January 3, 2025 • 53 mins
This 2025 BONUS Episode from the early days of absurd wisdom explores the significance of naming and identity through personal anecdotes and cultural insights. The host shares a story about being named Alpesh through cultural traditions and explains how various identities like Al and A.M. emerged over time. The discussion includes friends sharing their own naming experiences, the cultural practices of naming in Hindu and Ghanaian traditions, and the impact of names on personal and professional identities. The conversation emphasizes the importance of claiming one's own name and identity.
You can find a.m. on Instagram and TikTok at @absurdwisdom. We are produced and distributed by DAE Presents, the production arm of DAE (@dae.community on Instagram and online at mydae.org).
The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the speakers and do not necessarily reflect the views or positions of any entities they represent. While we make every effort to ensure that the information shared is accurate, we welcome any comments, suggestions, or correction of errors.
You can contact us at daepresents@mydae.org.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
am (00:02):
No, is to be within a specific discipline, a specific
(00:36):
world, a specific reality toknow is extremely useful for
getting things done within thatparticular discipline or world
or reality to be an effectivedoctor or a pastry chef or a
financial analyst.
There's much that is critical toknow, but knowing by its nature
is bounded by, and in factreinforcing of, the reality
within which it occurs.
(00:58):
For 25 years, I've worked withexecutives in large
organizations, grad students,tech entrepreneurs, religious
leaders, and no doubt mytoughest client, myself.
I'm developing the capacity toexplore what lies beyond
knowing, beyond certainty at apractical level.
This work is required for thingslike innovation, but more
importantly, I found that thisinquiry is critical for
(01:20):
maintaining one's humanity.
Oh, and if you're generousenough to be listening to these
conversations, I respectfullysubmit that at any point, if you
feel you understand what I'msaying, you're not listening
deeply enough.
Alright, so, so, so this, nowthe answer, so the entry point,
now this does get moremeaningfully into, into what
(01:41):
came up in, in, in this podcastinterview that I did.
And really, so the woman askedme, uh, uh, about my name.
And she said, so, A.
M., why, why, why, why, why doyou go up?
I'm just curious, why A.
M.?
Okay, cool.
We'll tell you why A.
M.
I don't think I've ever told thestory here.
So, you know, it'd be good.
Um, so when I was born, um, Ihad an older brother, um, who
(02:03):
died before I was born and hedied the way I tell the story
because it's accurate.
He dies from complications ofpoverty.
Um, he literally died of, um,uh, dehydration like his body
could get a bacterial thing.
There was no medicine.
And, you know, and so, um, Ayear after that, I'm born and in
the tradition and in the kind ofHinduism, or at least a version
(02:24):
of Hinduism, I was what's knownas a begged child.
When you have a child that dies,the next child that comes,
you've begged God for it.
It does not belong to you.
Kyley (02:33):
You're
am (02:33):
not allowed to buy clothing for it.
You're not allowed to buy toys,nothing for a year.
You can have people give youclothes, they have to be used.
You can have them give you toys,they have to be used.
You're not allowed to haveanything.
My name, my parents didn't giveme.
It was somebody else gave thename and some of the birthday
(02:54):
was Alpesh, right?
Now I love that name and thepeople, my family, my mother, my
sister, my family, India, that'swhat they call me.
And I like that identity likemeans something to me.
It's connected to a wholetradition on it, but I didn't
choose that identity.
I landed here and like, I canremember it like so vividly.
(03:16):
First day of class.
The teacher, like, Al! Welcome,Al! Because Al's a name they,
you know, it's an Italian area,you know, West David, New Haven
area, they knew Al.
And from that moment on, Al.
I know so many people who callme Al.
I'm totally cool with that name.
(03:36):
There's an identity associatedwith that name.
I didn't choose that identity.
A.
M., I've always put on mycreative work.
You know, like photography, andI've published a couple of
photography books and my actingAM.
And over the last few years,I've just decided to kind of
push that a little more.
Not because I dislike thosenames.
I value those identities.
(03:57):
And I'm okay with people callingme Opesh or Al.
Those are identities Iabsolutely have.
But they're not identities Ichose.
AM is the name for the identityI chose.
Right?
And so, so, you know, uh, uh,uh, I'm okay with that.
I indulged her question in, in,in, in the, in the podcast.
(04:18):
Um, at that level, you know,kind of the full story as
opposed to just giving her a, aquick thing, which is I normally
do because it, it was, it wasable to, uh, I was, because I
wanted to use it to, to open upa conversation about DAE.
It was like, you know, um,there's a, there's a, uh, um,
I'll send it to you guysoffline.
There's, um, the poet SaulWilliams.
(04:38):
Um.
He's like a poet, a writer, anda filmmaker.
He's a really amazing guy.
Um, there's a poem called CodedLanguage that I've always loved.
And, um, it's a video of himperforming it at Deaf Poets,
which is a show that he used tobe on.
Deaf Poets Jam.
Deaf Poetry or Deaf Poets Jam?
I don't know.
(04:59):
Um, Most deaf, uh, now known aswhen you see bay, he's the host
of it and it's just great.
That's some great people onthere.
Uh, anyway, in, in codedlanguage, he's got a line.
He says, we must allow ourchildren to name themselves so
they can claim themselves.
Right.
And so like I use that story ofmy name to kind of get into like
(05:19):
part of what you can look at,we're doing here is allowing
kids to name themselves.
Right.
As opposed to the names thatthey were given.
And metaphorical names, right?
You know, not that anyone inhere is going to change their
name necessarily.
Uh, so, so, uh, now I'm going toshut up and, and like, be
curious what, you know, yourkind of take is on this issue of
(05:41):
identity and naming yourself.
Not just like, like, becauseyou, you know, Mo, but when you
introduce me on stage, I want tobe known as mama.
Yeah.
Right.
Uh, so what's your relationshipto literally to name and, and
what that does for you, your K.
Yeah.
But you're not, right?
Yeah.
Um, and sometimes you're K Pinky.
Yeah.
(06:02):
Right?
And so, like, the relationship,like, the literally, like, name
and identity, but then even,like, software engineer, that's
a name, right?
Like, getting named that orchoosing to name yourself that.
And so I'm just curious, like,what you all see about, you
know, this kind of issue ofnaming yourself, naming other
people, and then what that does.
And then, you know, if you gotany thoughts on, like, what we
do here or what we do in, kindof, DAE and this whole, kind of,
(06:25):
naming and identity thing.
Kay Pinky (06:27):
Quick question.
Before we all get into that, thepart where.
You could, you know, yourparents couldn't name you
technology before we log intothat conversation.
It's great.
The part where your parentscouldn't name you, is that part
of the whole Hindu culturething?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Okay.
And is it, is it okay?
(06:48):
Um, the community has to nameyou or someone else else.
It was one of my aunts that, uh,uh, uh, that, that chose the
name.
So is it, is it anyone else orsomeone in your family or I, you
know, I honestly don't know.
am (06:59):
Uh, now I'm going to have to call my mom tonight and ask her.
I don't know.
I don't know if there's like a,like a certain protocol on that
or if it's just like the loudestvoice gets to impose the name,
you know, but basically theycouldn't name me.
Kay Pinky (07:12):
I thought that was interesting.
Yeah.
Um, yeah.
In a good way.
am (07:17):
Yeah.
So you're, you're kind of, youknow, you, you, you, it's, it's
like, you're, you're an orphanfor a year, basically.
It's like, I didn't raise you tokind of all but they can't.
You can't do anything they mightdo like if they quote unquote
own you like you can't provideanything because it's borrowed
might be taken back like yourlast one.
Kay Pinky (07:32):
Yeah, the opposite view is like, you know, paying
respect to like, you know,whatever religion, whatever God,
whatever God, you know, whateverit is, it's like more honoring
that thing.
You know, I mean, because,because your parents could have
said, you know, no, we're not,we're still going to go ahead
(07:52):
and name you.
Yeah.
Right.
But I guess it's, they did itwith thought and care, which,
which, which, which makes youspecial.
You know what I mean?
I mean, that's how I view it.
I'm just trying to, you know, Itry to put spins around stuff
and I always try to make itpositive.
But I'm thinking your parentscould have said, no, we're going
to name you.
You know, lots of people havedone that, but they went with it
(08:14):
and said, you know what, we'regoing to go with this religion
and the guy, whatever guidelinesand, and follow that.
Um, however we feel, because wethink that's the right thing to,
that meant they cared, caredabout you.
Yeah.
And that's why they did that.
And if everything went well,then you're here.
That's good.
You know what I mean?
And when you have that, then Iget it.
(08:36):
I'm going
am (08:36):
to pass along to my mom tonight when I ask her about,
about where the name came from.
Like this rule, I'm going to sayK approves.
Kay Pinky (08:43):
Yeah.
am (08:44):
I used to call you Al.
Yeah.
I didn't know anything about AM.
Kay Pinky (08:48):
It's what most people have called me, like most, most
Americans.
That's, yeah.
Actually, me, I asked him thisquestion today.
Uh, yesterday, yesterday.
And we're talking about, I toldyou, I said, I used to call you
Al, that it was, it was awkwardcalling you A.
M., and then now I've called youA.
M.
so many times, it's awkwardcalling you Al.
Names are very powerful, man.
Very, very powerful.
(09:08):
And I was like, Al, or what?
A.
M.
now.
Okay.
So back to the question.
Yeah.
am (09:18):
What's in a name, as the Bard said?
Kyley (09:21):
Interesting.
My story is similar anddifferent to yours in the way
that I mean, I got my name.
My name is Kylie.
It is, I didn't understand thename, I think, until I was at a
playground one time.
Clearly didn't understand,understand Stranger Danger, but
this woman was calling my name.
And so I ran over to her, and I,her like, daughter showed up at
(09:42):
the same time as me, talking tothis child.
And I'm like, it's like, mybrain is processing.
What's happening here andunderstanding that my name is
traditionally used in the femalecontext.
And so I've had the other waywhere like people trying to
switch to Kyle.
I'm like, nah, nope, my name ismy name or they switch my
gender.
It's like I was in the girls gymclass.
(10:03):
I was signed up with the girlsgym class my freshman year
because they transitioned mygender in the records.
Because one of those things hadto be wrong.
And clearly the name was, wasmore accurate.
And so I've, I have.
Refuse to take on nicknames Andall of those things are like my
name is kylee and you will callme by my name.
Yeah
Mo (10:26):
Yeah for me um So i'm named after my grandpa on my mom's
side Uh, he in senegal like thecosmos region.
They're like really religious.
So he's what you call sharif Um,so he like studies quran.
Yeah, so I guess it was likesome pressure me like always
doing well in like quran schoolor sunday school You Uh, but I
(10:49):
would say I've been fortunateenough to like, whatever I chose
to do, they were just, they justtold me to make sure you do it
well.
Um, I think that's the onlything, and then Mo came from my
elementary school teacher, MissW.
She just read, it was the firstday of school, she read the
attendance, she was like,Mohammed, Mohammed, is it an ED
or a TH?
And people were just telling me,I think you're supposed to have
an ED at the end or a TH.
(11:10):
My dad said it's like a Frenchway of saying it, I don't know.
But she asked me, can I call youMo?
And I was like, Ooh, that soundscool.
I was like, I was like, yeah,you can call me Mo.
And everyone started calling meMo.
Um, and I guess that, thestudents started thinking that
was my name.
So they all just ended upcalling me Mo.
Um, and I guess after getting tocollege, I think people started
saying, uh, Mo Sec.
(11:30):
And I didn't like that part.
I was like, no, it's just anickname.
Just be like Mo and thenMohammed Sec.
So when they started putting mynickname to my last name, I was
like, I'm not really feelingthat.
Yeah.
Um, but no, I,
am (11:48):
it's fascinating.
I never put that together, butactually I had the same
experience, but I never realizedthat until literally just the
moment.
Like I was totally fine with Al.
I still am fine with Al when Isee Al Bot.
I hate it.
I, I, I have a reaction to it.
Like, like it's just, it's, Idon't know what that is.
Mo (12:07):
Do you have a sense of what that is to you?
am (12:09):
Uh.
Mo (12:11):
It's a title.
It goes back to the title.
It's like Muhammad.
It's like it's on paperwork.
It's on like, um, Also themeaning of where it comes from,
from like named after my grandpaand the influence he has out
there, but it's like, at thesame time, it's like, it's a,
it's a nickname.
It's like something you say forshort, and it feels like you're
like shortening my title, youknow,
Kyley (12:31):
I've never heard of a name and title being put
together.
And that's really interesting.
And this part of my name, like,this is my title name.
This is the thing that is myidentity.
Mo (12:41):
I think it carries more weight.
Yeah.
Because when you say Dr.
King, it's like, all right,that's cool, Martin Luther King,
but if you say Dr.
Martin Luther King Jr., it'slike a whole, like that carries
a lot of weight.
am (12:52):
So, so in, in, in, again, in the kind of version of Hinduism,
the subset, the cast, all that,uh, your middle names are
actually the male, I mean, verypatriarchal, right?
So, so technically my name, likemy middle name on my paperwork
is Madhusudana, which is myfather's name, but my actual
name.
Is Alpesh Madhusudan, myfather's name, Shiv Shankar, his
(13:13):
father's name, uh, Krishnallal,his father's name.
Like, and so you, as manygenerations back as you can go,
those are all your middle names.
It's all the male, you keep yourmale lineage in your, so in
terms of titles, like it's afamily title.
Cause Bhatt, you know, there area lot of people that have Bhatt.
That's the last name, right?
Like Johnson or whatever room.
Um, and then that lineage ofyour names.
(13:35):
I was like, yeah, this is theparticular thread.
This is the, you know, thetitle.
This is the house.
This is the whatever.
Uh, kind of, it's that kind offeel to it.
Is this someone who has a reallylong name
Kay Pinky (13:45):
name?
Yeah,
am (13:45):
but as you think all of our names though themselves, like my
father said, well, deuces done.
It's like all the names are 14lettered along names.
And then you got like 14 ofthose, right?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Big signature is a very, uh, uh,problematic thing.
Kay Pinky (13:59):
I hear Patel a lot.
Patel.
Yeah.
I hear it a lot.
am (14:02):
Where do I go?
Yeah.
It's a particular region.
It's the region I'm from.
Actually.
Uh, Patel is a pretty commonname.
Mo (14:11):
Some of the, they also, the last names are also like extra
groups.
So like, uh, SEC, like when Iwent to the airport, I, I told
him, they said, you read myname.
It's like Muhammad's psych.
It was like, you sound like Aliis because usually people with
SEC are more dark skin.
Right.
My mom.
So they were like, okay, you'resick.
All right, cool.
What's, what's your mom's lastname?
And then we say, I doubt it.
(14:31):
Like, Oh, okay.
That makes sense.
Cause it's like a, what's itcalled?
Casting?
Yeah.
Like cast system or something.
Yeah.
Well, yeah.
My middle name is Fidel.
It also comes from my grandpa.
So I'm starting to like Fideltoo.
Like I'm cool with peoplecalling me Fidel now.
I'm like, I like, that's all itis.
No, it's great.
It's like, um, I don't know.
(14:52):
It's like a, It's kind of coolto, like, change your identity
sometimes.
So, like, moving forward, it'slike, Alright, someone's calling
me Fidel.
It's like, alright, that's cool.
It's like a new chapter, a newbeginning type of thing.
Yeah?
Kay Pinky (15:07):
Yeah.
Yeah.
For me?
See, I have a lot of names.
Honestly, you don't even knowall of them.
I didn't know his is Kwame.
That's a whole different thing.
I didn't even know that.
am (15:20):
This is the first time I'm hearing that one.
Okay.
Kay Pinky (15:22):
Well, so, so Kwame, everyone has a, so based on the
day you were born, you have a, aname.
Okay?
Everyone, if you're born, ifyou're born on a Saturday, you
have a Kwame, uh, title.
So there are lots of Kwame.
If you see, if you see anyonecalled Kwame, they are born on
Saturday.
You see, see someone called, uh,hear someone called Kofi.
That's a Friday.
There's a name for a malefemale.
That's cool as a title.
(15:42):
Everyone has that title.
So both of my brother and Iwe're Kwame.
Um, there's a basketball playercalled Kwame Black or whatever,
Kwame Brown.
He, he's born on a Saturday.
You can just tell.
Um, so there's that, that's,that's that.
And then, um, and then my actualname is Kakra.
That's just the title of a youngtwin.
Yeah.
The youngest.
And that's, that's what I grewup, you know, being called
(16:04):
Kakra.
Like, and I hear that I, I hearme and then, you know, It's,
it's like a, a, a hip thing forpeople to call it, you know, p,
p and K, or K and p.
And so my mom would call us,Hey, P and k, you know, or, or
cock like, like, she wouldn't gocock and pain like, like, you
know, KP just to be like hip orfancy about it.
(16:25):
And so I, I got attached thatbecause I, I realized it was a
thing, you know, people werehappy, you know, using that name
and, and, but, but I always wasconnected to Carra, right?
So in the back of my mind, I'mlike, okay, K, all right, it's
cool and all that.
But I'm, I'm connected to Carraand then.
And over time, you know, it wasused more and more, like I was
like, Anytime I'm introducingmyself, I would always say
(16:46):
Kakra, but people would alwayscall me K.
I'm like, okay.
It was always confusing to me,like, if you call me K, Like, it
took me some time to be okaywith the fact that, You know, on
my passport, you're never goingto see K on it, but people
identify, Like, see me as K.
There's so many times whereyou're like, wait, what's your
(17:08):
name?
You know, is it Atakaka?
Like, where does the K comefrom?
I don't see K anywhere, so I gotused to that.
Um, yeah, so that's a long storyof, you know, kind of, how I
kind of accepted that.
But, Kpinky, though, that's aninteresting one.
So, back in 2014, 2013, 2015,there was a cryptocurrency
exchange called Poloniex.
(17:30):
Right, it was the first of itskind.
It had a chatbox called theTrollbox, first of its kind.
It was the best in the world,and just a regular chatbox.
And then you, before you signup, you pick an alias, and I
actually pick Kakra or K,something like that.
And then, they had a feature inthere, when anytime you tip
someone, you actually becomepink.
(17:50):
Right, so you come, like it's ashade of pink, and you have to
really tip to get to the highestlevel.
Like, it could take you twoyears to get there.
And, um, I went crazy with that,that chat.
I really went crazy.
I was tipping left and right.
Um, cause, you know, I kindalike that stuff.
And I got really, really pink onthe site.
Probably like one of the, maybeout of maybe like 10 people out
(18:11):
of like millions on the, in theshow box.
I was really pink.
I post a message.
Everyone knows I'm in the, I'min the, I'm there.
It's like, Hey, you know, andthen I'm like, Oh, this is
actually cool.
And then I asked them what themoderate is.
They were, they were purple.
Everyone else was gray or, uh,or white.
Some people.
And I said, Hey, can you, canyou just add pinky to my name?
It's like, um, sure.
(18:32):
And then he's changed my name.
Instantly.
My name changed to Kate Pinky.
I'm like, this is really cool,you know, the fact that I could
fire name, you know, it's like,but actually, so, so I was like,
it's really cool.
The fact that it's attached tothat idea of me given was cool.
And also like, you know,religiously, like we believe in
giving a lot, you know, um, somepeople like to think given you
(18:55):
shall receive, but I just thinkgiving is just a good thing,
right?
So I was like, Oh, this isactually all works together.
So I started introducing myselfas K Pinky, my online game,
online names, game names,whatever, K Pinky everywhere.
And I really, really, I'm happywhen people call me K Pinky for
that reason.
And I also used to like thecolors black and blue and gray a
(19:15):
lot.
Those are the only colors that Ilike.
I was like, I'll wear all thethings, but I defaulted out.
My mom takes us to the store.
What do you like?
I want the black box.
And my mom was like, choose,choose colors.
And I really, really liked that.
And it took, took me a while tolike, to kind of like, like
colors in general.
So, pink was like, also taggedas a girly thing.
(19:36):
So I was like, you know what?
I like the color pink.
And then I, I, I discoveredblue.
And I discovered, you know, red.
And I'm like, colors aregenuinely great.
You saw me build that websiteone time with a bunch of colors.
I looked at that thing.
I'm like, whoa, this is actuallygreat.
And so, um, I, I, I got used tothat idea of just like colors in
general, paying closer first,and then, and then that.
(19:56):
I know, all this stuff is notconnected, I'm just talking
right now.
But, um, I really like K Pinky,I like K, I've just accepted the
fact that, you know, it's whatit is.
As long as it has some meaningto, to it, um, it makes people
happy, I'm happy, I'm good.
You know, as long as it has somemeaning.
People still know, some peoplecall me Kakra, some people call
me K Pinky, Kiko, Kiko because Iused to play games a lot and I
(20:18):
beat everyone.
Um, and so, and so that nameKiko became a thing of like a
competition.
That's why I'm always like, youknow, competitive and
everything.
Cause like they used to give mefun.
I keep going and I feel great.
And I, you know what I mean?
So that's why I actually plan tocall that ping pong league one
day, one day in Ghana, ping pongleague, the Kiko league.
So I talk too much.
(20:38):
I need to work on that.
am (20:39):
It's just fascinating to me though, because it is, it's,
it's, it's this thing.
Like.
So you have all these names thatare tied to different identities
that you value, right?
And they kind of mean differentthings and different, I'm
fascinated by the, uh, uh, I'venever heard this and I don't
think we, I mean, we're, youknow, we do everything complex
in India that's, you know,around, uh, uh, stuff like this.
(21:00):
And, and we, I don't think weeven do this, like you have a
day for the name of the weekyou're born, right?
So you've got a day for yourbirth order.
And down to the specificity, ifwe even have a word for if
you're a twin and you're theyounger of the twin, like that
is hyper specific
Kay Pinky (21:15):
identity naming, right?
Yeah, there are lots of peoplewith my name.
There are lots of people with myfirst two names, Atakaka.
Kyley (21:22):
Yeah.
Kay Pinky (21:22):
Like all younger twins have that title.
And also there's a thing, if yougo to high school, like first
year is like your initiation.
Everyone gets a nickname by yourschool father, which happens to
be a senior.
You don't choose, they pick you.
Your school father picks you.
So just a senior person and theygive you that name.
Um, and like, I'm going to callyou enzyme.
Cause I studied general sciencein high school.
(21:46):
Yeah.
It's the thing you say.
And, and you're like, you knowwhat?
We're going to call him enzyme.
And everyone was like, Oh, andsince then high school, They
don't call you by any othername.
They go by Enzyme.
Enzyme.
Your close friends will come inand call you Kakra or K.
But Enzyme was a thing, it was aname.
Um, and so sometimes I go toGhana, there are people who will
(22:07):
see me and go, Enzyme! And I'llturn around and everyone knows
it's me.
Or someone will call me Kakra orK.
Or Kaki, you know, or Kikok, youknow, or.
Whatever, whatever.
So they use all these names, butI, I, I, I connect to all of
them because they all have astory.
Yeah.
And I'm okay with that.
am (22:23):
It's, it's, I, I reminded you last summer, or I guess
maybe it was like fall, I, um,uh, ran into somebody that I
have not seen since college.
Like it's been like decades.
And, um, It's like, Oh my God,Stu, is that because I was known
back then as Stu.
I had a girlfriend in, um, uh,senior year in high school and,
(22:47):
and I had this like beat up old,uh, uh, Chevy to chocolate Brown
Chevy Nova black bench seats.
It was great.
It was, it was like broken downthree days out of seven, but I
loved that car.
Um, I bought it for 500 bucksand had a track player in it.
This is well past the eighttrack era, but that's what this
car had in it.
And so, like, I scrounged, youknow, eight tracks, like, I find
them, and I had, like, six,eight tracks that would just
(23:09):
rotate, but one of them was, uh,uh, Led Zeppelin, uh, actually,
two of them were, were LedZeppelin albums, uh, and there
was a song, I think it's onPhysical Graffiti, uh, called
Boogie With Stu, and I, forwhatever reason, that summer, I
loved that song, and I played itall the time, and the girl I was
dating at the time just startedcalling me Stu, and that was
senior year, and I went off tocollege, and I got to, like,
(23:30):
like, remember so vividlywalking into the dorm, and And
like, you know, on the, on the,on the dorm, you know, uh, on,
on my room, it had Alpesh but,and you know, my roommate, uh,
who's going to be good and walkin and they're like, you know,
uh, so what should we call you?
I was like, Oh, my name is Stu.
And so for everybody that knowsme from UConn and from that era,
(23:51):
Stu is the only four years I'veever used that name.
And there's an identity attachedto it.
There's a way of walkingattached to it.
There's a certain.
Like, like Stu was, was sort ofin the vein of, you know, like,
like, uh, I don't know if thesereferences make it, but yeah, it
was like Neal Cassidy and, uh,uh, Charles Bukowski and, and,
and Jim Morrison.
(24:12):
Stu was living that lifestyle.
Highly creative, but highlyintense and highly, yeah.
And so anyway, so, so this last,like, fall, I see this person,
like, just again, random, it'slike, Stu, is that, you know,
like, I had this, like, sciencefiction moment where like I
almost felt my body changebecause I hadn't thought about
the identity so long but I sawthis person I knew from that era
(24:33):
called me that name that namewas a trigger and also I'm like
back the feeling what that feltlike and you know it's just a
wildest thing and you got like40 of those it sounds like yeah
Kay Pinky (24:45):
I go well yeah but but it's it's a it's a cool
thing because like it's just forme it's one of the things that
make me happy you Um, and I, I'mlike, I'm not going to force it.
Um, it, it has a, you know, I,you, you can, you can tell
people you're this, but like,they're going to call you
whatever they want to call you.
And, uh, I, I have this mindsetof like in life, I don't force
(25:07):
anything, you know, like, um,things are just gonna work
themselves out, be like water.
So I, I've, I've, I've stuck tothat.
Even when my, my, my body, my,my mind, whatever is telling me,
okay, do something about it.
Fight it.
I just let go.
Uh, because I really believe injust like letting loose, um, and
you know, so I just let it be,but, but doing that every single
(25:31):
one of those names, like theyhave a story behind it.
Um, and it's like, okay, youknow, it's, it reminds me of a
certain time in my life thatthis happened in time.
I laughed at this happen.
And, um, yeah.
But do it.
So it's funny, right?
During the serious times, peoplecall me certain names.
During the times I'm playingvideo games, they call me this,
(25:51):
you know.
During the sad times, they callme this.
Like, when my mom died, no onecalled me, no one called me Kay
Pinky.
Or no
one called me, uh, you know, this, you know.
Someone's about to crack a joke,they use the funny one, kaki,
you know, and someone's about totalk about video games, and I
win, it's like, oh, kiko, youknow, when I go to high school,
um, we, you know, actually went,went back, went, went to one
(26:13):
when I went to Ghana, you know,a while ago, it's like all the
old students come back, uh, andthen they all call me Enzyme, no
one called me by my name, soEnzyme, you know, they're
introducing me Enzyme, or he wasthe this, he was the that, um.
And then over here, it's getPinky, you know, but we don't
need to get Pinky all the time.
Right.
You know, sometimes I try tojust push it and everything, but
Mo (26:32):
you just reminded me of like, when my mom's like, like
mad or like trying to get myattention, she'll say my first
and my middle name.
That's her dad's name.
So she's like Muhammad Fadal.
Like she's really trying to getmy attention.
Oh, what do y'all think aboutpeople calling you by your last
name as if it was your first?
I had a soccer coach who calledmostly everyone on the team by
their last name.
(26:53):
Um, I thought it was, I'venever, and that caught me off
guard cause I was like, justcall me like Sec or it'll be
like, uh, Sanchez.
And I thought that was like amilitary thing.
I don't know if he was in themilitary, but that, that, that
was, I was okay with that.
That was fine with me.
Kyley (27:06):
I've been in football too, playing sports.
It's very confusing when youcall someone's like, I had a
friend named Flood and it callshouse.
It's a whole family's flood.
So, it's flood there.
You're like, what?
It's music outside of thatspecific area of conversation.
am (27:26):
Grad students do this for some reason.
And just, it took me years toget used to it.
And just, and they're comingfrom everywhere.
They're coming from around theworld.
They're coming from around thecountry.
And they call a professor, theycall me Ba.
Like, I'm like, like, it doesn'tbother me.
It doesn't, it's just like, sodisconcerting though.
(27:46):
Um, I don't know where it comesfrom.
I don't know why it's like justa norm in, in, in that
environment.
But it is to this day, I guessstudents, you know, there's
just, he's laughing, nothingelse.
No professor bot, no, you know,no first name.
It's just bot.
Even in emails, it's theweirdest thing is emails start
bot comma.
Do you know where I can findthat?
Kay Pinky (28:08):
weird it for me.
Like I grew up like thinkingthat if you're trying to be
respectful or professional Yeah.
Like people use it all the time,Mr.
But or Mr.
Sec.
So for me, I just do it when I'mjust either trying to be like,
just like, uh, like when I sayto mom, I'm just trying to be
respectful to my friend.
There's something about itthat's just a little funny.
(28:29):
But do you put mister in frontof it sometimes?
Just to be funny though, right?
Not because.
I really, you know, I'm goingwith the mystery.
am (28:35):
It makes sense to me, but just the last name to a
stranger.
It feels weird.
Kay Pinky (28:40):
Yeah
Mo (28:41):
Yeah, not bad.
Just weird.
And it might be too much fromthe side of my side coach today,
but I was like, it's prettycool.
Um, there was a student in thefirst summer camp.
We used to call me Mr.
Mohammed.
I forgot his name.
You probably remember.
I probably
do.
I think he was in the video.
He was in the arts and ideas.
We'd be like, Mr.
Mohammed, excuse me, Mr.
Mohammed.
He was the only one that calledme Mr.
Mohammed.
Kay Pinky (29:02):
I don't, I don't, I don't relate to my, my last
name.
I mean, I use it less.
I don't connect to it.
Um, interesting.
If I was to pick, I, I'll pickthat last even weird.
My dad made lots of mistakeswhen he was doing this paperwork
stuff messed up our birthday on,done it.
So now I'm stuck to the 21st,which is not rule my, my rule
birthday every time they ask me.
Wait.
Yeah, yeah.
(29:23):
Wait, what?
So what are your two birthdays?
My actual birthday is the 23rdof December.
For some reason I don't, no,it's not.
Is it?
My actual birthday is the 23rd.
We did talk about this.
Yeah.
We have the same birthday.
I don't know how he messed up 1and 3.
It's not like 1 and 7.
You know, they're close.
But 1 and 3.
How do you mess it up?
So, it's both in December.
Well, yeah.
So, he put December 21st, andthat's what's on file in the
(29:45):
passport.
So, we can't mess that up.
It's going to be a wholeprocess.
So, alright.
So, I told my wife, I'm like,whatever you do, 21st, okay?
When you're interviewing you andyou're coming here, it's the
21st.
We do practice, you know, it'slike, oh, what's my birthday?
And it's like, it's like 21st.
That's great.
You know?
That's epic.
Um, So 21st on paper, I'm soused to that right now, but my
actual birthday is the 23rd andthat's when I actually
(30:06):
celebrate.
It's actually perfect, becauseeveryone wishes me a happy
birthday on the 21st, so Iaccept it.
But on the 23rd, I'm just alone,I'm like, yeah.
You know, and the people, theOGs in Ghana, the ones actually
calling me like, happy birthday,I'm like, yeah, you know, you
know.
Um, but the last name, Di tom,uh, Di tom, Di tom, I even
forgot how to pronounce it, Idon't relate to it.
Even where my dad, my dad forgotone of his last names to ours.
(30:29):
And so when he was doing thepaperwork, he was afraid that
they're going to say, okay,that's not your son.
So he had to, in high school,add that other name.
I don't know if some of you haveseen it as an H E N O U N,
Hennon, you know, I don't evenknow how to pronounce it.
I don't connect to that name atall.
I looked, I saw that name.
They posted in high school.
They announced it to everyone.
There's a name change.
So my friends were like, Hey,someone actually had to come to
(30:49):
class and tell me, Hey, yourname has changed.
I'm like, what are you talkingabout?
So I went to the notice boardand it says, This person's name
has changed to Dittomi Hennon orwhatever.
That's my dad's.
Uh, he's kind of half a Benin orsome Haruts or whatever.
As soon as I became a citizen, Iremoved that name ASAP.
And I just stuck to D TOMMYbecause D TOMMY is what I grew
up with.
So I removed that H E N O U andoff.
(31:10):
There are still some debit cardsand credit cards and, um, old
passports that have that name.
It's all gone.
So it's now Atakaka D TOMMY anddone.
I don't relate to that.
Like what?
It's just added.
Halfway through my life, there'sno, no stories.
No, no, no connections.
No, nothing.
And when the name like that isadded to my name, I see no
point.
am (31:32):
But you said you don't have a relationship to, to, to, to
Datome either, right?
Like that doesn't have a big
Kay Pinky (31:36):
Yeah, I
am (31:36):
don't, yeah.
Is that a cultural thing?
Is that like others in, inGhana?
Like the, the, because all, allthese other names have so many
specific anchor points foridentity that the last name
isn't a big deal?
Kay Pinky (31:46):
Well, it's also, it's also like, um, My, my mother
doesn't have that last name.
Marriage issues, right?
So, didn't have that.
My mother has a different lastname.
I would, I would have loved mymother's last name because I,
because I grew up with mymother.
I didn't grow up with my dad.
I didn't see my dad until I was10 years of age.
Yeah.
Because he was here.
Um, that's what I'm trying toprevent.
The reason why I haven't goneinto kids because of that.
(32:07):
I'm trying to prevent that,right?
Because my wife's still there.
I don't want my kid to not seeme for 10 But yeah, he didn't
see him for 10 years.
I did.
I'm up to now, you know, I amtrying to bridge that gap with
my dad by being friendly withhim by watching sports with him
or like making jokes because ithasn't been there.
And so there's no, there was nota lot of connection to that
(32:29):
name.
I still like him.
You know, he's my dadregardless.
Um, so I left the detail mebecause it's still part of his
name.
But the Henon, like what highschool, like halfway through my
life or no, I know I'm nothalfway through my life, but a
significant period of my life.
He added name that I have noconnection to the thank God for
American citizen thing.
You could remove it and choosewhatever name you want.
(32:51):
I was like, please, I'm notchanging.
Just remove that one.
Stick to Africa.
Could you tell me my 20 years or25 years or whatever?
Let's just, let's just continuewith that.
And, um, yeah, my dad still hasthat name.
You can have it.
It's fine.
It's all good that I didn'tconnect it at all.
am (33:10):
There's a distinction actually between kind of label
and name.
Right, so that, that, that, thatsecond last name you got wasn't,
didn't exist as name for you.
It exists as a label.
Kay Pinky (33:19):
Yeah, yeah, the label.
With no connection, no feeling,no interest.
The D tomy, I had a lot ofmemories of it in school.
People were using it.
People would call it Mr.
D tomy and people would makejokes with it.
Like, I have a connection withit.
If I don't have a connectionwith the name, it's pointless.
Every other name I have aconnection with.
Gaming, crypto, you know, Kaki,you know.
(33:40):
Yeah.
There's a, you know, even thekhaki shorts, like, you know,
khaki, the brown, whatever.
Sure.
There's a connection with thatwhere people, people, anytime
someone, we used to wear that inhigh school, everyone, um,
they'll, they'll, they'll say,hey, go work, go work, you know,
K shorts or khaki shorts.
And they'll all point to me.
Like, there's a connection to itsomehow, you know what I mean?
(34:01):
I still need to work on mytalking.
Can't help it.
Which part?
Stopping or cutting it down, butit's not, it looks like it's not
going to happen.
I'm actually trying to keep itlow now, keep it down.
Mo (34:13):
A principal in like, um, middle school.
Um, I forgot his last name, buthe, he has a doctor title.
So he made sure everyone alwaysreferred to him as doctor
instead of principal.
So like, that was hissubstitute.
I forgot what his last name was,but.
He didn't, he didn't, he didn'twant to be principal of
something, he wanted to be adoctor of something.
And we were asking like, what'sthe, why?
He was like, because I workedhard for it.
am (34:33):
That's my title.
There's a, um, this amazingwoman I met, I'm still connected
to her on, on LinkedIn, like,you know, 10 or 12 years ago at
a event in, in Atlanta.
Uh, it was an Enneagram event,which, which we have to do
Enneagram in here at some point.
Um, it was an Enneagram event.
And, um, because we're oncamera, I won't say her actual
(34:54):
name, I'll change it, but sheintroduced herself.
My name is Dr.
Johnson.
Right.
In this group, kind of going,okay, Dr.
Johnson.
And then later, we'll kind of,you know, more casual, and I see
the name tag says Dr.
Johnson on the name tag.
And I said, oh, so what's yourfirst name?
What should I call you?
She goes, Doctor.
I said, oh, okay.
Anyway, turns out that's herfirst name.
(35:15):
Oh, wow.
Her father.
Hold on.
Her father.
Deep South.
Black man, and had been throughsome shit apparently, right?
He had seven kids, named one ofthem Doctor, was the first name,
named another one Lawyer, namedanother one.
(35:37):
His thinking was that just totalk to you, they're going to
have to give you a label ofrespect.
And then you're going to holdyourself to that standard.
So from birth, like you are Dr.
Johnson.
Because that's your potential inthe world.
From birth, you are LawyerJohnson.
Kyley (35:53):
Wow.
am (35:53):
Because that's your, so all her siblings have these names
that are titles, as first names.
Because this thing was like, youwill, like talk about powerful,
claiming a name, right?
Like a name, claiming anidentity, claiming a place,
claiming a dignity, claiming andall that.
It's pretty, pretty spectacular.
And she, man, she owned it.
You know, whether it was justfluke or whatever, I attribute
(36:13):
it to, you know, that, thatupbringing and that name.
That, like, she was, she had a.
magnificence about her becausethis is somebody who like spent
her life like I am here, youknow, not in an ego way, but
like I am here.
It's just beautiful.
Was she an actual doctor?
So she was PhD.
Mo (36:29):
Oh,
am (36:29):
so she can go to medical rep.
She got a PhD.
So she's technically Dr.
Dr.
Johnson.
I was just about to say,
Mo (36:34):
you call it Dr.
Doctor?
Yeah.
I was going to ask, so if it wasjust her first name, did she
just have the D R in her lastname?
am (36:41):
No, it was Dr.
D O C T.
It was actually, let me ask herfirst because she spelled it
out.
And I was like, oh, so what'syour first name?
Oh, the first name?
Kay Pinky (36:47):
That's cool.
I think there have been peoplewho've gotten two PhDs and they
actually are called Dr.
Doctor.
And so if this person got twoPhDs, you call them Dr.
Dr.
Dr.
Johnson.
That's intense right there.
am (37:00):
Yeah, yeah, it's, so, so, so, so what about the kids then?
Like, what, what, what, we don'tovertly pay attention to this.
Like, we're really like, we areovertly like, okay, what do you
want to be called when you'rehere?
What do we, so we kind ofovertly pay attention to it that
way.
But I'm curious if you guys seeanything, um, that emerges
(37:21):
around people kind of moredeeply claiming their name.
Like, anything at one.
I won't say names, uh, out, outin Stanford.
Yeah.
Very much kind of, you know, with us, I think before with
anybody else, it seemed like,claimed a name.
Kyley (37:35):
At least organizationally.
am (37:36):
Yeah.
Kyley (37:39):
The thing that I think strikes me most is the confusion
around the question sometimes.
Or it's like, what do you wantus to call you?
Well, people call me this.
Yeah, yeah.
Well, what do you want us tocall you?
I don't know.
And that's.
Cool, think about it.
Let me, let me know what you,what you want to be called and
we'll, that's what we'll worktowards.
(37:59):
Yeah.
Kay Pinky (38:00):
I've actually heard that specifically as a student.
Kyley (38:02):
Yeah.
I don't, I don't know.
Um, I've actually had an adultstudent come in.
I was like, what do you, I canjust be called anything here?
And they're like, yeah, you,you, think about it.
I don't know.
Well, I want to be here.
Kay Pinky (38:18):
It's also interesting because like this, uh, this has
become a space where they'recomfortable saying.
Call me this, uh, but when, whenthis, when my parents are here,
don't call me
Kyley (38:31):
this, you
Kay Pinky (38:32):
know, that's interesting, that's really
interesting.
am (38:42):
It's, it's, it's, it's a really big deal to name
yourself, you know, to likeactually name yourself, um,
which isn't about changing yourname necessarily, right?
But naming yourself and, andwhat we see happening in the
world in a very positive way.
And then.
You know, unfortunate backlashjust to a people naming
themselves in terms of theirgender identity and their sexual
identity all that like that,that to me is the process I'm
(39:03):
naming yourself like I am, youknow, and this is how this is
the, the, the, you know, theidentity container that you will
reference me in, right?
Very powerful.
Um, and yet still very foreign.
Yeah.
Mo (39:28):
Some, some students who like, uh, were set on going that
tech career path that like,sometimes I would, I would, if
they do group projects, I'd belike, Oh, so you're like the
front engineer, you're a projectmanager, you're the back end.
And they would actually like,like, yeah, yeah, I am.
Yeah, I'm, I'm doing this rolefor my project.
Yeah, you can call me the backend engineer for this group.
So sometimes take ownership ofthe.
(39:48):
Potential titles they might havein the careers they might
choose.
Kyley (39:51):
So I actually have a deep set of version to that.
Cause I, my dad, I built a bunchof cool stuff out of connects.
And I was like nine.
I remember the moment I waslike, man, you could be an
engineer.
And since then I'm like, I couldbe an engineer.
And it wasn't like I could be anengineer.
Like it's possibility.
It's like, this is like anidentity that was placed on me
that continued to manifestthroughout my lifetime.
(40:14):
And like, uh, I am.
And I didn't like it.
I have those skill sets, but Idon't want to be an engineer.
And I've, I've, I've tried to bereally careful with that
sometimes.
I think, how do you make it seeas possibility without putting a
developing mind into this is nowa, now your thing.
am (40:34):
So I told the story on, on, on, on Wednesday as well, on the
podcast, I had that exact sameexperience, Kylie.
And I got like, you know, it'slike, If you get born, if you're
like 200 years ago, and you getborn big, like just genetically,
you know, by the time you're 14,you're 6'4 and you don't do
anything but you just put onmuscle, like you have a certain
(40:57):
physical capability.
And if people tell you that,yeah, you got born with that
physical capability, and youshould lead with that, right?
You should be a warrior.
You should be a, you should takeover the community.
You should, right?
pretty dysfunctional.
As opposed to you have access tothat and now you got to decide
how you want to use it.
Well, in the era I got born intoand that we still get, you know,
(41:19):
some going on, it's not, you gotborn physical, you got born
smart, quote unquote.
So I got tagged early on asreally smart.
Like that whole gifted kind oflabel, right?
They made me take IQ tests, thewhole deal.
Put me in the math classes andthere was, I can remember it so
vividly and it was done withsuch like positivity.
(41:40):
A, uh, seventh grade teachergave me the name human computer.
The computer, I've heard you usethat before.
And, and, but she like, youthought she was like supporting
this great thing.
This capability.
I have, I was taking calculusclasses in junior high school.
Like, you know, like, like a precalc in junior high school, uh,
finished calculus, like freshmanyear of high school.
(42:01):
So they did all my college calc,right?
It's great.
Human computer.
Like she thinks she'sacknowledging something great.
And I was miserable.
Yeah.
Because, like, what I wanted, when I had time, like,
I'm reading literature.
I'm watching as many movies as Ican.
I'm reading poetry.
I'm like, you know, wonderingwhere the philosophy books are
once I understand whatphilosophy is, right?
(42:24):
But everything around me is likethis, this, this.
And it was for me, I had ascholarship in physics.
Uh, it, uh, yeah, physics atRensselaer coming out of
college.
And like, that was supposed tobe my life.
And I had a literal freak outpanic breakdown after high
school graduation.
And I called them and said, I'mnot coming.
Thank you for the scholarship.
(42:45):
My immigrant parents totallylost their shit.
They're paying for you to gothere! And you cancel it! You
know, I, I, you know, you guysthought, it was like, what?
And I went off and studied, youknow, Chinese philosophy,
actually, Stu went off andstudied Chinese philosophy and
(43:06):
world music.
Because that was Stu.
That was a young kid.
But, but the exact same series,like this thing of people,
everybody doing it out of goodintentions, out of a desire for
me to be successful.
All nobody trying to oppress me.
And
I was horribly miserable because like, because I'm good
at it, that's what I have to do.
(43:28):
Even though I have no juice forit, that's what life is going to
be.
It was like, it's horrible.
It's horrible.
Horrible, horrible.
Yeah.
But we do that to people, you know, so it's like you're
gifted, you're just, that's, youknow, that's what you should do.
Kyley (43:44):
That's why, I mean, that's why I like the way you do
projects.
It's like, cool, you, you are,you are coding, but you're doing
this.
Like coding is, it's apaintbrush.
It's a, it's a whatever.
Make the thing you care about,the thing that matters to you.
That's, that's closer to who youare, who you're going to be than
the skills that we're teachingyou in this place and time.
Kay Pinky (44:04):
I'm thinking out loud like that.
Our students, when they'reworking on projects, especially
a team project, we say go pickup roles and, and they come up
back and they say, Oh, I'm the,I'm the CEO or whatever.
I'm the, I'm the owner or like,I'm the product project manager.
And these are names alreadycreated out there.
So they look, they look up theseroles and these are, these are
not their name.
(44:24):
Yeah.
And you can claim it as theirs.
These are not the names.
But when you were introducingScott, you said organizational.
I love that.
I love that.
Um, Picture in a scenario.
I know you gave it to Scott, butI'm picturing a scenario where
Scott comes in.
I forgot what the previous rulewas called.
Um, media, whatever.
Let's just say somethingprofessional media manager or
(44:46):
something.
And then you, this is a mepicture in a scenario where you
give it to Scott and Scott says,are you hired?
You're our new media manager.
And Scott says, all right,respectfully, I have one last
request.
I would love for you to call methe organization.
That speaks to several level ofconfidence.
Of you claiming your name rightthere, like, I think every
(45:07):
manager, every CEO would, evenif they don't approve it, would
just be fascinated and go like,Hmm, that's really interesting
the fact that you could makethat claim on the day you're
getting an offer.
You know, you're putting yourjob on the line to say what, you
know, you're trying to do.
I think that's a certain levelof confidence.
And that's like a, an example ofsomeone claiming a name right
there.
Kyley (45:27):
It's
Kay Pinky (45:27):
like I meet a manager, great, but I see myself
as an organization, I startedtelling If it works, we do as a
company.
Let's work out something.
I don't like this media managerthing.
am (45:37):
So this, this, this gets at the, the kind of, for me, the
core kind of dysfunction of, of,of what we've done to work and,
and organization, right?
Media manager is a machine partname, right?
It's a name, but it's a machinepart name.
It connects to the transactionsthat you're accountable for.
(45:59):
And by implication, theperformance standards that will
allow you to keep that name.
Right.
Something like organizationalstoryteller points you a value.
This is the value you providethat you generate.
Right.
And I think names like evenpersonal names, you know, um,
one of the, I think, baggages Ihad around Al, even though I
genuinely, like I'm cool withthat name.
(46:20):
I'm right.
But Al was smart.
Like that, that, that, that's inkind of just, just interwoven.
Right.
And when I think about otherfish and the people who call me
that, what that really is.
I'll push as a good kid, youknow, neither of those things is
bad, but they're interwoven withthose names.
And so to a certain degree, Ihave to be pay attention that
(46:43):
when I'm out, I'm not a machinepart and I'm going to be smart,
you know what I mean?
And so we do this to people.
We do it like job titles, asyou're pointing out.
But I think, I think people'snames, they're actually like
John can become a machine partthing.
Like this is your role in thefamily.
This is your role in thecompany.
It's your role in our friendgroup.
John is this, this is themachine part that you are in
(47:06):
this collective and you're notallowed to be anything else.
Kyley (47:08):
If you think of traditional, like European
names, Smith, Fletcher, theywere perfect.
What did you do?
I made arrows.
My family makes
am (47:18):
arrows.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's what the naming andreally
Kyley (47:22):
first names didn't come about until serfdom kind of
disappeared and people startedtraveling from town to town
where now you aren't.
Fletcher.
You have to have another nameattached to the Fletcher.
Kay Pinky (47:34):
Is Smith connected to like, Oh, yeah,
Kyley (47:38):
I
Kay Pinky (47:39):
was just about to ask that.
Yeah.
Kyley (47:41):
Yeah.
Yeah.
am (47:47):
You got to, you know, where, where, you know, where, where,
where the, where the term Ijust, I saw, uh, I saw Barbie
this past week.
Um, it's great.
It's great.
It's um, the, uh, Mrs.
It's like Mr.
Mrs.
You know, it misses.
Where that came from?
Oh, I used to know.
It's
Kyley (48:06):
horrible.
It's horrifying.
I mean, I know it's like anownership.
Yeah.
It's
am (48:11):
Mr.
apostrophe S.
Owned by Mr.
Owned by Mr.
It's literally what it was.
So if you're Mrs.
Johnson, it's Mr.
Johnson.
This is Mr.
Johnson's property asabbreviated to Mrs.
Is that crazy?
And miss, you weren't owned yet.
(48:32):
You weren't, you weren't part ofsome, yeah.
Kay Pinky (48:34):
You missed a mark.
am (48:35):
Yeah, you were, you know, you're pre, you're still on the
market, you know.
Kyley (48:39):
Yeah.
am (48:39):
You still get.
Unclaimed territory.
Kyley (48:40):
Unclaimed,
am (48:41):
unclaimed property.
Yeah.
You know, waiting for, for someman to claim you, right?
You have been missed.
My, my daughter, God bless her,my daughter, you know, she's her
own person in a million ways,but she and I have some great
DNA overlap, you know,psychologically.
She got into a fight in highschool.
Like, it wasn't like it, youknow.
She's up in this conversationamong her friends, you know,
(49:02):
like, boys, girls, you know,mixed group, and it really, you
know, she's in theater, and soshe had this big group of really
tight gang, you know.
And there were like seven oreight of them that were, like,
tight within that type of ring.
And so, you know, in highschool, have lunch together, you
know, whatever.
And this one day at lunch, uh,this thing of naming comes up.
Um, cause somebody's, like,older sibling is getting married
(49:24):
or something, right?
And this conversation aboutkeeping your last name when you
get married for the girls likekeeping my last name to get
married and you know, a coupleof the girls were like, yeah,
I'm gonna keep my last name.
So I was like, I am absolutelykeeping my last name when I get
married.
And a couple of boys like, Imean, you could see the value,
but that wasn't the hard part.
Sarah doubling down as, as wewant to do.
So, and actually when I havekids, those kids are going to
(49:47):
have my last name, not thefather's.
And one of her friends literallysaid, well, male friends, who's,
you know, nice guy, but.
Little, you know, grew up in abox.
Um, says to her, I don't thinkthat's legal.
And she apparently lied.
I wasn't there.
She told me this story after afact.
Right.
(50:07):
And she apparently like lost itwith him.
Like, because again, for hername, it's like, I gave birth to
this human.
It's getting my last name.
Excellent.
Not his.
Wow.
And so like that's naming a girl like I'm going to name, but
now what does that do to thekid, right?
Because now, now like it'sempowering for her.
Like I get to name, because itis like, you know, the, the,
(50:30):
the, what, what's all, you know,Saul Williams applying to, you
know, let your kids nameyourself, claim yourself in the
context of that in the name youcreate the thing.
Right.
And so for her, it is empoweringof like, no, I will name.
Right.
But then for the kid, itbecomes, you know, it's still
the same quandary down the road.
Like, did I name,
you know,
You can't get away from that one.
(50:50):
I think that's part of the, thekind of, you know, individuation
process is claiming your nameand it could be the exact same
name, but now it's, I claim it.
I named myself this, right?
So, you know, you keep Muhammad,but it's like now, no, now I
claim this name.
Kay Pinky (51:06):
Versus it was given to me.
If you think about it, it's themale's name that's really passed
on and the female's name isgoing away.
am (51:13):
It's gone, yeah.
Kay Pinky (51:14):
So it's like, it's the
Mo (51:15):
family giving away their daughter type of thing?
It's like, it's usually selling.
It's like a butter.
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Kay Pinky (51:22):
Here's some cows.
Yeah, yeah.
There's gold.
There's cows.
Yep.
There's a list they give you MoYeah.
The, so Ghana, I know about it.
Ghana, that's a tradition.
Like you're gonna get married.
The father of the woman Uhhuhgives you a list of things
mm-hmm To provide.
Yeah.
Yeah.
You know, but my, my, uh, myfather-in-law, he actually
(51:42):
didn't do that.
You know, he, he actuallydoesn't believe in that.
So he wrote a, a, a, he, hewrote a pa, he took a paper and
wrote a Bible quotation and thenput it in an envelope.
And, um, said I should give itto my people because that's how
it's done.
They gave it to me to give it tomy, I don't open it and I gave
it to my, but he kind of told meahead of time.
(52:03):
So I knew it and then theyopened it and I was like, what
is this?
What was the verse?
Do
am (52:07):
you
Kay Pinky (52:07):
remember the verse is talking about, uh, I can look it
up, but the verse is talkingabout, you can't put a price on
my daughter.
And so I'm giving my daughteraway.
That's some gangster shit.
Yeah.
It's like my daughter is worthmore than the list I'm going to
make you.
No matter how expensive, youknow, it is.
(52:28):
And he told me, he explained tome why he did that.
Um, it's like, there it is.
One Bible quotation.
Boom.
In an envelope.
And I knew it.
And I just gave it to them,dude.
And they were like, no, you'resupposed to give us something to
give them.
It's tradition.
And then he, you know, theyfought a little bit.
It was like, Nope, I'm not doinganything.
It's my daughter.
I'm giving my daughter away.
I'm not putting a price on her.
am (53:03):
Thank you for listening to Absurd Wisdom.
This is A.
M.
Bott, and you know,conversation, real human
conversation never actuallyends, but episodes of podcasts
need to.
So we're going to end here.
You can connect with me onInstagram and TikTok at, at
Absurd Wisdom.
You can find DAE on Instagram atdae.
(53:23):
community or online at mydae.
org.
Absurd Wisdom is produced anddistributed by DAE Presents, the
production arm of DAE, and we'llbe back with more Conversation
Beyond Understanding nextThursday.
No, is to be within a specific discipline, a specific
(00:36):
world, a specific reality toknow is extremely useful for
getting things done within thatparticular discipline or world
or reality to be an effectivedoctor or a pastry chef or a
financial analyst.
There's much that is critical toknow, but knowing by its nature
is bounded by, and in factreinforcing of, the reality
within which it occurs.
(00:58):
For 25 years, I've worked withexecutives in large
organizations, grad students,tech entrepreneurs, religious
leaders, and no doubt mytoughest client, myself.
I'm developing the capacity toexplore what lies beyond
knowing, beyond certainty at apractical level.
This work is required for thingslike innovation, but more
importantly, I found that thisinquiry is critical for
(01:20):
maintaining one's humanity.
Oh, and if you're generousenough to be listening to these
conversations, I respectfullysubmit that at any point, if you
feel you understand what I'msaying, you're not listening
deeply enough.
Alright, so, so, so this, nowthe answer, so the entry point,
now this does get moremeaningfully into, into what
(01:41):
came up in, in, in this podcastinterview that I did.
And really, so the woman askedme, uh, uh, about my name.
And she said, so, A.
M., why, why, why, why, why doyou go up?
I'm just curious, why A.
M.?
Okay, cool.
We'll tell you why A.
M.
I don't think I've ever told thestory here.
So, you know, it'd be good.
Um, so when I was born, um, Ihad an older brother, um, who
(02:03):
died before I was born and hedied the way I tell the story
because it's accurate.
He dies from complications ofpoverty.
Um, he literally died of, um,uh, dehydration like his body
could get a bacterial thing.
There was no medicine.
And, you know, and so, um, Ayear after that, I'm born and in
the tradition and in the kind ofHinduism, or at least a version
(02:24):
of Hinduism, I was what's knownas a begged child.
When you have a child that dies,the next child that comes,
you've begged God for it.
It does not belong to you.
Kyley (02:33):
You're
am (02:33):
not allowed to buy clothing for it.
You're not allowed to buy toys,nothing for a year.
You can have people give youclothes, they have to be used.
You can have them give you toys,they have to be used.
You're not allowed to haveanything.
My name, my parents didn't giveme.
It was somebody else gave thename and some of the birthday
(02:54):
was Alpesh, right?
Now I love that name and thepeople, my family, my mother, my
sister, my family, India, that'swhat they call me.
And I like that identity likemeans something to me.
It's connected to a wholetradition on it, but I didn't
choose that identity.
I landed here and like, I canremember it like so vividly.
(03:16):
First day of class.
The teacher, like, Al! Welcome,Al! Because Al's a name they,
you know, it's an Italian area,you know, West David, New Haven
area, they knew Al.
And from that moment on, Al.
I know so many people who callme Al.
I'm totally cool with that name.
(03:36):
There's an identity associatedwith that name.
I didn't choose that identity.
A.
M., I've always put on mycreative work.
You know, like photography, andI've published a couple of
photography books and my actingAM.
And over the last few years,I've just decided to kind of
push that a little more.
Not because I dislike thosenames.
I value those identities.
(03:57):
And I'm okay with people callingme Opesh or Al.
Those are identities Iabsolutely have.
But they're not identities Ichose.
AM is the name for the identityI chose.
Right?
And so, so, you know, uh, uh,uh, I'm okay with that.
I indulged her question in, in,in, in the, in the podcast.
(04:18):
Um, at that level, you know,kind of the full story as
opposed to just giving her a, aquick thing, which is I normally
do because it, it was, it wasable to, uh, I was, because I
wanted to use it to, to open upa conversation about DAE.
It was like, you know, um,there's a, there's a, uh, um,
I'll send it to you guysoffline.
There's, um, the poet SaulWilliams.
(04:38):
Um.
He's like a poet, a writer, anda filmmaker.
He's a really amazing guy.
Um, there's a poem called CodedLanguage that I've always loved.
And, um, it's a video of himperforming it at Deaf Poets,
which is a show that he used tobe on.
Deaf Poets Jam.
Deaf Poetry or Deaf Poets Jam?
I don't know.
(04:59):
Um, Most deaf, uh, now known aswhen you see bay, he's the host
of it and it's just great.
That's some great people onthere.
Uh, anyway, in, in codedlanguage, he's got a line.
He says, we must allow ourchildren to name themselves so
they can claim themselves.
Right.
And so like I use that story ofmy name to kind of get into like
(05:19):
part of what you can look at,we're doing here is allowing
kids to name themselves.
Right.
As opposed to the names thatthey were given.
And metaphorical names, right?
You know, not that anyone inhere is going to change their
name necessarily.
Uh, so, so, uh, now I'm going toshut up and, and like, be
curious what, you know, yourkind of take is on this issue of
(05:41):
identity and naming yourself.
Not just like, like, becauseyou, you know, Mo, but when you
introduce me on stage, I want tobe known as mama.
Yeah.
Right.
Uh, so what's your relationshipto literally to name and, and
what that does for you, your K.
Yeah.
But you're not, right?
Yeah.
Um, and sometimes you're K Pinky.
Yeah.
(06:02):
Right?
And so, like, the relationship,like, the literally, like, name
and identity, but then even,like, software engineer, that's
a name, right?
Like, getting named that orchoosing to name yourself that.
And so I'm just curious, like,what you all see about, you
know, this kind of issue ofnaming yourself, naming other
people, and then what that does.
And then, you know, if you gotany thoughts on, like, what we
do here or what we do in, kindof, DAE and this whole, kind of,
(06:25):
naming and identity thing.
Kay Pinky (06:27):
Quick question.
Before we all get into that, thepart where.
You could, you know, yourparents couldn't name you
technology before we log intothat conversation.
It's great.
The part where your parentscouldn't name you, is that part
of the whole Hindu culturething?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Okay.
And is it, is it okay?
(06:48):
Um, the community has to nameyou or someone else else.
It was one of my aunts that, uh,uh, uh, that, that chose the
name.
So is it, is it anyone else orsomeone in your family or I, you
know, I honestly don't know.
am (06:59):
Uh, now I'm going to have to call my mom tonight and ask her.
I don't know.
I don't know if there's like a,like a certain protocol on that
or if it's just like the loudestvoice gets to impose the name,
you know, but basically theycouldn't name me.
Kay Pinky (07:12):
I thought that was interesting.
Yeah.
Um, yeah.
In a good way.
am (07:17):
Yeah.
So you're, you're kind of, youknow, you, you, you, it's, it's
like, you're, you're an orphanfor a year, basically.
It's like, I didn't raise you tokind of all but they can't.
You can't do anything they mightdo like if they quote unquote
own you like you can't provideanything because it's borrowed
might be taken back like yourlast one.
Kay Pinky (07:32):
Yeah, the opposite view is like, you know, paying
respect to like, you know,whatever religion, whatever God,
whatever God, you know, whateverit is, it's like more honoring
that thing.
You know, I mean, because,because your parents could have
said, you know, no, we're not,we're still going to go ahead
(07:52):
and name you.
Yeah.
Right.
But I guess it's, they did itwith thought and care, which,
which, which, which makes youspecial.
You know what I mean?
I mean, that's how I view it.
I'm just trying to, you know, Itry to put spins around stuff
and I always try to make itpositive.
But I'm thinking your parentscould have said, no, we're going
to name you.
You know, lots of people havedone that, but they went with it
(08:14):
and said, you know what, we'regoing to go with this religion
and the guy, whatever guidelinesand, and follow that.
Um, however we feel, because wethink that's the right thing to,
that meant they cared, caredabout you.
Yeah.
And that's why they did that.
And if everything went well,then you're here.
That's good.
You know what I mean?
And when you have that, then Iget it.
(08:36):
I'm going
am (08:36):
to pass along to my mom tonight when I ask her about,
about where the name came from.
Like this rule, I'm going to sayK approves.
Kay Pinky (08:43):
Yeah.
am (08:44):
I used to call you Al.
Yeah.
I didn't know anything about AM.
Kay Pinky (08:48):
It's what most people have called me, like most, most
Americans.
That's, yeah.
Actually, me, I asked him thisquestion today.
Uh, yesterday, yesterday.
And we're talking about, I toldyou, I said, I used to call you
Al, that it was, it was awkwardcalling you A.
M., and then now I've called youA.
M.
so many times, it's awkwardcalling you Al.
Names are very powerful, man.
Very, very powerful.
(09:08):
And I was like, Al, or what?
A.
M.
now.
Okay.
So back to the question.
Yeah.
am (09:18):
What's in a name, as the Bard said?
Kyley (09:21):
Interesting.
My story is similar anddifferent to yours in the way
that I mean, I got my name.
My name is Kylie.
It is, I didn't understand thename, I think, until I was at a
playground one time.
Clearly didn't understand,understand Stranger Danger, but
this woman was calling my name.
And so I ran over to her, and I,her like, daughter showed up at
(09:42):
the same time as me, talking tothis child.
And I'm like, it's like, mybrain is processing.
What's happening here andunderstanding that my name is
traditionally used in the femalecontext.
And so I've had the other waywhere like people trying to
switch to Kyle.
I'm like, nah, nope, my name ismy name or they switch my
gender.
It's like I was in the girls gymclass.
(10:03):
I was signed up with the girlsgym class my freshman year
because they transitioned mygender in the records.
Because one of those things hadto be wrong.
And clearly the name was, wasmore accurate.
And so I've, I have.
Refuse to take on nicknames Andall of those things are like my
name is kylee and you will callme by my name.
Yeah
Mo (10:26):
Yeah for me um So i'm named after my grandpa on my mom's
side Uh, he in senegal like thecosmos region.
They're like really religious.
So he's what you call sharif Um,so he like studies quran.
Yeah, so I guess it was likesome pressure me like always
doing well in like quran schoolor sunday school You Uh, but I
(10:49):
would say I've been fortunateenough to like, whatever I chose
to do, they were just, they justtold me to make sure you do it
well.
Um, I think that's the onlything, and then Mo came from my
elementary school teacher, MissW.
She just read, it was the firstday of school, she read the
attendance, she was like,Mohammed, Mohammed, is it an ED
or a TH?
And people were just telling me,I think you're supposed to have
an ED at the end or a TH.
(11:10):
My dad said it's like a Frenchway of saying it, I don't know.
But she asked me, can I call youMo?
And I was like, Ooh, that soundscool.
I was like, I was like, yeah,you can call me Mo.
And everyone started calling meMo.
Um, and I guess that, thestudents started thinking that
was my name.
So they all just ended upcalling me Mo.
Um, and I guess after getting tocollege, I think people started
saying, uh, Mo Sec.
(11:30):
And I didn't like that part.
I was like, no, it's just anickname.
Just be like Mo and thenMohammed Sec.
So when they started putting mynickname to my last name, I was
like, I'm not really feelingthat.
Yeah.
Um, but no, I,
am (11:48):
it's fascinating.
I never put that together, butactually I had the same
experience, but I never realizedthat until literally just the
moment.
Like I was totally fine with Al.
I still am fine with Al when Isee Al Bot.
I hate it.
I, I, I have a reaction to it.
Like, like it's just, it's, Idon't know what that is.
Mo (12:07):
Do you have a sense of what that is to you?
am (12:09):
Uh.
Mo (12:11):
It's a title.
It goes back to the title.
It's like Muhammad.
It's like it's on paperwork.
It's on like, um, Also themeaning of where it comes from,
from like named after my grandpaand the influence he has out
there, but it's like, at thesame time, it's like, it's a,
it's a nickname.
It's like something you say forshort, and it feels like you're
like shortening my title, youknow,
Kyley (12:31):
I've never heard of a name and title being put
together.
And that's really interesting.
And this part of my name, like,this is my title name.
This is the thing that is myidentity.
Mo (12:41):
I think it carries more weight.
Yeah.
Because when you say Dr.
King, it's like, all right,that's cool, Martin Luther King,
but if you say Dr.
Martin Luther King Jr., it'slike a whole, like that carries
a lot of weight.
am (12:52):
So, so in, in, in, again, in the kind of version of Hinduism,
the subset, the cast, all that,uh, your middle names are
actually the male, I mean, verypatriarchal, right?
So, so technically my name, likemy middle name on my paperwork
is Madhusudana, which is myfather's name, but my actual
name.
Is Alpesh Madhusudan, myfather's name, Shiv Shankar, his
(13:13):
father's name, uh, Krishnallal,his father's name.
Like, and so you, as manygenerations back as you can go,
those are all your middle names.
It's all the male, you keep yourmale lineage in your, so in
terms of titles, like it's afamily title.
Cause Bhatt, you know, there area lot of people that have Bhatt.
That's the last name, right?
Like Johnson or whatever room.
Um, and then that lineage ofyour names.
(13:35):
I was like, yeah, this is theparticular thread.
This is the, you know, thetitle.
This is the house.
This is the whatever.
Uh, kind of, it's that kind offeel to it.
Is this someone who has a reallylong name
Kay Pinky (13:45):
name?
Yeah,
am (13:45):
but as you think all of our names though themselves, like my
father said, well, deuces done.
It's like all the names are 14lettered along names.
And then you got like 14 ofthose, right?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Big signature is a very, uh, uh,problematic thing.
Kay Pinky (13:59):
I hear Patel a lot.
Patel.
Yeah.
I hear it a lot.
am (14:02):
Where do I go?
Yeah.
It's a particular region.
It's the region I'm from.
Actually.
Uh, Patel is a pretty commonname.
Mo (14:11):
Some of the, they also, the last names are also like extra
groups.
So like, uh, SEC, like when Iwent to the airport, I, I told
him, they said, you read myname.
It's like Muhammad's psych.
It was like, you sound like Aliis because usually people with
SEC are more dark skin.
Right.
My mom.
So they were like, okay, you'resick.
All right, cool.
What's, what's your mom's lastname?
And then we say, I doubt it.
(14:31):
Like, Oh, okay.
That makes sense.
Cause it's like a, what's itcalled?
Casting?
Yeah.
Like cast system or something.
Yeah.
Well, yeah.
My middle name is Fidel.
It also comes from my grandpa.
So I'm starting to like Fideltoo.
Like I'm cool with peoplecalling me Fidel now.
I'm like, I like, that's all itis.
No, it's great.
It's like, um, I don't know.
(14:52):
It's like a, It's kind of coolto, like, change your identity
sometimes.
So, like, moving forward, it'slike, Alright, someone's calling
me Fidel.
It's like, alright, that's cool.
It's like a new chapter, a newbeginning type of thing.
Yeah?
Kay Pinky (15:07):
Yeah.
Yeah.
For me?
See, I have a lot of names.
Honestly, you don't even knowall of them.
I didn't know his is Kwame.
That's a whole different thing.
I didn't even know that.
am (15:20):
This is the first time I'm hearing that one.
Okay.
Kay Pinky (15:22):
Well, so, so Kwame, everyone has a, so based on the
day you were born, you have a, aname.
Okay?
Everyone, if you're born, ifyou're born on a Saturday, you
have a Kwame, uh, title.
So there are lots of Kwame.
If you see, if you see anyonecalled Kwame, they are born on
Saturday.
You see, see someone called, uh,hear someone called Kofi.
That's a Friday.
There's a name for a malefemale.
That's cool as a title.
(15:42):
Everyone has that title.
So both of my brother and Iwe're Kwame.
Um, there's a basketball playercalled Kwame Black or whatever,
Kwame Brown.
He, he's born on a Saturday.
You can just tell.
Um, so there's that, that's,that's that.
And then, um, and then my actualname is Kakra.
That's just the title of a youngtwin.
Yeah.
The youngest.
And that's, that's what I grewup, you know, being called
(16:04):
Kakra.
Like, and I hear that I, I hearme and then, you know, It's,
it's like a, a, a hip thing forpeople to call it, you know, p,
p and K, or K and p.
And so my mom would call us,Hey, P and k, you know, or, or
cock like, like, she wouldn't gocock and pain like, like, you
know, KP just to be like hip orfancy about it.
(16:25):
And so I, I got attached thatbecause I, I realized it was a
thing, you know, people werehappy, you know, using that name
and, and, but, but I always wasconnected to Carra, right?
So in the back of my mind, I'mlike, okay, K, all right, it's
cool and all that.
But I'm, I'm connected to Carraand then.
And over time, you know, it wasused more and more, like I was
like, Anytime I'm introducingmyself, I would always say
(16:46):
Kakra, but people would alwayscall me K.
I'm like, okay.
It was always confusing to me,like, if you call me K, Like, it
took me some time to be okaywith the fact that, You know, on
my passport, you're never goingto see K on it, but people
identify, Like, see me as K.
There's so many times whereyou're like, wait, what's your
(17:08):
name?
You know, is it Atakaka?
Like, where does the K comefrom?
I don't see K anywhere, so I gotused to that.
Um, yeah, so that's a long storyof, you know, kind of, how I
kind of accepted that.
But, Kpinky, though, that's aninteresting one.
So, back in 2014, 2013, 2015,there was a cryptocurrency
exchange called Poloniex.
(17:30):
Right, it was the first of itskind.
It had a chatbox called theTrollbox, first of its kind.
It was the best in the world,and just a regular chatbox.
And then you, before you signup, you pick an alias, and I
actually pick Kakra or K,something like that.
And then, they had a feature inthere, when anytime you tip
someone, you actually becomepink.
(17:50):
Right, so you come, like it's ashade of pink, and you have to
really tip to get to the highestlevel.
Like, it could take you twoyears to get there.
And, um, I went crazy with that,that chat.
I really went crazy.
I was tipping left and right.
Um, cause, you know, I kindalike that stuff.
And I got really, really pink onthe site.
Probably like one of the, maybeout of maybe like 10 people out
(18:11):
of like millions on the, in theshow box.
I was really pink.
I post a message.
Everyone knows I'm in the, I'min the, I'm there.
It's like, Hey, you know, andthen I'm like, Oh, this is
actually cool.
And then I asked them what themoderate is.
They were, they were purple.
Everyone else was gray or, uh,or white.
Some people.
And I said, Hey, can you, canyou just add pinky to my name?
It's like, um, sure.
(18:32):
And then he's changed my name.
Instantly.
My name changed to Kate Pinky.
I'm like, this is really cool,you know, the fact that I could
fire name, you know, it's like,but actually, so, so I was like,
it's really cool.
The fact that it's attached tothat idea of me given was cool.
And also like, you know,religiously, like we believe in
giving a lot, you know, um, somepeople like to think given you
(18:55):
shall receive, but I just thinkgiving is just a good thing,
right?
So I was like, Oh, this isactually all works together.
So I started introducing myselfas K Pinky, my online game,
online names, game names,whatever, K Pinky everywhere.
And I really, really, I'm happywhen people call me K Pinky for
that reason.
And I also used to like thecolors black and blue and gray a
(19:15):
lot.
Those are the only colors that Ilike.
I was like, I'll wear all thethings, but I defaulted out.
My mom takes us to the store.
What do you like?
I want the black box.
And my mom was like, choose,choose colors.
And I really, really liked that.
And it took, took me a while tolike, to kind of like, like
colors in general.
So, pink was like, also taggedas a girly thing.
(19:36):
So I was like, you know what?
I like the color pink.
And then I, I, I discoveredblue.
And I discovered, you know, red.
And I'm like, colors aregenuinely great.
You saw me build that websiteone time with a bunch of colors.
I looked at that thing.
I'm like, whoa, this is actuallygreat.
And so, um, I, I, I got used tothat idea of just like colors in
general, paying closer first,and then, and then that.
(19:56):
I know, all this stuff is notconnected, I'm just talking
right now.
But, um, I really like K Pinky,I like K, I've just accepted the
fact that, you know, it's whatit is.
As long as it has some meaningto, to it, um, it makes people
happy, I'm happy, I'm good.
You know, as long as it has somemeaning.
People still know, some peoplecall me Kakra, some people call
me K Pinky, Kiko, Kiko because Iused to play games a lot and I
(20:18):
beat everyone.
Um, and so, and so that nameKiko became a thing of like a
competition.
That's why I'm always like, youknow, competitive and
everything.
Cause like they used to give mefun.
I keep going and I feel great.
And I, you know what I mean?
So that's why I actually plan tocall that ping pong league one
day, one day in Ghana, ping pongleague, the Kiko league.
So I talk too much.
(20:38):
I need to work on that.
am (20:39):
It's just fascinating to me though, because it is, it's,
it's, it's this thing.
Like.
So you have all these names thatare tied to different identities
that you value, right?
And they kind of mean differentthings and different, I'm
fascinated by the, uh, uh, I'venever heard this and I don't
think we, I mean, we're, youknow, we do everything complex
in India that's, you know,around, uh, uh, stuff like this.
(21:00):
And, and we, I don't think weeven do this, like you have a
day for the name of the weekyou're born, right?
So you've got a day for yourbirth order.
And down to the specificity, ifwe even have a word for if
you're a twin and you're theyounger of the twin, like that
is hyper specific
Kay Pinky (21:15):
identity naming, right?
Yeah, there are lots of peoplewith my name.
There are lots of people with myfirst two names, Atakaka.
Kyley (21:22):
Yeah.
Kay Pinky (21:22):
Like all younger twins have that title.
And also there's a thing, if yougo to high school, like first
year is like your initiation.
Everyone gets a nickname by yourschool father, which happens to
be a senior.
You don't choose, they pick you.
Your school father picks you.
So just a senior person and theygive you that name.
Um, and like, I'm going to callyou enzyme.
Cause I studied general sciencein high school.
(21:46):
Yeah.
It's the thing you say.
And, and you're like, you knowwhat?
We're going to call him enzyme.
And everyone was like, Oh, andsince then high school, They
don't call you by any othername.
They go by Enzyme.
Enzyme.
Your close friends will come inand call you Kakra or K.
But Enzyme was a thing, it was aname.
Um, and so sometimes I go toGhana, there are people who will
(22:07):
see me and go, Enzyme! And I'llturn around and everyone knows
it's me.
Or someone will call me Kakra orK.
Or Kaki, you know, or Kikok, youknow, or.
Whatever, whatever.
So they use all these names, butI, I, I, I connect to all of
them because they all have astory.
Yeah.
And I'm okay with that.
am (22:23):
It's, it's, I, I reminded you last summer, or I guess
maybe it was like fall, I, um,uh, ran into somebody that I
have not seen since college.
Like it's been like decades.
And, um, It's like, Oh my God,Stu, is that because I was known
back then as Stu.
I had a girlfriend in, um, uh,senior year in high school and,
(22:47):
and I had this like beat up old,uh, uh, Chevy to chocolate Brown
Chevy Nova black bench seats.
It was great.
It was, it was like broken downthree days out of seven, but I
loved that car.
Um, I bought it for 500 bucksand had a track player in it.
This is well past the eighttrack era, but that's what this
car had in it.
And so, like, I scrounged, youknow, eight tracks, like, I find
them, and I had, like, six,eight tracks that would just
(23:09):
rotate, but one of them was, uh,uh, Led Zeppelin, uh, actually,
two of them were, were LedZeppelin albums, uh, and there
was a song, I think it's onPhysical Graffiti, uh, called
Boogie With Stu, and I, forwhatever reason, that summer, I
loved that song, and I played itall the time, and the girl I was
dating at the time just startedcalling me Stu, and that was
senior year, and I went off tocollege, and I got to, like,
(23:30):
like, remember so vividlywalking into the dorm, and And
like, you know, on the, on the,on the dorm, you know, uh, on,
on my room, it had Alpesh but,and you know, my roommate, uh,
who's going to be good and walkin and they're like, you know,
uh, so what should we call you?
I was like, Oh, my name is Stu.
And so for everybody that knowsme from UConn and from that era,
(23:51):
Stu is the only four years I'veever used that name.
And there's an identity attachedto it.
There's a way of walkingattached to it.
There's a certain.
Like, like Stu was, was sort ofin the vein of, you know, like,
like, uh, I don't know if thesereferences make it, but yeah, it
was like Neal Cassidy and, uh,uh, Charles Bukowski and, and,
and Jim Morrison.
(24:12):
Stu was living that lifestyle.
Highly creative, but highlyintense and highly, yeah.
And so anyway, so, so this last,like, fall, I see this person,
like, just again, random, it'slike, Stu, is that, you know,
like, I had this, like, sciencefiction moment where like I
almost felt my body changebecause I hadn't thought about
the identity so long but I sawthis person I knew from that era
(24:33):
called me that name that namewas a trigger and also I'm like
back the feeling what that feltlike and you know it's just a
wildest thing and you got like40 of those it sounds like yeah
Kay Pinky (24:45):
I go well yeah but but it's it's a it's a cool
thing because like it's just forme it's one of the things that
make me happy you Um, and I, I'mlike, I'm not going to force it.
Um, it, it has a, you know, I,you, you can, you can tell
people you're this, but like,they're going to call you
whatever they want to call you.
And, uh, I, I have this mindsetof like in life, I don't force
(25:07):
anything, you know, like, um,things are just gonna work
themselves out, be like water.
So I, I've, I've, I've stuck tothat.
Even when my, my, my body, my,my mind, whatever is telling me,
okay, do something about it.
Fight it.
I just let go.
Uh, because I really believe injust like letting loose, um, and
you know, so I just let it be,but, but doing that every single
(25:31):
one of those names, like theyhave a story behind it.
Um, and it's like, okay, youknow, it's, it reminds me of a
certain time in my life thatthis happened in time.
I laughed at this happen.
And, um, yeah.
But do it.
So it's funny, right?
During the serious times, peoplecall me certain names.
During the times I'm playingvideo games, they call me this,
(25:51):
you know.
During the sad times, they callme this.
Like, when my mom died, no onecalled me, no one called me Kay
Pinky.
Or no
one called me, uh, you know, this, you know.
Someone's about to crack a joke,they use the funny one, kaki,
you know, and someone's about totalk about video games, and I
win, it's like, oh, kiko, youknow, when I go to high school,
um, we, you know, actually went,went back, went, went to one
(26:13):
when I went to Ghana, you know,a while ago, it's like all the
old students come back, uh, andthen they all call me Enzyme, no
one called me by my name, soEnzyme, you know, they're
introducing me Enzyme, or he wasthe this, he was the that, um.
And then over here, it's getPinky, you know, but we don't
need to get Pinky all the time.
Right.
You know, sometimes I try tojust push it and everything, but
Mo (26:32):
you just reminded me of like, when my mom's like, like
mad or like trying to get myattention, she'll say my first
and my middle name.
That's her dad's name.
So she's like Muhammad Fadal.
Like she's really trying to getmy attention.
Oh, what do y'all think aboutpeople calling you by your last
name as if it was your first?
I had a soccer coach who calledmostly everyone on the team by
their last name.
(26:53):
Um, I thought it was, I'venever, and that caught me off
guard cause I was like, justcall me like Sec or it'll be
like, uh, Sanchez.
And I thought that was like amilitary thing.
I don't know if he was in themilitary, but that, that, that
was, I was okay with that.
That was fine with me.
Kyley (27:06):
I've been in football too, playing sports.
It's very confusing when youcall someone's like, I had a
friend named Flood and it callshouse.
It's a whole family's flood.
So, it's flood there.
You're like, what?
It's music outside of thatspecific area of conversation.
am (27:26):
Grad students do this for some reason.
And just, it took me years toget used to it.
And just, and they're comingfrom everywhere.
They're coming from around theworld.
They're coming from around thecountry.
And they call a professor, theycall me Ba.
Like, I'm like, like, it doesn'tbother me.
It doesn't, it's just like, sodisconcerting though.
(27:46):
Um, I don't know where it comesfrom.
I don't know why it's like justa norm in, in, in that
environment.
But it is to this day, I guessstudents, you know, there's
just, he's laughing, nothingelse.
No professor bot, no, you know,no first name.
It's just bot.
Even in emails, it's theweirdest thing is emails start
bot comma.
Do you know where I can findthat?
Kay Pinky (28:08):
weird it for me.
Like I grew up like thinkingthat if you're trying to be
respectful or professional Yeah.
Like people use it all the time,Mr.
But or Mr.
Sec.
So for me, I just do it when I'mjust either trying to be like,
just like, uh, like when I sayto mom, I'm just trying to be
respectful to my friend.
There's something about itthat's just a little funny.
(28:29):
But do you put mister in frontof it sometimes?
Just to be funny though, right?
Not because.
I really, you know, I'm goingwith the mystery.
am (28:35):
It makes sense to me, but just the last name to a
stranger.
It feels weird.
Kay Pinky (28:40):
Yeah
Mo (28:41):
Yeah, not bad.
Just weird.
And it might be too much fromthe side of my side coach today,
but I was like, it's prettycool.
Um, there was a student in thefirst summer camp.
We used to call me Mr.
Mohammed.
I forgot his name.
You probably remember.
I probably
do.
I think he was in the video.
He was in the arts and ideas.
We'd be like, Mr.
Mohammed, excuse me, Mr.
Mohammed.
He was the only one that calledme Mr.
Mohammed.
Kay Pinky (29:02):
I don't, I don't, I don't relate to my, my last
name.
I mean, I use it less.
I don't connect to it.
Um, interesting.
If I was to pick, I, I'll pickthat last even weird.
My dad made lots of mistakeswhen he was doing this paperwork
stuff messed up our birthday on,done it.
So now I'm stuck to the 21st,which is not rule my, my rule
birthday every time they ask me.
Wait.
Yeah, yeah.
(29:23):
Wait, what?
So what are your two birthdays?
My actual birthday is the 23rdof December.
For some reason I don't, no,it's not.
Is it?
My actual birthday is the 23rd.
We did talk about this.
Yeah.
We have the same birthday.
I don't know how he messed up 1and 3.
It's not like 1 and 7.
You know, they're close.
But 1 and 3.
How do you mess it up?
So, it's both in December.
Well, yeah.
So, he put December 21st, andthat's what's on file in the
(29:45):
passport.
So, we can't mess that up.
It's going to be a wholeprocess.
So, alright.
So, I told my wife, I'm like,whatever you do, 21st, okay?
When you're interviewing you andyou're coming here, it's the
21st.
We do practice, you know, it'slike, oh, what's my birthday?
And it's like, it's like 21st.
That's great.
You know?
That's epic.
Um, So 21st on paper, I'm soused to that right now, but my
actual birthday is the 23rd andthat's when I actually
(30:06):
celebrate.
It's actually perfect, becauseeveryone wishes me a happy
birthday on the 21st, so Iaccept it.
But on the 23rd, I'm just alone,I'm like, yeah.
You know, and the people, theOGs in Ghana, the ones actually
calling me like, happy birthday,I'm like, yeah, you know, you
know.
Um, but the last name, Di tom,uh, Di tom, Di tom, I even
forgot how to pronounce it, Idon't relate to it.
Even where my dad, my dad forgotone of his last names to ours.
(30:29):
And so when he was doing thepaperwork, he was afraid that
they're going to say, okay,that's not your son.
So he had to, in high school,add that other name.
I don't know if some of you haveseen it as an H E N O U N,
Hennon, you know, I don't evenknow how to pronounce it.
I don't connect to that name atall.
I looked, I saw that name.
They posted in high school.
They announced it to everyone.
There's a name change.
So my friends were like, Hey,someone actually had to come to
(30:49):
class and tell me, Hey, yourname has changed.
I'm like, what are you talkingabout?
So I went to the notice boardand it says, This person's name
has changed to Dittomi Hennon orwhatever.
That's my dad's.
Uh, he's kind of half a Benin orsome Haruts or whatever.
As soon as I became a citizen, Iremoved that name ASAP.
And I just stuck to D TOMMYbecause D TOMMY is what I grew
up with.
So I removed that H E N O U andoff.
(31:10):
There are still some debit cardsand credit cards and, um, old
passports that have that name.
It's all gone.
So it's now Atakaka D TOMMY anddone.
I don't relate to that.
Like what?
It's just added.
Halfway through my life, there'sno, no stories.
No, no, no connections.
No, nothing.
And when the name like that isadded to my name, I see no
point.
am (31:32):
But you said you don't have a relationship to, to, to, to
Datome either, right?
Like that doesn't have a big
Kay Pinky (31:36):
Yeah, I
am (31:36):
don't, yeah.
Is that a cultural thing?
Is that like others in, inGhana?
Like the, the, because all, allthese other names have so many
specific anchor points foridentity that the last name
isn't a big deal?
Kay Pinky (31:46):
Well, it's also, it's also like, um, My, my mother
doesn't have that last name.
Marriage issues, right?
So, didn't have that.
My mother has a different lastname.
I would, I would have loved mymother's last name because I,
because I grew up with mymother.
I didn't grow up with my dad.
I didn't see my dad until I was10 years of age.
Yeah.
Because he was here.
Um, that's what I'm trying toprevent.
The reason why I haven't goneinto kids because of that.
(32:07):
I'm trying to prevent that,right?
Because my wife's still there.
I don't want my kid to not seeme for 10 But yeah, he didn't
see him for 10 years.
I did.
I'm up to now, you know, I amtrying to bridge that gap with
my dad by being friendly withhim by watching sports with him
or like making jokes because ithasn't been there.
And so there's no, there was nota lot of connection to that
(32:29):
name.
I still like him.
You know, he's my dadregardless.
Um, so I left the detail mebecause it's still part of his
name.
But the Henon, like what highschool, like halfway through my
life or no, I know I'm nothalfway through my life, but a
significant period of my life.
He added name that I have noconnection to the thank God for
American citizen thing.
You could remove it and choosewhatever name you want.
(32:51):
I was like, please, I'm notchanging.
Just remove that one.
Stick to Africa.
Could you tell me my 20 years or25 years or whatever?
Let's just, let's just continuewith that.
And, um, yeah, my dad still hasthat name.
You can have it.
It's fine.
It's all good that I didn'tconnect it at all.
am (33:10):
There's a distinction actually between kind of label
and name.
Right, so that, that, that, thatsecond last name you got wasn't,
didn't exist as name for you.
It exists as a label.
Kay Pinky (33:19):
Yeah, yeah, the label.
With no connection, no feeling,no interest.
The D tomy, I had a lot ofmemories of it in school.
People were using it.
People would call it Mr.
D tomy and people would makejokes with it.
Like, I have a connection withit.
If I don't have a connectionwith the name, it's pointless.
Every other name I have aconnection with.
Gaming, crypto, you know, Kaki,you know.
(33:40):
Yeah.
There's a, you know, even thekhaki shorts, like, you know,
khaki, the brown, whatever.
Sure.
There's a connection with thatwhere people, people, anytime
someone, we used to wear that inhigh school, everyone, um,
they'll, they'll, they'll say,hey, go work, go work, you know,
K shorts or khaki shorts.
And they'll all point to me.
Like, there's a connection to itsomehow, you know what I mean?
(34:01):
I still need to work on mytalking.
Can't help it.
Which part?
Stopping or cutting it down, butit's not, it looks like it's not
going to happen.
I'm actually trying to keep itlow now, keep it down.
Mo (34:13):
A principal in like, um, middle school.
Um, I forgot his last name, buthe, he has a doctor title.
So he made sure everyone alwaysreferred to him as doctor
instead of principal.
So like, that was hissubstitute.
I forgot what his last name was,but.
He didn't, he didn't, he didn'twant to be principal of
something, he wanted to be adoctor of something.
And we were asking like, what'sthe, why?
He was like, because I workedhard for it.
am (34:33):
That's my title.
There's a, um, this amazingwoman I met, I'm still connected
to her on, on LinkedIn, like,you know, 10 or 12 years ago at
a event in, in Atlanta.
Uh, it was an Enneagram event,which, which we have to do
Enneagram in here at some point.
Um, it was an Enneagram event.
And, um, because we're oncamera, I won't say her actual
(34:54):
name, I'll change it, but sheintroduced herself.
My name is Dr.
Johnson.
Right.
In this group, kind of going,okay, Dr.
Johnson.
And then later, we'll kind of,you know, more casual, and I see
the name tag says Dr.
Johnson on the name tag.
And I said, oh, so what's yourfirst name?
What should I call you?
She goes, Doctor.
I said, oh, okay.
Anyway, turns out that's herfirst name.
(35:15):
Oh, wow.
Her father.
Hold on.
Her father.
Deep South.
Black man, and had been throughsome shit apparently, right?
He had seven kids, named one ofthem Doctor, was the first name,
named another one Lawyer, namedanother one.
(35:37):
His thinking was that just totalk to you, they're going to
have to give you a label ofrespect.
And then you're going to holdyourself to that standard.
So from birth, like you are Dr.
Johnson.
Because that's your potential inthe world.
From birth, you are LawyerJohnson.
Kyley (35:53):
Wow.
am (35:53):
Because that's your, so all her siblings have these names
that are titles, as first names.
Because this thing was like, youwill, like talk about powerful,
claiming a name, right?
Like a name, claiming anidentity, claiming a place,
claiming a dignity, claiming andall that.
It's pretty, pretty spectacular.
And she, man, she owned it.
You know, whether it was justfluke or whatever, I attribute
(36:13):
it to, you know, that, thatupbringing and that name.
That, like, she was, she had a.
magnificence about her becausethis is somebody who like spent
her life like I am here, youknow, not in an ego way, but
like I am here.
It's just beautiful.
Was she an actual doctor?
So she was PhD.
Mo (36:29):
Oh,
am (36:29):
so she can go to medical rep.
She got a PhD.
So she's technically Dr.
Dr.
Johnson.
I was just about to say,
Mo (36:34):
you call it Dr.
Doctor?
Yeah.
I was going to ask, so if it wasjust her first name, did she
just have the D R in her lastname?
am (36:41):
No, it was Dr.
D O C T.
It was actually, let me ask herfirst because she spelled it
out.
And I was like, oh, so what'syour first name?
Oh, the first name?
Kay Pinky (36:47):
That's cool.
I think there have been peoplewho've gotten two PhDs and they
actually are called Dr.
Doctor.
And so if this person got twoPhDs, you call them Dr.
Dr.
Dr.
Johnson.
That's intense right there.
am (37:00):
Yeah, yeah, it's, so, so, so, so what about the kids then?
Like, what, what, what, we don'tovertly pay attention to this.
Like, we're really like, we areovertly like, okay, what do you
want to be called when you'rehere?
What do we, so we kind ofovertly pay attention to it that
way.
But I'm curious if you guys seeanything, um, that emerges
(37:21):
around people kind of moredeeply claiming their name.
Like, anything at one.
I won't say names, uh, out, outin Stanford.
Yeah.
Very much kind of, you know, with us, I think before with
anybody else, it seemed like,claimed a name.
Kyley (37:35):
At least organizationally.
am (37:36):
Yeah.
Kyley (37:39):
The thing that I think strikes me most is the confusion
around the question sometimes.
Or it's like, what do you wantus to call you?
Well, people call me this.
Yeah, yeah.
Well, what do you want us tocall you?
I don't know.
And that's.
Cool, think about it.
Let me, let me know what you,what you want to be called and
we'll, that's what we'll worktowards.
(37:59):
Yeah.
Kay Pinky (38:00):
I've actually heard that specifically as a student.
Kyley (38:02):
Yeah.
I don't, I don't know.
Um, I've actually had an adultstudent come in.
I was like, what do you, I canjust be called anything here?
And they're like, yeah, you,you, think about it.
I don't know.
Well, I want to be here.
Kay Pinky (38:18):
It's also interesting because like this, uh, this has
become a space where they'recomfortable saying.
Call me this, uh, but when, whenthis, when my parents are here,
don't call me
Kyley (38:31):
this, you
Kay Pinky (38:32):
know, that's interesting, that's really
interesting.
am (38:42):
It's, it's, it's, it's a really big deal to name
yourself, you know, to likeactually name yourself, um,
which isn't about changing yourname necessarily, right?
But naming yourself and, andwhat we see happening in the
world in a very positive way.
And then.
You know, unfortunate backlashjust to a people naming
themselves in terms of theirgender identity and their sexual
identity all that like that,that to me is the process I'm
(39:03):
naming yourself like I am, youknow, and this is how this is
the, the, the, you know, theidentity container that you will
reference me in, right?
Very powerful.
Um, and yet still very foreign.
Yeah.
Mo (39:28):
Some, some students who like, uh, were set on going that
tech career path that like,sometimes I would, I would, if
they do group projects, I'd belike, Oh, so you're like the
front engineer, you're a projectmanager, you're the back end.
And they would actually like,like, yeah, yeah, I am.
Yeah, I'm, I'm doing this rolefor my project.
Yeah, you can call me the backend engineer for this group.
So sometimes take ownership ofthe.
(39:48):
Potential titles they might havein the careers they might
choose.
Kyley (39:51):
So I actually have a deep set of version to that.
Cause I, my dad, I built a bunchof cool stuff out of connects.
And I was like nine.
I remember the moment I waslike, man, you could be an
engineer.
And since then I'm like, I couldbe an engineer.
And it wasn't like I could be anengineer.
Like it's possibility.
It's like, this is like anidentity that was placed on me
that continued to manifestthroughout my lifetime.
(40:14):
And like, uh, I am.
And I didn't like it.
I have those skill sets, but Idon't want to be an engineer.
And I've, I've, I've tried to bereally careful with that
sometimes.
I think, how do you make it seeas possibility without putting a
developing mind into this is nowa, now your thing.
am (40:34):
So I told the story on, on, on, on Wednesday as well, on the
podcast, I had that exact sameexperience, Kylie.
And I got like, you know, it'slike, If you get born, if you're
like 200 years ago, and you getborn big, like just genetically,
you know, by the time you're 14,you're 6'4 and you don't do
anything but you just put onmuscle, like you have a certain
(40:57):
physical capability.
And if people tell you that,yeah, you got born with that
physical capability, and youshould lead with that, right?
You should be a warrior.
You should be a, you should takeover the community.
You should, right?
pretty dysfunctional.
As opposed to you have access tothat and now you got to decide
how you want to use it.
Well, in the era I got born intoand that we still get, you know,
(41:19):
some going on, it's not, you gotborn physical, you got born
smart, quote unquote.
So I got tagged early on asreally smart.
Like that whole gifted kind oflabel, right?
They made me take IQ tests, thewhole deal.
Put me in the math classes andthere was, I can remember it so
vividly and it was done withsuch like positivity.
(41:40):
A, uh, seventh grade teachergave me the name human computer.
The computer, I've heard you usethat before.
And, and, but she like, youthought she was like supporting
this great thing.
This capability.
I have, I was taking calculusclasses in junior high school.
Like, you know, like, like a precalc in junior high school, uh,
finished calculus, like freshmanyear of high school.
(42:01):
So they did all my college calc,right?
It's great.
Human computer.
Like she thinks she'sacknowledging something great.
And I was miserable.
Yeah.
Because, like, what I wanted, when I had time, like,
I'm reading literature.
I'm watching as many movies as Ican.
I'm reading poetry.
I'm like, you know, wonderingwhere the philosophy books are
once I understand whatphilosophy is, right?
(42:24):
But everything around me is likethis, this, this.
And it was for me, I had ascholarship in physics.
Uh, it, uh, yeah, physics atRensselaer coming out of
college.
And like, that was supposed tobe my life.
And I had a literal freak outpanic breakdown after high
school graduation.
And I called them and said, I'mnot coming.
Thank you for the scholarship.
(42:45):
My immigrant parents totallylost their shit.
They're paying for you to gothere! And you cancel it! You
know, I, I, you know, you guysthought, it was like, what?
And I went off and studied, youknow, Chinese philosophy,
actually, Stu went off andstudied Chinese philosophy and
(43:06):
world music.
Because that was Stu.
That was a young kid.
But, but the exact same series,like this thing of people,
everybody doing it out of goodintentions, out of a desire for
me to be successful.
All nobody trying to oppress me.
And
I was horribly miserable because like, because I'm good
at it, that's what I have to do.
(43:28):
Even though I have no juice forit, that's what life is going to
be.
It was like, it's horrible.
It's horrible.
Horrible, horrible.
Yeah.
But we do that to people, you know, so it's like you're
gifted, you're just, that's, youknow, that's what you should do.
Kyley (43:44):
That's why, I mean, that's why I like the way you do
projects.
It's like, cool, you, you are,you are coding, but you're doing
this.
Like coding is, it's apaintbrush.
It's a, it's a whatever.
Make the thing you care about,the thing that matters to you.
That's, that's closer to who youare, who you're going to be than
the skills that we're teachingyou in this place and time.
Kay Pinky (44:04):
I'm thinking out loud like that.
Our students, when they'reworking on projects, especially
a team project, we say go pickup roles and, and they come up
back and they say, Oh, I'm the,I'm the CEO or whatever.
I'm the, I'm the owner or like,I'm the product project manager.
And these are names alreadycreated out there.
So they look, they look up theseroles and these are, these are
not their name.
(44:24):
Yeah.
And you can claim it as theirs.
These are not the names.
But when you were introducingScott, you said organizational.
I love that.
I love that.
Um, Picture in a scenario.
I know you gave it to Scott, butI'm picturing a scenario where
Scott comes in.
I forgot what the previous rulewas called.
Um, media, whatever.
Let's just say somethingprofessional media manager or
(44:46):
something.
And then you, this is a mepicture in a scenario where you
give it to Scott and Scott says,are you hired?
You're our new media manager.
And Scott says, all right,respectfully, I have one last
request.
I would love for you to call methe organization.
That speaks to several level ofconfidence.
Of you claiming your name rightthere, like, I think every
(45:07):
manager, every CEO would, evenif they don't approve it, would
just be fascinated and go like,Hmm, that's really interesting
the fact that you could makethat claim on the day you're
getting an offer.
You know, you're putting yourjob on the line to say what, you
know, you're trying to do.
I think that's a certain levelof confidence.
And that's like a, an example ofsomeone claiming a name right
there.
Kyley (45:27):
It's
Kay Pinky (45:27):
like I meet a manager, great, but I see myself
as an organization, I startedtelling If it works, we do as a
company.
Let's work out something.
I don't like this media managerthing.
am (45:37):
So this, this, this gets at the, the kind of, for me, the
core kind of dysfunction of, of,of what we've done to work and,
and organization, right?
Media manager is a machine partname, right?
It's a name, but it's a machinepart name.
It connects to the transactionsthat you're accountable for.
(45:59):
And by implication, theperformance standards that will
allow you to keep that name.
Right.
Something like organizationalstoryteller points you a value.
This is the value you providethat you generate.
Right.
And I think names like evenpersonal names, you know, um,
one of the, I think, baggages Ihad around Al, even though I
genuinely, like I'm cool withthat name.
(46:20):
I'm right.
But Al was smart.
Like that, that, that, that's inkind of just, just interwoven.
Right.
And when I think about otherfish and the people who call me
that, what that really is.
I'll push as a good kid, youknow, neither of those things is
bad, but they're interwoven withthose names.
And so to a certain degree, Ihave to be pay attention that
(46:43):
when I'm out, I'm not a machinepart and I'm going to be smart,
you know what I mean?
And so we do this to people.
We do it like job titles, asyou're pointing out.
But I think, I think people'snames, they're actually like
John can become a machine partthing.
Like this is your role in thefamily.
This is your role in thecompany.
It's your role in our friendgroup.
John is this, this is themachine part that you are in
(47:06):
this collective and you're notallowed to be anything else.
Kyley (47:08):
If you think of traditional, like European
names, Smith, Fletcher, theywere perfect.
What did you do?
I made arrows.
My family makes
am (47:18):
arrows.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's what the naming andreally
Kyley (47:22):
first names didn't come about until serfdom kind of
disappeared and people startedtraveling from town to town
where now you aren't.
Fletcher.
You have to have another nameattached to the Fletcher.
Kay Pinky (47:34):
Is Smith connected to like, Oh, yeah,
Kyley (47:38):
I
Kay Pinky (47:39):
was just about to ask that.
Yeah.
Kyley (47:41):
Yeah.
Yeah.
am (47:47):
You got to, you know, where, where, you know, where, where,
where the, where the term Ijust, I saw, uh, I saw Barbie
this past week.
Um, it's great.
It's great.
It's um, the, uh, Mrs.
It's like Mr.
Mrs.
You know, it misses.
Where that came from?
Oh, I used to know.
It's
Kyley (48:06):
horrible.
It's horrifying.
I mean, I know it's like anownership.
Yeah.
It's
am (48:11):
Mr.
apostrophe S.
Owned by Mr.
Owned by Mr.
It's literally what it was.
So if you're Mrs.
Johnson, it's Mr.
Johnson.
This is Mr.
Johnson's property asabbreviated to Mrs.
Is that crazy?
And miss, you weren't owned yet.
(48:32):
You weren't, you weren't part ofsome, yeah.
Kay Pinky (48:34):
You missed a mark.
am (48:35):
Yeah, you were, you know, you're pre, you're still on the
market, you know.
Kyley (48:39):
Yeah.
am (48:39):
You still get.
Unclaimed territory.
Kyley (48:40):
Unclaimed,
am (48:41):
unclaimed property.
Yeah.
You know, waiting for, for someman to claim you, right?
You have been missed.
My, my daughter, God bless her,my daughter, you know, she's her
own person in a million ways,but she and I have some great
DNA overlap, you know,psychologically.
She got into a fight in highschool.
Like, it wasn't like it, youknow.
She's up in this conversationamong her friends, you know,
(49:02):
like, boys, girls, you know,mixed group, and it really, you
know, she's in theater, and soshe had this big group of really
tight gang, you know.
And there were like seven oreight of them that were, like,
tight within that type of ring.
And so, you know, in highschool, have lunch together, you
know, whatever.
And this one day at lunch, uh,this thing of naming comes up.
Um, cause somebody's, like,older sibling is getting married
(49:24):
or something, right?
And this conversation aboutkeeping your last name when you
get married for the girls likekeeping my last name to get
married and you know, a coupleof the girls were like, yeah,
I'm gonna keep my last name.
So I was like, I am absolutelykeeping my last name when I get
married.
And a couple of boys like, Imean, you could see the value,
but that wasn't the hard part.
Sarah doubling down as, as wewant to do.
So, and actually when I havekids, those kids are going to
(49:47):
have my last name, not thefather's.
And one of her friends literallysaid, well, male friends, who's,
you know, nice guy, but.
Little, you know, grew up in abox.
Um, says to her, I don't thinkthat's legal.
And she apparently lied.
I wasn't there.
She told me this story after afact.
Right.
(50:07):
And she apparently like lost itwith him.
Like, because again, for hername, it's like, I gave birth to
this human.
It's getting my last name.
Excellent.
Not his.
Wow.
And so like that's naming a girl like I'm going to name, but
now what does that do to thekid, right?
Because now, now like it'sempowering for her.
Like I get to name, because itis like, you know, the, the,
(50:30):
the, what, what's all, you know,Saul Williams applying to, you
know, let your kids nameyourself, claim yourself in the
context of that in the name youcreate the thing.
Right.
And so for her, it is empoweringof like, no, I will name.
Right.
But then for the kid, itbecomes, you know, it's still
the same quandary down the road.
Like, did I name,
you know,
You can't get away from that one.
(50:50):
I think that's part of the, thekind of, you know, individuation
process is claiming your nameand it could be the exact same
name, but now it's, I claim it.
I named myself this, right?
So, you know, you keep Muhammad,but it's like now, no, now I
claim this name.
Kay Pinky (51:06):
Versus it was given to me.
If you think about it, it's themale's name that's really passed
on and the female's name isgoing away.
am (51:13):
It's gone, yeah.
Kay Pinky (51:14):
So it's like, it's the
Mo (51:15):
family giving away their daughter type of thing?
It's like, it's usually selling.
It's like a butter.
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Kay Pinky (51:22):
Here's some cows.
Yeah, yeah.
There's gold.
There's cows.
Yep.
There's a list they give you MoYeah.
The, so Ghana, I know about it.
Ghana, that's a tradition.
Like you're gonna get married.
The father of the woman Uhhuhgives you a list of things
mm-hmm To provide.
Yeah.
Yeah.
You know, but my, my, uh, myfather-in-law, he actually
(51:42):
didn't do that.
You know, he, he actuallydoesn't believe in that.
So he wrote a, a, a, he, hewrote a pa, he took a paper and
wrote a Bible quotation and thenput it in an envelope.
And, um, said I should give itto my people because that's how
it's done.
They gave it to me to give it tomy, I don't open it and I gave
it to my, but he kind of told meahead of time.
(52:03):
So I knew it and then theyopened it and I was like, what
is this?
What was the verse?
Do
am (52:07):
you
Kay Pinky (52:07):
remember the verse is talking about, uh, I can look it
up, but the verse is talkingabout, you can't put a price on
my daughter.
And so I'm giving my daughteraway.
That's some gangster shit.
Yeah.
It's like my daughter is worthmore than the list I'm going to
make you.
No matter how expensive, youknow, it is.
(52:28):
And he told me, he explained tome why he did that.
Um, it's like, there it is.
One Bible quotation.
Boom.
In an envelope.
And I knew it.
And I just gave it to them,dude.
And they were like, no, you'resupposed to give us something to
give them.
It's tradition.
And then he, you know, theyfought a little bit.
It was like, Nope, I'm not doinganything.
It's my daughter.
I'm giving my daughter away.
I'm not putting a price on her.
am (53:03):
Thank you for listening to Absurd Wisdom.
This is A.
M.
Bott, and you know,conversation, real human
conversation never actuallyends, but episodes of podcasts
need to.
So we're going to end here.
You can connect with me onInstagram and TikTok at, at
Absurd Wisdom.
You can find DAE on Instagram atdae.
(53:23):
community or online at mydae.
org.
Absurd Wisdom is produced anddistributed by DAE Presents, the
production arm of DAE, and we'llbe back with more Conversation
Beyond Understanding nextThursday.
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