November 8, 2025 • 62 mins
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A five-day trek, a river that swallows missteps, and a video call that saves a mother and baby—this is what frontline HIV care looks like in Papua, Indonesia. We sit down with Dr. Agnela “Iggy” Chingwaro, an infectious disease physician from Zimbabwe, whose work braids medical expertise with faith, cultural humility, and stubborn hope. Her story exposes the hard truths behind late testing, the fear of national registration, and the maze of more than 300 local languages that shape how people understand illness, trust, and treatment.
We unpack the crucial difference between HIV and AIDS, why “undetectable” means suppressed rather than cured, and how that nuance can make or break adherence. Dr. Iggy contrasts Africa’s evolving HIV response with Papua’s current challenges, where stigma keeps many away until opportunistic infections like TB and meningitis take hold. She details how government-supplied antiretrovirals, TB, and leprosy drugs still need community bridges—portable diagnostics, trained local educators, and clinics willing to meet people where they are. You’ll hear how her team trains traditional midwives to screen pregnant women, uses telemedicine to coach emergency care, and partners with pilots and pastors to reach mountainside villages.
The conversation turns deeply human: the adoption of a child orphaned by AIDS, the refusal of ambulance drivers to transport patients due to fear, and the practical ways to dismantle myths about transmission. We also shine a light on the “forgotten generation”—youth facing rising HIV rates alongside alcohol and drug abuse—and the vision for a safe, youth-friendly center that offers counseling, education, and dignity. This is global health at eye level: compassionate, persistent, and built on trust.
If this moved you, help us grow the impact: subscribe, leave a rating, and share with a friend. Got thoughts or want to support Dr. Aggy’s work? Email abovethenoise24@gmail.com and join the conversation.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Grantley Martelly (00:08):
Welcome to Above the Noise, a podcast at
the intersection of faith, race,and reconciliation.
And I'm your host, Grant leyMartelly.
So welcome back to Above theNoise.
It's my honor today to welcomea friend that I met uh just this
(00:33):
year.
Her name is Dr.
Agnella Chingwaro, and she isuh serving in the country of
Indonesia, and her story is verypowerful.
Um, I think you're gonna loveit.
It's it's gonna be encouragingand inspiring the work that
she's doing.
Welcome, Dr.
Aggy, to our podcast.
Dr. Aggy (00:54):
Thank you.
Grantley Martelly (00:55):
So introduce yourself to our audience.
Tell us a little bit about youand your family and what you do
so that our audience can get toknow you before we get into the
work that you do and theministry that you do.
Dr. Aggy (01:07):
Thank you so much for having me today.
My name is Agnella Chengwaro.
And uh I was born and bred inZimbabwe in southern Africa, and
I'm the youngest of nine withnine siblings.
Grantley Martelly (01:21):
Are you married?
Dr. Aggy (01:22):
I am married to a Papuan Indonesian.
My husband is Papuan.
Grantley Martelly (01:27):
And how do you have any kids?
Do you have any children?
Dr. Aggy (01:29):
Yes, we do.
I'm a grandmother.
Grantley Martelly (01:32):
A grandmother, okay.
Yeah.
Dr. Aggy (01:34):
I have uh I have uh one granddaughter, Anaya.
Grantley Martelly (01:37):
Great, thank you.
So how did you get to Indonesiafrom Zimbabwe?
Dr. Aggy (01:44):
It started um during the HIV uh epidemic in in
Africa.
So we were working in thegovernment.
That's when we were asked toalso go to the churches.
And I'm a Lutheran.
Being a Lutheran, the LutheranChurch has uh a lot of hospitals
(02:05):
from where I come from inZimbabwe.
We have uh Lutheran hospitals,and then we were working with
the Lutheran World Federationdoing HIV outreach programs and
helping people living with HIV.
And then from there, uh, thatis when we started to encourage
the church board to haveinfectious diseases control
(02:30):
clinics in each and every churchfacility, church hospital.
And then from there, we startedgrowing and I started going
from one country to the other,working in the same mission with
the same organization as well,the faith-based organization.
Because my country is aChristian-dominated country, and
we have a lot of churches, andin those churches, there were a
(02:54):
lot of people infected with HIV,and there were a lot of deaths
being recorded.
So we needed to break thesilence from within the church.
So that's how I started.
Um, and then from there I wentto Botswana, and I was also
working with the EvangelicalLutheran Church in Botswana.
So that is when my my bishop bythen, Bishop Reverend Cosmos
(03:18):
Moenga the Late, when he went tothe meeting in German with the
United Evangelical Mission, isthe mission partners.
That is when they met thebishop from Papua, from the
Evangelical Church in Papua, andthey were talking about the HIV
issues in Papua and in othermission partners.
(03:39):
So when my bishop um wasretelling the story of how I
managed to handle the HIV case,cases in in the church, that is
when the bishop from Papua,Reverend Bishop Pendeta Yemi
Macrae, that is when she alsoasked if my bishop could send me
(04:01):
to Papua also and maybe helpthem with the issue.
So when my bishop came backfrom Germany, from Wuppertown,
and then he was asking me if byany chance I see myself working
in Papua Indonesia, and by thenI didn't even know where Papua
is.
So I had to Google PapuaIndonesia, and um what I saw, I
(04:25):
was like, okay, how did HIV getto this part of the world?
So I was so curious.
At first it was curiosity thatdrove me to Papua, and I was
only told it's uh it's uh 3 ATM,and for me it was okay, and
then I I signed up for that, andthat's when I came here to to
(04:48):
Papua.
I was with the uh EvangelicalChristian Church in Papua, that
is called the Gika E, meaning inIndonesia it is Greja Christian
Injil Ditana Papua.
Grantley Martelly (05:00):
Thank you for that introduction and how you
got to Papua New Guinea.
So where did you get where didyou begin your medical training?
Dr. Aggy (05:07):
Uh in 1999.
Grantley Martelly (05:11):
Where's mine?
Pardon me?
Dr. Aggy (05:15):
In Zimbabwe.
Grantley Martelly (05:16):
In Zimbabwe.
Dr. Aggy (05:20):
Yes.
Grantley Martelly (05:20):
So you became a doctor in Zimbabwe.
You were working there, andthen you came over as a as a
doctor to Indonesia.
Were you always in familypractice or were you in
infectious disease?
Dr. Aggy (05:31):
Infectious diseases.
Grantley Martelly (05:33):
Infectious diseases.
Dr. Aggy (05:35):
Yeah.
Grantley Martelly (05:36):
Tell us a little bit about your faith
journey because as you said inyour introduction, you're
working with uh Christianorganizations that brought you
to from Zimbabwe to Botswana toPapua.
And so tell us a little bitabout your faith journey.
Dr. Aggy (05:52):
Yeah.
Uh I was raised by a very, verytraditional Lutheran family.
My my parents were very, verytraditional Lutherans.
And from there, the way we wereraised was mainly, and I I used
to see my parents um helpingother people and always doing
the, you know, in Zimbabwe, inwhere I come from, in Mashona
(06:17):
Land Central, there are timeswhen we have drought, where
there's no rain at all, andthere will be shortages of food.
And my great mygreat-grandparents were farmers,
so it it it was passed on togenerations up to my father.
So they are also farmers.
They were also farmers.
And uh whenever they had foodand during the drought uh
(06:42):
period, they would share theirfood with other people.
But they would not just go anddish out the food to the
communities.
They will invite them and sharethe word of God.
They pray together.
After that, they will share thefood.
It really encouraged me also todo that.
And at times my mom would bebusy doing some other things,
(07:05):
and then I'll be helping my mygrandfather to do that, and and
my ma my my my dad will behelping him also to do that.
And during that same process,some women would bring their
malnourished children, very sickchildren, you know.
And how were we going to helpthem?
Usually they would havediarrhea, and then my
(07:27):
grandmother would say, just boilsome water and put six
teaspoons of sugar and twoteaspoons of salt for
dehydration, and then you put ina in a liter bottle and you you
give them.
So that gave that uh sproutedthe passion in me to help other
people, just by uh doing thesugar and salt solution for
(07:48):
dehydration.
So I felt very proud each timeI would go and follow up, like,
how is your baby today?
Is is your baby still havingdiarrhea?
They said, no, after givingthem the sugar and salt
solution, it just stopped andthey're doing much better.
So it it encouraged me also todo more, to wanted to do more.
So that's when my grandfathersaid, I pray that one day you'll
(08:12):
become a doctor.
And then I fulfilled mygreat-grandfather's wish.
Grantley Martelly (08:19):
That is a great legacy to be passed on to
you and to plant that seed inyou to become a doctor, the
example of your parents inserving others and finding that
simple solution to a problemthat is all over the world, you
know, the sugar and saltsolution to help children with
diarrhoea can save so manylives.
So did you ever did you everthink about becoming a
(08:41):
missionary?
Or even when you came to Papua,did you see yourself as a
missionary or you were justcoming as a doctor to serve for
a little while?
Dr. Aggy (08:51):
Not at all.
I never, I never saw myself asa missionary.
But when I was working before Icame to to Papua, that is when
I realized that if I remainwithin the government uh shell,
I would not be able to reach outto more people.
So it made me want to breakaway from being a civil servant
(09:15):
into a missionary.
Because when whenever we go tothe church facilities, you find
a lot of people they will bethere as compared to the
government facilities.
Because they knew when they goto the church facilities, that's
when they are going to get thehelp, be it with food, be it
with clothing, whatever shelter.
(09:37):
Even in during disaster times,the church will be in the
forefront, especially uh theLutheran World Federation and
other church organizations, thethe Christian council churches,
you know, they'll they'll theywill be in the forefront.
During those times, the churchhad an upper hand in gathering a
lot of people, whether theyhave problems or not.
(10:00):
So that's what that's when Imade a decision that no, I think
I should come out of this shellof working in one institution
and go on a broader um practiceworking as a as a missionary.
Grantley Martelly (10:16):
When you came to Papua, then you were you had
already made that transition tobe a missionary because you
were you started working with achurch organization back in your
home.
Dr. Aggy (10:27):
When I came to Papua, that's when I emerged myself
into becoming a missionary.
That's when I I found the realmeaning of being a missionary.
Grantley Martelly (10:37):
What did you find that that meaning to be
when you got to Papua?
Dr. Aggy (10:42):
The situation that um I've been working with in
different parts of of Africa istotally different from here.
And the approach that we usedto do in Africa is totally
different from here.
So in Papua, there are so manyaspects that we look at.
(11:03):
It's either it's emotional,it's political, you know.
So they are very sensitive.
And I would always wanted touse um the the faith approach.
And Papua is not only Papuawhere you you have the Christian
community, it's amulti-denominational community.
(11:25):
There are so many faithdenominations here, so it's very
difficult.
So it made me strengthen mypractice.
Like I'm focusing on being amissionary, and uh I'll be
working mainly on on uhdifferent uh faith
denominations.
How am I going to do this?
Because I'll be facing the theIndonesia is an Islamic state,
(11:50):
and it is Hindus, it is it is uhChristians and you know other
denominations.
So and all those denominations,they are also being faced with
HIV.
And when we talk of HIV, it isno culture, it is no language,
it is no faith, it is it is norace, no color, no language.
(12:11):
So all those that are infected,I needed to embrace them in
order to be able to tackle theproblem.
So that's when I rooted myselfinto becoming a missionary.
How do I work within theIslamic community?
How do I collaborate within theHindu?
So Papua really strengthened mymission as a as a missionary
(12:35):
here, that yes, I'm going to bea missionary.
Grantley Martelly (12:39):
So let's talk a little bit about the AIDS
epidemic and the AIDS situation,because uh that is your that is
your specialty that whereyou're working.
As we begin, give us acomparison between the the AIDS
epidemic in Africa and then whatyou found when you came to
Papua.
Was it similar, was itdifferent, and how is your work
(13:02):
either similar or different fromwhat you were doing back then
in the AIDS community?
Dr. Aggy (13:06):
Yeah.
Um thank you.
It's it's very different in thesense that um in Africa, we
when we talk of HIV, our peoplequickly understood it.
And they quickly realized thatwe were perishing.
The people were dying, and wewould speak the same language
(13:30):
and understand each other.
And they would come forward.
And of during the early days ofHIV and AIDS, there was a lot
of stigma, but when our peoplegot more education on that
issue, they quickly understoodit and they quickly changed
(13:50):
their way of living.
For example, in my own culture,when a man dies, he leaves
behind a wife.
And that woman, that wife, theymight have paid a full bride
price and they have children,and the the family from the
deceased man would not allow thewoman to go back to her own
(14:12):
village.
They would arrange for somebodyto remarry that woman.
So it went on and on and on andon.
So the moment there's aninheritance, even marriage
inheritance from my own culture,a lot of people were dying.
Because the widow will beinfected with HIV.
(14:35):
And they find a replacementfrom within the family or from
within the extended family toinherit, to remarry that woman,
so that she doesn't go away withthe wealth from the deceased.
And then within two years, thatsame man will die again.
And that same woman would wantto be a children for the new
(14:56):
husband, and that child wouldautomatically die again.
So we realized that this wasbecoming a problem, and we
addressed it, and the peopleunderstood that.
So when I came to Papua, it wasa different, it it is still a
different issue that we haveover 300 languages here in
(15:20):
Papua.
Even in Jaipura, there are alot of languages.
You go from one district to theother, there's a different
language.
So although they speakIndonesian, but they're
different languages, differentculture, different beliefs.
So it's very difficult topenetrate in those different
beliefs and different culturesas compared to Africa, where
(15:45):
they have uh they can be Shonaspeaking people with different
dialects, but they are Shonapeople.
But in Papua, they can be Papuapeople, but with different
languages, different culture,different everything.
So it it was building a verybig wall, and it is still a very
(16:10):
huge uh difference in order tobe able to tackle the HIV issue.
So the main difference is whenwe are talking of HIV in purple,
we have to have a certain typeof approach.
You can't just say, Yes, youare here, I'm testing you for
(16:35):
HIV, and because I'm suspectingyou this.
Because they they will feeloffended.
Like, why would you say I haveHIV?
Why would you want to test mefor HIV?
And then the next thing theywould some some of them would
say, I don't have HIV because Idon't have multiple sexual
partners.
(16:55):
I am sick because maybesomebody did something to me,
you know, the the black magic orsomething like that.
So in comparison to Africa,they quickly understood that.
But in Papua, we are stillworking on that.
And also, once you test forHIV, it's not like when they are
(17:17):
still very healthy and youscreen for HIV, it's difficult
also to gather them up and say,let's do this and we are going
to do the HIV testing.
But they would want to presentthemselves to the medical
facility while they are alreadysick or in AIDS condition.
So we'll always encourage themto come forward for testing
(17:40):
while they are still healthy,while while it's still just HIV,
not AIDS.
So when you talk of Africa, inmy own country today, if if
somebody feels uncertain withthe condition, he or she'll just
go to the pharmacy and buy theoral swab for HIV.
(18:02):
And she does it herself, itreacts positive.
She brings the same swab resultto the doctor, whether she
wants to go to the publichospital or to the private
hospital.
She brings it and said, Iswabbed myself and this is what
I got.
So we no longer close windowsand doors and do the counseling.
(18:24):
People just bring themselvesforward as compared to Papua.
So in Papua, it's just aone-way gate.
When you want to test for HIV,it's either you go to the public
clinic, the government-ownedclinic, or the government
hospital or any other privatehospital, that's when you you go
and have the the HIV testing.
(18:45):
Or you go to the privatelaboratory and you test for HIV.
But if you are tested for HIVfrom a private laboratory, it
means you are going to go backto that same one door that is
the government facility.
Because it's a subsidizedprogram from the government of
(19:08):
which the medication is forfree.
So once you go back there, youare going to be registered your
identity and everything.
So a lot of people here, theyfeel inferior that they've
tested for HIV and they arepositive.
And they wouldn't want to go tothe public hospital or wherever
(19:28):
they are going to be registeredwith their identity cards.
So we are facing a huge problemwith that.
They don't want to beregistered.
So there's an application,their whole country.
So once everybody's tested forHIV, they are registered into
that application.
And it's known the wholecountry that even if you go to
(19:51):
any medical facility, you wantto top up your medication, you
can just top up because you arealready registered.
So a lot of people do not wantto do that.
They don't want to beregistered.
Hence, they decide to refrainfrom treatment.
Grantley Martelly (20:07):
They don't want to be identified.
Dr. Aggy (20:09):
They don't want to be identified.
Grantley Martelly (20:12):
Let's do a clarification here.
There's two clarifications Ineed to make.
When I first began, I saidPapua New Guinea, and you're not
in Papua New Guinea, you're inPapua, Indonesia.
They're two separate countries,two separate places.
So that's my error, and I standcorrected.
You are serving in Papua,Indonesia.
Dr. Aggy (20:31):
Yes.
Grantley Martelly (20:32):
Other question is can you explain to
our audience the differencebetween HIV and AIDS?
Because you're making adistinction between the two.
From your medical perspective,what is the difference?
Dr. Aggy (20:44):
The difference is HIV is not a disease, it's just a
virus that got into somebody'sbody.
And the the function of HIV insimple terms, it ja it is there
to destroy the immune systemthat protects a human or that
helps fight infections.
(21:06):
The immune system.
And what is AIDS?
AIDS is comprised ofopportunistic infections that we
are always facing on a dailybasis, like TB, meningitis, all
these diseases have been there along time ago.
(21:28):
But because our immune systemhas been compromised by HIV, we
can no longer fight it on ourown like we used to do.
So when somebody has TB withoutHIV, they can be on treatment
and it's okay.
But if somebody has HIV andgets TB, it it becomes a
(21:51):
complication.
And also they can also havemeningitis, they can have any
other ailment of which suchailments that's what we call
AIDS.
Grantley Martelly (22:04):
Okay.
The distinction there is earlydetection, if I hear you
correctly.
And one of the battles you'refighting in the culture there is
early detection.
People don't want to be tested,they don't want to be detected
early.
If I hear you correctly, sothen by the time you get to see
them, they have already in fulldisease mode.
(22:27):
Which makes your work much moredifficult.
Dr. Aggy (22:33):
It it makes it very difficult and very expensive
considering where we are inPapua.
We are in a resource-limitedprovince.
Papua is very big, very huge,and geographically it's a
difficult to reach area.
It's very mountainous, andthere are some areas that are
very mountainous and waterloggedareas.
(22:55):
So everything that we have hereis is ordered from Jakarta or
any other other province outsidePapua.
So it's it will be very, veryexpensive to treat AIDS rather
than testing early and identifythe HIV or diagnose with HIV and
treat, put on antiretroferaltherapy before getting sick.
(23:18):
So once they get sick or oncethey become fully blown with
AIDS, the treatment is socomplicated.
And at times you try to treatsomebody who's having
meningitis, having TB, and whereonce they're having TB, the TB
becomes a multi-drug-resistantTB, because they attempts the
(23:43):
default treatment while theywere taking the first uh
category of TB.
So there are a lot of issuesthat happen.
Grantley Martelly (23:54):
So is there a difference in ages between men
and women, most of your parents,male or female, or it's evenly
distributed?
And also children, let's alsotalk about the effect on on of
airs on children.
Dr. Aggy (24:06):
Yeah.
They we have children born withHIV.
It has a huge, huge impact onthem.
Uh because when they are bornwith HIV, it means the mother,
when she was pregnant, she sheeither didn't go for HIV
screening or she didn't go to toantenatal care while she was
(24:30):
still pregnant.
So it's it's it's a WorldHealth Organization standard
that every pregnant woman getsscreened for HIV, hepatitis,
syphilis, and malaria.
But some women, because theyare living in out of reach areas
or where do not where they donot have access to medical
facilities, they would bepregnant and prefer having a
(24:53):
home bed and they are beingassisted by traditional
midwives.
And those traditional midwives,some of them they do not have
the knowledge about a womanbeing HIV positive and
transmitting the virus to thebaby, and also them being at
risk of trans of being infected.
(25:14):
So in this case, when childrenare born from HIV-positive
mothers, we usually want to givethem prophylaxis, but if they
are out of reach, we do not getin contact with them.
So now those children it'seither they don't reach the age
(25:35):
of five.
Grantley Martelly (25:38):
Early mortality.
So let's go back to the firstpart of my question.
Do you have you seen is there adifference between men and
women?
A are are pretty pretty evenlydistributed among the male and
female population.
Dr. Aggy (25:55):
It's is you know, we have uh a lot of female, you
know, it's not equallydistributed.
And a lot of women here, theyare infected with HIV.
But when we talk of HIV, wetalk of two individuals having
sexual contact.
So it's either that woman hasbeen tested for HIV and we did
(26:19):
not do the partner contactfollow-up.
Usually, especially it's amandate that when somebody tests
positive for any communicabledisease, we do the contact
tracing.
So at times they might havemultiple sexual partners and
sometimes they feel really badabout exposing themselves that
(26:42):
they had multiple sexualpartners of which they would
prefer just to identify one, orthey'll say, no, we're already
divorced, or I'm I don't haveany partner, um I'm living
alone.
So we cannot ethically wecannot push a certain
individual, say, just tell uswhom you have been in contact
with.
So gives us a huge number ofwomen with HIV, other than men.
(27:07):
Not because men are notinfected.
Men are also infected outthere, but they do not come out
in the open as women do.
Grantley Martelly (27:21):
Yes, that we we have a we have a similar
issue here in the United Stateswith men not wanting to go to
the doctor until their theirsymptoms are being expressed.
I have another podcast whichI'm thinking about also sharing
this on called Real Health BlackMen.
And the purpose of that podcastis to help men, primarily men
of color, come to grips with theneed for early detection and
(27:42):
early screening to prevent someof these diseases so that they
don't wait until they have painor their full-blown disease to
show up at the doctor.
So when I met you, a couple ofthings I want to I want to clear
up, I want to say here.
When I met you, I was in Papuawith an organization called
Mission Aviation Fellowship anddoing some work with them.
(28:04):
And you were talking about theremote places where it is, and
and sometimes it's hard forpeople in the West to understand
when you talk about remoteplaces.
And I got to see that formyself.
Papua is a large country, andsome places are only accessible
by foot or by canoe, orsometimes people are walking
(28:25):
days to get there and walkingback very remote villages, and
what Mission Aviation Fellowshipdoes, which I had an episode
with their CEO last summer, isto provide airplanes that get
people to these remote villages,people like you and teachers,
doctors, nurses, supply clinicsin these villages with medicine
(28:47):
and teachers with supplies sothat these people in remote
areas can get access to medicalfacilities.
But when we talk about medicalfacilities there too, we're not
talking about the mayor clinic.
We're talking about a clinic ina small clinic in a village
that may be serving people fromhundreds of miles around, right?
(29:09):
It's something that's hard toimagine unless you've seen it.
Dr. Aggy (29:14):
So it's very true.
Even if uh when you go to tothe remote areas, when you talk
of remote areas, we talk of uman area where uh the Cisna, the
Cisna airplanes or the Piratosairplanes, when when when when
you miss the time, like if yougo after 10, they would say we
(29:35):
cannot get there anymore becauseit's too windy.
We we risk you know having youknow a plane crash.
And at times they would dropyou somewhere, and then you have
to walk on foot.
Maybe for a person like me, Iwould walk for five days.
But you know, by God's grace,we managed.
(29:57):
There are a lot of obstaclesthat we ended up.
Encounter and this is this is atropical region.
There's a lot of rain, there'sa lot of uh rivers, flowing
rivers, not just rivers, flowingrivers, and the thick
vegetation.
So we manage, and a lot ofpeople who have who are called
(30:17):
to serve, they don't look atthat.
They just move forward.
So I'm I'm I'm proud to saythat I am one of them.
I once went to a village in thehighlands called Kurima, and
the car just parked by theriverside, and the river is
called Yetni, and you don't seethe water flowing.
(30:39):
It flows from underground, andyou just see the sand on top.
But they would say, if youmisstep, you are going to drown
in that sand.
So the people who know the way,they will lead you.
And we were following theirfootsteps and going through that
(31:01):
river Yetni.
And I managed.
Where I come from, I don't havemountains.
I've never I've never climbed amountain, but I did hear.
So then I said yes.
So this is a calling.
Grantley Martelly (31:16):
All of that, all of that just to deliver
medical care to the village.
Dr. Aggy (31:20):
No, not only to deliver medical, not only to
deliver medical care, there willbe people there.
When I first came here, Ireally wanted them to know about
HIV.
I really wanted them to knowthat there's still life after
being infected.
When we do the outreachprograms, we will do the
testing.
Maybe we'll go there for threeweeks or even a month.
(31:41):
And they will be knowing that,oh, the team is coming from the
church.
They are coming.
And the women will be waitingfor us up there.
So after doing the outreachprogram, the testing and
everything, that's when you feelgood, like yes, all this
climbing and crossing ofvalleys, it really paid.
People now know that there'sHIV.
(32:04):
People now know that theyshould test.
People now know that theyshould be on treatment.
People now know that theyshould adhere to their
medication once they are ontreatment.
Grantley Martelly (32:16):
So you're bringing you bringing hope.
Bringing hope to people.
Yes, bringing hope to people.
So one of the things you toldme about in our first
conversation is that one of thedevelopments you've done since
you've been there is you'vestarted to create, is it health
educators or people that you'retraining who can who can go out
sometimes with you or headingyou into places to help with
(32:38):
medical education?
Dr. Aggy (32:40):
Yes.
We we are still doing that.
And uh I think you know thesituation uh uh in those remote
areas here in Papua, where thereare conflict conflict regions,
conflict areas.
So a lot of uh medicalpersonnel, they have been
evacuated from those areas.
(33:01):
So we realize that now that themedical personnel have been
evacuated, they have gone backto their respective cities or
villages.
So nobody's there.
So we decided to train thecommunity healthcare workers.
So when we train them, we aretraining them so that at least
they start to educate their ownpeople and they build bridges
(33:25):
between the community and theonly surviving clinic that is
available or the hospital, thenearest hospital that is
available.
So we train them to do themalaria testing.
We also train the traditionalmidwives to do the HIV screening
for pregnant women.
We train them also to be ableto identify risk pregnancies and
(33:49):
avoid obstratic fistulasamongst women and young girls
who are pregnant.
So they are doing a reallyquite a tremendous job.
And there are some areas whereI cannot go.
But those community healthcareworkers we trained, they are
from those regions.
They speak the same language,they they have the same culture,
(34:11):
they understand each other.
So once we train them, we equipthem, and they are the ones who
are going to represent usthere.
So they are the ones who aregoing to do the job, and we are
just monitoring them.
So it's it's it's it's quite ablessing that now they have
access to the internet, we cancommunicate.
And just two days ago, one ofour traditional midwives had a
(34:34):
complication with the placenta,and she was confused what was
she going to do about it.
It has been almost three hours,and then she decided to call,
and it was a video call, andthen we managed to help her to
save the mother and the baby.
So it's something that bringshope that, you know, yeah.
Grantley Martelly (34:57):
So you you're you're doing you're doing
telemedicine in remote villagesof Indonesia using satellite
phones and computers.
Dr. Aggy (35:06):
Yes, can you imagine?
One of our um, you know, I Ithink we have almost 15 uh
traditional uh midwives, andthose 15 traditional midwives,
they cannot read, they cannotwrite, they cannot even speak
Indonesian.
They are the indigenous people.
But we manage to communicate.
(35:29):
I don't know how.
You know, they you know, thework of God.
I don't know how.
Yes.
Their Indonesian is not clear,and I cannot understand them,
they cannot understand me.
But we we we work together, weunderstand each other.
Grantley Martelly (35:46):
And you do it over the you do it over the
computer, over video call.
That is amazing.
That is amazing that technologyis being used in many positive
ways.
One of the things you we alsotalked about was the the effect
of AIDS on children, and you youyou were sharing me the story
of the two children you adoptedwith um would you mind talking
(36:08):
about that?
Dr. Aggy (36:09):
Yes, sure.
One of my daughters, I mettheir parents, her parents when
they came to the clinic for HIVcare, but unfortunately we
couldn't serve them for a longtime.
The father was on treatmentwith me for almost six months,
but he he couldn't make it.
(36:30):
And then after that, the motheralso was very sick, and the
baby was almost three months bythen, and she managed to live
for almost two months and thenshe passed on.
If I may bring you back a bit,from my practice at the clinic
where I uh the clinic that I'mrunning for HIV and AIDS care,
(36:52):
uh we have an ambulance, andnobody wants to drive HIV
positive people, even deadbodies they don't want.
So they are afraid of it.
So I was the ambulance driver,even if there's an emergence
that I would need to rush to thehospital for some procedures or
(37:12):
something else, or if there'suh uh death, I would need to
bring the dead body back to thefamily.
So it was just me and mynurses.
So we were just a team ofwomen, but still we couldn't
find a driver who would want todrive dead bodies, HIA's dead
bodies.
So they'll it's discriminatory.
(37:34):
They don't want to do that.
And so when I brought the bodyof the mother, and then I said,
I have the baby too, and therelative said, Is the baby HIV?
Then I said, Not yet.
We cannot diagnose HIV yetuntil 18 months, and then they
(37:55):
said we cannot accept the babybecause we have other babies
here.
We are afraid that baby wouldinfect other babies.
And the body also was notallowed inside the house.
So we brought the body to thegrave side, and then we brought
the baby back to the clinic.
So bringing up that child at afacility where she sees a lot of
(38:20):
people suffering, and althoughthe nurses were so loving and
everybody loved, even the otherpatients laughed so much, and
she was such a bubbly littlegirl.
And then I realized I spoke tomy husband, I said, I think the
woman in me does not allow thisbaby to be raised in such a
facility where every day shesees very sick people because at
(38:44):
our facility we do not takecare of working patients, very,
very sick, bedridden AIDS, fullyblown AIDS cases.
I didn't want her to see that.
And then we agreed that webring her to our house.
And then that's how she came.
And then she after 18 months,we did the dry blood testing for
(39:08):
HIV detection, and then yeah,she was She's now your daughter.
She's now my daughter.
Grantley Martelly (39:14):
She's now your daughter.
So you you didn't just rescueher from the hospital, you
adopted her.
Yeah, and then when I got tomeet her, that was great.
Dr. Aggy (39:23):
Yes.
And then I said, let God's willbe done.
So until now, she's in uhjunior high school.
Grantley Martelly (39:32):
Great.
I'm growing strong.
Dr. Aggy (39:34):
Yeah.
Grantley Martelly (39:34):
So what what are some of the myths about HIV
and AIS that you would like ouraudience to understand?
Dr. Aggy (39:41):
Yeah.
There there are a lot of mythsabout HIV.
And you know, a lot of peoplewould think that HIV is a case,
whereby when somebody has HIVand transmits it to the wife and
other people, they would think,yeah, it's a curse from God.
Grantley Martelly (39:57):
A curse.
Yeah.
Dr. Aggy (39:59):
Yeah.
That's what they think.
And some would think that uhHIV is transmitted through
sharing uh utensils like sharingthe same cup, the same plate,
and sharing the same clothes.
And you'd find that when uhsomebody dies of uh AIDS, they
would they have a tendency ofbanning the clothes.
(40:20):
So at times I would say tothem, just wash the clothes and
iron them, and you continue touse them.
You don't have to.
And at times when I'm doing myoutreach programs, I would ask
them, like, have you ever beeninto a department store where
you want to buy your trousers oryour dress or something else?
They said yes.
Have you ever fitted thattrousers, tried it on?
(40:43):
They said yes.
And have you ever asked theshopkeeper that has this been
tried by somebody with HIVbefore I tried?
They said no.
Then I said, So how would youknow that somebody came and
fitted it and tried it?
And you know, was that personHIV positive or not?
They said no.
Then I said, it's the same.
(41:04):
So we are getting there butslowly through education.
So, and at times they wouldthink that HIV is transmitted
through malaria bites, mosquitobites.
So they would always ask, like,since mosquitoes they bite
people, and if it bites somebodywith HIV, is it going to
(41:25):
transmit the the the to the nextperson?
And then I'll say, if that isthe case, then the whole world
would be HIV positive.
Malaria, mosquitoes, they onlytransmit parasites.
They have parasites, notviruses.
And at the same time, when amosquito bites somebody and
there's the blood, it does notspit the blood back to somebody.
(41:47):
So it just bites, so there's nomal uh HIV transmission there.
So there are a lot of mice, uh,people think that HIV uh can be
cured.
That's how they think.
Yes, we tell them that we cancure AIDS, AIDS can be cured,
AIDS can be totally, totally becured, but HIV can be
(42:08):
suppressed.
We suppress the virus throughantiretropheral therapy if taken
as prescribed.
When uh now we have um advancedtesting for for HIV monitoring
where we do the fireal loads, wedo the CD4 counts.
So once we do the CD4 count andthe CD4 count is higher, and
(42:29):
then the fire load issuppressed, and then it says the
end result for the fireal loadsays undetectable virus.
So that message of sayingundetectable virus, when it's
conveyed to a certain individualwhose understanding is limited,
they would say the nurse or thedoctor said my virus is
(42:50):
undetectable, which means myvirus is gone.
And then the next thing theydon't want to continue with
their antiretroferal therapies.
So once they stop theantiretropheral therapy, when it
comes back, it comes backforward and it's very
aggressive.
And then people would say, Youare faking us.
You are saying there's lifeafter being HIV positive.
(43:12):
If you take your medication,why is it that our son was on
HIV treatment, was onantiretropherrotherapy?
And when when he went to test,they said the virus is not
detectable.
And we stopped medication, andthen he got very sick and he
died.
Why?
So it we still have to explainagain in education again and
(43:33):
again and again.
Yes.
Grantley Martelly (43:39):
Which creates the opportunity for the virus
to come back.
Yeah.
Dr. Aggy (43:42):
To come back again.
Grantley Martelly (43:44):
So many similarities with other with
people that we talk to here aswell.
You know, people say, well, Ifeel better.
Why do I have to take mymedication?
Dr. Aggy (43:52):
And some that some they would say, I don't, they'll
bring back the medication.
Grantley Martelly (43:56):
Yeah, humanity, no matter where they
live, yeah.
So what are what are some ofthe greatest needs in your
ministry right now?
Dr. Aggy (44:03):
Some of the greatest needs in um in my ministry right
now is that uh I still want tocontinue to train the people.
Now we are having a pip uh aproblem with um internally
displaced people from conflictareas.
And while they're in thoseshelters, they are not, you
(44:27):
know, being monitored.
So there are a lot of thingsgoing there: teenage
pregnancies, circulation ofinfections.
So I still want to reach outmore to them and train some of
the active people within thosecommunities so that they do the
health awareness within theircommunities where they are
(44:48):
displaced.
So now we are having an influxof uh um people having
communicable diseases, but theydon't even know how to deal with
that.
And those areas where they areuh displaced people, it's it's
not easy to reach those places.
But we can access them.
Just like a few months ago, webrought in about 30 uh
(45:11):
participants, 15 men and 15women.
We trained them other, we do wetrain the midwives, we trained
some some to do the screeningsand stuff like that, so that
they'll be able to do the healtheducation within their
communities where they are.
So that is my major need fornow.
And at the same time, we wantto upgrade our testing
(45:35):
equipment, especially ourlaboratory, would want to
upgrade it so that at least whenwe are doing all these outreach
programs, we bring ourequipment with us so that when
we get there, we wouldn't say,Oh, we wish if we could have
brought this or if we had this,we could have helped this
person.
(45:55):
And most mostly we would havehundred plus people who are
gathered.
And if I ask them, do youreally want to know your status?
Do you really want to knowwhat's happening in you?
And then they would voluntarilysay yes.
So we'll do the HIV testing, wedo the syphilis testing, we do
the hepatitis testing, we do themalaria testing, we also screen
(46:16):
for leprosy, we screen for TB,but then we do not have portable
equipment that we could bringwith us.
So it's a major obstacle thatmost of the times I would want
to, I would see there are signsand symptoms of leprosy, but
then I would want to know morewhat type of leprosy does this
(46:38):
person have that would really,you know, make me do the do the
right decision, the treatment.
How am I going to deal with it?
I want to test the morphology,I want to investigate more.
We have portable machines, butwe cannot, we do not have that.
We have TB.
I can't just go there and say,yes, you are having signs and
(46:58):
symptoms of TB.
And then I will say, um, I'mgoing to access anti-TB drugs
for you.
It's very dangerous becausemost of the times they might be
having multi-drug-resistant TB.
So we are not doing any good,but we'll be doing more harm.
So that is the majorcomplication that we face when
we are in our outreach programs,in our in our ministry.
Grantley Martelly (47:20):
How do you get medicines and equipment for
your ministry?
Are they supplied by privateparties or supplied by the
government?
Or is medicine easily availablewhere you are?
Dr. Aggy (47:31):
Yeah.
So when we talk of HIV and TBand leprosy, those drugs, they
are only supplied by thegovernment.
So we work together with thegovernment.
Our organization works hand inhand with some uh government uh
hospitals from the areas that weare working.
(47:52):
So once we we are, for example,when we are going to a certain
district, we go to the districtmedical um uh office, and then
we tell them that we are cominghere for A, B, C, D, and then
they will tell, okay, if we havesome cases like TB and HIV and
stuff like that, we are going toreport to them as well.
(48:14):
This is what we have found, sowe'd want to have some
medication, and then they'llaccess it to us, and then we
redistribute to the people init.
So there's no organization thatcan afford to buy an retroviral
drug for the rest of a certainindividual's life.
Only the government can accessit.
(48:35):
But the government cannot godoor to door like we do.
The government does not go tothe churches like we do.
So we are also working onbehalf of the government to
reach out to the people in need.
And then we report to them,they supply us, especially with
uh TB and HIV drugs,anthropherapies and leprosy
(48:59):
drugs, they they supply us andeven the malaria drugs, at times
they supply us.
But when we talk of uh thereagents for testing, at times
they do not supply supply usfrom the organization and other
donors.
That's that's when they supportus with that, because we would
(49:20):
need um the reagents to do thetesting.
Grantley Martelly (49:23):
What about equipment?
The the the testing equipment,you said like the mobile lab and
stuff like that.
Does that come from thegovernment too, or that comes
from private donations?
Dr. Aggy (49:32):
It comes from donations.
It comes from donations.
Like I said before, we wouldwant to upgrade that so that for
now we we only have an in-houselab.
So when you have an in-houselab, when you go to the
Highlands, to those remoteareas, you need a portable
(49:53):
machinery.
Grantley Martelly (49:54):
But that and portable machines are available,
you just need people orcompanies to donate them to the
ministry.
Dr. Aggy (50:00):
Yes.
Grantley Martelly (50:03):
So what are what are three things that you
would like our audience to takeaway from this discussion?
Dr. Aggy (50:08):
Uh I would like our audience to know that uh when
somebody's faced withcompassion, it drives away shame
that when we are compassionatewith others, regardless of their
condition and that uhdiscrimination also kills
people's will to live.
Grantley Martelly (50:41):
Sorry Don't be sorry, you're doing you're
doing important work that's veryheavy and you're you're saving
lives every day.
Dr. Aggy (50:54):
It's not easy to see people suffering, but it's easy
to talk about it.
When we join hands, when wetalk about it, when we speak up,
it turns when people skip tospeak up, they will be
(51:15):
misunderstood.
Am I exposing something?
We are trying to reach out.
This is our way of saying wehave a problem.
People are dying.
(51:40):
And some they died before theyeven get tested, they died
before the medication reach outto them.
So we at Gerard We are trying,we are not alone.
(52:01):
There are a lot of people doingthis, a lot of people working
towards this problem of HIV andcommunicable diseases and other
communicable diseases a lot, butwe are failing.
We are failing.
At times we fail because we donot have resources.
(52:23):
Which means for them to be ableto work at an organization like
me, they don't have anysecurity like pension and stuff
(52:46):
like that.
So they would prefer to go andwork for the government where
they are not able to travel theway ahead.
They will be working within acertain case.
So we lose a lot of experiencedpersonnel because working
(53:08):
either within the church or inprivate organizations like I do,
they feel they do not have anyshort for their future.
But when they are working forthe government, they have
pension, they have a guaranteedsalary.
So for us, when we do not havedonor funding, which means we
(53:30):
are going to cut our personnel,or we are not going to be able
to do many other things.
So those are the insecuritiesthat we have.
Grantley Martelly (53:47):
Thank you for sharing that with us and with
our listeners.
We'll be praying that Godprovides the workers, provides
us resources, provides thedonors and uh the local staff to
work with you and with yourclinic to continue to save
lives.
What is the name of yourclinic?
Dr. Aggy (54:08):
It's Jarat Papua.
Grantley Martelly (54:11):
How do you spell that?
Dr. Aggy (54:13):
J E R A T Papua.
Jarat Papua means JaringanKrijaraket Papua, the Papuan
People's Network, it uh workswith the indigenous people.
Grantley Martelly (54:28):
It means the Papua People's Network.
Dr. Aggy (54:31):
Yes.
Grantley Martelly (54:32):
And you're you're located in Papua,
Indonesia.
Dr. Aggy (54:36):
Yes, in Jaipura.
But um I'm in Jaipura, but wework in all corners of Papua
where we are needed, where wehave access, we go there.
Yes.
Grantley Martelly (54:49):
So what is the best way for people to get
in touch with you?
Is it by email or do you have awebsite or ministry contact?
Dr. Aggy (55:00):
Personally, I I would prefer to be contacted through
email because I am very muchafraid of social media because I
deal with very sensitive issuesand I wouldn't want to be
caught on the wrong side ofposting very sensitive issues.
And like I told you before,people here in Papua are very,
(55:24):
very sensitive.
And if there's one thing that Iwant to install within the
people I save is trust.
Grantley Martelly (55:35):
Maybe the best way for people to get a
hold of you maybe to send anemail to me.
Dr. Aggy (55:40):
Yes.
Grantley Martelly (55:40):
At my email address for this podcast, above
the noise24 at gmail.com, abovethe noise24 at gmail.com, and
then we can get that informationto Dr.
Ige and to her team and getback to you because we'd we
would not want to compromise thevaluable and critical work that
(56:01):
you're doing.
Dr. Aggy (56:02):
Thank you.
Grantley Martelly (56:04):
So before we close today, is there anything
else that you would like toshare with our audience?
Dr. Aggy (56:10):
Uh as emotional as I am, um we are having a lot of uh
youth, the young generation,the forgotten generation, they
are the ones that are now uhsuffering from uh AIDS and
living with HIV.
And the reason why I said theforgotten generation is because
(56:37):
when I came to Papua, maybe theywere still babies.
And nobody thought that thosebabies will grow up and want to
be adults and experience lifelike other adult people.
So we've only focused on themiddle age, and then when we
came back again, now it's the 30and below that are now highly
(57:01):
infected with HIV and we have aproblem of alcohol and drug
abuse.
So we also would like to starta shelter for rehabilitation for
alcohol and drug abuse, andalso um a youth-friendly center
for the youth so that at leastthey have a safe space where
(57:21):
they can express their feelings.
Like we talked about HIV.
If they see the HIV problemwithin their families, their
parents are HIV infected, it hassocial, emotional, economical
impact on those younggenerations.
So it is also something thatgives me sleepless nights that
(57:42):
each time as I finish this, I'mgoing to go out again and meet
them door to door.
And some of them, their parentshave already died and they are
living by themselves.
And how are they surviving?
I cannot bring every child inmy house.
But we need a safe space forthem.
So it's painful that some theydon't go to school anymore.
(58:06):
They are in the street,especially the girl child, very
vulnerable.
Just look at them, how best canwe help?
We are not okay.
They are not okay.
Grantley Martelly (58:21):
You give us much to think about, and then
you give us much to pray about,and hope one of my prayers is
that maybe the Lord will touchthe heart of people who listen
to this episode and uh move uponthem about how they can help,
how they can participate, andeven not minimizing the power of
prayer, and if all that peoplecan do is prayer for you and for
(58:44):
your team, so that you'd besafe, and that you'd have the
resources, the strength,emotional, physical, mental,
spiritual strength to continuethe ministry.
And we will prayer for thatdream of yours to build a
community center for theseforgotten youth, so they have a
place to come.
Dr. Aggy (59:03):
Yes, thank you.
Grantley Martelly (59:05):
Thank you very much for the time you spent
with us today.
Thank you very much for beingvulnerable and sharing and the
work that you're doing.
It is not a work that manypeople would want to do or many
people are cut out to do, butit's clear that God has called
you to do that work.
And I'm thankful that you'redoing it, and I'm thankful that
got the opportunity to meet you,and I'm thankful that today
(59:27):
many of my listeners will alsoget the opportunity to meet you
and see the work that you'redoing.
Thank you very much.
Remember to subscribe and leaveus a rating, which is very
important for helping onpodcasts, succeed in the podcast
remote and helping upload otherpeople.
Email us a comment at above thenoise24@ gmail.com.
(59:52):
Abovethe noise24 @email.com.
Follow us on Instagram andFacebook @abovethe noise 24.
Thank you for listening.
Please share this episode witha friend.
Welcome to Above the Noise, a podcast at
the intersection of faith, race,and reconciliation.
And I'm your host, Grant leyMartelly.
So welcome back to Above theNoise.
It's my honor today to welcomea friend that I met uh just this
(00:33):
year.
Her name is Dr.
Agnella Chingwaro, and she isuh serving in the country of
Indonesia, and her story is verypowerful.
Um, I think you're gonna loveit.
It's it's gonna be encouragingand inspiring the work that
she's doing.
Welcome, Dr.
Aggy, to our podcast.
Dr. Aggy (00:54):
Thank you.
Grantley Martelly (00:55):
So introduce yourself to our audience.
Tell us a little bit about youand your family and what you do
so that our audience can get toknow you before we get into the
work that you do and theministry that you do.
Dr. Aggy (01:07):
Thank you so much for having me today.
My name is Agnella Chengwaro.
And uh I was born and bred inZimbabwe in southern Africa, and
I'm the youngest of nine withnine siblings.
Grantley Martelly (01:21):
Are you married?
Dr. Aggy (01:22):
I am married to a Papuan Indonesian.
My husband is Papuan.
Grantley Martelly (01:27):
And how do you have any kids?
Do you have any children?
Dr. Aggy (01:29):
Yes, we do.
I'm a grandmother.
Grantley Martelly (01:32):
A grandmother, okay.
Yeah.
Dr. Aggy (01:34):
I have uh I have uh one granddaughter, Anaya.
Grantley Martelly (01:37):
Great, thank you.
So how did you get to Indonesiafrom Zimbabwe?
Dr. Aggy (01:44):
It started um during the HIV uh epidemic in in
Africa.
So we were working in thegovernment.
That's when we were asked toalso go to the churches.
And I'm a Lutheran.
Being a Lutheran, the LutheranChurch has uh a lot of hospitals
(02:05):
from where I come from inZimbabwe.
We have uh Lutheran hospitals,and then we were working with
the Lutheran World Federationdoing HIV outreach programs and
helping people living with HIV.
And then from there, uh, thatis when we started to encourage
the church board to haveinfectious diseases control
(02:30):
clinics in each and every churchfacility, church hospital.
And then from there, we startedgrowing and I started going
from one country to the other,working in the same mission with
the same organization as well,the faith-based organization.
Because my country is aChristian-dominated country, and
we have a lot of churches, andin those churches, there were a
(02:54):
lot of people infected with HIV,and there were a lot of deaths
being recorded.
So we needed to break thesilence from within the church.
So that's how I started.
Um, and then from there I wentto Botswana, and I was also
working with the EvangelicalLutheran Church in Botswana.
So that is when my my bishop bythen, Bishop Reverend Cosmos
(03:18):
Moenga the Late, when he went tothe meeting in German with the
United Evangelical Mission, isthe mission partners.
That is when they met thebishop from Papua, from the
Evangelical Church in Papua, andthey were talking about the HIV
issues in Papua and in othermission partners.
(03:39):
So when my bishop um wasretelling the story of how I
managed to handle the HIV case,cases in in the church, that is
when the bishop from Papua,Reverend Bishop Pendeta Yemi
Macrae, that is when she alsoasked if my bishop could send me
(04:01):
to Papua also and maybe helpthem with the issue.
So when my bishop came backfrom Germany, from Wuppertown,
and then he was asking me if byany chance I see myself working
in Papua Indonesia, and by thenI didn't even know where Papua
is.
So I had to Google PapuaIndonesia, and um what I saw, I
(04:25):
was like, okay, how did HIV getto this part of the world?
So I was so curious.
At first it was curiosity thatdrove me to Papua, and I was
only told it's uh it's uh 3 ATM,and for me it was okay, and
then I I signed up for that, andthat's when I came here to to
(04:48):
Papua.
I was with the uh EvangelicalChristian Church in Papua, that
is called the Gika E, meaning inIndonesia it is Greja Christian
Injil Ditana Papua.
Grantley Martelly (05:00):
Thank you for that introduction and how you
got to Papua New Guinea.
So where did you get where didyou begin your medical training?
Dr. Aggy (05:07):
Uh in 1999.
Grantley Martelly (05:11):
Where's mine?
Pardon me?
Dr. Aggy (05:15):
In Zimbabwe.
Grantley Martelly (05:16):
In Zimbabwe.
Dr. Aggy (05:20):
Yes.
Grantley Martelly (05:20):
So you became a doctor in Zimbabwe.
You were working there, andthen you came over as a as a
doctor to Indonesia.
Were you always in familypractice or were you in
infectious disease?
Dr. Aggy (05:31):
Infectious diseases.
Grantley Martelly (05:33):
Infectious diseases.
Dr. Aggy (05:35):
Yeah.
Grantley Martelly (05:36):
Tell us a little bit about your faith
journey because as you said inyour introduction, you're
working with uh Christianorganizations that brought you
to from Zimbabwe to Botswana toPapua.
And so tell us a little bitabout your faith journey.
Dr. Aggy (05:52):
Yeah.
Uh I was raised by a very, verytraditional Lutheran family.
My my parents were very, verytraditional Lutherans.
And from there, the way we wereraised was mainly, and I I used
to see my parents um helpingother people and always doing
the, you know, in Zimbabwe, inwhere I come from, in Mashona
(06:17):
Land Central, there are timeswhen we have drought, where
there's no rain at all, andthere will be shortages of food.
And my great mygreat-grandparents were farmers,
so it it it was passed on togenerations up to my father.
So they are also farmers.
They were also farmers.
And uh whenever they had foodand during the drought uh
(06:42):
period, they would share theirfood with other people.
But they would not just go anddish out the food to the
communities.
They will invite them and sharethe word of God.
They pray together.
After that, they will share thefood.
It really encouraged me also todo that.
And at times my mom would bebusy doing some other things,
(07:05):
and then I'll be helping my mygrandfather to do that, and and
my ma my my my dad will behelping him also to do that.
And during that same process,some women would bring their
malnourished children, very sickchildren, you know.
And how were we going to helpthem?
Usually they would havediarrhea, and then my
(07:27):
grandmother would say, just boilsome water and put six
teaspoons of sugar and twoteaspoons of salt for
dehydration, and then you put ina in a liter bottle and you you
give them.
So that gave that uh sproutedthe passion in me to help other
people, just by uh doing thesugar and salt solution for
(07:48):
dehydration.
So I felt very proud each timeI would go and follow up, like,
how is your baby today?
Is is your baby still havingdiarrhea?
They said, no, after givingthem the sugar and salt
solution, it just stopped andthey're doing much better.
So it it encouraged me also todo more, to wanted to do more.
So that's when my grandfathersaid, I pray that one day you'll
(08:12):
become a doctor.
And then I fulfilled mygreat-grandfather's wish.
Grantley Martelly (08:19):
That is a great legacy to be passed on to
you and to plant that seed inyou to become a doctor, the
example of your parents inserving others and finding that
simple solution to a problemthat is all over the world, you
know, the sugar and saltsolution to help children with
diarrhoea can save so manylives.
So did you ever did you everthink about becoming a
(08:41):
missionary?
Or even when you came to Papua,did you see yourself as a
missionary or you were justcoming as a doctor to serve for
a little while?
Dr. Aggy (08:51):
Not at all.
I never, I never saw myself asa missionary.
But when I was working before Icame to to Papua, that is when
I realized that if I remainwithin the government uh shell,
I would not be able to reach outto more people.
So it made me want to breakaway from being a civil servant
(09:15):
into a missionary.
Because when whenever we go tothe church facilities, you find
a lot of people they will bethere as compared to the
government facilities.
Because they knew when they goto the church facilities, that's
when they are going to get thehelp, be it with food, be it
with clothing, whatever shelter.
(09:37):
Even in during disaster times,the church will be in the
forefront, especially uh theLutheran World Federation and
other church organizations, thethe Christian council churches,
you know, they'll they'll theywill be in the forefront.
During those times, the churchhad an upper hand in gathering a
lot of people, whether theyhave problems or not.
(10:00):
So that's what that's when Imade a decision that no, I think
I should come out of this shellof working in one institution
and go on a broader um practiceworking as a as a missionary.
Grantley Martelly (10:16):
When you came to Papua, then you were you had
already made that transition tobe a missionary because you
were you started working with achurch organization back in your
home.
Dr. Aggy (10:27):
When I came to Papua, that's when I emerged myself
into becoming a missionary.
That's when I I found the realmeaning of being a missionary.
Grantley Martelly (10:37):
What did you find that that meaning to be
when you got to Papua?
Dr. Aggy (10:42):
The situation that um I've been working with in
different parts of of Africa istotally different from here.
And the approach that we usedto do in Africa is totally
different from here.
So in Papua, there are so manyaspects that we look at.
(11:03):
It's either it's emotional,it's political, you know.
So they are very sensitive.
And I would always wanted touse um the the faith approach.
And Papua is not only Papuawhere you you have the Christian
community, it's amulti-denominational community.
(11:25):
There are so many faithdenominations here, so it's very
difficult.
So it made me strengthen mypractice.
Like I'm focusing on being amissionary, and uh I'll be
working mainly on on uhdifferent uh faith
denominations.
How am I going to do this?
Because I'll be facing the theIndonesia is an Islamic state,
(11:50):
and it is Hindus, it is it is uhChristians and you know other
denominations.
So and all those denominations,they are also being faced with
HIV.
And when we talk of HIV, it isno culture, it is no language,
it is no faith, it is it is norace, no color, no language.
(12:11):
So all those that are infected,I needed to embrace them in
order to be able to tackle theproblem.
So that's when I rooted myselfinto becoming a missionary.
How do I work within theIslamic community?
How do I collaborate within theHindu?
So Papua really strengthened mymission as a as a missionary
(12:35):
here, that yes, I'm going to bea missionary.
Grantley Martelly (12:39):
So let's talk a little bit about the AIDS
epidemic and the AIDS situation,because uh that is your that is
your specialty that whereyou're working.
As we begin, give us acomparison between the the AIDS
epidemic in Africa and then whatyou found when you came to
Papua.
Was it similar, was itdifferent, and how is your work
(13:02):
either similar or different fromwhat you were doing back then
in the AIDS community?
Dr. Aggy (13:06):
Yeah.
Um thank you.
It's it's very different in thesense that um in Africa, we
when we talk of HIV, our peoplequickly understood it.
And they quickly realized thatwe were perishing.
The people were dying, and wewould speak the same language
(13:30):
and understand each other.
And they would come forward.
And of during the early days ofHIV and AIDS, there was a lot
of stigma, but when our peoplegot more education on that
issue, they quickly understoodit and they quickly changed
(13:50):
their way of living.
For example, in my own culture,when a man dies, he leaves
behind a wife.
And that woman, that wife, theymight have paid a full bride
price and they have children,and the the family from the
deceased man would not allow thewoman to go back to her own
(14:12):
village.
They would arrange for somebodyto remarry that woman.
So it went on and on and on andon.
So the moment there's aninheritance, even marriage
inheritance from my own culture,a lot of people were dying.
Because the widow will beinfected with HIV.
(14:35):
And they find a replacementfrom within the family or from
within the extended family toinherit, to remarry that woman,
so that she doesn't go away withthe wealth from the deceased.
And then within two years, thatsame man will die again.
And that same woman would wantto be a children for the new
(14:56):
husband, and that child wouldautomatically die again.
So we realized that this wasbecoming a problem, and we
addressed it, and the peopleunderstood that.
So when I came to Papua, it wasa different, it it is still a
different issue that we haveover 300 languages here in
(15:20):
Papua.
Even in Jaipura, there are alot of languages.
You go from one district to theother, there's a different
language.
So although they speakIndonesian, but they're
different languages, differentculture, different beliefs.
So it's very difficult topenetrate in those different
beliefs and different culturesas compared to Africa, where
(15:45):
they have uh they can be Shonaspeaking people with different
dialects, but they are Shonapeople.
But in Papua, they can be Papuapeople, but with different
languages, different culture,different everything.
So it it was building a verybig wall, and it is still a very
(16:10):
huge uh difference in order tobe able to tackle the HIV issue.
So the main difference is whenwe are talking of HIV in purple,
we have to have a certain typeof approach.
You can't just say, Yes, youare here, I'm testing you for
(16:35):
HIV, and because I'm suspectingyou this.
Because they they will feeloffended.
Like, why would you say I haveHIV?
Why would you want to test mefor HIV?
And then the next thing theywould some some of them would
say, I don't have HIV because Idon't have multiple sexual
partners.
(16:55):
I am sick because maybesomebody did something to me,
you know, the the black magic orsomething like that.
So in comparison to Africa,they quickly understood that.
But in Papua, we are stillworking on that.
And also, once you test forHIV, it's not like when they are
(17:17):
still very healthy and youscreen for HIV, it's difficult
also to gather them up and say,let's do this and we are going
to do the HIV testing.
But they would want to presentthemselves to the medical
facility while they are alreadysick or in AIDS condition.
So we'll always encourage themto come forward for testing
(17:40):
while they are still healthy,while while it's still just HIV,
not AIDS.
So when you talk of Africa, inmy own country today, if if
somebody feels uncertain withthe condition, he or she'll just
go to the pharmacy and buy theoral swab for HIV.
(18:02):
And she does it herself, itreacts positive.
She brings the same swab resultto the doctor, whether she
wants to go to the publichospital or to the private
hospital.
She brings it and said, Iswabbed myself and this is what
I got.
So we no longer close windowsand doors and do the counseling.
(18:24):
People just bring themselvesforward as compared to Papua.
So in Papua, it's just aone-way gate.
When you want to test for HIV,it's either you go to the public
clinic, the government-ownedclinic, or the government
hospital or any other privatehospital, that's when you you go
and have the the HIV testing.
(18:45):
Or you go to the privatelaboratory and you test for HIV.
But if you are tested for HIVfrom a private laboratory, it
means you are going to go backto that same one door that is
the government facility.
Because it's a subsidizedprogram from the government of
(19:08):
which the medication is forfree.
So once you go back there, youare going to be registered your
identity and everything.
So a lot of people here, theyfeel inferior that they've
tested for HIV and they arepositive.
And they wouldn't want to go tothe public hospital or wherever
(19:28):
they are going to be registeredwith their identity cards.
So we are facing a huge problemwith that.
They don't want to beregistered.
So there's an application,their whole country.
So once everybody's tested forHIV, they are registered into
that application.
And it's known the wholecountry that even if you go to
(19:51):
any medical facility, you wantto top up your medication, you
can just top up because you arealready registered.
So a lot of people do not wantto do that.
They don't want to beregistered.
Hence, they decide to refrainfrom treatment.
Grantley Martelly (20:07):
They don't want to be identified.
Dr. Aggy (20:09):
They don't want to be identified.
Grantley Martelly (20:12):
Let's do a clarification here.
There's two clarifications Ineed to make.
When I first began, I saidPapua New Guinea, and you're not
in Papua New Guinea, you're inPapua, Indonesia.
They're two separate countries,two separate places.
So that's my error, and I standcorrected.
You are serving in Papua,Indonesia.
Dr. Aggy (20:31):
Yes.
Grantley Martelly (20:32):
Other question is can you explain to
our audience the differencebetween HIV and AIDS?
Because you're making adistinction between the two.
From your medical perspective,what is the difference?
Dr. Aggy (20:44):
The difference is HIV is not a disease, it's just a
virus that got into somebody'sbody.
And the the function of HIV insimple terms, it ja it is there
to destroy the immune systemthat protects a human or that
helps fight infections.
(21:06):
The immune system.
And what is AIDS?
AIDS is comprised ofopportunistic infections that we
are always facing on a dailybasis, like TB, meningitis, all
these diseases have been there along time ago.
(21:28):
But because our immune systemhas been compromised by HIV, we
can no longer fight it on ourown like we used to do.
So when somebody has TB withoutHIV, they can be on treatment
and it's okay.
But if somebody has HIV andgets TB, it it becomes a
(21:51):
complication.
And also they can also havemeningitis, they can have any
other ailment of which suchailments that's what we call
AIDS.
Grantley Martelly (22:04):
Okay.
The distinction there is earlydetection, if I hear you
correctly.
And one of the battles you'refighting in the culture there is
early detection.
People don't want to be tested,they don't want to be detected
early.
If I hear you correctly, sothen by the time you get to see
them, they have already in fulldisease mode.
(22:27):
Which makes your work much moredifficult.
Dr. Aggy (22:33):
It it makes it very difficult and very expensive
considering where we are inPapua.
We are in a resource-limitedprovince.
Papua is very big, very huge,and geographically it's a
difficult to reach area.
It's very mountainous, andthere are some areas that are
very mountainous and waterloggedareas.
(22:55):
So everything that we have hereis is ordered from Jakarta or
any other other province outsidePapua.
So it's it will be very, veryexpensive to treat AIDS rather
than testing early and identifythe HIV or diagnose with HIV and
treat, put on antiretroferaltherapy before getting sick.
(23:18):
So once they get sick or oncethey become fully blown with
AIDS, the treatment is socomplicated.
And at times you try to treatsomebody who's having
meningitis, having TB, and whereonce they're having TB, the TB
becomes a multi-drug-resistantTB, because they attempts the
(23:43):
default treatment while theywere taking the first uh
category of TB.
So there are a lot of issuesthat happen.
Grantley Martelly (23:54):
So is there a difference in ages between men
and women, most of your parents,male or female, or it's evenly
distributed?
And also children, let's alsotalk about the effect on on of
airs on children.
Dr. Aggy (24:06):
Yeah.
They we have children born withHIV.
It has a huge, huge impact onthem.
Uh because when they are bornwith HIV, it means the mother,
when she was pregnant, she sheeither didn't go for HIV
screening or she didn't go to toantenatal care while she was
(24:30):
still pregnant.
So it's it's it's a WorldHealth Organization standard
that every pregnant woman getsscreened for HIV, hepatitis,
syphilis, and malaria.
But some women, because theyare living in out of reach areas
or where do not where they donot have access to medical
facilities, they would bepregnant and prefer having a
(24:53):
home bed and they are beingassisted by traditional
midwives.
And those traditional midwives,some of them they do not have
the knowledge about a womanbeing HIV positive and
transmitting the virus to thebaby, and also them being at
risk of trans of being infected.
(25:14):
So in this case, when childrenare born from HIV-positive
mothers, we usually want to givethem prophylaxis, but if they
are out of reach, we do not getin contact with them.
So now those children it'seither they don't reach the age
(25:35):
of five.
Grantley Martelly (25:38):
Early mortality.
So let's go back to the firstpart of my question.
Do you have you seen is there adifference between men and
women?
A are are pretty pretty evenlydistributed among the male and
female population.
Dr. Aggy (25:55):
It's is you know, we have uh a lot of female, you
know, it's not equallydistributed.
And a lot of women here, theyare infected with HIV.
But when we talk of HIV, wetalk of two individuals having
sexual contact.
So it's either that woman hasbeen tested for HIV and we did
(26:19):
not do the partner contactfollow-up.
Usually, especially it's amandate that when somebody tests
positive for any communicabledisease, we do the contact
tracing.
So at times they might havemultiple sexual partners and
sometimes they feel really badabout exposing themselves that
(26:42):
they had multiple sexualpartners of which they would
prefer just to identify one, orthey'll say, no, we're already
divorced, or I'm I don't haveany partner, um I'm living
alone.
So we cannot ethically wecannot push a certain
individual, say, just tell uswhom you have been in contact
with.
So gives us a huge number ofwomen with HIV, other than men.
(27:07):
Not because men are notinfected.
Men are also infected outthere, but they do not come out
in the open as women do.
Grantley Martelly (27:21):
Yes, that we we have a we have a similar
issue here in the United Stateswith men not wanting to go to
the doctor until their theirsymptoms are being expressed.
I have another podcast whichI'm thinking about also sharing
this on called Real Health BlackMen.
And the purpose of that podcastis to help men, primarily men
of color, come to grips with theneed for early detection and
(27:42):
early screening to prevent someof these diseases so that they
don't wait until they have painor their full-blown disease to
show up at the doctor.
So when I met you, a couple ofthings I want to I want to clear
up, I want to say here.
When I met you, I was in Papuawith an organization called
Mission Aviation Fellowship anddoing some work with them.
(28:04):
And you were talking about theremote places where it is, and
and sometimes it's hard forpeople in the West to understand
when you talk about remoteplaces.
And I got to see that formyself.
Papua is a large country, andsome places are only accessible
by foot or by canoe, orsometimes people are walking
(28:25):
days to get there and walkingback very remote villages, and
what Mission Aviation Fellowshipdoes, which I had an episode
with their CEO last summer, isto provide airplanes that get
people to these remote villages,people like you and teachers,
doctors, nurses, supply clinicsin these villages with medicine
(28:47):
and teachers with supplies sothat these people in remote
areas can get access to medicalfacilities.
But when we talk about medicalfacilities there too, we're not
talking about the mayor clinic.
We're talking about a clinic ina small clinic in a village
that may be serving people fromhundreds of miles around, right?
(29:09):
It's something that's hard toimagine unless you've seen it.
Dr. Aggy (29:14):
So it's very true.
Even if uh when you go to tothe remote areas, when you talk
of remote areas, we talk of uman area where uh the Cisna, the
Cisna airplanes or the Piratosairplanes, when when when when
you miss the time, like if yougo after 10, they would say we
(29:35):
cannot get there anymore becauseit's too windy.
We we risk you know having youknow a plane crash.
And at times they would dropyou somewhere, and then you have
to walk on foot.
Maybe for a person like me, Iwould walk for five days.
But you know, by God's grace,we managed.
(29:57):
There are a lot of obstaclesthat we ended up.
Encounter and this is this is atropical region.
There's a lot of rain, there'sa lot of uh rivers, flowing
rivers, not just rivers, flowingrivers, and the thick
vegetation.
So we manage, and a lot ofpeople who have who are called
(30:17):
to serve, they don't look atthat.
They just move forward.
So I'm I'm I'm proud to saythat I am one of them.
I once went to a village in thehighlands called Kurima, and
the car just parked by theriverside, and the river is
called Yetni, and you don't seethe water flowing.
(30:39):
It flows from underground, andyou just see the sand on top.
But they would say, if youmisstep, you are going to drown
in that sand.
So the people who know the way,they will lead you.
And we were following theirfootsteps and going through that
(31:01):
river Yetni.
And I managed.
Where I come from, I don't havemountains.
I've never I've never climbed amountain, but I did hear.
So then I said yes.
So this is a calling.
Grantley Martelly (31:16):
All of that, all of that just to deliver
medical care to the village.
Dr. Aggy (31:20):
No, not only to deliver medical, not only to
deliver medical care, there willbe people there.
When I first came here, Ireally wanted them to know about
HIV.
I really wanted them to knowthat there's still life after
being infected.
When we do the outreachprograms, we will do the
testing.
Maybe we'll go there for threeweeks or even a month.
(31:41):
And they will be knowing that,oh, the team is coming from the
church.
They are coming.
And the women will be waitingfor us up there.
So after doing the outreachprogram, the testing and
everything, that's when you feelgood, like yes, all this
climbing and crossing ofvalleys, it really paid.
People now know that there'sHIV.
(32:04):
People now know that theyshould test.
People now know that theyshould be on treatment.
People now know that theyshould adhere to their
medication once they are ontreatment.
Grantley Martelly (32:16):
So you're bringing you bringing hope.
Bringing hope to people.
Yes, bringing hope to people.
So one of the things you toldme about in our first
conversation is that one of thedevelopments you've done since
you've been there is you'vestarted to create, is it health
educators or people that you'retraining who can who can go out
sometimes with you or headingyou into places to help with
(32:38):
medical education?
Dr. Aggy (32:40):
Yes.
We we are still doing that.
And uh I think you know thesituation uh uh in those remote
areas here in Papua, where thereare conflict conflict regions,
conflict areas.
So a lot of uh medicalpersonnel, they have been
evacuated from those areas.
(33:01):
So we realize that now that themedical personnel have been
evacuated, they have gone backto their respective cities or
villages.
So nobody's there.
So we decided to train thecommunity healthcare workers.
So when we train them, we aretraining them so that at least
they start to educate their ownpeople and they build bridges
(33:25):
between the community and theonly surviving clinic that is
available or the hospital, thenearest hospital that is
available.
So we train them to do themalaria testing.
We also train the traditionalmidwives to do the HIV screening
for pregnant women.
We train them also to be ableto identify risk pregnancies and
(33:49):
avoid obstratic fistulasamongst women and young girls
who are pregnant.
So they are doing a reallyquite a tremendous job.
And there are some areas whereI cannot go.
But those community healthcareworkers we trained, they are
from those regions.
They speak the same language,they they have the same culture,
(34:11):
they understand each other.
So once we train them, we equipthem, and they are the ones who
are going to represent usthere.
So they are the ones who aregoing to do the job, and we are
just monitoring them.
So it's it's it's it's quite ablessing that now they have
access to the internet, we cancommunicate.
And just two days ago, one ofour traditional midwives had a
(34:34):
complication with the placenta,and she was confused what was
she going to do about it.
It has been almost three hours,and then she decided to call,
and it was a video call, andthen we managed to help her to
save the mother and the baby.
So it's something that bringshope that, you know, yeah.
Grantley Martelly (34:57):
So you you're you're doing you're doing
telemedicine in remote villagesof Indonesia using satellite
phones and computers.
Dr. Aggy (35:06):
Yes, can you imagine?
One of our um, you know, I Ithink we have almost 15 uh
traditional uh midwives, andthose 15 traditional midwives,
they cannot read, they cannotwrite, they cannot even speak
Indonesian.
They are the indigenous people.
But we manage to communicate.
(35:29):
I don't know how.
You know, they you know, thework of God.
I don't know how.
Yes.
Their Indonesian is not clear,and I cannot understand them,
they cannot understand me.
But we we we work together, weunderstand each other.
Grantley Martelly (35:46):
And you do it over the you do it over the
computer, over video call.
That is amazing.
That is amazing that technologyis being used in many positive
ways.
One of the things you we alsotalked about was the the effect
of AIDS on children, and you youyou were sharing me the story
of the two children you adoptedwith um would you mind talking
(36:08):
about that?
Dr. Aggy (36:09):
Yes, sure.
One of my daughters, I mettheir parents, her parents when
they came to the clinic for HIVcare, but unfortunately we
couldn't serve them for a longtime.
The father was on treatmentwith me for almost six months,
but he he couldn't make it.
(36:30):
And then after that, the motheralso was very sick, and the
baby was almost three months bythen, and she managed to live
for almost two months and thenshe passed on.
If I may bring you back a bit,from my practice at the clinic
where I uh the clinic that I'mrunning for HIV and AIDS care,
(36:52):
uh we have an ambulance, andnobody wants to drive HIV
positive people, even deadbodies they don't want.
So they are afraid of it.
So I was the ambulance driver,even if there's an emergence
that I would need to rush to thehospital for some procedures or
(37:12):
something else, or if there'suh uh death, I would need to
bring the dead body back to thefamily.
So it was just me and mynurses.
So we were just a team ofwomen, but still we couldn't
find a driver who would want todrive dead bodies, HIA's dead
bodies.
So they'll it's discriminatory.
(37:34):
They don't want to do that.
And so when I brought the bodyof the mother, and then I said,
I have the baby too, and therelative said, Is the baby HIV?
Then I said, Not yet.
We cannot diagnose HIV yetuntil 18 months, and then they
(37:55):
said we cannot accept the babybecause we have other babies
here.
We are afraid that baby wouldinfect other babies.
And the body also was notallowed inside the house.
So we brought the body to thegrave side, and then we brought
the baby back to the clinic.
So bringing up that child at afacility where she sees a lot of
(38:20):
people suffering, and althoughthe nurses were so loving and
everybody loved, even the otherpatients laughed so much, and
she was such a bubbly littlegirl.
And then I realized I spoke tomy husband, I said, I think the
woman in me does not allow thisbaby to be raised in such a
facility where every day shesees very sick people because at
(38:44):
our facility we do not takecare of working patients, very,
very sick, bedridden AIDS, fullyblown AIDS cases.
I didn't want her to see that.
And then we agreed that webring her to our house.
And then that's how she came.
And then she after 18 months,we did the dry blood testing for
(39:08):
HIV detection, and then yeah,she was She's now your daughter.
She's now my daughter.
Grantley Martelly (39:14):
She's now your daughter.
So you you didn't just rescueher from the hospital, you
adopted her.
Yeah, and then when I got tomeet her, that was great.
Dr. Aggy (39:23):
Yes.
And then I said, let God's willbe done.
So until now, she's in uhjunior high school.
Grantley Martelly (39:32):
Great.
I'm growing strong.
Dr. Aggy (39:34):
Yeah.
Grantley Martelly (39:34):
So what what are some of the myths about HIV
and AIS that you would like ouraudience to understand?
Dr. Aggy (39:41):
Yeah.
There there are a lot of mythsabout HIV.
And you know, a lot of peoplewould think that HIV is a case,
whereby when somebody has HIVand transmits it to the wife and
other people, they would think,yeah, it's a curse from God.
Grantley Martelly (39:57):
A curse.
Yeah.
Dr. Aggy (39:59):
Yeah.
That's what they think.
And some would think that uhHIV is transmitted through
sharing uh utensils like sharingthe same cup, the same plate,
and sharing the same clothes.
And you'd find that when uhsomebody dies of uh AIDS, they
would they have a tendency ofbanning the clothes.
(40:20):
So at times I would say tothem, just wash the clothes and
iron them, and you continue touse them.
You don't have to.
And at times when I'm doing myoutreach programs, I would ask
them, like, have you ever beeninto a department store where
you want to buy your trousers oryour dress or something else?
They said yes.
Have you ever fitted thattrousers, tried it on?
(40:43):
They said yes.
And have you ever asked theshopkeeper that has this been
tried by somebody with HIVbefore I tried?
They said no.
Then I said, So how would youknow that somebody came and
fitted it and tried it?
And you know, was that personHIV positive or not?
They said no.
Then I said, it's the same.
(41:04):
So we are getting there butslowly through education.
So, and at times they wouldthink that HIV is transmitted
through malaria bites, mosquitobites.
So they would always ask, like,since mosquitoes they bite
people, and if it bites somebodywith HIV, is it going to
(41:25):
transmit the the the to the nextperson?
And then I'll say, if that isthe case, then the whole world
would be HIV positive.
Malaria, mosquitoes, they onlytransmit parasites.
They have parasites, notviruses.
And at the same time, when amosquito bites somebody and
there's the blood, it does notspit the blood back to somebody.
(41:47):
So it just bites, so there's nomal uh HIV transmission there.
So there are a lot of mice, uh,people think that HIV uh can be
cured.
That's how they think.
Yes, we tell them that we cancure AIDS, AIDS can be cured,
AIDS can be totally, totally becured, but HIV can be
(42:08):
suppressed.
We suppress the virus throughantiretropheral therapy if taken
as prescribed.
When uh now we have um advancedtesting for for HIV monitoring
where we do the fireal loads, wedo the CD4 counts.
So once we do the CD4 count andthe CD4 count is higher, and
(42:29):
then the fire load issuppressed, and then it says the
end result for the fireal loadsays undetectable virus.
So that message of sayingundetectable virus, when it's
conveyed to a certain individualwhose understanding is limited,
they would say the nurse or thedoctor said my virus is
(42:50):
undetectable, which means myvirus is gone.
And then the next thing theydon't want to continue with
their antiretroferal therapies.
So once they stop theantiretropheral therapy, when it
comes back, it comes backforward and it's very
aggressive.
And then people would say, Youare faking us.
You are saying there's lifeafter being HIV positive.
(43:12):
If you take your medication,why is it that our son was on
HIV treatment, was onantiretropherrotherapy?
And when when he went to test,they said the virus is not
detectable.
And we stopped medication, andthen he got very sick and he
died.
Why?
So it we still have to explainagain in education again and
(43:33):
again and again.
Yes.
Grantley Martelly (43:39):
Which creates the opportunity for the virus
to come back.
Yeah.
Dr. Aggy (43:42):
To come back again.
Grantley Martelly (43:44):
So many similarities with other with
people that we talk to here aswell.
You know, people say, well, Ifeel better.
Why do I have to take mymedication?
Dr. Aggy (43:52):
And some that some they would say, I don't, they'll
bring back the medication.
Grantley Martelly (43:56):
Yeah, humanity, no matter where they
live, yeah.
So what are what are some ofthe greatest needs in your
ministry right now?
Dr. Aggy (44:03):
Some of the greatest needs in um in my ministry right
now is that uh I still want tocontinue to train the people.
Now we are having a pip uh aproblem with um internally
displaced people from conflictareas.
And while they're in thoseshelters, they are not, you
(44:27):
know, being monitored.
So there are a lot of thingsgoing there: teenage
pregnancies, circulation ofinfections.
So I still want to reach outmore to them and train some of
the active people within thosecommunities so that they do the
health awareness within theircommunities where they are
(44:48):
displaced.
So now we are having an influxof uh um people having
communicable diseases, but theydon't even know how to deal with
that.
And those areas where they areuh displaced people, it's it's
not easy to reach those places.
But we can access them.
Just like a few months ago, webrought in about 30 uh
(45:11):
participants, 15 men and 15women.
We trained them other, we do wetrain the midwives, we trained
some some to do the screeningsand stuff like that, so that
they'll be able to do the healtheducation within their
communities where they are.
So that is my major need fornow.
And at the same time, we wantto upgrade our testing
(45:35):
equipment, especially ourlaboratory, would want to
upgrade it so that at least whenwe are doing all these outreach
programs, we bring ourequipment with us so that when
we get there, we wouldn't say,Oh, we wish if we could have
brought this or if we had this,we could have helped this
person.
(45:55):
And most mostly we would havehundred plus people who are
gathered.
And if I ask them, do youreally want to know your status?
Do you really want to knowwhat's happening in you?
And then they would voluntarilysay yes.
So we'll do the HIV testing, wedo the syphilis testing, we do
the hepatitis testing, we do themalaria testing, we also screen
(46:16):
for leprosy, we screen for TB,but then we do not have portable
equipment that we could bringwith us.
So it's a major obstacle thatmost of the times I would want
to, I would see there are signsand symptoms of leprosy, but
then I would want to know morewhat type of leprosy does this
(46:38):
person have that would really,you know, make me do the do the
right decision, the treatment.
How am I going to deal with it?
I want to test the morphology,I want to investigate more.
We have portable machines, butwe cannot, we do not have that.
We have TB.
I can't just go there and say,yes, you are having signs and
(46:58):
symptoms of TB.
And then I will say, um, I'mgoing to access anti-TB drugs
for you.
It's very dangerous becausemost of the times they might be
having multi-drug-resistant TB.
So we are not doing any good,but we'll be doing more harm.
So that is the majorcomplication that we face when
we are in our outreach programs,in our in our ministry.
Grantley Martelly (47:20):
How do you get medicines and equipment for
your ministry?
Are they supplied by privateparties or supplied by the
government?
Or is medicine easily availablewhere you are?
Dr. Aggy (47:31):
Yeah.
So when we talk of HIV and TBand leprosy, those drugs, they
are only supplied by thegovernment.
So we work together with thegovernment.
Our organization works hand inhand with some uh government uh
hospitals from the areas that weare working.
(47:52):
So once we we are, for example,when we are going to a certain
district, we go to the districtmedical um uh office, and then
we tell them that we are cominghere for A, B, C, D, and then
they will tell, okay, if we havesome cases like TB and HIV and
stuff like that, we are going toreport to them as well.
(48:14):
This is what we have found, sowe'd want to have some
medication, and then they'llaccess it to us, and then we
redistribute to the people init.
So there's no organization thatcan afford to buy an retroviral
drug for the rest of a certainindividual's life.
Only the government can accessit.
(48:35):
But the government cannot godoor to door like we do.
The government does not go tothe churches like we do.
So we are also working onbehalf of the government to
reach out to the people in need.
And then we report to them,they supply us, especially with
uh TB and HIV drugs,anthropherapies and leprosy
(48:59):
drugs, they they supply us andeven the malaria drugs, at times
they supply us.
But when we talk of uh thereagents for testing, at times
they do not supply supply usfrom the organization and other
donors.
That's that's when they supportus with that, because we would
(49:20):
need um the reagents to do thetesting.
Grantley Martelly (49:23):
What about equipment?
The the the testing equipment,you said like the mobile lab and
stuff like that.
Does that come from thegovernment too, or that comes
from private donations?
Dr. Aggy (49:32):
It comes from donations.
It comes from donations.
Like I said before, we wouldwant to upgrade that so that for
now we we only have an in-houselab.
So when you have an in-houselab, when you go to the
Highlands, to those remoteareas, you need a portable
(49:53):
machinery.
Grantley Martelly (49:54):
But that and portable machines are available,
you just need people orcompanies to donate them to the
ministry.
Dr. Aggy (50:00):
Yes.
Grantley Martelly (50:03):
So what are what are three things that you
would like our audience to takeaway from this discussion?
Dr. Aggy (50:08):
Uh I would like our audience to know that uh when
somebody's faced withcompassion, it drives away shame
that when we are compassionatewith others, regardless of their
condition and that uhdiscrimination also kills
people's will to live.
Grantley Martelly (50:41):
Sorry Don't be sorry, you're doing you're
doing important work that's veryheavy and you're you're saving
lives every day.
Dr. Aggy (50:54):
It's not easy to see people suffering, but it's easy
to talk about it.
When we join hands, when wetalk about it, when we speak up,
it turns when people skip tospeak up, they will be
(51:15):
misunderstood.
Am I exposing something?
We are trying to reach out.
This is our way of saying wehave a problem.
People are dying.
(51:40):
And some they died before theyeven get tested, they died
before the medication reach outto them.
So we at Gerard We are trying,we are not alone.
(52:01):
There are a lot of people doingthis, a lot of people working
towards this problem of HIV andcommunicable diseases and other
communicable diseases a lot, butwe are failing.
We are failing.
At times we fail because we donot have resources.
(52:23):
Which means for them to be ableto work at an organization like
me, they don't have anysecurity like pension and stuff
(52:46):
like that.
So they would prefer to go andwork for the government where
they are not able to travel theway ahead.
They will be working within acertain case.
So we lose a lot of experiencedpersonnel because working
(53:08):
either within the church or inprivate organizations like I do,
they feel they do not have anyshort for their future.
But when they are working forthe government, they have
pension, they have a guaranteedsalary.
So for us, when we do not havedonor funding, which means we
(53:30):
are going to cut our personnel,or we are not going to be able
to do many other things.
So those are the insecuritiesthat we have.
Grantley Martelly (53:47):
Thank you for sharing that with us and with
our listeners.
We'll be praying that Godprovides the workers, provides
us resources, provides thedonors and uh the local staff to
work with you and with yourclinic to continue to save
lives.
What is the name of yourclinic?
Dr. Aggy (54:08):
It's Jarat Papua.
Grantley Martelly (54:11):
How do you spell that?
Dr. Aggy (54:13):
J E R A T Papua.
Jarat Papua means JaringanKrijaraket Papua, the Papuan
People's Network, it uh workswith the indigenous people.
Grantley Martelly (54:28):
It means the Papua People's Network.
Dr. Aggy (54:31):
Yes.
Grantley Martelly (54:32):
And you're you're located in Papua,
Indonesia.
Dr. Aggy (54:36):
Yes, in Jaipura.
But um I'm in Jaipura, but wework in all corners of Papua
where we are needed, where wehave access, we go there.
Yes.
Grantley Martelly (54:49):
So what is the best way for people to get
in touch with you?
Is it by email or do you have awebsite or ministry contact?
Dr. Aggy (55:00):
Personally, I I would prefer to be contacted through
email because I am very muchafraid of social media because I
deal with very sensitive issuesand I wouldn't want to be
caught on the wrong side ofposting very sensitive issues.
And like I told you before,people here in Papua are very,
(55:24):
very sensitive.
And if there's one thing that Iwant to install within the
people I save is trust.
Grantley Martelly (55:35):
Maybe the best way for people to get a
hold of you maybe to send anemail to me.
Dr. Aggy (55:40):
Yes.
Grantley Martelly (55:40):
At my email address for this podcast, above
the noise24 at gmail.com, abovethe noise24 at gmail.com, and
then we can get that informationto Dr.
Ige and to her team and getback to you because we'd we
would not want to compromise thevaluable and critical work that
(56:01):
you're doing.
Dr. Aggy (56:02):
Thank you.
Grantley Martelly (56:04):
So before we close today, is there anything
else that you would like toshare with our audience?
Dr. Aggy (56:10):
Uh as emotional as I am, um we are having a lot of uh
youth, the young generation,the forgotten generation, they
are the ones that are now uhsuffering from uh AIDS and
living with HIV.
And the reason why I said theforgotten generation is because
(56:37):
when I came to Papua, maybe theywere still babies.
And nobody thought that thosebabies will grow up and want to
be adults and experience lifelike other adult people.
So we've only focused on themiddle age, and then when we
came back again, now it's the 30and below that are now highly
(57:01):
infected with HIV and we have aproblem of alcohol and drug
abuse.
So we also would like to starta shelter for rehabilitation for
alcohol and drug abuse, andalso um a youth-friendly center
for the youth so that at leastthey have a safe space where
(57:21):
they can express their feelings.
Like we talked about HIV.
If they see the HIV problemwithin their families, their
parents are HIV infected, it hassocial, emotional, economical
impact on those younggenerations.
So it is also something thatgives me sleepless nights that
(57:42):
each time as I finish this, I'mgoing to go out again and meet
them door to door.
And some of them, their parentshave already died and they are
living by themselves.
And how are they surviving?
I cannot bring every child inmy house.
But we need a safe space forthem.
So it's painful that some theydon't go to school anymore.
(58:06):
They are in the street,especially the girl child, very
vulnerable.
Just look at them, how best canwe help?
We are not okay.
They are not okay.
Grantley Martelly (58:21):
You give us much to think about, and then
you give us much to pray about,and hope one of my prayers is
that maybe the Lord will touchthe heart of people who listen
to this episode and uh move uponthem about how they can help,
how they can participate, andeven not minimizing the power of
prayer, and if all that peoplecan do is prayer for you and for
(58:44):
your team, so that you'd besafe, and that you'd have the
resources, the strength,emotional, physical, mental,
spiritual strength to continuethe ministry.
And we will prayer for thatdream of yours to build a
community center for theseforgotten youth, so they have a
place to come.
Dr. Aggy (59:03):
Yes, thank you.
Grantley Martelly (59:05):
Thank you very much for the time you spent
with us today.
Thank you very much for beingvulnerable and sharing and the
work that you're doing.
It is not a work that manypeople would want to do or many
people are cut out to do, butit's clear that God has called
you to do that work.
And I'm thankful that you'redoing it, and I'm thankful that
got the opportunity to meet you,and I'm thankful that today
(59:27):
many of my listeners will alsoget the opportunity to meet you
and see the work that you'redoing.
Thank you very much.
Remember to subscribe and leaveus a rating, which is very
important for helping onpodcasts, succeed in the podcast
remote and helping upload otherpeople.
Email us a comment at above thenoise24@ gmail.com.
(59:52):
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