you are in an old disabled
room and you're speaking, yourwhite privilege is probably
going to be speaking.
If you are moving through mixedcompany and you're trying to
get into a building that's notaccessible, your white privilege
isn't going to do much.
It varies and is situational.
(05:15):
Where it has value is not totell people you don't have
anything to say or you're wrongor you've taken something.
It's, you may not be gettingthe full picture and you may not
be understanding your fullpower.
The flip side of that is that Ialways want people to
understand why it's so vitalthat we understand our privilege
(05:36):
, our own personal privilege,even more than we understand the
privileges of others is where Ihave the power of privilege.
I can make change.
If I'm not making change, I'malready being co-opted into harm
.
I have light-skinned privilege.
That means that if I am in aroom and people are looking at
(06:00):
speakers to book, I am afriendlier face to a lot of
white people making thesedecisions.
I have cisgender privilege.
I have able-bodied privilege.
I have class privilege.
Now, all of those things mean Iam in spaces other people can't
be.
I have a platform other peoplemay not have, but it also means
(06:25):
I don't have the full picture ofoppression in these spaces.
I have to be listening and Ihave to be willing to weaponize
what I have for the greater good.
I have to be able to say hey, Iknow you asked me to be on this
panel, but I'm not seeing anypeople darker than me on this
panel.
I don't think I'm the person tobe here.
They hear me in a different waythan if a dark-skinned person
(06:48):
said how come you don't havedarker-skinned people on the
panel?
I have to be willing to say that, but I can only say it if I'm
willing to embrace where I am inthe world and what that
responsibility is.
If you want to do real good inthe world and be effective, it's
actually a really wonderfulthing to engage with your
(07:09):
privilege and to be aware of.
I want people to stop beingafraid of it.
It isn't a feel guilty.
It's a - You have powerfulskills that can be utilized,
please, you know about it rightIf you think about it yeah
because sometimes, when youwalking in your privilege,
you're not thinking about it,because it's natural.
Yes, and that's why we have tobe open for it.
Grantley Martelly (07:29):
So I actually talk about reality involved.
Ijeoma Oluo (07:32):
Yeah, yeah, and I tell people to practice.
So I have a ritual every newyear I actually sit down and I
take a new stock of privilegeand I say how has my situation
changed in the last year?
What space is in my hand?
Who's in my circles?
Who am I hearing from?
Who am I not hearing from rightnow?
And I start to guess.
(07:52):
You know where might I belacking privilege?
And so I start listening toother voices.
You know where might I havemore privilege?
I start asking what ishappening and I make a new list
of things to try to be aware of.
And practicing that when I feelsafe, when I feel calm, makes
me better able to hear it whensomeone says to me hey, you know
(08:12):
what your privilege has runwild here and you've really
caused some harm.
And because I'm used to kind ofinvestigating that, yeah, I
still get a little defensive atfirst and I can take a deep
breath and go, oh, you know what, I'm being taught something
really important right nowbecause I'm more used to looking
at that.
So it's a skill like anythingelse.
Grantley Martelly (08:32):
A skill?
Yes, so how does that relate tointersectionality?
Ijeoma Oluo (08:36):
Well, you have to understand privilege in order to
be able to understandintersectionality.
And that's why even in my book,I have the privilege chapter
right before intersectionality,because it's a lot of people
will throw around terms likeintersectionality and have no
idea of their privilege.
And I always remember I was atan event at a Ivy League
(09:01):
institution and they weresupposed to be talking about
race and issues of race at thisluncheon and they had a white
woman talking and she did nottalk about race, she was talking
, talking, talking.
She goes I'm supposed to betalking about race and she's
like and you may notice, I'm awhite one, I'm a white person,
but I'm also the woman andthat's called intersectionality.
(09:22):
And then she just talked aboutbeing a white woman and I was
like no, this is not.
This is the failure ofunderstanding privilege right
here, because it's not justsaying we have a woman in the
room.
You have to understand in thatspace what your privilege is.
So intersectionality isbasically the understanding that
privilege is relative and thatyou bring multiple identities
(09:45):
into a space that have differentprivileges and different
oppressions, and thoseidentities interact with systems
differently and if we are goingto be building effective
solutions to oppression, we haveto be willing to look at all of
those different interactions,most importantly so that we can
center those most impacted.
And so I always tell people ifwe center those most impacted,
(10:09):
it will serve all of us.
If we center those leastimpacted, it will only serve
those least impacted.
And so, understanding that whenI enter a room, I am a black
queer woman in every room I'm in, and that means that when we're
talking about issues aroundrace, people have to be able to
understand my sexual identityand my gender and how racism
(10:31):
interacts with that.
If I am in feminist spaces,people have to be willing to
look at my sexual identity andmy race and understand that
solutions that they areproposing may well make me less
safe.
So lack of intersectionality canhave a real, incredible
functional harm, and I thinkit's really important that we
talk about that part, becausewhen Dr Kimberly Crenshaw
(10:55):
developed this term, that's whatshe was looking at.
She was not looking at are wehaving fun conversations?
Does everyone feel welcome?
She was looking at are weputting in place policies that
are harming people?
And so if we look at thingslike gender-based violence and
we look at organizations tryingto keep women safe from
gender-based violence, fromsexual assault, from
(11:17):
relationship assault, and theysay we're going to partner with
police to make sure that policeare showing up every day, that
every time that someone's called, please come and they're ready
to charge someone.
Sending police officers to thehome of black people who may be
an emotionally charged situationis a very different situation
(11:41):
than sending them to the home ofwhite people.
You are putting everyone indanger.
So even looking at that, that'sa failure of intersectionality.
And we know black women whohave been killed or their
partners have been killed ortheir children, just in the news
.
What was it?
Last week A young boy was shotin the chest because he called
(12:03):
seeking safety for his mother.
So that is a failure ofintersectionality that we don't
support and build up systemsthat say, hey, these carceral
solutions don't interact withpeople of other races in the
same way or with disabled peoplein the same way, and so it's
really important that we saythis makes us our work not only
(12:23):
work better, but it stops itfrom causing real, serious harm.
Grantley Martelly (12:27):
That is a beautiful explanation, probably
one of the clearest I've heardin a long time.
I appreciate that.
You also said one more that yousaid in the book that I thought
was very powerful that classand race are not the same thing.
Ijeoma Oluo (12:45):
Yeah, and it's something that I have to
constantly reiterate to people.
You know, race is a function ofclass, right?
So racism, as we know it, is afunction of class.
This whole idea thatpopulations of color were built
(13:06):
to be exploited, our threats,are not supposed to be able to
fully participate in economicwealth, is a function of class,
and it is meant to make surethat there is always a labor
force you can get really cheap,if not free, labor from, but
also to lock white people intheir space amongst class.
(13:28):
That being said, it has its ownfunctions, it is its own thing,
it has its own identity.
Now, and if you're unwilling tolook at race and how it holds
its own separate levers, evenwithin class, you will never
actually come up with anyeffective class based solutions.
(13:48):
And so a lot of times, peoplesay it's not race, it's class.
You can't separate the two.
And so even in my book, I saidyou know, ask yourself, are
black people in America poor?
For the same reason, whitepeople in America are poor?
No, they're not, because notonly do different factors impact
us, but the factors that impactus all impact us to a greater
(14:10):
degree, and so if we don'trecognize that, not only do we
not get complete solutions, butracism can always be weaponized.
So when we look at the downfallof the labor unions in the
United States over recentdecades, what we see time and
time again is race being used todrive that wedge.
Right.
(14:31):
We see workers saying you know,the problem isn't that you're
not unionized, it's that we havea form of action or the.
You know, if you go on strike,we're going to get laborers of
color to come in for less payand take your jobs, right.
Or we're going to ship yourjobs overseas to workers of
color who are willing to workfor nothing, right.
And of course quote unquotewilling to work is an assumption
(14:53):
, right.
And time and time again, laborunions have fallen for, and what
it means is that some of thebiggest labor forces we have,
right, young workers of color,don't feel like union, support
them, and so then conservativescan come in and say why are you
paying your union dues?
They won't do anything for you.
And that's actually very truefor a lot of workers of color,
(15:16):
because racism has effectivelyseparated workers of color from
labor unions, right.
So I want people to understandthat it's not just we have to
understand race.
We can have effective solutionsto class based scenarios, it's.
If we don't understand it, thewar against hyper- capitalism
(15:39):
will always be lost.
Grantley Martelly (15:43):
My guest today is Ijeoma Oluo, the author
of "Mediocre (15:47):
the Dangerous Legacy of White Male America,
and the one that we're talkingabout today, the New York Times
bestseller.
So you want to talk about race.
I want to tell you about myfriend, Darren Porter and his
great team at performanceaudio.
com.
Performanceaudio.
com can be your your yourone-stop shop for professional
(16:11):
quality electronics, live audiorecording, podcasting and live
performance.
I've been doing business withthe team at performance audio
for over 20 years and they havealways specialized in the
highest quality equipment atreasonable prices and they ship
worldwide.
So don't just settle for thecheapest thing on the Internet.
You get what you pay for.
(16:32):
Go to performanceaudio.
com and see the wide variety ofprofessional quality
electronics, recordingequipment, and live sound
reinforcement.
They even carry lighting andDJing resources, all at
reasonable prices.
So say hi to Darren and checkout Performanceaudio.
com.
(17:04):
These are some heavy topics andwe could spend an entire podcast
on one of these topics, butwe're trying to move people
through.
I'm not going to encourage youif you haven't got this book yet
.
A copy of this book is widelyavailable and, like Ijeoma says,
there's those topics in therethat help you understand some of
these definitions that peopleare just throwing around without
(17:28):
much understanding of what theymean and they're creating lots
of confusion.
Ijeoma, I raised a few thingsthat I picked out that I thought
would help people understand,but is there anyone that we
missed or a couple that you wantto talk about?
That needs to be explainedbefore we go into talking about
(17:49):
tools that people can use.
Ijeoma Oluo (17:53):
But one thing I would just, I guess I want to
stress right now for people is Iam seeing a lot of people act
as if there are certain hotzones for racist oppression and
there are cold zones and therearen't.
Everything is a hot zone rightnow.
Everything you're seeing in thenews happening in Florida,
(18:16):
happening in Idaho, happening inyou know all these other places
in Texas it's happening heretoo.
It may be happening in asmaller scale, it may be a
little quieter.
It's happening everywhere youlive in the United States and
you need to act accordingly.
And so I am actually reallyterrified right now with
(18:38):
watching how people are shakingtheir heads at the Florida
school bills that are making itillegal to talk about race and
to talk about gender, to talkabout sexuality, and people are
going oh, never go to Floridaand not realizing that, school
by school by school here in theSeattle area, it's also
happening right, and so I think-.
Grantley Martelly (18:58):
And in Washington state as well.
Ijeoma Oluo (19:00):
Absolutely, and people need to be very, very
proactive.
All of these schools anddistricts are being changed in
horrifically violent ways byfive, 10 parents showing up, and
what I want to know is whereare the 100 parents who believe
that real education and safespaces for kids is important?
(19:20):
Where are they?
Why are they waiting untilthese bills are passed?
And so we have to stop actinglike, oh, it's just in this one
area.
These are coordinated efforts,right?
So the paperwork, the talkingpoints, everything is being
packaged and sent to parentgroups all over the country to
ensure, because we aren'tshowing up and doing our job,
(19:42):
that a small minority ofterrified, ill-informed,
closed-minded kids can make ourchildren unsafe and change the
political landscape of thiscountry.
Grantley Martelly (19:55):
Yes, that is true, and I'm glad you brought
that up, because that issomething that many people don't
realize is happening right infront of their faces until it
happens and then it's like oh, Ididn't even realize that that
was going on.
I had no idea they were talkingto the legislators and that
somebody had proposed this bill.
People are actually supportingit.
(20:15):
At this point, as we look towrap up our hour together.
So what are three to five toolsthat you would share with
people who are saying this isvery interesting to me.
I'm one of those people whowant to help.
I just didn't understand.
I'm trying to understand, or Iwant to get engaged, but I don't
(20:35):
know what to do.
Ijeoma Oluo (20:38):
One I would say you should do and learn at the same
time.
So learning there are amazingbooks that have absolutely
informed a lot of the work I do.
Please lean into the work ofAngela Davis, lean into the work
of Franz van der Merriam-Kaba,right, learn about the
(21:02):
foundations of how these systemsare working.
And then also listen tocontemporary voices.
So right now, I would say themost important vital liberation
work in our society is beingdone by disabled people of color
, in particular disabled blackpeople.
So listening to those voicesentering these spaces with
(21:25):
respect to learn and support isreally important.
And then I would say, find outwhat's happening in your
neighborhood.
So pick one space, one spacethat interests you.
Do you love music?
Find out what's happening inyour local music scene.
Do you have children?
Find out what's happening inyour school districts, right.
Are you interested in localpolitics?
Find out what's happening inyour city, in your county, in
(21:45):
your state.
Look at what is happening witha racial analysis.
So start asking who's in thisspace, who's benefiting from
this space, who isn't, and thensay where's my power in this?
And so recognize where you havepower.
Who can you talk to?
Is it just you have a couple offriends that you know, great.
You know what.
(22:05):
Five people are better than one, right?
Is it?
People in your church listen toyou?
Is it?
You have the free time to showup at a school board meeting?
You know all of these thingsreally matter.
Look at that and then listen towhat people impacted people in
these communities have beensaying they need Ask people to
join you and start taking a step.
(22:26):
But just pick one area.
Pick one area that means a lotto you and really dive in.
So know things like you know.
For me, if it's school right.
As a parent, I'm alwaysthinking of schools.
I have to know what percentageof kids of color I have from my
schools.
I need to know how these kidsof color, broken down by race
and ethnicity, are graduating orfaring.
(22:48):
How many of them are beingsuspended or expelled.
Do we have cops in our schools?
How many teachers of color dowe have?
How many administrators ofcolor do we have?
How many school programs arebeing built to support these
kids right?
What processes do we have inplace for these kind of carceral
systems that come and play withstudents Knowing that?
Then I can pick this and say I'mgonna be showing up at these
(23:11):
school board meetings, I'm gonnabe taking this to my local
principal, I'm gonna be takingthis to parent-teacher
conferences and I'm gonna makesure that other parents I know
in my son's school know this aswell, and we're gonna come
together and we're gonna buildcommunication right.
That is one thing that I can do.
That may not seem huge, but itcould impact 30 beautiful
(23:34):
important children, or 3,000beautiful important children,
right.
And so I start there.
And so just start where you areand really build from there.
Grantley Martelly (23:45):
One that I would add and I think you said
it in your book was don't beafraid to fail at first.
You're not gonna be an expertcoming out to get.
Ijeoma Oluo (23:56):
Absolutely none of us will, right, and that doesn't
even matter necessarily yourrace or ethnicity, because we
all came up in these systemsthat have purposefully kept us
from important knowledge on howsystemic oppression works, you
know?
And so we're all going to messup.
Be open to that, while alsotaking accountability, right?
(24:17):
So I always tell people youhave to hold these two things in
your head.
It happens all the time andit's not okay, right?
So you didn't invent thatracist mess up that you made.
It's not okay, but you're notthe worst person in the world,
right?
So you have to hold both,saying okay, you know what.
This is part of a system.
There are multiple entitiesaccountable, and I am one of
those entities and I can takecontrol of my accountability and
(24:41):
learn and do better, right?
And so you have to manage that,because if you're desperately
afraid of finding out thatyou've caused harm, you're going
to run from it and then you'rejust going to keep causing harm.
Be open to it.
I always try to remind peopleit is so much worse to be
causing harm and never know thedebt.
(25:05):
Have someone tell you thatyou've caused harm and you have
the opportunity to absorb thatpain, learn and do better.
Every time someone brings harmto me that I have caused, it
absolutely hurts.
I never want to hear it, andthen I'm always so grateful that
someone was kind enough andgenerous enough to tell me so
(25:26):
that I can stop causing thatharm.
Grantley Martelly (25:29):
Right, learning from our mistakes and
moving forward.
One of the one I want to put onthe table also is that I've
found that hurts cause peoplenot to move is trying to believe
that because I want to getinvolved, before I can get
involved I have to become anexpert in everything.
(25:49):
I have to know every definition, I have to know all the
statistics, I have to be able toanswer every question and I'm
not going to start until I haveit all down right, which means
you're never going to start.
Ijeoma Oluo (26:02):
Right, and you don't have to, and I think it's
really important that peopleunderstand some of the best ways
in which we've been able tomove movements, build movements,
is by learning from each other.
So it's not, you know, andthat's the thing that's
frustrating, right, when you saw2020, and I always likened it
(26:22):
to if you're walking down thestreet and there's a house on
fire and you say, instead of I'mgoing to try to put this fire
out or I'm going to call somefor help, I'm going to go home
and read about the history offire, right, but that's not,
that's not the thing to be doing.
Great example, great example,great example, and so and it
doesn't it also doesn't mean yourun into the house with no idea
(26:45):
of what to do about fire.
It means you say, here, how canwe help?
Right, and that's what weshould be doing.
And then you can learn.
You do that enough and youlearn.
And when you have downtime,yeah, keep investing in that
learning, keep reading.
But we actually have people whoare doing this work every day
and you can support them, youcan follow their lead, right,
(27:08):
and then you can, when you havetime, enrich your knowledge by
these books.
You know, read these things,but get out and support the work
now.
And so, if you don't know,support the people that do.
You know, and please supportthe people that do.
Grantley Martelly (27:25):
And it's okay not to know it, because
knowledge accumulates over time.
Knowledge is not an instant intime.
Knowledge is a process.
Ijeoma Oluo (27:32):
Yes, and that's when I think one of the most
dangerous things about Americanculture is we actually shame
admitting you don't know,something, like we came out of
the womb with perfect knowledge.
And it's so dangerous becauseyou see people afraid to admit
they were wrong, afraid to justsay I don't know.
And I was actually just tellingmy partner this.
He's the only man in my entirelife I've ever known who stops
(27:58):
me in the middle ofconversations and says wait, I
don't know what that word means,what is that?
And I've never experienced thatin my life.
Wow, and that's how rare it is.
But he wants to know.
He's not thinking oh it'sembarrassing that I don't know
this thing.
He's thinking I can't fullylearn and engage If I don't just
(28:19):
say I don't know what thatmeans.
I understand and you know.
So many people would say oh God,you know.
And we see that online, right?
Someone says I'm so sorry, Ididn't know.
People like you don't haveanything to apologize for.
Never apologize why?
Why not just say but you don'tknow?
We have to do that.
That's how we learn.
Grantley Martelly (28:35):
Have to do that.
So is there anything any of theclosing comments you wanna add
before we wrap it up?
Ijeoma Oluo (28:41):
No, I think that's it.
I just hope that people get outthere and start asking
themselves, who am I not hearingfrom?
And start diversifying wherethey're getting their news,
where they're getting theirinformation.
Grantley Martelly (28:52):
But thank you very, very much Again.
I am privileged that you choseto join me and privileged you
chose to be my guest.
The way that we met each otherwas a whole other story.
It's just, I don't believe incoincidences.
Somebody told me God had thatordained that way so that you
would meet her, because it wasnot even on any of our paths for
(29:14):
us to have met.
And I am thankful that I didmeet you at some good
conversations and our group isstill talking about how powerful
that was.
I had somebody call me theother day and says I was on the
edge of my seat and I could havelistened to her for another
hour and not even realize howfast the time had gone.
(29:34):
So you made a dramatic impacton our team and I thank you for
that and I wish you all the beston Godspeed and all the
important work that you're doing, because it's changing lives
and changing communities andit's helping people learn how to
be changed agents.
And I appreciate you for beingthat outspoken person, because
(29:56):
being outspoken doesn'tnecessarily it's not necessarily
a bad thing when it is in theright places.
Ijeoma Oluo (30:03):
Thank you.
Thank you so much and it was areal pleasure to talk with you
and a real pleasure to meet you.
Grantley Martelly (30:10):
Wow, I think we'll have to have you drama
back again.
I hope that you enjoyed thisTwo episodes talking about these
topics, that you've been moreenlightened, you now have a
reference to go where, if you'rehaving discussions, you can use
those topics in the book tosort of begin the discussion, to
frame it out, and then peoplecan always diverge about whether
(30:32):
they agree with the definitionor not and have discussion, but
at least now there's a referencepoint that we can all begin to
agree with.
So that's a good starting pointand then discussions can go
from there and maybe they'llalso help be a good tool to
share with someone else who maybe trying to understand these
topics as you drama closes out.
She reminded us that we can allget involved.
(30:55):
We can all do somethingdifferent.
She reminded us that do andlearn at the same time.
We don't have to do things insequence.
We can get involved as we learn.
We can find out what ishappening in our local
communities, and then we canshow up and let our voice be
heard.
We can ask people to join us.
And also, don't be afraid tofail.
(31:17):
We'll all fail.
We'll all have difficult times,but the more we get comfortable
doing it, the better we becomeat it, and no one is an expert
when they start anything.
We all are learning together.
Thanks for joining us and seeyou next time.
["the Last Song of the Year"].
Remember to subscribe and leaveus a rating.
(31:39):
Ratings are very important tohelp in our podcasts, succeed in
the podcast universe andhelping it become known to other
people.
Email us your comments atabovethenoise24 at gmailcom.
Abovethenoise24 at gmailcom,and follow us on Instagram and
Facebook at abovethenoise24.
(32:01):
Thank you for listening andplease share this episode with a
friend.
["the Last Song of the Year"].
["the Last Song of the Year"].
Popular Podcasts
United States of Kennedy
United States of Kennedy is a podcast about our cultural fascination with the Kennedy dynasty. Every week, hosts Lyra Smith and George Civeris go into one aspect of the Kennedy story.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com