This episode examines the significance of balancing preparedness and improvisation in various aspects, contrasting traditional educational values with the necessity for innovative and student-centric approaches. It underscores the importance of risk-taking in education while cultivating inclusive and engaging learning environments. The discussion advocates for a shift towards valuing adaptability, creativity, and individual experiences in education to foster genuine engagement and personal growth.
You can find a.m. on Instagram and TikTok at @absurdwisdom. We are produced and distributed by DAE Presents, the production arm of DAE (@dae.community on Instagram and online at mydae.org).
The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the speakers and do not necessarily reflect the views or positions of any entities they represent. While we make every effort to ensure that the information shared is accurate, we welcome any comments, suggestions, or correction of errors.
You can contact us at daepresents@mydae.org.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
a.m. (01:44):
So I didn't send out a topic and so if you're up for
it, I think that's the topic isbeing sort of being prepared
versus, you know, it, it, itit's not a new thought for me,
but, you know, like I, I am.
So good In situations where i'mcompletely unprepared like just
improvising just whatever it islike, you know, whether it's a
(02:04):
like a public speaking event orin front of a classroom or
Whatever like if there's acrisis it's part of what would
build the career right?
It's just there's a crisis goingon cool Follow me, like it just,
you know, kind of figuring itout in the, in the moment.
Part of that is just, just, I'msure, you know, adaptation
survival skill from how I grewup, you know, just kind of
getting thrown around a lot.
And, and these kind ofcompletely foreign situations
(02:27):
where it's like you couldn'thave planned for it if you
wanted to, and you certainlydidn't plan for it.
Figure it out.
You don't speak the language.
You don't know anybody.
Figure it out.
So, you know, maybe it'sadaptation skill.
Maybe it's genetic.
Whatever the thing is.
And I think there are situationswhere preparation is really, you
know, useful, if not critical,but certain types of
preparation.
(02:47):
And so that's the, maybe that'sthe topic, is kind of what's
your relationship topreparation?
Over preparation, underpreparation, non preparation,
and then, you know, maybeimprovising and riffing as a
side topic on that.
He asks the question withoutpreparing anybody.
Kyley (03:03):
I guess my own personal experience with it.
Mm hmm.
For me, it's from my, my, mybase machinery around.
I'm the only one I can rely on,so being prepared for myself is
something that I tend to be goodat.
And when it includes socialnorms, I have a more significant
difficulty.
So like, if the building was onfire, I'd feel super
(03:25):
comfortable.
But if you put me in front of aboard of people to ask me
questions, and there's like somesocial norms I don't understand,
and I didn't wear a tie andeverybody else wore a tie, I'm
gonna have a weird time.
Like, like, there definitely,there are areas of preparation
for me that are easier thanothers.
And I wonder, and one thing forme is like it's similar on the
outside piece, it's similar onthe showing up on time for
(03:47):
stuff, or like the showing ofcare, where like if you come to
a thing and you aren't preparedto engage with that, like you
are showing that you don't careabout it, and that's not
necessarily the true statement,but that's sometimes how I
perceive it.
If you can fake it, cool, if youcan, can swing it and go for it,
fine, but if, if you're, if youshow up and you're not ready for
the conversation.
Or the experience or whatever itis.
You need to go get water andfind your tool belt and check
(04:11):
your phone and whatever and Ihave to wait around for you.
It's it's like the opposite.
It causes harm to the moment forme.
Yeah.
Sam (04:19):
You're talking to a chronically over prepared person
I'm, pretty Kyley could speak tothat if it's like I won't say
anything unless i've likeresearched four different
articles and books on it.
I'm i'm I don't know how to livewithout being prepared I'm not
prepared for this.
a trap
a.m. (04:34):
Yeah.
Kyley (04:35):
That brings up an interesting question, though.
Because, like You are the mostprepared person to have a
conversation about how youprepare because you're the one
who experiences your ownpreparation.
Like, you couldn't be moreprepared for this in some
capacity.
There is an actual question foroutside resources.
It's hey Sam, what'spreparedness for you?
How does that, how do you, howdo you show up in spaces?
Sam (04:57):
Yeah, I think it's just, it's, it's my researcher brain,
like, it's not that I can't,like, if I'm put in front of a
crowd, it's really funny.
I'm the complete opposite.
I, I don't really come preparedfor things.
I just kind of go off a vibe.
So I'm really good.
Like my, my team used to belike, we don't know what to talk
about this.
I was like, just tag me and Igot you.
I could do this like in mysleep.
But I think one thing that Ithink I got out of researching
(05:18):
was like, you can't really eversay anything without the proof.
You don't really, you can'treally talk about like your
process or your data, how yougot to somewhere without proof.
And I think like part of me as aperson realized, like I liked
routine.
I liked being able to speak towhy I did something, how it
worked for me, being able toshow that it worked for me was
really beneficial, but I thinkfor me, the preparedness always
(05:39):
kind of came from the need tovalidate myself to other people,
not necessarily for myself.
I'm a very disorganized person.
The other day I was like, Irolled over and I was like,
where did all these art suppliescame from?
Oh, yeah, I was doing art.
I forgot I was doing that.
And I was like now I gotta getthis clean again Oh, no, cuz my
partner's coming like I can'tsee this.
So it's And I think it just alsocomes from leadership positions
(06:02):
constantly having to prove likewhy you're choosing to make that
choice and not another choice soI think like Being prepared kind
of comes with that social normthing for me, too.
It's it's like How can I speakin a room full of people with
ties if I don't have a tie,unless I have data that proves
why I didn't have the tie, thatway I can speak to that and
prove my worth.
(06:25):
Don't necessarily, you know, putyou in a good place for being
unprepared, but at the sametime, you know, like you were
saying, sometimes, you know,being a subject matter expert in
something and then improvisingon that can be a real, a real
way to communicate somethingdifferent than having, you know,
here's your handouts and
Kyley (06:43):
I'm a bit, but even in how I hear that, like being a
subject matter expert isinherently a kind of
preparation, even though you'reyou're not coming.
You're not, you're not a blankslate coming to this.
You're coming with whatever,however many years of experience
to a thing.
And so in my, I guess myopinion, you are both prepared
and prepared to the point whereyou can now make jazz.
(07:04):
I guess it's, you know, you nowknow the scales, you have the
base of the scales.
You've done this for a while andnow you are prepared enough to
break from strict, rigidexpectations.
a.m. (07:15):
The first blog I ever had back in the early days of, of
blogging, you know, thesethousands, it was called Prepare
for Surprise.
And that's a line from Carse.
And the line is to be trained,is to be prepared against
surprise, to be educated is tobe prepared for surprise.
And so not to say one is betterthan the other.
And so to be trained is to beprepared against a surprise,
(07:38):
meaning that, you know, all thescenarios so well that nothing
can surprise you.
And there are areas where beingprepared against surprise is
really, really useful from themundane of, of, you know, the
person who's making your coffeeat the shop, there's nothing you
can order that they don't knowhow to make.
Unless you're just being weirdfor the sake of being, you know,
(07:58):
just making something up likesome nonsense to mess with them.
I don't know.
But point is like that.
So that's a product of training,right?
They're prepared againstsurprise.
And there's lots of aspects morecomplex than that, but that's a
simple, you know, example to getat where being prepared against
surprise, being trained in thatthing is really useful,
beneficial, valuable, ethical,et cetera.
Right.
But to be educated is to beprepared for a surprise, meaning
(08:20):
that, that your relationshipwith the thing, right, so jazz,
your relationship with the thingis so deep that you're free of
the constraints of knowing andwhat shows up, you can now deal
with that thing as its own wholething.
And so, Sam, I'd say myexperience of you, Even just
indirectly hearing stories aboutIs that actually you you operate
(08:42):
from that place with thestudents, right?
So there's all this preparationyou're bringing but that's not
what's showing up It's dealingwith the student in that, you
know in that moment and makingstuff up in that moment, right?
But that's a different kind ofpreparation it includes the
training preparation but Youhave to be involved You Like, I
have to be there to make jazz,to educate the way we do.
(09:05):
I have to be there to teach aclass.
I don't have to be there.
My mind has to be there.
And all the facts in it, and allthe examples, and all of that
has to be there.
So I can get it all right foryou.
So you can get it right, and Ican tell you you got it right.
Right?
And again, that's notdismissive.
There are areas where that iscritical.
But to educate is a differentkind of development and it
requires you to be there.
(09:26):
You should be at risk, engagedbecause you're, if you're going
to play good jazz, you're goingto make bad notes.
And then you're going to figureout how that bad note gets
transformed into part of thesong.
Kyley (09:36):
Let me know if this takes off on a tangent.
But it made me think of cooking.
I say that because I am at nopoint formally trained to cook.
My food is fine.
There's some stuff I make that'sgood.
There's some stuff I make bad,but my bar for what comes out of
my food is truly like, willpeople generally eat this?
And that wouldn't work if I wasin a restaurant.
(09:57):
Like if I was like, so there isa level of preparation to based
on what your expected outcomeis.
We're like, I make food, I wantit to kind of generally taste
good and include mostly food.
Like, those are the kind of likeimportant boundary conditions
that I have for when I cookstuff.
And my preparation isn't, I gofind a recipe, it's like, what
do I have?
(10:17):
I, this stuff kind of works, wenow have food.
I guess it has a differentdimension because preparation
for a thing is also based onwhat you expect the outcome to
be.
a.m. (10:26):
Yeah, that, that, that, that threshold of, of, you know,
surprise is, is lower,
Kyley (10:30):
Yeah,
a.m. (10:31):
It's just, it's just, it has to be edible,
Kyley (10:33):
Yeah, I want to be able to eat it and generally enjoy
it.
Yeah, fine.
a.m. (10:37):
There's a, sort of shadow side to that where people, you
know nobody in our audience,you're all amazing but people
hear, you know, versions of, andit's, a virus, you know, these
last 15 years with social media,but people hear the other side
of that, the prepared forsurprise, the jazz that, you
know, and it's licensed to,yeah, I'm just going to wing it,
Kyley (10:54):
yeah,
a.m. (10:54):
men and hype women where they got no relationship to the
thing.
And they're gonna come in and,and Oh yeah, let a And they've
like, you know, jumped around to40 different places in six years
and they've never, you know and,and then it's like, I'm good at
improv.
yeah, Yeah, yeah, just tell meyour problem.
I'm, I'm good at, on the fly,making up, like that's, you
know, that's not what we'repointing to,
Kyley (11:12):
Yeah.
a.m. (11:13):
Yeah.
Scott (11:13):
I kind of it takes me immediately to music.
You know, I've been playingbands for years and a lot of
what I end up doing becomes sortof like a muscle memory.
Writing a part and then learningthe part.
Yeah.
And then playing it, you know,on stage or in the studio or
whatever.
One little thing, kind of beingnot right, you know, either the
sound is bad or you're tucked ina corner or there's loud people
(11:35):
and, you know, can really screwup the whole thing that you rely
on, what you're listening to.
So there is that sense of like,all right, I'm going to wing it.
But it is based on the work thathas already been done and you
kind of like modulate yourvolume or performance or
whatever Sometimes I'll juststop and listen and then come
right back in like the next timearound So it's one of those
(11:57):
things where sometimes you justgot to like give yourself space
to get the perspective you knowif everybody has a tie on just
Look at all their ties for a fewminutes and then do your thing
kind of you know the way itfeels to me
a.m. (12:08):
I'm gonna play right now.
And, and just parallel of, of ofwhat you're saying.
In, in, in theater stuff, rightthere, there are folks who will
learn their lines and they'lllearn the blocking, it's like.
cool, I'm doing it.
Kind of not.
You know, you're doing areading.
And there it becomes tougher toimprovise.
And I don't know if that's thecase in music, right?
(12:30):
Where they're just locked intothe script and not paying
attention to the moment andwhat's happening.
And so the thing is correct.
All the words are said in theright order.
They're standing in the rightplace, But there's nothing
actually
Scott (12:42):
the feeling's not there?
a.m. (12:44):
There's nothing because there's no, They're in the
They're not being, they're notbeing surprised.
So this I wanted to get to whereI'm right?
Even in something like, like,like, like, stage work, where
literally your every word isprescribed in advance, your
every footstep is prescribed inadvance for the most part,
right?
Unless something goes wrong.
Even in that.
(13:04):
When it goes really well, it's asurprise.
It's like my own words are asurprise to me.
Your words that I've heard 50times in rehearsals are a
surprise to me because we're inthe moment of the thing.
And then, you know, you can, youcan improvise not changing any
of the words, not changing anyof the steps, but how you say
them each night, how youinteract each night.
It's like a different show andthat's fucking amazing.
(13:24):
Right?
And I'm imagining it's a similarthing in music.
Yeah?
Scott (13:27):
Yeah, it's really, there's so many variables and
it's one of those things where,you know, I get one bad cable
and my setup can ruin the wholething For me, I, you know, I
have to either remove somethingor add something else to
compensate for it.
And it kind of shifts the wholelike, wave thing.
But then once the, once that'sresolved, it's like relaxed into
it again, can happen, but it hasto be resolved, you know, at
(13:50):
some point when it happens.
Kyley (13:52):
take this in a different direction because that's just
the way my brain is workingtoday.
I'm thinking of our students,our high school students in
particular.
All of them are going off tocollege.
or going off to something posthigh school or even building
projects and stuff.
And in a lot of those cases, itseems like preparedness is
almost a blocker.
Like I'm not ready.
(14:13):
I don't have enough.
My, my SAT grades aren't goodenough.
My, I don't have the ideas andfully formalized.
And there is a timeline where adecision has to be made.
And in some ways it seems as ifthe like preparation that
they're doing It's almost in theway of their own success.
And I wonder about that in somecapacity when we're working with
(14:33):
students.
My video game's not ready.
I can't show it to you.
Well, and I don't, I'm notlooking for a final video game.
What do you got?
I can't, I can't do this thing.
I'm not ready.
I don't know enough.
Sam (14:43):
don't think so.
Kyley (14:45):
No, I don't think so.
You may have said it, but Icouldn't give you a description
for it.
Sam (14:50):
you a description for it.
So, for example they gave abunch of students, like, these
candles and a rope, and theywere like, alright, like, figure
out this, like, problem.
I forgot what it was, but theywere like, figure out this
problem.
And the students only saw thecandles, like, doing one thing,
and only the rope doing, like,one thing, and they just
(15:11):
couldn't figure it out.
It was just, like, continually,over and over and over and over
again, until they used it in anunconventional way, a way that
isn't typically used, and a lotof people just got caught.
And so for me, it's funny thatyou mention that, because I went
to a high school that was like,it was an academic high school.
We were prepared to go tocollege.
That was their whole deal.
Like, you had to take even acollege course.
And it was just horrible.
(15:33):
Like, I was really bad at it.
And then I get, like, so manypeople ask me, like, oh, how did
you pick your school?
Like, it seems like you weremeant for the thing you do.
Like, you seem to speak so, andI was like, Man, I want the
honest truth.
I only went to college causethere was some guy I was dating.
I wanted to go to the samecollege as him.
That was it.
Like I didn't, I didn't reallyhave a college in mind.
Cause I was told the same thing.
(15:54):
Like your GPA is not goodenough.
Your bottom rank of your class.
Don't even try.
You're not even worth going tocollege.
So I was like, cool.
I have no purpose.
That's, that's fine.
I'm not prepared not to go tocollege.
I can't figure this out.
I don't know how to take theproper notes.
I'm bad at this.
And we had this like peersuccess coach I was trying to
teach us how to be like goodcollege students and it just
didn't really work for me Likeit just nothing was taking I was
(16:15):
like, yeah, this is just proof.
I'm not meant for college andthere was one professor who was
just like And I forget this islike you could treat life like a
hoop or a portal Like you couldjust jump through the thing over
and over again and get the thingdone kind of what tay i'm
speaking about Just speaking thelines but not with feeling or
you can treat things like aportal like yeah You may not
like the thing but you'll knowwhat you liked and what you
didn't like what you learnedfrom that And I decided to just
(16:36):
take that and run with it.
And so I just turned to theperson next to like, Hey man, I
don't know how to take notes.
I thought I knew how to takenotes.
I don't know how to take notes.
Can I look at your notes?
And they explained to me theirprocess and everything.
I was like, wow, that's reallycool.
So I started running a blog onlike, how to study.
Like, what works for differentpeople.
I started mentoring otherstudents on how to like, learn.
And like, I think something forme that that kind of hammered
this in is like, being preparedreally is a blocker for school
(16:58):
sometimes.
We were in the psychology class.
Psychology 101 class.
And there was a bunch of us onthe left side They kind of
called us like the burnoutsbecause they didn't think we
were good, right?
But when you really looked atus, it was a police officer, a
full time mom Me and anotherstudent and this one girl would
come up to us all the time.
What did you get on your test?
I got a hundred and one becauseI got the bonus point and we
just sit there like, okay We hada little study group.
(17:21):
We'd bring snacks We'd workevery day and I'd sit there and
we'd teach each other like I'dbe in the room.
We'd work on it I'll neverforget that the day she came and
she was sewing, she's like, Oh,I got an 80 on this test.
Every single person I go, well,we got the 101 plus the bonus
point and she just couldn'tunderstand like why we were like
getting so good and she wasn'tdoing great and we're like,
cause you just flew into this.
Like you think you knoweverything, but you're not
(17:42):
listening to your peers.
Your peers have things just fromtheir own life experiences that
they were bringing in.
Like the mom was bringing inabout how like psychology
affected her as a mom and thatwas related to what we're
talking about in that chapter.
The police officer was talkingabout trauma and how we bring
that in and like all of thathelped us.
Because we're connecting tothese real scenarios and we're
preparing together as a groupAnd I agree with you like
there's a blocker because Ithink the community tells you
(18:04):
how to be prepared But I don'treally tell you like At a lot of
colleges, you're just wingingit.
You're not supposed to know whatyou gotta do.
You're not supposed to know whoyou're supposed to be.
You're, you're not this one setthing that's gonna be like a
doctor by the end of this or alawyer by the end of this.
You're gonna change your major acouple times, maybe even five.
That's what I did.
And people are like, oh, you,this was your calling.
I was like, no it wasn't.
I had no idea what I was doing.
(18:26):
I still don't know what I'mdoing and I'll figure it out
when I get there.
It is what it is.
So I, I think that's, I thinkthat's what it is.
That's, that is a blocker.
I think being prepared is notwhat we think it is, and we
should stop labeling it as likecollege is this big thing you've
got to do, like, I'm not sayinggo there and go party and go
have fun, you can absolutely godo that, but go there and
explore who you want to be, evenif your parents are like, you
(18:47):
have to be this thing, you'renot going to be happy if you do
that.
a.m. (18:50):
We've had this conversation in different ways
before in here, but it's, it'sin part what I, what I hear in
this is.
this, this, this horrible thingwe do in the society of, of
collapsing psychology andontology.
And so what I think, what I do,what my skills are is one for
one correlated with who I be.
they're not, they're separatethings.
(19:11):
Yeah.
I have a, I have a, you know Ihave a bad SAT score.
I have a bad grade pointaverage.
I have, you know, whatever it iseven the positive stuff.
I have a high SAT score.
But that's not who I am.
Yeah.
Those are totally differentdomains, but we collapsed them.
Kyley (19:28):
Yeah, what I hear in some of that too is like, you're in
some ways potentially preparingthe wrong way or a way that
isn't useful to you long termbecause like, just because you
can get a good SAT score doesn'tmean you know how to study,
understand information andthink, which is what what what
college really or make decisionsor recourse correct, do any of
(19:49):
those kinds of things that thattruly is important when you get
to doing stuff.
a.m. (19:54):
Well, so, so yes to all that, but, but even deeper,
Kyley, none of those thingsmatter relative to am I content?
Do I feel safe?
Do I belong?
Do I love myself?
All right, you can't plan forthose things and there's no any
scorecard you put to themimmediately ensures an F There
are aspects of life that as soonas you put a scorecard to you've
(20:16):
already failed.
You can't win
Sam (20:18):
Thank you for saying it because I, I'm at this point
where like I am taking collegecourses.
I got special acceptance againstthis capstone.
And I literally have not doneany schoolwork at all.
I just want to drop out.
I love all the stuff I'mlearning, but it's not working
and I was talking with someoneabout like I don't get it.
Like, I love learning, I loveresearching, but I hate this,
and they're like, you hate thegrade, and I was like, that's
(20:38):
the truth, like, I don't want tosubmit an essay so you can tell
me all the things I did wrong,and then assign a grade point
average to it, that makes mefeel like garbage, especially if
there's someone next to me whowas like, yeah, I winged it, and
got a hundred, I'm like, dude,this feels like garbage, like,
maybe you came from a privilegedfamily, I gave you tutoring, and
you understand this conceptbetter than I do, or maybe you
have background experience inthis, like, That frustrates me
and i'm especially frustrated inthis one capstone class I have
(21:01):
because I have background inresearch like I already have a
research project This is threeyears in the making and there
was a student the other day He'slike, I just don't know what i'm
doing I don't feel like i'm goodenough and I got so angry in the
class.
I cut the class off.
I was like no No, you're good atthis thing.
Everyone gets stuck in thatplace We're all confused and
frustrated and we're here tohelp you and if you can't lean
on your community here We failedas a classroom this professor
(21:22):
failed and even my professorshe's worked with me She was
like, yeah sam's right on thislike You know, and I think
that's, that's the problem withschooling is like, I'm so tired
of these grades.
I'm so tired of being assignedlike this worth.
Like I'll never forget.
I got on this paper one time, aprofessor was just like, you're
better than this.
That was the feedback.
You're better than this.
And I got to see, I worked likethree weeks on this paper and I,
(21:43):
I'm not going to say I was thebest writer, but like, God, I
wanted to just cry.
I felt like trash.
And I was like, Oh man, I can'tever do this right.
And then being a part of aclassroom where I was like,
yeah, like, I like how you didthis part.
Push yourself here.
You can do this here.
Like, step out of your comfortzone here.
I learned a lot more.
And I'm realizing like, schooljust really isn't for me.
Not for the fact that I can't doschool.
I'm really good at learning.
(22:04):
I'm really good at explaining.
I'm really good at teaching.
I just hate being told my gradepoint average like trying to go
for a doctor is the most abusivething ever because it's like All
right If you don't get thisgreat point average you go to a
mid Doctor and a mid doctor isnot where you want to be and
like, you know Then you're notput first on the research.
I'm like, what if I just likeWanted to read about it crazy
(22:24):
thought what if I just want towork with people and talk about
what they think about thingscrazy Thought oh, that's not a
thing we do here.
Great.
Why am I here?
a.m. (22:33):
My 80s punk ass would respond to that professor, of,
You're better than that commentto a student.
You know?
Like, it's just horrible, man.
There's this thing that gotlaunched, you know, year in
October, the Dalio FoundationCommission Boston Consulting
Group to do this researchproject.
And they came up with this 119,000 right, 119, 000 disengaged
(22:54):
youth age 14 to 26 inConnecticut, just in
Connecticut.
Right.
And so this past week there's acommission formed.
It's a bunch of mayors from theother cities, all the cities in
Connecticut, and then the headof the Dalio foundation.
And they're, you know, they'relaunching his commission.
And I submitted a video for the,you know, they're looking for
perspectives on people who areworking on this.
Okay.
And, and the message I sent themwas, you know, engagement is
(23:15):
not, how do we get these kidsengaged in the exciting careers
that are out there?
Engagement is not, how do we getthese kids to understand that
they can make money?
Engagement is not, how do we getthese kids excited about
college?
Engagement is not anythingexternal, right?
If you only focus there, allyou're ever going to get is
compliance.
People who will do the thingbecause the carrot is sweet
(23:37):
enough.
And then eventually they'll falloff.
The only thing engagement everis, is engagement with yourself.
And the work with these 119, 000kids is, can we help them get
engaged with themselves?
And then from there, they willtake on whatever they're going
to take on and actually beprepared to take advantage of
all the things that areavailable to them.
You know, and that comment fromthat professor is like, it's
(23:58):
like such a invitation todisengage from yourself.
Well, and, and we do do that intraditional schooling a lot.
It's, it's, you know, putyourself aside.
It's not about your sense of, ofwhy you're here on the planet.
It's about, this is the path toget to Z and these are the X, Y
reasons why you should value Z.
And let me help you convince,you know, help convince you of
(24:19):
that.
Scott (24:20):
Brought back to me when we first started this podcast.
28 episodes ago or somethingthere was a visit from field
trip and teachers came in and Iremember you talking about it
like That that they weredehydrate the teachers
themselves were so dehydratedFrom having to navigate within
the system.
(24:40):
They couldn't They couldn't givethemselves enough empathy to
show that for the kids as wellThat's kind of what it felt like
and then we talked about it alittle bit that way Do you feel
like that?
You You know, the way to engageyouth within the systems that we
have now is to sort of startground up and sort of, you know,
re, re educate the educators onsome level and like, is there a
(25:02):
middle ground?
Is there external?
a.m. (25:03):
know how to disengage person engages.
Yeah, I mean, it helps othersget engaged.
Like you look at, you know,again, the secret sauce for is
and always has been in thisplace in previous places.
It's the people.
It's, you know, Sam and Kyleyengage with the students day to
day.
Yeah.
And we've had, you know, we'vehad misses, you know, not bad
people, but folks who justweren't engaged at that level.
(25:24):
They say, oh, I thought this wasa job.
No, it's not a job.
There's a job, there's pay,there's all these things, but
that's, you know.
And, and, and so yeah, I thinkthat's it.
And I, I think it's easy to bashteachers and say they're not
doing a good job.
But exactly right.
They're, they're, theythemselves are dehydrated.
Who's, who's helping them getengaged in that intrinsic way?
You know the whole thing isturned into this bureaucratic
(25:45):
machine that is all about thetalent pipeline, you know, about
how do we help you become aproductive member of society?
That's not new in the sense ofit started, you know, five years
ago, but it is new.
In the sense that it started50ish years ago, 70ish years
ago, that's a, that's a, an atomof a, of a drop in the ocean of
(26:07):
time that we've been on theplanet and, and evolved as human
beings.
And disengagement at theworkplace in schools and all
around there's no mystery to it.
Human beings aren't designed to,to, to attach to some extern you
know, external set of tasks.
To repeat them 50, 000 times andthen die.
And be happy in the process.
(26:28):
That's not, that's not how we'rebuilt.
It's how machines built andit's, it's, it's, it's what
society actually wants.
It's what, you know, withoutrealizing it, you know,
organizations and schools, canwe all just be machines, please
make it easier.
And there's a group of really,really scary folks at the very
high end of tech.
We're going to introduce AIbecause we haven't done it in a
while.
(26:48):
Who are are, you know, semivocal about Yeah, yeah, we're,
we're, we need to move on to thenext life form.
You know which is a nonbiological life form.
Because we're all just messyand, and emotional and
illogical.
Sam (27:01):
I feel like no one goes into teaching or educating
because they hate teaching.
But I think the problem is thatlike Lesson plans and all of
those things and curriculum isgreat It gives us like kind of
like the scaffolding to startbuilding things but we don't
really let teachers do like thecreative things that they're
good at like There are teacherswho would create really fun
creative activities or just trysomething new And maybe it's a
(27:23):
full flop.
Like maybe they made an entirelike Puppet show on how to
explain history, but and itflopped, you know, but they're
never given that chance Butthey're also not given the
support either, you know You'realone in a classroom and maybe
there's a student who needsextra support But you can't
reach out and support thatstudent or maybe you come from
like a place where like the waythese students the places These
students are coming from isreally rough and you also grew
(27:44):
up rough But you can't expressthat because it's always this
idea of like how a student comesin is either good or bad You're
teachable or you're not Eitheryou're prepared or you're not
either life prepared you ordidn't And I feel like there's a
lot of teachers who are tryingto combat that but they're not
really given the space toexplore That for themselves like
they're not given professionaldevelopment.
They're not given time off toexplore They're not given time
(28:05):
to just change the way theyteach subjects.
It's it's very rigid and I thinkthat's the problem is like I'll
never forget the biggest historylesson.
I ever got was this teacher.
He loved history I think he gota phd in history and he came and
they told him he wanted to be aprofessor like no go teach high
school And he was teaching usabout, I think it was like World
War I or World War II.
And he came, he would come inthe military uniforms.
(28:26):
He would come in the militaryuniforms, this man would jump on
the tables and like, like yellabout how, like, this whole
thing was.
And the biggest thing that hitme, and this changed my life,
was he would, he was talkingabout like, like, like the human
suffering that happened, right?
When, like, the Nazis came, and,and he, he handed out these,
like, these different wallets,and we were feeling them, right?
And he's, like, talking to usabout it, and he goes, you know,
like, During the war, he'sgiving us the lecture on how
(28:47):
we're all feeling this wallet,and he's just like, One of the
scariest things that happenedduring this war was like, They
killed people and made theirskin into wallets.
And what you're holding rightnow is that, And I don't know if
it was real, I don't know if itwasn't, I could have been fully
faking just a leather wallet,But that process really hit me
that like, Like, that's real.
It made that real.
I wasn't just listening to alecture and it made me kind of
(29:08):
think about like, wow, I neverwant this to happen again.
I should care more abouthistory.
Like this really mattered to me.
And he did that with everythingwhere it was like either we were
talking about like wars, we weretalking about policies, we were
talking about how it affectedpeople.
And then the next semester hewas like, all right, cool.
We're going to learn about eachother.
So go out.
Go experience something andteach about it.
(29:30):
So me and my friend went to gosee the Harlem Globetrotters and
we came back and we taught aboutit.
And then we all went to collegesand we talked about what it was
like to go like see thesecolleges and why we picked them.
And like I learned so much inthis class, not only from like
prehistory to modern history,but it meant a lot to me to
learn that.
And I think that's, that'ssomething we're not talking
about.
I was like, there are theseteachers who have amazing
(29:50):
tactics of amazing things tobring, but we're not giving them
the forum.
So talk to other people who alsocare about these things.
It's, it's, it's, it's a lot.
a.m. (29:58):
It's Sam, you're raising a, it's so easy to overlook when
you get access to it.
Like, like you're, you're,you're describing me in the grad
school, like 20 years ago when Istarted teaching in, in, in the
grad psych program.
Like what I teach is so off theradar.
Like it is so like inappropriatein the sense of this isn't what,
you IO psych program.
But I had the benefit of thewoman who ran the program
(30:21):
trusted me.
Said, you know, I had known meand said, I get it.
You're going to do weird stuff.
Don't hurt the students, givethem value, and then we'll
reassess after a year, you knowwhat I mean?
And so that freedom to do weirdstuff, right?
And so, you know, 20 years ago,you get grad students in, in the
org psych reading Carse, readingthe Tao Te Ching as context for
(30:43):
talking about organizationalchange and stuff that just, you
know, just should not have beenallowed, right?
Doing linguistics theory and allthis stuff and then over time it
becomes oh, yeah enough, youknow, evidence shows up Oh, this
actually works like students arereally excited about this and
they're having applications,right?
And then it getsinstitutionalized but but that
risk for that administrator Totell that teacher, whether it's
(31:03):
in high school or grad school orwherever, you know, the risk of
that director telling thatmanager in the department yeah,
feel free to throw away theplaybook.
Just make sure you don't hurtthe employees or the business
and make sure you generatevalue.
A big risk for that person totake.
And Tara, Tara LaRue, shout outto Dr.
Tara LaRue, one of my favoritehumans on the planet.
The risk that Tara took and justsaying, yeah, just do what you
(31:25):
want.
We're going to, we're just goingto, you know, let you kind of
put you in a box is massivebecause there's no incentive
where no one's going to pat heron the back.
You know, it's all downside andit has to proceed from, she has
to be engaged.
She has to care more about thestudents than the system.
And obviously have trust in meand vet all that Right.
The systems are designed to, andagain, for all the talk about
(31:45):
innovation and all this.
Our systems are designed topunish innovation to make it far
too risky to do.
Kyley (31:51):
This conversation has gotten very timely for me,
because I'm trying to figurethat out as a director who's
trying to make sure that thespace is fluid for people to try
their stuff and do their things,but also, no one's going to get
hurt.
And it is one of the biggestchallenges I've experienced here
before.
a.m. (32:08):
be prepared for it.
Kyley (32:09):
Yeah, well, yeah, and I think for me, is like, Getting
to that point of trusting thatyou understand what, how, do you
know now how, how not to letstudents get hurt?
Like, can I leave you in a roomand you're going to make sure
everybody gets out safely?
Like, I don't know.
That's, that's, that's what I'mworking on right now is how do
(32:30):
we, how do we figure that out asan organization?
So I can be like, okay, cool.
All the number looks good.
Go for it.
Do whatever it is you got to do.
And then stuck on it right now.
a.m. (32:40):
I was having lunch yesterday with Shelly, the head
of the International Festival ofArts and Ideas, about, you know,
maybe some collaborating onthings.
And you know, we're talkingabout just, just running a non
profit and, you know.
And I said, you know, I try todesign things I can walk away
from but that will sustain,right?
And she said yeah, that'stricky.
How the hell do you do that?
Like, when do you know when topull back?
I said, I don't know.
But what you do is, and nowwe're in a meta conversation.
(33:02):
Kyley has actually experiencedthe other side of this.
You know, I'll share what I'mdoing and I'll just keep doing
it.
It is, you find things that areout of the group's depth, but
that aren't going to blow up thebusiness.
And then you become unavailablewhen they need to get done have
to and they have to figure itout.
Kyley (33:21):
Yeah.
a.m. (33:21):
Right?
And you you
Kyley (33:25):
Yep.
a.m. (33:25):
and they figure it out.
And if it goes wrong, it's notgoing to blow up the business.
All right.
But the fifth ring on that, ifyou'd done on the first string,
it would have blown up thebusiness.
And so you just keep like notbeing available for more and
more critical things.
And, and assuming you've donethe pre work of having people
who are actually engaged andcommitted, that's, you know,
(33:46):
that's, that's, that's the jazzof the thing, I think, of, of,
of, you know, managing this wayor leading this way, at least
that's one way of it.
But again, it's delicate.
There's no guarantees.
There's all risk, you know?
And so discerning like, is thisperson actually engaged?
Is this team actually engaged?
They're going to, you know,actually care about the
business, the company, thestudents first and foremost you
(34:07):
know, the mission, you know andI don't mean in a negative way,
like, like they're not, likethey don't care, but like
there's a depth, there's a,there's an ownership level
engagement and then there's aexecution level engage, right?
And so I was like, is there anownership level engagement?
And then, okay, cool.
How do I let, it go?
How do I become unavailable?
And they got to figure it out.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Kyley (34:24):
I was on to you.
I've been on to you for like ayear and a half now.
Yeah.
The the like, yes, 48 hoursafter a critical question has
been asked, it's like, yep, I,I, I see a pattern here.
Yeah.
No, it, it's, though stressful,it's working.
And I've learned a lot.
a.m. (34:39):
Well, and don't you do this with students though,
right?
Because you say, I learned alot.
You learn so much more in thosesituations than if you got the
answers and internalize theanswer.
Because now, that prescribedanswer is my crutch.
At the end of this kind ofexperience, I am the crutch.
Right?
I know I can rely on myself andthe people around me for this.
Kyley (34:59):
That's one of the things that I see this year that is
challenging for me is I don'tsee as much of that in students.
I don't know where it is yet,where the key thing, I think
part of it is having, havingthat circle be significantly
smaller with, with new staffwho've come in and don't, don't
totally get what's going onabout it.
They're basically getting caughtup as the students get caught
(35:21):
up.
And so But like with our, oursecond year students.
Yeah.
Like the product developmentteam.
Yeah.
They barely talk to me.
,and I'm like, this is wild.
We check in every couple weeksand they're like, this is what
I'm doing.
I'm like, okay.
That's great.
a.m. (35:35):
Sort of education as incubator.
Yeah.
Right.
like they're just incubatingtheir own learning and, and a
valuable product that they'regonna launch at the end of it.
Kyley (35:41):
Yeah.
Scott (35:42):
One thing I've seen as an observer is students presenting
at the end of every semester orsometimes more frequently, They
Not prepared.
You know, I have no preparation.
No idea.
Like, Oh, today's that present?
And they do their presentation.
They might have a few hiccups.
Maybe they're You know, they'renot projecting or they're not
enunciating, but all the rest ofthe students Or modeling what
(36:02):
the instructors are doing, whatthe educators are doing and
supporting them And saying, Oh,you're building this here.
This is how I did it on mineafterwards and getting them to
the next step because they're,you know They haven't talked to
them during program, but Theysee their presentation and like,
I've already done that.
Let me show you how I did it.
And that was just like, Oh,they're totally modeling what
you folks do you know, with themwhen they're trying to find
(36:25):
something that works for them.
I wish there was a way I couldcollapse that into something
that's, you know, beginning,middle and end easily.
But it's pretty interesting tosee.
Sam (36:35):
like, you're speaking to something that I've been
thinking about for a while,which is like, just this like
idea of like scaffolding, whichis like, just like building
situations where that canhappen, but like slowly over
time.
And like, I've had like a coupleeducators come up to me and be
like, why are the students justlike, they just don't like, they
don't seem to like want to workon their own.
They always ask her questions.
Like, Well, if you sit someonedown after coming from school
(36:56):
where you're told what to doevery five minutes, like you
have to raise your hand to go tothe bathroom, then you're told
you transfer to a space whereit's like, figure it out.
Do you really think that's goingto work in retrospect?
Probably not.
But if you scaffold it in such away, it's like, right.
Maybe they watch the videos, yousit there and help them.
Then the next time you like stepback a little more and you step
back a little more until at somepoint they're able to do it on
(37:17):
their own.
Yeah.
That's scaffolding.
Like you're building that intothe process.
Like if you build that into yourprocess, it would absolutely
work, but you can't expect themto just get it right away.
Like you've been in this for awhile.
Like you have no idea what it'slike to not know coding.
You have no idea what it's notlike like what it's like to have
a second language and try tofigure this out at the Same time
like a lot of these studentsLike i'll be talking about
(37:38):
college like that's a thing.
I'm like, yeah, it's absolutelya thing if you want some help
email me, let's figure that out,you know, but a lot of our
educators come from a techbackground not an education
background and scaffolding isnot something that's Easily
understood not even at thecollege level and I think one of
the difficulties you're runninginto is like how do you build
that in such a way where itdoesn't You Burn somebody,
including the educatedthemselves.
(37:58):
And then kind of what to am wasspeaking about and, and Scott
was speaking about you know, howdo build that like excitement
and ambition for someone whomight be burnt out or may not
like, you know, if you comefrom, like, I build my own apps
all the time.
So now I got to teach them andmake an app.
I'm teaching the same thingevery time.
You know, how do you build thatambition?
And I think that's what we'retrying to figure out right now.
Kyley (38:17):
100 percent agree.
Yeah, and I appreciate your andKay's approach in this most
recent thing because it seemslike some more of that
scaffolding has been happening.
It seems successful for thestudents who are in that program
right now.
I have this silly idea orambition is to take the whole
education team out of the woodsand make them build stuff with
sticks and rocks, just likefully outside the tech space,
like, what's, what do you careabout?
Here's sticks and rocks.
Make something just to give likethe context of going into a
(38:39):
whole new, like, vehicle forcreation.
And then how do you, becauselike, that's what these
students, some of these studentsare doing, like, computer
science sounds cool.
I don't know anything about it.
I don't know the last time Kayand Mo has been, like, actually
confused by a technical project.
Like, they, they do it.
They know how to do it.
They, they got the process down.
How do you step out of that andbe like, this is what the
(38:59):
experience is like.
A whole new medium.
Probably not sticks and rocks,but something like that.
Something, something outsidethere.
a.m. (39:06):
it's a an analog analog of digital
Kyley (39:09):
yeah, yeah.
yeah.
yeah.
Scott (39:10):
I think the carving, you know, bowls and spoons might be
a good idea.
Sure,
a.m. (39:14):
I would love to have the, bandwidth capacity.
And again, as we mature withfunders and they get more and
more, you know trust in the kindof results we're generating.
I would love to have like, likeour summers, for example you
know, you're starting theprogram in September, but
actually you're going to startin August and the month of
August is not here.
It's, it's, it's at a camp inessence.
(39:34):
And we're working on all of the.
Human development, foundationalstuff, the community stuff, the
interpersonal stuff, the, all ofthat, like that, that sure,
because that's our groundingnow.
We just have to do it in bitsand pieces.
But if we can have even a twoweek retreat, the summer camp
that starts it off.
And then September you come inand start working on the thing.
It'd be amazing.
Sam (39:55):
When I was president of this club, something like, I ran
into that same issue where a lotof my executives were like, they
were just always at odds.
Like they just would be like,why can't you get this budget
done?
The treasurer would be like, youdon't understand what I'm going
through.
Meanwhile me who's helping allof them, it's like they're both
right and they're both wrong.
So something that I did is tokind of alleviate it was I was
like, all right, now you all aregonna be in each other's shoes.
And this is going to be awilling choice.
(40:16):
So what we did was we startedoff small, which was like, it
was this thing called writingthe meeting notes.
We would have to write, someonewould always have to write the
meeting notes.
And so each team member andtheir chief of staff, where they
were training, we'd put them onthe board and we'd spin it,
including me.
So like, even me who would havethe most work, I could spin it
and end up on the board.
Right.
And something I foundinteresting is there would be a,
and the more work you did or theless work you did, your, your
(40:37):
slice would get bigger orsmaller.
So you could see how everyonewas doing work.
Right.
And there would be, there wasone time where our treasury team
got it three times in a row.
Had the most work, got it threetimes in a row.
We could not figure out what wasgoing on.
And it was really interesting tosee because of this process we
were doing.
Other teams were like, no, I'llhelp you.
Oh, no.
No, I'll got it.
Like the I wouldn't even sayanything Might you have stuff
say I'll have it.
I was like, did you justvolunteer our team?
(40:57):
What?
Oh, okay Like and it was reallyinteresting to see that this is
like something they enjoyed likethey enjoyed coming to meetings
And then I would also pull backlike, okay, I'm not gonna run
the meeting this time like todayI'm gonna hand it over to the
vice president team We're gonnahand it to a treasury team or
you're each gonna get yoursections You're in charge of
these pieces of yourself.
Like they're just small.
I'm aware of it.
Each thing is I know what eachthing does You but I want to
(41:18):
give you ownership of that andjust seeing them get excited
about it, seeing them get up andpresent these things.
And then even in like our, ourwork, like the way we got some
of these executives was, I mean,this thing was like a term
Tuesday.
We would just teach about aterm.
No, it's called T Tuesday.
It's LGBT.
That's what we called it.
LGBT.
We just spill the tea aboutstuff.
And we would get two new membersand we just, I would tell them
like, here's the slideshow.
(41:39):
It's already done.
Everything's in there.
Present it.
I don't care how you do it.
And at the end, we'll talk aboutit.
And I remember the way that ourentire executive team started
from that one moment, becausetwo of them did it.
They were super nervous.
They were just like going crazy.
Just talking, talking, talking,talking.
That was horrible.
And then our treasurer showed upthe next day.
We didn't know he was ourtreasurer yet.
And he was like, y'all justseemed cool.
Became our treasurer after thatended up speaking at during
(42:02):
graduation.
And it was literally becausethese two people, I was just
like, figure it out.
Good luck.
You have everything you need.
There's no messing up.
You can't mess up.
Of course you can, I just didn'ttell them that.
But I think that's likesomething that Like this
organization is is figuring outis maybe we don't need to go in
the woods and build stakesbecause i'm not gonna do and
build stakes because I'm notgonna do Because no
Kyley (42:23):
not building sticks, we're building with sticks.
Sam,
a.m. (42:26):
love the clarity and
Sam (42:28):
Listen, I just, I, I am for not doing Jenga in the woods
a.m. (42:33):
I, I was imagining more like a retreat, like a
Kyley (42:36):
Nah, we're all building our own shelters outta sticks
and leaves.
What
Sam (42:39):
what I don't trust is Kyley not to be, to be like, oh, we're
going a resort.
And then he pulls out a bunch oftents.
a.m. (42:44):
no, we're not we're not putting
Sam (42:45):
Yeah.
My
a.m. (42:46):
the
Kyley (42:46):
carry a
Sam (42:48):
big boots like, oh yeah, this is not made for
a.m. (42:52):
no, no no good.
I, Can you imagine the story youjust told can you imagine a a
corporate DEI officer?
Trying to do this With the kindof nonsense constraints and the
risk aversion and the, all thethings they have to get right
and all the things they can'tget wrong at just, and then
again, we want, it's likeinnovation, like diversity is
(43:13):
like innovation.
Like we, they talk about it, Ithink they're sincere and
they're blind to the fact thatthe entire design of the system,
the hyper preparation againstrisk blocks anything real like
this from actually happening.
Sam (43:26):
I I, think that's just 'cause they don't ask the right
questions.
Like it's always like, ideascome from the top and not the
inside.
Mm-Hmm.
Like, it's always this wholething of like, how do we stop
gun violence?
And it's like, all of thesepolicy educators are like, how
do we stop gun violence?
I was like, I don't know, gointo the school and don't go to
the kid and be like, How do westop gun violence?
That kid's gonna look at youlike, what do you mean?
I don't know, that's your job.
(43:46):
If you just go like, what wouldyou do to make this place safer?
What steps do you think someonecould take tomorrow?
What steps do you think someonecould take in the next month?
I promise you that kid would belike, Oh, that's easy.
Do this and this and this andthis and this.
There's so many of our studentsthat come in here like, the
educators did this, this wouldget fixed.
And it's not big wants.
It's not big needs.
Sometimes it's just like, justprovide lunch
Kyley (44:04):
We love to have nice bathrooms.
Sam (44:06):
Yeah, it's like, it's stuff like that, but like, where do
you create the forums or thespace for that to happen?
And this is, somebody broughtthis up to me recently about my
college.
It was like, what is it like tobe an LGBT student?
I was like, listen, I love, Ilove administrators, I DEI
people, but I love when you comein, you're like, here's my role,
here's what I do, here's how Ican help you, what can I do to
fix it?
And these students are lookingat you like you have five heads,
(44:27):
cause they've never been in thisspace before.
You didn't train them to behere, you didn't train them to
be able to ask those questions.
Maybe some of them do, but notall of them.
So like, what experience arethey getting out of this other
than making you look good?
And that's my problem.
And I think that we're notreally making space for like,
Not necessarily just oureducators, but educators in
general and students to be ableto speak to this stuff where
(44:48):
it's like, here's what I need,here's what I want, here's what
I see wrong.
I'm not expecting this all toget fixed, but if you want my
perspective on it, here's myperspective.
Like, that's it.
a.m. (44:56):
It's such a hassle though, man.
It's like a lot to manage.
Do we have to.
Sam (45:00):
Yes! Yes, you have to! If you care about the thing, yes!
a.m. (45:04):
sitting here in the seat it it's like, you know, I got to
deal with that complexity and Ihear you with that.
That's the stuff we got to do.
And even for us, I think we'redecent at it.
And I have no doubt we can get10 times better.
Kyley (45:15):
A hundred percent.
Well, yeah, and that's, andthat's, that's what I'm
actively, consistently thinkingabout, is like, how do you have
enough structure that things aresafe?
But, The ability to actuallymove at the speed of student.
Because if you're like, Hey, Iwant chicken nuggets and we're
like, we'll roll out chickennuggets in May.
Why am I requesting anything?
You know, like the ability tonot be able to make change
(45:36):
meaningfully happen.
makes those conversations a mootpoint, like you're just
screaming into a void.
Sam (45:40):
I don't think it does.
I disagree respectfully as aperson who's been in that
position.
If you walked me through whatyou are doing to get me to
there, and why it's coming inMay, I'm not gonna be mad.
If you tell me, I hear you.
The process that happens next iswe're going to do this and this
and you keep me informed on howthat's happening.
I am not going to be mad at thatbecause I am aware that you're
making the change.
You're showing me that processactively and you're making me a
(46:02):
part of that process.
I think that's fair and I thinkthat's what we need.
a.m. (46:06):
also want to offer a disclaimer to the listeners that
the chicken nuggets wereprovided the very following
week.
Kyley (46:11):
I now, I now have a juice proposal on my desk.
a.m. (46:13):
Well, listen.
And, and, and I, and I said tothat young man, because he, he
caught me as I was living oneday.
He said, can we, can we getjuice?
I was like, you can have like 50flavors of juice.
Here's the design problem thatyou have to work on.
Yeah.
Said we have lots of softseating here because we wanna
give you all lots of options forhow to sit.
when we first started, we hadjuice and, and, and, you know,
lemonade and things like that.
(46:34):
And all these couches got reallysticky and they're really
impossible to clean.
So, work, work with yourcolleagues, work with your
fellow students, figure out howdo we have sticky sugary stuff
in here that doesn't destroycomputers?
Because water and computers, wecan fix juice and computers.
We can't and, and you know, the,the thing, so this is your
space, you know, they, theyknow, right.
So design around that issue andyou can have any beverage you
(46:56):
want, non alcoholic, obviously.
Non caffeinated, too.
Marginally caffeinated.
I don't want to send them homeat
Kyley (47:03):
I fully serve them caffeinated tea sometimes.
With I was like, disclaimer.
a.m. (47:07):
Well, but that's a marginal amount of you know,
They're not gonna drink a gallonof green tea, you
Kyley (47:11):
Mountain Dew.
a.m. (47:12):
Yeah, Mountain Dew is a
Scott (47:13):
different
a.m. (47:13):
you know, issue, right?
Yeah, I don't want to send themhome at seven o'clock at night,
you know.
Sam (47:18):
yeah.
Building the tech bros early.
a.m. (47:20):
God help us.
Yeah, let's, let's, let's end onTech pros and, and, and and a, a
collective prayer that we neverhatch any of them.
Kyley (47:26):
Mm hmm.
Sam (47:27):
looking right at K,
a.m. (47:28):
Yeah.
Right.
I don't think TK is
Kyley (47:30):
Kay.
Sam (47:30):
he's living off of ice, tea and Dreams.
Dreams
a.m. (47:33):
Yeah.
yeah,
Kyley (47:34):
So Kay.
He acts like a tech pro, but Kayalso has a deep seated
humanistic mission to what heworks on.
a.m. (47:41):
This it K Kay's not a tech bro to me, like what I consider
a tech bro, right?
Like Kay is a, a deep.
I don't know.
How would I say it?
You know, he's a tech
Kyley (47:49):
Sure.
Like he Yeah.
Scott (47:50):
wants to understand.
He leads with altruism.
He
a.m. (47:54):
help.
Yeah.
How it
Scott (47:55):
I can
a.m. (47:56):
The the tech bros are you know, like like all the other
flavors of bros are all about,you know, kind of conquest and
progress
Scott (48:03):
for progress
a.m. (48:04):
and killing it and and and hustling and Like just no
humanity to it at all.
Just just it's all just someversion of a sport How do we
move ten yards further, bro?
And then slam something And highfive
Kyley (48:20):
to take it back three steps, I appreciate your
perspective, Sam.
And I think that actually clearsup a lot of stuff for me on a
way to approach it.
So I wanted to call that out.
The One concern is that we haveto be accountable quickly for
students and the idea that wecould, I do want to include them
in the process, but it's justsuch a messy thing sometimes,
but making an easy, simple wayto kind of work through that
(48:40):
could be really helpful.
Sam (48:41):
Yeah, I think a lot of people don't realize is like
because like I'll be honest likeI was a person who requested
something like That I I arguefor an LGBT center.
It took me Four years to getthat.
I was never mad about it becauseI was included in the process I
was there when they were hiringand they were like, yeah, it
might be around here We haven'thit there yet, but just letting
you know or hey, just as areminder We're still working on
(49:04):
it and it's been messy.
You know, there's a lot ofpolitics stuff that goes on It's
it's really difficult But like Icould see the honest humanistic
perspective that they caredabout me And that's what
mattered to me more thananything.
And I think a lot of peopledon't realize is like when
people ask for change, I don'tthink they're expecting it
tomorrow.
They just want to know that youcare and you're working with
them to get there.
a.m. (49:23):
What you just said there and acknowledging the
contribution Sam made to to youknow Some stuff you're thinking
about there.
I'll share with you last night.
Driving, back late.
I hopped onto clubhouse and youknow a couple of friends that
were on and so just you know alittle social kind of room and
one of them said oh I've beenmeaning to tell you I've been
listening to your podcast andand I think it's just so amazing
that that you do your like likestaff meetings You Like,
(49:45):
publicly like, that.
like, holy shit, that is Like,we're, we're, we're, we're, I
mean, obviously these aren't theonly, you know, conversations we
have.
But, but so much of this, wejust kind of like, just, like
what you just did, like, it'sjust a very practical, this is
how we engage, and it neveroccurred to me that showing up
to people potentially as, you'relistening in on a staff meeting,
Scott (50:05):
which in part you are.
a.m. (50:07):
Like, this This is our more conceptual, one of our more
conceptual kind of spaces forconversation to keep the thing
alive and moving and growing andevolving.
Kyley (50:14):
One thing I also, also show is just a, how like deep
level of commitment in our liveswhere like, no matter where we
Scott (50:21):
start,
Kyley (50:23):
where we end up.
Well, how how does it it workfor the kids?
Yeah.
How does it work for us stuff?
Sam (50:28):
I had it over when one of my former co workers was like,
Hey, I was listening to thatpodcast you talked about our
prior workplace.
Have them sign me on.
I was like, I would never dothat.
I don't trust to do it within aninch of my life.
And he's like, you're doinggreat.
I was like, stay out of it.
Scott (50:43):
Oh, we got on the phone right now.
a.m. (50:45):
that's fine.
Oh, I'm on, I'm
Sam (50:47):
If all I heard was, Carlos is here, I'd be like, run.
Just, no.
a.m. (50:51):
I've been toying with I I, we, I haven't looked at the
metrics.
We haven't talked about themetrics in a while.
But, but, but I, I feel likethere's enough regular folks at
this point.
I, I was toying with the idea atsome point when we have the
bandwidth for maybe like earlypart of summer or something,
that we try one of these liveactually.
there are some folks who areregulars who I, I think would,
if the timing were right, woulddefinitely kind of jump in.
Kyley (51:11):
Do you want to start with questions?
We'll start with writtenquestions that we can filter
before we go into full on, justsay whatever you want on air?
yeah, that's exactly
Sam (51:19):
exactly right.
I can only imagine Kay.
I am so glad you asked aboutcrypto
Kyley (51:24):
Yeah.
Then they get to see our, ourbeautiful space and all the, all
the all the comfort that we haveon here.
Sam (51:30):
Yeah.
Yeah.
we're one place, It's likecloser to becoming gaming bros.
Woo.
a.m. (51:35):
All you out there, we don't mean to offend you.
You are welcome to come in andhave some tea.
If you're willing to kind of,you know, hang and explore a
different perspective.
Scott (51:47):
No, no chicken nuggets for the tech bros though.
Kyley (51:49):
Mean, let's say write a proposal.
Sam (51:50):
Mountain Dews must be left at the door.
I will be taking them.
Thank you.
So I didn't send out a topic and so if you're up for
it, I think that's the topic isbeing sort of being prepared
versus, you know, it, it, itit's not a new thought for me,
but, you know, like I, I am.
So good In situations where i'mcompletely unprepared like just
improvising just whatever it islike, you know, whether it's a
(02:04):
like a public speaking event orin front of a classroom or
Whatever like if there's acrisis it's part of what would
build the career right?
It's just there's a crisis goingon cool Follow me, like it just,
you know, kind of figuring itout in the, in the moment.
Part of that is just, just, I'msure, you know, adaptation
survival skill from how I grewup, you know, just kind of
getting thrown around a lot.
And, and these kind ofcompletely foreign situations
(02:27):
where it's like you couldn'thave planned for it if you
wanted to, and you certainlydidn't plan for it.
Figure it out.
You don't speak the language.
You don't know anybody.
Figure it out.
So, you know, maybe it'sadaptation skill.
Maybe it's genetic.
Whatever the thing is.
And I think there are situationswhere preparation is really, you
know, useful, if not critical,but certain types of
preparation.
(02:47):
And so that's the, maybe that'sthe topic, is kind of what's
your relationship topreparation?
Over preparation, underpreparation, non preparation,
and then, you know, maybeimprovising and riffing as a
side topic on that.
He asks the question withoutpreparing anybody.
Kyley (03:03):
I guess my own personal experience with it.
Mm hmm.
For me, it's from my, my, mybase machinery around.
I'm the only one I can rely on,so being prepared for myself is
something that I tend to be goodat.
And when it includes socialnorms, I have a more significant
difficulty.
So like, if the building was onfire, I'd feel super
(03:25):
comfortable.
But if you put me in front of aboard of people to ask me
questions, and there's like somesocial norms I don't understand,
and I didn't wear a tie andeverybody else wore a tie, I'm
gonna have a weird time.
Like, like, there definitely,there are areas of preparation
for me that are easier thanothers.
And I wonder, and one thing forme is like it's similar on the
outside piece, it's similar onthe showing up on time for
(03:47):
stuff, or like the showing ofcare, where like if you come to
a thing and you aren't preparedto engage with that, like you
are showing that you don't careabout it, and that's not
necessarily the true statement,but that's sometimes how I
perceive it.
If you can fake it, cool, if youcan, can swing it and go for it,
fine, but if, if you're, if youshow up and you're not ready for
the conversation.
Or the experience or whatever itis.
You need to go get water andfind your tool belt and check
(04:11):
your phone and whatever and Ihave to wait around for you.
It's it's like the opposite.
It causes harm to the moment forme.
Yeah.
Sam (04:19):
You're talking to a chronically over prepared person
I'm, pretty Kyley could speak tothat if it's like I won't say
anything unless i've likeresearched four different
articles and books on it.
I'm i'm I don't know how to livewithout being prepared I'm not
prepared for this.
a trap
a.m. (04:34):
Yeah.
Kyley (04:35):
That brings up an interesting question, though.
Because, like You are the mostprepared person to have a
conversation about how youprepare because you're the one
who experiences your ownpreparation.
Like, you couldn't be moreprepared for this in some
capacity.
There is an actual question foroutside resources.
It's hey Sam, what'spreparedness for you?
How does that, how do you, howdo you show up in spaces?
Sam (04:57):
Yeah, I think it's just, it's, it's my researcher brain,
like, it's not that I can't,like, if I'm put in front of a
crowd, it's really funny.
I'm the complete opposite.
I, I don't really come preparedfor things.
I just kind of go off a vibe.
So I'm really good.
Like my, my team used to belike, we don't know what to talk
about this.
I was like, just tag me and Igot you.
I could do this like in mysleep.
But I think one thing that Ithink I got out of researching
(05:18):
was like, you can't really eversay anything without the proof.
You don't really, you can'treally talk about like your
process or your data, how yougot to somewhere without proof.
And I think like part of me as aperson realized, like I liked
routine.
I liked being able to speak towhy I did something, how it
worked for me, being able toshow that it worked for me was
really beneficial, but I thinkfor me, the preparedness always
(05:39):
kind of came from the need tovalidate myself to other people,
not necessarily for myself.
I'm a very disorganized person.
The other day I was like, Irolled over and I was like,
where did all these art suppliescame from?
Oh, yeah, I was doing art.
I forgot I was doing that.
And I was like now I gotta getthis clean again Oh, no, cuz my
partner's coming like I can'tsee this.
So it's And I think it just alsocomes from leadership positions
(06:02):
constantly having to prove likewhy you're choosing to make that
choice and not another choice soI think like Being prepared kind
of comes with that social normthing for me, too.
It's it's like How can I speakin a room full of people with
ties if I don't have a tie,unless I have data that proves
why I didn't have the tie, thatway I can speak to that and
prove my worth.
(06:25):
Don't necessarily, you know, putyou in a good place for being
unprepared, but at the sametime, you know, like you were
saying, sometimes, you know,being a subject matter expert in
something and then improvisingon that can be a real, a real
way to communicate somethingdifferent than having, you know,
here's your handouts and
Kyley (06:43):
I'm a bit, but even in how I hear that, like being a
subject matter expert isinherently a kind of
preparation, even though you'reyou're not coming.
You're not, you're not a blankslate coming to this.
You're coming with whatever,however many years of experience
to a thing.
And so in my, I guess myopinion, you are both prepared
and prepared to the point whereyou can now make jazz.
(07:04):
I guess it's, you know, you nowknow the scales, you have the
base of the scales.
You've done this for a while andnow you are prepared enough to
break from strict, rigidexpectations.
a.m. (07:15):
The first blog I ever had back in the early days of, of
blogging, you know, thesethousands, it was called Prepare
for Surprise.
And that's a line from Carse.
And the line is to be trained,is to be prepared against
surprise, to be educated is tobe prepared for surprise.
And so not to say one is betterthan the other.
And so to be trained is to beprepared against a surprise,
(07:38):
meaning that, you know, all thescenarios so well that nothing
can surprise you.
And there are areas where beingprepared against surprise is
really, really useful from themundane of, of, you know, the
person who's making your coffeeat the shop, there's nothing you
can order that they don't knowhow to make.
Unless you're just being weirdfor the sake of being, you know,
(07:58):
just making something up likesome nonsense to mess with them.
I don't know.
But point is like that.
So that's a product of training,right?
They're prepared againstsurprise.
And there's lots of aspects morecomplex than that, but that's a
simple, you know, example to getat where being prepared against
surprise, being trained in thatthing is really useful,
beneficial, valuable, ethical,et cetera.
Right.
But to be educated is to beprepared for a surprise, meaning
(08:20):
that, that your relationshipwith the thing, right, so jazz,
your relationship with the thingis so deep that you're free of
the constraints of knowing andwhat shows up, you can now deal
with that thing as its own wholething.
And so, Sam, I'd say myexperience of you, Even just
indirectly hearing stories aboutIs that actually you you operate
(08:42):
from that place with thestudents, right?
So there's all this preparationyou're bringing but that's not
what's showing up It's dealingwith the student in that, you
know in that moment and makingstuff up in that moment, right?
But that's a different kind ofpreparation it includes the
training preparation but Youhave to be involved You Like, I
have to be there to make jazz,to educate the way we do.
(09:05):
I have to be there to teach aclass.
I don't have to be there.
My mind has to be there.
And all the facts in it, and allthe examples, and all of that
has to be there.
So I can get it all right foryou.
So you can get it right, and Ican tell you you got it right.
Right?
And again, that's notdismissive.
There are areas where that iscritical.
But to educate is a differentkind of development and it
requires you to be there.
(09:26):
You should be at risk, engagedbecause you're, if you're going
to play good jazz, you're goingto make bad notes.
And then you're going to figureout how that bad note gets
transformed into part of thesong.
Kyley (09:36):
Let me know if this takes off on a tangent.
But it made me think of cooking.
I say that because I am at nopoint formally trained to cook.
My food is fine.
There's some stuff I make that'sgood.
There's some stuff I make bad,but my bar for what comes out of
my food is truly like, willpeople generally eat this?
And that wouldn't work if I wasin a restaurant.
(09:57):
Like if I was like, so there isa level of preparation to based
on what your expected outcomeis.
We're like, I make food, I wantit to kind of generally taste
good and include mostly food.
Like, those are the kind of likeimportant boundary conditions
that I have for when I cookstuff.
And my preparation isn't, I gofind a recipe, it's like, what
do I have?
(10:17):
I, this stuff kind of works, wenow have food.
I guess it has a differentdimension because preparation
for a thing is also based onwhat you expect the outcome to
be.
a.m. (10:26):
Yeah, that, that, that, that threshold of, of, you know,
surprise is, is lower,
Kyley (10:30):
Yeah,
a.m. (10:31):
It's just, it's just, it has to be edible,
Kyley (10:33):
Yeah, I want to be able to eat it and generally enjoy
it.
Yeah, fine.
a.m. (10:37):
There's a, sort of shadow side to that where people, you
know nobody in our audience,you're all amazing but people
hear, you know, versions of, andit's, a virus, you know, these
last 15 years with social media,but people hear the other side
of that, the prepared forsurprise, the jazz that, you
know, and it's licensed to,yeah, I'm just going to wing it,
Kyley (10:54):
yeah,
a.m. (10:54):
men and hype women where they got no relationship to the
thing.
And they're gonna come in and,and Oh yeah, let a And they've
like, you know, jumped around to40 different places in six years
and they've never, you know and,and then it's like, I'm good at
improv.
yeah, Yeah, yeah, just tell meyour problem.
I'm, I'm good at, on the fly,making up, like that's, you
know, that's not what we'repointing to,
Kyley (11:12):
Yeah.
a.m. (11:13):
Yeah.
Scott (11:13):
I kind of it takes me immediately to music.
You know, I've been playingbands for years and a lot of
what I end up doing becomes sortof like a muscle memory.
Writing a part and then learningthe part.
Yeah.
And then playing it, you know,on stage or in the studio or
whatever.
One little thing, kind of beingnot right, you know, either the
sound is bad or you're tucked ina corner or there's loud people
(11:35):
and, you know, can really screwup the whole thing that you rely
on, what you're listening to.
So there is that sense of like,all right, I'm going to wing it.
But it is based on the work thathas already been done and you
kind of like modulate yourvolume or performance or
whatever Sometimes I'll juststop and listen and then come
right back in like the next timearound So it's one of those
(11:57):
things where sometimes you justgot to like give yourself space
to get the perspective you knowif everybody has a tie on just
Look at all their ties for a fewminutes and then do your thing
kind of you know the way itfeels to me
a.m. (12:08):
I'm gonna play right now.
And, and just parallel of, of ofwhat you're saying.
In, in, in theater stuff, rightthere, there are folks who will
learn their lines and they'lllearn the blocking, it's like.
cool, I'm doing it.
Kind of not.
You know, you're doing areading.
And there it becomes tougher toimprovise.
And I don't know if that's thecase in music, right?
(12:30):
Where they're just locked intothe script and not paying
attention to the moment andwhat's happening.
And so the thing is correct.
All the words are said in theright order.
They're standing in the rightplace, But there's nothing
actually
Scott (12:42):
the feeling's not there?
a.m. (12:44):
There's nothing because there's no, They're in the
They're not being, they're notbeing surprised.
So this I wanted to get to whereI'm right?
Even in something like, like,like, like, stage work, where
literally your every word isprescribed in advance, your
every footstep is prescribed inadvance for the most part,
right?
Unless something goes wrong.
Even in that.
(13:04):
When it goes really well, it's asurprise.
It's like my own words are asurprise to me.
Your words that I've heard 50times in rehearsals are a
surprise to me because we're inthe moment of the thing.
And then, you know, you can, youcan improvise not changing any
of the words, not changing anyof the steps, but how you say
them each night, how youinteract each night.
It's like a different show andthat's fucking amazing.
(13:24):
Right?
And I'm imagining it's a similarthing in music.
Yeah?
Scott (13:27):
Yeah, it's really, there's so many variables and
it's one of those things where,you know, I get one bad cable
and my setup can ruin the wholething For me, I, you know, I
have to either remove somethingor add something else to
compensate for it.
And it kind of shifts the wholelike, wave thing.
But then once the, once that'sresolved, it's like relaxed into
it again, can happen, but it hasto be resolved, you know, at
(13:50):
some point when it happens.
Kyley (13:52):
take this in a different direction because that's just
the way my brain is workingtoday.
I'm thinking of our students,our high school students in
particular.
All of them are going off tocollege.
or going off to something posthigh school or even building
projects and stuff.
And in a lot of those cases, itseems like preparedness is
almost a blocker.
Like I'm not ready.
(14:13):
I don't have enough.
My, my SAT grades aren't goodenough.
My, I don't have the ideas andfully formalized.
And there is a timeline where adecision has to be made.
And in some ways it seems as ifthe like preparation that
they're doing It's almost in theway of their own success.
And I wonder about that in somecapacity when we're working with
(14:33):
students.
My video game's not ready.
I can't show it to you.
Well, and I don't, I'm notlooking for a final video game.
What do you got?
I can't, I can't do this thing.
I'm not ready.
I don't know enough.
Sam (14:43):
don't think so.
Kyley (14:45):
No, I don't think so.
You may have said it, but Icouldn't give you a description
for it.
Sam (14:50):
you a description for it.
So, for example they gave abunch of students, like, these
candles and a rope, and theywere like, alright, like, figure
out this, like, problem.
I forgot what it was, but theywere like, figure out this
problem.
And the students only saw thecandles, like, doing one thing,
and only the rope doing, like,one thing, and they just
(15:11):
couldn't figure it out.
It was just, like, continually,over and over and over and over
again, until they used it in anunconventional way, a way that
isn't typically used, and a lotof people just got caught.
And so for me, it's funny thatyou mention that, because I went
to a high school that was like,it was an academic high school.
We were prepared to go tocollege.
That was their whole deal.
Like, you had to take even acollege course.
And it was just horrible.
(15:33):
Like, I was really bad at it.
And then I get, like, so manypeople ask me, like, oh, how did
you pick your school?
Like, it seems like you weremeant for the thing you do.
Like, you seem to speak so, andI was like, Man, I want the
honest truth.
I only went to college causethere was some guy I was dating.
I wanted to go to the samecollege as him.
That was it.
Like I didn't, I didn't reallyhave a college in mind.
Cause I was told the same thing.
(15:54):
Like your GPA is not goodenough.
Your bottom rank of your class.
Don't even try.
You're not even worth going tocollege.
So I was like, cool.
I have no purpose.
That's, that's fine.
I'm not prepared not to go tocollege.
I can't figure this out.
I don't know how to take theproper notes.
I'm bad at this.
And we had this like peersuccess coach I was trying to
teach us how to be like goodcollege students and it just
didn't really work for me Likeit just nothing was taking I was
(16:15):
like, yeah, this is just proof.
I'm not meant for college andthere was one professor who was
just like And I forget this islike you could treat life like a
hoop or a portal Like you couldjust jump through the thing over
and over again and get the thingdone kind of what tay i'm
speaking about Just speaking thelines but not with feeling or
you can treat things like aportal like yeah You may not
like the thing but you'll knowwhat you liked and what you
didn't like what you learnedfrom that And I decided to just
(16:36):
take that and run with it.
And so I just turned to theperson next to like, Hey man, I
don't know how to take notes.
I thought I knew how to takenotes.
I don't know how to take notes.
Can I look at your notes?
And they explained to me theirprocess and everything.
I was like, wow, that's reallycool.
So I started running a blog onlike, how to study.
Like, what works for differentpeople.
I started mentoring otherstudents on how to like, learn.
And like, I think something forme that that kind of hammered
this in is like, being preparedreally is a blocker for school
(16:58):
sometimes.
We were in the psychology class.
Psychology 101 class.
And there was a bunch of us onthe left side They kind of
called us like the burnoutsbecause they didn't think we
were good, right?
But when you really looked atus, it was a police officer, a
full time mom Me and anotherstudent and this one girl would
come up to us all the time.
What did you get on your test?
I got a hundred and one becauseI got the bonus point and we
just sit there like, okay We hada little study group.
(17:21):
We'd bring snacks We'd workevery day and I'd sit there and
we'd teach each other like I'dbe in the room.
We'd work on it I'll neverforget that the day she came and
she was sewing, she's like, Oh,I got an 80 on this test.
Every single person I go, well,we got the 101 plus the bonus
point and she just couldn'tunderstand like why we were like
getting so good and she wasn'tdoing great and we're like,
cause you just flew into this.
Like you think you knoweverything, but you're not
(17:42):
listening to your peers.
Your peers have things just fromtheir own life experiences that
they were bringing in.
Like the mom was bringing inabout how like psychology
affected her as a mom and thatwas related to what we're
talking about in that chapter.
The police officer was talkingabout trauma and how we bring
that in and like all of thathelped us.
Because we're connecting tothese real scenarios and we're
preparing together as a groupAnd I agree with you like
there's a blocker because Ithink the community tells you
(18:04):
how to be prepared But I don'treally tell you like At a lot of
colleges, you're just wingingit.
You're not supposed to know whatyou gotta do.
You're not supposed to know whoyou're supposed to be.
You're, you're not this one setthing that's gonna be like a
doctor by the end of this or alawyer by the end of this.
You're gonna change your major acouple times, maybe even five.
That's what I did.
And people are like, oh, you,this was your calling.
I was like, no it wasn't.
I had no idea what I was doing.
(18:26):
I still don't know what I'mdoing and I'll figure it out
when I get there.
It is what it is.
So I, I think that's, I thinkthat's what it is.
That's, that is a blocker.
I think being prepared is notwhat we think it is, and we
should stop labeling it as likecollege is this big thing you've
got to do, like, I'm not sayinggo there and go party and go
have fun, you can absolutely godo that, but go there and
explore who you want to be, evenif your parents are like, you
(18:47):
have to be this thing, you'renot going to be happy if you do
that.
a.m. (18:50):
We've had this conversation in different ways
before in here, but it's, it'sin part what I, what I hear in
this is.
this, this, this horrible thingwe do in the society of, of
collapsing psychology andontology.
And so what I think, what I do,what my skills are is one for
one correlated with who I be.
they're not, they're separatethings.
(19:11):
Yeah.
I have a, I have a, you know Ihave a bad SAT score.
I have a bad grade pointaverage.
I have, you know, whatever it iseven the positive stuff.
I have a high SAT score.
But that's not who I am.
Yeah.
Those are totally differentdomains, but we collapsed them.
Kyley (19:28):
Yeah, what I hear in some of that too is like, you're in
some ways potentially preparingthe wrong way or a way that
isn't useful to you long termbecause like, just because you
can get a good SAT score doesn'tmean you know how to study,
understand information andthink, which is what what what
college really or make decisionsor recourse correct, do any of
(19:49):
those kinds of things that thattruly is important when you get
to doing stuff.
a.m. (19:54):
Well, so, so yes to all that, but, but even deeper,
Kyley, none of those thingsmatter relative to am I content?
Do I feel safe?
Do I belong?
Do I love myself?
All right, you can't plan forthose things and there's no any
scorecard you put to themimmediately ensures an F There
are aspects of life that as soonas you put a scorecard to you've
(20:16):
already failed.
You can't win
Sam (20:18):
Thank you for saying it because I, I'm at this point
where like I am taking collegecourses.
I got special acceptance againstthis capstone.
And I literally have not doneany schoolwork at all.
I just want to drop out.
I love all the stuff I'mlearning, but it's not working
and I was talking with someoneabout like I don't get it.
Like, I love learning, I loveresearching, but I hate this,
and they're like, you hate thegrade, and I was like, that's
(20:38):
the truth, like, I don't want tosubmit an essay so you can tell
me all the things I did wrong,and then assign a grade point
average to it, that makes mefeel like garbage, especially if
there's someone next to me whowas like, yeah, I winged it, and
got a hundred, I'm like, dude,this feels like garbage, like,
maybe you came from a privilegedfamily, I gave you tutoring, and
you understand this conceptbetter than I do, or maybe you
have background experience inthis, like, That frustrates me
and i'm especially frustrated inthis one capstone class I have
(21:01):
because I have background inresearch like I already have a
research project This is threeyears in the making and there
was a student the other day He'slike, I just don't know what i'm
doing I don't feel like i'm goodenough and I got so angry in the
class.
I cut the class off.
I was like no No, you're good atthis thing.
Everyone gets stuck in thatplace We're all confused and
frustrated and we're here tohelp you and if you can't lean
on your community here We failedas a classroom this professor
(21:22):
failed and even my professorshe's worked with me She was
like, yeah sam's right on thislike You know, and I think
that's, that's the problem withschooling is like, I'm so tired
of these grades.
I'm so tired of being assignedlike this worth.
Like I'll never forget.
I got on this paper one time, aprofessor was just like, you're
better than this.
That was the feedback.
You're better than this.
And I got to see, I worked likethree weeks on this paper and I,
(21:43):
I'm not going to say I was thebest writer, but like, God, I
wanted to just cry.
I felt like trash.
And I was like, Oh man, I can'tever do this right.
And then being a part of aclassroom where I was like,
yeah, like, I like how you didthis part.
Push yourself here.
You can do this here.
Like, step out of your comfortzone here.
I learned a lot more.
And I'm realizing like, schooljust really isn't for me.
Not for the fact that I can't doschool.
I'm really good at learning.
(22:04):
I'm really good at explaining.
I'm really good at teaching.
I just hate being told my gradepoint average like trying to go
for a doctor is the most abusivething ever because it's like All
right If you don't get thisgreat point average you go to a
mid Doctor and a mid doctor isnot where you want to be and
like, you know Then you're notput first on the research.
I'm like, what if I just likeWanted to read about it crazy
(22:24):
thought what if I just want towork with people and talk about
what they think about thingscrazy Thought oh, that's not a
thing we do here.
Great.
Why am I here?
a.m. (22:33):
My 80s punk ass would respond to that professor, of,
You're better than that commentto a student.
You know?
Like, it's just horrible, man.
There's this thing that gotlaunched, you know, year in
October, the Dalio FoundationCommission Boston Consulting
Group to do this researchproject.
And they came up with this 119,000 right, 119, 000 disengaged
(22:54):
youth age 14 to 26 inConnecticut, just in
Connecticut.
Right.
And so this past week there's acommission formed.
It's a bunch of mayors from theother cities, all the cities in
Connecticut, and then the headof the Dalio foundation.
And they're, you know, they'relaunching his commission.
And I submitted a video for the,you know, they're looking for
perspectives on people who areworking on this.
Okay.
And, and the message I sent themwas, you know, engagement is
(23:15):
not, how do we get these kidsengaged in the exciting careers
that are out there?
Engagement is not, how do we getthese kids to understand that
they can make money?
Engagement is not, how do we getthese kids excited about
college?
Engagement is not anythingexternal, right?
If you only focus there, allyou're ever going to get is
compliance.
People who will do the thingbecause the carrot is sweet
(23:37):
enough.
And then eventually they'll falloff.
The only thing engagement everis, is engagement with yourself.
And the work with these 119, 000kids is, can we help them get
engaged with themselves?
And then from there, they willtake on whatever they're going
to take on and actually beprepared to take advantage of
all the things that areavailable to them.
You know, and that comment fromthat professor is like, it's
(23:58):
like such a invitation todisengage from yourself.
Well, and, and we do do that intraditional schooling a lot.
It's, it's, you know, putyourself aside.
It's not about your sense of, ofwhy you're here on the planet.
It's about, this is the path toget to Z and these are the X, Y
reasons why you should value Z.
And let me help you convince,you know, help convince you of
(24:19):
that.
Scott (24:20):
Brought back to me when we first started this podcast.
28 episodes ago or somethingthere was a visit from field
trip and teachers came in and Iremember you talking about it
like That that they weredehydrate the teachers
themselves were so dehydratedFrom having to navigate within
the system.
(24:40):
They couldn't They couldn't givethemselves enough empathy to
show that for the kids as wellThat's kind of what it felt like
and then we talked about it alittle bit that way Do you feel
like that?
You You know, the way to engageyouth within the systems that we
have now is to sort of startground up and sort of, you know,
re, re educate the educators onsome level and like, is there a
(25:02):
middle ground?
Is there external?
a.m. (25:03):
know how to disengage person engages.
Yeah, I mean, it helps othersget engaged.
Like you look at, you know,again, the secret sauce for is
and always has been in thisplace in previous places.
It's the people.
It's, you know, Sam and Kyleyengage with the students day to
day.
Yeah.
And we've had, you know, we'vehad misses, you know, not bad
people, but folks who justweren't engaged at that level.
(25:24):
They say, oh, I thought this wasa job.
No, it's not a job.
There's a job, there's pay,there's all these things, but
that's, you know.
And, and, and so yeah, I thinkthat's it.
And I, I think it's easy to bashteachers and say they're not
doing a good job.
But exactly right.
They're, they're, theythemselves are dehydrated.
Who's, who's helping them getengaged in that intrinsic way?
You know the whole thing isturned into this bureaucratic
(25:45):
machine that is all about thetalent pipeline, you know, about
how do we help you become aproductive member of society?
That's not new in the sense ofit started, you know, five years
ago, but it is new.
In the sense that it started50ish years ago, 70ish years
ago, that's a, that's a, an atomof a, of a drop in the ocean of
(26:07):
time that we've been on theplanet and, and evolved as human
beings.
And disengagement at theworkplace in schools and all
around there's no mystery to it.
Human beings aren't designed to,to, to attach to some extern you
know, external set of tasks.
To repeat them 50, 000 times andthen die.
And be happy in the process.
(26:28):
That's not, that's not how we'rebuilt.
It's how machines built andit's, it's, it's, it's what
society actually wants.
It's what, you know, withoutrealizing it, you know,
organizations and schools, canwe all just be machines, please
make it easier.
And there's a group of really,really scary folks at the very
high end of tech.
We're going to introduce AIbecause we haven't done it in a
while.
(26:48):
Who are are, you know, semivocal about Yeah, yeah, we're,
we're, we need to move on to thenext life form.
You know which is a nonbiological life form.
Because we're all just messyand, and emotional and
illogical.
Sam (27:01):
I feel like no one goes into teaching or educating
because they hate teaching.
But I think the problem is thatlike Lesson plans and all of
those things and curriculum isgreat It gives us like kind of
like the scaffolding to startbuilding things but we don't
really let teachers do like thecreative things that they're
good at like There are teacherswho would create really fun
creative activities or just trysomething new And maybe it's a
(27:23):
full flop.
Like maybe they made an entirelike Puppet show on how to
explain history, but and itflopped, you know, but they're
never given that chance Butthey're also not given the
support either, you know You'realone in a classroom and maybe
there's a student who needsextra support But you can't
reach out and support thatstudent or maybe you come from
like a place where like the waythese students the places These
students are coming from isreally rough and you also grew
(27:44):
up rough But you can't expressthat because it's always this
idea of like how a student comesin is either good or bad You're
teachable or you're not Eitheryou're prepared or you're not
either life prepared you ordidn't And I feel like there's a
lot of teachers who are tryingto combat that but they're not
really given the space toexplore That for themselves like
they're not given professionaldevelopment.
They're not given time off toexplore They're not given time
(28:05):
to just change the way theyteach subjects.
It's it's very rigid and I thinkthat's the problem is like I'll
never forget the biggest historylesson.
I ever got was this teacher.
He loved history I think he gota phd in history and he came and
they told him he wanted to be aprofessor like no go teach high
school And he was teaching usabout, I think it was like World
War I or World War II.
And he came, he would come inthe military uniforms.
(28:26):
He would come in the militaryuniforms, this man would jump on
the tables and like, like yellabout how, like, this whole
thing was.
And the biggest thing that hitme, and this changed my life,
was he would, he was talkingabout like, like, like the human
suffering that happened, right?
When, like, the Nazis came, and,and he, he handed out these,
like, these different wallets,and we were feeling them, right?
And he's, like, talking to usabout it, and he goes, you know,
like, During the war, he'sgiving us the lecture on how
(28:47):
we're all feeling this wallet,and he's just like, One of the
scariest things that happenedduring this war was like, They
killed people and made theirskin into wallets.
And what you're holding rightnow is that, And I don't know if
it was real, I don't know if itwasn't, I could have been fully
faking just a leather wallet,But that process really hit me
that like, Like, that's real.
It made that real.
I wasn't just listening to alecture and it made me kind of
(29:08):
think about like, wow, I neverwant this to happen again.
I should care more abouthistory.
Like this really mattered to me.
And he did that with everythingwhere it was like either we were
talking about like wars, we weretalking about policies, we were
talking about how it affectedpeople.
And then the next semester hewas like, all right, cool.
We're going to learn about eachother.
So go out.
Go experience something andteach about it.
(29:30):
So me and my friend went to gosee the Harlem Globetrotters and
we came back and we taught aboutit.
And then we all went to collegesand we talked about what it was
like to go like see thesecolleges and why we picked them.
And like I learned so much inthis class, not only from like
prehistory to modern history,but it meant a lot to me to
learn that.
And I think that's, that'ssomething we're not talking
about.
I was like, there are theseteachers who have amazing
(29:50):
tactics of amazing things tobring, but we're not giving them
the forum.
So talk to other people who alsocare about these things.
It's, it's, it's, it's a lot.
a.m. (29:58):
It's Sam, you're raising a, it's so easy to overlook when
you get access to it.
Like, like you're, you're,you're describing me in the grad
school, like 20 years ago when Istarted teaching in, in, in the
grad psych program.
Like what I teach is so off theradar.
Like it is so like inappropriatein the sense of this isn't what,
you IO psych program.
But I had the benefit of thewoman who ran the program
(30:21):
trusted me.
Said, you know, I had known meand said, I get it.
You're going to do weird stuff.
Don't hurt the students, givethem value, and then we'll
reassess after a year, you knowwhat I mean?
And so that freedom to do weirdstuff, right?
And so, you know, 20 years ago,you get grad students in, in the
org psych reading Carse, readingthe Tao Te Ching as context for
(30:43):
talking about organizationalchange and stuff that just, you
know, just should not have beenallowed, right?
Doing linguistics theory and allthis stuff and then over time it
becomes oh, yeah enough, youknow, evidence shows up Oh, this
actually works like students arereally excited about this and
they're having applications,right?
And then it getsinstitutionalized but but that
risk for that administrator Totell that teacher, whether it's
(31:03):
in high school or grad school orwherever, you know, the risk of
that director telling thatmanager in the department yeah,
feel free to throw away theplaybook.
Just make sure you don't hurtthe employees or the business
and make sure you generatevalue.
A big risk for that person totake.
And Tara, Tara LaRue, shout outto Dr.
Tara LaRue, one of my favoritehumans on the planet.
The risk that Tara took and justsaying, yeah, just do what you
(31:25):
want.
We're going to, we're just goingto, you know, let you kind of
put you in a box is massivebecause there's no incentive
where no one's going to pat heron the back.
You know, it's all downside andit has to proceed from, she has
to be engaged.
She has to care more about thestudents than the system.
And obviously have trust in meand vet all that Right.
The systems are designed to, andagain, for all the talk about
(31:45):
innovation and all this.
Our systems are designed topunish innovation to make it far
too risky to do.
Kyley (31:51):
This conversation has gotten very timely for me,
because I'm trying to figurethat out as a director who's
trying to make sure that thespace is fluid for people to try
their stuff and do their things,but also, no one's going to get
hurt.
And it is one of the biggestchallenges I've experienced here
before.
a.m. (32:08):
be prepared for it.
Kyley (32:09):
Yeah, well, yeah, and I think for me, is like, Getting
to that point of trusting thatyou understand what, how, do you
know now how, how not to letstudents get hurt?
Like, can I leave you in a roomand you're going to make sure
everybody gets out safely?
Like, I don't know.
That's, that's, that's what I'mworking on right now is how do
(32:30):
we, how do we figure that out asan organization?
So I can be like, okay, cool.
All the number looks good.
Go for it.
Do whatever it is you got to do.
And then stuck on it right now.
a.m. (32:40):
I was having lunch yesterday with Shelly, the head
of the International Festival ofArts and Ideas, about, you know,
maybe some collaborating onthings.
And you know, we're talkingabout just, just running a non
profit and, you know.
And I said, you know, I try todesign things I can walk away
from but that will sustain,right?
And she said yeah, that'stricky.
How the hell do you do that?
Like, when do you know when topull back?
I said, I don't know.
But what you do is, and nowwe're in a meta conversation.
(33:02):
Kyley has actually experiencedthe other side of this.
You know, I'll share what I'mdoing and I'll just keep doing
it.
It is, you find things that areout of the group's depth, but
that aren't going to blow up thebusiness.
And then you become unavailablewhen they need to get done have
to and they have to figure itout.
Kyley (33:21):
Yeah.
a.m. (33:21):
Right?
And you you
Kyley (33:25):
Yep.
a.m. (33:25):
and they figure it out.
And if it goes wrong, it's notgoing to blow up the business.
All right.
But the fifth ring on that, ifyou'd done on the first string,
it would have blown up thebusiness.
And so you just keep like notbeing available for more and
more critical things.
And, and assuming you've donethe pre work of having people
who are actually engaged andcommitted, that's, you know,
(33:46):
that's, that's, that's the jazzof the thing, I think, of, of,
of, you know, managing this wayor leading this way, at least
that's one way of it.
But again, it's delicate.
There's no guarantees.
There's all risk, you know?
And so discerning like, is thisperson actually engaged?
Is this team actually engaged?
They're going to, you know,actually care about the
business, the company, thestudents first and foremost you
(34:07):
know, the mission, you know andI don't mean in a negative way,
like, like they're not, likethey don't care, but like
there's a depth, there's a,there's an ownership level
engagement and then there's aexecution level engage, right?
And so I was like, is there anownership level engagement?
And then, okay, cool.
How do I let, it go?
How do I become unavailable?
And they got to figure it out.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Kyley (34:24):
I was on to you.
I've been on to you for like ayear and a half now.
Yeah.
The the like, yes, 48 hoursafter a critical question has
been asked, it's like, yep, I,I, I see a pattern here.
Yeah.
No, it, it's, though stressful,it's working.
And I've learned a lot.
a.m. (34:39):
Well, and don't you do this with students though,
right?
Because you say, I learned alot.
You learn so much more in thosesituations than if you got the
answers and internalize theanswer.
Because now, that prescribedanswer is my crutch.
At the end of this kind ofexperience, I am the crutch.
Right?
I know I can rely on myself andthe people around me for this.
Kyley (34:59):
That's one of the things that I see this year that is
challenging for me is I don'tsee as much of that in students.
I don't know where it is yet,where the key thing, I think
part of it is having, havingthat circle be significantly
smaller with, with new staffwho've come in and don't, don't
totally get what's going onabout it.
They're basically getting caughtup as the students get caught
(35:21):
up.
And so But like with our, oursecond year students.
Yeah.
Like the product developmentteam.
Yeah.
They barely talk to me.
,and I'm like, this is wild.
We check in every couple weeksand they're like, this is what
I'm doing.
I'm like, okay.
That's great.
a.m. (35:35):
Sort of education as incubator.
Yeah.
Right.
like they're just incubatingtheir own learning and, and a
valuable product that they'regonna launch at the end of it.
Kyley (35:41):
Yeah.
Scott (35:42):
One thing I've seen as an observer is students presenting
at the end of every semester orsometimes more frequently, They
Not prepared.
You know, I have no preparation.
No idea.
Like, Oh, today's that present?
And they do their presentation.
They might have a few hiccups.
Maybe they're You know, they'renot projecting or they're not
enunciating, but all the rest ofthe students Or modeling what
(36:02):
the instructors are doing, whatthe educators are doing and
supporting them And saying, Oh,you're building this here.
This is how I did it on mineafterwards and getting them to
the next step because they're,you know They haven't talked to
them during program, but Theysee their presentation and like,
I've already done that.
Let me show you how I did it.
And that was just like, Oh,they're totally modeling what
you folks do you know, with themwhen they're trying to find
(36:25):
something that works for them.
I wish there was a way I couldcollapse that into something
that's, you know, beginning,middle and end easily.
But it's pretty interesting tosee.
Sam (36:35):
like, you're speaking to something that I've been
thinking about for a while,which is like, just this like
idea of like scaffolding, whichis like, just like building
situations where that canhappen, but like slowly over
time.
And like, I've had like a coupleeducators come up to me and be
like, why are the students justlike, they just don't like, they
don't seem to like want to workon their own.
They always ask her questions.
Like, Well, if you sit someonedown after coming from school
(36:56):
where you're told what to doevery five minutes, like you
have to raise your hand to go tothe bathroom, then you're told
you transfer to a space whereit's like, figure it out.
Do you really think that's goingto work in retrospect?
Probably not.
But if you scaffold it in such away, it's like, right.
Maybe they watch the videos, yousit there and help them.
Then the next time you like stepback a little more and you step
back a little more until at somepoint they're able to do it on
(37:17):
their own.
Yeah.
That's scaffolding.
Like you're building that intothe process.
Like if you build that into yourprocess, it would absolutely
work, but you can't expect themto just get it right away.
Like you've been in this for awhile.
Like you have no idea what it'slike to not know coding.
You have no idea what it's notlike like what it's like to have
a second language and try tofigure this out at the Same time
like a lot of these studentsLike i'll be talking about
(37:38):
college like that's a thing.
I'm like, yeah, it's absolutelya thing if you want some help
email me, let's figure that out,you know, but a lot of our
educators come from a techbackground not an education
background and scaffolding isnot something that's Easily
understood not even at thecollege level and I think one of
the difficulties you're runninginto is like how do you build
that in such a way where itdoesn't You Burn somebody,
including the educatedthemselves.
(37:58):
And then kind of what to am wasspeaking about and, and Scott
was speaking about you know, howdo build that like excitement
and ambition for someone whomight be burnt out or may not
like, you know, if you comefrom, like, I build my own apps
all the time.
So now I got to teach them andmake an app.
I'm teaching the same thingevery time.
You know, how do you build thatambition?
And I think that's what we'retrying to figure out right now.
Kyley (38:17):
100 percent agree.
Yeah, and I appreciate your andKay's approach in this most
recent thing because it seemslike some more of that
scaffolding has been happening.
It seems successful for thestudents who are in that program
right now.
I have this silly idea orambition is to take the whole
education team out of the woodsand make them build stuff with
sticks and rocks, just likefully outside the tech space,
like, what's, what do you careabout?
Here's sticks and rocks.
Make something just to give likethe context of going into a
(38:39):
whole new, like, vehicle forcreation.
And then how do you, becauselike, that's what these
students, some of these studentsare doing, like, computer
science sounds cool.
I don't know anything about it.
I don't know the last time Kayand Mo has been, like, actually
confused by a technical project.
Like, they, they do it.
They know how to do it.
They, they got the process down.
How do you step out of that andbe like, this is what the
(38:59):
experience is like.
A whole new medium.
Probably not sticks and rocks,but something like that.
Something, something outsidethere.
a.m. (39:06):
it's a an analog analog of digital
Kyley (39:09):
yeah, yeah.
yeah.
yeah.
Scott (39:10):
I think the carving, you know, bowls and spoons might be
a good idea.
Sure,
a.m. (39:14):
I would love to have the, bandwidth capacity.
And again, as we mature withfunders and they get more and
more, you know trust in the kindof results we're generating.
I would love to have like, likeour summers, for example you
know, you're starting theprogram in September, but
actually you're going to startin August and the month of
August is not here.
It's, it's, it's at a camp inessence.
(39:34):
And we're working on all of the.
Human development, foundationalstuff, the community stuff, the
interpersonal stuff, the, all ofthat, like that, that sure,
because that's our groundingnow.
We just have to do it in bitsand pieces.
But if we can have even a twoweek retreat, the summer camp
that starts it off.
And then September you come inand start working on the thing.
It'd be amazing.
Sam (39:55):
When I was president of this club, something like, I ran
into that same issue where a lotof my executives were like, they
were just always at odds.
Like they just would be like,why can't you get this budget
done?
The treasurer would be like, youdon't understand what I'm going
through.
Meanwhile me who's helping allof them, it's like they're both
right and they're both wrong.
So something that I did is tokind of alleviate it was I was
like, all right, now you all aregonna be in each other's shoes.
And this is going to be awilling choice.
(40:16):
So what we did was we startedoff small, which was like, it
was this thing called writingthe meeting notes.
We would have to write, someonewould always have to write the
meeting notes.
And so each team member andtheir chief of staff, where they
were training, we'd put them onthe board and we'd spin it,
including me.
So like, even me who would havethe most work, I could spin it
and end up on the board.
Right.
And something I foundinteresting is there would be a,
and the more work you did or theless work you did, your, your
(40:37):
slice would get bigger orsmaller.
So you could see how everyonewas doing work.
Right.
And there would be, there wasone time where our treasury team
got it three times in a row.
Had the most work, got it threetimes in a row.
We could not figure out what wasgoing on.
And it was really interesting tosee because of this process we
were doing.
Other teams were like, no, I'llhelp you.
Oh, no.
No, I'll got it.
Like the I wouldn't even sayanything Might you have stuff
say I'll have it.
I was like, did you justvolunteer our team?
(40:57):
What?
Oh, okay Like and it was reallyinteresting to see that this is
like something they enjoyed likethey enjoyed coming to meetings
And then I would also pull backlike, okay, I'm not gonna run
the meeting this time like todayI'm gonna hand it over to the
vice president team We're gonnahand it to a treasury team or
you're each gonna get yoursections You're in charge of
these pieces of yourself.
Like they're just small.
I'm aware of it.
Each thing is I know what eachthing does You but I want to
(41:18):
give you ownership of that andjust seeing them get excited
about it, seeing them get up andpresent these things.
And then even in like our, ourwork, like the way we got some
of these executives was, I mean,this thing was like a term
Tuesday.
We would just teach about aterm.
No, it's called T Tuesday.
It's LGBT.
That's what we called it.
LGBT.
We just spill the tea aboutstuff.
And we would get two new membersand we just, I would tell them
like, here's the slideshow.
(41:39):
It's already done.
Everything's in there.
Present it.
I don't care how you do it.
And at the end, we'll talk aboutit.
And I remember the way that ourentire executive team started
from that one moment, becausetwo of them did it.
They were super nervous.
They were just like going crazy.
Just talking, talking, talking,talking.
That was horrible.
And then our treasurer showed upthe next day.
We didn't know he was ourtreasurer yet.
And he was like, y'all justseemed cool.
Became our treasurer after thatended up speaking at during
(42:02):
graduation.
And it was literally becausethese two people, I was just
like, figure it out.
Good luck.
You have everything you need.
There's no messing up.
You can't mess up.
Of course you can, I just didn'ttell them that.
But I think that's likesomething that Like this
organization is is figuring outis maybe we don't need to go in
the woods and build stakesbecause i'm not gonna do and
build stakes because I'm notgonna do Because no
Kyley (42:23):
not building sticks, we're building with sticks.
Sam,
a.m. (42:26):
love the clarity and
Sam (42:28):
Listen, I just, I, I am for not doing Jenga in the woods
a.m. (42:33):
I, I was imagining more like a retreat, like a
Kyley (42:36):
Nah, we're all building our own shelters outta sticks
and leaves.
What
Sam (42:39):
what I don't trust is Kyley not to be, to be like, oh, we're
going a resort.
And then he pulls out a bunch oftents.
a.m. (42:44):
no, we're not we're not putting
Sam (42:45):
Yeah.
My
a.m. (42:46):
the
Kyley (42:46):
carry a
Sam (42:48):
big boots like, oh yeah, this is not made for
a.m. (42:52):
no, no no good.
I, Can you imagine the story youjust told can you imagine a a
corporate DEI officer?
Trying to do this With the kindof nonsense constraints and the
risk aversion and the, all thethings they have to get right
and all the things they can'tget wrong at just, and then
again, we want, it's likeinnovation, like diversity is
(43:13):
like innovation.
Like we, they talk about it, Ithink they're sincere and
they're blind to the fact thatthe entire design of the system,
the hyper preparation againstrisk blocks anything real like
this from actually happening.
Sam (43:26):
I I, think that's just 'cause they don't ask the right
questions.
Like it's always like, ideascome from the top and not the
inside.
Mm-Hmm.
Like, it's always this wholething of like, how do we stop
gun violence?
And it's like, all of thesepolicy educators are like, how
do we stop gun violence?
I was like, I don't know, gointo the school and don't go to
the kid and be like, How do westop gun violence?
That kid's gonna look at youlike, what do you mean?
I don't know, that's your job.
(43:46):
If you just go like, what wouldyou do to make this place safer?
What steps do you think someonecould take tomorrow?
What steps do you think someonecould take in the next month?
I promise you that kid would belike, Oh, that's easy.
Do this and this and this andthis and this.
There's so many of our studentsthat come in here like, the
educators did this, this wouldget fixed.
And it's not big wants.
It's not big needs.
Sometimes it's just like, justprovide lunch
Kyley (44:04):
We love to have nice bathrooms.
Sam (44:06):
Yeah, it's like, it's stuff like that, but like, where do
you create the forums or thespace for that to happen?
And this is, somebody broughtthis up to me recently about my
college.
It was like, what is it like tobe an LGBT student?
I was like, listen, I love, Ilove administrators, I DEI
people, but I love when you comein, you're like, here's my role,
here's what I do, here's how Ican help you, what can I do to
fix it?
And these students are lookingat you like you have five heads,
(44:27):
cause they've never been in thisspace before.
You didn't train them to behere, you didn't train them to
be able to ask those questions.
Maybe some of them do, but notall of them.
So like, what experience arethey getting out of this other
than making you look good?
And that's my problem.
And I think that we're notreally making space for like,
Not necessarily just oureducators, but educators in
general and students to be ableto speak to this stuff where
(44:48):
it's like, here's what I need,here's what I want, here's what
I see wrong.
I'm not expecting this all toget fixed, but if you want my
perspective on it, here's myperspective.
Like, that's it.
a.m. (44:56):
It's such a hassle though, man.
It's like a lot to manage.
Do we have to.
Sam (45:00):
Yes! Yes, you have to! If you care about the thing, yes!
a.m. (45:04):
sitting here in the seat it it's like, you know, I got to
deal with that complexity and Ihear you with that.
That's the stuff we got to do.
And even for us, I think we'redecent at it.
And I have no doubt we can get10 times better.
Kyley (45:15):
A hundred percent.
Well, yeah, and that's, andthat's, that's what I'm
actively, consistently thinkingabout, is like, how do you have
enough structure that things aresafe?
But, The ability to actuallymove at the speed of student.
Because if you're like, Hey, Iwant chicken nuggets and we're
like, we'll roll out chickennuggets in May.
Why am I requesting anything?
You know, like the ability tonot be able to make change
(45:36):
meaningfully happen.
makes those conversations a mootpoint, like you're just
screaming into a void.
Sam (45:40):
I don't think it does.
I disagree respectfully as aperson who's been in that
position.
If you walked me through whatyou are doing to get me to
there, and why it's coming inMay, I'm not gonna be mad.
If you tell me, I hear you.
The process that happens next iswe're going to do this and this
and you keep me informed on howthat's happening.
I am not going to be mad at thatbecause I am aware that you're
making the change.
You're showing me that processactively and you're making me a
(46:02):
part of that process.
I think that's fair and I thinkthat's what we need.
a.m. (46:06):
also want to offer a disclaimer to the listeners that
the chicken nuggets wereprovided the very following
week.
Kyley (46:11):
I now, I now have a juice proposal on my desk.
a.m. (46:13):
Well, listen.
And, and, and I, and I said tothat young man, because he, he
caught me as I was living oneday.
He said, can we, can we getjuice?
I was like, you can have like 50flavors of juice.
Here's the design problem thatyou have to work on.
Yeah.
Said we have lots of softseating here because we wanna
give you all lots of options forhow to sit.
when we first started, we hadjuice and, and, and, you know,
lemonade and things like that.
(46:34):
And all these couches got reallysticky and they're really
impossible to clean.
So, work, work with yourcolleagues, work with your
fellow students, figure out howdo we have sticky sugary stuff
in here that doesn't destroycomputers?
Because water and computers, wecan fix juice and computers.
We can't and, and you know, the,the thing, so this is your
space, you know, they, theyknow, right.
So design around that issue andyou can have any beverage you
(46:56):
want, non alcoholic, obviously.
Non caffeinated, too.
Marginally caffeinated.
I don't want to send them homeat
Kyley (47:03):
I fully serve them caffeinated tea sometimes.
With I was like, disclaimer.
a.m. (47:07):
Well, but that's a marginal amount of you know,
They're not gonna drink a gallonof green tea, you
Kyley (47:11):
Mountain Dew.
a.m. (47:12):
Yeah, Mountain Dew is a
Scott (47:13):
different
a.m. (47:13):
you know, issue, right?
Yeah, I don't want to send themhome at seven o'clock at night,
you know.
Sam (47:18):
yeah.
Building the tech bros early.
a.m. (47:20):
God help us.
Yeah, let's, let's, let's end onTech pros and, and, and and a, a
collective prayer that we neverhatch any of them.
Kyley (47:26):
Mm hmm.
Sam (47:27):
looking right at K,
a.m. (47:28):
Yeah.
Right.
I don't think TK is
Kyley (47:30):
Kay.
Sam (47:30):
he's living off of ice, tea and Dreams.
Dreams
a.m. (47:33):
Yeah.
yeah,
Kyley (47:34):
So Kay.
He acts like a tech pro, but Kayalso has a deep seated
humanistic mission to what heworks on.
a.m. (47:41):
This it K Kay's not a tech bro to me, like what I consider
a tech bro, right?
Like Kay is a, a deep.
I don't know.
How would I say it?
You know, he's a tech
Kyley (47:49):
Sure.
Like he Yeah.
Scott (47:50):
wants to understand.
He leads with altruism.
He
a.m. (47:54):
help.
Yeah.
How it
Scott (47:55):
I can
a.m. (47:56):
The the tech bros are you know, like like all the other
flavors of bros are all about,you know, kind of conquest and
progress
Scott (48:03):
for progress
a.m. (48:04):
and killing it and and and hustling and Like just no
humanity to it at all.
Just just it's all just someversion of a sport How do we
move ten yards further, bro?
And then slam something And highfive
Kyley (48:20):
to take it back three steps, I appreciate your
perspective, Sam.
And I think that actually clearsup a lot of stuff for me on a
way to approach it.
So I wanted to call that out.
The One concern is that we haveto be accountable quickly for
students and the idea that wecould, I do want to include them
in the process, but it's justsuch a messy thing sometimes,
but making an easy, simple wayto kind of work through that
(48:40):
could be really helpful.
Sam (48:41):
Yeah, I think a lot of people don't realize is like
because like I'll be honest likeI was a person who requested
something like That I I arguefor an LGBT center.
It took me Four years to getthat.
I was never mad about it becauseI was included in the process I
was there when they were hiringand they were like, yeah, it
might be around here We haven'thit there yet, but just letting
you know or hey, just as areminder We're still working on
(49:04):
it and it's been messy.
You know, there's a lot ofpolitics stuff that goes on It's
it's really difficult But like Icould see the honest humanistic
perspective that they caredabout me And that's what
mattered to me more thananything.
And I think a lot of peopledon't realize is like when
people ask for change, I don'tthink they're expecting it
tomorrow.
They just want to know that youcare and you're working with
them to get there.
a.m. (49:23):
What you just said there and acknowledging the
contribution Sam made to to youknow Some stuff you're thinking
about there.
I'll share with you last night.
Driving, back late.
I hopped onto clubhouse and youknow a couple of friends that
were on and so just you know alittle social kind of room and
one of them said oh I've beenmeaning to tell you I've been
listening to your podcast andand I think it's just so amazing
that that you do your like likestaff meetings You Like,
(49:45):
publicly like, that.
like, holy shit, that is Like,we're, we're, we're, we're, I
mean, obviously these aren't theonly, you know, conversations we
have.
But, but so much of this, wejust kind of like, just, like
what you just did, like, it'sjust a very practical, this is
how we engage, and it neveroccurred to me that showing up
to people potentially as, you'relistening in on a staff meeting,
Scott (50:05):
which in part you are.
a.m. (50:07):
Like, this This is our more conceptual, one of our more
conceptual kind of spaces forconversation to keep the thing
alive and moving and growing andevolving.
Kyley (50:14):
One thing I also, also show is just a, how like deep
level of commitment in our liveswhere like, no matter where we
Scott (50:21):
start,
Kyley (50:23):
where we end up.
Well, how how does it it workfor the kids?
Yeah.
How does it work for us stuff?
Sam (50:28):
I had it over when one of my former co workers was like,
Hey, I was listening to thatpodcast you talked about our
prior workplace.
Have them sign me on.
I was like, I would never dothat.
I don't trust to do it within aninch of my life.
And he's like, you're doinggreat.
I was like, stay out of it.
Scott (50:43):
Oh, we got on the phone right now.
a.m. (50:45):
that's fine.
Oh, I'm on, I'm
Sam (50:47):
If all I heard was, Carlos is here, I'd be like, run.
Just, no.
a.m. (50:51):
I've been toying with I I, we, I haven't looked at the
metrics.
We haven't talked about themetrics in a while.
But, but, but I, I feel likethere's enough regular folks at
this point.
I, I was toying with the idea atsome point when we have the
bandwidth for maybe like earlypart of summer or something,
that we try one of these liveactually.
there are some folks who areregulars who I, I think would,
if the timing were right, woulddefinitely kind of jump in.
Kyley (51:11):
Do you want to start with questions?
We'll start with writtenquestions that we can filter
before we go into full on, justsay whatever you want on air?
yeah, that's exactly
Sam (51:19):
exactly right.
I can only imagine Kay.
I am so glad you asked aboutcrypto
Kyley (51:24):
Yeah.
Then they get to see our, ourbeautiful space and all the, all
the all the comfort that we haveon here.
Sam (51:30):
Yeah.
Yeah.
we're one place, It's likecloser to becoming gaming bros.
Woo.
a.m. (51:35):
All you out there, we don't mean to offend you.
You are welcome to come in andhave some tea.
If you're willing to kind of,you know, hang and explore a
different perspective.
Scott (51:47):
No, no chicken nuggets for the tech bros though.
Kyley (51:49):
Mean, let's say write a proposal.
Sam (51:50):
Mountain Dews must be left at the door.
I will be taking them.
Thank you.
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