Episode 64: Raising Black Boys into Exceptional Men

Episode Transcript
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Terry White (00:00):
A parent showing up in a school setting,
semi-regular, whatever canimprove that grade point average
a bit, because them teachersare a little more dialed in,
because they but they are dialedin for all the kids because
you're in there, you're watchingor you're helping out for your
child, but everybody isbenefiting from the fact that

(00:21):
there's somebody in the room,and I think it's just really
important for men especiallyblack boys, to see black men.

Grantley Martelly (00:28):
One of the things that I had that I noticed
was my father drank a lot.
I called him a functionalalcoholic.
He could drink and he couldstill go to work or whatever.
So I'm drunk a few times, butthat was pretty common in the
Caribbean.
Setting, you know, Fridaynights you get off work, you
don't come home straight.
You setting, you know, Fridaynights you get off work, you
don't come home straight.
You stop by the, what you guyscall a bar.

(00:50):
We call it a rum shop.
So we lost a beautiful homebecause of alcohol.
So welcome, brothers.
This has been a long time sincewe've been talking about
getting together and having thisdiscussion together.
The topic for today is raisingblack boys, or raising black
boys into black men.

(01:11):
And it's something that we'vebeen wanting to do for a long
time, and there's many reasonsthat we could talk about this
and we're going to get into it,but one of the obvious reasons
is somebody's going to say well,you know why?
Raising black boys, and notjust raising black, raising all
boys?
The first part of that is thatwe're all black, we all have

(01:31):
boys, so for us for us it's apretty obvious topic, right?
But there's some other thingsmore a little bit deeper than
that too, than just the factthat who we are, that we are,
we're all black, but there'ssome unique things in that we
believe in raising black youngmen into men that we think is

(01:52):
important in us for us to spendsome time talking about.
So we're just talking about inthe kitchen this, literally
around the kitchen table this isthe kitchen club cabinet of
terry and Deshaun and Andre.
So let's begin with someintroductions.
We start with you, andre, andthen work our way in.

(02:13):
Tell us who you are, tell us alittle bit about your family, so
that we can get grounded andget started.

Dr. Andre Sims (02:18):
Absolutely so.
Andre Sims, married to KathySims 35 years.
Next month, will be 36 years.
Our son turns 33 next month andwe only have the one son.
We have two kids, son anddaughter, but we have the one
son, I think.
First of all, I would like toidentify the chronology of those

(02:39):
numbers.
I've been married 35.
My son is 33.
I've been married 35.
My son is 33.
When you talk about black menand their boys, sometimes
there's an assumption that therewas a shotgun wedding or
necessity, or whatever the casemight be.
This was a planned pregnancyafter marriage that's where I

(03:02):
want to start and my parents.
I worked together 43 yearsbefore my father passed.
My parents were never divorced.
I grew up with a father in thehome that was my biological
father.
So that's part of my familyhistory.
And then I think the last thingI'll say as an introduction is
that my father graduated highschool at 16 in Detroit and went

(03:29):
to the armed services at 18, tothe Air Force, and they used to
have GI families at that time.
And so the host family, theSauvets, was the family that my
father went to on the weekends,and he told them he wanted to
learn the language.
We were just having aconversation about Terry's

(03:50):
daughter learning Japanese, andso the Sauvets at that point
were four generations ofphysicians and they told him
every time you come you're notallowed to speak English.
So my father learned thelanguage the first year of his
four years in Europe and cameback to Michigan and got
accepted to Michigan State andknew he only had four years of

(04:12):
the GI Bill.
So he finished his four-yearundergrad in three and his
two-year master's in one.
So that's the kind of father asa black boy for myself, the
model I had coming into myadulthood.

Thank you.

De'Sean Quinn (04:30):
Deshaun.
So I'm Deshaun Quinn.
I like where you started.
September it'll be 20 yearsmarried to Nicole Quinn and it's
funny that I think about it myparents got divorced right
before their 20th.
I came from a home of four boysand when my parents got

(04:51):
divorced because my father wasin the home up until I was 15, I
would say that that's probablyone of the most critical times.
A little bit of history as well.
Times a little bit of historyas well.
Um.
My mother, um brenda quinn um,was brought to seattle by her

(05:13):
father, who was in the militaryum.
Once he got out, he went backto john's island, south carolina
, picked her up and raised her.

Um, uh by his own.

And that is a legacy.
So when the four of us were inthe home, my mother was a
disciplinarian, serious, but shekept us together.
Four boys, and now I have two,15 and 10.
Still learning but loving everyday.

Terry, my name is Terry White and I'm going to
take us to another side of thecoin and I like how you started
as well.
So I will say that I am marriedto the beautiful Danae White
and we have been together for 26years.
I have been divorced andremarried.

(06:11):
Fortunately, I figured it outand that remarry was to the same
woman.
We have five kids.
Two are boys, three are boys.
I say three and a half becauseI helped raise my nephew, who
found his way to my house quitea bit.
Quite often I did not know myfather growing up and it turned

(06:36):
out the father that I thoughtwas my father wasn't, but my
father was in the military.
But my father was in themilitary.
Surprisingly, my mom ended uphere in the state of Washington
following her sister who wasmarried to a man who was in the
military, so that militarymigration is real.

(06:58):
And I would say this I met myfather, my biological father, at
56, when I found out he was inthe military.
He didn't know I existed untilI showed up.
I learned a lot from himhistorically about where I come
from, which is why I sought himout.
I wanted to be able to tell mykids where they came from.
But not having that fatherfigure in your life, you search

(07:23):
out and try to find folks whoare you, who you perceive are
doing the things that you wantto be about, and you start to
mimic them.
But you also learn how to pickand choose.
I'm going to do that.
I'm not going to do that.
This is what I'll do with myboys and I think it was
important, from where I camefrom, to acknowledge to my kids

(07:44):
that I don't have a blueprint,so that please give me some
grace as I go through this, I'mgoing to make some mistakes,
some a lot sometimes.
And but.
But the goal here is for you toend up doing this a little
better than even I did, and thatI do it better than the
absentee father that I had.

Thank you, terry.
I'm Grant Lee, the host of thispodcast.
I grew up in a home with fivesisters and two brothers.
My parents were not married.
Actually, we were divided theeight of us between three

(08:27):
different fathers, and I'm theseven of eight, so me and my
younger sister the last two aremy father and he was around some
of the times and not all of thetime, and it wasn't always a
most pleasant experience.
I really idolized my fathergrowing up, even though he was

(08:50):
not looking back at it notreally a good example, but, like
you said, you know, looking forthat father figure and looking
for that person that you hopewill be there for you and give
you direction, and he reallywasn't there most of the time.
I also noted in my communitythat it was pretty common for

(09:11):
many homes not to have fathersin them, or fathers very often,
so a lot of women raising boysand girls and doing an excellent
job.
My mother raised us very well.
I wouldn't complain about that.
And then, even when we went tochurch, the majority of the
people at church were women, andthere were some men there who

(09:34):
were married as well, but themajority were women, and that's
where I found, first of all, menwho were willing to take me on
and teach me things was atchurch, and then we had some
teachers at school who were maleteachers and obviously they
knew the situations where wecame from, and some of them took

(09:55):
interest in us and tried toteach us things that they
thought we needed to know, orthey would challenge us into
doing things and not doingthings.
That's all we needed to know.
They would challenge us intodoing things and not doing
things.
But I think you know, for me, Ihad a fortunate opportunity at
the age of 17 to meet agentleman from the United States
who was passing throughBarbados on his way to another

(10:16):
island to see his daughter, andhe challenged me to attend
university in the United Statesand he became to me eventually
what I consider to be my dad.
So I consider him to be my dad.
I have a biological father, butI have a father who taught me

(10:38):
what it was to be a man, astranger that I met at age 19.
A stranger that I met at age 19.
He became the one that thenbegan to instill in me those
godly principles and how to liveand how to behave and things to
do and not to do, and thatchallenged me.
Even when we were havingchallenges in our marriage, he

(11:00):
would intervene.
So that's just the beginninghere.
We don't have to get into it.
But the thing about us, then,is not only were we brought up
in different homes, but we allhave sons, right?
I have one son, ryan, who wasin the Air Force.
Tamina and I have been marriedfor 38 years.
In two weeks, june 9th, will be38 years.

(11:23):
All right, so let's talk abouta couple of things.
What are some of the challengesthat we face in our society
today that make it reallyimportant for this topic to be
discussed?
About raising black boys intoblack men, I think you touched
on some of them already, butlet's sort of delve into them a
little bit more.
What are some of the challenges?

(11:45):
Who wants to go first?

If I can jump in, because hopefully I don't get
too deep but I didn't talk alittle bit about.
Like my dad, my dad was a BlackPanther.
Yes, he married my mom when shewas 16 and he was 18.
Married my mom when she was 16and he was 18.
He raised us.

(12:11):
He was a strong personality andone we call old school right,
and, I think at a younger age,just kind of quick to anger.
He would go to work, be goneall day, maybe all night, but

(12:34):
he'd always say he'd get up andgo to work, he'd be there for
sports.
I mean, I really looked up tomy dad and there were things
legacy-wise I can tell that heinherited from his father, um,
and not unlike your story, he hemet his dad, you know, uh, when

(12:58):
he was an adult and actuallyhis name isn't quinn, it's
jordan, and his father didn'twant anything to do with him.
He was.
He had anger issues and so whenyou think about and I'll just be
real clear here like one of thethings, that me and my three
brothers did, is how are wegoing to raise our kids when we

(13:20):
have kids and one of the thingsthat we remembered was in those
instances, and there were plenty.
When we have kids, and one ofthe things that we remembered
was in those instances, andthere were plenty you can never
forget how you felt.
You wanted a protector,Somebody that you look up to,

(13:40):
and you ask yourself thequestion if he loved me, then
why does he allow his anger toget to a place I'm going
somewhere with this and I'vealways had a good relationship,
but we could have been a lotcloser.
I'm sure I picked up all hishealth habits high blood

(14:03):
pressure, but also it's kind ofdue to the anger and it was
funny a couple years ago, whichis amazing.
I have a good relationship withmy father, I love him, I love
him, I honor him as much as Ican.
I got to thank him andacknowledge and forgive him for

(14:26):
his survival behaviors and youlearn, like generationally, the
example he saw.
Maybe he was just replicatingthat, but then, um, my father
went from um graduating garfield, going to the University of
Washington, becoming the firstAfrican-American cameraman at

(14:47):
Cairo, highest-rankingAfrican-American in the
insurance business, and I sayall that not I mean I'm proud of
it, but the whole point is thepressures of being the first or
the one in the room and thatmaybe that gets internalized and
brought home and being therecipient of that, um, I wanted

(15:12):
to break some generationalcurses by one showing my
children how to deal with theiranger.
Um to um, living a healthierlifestyle, communicating,
because that's anothergenerational thing is you don't

(15:33):
have to be tough.
We need wellness, and when wehave struggles, let's talk about
them, and so in some ways Ialso thank my father for that as
well.
And I remember for a while Iwas pretty upset when they got
divorced and he distancedhimself.
And then I went away toMorehouse and I just remember

(15:58):
really thinking about, like, whyisn't he here, why isn't you
know?
But there there are reasons.
But it wasn't until I forgavehim for the situation.
Did I?
Did I actually get to connectwith him and talk to him and

(16:18):
learn even more of the historyabout our family and his
experiences?
And then I'll close with thisit's funny when you talk about
forgiveness and grace, about ourfamily and his experiences.
And then I'll close with thisit's funny when you talk about
forgiveness and grace.
Remember, I told you about myfather not really knowing his
father.
He called me and my brothersbecause his father had passed in

(16:42):
Portland and this was kind ofthe first time he said hey,
regardless of what's going on,can we all go down there?
Can you support me?
So we go to the funeral?
And his family said we don'trecognize y'all in the family.

(17:04):
You're not his son and it was atime to kind of bond on our
connection and kind of renew ourlove and respect for one
another and then also justreflect on his experience
because his father was never inthe home Again, like really
focusing on generational thingsthat we want to change and how

(17:27):
that ties to Raising Boys.
I'm very intentional about thatprocess and again a lot of it's
coming from those experiencesof wanting somebody to talk to
when I was in high school or mysenior year or picking colleges
or you know, and that support.
I had to kind of find it withthe broader family that was

(17:48):
around me and kind of figure itout.
Like you all said, it's likeyou kind of.
We have this extended familythat come in and help.
But again I go back to thatforgiving him for survival
behaviors.
That moment I mean he cried andthanked me in that moment I'm
glad he did it.
He perceived it well, but itwas so it was.

(18:11):
It was a bonding.
It was another bonding momentfor us and and we are, we are as
close as we can be.
Um, he knows he's always therefor me.
If I need something he'll bethere.
Um, but I'm so proud of, likehis legacy.
So sorry to go on, but I meanit's kind of a.

It's one of those things I hold on to I think you
said something that I think Ipick up on is this whole like I
tell my boys that not having ablueprint and how I'm going to
try to figure this out with youand I need you to communicate

(18:52):
with me.
Well, that hurt, that didn'tfeel good.
But I love how you came in andapologized and we moved on, and
I love how you show love afterthe moment, like it's still OK.
But something you said and youkind of allude to without even
getting to is this whole thingof your father did better than
his father did for you even inthe struggle.

(19:13):
That's right, and, whether hesaid it to you or not, his
expectation for you to be betterand do better.
I mean we kind of want that.
I think it's ironic that allthese athletes out here are
always talking about how theywere better than the generation
before them, but as parents,they always want their kids to
be better to do better in allthose areas the contradiction is

(19:37):
something.
But I think you said it.
We all have been saying thething I look at in terms of
finding father figures, andespecially for black boys who
have to, who are I mean, theworld is biased anyway and how
it looks at, how we look at eachother across the spectrum, but

(19:58):
how folks look at black boysstarted from a place of you're
just a ch, a chattel, that'swhat you are.
You do things for me and Idon't pay you.
Uh, feed you so that you canstay healthy enough to do more
things for me.
Uh, and then, having that to,how does that evolve into a

(20:19):
place where you are looked at asvaluable, respected,
trustworthy, productive,professional, and that's, I
think, the things we're alwaystrying to figure out how to work
on.
And when you come from ageneration where they separated

(20:40):
us, they took you from yourchildren.
You didn't get the chance tofigure out how to have a bond to
, let alone then try to figureout how to take care of a home
without these tools that otherfolks had growing up to, then
trying to pass that on to thenext generation to do it even a
little, just a little bit betterand hope that that keeps going.

(21:03):
And I think that's the biggestthing to me was I don't have a
father figure that I look at andgo, this is the thing I cherish
, or whatever, and it was socommon that I never missed it.
I just didn't even what I'mmissing a dad, and it was never
there for me.
So, that wasn't the reason thatspurred me on, but how I grew up

(21:25):
and how I was treated and how Iwas viewed trusted or not
trusted, depending on what myabilities were those were things
that I was really trying tomake sure I passed on to my kids
.
You're going to be looked at acertain way.
You're going to be judgedbefore you walk in the room.
You need to show up a certainway.

I know you kind of alluded to some of this.

Grant Lee is how you walk into a place, how you
sit up front, how you raise yourhand, how you engage in
conversations is going to matterfor you, let alone how you show
up when the police car pulls.
Yeah, and make sure that musicand that sound goes down quickly
.
Get your hands where you can seethem.
But that's all the stuff thatyou hope and pray that it gets

(22:07):
easier and easier as thegenerations go.
And I think it is in a lot ofways, but there's so much more
to this that we were behind on.
But I love the spectrum ofwhere we are on that and how you
can see the hope of what we canall get to as a, as a community
of black folks, of black men.

(22:29):
There's a place to go and Ithink that's the thing I try to
to pass to even you know, beyondmy boys, I have my boys who are
now becoming mentors to otherkids and to show them what's
possible.
If you do these things, that'sbecoming the real thing is this
I have this group that I get tohang out with beyond even you

(22:54):
all, that I'm so proud of, thatI get to show other kids who
look like us and say this iswhat you can be.
And it's beyond that wholething where King County talks
about the opportunity to thrivewhich is more than survive
Thrive.

Thrive is not .

You know, it's more than just.

I ate Just barely getting along, a little
bit more than just barelygetting along.

You're supposed to enjoy life, so how we get our
kids to that place so it'scommonplace and it's not an
anomaly.
I think is the biggest thingthat I caught on to was hey he's
saying something I need to hear, or he's doing something I need
to do for myself and for myfamily and for their families,

(23:42):
right.

Andrea, anything to add?

You know, again just dealing with the spectrum
of kind of.
You know the dynamic of thefour of us and our childhood.
So I think one thing I pickedup on what Terry was saying is
you know this 10 and 2 o'clockis what Deshaun said.
And what does it mean to beblack and to be pulled over?
When I moved federal way, theAfrican-American population was

(24:09):
7%.
The chief of police is a Koreanbeliever, andy Wong, and he's
just a very real guy.
He's just a very, verystraightforward type type of
person, and so he would providethe statistics on traffic stops,
and the traffic stops ofafrican-americans in federal way

(24:32):
at that time was 31, but theymade up seven percent of the
population.
Yeah, and I was saying what,how do we explain this?
And so then he came up withthis chief of police advisory
council that had people of coloron it as a way to address the

(24:56):
facts.
This is not fiction.
This is not people of colorjust throwing out information
that has not been substantiated.
This is coming from the policethemselves.
So I just remember, growing up,my father explaining to me what

(25:18):
it meant for him to have to comeup to the school because of my
behavior him to have to come upto the school because of my
behavior and that he was notopposed to coming to the school.
But his favorite phrase don'thave me coming up there being
loud and wrong.
If you call me, you better haveyour ducks in a row, you, you,

(25:41):
I better know the truth, thewhole truth and nothing.
But don't let nobody tell me,surprise me with something you
didn't tell me before I leftwork and came to your school.
But recently I had a, a highschool friend of mine, pass away
um and and we were, we were, wewere really close, donnell

(26:02):
myself, and we were really close, and so it was an unexpected
heart attack kind of thing.
So I flew back to Chicago aboutI guess it's been about seven
months ago now.
So a lot of the high school crewcame through.
I've been out of high school, Ihate to say it 40 years, so

(26:24):
some of those guys I haven'tseen in literally in decades.
And one of the common themes atthe repass after the
celebration of life was dude.
I always admired the fact thatyour father, when he came to the
school, it wasn't just aboutyou, it was about every black
boy in the school right, andmost of my friends didn't have a

(26:46):
father in the home.
Many knew of their fathers butdidn't have relationships with
their fathers, and so it wasalways a big deal when dr sims
came to the school because he hewas coming and something was
going to get worked out and itwas going to help all the black
males, that's right, you know my, my PE teacher, and I'll pass

(27:10):
the mic.
My PE teacher, mr Bequette,decided that instead of calling
him Mr Bequette, I needed tocall him sir, and I communicated
that my father doesn't requireme to call him sir, but I am
required to call you with atitle.
So I choose Mr Perquet, and hekicked me out of class and I

(27:33):
circled back about 10 minuteslater and said I just want to be
clear that I called you by atitle out of respect and because
I didn't say sir, you kicked meout of class.
Blah, blah, blah, blah.
I didn't say sir, you kicked meout of class.
Blah, blah, blah blah.
I don't care who you are so Iwent to the pay phone, called my
dad and by the time he got tothe office, all 14 black males

(27:58):
in my PE class were in theoffice 14 of us, because he was
a requirement of all of us butof those 14, I was the only one
that had a father I could call.
I like that.
I grew up watching my dad standfor black boys not just his son
and it taught me that's how Ineed to live my life, not just

(28:21):
for the one that biologicallybelongs to me, but the ones in
the community, the neighborhood,the church and so on and so
forth.

I think that's really important is you're
raising more than just yours.
Yes At that point, for sure Iknow, when my middle son,
kendall, was in about the sixthgrade, I was coaching his
football team and I used to showup at the school quite a bit
and he would be like, why areyou always in here?

(28:48):
and yeah, and it was about itwas about more than him, but I
remember the you know he.
He was taking care of business.
He would.
He would come to the car and go.
Okay, before you go in there, Ihave a a, b on this, but I've
already talked to the teacher.
She missed a piece.
It's an A.
It's going to be correctedtomorrow, right, right, so you

(29:10):
don't have to go in and do allthat stuff you did, just weigh
that out.
I'll show you the A tomorrowand I had explained to them half
the time I'm in there.
It's not for you, it's for theother kids that are on your team
.
And the same point I'm makingthere was because half of them
don't have somebody to show upfor them.

(29:31):
Even the ones who have mothersand fathers, because of the
predicament they're in in termsof their work, they're not
really allowed to go.
I remember my mom saying when Icome to your school, I'm not
making money, they're not givingme some type of grace thing.
So she was more like don't letme have to come up here at all.
I'm losing money.

(29:52):
Can you listen to that Right,right.
But the thing is for all of us,and we used to joke about this,
but there's some truth in thefact that a parent showing up in
a school setting semi-regular,whatever can improve that grade
point average a bit, becausethem teachers are a little more
dialed in because they see youare, but they are dialed in for

(30:13):
all the kids because you're inthere, right, you're watching or
you're helping out for yourchild, but everybody is
benefiting from the fact thatthere's somebody in the room and
I think it's just reallyimportant for men, especially
black boys, to see black menAbsolutely In those types of
settings you get to aspire tosomething.

(30:34):
That's what I want to do.
That's what I want to be, Iwant to give back like that and
you start to see that playitself out over and over.
That stuff matters a lot.

Yeah, especially when you grow up in
communities where most of thehomes don't have a father in
them, right?
Because as the black boys aregrowing up, we're growing up
you're not seeing that fatherfigure, you're not having that
father figure there, right?
So then, who stands in for youand who stands in the community
for you?
You know you guys talked about,you know, one of the challenges

(31:09):
when you raising your sons.
You know the things that yousaid you didn't want to do as
fathers, right, and I had mylist too you know things I
didn't want to do as fathers.
I wanted one of my son to growup in a home with both parents,
you know, to do good in school.
You know my mother alwaysinsisted that we did good in

(31:29):
school.
I mean, it was I call my motherthe benevolent dictator, right?
You guys probably identify withthat right.
She instilled value, sheinstilled purpose, she instilled
everything in you, but sheexpected you to do what you were
supposed to do right, which isto go to school.
And I remember when I was 16, Itold my mother I wanted to quit

(31:52):
school because I was just angry.
I didn't want to go to school.
And now she said while you livein this house, you will do what
I tell you to do and your jobright now is to finish school.
So end the discussion.
Right, you know, but you needthat right.

(32:12):
In their typical home, if youhad a father, the father would
have been having that discussion, right, but she had to do that
discussion.
But one of the things that I hadin my that I noticed was my
father drank a lot.
I called him a functionalalcoholic.
He could drink and he couldstill go to work or whatever.
So I'm drunk a few times, butthat was pretty common in our in

(32:32):
the Caribbean setting.
You know, friday nights you getoff work, you don't come home
straight.
You stop by the what you guyscall a bar, we call it a rum
shop in the neighborhood and allthe fellas are hanging out
there and they're playingdominoes and some of them are
spending the money theyshouldn't be spending.
Some of them are doing whatever.
But you know they drank a lotand and uh, listened to cricket

(32:54):
and did all this stuff.
And he was also a womanizer.
You know and I'm not degradingmy father, these are things that
I've said to his face, right,and I also said them in his
eulogy and his wife, she thankedme.
I said can I say these things?
She said, yeah, it is what itis, but he changed in his latter
years, coming into his latteryears before he passed away.

(33:18):
He changed a lot but we weren'taround.
So one of the things that I sawwas I didn't want to see.
I saw how alcohol took away anearly everything that people
work so hard to accomplish.
So we lost a beautiful homebecause of alcohol.
I saw him lost nearlyeverything and I saw my uncles

(33:42):
lose and lose and lose and lose.
So I made the decision that I'mnot going to be a drinker, an
alcoholic, and people ask me alot you know, why don't you
drink or whatever?
I don't drink for a number ofreasons.
One of them is my faith.
But I mean I have a glass ofwine periodically and stuff, but

(34:04):
I'm talking about like theseguys could drink a bottle of rum
.
Like fish.
Without chisels right.
This is serious drinking right,and I tell them I don't do that,
not because I can't do it,because my father introduced me
to alcohol when I was about nineyears old.

(34:25):
I do it because I don't do itbecause I see what it can do
when it begins to rule your life, and I taught that to my
children as well.
I think we all have that listof things that we say that we
don't want to do because of whatwe saw with our fathers.

(34:48):
So that was one of the thingson my list, and then the other
thing was not to come to the endof my life and have lost
everything that I worked for.

Pass something on.

Yeah, pass something on to your family.

I think legacy is important and coming from places
where that's not common hasn'tbeen common historically for us
folks who look like us, alwaysstarting over because of a death
.
That's right we have to move.
We don't have oh, there wasnothing.
We have to try another way now,and those are the kind of

(35:30):
things you learn from anotherway now.
And those are the kind of thingsyou learn from I know.
You know my mom married a manwho, for a few years, was my
stepfather and I could tell hewas trying, but he also drank a
lot.
He's a good man when he wasn'tdrinking, Unfortunately, he
drank a lot.
You could see him try.

(35:52):
You could see that he wasprobably doing better than he
had seen before.
Uh, but the lessons he wasteaching me was that same one
you got was uh, maybe I need tostay away from this bottle stuff
, um, because you seem to be acompletely different person.
Uh, when you're doing that andyou do that a lot.

(36:13):
Now the other thing for me wasnot knowing the biological
makeup of my father and being alittle guy.
Back in the day I was trying tofigure out how to get to
college and my mom didn't havethe money, so I was intent on
not doing drugs, smoking.
I got to be just as fast as Ican possibly be and I need to

(36:37):
top out at the height I'msupposed to potentially get to.
If that stuff is going to messthat up.
I can't afford to do thatbecause no one's paying.
I've got to get some help.
So for me it was more of the ifI'm going to get to the place
where I can be a giver, a helper, a contributor.

(36:58):
These are some of the things Ijust can't do because I don't
know if I'm addicted.
If you're prone to that?

yeah, If I try it and it gets me, I'm done
it and it gets me.

I'm done.
So a lot of that was literallythe I got to get to.
At least I hope 5'11", I'm 5'3"and I'm tied with the girl down
the hall.
There's the shortest people inthe fifth grade.
Hey, so some of that you'rejust seeing the well, that could

(37:35):
deter me.
This might help me.
So I'm going to try to do thosethings, and then those are the
things I try to pass on.
The irony is that my sonKendall he hasn't had a drink
and he's paying attention to thewhole he said well, if you
don't know, if you're dead, wellthen how do I know?
Because you didn't do any ofthese things, I don't need to be

(37:56):
going down those paths.

Because what if there is in us?

They're listening, even when you don't think
they're listening to what you doand they're watching which is a
good thing.
If you get up going, I'm goingto do things in a way that would
never embarrass my family.
Yeah, Terry White did that.
Mother White don't have to worryabout.
He did do that, not he did what.

(38:20):
That's right.

You're trying to make sure that's a different
question, yeah.

Tell my oldest boy, nico, when he's going on
hanging out with his friends Nowif you guys are going to be
doing anything you're notsupposed to be doing, make sure
you use a different last namethan the one I gave you, wow.
I don't want to read about that,right, I don't want to see
about that.
You know, my mom used to be likeI'm not coming to, I've never

(38:47):
been to the jail and I'm nevergoing.
If you go to jail, you use thatphone call on someone else
because I'm not coming.

Wow, yeah.
So we talk about showing up inpublic, we talk about showing up
in schools, we talk a littlebit about law enforcement.
So let's talk a little bitabout the value of education.
How do we see the value ofeducation changing the
trajectory of life for ourchildren?

I mean it's significant right.
You know, to me I was thesecond oldest, so second born
middle child.
My father was the first in hisfamily to graduate from college.
I was second and it wasn'twithout the challenges, but I

(39:41):
knew that that was my path toopportunity.
But what I didn't know is whatyou know it was also a path to
understanding and loving mycommunity as well, because I was
able to go away to school, toMorehouse College, you know.
and they have this thing wherewhen you get there as a freshman
, they say look away to school,to Morehouse College, you know.
And they have this thing wherewhen you get there as a freshman
, they say look to your right,look to your left, that person's
not going to be there.
And I think a part of thereason why they say that is you

(40:03):
have this precious opportunityand respect it.
But also you have thisresponsibility that if you're
here and you made it, you got toget back.
And then the kind of the powerof walking the same steps as Dr
Martin Luther King, it doessomething and you go into

(40:24):
buildings where these names thatyou haven't heard growing up in
the Pacific Northwest, buteverybody else seems to know it
in the community and maybe it'simportant to say like we have a
legacy of intellect right andthat's what I tell my boys.
We have a legacy of intellect.
Just because, um, maybe theimages that you see um

(40:48):
contradict that.
Uh, I think I heard michaelbennett.
Oh man, I thought it was prettypowerful, um I got to meet
michael bennett and and he kindof described himself as I'm
proud of being the descendantsof slaves because we made it, we
here, uh.
But to go back to the topic ofeducation, like a lot of the

(41:10):
well black colleges were foundedon that, but that was to me, my
aha moment.
No playing around, even thoughyou kind of the second, you got
to take this seriously.
And then I thought about mybrothers who were back at home
and I had two younger ones and Iwanted them to have the same

(41:32):
opportunity and see the thingsthat I saw because I I showed
back up in Washington justdifferent, and it's also about
the power of who you have aroundyou.
Um, I saw a legacy of, uh, thebenefits of education and
intellect and and that's how youget generational wealth as well

(41:53):
, and that's how you getgenerational wealth as well.
But let me stay on topic,because I think we were all
talking about showing up atschool.
My wife and I we made thecommitment we was going to have
kids.
We're going to show up toeverything and I think the way I
remember it is I want to makesure.
Well, my dad did this for me.

(42:14):
But the reason why we do it ismy son has a name, he comes from
a family and we're going toalways be here and show up and
our expectations are highexpectations for them.
And so, whatever you need,please call us and we will
support you.
And we're going to be clear,we're going to be knowing every
component of what they'relearning.
And we're going to be clear,we're going to be knowing every

(42:35):
component of what they'relearning and we're going to
reinforce it.
I guess I'll I'll educationside.
My grandfather, johns Island,south Carolina, leveraged his
military service to get aneducation, you know, with their

(42:57):
version or the African-Americanversion, of the GI Bill.
So he was able to get acontinue his education and found
the first heroin treatmentfacility in the area,
therapeutic health services, andhe used that actually to

(43:21):
connect with the black community, help the black community and
from that just the connectionsthat he made.
You know and to know.
He kind of did that after hisadulthood, but he knew that that
was his path and to the day hedied he was an executive of a

(43:42):
hospital.
But he did it late in life.
I think he was over 30 when hewent back to school and I always
tell my kids the story aboutinvesting in your education.

You have options .

When you do that, you have no options.
If you don't have no education,you have limited options.
And the way this society isbuilt, you have less than your
fellow person that is anAfrican-American.
So I just wanted to know thepower of education.

I think it goes to the 7% 30% conundrum.
Yes.
And what happens to uneducatedblack boys?
Same type of thing, yeah.
And while it hurts to know thatyou might have to work harder
to get your education or to getmore of it, just to keep your

(44:38):
spot or to rise.
It's kind of a thing you, youshare right it's the you.
This might hurt a little bit,but you're gonna have to do a
little more than maybe yourneighbor, yeah I mean just the
fact that we and it's not fairyou're right.
I acknowledge that, uh, and a, amentor of mine, would say to me

(45:00):
when I said man, how do I, howdo I move up in this
organization?
I.
I got my degree and he saidwell, how's that working out for
you?
it's not well then, maybe youshould get another one get
another one how is this?
that's not fair.
Yeah, he said well, you couldcry and sit on the porch, or you

(45:24):
could cry and get off the porch.
I'm not saying no, that itdon't hurt and you shouldn't cry
, but are you gonna cry and donothing about it?
you, you see that it's notworking for you Do a little more
.
I tell my kids that whole.
When someone asks for the who'sgoing to step forward, who's
going to raise their hand who'sgoing to voice the thing?

(45:46):
That's your opportunities, andI don't want to have to be the
person who I get it.
However, if you're trying toget to a place that you said you
wanted to get to, I'm justtelling you these are the things
that you might have to do toget there.
To get there, yeah, and that'sthe thing I think you tell your
kids over and over that you hopethey're hearing you say is the

(46:12):
journey is going to be a littletougher maybe because of how you
look, but yeah, you kind of gotto go there.
You got to go there because thealternative.
You don't have an option, it'snot and you see that and it you
might be in some ways.
I look at it and go I shouldhave been where I got earlier.
But it's just, the journey istough.

We are starting from a little bit
farther back.
We are we're hoping that we'repushing them ahead With no
blocks.
Before you start, andre, I wantto make a point that when we
talk about education, we're notjust talking about college
education.
You can also be a really goodplumber or a really good
electrician or a really goodcrane operator or a really good

(47:00):
mechanic.
Those kind of people are makingbank today For sure.
I mean I remember when I foundout how much a backhoe operator
makes man, those got a goodbackhoe operator.

I mean those guys are like Elevator technicians
are cleaning up.

Yeah, elevator technicians and stuff.
You know these skills, you knowit's just like you can be so
many things.
So when we talk about education, we're talking about find
something that you love and begood at it.
Be good at it.
If you like using your hands,be hands.
If you're good at intellect, bethe intellect, but not just.

(47:42):
You know here's a rat typeapproach to life, but that's
from the financial point of view.
But if we think about it fromthe societal point of view, it
also, like you said, it providesopportunities when you become
good at something and you'reknown for that and pretty soon
people will honor you andrespect you, irregardless of

(48:04):
your color, just because of whatyou do, because you're really
good at it.
Yeah, sure, and terry youalways talk about, you know, not
everybody's going to become annba and nfl, right?

so you gotta really none of them, right.
None of you are the statisticsthey speak for themselves.

I think too.
Uh, speaking about jobs thatpeople have uh looked down upon,
especially for a person ofcolor to have said job, my
mother's father was a custodian.
He was the firstAfrican-American staff person in
the entire Detroit publicschool system, first person of

(48:46):
color to ever be hired byDetroit public schools, and he
was hired as a custodian.
But he took it upon himself tocreate a custodial school and
trained other black males, youngboys, guys that came out of
high school and didn't haveambition or money or opportunity

(49:06):
or grades to move to enter intothe custodial school.
And he used that money to sendhis only child, my mother, to
Michigan State and paid for hereducation for four years at
Michigan State on a custodian'ssalary.
And so, again, when we talkabout this idea that it's a

(49:30):
little bit tougher for us, youknow we don't always get the.
You know the student loans andright uh, you know having to
work while you're also going toschool while somebody else is
just going they're just rollingand and not really going.
They just there, you know saidand they cramming four years
into six because they can youknow what I'm saying.

(49:52):
That's good and then you know,there's the struggle of being a
person of color once you'rethere, right, just getting in.
It's kind of like this idea ofmismanagement or stewardship of
wealth just because you canattain something doesn't mean
you can maintain or sustain thething you got a budget for both.

(50:13):
Just because you can maintainor sustain the thing you got a
budget for both, just becauseyou can buy it, doesn't mean you
can keep it.
And so there were 22,000students in 1958 when my mother
entered into Michigan State andthere were 200 African Americans
, so less than 1%.
And when my mother walked intoour English class, it's the big
amphithe know, amphitheaterclass with, you know it's gen ed

(50:35):
requirements there's 250 plusstudents in the class.
And then professor called theonly African-American down to
the front of the class, whichwas my mother, and he said I
just want to make sure you knowyou can't get an A in my class.
And she said I beg your pardon.
He said I just want you to knowyou can't get an A in my class

(51:01):
because no one who looks likeyou has ever successfully
finished my class.
That was the first day when thesyllabus came out.
So these are, you know, aspeople of color especially, and
that's a female.
So when you start talking aboutblack boys, that's a different
conversation of some additionaladversity associated with this
idea of higher education.
So I'll say this out close.

(51:22):
So my grandfather on myfather's side, my father's
father, did not finish highschool and had 11 children.
My dad is number 10 of 11.
And my dad was the second tofinish high school.
His older sister, liz, finishedhigh school.
So my father saw his sisterfinish and said so he could

(51:45):
finish, but, like I said, hefinished at 16.
And then he became the first tofinish college.
But I just say this about, youknow Terry talking about his
father, the relationship now andTerry's 50 plus, but there's a
connection right with the dad.
And same thing with Deshaun.

(52:06):
There's a connection eventhough there was divorce.
There's a connection with thedad.
So my grandfather told myfather and my Uncle Frankie
which was number 10, my dad's 10and Uncle Frankie's 11, that he
could place a roof over theirhead, but he couldn't feed them
and he couldn't clothe them whenmy dad was 11 and his brother

(52:31):
Frankie, was nine and I neverreally understood like what.
So what is that about?
Like you got kids and you can't.
Why did you have so many if youcan't?
But I found out later in mylife that my grandmother had an
affair and the reason my fatheris so much darker than his
family is because my grandfatheris not my father's biological

(52:56):
father, wow yeah, and then shehad a second affair and my uncle
Frankie was born by another man.
But my grandfather let them bothstay in his house and and was a
father to them.
And so when you talk about theresilience and the love to want

(53:17):
to see black boys make it, hesaid I got to feed these nine, I
got to, they got to get the.
So he taught my dad and myuncle Frankie how to shine shoes
at Fox Theater downtown Detroitso they could earn the money to
buy powdered milk and clothesfrom the Goodwill, while he
housed them and gave them aplace to sleep and to see what

(53:44):
transpired in my dad's life bythe choices he made with
education, because he saw thatas the way out.
Now, of course, the pendulumswung a bit far, because by the
time I came along, I was thatkid that you know everybody else
is outside playing football orbasketball in the street, you

(54:04):
know, or four square, you know,with the ball on the lines on
the cement or chasing possums inthe alley.
But I'm that kid that had to dothe homework after the homework.
So whatever worksheet I gotwhen I came home, after it was
finished and my father would godown on my mother and go into
the filing cabinet downstairsand pull out another, that same

(54:25):
sheet with 15 more questions.
And so there was never a wish,a homework oh, I ain't got no
homework.
Oh no, that's not.
You always of homework.
Oh, I ain't got no homework.
Oh no, that's not.
You always have homework, youalways have homework.
And after you finish it and wegrade it, then we need you to go
get that worksheet, draw numberthree, get these math problems

(54:46):
out.
That's great, but I what didyou think?

what was the expectation?
What did you think theexpectation was for you in a
house with doctors?

Right, and it was one of those.
You know this just comes withit, Like you don't need to
debate it.
You know this, just comes withit.
And my dad never heard of theterm timeout.
My dad didn't know whatrestriction was Right.

Yeah, my dad was a leather conference, man,
everything was resolved with aconference.

Just because you make it doesn't mean that
everybody's going to make iteasy for you to go up, for you
to stay there.
We got to teach our childrenthat, right, you may get in the
door, but you got, whether it'sacademics or sports or whatever.
Just because you made it on theteam doesn't mean you're gonna,
yeah, start if you don't workhard just enough is not enough

(55:42):
let's talk about some of thejoys of seeing your children
begin to do better than you did,or come up with things that
questions that you couldn'tanswer.
It's like, well, I gotta go andresearch that, because now
they're like they're not justlooking to do better than you,
but they're like stepping outahead of you and now you're the
one trying to catch up with them.

This whole college athlete thing.
There's some things that comealong with that that you have to
be guarded against if youintend to actually stay an
athlete.
For the entire four yearsyou're there, unless you're
going to leave early to head tothe league or something of that
nature.
But I was telling those storiesto my son early on because he

(56:23):
was saying, dad, I want to go D1.
I want to get a scholarshipwhen I go to college.
And I'm saying, son, that'sgreat, but there are folk there,
whether they're boosters orwhether they're young ladies who
who, like the fact that you'rean athlete, it might be going
somewhere.
They see, you know this or thatabout you that that might

(56:44):
hinder you from actually everaccomplishing your own goal of
being on scholarship for thetime that you're there and
graduating, of being onscholarship for the time that
you're there and graduating.
And so a middle of our sons, atthe end of his second semester
as a freshman, he called us onetime and said I just want y'all
to know.
I decided I'm not going to datewhile I'm in college.
And I'm thinking, okay, well,you say that now, but it's a

(57:09):
bunch of honeys on the yard, Idon't know if you're going to
make that one Reverend.
But I hear you, though.
I hear what you're saying.
And by his junior year he hadstill never been on a date at
Washington State Universitywhich had the party school
reputation and blah, blah, blah,blah, blah, he was the fastest
on the squad.
That's why I received fastestperson on the squad, lowest

(57:32):
fastest, 4-3 time.
And he called us one time andsaid hey, football's not my
thing.
I wanted to prove to myselfthat, coming from a 1A Christian
school, I could do it.
Now that I know I can, theywant too much of your time.
That's your life.
I'm going to stay with track,run these hurdles, he said.
But, dad, there's a girl ontrack team.
She's really nice.

(57:53):
She's having a party.
A lot of football players andtrack guys are going.
I think I'm gonna go.
I'm like, son, you, you don'tneed to be telling me where you
go to the weekend.
That's your, you know, that'syou, that's so.
I get a call about three in themorning, right from your kids
period and I said, son, what'sgoing on?
He said, oh, I just wanted totalk to you.

(58:14):
I'm over here at Denny's.
I went, but it wasn't for me.
I'm a junior, I hadn't been toa party in three years.
I'm hanging because I went withthe football players and now
that's my ride.
They still there, so I walkeddown to Denny's.
It's 24 hours.

(58:38):
I'm waiting for them to comepick me up, and so I just was
like, yeah, you on a differentpage than your daddy, was you
doing it totally different thanI did, which is beneficial for
you.
To be an African-American male,to be 33 years old, to be a
virgin, is not something we talkabout, but that comes from the
amount of time that was spentcommunicating some of the

(59:01):
challenges and the shortfallsand the poor choices that I made
as a black male scholarshipathlete.
That he heard that and itwasn't a you need to some kind
of way he put it together.
You know what did that?
That was, that was funny, butthat that wasn't beneficial.

(59:23):
So here's what I'm going to do.
But anyway, that's just whenyou talk about being excited
about what the next generationis doing.
He'll be able to say to his sonthis is how he walked through
five years at Wazoo and this ishow he kept himself, to be able
to say to his wife one day thatthese are the choices I made

(59:44):
prior to saying I do, which.
His mama could say that at thealtar, but his father certainly
couldn't.

I think there's some beauty in the whole.
They actually are listening toyou If you are committed to
saying it, sometimes over andover and over they're hearing
you.
Sometimes they don't want tohear it because it's contrary to
what they're thinking at themoment, but it's still getting
in there, and then you get tosee the benefit of it later.

(01:00:14):
I know for mine same thing.
It was like, well, you went toa D1 school, yeah, but they
didn't help me do anything I hadto get in the back of the line
like everybody else.
Let's look at some of theseother schools that are more
academic-minded.
Graduation rates are 97%.
Let's talk about some of thesebecause you can still play and I

(01:00:36):
remember with my oldest I waslike, if you go D1, you're going
to maybe get to play 20 games.
20 games, what are you talkingabout?
So, again, you're not going toplay as a freshman and you might
play a few and get on the field.
You'll probably do specialteams more than anything else,
and then you're going to comeinto your own and get hurt and

(01:00:59):
miss a few games, and thenthere's going to be some
freshman that shows up as yoursenior.

Dr. Andre Sims (01:01:03):
That's all world .

Terry White (01:01:05):
So you'll get 20 games out, that's, you know, 20
games, or you can go to thisother school, get this education
, where they're going to helpyou get on with your life,
because they have 97% graduationrate and they actually have
this group that helps you, soyou don't have to start in the
back of the line.

(01:01:26):
Those are the kind of choicesyou have and you, you know yeah,
well, you wear.
D1.
They listen to me, but turns outthey are, and that's.
I think that like you get thephone call and I get kendall and
he's like dad, kendall did runa start and he did so did so did

(01:01:47):
dominic so they were early inwhere they were supposed to be.
He had his AA at 18.
He got his four-year degree at20.
And he had his master's at 21.
He said yeah, I'm getting thesephone calls to go play
basketball over here and they'reoffering me a master's, which I
already have.
But I already know I'm notreally going to go.

(01:02:10):
I'm not going to the league andI don't have an interest in
going overseas.
So I'm going to go ahead andtake this teaching job and do
this so that I can start helpingkids get their educations and
start moving through life.
That's that phone call whereyou're like moving ahead right
now Is this guy sick?

(01:02:31):
Is this the same?
I'm going to North Carolina.

Right, right, right, right, right, right to
the end.

Now he's telling me he's turning down so he can get
started with helping.
Yeah, that's so good.
That's the problem.
That's so good.

De'Sean Quinn (01:02:49):
Can I just add one thing?
I have my kids 10 and 15.
So, not unlike your children,my eldest son is going to start
running, start next year.
It's like I'm in the moment,right, Because I think the

(01:03:23):
surprising thing when you are afather is you got to let go of
that, want to do it for themright and leave space so they
can figure it out.
And they are.
My two boys are mentally strong, comfortable with being
emotional when they need to benot being raised, I think from

(01:03:46):
all the generations before them,and a term is a term and I
think it's a relevant term thetoxic masculinity.
For us, it was just a normalexperience, but to see this
sense of responsibility andconnection, but mental strength,
right, this piece around.

(01:04:08):
You know, if you have to readbeing comfortable with going to
therapy if you need it, talkingabout the hard things in our
household which we never did,right?
You know whatever happened toso-and-so?
Oh well, they lost their houseto probate, right, but now

(01:04:31):
they're talking aboutinvestments at a young age.
You know, I think about myeldest son, just the work ethic.
Look, I played football and Idid it the old school way Show
up out of shape.
My son did it right, and thenyou get in shape.

During the two days, during the two days.

And then so, whether it be between nutrition,
but even just my son, he justfinished his, I think, his third
year in track.
He runs 100, the 400, the 4x1.
I say all that that he'swilling to try different things
until he found a thing that heliked and the day after the

(01:05:17):
school was kind of done,competing, he's out because he,
dad, can you give me this thingfor my training parachute,
whatever Next day?
He's out there and then talkingabout his plan.
So they got a plan and I thinkfor us we were trying to get

(01:05:39):
there, we were trying to staythere as we talked about.
But I think my boys are againwhen I think about the
generational maybe not cursesbut just generational
experiences, but being able todevelop new ones.

Grantley Martelly (01:05:59):
Yeah, turn the corner.
Turn the corner, see themmoving ahead of you at the same
venue, where that is Exactlyright For sure, and my three
brothers.

they have that kind of investment in their
children as well, so they are ata better starting place.
But again, the experiencearound not being satisfied or
just getting there because yougot to stay there and the level
of support will be there.
But you kind of got to go findit and people do want to kind of
see you not win, so that that'sthis is a good place to talk,

(01:06:33):
turn and um as we sort of roundfrom home.

Here's the biblical foundation for all the
stuff that we're talking about.
All four of us are believers,christ followers and stuff.
Let's talk about some of thebiblical foundations that
surround the things that we'retalking about.
The Bible obviously hasexamples of good fatherhood and
not good fatherhood, but whatwould you say are some of the

(01:06:59):
biblical foundations for some ofthe principles you've used in
raising your boys and thatyou're hoping for them going in
the future?

Yeah, I would say you know.
So, even though I grew up in aChristian home, education was
the god of my house, you know mydad didn't come to any of my
sporting events, and that was onpurpose.
He wanted to help me understandwhere the value was.
The value was in the academics,the value wasn't in the
athletics.
But we didn't have Bible study.
Formally, my dad wasn'tgathering the family together

(01:07:35):
after dinner or at the dinnertable and opening the Bible.
It was required to go to church.
It wasn't an option Like well,dad, I don't feel like that.
That wasn't a discussion.
And if you weren't healthyenough to go to church, you
weren't going nowhere that day.
It wasn't like well, I don'tfeel good this morning.
Then later on, you want to gooutside.
Yeah, that's not.

(01:07:59):
And if you spent the night oversomebody's house on saturday,
either you had to have it workedout where they were going to
drop you off in time enough toget to church or you, or you
weren't going to whoever's houseit was if you couldn't do
church in the morning.
So with my kids, um, I wantedthem to be able to have a place
where they could ask questionsabout what they were
experiencing.
At them go, unless they werewilling to write a paper, one

(01:08:38):
page paper, on what it was inthe movie.
That was contrary to what theyhad been taught.
So instead of just saying, no,you keep because it's got this,
it's got that, it's got thisother thing.
It was well, you can go, butthis is what you got to do to be
able to go.
And sometimes that would belike, oh yeah, no, I'm good, I

(01:09:03):
don't need to go, yeah, and thesame thing with the music.
There'd be certain you knowmusic that was out there that
the other, their friends, werelistening to, and they'd be like
what?
I want to get and I want to yomtv raps and I want to, okay,
well, no, but if you want to doit, then you need to actually
play it and and tell us what itis about it that you know is
contrary to the screen.
Why is that not in keeping withwhat God is saying?

(01:09:24):
And so sometimes that wouldjust that would be enough to,
and other times they'd be like,yeah, I'm writing the paper
Cause I'm definitely going to gosee the soul, and so so when
can we go, you know um.

So, and so.
So when can we go?
You know, I already got thepaper Right.

Right.
But I listen to my kids now asadults and they say that you
know the whole PK thing, youknow, wasn't our life experience
, because, for whatever reason,you and mom allowed us to
experience things that our peerswere experiencing, but we had
to use the scripture and findplaces where.

(01:09:58):
So we know that's not right,but we don't know where it is.
So then the next assignment waswell, you don't have to write a
paper, but you have to write,you have to find the Bible
verses for these 10 things thatI looked at when I saw it and
hear the 10 things that arecontrary.
I need you to tell me where doyou find that in the Bible.
And we would go back and forth.
So I think when my daughtersays to me okay, dad, I don't

(01:10:20):
know why, that's not right, butthat's not right what that
person just said, we listened toa podcast and they're supposed
to be Christian and they I can'ttell you where you find it.
That is wrong, but it'ssomething in my spirit, like
it's something off about youknow, and you go wow, so that
foundation that you laid earlyon, where you were gathering a

(01:10:44):
family together and havingcasual conversation about
whatever it was that washappening, and we had decided
that our kids again for us, ourkids were required to go to
private Christian school,kindergarten through eighth
grade.
Then they had the choice to gowherever they wanted to go for
high school.
We just wanted to lay thefoundation.
First my son was playingfootball.

(01:11:05):
We went to the 5A powerhousefor high school, met with the
athletic director, went to lunchperiod About 300 folks throwing
food and cursing, going crazy.
He was like oh no, I'm good,dad, I'm heading back over to
the joint.
My daughter was saying I don'tcare where I go, I ain't staying
here, I ain't going to go visitnobody.
Just as long as you know, I'mnot going to finish here.

I grew up with my mom Bible study at the table, to
the point where you start to gohey, didn't we study this
already?
We started turning to reruns orsomething I already know this.
I know this part Well good, butI got it and I knew she would
leverage what I was learning inreal life and I just picked that

(01:11:50):
up so I would take that with mykids.
So the whole mindset of sittingat the table and going through
your Bible study lessons at thetime not knowing that's
devotionals.

Right right, right, right right.
Oh, no, okay.

Yes, that's devotional.
But sitting there and trying toinstill what you heard, what you
read, into everyday life andthe choices you make, and I've
always been this kind of are yougoing to be a giver or a taker?
Are you going to be a servant,leader, leader, servant, or are
you going to be a iron fisted?
Because I said so and notbenevolent enough to understand

(01:12:29):
that you need a team to be withyou and they need to be a part
of your decision making so thatyou can make way for those who
are coming after you.
Because that's really what it'sabout.
It was never really about justyou.
Uh, what you know, when you,when, when your time comes and
they ask, well, what did yougive, what did you do?
Yeah, and it's not gonna.

(01:12:51):
I don't know if anybody in lineis going to say, well, I made a
lot of money.
Oh, I guess it wasn't reallyabout it, yeah it wasn't.
So I try to get that partthrough to my kids as that
spiritual piece of and here'swhere it shows- that it's about
how you serve others, and tomuch whom is given much is

(01:13:16):
expected.
That's not Spider-Man, that'sLuke Right right.
Yes, they try to.
That's biblical.
And then to watch your kidsstart to go into that area, I
think that's a big piece for me.
Beyond the, it's not just aboutmaking it, it's not just about

(01:13:39):
you.
That's not part of it.
And then tying all that otherstuff in the financial piece
which I didn't get growing up.
I had bad credit for a longtime because nobody ever told me

(01:14:00):
that you're not supposed tofill that thing out and send it
in immediately for that 23%credit thing, just so that you
get stereo and pay for it forthe next eight years, or
whatever.

It was.
Right, right, right, right.
Pay for it three times.

Right right, right right.
But that whole when you get yourmoney.
This is what you should do.
This is all you really need isadd a want versus a need and
have that mindset growing up sothat you should do.
This is all you really need isadd a want versus a need and
have that mindset growing up sothat you're ready, because the
more you understand those pieces, the more you get to get around
to serving, and that's yourblessing.

(01:14:28):
I mean, of course, you feelgood when you see there's
nothing better than seeingsomeone you helped doing
something, and then they helpeddoing something, and then
they're doing it, and I thinkfor us it's just rare for us to
hear about the good that you seeblack men doing.

(01:14:48):
We're just quick to see the andthen they did this and shot up
of this over here.
And this over here was in theend, the thing went bankrupt.
We don't get to hear a lot ofall that incredible stuff that
happens, but it's out there andwe see it and I, I, I feel good
that.
I think the things we do withour kids, especially when you

(01:15:12):
push that, that for me, leader,servant type of you're here to
serve.
You're here to lead a life thatmight cause someone else who's
struggling to go.
I need to figure out what youdo, that's good.
Because I'm struggling and youin the same pool as I am and you
seem okay with this.

(01:15:33):
Yeah.
What kind of peace you got thatwhole.
I know I'm going to be okay andI think it comes from that
first piece of no matter whatyou was there.
You were there, you were there.
You were there, and that's adifferent place when you're,
that's that whole like.
I'm trying to be like yourfather in heaven.
He's there, he's there, I'mgoing to be here.
I'm trying to be like yourfather in heaven.

(01:15:55):
He's there.
He's there, I'm going to be hereand I'm going to try to do
these things for you, and itgives them some calm as they try
to make it through becausethey've got to fall back.
That's right.
They've got to fall back.
Now what they do with that onthe next piece, I'm looking
forward to hearing about that.
It's up to them, yeah.

We grew up in the house, just like you guys
and my mother did devotionalsand stuff like that.
We were always in church,involved in youth group,
involved in anything, gotinvolved in music.
I learned to play.
I started playing the Christianband when I was 13 years of age

(01:16:36):
, Started playing the tambourine, worked my way all the way up.
But that really helped megrowing up and it helped me
formulate a lot of my values.
When I went to college bymyself, I was in a predominantly
white college and to me itreally came out about how you
live it.
Right Now I'm on my own.

(01:16:56):
There's nobody there, there'snobody left.
You can do whatever you want todo.
And that's when it really cameout to me about how do you live
this life that you're supposedto live.
You know, I had this mentor whowas teaching me as well, but
that's when it really struck methat you know you could go to
college and do whatever you wantto do, because your parents
aren't there.
There's nobody there, you're inanother country, it's not like

(01:17:21):
you're down the street.
But when I got my kids, I wouldadmit that I was not very good
about having the devotionsaround the table.
We tried that and I was neverconsistent in that.
But we tried to make sure that.
We tried to make sure that ourkids were in the word, you know,
involved in youth group,involved in Sunday school,

(01:17:42):
involved in cuisine, got friendsaround them, had Christian
friends around them, serviceprojects, local, national,
international, you know, andseeing again.
Again, it's not about them.
How do you serve others?
How do you live this life?
And some days I wonder, youknow, if, if we even did it

(01:18:05):
right.
You know a lot of people kidabout you know, when you have
kids there's no manual, and Ithink about that all the time
and I think back.
You know all the ways we raiseour children.
It would have been good to knowthat, it would have been good
to do that.

It would have been good to do that.

But you're doing it as you go right.
For sure that's how you try toteach them the best.
You know, and that's alwaysbeen on my mind with my children
as they're working out theirfaith.
You know, but I see it in them,the things that they do, the
way they talk, the way they helppeople, the way they're
concerned about people.
You know they call us and askus to pray for friends, that

(01:18:43):
kind of stuff.
They welcome strangers intotheir home.
You know they give to peoplewho need to be given to.
You know my kids always talkabout how many people we always
had in our home every holiday.
Everything because my wife andI when we were in college, many
times we were alone by ourselvesbecause we were foreign
students and everybody took offwith their families and stuff

(01:19:05):
and we were alone by ourselves.
Or some people invited us totheir house but sometimes you
really didn't fit in.
So we sort of made this promiseafter we got married that we
would make our house to be theplace where people who didn't
have anywhere to go would comewhen they would come.
That's good.
And when you talk to ourchildren now they tell you I
remember those days, I rememberthese people coming, I remember

(01:19:28):
serving, I remember going onthat trip to Alaska or going and
helping out people, you know,and we were talking to our son
the other day and he said he wastelling his wife and stuff.
He said I remember thatThanksgiving we had at our house
and we had all of these peoplefrom all around the world and we
said Thanksgiving grace inseven languages.

(01:19:49):
So.
But the Bible gives us, youknow, we talk about the biblical
foundation.
The Bible gives us, you know,train up a child in the way they
should grow and when they'reold they won't depart from it.
And I struggled with that for awhile.
And then I was at church backin Utah and I was really worried
about, you know, have I done agood job as a father raising my

(01:20:13):
children?
And one of the associatepastors, she came up to me I
remember Bridget Waters and shesaid do you believe what the
Word of God says?
And I said yes, she says well,it says that if you brought up
those children in the way thatthey should grow, that someday
it is not going to depart andsomeday it's going to come back.

(01:20:36):
Do you believe that?
And I said yes.
So she said well, all you gotto do now is wait for it to
happen.

Yeah, I believe it.
I believe it.
I believe it's very true.
We do all we're supposed to do.
We're all over on the spectrum,on time and distance and all of
it, and ultimately, the onething you taught them early on
was faith.
Have some faith.
So you got to have it too.

(01:21:04):
When it comes to did we do whatwe were supposed to do?
And you sit back and I knowDanae and I have them kind of
conversations all the time.
Well, you know, let God do what?
He's supposed to do.
You say what?

you're supposed to do.
You say what you're supposed todo.

You be where you're supposed to be.
And could you have done more?
Probably, but hey, you couldhave done less too, yeah, so in
the end, you can't save them,you can't.

Right, that's so good.

That's the truth part.
But every now and then theygive you a little glimpse and
you go wow, he was paying alittle attention there, I'm just
saying.

My daughter told me that one day I'll listen
to you.
I heard you.
She said to me she says youdidn't think I was listening to
you when you were talking to me,did you?

And I said well, some days I wondered and I said
well, some days.

I wandered Some days.
I wandered, I think, too,always reminding our boys in
particular, that life is aboutchoices and that phrase you show
me your friends, I'll show youyour future.
Who are you choosing to spendtime with?

(01:22:18):
Who's in your circle, and whyare they in your circle?
What motivated you to be withthat person?
And using passages like 1Corinthians, 15, 33, you know,
bad behavior corrupts goodcharacter or Exodus 23, 2, do
not follow the crowd inwrongdoing.

(01:22:41):
Uh, first, timothy 522 do notshare in the sins of others.
Keep yourself pure.
And this whole idea.
Well, johnny was doing it, meand john, yeah, no, but that's
not.
That's not the standard.

I know you.
I know you and johnny want toit, me and john yeah, no bro,
that's not.

That's not the standard I know you, I know you
and johnny want to be you.
That's your dude.
But as soon as johnny go left,you gotta let him go left by
himself and learn that maybejohnny's not the guy you thought
he was.
And so my wife came up withthis uh, mrc.
Mrc became the phrase for thekids, which stood for make right
choices.
So when they would leave thehouse they said well, buy that,

(01:23:16):
it's going to go on, mrc.
You know this idea.
You're going to have somechoices out there tonight that
we aren't going to be privy to.
That's great, and we'reencouraging you to make right
choices.
You've been trained what thechoices are, but ultimately you
have to make them.

I think the earlier you start with your kids with
any types of sayings and this iswhat I believe and you are who
you hang out with when they'reyoung they catch that stuff
early.
It's like saying you areobviously brilliant when they're
real little.
That's right, so they reallyare taken to what you say and

(01:23:58):
then later on, depending on howyou cultivate those teachings,
it does.
I do do the whole like who doyou associate with?
What are?
they going to become.
When they were little, I wasdoing that and I could see them
picking and choosing and in somecases, being worried about how
I might feel about whothey're hanging out with.

(01:24:24):
I knew you wasn't going to likethem so I didn't even bother.
They didn't have it all yet,but later on you start to see
that manifest more, and thatthese are the people I associate
with and it's about all ofthose things doing right, being
ambitious, wanting to becomesomething.
And if you're associating withthat, you said get with

(01:24:47):
like-minded people, even datepeople who will understand what
it is you're trying to be,because they're trying to be,
and it becomes that kind of a.
Those are also the kind ofchoices you make good bad
choices.
People say anything, how you'regonna serve, how you're gonna
live, and it starts to help you.
Uh, because it's like going tothe gym.

(01:25:09):
You might do well if you go andyou're, it's just you and but
certain days you know you don'twant to go, for whatever reason,
and if you've associated withthe right people they can get
you there You're not going.
Come on man.
It's just, I'll come through andget you.

(01:25:30):
You get those kind of folksaround you and they can get you
through some of them moments,those kind of folks around you
and they can get you through,some of them, moments versus the
are you going to raise him upor he's going to take you down?
Which, how?
Which way is this going to go?
Because if you don't think youcan raise them up, why are you?
Why are you still associating?

(01:25:50):
This is not going to work out.
Well, they're taking you down.
Well, I know it's going to workout.
Well, they're taking you down.
Well, no one's going to take medown.
Well, I'm just telling you whatI'm seeing right now Proof is
in the pudding, and I let mykids go.
Okay, I had to cut her loose.
Because that's not what I wanted.
Right.

(01:26:10):
Good, because that's the thingYou're trying to put them into
places, right, tell them all thethings and it sent them.
That's what I believe, that'sthe faith part that I did all of
this, and then a big piece ofeverything is prayer.
I think, as men raising blackboys, you got to go in there

(01:26:32):
with prayer first almost all thetime Okay help me to say the
right stuff, lord, and when Iget here.
If it goes off on a tangent,please help me keep up with it.
That's funny.
And I feel better knowing that Isought it out.
I sought out some prayer beforeI walked into a situation, yeah

(01:26:53):
, and then I tend to have muchbetter peace.
I'm good.
It's going to play out the wayyou want it to play out, and I
did.
The thing you asked me to dowas seek you first before I go,
and now I'm going to just let itbe.

Let it play out, yeah, trust.

When I say that, I say that and I say that and I
say that, and there are stilltimes where I'm not feeling good
about it and I'm having aconversation, and I'm having
like a father conversation too.
Now, Lord, you told me.
I don't see it.
I'm not seeing it.
Are you coming?
What do you know?
But?
hey, that's the place where yourfaith has to be there too, for

(01:27:35):
your boys, for the boys thatthey're going to have Right
Generations.

Were you going to say something, deshaun?
Yeah?

I was just going to say that that's how I was
raised.
My mom and she still is theperson I call when we talk about
Scripture and I think I meanshe's that rock and we talk
about scripture and I think Imean she's that rock I don't
think I would be choosing thecareer that I have now right,
whether it be elected officialin service transit, serving

(01:28:07):
others without that foundation,because there are a lot of
challenges that we have insociety and the responsibility
that comes with those roles.
It's not always fun.
So you have to have somefoundation and I remember it was
probably a tactic.
Although my mom grew up in thechurch, she made sure we grew up

(01:28:30):
in the church, so as you allsaid we was doing youth
confirmation.
We were doing bake sales, sales.
We were at everything and thatwas my mom.
She didn't play that we.
We knew we had to show up andwe talked scripture, um.
But I would just say she's myrock because it doesn't matter,

(01:28:51):
um, what I'm going through and Ihope she can be there.
As long as she can be there.
She's kind of like my pastorShe'll break out verse in a
minute and it always is helpful,no matter what's going on.
And I'm doing that for my boysand I'm also having them spend

(01:29:17):
time with her because I thinkall my challenges that I've ever
had she was always there.
And I remember, not that I'm.
I mean, I've done some thingsin life and I'm proud of the
service that I that I continueto be involved in I show up and

(01:29:39):
kind of give to others.
But the one time she told mespecifically that she was proud
of me was we put on this eventfor the community feed the
community and that that was thefirst time I ever heard her
full-throated say I'm very proudof you.

(01:29:59):
And it wasn't for these thingsand these titles that I gained,
but that we were buildingcommunity.
And I know where she got itfrom, because my grandmother was
a founder of the church inJohns Island, south Carolina.
So you can just imagine there'sa few churches but not many.
That's where she's buried andshe had in her pew.

(01:30:23):
She got her pew seat and stillain't nobody sitting in it.

And.

I have two uncles that are ministers, but for me
it was a lifestyle that areministers, but for me it was a
lifestyle and it probably was.
As I reflect on it, it was howshe kind of got through raising
four boys on her salary and wewould pray whenever things were

(01:30:54):
good and challenging and that'swhat I was taught and that's
what I teach my boys.
And I have to say, like it doesbuild your character, it gives
you some guardrails on how faryou should go.
So I think the choices that Imade was because it was buried

(01:31:15):
in being taught and learning theBible and being a good
Christian and having a sense ofresponsibility.
I think the first one that Iremember out of fear was the
outer dive.

Father always.

But I also think it's also that you don't write
off family, and so I'm kind ofgoing back to my relationship
with my dad Like that was never.
It was never an option, it waswe were always going to get back
together.
But I just think about thefoundation because, again, just
being exposed to all thoseactivities, giving back and and

(01:31:54):
why you give back and being ofservice, I find it hard if you
don't have that foundation,because there's so much there to
say, it's a lot to carry everyday, every decision, every day,
every decision, and I foundmyself even just kind of we all

(01:32:18):
have challenges, but to havefriends and mentors that you can
pick up the phone and theyreinforce, maybe something your
mother said right, terry.
Plenty of times where you wouldreflect on a scripture that my
mom would always tell me, orGrantley, just your resiliency
and being able to reflect on theway I was raised.

(01:32:40):
It just keeps you centered andbalanced and focused and and
it's easier to then be a parentto a child and you also have to
tell them the reason why you arebalanced and focused and that
is that just being grounded inthe Bible and being a Christian

(01:33:01):
and reading the word andunderstanding why we do the
things that we do, and don't beleft to your own devices.

There is a way right, and so you don't have to
wing it the whole time.

You don't wing it.
So let's, let's sort of wrap itup by talking about what's our
hope, our hope for our boys, our, our boys and young men and men
, now, as we look forward, Ithink, the thing I I try to pass
to my boys is they're supposedto be better fathers than I was.

They should been paying attention enough that
they take the good, they throwout the bad and they get better.
And they're apologetic about thethings that they don't do.
Well, with their kids so theycan see that coming up and
instill in their kids.
What I was trying to get intothem was that I truly believed

(01:33:57):
something great for them coming,you guys are

going to be amazing.

I don't know what at, I don't know how, but I know
I'm supposed to be here doingthis thing to make sure you get
that opportunity to beincredible people, incredible
givers.
And I say that whole, you startearly.

early, because if you say, your kid can fly at
two.

They believe you right.
Start to try and figure out howto be great, then how to serve
better, uh, and if they do that,then that whole well deshaun is
just an anomaly.
You know, yeah, Pastor Sam saysyeah, but he's different.
And how do we get beyond?

(01:34:43):
We had this conversation.
How do we get beyond the pointof, well, you got in because and
you know we're not callinganybody else we're not calling
anybody else.
We need to get our boys to growup in a way that it starts to
become do you?

(01:35:05):
have any other people.
You know that we should bereaching out to.
That that becomes more of thecommonplace than this anomaly.
Mindset of there's not many.
So how do we break some of thebiases down?
Mindset of there's not many.
So how do we break some of thebiases down?
And I think that's our jobs, asthe men who are raising black
boys is to instill in them.
How hard it might be, but yougot to go and you're going to be

(01:35:29):
great.

That's so good.
You just reminded me ofsomething that, about being a
father, you end up seeingyourself in little different
ways in your kids, and I thinkabout being there not so much to
correct it but to inform itthrough my life experience.

(01:35:53):
So my youngest son is emotional, really hard on himself and
he's strategic and for me it'sover-processing.
So being able to give to him away to process so that's my hope

(01:36:15):
is just seeing what we see inour children and giving them the
tools to be successful.
And then I think the otherthing is being able to practice
love and joy and celebrating it.
That would be amazing.
And so my responsibility is tocreate those spaces and tell

(01:36:40):
them they should be unapologeticabout love for others and
actually experiencing joy.
And I think maybe the lastthing is we're all a part of a
legacy and you don't always knowwhat part you play in that
legacy.
So my hope is that they willagain take the mantle or

(01:37:02):
standing on shoulders, um, andpick up that legacy and create
and be unafraid to step out, um,and contribute to actually
making this world a better place.
But they say I don't want toprepare my kids that's funny.

(01:37:24):
I just wrote this for thehardships of the world, the
disparities of the world.
I want to prepare them for thepossibilities, and so I kind of
feel like that might be thebiggest thing, cause I know my
father tried to do it for me andhis father tried to do it for
him is to prepare them for thepossibilities.
How do I convey it?

(01:37:45):
So they say, dad, you're right,there are possibilities.
And now that I'm in school andI'm not getting the help that I
need, I'm going to push throughit because you, because you said
you know I got to make my way.
So I think that's the biggestthing is prepare them for the
possibilities.
And I hope they seize and takeit and be a part of their legacy

(01:38:07):
.

Yeah, I certainly agree with both Terry
and Deshaun as far as this uhlimit less potential, right?
It's this idea that umEphesians three, 20, he's able
to provide more than you couldever ask or think.
Um.
So my hope is that theycontinue to swing for the fences

(01:38:33):
uh, cause you, you never hitany home runs that you don't
swing at and that they don'tneed to be anything for me or
their mother.
They need to be authenticallywho God made them, and so the
hope is that they will hear,take the time to hear, from

(01:38:56):
their heavenly father and andwalk in that with the
supernatural empowerment of theHoly spirit.
That's my hope is that theylive out their faith, um, to the
maximum degree, that theabundant life is their, their
actual experience, not a passagethat they can quote from John
10.
It's like they are using theirspiritual gifts with every born

(01:39:20):
again.
Believer is most fulfilled whenhe or she is walking in the
gifting that the Holy spiritgave them.
That that's their desire, andthen they actually see the fruit
of that.
Our daughter Penn, is a reallyhigh compliment, not close with
this.
We were there for her birthdaylast week and she's got this
newer gentleman, that's, he'smade it the furthest along,

(01:39:43):
she's 29 and I said to her Idon't want to disrespect you, I
don't want to enter into yourspace, but I have a comment or
two I'd like to make, based onan observation with the young
man.
I don't want to enter into yourspace, but I have a comment or
two I'd like to make, based onan observation with the young
man I I'm.
I would like you to be there soyou can.
You can hear for yourself thatyour daddy cause she was like

(01:40:06):
dad, you know how you do.
You know the, the men see youand they.
She said I learned that injunior high don't invite you to
come to the class for nothingbecause, then I don't hear from
no boys the whole year.
So you're ripping phone books inmy classroom.
It's not good for my social life.
So anyway, long story short, wefinished the conversation, my

(01:40:30):
wife.
I felt like the Lord allowed usto say some things for the
young man to know that we haveinterest in his spiritual life
it's not just about our daughteronly and I said to her I said,
did you feel like I crossed anyline in my discussion?
She said, dad, I'm not married,you're still my spiritual

(01:40:51):
covering.
So I welcomed what you had tosay until such a time as when
somebody else is supposed to be.
And I thought, okay, okay,that's what you're looking for.
I'm treading light, trying notto hit any landmines while I'm

(01:41:12):
trying to drop this truth outthere.
And she was, like that's whatyou're supposed to do, like
that's, until I'm married, I'mtaking my instruction from the
one that God gave me.
I just was like, okay, that'swhat you hope for.

That's pretty powerful and I agree with all
the things that you've said.
You know, I think we've all hadsimilar experiences in some
ways and different in other ways, whereas in our kids.
But I think the hope is, youknow, to see them live out their
full potential that God createdthem to be, find that thing,
that path that God has createdfor them, and to live it out to

(01:41:51):
the fullest for themselvesfullest for themselves and
serving others with humility andhonor and integrity, to raise
the next generation that willeven go further than we have
gone, or we have seen them gonewithout hope and that

(01:42:12):
anticipation that anything ispossible, that they can do it,
and to leave a legacy.
We hope that we leave a legacyfor our children that they will
be willing to pass on to theirchildren and to their children's
children.
That is our hope.
My biggest hope is that theyserve the Lord fully in their

(01:42:36):
life, you know, realizing thatachieving what God created you
to be is not a separateaccomplishment from serving him
Right.
They're both tied within thesame thing.
Yeah, and I've been reading 1Samuel these last few weeks
weeks, you know, and the thing Iknow about samuel is that he

(01:42:57):
learned to hear.
He could hear the voice, but hecouldn't recognize it, you know
.
And then eli says that's thevoice, so learn to recognize it.
Once he recognized it, he saidto him now you got to do
whatever he, even if it meansyou have to tell me things that

(01:43:18):
I don't want to hear, becausethe first message was not a
compliment for Eli.
And Eli said tell me everything, don't hold anything back, so
be truthful and honest.
So my prayer for them is thatthey would find that
relationship with God, learn tohear his voice and learn to be

(01:43:39):
obedient and do what he's askedthem to do.
But I'm also proud of my kids interms of seeing them, already
at this point in their life,accomplishing greater things and
going farther than I evendreamed and imagined that I
could get right, and seeing themdo things that I could.

(01:44:00):
Even I thought I had a bigimagination when I was young,
but I watched my kids and I waslike man.
They're doing things that Ididn't even dream, I didn't even
know it was possible, you know,and that's part of it.
And then to see my son begin tonow instill those things in his
son because he has a son, allright.

(01:44:22):
So now he is beginning to, toraise a boy now in the world,
and I think that the last thingI would say is that, um, to be
able to learn to navigate theworld right, because I realized
the world that our children grewup in, and even now the world
that our grandchildren isgrowing up in, is completely

(01:44:43):
different to the world that Igrew up in.
So how do we teach them tonavigate the world?
And the hope is that the sameGod who brought us this far will
carry them as well, becausethey don't have a manual.
It looks like we didn't.
The manual we have is the wordof God, it's the Bible, it's
prayer, it's the power of theHoly spirit in our lives.

So I want to thank you, gentlemen, for this time
tonight, thank you for having us, that we can sit around and
talk Great conversation, youknow, just a great conversation
around the table.

We don.
We don't know where it's goingto go hopefully somebody will
want to listen to it, but evenif nobody listens to it, we
learn from each other and wehear from each other.
You know about the things thatwe can continue to encourage
each other on, and I just wantto thank all of you four, you
three publicly for your part.

(01:45:33):
You playing my life andencouraging me, and being there
and and and being available andbeing able to speak into my life
.
You know the things that I needto hear at the times.
I need to hear it.

That's mutual brother.

Thank you Absolutely.

Let's go raise some boys.

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