In this episode the team discuss various aspects of life, particularly focusing on concepts of change, personal growth, and human potential. They engage in a discussion around 'ruts' and 'resets', drawing personal experiences and insights into how these states can affect one's life, work, and mental well-being. By diving into topics of education, critical pedagogy, and intersectionality, they draw connections between personal development and wider social justice issues. Furthermore, the conversation reveals perspectives on handling stuck states or 'ruts' either through shifts in physical environment or mindset. They also discuss the relevance of critical pedagogical practices in education and societal change. Towards the end, the discussion shifts towards restorative practices and involving students in design aspects of learning, bolstering the idea of continued growth and adaptation. The conversation wraps up acknowledging the vital role of student-alumni interactions in fostering a rich learning experience.
You can find a.m. on Instagram and TikTok at @absurdwisdom. We are produced and distributed by DAE Presents, the production arm of DAE (@dae.community on Instagram and online at mydae.org).
The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the speakers and do not necessarily reflect the views or positions of any entities they represent. While we make every effort to ensure that the information shared is accurate, we welcome any comments, suggestions, or correction of errors.
You can contact us at daepresents@mydae.org.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
a.m. (01:38):
Hey the voices in today's conversation are Kyley
Komschlies, Sam Ascencio, VictorRios, and our producer, as
always, is Scott Amore.
All are colleagues of mine atDAE Let's listen in.
It's always been a sort ofinterest for me, me personally,
but in development work, it hasalways become something that,
that at some point or anotherneeds to get focused on with a
(01:59):
person is the, you know,propensity we have.
To just find a track and stickto that track, and then just go
on autopilot with it.
So.
Big ways, small ways.
Ordering the same thing forlunch, all the way up to staying
in a job 12 years longer thanyou should have.
You know, etc.
Kyley (02:20):
Reading this, it made me think about ruts.
and Like, how do you evenunderstand if you're in a rut?
And I say that because like,contemplating my life, like, my
life has a fair bit of diversityand also ruts.
But one time in my life where Idid the same thing every day for
like six months.
I got up, I ate breakfast,packed up my tent, I walked for
12 hours, I put down my tent, Imade dinner, I ate food, I went
(02:43):
to sleep, But if, like every dayfor six months.
Did not feel like a rut.
But I can come and do something,like, in the rest of my life, I
can do different things, I caneat different places, I can see
different people, and feel veryrut.
And that is an interesting,like, wondering, thinking about
the difference between those twothings.
For me it's not just the thingthat you do.
a.m. (03:04):
That's exactly the conversation we had, I guess,
two weekends ago now thatprompted this topic.
Yeah.
Scott (03:09):
So a lot of people, I know thrive on routine.
Becomes comfortable for a periodof time and then can develop
into a rut without knowledge ofthe rut.
Necessarily until you wake upone day and say, Oh my god, I
don't feel good.
I don't feel like anything.
I don't feel like doing this.
I don't feel like doing anythingelse, that kind of stuff.
(03:30):
And, you know, It's probablyamplified when you have
caretaking as part of that aswell.
a.m. (03:36):
I mean, what you're describing Kyley is, is, is
monastery life, right?
Like it is.
The exact same thing, in theexact same sequence, every
single day.
Four the gong goes off, fourtwenty you're downstairs sitting
in meditation, blah blah blahblah, right?
And you know, you used thesecond the three words that I
think hang together me in thisconversation, right?
ruts, it's routines, rituals, Sowhat I hear you say was a
(04:01):
ritual.
It a ritualistic relationship toa repeated pattern, yeah.
is a very habituatedrelationship to a pattern where
like, I'm there, you know, thething just I'm just going,
right, versus a ritual is it isabsolutely the same thing and
over, but I'm really there.
(04:22):
And the routine is sort of maybewhere you start off and then it
collapses into, you know, rut orritual.
Kyley (04:27):
Yeah.
Something I noticed differentabout that is that like, If I
didn't pack up my tent, I didn'tget to walk.
If I didn't put out my tent, Igot wet.
If I didn't make dinner, Ididn't eat dinner.
And I was aware of that all thetime.
As opposed to now when I justcall somebody and have them
order pitaziki, delivered to myhouse it doesn't have the same,
like, whatever, it may be.
Sam (04:50):
I was going to say, I was actually really interested in
this, I actually decided to doresearch on this.
And, Specifically, I was kind offocused on like, ruts in terms
of social change and criticalpedagogy.
So I found this reallyinteresting research that kind
of defined what, ruts were forsocial justice oriented people,
or social oriented justicemovements.
My notes here, but ruts canmanifest as complacency,
burnout, or the repetition ofstrategies, that no longer
(05:10):
effectively address the evolvinglandscape, of injustice.
Ruts result from being toocomfortable with certain
approaches, with the dauntingnature of systemic issues that
seem insurmountable, or thedisillusionment with the pace of
progress.
So, that last part was kind ofwhat I was kind thinking about,
was like, that wasn't, youweren't disillusioned because it
felt like in your way.
Like, that was your progress,like you still felt like that
(05:32):
was meaningful to you.
And so, I was kind of thinkingabout this idea of like, well,
when you're in a rut and you'rekind of faced with these
systemic issues, and there'sthis big disillusionment
happening, like, what are thetools that we're given in
society to actually cope withthese things, and I found that
there's this tool, it's calledMCII, and It's But I was looking
into it and basically the wholething is about imagining the
(05:54):
thing you want to do right?
Like the person you're going tobe, the kind person you have to
be to, to complete this thing,right?
And then trying to think of thesteps that you have to take and
focusing only on those steps.
And that is like, kind of theway that I've read on how you
get out of ruts, which I findreally interesting because I did
try it this week to see if thatworked.
Absolute failure.
(06:15):
did not work at all.
I was like, I'm going to, bethis really studious student
that cares about the work evenif I'm not connected to this
class.
And got burnout.
Almost in two weeks.
Even if I made every step, evenif I was like, only ten minutes,
it just didn't work.
a.m. (06:28):
So, so what you're saying, Sam, is you're, opening up an
aspect of this that didn't even,you know, wasn't even part what
I thinking the topic, right?
So, so, I was thinking about andI think, Kyley, you were
speaking to as well, this sortyou know, pattern in my life, or
like thing I do, right?
But you're interesting a reallyinteresting thing, for me at
least.
Where, you know, it is connectedto issues of progress, right?
(06:51):
It is a lack of, progress in anarea.
I, almost hear what you'resaying.
Like, like.
rut in the sense of stagnation?
Yeah, that fair?
Okay, cool.
I just want clarify that.
I heard that.
a whole nother wrinkle in thisconversation.
Kyley (07:06):
Yeah, I'm glad you separated those.
'cause I definitely see those asdifferent rut has, has motion
for me with No it just is, it'smy Kyley just, we're gonna get
up and do the thing.
We're gonna get up and do thething.
gonna get up and do the thing.
we're get that's In Yeah.
a.m. (07:18):
Yeah.
I'm hearing.
Sam introduced this is, rut.
Like wheels are stuck Yeah.
in the mud and maybe crawlingalong.
Kyley (07:27):
yeah, different kind of frustration.
a.m. (07:32):
Is this your one of these,
Victor (07:33):
Mm
a.m. (07:34):
We We can
Scott (07:36):
probably,
a.m. (07:37):
bring you I,
Scott (07:38):
listen
a.m. (07:38):
of in organically as you so, yeah.
tell.
Victor (07:41):
I didn't have any context for
a.m. (07:43):
yeah, yeah.
Victor (07:44):
was like, let me just jump in.
Maybe I'm just
Kyley (07:46):
just showing up and being like, Yes, we're gonna do a
thing.
It's great.
Victor (07:50):
Yeah.
I've never had a conversationaround ruts and, know, was it
ruts and, resets.
Kyley (07:57):
gotta have the alliteration to really get the
title to
Victor (08:00):
Ah, I was just thinking of the linguistics, you know,
ruts, it's a Down sort ofdepressed sort of state and
resets going back up a little Iappreciate just being here.
a.m. (08:12):
This podcast, Victor, is like everything else.
It's a Trojan horse.
You know, the podcast at leastthis version of the podcast is
an excuse of something thatcritical and we weren't making
enough time for, which isfaculty and administrative staff
and people hanging talking aboutthe but sort of, you broader
(08:33):
pieces around how we about lifeand and then we publish it as
podcast.
But, but really, know, hopefullypeople are getting value it.
I, I, I've, I've someinteresting feedback recently,
so I, I know some people arelistening and, and enjoying it,
(08:55):
but the primary actually give usa, a structured way engage.
Sam (09:00):
I was actually doing more on just social justice but
something I was thinking about,was like, critical pedagogy
which is like, you know, how weteach and all these, these
things, and I was, actuallythinking about, because you've
been in education, One of theresearch things that I, I kind
of pulled up was talking abouthow research and critical
pedagogy, intersects with rutsand these research, and one of
the things that I found, was,When it comes to research and
(09:21):
critical pedagogy a lot of, whenwe're like, understanding, ruts,
it's under, like, involvesrecognizing how educational
practices fall into ruts, right,and how they perpetuate these
traditional methods that are noteffective to engage students,
and doesn't challenge theseexisting power structures in the
classroom.
I was kind of interested since,you've been in education and
you've seen these things and notnecessarily as a teacher, but on
(09:42):
the outside, like, what are yourthoughts on, like, the
connection between, like,critical education, pedagogy
and, and ruts, specifically forstaff and students?
Victor (09:51):
How do we tackle that giant question.
right?
So from an organizationalstandpoint, like I've been part
of an organization where like I,when I started it was like
complete social justice minded,anti racist work and then
seeing.
And how people influence thatsometimes in negative ways.
Sometimes in positive ways, andit's not one or the other.
(10:12):
It can be sort of like movingalong at the same time.
but I've seen it go way down.
right?
so where you can instill socialjustice as like you need to go
into a classroom and have thisthis frame.
But people come to it with, withtheir own biases.
And unless organizationally it'sa sustained sort of work and
(10:35):
pushed, you can cause somereally big harm to the people
you're serving in my case,students, families, the
community as So, unless, again,it's a completely sustained org
wide kind of thing, and beingable to recognize when you're
falling short and working onthose things if there isn't ways
(10:58):
for you to evaluate that andwork on those things
intentionally, then, then youcan cause more harm than, than,
what you started with.
You may just stick to yourtraditional pedagogy of, like,
You get your point A and youneed to get a point b and get
those results, but changing thedynamic and not having a clear
(11:20):
focus and a drive for it, can,in the end, be worse than what
you're currently struggling withor the traditional, way of
looking at I don't know if thatmakes sense, but yeah.
Sam (11:32):
Well, it makes a lot of sense.
it's funny because in theresearch I was was reading and
doing all this fun stuff.
It was, They were actuallytalking about, like, if you're
not constantly challenging thesystems, like these, these, you
know, inequities.
Like, if people don't feel theneed to be involved, like that's
kind of when that, like thatstuck rut happens.
and that's when a reset is,like, necessary to kind of
(11:52):
reassess.
And I think that's kind of whatyou're speaking to.
Like, an education that, like,ruts are harmful not only for,
like, our internal well being,our internal systems, right?
Like, there's something, like,gunking it up, But, like, when
that happens, it can have this,like, micro effect to a macro
and affect not only ourselves,but the people around us, and,
like, kind of poison thesesystems that we want to, like,
support and care about, andthen, effectively, You know,
(12:14):
halt social justice movements.
I don't think that's somethingthat's talked about is, like,
the role of education, and,like, these educators who need
the systemic support and are notgetting it and are falling into
ruts, and need a Reset, and theyhave no space or resources to do
so.
Victor (12:28):
Often times you hear from teachers when you go into
this social justice frame let'sdiscipline let's get rid of
discipline, and let's go intothis restorative mode.
rid of the discipline, and let'sgo into this restorative mode If
teachers don't feel like they'resupported or they're learning
about restorative practices, andthey just fall into this rut of
(12:49):
thinking, students just get todo whatever the hell they want.
We need to come down hard onthem.
And so then you have this wholeother swing in the, opposite
direction you want it to go.
Where it's like, we need more,we can't have the student in
this space.
So you become exclusionaryagain.
cause that's been thetraditional education model
(13:11):
where if, if you come to acommunity and the community
doesn't have buy in into youreducation system, then you have
this oppositional thing wherelike students go into the system
because by law they have to gointo that system.
And then the system is just it'snow recognized as the school to
prison pipeline, right?
(13:32):
It just, becomes like we'rejust, excluding them and
hopefully the criminal justicesystem, will take care of it.
at some point.
And some people are okay withit.
know?
it, luckily the trend has beenin the opposite direction, but
It's still a pretty major partof our society as a whole.
a.m. (13:48):
So, the two you, you know have a much more formal
grounding in, in justice theoryactually.
Sam (13:55):
praxis.
a.m. (13:56):
Yeah, yeah, Yeah, exactly, exactly.
Scott (13:58):
So
a.m. (14:00):
I want want to test something in what think I'm
hearing you say.
One phenomena in organizationsin general on human issues is
the delusion you can done..
And the idea that you can bedone with thing is what creates,
you know, a version right?
And social justice, imagine youcan't be done with it.
(14:25):
It's
Kyley (14:26):
like, oh, we're done.
Great.
a.m. (14:27):
now just execute right?
that part of what what I'mhearing, you know, taking the
approach of there is no done.
It part we do.
Yeah.
Sam (14:38):
Oh absolutely.
I don't know if y'all have everheard the term of like
positionality and reflexivity.
But positionality is kind ofwhen like researchers or people
who doing something kind of lookin themselves and kind of
understand their intersectionalaspects.
Like, what parts of my identityare like affecting what I'm
doing, what I'm teaching, whatI'm looking at, how I choose to
approach these things.
Why I'm choosing these specifictopics right?
And oftentimes when we'retalking about positionality,
(15:00):
it's kind of like just, allright, cool.
I looked at it, I assess it,cool, I understand it, that's
it, right?
That's kind of the perspective.
But then there's this idea, it'slike all right, it doesn't stop
there.
We have what's calledreflexivity.
Which is this active ongoingprocess of looking at how you're
developing things, whether it'sa research project.
curriculum, development, clubwork, anything you're doing, for
anybody, any social justicemovement, even yourself,
(15:21):
whatever you're choosing.
to do, You're constantly lookingat yourselves, your influences,
and how it's affecting everysingle piece of what you're
doing, not just one thing.
And the beautiful part aboutthat is is when you engage with
other individuals Like in thiscollaborative process, you're
doing in a collaborative way.
You're having other peoplechallenge you from the outside,
other people assessing, youknow, what you're looking and
having these open conversations.
(15:41):
that allows you to be moreholistic with what you're
creating for people, but alsoacknowledging, right,
minoritized groups that you maynot be a part of.
right Your voice is going toinherently have a bias.
and when you allow theseindividuals to see, you know,
who you are, this reflexive partwho you are, this reflexive
process, you create somethingholistic in conjunction with
these participants, you know,and like, you're allowing them
(16:03):
to become a piece of that, and Ithink that's a core part of
social justice, is it doesn'tstop.
Like, abolitionism all aboutcreating positive pathways to
success, and positive pathwaysto success are about getting us
the things we need and want.
in life.
Food, water, internet,happiness, joy, community, all
of those Things do not just comeat one step.
They're continuous.
(16:24):
They evolve with the way theworld evolves, with the way
communities evolve, with howthings evolve, right?
With the way we're affected bythese outside factors and
understanding them and beingreflexive about that is an
important part of being, Ithink.
A practitioner of socialjustice, in my opinion.
I'll Let Victor speak more tothat since.
heh.
Victor (16:41):
You said it all.
Sam ha ha said ha ha ha ha andfalling into a rut, right, just
means that those things aren'thappening.
and are but the, reset has tocome with with that
understanding of, you have to bereflective of, of your
practices.
(17:01):
On all levels, you know,whether, teacher or
administrator or student or afamily in the community.
Everybody has to have a piecein, in, how these things shape
out over time.
And I think opening up spaceoften times hits the, the wall
(17:22):
of power.
Of folks who think of themselvesas being holders of power and
being the arbitrators of it.
And when that dynamic sort of Isthat play?
Often times you just get intothis rut again of we're, we're
just gonna be in an oppositionalstance and not really work in,
(17:43):
in tandem.
a.m. (17:43):
you know, kind ruts and resets, right?
reset implications.
Okay, you're in a rut, now, youknow, how do you reset?
But.
I I think I also mentioned inthe kind tee to this is, there
proactive are, practices toavoid the ruts.
Whether, you know, I wasoriginally thinking of in the
context of one's life.
obviously this conversation is,you know I mean, a interest to
(18:05):
us.
Given what we're doing here,right?
But then personally,interesting, because it's new
territory, it continues to be,and what I love about having you
two here is, you know, again,the, the, the the praxis.
In areas we commitment to, youknow, Kyley and I are deeply
committed to, not our field,right?
And so now, so, proactive right,what you just spoke to, what
(18:25):
have you seen effectiveproactive practices in, in these
kind spaces?
And we don't to use an exampleif it weird, but, I'd love use
us an example if we can, right?
But, but generically, practicesto keep this thing alive?
Sam (18:41):
So, when I think about this, often times come back to
social entrepreneurship, a lotof the concepts of social
entrepreneurship, which is a lotof what guides my practice
actually.
And something that came to thisconclusion in a lot of my
readings was like, a couplethings.
One, that questions come fromthe inside, not the out.
Oftentimes with, at least ineducation, we're looking at this
ivory tower and we're oftenspeaking about these things,
(19:05):
these theoretical ideas.
We're talking about minoritizedgroups, but we're not in those
communities actively havingthose conversations.
and I think one of the reallynice things, about working here,
especially with the fact that wehave so many, you know, programs
going on at the same time, youget to actively see how the
things we're implementing affectthese students in real time.
And you get to pivot such a waythat you get to see if a change
(19:26):
happens, and I think that's abig part of me and Victor's role
is, you know, trying to figureout what that looks like for
students.
But, another part is realizingthat communities know what they
need.
You know, you can have all ofthe resources to provide for
that community, but inherentlystudents and communities you're
serving know what they need.
Like if I ask a student, like,what's going on?
Like, where are we at?
It's like, I just have a lotgoing on.
(19:47):
I have school, they can list itout in detail if I ask the right
questions.
And I think that's a big partof, of developing this is, is
asking questions, and asking theright questions, and realizing
that those questions are notgoing to have answers, they're
just going to have morequestions, and, using that.
a.m. (20:04):
That's great.
I mean, that a core do and sofeel good you, you validated
Sam, it
Sam (20:15):
Amazing.
a.m. (20:15):
I And this is aspirational statement, right?
I know that we, you know,there's always work to do.
It's not a, you know, we're notthere.
like, my hope and intention isthis is a question.
Right?
when someone comes in, the placeis question that need to get
really benefits from gettingengaged with.
(20:37):
And so i, I yeah, thank you forresponse.
really, it's and, and it's well,it.
affirming and, and maybeclarifying that, you know, on
the kind of more I don't know ifformal is the word, but I'll use
it.
I don't know, better formalsocial work a similar.
Understanding of how to proceed,you know.
how do you do for bring it backto personal growth, humaning.
Sam (21:01):
I'm going but I'll say for me, after.
I, I tried like all of theresearch that, cause I, I really
wanted to feel what this wasabout with ruts And I tried
that, you know, that MCII, whereI was like, all right, cool,
Like, I am studying prehistoryof gender right now.
I love gender studies.
You would think I would likethis.
I like history and genderstudies.
It's just, I don't.
like the way this professorteaches, right?
But I understand that they havea lot of, different things going
(21:22):
on, right?
And these things are affectingme, right?
So I was like, let me try thisvisualization.
I'm going to do this, it's goingto be great, and, then I try to
think of all the feelingsassociated with it, Like I'm
going to complete theassignment, I'm going to feel
good about myself, right?
And when I really looked at it,I realized that was just
something I was telling myself,like, I'll be honest.
I was on the Kool Aid on thatone.
Full, full stop.
Like, have been this problematicchild since high school where
I've been like, I don't, knowwhy we're learning this.
(21:43):
I hate this thing burn thesystem, like I've always this
person.
And I recently come to thisrealization is like, I am not
that person.
I'm very much against thesystem, but I'm not, against,
like, the system in such a waythat I want it abolished.
Like, never here, I wantreframed in such a way that it's
healthy and holistic, right?
And I don't think that's a bigwant.
But I also recognize, like, thatdoesn't have to come at the cost
(22:05):
of one's mental health.
And I'm seeing a lot of who I amas person and the students I'm
working with.
Like, I've had, students who arelike, I'm not worth anything.
if I don't get into an Ivyleague.
And the way I look, them, like,are you me?
like, whoa, This is a trip, andI got over my burnout.
because What I started to do isjust recognize, like, this.
this doesn't serve me.
Like, this doesn't serve me inthe way that I need.
(22:27):
Like, I'm not gonna be, my worthis not gonna be determined by
these grades, by this thing, I'mdoing, However, I can take this
experience for what it is,acknowledge that I'm just not
here for it, acknowledge thatwhat I necessarily need is just
this degree to get to thispoint, but I can explore in such
a way that I, like, in the waythat I want, So I went to my
professor and I was like,listen, I'll be honest with you,
(22:47):
I care nothing about yourreading.
I don't care.
But this one thing you gave me,I loved.
And, I went through your archiveof work, and here's what I loved
about what you did.
You're a this is what I'mlooking for.
Is that possible?
And they lit up.
They were like, absolutely.
I'll send you these extraarticles.
And I was like, cool.
This is like 30 articles yousent me.
And I am willing to read everysingle one.
(23:09):
That is more than the reading.
that I have gotten for thisclass.
so far.
Because what I recognized islike, I needed pathway that was
different, having that pathwayallowed me to learn the same
thing.
And I think just when comes toruts with ourselves, it's
recognizing that you don't haveto follow the same path as
everyone else.
You can have your routines, youcan, you can have your ruts.
(23:30):
you can acknowledge where thatcomes from for you You can
acknowledge that, you know,maybe you're receiving these
outside ideas of what you needto be, of who you need to be,
and step away from that andrealize, like, maybe the thing
you just need to do is justlike, punch in, you know, what I
mean punch in that thing, thatday, like, whatever.
that thing is, just send it, andthen find your pathway in a
different way.
Like, there are some things wejust have to do.
(23:51):
There are some students who arenot going to like math class, as
long as they find a way toengage in that, that's a way
that's meaningful to them,right?
Whether that's meeting with yourfriend, and just getting through
one math problem.
that You really found tough,Like, that's one step to finding
a pathway that works for You Youmay not like it by the end of
it, you might be like, I neverwant to touch math again.
but you took it in such a way.
that was meaningful to you, andcreated pathway that mattered to
(24:14):
you, and you learned somethingnew.
Like, maybe math wasn't you, butyou figured out, like, hey, I'm
really good at getting throughthis textbook and figuring this
out to the point that it's like,all right, leave me alone.
Like, That's your thing.
You know what I mean?
And I say that students, here.
There are some times where I waslike, they did not want to do
the design course, some of them.
They were like, I'm just, thisis not for me.
But when they were challenged,it's like, okay, cool.
like, what are some othercontexts we can put this into?
(24:34):
They just flourished.
You when they were given, whenour Spanish students were given
different contexts.
to explore these concepts, theyflourished.
Like, I was challenged withquestions every day when we
create different spaces.
you can do that for yourself.
You can recreate yourenvironment for yourself.
I think that's, that would be mything.
I don't know how everyone elsegets through it, but that's,
that's how I got through mine.
a.m. (24:54):
that last sentence the, the last few words, recreate
your space.
that, that big thing for mephysical changes.
Like, I if I feel that I'm inyou know, know pattern that I'm
just, you know, I will physicalbefore I do anything else.
Like, so literally like, stuffsounds dumb on from the outside,
would literally shoes that feel,make feel, feel different.
(25:17):
I will change my exerciseroutine, I will, you know,
whatever.
then my environment, I will justchange.
I'll like move around and I'llwhatever.
And so, it's all I, I'm just soin, in, you know, and, and just
kind you know, more embodiedthan anything else.
And so that's, one of mypractices to reset is just
physically change things, youknow, both in myself and my
(25:40):
environment.
I find that's effective at for,you know, coming back to being
present and, and, andredesigning.
Sam (25:48):
Yeah.
but that's you acknowledging whoyou are, you know?
what I mean?
Like the things that work foryou and that's a big part of it.
I don't a lot of people realizeit's like, alright, I have to do
what all these like grinderyouTubers I gotta be this
entrepreneur, I gotta, like, Igotta do, like, sell shoes, I
gotta do, you know, whateveryour thing is, it's like, that's
great.
Do that thing For you.
as long as it brings you.
joy in the way that works foryou.
(26:08):
That's reorganizing your space,if that's moving your furniture
at 3 a.
m.
Do it as long as the thing thatyou want to get done gets done.
That's, that's all that matters.
And you enjoy that process, evenif it's the smallest amount.
a.m. (26:22):
Yeah.
Human beings, and we you know,because we did innovation work,
we say this a lot.
Human lot.
do not benefit from practicesmindset.
Machines You know, machineryfrom beings wither in a mindset,
know, and that's what I'mhearing say the kind of
influences.
I'm like, here's You me.
Scott (26:45):
What I'm hearing is, setting systems where you can
have reliable feedback fromgroups.
but then, somehow, you know,pivoting that to be internal
feedback.
Like take your own temperature.
kind of thing, like what's going
Sam (27:02):
absolutely.
a.m. (27:04):
The, the on.
could, you know, people onYouTube that could be useful.
And so few of them.
Hopefully we do some of thisactually some of the feedback
I've gotten recently, I think weare doing some, some of this at
least in very narrow way ispeople give you best practice on
to do, but people who give youquestions and inquiries.
That, that then invites you to,know, find your own answers to
(27:25):
to things.
I mean, what you know, I don'tknow, good philosophy, there
such thing?
The handful of, you philosophyuseful is what It doesn't answer
a damn thing and but, but, butopens you know.
It creates an invitation to, to,you know, okay, Now what what
Kyley (27:44):
Actually, something, something that you said, is like
the idea of being able to getfeedback.
And I remember likecontemplating ruts and times in
my life where I've wantedresets, but I've also been just
like alone.
And When by yourself, like Ithink that's where like, you're
speaking to the philosophy comesinto place, where it's like at
(28:04):
least gives you someone else tobe asking questions.
And whether you're at leastbouncing your, your your
thoughts off someone else'sideas at least.
because I find that, like, ifI'm, contemplating my existence
by myself, I gently spiral intoinsanity.
Gently.
soft.
Just like, it's not like it's anautomatic thing, but like, I
(28:26):
start getting caught in my ownloops.
I start getting caught in my ownthought processes and without a
path to, to to explore those orexpand them.
Like, that's when it's justlike, you just I just keep
getting wrapped up in me.
And that hasn't been useful, andso the reading, and the
journaling, and some of that,being able to bounce your ideas,
at least, off of a differentperspective is huge for, for,
(28:48):
me, understanding and findingways to shift, which is kind of
what sometimes, how I use, likeYouTube videos and stuff where
it's like, I don't know thatyou're right but at least you
give me another, like, thoughtprocess.
around this.
Sam (28:58):
that's a great DBT skill right there.
like, with myself, is, whendialectical therapy.
you start to it's, lot of peoplefall into that exact thing.
you know.
it's it's a lot of like, allright, like if I keep
questioning, thing, if I keepbashing this thing, I'm going to
figure it out, but, you know.
like, sometimes, like,continuing question thing is not
going to be the solution, youknow?
And I think like a lot of peopleI think This is something I've
(29:19):
seen in, like, at least.
with myself, is you questionsomething so much, you start to
make facts out of those feelingsand questions And you start to,
like, Like, well, if thisquestion came up here, and this
thing came here, And Thereforethis thing is truth therefore
everybody hates me, And I'm notgonna be good this thing, and
gonna fail, And I'm gonna behorrible, and Oh my god, why
would I even do this?
And then you're like great yourbut, like, usually what takes is
(29:39):
just, like, you going up tofriend, like, Am I bad at this?
And your friends like, no! no,dude.
Why I love you and you're like,oh, yeah, like Yeah, I can do
that thing like that.
Yeah, that's that's good.
And I think just that key partof it is I don't think people
acknowledge that.
but That part is like, a bigpart of getting over your rut is
having someone to just tell youlike, dude, do the thing.
Who cares if you're bad?
at it?
Do the thing.
(30:00):
Like, I, I'm terrible ropescourses.
I'm terrified of heights.
Recently, my my partner who'salso scared of heights, like,
let's just go do one.
And I was like, I'm how am Igonna do this?
I'm terrified of heights.
And I just, I was just, I like,you know what, this is my
tactic, I'm just gonna look at apole and just go for it, Like,
just go for it, and I wentthrough the whole course, and I
was like, I could never seemyself doing that.
that would have been a rut me,like, I felt terrible that day,
I was like, oh my god, I'mterrible at school, I'm never
(30:22):
gonna do this thing, and I'mlike, I just had a different
perspective, which was high inthe air, terrified for my life,
but I survived because I hadthis little cable on me, you
know what I mean?
I trusted that cable, in thesame way I trust my support
group, I trust my friends.
You have to trust yourself, yourthoughts, and your worth, you
know?
You are able To do something
Scott (30:42):
Big part of trust yourself
Victor (30:43):
Quiet the inner critic
Sam (30:45):
like, thank you for coming.
I love that you're here, I callhim, Jeff.
thank you for love that you'rehere.
Take hike.
a.m. (30:51):
I, I, I to slightly challenge that Victor, like, I
don't think I, I find that Ihave found for myself any
attempts to quiet only make itlouder.
And so it's, it's for me notquieting the inner critic, it's
befriending the inner critic,understanding what, what wants.
Why?
Because I found that all my likeI get one, the most common one
(31:13):
me, I've got so much evidencethat point to, to my, for myself
that I know my shit.
And that I'm really good infront people.
And yet, every single like weeksago I did that panel.
Every single time, I haven'tnamed my voice, but I got one 1
of my voices.
pops and it says the same thingfor the dude, you're not ready.
(31:35):
You didn't prepare this.
You didn't even think about thisproperly.
You're not ready.
This is This is where you'regonna found this is the one
they're find out you know you'redoing.
Like that guaranteed 30 and ofdoing this And can't silence to
your point with Jeff like I canbefriend it I gonna send like
(31:56):
what that voice is about justtrying to protect and can I can
see the origin of and what youknow formed and all this right?
And so know again for me I don'tyou know live in anybody else's
head me, it's like I've foundtrying to silence it futile and
eventually sort And thenreassuring no, no, we're cool.
(32:23):
Right.
Like I get it, I Thank you.
absolutely to concerned, butwe're good.
Sam (32:31):
That's that childhood wounded self, you know what I
mean?
That inherent fear that we won'tbe accepted, but we're human,
social creatures, of course,like, we're all going make
mistakes go through thesethings, it's important that we
acknowledge that those woundsexist.
And, this is a thing I don'tthink a lot of people recognize,
a friend said this to me, andGod bless her, her name is Jill.
love her to death.
she once said to me, she waslike, you are never alone in
(32:52):
life.
Because, right, your adult, selfhas built all of these things,
all of these skills, and isperfectly capable of doing these
things.
you are now the adult.
that childhood you needed.
Remember that.
Because you, adult, you, willalways have your back in the
ways that are most necessary.
(33:13):
for the you that you needed.
You became the adult that youneeded then.
And you will always strive tobe.
that better person for yourself.
And that changed my life.
a.m. (33:21):
Is such an you to family like kind Sort to like you know,
whatever if really look is someversion of that fear.
(33:42):
Mm-Hmm.
that's here.
And be version you two weeks agobecause it in what right.
And, and need not challenged,can, you know, it certainly is.
And fascinating It's Oh this,this me having right.
(34:05):
I've, I've not encounteredbefore.
But previous of and freaked
Sam (34:15):
Hmm.
be this person who surpassesthis thing.
and I think that's like, Ithink, in reading this I feel
like that's what that MCII islike trying talk about, is like,
visualize, like, the you who gotthrough this, connect to that
person.
Like, that's great for somepeople, it doesn't work for me.
But just simply acknowledging,like, you may not like that
(34:35):
thing.
There's all of these mixed partsof yourself, this intersectional
parts of yourself that arecoming.
into play Acknowledging them isokay.
and acknowledging them, maybe,like, you just don't like, that
thing, okay, you know what Ithat's
a.m. (34:51):
you've you've enough, I to mental and implementation.
An NIH article
Sam (34:57):
is
a.m. (34:57):
the first thing that
Sam (34:58):
popped
a.m. (34:58):
up.
Alright,
Sam (34:58):
so Yeah, mental contrasting.
Yeah, it's just like, oh, do youwant to be like, I don't know,
in a rock band?
Okay, cool.
To be in a rock band, you haveto be a singer.
To be a singer, you have to dosinging lessons.
And like, Imagine how greatyou'll feel when you get the
first singing lesson.
I don't work for me.
I'm a pessimist.
a.m. (35:15):
mean, on first blush a, perhaps rigorous or, science y
version of what people talkabout with manifestation right.
Sam (35:24):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Sorry.
rolling my
a.m. (35:27):
take going I'm manifesting,
Sam (35:30):
Just I'll just, manifest it.
Just believe it'll happen.
yeah.
like, no.
absolutely is I respect thoseresearchers.
but absolutely.
not.
a.m. (35:39):
I knew think I had somebody close to me, had a
conversation about thismanifesting thing because she
this.
and, And, I liked her take onit.
because just, do, just do thework.
All right.
but, but, she had reallyinteresting on that and I was
like, that do.
take was what, what, for her,you know, meant by manifesting
(36:02):
is the thing that I'm out right?
So you know, a job or whatever,right?
It's, I'm doing I'm not justpassively, I'm doing the my
engagement it as You know, theof the day, my thing is, to
express having So, proactivelyexpressing gratitude for having
(36:25):
thing.
And then still doing get Andthat, fascinating.
Like, energetically, can behindlike, it's, expressing,
basically stepping, and so towhat saying, I made the
connection before, it basicallyshe's doing, I, you that can
frame she's stepping self, whogotten is expressing gratitude
(36:47):
for but doing the present.
Like, I as, if nothing else, a
Sam (36:53):
absolutely.
a.m. (36:54):
You know?
to keep from at and to groundedalready, know, but do to get
there.
Scott (37:04):
Yeah, I think that's totally how I perceive it as
well.
I've been doing working withtherapists, You kind of, works
that way for a long time now,almost 20 years.
And it's the sense of in a way,it's cultivating humility.
When you're looking at ruts anddeficits and stuff in your life,
and figuring out what might bethe way that you want to head,
and, in my experience, is like,you know, it's not necessarily
(37:27):
putting a picture of a mansionon your vision board and waiting
for it to come.
It's more about like puttingyourself in the place where
you're open to try somethingthat you might not have even
thought of in the first place.
and you're thankful for theopportunity and if it doesn't
work.
out.
You just kind of pivot and keepgoing.
Cultivating that humility andbefriending that inner critic, I
(37:49):
think, is part of it too.
Like you said, the inner criticbasically the seed of humility
you know, going forward as well.
People who learn how tocompletely silence it and ignore
it are the ones that are tearingthe world apart.
a.m. (38:02):
Because they're not silencing it, right?
It's, still acting out throughthem.
They're just ignoring
Scott (38:08):
They're ignoring it.
And continuing as, like, well,especially in social justice,
too, you know, like, people comein, and Like, I'm gonna fix
everything.
I'm gonna fix this whole place.
and then the city, and then thecountry.
and those are the ones that arelike, doing the most harm, I
think.
You know, if you look at it froma very High, high level.
Sam (38:27):
I, I don't know if of y'all have ever read, like, Peggy
McIntosh's Invisible knapsack ofPrivilege.
But, oh, it's you've read it,but
a.m. (38:36):
I the is worth alone.
Sam (38:38):
No please, because It's it's great, just, all right.
so, this is just like the recapof it.
but Basically, it's just thiswhite woman who's like, You
know, like, we're all like,inherently like racist, like we
all have really biases, youknow, we got to be careful, you
know, you be careful all thetime, like, you know all just,
you know, we always think likewe're like, racist, like I'm
colorblind, like, no, hun, like,you gotta, you gotta acknowledge
(38:59):
it, right?
So that's what she's saying,right?
She's like, You know, sometimesyou, you think, oh, you know,
you, invite your, like,colleagues in who are, like,
people of color, and you'relike, know, come discuss, and
they'll, like, start sayingsomething, and, like, Kyley be
like, yeah, like, okay, Kyley,cool, you said your thing.
anyway, so, back to me, and alot of people don't realize they
do this.
and so, she's like, you know,we've gotta recognize, like, our
inherent privilege, even if weunderstand these social justice
concepts, we understandintersectionality we understand,
(39:20):
you know, feminism?
Like, all of these things aregreat.
Like, my favorite thing is like,people with patriarchy.
People are like, I know whatpatriarchy is! And I had this
There was this really great guythe other day that was Like,
patriarchy is when men, imposeon women.
I was like, I can't wait youstart reading about same sex,
like, patriarchy when thatcomes, that's be great.
But, and so then it was rightgreat, because She read whole
and I was like, wow, this is sogreat.
Wow, like this really taught usabout, like, you know,
(39:41):
addressing our inherent biases,right?
This, this this this, whitewoman, this other white woman, I
forget their name, but it's areally great article.
It's addressing like, whiteintersectionality from, like, a
poor white trash perspective andit.
was a response to PeggyMcIntosh's thing.
It was like, that's great.
I love what you have to say, butwhat if you're the person who's
like, doesn't have the abilityto have that educated?
(40:02):
What if you're the person who'slower class and like, you know,
considered trash by society andlike, you're basically treated
the same way that you treatyour, like, colleagues of color.
Like, you're being treated thesame way that you treat, like,
these racists treat people ofcolor because you're considered
less than.
What then?
Where did your invisible one at?
I have to, be like, I have tofeel bad about myself and
consistently apologize.
It was this.
really great, like, dichotomybetween the two, and I think
(40:24):
that's just, like, a reallygreat point to, like, social
justice.
It's like a lot of people arelike, yeah, I'm gonna, I'm gonna
fix the thing, like, I've readall these books.
I have a PhD, I can fix thething.
And It's like and then they getto the ivory tower, and they're
like, wow, the view up here isgreat.
And they go back down to thecommunity.
And the community is like, Dude,you're terrible.
Leave.
(40:44):
And I did all the work! byyourself without listening to
anyone else.
And like, then you created a rutfor your system because you cut
out everyone.
You started living in a bubble.
That's the problem.
And I don't think a lot of,people realize, like, like we've
been saying, everything iscontinuous.
You can't just stop, but youcan't just think you just made
it to the top.
Like, oh, you manifested thisgreat job, you did all these
(41:06):
things, you're gonna fix.
Like, you know, like that meme.
where It's like, we did it.
We solved racism.
It's over.
It's like, we're never going toexperience it again.
Like that's never going tohappen.
Like you can't solve racism, butyou can address it in such a
way, right?
That you can give voice to thepeople who can help us move,
towards more positive pathways.
But we're never going to solveit.
It's just not going to be athing.
But we can start to understandit in such a way that we can
(41:28):
give more people the tools toaddress like these microcosms of
it.
a.m. (41:32):
Been here in the background thinking like, there
is no done.
I think, think I don't I'm, youunduly we do least a decent,
hopefully a good job with withsome these things in And the
conversation is not overt forstudents.
yet.
(41:53):
and one of the things that i'dlove to out for next year is do
we have the conversation be moreovert theoretical there's more
about like that's like And too,I, I'm not suggesting we solve
for live on, But, but it just,just, you it to me you know,
(42:18):
part the progression of, thesethings, right?
Is, to, you're using as a ofengagement.
can you make it, know, you toolsthe hands of?
them and them, you know I'm nothow in everything else.
got get done and we don't needto solve that's what I'm
thinking.
Kyley (42:38):
I think part of it is, as we expand, like, as we start
locking in the.
the product, the process of thething.
It lets us opportunity one, tofeel comfortable with that,
which I think is we're finallygetting to.
and then lets us then work onhow do we make connections with
people, Cause like these peoplein the room can have a
conversation, I don't know whatthe other conversations is
(42:59):
outside, like how do you have aconversation, where you can
bring other people in otherperspectives and also feel
comfortable that they.
They can approach it in a waythat's thoughtful.
and curious and not from theirivory tower.
or whatever it may be.
a.m. (43:11):
So to
Kyley (43:12):
that.
Yeah.
a.m. (43:12):
and what this Right.
Right.
Well, that's, and that's kind ofwhat I'm pointing to.
where It's like we all have,Victor's education manager.
Right?
He has a very specific, likethat's his role him, him
bringing up this topic andconversation has automatically
brings a flavor, me bringing itautomatically.
favor, You bring itautomatically a flavor.
And finding people who don'thave already set up identity for
(43:37):
them can be potentially a usefulway to approach that.
You know, and then thoseconversations, we can help wrap
them in.
Victor (43:45):
Even just posing the question to Students and letting
them lead is, I think, I've seenwork magic.
in the past, know, which iswhere students here's where
restorative practices are.
How do you envision them?
Here's what they, what they saythey are what do you envision in
your space here at school?
(44:07):
and just allowing room for theirvoice too.
to have impact I think would anapproach.
a.m. (44:13):
I had woman tuesday, introduced by a friend.
thank you, Joan.
I know Joan She's great.
staff.
be to, she's with us.
And, most of her work is in herhistorical work is in
non-profit, in in and five yearstook a swing know, kind of a for
profit, for profit role.
(44:33):
and, and considering her thing.
But, her big emphasis, Insteadof questions, she asked me
around, you what do makingthings, right?
how Are you engaging in designstudents on, you know on the I
said, you again, is one of manythings we, have as an intention
(44:57):
and an an approach, but farformal, you know so, so my point
just, there may be to, to, in ofto as to conversation or in
addition to conversations, in,find that the we start design in
source is can we introduce in,you some get you know,
(45:22):
restorative justiceconversations that context of
design, right?
Like those some of and then toyour I it's absolutely bringing,
somebody her As You you rolebased with But to conversation
and they're vetted.
That kind thing is pointing toaround evolve would be amazing
(45:44):
to do.
I forget to do, soundsaspirational.
I think we have obligation tomoving more and more in
directions.
We've earned, you the, the we'vedone the become stable.
We've done the to, you producethe kind outcomes that get
funded.
And think now we obligation tomore, you formalize these sort
(46:04):
things.
You know, noone going to dingfor not doing it.
But I think we collectivelywould lose interest if we
didn't.
Kyley (46:12):
Had a tactical idea that I was like what if we bring back
students from the past and havethem come in and do a, do a
design sprint or hackathonaround our program, ones who've
completed successfully haveshown commitment.
Have pizza, and start some ofthose conversations with the
students that are like, in itfor the game.
a.m. (46:28):
Yeah, I, I think all that, about, know, there's about body
of alumni point.
There's backlog of my so many ofyou know, god I just ran one
yesterday an event we're when,when when, you Tuesday has been
on hiatus for a very long time.
Like, I know, will start, butwe've who outside the design.
(46:52):
and the whatever or, you humanpractitioners, who are really
reliable for, you know, actuallylistening to human beings.
And so we any opportunity atthis point.
now sort of managing thesethings in a way ahead you
jeopardize you know, the resultsand kind process stuff getting.
(47:14):
And then take these sort and,and, you manage them in a way
that we don't overburden andthen can't do anything.
Am at a in my life, Sam, where,I want do much for who've read
books move this forward.
So who 40 of of can do work.
(47:39):
Man, we had an opportunity.
We could have some really weirdsign off.
that we said that we do everysingle day that Victor would
have to do.
we didn't.
Nobody, nobody thought about it.
Sam (47:48):
He's on the mic now.
Victor (47:51):
Go forth and be merry is one of the good ones
a.m. (47:55):
it.
That's a podcast.
That's what we do
Hey the voices in today's conversation are Kyley
Komschlies, Sam Ascencio, VictorRios, and our producer, as
always, is Scott Amore.
All are colleagues of mine atDAE Let's listen in.
It's always been a sort ofinterest for me, me personally,
but in development work, it hasalways become something that,
that at some point or anotherneeds to get focused on with a
(01:59):
person is the, you know,propensity we have.
To just find a track and stickto that track, and then just go
on autopilot with it.
So.
Big ways, small ways.
Ordering the same thing forlunch, all the way up to staying
in a job 12 years longer thanyou should have.
You know, etc.
Kyley (02:20):
Reading this, it made me think about ruts.
and Like, how do you evenunderstand if you're in a rut?
And I say that because like,contemplating my life, like, my
life has a fair bit of diversityand also ruts.
But one time in my life where Idid the same thing every day for
like six months.
I got up, I ate breakfast,packed up my tent, I walked for
12 hours, I put down my tent, Imade dinner, I ate food, I went
(02:43):
to sleep, But if, like every dayfor six months.
Did not feel like a rut.
But I can come and do something,like, in the rest of my life, I
can do different things, I caneat different places, I can see
different people, and feel veryrut.
And that is an interesting,like, wondering, thinking about
the difference between those twothings.
For me it's not just the thingthat you do.
a.m. (03:04):
That's exactly the conversation we had, I guess,
two weekends ago now thatprompted this topic.
Yeah.
Scott (03:09):
So a lot of people, I know thrive on routine.
Becomes comfortable for a periodof time and then can develop
into a rut without knowledge ofthe rut.
Necessarily until you wake upone day and say, Oh my god, I
don't feel good.
I don't feel like anything.
I don't feel like doing this.
I don't feel like doing anythingelse, that kind of stuff.
(03:30):
And, you know, It's probablyamplified when you have
caretaking as part of that aswell.
a.m. (03:36):
I mean, what you're describing Kyley is, is, is
monastery life, right?
Like it is.
The exact same thing, in theexact same sequence, every
single day.
Four the gong goes off, fourtwenty you're downstairs sitting
in meditation, blah blah blahblah, right?
And you know, you used thesecond the three words that I
think hang together me in thisconversation, right?
ruts, it's routines, rituals, Sowhat I hear you say was a
(04:01):
ritual.
It a ritualistic relationship toa repeated pattern, yeah.
is a very habituatedrelationship to a pattern where
like, I'm there, you know, thething just I'm just going,
right, versus a ritual is it isabsolutely the same thing and
over, but I'm really there.
(04:22):
And the routine is sort of maybewhere you start off and then it
collapses into, you know, rut orritual.
Kyley (04:27):
Yeah.
Something I noticed differentabout that is that like, If I
didn't pack up my tent, I didn'tget to walk.
If I didn't put out my tent, Igot wet.
If I didn't make dinner, Ididn't eat dinner.
And I was aware of that all thetime.
As opposed to now when I justcall somebody and have them
order pitaziki, delivered to myhouse it doesn't have the same,
like, whatever, it may be.
Sam (04:50):
I was going to say, I was actually really interested in
this, I actually decided to doresearch on this.
And, Specifically, I was kind offocused on like, ruts in terms
of social change and criticalpedagogy.
So I found this reallyinteresting research that kind
of defined what, ruts were forsocial justice oriented people,
or social oriented justicemovements.
My notes here, but ruts canmanifest as complacency,
burnout, or the repetition ofstrategies, that no longer
(05:10):
effectively address the evolvinglandscape, of injustice.
Ruts result from being toocomfortable with certain
approaches, with the dauntingnature of systemic issues that
seem insurmountable, or thedisillusionment with the pace of
progress.
So, that last part was kind ofwhat I was kind thinking about,
was like, that wasn't, youweren't disillusioned because it
felt like in your way.
Like, that was your progress,like you still felt like that
(05:32):
was meaningful to you.
And so, I was kind of thinkingabout this idea of like, well,
when you're in a rut and you'rekind of faced with these
systemic issues, and there'sthis big disillusionment
happening, like, what are thetools that we're given in
society to actually cope withthese things, and I found that
there's this tool, it's calledMCII, and It's But I was looking
into it and basically the wholething is about imagining the
(05:54):
thing you want to do right?
Like the person you're going tobe, the kind person you have to
be to, to complete this thing,right?
And then trying to think of thesteps that you have to take and
focusing only on those steps.
And that is like, kind of theway that I've read on how you
get out of ruts, which I findreally interesting because I did
try it this week to see if thatworked.
Absolute failure.
(06:15):
did not work at all.
I was like, I'm going to, bethis really studious student
that cares about the work evenif I'm not connected to this
class.
And got burnout.
Almost in two weeks.
Even if I made every step, evenif I was like, only ten minutes,
it just didn't work.
a.m. (06:28):
So, so what you're saying, Sam, is you're, opening up an
aspect of this that didn't even,you know, wasn't even part what
I thinking the topic, right?
So, so, I was thinking about andI think, Kyley, you were
speaking to as well, this sortyou know, pattern in my life, or
like thing I do, right?
But you're interesting a reallyinteresting thing, for me at
least.
Where, you know, it is connectedto issues of progress, right?
(06:51):
It is a lack of, progress in anarea.
I, almost hear what you'resaying.
Like, like.
rut in the sense of stagnation?
Yeah, that fair?
Okay, cool.
I just want clarify that.
I heard that.
a whole nother wrinkle in thisconversation.
Kyley (07:06):
Yeah, I'm glad you separated those.
'cause I definitely see those asdifferent rut has, has motion
for me with No it just is, it'smy Kyley just, we're gonna get
up and do the thing.
We're gonna get up and do thething.
gonna get up and do the thing.
we're get that's In Yeah.
a.m. (07:18):
Yeah.
I'm hearing.
Sam introduced this is, rut.
Like wheels are stuck Yeah.
in the mud and maybe crawlingalong.
Kyley (07:27):
yeah, different kind of frustration.
a.m. (07:32):
Is this your one of these,
Victor (07:33):
Mm
a.m. (07:34):
We We can
Scott (07:36):
probably,
a.m. (07:37):
bring you I,
Scott (07:38):
listen
a.m. (07:38):
of in organically as you so, yeah.
tell.
Victor (07:41):
I didn't have any context for
a.m. (07:43):
yeah, yeah.
Victor (07:44):
was like, let me just jump in.
Maybe I'm just
Kyley (07:46):
just showing up and being like, Yes, we're gonna do a
thing.
It's great.
Victor (07:50):
Yeah.
I've never had a conversationaround ruts and, know, was it
ruts and, resets.
Kyley (07:57):
gotta have the alliteration to really get the
title to
Victor (08:00):
Ah, I was just thinking of the linguistics, you know,
ruts, it's a Down sort ofdepressed sort of state and
resets going back up a little Iappreciate just being here.
a.m. (08:12):
This podcast, Victor, is like everything else.
It's a Trojan horse.
You know, the podcast at leastthis version of the podcast is
an excuse of something thatcritical and we weren't making
enough time for, which isfaculty and administrative staff
and people hanging talking aboutthe but sort of, you broader
(08:33):
pieces around how we about lifeand and then we publish it as
podcast.
But, but really, know, hopefullypeople are getting value it.
I, I, I've, I've someinteresting feedback recently,
so I, I know some people arelistening and, and enjoying it,
(08:55):
but the primary actually give usa, a structured way engage.
Sam (09:00):
I was actually doing more on just social justice but
something I was thinking about,was like, critical pedagogy
which is like, you know, how weteach and all these, these
things, and I was, actuallythinking about, because you've
been in education, One of theresearch things that I, I kind
of pulled up was talking abouthow research and critical
pedagogy, intersects with rutsand these research, and one of
the things that I found, was,When it comes to research and
(09:21):
critical pedagogy a lot of, whenwe're like, understanding, ruts,
it's under, like, involvesrecognizing how educational
practices fall into ruts, right,and how they perpetuate these
traditional methods that are noteffective to engage students,
and doesn't challenge theseexisting power structures in the
classroom.
I was kind of interested since,you've been in education and
you've seen these things and notnecessarily as a teacher, but on
(09:42):
the outside, like, what are yourthoughts on, like, the
connection between, like,critical education, pedagogy
and, and ruts, specifically forstaff and students?
Victor (09:51):
How do we tackle that giant question.
right?
So from an organizationalstandpoint, like I've been part
of an organization where like I,when I started it was like
complete social justice minded,anti racist work and then
seeing.
And how people influence thatsometimes in negative ways.
Sometimes in positive ways, andit's not one or the other.
(10:12):
It can be sort of like movingalong at the same time.
but I've seen it go way down.
right?
so where you can instill socialjustice as like you need to go
into a classroom and have thisthis frame.
But people come to it with, withtheir own biases.
And unless organizationally it'sa sustained sort of work and
(10:35):
pushed, you can cause somereally big harm to the people
you're serving in my case,students, families, the
community as So, unless, again,it's a completely sustained org
wide kind of thing, and beingable to recognize when you're
falling short and working onthose things if there isn't ways
(10:58):
for you to evaluate that andwork on those things
intentionally, then, then youcan cause more harm than, than,
what you started with.
You may just stick to yourtraditional pedagogy of, like,
You get your point A and youneed to get a point b and get
those results, but changing thedynamic and not having a clear
(11:20):
focus and a drive for it, can,in the end, be worse than what
you're currently struggling withor the traditional, way of
looking at I don't know if thatmakes sense, but yeah.
Sam (11:32):
Well, it makes a lot of sense.
it's funny because in theresearch I was was reading and
doing all this fun stuff.
It was, They were actuallytalking about, like, if you're
not constantly challenging thesystems, like these, these, you
know, inequities.
Like, if people don't feel theneed to be involved, like that's
kind of when that, like thatstuck rut happens.
and that's when a reset is,like, necessary to kind of
(11:52):
reassess.
And I think that's kind of whatyou're speaking to.
Like, an education that, like,ruts are harmful not only for,
like, our internal well being,our internal systems, right?
Like, there's something, like,gunking it up, But, like, when
that happens, it can have this,like, micro effect to a macro
and affect not only ourselves,but the people around us, and,
like, kind of poison thesesystems that we want to, like,
support and care about, andthen, effectively, You know,
(12:14):
halt social justice movements.
I don't think that's somethingthat's talked about is, like,
the role of education, and,like, these educators who need
the systemic support and are notgetting it and are falling into
ruts, and need a Reset, and theyhave no space or resources to do
so.
Victor (12:28):
Often times you hear from teachers when you go into
this social justice frame let'sdiscipline let's get rid of
discipline, and let's go intothis restorative mode.
rid of the discipline, and let'sgo into this restorative mode If
teachers don't feel like they'resupported or they're learning
about restorative practices, andthey just fall into this rut of
(12:49):
thinking, students just get todo whatever the hell they want.
We need to come down hard onthem.
And so then you have this wholeother swing in the, opposite
direction you want it to go.
Where it's like, we need more,we can't have the student in
this space.
So you become exclusionaryagain.
cause that's been thetraditional education model
(13:11):
where if, if you come to acommunity and the community
doesn't have buy in into youreducation system, then you have
this oppositional thing wherelike students go into the system
because by law they have to gointo that system.
And then the system is just it'snow recognized as the school to
prison pipeline, right?
(13:32):
It just, becomes like we'rejust, excluding them and
hopefully the criminal justicesystem, will take care of it.
at some point.
And some people are okay withit.
know?
it, luckily the trend has beenin the opposite direction, but
It's still a pretty major partof our society as a whole.
a.m. (13:48):
So, the two you, you know have a much more formal
grounding in, in justice theoryactually.
Sam (13:55):
praxis.
a.m. (13:56):
Yeah, yeah, Yeah, exactly, exactly.
Scott (13:58):
So
a.m. (14:00):
I want want to test something in what think I'm
hearing you say.
One phenomena in organizationsin general on human issues is
the delusion you can done..
And the idea that you can bedone with thing is what creates,
you know, a version right?
And social justice, imagine youcan't be done with it.
(14:25):
It's
Kyley (14:26):
like, oh, we're done.
Great.
a.m. (14:27):
now just execute right?
that part of what what I'mhearing, you know, taking the
approach of there is no done.
It part we do.
Yeah.
Sam (14:38):
Oh absolutely.
I don't know if y'all have everheard the term of like
positionality and reflexivity.
But positionality is kind ofwhen like researchers or people
who doing something kind of lookin themselves and kind of
understand their intersectionalaspects.
Like, what parts of my identityare like affecting what I'm
doing, what I'm teaching, whatI'm looking at, how I choose to
approach these things.
Why I'm choosing these specifictopics right?
And oftentimes when we'retalking about positionality,
(15:00):
it's kind of like just, allright, cool.
I looked at it, I assess it,cool, I understand it, that's
it, right?
That's kind of the perspective.
But then there's this idea, it'slike all right, it doesn't stop
there.
We have what's calledreflexivity.
Which is this active ongoingprocess of looking at how you're
developing things, whether it'sa research project.
curriculum, development, clubwork, anything you're doing, for
anybody, any social justicemovement, even yourself,
(15:21):
whatever you're choosing.
to do, You're constantly lookingat yourselves, your influences,
and how it's affecting everysingle piece of what you're
doing, not just one thing.
And the beautiful part aboutthat is is when you engage with
other individuals Like in thiscollaborative process, you're
doing in a collaborative way.
You're having other peoplechallenge you from the outside,
other people assessing, youknow, what you're looking and
having these open conversations.
(15:41):
that allows you to be moreholistic with what you're
creating for people, but alsoacknowledging, right,
minoritized groups that you maynot be a part of.
right Your voice is going toinherently have a bias.
and when you allow theseindividuals to see, you know,
who you are, this reflexive partwho you are, this reflexive
process, you create somethingholistic in conjunction with
these participants, you know,and like, you're allowing them
(16:03):
to become a piece of that, and Ithink that's a core part of
social justice, is it doesn'tstop.
Like, abolitionism all aboutcreating positive pathways to
success, and positive pathwaysto success are about getting us
the things we need and want.
in life.
Food, water, internet,happiness, joy, community, all
of those Things do not just comeat one step.
They're continuous.
(16:24):
They evolve with the way theworld evolves, with the way
communities evolve, with howthings evolve, right?
With the way we're affected bythese outside factors and
understanding them and beingreflexive about that is an
important part of being, Ithink.
A practitioner of socialjustice, in my opinion.
I'll Let Victor speak more tothat since.
heh.
Victor (16:41):
You said it all.
Sam ha ha said ha ha ha ha andfalling into a rut, right, just
means that those things aren'thappening.
and are but the, reset has tocome with with that
understanding of, you have to bereflective of, of your
practices.
(17:01):
On all levels, you know,whether, teacher or
administrator or student or afamily in the community.
Everybody has to have a piecein, in, how these things shape
out over time.
And I think opening up spaceoften times hits the, the wall
(17:22):
of power.
Of folks who think of themselvesas being holders of power and
being the arbitrators of it.
And when that dynamic sort of Isthat play?
Often times you just get intothis rut again of we're, we're
just gonna be in an oppositionalstance and not really work in,
(17:43):
in tandem.
a.m. (17:43):
you know, kind ruts and resets, right?
reset implications.
Okay, you're in a rut, now, youknow, how do you reset?
But.
I I think I also mentioned inthe kind tee to this is, there
proactive are, practices toavoid the ruts.
Whether, you know, I wasoriginally thinking of in the
context of one's life.
obviously this conversation is,you know I mean, a interest to
(18:05):
us.
Given what we're doing here,right?
But then personally,interesting, because it's new
territory, it continues to be,and what I love about having you
two here is, you know, again,the, the, the the praxis.
In areas we commitment to, youknow, Kyley and I are deeply
committed to, not our field,right?
And so now, so, proactive right,what you just spoke to, what
(18:25):
have you seen effectiveproactive practices in, in these
kind spaces?
And we don't to use an exampleif it weird, but, I'd love use
us an example if we can, right?
But, but generically, practicesto keep this thing alive?
Sam (18:41):
So, when I think about this, often times come back to
social entrepreneurship, a lotof the concepts of social
entrepreneurship, which is a lotof what guides my practice
actually.
And something that came to thisconclusion in a lot of my
readings was like, a couplethings.
One, that questions come fromthe inside, not the out.
Oftentimes with, at least ineducation, we're looking at this
ivory tower and we're oftenspeaking about these things,
(19:05):
these theoretical ideas.
We're talking about minoritizedgroups, but we're not in those
communities actively havingthose conversations.
and I think one of the reallynice things, about working here,
especially with the fact that wehave so many, you know, programs
going on at the same time, youget to actively see how the
things we're implementing affectthese students in real time.
And you get to pivot such a waythat you get to see if a change
(19:26):
happens, and I think that's abig part of me and Victor's role
is, you know, trying to figureout what that looks like for
students.
But, another part is realizingthat communities know what they
need.
You know, you can have all ofthe resources to provide for
that community, but inherentlystudents and communities you're
serving know what they need.
Like if I ask a student, like,what's going on?
Like, where are we at?
It's like, I just have a lotgoing on.
(19:47):
I have school, they can list itout in detail if I ask the right
questions.
And I think that's a big partof, of developing this is, is
asking questions, and asking theright questions, and realizing
that those questions are notgoing to have answers, they're
just going to have morequestions, and, using that.
a.m. (20:04):
That's great.
I mean, that a core do and sofeel good you, you validated
Sam, it
Sam (20:15):
Amazing.
a.m. (20:15):
I And this is aspirational statement, right?
I know that we, you know,there's always work to do.
It's not a, you know, we're notthere.
like, my hope and intention isthis is a question.
Right?
when someone comes in, the placeis question that need to get
really benefits from gettingengaged with.
(20:37):
And so i, I yeah, thank you forresponse.
really, it's and, and it's well,it.
affirming and, and maybeclarifying that, you know, on
the kind of more I don't know ifformal is the word, but I'll use
it.
I don't know, better formalsocial work a similar.
Understanding of how to proceed,you know.
how do you do for bring it backto personal growth, humaning.
Sam (21:01):
I'm going but I'll say for me, after.
I, I tried like all of theresearch that, cause I, I really
wanted to feel what this wasabout with ruts And I tried
that, you know, that MCII, whereI was like, all right, cool,
Like, I am studying prehistoryof gender right now.
I love gender studies.
You would think I would likethis.
I like history and genderstudies.
It's just, I don't.
like the way this professorteaches, right?
But I understand that they havea lot of, different things going
(21:22):
on, right?
And these things are affectingme, right?
So I was like, let me try thisvisualization.
I'm going to do this, it's goingto be great, and, then I try to
think of all the feelingsassociated with it, Like I'm
going to complete theassignment, I'm going to feel
good about myself, right?
And when I really looked at it,I realized that was just
something I was telling myself,like, I'll be honest.
I was on the Kool Aid on thatone.
Full, full stop.
Like, have been this problematicchild since high school where
I've been like, I don't, knowwhy we're learning this.
(21:43):
I hate this thing burn thesystem, like I've always this
person.
And I recently come to thisrealization is like, I am not
that person.
I'm very much against thesystem, but I'm not, against,
like, the system in such a waythat I want it abolished.
Like, never here, I wantreframed in such a way that it's
healthy and holistic, right?
And I don't think that's a bigwant.
But I also recognize, like, thatdoesn't have to come at the cost
(22:05):
of one's mental health.
And I'm seeing a lot of who I amas person and the students I'm
working with.
Like, I've had, students who arelike, I'm not worth anything.
if I don't get into an Ivyleague.
And the way I look, them, like,are you me?
like, whoa, This is a trip, andI got over my burnout.
because What I started to do isjust recognize, like, this.
this doesn't serve me.
Like, this doesn't serve me inthe way that I need.
(22:27):
Like, I'm not gonna be, my worthis not gonna be determined by
these grades, by this thing, I'mdoing, However, I can take this
experience for what it is,acknowledge that I'm just not
here for it, acknowledge thatwhat I necessarily need is just
this degree to get to thispoint, but I can explore in such
a way that I, like, in the waythat I want, So I went to my
professor and I was like,listen, I'll be honest with you,
(22:47):
I care nothing about yourreading.
I don't care.
But this one thing you gave me,I loved.
And, I went through your archiveof work, and here's what I loved
about what you did.
You're a this is what I'mlooking for.
Is that possible?
And they lit up.
They were like, absolutely.
I'll send you these extraarticles.
And I was like, cool.
This is like 30 articles yousent me.
And I am willing to read everysingle one.
(23:09):
That is more than the reading.
that I have gotten for thisclass.
so far.
Because what I recognized islike, I needed pathway that was
different, having that pathwayallowed me to learn the same
thing.
And I think just when comes toruts with ourselves, it's
recognizing that you don't haveto follow the same path as
everyone else.
You can have your routines, youcan, you can have your ruts.
(23:30):
you can acknowledge where thatcomes from for you You can
acknowledge that, you know,maybe you're receiving these
outside ideas of what you needto be, of who you need to be,
and step away from that andrealize, like, maybe the thing
you just need to do is justlike, punch in, you know, what I
mean punch in that thing, thatday, like, whatever.
that thing is, just send it, andthen find your pathway in a
different way.
Like, there are some things wejust have to do.
(23:51):
There are some students who arenot going to like math class, as
long as they find a way toengage in that, that's a way
that's meaningful to them,right?
Whether that's meeting with yourfriend, and just getting through
one math problem.
that You really found tough,Like, that's one step to finding
a pathway that works for You Youmay not like it by the end of
it, you might be like, I neverwant to touch math again.
but you took it in such a way.
that was meaningful to you, andcreated pathway that mattered to
(24:14):
you, and you learned somethingnew.
Like, maybe math wasn't you, butyou figured out, like, hey, I'm
really good at getting throughthis textbook and figuring this
out to the point that it's like,all right, leave me alone.
Like, That's your thing.
You know what I mean?
And I say that students, here.
There are some times where I waslike, they did not want to do
the design course, some of them.
They were like, I'm just, thisis not for me.
But when they were challenged,it's like, okay, cool.
like, what are some othercontexts we can put this into?
(24:34):
They just flourished.
You when they were given, whenour Spanish students were given
different contexts.
to explore these concepts, theyflourished.
Like, I was challenged withquestions every day when we
create different spaces.
you can do that for yourself.
You can recreate yourenvironment for yourself.
I think that's, that would be mything.
I don't know how everyone elsegets through it, but that's,
that's how I got through mine.
a.m. (24:54):
that last sentence the, the last few words, recreate
your space.
that, that big thing for mephysical changes.
Like, I if I feel that I'm inyou know, know pattern that I'm
just, you know, I will physicalbefore I do anything else.
Like, so literally like, stuffsounds dumb on from the outside,
would literally shoes that feel,make feel, feel different.
(25:17):
I will change my exerciseroutine, I will, you know,
whatever.
then my environment, I will justchange.
I'll like move around and I'llwhatever.
And so, it's all I, I'm just soin, in, you know, and, and just
kind you know, more embodiedthan anything else.
And so that's, one of mypractices to reset is just
physically change things, youknow, both in myself and my
(25:40):
environment.
I find that's effective at for,you know, coming back to being
present and, and, andredesigning.
Sam (25:48):
Yeah.
but that's you acknowledging whoyou are, you know?
what I mean?
Like the things that work foryou and that's a big part of it.
I don't a lot of people realizeit's like, alright, I have to do
what all these like grinderyouTubers I gotta be this
entrepreneur, I gotta, like, Igotta do, like, sell shoes, I
gotta do, you know, whateveryour thing is, it's like, that's
great.
Do that thing For you.
as long as it brings you.
joy in the way that works foryou.
(26:08):
That's reorganizing your space,if that's moving your furniture
at 3 a.
m.
Do it as long as the thing thatyou want to get done gets done.
That's, that's all that matters.
And you enjoy that process, evenif it's the smallest amount.
a.m. (26:22):
Yeah.
Human beings, and we you know,because we did innovation work,
we say this a lot.
Human lot.
do not benefit from practicesmindset.
Machines You know, machineryfrom beings wither in a mindset,
know, and that's what I'mhearing say the kind of
influences.
I'm like, here's You me.
Scott (26:45):
What I'm hearing is, setting systems where you can
have reliable feedback fromgroups.
but then, somehow, you know,pivoting that to be internal
feedback.
Like take your own temperature.
kind of thing, like what's going
Sam (27:02):
absolutely.
a.m. (27:04):
The, the on.
could, you know, people onYouTube that could be useful.
And so few of them.
Hopefully we do some of thisactually some of the feedback
I've gotten recently, I think weare doing some, some of this at
least in very narrow way ispeople give you best practice on
to do, but people who give youquestions and inquiries.
That, that then invites you to,know, find your own answers to
(27:25):
to things.
I mean, what you know, I don'tknow, good philosophy, there
such thing?
The handful of, you philosophyuseful is what It doesn't answer
a damn thing and but, but, butopens you know.
It creates an invitation to, to,you know, okay, Now what what
Kyley (27:44):
Actually, something, something that you said, is like
the idea of being able to getfeedback.
And I remember likecontemplating ruts and times in
my life where I've wantedresets, but I've also been just
like alone.
And When by yourself, like Ithink that's where like, you're
speaking to the philosophy comesinto place, where it's like at
(28:04):
least gives you someone else tobe asking questions.
And whether you're at leastbouncing your, your your
thoughts off someone else'sideas at least.
because I find that, like, ifI'm, contemplating my existence
by myself, I gently spiral intoinsanity.
Gently.
soft.
Just like, it's not like it's anautomatic thing, but like, I
(28:26):
start getting caught in my ownloops.
I start getting caught in my ownthought processes and without a
path to, to to explore those orexpand them.
Like, that's when it's justlike, you just I just keep
getting wrapped up in me.
And that hasn't been useful, andso the reading, and the
journaling, and some of that,being able to bounce your ideas,
at least, off of a differentperspective is huge for, for,
(28:48):
me, understanding and findingways to shift, which is kind of
what sometimes, how I use, likeYouTube videos and stuff where
it's like, I don't know thatyou're right but at least you
give me another, like, thoughtprocess.
around this.
Sam (28:58):
that's a great DBT skill right there.
like, with myself, is, whendialectical therapy.
you start to it's, lot of peoplefall into that exact thing.
you know.
it's it's a lot of like, allright, like if I keep
questioning, thing, if I keepbashing this thing, I'm going to
figure it out, but, you know.
like, sometimes, like,continuing question thing is not
going to be the solution, youknow?
And I think like a lot of peopleI think This is something I've
(29:19):
seen in, like, at least.
with myself, is you questionsomething so much, you start to
make facts out of those feelingsand questions And you start to,
like, Like, well, if thisquestion came up here, and this
thing came here, And Thereforethis thing is truth therefore
everybody hates me, And I'm notgonna be good this thing, and
gonna fail, And I'm gonna behorrible, and Oh my god, why
would I even do this?
And then you're like great yourbut, like, usually what takes is
(29:39):
just, like, you going up tofriend, like, Am I bad at this?
And your friends like, no! no,dude.
Why I love you and you're like,oh, yeah, like Yeah, I can do
that thing like that.
Yeah, that's that's good.
And I think just that key partof it is I don't think people
acknowledge that.
but That part is like, a bigpart of getting over your rut is
having someone to just tell youlike, dude, do the thing.
Who cares if you're bad?
at it?
Do the thing.
(30:00):
Like, I, I'm terrible ropescourses.
I'm terrified of heights.
Recently, my my partner who'salso scared of heights, like,
let's just go do one.
And I was like, I'm how am Igonna do this?
I'm terrified of heights.
And I just, I was just, I like,you know what, this is my
tactic, I'm just gonna look at apole and just go for it, Like,
just go for it, and I wentthrough the whole course, and I
was like, I could never seemyself doing that.
that would have been a rut me,like, I felt terrible that day,
I was like, oh my god, I'mterrible at school, I'm never
(30:22):
gonna do this thing, and I'mlike, I just had a different
perspective, which was high inthe air, terrified for my life,
but I survived because I hadthis little cable on me, you
know what I mean?
I trusted that cable, in thesame way I trust my support
group, I trust my friends.
You have to trust yourself, yourthoughts, and your worth, you
know?
You are able To do something
Scott (30:42):
Big part of trust yourself
Victor (30:43):
Quiet the inner critic
Sam (30:45):
like, thank you for coming.
I love that you're here, I callhim, Jeff.
thank you for love that you'rehere.
Take hike.
a.m. (30:51):
I, I, I to slightly challenge that Victor, like, I
don't think I, I find that Ihave found for myself any
attempts to quiet only make itlouder.
And so it's, it's for me notquieting the inner critic, it's
befriending the inner critic,understanding what, what wants.
Why?
Because I found that all my likeI get one, the most common one
(31:13):
me, I've got so much evidencethat point to, to my, for myself
that I know my shit.
And that I'm really good infront people.
And yet, every single like weeksago I did that panel.
Every single time, I haven'tnamed my voice, but I got one 1
of my voices.
pops and it says the same thingfor the dude, you're not ready.
(31:35):
You didn't prepare this.
You didn't even think about thisproperly.
You're not ready.
This is This is where you'regonna found this is the one
they're find out you know you'redoing.
Like that guaranteed 30 and ofdoing this And can't silence to
your point with Jeff like I canbefriend it I gonna send like
(31:56):
what that voice is about justtrying to protect and can I can
see the origin of and what youknow formed and all this right?
And so know again for me I don'tyou know live in anybody else's
head me, it's like I've foundtrying to silence it futile and
eventually sort And thenreassuring no, no, we're cool.
(32:23):
Right.
Like I get it, I Thank you.
absolutely to concerned, butwe're good.
Sam (32:31):
That's that childhood wounded self, you know what I
mean?
That inherent fear that we won'tbe accepted, but we're human,
social creatures, of course,like, we're all going make
mistakes go through thesethings, it's important that we
acknowledge that those woundsexist.
And, this is a thing I don'tthink a lot of people recognize,
a friend said this to me, andGod bless her, her name is Jill.
love her to death.
she once said to me, she waslike, you are never alone in
(32:52):
life.
Because, right, your adult, selfhas built all of these things,
all of these skills, and isperfectly capable of doing these
things.
you are now the adult.
that childhood you needed.
Remember that.
Because you, adult, you, willalways have your back in the
ways that are most necessary.
(33:13):
for the you that you needed.
You became the adult that youneeded then.
And you will always strive tobe.
that better person for yourself.
And that changed my life.
a.m. (33:21):
Is such an you to family like kind Sort to like you know,
whatever if really look is someversion of that fear.
(33:42):
Mm-Hmm.
that's here.
And be version you two weeks agobecause it in what right.
And, and need not challenged,can, you know, it certainly is.
And fascinating It's Oh this,this me having right.
(34:05):
I've, I've not encounteredbefore.
But previous of and freaked
Sam (34:15):
Hmm.
be this person who surpassesthis thing.
and I think that's like, Ithink, in reading this I feel
like that's what that MCII islike trying talk about, is like,
visualize, like, the you who gotthrough this, connect to that
person.
Like, that's great for somepeople, it doesn't work for me.
But just simply acknowledging,like, you may not like that
(34:35):
thing.
There's all of these mixed partsof yourself, this intersectional
parts of yourself that arecoming.
into play Acknowledging them isokay.
and acknowledging them, maybe,like, you just don't like, that
thing, okay, you know what Ithat's
a.m. (34:51):
you've you've enough, I to mental and implementation.
An NIH article
Sam (34:57):
is
a.m. (34:57):
the first thing that
Sam (34:58):
popped
a.m. (34:58):
up.
Alright,
Sam (34:58):
so Yeah, mental contrasting.
Yeah, it's just like, oh, do youwant to be like, I don't know,
in a rock band?
Okay, cool.
To be in a rock band, you haveto be a singer.
To be a singer, you have to dosinging lessons.
And like, Imagine how greatyou'll feel when you get the
first singing lesson.
I don't work for me.
I'm a pessimist.
a.m. (35:15):
mean, on first blush a, perhaps rigorous or, science y
version of what people talkabout with manifestation right.
Sam (35:24):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Sorry.
rolling my
a.m. (35:27):
take going I'm manifesting,
Sam (35:30):
Just I'll just, manifest it.
Just believe it'll happen.
yeah.
like, no.
absolutely is I respect thoseresearchers.
but absolutely.
not.
a.m. (35:39):
I knew think I had somebody close to me, had a
conversation about thismanifesting thing because she
this.
and, And, I liked her take onit.
because just, do, just do thework.
All right.
but, but, she had reallyinteresting on that and I was
like, that do.
take was what, what, for her,you know, meant by manifesting
(36:02):
is the thing that I'm out right?
So you know, a job or whatever,right?
It's, I'm doing I'm not justpassively, I'm doing the my
engagement it as You know, theof the day, my thing is, to
express having So, proactivelyexpressing gratitude for having
(36:25):
thing.
And then still doing get Andthat, fascinating.
Like, energetically, can behindlike, it's, expressing,
basically stepping, and so towhat saying, I made the
connection before, it basicallyshe's doing, I, you that can
frame she's stepping self, whogotten is expressing gratitude
(36:47):
for but doing the present.
Like, I as, if nothing else, a
Sam (36:53):
absolutely.
a.m. (36:54):
You know?
to keep from at and to groundedalready, know, but do to get
there.
Scott (37:04):
Yeah, I think that's totally how I perceive it as
well.
I've been doing working withtherapists, You kind of, works
that way for a long time now,almost 20 years.
And it's the sense of in a way,it's cultivating humility.
When you're looking at ruts anddeficits and stuff in your life,
and figuring out what might bethe way that you want to head,
and, in my experience, is like,you know, it's not necessarily
(37:27):
putting a picture of a mansionon your vision board and waiting
for it to come.
It's more about like puttingyourself in the place where
you're open to try somethingthat you might not have even
thought of in the first place.
and you're thankful for theopportunity and if it doesn't
work.
out.
You just kind of pivot and keepgoing.
Cultivating that humility andbefriending that inner critic, I
(37:49):
think, is part of it too.
Like you said, the inner criticbasically the seed of humility
you know, going forward as well.
People who learn how tocompletely silence it and ignore
it are the ones that are tearingthe world apart.
a.m. (38:02):
Because they're not silencing it, right?
It's, still acting out throughthem.
They're just ignoring
Scott (38:08):
They're ignoring it.
And continuing as, like, well,especially in social justice,
too, you know, like, people comein, and Like, I'm gonna fix
everything.
I'm gonna fix this whole place.
and then the city, and then thecountry.
and those are the ones that arelike, doing the most harm, I
think.
You know, if you look at it froma very High, high level.
Sam (38:27):
I, I don't know if of y'all have ever read, like, Peggy
McIntosh's Invisible knapsack ofPrivilege.
But, oh, it's you've read it,but
a.m. (38:36):
I the is worth alone.
Sam (38:38):
No please, because It's it's great, just, all right.
so, this is just like the recapof it.
but Basically, it's just thiswhite woman who's like, You
know, like, we're all like,inherently like racist, like we
all have really biases, youknow, we got to be careful, you
know, you be careful all thetime, like, you know all just,
you know, we always think likewe're like, racist, like I'm
colorblind, like, no, hun, like,you gotta, you gotta acknowledge
(38:59):
it, right?
So that's what she's saying,right?
She's like, You know, sometimesyou, you think, oh, you know,
you, invite your, like,colleagues in who are, like,
people of color, and you'relike, know, come discuss, and
they'll, like, start sayingsomething, and, like, Kyley be
like, yeah, like, okay, Kyley,cool, you said your thing.
anyway, so, back to me, and alot of people don't realize they
do this.
and so, she's like, you know,we've gotta recognize, like, our
inherent privilege, even if weunderstand these social justice
concepts, we understandintersectionality we understand,
(39:20):
you know, feminism?
Like, all of these things aregreat.
Like, my favorite thing is like,people with patriarchy.
People are like, I know whatpatriarchy is! And I had this
There was this really great guythe other day that was Like,
patriarchy is when men, imposeon women.
I was like, I can't wait youstart reading about same sex,
like, patriarchy when thatcomes, that's be great.
But, and so then it was rightgreat, because She read whole
and I was like, wow, this is sogreat.
Wow, like this really taught usabout, like, you know,
(39:41):
addressing our inherent biases,right?
This, this this this, whitewoman, this other white woman, I
forget their name, but it's areally great article.
It's addressing like, whiteintersectionality from, like, a
poor white trash perspective andit.
was a response to PeggyMcIntosh's thing.
It was like, that's great.
I love what you have to say, butwhat if you're the person who's
like, doesn't have the abilityto have that educated?
(40:02):
What if you're the person who'slower class and like, you know,
considered trash by society andlike, you're basically treated
the same way that you treatyour, like, colleagues of color.
Like, you're being treated thesame way that you treat, like,
these racists treat people ofcolor because you're considered
less than.
What then?
Where did your invisible one at?
I have to, be like, I have tofeel bad about myself and
consistently apologize.
It was this.
really great, like, dichotomybetween the two, and I think
(40:24):
that's just, like, a reallygreat point to, like, social
justice.
It's like a lot of people arelike, yeah, I'm gonna, I'm gonna
fix the thing, like, I've readall these books.
I have a PhD, I can fix thething.
And It's like and then they getto the ivory tower, and they're
like, wow, the view up here isgreat.
And they go back down to thecommunity.
And the community is like, Dude,you're terrible.
Leave.
(40:44):
And I did all the work! byyourself without listening to
anyone else.
And like, then you created a rutfor your system because you cut
out everyone.
You started living in a bubble.
That's the problem.
And I don't think a lot of,people realize, like, like we've
been saying, everything iscontinuous.
You can't just stop, but youcan't just think you just made
it to the top.
Like, oh, you manifested thisgreat job, you did all these
(41:06):
things, you're gonna fix.
Like, you know, like that meme.
where It's like, we did it.
We solved racism.
It's over.
It's like, we're never going toexperience it again.
Like that's never going tohappen.
Like you can't solve racism, butyou can address it in such a
way, right?
That you can give voice to thepeople who can help us move,
towards more positive pathways.
But we're never going to solveit.
It's just not going to be athing.
But we can start to understandit in such a way that we can
(41:28):
give more people the tools toaddress like these microcosms of
it.
a.m. (41:32):
Been here in the background thinking like, there
is no done.
I think, think I don't I'm, youunduly we do least a decent,
hopefully a good job with withsome these things in And the
conversation is not overt forstudents.
yet.
(41:53):
and one of the things that i'dlove to out for next year is do
we have the conversation be moreovert theoretical there's more
about like that's like And too,I, I'm not suggesting we solve
for live on, But, but it just,just, you it to me you know,
(42:18):
part the progression of, thesethings, right?
Is, to, you're using as a ofengagement.
can you make it, know, you toolsthe hands of?
them and them, you know I'm nothow in everything else.
got get done and we don't needto solve that's what I'm
thinking.
Kyley (42:38):
I think part of it is, as we expand, like, as we start
locking in the.
the product, the process of thething.
It lets us opportunity one, tofeel comfortable with that,
which I think is we're finallygetting to.
and then lets us then work onhow do we make connections with
people, Cause like these peoplein the room can have a
conversation, I don't know whatthe other conversations is
(42:59):
outside, like how do you have aconversation, where you can
bring other people in otherperspectives and also feel
comfortable that they.
They can approach it in a waythat's thoughtful.
and curious and not from theirivory tower.
or whatever it may be.
a.m. (43:11):
So to
Kyley (43:12):
that.
Yeah.
a.m. (43:12):
and what this Right.
Right.
Well, that's, and that's kind ofwhat I'm pointing to.
where It's like we all have,Victor's education manager.
Right?
He has a very specific, likethat's his role him, him
bringing up this topic andconversation has automatically
brings a flavor, me bringing itautomatically.
favor, You bring itautomatically a flavor.
And finding people who don'thave already set up identity for
(43:37):
them can be potentially a usefulway to approach that.
You know, and then thoseconversations, we can help wrap
them in.
Victor (43:45):
Even just posing the question to Students and letting
them lead is, I think, I've seenwork magic.
in the past, know, which iswhere students here's where
restorative practices are.
How do you envision them?
Here's what they, what they saythey are what do you envision in
your space here at school?
(44:07):
and just allowing room for theirvoice too.
to have impact I think would anapproach.
a.m. (44:13):
I had woman tuesday, introduced by a friend.
thank you, Joan.
I know Joan She's great.
staff.
be to, she's with us.
And, most of her work is in herhistorical work is in
non-profit, in in and five yearstook a swing know, kind of a for
profit, for profit role.
(44:33):
and, and considering her thing.
But, her big emphasis, Insteadof questions, she asked me
around, you what do makingthings, right?
how Are you engaging in designstudents on, you know on the I
said, you again, is one of manythings we, have as an intention
(44:57):
and an an approach, but farformal, you know so, so my point
just, there may be to, to, in ofto as to conversation or in
addition to conversations, in,find that the we start design in
source is can we introduce in,you some get you know,
(45:22):
restorative justiceconversations that context of
design, right?
Like those some of and then toyour I it's absolutely bringing,
somebody her As You you rolebased with But to conversation
and they're vetted.
That kind thing is pointing toaround evolve would be amazing
(45:44):
to do.
I forget to do, soundsaspirational.
I think we have obligation tomoving more and more in
directions.
We've earned, you the, the we'vedone the become stable.
We've done the to, you producethe kind outcomes that get
funded.
And think now we obligation tomore, you formalize these sort
(46:04):
things.
You know, noone going to dingfor not doing it.
But I think we collectivelywould lose interest if we
didn't.
Kyley (46:12):
Had a tactical idea that I was like what if we bring back
students from the past and havethem come in and do a, do a
design sprint or hackathonaround our program, ones who've
completed successfully haveshown commitment.
Have pizza, and start some ofthose conversations with the
students that are like, in itfor the game.
a.m. (46:28):
Yeah, I, I think all that, about, know, there's about body
of alumni point.
There's backlog of my so many ofyou know, god I just ran one
yesterday an event we're when,when when, you Tuesday has been
on hiatus for a very long time.
Like, I know, will start, butwe've who outside the design.
(46:52):
and the whatever or, you humanpractitioners, who are really
reliable for, you know, actuallylistening to human beings.
And so we any opportunity atthis point.
now sort of managing thesethings in a way ahead you
jeopardize you know, the resultsand kind process stuff getting.
(47:14):
And then take these sort and,and, you manage them in a way
that we don't overburden andthen can't do anything.
Am at a in my life, Sam, where,I want do much for who've read
books move this forward.
So who 40 of of can do work.
(47:39):
Man, we had an opportunity.
We could have some really weirdsign off.
that we said that we do everysingle day that Victor would
have to do.
we didn't.
Nobody, nobody thought about it.
Sam (47:48):
He's on the mic now.
Victor (47:51):
Go forth and be merry is one of the good ones
a.m. (47:55):
it.
That's a podcast.
That's what we do
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