January 24, 2024 • 61 mins
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Have you ever been in a setting where the lines between faith, race, and identity become blurred? As a person of color navigating various professional terrains—I share honest reflections on representation and integrity, and how economic decisions ripple through marginalized communities. Dr. Sims and I confront the difficulties of racial tensions within the church, advocating for justice and the courage to remember the true purpose of our vocations.
Dr. Sims and I dissect the historical roots of institutionalized racism in religious movements and contemplate the church's role in fostering genuine reconciliation. By examining how faith shapes societal issues like health and education, we shed light on the need for actionable equality, challenging religious institutions to practice what they preach and to rethink their role in perpetuating discriminatory norms.
We grapple with the obstacles of institutionalism, religious culturalism, and nationalism within the church. We question the conflation of cultural traditions with biblical teachings. This episode serves as a clarion call for compassion in action, urging believers to not only absorb the truth but to live it out by inviting conversations and learning from the full spectrum of history. Join us for a dialogue that promises to challenge and inspire your faith journey.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Grantley (00:06):
I'm Grant Lee Martelly and this is, Above the Noise, a
podcast at the intersection offaith, race and reconciliation.
So welcome back to part two ofmy conversation with Dr.
Andrea Sims and ourconversation about my life, how
(00:28):
I got this podcast started, andI'll turn it back over to Andre.
Andre Sims (00:32):
Yeah.
So, Grantley, definitely,definitely excited to be back,
been looking forward to it allweek and, yeah, I learned so
much about you, god's hand onyour life and your family, his
supernatural intervention to dothings that have benefited the
kingdom through you and thenthrough you, through your mom
(00:57):
and your upbringing, and we kindof begin to throttle down, if
you will, with your call to theministry, which has been over 20
years, and I just want to pickright up kind of where we left
off and I want to ask thequestion how does race affect
the way that you interact atwork?
(01:17):
You currently are at PierceTransit, but you also are on
staff at Hillside InternationalChurch of Nazarene, and so I'm
assuming you can answer thatfrom both directions, if you
will.
Grantley (01:32):
Yeah, I think I can.
I think race affects what we domore than people realize,
because it's built into oursociety especially.
The society was built oncertain principles and how
people see you in the many waysaffects how they react to you,
and so, you know, I have theprivilege of working in both.
(01:54):
I call it a bivocationalsetting and the Old Testament
calls it working in the palaceof the king and working in the
courts of the temple.
Right, I love that.
Both of them, and so when I'mworking in the palace of the
king.
I am typically, it has been myexperience, you know one of few
(02:16):
minorities working in the fieldsthat I've worked in, whether it
be scientific, laboratory workor environmental field,
transportation, which I'm inright now and, like I told you,
when I became the firstexecutive at Utah Transit
Authority, I was the first onethe black one to be there.
So I think it affects the waypeople see you, how people react
(02:38):
to you.
I remember going into meetingswith our CEO and people would
speak to him and nobody wouldspeak to me until he introduced
me, you know.
And then he was such abrilliant man.
He would say this is GrantleyMartelly, he is one of my new
executives and he's yourrepresentative from now on.
(02:59):
Everything that he saysrepresents me and whatever you
have to talk to me about, howyou can talk to him about, and
he would give me credibilitybased on his privilege.
And then people would startspeaking to me, right, wow, even
sometimes in the company, youknow, I remember having
(03:20):
conversations with other peopleand they would say certain
things, not recognizing whatthey were saying, you know, and
I would just have to correctthem or they would make certain
assumptions, but it also affectshow we react.
Right, because people arewatching to see, you would be.
None of us want to be the firstand none of us want to be
considered to be speaking forour entire race, but many times
(03:43):
we end up doing that way, nodoubt, and I have to remember
that I'm building a path forpeople to follow behind me and
before me.
You know, have gone before meand I remember one of my
co-workers, one executive saidto me one day.
He said one thing I like aboutyou is that you've never
(04:05):
forgotten where you came from.
You're always concerned aboutthe poor and about those who
don't have resources when we'remaking decisions, and you've
always been a person ofintegrity.
He said those are the threethings that I always remember
about you and he said Iappreciate the fact that you
(04:26):
speak up for people who don'thave a voice, and I think that's
part of our call right, it's tospeak up for people who don't
have a voice.
You know, everybody talks about, the, the righteous woman who
Proverbs 30's, but before thatthere's a whole section that
says do not withhold from otherswhat you have the privilege to
(04:48):
give.
And it also says to speak upfor those who need justice and
righteousness.
And that's part of our role aspeople of color in many avenues
in the courts of kings to speakup for people who don't have
resources.
I remember once we were havinga discussion about raising fears
(05:11):
and the discussion in the roomwas yeah, we can raise the fears
by another 25% or 25 cents or50 cents, you know, per trip.
And I spoke up and I said youknow, it's easy for us to say
that when you make the kind ofmoney we make.
Yes, sir.
(05:32):
When you realize that 25 cents atrip is $10 as well.
As you know, going back andforth is 50 cents a day, 50
cents a trip.
You make two trips a day.
Right, that's a dollar.
And you multiply that out for aperson who's trying to feed
their family, for a person who'strying to decide if they have
(05:54):
better going to buy food or getthe prescription, that kind of
stuff, for the people who are,who are who are making minimum
wage, an extra $10 a month, anextra $10, $20 a month is a big
deal.
So my stance was we shouldn'traise the fears because these
decisions we may impact otherpeople's lives.
Yes, so I think that's part ofwhere our race and our
(06:18):
upbringing makes a difference.
In the courts of the kings, inthe context of the church, in
the halls of the temple, we havethe same issue.
Many of our churches are claimedto be colorblind and they claim
to be multicultural.
Some of them are monocultural.
People tend to want to ignoreissues of race and how people
(06:42):
are treated.
Many times people of color arenot treated the same.
You know, you hear things oh,that's unique or that's cute.
You know, maybe we can havethem come up and do a special
number and everybody's going tothink it's so great.
Yes, you know.
Why do you think it's so greatand so different?
The only reason why it's sodifferent is because you haven't
(07:04):
had enough times that it hasbecome common to what you do,
which means that your churchdoes not have the representation
of the people and theprinciples and the services are
not structured in a way thateveryone has a role to play.
So when you have other peopletypically people of color
participate, then people thinkit's unique and it's cute.
(07:26):
I believe we have aresponsibility as leaders to
make sure that our churchesrepresent the people who are in
the church and the communitywhere we serve.
Many churches that claim to bemulticultural.
I've found their definition ofmulticultural is people can come
as long as they adapt to whatwe do.
Andre Sims (07:50):
Assimilation, not integration.
Grantley (07:51):
Yeah, so yeah, we have people from all these different
countries and everything, butthis is how we do stuff, and if
they want to participate,they're going to have to learn
to do it the way we do, becausethis is how we do it.
Andre Sims (08:02):
Yeah, that's a very common issue in both places, in
the King's Palace and in thetemple.
In the temple, most folks wantyou to assimilate to whatever
the dominant or largerpopulation is, Correct, and so I
love the fact that, just by howGod's wired you and your
(08:26):
gifting made it known that yourecognize the marginalized, you
advocate for the widow, youadvocate for the orphan, you
advocate for the immigrant, andthat has become your reputation
in both places with integrity.
So this co-worker, while he maynot like what you said,
(08:47):
everybody else knew that youwould be the one to say it.
Yeah, that's basically what hewas saying, he said I can expect
you to speak up.
Yes.
Grantley (08:57):
That's what we have to do.
We have to remember.
That's where you came from.
That's where we came from.
I joke around with people manytimes that we used to walk down
the street looking in thegutters and on the sidewalks for
coins that people drop so wecan raise enough money to pay
our bus fare.
As we were walking home, wewere trying to pick up money off
(09:18):
the street to raise money so wedon't have to walk the whole
rest of the way.
Andre Sims (09:23):
Wow, Wow.
Yeah, it's so interesting thatthat's your life history looking
for coins to catch the bus andnow you're an executive in
transportation, the primaryvehicle of which is a bus.
Grantley (09:41):
Yeah, it is.
Yeah, I'm starting to come fullcircle, right?
I tell people in my other thingthat I do, walking in the
footsteps of the books of myyouth, that I identify with who
I consider to be one of thegreatest philosophers of our
time Robert Nesta Marley, BobMarley.
As he said my feet was my onlycarriage, so I had to walk on
(10:06):
through.
Andre Sims (10:08):
Wow, yeah.
My dad used to have a sayinggrowing up in the ghettos of
Detroit much like yourself,growing up poor and he would say
that a raggedy ride is betterthan a proud walk any day.
Yeah.
So, whether it's part one,whether it's this introductory
(10:32):
portion of part two, everythingyou've communicated is worthy of
a book, like the informationcould easily be published, but
you've chosen to go the podcastroute.
Talk to us about why a podcastversus writing a book.
Grantley (10:50):
So I actually started writing a book.
Andre Sims (10:52):
Okay.
Grantley (10:53):
I got you a few chapters of it.
But writing a book is hard workor is very hard work, and most
of my friends who are writerssay it's very hard work.
But I could never get itfinished or written in the way
to get it published.
So one of my friends said to meone day it says have you heard
about doing a podcast?
What about doing a podcast?
You can do the same thing thatyou can do with a book and you
can get it out there much faster, much easier and you can do it
(11:17):
over and over again.
And I didn't know how to do apodcast.
Now I've been doing sound eversince I was 13 years of age, so
I can do anything with livesound amplifier speakers,
setting up sound, buying soundsystem, configuring sound system
.
You know, I play the guitar, Iplay the drums, play the bass.
Andre Sims (11:35):
I can.
Grantley (11:36):
I can rent, Tons of talent, Tons of talent and I put
on a show for 20, 30,000 peopleand lay out the whole thing,
but I never done a podcast.
So I went home and I went toYouTube university.
I pulled it up and it says howto start a podcast from scratch,
(12:00):
right.
So I started taking this, thisclass, online, and I learned all
the aspects of it, and part ofit is having the right equipment
.
Well, it turns out that, asthey were going through all the
right equipment, because I was asound guy the only thing I
didn't have in my house at thattime or in my office at the
(12:21):
church was a digital audioconverter, which is the device
that takes your microphone andallows you to hook it into your
speaker.
So when you're speaking into amicrophone, it's sort of like
analog.
And this converter yourcomputer needs digital and it
just a little box that you canplug in, and it allowed you to
convert it.
Now we have a Roadcaster prohere, which is a lot more
(12:44):
sophisticated, but I startedwith that and I didn't have one.
So I call up my friend, Darren,from Performance Audio in Salt
Lake City, and whoever he and Ihave been doing sound together
for many, many years and I said,Darren, I'm starting a podcast
and I digital-analog aconverter.
How much does it cost?
He said well, it's interesting,you should call and ask for
(13:05):
that because I have one sittingright here on my desk.
It's been sitting here for ayear.
This guy purchased it and neverpicked it up and I was looking
to get rid of it.
He said I'll just ship it toyour house, you can have it.
Oh my gosh.
So within one phone call, I hadeverything I needed to start my
(13:25):
podcast.
I had the free software torecord it on my Mac computer and
I started learning all theaspects of it and put the plan
together.
So that's how I got intopodcast and realized it's
actually pretty powerful.
It's also another thing thathappened that led to that, which
was interesting.
I was talking to one of myministry mentors years ago,
(13:46):
talking to him about, you know,this call to ministry and this
bi-vocational ministry andworking in the courts of the, in
the kings and the halls of thetemple.
And he said to me you know, Isee your ministry different than
you see it.
Your ministry is not going tobe in one church or attached to
one church.
Your ministry is going to bebigger than that, so you need to
(14:09):
think about it in a largerconcept.
And I didn't know what thatmeant.
But after I started my podcastand I put it out there and after
every episode you upload theygive you analytics.
You know how many, how long wasit up, how long is it people,
how many people downloaded it,how many people listen to it,
where did they listen to it?
(14:30):
And I started sending it out tomy friends and all that stuff.
But I realized that when I gotabout somewhere about the 15th,
20th episode, I look at thestatistics and I saw that there
were people listening in NorthAmerica, south America, africa,
(14:50):
europe.
Andre Sims (14:51):
Wow.
Grantley (14:52):
There's called Oceana, that I didn't even know what it
was.
But Oceana is like Australia,New Zealand, down there, and I
realized that what he told me inthat coffee shop was beginning
to come through, that, withouteven leaving my very home, I was
now beginning to speak topeople all over the world.
Wow, and it's interesting,about three weeks ago I got a
(15:15):
call from another young man whowe used to mentor, who now has
re-dedicated life to the Lordand he is learning to be a
preacher and he's preachingacross the US and now he's
starting churches back in hishomeland in Liberia.
And he said he called me.
And he said the day afterThanksgiving.
He said, Grantley, I've beenthinking and I've been praying
(15:36):
and you and your wife Taminakeeps coming to my mind.
And he says I want to share avision with you that I see you
and your wife talking andpreaching and doing ministry all
over Africa.
Wow, he said the Lord has beenshowing me that, but I didn't
want to call you until I wasconfirmed about it.
But now, when I go and look atmy statistics, I see yes, okay,
(16:03):
a large population from Africa,but it's getting better and
better.
You can't tell how many peoplethat is.
You can just tell how manydownloads or how many listens.
You know it could be one person, it could be a group of people.
Andre Sims (16:17):
Wow, so were you able to share some of that with
him, that you already kind ofsee God doing some of that?
Grantley (16:22):
Yeah, we talked about that.
I shared him some of the stuffthat I was doing and we are
actually my wife and I areactually going with a team of
people to Democratic Republic ofCongo in March and we've got
another friend who's us to us togo with them to Kenya.
Andre Sims (16:39):
Okay, Let it begin, okay.
So you know.
Whether it's the continent ofAfrica, whether it's South
America, north America, thereare always questions about the
existence of God, the power ofGod, the person of God.
So one of the questions thatoften is asked on this topic of
(17:04):
faith, race and reconciliationthat if God is so big and God is
so strong and he's omnipotent,he has all power why hasn't he
brought an end to racism?
I think it's a legitimatequestion.
What would be your answer tothat question if it were posed
to you?
Grantley (17:24):
So it's interesting because I've been thinking about
that for a year and many yearsand that was actually going to
be the topic of my first bookthat I wanted to write If God is
so big, so strong and so mighty.
You know, there's a song thatthe kids sing and by vacation
Bible school we learn in churchthere's nothing my God cannot do
.
And I started making fun andsaying there's nothing my God
(17:46):
cannot do except stop racism.
Right, okay, because that'swhat we see in the church and in
the community, and I believethat the people of faith should
be the leaders of reconciliationin the community, because we
are the only people who have amandate to be reconciled.
Andre Sims (18:08):
Yes, sir.
Grantley (18:09):
Right, and I find it hard to be reconciled in your
spiritual life without alsopursuing reconciliation in your
physical life.
I don't think they can go upseparately.
I agree Because God, the sameGod, also said love your
neighbor as yourself, amen.
So I believe the problem is theas yourself and there's a whole
(18:32):
another topic that I'mdeveloping around the phrase as
yourself, because many timespeople of faith say love your
neighbor and I love my neighbor,but we drop off the as yourself
.
But without the as, when youadd the as yourself, you make it
personal, because then it says,yeah, I need to love my
(18:52):
neighbor, not just say I love myneighbor, but I need to love my
neighbor as myself, which meanswhat is good for me has to be
good for my neighbor.
If it's not good for myneighbor, it can't be good for
me.
If I want my kids to go to thetop schools, then I want my
neighbor's kids to go to the topschools.
If I want to have accessiblemedical care in my community, I
need my neighbor to haveaccessible medical care in your
(19:13):
community.
See, if we don't use that asyourself, then we can live with
it that there's healthdisparities, there's educational
disparities, there's people whodon't have places to live.
All right, if you put asyourself on it, then you can no
longer be satisfied with thestatus quo.
That's the first part of it.
(19:35):
The second part of it.
I believe that many of ourevangelical churches have been
built on a principle ofinstitutionalized racism that
they don't even realize, leftover from the colonial system.
Much of the missionarymovements that took place within
(19:56):
the colonial system, sendingthe gospel around the world, but
much of that was sent with alsoa cultural and a national bent
to it.
Yes, sir, right, we want tostart churches like the Church
of England.
We want to start churches likethe Catholic Church.
We want to start churches likethis or like that.
(20:18):
So we bring people together, weteach them this and then we
send them out into the world.
But those people weren't taughtto love their neighbor as
themselves.
So correct, how can youdemonstrate so?
How can you build somethingthat you're not living in you
and demonstrate it?
And we see the remnants ofracism throughout people of
(20:39):
faith, not just in ChristianityI talk about Christianity a lot
because that's who I am but inother things as well.
We see the difference betweenthe Assemblies of God and the
Southern Baptists, yes, theChurch of God in Christ.
Right, we see that thedenominations that came about
(21:00):
because certain people were notallowed to participate because
of the color of their skin, yes,so, right, from that
foundational element, theChristian movement, the
religious movement.
And even if you talk aboutHindus and Muslims, or different
sex of Judaism or whatever,when you start an organization
(21:23):
based on the fact that we haveto be separate, it means that
becomes your foundation.
And then, for years and fordecades and decades, you're
building this thing built on thefact that we are separate from
them.
Yes, yes, so then it becomesinstitutionalized.
People don't like to talk aboutinstitutionalized racism or
(21:45):
institutionalized religiousbigotry or institutionalized
traditionalism, but allinstitutionalized means is that
you have done it this way solong that it's now become the
norm and people don't realizewhere it started from, or the
sin in it, or the sin in it,right.
(22:05):
So what you think is naturalwasn't natural at some time in
the past.
It's natural to you becausethis is where you are, but if
you don't take the time to goback and to see, how did we get
here?
That's what we call aninstitution.
When an institution is good,people don't realize where it
(22:27):
came from or where it's going.
They're just in the flow.
Andre Sims (22:32):
Yes, which is what makes it good Right, at least in
function.
Grantley (22:37):
In function and you have systems set up to
perpetuate that, and the systemsare not good and bad and of
themselves or whatever, it's theproduct that they're produced.
Yeah, that's good.
So I believe the reason that wesee that continuing in our
communities of faith is not God.
God is more than capable andhis word is clearly playing
(23:00):
where we need to be.
It's us who have not adjustedto his institution.
His institution is the kingdom.
Andre Sims (23:07):
Oh, that's good.
Grantley (23:08):
Our institution is, whatever the nomination we
belong to or whatever race webelong to or whatever society we
belong to, and we put it,juxtapose it, against the king
next to the kingdom of God.
But we don't take it all theway in.
Yes, so we're running inparallel, but if the systems
that we established, we were tosay how does this fit within the
(23:31):
kingdom philosophy and thekingdom theology, then those
institutional things would beexposed because against the
kingdom philosophy.
We would see, oh, that doesn'tmatch what he said.
Andre Sims (23:44):
Yes, and so that becomes.
Then why is the quote unquotebig C church not conforming to
the truth of the scripture?
What is?
Why are we not doing that oncewe've been exposed or made aware
(24:05):
that that is the disposition inwhich we find ourselves,
collectively speaking?
Grantley (24:12):
I think there's a number of reasons for that.
One of them is, once you getaccustomed to a system or an
institution, people feel loyalto it and sometimes questioning
it or asking for change.
People feel as though they'rebeing disloyal.
So that's the first thing.
The second thing is I thinkthat sometimes the leaders of
institutions and leaders oforganizations perpetuate that
(24:37):
misconception that everybodymust believe, everybody must
conform, and if you questionthen you're outside of the gates
and your troublemaker and allthat kind of stuff.
The thing for me is that I wasconsidered a troublemaker ever
since I was 13 years old.
You're not afraid of that titlesince you've carried it for
these years.
Andre Sims (24:57):
It doesn't bother me anymore.
Grantley (24:59):
So I'm not really worried about whether to think
I'm a troublemaker or not.
I'm worried about the result.
What is the result we're goingto get if we make this change
Right?
So that's the second thing.
The third thing is I thinkpeople are also a mistake.
This principle that we practicein our family, at our family
(25:22):
reunions, is we can question, wecan look at and we can expose
the mistakes of the past withoutdishonoring our ancestors.
How many people tie thosetogether?
If you go back, you look at it,you see the mistakes, you see
the things.
If we question that, then wehave dishonoring them.
(25:47):
But I believe if my greatgrandfather was alive, he would
say well, I didn't have any moresmarts than you, I was just
doing what I thought I needed todo, sure, sure.
Why are you so tight up toprotecting what I did?
I just did what I need to doand I want you to do what you
need to do.
Right, that's good.
So until we get people out ofthat mindset that you're being
(26:07):
disloyal to something that thepeople who did it really weren't
even thinking about how loyalyou're going to be three
generations from now, they werejust doing the best thing they
could do within the set they hador whatever they were taught.
Until you get to that point,then we don't have the freedom
to really implement some ofthese things, you know.
(26:28):
And lastly, we have to get ridof leaders who don't like change
.
If you have a leader who don'tlike change, that means that
leader is not leading you in theright direction because change
is a constant in life.
Change is like death, right?
If you're not willing to change, you're going to become
stagnant and you're going to beleft behind.
And we see that in many of ourchurches and religious
(26:49):
organizations, where our societyand community now are saying
you're irrelevant, we don't wantto hear what you've got to say
anymore because you're talkingabout things that are 30, 40, 50
years in the past.
You're saying we've got toprotect this and you've got to
protect that, but you're notlistening to us, so they're
going for other voices.
And then we get frustrated andsay well, our young people
(27:09):
aren't coming to church.
We live in a post-Christiansociety and all of these
terminologies that I believe arejust terminologies by
intellectuals to get us awayfrom the point.
Right, and I don't believe wecan have a post-Christian
society.
I don't believe we can bepost-Christian.
I don't believe any of thatstuff.
(27:31):
Because?
Because what that tells me isthat my God is not able.
He said you must take thegospel to the ends of the earth.
He didn't say you must take thegospel to the ends, not take
the gospel to the ends of earthuntil the psychologists and
sociologists and politicalleaders tell you you're
irrelevant.
Right, there's no escape clause.
(27:54):
So if the society ispost-Christian, it means that we
, as Christian, are not doingour job because he didn't give
us an option B I agree it's.
Andre Sims (28:04):
It's not the great suggestion, it's the great
commission Right?
Grantley (28:08):
So if the society is telling us we're the society is
giving us good information, Ibelieve our modern society is
giving us great information.
You're not doing what yousupposed to do.
You're not relevant to whatwe're talking about.
You're not addressing issuesthat we think needs to be
addressed.
Right.
Your institutions are no longervalid to us.
You got these big,multi-million dollar edifices
(28:28):
there that you lock it up forsix days a week and only open it
up for one day a week whenthere's people out there that
need feeding, when there'speople that need clothing, when
there's people that need food.
We need places for people tomeet, we need places for
after-school programs.
We need all of these things.
Why is your church locked up?
Andre Sims (28:44):
Well, that's good.
Yeah, that would not go overwell at anybody's national
convention, that's for sure so,but but it is the truth.
Let's take a break and comeright back you know you have
(29:21):
people that come up with termsfor the reality of what you're
saying.
That's where critical racetheory came from.
Correct, that's how it wasbirthed, right?
Yes, yeah, the same thing istrue of this idea that we keep
on saying that we're afraid ofchange, when really it's not
changed that most people fearit's loss.
Grantley (29:43):
Right, yeah, the loss that comes with, or the fear of
the loss.
Correct, Because a lot of timesin change there's always a loss
, but again quickly outpaces theloss Absolutely.
And then people get to thepoint where they say, well, how
come we didn't do this before?
Andre Sims (29:59):
Yeah, we've known then what?
I know now I would have donethis, you know, a decade ago,
kind of thing.
Grantley (30:04):
But if we never pursue people, won't get to that point
.
Andre Sims (30:08):
Yes.
And then we have people that wehave to deal with the reality
of our inability to walk in ouridentity in Christ as opposed to
needing other people's approvalor affirmation Correct.
So we're so busy trying to beokay with the other people that
we aren't willing to stand onthe truth because we don't want
(30:31):
to lose their friendship, theirquote, unquote affirmation of us
or acceptance of us.
We don't want to be thetroublemaker.
Grantley (30:39):
You don't be the troublemaker Like Mr.
Andre Sims (30:41):
Martelli has been since he was 13.
Grantley (30:44):
You know I've told people I have never had anybody
in any place that I've worked.
Tell me, ask me to be less of aChristian.
Andre Sims (30:52):
I come to think of it.
Neither have I, but I've neverthought of it that way.
Grantley (30:56):
Yeah, they may not agree with everything you say,
right, but that a lot of timesthat depends on us and how we
come across to them.
But I have never had anybodysay you know, you need to stop
being a Christian at work.
Now I've had people say well,you know, you shouldn't quote
the Bible when you're talking ina public setting and all that
(31:17):
kind of stuff.
Yes, right, and I canunderstand that.
But I point out to them alsothat most of the things that we
have in our society comes fromthe Bible.
Andre Sims (31:28):
Yes, sir.
Grantley (31:29):
So even in the United States I'm not just the United
States, but even most of thepost-colonial countries if you
look at your constitution, theconstitution of those countries
and this country there's a lotof biblical context in there.
You got that right.
So then you say, well, youshouldn't talk about that.
Well, maybe you should go andread the constitution and talk
(31:51):
about it in your country or inyour school, because a lot of
those things in there don'tsteal, don't lie, don't commit
tax fraud.
Yes, Love your neighbor, don'tmurder, don't cover your
neighbor's wife.
Andre Sims (32:07):
Don't cover your neighbor's wife Right.
Grantley (32:11):
All of these things that we hold as valuable to a
civil society trust that we'reback to the Bible, amen.
But because we have failed todo our job as people of faith,
people think you can talk aboutthese things and say well,
you're talking about the BibleAgain.
This is institutionalism at itsbest.
(32:32):
It is so ingrained in thesociety now that people don't
even realize they're quoting theBible when they do, when they
are right.
Andre Sims (32:46):
Yeah, unbeknownst to them.
I would say you have veryclearly identified one of the
larger challenges for the 21stcentury church.
Part of it is, as you stated,not addressing the elephant in
the room.
(33:06):
A part of it is this idea ofnational culturalism, or
national yeah, religiousnationalism and religious
culturalism.
And so what would you say wouldbe a way to either expose those
two things or help usunderstand the damage that those
(33:29):
things are doing to the witnessof the born again believers and
or the cause of Christ?
How do you?
We're coming up to an electionyear, and that tends to bring
out the worst in folks.
Grantley (33:46):
That does some people.
Andre Sims (33:48):
It's right Some are willing to use the platform for
good and education People likeyourself that are creating
podcasts like this and talkinghonestly about these topics
prior to listening to politicalcandidates make whatever promise
they think they need to make inorder to to be elected.
But just give us the the Gmartelli.
(34:12):
Take on religious culturalism,religious nationalism and the
difference between the trueChrist follower and those who
may be, again based on theinstitutionalization of these
terms, not even know thatthey've adapted or adopted this
(34:34):
philosophy into their everydayChristian living.
Grantley (34:37):
Yeah, that's true.
I think that many people haven'teven realized that.
So I think fundamentally and Igive credit to one of my, one of
our friends who just passedaway recently, Jerry Kester, who
said and he said that in aprevious podcast, on this
podcast people can go back andlisten to it with Jerry Kester
(35:00):
that what has happened, what'sgoing on with this religious
nationalism and political issuesand the whole thing around
COVID and all that stuff, is ithas exposed the weakness of our
discipleship in the Christiancommunity.
We haven't taught our peoplewhat the Bible says and
(35:24):
differentiate it from what ourcommunity says, what our society
says in tradition.
Many people don't know thedifference.
I like to read every year, ifyou can Google it, you know the
Gallup does this and sometimesthere's another company in
Europe who does it and they goaround and they ask people
quotes and they're measuring howeducated people are with what
(35:49):
the Bible says and what thesociety says.
So they ask them thesequestions and say was this in
the Bible or was this in themovie or whatever?
Right, and so many times theyfind that people, even people
who go to church, don't evenrecognize the quotations from
the church, from the Bible.
Wow, they mix them up withmovies and all this other thing
(36:11):
Right, and a lot of people getnowadays are getting their
theology from movies and fromthe media because we fail to do
it Right.
We don't have church onWednesdays anymore.
We try not have church onSunday nights.
We apologize into people forcoming and being a part of it.
When I just read recently thatsome of the churches that are
(36:32):
growing the fastest around theworld are the churches where
people they call it high demand.
They come on Sunday morning,they come on Sunday night and
they come on Wednesdays andpeople are flocking to those
places, compared to the ones whoare trying to eliminate
everything.
Because they're learning newstuff, wow, and they're finding
(36:53):
this interesting.
They're learning things thatthey didn't even know.
They learn right.
Andre Sims (36:56):
So it's, two parts to it.
Grantley (36:57):
It's not just coming, , but they come in to learn.
The other thing that I realizeis many of our churches have too
much what I call Sunday schooltheology, right, yes, the
apostle Paul calls it the milkof the word, yes, and we're not
getting into the meat of theword.
Jonah got swallowed by a whale,right, okay.
(37:19):
And the Lord plays the largefish, right.
And there's a differencebetween Jonah got swallowed by a
whale and a large fish, right?
Yes, sir, because one of themis folk theology and the other
one's what the Bible says, right.
And there's a whole bunch ofother things like that which I
just call the Sunday schooltheology that doesn't get people
(37:42):
into real deep discipleship.
What is the word that God says?
How does it say?
What does it mean?
The third and the next thing iswe have many of our teachers
don't even understand thecultural context of the Bible.
Yes, sir, I don't believe youcan accurately interpret the
word without understanding thecultural context, because many
of the things that were saidthere was within a certain
(38:03):
cultural context.
Andre Sims (38:05):
Yes sir.
Grantley (38:05):
So we try to take that context and we bring it into
the 21st century and wecompletely misinterpret it
because we interpret it in a21st century mindset.
Yes, sir, with people who'venever milked a cow, who've never
been out in the pasture with asheep you know all the examples
that you, they don't know thedifference between a wheat from
(38:26):
a tear.
Yes, sir, yes, sir.
So you're trying to interpretsomething.
There was a thing on TV about,you know, taking kids from the
city to the country to visit afarm.
Right?
Yes, because kids were thinking, you know, they don't know
where chicken comes from, theydon't know where beef comes from
, they don't know where all thisstuff.
And when we try to read theword without understanding the
(38:49):
cultural context, it's likethinking that your meat comes
from the supermarket and it'sjust not because people are
stupid, it's just that theyhaven't been educated.
Yes, we haven't taken the timeto educate them.
So those strips that we wereshowing was helping the kids to
become educated as to where whatthey see in their context comes
(39:10):
from and the amount of work ittakes to make it happen.
It takes work to create truedisciples of Christ.
Amen.
Sweat equity, sweat equity, andwe got to put it in and we've
got to build relationships andit's not going to happen on
Google, it's not going to happenon Zoom and all that stuff and
those things help.
(39:30):
But part of it is face to faceand talking and getting into the
word together.
The other part of it is, if youdon't understand those
principles, then when you placeit up against your tradition and
your culture and the thingsthat you've been taught are
important, then you don't knowhow to differentiate it.
(39:53):
Yes, I've been an example that Iuse many times and when I was
in college some people got madat me, right for it.
But Thanksgiving is not aspiritual holiday, correct?
It's not a biblical holiday,right, that's fine.
So some of my friends were likewhat do you mean?
We've always celebratedThanksgiving.
(40:14):
I've just said that church.
And I said, yeah, that's reallygreat, it's a good cultural
celebration and the principlesbehind it are okay.
We've come to find out thatsome of those aren't even true.
That's a whole other discussionfor another day right.
The pilgrims didn't really likethe Indians, but that doesn't
(40:35):
make it biblical Correct, andjust because you got songs about
it and people bringing allthese things doesn't make it
biblical right.
I got into trouble in collegeas well when they were
celebrating Halloween and Iwrote an article in the
newspaper about what's theChristian basis for Halloween at
(40:56):
a Christian college.
The only thing they didn't dowas to throw eggs To me.
It was at me.
Andre Sims (41:05):
But they didn't like that.
You brought that truth out, ohpeople were mad, including
professors.
Grantley (41:12):
They were like I'm not going to.
I'm showing me, wearing theword of God, that this is a
biblical celebration.
Well, we've always celebratedit.
It's cultural.
Our kids go out and get stuff,we dress up.
I said I'm not questioning that, I'm saying what's the biblical
authority behind the celebrate?
In that they couldn't explainit to me Because there is none.
(41:33):
There is none right.
So they went into the culturethat even people who claim to be
true believers weren't able todifferentiate it and they took
offense at it Rather thanlearning.
Yeah, we're doing this becauseit's cultural, but it's not
biblical.
Andre Sims (41:52):
I think it's important to delineate that
you're not stating that it'ssacrilegious or hedonistic to
participate in some form or somefashion.
Your specific question waswhere do you find this
celebration or this event in theword of God, in the word?
(42:15):
That is not the same thing asdo I have liberty or not have
liberty to engage in this.
Grantley (42:21):
In getting it or the cultural event Take your kids
trick or treating them orwhatever, which?
Andre Sims (42:27):
they were lumping it all together and you were
trying to make a not trying.
You had made a clear statementreferencing it not being
biblical, biblical.
Grantley (42:39):
Yes, sir.
So the funny thing is, nextsemester I was walking across
the quad again and a religionprofessor came up to me and he
said you know, I was reallyannoyed when you wrote that
article, but I actually wentback and did some research.
I think I agree with what youhad to say Wow, wow, okay.
(43:00):
Well, that's good.
I glad I stimulated you to goand do your research right,
because that was the purpose ofit.
It was not to offend anybody orwhatever, but even he, as a
religion professor, hadn't donehis research.
Andre Sims (43:15):
Yes, which he exposed by stating you he went
to go do something.
You had to go do some research,right?
Grantley (43:22):
He should have been the one writing the article in
the first place, not me.
Why is that important?
Because unless we are willingto do that kind of critical
thinking and that kind ofin-depth study in the word, then
things like culturalnationalism and religious
politicalism.
Religious politicalism comesabout.
(43:42):
Yes, because people think youneed a politician to defend the
Word of God, which Jesus, by theway, never accepted.
Right, that's one other topicfor another day.
But Jesus never felt he needed apolitician to promote the
kingdom.
He educated politicians aboutthe kingdom, about the kingdom
(44:04):
right.
So we don't need a politicianto carry the flag for the
kingdom of God.
We don't need a politicaltheology or a political party or
a political representation.
It doesn't mean that weshouldn't have political parties
.
I believe we should vote.
I believe we should, but Idon't go to my politician for my
theology.
My theology has to come fromthe word.
Amen.
and it has to come from prayerand from understanding kingdom
(44:27):
principles.
I don't need a politician totell me who to love and who not
to love.
Andre Sims (44:33):
The word of God has already made that clear.
Grantley (44:34):
The word of God has already made that clear.
Does it give me a plan B?
That's where I believe thosethings creep in, because it's a
lot easier to stand up and hearsomebody say stuff when you say,
yeah, I agree with that,because it doesn't take much
thought to say that it may soundgood.
I also did a, by the way.
I did a podcast on this topicearlier episode on it, but
(44:56):
there's also one on abortion,this whole abortion thing with a
Supreme Court, and it amazes mewith how many people who call
themselves believers are goingaround saying that this is
something that we don't have achoice to support.
Well, I'm not sure my wordtells me that.
Andre Sims (45:21):
Well, you are sure it doesn't and you're trying to
understand.
Why don't you also land in thesame place, if you choose, if
you profess?
Grantley (45:30):
If you profess right, yeah, yeah, tell me.
I'm more concerned about lovingthe young woman who finds
herself pregnant, who feels asthough she doesn't have any
options, and how we treat herand how we make her feel like a
human being and how we give hersupport.
Like Jesus said to the lady inadultery, he didn't ask her for
(45:52):
a history, how she gets there,yes, he just looked at her with
compassion.
I am more concerned about thatthan how she got where she is.
Yes, right, yes.
Now, if it was rare for ourincest and stuff, then I'm
concerned about that becausethat's injustice and we got to
fight injustice, right.
So I'm concerned aboutinjustice.
I'm concerned about how wetreat people and I'm concerned
(46:14):
about how we provideopportunities for people and how
we live out our faith to helpthe sinner become Christ-like.
Amen, and we can only help thembecome Christ-like if we are
Christ-like.
I also don't believe that weshould punish children for the
sins of their parents, and manytimes our community punish
children for the sins of theirparents because they come from a
(46:35):
single family, home or thisthing or the next thing.
The child has nothing to dowith that.
They deserve a place, theydeserve safety, they deserve
shelter, they deserve food, theydeserve medical care, they
deserve a good school to go to,because the word that God says
they do, that's my authority.
Andre Sims (46:54):
By what authority are you saying all these things?
Grantley (46:58):
So, and the other principle of this is I'm not the
Holy Spirit police.
God doesn't need my help insaving people's lives, right?
He doesn't need my help inpointing out to him or that one
did this and that one did thatand that one did that.
He already knows that and allhe asked me to be is to be salt
(47:19):
and light so that, as theApostle said, by some means we
can save some.
Yes, sir, but he's the one whodoes the salvation, not me.
Amen, right, my job is to takepeople where they are.
That doesn't mean that wecondone what they do, but we
take them where they are and weshow the love of Christ, we show
(47:39):
compassion, we show grace andwe show mercy, and I believe
that God is able to do what hesays he will do.
Yes, he doesn't need my help toqualify people.
He qualifies that.
He's already qualified them.
If you are born and breathing,he's already qualified you as a
candidate for his grace andmercy.
Andre Sims (48:00):
Amen.
He is not a man that he shouldlie.
Everything he has said willcome to pass as he has stated it
.
That's so, so good.
Well, if you would close us out, we give us some tools.
What are some of the thingsthat someone that's listened to
this podcast, whether it be partone or part two, and they're
(48:23):
saying to themselves I reallyagree with 90 plus percent of
what I heard stated.
I'm going to go back re listen,pause it, stop it, take notes,
do my fiduciary responsibility,do some research.
I'm probably 99 percent inagreement, but I really don't
know what to do next.
(48:43):
Like I don't know how I shouldgo about acting upon the truth
that I heard in this podcast.
Grantley (48:52):
Well, there are a number of things that people can
do.
One of them you can go back andlisten to some of the other
episodes by other people whohave spoken about some of these
things and who have also beeninvolved in many of these things
.
And you know, I even havepodcasts with people who are
Muslims right, who arestruggling in their faith, who
are struggling in how theirfaith is living out their
(49:13):
religious thing in the worldright.
They're struggling with the samethings.
We are just in a different name, right?
So go back and listen to someof those, and they put some good
references in there as well.
Read and learn.
Always be open to read andlearn.
Learn new things.
(49:34):
I tell young people all thetime use your phone and that
computer that's in your hand, oryour electronic device, for
more than playing games andwatching TikTok and Instagram.
Use it to learn.
You have a wealth ofinformation.
You have more information inyour hands than many of your
ancestors had in their entirelife, so use those tools to
(49:58):
learn.
Learn to differentiate.
Don't accept everything youread, but read.
Learn so get knowledge.
Secondly, we don't have to bean expert to act.
None of us are an expert.
We're constantly learning.
So find someone that you couldbegin to learn from, maybe form
a partnership with some personthat's different from you, and
just say hey.
(50:19):
I would like to learn.
Can we learn together?
Can we get together?
There's some questions I have.
Can you help me understand?
And do it with respect, right?
They're not.
They're not.
Don't make somebody yourteacher for the things you need
to go and learn yourself, right.
But in relationships, you canlearn things by being in
relationship with people andnatural conversations take place
(50:40):
because we have built arelationship and earned the
right to share in that person'sjourney the things that they
want to share with us.
The next thing is prayer fordirection and compassion.
Prayer for direction andcompassion that's that old song
that says what the world needsnow is love, sweet love.
Remember that song yeah, sure,but some days I say what the
(51:02):
word needs now is grace andcompassion.
What we need now is more graceand compassion.
Give people space to bethemselves and don't expect
people who haven't been exposedto light to act as people of
light.
Andre Sims (51:21):
Yes, sir.
Grantley (51:22):
You can only produce what's inside of you, and that
applies to believers andunbelievers, and some people
nowadays I see who callthemselves believers.
And I'm looking at what'scoming out.
You know, the Bible says what'sin your heart comes out of your
mouth, and I'm questioning thetwo.
But I got to remind myself I'mnot the Holy Spirit police.
You know.
(51:44):
I got to trust.
God knows how to deal with thatperson and is dealing with that
person in a way that will bringthose two together and
synchronize them in a way thatthey eventually they eventually
be.
What's coming out is what'sbeing lived out.
The next thing is to getinvolved, your hands and feet
get involved with people, getinvolved in community and stand
(52:05):
to stand around the sidelinesand pointing at this person,
pointing at that person.
Get involved, volunteer, help,mentor a child, help somebody
repair their house, moresomebody's lawn.
If you have somebody in yourneighborhood who is hungry,
don't just stand around and say,well, they should go and get a
job.
Share a meal with them, give ussome food.
(52:26):
Yeah, they may need to get ajob, but hey, there are times
when you were unemployed too.
Somebody said you should go andget a job.
The fact that you have a jobnow is merely by the grace of
God.
Andre Sims (52:38):
Yes.
Grantley (52:39):
Most people are 30s or 60 days away from being in that
same predicament.
Yes sir, that's two months.
Andre Sims (52:49):
If that eagle stops flying at that job, that job
comes to an end.
That's exactly where thatperson will be.
Grantley (52:55):
So when we started on the sidelines pointing, remember
that there's when we point one,there's three fingers pointing
back at us.
Andre Sims (53:02):
So good Right.
Grantley (53:04):
How do we help people?
Again, it doesn't mean that yougo around condoning everything.
The Bible says, blown by everywind and doctrine, but it means
you have compassion on peopleand you help them and you love
them and you trust the God thatyou serve is going to work in
their hearts to bring about thechange in them.
Then love your neighborsyourself.
(53:24):
Invite people into your home.
You know there are many thingsthat will, many conversations
that will never happen at yourchurch, but if you bring
somebody to your home for lunchor dinner, you'd be surprised at
things that they'll tell youthat they'll never tell you in
the foyer or your church.
Andre Sims (53:40):
So good, right Get there.
Grantley (53:43):
And then adjust and learn from what you learned,
from what you interact withpeople, from how you be, how God
is showing you how to bedifferent.
Adjust your behavior and learnand then start all over again.
Continuous improvement.
Get back out here, get backreading, Get back praying, get
back involved with your hands.
Adjust again, invite somebodyinto your home for dinner.
(54:05):
Take what you learned, adjust,go back out and do it, and go
back out and do it, and prettysoon it's going to become a
lifestyle.
Andre Sims (54:11):
That is so good, so good.
Yeah, I think that you knowit's one thing to hear truth
right, james 1, 22, but be doersof the word.
Doers of the word and not hearus only lest you deceive
yourself.
I think there's just so manystrong biblical principles that
(54:34):
you educated us with in part oneand part two, and, as you've
stated in some of the podcaststhat you have out there, that
the person that's willing to getinvolved and begin to read and
learn, listen and learn in thisparticular case, that they can
take advantage of.
So it's not like well, gosh,you made a lot of very valid
(54:57):
points, but I don't really knowwhat to do.
There were plenty ofsuggestions that you just gave
of more than one way to getstarted, and that's the thing.
It's a marathon, not a sprint.
Scientification is for life,for the believer, and we should
be seeking help to conform tothe glorious image of Christ in
(55:19):
any way, form or fashion that wecan, based on what we learn.
Grantley (55:23):
Yes, and what we learn ?
That's the key.
Andre Sims (55:25):
You know, we got to get there and we all agree with
everything you had to say, soappreciate your willingness to
give of your understanding oftruth so that we can also walk
in a way that moves us from milkto meat, milk to meat.
Grantley (55:43):
Yeah, we got to become mature in the word, you know.
In closing, there's one thing Iwould like to say is this you
know, we cannot be selectiveabout the history which we
choose to learn.
One of the things that wetalked about is that we've had
selective history.
I totally agree.
There's a thing that sayshistory is written by the people
(56:03):
who have power, and we knowtoday that we've had exposure to
selective history.
So, but we can't be selectiveof that.
So we've got to go and learn andget the complete picture, and
we've got to make seat at thetable for people who may not
have had a voice before.
We've got to listen to thevoice of the immigrant.
We got to listen to the voiceof the people of color.
(56:24):
We've got to listen to thevoice of the Native American.
We've got to listen to thevoice of the refugee.
We've got to listen to thevoice of the child, listen to
the voice of the homeless personwho was homeless, listen to the
voice of the imprisoned, sothat we get a true, full picture
of the stories that's going onaround us.
And if we do that, then we alsoare setting up a guard against
(56:49):
some of these things that wetalked about.
Right, we're getting in lineand going with the flow and
saying, if you're a believer,you should do this or you should
believe that.
No, there's only one thing fora believer If you're a believer,
the only one thing you shoulddo is to follow Christ and
follow the Holy Spirit and dowhat he asked you to do.
Everything else is debatable.
Andre Sims (57:13):
So good.
I had to get my phone out andtype some of that real quick
because I don't know when I'mgoing to get a chance to listen
to the podcast once we get itput out there.
But I wanted to capture thatfor myself in this moment
because I know it to be so true.
It's like the husband, asdefined by his wife, has
(57:34):
selective amnesia.
There's a lot that husbandsremember and then, when called
to task and held accountable,that they conveniently forget.
And the same thing is true ofus.
In our 21st century, uh,capitalistic society and culture
, we tend to uh quote unquote,study selective history as
(57:55):
opposed to all history history.
Yeah, so I love that.
Thank you for giving us aclosing thought to park on
something that we definitelyhave to ponder.
It's not something you canprocess just having heard it.
Uh, it's.
It's going to have to resonatewith us, uh, for a while.
(58:15):
So we really appreciate youending on that particular note.
So we would just say to allplease, please, join us, join,
uh, grant Lee Martelli and thisparticular podcast above the
noise.
Yes, sir, above the noise, faith, race and reconciliation.
I love it.
Grantley (58:36):
I love it, I love it, I love it, I love it, I love it,
I love it.
Thank you.
Remember to subscribe and leaveus a written.
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(58:57):
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Thank you for listening andplease share this episode with a
friend.
I'm Grant Lee Martelly and this is, Above the Noise, a
podcast at the intersection offaith, race and reconciliation.
So welcome back to part two ofmy conversation with Dr.
Andrea Sims and ourconversation about my life, how
(00:28):
I got this podcast started, andI'll turn it back over to Andre.
Andre Sims (00:32):
Yeah.
So, Grantley, definitely,definitely excited to be back,
been looking forward to it allweek and, yeah, I learned so
much about you, god's hand onyour life and your family, his
supernatural intervention to dothings that have benefited the
kingdom through you and thenthrough you, through your mom
(00:57):
and your upbringing, and we kindof begin to throttle down, if
you will, with your call to theministry, which has been over 20
years, and I just want to pickright up kind of where we left
off and I want to ask thequestion how does race affect
the way that you interact atwork?
(01:17):
You currently are at PierceTransit, but you also are on
staff at Hillside InternationalChurch of Nazarene, and so I'm
assuming you can answer thatfrom both directions, if you
will.
Grantley (01:32):
Yeah, I think I can.
I think race affects what we domore than people realize,
because it's built into oursociety especially.
The society was built oncertain principles and how
people see you in the many waysaffects how they react to you,
and so, you know, I have theprivilege of working in both.
(01:54):
I call it a bivocationalsetting and the Old Testament
calls it working in the palaceof the king and working in the
courts of the temple.
Right, I love that.
Both of them, and so when I'mworking in the palace of the
king.
I am typically, it has been myexperience, you know one of few
(02:16):
minorities working in the fieldsthat I've worked in, whether it
be scientific, laboratory workor environmental field,
transportation, which I'm inright now and, like I told you,
when I became the firstexecutive at Utah Transit
Authority, I was the first onethe black one to be there.
So I think it affects the waypeople see you, how people react
(02:38):
to you.
I remember going into meetingswith our CEO and people would
speak to him and nobody wouldspeak to me until he introduced
me, you know.
And then he was such abrilliant man.
He would say this is GrantleyMartelly, he is one of my new
executives and he's yourrepresentative from now on.
(02:59):
Everything that he saysrepresents me and whatever you
have to talk to me about, howyou can talk to him about, and
he would give me credibilitybased on his privilege.
And then people would startspeaking to me, right, wow, even
sometimes in the company, youknow, I remember having
(03:20):
conversations with other peopleand they would say certain
things, not recognizing whatthey were saying, you know, and
I would just have to correctthem or they would make certain
assumptions, but it also affectshow we react.
Right, because people arewatching to see, you would be.
None of us want to be the firstand none of us want to be
considered to be speaking forour entire race, but many times
(03:43):
we end up doing that way, nodoubt, and I have to remember
that I'm building a path forpeople to follow behind me and
before me.
You know, have gone before meand I remember one of my
co-workers, one executive saidto me one day.
He said one thing I like aboutyou is that you've never
(04:05):
forgotten where you came from.
You're always concerned aboutthe poor and about those who
don't have resources when we'remaking decisions, and you've
always been a person ofintegrity.
He said those are the threethings that I always remember
about you and he said Iappreciate the fact that you
(04:26):
speak up for people who don'thave a voice, and I think that's
part of our call right, it's tospeak up for people who don't
have a voice.
You know, everybody talks about, the, the righteous woman who
Proverbs 30's, but before thatthere's a whole section that
says do not withhold from otherswhat you have the privilege to
(04:48):
give.
And it also says to speak upfor those who need justice and
righteousness.
And that's part of our role aspeople of color in many avenues
in the courts of kings to speakup for people who don't have
resources.
I remember once we were havinga discussion about raising fears
(05:11):
and the discussion in the roomwas yeah, we can raise the fears
by another 25% or 25 cents or50 cents, you know, per trip.
And I spoke up and I said youknow, it's easy for us to say
that when you make the kind ofmoney we make.
Yes, sir.
(05:32):
When you realize that 25 cents atrip is $10 as well.
As you know, going back andforth is 50 cents a day, 50
cents a trip.
You make two trips a day.
Right, that's a dollar.
And you multiply that out for aperson who's trying to feed
their family, for a person who'strying to decide if they have
(05:54):
better going to buy food or getthe prescription, that kind of
stuff, for the people who are,who are who are making minimum
wage, an extra $10 a month, anextra $10, $20 a month is a big
deal.
So my stance was we shouldn'traise the fears because these
decisions we may impact otherpeople's lives.
Yes, so I think that's part ofwhere our race and our
(06:18):
upbringing makes a difference.
In the courts of the kings, inthe context of the church, in
the halls of the temple, we havethe same issue.
Many of our churches are claimedto be colorblind and they claim
to be multicultural.
Some of them are monocultural.
People tend to want to ignoreissues of race and how people
(06:42):
are treated.
Many times people of color arenot treated the same.
You know, you hear things oh,that's unique or that's cute.
You know, maybe we can havethem come up and do a special
number and everybody's going tothink it's so great.
Yes, you know.
Why do you think it's so greatand so different?
The only reason why it's sodifferent is because you haven't
(07:04):
had enough times that it hasbecome common to what you do,
which means that your churchdoes not have the representation
of the people and theprinciples and the services are
not structured in a way thateveryone has a role to play.
So when you have other peopletypically people of color
participate, then people thinkit's unique and it's cute.
(07:26):
I believe we have aresponsibility as leaders to
make sure that our churchesrepresent the people who are in
the church and the communitywhere we serve.
Many churches that claim to bemulticultural.
I've found their definition ofmulticultural is people can come
as long as they adapt to whatwe do.
Andre Sims (07:50):
Assimilation, not integration.
Grantley (07:51):
Yeah, so yeah, we have people from all these different
countries and everything, butthis is how we do stuff, and if
they want to participate,they're going to have to learn
to do it the way we do, becausethis is how we do it.
Andre Sims (08:02):
Yeah, that's a very common issue in both places, in
the King's Palace and in thetemple.
In the temple, most folks wantyou to assimilate to whatever
the dominant or largerpopulation is, Correct, and so I
love the fact that, just by howGod's wired you and your
(08:26):
gifting made it known that yourecognize the marginalized, you
advocate for the widow, youadvocate for the orphan, you
advocate for the immigrant, andthat has become your reputation
in both places with integrity.
So this co-worker, while he maynot like what you said,
(08:47):
everybody else knew that youwould be the one to say it.
Yeah, that's basically what hewas saying, he said I can expect
you to speak up.
Yes.
Grantley (08:57):
That's what we have to do.
We have to remember.
That's where you came from.
That's where we came from.
I joke around with people manytimes that we used to walk down
the street looking in thegutters and on the sidewalks for
coins that people drop so wecan raise enough money to pay
our bus fare.
As we were walking home, wewere trying to pick up money off
(09:18):
the street to raise money so wedon't have to walk the whole
rest of the way.
Andre Sims (09:23):
Wow, Wow.
Yeah, it's so interesting thatthat's your life history looking
for coins to catch the bus andnow you're an executive in
transportation, the primaryvehicle of which is a bus.
Grantley (09:41):
Yeah, it is.
Yeah, I'm starting to come fullcircle, right?
I tell people in my other thingthat I do, walking in the
footsteps of the books of myyouth, that I identify with who
I consider to be one of thegreatest philosophers of our
time Robert Nesta Marley, BobMarley.
As he said my feet was my onlycarriage, so I had to walk on
(10:06):
through.
Andre Sims (10:08):
Wow, yeah.
My dad used to have a sayinggrowing up in the ghettos of
Detroit much like yourself,growing up poor and he would say
that a raggedy ride is betterthan a proud walk any day.
Yeah.
So, whether it's part one,whether it's this introductory
(10:32):
portion of part two, everythingyou've communicated is worthy of
a book, like the informationcould easily be published, but
you've chosen to go the podcastroute.
Talk to us about why a podcastversus writing a book.
Grantley (10:50):
So I actually started writing a book.
Andre Sims (10:52):
Okay.
Grantley (10:53):
I got you a few chapters of it.
But writing a book is hard workor is very hard work, and most
of my friends who are writerssay it's very hard work.
But I could never get itfinished or written in the way
to get it published.
So one of my friends said to meone day it says have you heard
about doing a podcast?
What about doing a podcast?
You can do the same thing thatyou can do with a book and you
can get it out there much faster, much easier and you can do it
(11:17):
over and over again.
And I didn't know how to do apodcast.
Now I've been doing sound eversince I was 13 years of age, so
I can do anything with livesound amplifier speakers,
setting up sound, buying soundsystem, configuring sound system
.
You know, I play the guitar, Iplay the drums, play the bass.
Andre Sims (11:35):
I can.
Grantley (11:36):
I can rent, Tons of talent, Tons of talent and I put
on a show for 20, 30,000 peopleand lay out the whole thing,
but I never done a podcast.
So I went home and I went toYouTube university.
I pulled it up and it says howto start a podcast from scratch,
(12:00):
right.
So I started taking this, thisclass, online, and I learned all
the aspects of it, and part ofit is having the right equipment
.
Well, it turns out that, asthey were going through all the
right equipment, because I was asound guy the only thing I
didn't have in my house at thattime or in my office at the
(12:21):
church was a digital audioconverter, which is the device
that takes your microphone andallows you to hook it into your
speaker.
So when you're speaking into amicrophone, it's sort of like
analog.
And this converter yourcomputer needs digital and it
just a little box that you canplug in, and it allowed you to
convert it.
Now we have a Roadcaster prohere, which is a lot more
(12:44):
sophisticated, but I startedwith that and I didn't have one.
So I call up my friend, Darren,from Performance Audio in Salt
Lake City, and whoever he and Ihave been doing sound together
for many, many years and I said,Darren, I'm starting a podcast
and I digital-analog aconverter.
How much does it cost?
He said well, it's interesting,you should call and ask for
(13:05):
that because I have one sittingright here on my desk.
It's been sitting here for ayear.
This guy purchased it and neverpicked it up and I was looking
to get rid of it.
He said I'll just ship it toyour house, you can have it.
Oh my gosh.
So within one phone call, I hadeverything I needed to start my
(13:25):
podcast.
I had the free software torecord it on my Mac computer and
I started learning all theaspects of it and put the plan
together.
So that's how I got intopodcast and realized it's
actually pretty powerful.
It's also another thing thathappened that led to that, which
was interesting.
I was talking to one of myministry mentors years ago,
(13:46):
talking to him about, you know,this call to ministry and this
bi-vocational ministry andworking in the courts of the, in
the kings and the halls of thetemple.
And he said to me you know, Isee your ministry different than
you see it.
Your ministry is not going tobe in one church or attached to
one church.
Your ministry is going to bebigger than that, so you need to
(14:09):
think about it in a largerconcept.
And I didn't know what thatmeant.
But after I started my podcastand I put it out there and after
every episode you upload theygive you analytics.
You know how many, how long wasit up, how long is it people,
how many people downloaded it,how many people listen to it,
where did they listen to it?
(14:30):
And I started sending it out tomy friends and all that stuff.
But I realized that when I gotabout somewhere about the 15th,
20th episode, I look at thestatistics and I saw that there
were people listening in NorthAmerica, south America, africa,
(14:50):
europe.
Andre Sims (14:51):
Wow.
Grantley (14:52):
There's called Oceana, that I didn't even know what it
was.
But Oceana is like Australia,New Zealand, down there, and I
realized that what he told me inthat coffee shop was beginning
to come through, that, withouteven leaving my very home, I was
now beginning to speak topeople all over the world.
Wow, and it's interesting,about three weeks ago I got a
(15:15):
call from another young man whowe used to mentor, who now has
re-dedicated life to the Lordand he is learning to be a
preacher and he's preachingacross the US and now he's
starting churches back in hishomeland in Liberia.
And he said he called me.
And he said the day afterThanksgiving.
He said, Grantley, I've beenthinking and I've been praying
(15:36):
and you and your wife Taminakeeps coming to my mind.
And he says I want to share avision with you that I see you
and your wife talking andpreaching and doing ministry all
over Africa.
Wow, he said the Lord has beenshowing me that, but I didn't
want to call you until I wasconfirmed about it.
But now, when I go and look atmy statistics, I see yes, okay,
(16:03):
a large population from Africa,but it's getting better and
better.
You can't tell how many peoplethat is.
You can just tell how manydownloads or how many listens.
You know it could be one person, it could be a group of people.
Andre Sims (16:17):
Wow, so were you able to share some of that with
him, that you already kind ofsee God doing some of that?
Grantley (16:22):
Yeah, we talked about that.
I shared him some of the stuffthat I was doing and we are
actually my wife and I areactually going with a team of
people to Democratic Republic ofCongo in March and we've got
another friend who's us to us togo with them to Kenya.
Andre Sims (16:39):
Okay, Let it begin, okay.
So you know.
Whether it's the continent ofAfrica, whether it's South
America, north America, thereare always questions about the
existence of God, the power ofGod, the person of God.
So one of the questions thatoften is asked on this topic of
(17:04):
faith, race and reconciliationthat if God is so big and God is
so strong and he's omnipotent,he has all power why hasn't he
brought an end to racism?
I think it's a legitimatequestion.
What would be your answer tothat question if it were posed
to you?
Grantley (17:24):
So it's interesting because I've been thinking about
that for a year and many yearsand that was actually going to
be the topic of my first bookthat I wanted to write If God is
so big, so strong and so mighty.
You know, there's a song thatthe kids sing and by vacation
Bible school we learn in churchthere's nothing my God cannot do
.
And I started making fun andsaying there's nothing my God
(17:46):
cannot do except stop racism.
Right, okay, because that'swhat we see in the church and in
the community, and I believethat the people of faith should
be the leaders of reconciliationin the community, because we
are the only people who have amandate to be reconciled.
Andre Sims (18:08):
Yes, sir.
Grantley (18:09):
Right, and I find it hard to be reconciled in your
spiritual life without alsopursuing reconciliation in your
physical life.
I don't think they can go upseparately.
I agree Because God, the sameGod, also said love your
neighbor as yourself, amen.
So I believe the problem is theas yourself and there's a whole
(18:32):
another topic that I'mdeveloping around the phrase as
yourself, because many timespeople of faith say love your
neighbor and I love my neighbor,but we drop off the as yourself
.
But without the as, when youadd the as yourself, you make it
personal, because then it says,yeah, I need to love my
(18:52):
neighbor, not just say I love myneighbor, but I need to love my
neighbor as myself, which meanswhat is good for me has to be
good for my neighbor.
If it's not good for myneighbor, it can't be good for
me.
If I want my kids to go to thetop schools, then I want my
neighbor's kids to go to the topschools.
If I want to have accessiblemedical care in my community, I
need my neighbor to haveaccessible medical care in your
(19:13):
community.
See, if we don't use that asyourself, then we can live with
it that there's healthdisparities, there's educational
disparities, there's people whodon't have places to live.
All right, if you put asyourself on it, then you can no
longer be satisfied with thestatus quo.
That's the first part of it.
(19:35):
The second part of it.
I believe that many of ourevangelical churches have been
built on a principle ofinstitutionalized racism that
they don't even realize, leftover from the colonial system.
Much of the missionarymovements that took place within
(19:56):
the colonial system, sendingthe gospel around the world, but
much of that was sent with alsoa cultural and a national bent
to it.
Yes, sir, right, we want tostart churches like the Church
of England.
We want to start churches likethe Catholic Church.
We want to start churches likethis or like that.
(20:18):
So we bring people together, weteach them this and then we
send them out into the world.
But those people weren't taughtto love their neighbor as
themselves.
So correct, how can youdemonstrate so?
How can you build somethingthat you're not living in you
and demonstrate it?
And we see the remnants ofracism throughout people of
(20:39):
faith, not just in ChristianityI talk about Christianity a lot
because that's who I am but inother things as well.
We see the difference betweenthe Assemblies of God and the
Southern Baptists, yes, theChurch of God in Christ.
Right, we see that thedenominations that came about
(21:00):
because certain people were notallowed to participate because
of the color of their skin, yes,so, right, from that
foundational element, theChristian movement, the
religious movement.
And even if you talk aboutHindus and Muslims, or different
sex of Judaism or whatever,when you start an organization
(21:23):
based on the fact that we haveto be separate, it means that
becomes your foundation.
And then, for years and fordecades and decades, you're
building this thing built on thefact that we are separate from
them.
Yes, yes, so then it becomesinstitutionalized.
People don't like to talk aboutinstitutionalized racism or
(21:45):
institutionalized religiousbigotry or institutionalized
traditionalism, but allinstitutionalized means is that
you have done it this way solong that it's now become the
norm and people don't realizewhere it started from, or the
sin in it, or the sin in it,right.
(22:05):
So what you think is naturalwasn't natural at some time in
the past.
It's natural to you becausethis is where you are, but if
you don't take the time to goback and to see, how did we get
here?
That's what we call aninstitution.
When an institution is good,people don't realize where it
(22:27):
came from or where it's going.
They're just in the flow.
Andre Sims (22:32):
Yes, which is what makes it good Right, at least in
function.
Grantley (22:37):
In function and you have systems set up to
perpetuate that, and the systemsare not good and bad and of
themselves or whatever, it's theproduct that they're produced.
Yeah, that's good.
So I believe the reason that wesee that continuing in our
communities of faith is not God.
God is more than capable andhis word is clearly playing
(23:00):
where we need to be.
It's us who have not adjustedto his institution.
His institution is the kingdom.
Andre Sims (23:07):
Oh, that's good.
Grantley (23:08):
Our institution is, whatever the nomination we
belong to or whatever race webelong to or whatever society we
belong to, and we put it,juxtapose it, against the king
next to the kingdom of God.
But we don't take it all theway in.
Yes, so we're running inparallel, but if the systems
that we established, we were tosay how does this fit within the
(23:31):
kingdom philosophy and thekingdom theology, then those
institutional things would beexposed because against the
kingdom philosophy.
We would see, oh, that doesn'tmatch what he said.
Andre Sims (23:44):
Yes, and so that becomes.
Then why is the quote unquotebig C church not conforming to
the truth of the scripture?
What is?
Why are we not doing that oncewe've been exposed or made aware
(24:05):
that that is the disposition inwhich we find ourselves,
collectively speaking?
Grantley (24:12):
I think there's a number of reasons for that.
One of them is, once you getaccustomed to a system or an
institution, people feel loyalto it and sometimes questioning
it or asking for change.
People feel as though they'rebeing disloyal.
So that's the first thing.
The second thing is I thinkthat sometimes the leaders of
institutions and leaders oforganizations perpetuate that
(24:37):
misconception that everybodymust believe, everybody must
conform, and if you questionthen you're outside of the gates
and your troublemaker and allthat kind of stuff.
The thing for me is that I wasconsidered a troublemaker ever
since I was 13 years old.
You're not afraid of that titlesince you've carried it for
these years.
Andre Sims (24:57):
It doesn't bother me anymore.
Grantley (24:59):
So I'm not really worried about whether to think
I'm a troublemaker or not.
I'm worried about the result.
What is the result we're goingto get if we make this change
Right?
So that's the second thing.
The third thing is I thinkpeople are also a mistake.
This principle that we practicein our family, at our family
(25:22):
reunions, is we can question, wecan look at and we can expose
the mistakes of the past withoutdishonoring our ancestors.
How many people tie thosetogether?
If you go back, you look at it,you see the mistakes, you see
the things.
If we question that, then wehave dishonoring them.
(25:47):
But I believe if my greatgrandfather was alive, he would
say well, I didn't have any moresmarts than you, I was just
doing what I thought I needed todo, sure, sure.
Why are you so tight up toprotecting what I did?
I just did what I need to doand I want you to do what you
need to do.
Right, that's good.
So until we get people out ofthat mindset that you're being
(26:07):
disloyal to something that thepeople who did it really weren't
even thinking about how loyalyou're going to be three
generations from now, they werejust doing the best thing they
could do within the set they hador whatever they were taught.
Until you get to that point,then we don't have the freedom
to really implement some ofthese things, you know.
(26:28):
And lastly, we have to get ridof leaders who don't like change
.
If you have a leader who don'tlike change, that means that
leader is not leading you in theright direction because change
is a constant in life.
Change is like death, right?
If you're not willing to change, you're going to become
stagnant and you're going to beleft behind.
And we see that in many of ourchurches and religious
(26:49):
organizations, where our societyand community now are saying
you're irrelevant, we don't wantto hear what you've got to say
anymore because you're talkingabout things that are 30, 40, 50
years in the past.
You're saying we've got toprotect this and you've got to
protect that, but you're notlistening to us, so they're
going for other voices.
And then we get frustrated andsay well, our young people
(27:09):
aren't coming to church.
We live in a post-Christiansociety and all of these
terminologies that I believe arejust terminologies by
intellectuals to get us awayfrom the point.
Right, and I don't believe wecan have a post-Christian
society.
I don't believe we can bepost-Christian.
I don't believe any of thatstuff.
(27:31):
Because?
Because what that tells me isthat my God is not able.
He said you must take thegospel to the ends of the earth.
He didn't say you must take thegospel to the ends, not take
the gospel to the ends of earthuntil the psychologists and
sociologists and politicalleaders tell you you're
irrelevant.
Right, there's no escape clause.
(27:54):
So if the society ispost-Christian, it means that we
, as Christian, are not doingour job because he didn't give
us an option B I agree it's.
Andre Sims (28:04):
It's not the great suggestion, it's the great
commission Right?
Grantley (28:08):
So if the society is telling us we're the society is
giving us good information, Ibelieve our modern society is
giving us great information.
You're not doing what yousupposed to do.
You're not relevant to whatwe're talking about.
You're not addressing issuesthat we think needs to be
addressed.
Right.
Your institutions are no longervalid to us.
You got these big,multi-million dollar edifices
(28:28):
there that you lock it up forsix days a week and only open it
up for one day a week whenthere's people out there that
need feeding, when there'speople that need clothing, when
there's people that need food.
We need places for people tomeet, we need places for
after-school programs.
We need all of these things.
Why is your church locked up?
Andre Sims (28:44):
Well, that's good.
Yeah, that would not go overwell at anybody's national
convention, that's for sure so,but but it is the truth.
Let's take a break and comeright back you know you have
(29:21):
people that come up with termsfor the reality of what you're
saying.
That's where critical racetheory came from.
Correct, that's how it wasbirthed, right?
Yes, yeah, the same thing istrue of this idea that we keep
on saying that we're afraid ofchange, when really it's not
changed that most people fearit's loss.
Grantley (29:43):
Right, yeah, the loss that comes with, or the fear of
the loss.
Correct, Because a lot of timesin change there's always a loss
, but again quickly outpaces theloss Absolutely.
And then people get to thepoint where they say, well, how
come we didn't do this before?
Andre Sims (29:59):
Yeah, we've known then what?
I know now I would have donethis, you know, a decade ago,
kind of thing.
Grantley (30:04):
But if we never pursue people, won't get to that point
.
Andre Sims (30:08):
Yes.
And then we have people that wehave to deal with the reality
of our inability to walk in ouridentity in Christ as opposed to
needing other people's approvalor affirmation Correct.
So we're so busy trying to beokay with the other people that
we aren't willing to stand onthe truth because we don't want
(30:31):
to lose their friendship, theirquote, unquote affirmation of us
or acceptance of us.
We don't want to be thetroublemaker.
Grantley (30:39):
You don't be the troublemaker Like Mr.
Andre Sims (30:41):
Martelli has been since he was 13.
Grantley (30:44):
You know I've told people I have never had anybody
in any place that I've worked.
Tell me, ask me to be less of aChristian.
Andre Sims (30:52):
I come to think of it.
Neither have I, but I've neverthought of it that way.
Grantley (30:56):
Yeah, they may not agree with everything you say,
right, but that a lot of timesthat depends on us and how we
come across to them.
But I have never had anybodysay you know, you need to stop
being a Christian at work.
Now I've had people say well,you know, you shouldn't quote
the Bible when you're talking ina public setting and all that
(31:17):
kind of stuff.
Yes, right, and I canunderstand that.
But I point out to them alsothat most of the things that we
have in our society comes fromthe Bible.
Andre Sims (31:28):
Yes, sir.
Grantley (31:29):
So even in the United States I'm not just the United
States, but even most of thepost-colonial countries if you
look at your constitution, theconstitution of those countries
and this country there's a lotof biblical context in there.
You got that right.
So then you say, well, youshouldn't talk about that.
Well, maybe you should go andread the constitution and talk
(31:51):
about it in your country or inyour school, because a lot of
those things in there don'tsteal, don't lie, don't commit
tax fraud.
Yes, Love your neighbor, don'tmurder, don't cover your
neighbor's wife.
Andre Sims (32:07):
Don't cover your neighbor's wife Right.
Grantley (32:11):
All of these things that we hold as valuable to a
civil society trust that we'reback to the Bible, amen.
But because we have failed todo our job as people of faith,
people think you can talk aboutthese things and say well,
you're talking about the BibleAgain.
This is institutionalism at itsbest.
(32:32):
It is so ingrained in thesociety now that people don't
even realize they're quoting theBible when they do, when they
are right.
Andre Sims (32:46):
Yeah, unbeknownst to them.
I would say you have veryclearly identified one of the
larger challenges for the 21stcentury church.
Part of it is, as you stated,not addressing the elephant in
the room.
(33:06):
A part of it is this idea ofnational culturalism, or
national yeah, religiousnationalism and religious
culturalism.
And so what would you say wouldbe a way to either expose those
two things or help usunderstand the damage that those
(33:29):
things are doing to the witnessof the born again believers and
or the cause of Christ?
How do you?
We're coming up to an electionyear, and that tends to bring
out the worst in folks.
Grantley (33:46):
That does some people.
Andre Sims (33:48):
It's right Some are willing to use the platform for
good and education People likeyourself that are creating
podcasts like this and talkinghonestly about these topics
prior to listening to politicalcandidates make whatever promise
they think they need to make inorder to to be elected.
But just give us the the Gmartelli.
(34:12):
Take on religious culturalism,religious nationalism and the
difference between the trueChrist follower and those who
may be, again based on theinstitutionalization of these
terms, not even know thatthey've adapted or adopted this
(34:34):
philosophy into their everydayChristian living.
Grantley (34:37):
Yeah, that's true.
I think that many people haven'teven realized that.
So I think fundamentally and Igive credit to one of my, one of
our friends who just passedaway recently, Jerry Kester, who
said and he said that in aprevious podcast, on this
podcast people can go back andlisten to it with Jerry Kester
(35:00):
that what has happened, what'sgoing on with this religious
nationalism and political issuesand the whole thing around
COVID and all that stuff, is ithas exposed the weakness of our
discipleship in the Christiancommunity.
We haven't taught our peoplewhat the Bible says and
(35:24):
differentiate it from what ourcommunity says, what our society
says in tradition.
Many people don't know thedifference.
I like to read every year, ifyou can Google it, you know the
Gallup does this and sometimesthere's another company in
Europe who does it and they goaround and they ask people
quotes and they're measuring howeducated people are with what
(35:49):
the Bible says and what thesociety says.
So they ask them thesequestions and say was this in
the Bible or was this in themovie or whatever?
Right, and so many times theyfind that people, even people
who go to church, don't evenrecognize the quotations from
the church, from the Bible.
Wow, they mix them up withmovies and all this other thing
(36:11):
Right, and a lot of people getnowadays are getting their
theology from movies and fromthe media because we fail to do
it Right.
We don't have church onWednesdays anymore.
We try not have church onSunday nights.
We apologize into people forcoming and being a part of it.
When I just read recently thatsome of the churches that are
(36:32):
growing the fastest around theworld are the churches where
people they call it high demand.
They come on Sunday morning,they come on Sunday night and
they come on Wednesdays andpeople are flocking to those
places, compared to the ones whoare trying to eliminate
everything.
Because they're learning newstuff, wow, and they're finding
(36:53):
this interesting.
They're learning things thatthey didn't even know.
They learn right.
Andre Sims (36:56):
So it's, two parts to it.
Grantley (36:57):
It's not just coming, , but they come in to learn.
The other thing that I realizeis many of our churches have too
much what I call Sunday schooltheology, right, yes, the
apostle Paul calls it the milkof the word, yes, and we're not
getting into the meat of theword.
Jonah got swallowed by a whale,right, okay.
(37:19):
And the Lord plays the largefish, right.
And there's a differencebetween Jonah got swallowed by a
whale and a large fish, right?
Yes, sir, because one of themis folk theology and the other
one's what the Bible says, right.
And there's a whole bunch ofother things like that which I
just call the Sunday schooltheology that doesn't get people
(37:42):
into real deep discipleship.
What is the word that God says?
How does it say?
What does it mean?
The third and the next thing iswe have many of our teachers
don't even understand thecultural context of the Bible.
Yes, sir, I don't believe youcan accurately interpret the
word without understanding thecultural context, because many
of the things that were saidthere was within a certain
(38:03):
cultural context.
Andre Sims (38:05):
Yes sir.
Grantley (38:05):
So we try to take that context and we bring it into
the 21st century and wecompletely misinterpret it
because we interpret it in a21st century mindset.
Yes, sir, with people who'venever milked a cow, who've never
been out in the pasture with asheep you know all the examples
that you, they don't know thedifference between a wheat from
(38:26):
a tear.
Yes, sir, yes, sir.
So you're trying to interpretsomething.
There was a thing on TV about,you know, taking kids from the
city to the country to visit afarm.
Right?
Yes, because kids were thinking, you know, they don't know
where chicken comes from, theydon't know where beef comes from
, they don't know where all thisstuff.
And when we try to read theword without understanding the
(38:49):
cultural context, it's likethinking that your meat comes
from the supermarket and it'sjust not because people are
stupid, it's just that theyhaven't been educated.
Yes, we haven't taken the timeto educate them.
So those strips that we wereshowing was helping the kids to
become educated as to where whatthey see in their context comes
(39:10):
from and the amount of work ittakes to make it happen.
It takes work to create truedisciples of Christ.
Amen.
Sweat equity, sweat equity, andwe got to put it in and we've
got to build relationships andit's not going to happen on
Google, it's not going to happenon Zoom and all that stuff and
those things help.
(39:30):
But part of it is face to faceand talking and getting into the
word together.
The other part of it is, if youdon't understand those
principles, then when you placeit up against your tradition and
your culture and the thingsthat you've been taught are
important, then you don't knowhow to differentiate it.
(39:53):
Yes, I've been an example that Iuse many times and when I was
in college some people got madat me, right for it.
But Thanksgiving is not aspiritual holiday, correct?
It's not a biblical holiday,right, that's fine.
So some of my friends were likewhat do you mean?
We've always celebratedThanksgiving.
(40:14):
I've just said that church.
And I said, yeah, that's reallygreat, it's a good cultural
celebration and the principlesbehind it are okay.
We've come to find out thatsome of those aren't even true.
That's a whole other discussionfor another day right.
The pilgrims didn't really likethe Indians, but that doesn't
(40:35):
make it biblical Correct, andjust because you got songs about
it and people bringing allthese things doesn't make it
biblical right.
I got into trouble in collegeas well when they were
celebrating Halloween and Iwrote an article in the
newspaper about what's theChristian basis for Halloween at
(40:56):
a Christian college.
The only thing they didn't dowas to throw eggs To me.
It was at me.
Andre Sims (41:05):
But they didn't like that.
You brought that truth out, ohpeople were mad, including
professors.
Grantley (41:12):
They were like I'm not going to.
I'm showing me, wearing theword of God, that this is a
biblical celebration.
Well, we've always celebratedit.
It's cultural.
Our kids go out and get stuff,we dress up.
I said I'm not questioning that, I'm saying what's the biblical
authority behind the celebrate?
In that they couldn't explainit to me Because there is none.
(41:33):
There is none right.
So they went into the culturethat even people who claim to be
true believers weren't able todifferentiate it and they took
offense at it Rather thanlearning.
Yeah, we're doing this becauseit's cultural, but it's not
biblical.
Andre Sims (41:52):
I think it's important to delineate that
you're not stating that it'ssacrilegious or hedonistic to
participate in some form or somefashion.
Your specific question waswhere do you find this
celebration or this event in theword of God, in the word?
(42:15):
That is not the same thing asdo I have liberty or not have
liberty to engage in this.
Grantley (42:21):
In getting it or the cultural event Take your kids
trick or treating them orwhatever, which?
Andre Sims (42:27):
they were lumping it all together and you were
trying to make a not trying.
You had made a clear statementreferencing it not being
biblical, biblical.
Grantley (42:39):
Yes, sir.
So the funny thing is, nextsemester I was walking across
the quad again and a religionprofessor came up to me and he
said you know, I was reallyannoyed when you wrote that
article, but I actually wentback and did some research.
I think I agree with what youhad to say Wow, wow, okay.
(43:00):
Well, that's good.
I glad I stimulated you to goand do your research right,
because that was the purpose ofit.
It was not to offend anybody orwhatever, but even he, as a
religion professor, hadn't donehis research.
Andre Sims (43:15):
Yes, which he exposed by stating you he went
to go do something.
You had to go do some research,right?
Grantley (43:22):
He should have been the one writing the article in
the first place, not me.
Why is that important?
Because unless we are willingto do that kind of critical
thinking and that kind ofin-depth study in the word, then
things like culturalnationalism and religious
politicalism.
Religious politicalism comesabout.
(43:42):
Yes, because people think youneed a politician to defend the
Word of God, which Jesus, by theway, never accepted.
Right, that's one other topicfor another day.
But Jesus never felt he needed apolitician to promote the
kingdom.
He educated politicians aboutthe kingdom, about the kingdom
(44:04):
right.
So we don't need a politicianto carry the flag for the
kingdom of God.
We don't need a politicaltheology or a political party or
a political representation.
It doesn't mean that weshouldn't have political parties
.
I believe we should vote.
I believe we should, but Idon't go to my politician for my
theology.
My theology has to come fromthe word.
Amen.
and it has to come from prayerand from understanding kingdom
(44:27):
principles.
I don't need a politician totell me who to love and who not
to love.
Andre Sims (44:33):
The word of God has already made that clear.
Grantley (44:34):
The word of God has already made that clear.
Does it give me a plan B?
That's where I believe thosethings creep in, because it's a
lot easier to stand up and hearsomebody say stuff when you say,
yeah, I agree with that,because it doesn't take much
thought to say that it may soundgood.
I also did a, by the way.
I did a podcast on this topicearlier episode on it, but
(44:56):
there's also one on abortion,this whole abortion thing with a
Supreme Court, and it amazes mewith how many people who call
themselves believers are goingaround saying that this is
something that we don't have achoice to support.
Well, I'm not sure my wordtells me that.
Andre Sims (45:21):
Well, you are sure it doesn't and you're trying to
understand.
Why don't you also land in thesame place, if you choose, if
you profess?
Grantley (45:30):
If you profess right, yeah, yeah, tell me.
I'm more concerned about lovingthe young woman who finds
herself pregnant, who feels asthough she doesn't have any
options, and how we treat herand how we make her feel like a
human being and how we give hersupport.
Like Jesus said to the lady inadultery, he didn't ask her for
(45:52):
a history, how she gets there,yes, he just looked at her with
compassion.
I am more concerned about thatthan how she got where she is.
Yes, right, yes.
Now, if it was rare for ourincest and stuff, then I'm
concerned about that becausethat's injustice and we got to
fight injustice, right.
So I'm concerned aboutinjustice.
I'm concerned about how wetreat people and I'm concerned
(46:14):
about how we provideopportunities for people and how
we live out our faith to helpthe sinner become Christ-like.
Amen, and we can only help thembecome Christ-like if we are
Christ-like.
I also don't believe that weshould punish children for the
sins of their parents, and manytimes our community punish
children for the sins of theirparents because they come from a
(46:35):
single family, home or thisthing or the next thing.
The child has nothing to dowith that.
They deserve a place, theydeserve safety, they deserve
shelter, they deserve food, theydeserve medical care, they
deserve a good school to go to,because the word that God says
they do, that's my authority.
Andre Sims (46:54):
By what authority are you saying all these things?
Grantley (46:58):
So, and the other principle of this is I'm not the
Holy Spirit police.
God doesn't need my help insaving people's lives, right?
He doesn't need my help inpointing out to him or that one
did this and that one did thatand that one did that.
He already knows that and allhe asked me to be is to be salt
(47:19):
and light so that, as theApostle said, by some means we
can save some.
Yes, sir, but he's the one whodoes the salvation, not me.
Amen, right, my job is to takepeople where they are.
That doesn't mean that wecondone what they do, but we
take them where they are and weshow the love of Christ, we show
(47:39):
compassion, we show grace andwe show mercy, and I believe
that God is able to do what hesays he will do.
Yes, he doesn't need my help toqualify people.
He qualifies that.
He's already qualified them.
If you are born and breathing,he's already qualified you as a
candidate for his grace andmercy.
Andre Sims (48:00):
Amen.
He is not a man that he shouldlie.
Everything he has said willcome to pass as he has stated it
.
That's so, so good.
Well, if you would close us out, we give us some tools.
What are some of the thingsthat someone that's listened to
this podcast, whether it be partone or part two, and they're
(48:23):
saying to themselves I reallyagree with 90 plus percent of
what I heard stated.
I'm going to go back re listen,pause it, stop it, take notes,
do my fiduciary responsibility,do some research.
I'm probably 99 percent inagreement, but I really don't
know what to do next.
(48:43):
Like I don't know how I shouldgo about acting upon the truth
that I heard in this podcast.
Grantley (48:52):
Well, there are a number of things that people can
do.
One of them you can go back andlisten to some of the other
episodes by other people whohave spoken about some of these
things and who have also beeninvolved in many of these things
.
And you know, I even havepodcasts with people who are
Muslims right, who arestruggling in their faith, who
are struggling in how theirfaith is living out their
(49:13):
religious thing in the worldright.
They're struggling with the samethings.
We are just in a different name, right?
So go back and listen to someof those, and they put some good
references in there as well.
Read and learn.
Always be open to read andlearn.
Learn new things.
(49:34):
I tell young people all thetime use your phone and that
computer that's in your hand, oryour electronic device, for
more than playing games andwatching TikTok and Instagram.
Use it to learn.
You have a wealth ofinformation.
You have more information inyour hands than many of your
ancestors had in their entirelife, so use those tools to
(49:58):
learn.
Learn to differentiate.
Don't accept everything youread, but read.
Learn so get knowledge.
Secondly, we don't have to bean expert to act.
None of us are an expert.
We're constantly learning.
So find someone that you couldbegin to learn from, maybe form
a partnership with some personthat's different from you, and
just say hey.
(50:19):
I would like to learn.
Can we learn together?
Can we get together?
There's some questions I have.
Can you help me understand?
And do it with respect, right?
They're not.
They're not.
Don't make somebody yourteacher for the things you need
to go and learn yourself, right.
But in relationships, you canlearn things by being in
relationship with people andnatural conversations take place
(50:40):
because we have built arelationship and earned the
right to share in that person'sjourney the things that they
want to share with us.
The next thing is prayer fordirection and compassion.
Prayer for direction andcompassion that's that old song
that says what the world needsnow is love, sweet love.
Remember that song yeah, sure,but some days I say what the
(51:02):
word needs now is grace andcompassion.
What we need now is more graceand compassion.
Give people space to bethemselves and don't expect
people who haven't been exposedto light to act as people of
light.
Andre Sims (51:21):
Yes, sir.
Grantley (51:22):
You can only produce what's inside of you, and that
applies to believers andunbelievers, and some people
nowadays I see who callthemselves believers.
And I'm looking at what'scoming out.
You know, the Bible says what'sin your heart comes out of your
mouth, and I'm questioning thetwo.
But I got to remind myself I'mnot the Holy Spirit police.
You know.
(51:44):
I got to trust.
God knows how to deal with thatperson and is dealing with that
person in a way that will bringthose two together and
synchronize them in a way thatthey eventually they eventually
be.
What's coming out is what'sbeing lived out.
The next thing is to getinvolved, your hands and feet
get involved with people, getinvolved in community and stand
(52:05):
to stand around the sidelinesand pointing at this person,
pointing at that person.
Get involved, volunteer, help,mentor a child, help somebody
repair their house, moresomebody's lawn.
If you have somebody in yourneighborhood who is hungry,
don't just stand around and say,well, they should go and get a
job.
Share a meal with them, give ussome food.
(52:26):
Yeah, they may need to get ajob, but hey, there are times
when you were unemployed too.
Somebody said you should go andget a job.
The fact that you have a jobnow is merely by the grace of
God.
Andre Sims (52:38):
Yes.
Grantley (52:39):
Most people are 30s or 60 days away from being in that
same predicament.
Yes sir, that's two months.
Andre Sims (52:49):
If that eagle stops flying at that job, that job
comes to an end.
That's exactly where thatperson will be.
Grantley (52:55):
So when we started on the sidelines pointing, remember
that there's when we point one,there's three fingers pointing
back at us.
Andre Sims (53:02):
So good Right.
Grantley (53:04):
How do we help people?
Again, it doesn't mean that yougo around condoning everything.
The Bible says, blown by everywind and doctrine, but it means
you have compassion on peopleand you help them and you love
them and you trust the God thatyou serve is going to work in
their hearts to bring about thechange in them.
Then love your neighborsyourself.
(53:24):
Invite people into your home.
You know there are many thingsthat will, many conversations
that will never happen at yourchurch, but if you bring
somebody to your home for lunchor dinner, you'd be surprised at
things that they'll tell youthat they'll never tell you in
the foyer or your church.
Andre Sims (53:40):
So good, right Get there.
Grantley (53:43):
And then adjust and learn from what you learned,
from what you interact withpeople, from how you be, how God
is showing you how to bedifferent.
Adjust your behavior and learnand then start all over again.
Continuous improvement.
Get back out here, get backreading, Get back praying, get
back involved with your hands.
Adjust again, invite somebodyinto your home for dinner.
(54:05):
Take what you learned, adjust,go back out and do it, and go
back out and do it, and prettysoon it's going to become a
lifestyle.
Andre Sims (54:11):
That is so good, so good.
Yeah, I think that you knowit's one thing to hear truth
right, james 1, 22, but be doersof the word.
Doers of the word and not hearus only lest you deceive
yourself.
I think there's just so manystrong biblical principles that
(54:34):
you educated us with in part oneand part two, and, as you've
stated in some of the podcaststhat you have out there, that
the person that's willing to getinvolved and begin to read and
learn, listen and learn in thisparticular case, that they can
take advantage of.
So it's not like well, gosh,you made a lot of very valid
(54:57):
points, but I don't really knowwhat to do.
There were plenty ofsuggestions that you just gave
of more than one way to getstarted, and that's the thing.
It's a marathon, not a sprint.
Scientification is for life,for the believer, and we should
be seeking help to conform tothe glorious image of Christ in
(55:19):
any way, form or fashion that wecan, based on what we learn.
Grantley (55:23):
Yes, and what we learn ?
That's the key.
Andre Sims (55:25):
You know, we got to get there and we all agree with
everything you had to say, soappreciate your willingness to
give of your understanding oftruth so that we can also walk
in a way that moves us from milkto meat, milk to meat.
Grantley (55:43):
Yeah, we got to become mature in the word, you know.
In closing, there's one thing Iwould like to say is this you
know, we cannot be selectiveabout the history which we
choose to learn.
One of the things that wetalked about is that we've had
selective history.
I totally agree.
There's a thing that sayshistory is written by the people
(56:03):
who have power, and we knowtoday that we've had exposure to
selective history.
So, but we can't be selectiveof that.
So we've got to go and learn andget the complete picture, and
we've got to make seat at thetable for people who may not
have had a voice before.
We've got to listen to thevoice of the immigrant.
We got to listen to the voiceof the people of color.
(56:24):
We've got to listen to thevoice of the Native American.
We've got to listen to thevoice of the refugee.
We've got to listen to thevoice of the child, listen to
the voice of the homeless personwho was homeless, listen to the
voice of the imprisoned, sothat we get a true, full picture
of the stories that's going onaround us.
And if we do that, then we alsoare setting up a guard against
(56:49):
some of these things that wetalked about.
Right, we're getting in lineand going with the flow and
saying, if you're a believer,you should do this or you should
believe that.
No, there's only one thing fora believer If you're a believer,
the only one thing you shoulddo is to follow Christ and
follow the Holy Spirit and dowhat he asked you to do.
Everything else is debatable.
Andre Sims (57:13):
So good.
I had to get my phone out andtype some of that real quick
because I don't know when I'mgoing to get a chance to listen
to the podcast once we get itput out there.
But I wanted to capture thatfor myself in this moment
because I know it to be so true.
It's like the husband, asdefined by his wife, has
(57:34):
selective amnesia.
There's a lot that husbandsremember and then, when called
to task and held accountable,that they conveniently forget.
And the same thing is true ofus.
In our 21st century, uh,capitalistic society and culture
, we tend to uh quote unquote,study selective history as
(57:55):
opposed to all history history.
Yeah, so I love that.
Thank you for giving us aclosing thought to park on
something that we definitelyhave to ponder.
It's not something you canprocess just having heard it.
Uh, it's.
It's going to have to resonatewith us, uh, for a while.
(58:15):
So we really appreciate youending on that particular note.
So we would just say to allplease, please, join us, join,
uh, grant Lee Martelli and thisparticular podcast above the
noise.
Yes, sir, above the noise, faith, race and reconciliation.
I love it.
Grantley (58:36):
I love it, I love it, I love it, I love it, I love it,
I love it.
Thank you.
Remember to subscribe and leaveus a written.
Written is very important tohelp in our podcasts, succeed in
the podcast universe andhelping it become known to other
people.
Email us your comments at abovethe noise 24 at gmailcom.
(58:57):
Above the noise 24 at gmailcom.
And follow us on Instagram andFacebook at above the noise 24.
Thank you for listening andplease share this episode with a
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