62. David Holsten, MAF: What You Can Do With An Airplane

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Join us for an illuminating conversation with David Holston, CEO of Mission Aviation Fellowship (MAF), as he shares his inspiring journey from a Colorado farm with dreams of piloting to leading a global mission organization. David’s story takes us through his experiences in Savannah, Georgia, and his dedication to serving others which ultimately led him to Moody Bible Institute and then to Indonesia. With over 17 years of experience in the field, David offers a unique perspective on MAF's mission to deliver aid and hope to the world's most isolated regions, showcasing how aviation serves as a lifeline in challenging times.

Discover the critical role MAF played during the COVID-19 pandemic, as David recounts the logistical hurdles of transporting vital supplies like test kits and vaccines to remote communities. The discussion extends to MAF's alignment with the teachings of Jesus, focusing on both spiritual and physical support. We also explore the transformative power of empowering local leaders within MAF, highlighting inspiring stories of individuals who have become key figures in their communities, embodying the shift towards a more diverse and inclusive mission aviation landscape.

In this episode, we also shine a light on the evolving dynamics of global missions, emphasizing the rising influence of countries like Brazil and Nigeria. Through programs like International Pathways, MAF is fostering a more inclusive missionary model, breaking down traditional barriers. From providing exceptional medical care in unexpected locations to overcoming technological challenges in isolated areas, David invites listeners to reflect on their potential contributions to a mission-driven life, making a global impact one flight at a time. With stories of resilience and innovation, this episode promises to inspire those passionate about aviation, medicine, and cross-cultural service.

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Episode Transcript

Grantley (00:07):
welcome back to above the noise, and today my guest is
david holston.
He is the ceo of missionaviation fellowship, an
organization which I've becomeassociated with I've known for a
number of years but servingwith in a board capacity and
they do phenomenal work aroundthe world and I am so excited to

(00:29):
have David here to share hisstory and share the work that he
and Mission Aviation Fellowshipis doing around the world.
So welcome, david, to Above theNoise.

David Holsten (00:41):
Hey, thanks, Grant Lee.
I've been looking forward tojoining you for the conversation
.
Thanks for having me.

Grantley (00:47):
Well, thank you for joining us.
Let's begin by just telling usabout yourself.
Introduce yourself to theaudience, who you are, what you
do, a little bit about yourupbringing, your family.
Are you married, do you havechildren?
That kind of stuff.
Let them get to know you.

David Holsten (01:02):
Yeah, great.
Well, as you mentioned, I havethe privilege of serving as the
CEO of a.
Christian mission organizationor faith-based ministry that's
based out of just outside ofBoise, idaho, where our
headquarters is located.
That's where I am right now,and Mission Aviation Fellowship
has been around for almost 80years and we are a very unique

(01:26):
ministry in that we use aircraftto reach some of the hardest to
reach places around the worldand our vision is to see
isolated people changed by thelove of Christ, and we do that
through our mission of servingtogether to bring help, hope and
healing through aviation.
My journey to be a part of MAFsreally goes all the way back to

(01:49):
my childhood.
I grew up on a farm innortheastern Colorado and from
my earliest memories I wanted tobe a pilot.
I can't even remember when thatdream began, but I would ride
my bicycle around and laterwould drive a tractor for my dad
, and I was always imaginingthat I was actually flying an
airplane.
That was sort of just my dreamgrowing up.

(02:11):
Then, when I was in eighth grade, my family moved to Savannah,
georgia, which was a completelydifferent part of the US.
Both geographically, culturally, the racial makeup of people,
it was all quite different.
And so I went there at thestart of my high school and
found myself in an urban settingand was starting to get more

(02:36):
involved in my church and myyouth group, and so by the time
I was getting ready to graduatefrom high school, I had this
growing desire to still wantedto be involved in aviation, but
I also had this desire to gointo some sort of work where I
could serve the Lord.
And it turns out that you cando that in Mission Aviation
Fellowship.
You can bring together thesetwo elements of ministry and

(03:00):
aviation.
So I went off to Moody BibleInstitute, went to a five-year
program that trained me tobecome a missionary pilot and
mechanic, and along the way Iwas married to my wife, natalie,
and we joined after graduating.
I served for a couple of yearsas a flight instructor in that
program and then we joined amission aviation fellowship

(03:22):
almost 25 years ago it wasactually 2000.
So in our 24th year with theorganization, we were assigned
to go to the country ofIndonesia and honestly, at that
time we were okay, where'sIndonesia?
We hardly knew where it was.
This is the internet is justkind of starting to come around,
as before Wikipedia, youcouldn't just Google something

(03:44):
and find out where it was.

Grantley (03:46):
Yeah, encyclopedia Britannica, look at that.

David Holsten (03:49):
That's right.
Art of World Atlas.
Exactly so that started ajourney of learning about this
place that we were going toserve.
We went to Indonesia in 2001.
At the time, we had our twoyoungest children.
We had a three-year-old andabout an 18-month-old who went
with us, and we arrived inIndonesia, which is the world's

(04:13):
largest Muslim country, aboutthree days before 9-11 took
place.

Grantley (04:17):
Wow.

David Holsten (04:19):
And so, if any of your listeners were around
during that time, I can rememberjust all of the unsettledness
and questions that surroundedeverybody at that point.
Were we getting ready to gointo World War III?
It actually reminds me a littlebit of kind of some of the
feelings I think a lot of peopleare experiencing right now with
some of the disruption that'sgoing on in the Middle East, and

(04:41):
so we were just.
It was a unique time to kind ofstart learning about a new
culture and this place ofministry.
We got through that, by God'sgrace, and then ended up serving
for 17 years in Indonesia.
We had two more kids along theway, so we have four children
now.
They're all young adults and,as of last week, we're empty
nesters.
Our youngest one just went offto college and then about six

(05:03):
years ago, we came back to theUS and just through a number of
different events, I now findmyself serving in this role here
at.
Maf Serves in about a dozencountries around the world,
using airplanes, like I said, toreach these really remote
places.
We have about 600 employees whoare serving globally and it's a

(05:24):
really fascinating type of workto be a part of and I'm just,
I'm very grateful to be a partof it.

Grantley (05:31):
Yes, it's a very interesting organization and the
work that you do in thoseplaces that most people like you
said, many people haven't heardabout and the countries that
they haven't heard about, andthen the places you go, most
people will never see.
But you have a unique industry,a unique mission field and a

(05:52):
unique tool and a uniqueindustry right.
The mission aviation industryis its own industry, a subset of
the larger aviation industry.
So it's all like three or fourthings all melded together to
reach a specifically targetaudience.

David Holsten (06:11):
Yeah, that's right.

Grantley (06:12):
You're not flying into London or Belfast.

David Holsten (06:16):
No, the places we fly to you know first of all,
we have airplanes that are sortof specially designed or chosen,
I should say, to fly into thesort of places that we go to.
So we need airplanes that canfly in and out of what we would
call unimproved airstrips,places that are not asphalt or
cement runways but they're dirtand grass and they get muddy.

(06:39):
If there's been a lot of rainthey're carved into the sides of
mountains or down in a littlevalley beside a river.
So very unique sort of placesto fly into because there's no
other way to get into theselocations.
Our pilots have to be trainedto do that type of flying.
If you were to take the averageairline pilot and put them into

(07:01):
one of our airplanes to go intoone of these small airstrips,
it would really be challenginguntil they'd had this unique
training and experience that youneed to do that.
So, yeah, it's a very, a veryspecialized form of aviation and
I like to tell people I meanI'm biased, but I think that
it's the, I think it's one ofthe most special things that you

(07:21):
can do with an airplane.

Grantley (07:22):
Cutting edge.
So what are some of the thingsthat Mission Aviation Fellowship
does in these places?
Obviously, you're flattenedinto unique places.
Some of them may be the firsttime people have seen an
airplane, and definitely thefirst time many of them have got
close to an airplane, even ifthey've seen it in the sky.
So what are some of the thingsthat Mission Aviation Fellowship

(07:43):
does that are also unique?

David Holsten (07:46):
So I think, really, one of the things that
is particularly unique about usis we were purpose built from
the beginning to really servethe transportation needs of
multiple other organizations,and so our kind of the role that
we play is a role of supportingothers, of helping them to be

(08:07):
successful in the work that theyare doing.
So that means that we'reworking with ministries, whether
they are it could be anorganization that is maybe
relatively well-known around theworld, like someone like a
World Vision, or workingalongside the Red Cross or the
World Health Organization,doctors Without Borders, groups

(08:29):
like that that are maybeinternationally known NGOs to
mission organizations likeWycliffe, bible Translators or
Ethnos 360 or Compassion workingwith groups like that all the
way down to local ministriesthat exist only in that
particular country, for instance.
So maybe we're working with thelocal church that exists in the

(08:53):
Democratic Republic of Congo,or in Indonesia or in Mozambique
, or we're working with theDepartment of Health in the
country of Lesotho, or agovernment institution in a
place like Haiti, and so one ofthe things that I most love
about what we get to do is weget to be involved with people
who are working across thiswhole spectrum of different

(09:15):
services that are being provided.
So it could be somebody whoworks in education and we're
helping them get to these placesthat they're serving to maybe
fly teachers in or the salaryfor those teachers or the food
that those teachers need or thebuilding supplies for a school.
So we're not necessarily theeducation professionals, but

(09:36):
we're helping those who are toget to the places where they
need to go.
On the medical side, almostevery day that MAF is flying, we
are conducting medicalevacuation flights, so we're
bringing somebody from a placein the interior parts of a
country out to a city wherethere's maybe a more
sophisticated medical facilitywhere they can receive needed

(10:00):
care or treatment.
So we're doing that almostdaily, and so we're not the
doctors or the nurses or themedical professionals, but we
work with those who are to helpthem get those people to where
they need to go.
Community development we'reinvolved in a lot of that, just
helping communities to get to ahigher level of advancement, if

(10:22):
you will, and that could just beflying food supplies that they
need.
It could be something reallybasic.
I mean I would fly loads ofnoodles or flip-flops or school
supplies.
I remember once flying into avillage where my cargo was a

(10:43):
bank safe, and so this was likea 2,000 pound safe that I was
flying into this village andthere was a new bank and there
had never been a bank in that,really in that whole region.
This was in the interior part ofIndonesia, and in many cultures
around the world it's hard tobuild wealth, and when I say

(11:04):
wealth I mean think of justminimal savings.
I'm not talking about beingparticularly affluent, but just
trying to set aside some moneyfor the unexpected is oftentimes
hard to do that, because inmany cultures if you start to
have a little bit of extra, it'svery much expected that anybody
else who's in need whether it'sa neighbor or maybe a family

(11:25):
member they can come knocking onthe door and they have some
access to that, and there's somegood things about that.
But then there's also someproblematic things about that.
So this bank just having theability for people to start to
place money on deposit to maybebuild a little bit of wealth or
reserves for the unexpected weneeded to be the ones to fly
that bank safe in and I lovethat.

(11:46):
I just thought that was areally unique way to help a
community.
Or ballot boxes for an election, or a giant coil of cable for a
suspension bridge that wasgoing to go across a river.
I mean, we fly those sorts ofthings in our aircraft.

Grantley (12:00):
Or chickens and pigs right.

David Holsten (12:19):
Chickens and pigs right flying in different parts
of the world, and so that is aunique thing about MAF is we
really kind of get to beinvolved in this whole realm of
different ways that people aretrying to help those who are
living in isolation, and ourhangers in different parts of
the world are sort of thisintersection of really

(12:39):
fascinating work that's going on.
I may fly a missionary from oneof our hangers out to the place
where they're serving, and thenI'm bringing back a medical
patient and there's an ambulancewaiting to pick them up, and so
it's just an incredibly diversetype of work to be involved in.

Grantley (12:58):
Tell us a little bit about how Mission Aviation
Fellowship got involved in COVIDrelief how Mission Aviation
Fellowship got involved in COVIDrelief.

David Holsten (13:12):
Yeah, so COVID was a very I mean like for many
people incredibly challengingfor us to kind of figure out
what is this going to look like.
And because we're in thetransportation industry and
because we're involved inaviation, that's a highly
regulated industry and everyplace that we served we found
there was a different sort ofexpectation or iteration of what
the protocols needed to looklike.

(13:33):
So in some countries where weserved, honestly, the COVID-19
was just another thing added toa long list of things that could
kill people.
So that sounds sort of crass,but that's the reality.
In some parts of the world wherewe were flying there was active
war or unrest or they'vealready dealt with things like

(13:53):
Ebola or malaria or dengue feveror all the different things.
It was just added to the listand so some places we served
almost shrugged it off like,okay, it's another thing here.
And so in some of those placesthere maybe wasn't as much that
they were requiring us to do,whereas other locations they

(14:16):
were requiring daily testing.
Our pilots would have to get atest and show that to an
official before they could fly.
The airplane Passengers had tohave special approvals and
testing to be able to do that.
Just a lot of protocols in someparts of the world.

Grantley (14:31):
Let's talk a little bit about the delivery of the
actual, the core supply, exactlyyeah.

David Holsten (14:36):
Yeah, so in some parts of the world, as rapid
test kits were being developed,we were asked to deliver those
to clinics that would maybe beinterior.
So we did quite a bit of that.
We started to pick up COVIDpatients who were experiencing
significant respiratory issues,and when that would happen,

(14:59):
everybody they're in these fullbody suits to pick them up early
on.
When that was that way andwe're flying them out on our
aircraft, we would fly in oxygento remote clinics that had no
way of getting oxygen or togenerate oxygen on site.
So we'd fly in oxygen and otherrespiratory equipment that some

(15:21):
places needed, equipment thatsome places needed.
And then once vaccines werebeing developed, there were some
locations that were able tokind of get those distributed.
Now you have to realize I meana lot of the places we served.
They were sort of the last onesto receive some of these
resources, but because we couldfly the airplane and there's a

(15:42):
cold chain that's needed inorder to preserve vaccines, we
fly vaccines all sorts ofdifferent types actually
throughout our history.
That was another way that wewere involved in responding to
that.

Grantley (15:55):
Okay, yeah, I mean at a critical time.
Right, that probably wasn't onyour strategic plan back in 2020
, right, you wrote it in 2019.
Exactly, yeah, and in fact, anyou were older 2019.

David Holsten (16:05):
Yeah, and in fact , an interesting thing that a
lot of people didn't even thinkof just washing, just sanitation
, right?
So washing your hands Rememberhow early on I mean there was
all these instructions of thisis how you wash your hands and
you need to use a lot of soapand all that.
Well, we fly into places thatstruggle to even have soap.
Well, we fly into places thatstruggle to even have soap, and

(16:30):
so we had staff members who weregoing around to all the stores
in town and trying to buy up asmuch soap as we could so that we
could get that interior to someof the communities.
So, yeah, I mean, we fly inplaces that have very
rudimentary facilities, minimalsupplies and, in some places, a
minimal understanding of what todo, because they haven't had
the access to just the basicsort of instruction of what that

(16:53):
looks like, and so in somecases, our involvement during
COVID was very basic of justgetting soap to somewhere and
delivering information about howpeople could start to hopefully
combat that.

Grantley (17:10):
So that's interesting.
So, as you think about all this, maf is doing a whole bunch of
stuff, and there's the telecomstuff as well, with setting up
communications, but the originalmission of MAF is to reach
people in isolated places withthe gospel.
So how do you see God and thegospel and all of these things

(17:35):
that we just talked about?

David Holsten (17:37):
Yeah, absolutely.
There's a passage I think it'smaybe Luke in Luke 9, where it
describes Jesus and his ministry.
It talks about him goingthrough the country and he's
teaching and he's preaching andhe's healing people's diseases.
We also know we can read inother parts of the Gospels where
he's feeding people.

(17:58):
He is touching people you thinkabout the woman who is
suffering from bleeding foryears and he touches her,
reaching out to the marginalizedperson in society.
But he's also speaking veryboldly against the religious
leaders who had created all ofthis legalism.

(18:22):
And he's coming to that andhe's describing that I've come,
it's for freedom that I've come,to set you free.
No longer let yourselves beburdened by this yoke of slavery
, the sense of burden that wasbeing placed on people.
So I love this picture ofJesus's ministry where he is
bringing both freedom andfreedom to the world, a physical

(18:43):
and a spiritual impact.
Right, he's touching people'sbodies.
He is providing something theyneed which is as basic as the
food that they're eating,sometimes something as simple as
a conversation with an outcastof society, which is a beautiful
picture of what he comes to do.
And he's bringing the truth ofthe gospel, which is spiritually

(19:06):
helping to set people free.
And so we love to talk in MAFabout being a part of both a
spiritual and a physical impactin the people's lives that we
serve.
And so, way back at thebeginning, the roots of our
organization, as you mentioned,maf was really started by this
group of pilots and mechanicsthat came out of World War II.

(19:29):
They'd seen airplanes that wereused as tools of destruction
and they thought what could wedo for aircraft to be tools of
life, really to bringlife-saving health?
And in the 40s and 50s therewas this effort of missionaries
to reach some of thehardest-to-reach parts of the
world and they couldn't get inthere without airplanes.
And so MAF was formed initiallyto really come alongside of

(19:51):
those individuals and to helpthem get to the places where
they were going.
And those missionaries werebringing this message that was
impacting people spiritually andphysically.
If you've been to remote partsof the world and you see how a
missionary serves, they'relearning the culture, they're
learning the language, they'reteaching biblical truth, but
inevitably there's a long lineof people outside their door

(20:14):
getting Band-Aids and medicineand the missionary may be
helping them to think, hey, thisis probably the more sanitary
way we can deal with this orthis is how you could grow your
garden in this way, maybe, orthis is how you could grow your
garden in this way, maybe.
And so they're very muchinvolved in this more holistic
approach that involves aphysical and a spiritual impact,
and so we really embrace thatin MAF.

(20:35):
We want to be working withpeople who are bringing that
physical and spiritual impact topeople's lives, because that's
what they need.
If you just focus on one of themto the exclusion of the other,
you have problems.
Right, if you come in and, as aBible teacher or an evangelist,
if all that you're doing isteaching the truth of the gospel

(20:57):
and we love the truth of thegospel, that is life.
But if they're ignoringsomebody who's maybe starving or
somebody who is sick, it's hardfor that message, that
spiritual message, to gettraction in people's hearts,
because they're not seeing thatyou're attending to the needs,
the physical needs that arethere.
And on the other side of that,if you come in and all you're

(21:21):
doing is touching people'sphysical needs but you're not
giving them a message that givesthem eternal hope beyond this
life, that's problematic as well.
So we don't pit those thingsagainst each other.
We instead say look, they'revery integral.
We want to do both of those,because Jesus did both of them
he was involved in his earthlyministry was involved in both of

(21:43):
those areas.
So we want our staff serving indifferent parts of the world to
be able to articulate the truthof the gospel to others right
alongside of helping theirneighbor with the physical needs
that they have.
And I can remember driving ourneighbor literally to the
hospital so she could have ababy.
There was nobody who could dothat for her, or we had

(22:03):
different employees who wouldhelp us because that was very
much expected in our culture andwe were helping to feed their
families because that wassomething that they needed.
But we're also wanting to speakthe truth that Jesus is the way
, the truth and the life, andnobody goes to heaven except
through him, and so that's thetruth of the gospel.

(22:26):
So we're about that in MAF.
We want to bring both physicalhealing and addressing those
physical needs that people have,and then the spiritual truth of
the gospel to people whereverwe're serving.

Grantley (22:39):
That's a great, great explanation.
I appreciate that.
Another thing that MAF is doingis this podcast is about faith,
race and reconciliation, and inmany of the places you go,
there's two parts to thisquestion, but we're going to
deal with this first part firstand then come to the second part
, about just how you get tochange the lives of local people

(23:02):
right, not just necessarily thepeople you fly in or the
doctors and stuff, but you getto employ people.
You have a lot of local staffand in many ways, sometimes I'm
assuming the jobs that you givethem are, in those communities
or cultures, considered prettygood jobs is considered pretty

(23:24):
good jobs.
So how do you see that impacton the communities where you
serve, changing the lives of thepeople who may come to work for
you, doing something as simpleas mopping the hiring floor.

David Holsten (23:38):
Yeah, no, that's a great question.
So we are blessed to have justincredible people who work with
us.
As I mentioned at the beginning, we have about 600 different
employees and unfortunately,because we serve all around the
world in different places, we'venever been able to put all 600
in the same room at one time.
If we did, it would be awesomebecause it would be such a

(23:59):
diverse group of people fromSoutheast Asia to Central Asia,
to Africa, latin America, northAmericans.
I mean it would just be reallydiverse, multiple cultures and
languages, backgrounds, and sothat's a unique thing about MAF
is, if you were to come to ourheadquarters here in Idaho, just
because of where we're located,it can kind of look pretty

(24:19):
homogenous.
Just where we're located here,most of the crowd looks like me,
but then if we go to Africa, itcould look very different.
And Indonesia or wherever.
The work of MAF is only possiblethrough this collective effort
of everybody serving together.
We have that phrase in ourmission statement of serving
together, and we have a numberof employees who are from the

(24:43):
countries where we serve, numberof employees who are from the
countries where we serve, and soyou and I had a chance a few
months ago to be a part of ourboard meeting in Kinshasa, the
capital city of the DemocraticRepublic of Congo.
Kinshasa is a challenging placeto live probably 18, 20 million
people living in very crowdedconditions and we have Congolese

(25:05):
nationals who are working forus, some of whom have worked
with us for decades, and wecould not do the work that we do
without their help, and so someof them come in at entry-level
jobs.
They maybe have been hiredOccasionally.
They come with very minimaleducation and we're able to give

(25:26):
them a job and they can worktheir way up through increasing
levels of responsibility andcapability, which, for us, it

(25:48):
may be helping to prepare anairplane for an inspection,
where they're kind of removingseats or the floor, opening up
different inspection panels.
Maybe it is helping to clean ahangar or fuel an airplane or
help get passengers loaded ontoan airplane Really important
jobs that you need somebody tobe able to do for everything to
work and then, over time,because of their diligence in
doing that sort of job, we've beable to do for everything to
work and then, over time,because of their diligence in
doing that sort of job, we'vebeen able to equip them.

(26:11):
Some of them have gone on toget licenses as aircraft
mechanics and are actuallyleading the inspection.
Some of them go on to becomeexperienced enough that they
start to manage the functions ofour office.
They're going to theimmigration officials, they're
working with high-rankinggovernment officials and are
helping to procure permissionsfor us to fly in the places that

(26:33):
we fly.
They're doing flight schedulingfor us Again, very critical
roles.
That you take away any of thoseroles and our work just grinds
to a halt and they become veryrespected members of their
communities.
They're working for anorganization that's respected
and appreciated.
Many of them are kind ofinfluencers in their own right

(26:57):
in their own communities orchurches and a lot of them will
refer back to sort of theircareer at MAF as being pretty
impactful and they're sort ofgrowing their perspective of the
greater world and how itfunctions, how God has called us
to serve others, and they areco-laborers with us.
Occasionally we're able tobring some of those employees to

(27:18):
our headquarters here and takeeven a deeper level of training
with them, and that's awesome.
I think of this couple forinstance.
We have a husband and wife whoare both Mozambican, who are
part of our Mozambique team.
He's our director of safety andquality.
She's our lead finance personthere, and they met through
their about our work in otherparts of the world, like

(27:47):
Indonesia or in Haiti, and sotheir view of MAF's ministry and
just the world has really grownto encompass all these other
places.
And just talking to them, whatdo you think about it?
We love this.
We think it's such an amazingthing to be a part of.
So it's a great privilege ofours to be able to work with

(28:09):
these men and women who are fromvery different backgrounds than
what I grew up in, who lookdifferent than I do, who really.
I mean we oftentimes use thelanguage as brothers and sisters
and we're able to servetogether.
Yes, it is.

Grantley (28:33):
And I'm sure in those communities that's a dynamic
change, probably generationalchange, right, because their
children get benefit from thatand maybe even get to go to
school college from that andmaybe even get to go to school,
college.

David Holsten (28:53):
We have a number of different employees who you
know because of their connectionwith an organization that is
based out of North America,whose their children have
actually come to the States,gone to college here, you know,
in some cases then gone back totheir own countries and and yes,
or they've gone to school therein whatever country they're a
part of.
So we try to compensate them ina way that allows them to be in

(29:16):
a they're like comfortablymiddle-class in their culture.
That's kind of how we do that,because you have to be careful
that you don't sort of skew theeconomy in a weird way as you
come in, and so it's yeah, it'sjust a very special thing that
we get to be a part of, and I'mvery thankful for all of our MAF

(29:38):
employees who are from otherparts of the world.

Grantley (29:42):
Yeah, I mean, and our experience in Congo was just
amazing.
Yeah, I mean, and ourexperience in Congo was just
amazing.
So many people doing all ofthose things you talked about,
from helping clean the hangar,preparing the plans, doing
accounting, doing finance, doingbooking flights, just a whole
bunch going to customs, workingwith the immigration people,

(30:02):
just a whole bunch of differentthings and even starting a
school to help educate kids.
So lots of opportunities.
So the other part of thisconversation, then, was you talk
about the headquarters there.
It may seem like it's a littlebit homogeneous because of where

(30:24):
you are, but one of the thingsthat MAF is working on.
So traditional missionarymovement around the world has
been North American and Europeanbased.
Right, it was that sendingculture we're going to send the
people to the world, and becauseof that, most of the
missionaries were white or NorthAmerican, european, canadian

(30:48):
going out there, and then mostof the local people were the
people of their colors that workin those places.
But missions is changing andMAF has realized that there is a
lot of human capacity andcapability in some of these
places.
A lot of human capacity andcapability in some of these
places.

David Holsten (31:07):
Absolutely.

Grantley (31:07):
Some local people are just as capable to become pilots
and pilot mechanics and missionleaders, national leaders, and
you started this program to tryto consolidate some of that
capability.
But yet there's some challengesin trying to try to roll it out
, because it's still NorthAmerican base and where you're

(31:33):
headquartered and if you'regoing to put people to flight
planes, they still got to meetthe same requirements.
They got to be good pilots,they got to be good mechanics,
because they just don't go toone of those remote runways and
call in a pilot and he comesshowing up in his pickup like
he's here with everything loadedin the back of the pickup.
Let me fix you.
So you're trying to bring allof this together and give people

(31:55):
opportunities, which is verycommendable, but it's presented
some challenges.

David Holsten (32:02):
It does and I'm grateful you mentioned at the
beginning of the podcast you'reone of our board members.
No-transcript folks were comingout of the US and now that is

(32:46):
shifting further to NorthAmerica is still heavily
involved.
But there's other countriesthat are emerging as sending
countries.
We refer to them as the globalSouth.
They're in the Southernhemisphere, places like South
Korea, brazil, nigeria.
They are also sending people toother parts of the world and so

(33:09):
, yes, we're in this place wherea lot of times, as we would go
to work in a country, it couldbe a place like Mexico or
Mozambique or Indonesia.
Most of the employees who wewere working with, who are from
those countries countries had nointent of going anywhere else
outside the country.

(33:29):
They needed a job there andthey stayed in their own home
and that was really the pictureof what it could look like.
But in recent decades, thechurches in those parts of the
world are feeling a burden to go.
Well, we believe we need torespond to Jesus's call to make
disciples all around the world,and so you now have a Mexican

(33:52):
who is saying I'm willing to goto another part of the world and
be a missionary there, or aNigerian who's saying I'll go to
Indonesia to be a missionary,which is a fascinating thing.
What we're trying to do we'vecreated this program, we call it
International Pathways, andwhat we're trying to do is help
create a pathway for somebody tohave access to the financial

(34:13):
resources as well as thetraining that would equip them
to go into this very technical,demanding industry, where most
of the subject matter expertsare still sort of North American
based, and that's just areality.
And so you have to think aboutvisas, you have to think about
training, you have to preparethem to be cross-cultural, just

(34:36):
like somebody from North Americaneeds to go through that
training.
Aviation is an expensiveindustry to be able to obtain
the need of training, so we'retrying to marshal the financial
resources to help them do that.
But just a simple phrase thatwe've sort of used is from
anywhere to anywhere, right, wewant people who could be

(34:58):
potentially from any countryhave the ability to serve in any
other country, and we'restarting to see that.
So right now, this past, about amonth ago, we just received a
couple who have joined MAF.
They are Brazilian and he's apilot, his wife's a doctor.
They received most of thattraining in Brazil and then they

(35:22):
had their green cards.
They lived in the US and wereactually working in the US, and
they have now joined MAF andthey are assigned to serve in
Mozambique.
Mozambique speaks Portuguese,the same as Brazil.
They have bilateral agreementsso that his wife is able to
practice medicine when they goto Mozambique he's eager to fly

(35:42):
an airplane there and they areraising support to do that in
the US and they also haveBrazilian support base.
This is the future of missionsthere will still be North
Americans and we are praise God,we really want to have this
picture of we're part of thebody of Christ right, so we will

(36:04):
value people wherever they'recoming from and value the unique
role that they bring.
But that Brazilian couple, Imean it's complex because we
have to think, okay, how arethey able to raise support if
they're not US citizens?
In a place like the US, there'sspecial visas.
You need to have anunderstanding of North American
culture because of ourheadquarters being here.

(36:26):
You're looking at training thatis in many ways, sort of comes
out of a North American mindset,but now you're going to be
flying as somebody from Brazilon the continent of Africa and
so there's learning that cultureand what's normal there and
it's complex, but we believe wehave to lean into that and we
have to embrace that and we haveto work hard to think through

(36:51):
some of those dynamics, becausethe North American talent base
is not enough and, besides, ifit's just North Americans going,
it's also is not the picture ofthe whole body of Christ.

Grantley (37:03):
So we want people.

David Holsten (37:04):
We're just.
It's a richer experience.
It's when you have morediversity in that way and it's
just a more complete picture ofwhat the body of Christ looks
like, and that's where we thinkwe need to be heading.

Grantley (37:17):
Yeah and it's not either.
Or it's not North Americans andEuropeans or people from other
countries, it's both.

David Holsten (37:26):
Absolutely, because we just each of us,
bring unique strengths from thebackground that we come from the
childhood, the culture, all ofthe different things that shape
us as we go into adulthood.
We bring unique things to thetable because of that, and so we
want to try to leverage that ina more complete way, because it
raises the tide for everybody.

Grantley (37:48):
I really like that program.
I really like how that's beingdeveloped and obviously if it
was easy everybody would bedoing it.
That's right.

David Holsten (37:57):
If it was easier, it would have been done already
.

Grantley (38:00):
But then on the other side, there's the challenge when
these people go to places.
Now they've been to placeswhere people have culturally
expected missionaries to look acertain way or to come from a
certain way, and now otherpeople are coming in.
So it's not just the transitionthat's happening here and

(38:20):
allowing other people toparticipate in the missionary
movement, there's also changesthat's going to be going on the
other side, the receiving end,to say this person is a
missionary too.
This person is capable of doingthis too.
This person deserves all theother things that we're allowed
with a missionary.

(38:40):
So this is a bicultural thing.
The thing that we're doing iscreating a new model, but it's
going to be pushing change fromthe back end saying, yeah, this
Brazilian pilot is a missionary.
We're not accustomed to seeinga Brazilian pilot as a

(39:01):
missionary, but here's what itis.
And there may even be somegovernments in some places who
may say are you guys for real,is this really true or are you
trying to do something elsebehind the scenes?
Because in some places,governments are suspicious of
the work that MAF is trying todo at first, until they realize
that it's truly genuine, it'struly there to help.

(39:23):
For whatever reason they havethat suspicion.
Historically, maf has beenreally good at helping overcome
those suspicions and build trustin places that are again not on
the beaten path.

David Holsten (39:41):
Yeah, you're exactly right.
There may be a certain mindsetthat is becoming more
commonplace in North America interms of accepting people when
certain roles or professions whobring there's a diversity there

(40:01):
.
That is, when you travel aroundthe US, it's a pretty diverse
country in terms of what itlooks like, all the people who
have immigrated here, and it'sjust you become more accustomed
to seeing that.
There were many times when I'vebeen in other parts of the
world where we serve, where I amthe only white person that I

(40:22):
can see anywhere, and so, yes,there are certain assumptions
that are attached to like okay,well, maybe it's just yeah, the
missionaries are just the whitepeople here.
Now, thankfully, even outside ofMAF, there has been in recent
decades, you see, that same morediverse look starting to take
place, even in missions, evenoutside of the aviation realm.

(40:46):
I mean, we've flown Bibletranslators who are Indonesian
or African.
We've flown doctors, certainly,who are Indonesian or African
or Haitian or from Central Asia.
So I think that, as we'reseeing it slowly progress, but
it tends to be behind, kind ofwhere you know we are here and I

(41:08):
think it's.
I mean, I'm excited, I thinkit's a beautiful thing for
somebody to be able to see, tobe in an African, a village in
Africa, and we have a pilot inpilot in Kinshasa who flies out
of Kinshasa, who's Nigerian andhis wife is Congolese.
And for them to see this fellowAfrican get out of the airplane

(41:31):
and to serve them and love onthem and do everything that we
want our pilots to be able to do, is an amazing thing for them
to be able to witness and to gooh man, I can do this.
And we say, yes, you absolutelycan.

Grantley (41:44):
It's what I was thinking right, all of those
kids and people who see that, oh, I can do that too.
I never thought about it, butnow I can do that.
So you're sort of beginning tocreate what I think eventually
become a pipeline of people whoare saying I want to give a hand
at flying one of thoseairplanes.
I think God's calling me tothis Aviation is not necessarily

(42:07):
going commercial.
I can serve God and you canserve God being a commercial
pilot too we're not saying thator military pilot, but I can
serve in a mission's capacityand still fulfill my dream to
fly, or still fulfill my dreamto be a mechanic, because all
aviation mechanics don't want tofly, they just want to fix
stuff.
They like to fix stuff.

(42:27):
There's a lot of back stuffthat goes on in.
Like you said, to fly anaircraft that doesn't include
flying.

David Holsten (42:36):
Absolutely Lots of behind-the-scenes work.

Grantley (42:39):
Or maybe somebody wants to become a fuel expert
because we know there's a wholeindustry now looking at new
aviation fuels and more energyefficient and that may be a
whole new field.
If somebody says, oh yeah, Iwant to become an engineer and
help develop the next fuel tohelp you guys save fuel.

(43:00):
Or here in Washington there'stwo companies that are trying to
develop electric aircraft, soyou can see this whole thing
beginning to spread its fingersin a whole bunch of different
places.
Now that people look atthemselves and say I'd like to
have a try at that, because Isaw somebody who looks like me
who is actually doing it.

David Holsten (43:19):
Yeah, absolutely that's our prayer, and I think
that, by God's grace, we startto sow the seeds of imagination
right, that somebody is startingto imagine themselves doing
something, because a lot ofplaces we serve, our airplane is
one of the only links to sortof the rest of the world for
them, is one of the only linksto sort of the rest of the world

(43:44):
for them, and so without it,there may be multiple
generations of a family thatjust they never really come to
understand the world that liesoutside of that village or
outside of that area, and someof them are very content to be
there and great, but there'sothers who are imagining what
else could be, and so sometimesthe airplane is the means that
they can get to that other place, and it's the conversations

(44:06):
with our staff who are therethat can help them think maybe
beyond the confines of whatthey've always imagined.
And so I think, yeah, it'sexciting to think about the
future and what our organizationcould look like 20, 30 years
from now.

Grantley (44:22):
Yeah, I want to tell this story because I thought
this was really fascinating.
We were in Kinshasa and we wentto the remote hospital in Guam
right, I think it was 200 milesout of the city of Kinshasa.
But there was this young manthere who got into this really

(44:45):
bad motorcycle accident inKinshasa.
I don't know if you rememberhim in the hospital.

David Holsten (44:49):
Oh, I'll never forget him.
Jeremy's his name.

Grantley (44:51):
Yeah, and the thing that I thought was fascinating
was his accident happened inKinshasa and I think that I even
thought he was dead at somepoint, but he wasn't.
Yes, His legs were messed up,he had some serious injuries,

(45:22):
but the fascinating thing to mewas that the solution they
taught the best place for him toget treatment and to recover
was not in this majorinternational city that we
assume have all the capabilitiesand everything to deal with a
person that critically injured.
They came to the conclusionthat flying him to the mission
hospital in Vanga was his bestmeans of recovery.
And we got to see him there andwe got to talk to him and he
was so grateful for his recoveryand the help he got.

(45:42):
He was so grateful to MAF forflying him and for the mission
hospital there.
And to me that was like aturnaround, because in the
United States, in North America,we would say you take him to
the Seattle General or Boise orSalt Lake or Atlanta General or
New York Sinai, right.

(46:04):
But here the solution was 200miles away in a remote village
I'm talking about remote villagein a remote hospital, because
that's where the best care was.
And I think the other thing waswe didn't get to see this, but
I saw it in the magazine when heactually got to leave the
hospital and the MAF plan alsotook him back to the city.

David Holsten (46:27):
It completely upends some of your assumptions
of how these things work.
And one of the reasons thatthey determined he would be
better treated in that smallhospital interior was because he
had more family members outthere who could also help care
for his needs.
And in the US, part of theservices you get when you go to

(46:50):
a hospital I mean they bring youyour dinner and you can even
choose from a menu.
What do you want to have?
Well, that's not how it works.
In a lot of places in thedeveloping world, it's your
family cooks the food and theybring it to have.
Well, that's not how it works.
In a lot of places in thedeveloping world, it's your
family cooks the food and theybring it to you.
And so you could potentially goto a large hospital, a place
like Kinshasa, but not haveanybody there who can feed you.
And these are things that peoplejust they don't think about

(47:14):
oftentimes when you imaginewhat's the rest of the world
like?
But that's the world that weserve in at MAF.
And so, yes, you have thisstrange reality.
We're going to fly this youngman from a city of 15 plus
million people to this smallvillage because he'll actually
get better treatment there andremember he prayed for us.

(47:34):
It was an amazing moment.
He wanted to pray this prayerof blessing over us out of
gratitude, and he has all thesescars and wounds on him still,
but he had a huge smile and thatjust left an impact on me.
I don't think I'll ever forgetthat moment.

Grantley (47:49):
Yeah, I mean it was powerful.
And just to see how it all cametogether and most North
Americans would walk into thishospital and say there's no way
that this would be the bestchoice for him.

David Holsten (48:00):
It's pretty rough .
It's a pretty rough place.

Grantley (48:03):
Where it is you wouldn't expect it to be,
because flying over, I mean,this is remote, remote, remote,
but it was powerful to see howGod works.
Reminds me of one of my friendswho was a missionary, who had
this message called God's upsidedown theology the things that
we sometimes think are the bestway is not necessarily the way

(48:26):
that God works.
That's right, sometimes he workswhere we think that would be
down, that is not the way to go.
But he says, yeah, that's theway it's supposed to go.
Right, right, not in the bigcity with 30 million people.
Go out to the village andthat's where you'll find the
answer that you need.
But it helps us to not getcomplacent and to think that we

(48:50):
always have all the answers andto think we know what's always
best, because sometimes what'sbest is what is best in that
community, for those people inthat culture, because they know
how it works.

David Holsten (49:03):
That's right, yeah, To have a contextualized
understanding of the rightsolutions.
You absolutely cannot show upand say the template has to be
based out of a European contextor a North American context or a
Southeast Asian context.
Again, there's good things thatcan come from that, but in

(49:24):
other ways it's going to fallcompletely flat.
It's dead on the realities thatthey have to be a learner in
that environment and to reallybe co-laborers with them and to
think okay, am I even asking youfor your perspective?

(49:47):
Am I seeking your input in thewisdom that you have to bring to
this and vice versa, and are weable to have a conversation and
interaction that helps usarrive at a solution that's
going to play well in thatenvironment?

Grantley (50:03):
the.
I want to talk a little bitabout technology, just just for
two minutes.
One of the things that I foundfascinating about maf also was
that you have this.
Some places you go you have tocreate your own technology, like
set up up internet so peoplecan communicate with each other.
You use a lot of technology inthe offices but I remember where

(50:26):
we went and we saw you had toset up the antennas to create
internet service, to getinternet service to people to do
the work.
Let's talk a little bit aboutthat part of it.

David Holsten (50:52):
Let's talk about that part of it.
Sort of things require varioussoftware systems.
Some of them are cloud-based,so then you need internet, so
then you need power to run it.
I mean, all of these things arerequired.
So we have a great team of ITprofessionals who work with us
and they help us to.
I mean, in some places you'resetting up, you're trying to get

(51:14):
internet connections.
It may be through a localservice provider, but sometimes
you're having to use a VSATsystem or something like
Starlink, and then you need toget that signal to the places
where it needs to go, and sothat could be typically that's
through wireless connections.
You have a tower that's settingup, that's relaying that signal

(51:35):
somewhere, but then you'reliving in places that have
really intermittent electricity,and so we're putting in solar
systems and batteries and thebackups to allow that, so that
if the power drops off which insome places is a daily
occurrence and is off for hoursyour internet is not interrupted

(51:56):
.
Your ability to work in thesecloud-based software systems can
continue on, and so we have awhole team that is involved in
just getting that installed andmaintaining it, and it's
amazingly complex.
You don't just install it andthen expect that it's going to

(52:16):
just function perfectly for thenext 10 years.
I mean, our team is they'rehaving to roll out.
They're rolling out softwareupdates, they're doing firmware
updates.
Something goes offline andthey've got to figure out okay,
how can we set this up?
They're doing backups, infosecurity, that surrounds all of
that, and we have a team thatbasically has 24-hour coverage.

(52:38):
So we even have developed an IThelp desk where if one of our
staff members in Africa, forinstance, has an issue, they can
send in a ticket to our IT helpdesk.
And maybe our team here in Idahohas already gone home for the
day, but we have a specialistwho's in Europe or in Indonesia

(52:59):
who receives the ticket and theycan address it while North
America's asleep.
And then North America wakes upand they take over the issue
while Indonesia goes to sleep,and so our team has kind of
worked out a whole way ofhelping that to function.
And that team is staffed by.
I mean, we've got Indonesianstaff members, we have Congolese

(53:19):
staff members, we have Dutchstaff members.
It's a very diverse group offolks who are all working
together as IT professionals tomake it work.
So it's pretty cool, and if itdoesn't work, you can have some.
We'll have people in the officewho can't do their job at all
if we don't have internet andthey're trying to move forward

(53:42):
and all of a sudden having towrite things down on paper, and
so it's interesting trying touse 21st century technology
solutions in parts of the worldthat are still struggling to
just have decent electricity.

Grantley (53:54):
So, as we turn the corner to wrap up our
conversation, what advice orrecommendations would you have
for people who listen to thisand now they're probably being
Googled and MAF and looking atsome of the pictures and videos
and they say that's somethingI'm interested in, maybe
becoming a pilot or aircraftmechanic or, like we said, a
teacher or telecom person orwhatever.

(54:17):
What advice would you have forthem as they begin to think
about this and think about couldI fit within this specific
context of ministry, thisspecific context of service?

David Holsten (54:31):
Yeah Well, just a few things as I reflect on that
.
I think it's sort of aphilosophical level.
Before you even get into, do Ihave maybe the aptitude or the
experience, all the differentthings that are maybe needed at
a technical level.
I think it's important for usto kind of imagine ourselves at

(54:55):
the end of our lives and,looking back, you try to imagine
yourself reflecting on the lifethat you've lived and what do
you want to be able to say aboutit?
What are the things that youwant to be able to look back on
and go?
I don't want to have regret inthose particular areas, because
I think when my wife and I wereconsidering this, that was

(55:16):
something that we would kind ofhave some conversations about.
We just thought this is goingto radically impact our lives as
we leave our families and we goto a different part of the
world.
But we both shared this desireto do it and we just said if we
don't do this, I think we'regoing to look back on it and
regret it.
We're going to wish that we didit and now I can say, 25 years

(55:38):
later, I mean, there's mistakesthat we've made, there's things
that we wish we could dodifferently, but, big picture,
we would do this again.
We don't have regret for doingthis, and so I think that's a
good thing.
To kind of start with is to gookay, what sort of life do I
want to live?
What sort of impact do I wantto have?
And because you're going tohave to say no to some things in

(56:02):
order to be able to say yes tothis type of life, and you need
to wrestle with that.
It's not necessarily surroundedby prestige and affluence, and
you're going to go to some hardplaces, and then there's going
to be people who, just you, willvery much be the minority in
some locations, and that comeswith different challenges and
everything.
And so, wrestling with that andworking with that, and I think

(56:25):
then going, what am I passionateabout?
What is something that I lovedoing?
And if it's aviation and ifit's serving Jesus, well, I
think MAF could be a great placeto consider what that looks
like, and they can go to ourwebsite and learn about it and
get in touch with one of ourrecruiters who could talk to
them and that's all possible tokind of click on various links

(56:46):
on our website to figure out howto do that.
But in and outside of aviationif it's medicine or education or
community development orliteracy I mean all of these
different things the missionsworld has all sorts of
opportunities.
Engineers I've met missionarieswho are engineers, very
professionally trained, who'vesaid I want to help design and

(57:10):
develop infrastructure indifferent parts of the world to
help the people there, and sothere's so many different things
you can do and differentorganizations that are serving
in that way you need to wrestlewith.
Am I willing to do it?
Am I willing to go now to adifferent part of the world and
become a student of thatdifferent culture and people and
to enter into it with alearning posture, on to the good

(57:41):
things that God has grownwithin me and that I can offer
there, but also seeking to learnfrom them and grow from their
world?
So I think those are just kindof big picture, some things that
I think are good to wrestlewith.
But if there's an interest inserving the Lord in a
cross-cultural context in therealm of aviation I mean again,
I'm biased I think MAF is agreat place to look at.

(58:02):
Maforg is our website.
You can go to it.
We have pictures and storiesand videos and you can look at
and click on links about careerswith us and you can get in
touch with somebody who can sortof help you navigate.
What does that look like from atraining standpoint to joining
us and what does that entail andlike?
I said, as an aviationprofessional, I'm just grateful

(58:25):
to have done it.
It's a very unique type of work, but it's a really special way
to get to use an airplane.

Grantley (58:32):
Yeah, and I think that's true.
The organization is MAForgMission Aviation Fellowship.
There's a whole bunch ofinformation there that you can
get information on and you canreach out to people and they'll
reach back out to you.
Well, thanks for your time,david.
I really appreciate it.
Thanks for coming on Above theNoise and sharing Mission

(58:53):
Aviation Fellowship and theexciting work that you're doing
around the world and cuttingedge things in many places where
cutting-edge is not even thenorm, but the cutting-edge
allows you to do things andreach people that you ordinarily
would not have reached in a lotmore efficient ways.
And thank you for your serviceand thank you to all the people

(59:16):
at Mission Aviation Fellowshipwho put their lives on hold here
to go around the world and helpother people hear the gospel,
get medical help, learn all thethings that you do in these
places.
Thank you very much.

David Holsten (59:34):
Well, thanks again for the invite and
providing the opportunity for usto talk about it and hopefully
build some awareness out thereof a unique type of work and
ministry.
And next time let's have youcome out here to when you're out
here in Idaho.
We'll have you on our podcastthat we do, so that'd be kind of
fun.

Grantley (59:52):
Yeah, I appreciate that.
I look forward to it.