April 25, 2024 • 49 mins
This episode of the podcast revolves around a deep and nuanced conversation among the speakers about the environmental, social, and ethical implications of everyday actions, particularly focusing on the theme of "plastic on plastic" as a metaphor for broader issues of waste and consumption. The dialogue opens reflecting on the absurdity of excessive plastic use, which segues into a broader discussion on the impact of choices and the way society navigates the balance between convenience and sustainability.
You can find a.m. on Instagram and TikTok at @absurdwisdom. We are produced and distributed by DAE Presents, the production arm of DAE (@dae.community on Instagram and online at mydae.org).
The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the speakers and do not necessarily reflect the views or positions of any entities they represent. While we make every effort to ensure that the information shared is accurate, we welcome any comments, suggestions, or correction of errors.
You can contact us at daepresents@mydae.org.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Kyley (01:45):
just had a moment of thinking around this idea that
you have and it probably doesn'talign because I didn't watch the
movie.
I wasn't in the mood.
Don't have the mindset to watchthe movie yet.
But this idea that you justbroke out a plastic container
with snacks, each individuallywrapped in plastic, and everyone
is excited, and I don't know howoften we actually, like, think
(02:07):
about that.
And it used to drive me insaneas a 20 year old being like, how
do you all live like this?
And I've just had to kind oflike, suffocate that part of
myself so I can exist inside ofthe society of not living in the
woods.
And.
Hunting your own squirrels andmaking your own loincloths out
of squirrel parts.
A.M. (02:24):
Yeah.
So this, this is exactly wheremy head went in watching that
film.
I mean, that's not where my headwent in watching the film.
When watching the film, my headwent to the film because it's,
it's, it's an immersiveexperience.
And we're, we're talking aboutfolks.
Hey, welcome folks.
That's
Kay Pinky (02:37):
an intro.
A.M. (02:37):
for this week.
For the crew was I, I finallygot around to watching Zone of
Interest, which I would verymuch recommend and recommend you
watch it when you have severalhours free afterwards to kind of
sit and, and, and ponder how youmake decisions and, and what the
legacy of those decisions willbe and, and how output and
efficiency may not be the bestmetric.
And, and so as I was kind ofsaying, I literally, like, you
(03:00):
know, I watch a lot of films.
I love cinema.
It's a real, like I finishedthis thing and I thought, it's
like, okay, this is one of the10, like best films I've ever
seen, I think.
Okay.
But I got to process it best inthe sense of not good or it's
good, but in terms of just, likefor me, art, whether it's a
theater or dance or piece ofmusic, It succeeds when it
(03:21):
leaves me with fundamentally newand high propagation inquiries.
Yeah, right.
Like it leaves me like I'mentertained.
Cool.
I'm appreciate the technicalaspects.
Cool.
But ultimately what it invitesme to do is to instantly forget
it and take the questions fromit or the inquiry from it or the
awareness from it and begin tolook around.
(03:43):
Right.
And, and so this, this, what youjust said about, about these,
you know, I brought in some,some Korean sweet rice cakes for
the crew cause I was picking upKimbap for, for our students for
today.
We have a presentation day.
And, and so this, this is thecontext.
I see you saying, you look atthese things, it's plastic
wrapped in plastic, wrapped inplastic.
I'm sitting here drinking coffeefrom a paper cup with a plastic
lid.
(04:03):
That's got a paper sleeve on itthat has all of, you know, 15
minutes of use and then gone
Kyley (04:09):
into a trash can where it doesn't actually get reused.
Just go into a big old dump ofstuff.
Yeah.
A.M. (04:13):
Yeah.
And, and, and so this issue ofsort of, you know how do you not
get burdened by just everysecond freaking out about the
plastic on plastic version of,of how we live in our lives.
But pay attention and reallymake decisions not on what's
like, really cool and reallyefficient and really like
amazing outcomes.
(04:33):
The genius of this film is just,just how sort of just banal and,
logical and good managementdiscipline that the dude running
Auschwitz is bringing to hisjob.
No, you know, ill intent, no, Imean, obviously you'll, it'll
massively impact.
But the focus is on theefficiency, and the
(04:53):
productivity, and theexcitement, and the, and the,
and the, my name is gonna be on,you know, in essence, there's a
point there where it's like, youachieved 300 percent
productivity increase, and we'regonna name the thing after you.
And he's proud.
But not in a sort of like, it'snot proud in the sense of I
watched the film, so let me getback to it, and so, like, we're
developing tech folks who arebuilding shit, That has all
(05:15):
kinds of potential impacts.
And, you know, since day one,since day zero, we've had the
conversation of, you know,humane technologists,
technologists who are kind ofaware of what they're doing.
And And that, that damn thingjust had me question, like, are
we doing, you know, 1 percent ofwhat we could be doing in terms
of really raising awarenesswithout wagging fingers and
inviting kids to freak out.
Scott (05:35):
Well, in the sense of the film, I did watch it in
preparation for this and
A.M. (05:39):
don't give away spoilers.
Scott (05:40):
No, just a few, few observations I was telling Kyley
earlier.
Like the sound design is amazingand horrific.
A.M. (05:48):
Yep.
Scott (05:49):
And to the point where it started, it was very kind of,
you know, lush atmosphere.
Atmospheric sound design beforeit got.
heavier and darker.
I thought to myself, Oh, I'mgoing to put my AirPods on and
listen to this and spatial.
And then I decided against it.
And then luckily I didn't, causeI probably wouldn't have slept
since then.
If that was the case because ofthe incidental noises and sounds
(06:11):
and stuff.
So it was a very, very, veryhard to sit with.
And I think I, you know, I alsomentioned I don't remember ever
being, engaged in a film likethat where I couldn't wait for
it to end.
I was like, how long is this?
I kept checking like how muchleft, you know, but I wanted to
watch the whole thing to beready for this.
And, you know, and also see whatthe hype was about you know,
(06:32):
awards and stuff.
And it was like, and then I wentto sleep and I was like, kind of
just laying there and like, youknow, staring, staring at a, you
know, little light in the cornerjust kind of like, Oh man,
Imagine if that was like outsidemy window, like how can I be one
of those people that turns itoff?
A.M. (06:49):
Not to, diminish the unimaginable magnitude of what
that particular thing is, butqualitatively, Scott, it is, it
is, you know, you walk downchapel street and you see the
outsourced impact of our amazingeconomic efficiency.
Scott (07:05):
Another thing that brought up was in a recent
episode with Ben Hellervisiting, you talked about
something you observed on thestreet and then, you know,
everybody being in a whiteout.
And there's one point in thefilm where it just goes to
white.
It was that same kind of thing.
But the sound continued andyou're just like white screen.
And it immediately made me thinkof that conversation that you
(07:26):
had, like, You know how thehuman brain is capable of just
shutting down when there's toomuch input, too much sensory
input and, you know, almost asif it's non important detail as
opposed to the most, you know,excruciating image that you can
think of.
A.M. (07:46):
There's a lighter.
Much lighter version of, of thegeneral, I mean it's not about
Auschwitz, it's not about, youknow, the bridge on the River
Kwai, have you ever seen that?
Alec Guinness, he's a Britishsoldier prisoner of war.
And they're building thisbridge, and they're, because
they're, they're just now, inessence, you know, slave labor,
they're prisoners of war.
And forced to build this bridge.
And Al Guinness is the, is thecommander on the, on the British
(08:08):
side of, you know, of theprisoners.
And he, like, gets more and moreenthusiastic about doing the
thing right and gets into, like,a fish.
And he's, at the end, he's proudof the bridge, like, look at
what we did.
And he has this moment ofrealization, like, oh, wait a
minute.
What did I just enable?
Right?
Kay Pinky (08:23):
Now I wish I watched the movie.
Kyley (08:25):
I don't know if I want you to watch the movie, Kay.
A.M. (08:26):
It's not, I mean cinematically, it's, it's not,
it's not heavy in the, in theway you'd expect, right?
A film about Auschwitz It's notheavy.
You don't, there's no violence.
There's no, see nothing of thecamp.
Scott (08:37):
A lot of nature and tranquility.
A.M. (08:38):
A lot of nature.
It's, this is the impact of it.
The horror of it is, you know,life in suburbia.
Mm hmm.
As things are happening.
So you don't need to see thefilm, Kay, you just gotta pay
attention to society.
So, again, I want to get, to tryto get out of the film and just,
just, Like, we all, you know, tosome degree or another, thread
this needle, right?
Of, of the nature of folks whowork here, who are part of our
(08:59):
community, have an awareness ofimpact.
Adverse impact and, and But I'mstill sitting with, you know,
with the kids, how do we notburden them with yet another
heavy thing?
not Germany, Auschwitz, etc.
Not another heavy thing in termsof accountability for your
efficiency accountability forthe you know thing, you know
down the downstream impact.
What are you actually servingagain?
(09:20):
We have that conversation withthem.
We work with them.
But but I'm genuinely sittingwith for next year How do we
radically particularly those whoare the kind of bleeding edge
of, of, you know, I won't namenames on that podcast, but you
know the kind of kids I'mtalking about who are, who are
actually going to build thingsthat are the next day, humans,
the next day, humans, exactly.
Like they're going to build likestuff not in 10 years, but in 10
(09:41):
months that, that potentiallyhave commercial liability, et
cetera.
And how do we not impose on themawareness of these kind of So
it's a difficult time and Ithink we all face this as adults
and there's a lot of issues ofwhat are we serving?
But continuing to invite that inthem and have them have a place
to take deeper and deeperaccountability for it.
Because they're wired that way.
I think about the next day kids,at least, you know, two of them
I'm fairly certain have aclarity of But that clarity only
(10:04):
extends as far as they're ableto ask questions.
Right.
And how do we help them askbigger and bigger questions.
Scott (10:09):
It's difficult with kids because they're I think it's
important to note that a lot ofthe historical, Context that
they get from older adults,especially you know, family,
educators, other people in theircircle.
They have no concept of timebecause it's, you know, before
their lifetime and a large chunkof their lifetime.
(10:29):
Ago if it was something morerecent.
So the, you know.
Does it make more sense to pointto cause and effect of things
that are happening as theybecome young adults and what are
those examples Is it too much toadd to their plate, Already
dealing with enough, you knowstress and anxiety and other
societal pressures as theyfigure out what they want to be,
(10:52):
or how they want to approach theworld?
Sam (10:54):
taking all of that in, and kind of thinking about
everything and what this reallybrings to mind is, I wouldn't
argue that it's, you know, like,the most current historical
things that, you know, thesekids are only focused on, I
think it's that, it's a lot It'shard to care about multiple
things and so many things, butthat doesn't mean that we
shouldn't or that we can't.
I think there's kind of beenthinking about this ever since
(11:14):
Kyley brought up about theplastic thing.
And I talk about this a lot aslike this concept of slow
violence.
Which was coined by Rob Nixon,which was mostly built in
relation to environmentalism.
So, slow violence is thisgradual sort of violence that's
delayed.
And the destruction is dispersedacross time and space.
And it's not typically viewed asviolence at all.
You know, oftentimes when peoplethink of violence, they think of
(11:35):
just like physically hurtingsomeone, like an action you can
see, but they don't think of,you know, climate change, they
don't think of gun policies,they don't think of those
things, but we're not seeing,for example, like how this
affects different genders,different people, for example
because of pollution, we had alot of birth defects for
individuals that like basicallyharmed their lives, and that was
violent, it hurt them, it wasover time.
(11:56):
And so this concept kind ofunderstands we use this tool
called Ecomaps, a lot of thework that I do.
And a lot of Ecomaps canunderstand, like, where
individuals end up in lifebecause of the different things
around them.
So sometimes it's the morerecent things, some things that
they can see.
Sometimes it's the macro things,the people in their life, the
people they interact with, theplaces that they go, the places
they have access to.
But there are things that welook at that are more than that.
(12:17):
So we look at exosystems,mesosystems, we look at things,
for example, policies thathappened 20 years ago, and how
that could affect, for example,immigration, how that affected
your parents coming here, andhow that could affect you to
today, and looking at how thosethings affect you as people, and
could basically put people insituations where they are now
victims of slow violence and theproblem with slow violence is
there's no one person you canever point to and say like
(12:39):
you're the cause of this becauseit's so gradually dispersed.
It's so silent that we don't seeit coming And I think one of the
things that a lot of peopledon't realize is kind of what
you're speaking to Scott Isthere's this you know, like it's
not gonna affect me This isgoing to affect someone else or
maybe a little bit.
So I don't really have a hand onthis.
So this thing I'm making It'sjust a test or it's just you
know, it will just see where itgoes But we don't really think
(13:02):
of like the gradual thing overtime that can affect people And
when you take that step back andyou look at yourself like as an
individual that's affected bythe people around you the things
you've done the policies thewars all of those things that
make you who you are without youeven realizing is this
historical trauma that your bodyis keeping count of A lot
changes for how you view theworld And I think it's really
complex to bring that to a highschool mindset because there is
(13:23):
just so much going on.
They are victims of the slowviolence that's now compounding
from these teacher shortages andall of these things that are
happening.
And I think this all comes fromthis metric of like, we need to
have more money, we need to, youknow, we're a capitalist
society, and we're not reallyrealizing that, like, we need to
give the freedom for theseindividuals to explore these
concepts of who they are.
And I think it's funny.
(13:43):
I actually brought this up toKay earlier that I had said
something to him and I was like,Oh, you know, I'm like, it's a
joke and I'm sorry.
And Kay was like, no, no, it'sfine.
And I was like, I recognizethat.
But something that I realize isreally important is like,
regardless of our intention, wecan hurt others.
Right.
So we can honor our intention,but it's more important that we
recognize our impact.
And I don't think a lot ofpeople sit with that because
even the smallest things canhave a very large impact on
(14:05):
people.
A.M. (14:06):
So just as you, when you were speaking, Sam, you reminded
me of another aspect of thefilm.
It becomes obvious at one point,it's, it's sort of said in
passing in dialogue a couple oftimes, but it's made very clear
that, that these people comefrom quote unquote nothing,
economic nothing, right?
The, the core family here that,that's now, you know, the
husband's running Auschwitz Andthey're like, like, my God, we
(14:26):
made it.
Like they got, you know, a nicehouse and a garden adjacent to
Auschwitz, right?
And there's a palpable sense of,oh my God.
At one point the wife's mothercomes to visit and she's like,
Oh my God, look at this.
Amazing.
Who would have thought you wouldhave gotten here?
I think I've talked about mypast, you know, in like, you
know, extreme poverty and comingout of it in India.
And I've always been like reallyuncomfortable being able to buy
(14:49):
shit.
Laughter.
Like I, I, I alwaysintentionally live really,
really, really below my means,not out of any sense of
nobility, not out of any senseof, but literally I am just
uncomfortable.
It just feels like, like weird,you know.
the normalization is, And so forour kids, they think about like,
of course they want to make it,right?
(15:09):
I mean, you know, so they'revictims of slow violence,
they're victims of economicdeprivation, they're, you know,
these things.
And of course the narrative isyou got to make it.
And we want them to make it inthe sense of, you know, having a
comfortable life and being ableto take care of themselves and,
and people they love.
And in the context of that,again, I go, I don't have an
answer.
I just keep asking the question,mainly of myself, right?
In the context of that, like,how do you, you know, how do you
(15:30):
encourage?
Yeah, make it.
But, but, but I don't want,here's the thing that's kept me
up since I watched this.
Well, that kept me up, but itkind of kept me up, preoccupied
me.
Like, I, you know, there's alarge tech firm that I worked
with early on, right?
And I'm like, some of the folksI work with, you know, say like,
you know, massive contribution.
We wouldn't have gotten some,but, but I'm, I'm, I have no
delusion.
Like I'm a footnote of afootnote of a footnote of a
(15:50):
footnote of a footnote on theimpact I had and what that
company became.
And even that microscopic impactI to this day have like such
weight around because I got paidwell for those years.
I was with them as an advisor.
I got paid really well and Ithought we were doing good work
and it was cool and it wasexciting.
And I look back now and I'mlike, What, what, you know,
(16:11):
again, one, one millionth of 1percent contribution to that
thing is still a contribution tothat thing.
And, and so I don't want tolook, so that's not what, what,
what preoccupies me.
I don't want to look back in 20years and say, here's a DAE kid
and like high fives all around.
This thing's been around 25years now, and we're really
successful in 15, 000 kids wentthrough.
(16:31):
And I don't want to look back.
And the next Elon came out ofDAE.
Or the next, you know, fill inthe blank.
And, and, and to a certainextent, that's unavoidable.
It's, you know, we're notaccountable for people's, right?
But, but, but the question is, Iknow we're not doing enough.
What is there more to do toinvite awareness, not impose it,
not burden it, but invite moreand more and more awareness as
(16:52):
we get to the next phase of thisthing?
We have some baby Elon's.
That come through here.
And, and how do we help them be,kind of, settled in themselves
more and more and more so thatas they become, you know, hot
shit they move with a differentawareness.
Sam (17:05):
You have to take your product out into the world for
the people you serve.
I often say this as like aperson who became an LGBT
advocate is, I'm not an LGBTadvocate, I'm an ally, and I
constantly earn thatterminology.
If the community I'm looking toserve doesn't see me as an ally,
I'm not doing my job right.
Even if I identify within thatcommunity, even if I think I
know everything, I don't.
Because every community isdifferent.
(17:25):
And I think that's an importantaspect of building anything is,
is understanding like, okay,cool.
You built this project.
You think it's going to work?
You think you understand it,take it on the community, have a
genuine conversation, have themtry it out.
Even if it's just the peoplearound you, talk to your
classmates about it, talk toyour parents about it, talk to
people that you're not even surewould even use this thing and
see how accessible it is.
Like, see, see what thoughtscome up and genuinely listen to
(17:46):
those thoughts and concerns,because oftentimes I feel like
that's what leads to successeswhere oftentimes.
And I always talk about this asmoving into this ivory tower,
where once you think you knoweverything, you kind of get
blinded by this idea of your ownknowledge.
You think that you are theexpert in this thing, and you
quite probably are, but you arenot the expert on every
community, and communities aredynamic.
People are dynamic.
(18:07):
People are fluid and everchanging, and the things we
develop need to, like, they needto be holistic.
But they also need to reflectthat dynamic change that we as
individuals have, and that is aconstant challenge that you can
always build into tech.
And I think that's veryprobable, but I think it's, tech
doesn't move at the same likepace that people do.
And so it can be very difficultto match that energy.
A.M. (18:28):
mean, Expertise is actually in the way of
understanding those communities,right?
Because the more you know andthe more certain you are in your
knowledge the less listening youhave.
I was teaching a class lastnight, and we're focused on on
sort of early stages of designthinking and spent the entire
three hours really, you knowFocusing in on kind of empathy
and subjectivity versusobjectivity and expertise And
(18:49):
and the challenge for apractitioner to actually, you
know be subjective but rigorousto be empathetic but rigorous
It's easy to be I mean, it's alot of work, but it's easy to be
objective and rigorous Becauseyou don't have to get involved
and you don't have to payattention to yourself to a
certain degree, right?
And so one of the things inwhich you're saying, Sam, like,
you know, as a tactic, like, we,we sort of blow by empathy
(19:10):
mapping.
Like, we give it space, but weblow by it in the sense of,
right, and, and, and as a, justa, to go from 100, 000 feet down
to 5 feet, you know, a tacticalthing to consider is how does
that become more of a livingprocess?
How can we get our students intocommunities?
How can we get community intohere?
More because, you know, theorientation, the people who fund
(19:31):
us and they're all great.
It's not, nobody's doinganything wrong, but the
orientation is, If we said tothem, you know, we want to
bring, you know users of thiskid's works in, they'd be like,
cool, which corporations wouldyou like us to introduce you to?
And that's obviously not whatwe're talking about.
We want them to go and influencethe corporations in positive
ways.
So, so maybe somewhere in thatearly part of their experience
here, we do need to find ways toget them more directly in touch
(19:53):
with their own community, butfrom the perspective of a
designer of a builder of acoder.
Sam (19:58):
I think that just involves a reflexive process.
Understanding theirpositionality and things.
I mean, I'm doing researchcurrently.
Okay, I taught you these terms,so I know you know what I'm
talking about.
But positionality is kind of,when you're looking at research,
it's understanding where youcome from.
Why you're studying the thingsyou're studying.
And reflexivity is an ongoingprocess of doing that.
And I think, Even in my work,right, I'm not sitting and
(20:18):
working with my community everysingle day because I don't have
access to it.
But the other day, literallyyesterday, I did an ethnographic
observation.
So I just sat in the DAEcommunity and I tried to
understand what this space is.
And it was so funny because Iimmediately went to Kay and I
was like, I want to make myentire case about you, just
specifically you, because I havenever taken in all of the
nuances that you have as aneducator that you do to make
(20:39):
people warm.
Like Kay made so much eyecontact And I was like, I am
supposed to be just an observer,but he still tried to bring me
into the space without verballydoing so.
And I just, I noticed everythingthat he was doing was this
active engagement process.
And that taught me a lot aboutthe space and what we do as
educators by just sitting andobserving and writing with all
of my senses, being in thespace, like taking it all in.
(21:00):
And I had never just slowed downhere to realize like, wow, I
feel okay.
This feels okay, and I never,like, realized that, like, Kay
does so much to, like, when youcome in, you feel warm, and
safe, and willing to try newthings without ever saying a
word to you.
And I think that's beneficialfor students.
Maybe they don't have to sitwith, like, big corporations,
(21:22):
but maybe they can just sit fora moment in a park in their
school with their friends.
See, smell, hear, look.
Observe, read, write, paint, allof those things and really take
in all of those senses andrealize like, what does this
mean for what I'm making, whatdoes this tell me, and how am I
making this safe for others?
A.M. (21:39):
So Sam, this is so, you're connecting a dot for me that
somehow I did just let, let,just kind of slide, right?
When the state people were inthis past week for their, for
their annual audit and in thekind of final debrief, one of
the things I was, you know, ifyou were going to send to them
is like, you know, We don'tapproach students
psychologically andsociologically.
We're not starting with anassessment, a diagnostic.
(22:00):
We're in essence starting withan ethnography of that
individual student.
And, and just hearing whatyou're saying, like that, that
may be a, a, you know, certainlya tactical thing to do, but a
more, you know, philosophicalthing is, is.
Can we get more rigorous in the,you know, sort of an
ethnographic approach to eachstudent, but then in that
process, invite them and givethem tools and give them some,
(22:23):
some outputs to, to worktowards.
That is, you know, okay, take,take an ethnographic approach to
the world you're living in andhave that, you know, that, that
felt lived experience informyour initial sets of project
designs.
That just, you know, In my bodyfeels like a good direction to
start moving in more formally.
I know we do it informally, butI think, I think that would feel
(22:43):
really good to me.
Because the body doesn't lie.
Like I talk about this a lot inthe grad school, you know, the
body listens in a way that, thatthe mind, you know and it shows
up in the film.
Like near the end, I don't wantto give this away, right?
But if you listen this way, youknow There are things that will
short circuit your kind ofrational linear efficiency mind
and, and open up perspectives.
Kyley (23:04):
I'm going to ask a question that came to my mind
and it's getting a little AtlasShrugged for me.
So I want to be careful andrecognize this isn't necessarily
what I believed, but it's agenuine question that I have.
And I guess from personalexperience, right?
Growing up with the family thatI grew up with, I had a bunch of
wild ideas, and if I use them asa sounding board or as the
community that I was like, like,like watching, being aware of
perceiving and went down thepath that they thought was
(23:27):
beneficial, I would probably becausing harm for folk, right?
How, like, How do you get macrobeyond that and supporting
something larger than this oneindividualized community?
One individualized perspective?
And the way you're approachingsolutions.
Sam (23:42):
Look at your privilege.
Like look at what you have asopposed to what others have
engaged with other communities,be willing to step into those
spaces and kind of take areflective look at yourself.
Ethnographic observations arealso about self reflection.
So I would say probably reflecton yourself and engage with
others that are radicallyoutside of your view.
And kind of do a comparativeanalysis and see how that makes
(24:04):
you feel and why that makes youfeel that way like what brings
that up for you like where doesthat come from and Taking a step
back and Sitting with that andthen moving towards a direction
that maybe you can't get rid ofall the plastic on plastic, but
what maybe what you can do tostart bringing more
environmentally friendly spaceshere, like looking at how we
recycle, talking about thoseconversations, just bringing
that knowledge is more importantthan like, it's better that you
(24:26):
said something for us to atleast have that in the space.
And I've never said it at all.
Kyley (24:30):
Yeah.
I don't know if I can frame thisthe way that it comes into my
brain, but even like that, like,if I start talking about
recycling, in a lot of placesrecycling doesn't work.
And so, like, I'm not actually,like, I don't know how you have
enough information in somecapacity to be able to make,
like, you can make the choicesin the moment based on what you
have, and you keep getting moreinformation based on what you
have.
But I guess it's the awarenesspiece.
(24:51):
I guess I'm processing my own,like, internal dialogue right
now with how I approach life,but it's just a continual
question, like, I don't, andit's my own, like, I don't know
how to continue to exacerbatethings, because that's, even
when I solve stuff, it goes intoexacerbation, and so it's more
of a process of solving, and Iwonder how,
Sam (25:09):
I would say that's your problem.
You're trying to solve thingsrather than question things.
Like, you're looking, you're,you're never going to be able to
solve anything because if, areal practitioner would never
ever try to solve anythingbecause that's a band aid for a
larger thing.
If you think your product isgoing to solve everything,
You're dead wrong.
I hate to say it, but you'rewrong.
What you need to be is a personthat questions everything and
engages with the communitiesbecause communities know what
(25:31):
they need.
So if you're looking to developsomething, maybe recycling
doesn't work in that community,but maybe there's something akin
to it that's environmentallyfriendly that does.
And having conversations withthe community is like, instead
of like, Hey, fix this thingwith a straightforward answer.
Like, this is what we'rethinking.
Just like, how do you think thisthing started?
Why do you think this thing ishappening?
What are the blockers for you?
Kyley (25:50):
Yeah, that question is like, does the community know
what they need?
Sam (25:52):
Yes.
Kyley (25:53):
Okay.
Sam (25:54):
I would say they do.
A.M. (25:55):
Collectively.
Yeah.
No one individual may know, butin the interaction of the
community.
Yeah.
Sam (25:59):
And that's where, like, ethnographic interviews come to
play, where you start building,kind of like you have these
large open ended questions, andthen as you have a conversation,
you start to identify convergingthemes.
And identify what those themesare and create like identify
markers that built or something,
A.M. (26:13):
you know, much more about natural ecosystems than I do.
But I think this is how itoccurs in natural ecosystems
where over long time horizons,the ecosystem conspires in a
certain way to make room for acertain kind of fungus because
we need more nitrogen or what?
Yeah, again, I don't know thisway out of my, you know but that
collectively, you know, no, no,no tree or blade of grass made
(26:34):
the decision.
But collectively, there's anintelligence that This is what's
needed to balance the system.
Kyley (26:39):
But the difference between that and what we're
speaking to is like naturedoesn't ask.
A.M. (26:44):
Right.
Kyley (26:44):
And we're asking and interpreting and doing whatever
nature is.
Yeah.
And then that's, that's where Iget kind of caught up.
A.M. (26:50):
I would gently push back on nature doesn't ask.
Okay.
Cause there's a constantconversation going on.
it's had in chemicals andminerals and proteins and
enzymes.
And so your body asks foroxygen.
Your liver asks for oxygen in acertain way, right?
Through sending certain, like ifyou're under threat or if you're
running, the adrenaline andthese things are released in
(27:14):
response to a request from thesystem because it needs more
oxygen.
It needs oxygen processed morequickly.
Kyley (27:20):
And
A.M. (27:21):
so these things are being released as a response to a kind
of request, which is a systemtrying to seek balance, and the
balance it's trying to seek isproper oxygenation of all the,
you know, organs of the body.
Sam (27:31):
I feel like communication happens in more ways than just
like verbal or written, and Ifeel like nature, it may not
ask, but it does communicate.
Kyley (27:39):
Oh, for sure, it definitely communicates.
I'm just like,
Sam (27:42):
And that's what you look out for.
Kyley (27:44):
Even scalerly, right?
An overpopulated deer populationdoesn't necessarily, Hey, please
murder a few of us so thatthere's less of us so that we
don't overeat all the things.
Like, deer just die.
Right?
Like, it's a different kind ofconversation.
A.M. (27:57):
Yeah, so, okay, so let me get what I think you're pointing
to, but a different way, and theway that I've and I don't know
if this is right, but what I'vealways been working on Is not
like, I don't know how to get toall the solutions or all the
right.
I don't know.
And so what I've worked out overthe years is a handful of
precursors to humans that aren'tgoing to fuck shit up.
(28:20):
And maybe they'll actually dosomething productive, but I
mean, right.
And here are the handful ofprecursors.
And so the design of this place,they feel like they belong.
Humans who don't feel like theybelong are reliable for creating
bad stuff.
Humans who understand enough.
Humans who fundamentallyunderstand what enough is for
them.
Humans who are comfortable intheir own skin.
Who have a sense of, I'm okay.
(28:41):
Not I'm perfect, not I'm smart,but I'm okay as I am, right?
There's a few others, butthere's a handful of precursors
that like, you can help a humanbeing find these places for
themselves.
I belong.
I'm okay.
I'm okay.
I understand what my thresholdof enough is, et cetera.
Nature, the tree doesn't need tobe taught those things.
Kyley (28:59):
Mm-Hmm.
A.M. (29:00):
the tree understands enough.
It's never gonna hoard morewater than you know, or more of
a certain type of mineral.
It under quote unquoteunderstands it belongs in the
ecosystem of things it, right.
And so, yeah, there isn't thekind of asking that, that, that
humans do.
But I think we, you know, a lotof.
I'm spec again.
I'm not a researcher and I don'tknow, but anecdotal evidence
(29:21):
over 30 years that human beingsthat can be, you know, can be
helped to level set around someof these foundational things.
These come from internally aremuch more reliable for not,
reaching for the 2nd and 3rd and4th house.
Kyley (29:36):
Yeah,
A.M. (29:36):
much more responsible for at least having an awareness of
yeah.
the outsourced economic impactof their ambition, et cetera, et
cetera.
Because they're not trying tofill all these things to me are
ways to fill foundational thingsin dysfunctional ways.
The second, third, fourth houseis in some way trying to fill.
I don't have a relationship withenough or I don't have a
(29:57):
relationship with belonging or Idon't have a relationship with
I'm okay.
If I'm okay, and I'm enough, andI have a place where I belong,
where I feel genuine I belong, Idon't need these things.
I may very well enjoy thesethings, absolutely.
lions don't kill zebras.
In fact, we'll lay right next tothem when they're full.
They don't just consume the nextzebra because it's there.
(30:17):
And after they're full.
Because they, they, you know,understand enough, not
understand like, you know,intellectually the way we do.
Scott (30:24):
You mentioned awareness.
I think that's the, that's thekey.
Cultivating that awareness andmaintaining it and realizing it
when it goes away.
Like, oh, I was unaware of thisaspect of the group or the
situation.
So talking about when you weretalking about Kay, that's what I
see, like when you're talkingwith the students, you know, if
you're talking to students andthere's like a third that's not
(30:44):
engaged right there, you'relike, Hey, what about you?
Like, and get them into theconversation that sort of
creates that awareness for them.
Like, Oh, I'm part of this.
I'm, you know, I'm not, I'm notexternal.
And I wondered yesterday whatyou were doing, like off in the
corner, like taking notes andstuff.
But now I get it.
Cause I see like.
You just watching the organismkind of work as a whole unit and
you know, I do that using, youknow, video and audio to try to
(31:07):
do, try to capture some of thatstuff to you know, throughout
the semesters.
A.M. (31:11):
And back to, you know, very first episode of this
thing, we're born into aneconomy and not a culture, you
know, cultures provide thesethings.
Like if you're born into anintact culture.
Longstanding culture.
There are, you know, mythologiesand stories and ways of being
that are tied to enough, thatare very much tied to belonging.
They're very much tied to yourplace in the scheme of things.
(31:33):
And, and you can't, and I have,you know, I have my friends, you
know, well intentioned, wellmeaning, genuinely, you know,
long term acquaintances but whoare like, Oh yeah, I belong.
Absolutely.
We need that in the world.
I'm working on a, on a six monthworkshop on belonging.
No, you don't.
Oh, being comfortable in yourown skin.
I'm working on a, on a, no, it'sthe environment that you're in.
It's a way to design the space.
(31:54):
But as soon as you abstract itand make it into a thing to do,
you've already lost it.
It's in the space.
And so you could build a bakerythat reinforces belonging.
You can have a school thatreinforces I'm okay.
You can have a, you know, a cardealership that invites a
relationship to enough based onthe design of it.
It is not, as soon as youabstract it, you've lost
Kay Pinky (32:15):
it.
question that was ringing in myhead for the past five minutes
or so, which is, Exactly whatyou said.
Can you teach, can you teachsuch a thing or it's as a result
of an environment?
Like, I talk about Jacque Frescoall the time, where it's like,
it's almost impossible to liveoutside of your environment.
And maybe it's something youcould draw people's attention
to, but the environment alwayslike sucks you back in.
(32:37):
I guess the question is how doyou kind of bring more awareness
or how do you, not, not teach,but how do you just bring, bring
more people?
To the idea of you're okay.
Like those spaces you create.
A.M. (32:47):
I think we do a decent job of it and a much better job than
the norm.
And I think it's what Sam justsaid about you, like around you.
Like, it's just it's how youshow up and how you engage is
what has the impact.
And, you know, as used to happenprevious communities, now we
have, what do you have comingback?
Right?
We have, we have, we have analumni event.
We've got, you know Krish, who'sdoing a video for us, this week,
(33:07):
right?
The, the, the, these are ourelders.
These, this is the emerginggroup of village elders that are
coming back in now.
And, you know, over time, moreand more and more are taking
accountability for this thingaround showing up in the space
that invites, you know.
I'm very clear that it's notefficient, that it's not
mappable, but I don't, I'venever found anything more
(33:30):
reliable than just have peoplein the environment who show up
this way.
And over time that environmentgets built and people come in,
then.
We'll engage this way.
I'm looking for, how do we, howdo we ramp it up?
I'm feeling an urgency to, youknow, without getting
artificial, but right, withoutcreating a program, you know,
here's a module on belonging.
We want you to know you belong.
Here's a module on like, but howdo, how do we up the stakes?
Kay Pinky (33:53):
It's definitely possible.
Cause like for me, coming fromGhana, there are certain,
certain mindsets that I have.
Yeah.
That like that I'm so aware of,even in the midst of the
opposite of like that mindsetthat I, that I just, that I just
know I can, I can realize thedifference and and stick to it
and stick to one mindset, youknow?
So I think it's possible.
I don't know how it allhappened.
(34:13):
I, I don't know how it allhappened, but but I think
there's a level of understandingfrom the human, from the person,
you know?
Yeah.
This level of understanding oflike, why?
Why am I enough?
Why is it enough?
That needs to be present forthat to happen.
Because it's not something youtell someone to go through.
The person needs to kind of liveit and understand it.
And be it.
A.M. (34:33):
And Kay take accountability for it.
I won't say a name, but, butthose who know us and certainly
people in this room will knowwho I'm talking about.
But I had a conversationyesterday with somebody in here,
a young man who's been with usfor quite some time.
And, and he just sent yetanother message to me on a topic
where I was just like blown awayat the level of, of just grace
and maturity in somebody in thestate.
And I had the conversation withhim, I called him and I said,
(34:54):
listen, I know I blew smoke yourway.
And it's, it's out of balancefor, you know, your employer to
have, you know, but, but I justkeep feeling me to have these
conversations like, A, I wantyou to be aware of just like how
unique you are in terms of yourlevel of, you know, impact and
authenticity.
And, and, but B, and this is aboundary violation, but I'm
going to say it.
I need you to like, takeaccountability for it.
(35:17):
Whether you like it or not,you're going to be a leader.
Whether you want it or not,people are going to look to you
as a reference point and youlikely dismiss it because it's
just natural expression for you.
Right?
Like, no, this is just how youact.
This message that he sent waslike so leaderful, but, but for
him, it's just, no, this is justwhat you do.
Right.
And so you overlook it.
And so I think another thingthere, Kay is, is, is taking
(35:38):
accountability for it.
Not like, Hey, I'm good at this.
Right.
but taking accountability.
How do I deepen my expression ofit?
How do I become more reliablefor it?
How do I et cetera, et cetera.
You know I think that's anotherpart of it.
Kay Pinky (35:50):
Yeah.
It's interesting.
Like, you know, that, that stuffthat's taken for granted, people
are, people are willing to paymoney for, you know, to, to be
taught that.
So yeah, it's, it's, so it's notlike, yeah.
Take accountability in the senseof, like, go brag that you know
how to do this thing, but, likejust being aware of it, you
could be a lot of, you could bea lot of help to a lot of
people.
You could lead by example andshape a whole community for
good.
Sam (36:10):
Yeah.
It's really funny, because Iactually did teach a lot of
Lessons on belonging and likehow to create senses of
belonging as a queer person.
So it's really funny So I waslike I used to I did a lot of
research on it Yeah, and a lotof it related to retention like
has so a lot of my research isactually on belonging My entire
thing is about identityretention on belonging And so
something I found reallyinteresting is kind of similar
(36:30):
to what y'all speaking about isthere was research done on it
And there's four primarycharacteristics of belonging in
places Where do people look likeme?
Where am I valued and cared for?
Where is my racial identity andculture recognized and valued?
And where do I share theinterests and values with
others?
So, through the lens ofbelonging, the idea of micro
settings, basically that face toface immediate interaction, is
(36:51):
where a person exists.
So where you exist in youridentity matters a lot, and yet
very little because it's just anassertion that you exist.
It's just a little flavorfuladdition for yourself.
So a lot of the times when wetalked about belonging, it was
kind of like, okay, you'reoftentimes just looking at this
one lens of yourself andbelonging isn't necessarily
something you can learn and youdo it every time.
(37:12):
And so something that we talkedabout, especially when it came
to leadership, is understandingthere's this zone of interest or
zone of intrigue for individualswhere, If you make a certain
level of belonging for eachindividual, because they all
exist on a spectrum, that's whenthey'll be most engaged and most
wanting to learn and contributeback to your community.
So the more you make a placefeel like it belongs to a
person, the more they want tohelp the community, the more
(37:32):
that helps someone else belong.
And so by simply engaging withone or two individuals, trying
to make them feel like, I matterhere, I'm valued, I can share my
culture and values here, even ifwe may not align, is an
important aspect of belonging.
But it's also important that youcontinuously do this process.
And so when we taught that, itwas like, this is not going to
be your end all be all, but thiswas oftentimes people who never
(37:52):
even understood this.
They came from places ofadministration where it was like
all about numbers and data andwhile that was important, a lot
of your data would have improvedhad you just taken a step back
into the communities and satwith them.
So it's really funny that you'llboth say that is.
I think that it is taught, butit's not taught in the kind of
traditional way where it's likeit's a one, two, three step.
It's, it's, it never will be,but it's important that you ask
(38:14):
the questions of what doesbelonging mean for this
community?
How do they define it?
And how do I engage with it insuch a way that I'm not the
person creating the belonging.
I'm simply a person engaged inthe space, helping that
community build and get thetools they need to build their
sense of belonging forthemselves.
A.M. (38:31):
Yep.
Yep.
Let's just see if this fits foryou, Sam.
In the in the Masters inLeadership program, one of the
things Mel and I would kind of,you know, one of the, whatever,
two dozen kind of anchorprinciples we never kept a list
but, but, but really kind of aclarity for us was that
leadership fundamentally cannotbe taught, but it can be
learned, right?
And so it's about creating aspace within which individuals
(38:53):
can learn their expression ofleadership, but I can't teach it
to you as a thing, right?
Does that fit for you aroundbelonging?
Sam (38:59):
Yeah, I definitely think that there's different forms of
leaders.
There's servant leadership,civil leadership, servitude.
There's the typical idealleadership and there is bad
leadership.
That's the thing too.
But it's also to understand,like I did a lot of courses on,
on student leadership.
It's one of my favorite thingsthat I liked researching.
And we would read all of thesemethods, all of these things,
like why it didn't understand.
And one of the things I reallyliked is we created this
(39:19):
Covenant of Accountability.
We all came up, a professor hadus all write it in, what we
agreed to, and at the end we allsigned it.
We all agreed to this thing.
And so when something washappening that we didn't feel
like we were supported, we couldcome back to it, reassess, and
we could just create it as aliving document and re
understand it.
And that was something for methat really mattered as a leader
because I was student councilpresident, I was president of my
(39:39):
club, and I was always stressedthat I wasn't enough, that I
was, you know, you're this,you're the representation of
queer and you speak for allthese people and yet you do not
ever want to say the wrongthings.
So I was very transparent ineverything I did.
I said, Hey, we're going tospeak to administration.
Here's what I propose movingforward.
What are your thoughts on it?
When we chose the logo, when wechose the name, I proposed
everything forward.
I was like, I am open toeverything you'll have to say
within these boundaries, butthis is what I was open to.
(40:01):
And A lot of it, I think, mademe a better leader because at
the time I really, I don't thinkI was very good.
I was very much like,productivity based, where it's
like, Okay, I asked you to getthis thing, why didn't you get
it done?
And I'll never forget, Iremember the moment it changed
for me was, I was sitting at thetable one day, all my executives
came in and I was like, Nothinggot done that day, and I was
like, so what happened?
And they all looked with fear,and I was like, I'm asking you,
(40:22):
what happened?
And like, they were sittingthere nervous, and I'm like,
With you as people.
Are you stressed?
Did something happen?
Do we need to go on a break?
What are we feeling?
Have the honest conversationwith me.
I'm not angry.
I'm concerned because you alllook distressed.
You all look frustrated.
I hear that.
I see that.
And I want to hear that in thisway so I can make the proper
judgment.
(40:43):
So that entire thing, thatentire meeting was just them
venting about what was going on,what was happening.
I listened to everything.
I said, all right, proposingmoving forward.
How about we just take thebreak?
Take a whole week off.
You all do what you need to do.
They all agreed to it.
And I went to my club and Isaid, I know this event is
important to you, but I'mcanceling it for the health of
my executives.
This is a conversation and thisis a decision I'm making and I'm
more than willing to takeaccountability for that thing.
(41:04):
And that was something thatreally mattered to them.
And a lot of these executiveswent on to be executives for
other clubs, you know, speak atgraduations, and I realized,
like, those moments where Irealized I didn't know
everything.
To me, not having an event was apanic time for me.
But I realized, like, my needswere not important.
What mattered to me was to makesure that these people wanted to
come back and work with me andfelt like their voices mattered
(41:25):
and what they were doingmattered and their ideas
mattered.
Like, I never moved forwardwithout them proposing ideas and
without students submittingideas or having the capacity to
do so, even if it was just like,no one ever submitted ideas,
because no one ever did.
Or if they did bring it up to meand said, okay, I'm gonna look
at it.
Realistically, I'll see what Ican do and get back and be as
transparent as possible withyou.
This is my ideas or i'm willingto take you into a space and
have a conversation with me.
(41:46):
The problem with that is you getburnout.
Unless you're getting thesupport from everyone around you
unless you have multiplepractitioners of leadership
There's burnout and I agree withwhat you're saying.
Like you can't teach leadershipand You definitely can help
bring people into the space ofthe type of leadership that's
good for them But if you'resurrounded by a lot of toxic
leadership, it's just You Itreally changes who you are as a
(42:07):
person, and I'm really gratefulI was surrounded by individuals
who are willing to be mychallenge network.
A.M. (42:11):
Yeah, I use leadership in a very specific way, and so the,
the things you're pointing to, Ithink with toxic leadership,
we'd have a different word forit, but in principle, we're
together.
When you first started talking,though, I just, Smiling because
I, I thought, my God, you wouldhave loved the MAOL.
But really the thought is theMAOL really would have loved
you.
Mel would have loved you, Sam.
The covenantial was another sortof distinction for us, a
(42:31):
contractual and covenantial thatwith human relationships, there
are contractual elements likeyou all here, DAE, there, there
are contractual elements.
There's like a a set of contractelements you have in the context
of your job.
That you owe me certain things,outputs and hours and etc.
And then I, we owe you a certainnumber of dollars and a certain
number of days off, right?
So there are contractualelements.
(42:52):
But where the juice is, wherethe thing lives is the
covenantal relationship we have.
Which is all the kind of thingswe talk about here where there
is no getting it right or wrong.
There is a agreement to movetowards a certain horizon that
we can never get to, but we keepmoving further and further
towards it.
And we drift, we correct eachother, help each other to move,
you know.
And, and that's missing fromschool, that's missing from
(43:14):
workplace, that's missing fromsociety, is all contractual
elements.
Again, back to zone of interest,right?
It is all, it is a, it is aburying of the covenantal
relationships that we as humanbeings have with each other.
And it's focusing solely on thecontractual elements.
Here's what I'm getting done.
I'm getting it done well.
I'm getting it done efficiently,and I get these rewards for it.
Right?
And there is no covenant there.
(43:34):
There is no human relationship.
And nature, I think, is allcovenantial, and there's no
contractual.
Human beings need a certainamount of contractual to live in
a society.
But it's all covenant.
It's all a certain horizon we'removing towards together.
That isn't about gettinganywhere, but it's about moving.
That's another one that, youknow, I belong, I'm okay, et
cetera.
Another, possibly the biggestone in this society is helping
(43:55):
people let go of the notion thatthings can be done, that the
things that matter to them canbe done, that they can be done.
That's the most important one,that there is a doneness, that I
can get somewhere that has tobe, I'm done now.
I'm finished.
I made it.
Whether that's affirmation, ormoney, or safety, or there's no
done.
That's another one if you canhelp people loosen their grip on
(44:15):
there's a very kind of Westernnotion.
I find, you know, loosens thingsup.
Sam (44:19):
You know what, this really reminds me of Kay, you remember
when we did the design with oursix week students?
And one of the activities we didwas like a two truths and a
wish.
And so we had the students sharetwo truths and something that
they wished for their future.
And we talked about how you canidentify that by just listening,
watching the body, how theycommunicate.
And these students were able toidentify wishes, but we also
learned about each other in thisprocess.
(44:40):
And so as we were building outthis design process, we asked
them, you know, like, you know,Interview each other, you know,
what are the conversationsyou're having?
What is the wish that you havefor each other?
What are the things you like ordislike?
What are the things you wouldchange?
And it was really interesting tokind of have this like talk back
of like, what do you think?
What are your thoughts?
And for them to be like, oh, Ilike this thing and it matters
because of this or oh I didn'tunderstand this because of this
(45:01):
but now this makes me want to dothis right now I'm interested in
exploring this because of thisand just the energy and the joy
that was brought forward fromjust Creating the sense of,
like, what you do matters, andyou belong here, and what you're
doing, the work you do, and whoyou are.
That your core work is, belongshere, and it really brings me
back to this idea of, I learnedin research, because I never saw
(45:21):
myself as a researcher.
Well, research is me search.
You are inherently a part of thething you choose to study or do.
And I definitely feel likethat's something I see a lot
with the six week students,which is why, like, every time I
see them, I get this, like, Purejoy, because I know what they're
doing is so deeply ingrained inwho they are and what they're
designing for.
Maybe something that started asa self made project, but it's
expanding to include so manymore communities that are
(45:44):
involved and they're re engagingwith like, the high school
students in the year long.
And it's just, it's just reallygreat to see them just like,
even if it's online, they'relike, Hey Sam, you're here.
Like every student, whenever I'monline grabbing the computer to
say hello or tell me about theirday is like those beautiful
things that I just, I loveabout.
This community and how it makespeople belong
A.M. (46:02):
The last sentence feels like a like a like a like a good
cap it really does like thatsentiment, If you all are good
with it we're going to treatthat as as the cap Yeah, but but
but I have some some someadministrative business for for
the for the dozens of listenersso we've been playing with this
close to a year now, and Iwanted to sort of play with it
for a while to sort ofunderstand, you know, what, what
makes sense.
(46:22):
There's two things I'm, I'minterested in feedback.
I mean, in general, if you getfeedback, you know, a couple of
you informally have provided it,but I'm, I'm actively more
looking for feedback.
But two things specific, I'mthinking of of a live, episode
to allow folks to sort ofengage, and, and would you be up
for that?
And the second is now that wemore than have our legs under
us, I want to start bringing inother people.
(46:44):
There are people, you know,nationally that I know that
really are cool and interestingand are part of our conversation
without being part of our, youknow we have a covenantal
relationship with, let me saythat there are people with whom
I have covenantal relationshipsin, in, in the sorts of
inquiries that we do here.
There I want to start bringingin, but, but I would love
feedback on, on either topics orareas or, or, or types of folks.
(47:06):
So that's it.
So I'm looking for feedback, amat absurd wisdom.
com.
You can, you can ping medirectly.
I'm looking for feedback on aswe close out sort of season one
here soon.
Where would you like to see thisthing go?
Because it is going to go.
For a while at least.
That's as committed as I get.
For a while at least.
Scott (47:23):
Moving towards the horizon.
A.M. (47:24):
Yeah, that's it.
Well, this is it.
I don't, you know, there'snowhere we're trying to get to.
There's certainly nowhere I'mtrying to get to.
So, that's it.
That's the request.
Thank you all for listening.
And go see Zone of Interest.
Go see it when you have, like Isaid, some time afterwards to
process it.
Kay Pinky (47:36):
I'm going to watch it.
A.M. (47:37):
Okay.
Kyley (47:38):
I'm, I'm really intrigued by your response.
Kay Pinky (47:40):
I'm gonna watch it.
Like I, Scott, Scott sold it forme.
I'm gonna watch it.
I did, yeah.
How did he sell it?
I don't know.
I was just interested.
I just really want to find outthese things y'all talking about
for myself.
Sam (47:50):
Okay.
Kay Pinky (47:50):
Not, yeah, I just really want to find it.
I find out This is good.
It was a good listen for me.
Sam (47:54):
Well, it's also based off a book, I think, the movie, too.
Kay Pinky (47:57):
Yeah, Luce he took a lot of
A.M. (47:58):
liberties with it, but yeah.
just had a moment of thinking around this idea that
you have and it probably doesn'talign because I didn't watch the
movie.
I wasn't in the mood.
Don't have the mindset to watchthe movie yet.
But this idea that you justbroke out a plastic container
with snacks, each individuallywrapped in plastic, and everyone
is excited, and I don't know howoften we actually, like, think
(02:07):
about that.
And it used to drive me insaneas a 20 year old being like, how
do you all live like this?
And I've just had to kind oflike, suffocate that part of
myself so I can exist inside ofthe society of not living in the
woods.
And.
Hunting your own squirrels andmaking your own loincloths out
of squirrel parts.
A.M. (02:24):
Yeah.
So this, this is exactly wheremy head went in watching that
film.
I mean, that's not where my headwent in watching the film.
When watching the film, my headwent to the film because it's,
it's, it's an immersiveexperience.
And we're, we're talking aboutfolks.
Hey, welcome folks.
That's
Kay Pinky (02:37):
an intro.
A.M. (02:37):
for this week.
For the crew was I, I finallygot around to watching Zone of
Interest, which I would verymuch recommend and recommend you
watch it when you have severalhours free afterwards to kind of
sit and, and, and ponder how youmake decisions and, and what the
legacy of those decisions willbe and, and how output and
efficiency may not be the bestmetric.
And, and so as I was kind ofsaying, I literally, like, you
(03:00):
know, I watch a lot of films.
I love cinema.
It's a real, like I finishedthis thing and I thought, it's
like, okay, this is one of the10, like best films I've ever
seen, I think.
Okay.
But I got to process it best inthe sense of not good or it's
good, but in terms of just, likefor me, art, whether it's a
theater or dance or piece ofmusic, It succeeds when it
(03:21):
leaves me with fundamentally newand high propagation inquiries.
Yeah, right.
Like it leaves me like I'mentertained.
Cool.
I'm appreciate the technicalaspects.
Cool.
But ultimately what it invitesme to do is to instantly forget
it and take the questions fromit or the inquiry from it or the
awareness from it and begin tolook around.
(03:43):
Right.
And, and so this, this, what youjust said about, about these,
you know, I brought in some,some Korean sweet rice cakes for
the crew cause I was picking upKimbap for, for our students for
today.
We have a presentation day.
And, and so this, this is thecontext.
I see you saying, you look atthese things, it's plastic
wrapped in plastic, wrapped inplastic.
I'm sitting here drinking coffeefrom a paper cup with a plastic
lid.
(04:03):
That's got a paper sleeve on itthat has all of, you know, 15
minutes of use and then gone
Kyley (04:09):
into a trash can where it doesn't actually get reused.
Just go into a big old dump ofstuff.
Yeah.
A.M. (04:13):
Yeah.
And, and, and so this issue ofsort of, you know how do you not
get burdened by just everysecond freaking out about the
plastic on plastic version of,of how we live in our lives.
But pay attention and reallymake decisions not on what's
like, really cool and reallyefficient and really like
amazing outcomes.
(04:33):
The genius of this film is just,just how sort of just banal and,
logical and good managementdiscipline that the dude running
Auschwitz is bringing to hisjob.
No, you know, ill intent, no, Imean, obviously you'll, it'll
massively impact.
But the focus is on theefficiency, and the
(04:53):
productivity, and theexcitement, and the, and the,
and the, my name is gonna be on,you know, in essence, there's a
point there where it's like, youachieved 300 percent
productivity increase, and we'regonna name the thing after you.
And he's proud.
But not in a sort of like, it'snot proud in the sense of I
watched the film, so let me getback to it, and so, like, we're
developing tech folks who arebuilding shit, That has all
(05:15):
kinds of potential impacts.
And, you know, since day one,since day zero, we've had the
conversation of, you know,humane technologists,
technologists who are kind ofaware of what they're doing.
And And that, that damn thingjust had me question, like, are
we doing, you know, 1 percent ofwhat we could be doing in terms
of really raising awarenesswithout wagging fingers and
inviting kids to freak out.
Scott (05:35):
Well, in the sense of the film, I did watch it in
preparation for this and
A.M. (05:39):
don't give away spoilers.
Scott (05:40):
No, just a few, few observations I was telling Kyley
earlier.
Like the sound design is amazingand horrific.
A.M. (05:48):
Yep.
Scott (05:49):
And to the point where it started, it was very kind of,
you know, lush atmosphere.
Atmospheric sound design beforeit got.
heavier and darker.
I thought to myself, Oh, I'mgoing to put my AirPods on and
listen to this and spatial.
And then I decided against it.
And then luckily I didn't, causeI probably wouldn't have slept
since then.
If that was the case because ofthe incidental noises and sounds
(06:11):
and stuff.
So it was a very, very, veryhard to sit with.
And I think I, you know, I alsomentioned I don't remember ever
being, engaged in a film likethat where I couldn't wait for
it to end.
I was like, how long is this?
I kept checking like how muchleft, you know, but I wanted to
watch the whole thing to beready for this.
And, you know, and also see whatthe hype was about you know,
(06:32):
awards and stuff.
And it was like, and then I wentto sleep and I was like, kind of
just laying there and like, youknow, staring, staring at a, you
know, little light in the cornerjust kind of like, Oh man,
Imagine if that was like outsidemy window, like how can I be one
of those people that turns itoff?
A.M. (06:49):
Not to, diminish the unimaginable magnitude of what
that particular thing is, butqualitatively, Scott, it is, it
is, you know, you walk downchapel street and you see the
outsourced impact of our amazingeconomic efficiency.
Scott (07:05):
Another thing that brought up was in a recent
episode with Ben Hellervisiting, you talked about
something you observed on thestreet and then, you know,
everybody being in a whiteout.
And there's one point in thefilm where it just goes to
white.
It was that same kind of thing.
But the sound continued andyou're just like white screen.
And it immediately made me thinkof that conversation that you
(07:26):
had, like, You know how thehuman brain is capable of just
shutting down when there's toomuch input, too much sensory
input and, you know, almost asif it's non important detail as
opposed to the most, you know,excruciating image that you can
think of.
A.M. (07:46):
There's a lighter.
Much lighter version of, of thegeneral, I mean it's not about
Auschwitz, it's not about, youknow, the bridge on the River
Kwai, have you ever seen that?
Alec Guinness, he's a Britishsoldier prisoner of war.
And they're building thisbridge, and they're, because
they're, they're just now, inessence, you know, slave labor,
they're prisoners of war.
And forced to build this bridge.
And Al Guinness is the, is thecommander on the, on the British
(08:08):
side of, you know, of theprisoners.
And he, like, gets more and moreenthusiastic about doing the
thing right and gets into, like,a fish.
And he's, at the end, he's proudof the bridge, like, look at
what we did.
And he has this moment ofrealization, like, oh, wait a
minute.
What did I just enable?
Right?
Kay Pinky (08:23):
Now I wish I watched the movie.
Kyley (08:25):
I don't know if I want you to watch the movie, Kay.
A.M. (08:26):
It's not, I mean cinematically, it's, it's not,
it's not heavy in the, in theway you'd expect, right?
A film about Auschwitz It's notheavy.
You don't, there's no violence.
There's no, see nothing of thecamp.
Scott (08:37):
A lot of nature and tranquility.
A.M. (08:38):
A lot of nature.
It's, this is the impact of it.
The horror of it is, you know,life in suburbia.
Mm hmm.
As things are happening.
So you don't need to see thefilm, Kay, you just gotta pay
attention to society.
So, again, I want to get, to tryto get out of the film and just,
just, Like, we all, you know, tosome degree or another, thread
this needle, right?
Of, of the nature of folks whowork here, who are part of our
(08:59):
community, have an awareness ofimpact.
Adverse impact and, and But I'mstill sitting with, you know,
with the kids, how do we notburden them with yet another
heavy thing?
not Germany, Auschwitz, etc.
Not another heavy thing in termsof accountability for your
efficiency accountability forthe you know thing, you know
down the downstream impact.
What are you actually servingagain?
(09:20):
We have that conversation withthem.
We work with them.
But but I'm genuinely sittingwith for next year How do we
radically particularly those whoare the kind of bleeding edge
of, of, you know, I won't namenames on that podcast, but you
know the kind of kids I'mtalking about who are, who are
actually going to build thingsthat are the next day, humans,
the next day, humans, exactly.
Like they're going to build likestuff not in 10 years, but in 10
(09:41):
months that, that potentiallyhave commercial liability, et
cetera.
And how do we not impose on themawareness of these kind of So
it's a difficult time and Ithink we all face this as adults
and there's a lot of issues ofwhat are we serving?
But continuing to invite that inthem and have them have a place
to take deeper and deeperaccountability for it.
Because they're wired that way.
I think about the next day kids,at least, you know, two of them
I'm fairly certain have aclarity of But that clarity only
(10:04):
extends as far as they're ableto ask questions.
Right.
And how do we help them askbigger and bigger questions.
Scott (10:09):
It's difficult with kids because they're I think it's
important to note that a lot ofthe historical, Context that
they get from older adults,especially you know, family,
educators, other people in theircircle.
They have no concept of timebecause it's, you know, before
their lifetime and a large chunkof their lifetime.
(10:29):
Ago if it was something morerecent.
So the, you know.
Does it make more sense to pointto cause and effect of things
that are happening as theybecome young adults and what are
those examples Is it too much toadd to their plate, Already
dealing with enough, you knowstress and anxiety and other
societal pressures as theyfigure out what they want to be,
(10:52):
or how they want to approach theworld?
Sam (10:54):
taking all of that in, and kind of thinking about
everything and what this reallybrings to mind is, I wouldn't
argue that it's, you know, like,the most current historical
things that, you know, thesekids are only focused on, I
think it's that, it's a lot It'shard to care about multiple
things and so many things, butthat doesn't mean that we
shouldn't or that we can't.
I think there's kind of beenthinking about this ever since
(11:14):
Kyley brought up about theplastic thing.
And I talk about this a lot aslike this concept of slow
violence.
Which was coined by Rob Nixon,which was mostly built in
relation to environmentalism.
So, slow violence is thisgradual sort of violence that's
delayed.
And the destruction is dispersedacross time and space.
And it's not typically viewed asviolence at all.
You know, oftentimes when peoplethink of violence, they think of
(11:35):
just like physically hurtingsomeone, like an action you can
see, but they don't think of,you know, climate change, they
don't think of gun policies,they don't think of those
things, but we're not seeing,for example, like how this
affects different genders,different people, for example
because of pollution, we had alot of birth defects for
individuals that like basicallyharmed their lives, and that was
violent, it hurt them, it wasover time.
(11:56):
And so this concept kind ofunderstands we use this tool
called Ecomaps, a lot of thework that I do.
And a lot of Ecomaps canunderstand, like, where
individuals end up in lifebecause of the different things
around them.
So sometimes it's the morerecent things, some things that
they can see.
Sometimes it's the macro things,the people in their life, the
people they interact with, theplaces that they go, the places
they have access to.
But there are things that welook at that are more than that.
(12:17):
So we look at exosystems,mesosystems, we look at things,
for example, policies thathappened 20 years ago, and how
that could affect, for example,immigration, how that affected
your parents coming here, andhow that could affect you to
today, and looking at how thosethings affect you as people, and
could basically put people insituations where they are now
victims of slow violence and theproblem with slow violence is
there's no one person you canever point to and say like
(12:39):
you're the cause of this becauseit's so gradually dispersed.
It's so silent that we don't seeit coming And I think one of the
things that a lot of peopledon't realize is kind of what
you're speaking to Scott Isthere's this you know, like it's
not gonna affect me This isgoing to affect someone else or
maybe a little bit.
So I don't really have a hand onthis.
So this thing I'm making It'sjust a test or it's just you
know, it will just see where itgoes But we don't really think
(13:02):
of like the gradual thing overtime that can affect people And
when you take that step back andyou look at yourself like as an
individual that's affected bythe people around you the things
you've done the policies thewars all of those things that
make you who you are without youeven realizing is this
historical trauma that your bodyis keeping count of A lot
changes for how you view theworld And I think it's really
complex to bring that to a highschool mindset because there is
(13:23):
just so much going on.
They are victims of the slowviolence that's now compounding
from these teacher shortages andall of these things that are
happening.
And I think this all comes fromthis metric of like, we need to
have more money, we need to, youknow, we're a capitalist
society, and we're not reallyrealizing that, like, we need to
give the freedom for theseindividuals to explore these
concepts of who they are.
And I think it's funny.
(13:43):
I actually brought this up toKay earlier that I had said
something to him and I was like,Oh, you know, I'm like, it's a
joke and I'm sorry.
And Kay was like, no, no, it'sfine.
And I was like, I recognizethat.
But something that I realize isreally important is like,
regardless of our intention, wecan hurt others.
Right.
So we can honor our intention,but it's more important that we
recognize our impact.
And I don't think a lot ofpeople sit with that because
even the smallest things canhave a very large impact on
(14:05):
people.
A.M. (14:06):
So just as you, when you were speaking, Sam, you reminded
me of another aspect of thefilm.
It becomes obvious at one point,it's, it's sort of said in
passing in dialogue a couple oftimes, but it's made very clear
that, that these people comefrom quote unquote nothing,
economic nothing, right?
The, the core family here that,that's now, you know, the
husband's running Auschwitz Andthey're like, like, my God, we
(14:26):
made it.
Like they got, you know, a nicehouse and a garden adjacent to
Auschwitz, right?
And there's a palpable sense of,oh my God.
At one point the wife's mothercomes to visit and she's like,
Oh my God, look at this.
Amazing.
Who would have thought you wouldhave gotten here?
I think I've talked about mypast, you know, in like, you
know, extreme poverty and comingout of it in India.
And I've always been like reallyuncomfortable being able to buy
(14:49):
shit.
Laughter.
Like I, I, I alwaysintentionally live really,
really, really below my means,not out of any sense of
nobility, not out of any senseof, but literally I am just
uncomfortable.
It just feels like, like weird,you know.
the normalization is, And so forour kids, they think about like,
of course they want to make it,right?
(15:09):
I mean, you know, so they'revictims of slow violence,
they're victims of economicdeprivation, they're, you know,
these things.
And of course the narrative isyou got to make it.
And we want them to make it inthe sense of, you know, having a
comfortable life and being ableto take care of themselves and,
and people they love.
And in the context of that,again, I go, I don't have an
answer.
I just keep asking the question,mainly of myself, right?
In the context of that, like,how do you, you know, how do you
(15:30):
encourage?
Yeah, make it.
But, but, but I don't want,here's the thing that's kept me
up since I watched this.
Well, that kept me up, but itkind of kept me up, preoccupied
me.
Like, I, you know, there's alarge tech firm that I worked
with early on, right?
And I'm like, some of the folksI work with, you know, say like,
you know, massive contribution.
We wouldn't have gotten some,but, but I'm, I'm, I have no
delusion.
Like I'm a footnote of afootnote of a footnote of a
(15:50):
footnote of a footnote on theimpact I had and what that
company became.
And even that microscopic impactI to this day have like such
weight around because I got paidwell for those years.
I was with them as an advisor.
I got paid really well and Ithought we were doing good work
and it was cool and it wasexciting.
And I look back now and I'mlike, What, what, you know,
(16:11):
again, one, one millionth of 1percent contribution to that
thing is still a contribution tothat thing.
And, and so I don't want tolook, so that's not what, what,
what preoccupies me.
I don't want to look back in 20years and say, here's a DAE kid
and like high fives all around.
This thing's been around 25years now, and we're really
successful in 15, 000 kids wentthrough.
(16:31):
And I don't want to look back.
And the next Elon came out ofDAE.
Or the next, you know, fill inthe blank.
And, and, and to a certainextent, that's unavoidable.
It's, you know, we're notaccountable for people's, right?
But, but, but the question is, Iknow we're not doing enough.
What is there more to do toinvite awareness, not impose it,
not burden it, but invite moreand more and more awareness as
(16:52):
we get to the next phase of thisthing?
We have some baby Elon's.
That come through here.
And, and how do we help them be,kind of, settled in themselves
more and more and more so thatas they become, you know, hot
shit they move with a differentawareness.
Sam (17:05):
You have to take your product out into the world for
the people you serve.
I often say this as like aperson who became an LGBT
advocate is, I'm not an LGBTadvocate, I'm an ally, and I
constantly earn thatterminology.
If the community I'm looking toserve doesn't see me as an ally,
I'm not doing my job right.
Even if I identify within thatcommunity, even if I think I
know everything, I don't.
Because every community isdifferent.
(17:25):
And I think that's an importantaspect of building anything is,
is understanding like, okay,cool.
You built this project.
You think it's going to work?
You think you understand it,take it on the community, have a
genuine conversation, have themtry it out.
Even if it's just the peoplearound you, talk to your
classmates about it, talk toyour parents about it, talk to
people that you're not even surewould even use this thing and
see how accessible it is.
Like, see, see what thoughtscome up and genuinely listen to
(17:46):
those thoughts and concerns,because oftentimes I feel like
that's what leads to successeswhere oftentimes.
And I always talk about this asmoving into this ivory tower,
where once you think you knoweverything, you kind of get
blinded by this idea of your ownknowledge.
You think that you are theexpert in this thing, and you
quite probably are, but you arenot the expert on every
community, and communities aredynamic.
People are dynamic.
(18:07):
People are fluid and everchanging, and the things we
develop need to, like, they needto be holistic.
But they also need to reflectthat dynamic change that we as
individuals have, and that is aconstant challenge that you can
always build into tech.
And I think that's veryprobable, but I think it's, tech
doesn't move at the same likepace that people do.
And so it can be very difficultto match that energy.
A.M. (18:28):
mean, Expertise is actually in the way of
understanding those communities,right?
Because the more you know andthe more certain you are in your
knowledge the less listening youhave.
I was teaching a class lastnight, and we're focused on on
sort of early stages of designthinking and spent the entire
three hours really, you knowFocusing in on kind of empathy
and subjectivity versusobjectivity and expertise And
(18:49):
and the challenge for apractitioner to actually, you
know be subjective but rigorousto be empathetic but rigorous
It's easy to be I mean, it's alot of work, but it's easy to be
objective and rigorous Becauseyou don't have to get involved
and you don't have to payattention to yourself to a
certain degree, right?
And so one of the things inwhich you're saying, Sam, like,
you know, as a tactic, like, we,we sort of blow by empathy
(19:10):
mapping.
Like, we give it space, but weblow by it in the sense of,
right, and, and, and as a, justa, to go from 100, 000 feet down
to 5 feet, you know, a tacticalthing to consider is how does
that become more of a livingprocess?
How can we get our students intocommunities?
How can we get community intohere?
More because, you know, theorientation, the people who fund
(19:31):
us and they're all great.
It's not, nobody's doinganything wrong, but the
orientation is, If we said tothem, you know, we want to
bring, you know users of thiskid's works in, they'd be like,
cool, which corporations wouldyou like us to introduce you to?
And that's obviously not whatwe're talking about.
We want them to go and influencethe corporations in positive
ways.
So, so maybe somewhere in thatearly part of their experience
here, we do need to find ways toget them more directly in touch
(19:53):
with their own community, butfrom the perspective of a
designer of a builder of acoder.
Sam (19:58):
I think that just involves a reflexive process.
Understanding theirpositionality and things.
I mean, I'm doing researchcurrently.
Okay, I taught you these terms,so I know you know what I'm
talking about.
But positionality is kind of,when you're looking at research,
it's understanding where youcome from.
Why you're studying the thingsyou're studying.
And reflexivity is an ongoingprocess of doing that.
And I think, Even in my work,right, I'm not sitting and
(20:18):
working with my community everysingle day because I don't have
access to it.
But the other day, literallyyesterday, I did an ethnographic
observation.
So I just sat in the DAEcommunity and I tried to
understand what this space is.
And it was so funny because Iimmediately went to Kay and I
was like, I want to make myentire case about you, just
specifically you, because I havenever taken in all of the
nuances that you have as aneducator that you do to make
(20:39):
people warm.
Like Kay made so much eyecontact And I was like, I am
supposed to be just an observer,but he still tried to bring me
into the space without verballydoing so.
And I just, I noticed everythingthat he was doing was this
active engagement process.
And that taught me a lot aboutthe space and what we do as
educators by just sitting andobserving and writing with all
of my senses, being in thespace, like taking it all in.
(21:00):
And I had never just slowed downhere to realize like, wow, I
feel okay.
This feels okay, and I never,like, realized that, like, Kay
does so much to, like, when youcome in, you feel warm, and
safe, and willing to try newthings without ever saying a
word to you.
And I think that's beneficialfor students.
Maybe they don't have to sitwith, like, big corporations,
(21:22):
but maybe they can just sit fora moment in a park in their
school with their friends.
See, smell, hear, look.
Observe, read, write, paint, allof those things and really take
in all of those senses andrealize like, what does this
mean for what I'm making, whatdoes this tell me, and how am I
making this safe for others?
A.M. (21:39):
So Sam, this is so, you're connecting a dot for me that
somehow I did just let, let,just kind of slide, right?
When the state people were inthis past week for their, for
their annual audit and in thekind of final debrief, one of
the things I was, you know, ifyou were going to send to them
is like, you know, We don'tapproach students
psychologically andsociologically.
We're not starting with anassessment, a diagnostic.
(22:00):
We're in essence starting withan ethnography of that
individual student.
And, and just hearing whatyou're saying, like that, that
may be a, a, you know, certainlya tactical thing to do, but a
more, you know, philosophicalthing is, is.
Can we get more rigorous in the,you know, sort of an
ethnographic approach to eachstudent, but then in that
process, invite them and givethem tools and give them some,
(22:23):
some outputs to, to worktowards.
That is, you know, okay, take,take an ethnographic approach to
the world you're living in andhave that, you know, that, that
felt lived experience informyour initial sets of project
designs.
That just, you know, In my bodyfeels like a good direction to
start moving in more formally.
I know we do it informally, butI think, I think that would feel
(22:43):
really good to me.
Because the body doesn't lie.
Like I talk about this a lot inthe grad school, you know, the
body listens in a way that, thatthe mind, you know and it shows
up in the film.
Like near the end, I don't wantto give this away, right?
But if you listen this way, youknow There are things that will
short circuit your kind ofrational linear efficiency mind
and, and open up perspectives.
Kyley (23:04):
I'm going to ask a question that came to my mind
and it's getting a little AtlasShrugged for me.
So I want to be careful andrecognize this isn't necessarily
what I believed, but it's agenuine question that I have.
And I guess from personalexperience, right?
Growing up with the family thatI grew up with, I had a bunch of
wild ideas, and if I use them asa sounding board or as the
community that I was like, like,like watching, being aware of
perceiving and went down thepath that they thought was
(23:27):
beneficial, I would probably becausing harm for folk, right?
How, like, How do you get macrobeyond that and supporting
something larger than this oneindividualized community?
One individualized perspective?
And the way you're approachingsolutions.
Sam (23:42):
Look at your privilege.
Like look at what you have asopposed to what others have
engaged with other communities,be willing to step into those
spaces and kind of take areflective look at yourself.
Ethnographic observations arealso about self reflection.
So I would say probably reflecton yourself and engage with
others that are radicallyoutside of your view.
And kind of do a comparativeanalysis and see how that makes
(24:04):
you feel and why that makes youfeel that way like what brings
that up for you like where doesthat come from and Taking a step
back and Sitting with that andthen moving towards a direction
that maybe you can't get rid ofall the plastic on plastic, but
what maybe what you can do tostart bringing more
environmentally friendly spaceshere, like looking at how we
recycle, talking about thoseconversations, just bringing
that knowledge is more importantthan like, it's better that you
(24:26):
said something for us to atleast have that in the space.
And I've never said it at all.
Kyley (24:30):
Yeah.
I don't know if I can frame thisthe way that it comes into my
brain, but even like that, like,if I start talking about
recycling, in a lot of placesrecycling doesn't work.
And so, like, I'm not actually,like, I don't know how you have
enough information in somecapacity to be able to make,
like, you can make the choicesin the moment based on what you
have, and you keep getting moreinformation based on what you
have.
But I guess it's the awarenesspiece.
(24:51):
I guess I'm processing my own,like, internal dialogue right
now with how I approach life,but it's just a continual
question, like, I don't, andit's my own, like, I don't know
how to continue to exacerbatethings, because that's, even
when I solve stuff, it goes intoexacerbation, and so it's more
of a process of solving, and Iwonder how,
Sam (25:09):
I would say that's your problem.
You're trying to solve thingsrather than question things.
Like, you're looking, you're,you're never going to be able to
solve anything because if, areal practitioner would never
ever try to solve anythingbecause that's a band aid for a
larger thing.
If you think your product isgoing to solve everything,
You're dead wrong.
I hate to say it, but you'rewrong.
What you need to be is a personthat questions everything and
engages with the communitiesbecause communities know what
(25:31):
they need.
So if you're looking to developsomething, maybe recycling
doesn't work in that community,but maybe there's something akin
to it that's environmentallyfriendly that does.
And having conversations withthe community is like, instead
of like, Hey, fix this thingwith a straightforward answer.
Like, this is what we'rethinking.
Just like, how do you think thisthing started?
Why do you think this thing ishappening?
What are the blockers for you?
Kyley (25:50):
Yeah, that question is like, does the community know
what they need?
Sam (25:52):
Yes.
Kyley (25:53):
Okay.
Sam (25:54):
I would say they do.
A.M. (25:55):
Collectively.
Yeah.
No one individual may know, butin the interaction of the
community.
Yeah.
Sam (25:59):
And that's where, like, ethnographic interviews come to
play, where you start building,kind of like you have these
large open ended questions, andthen as you have a conversation,
you start to identify convergingthemes.
And identify what those themesare and create like identify
markers that built or something,
A.M. (26:13):
you know, much more about natural ecosystems than I do.
But I think this is how itoccurs in natural ecosystems
where over long time horizons,the ecosystem conspires in a
certain way to make room for acertain kind of fungus because
we need more nitrogen or what?
Yeah, again, I don't know thisway out of my, you know but that
collectively, you know, no, no,no tree or blade of grass made
(26:34):
the decision.
But collectively, there's anintelligence that This is what's
needed to balance the system.
Kyley (26:39):
But the difference between that and what we're
speaking to is like naturedoesn't ask.
A.M. (26:44):
Right.
Kyley (26:44):
And we're asking and interpreting and doing whatever
nature is.
Yeah.
And then that's, that's where Iget kind of caught up.
A.M. (26:50):
I would gently push back on nature doesn't ask.
Okay.
Cause there's a constantconversation going on.
it's had in chemicals andminerals and proteins and
enzymes.
And so your body asks foroxygen.
Your liver asks for oxygen in acertain way, right?
Through sending certain, like ifyou're under threat or if you're
running, the adrenaline andthese things are released in
(27:14):
response to a request from thesystem because it needs more
oxygen.
It needs oxygen processed morequickly.
Kyley (27:20):
And
A.M. (27:21):
so these things are being released as a response to a kind
of request, which is a systemtrying to seek balance, and the
balance it's trying to seek isproper oxygenation of all the,
you know, organs of the body.
Sam (27:31):
I feel like communication happens in more ways than just
like verbal or written, and Ifeel like nature, it may not
ask, but it does communicate.
Kyley (27:39):
Oh, for sure, it definitely communicates.
I'm just like,
Sam (27:42):
And that's what you look out for.
Kyley (27:44):
Even scalerly, right?
An overpopulated deer populationdoesn't necessarily, Hey, please
murder a few of us so thatthere's less of us so that we
don't overeat all the things.
Like, deer just die.
Right?
Like, it's a different kind ofconversation.
A.M. (27:57):
Yeah, so, okay, so let me get what I think you're pointing
to, but a different way, and theway that I've and I don't know
if this is right, but what I'vealways been working on Is not
like, I don't know how to get toall the solutions or all the
right.
I don't know.
And so what I've worked out overthe years is a handful of
precursors to humans that aren'tgoing to fuck shit up.
(28:20):
And maybe they'll actually dosomething productive, but I
mean, right.
And here are the handful ofprecursors.
And so the design of this place,they feel like they belong.
Humans who don't feel like theybelong are reliable for creating
bad stuff.
Humans who understand enough.
Humans who fundamentallyunderstand what enough is for
them.
Humans who are comfortable intheir own skin.
Who have a sense of, I'm okay.
(28:41):
Not I'm perfect, not I'm smart,but I'm okay as I am, right?
There's a few others, butthere's a handful of precursors
that like, you can help a humanbeing find these places for
themselves.
I belong.
I'm okay.
I'm okay.
I understand what my thresholdof enough is, et cetera.
Nature, the tree doesn't need tobe taught those things.
Kyley (28:59):
Mm-Hmm.
A.M. (29:00):
the tree understands enough.
It's never gonna hoard morewater than you know, or more of
a certain type of mineral.
It under quote unquoteunderstands it belongs in the
ecosystem of things it, right.
And so, yeah, there isn't thekind of asking that, that, that
humans do.
But I think we, you know, a lotof.
I'm spec again.
I'm not a researcher and I don'tknow, but anecdotal evidence
(29:21):
over 30 years that human beingsthat can be, you know, can be
helped to level set around someof these foundational things.
These come from internally aremuch more reliable for not,
reaching for the 2nd and 3rd and4th house.
Kyley (29:36):
Yeah,
A.M. (29:36):
much more responsible for at least having an awareness of
yeah.
the outsourced economic impactof their ambition, et cetera, et
cetera.
Because they're not trying tofill all these things to me are
ways to fill foundational thingsin dysfunctional ways.
The second, third, fourth houseis in some way trying to fill.
I don't have a relationship withenough or I don't have a
(29:57):
relationship with belonging or Idon't have a relationship with
I'm okay.
If I'm okay, and I'm enough, andI have a place where I belong,
where I feel genuine I belong, Idon't need these things.
I may very well enjoy thesethings, absolutely.
lions don't kill zebras.
In fact, we'll lay right next tothem when they're full.
They don't just consume the nextzebra because it's there.
(30:17):
And after they're full.
Because they, they, you know,understand enough, not
understand like, you know,intellectually the way we do.
Scott (30:24):
You mentioned awareness.
I think that's the, that's thekey.
Cultivating that awareness andmaintaining it and realizing it
when it goes away.
Like, oh, I was unaware of thisaspect of the group or the
situation.
So talking about when you weretalking about Kay, that's what I
see, like when you're talkingwith the students, you know, if
you're talking to students andthere's like a third that's not
(30:44):
engaged right there, you'relike, Hey, what about you?
Like, and get them into theconversation that sort of
creates that awareness for them.
Like, Oh, I'm part of this.
I'm, you know, I'm not, I'm notexternal.
And I wondered yesterday whatyou were doing, like off in the
corner, like taking notes andstuff.
But now I get it.
Cause I see like.
You just watching the organismkind of work as a whole unit and
you know, I do that using, youknow, video and audio to try to
(31:07):
do, try to capture some of thatstuff to you know, throughout
the semesters.
A.M. (31:11):
And back to, you know, very first episode of this
thing, we're born into aneconomy and not a culture, you
know, cultures provide thesethings.
Like if you're born into anintact culture.
Longstanding culture.
There are, you know, mythologiesand stories and ways of being
that are tied to enough, thatare very much tied to belonging.
They're very much tied to yourplace in the scheme of things.
(31:33):
And, and you can't, and I have,you know, I have my friends, you
know, well intentioned, wellmeaning, genuinely, you know,
long term acquaintances but whoare like, Oh yeah, I belong.
Absolutely.
We need that in the world.
I'm working on a, on a six monthworkshop on belonging.
No, you don't.
Oh, being comfortable in yourown skin.
I'm working on a, on a, no, it'sthe environment that you're in.
It's a way to design the space.
(31:54):
But as soon as you abstract itand make it into a thing to do,
you've already lost it.
It's in the space.
And so you could build a bakerythat reinforces belonging.
You can have a school thatreinforces I'm okay.
You can have a, you know, a cardealership that invites a
relationship to enough based onthe design of it.
It is not, as soon as youabstract it, you've lost
Kay Pinky (32:15):
it.
question that was ringing in myhead for the past five minutes
or so, which is, Exactly whatyou said.
Can you teach, can you teachsuch a thing or it's as a result
of an environment?
Like, I talk about Jacque Frescoall the time, where it's like,
it's almost impossible to liveoutside of your environment.
And maybe it's something youcould draw people's attention
to, but the environment alwayslike sucks you back in.
(32:37):
I guess the question is how doyou kind of bring more awareness
or how do you, not, not teach,but how do you just bring, bring
more people?
To the idea of you're okay.
Like those spaces you create.
A.M. (32:47):
I think we do a decent job of it and a much better job than
the norm.
And I think it's what Sam justsaid about you, like around you.
Like, it's just it's how youshow up and how you engage is
what has the impact.
And, you know, as used to happenprevious communities, now we
have, what do you have comingback?
Right?
We have, we have, we have analumni event.
We've got, you know Krish, who'sdoing a video for us, this week,
(33:07):
right?
The, the, the, these are ourelders.
These, this is the emerginggroup of village elders that are
coming back in now.
And, you know, over time, moreand more and more are taking
accountability for this thingaround showing up in the space
that invites, you know.
I'm very clear that it's notefficient, that it's not
mappable, but I don't, I'venever found anything more
(33:30):
reliable than just have peoplein the environment who show up
this way.
And over time that environmentgets built and people come in,
then.
We'll engage this way.
I'm looking for, how do we, howdo we ramp it up?
I'm feeling an urgency to, youknow, without getting
artificial, but right, withoutcreating a program, you know,
here's a module on belonging.
We want you to know you belong.
Here's a module on like, but howdo, how do we up the stakes?
Kay Pinky (33:53):
It's definitely possible.
Cause like for me, coming fromGhana, there are certain,
certain mindsets that I have.
Yeah.
That like that I'm so aware of,even in the midst of the
opposite of like that mindsetthat I, that I just, that I just
know I can, I can realize thedifference and and stick to it
and stick to one mindset, youknow?
So I think it's possible.
I don't know how it allhappened.
(34:13):
I, I don't know how it allhappened, but but I think
there's a level of understandingfrom the human, from the person,
you know?
Yeah.
This level of understanding oflike, why?
Why am I enough?
Why is it enough?
That needs to be present forthat to happen.
Because it's not something youtell someone to go through.
The person needs to kind of liveit and understand it.
And be it.
A.M. (34:33):
And Kay take accountability for it.
I won't say a name, but, butthose who know us and certainly
people in this room will knowwho I'm talking about.
But I had a conversationyesterday with somebody in here,
a young man who's been with usfor quite some time.
And, and he just sent yetanother message to me on a topic
where I was just like blown awayat the level of, of just grace
and maturity in somebody in thestate.
And I had the conversation withhim, I called him and I said,
(34:54):
listen, I know I blew smoke yourway.
And it's, it's out of balancefor, you know, your employer to
have, you know, but, but I justkeep feeling me to have these
conversations like, A, I wantyou to be aware of just like how
unique you are in terms of yourlevel of, you know, impact and
authenticity.
And, and, but B, and this is aboundary violation, but I'm
going to say it.
I need you to like, takeaccountability for it.
(35:17):
Whether you like it or not,you're going to be a leader.
Whether you want it or not,people are going to look to you
as a reference point and youlikely dismiss it because it's
just natural expression for you.
Right?
Like, no, this is just how youact.
This message that he sent waslike so leaderful, but, but for
him, it's just, no, this is justwhat you do.
Right.
And so you overlook it.
And so I think another thingthere, Kay is, is, is taking
(35:38):
accountability for it.
Not like, Hey, I'm good at this.
Right.
but taking accountability.
How do I deepen my expression ofit?
How do I become more reliablefor it?
How do I et cetera, et cetera.
You know I think that's anotherpart of it.
Kay Pinky (35:50):
Yeah.
It's interesting.
Like, you know, that, that stuffthat's taken for granted, people
are, people are willing to paymoney for, you know, to, to be
taught that.
So yeah, it's, it's, so it's notlike, yeah.
Take accountability in the senseof, like, go brag that you know
how to do this thing, but, likejust being aware of it, you
could be a lot of, you could bea lot of help to a lot of
people.
You could lead by example andshape a whole community for
good.
Sam (36:10):
Yeah.
It's really funny, because Iactually did teach a lot of
Lessons on belonging and likehow to create senses of
belonging as a queer person.
So it's really funny So I waslike I used to I did a lot of
research on it Yeah, and a lotof it related to retention like
has so a lot of my research isactually on belonging My entire
thing is about identityretention on belonging And so
something I found reallyinteresting is kind of similar
(36:30):
to what y'all speaking about isthere was research done on it
And there's four primarycharacteristics of belonging in
places Where do people look likeme?
Where am I valued and cared for?
Where is my racial identity andculture recognized and valued?
And where do I share theinterests and values with
others?
So, through the lens ofbelonging, the idea of micro
settings, basically that face toface immediate interaction, is
(36:51):
where a person exists.
So where you exist in youridentity matters a lot, and yet
very little because it's just anassertion that you exist.
It's just a little flavorfuladdition for yourself.
So a lot of the times when wetalked about belonging, it was
kind of like, okay, you'reoftentimes just looking at this
one lens of yourself andbelonging isn't necessarily
something you can learn and youdo it every time.
(37:12):
And so something that we talkedabout, especially when it came
to leadership, is understandingthere's this zone of interest or
zone of intrigue for individualswhere, If you make a certain
level of belonging for eachindividual, because they all
exist on a spectrum, that's whenthey'll be most engaged and most
wanting to learn and contributeback to your community.
So the more you make a placefeel like it belongs to a
person, the more they want tohelp the community, the more
(37:32):
that helps someone else belong.
And so by simply engaging withone or two individuals, trying
to make them feel like, I matterhere, I'm valued, I can share my
culture and values here, even ifwe may not align, is an
important aspect of belonging.
But it's also important that youcontinuously do this process.
And so when we taught that, itwas like, this is not going to
be your end all be all, but thiswas oftentimes people who never
(37:52):
even understood this.
They came from places ofadministration where it was like
all about numbers and data andwhile that was important, a lot
of your data would have improvedhad you just taken a step back
into the communities and satwith them.
So it's really funny that you'llboth say that is.
I think that it is taught, butit's not taught in the kind of
traditional way where it's likeit's a one, two, three step.
It's, it's, it never will be,but it's important that you ask
(38:14):
the questions of what doesbelonging mean for this
community?
How do they define it?
And how do I engage with it insuch a way that I'm not the
person creating the belonging.
I'm simply a person engaged inthe space, helping that
community build and get thetools they need to build their
sense of belonging forthemselves.
A.M. (38:31):
Yep.
Yep.
Let's just see if this fits foryou, Sam.
In the in the Masters inLeadership program, one of the
things Mel and I would kind of,you know, one of the, whatever,
two dozen kind of anchorprinciples we never kept a list
but, but, but really kind of aclarity for us was that
leadership fundamentally cannotbe taught, but it can be
learned, right?
And so it's about creating aspace within which individuals
(38:53):
can learn their expression ofleadership, but I can't teach it
to you as a thing, right?
Does that fit for you aroundbelonging?
Sam (38:59):
Yeah, I definitely think that there's different forms of
leaders.
There's servant leadership,civil leadership, servitude.
There's the typical idealleadership and there is bad
leadership.
That's the thing too.
But it's also to understand,like I did a lot of courses on,
on student leadership.
It's one of my favorite thingsthat I liked researching.
And we would read all of thesemethods, all of these things,
like why it didn't understand.
And one of the things I reallyliked is we created this
(39:19):
Covenant of Accountability.
We all came up, a professor hadus all write it in, what we
agreed to, and at the end we allsigned it.
We all agreed to this thing.
And so when something washappening that we didn't feel
like we were supported, we couldcome back to it, reassess, and
we could just create it as aliving document and re
understand it.
And that was something for methat really mattered as a leader
because I was student councilpresident, I was president of my
(39:39):
club, and I was always stressedthat I wasn't enough, that I
was, you know, you're this,you're the representation of
queer and you speak for allthese people and yet you do not
ever want to say the wrongthings.
So I was very transparent ineverything I did.
I said, Hey, we're going tospeak to administration.
Here's what I propose movingforward.
What are your thoughts on it?
When we chose the logo, when wechose the name, I proposed
everything forward.
I was like, I am open toeverything you'll have to say
within these boundaries, butthis is what I was open to.
(40:01):
And A lot of it, I think, mademe a better leader because at
the time I really, I don't thinkI was very good.
I was very much like,productivity based, where it's
like, Okay, I asked you to getthis thing, why didn't you get
it done?
And I'll never forget, Iremember the moment it changed
for me was, I was sitting at thetable one day, all my executives
came in and I was like, Nothinggot done that day, and I was
like, so what happened?
And they all looked with fear,and I was like, I'm asking you,
(40:22):
what happened?
And like, they were sittingthere nervous, and I'm like,
With you as people.
Are you stressed?
Did something happen?
Do we need to go on a break?
What are we feeling?
Have the honest conversationwith me.
I'm not angry.
I'm concerned because you alllook distressed.
You all look frustrated.
I hear that.
I see that.
And I want to hear that in thisway so I can make the proper
judgment.
(40:43):
So that entire thing, thatentire meeting was just them
venting about what was going on,what was happening.
I listened to everything.
I said, all right, proposingmoving forward.
How about we just take thebreak?
Take a whole week off.
You all do what you need to do.
They all agreed to it.
And I went to my club and Isaid, I know this event is
important to you, but I'mcanceling it for the health of
my executives.
This is a conversation and thisis a decision I'm making and I'm
more than willing to takeaccountability for that thing.
(41:04):
And that was something thatreally mattered to them.
And a lot of these executiveswent on to be executives for
other clubs, you know, speak atgraduations, and I realized,
like, those moments where Irealized I didn't know
everything.
To me, not having an event was apanic time for me.
But I realized, like, my needswere not important.
What mattered to me was to makesure that these people wanted to
come back and work with me andfelt like their voices mattered
(41:25):
and what they were doingmattered and their ideas
mattered.
Like, I never moved forwardwithout them proposing ideas and
without students submittingideas or having the capacity to
do so, even if it was just like,no one ever submitted ideas,
because no one ever did.
Or if they did bring it up to meand said, okay, I'm gonna look
at it.
Realistically, I'll see what Ican do and get back and be as
transparent as possible withyou.
This is my ideas or i'm willingto take you into a space and
have a conversation with me.
(41:46):
The problem with that is you getburnout.
Unless you're getting thesupport from everyone around you
unless you have multiplepractitioners of leadership
There's burnout and I agree withwhat you're saying.
Like you can't teach leadershipand You definitely can help
bring people into the space ofthe type of leadership that's
good for them But if you'resurrounded by a lot of toxic
leadership, it's just You Itreally changes who you are as a
(42:07):
person, and I'm really gratefulI was surrounded by individuals
who are willing to be mychallenge network.
A.M. (42:11):
Yeah, I use leadership in a very specific way, and so the,
the things you're pointing to, Ithink with toxic leadership,
we'd have a different word forit, but in principle, we're
together.
When you first started talking,though, I just, Smiling because
I, I thought, my God, you wouldhave loved the MAOL.
But really the thought is theMAOL really would have loved
you.
Mel would have loved you, Sam.
The covenantial was another sortof distinction for us, a
(42:31):
contractual and covenantial thatwith human relationships, there
are contractual elements likeyou all here, DAE, there, there
are contractual elements.
There's like a a set of contractelements you have in the context
of your job.
That you owe me certain things,outputs and hours and etc.
And then I, we owe you a certainnumber of dollars and a certain
number of days off, right?
So there are contractualelements.
(42:52):
But where the juice is, wherethe thing lives is the
covenantal relationship we have.
Which is all the kind of thingswe talk about here where there
is no getting it right or wrong.
There is a agreement to movetowards a certain horizon that
we can never get to, but we keepmoving further and further
towards it.
And we drift, we correct eachother, help each other to move,
you know.
And, and that's missing fromschool, that's missing from
(43:14):
workplace, that's missing fromsociety, is all contractual
elements.
Again, back to zone of interest,right?
It is all, it is a, it is aburying of the covenantal
relationships that we as humanbeings have with each other.
And it's focusing solely on thecontractual elements.
Here's what I'm getting done.
I'm getting it done well.
I'm getting it done efficiently,and I get these rewards for it.
Right?
And there is no covenant there.
(43:34):
There is no human relationship.
And nature, I think, is allcovenantial, and there's no
contractual.
Human beings need a certainamount of contractual to live in
a society.
But it's all covenant.
It's all a certain horizon we'removing towards together.
That isn't about gettinganywhere, but it's about moving.
That's another one that, youknow, I belong, I'm okay, et
cetera.
Another, possibly the biggestone in this society is helping
(43:55):
people let go of the notion thatthings can be done, that the
things that matter to them canbe done, that they can be done.
That's the most important one,that there is a doneness, that I
can get somewhere that has tobe, I'm done now.
I'm finished.
I made it.
Whether that's affirmation, ormoney, or safety, or there's no
done.
That's another one if you canhelp people loosen their grip on
(44:15):
there's a very kind of Westernnotion.
I find, you know, loosens thingsup.
Sam (44:19):
You know what, this really reminds me of Kay, you remember
when we did the design with oursix week students?
And one of the activities we didwas like a two truths and a
wish.
And so we had the students sharetwo truths and something that
they wished for their future.
And we talked about how you canidentify that by just listening,
watching the body, how theycommunicate.
And these students were able toidentify wishes, but we also
learned about each other in thisprocess.
(44:40):
And so as we were building outthis design process, we asked
them, you know, like, you know,Interview each other, you know,
what are the conversationsyou're having?
What is the wish that you havefor each other?
What are the things you like ordislike?
What are the things you wouldchange?
And it was really interesting tokind of have this like talk back
of like, what do you think?
What are your thoughts?
And for them to be like, oh, Ilike this thing and it matters
because of this or oh I didn'tunderstand this because of this
(45:01):
but now this makes me want to dothis right now I'm interested in
exploring this because of thisand just the energy and the joy
that was brought forward fromjust Creating the sense of,
like, what you do matters, andyou belong here, and what you're
doing, the work you do, and whoyou are.
That your core work is, belongshere, and it really brings me
back to this idea of, I learnedin research, because I never saw
(45:21):
myself as a researcher.
Well, research is me search.
You are inherently a part of thething you choose to study or do.
And I definitely feel likethat's something I see a lot
with the six week students,which is why, like, every time I
see them, I get this, like, Purejoy, because I know what they're
doing is so deeply ingrained inwho they are and what they're
designing for.
Maybe something that started asa self made project, but it's
expanding to include so manymore communities that are
(45:44):
involved and they're re engagingwith like, the high school
students in the year long.
And it's just, it's just reallygreat to see them just like,
even if it's online, they'relike, Hey Sam, you're here.
Like every student, whenever I'monline grabbing the computer to
say hello or tell me about theirday is like those beautiful
things that I just, I loveabout.
This community and how it makespeople belong
A.M. (46:02):
The last sentence feels like a like a like a like a good
cap it really does like thatsentiment, If you all are good
with it we're going to treatthat as as the cap Yeah, but but
but I have some some someadministrative business for for
the for the dozens of listenersso we've been playing with this
close to a year now, and Iwanted to sort of play with it
for a while to sort ofunderstand, you know, what, what
makes sense.
(46:22):
There's two things I'm, I'minterested in feedback.
I mean, in general, if you getfeedback, you know, a couple of
you informally have provided it,but I'm, I'm actively more
looking for feedback.
But two things specific, I'mthinking of of a live, episode
to allow folks to sort ofengage, and, and would you be up
for that?
And the second is now that wemore than have our legs under
us, I want to start bringing inother people.
(46:44):
There are people, you know,nationally that I know that
really are cool and interestingand are part of our conversation
without being part of our, youknow we have a covenantal
relationship with, let me saythat there are people with whom
I have covenantal relationshipsin, in, in the sorts of
inquiries that we do here.
There I want to start bringingin, but, but I would love
feedback on, on either topics orareas or, or, or types of folks.
(47:06):
So that's it.
So I'm looking for feedback, amat absurd wisdom.
com.
You can, you can ping medirectly.
I'm looking for feedback on aswe close out sort of season one
here soon.
Where would you like to see thisthing go?
Because it is going to go.
For a while at least.
That's as committed as I get.
For a while at least.
Scott (47:23):
Moving towards the horizon.
A.M. (47:24):
Yeah, that's it.
Well, this is it.
I don't, you know, there'snowhere we're trying to get to.
There's certainly nowhere I'mtrying to get to.
So, that's it.
That's the request.
Thank you all for listening.
And go see Zone of Interest.
Go see it when you have, like Isaid, some time afterwards to
process it.
Kay Pinky (47:36):
I'm going to watch it.
A.M. (47:37):
Okay.
Kyley (47:38):
I'm, I'm really intrigued by your response.
Kay Pinky (47:40):
I'm gonna watch it.
Like I, Scott, Scott sold it forme.
I'm gonna watch it.
I did, yeah.
How did he sell it?
I don't know.
I was just interested.
I just really want to find outthese things y'all talking about
for myself.
Sam (47:50):
Okay.
Kay Pinky (47:50):
Not, yeah, I just really want to find it.
I find out This is good.
It was a good listen for me.
Sam (47:54):
Well, it's also based off a book, I think, the movie, too.
Kay Pinky (47:57):
Yeah, Luce he took a lot of
A.M. (47:58):
liberties with it, but yeah.
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