Sit on the Couch and Stare, Sisyphus & Omelas, and "As I Ebb’d with the Ocean of Life"

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As I Ebb’d with the Ocean of Life
BY WALT WHITMAN

4
 Ebb, ocean of life, (the flow will return,)
 Cease not your moaning you fierce old mother,
 Endlessly cry for your castaways, but fear not, deny not me,
 Rustle not up so hoarse and angry against my feet as I touch you or gather from you.

I mean tenderly by you and all,
I gather for myself and for this phantom looking down where we lead, and following me and mine.

Me and mine, loose windrows, little corpses,
 Froth, snowy white, and bubbles,
 (See, from my dead lips the ooze exuding at last,
 See, the prismatic colors glistening and rolling,)
 Tufts of straw, sands, fragments,
 Buoy’d hither from many moods, one contradicting another,
 From the storm, the long calm, the darkness, the swell,
 Musing, pondering, a breath, a briny tear, a dab of liquid or soil,
 Up just as much out of fathomless workings fermented and thrown,
 A limp blossom or two, torn, just as much over waves floating, drifted at random,
 Just as much for us that sobbing dirge of Nature,
 Just as much whence we come that blare of the cloud-trumpets,
 We, capricious, brought hither we know not whence, spread out before you,
 You up there walking or sitting,
 Whoever you are, we too lie in drifts at your feet.

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This episode navigates through themes of questioning certainty, embracing simplicity, activism, suffering, privilege, and societal dynamics in a digital age. They discuss the importance of internal validation, mindfulness, deep listening, and balancing engagement with solitude. The group explores the paradoxes within societal structures and individual impact in fostering innovation and maintaining humanity amidst digital distractions and societal pressures.

You can find a.m. on Instagram and TikTok at @absurdwisdom. We are produced and distributed by DAE Presents, the production arm of DAE (@dae.community on Instagram and online at mydae.org).

The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the speakers and do not necessarily reflect the views or positions of any entities they represent. While we make every effort to ensure that the information shared is accurate, we welcome any comments, suggestions, or correction of errors.

You can contact us at [e-mail].

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
No, is to be within a specificdiscipline, a specific world, a

(00:34):
specific reality to know isextremely useful for getting
things done within thatparticular discipline or world
or reality to be an effectivedoctor or a pastry chef or a
financial analyst.
There's much that is critical toknow, but knowing by its nature
is bounded by, and in factreinforcing of, the reality
within which it occurs.

(00:55):
For 25 years, I've worked withexecutives in large
organizations, grad students,tech entrepreneurs, religious
leaders, and no doubt mytoughest client, myself.
I'm developing the capacity toexplore what lies beyond
knowing, beyond certainty at apractical level.
This work is required for thingslike innovation, but more
importantly, I found that thisinquiry is critical for

(01:18):
maintaining one's humanity.
Oh, and if you're generousenough to be listening to these
conversations, I respectfullysubmit that at any point, if you
feel you understand what I'msaying, you're not listening
deeply enough.
And the voices in today'sconversation are Kyley
Komschlies, Sam Ascencio, Andour producer, as always, is

(01:40):
Scott Amore.
all are colleagues of mine atDAE.
Let's listen in.

a.m. (01:44):
I went into Manhattan on a self care day, which basically
meant going to see, you know, itusually means either going to
see a movie or some theater inthis case.
It was a movie that I can't seehere.
Wim Wenders' new film, PerfectDays.
And again, I lead a reallysimple life by design.
And in recent years, you knowparticularly with this thing,
I've sort of narrowed it downeven further and just really
gotten very clean with, youknow, how I spend my time and my

(02:07):
energy and my focus and, andminimal clutter.
Like my, my closets are shockingif you were to look at them in
terms of, you know, just largecollection of black t-shirts
some jeans and sport coats.
And that includes sort ofpsychological clutter, right?
Like keeping a, you know, cleanpsychological space as well.
And this film just reallypresents for me like, Damn, I am

(02:27):
like still so far away fromwhere I can see to be in terms
of just, just, just, you know,being present on the planet and
just focusing on that and, and,not getting distracted by all
the things there are to bedistracted by.
And It got me thinking that,that like if, you know, it's so
cliche to say, and it's acontradiction, because we get so

(02:49):
much messaging right now aboutminimalism and simplicity, and
the messages are all additionalclutter.

Kyley (02:56):
Who's your tool for?

a.m. (02:57):
Yep.
Here's your tool.
Here's your workshop.
Here's your app.
Motivational poster.
Yeah, well, I mean, we're pastposters, now it's apps, you
know, and it's AI backed apps tohelp you be more minimal.
And It's, it's just more, youknow, it's, it's, the
contemporary pharmaceuticalindustry, the pharmaceutical
industry, the new pharmaceuticalindustry, is digital
applications.

(03:18):
We have a digital pill for whatails you.
and the thing that everyoneseems to feel either overtly or
under the surface, you know,where not aware is overwhelm,
stress, overwhelm, overwhelm,overwhelm.
And what we're doing with it iswhat we did with, you know,
biological states and, and, andpharma intervention starting in
the nineties where, you know,just overmedicate as a means to

(03:38):
tamp down symptoms, whileletting the underlying causes
just, you know, keep festering.
So that's what's bouncing aroundin my head this week.
And, and Wim's gorgeous film.
Go see it, go see it.
Ridiculous soundtrack too, likejust a bunch of Lou Reed and,
and just, yeah, anyway, sothat's it.
That's where my head's been atis, is A, just personal
realization that, that as sortof simple as my life is, there's

(04:00):
still lots and lots and lots ofstuff to strip away.
And this, you know, not that Ineeded more concerns about the
world, but, but, but just.
It's my observation about theworld that we are fully into a,
you know, digital pill world asa solution to the mental
clutter, and it's just, againself defeating.

Kyley (04:18):
I sat on the couch and stared at a wall for an hour
this morning.

a.m. (04:21):
Yeah, man.
How great is that?
I do that.
I'm sorry.

Kyley (04:26):
I, my, my insides just turned off and I was like, I
need to exercise.
I need to move.
I need to make food.
And for whatever reason, theonly thing I could do and not
like overwhelmed, but like mybody just demanded that I sit
and stare for an hour.
Yeah.

a.m. (04:43):
The body needs to move.
We are designed to move, but wemove dysfunctionally.
It's competitive and performancebased.
And the body needs to be still.
And we do that dysfunctionally.
It's like exhausted sprawling onthe couch while watching
something.
Or collapsing to bed aftertaking some pills to help you
sleep.

Kyley (05:01):
This was an active nice cross legged posture, back up,
stare at a wall, and just let mymind just run its course.
And by the end of it, my bodyfelt like a body again.
And my mind was significantlymore calm than it's been in
three, four weeks.
To expand on your, your pointwas, yeah, I've been in a
similar thing where like mybrain and my body and my insides

(05:24):
and my, everything I have goingon, I've just been moving so
fast.
But I don't actually get toenjoy.
And my natural tendency is tojust shuck things.
But I also know that I need tobe careful with that because I
go the other route where I'm.
living in a car somewhere withnothing but a journal and a
Kindle and I can't, can't existin, in today's society of having

(05:48):
to show up to work clean andstuff.
So A question that I have fromthat,

Sam (05:51):
and

Kyley (05:52):
this is the question that I'm asking myself I think in
general is with the work that Ido here And the people that I
like, the desire to make friendsand build relationships and
build community.
It sometimes feels like the onlyway to participate is to play.
And playing puts me into aspiral of overwhelm and all this
stuff going on and finding toolsto cope as opposed to building a

(06:16):
life that supports healthyliving.
I don't know what to do withthat yet.

a.m. (06:19):
watching stuff, they're doing

Kyley (06:21):
things, they're struggling at work, they're
overwhelmed, they're stressed,they're eating a quick lunch
together because it's the onlytime they can do stuff, they're
texting, they're on dating apps,they're, like even work here, I
got emails, I got teams, I gotthis, I got this, and I, I, I,
Sometimes, I mean there is afear, there's a genuine fear

(06:42):
that if I unplug, I don't get toplay.

a.m. (06:45):
But again, when you say you don't get to play, what does
that mean?
Play in the

Kyley (06:47):
game of, like, this life.
Like, the work that I do.
Ah, participate.
Participate, yeah.
Okay, play

a.m. (06:52):
in the sense of participating in the game.

Kyley (06:54):
Yeah, like, I am, I am actively shucking the rules that
have been established in thegame.
And I no longer get to be in thegame anymore.
And that's been my experience inmy life, where like, when I have
lived simply, I have been alone.
And when I don't live simply, orwhen I engage with people, I get
wrapped up.
And what is the middle ground?

Sam (07:13):
I'm glad you asked the question of what does play mean,
because I was thinking that samething.
And, Like I also get reallywrapped up in people and it has
not fared well for me.
I mean I Got rid of snapchat,Instagram, Facebook.
Like I have stuff, but I thinkthe only thing I keep is like
LinkedIn really Yeah, that'slike the only thing I use And I

(07:33):
think TikTok is the only thing Ihave and like You Yeah, I kind
of felt that because I didn'twant to have TikTok to begin
with and people like all mystudents would constantly be
like Like well, at least when Iused to work colleges, they'd be
quoting TikToks.
I'd be like you seen that oneTikTok.
I'm like No Well, I haven't seenthat one TikTok and at some
point I was like, I can't evenOpen the conversation unless I
quote this one TikTok abouttables being broken.

(07:54):
That's fine It's just just buyinto this and now I find myself
scrolling it whenever I don'twant to have like conversations
or I don't want to like I haveconflict.
I just, I literally would justopen TikTok in the middle of
argument and walk away andthat's not healthy, but it's
just like, I don't know how elseto cope in this situation.
I don't know how else to likeexpress this and I don't know
how else to engage in a way thatlike feels like this is conflict

(08:17):
is going to be healthy.
And recently I had aconversation with my therapist
where I was talking about howstressed I am with people around
me and like how overwhelmed I amand he was like yeah, like, you
know, like when you're in anenvironment that's not conducive
to those things, when you'relike a healthy person and you do
healthy habits and people aren'tused to healthy habits, they
shut you out.
That's what happens because, youknow, they're not used to that.

(08:38):
They're not, that comes intoconflict with the being of, you
know, what the world is around.
And so when you are trying to dolike these healthy things, it
can kind of throw people off,especially if they're not used
to that.
And so that's kind of what comesto mind for me is, you know,
like if they interact withsomeone who's like, yeah, do you
like do this?
No, I just journal and hang outin the woods, man.
That just, it's.

(08:58):
It throws them for a loopbecause I don't think they're, I
think in a, in a deep way, likewe're all focused on talking
about ourselves, so they don'treally want to know about your
woods thing, man.
They just, they'd rather talk toyou about what, you know, one
singular thing you can share andkind of focus in on that.
So I think I agree with you, itbecomes really isolating that
respect because I think we'renot ready to kind of be
challenged and open up to otherpeople.

a.m. (09:21):
An addict considers a conversation about,sobriety to
be an act of violence.

Kyley (09:25):
Go to a bar with friends and tell them you don't drink
tonight.
Yeah.

a.m. (09:27):
Well, but even, I mean, that's like a, like a casual,
like, I'm going to go drinking,right?

Kyley (09:31):
That was more like just a, a linking it to a relatable.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Like that's a, that's arelatable.

a.m. (09:36):
But I, I, listen, I do think, I don't, I don't think
it's, it's hyperbolic to saythat, that, that this is a
culture built on addiction.
In part, right?
Yeah.
And, you know, I am not aclinical psychologist or a
psychiatrist or in any way amental health expert.
And so what I'm about to say isjust, like, layperson talk.
Like, addiction, you know, Isort of think of in part, you
know, it's biologicalcomponents, it's complex, right?

(09:58):
But in part, it's the fillingyourself with something that
you're very happy with.
That it's a substitute for whatit is you're needing.
And that something eitheranesthetizes or alters your
state to a degree that thatactual need, you know, is, is
suppressed, right?
I think there may be a, youknow, again, not maybe there are
biological components there, youknow.

(10:20):
But, well, let me say the effectthat it has.
is certainly a certain kind ofThere's a lot of that in the
society around stuff,achievement, money, etc.
Where none of those things havestuff.
It's great, I like my stuff.
Some of my stuff.
Trying to have less and lessstuff.
But yeah, I like my notebook.
I like my notebook.
That's stuff, right?

(10:40):
Nothing wrong with stuff,nothing wrong with money,
nothing wrong with achievement.
But it's engaged with as asubstitute for something, I
think.
And so when you talk to peopleabout their addictions, that
they don't realize theiraddictions.
You know?
And talk about Sitting for anhour and doing nothing.
Are you depressed?
Something's wrong?

Kyley (10:55):
Well, this is actually a, a, a

Sam (10:56):
That's the first thing that came to my mind.

Kyley (10:57):
Well, it's, it's oddly a solution for that in some
capacity.
This is, this is me coming outof what a depressive state is.
The ability to sit quietly andnot have to do or fill.

a.m. (11:07):
It's my Saturdays, you know, like I, I, I, I yeah, I
have this like Saturday routine.
It's like the farmer's market.
You know, I've talked about it alot.
I'm so in love with City SeedFarmer's Market, didn't you name
it?
Uh, The Worcester SquareFarmer's Market.
And it's like, you know, youwalk there, spend an hour, hour
and a half there, talk to peopleand get my produce, maybe some
bread, you know, come home,spend a couple hours cooking and

(11:29):
then I just sit.
And like, drink some coffee.
And the food's prepped for likethe next two days basically, you
know.
If I'm going out, the food'sprepped for like three or four
days because, you know, it'sgonna be like extra.
And then, you know, then I'll goto the gym and I got plans that
night, whatever.
But there's always just like themarket, some food prep, and then
just sitting with a cup ofcoffee.
Just nothing, just sittingthere.

(11:51):
Not meditating, it's not likethat, just sitting there.
Just existing.
Sam's not down with it?
Like, no.
Nope.
No.

Sam (11:59):
You see, I hate when people say that, because they're like,
have you never done that?
And coming from like, a place oflike, it's like one of those
things where I have, I'm reallyclose to someone who has
schizophrenia.
So it's very funny because I am,my disorder is actually on the
borderline of that, so we can'timport it.
Experience similar things.
So sometimes like you ever justlike sit and there's just
screaming.
He's like, yeah, man what time Iopened my coffee cream and there

(12:21):
was just screaming and I'm likeYeah Yeah And I always think
about that with people like Icould just sit and think and I'm
like that is my actualNightmare, just imagine sitting
there and just waiting forsomething terrifying to happen.
Is this like your mind just Godand it's just it's just no, it's
just my fear that it's the funnything is like you can't even

(12:41):
escape it by Filling it withthings either.
So it's like, where do you wheredo you go?
And like you either choose beinglike heavily medicated so you
don't feel that thing But thenyou're not a person and you're
just it's almost like you'realways staring at the wall, but
you're never really feelinganything Where you experience
this weird pseudo dichotomy ofreality and non reality which is
a really weird thing when you'retalking people who are like

(13:01):
neurotypical and they don'texperience this like this
duality of the realness and thenon realness because I think you
get like a lot more of a Like ahuman perspective when you start
to realize like what your mindmakes when it's trying to cope
with the world around you Like Ihave when I was a kid This is
something that happened to me islike I was I was trying to do
like the quiet thing I was like,I'm gonna be a meditator.
I'm gonna do Buddhism And I wassitting there trying to meditate

(13:23):
one day and I opened my eyes andmy entire room was melting and I
was freaking out I was like, ohmy god.
Oh my god.
Oh my god.
Oh my god Like is this a dream?
I'm like, am I, am I like, youknow, like in this thing?
I had no idea what washappening.
It was much later that Irealized this was like due to a
mental disorder And I was like,why?
Why was it happening?
And I thought about that likemany years later and I realized
it was because it felt like theworld around me was melting and

(13:45):
falling apart.
Not quickly, not fast, but likevery slowly.
Almost something that I couldjust not necessarily always get
a hold of.
And my reality was verydistorted.
And so that's something I thinkabout too, is like, it's really
interesting when people talk tome about their perceptions and
realities of the world.
How they view things and likehow they engage and just being
an entire different space fromthem and still engaging It's

(14:06):
just really interesting.
It gets it's really interestingto see the duality of one's mind
Brought into the like what yousee as reality

a.m. (14:16):
So stripping stuff away doesn't work for you

Scott (14:18):
Yeah, I found that the silence meditation, you know,
eyes closed, sitting on thefloor.
Well, while I could do it, it'snot something that I really felt
was beneficial to me long term.
And then I sort of came into itlike this non dual teachings of
like, you know, whatever you'redoing, make it a meditation.
Yeah.

(14:38):
So I've become much more awareof like, you know, we talked
about this a long time ago,washing the dishes.
Like, paying a close attentionto every dish and what part
you're doing and not havingthoughts about like, Oh, the
other day this time somebodysaid this and having these
conversations, these imaginaryconversations about what might
happen or what did happen orwhat I should have done.
So getting into those processmeditations, you know, Mowing

(15:01):
the lawn or doing the laundryand trying to maintain focus on
one.
You know, do I wrote something,pops up every day on my
computer, do one thing at a timeand do it well.
Mm-Hmm, So that's kind of, youknow, how I'm overlaying it over
my life of not just sitting insilence for two hours a week,
like cumulative, two hours aweek, but trying to make that

(15:21):
conscious awareness be part ofevery task that I'm doing.
And, you know, obviously there'sgonna be things that interrupt
it.
You know, I was sitting intraffic for two hours and 45
minutes last night coming homefrom Stanford, so that was not
fun.
But it was an opportunity tohave a, you know, process
awareness meditation of parkedon the side of the Merritt
waiting for things to move.

(15:43):
Let's see how long this takes.
You know, I was able to listento a little podcast and sit in
silence and then kind of thinkabout, you know, How things are
gonna unfold as I move forwardand then next thing you know, I
was moving.
So it kind of helped collapsethat time into something that I
wasn't freaking out.
Everybody around me was gettingout of their car and like, you

(16:03):
know, looking down the streetand trying to figure out what
was going on.
One guy hopped over the railingand like went to the bathroom in
the woods and you know, so allthese things are happening
around me and I was just kind ofwatching it all and trying not
to, you know, not trying not toreact but just not reacting.

a.m. (16:18):
There's a a room, a chamber.
It's part of a scientific Ithink it was built for an
experiment,

Scott (16:22):
The anechoic chamber.

a.m. (16:24):
Zero sound.
It is so absent sound that you,you know, literally can hear the
blood moving through your body,and people freak out more.
So silence, you know, we talkabout meditation and these
mindful states, right?
It's not like, silence.
stillness in a certain way.
It's like, actually, nothing,like this table is not still.
This table is moving.

(16:44):
Our, you know, sample rate ofobservation It's both too rapid
and too short in duration to seeit moving.
But it's moving, and it'sdisintegrating, and it's, you
know, right?
And so, you know, it's notsilence, it's not stillness.
It's, it's it's not being hookedby the stuff.

Scott (17:00):
The, the anechoic chamber thing.
I remember a long time ago, Isaw a documentary about John
Cage, the experimental composer,and he did the same thing.
He went into the anechoicchamber and he sat there and he
realized that there's no suchthing as silence.
Even in that environment,there's still two sounds.
There's a high frequency sound,which is your nervous system,
and a low frequency sound, whichis your circulatory system And

(17:21):
that is the chamber.
Two things that are constant,but it's always drowned out by
ambience and reflections andwhatever room we're in.
You know, if you're in a brightroom like this, it's, you know,
get any of that.
But in that anechoic chamber,there's still those two constant
sounds and you can sort ofcontrol them with your thoughts.
If you spend enough timethinking about, I'm going to
slow down my circulation or I'mgoing to slow down my nervous

(17:43):
system.
You have conscious control overthem once you recognize them.

Sam (17:47):
You know what that reminds me of?
Oh, like adjacent.
I don't know, have you everheard of that art piece where I
think it's like 2 minutes and 35seconds?
And it's like silence.

Scott (17:56):
That's the same guy.

Sam (17:57):
The same guy.
Yeah, that's the guy.

Scott (17:58):
Four minutes and 33 seconds.

Sam (18:00):
Yes.
There you go.
That one.
I have watched that so manytimes in class and it's like my
favorite thing to watch becauseThey just they just lift up the
top of the piano cover and justsit there And the song is the
people around them for theduration of that entire time

Scott (18:13):
Coughs and sirens and whatever's going on inside

Sam (18:15):
and I love that piece so much because it's one it's
different every single time, butit's so interesting to see like
people doing things they're likeWhat are we doing?
What's the thing?

a.m. (18:25):
This is exactly what we're talking about.
It's just sitting on the couchfor an hour.
You did it with John Cage.

Sam (18:29):
See, like, I guess I do, man.
Like, see, the thing is, I thinkit's like if I try to do that
meditation thing where I try tofocus, it doesn't work.

a.m. (18:38):
Yeah.
It's the getting hooked.

Sam (18:40):
Yeah.
And

a.m. (18:40):
even, and this is my concern about the digital, I'm
sorry to interrupt you, butabout the digital apps, right?
And the solution.
As soon as you put a solution toit and a thing to do,

Sam (18:48):
yeah,

a.m. (18:49):
you've got it.
You started from a place whereyou will never get to what it is
you're after.
Right?
This is exactly where, where,where, what I've been ruminating
on, right?
Is, you're right.
If I start thinking about, okay,I have to be calm.
I'm gonna make myself silent.
I'm gonna, like, you're alreadydone.
Yeah.
But the experience you'retalking about, watching that
John Cage thing, this is whatI'm, I think what's Kyley

(19:10):
pointing to, but he can speakfor himself, obviously, but
that's what I'm pointing to, ofjust, like, It's not anything
stopping.
It's that I'm just observing andI'm not participating.

Kyley (19:17):
Yeah.
The hooks for me this morningwould have been exercising,
making food.
Like those are the, my brainbeing like, I gotta do this
stuff so I can be ready for theday.
And instead I'm like, I'msitting here is what I'm going
to be doing right now.
And whatever that is, it is whatit is.
I'm just going to be heresitting until I don't want to be
sitting anymore.

Scott (19:36):
I think the thing is like, where does the judgment
come from?
Is that external?
Is it internal?
Is it a combination?

Sam (19:41):
I'd say it's a combination for sure.

Scott (19:43):
You know, I must be doing something instead of like, my
body says stop right now.

Kyley (19:47):
For me, it's, it's this like, my body feels tired and
big and full of food and stuckand like I know I need to move
it.
Like, that's, if I'm going tocontinue to live and or do my
work, I gotta get my bodymoving.
But it wasn't the time.

Scott (20:07):
But then you got up?

Kyley (20:08):
I got up, I fed Frejya, took her outside, she went to
the bathroom, and my wholenervous system was like, you
just need to sit on the couchand stare at a wall.

Sam (20:15):
For your favorite part, where I loop this back to
students.
It's actually really interestingbecause I was thinking about
this yesterday.
I was running a differentactivity with students and it
was kind of a culmination ofeverything I have ever done,
everything I've ever reallylearned.
And it was very kind of like alast minute thing based on
something that I had had prior.
And um, at some point I wasnoticing the students like kind
of working through this thing.
The only thing I gave them waslike this challenge to complete.

(20:36):
It gave them a tool to do it andI was like, listen, I'm not
going to give you any answers.
I'm not going to say anything toyou.
I'm not even going to be herereally to help.
You are in charge of your ownlearning.
And I believe that you're fullycapable of doing this.
You have researchers around you,you have ChatGPT, you have
Google, and you have each other.
So I let them kind of, I justgave them the challenge.
I was like, this is my onlymarket for success.
And at some point, you know, I'mnoticing that like, one of them
had come late and they're tryingto catch up.

(20:57):
Pinky and myself were like, youknow, like talk to the other
students and I was like, well Ireally want them to be able to
talk with each other Like howcan I do that?
And something I was kind offighting in myself was like I
have to give them the answers Ihave to be there.
I have to explain to them likethey still don't really know
what i'm asking Maybe I wasn'tclear enough because there was
so much like silence about it.
They were so deeply focused.
I was so unsure So like as aleap of faith, I was like, okay

(21:17):
Me and Kay are gonna step away.
Fully step away.
We're not even gonna be in thespace.
You are fully in charge of eachother and your cohort's success.
Like, and so we stepped away insuch a way we could still see
them but that we were almostlike essentially leaving the
space.
Like it was funny cause there'slike a section over there where
it's like my carpet and liketile.
So we were literally on theother side of the line just
watching them.
And it was really interesting tojust watch them talk and engage

(21:38):
and figure things out.
And in that moment, it was justreally scary for me because
like, it was almost like, arethey going to make it?
Is everything going to be okay?
Will, will things end up okay?
And the end product wasabsolutely just eyeopening
because.
They had figured out things thatI hadn't even told them.
They had figure out, they hadused, all of them had used
different resources to come tothe same conclusion and it was

(22:00):
really full and comprehensiveand I could not pull them off
their computers.
I was like, all right, breaktime.
And they're bringing theircomputer.
I'm like, it's, it's break, it'sbreak time.
You got to put it down.
And this, no, I, one of them hadto take the computer.
They're just really attached toit.
And I was like, wow, I have theopposite.
Most days where I'm like, greattime.
Then they run, basically leavethe computer behind.
But I could not, they wereasking for more time.
They were very, very engaged,very engaged in the tool.

(22:21):
And when a student left thatday, they had told me like, I
generally thought today wasgoing to be boring, it was just
going to be a time filler, and,you know, when I first was
introduced to the tool, I feltsuper intimidated, and I was
really anxious, and I gotthrough it.
And like, you could see, like,them work through that entire
process, and that was somethingthat, like, I had always wanted
to have as an educator, like Ialways wanted to be like a high

(22:41):
school teacher.
That was something I wanted wayback when.
And I never got to have thatexperience because I was told
never to do it.
And just kind of seeing thatprocess, I realized something.
It's like, just that kind ofidea of like, for me as an
educator, just taking the stepback to just observe the space
and let it be.
Whether that's, that's messy orwhether that is clean is also
important for student learning.

(23:03):
And in taking a step back andlooking at my learning, I
realized that was something Ireally deeply needed was just an
educated, say like, you're smartenough.
You can do this.
The tools here, it might beconfusing.
It might be hard, but like youwill get there.
How about it?
And that was really eyeopening.
So it's, it's really interestingthat you like, you say that
Kyley, what your body needs.

(23:23):
And I think that's somethingthat.
I think teachers and educatorsaren't really stepping back and
thinking about it.
Sometimes the students bodiesare telling them they're tired,
they're sleepy, or they just,they need a different challenge.
And we're not making enoughspace for that kind of feedback
to be heard and implemented inreal time, even if it is messy.

Scott (23:38):
Every bit of order has a little bit of chaos in there.

a.m. (23:40):
Workplaces, classrooms, It's very machined.
We've always been pretty goodabout letting students be as
they need to be that day.
I'm not going to say thegentleman's name, but I remember
back, you know, two years agothere was a young man who'd come
in and I think we wound uptaking him off the books just
because it felt wrong to, youknow, count him as a student.
But he'd come in and sleep.
He'd go into the cafeteria areaback in the previous location we

(24:02):
were in and he'd be crashed outbecause he wasn't getting enough
sleep at home.
And they're like, we were hisnap spot.
And, cool, that's gonna help youin the rest of your day, make it
through school, make it throughwhatever, yeah.
He'd wake up for food, you know.
At five o'clock we do the food,and he'd wake up, he'd eat, and
then he'd go back to sleep.
And he'd wind up gettingthreatened.
And like I said, we, you know,like we, you know, we wouldn't

(24:22):
quote unquote graduate orprovide credential or whatever,
but, you know.
Yeah.
If what he needed was a place tosleep for three hours because
he's not getting that elsewhere.
Cool.
Don't come here to sleep.
Intentionally.
This stuff is all in the contextof commitment.
Where the sort of rules ofbehavior come into place, they
become necessary because Thereis not the work done to create

(24:44):
systems of commitment.
And so what we get instead iscompliance.
And so I have these rules whereyou, you know, you can't do
this, you can't do that, toensure that we get to an
outcome.
But, if you're willing to do thework of commitment, which is
messier linear, less predictableLess, you know, person in the

(25:06):
front driven.
You can let go of a lot ofrules.
And it's not a novel, like, thisis how we, you know, a healthy
family doesn't have a lot ofrules.
There's a sort of, you know, setof relationships and respect and
values that keeps the thingtogether, and there's some
rules.
But, unhealthy?
Tons of rules.

Kyley (25:23):
I might reframe the family one as boundaries.
There are boundaries that youhit.
Yeah.
I don't know that they'regenerally rules.
Yeah.

a.m. (25:30):
Well, I So to fortunate for you, if you've not
encountered families, like, likeI know people, I know people
now.
Yeah.
Like their, they, their homes.
Like they wouldn't think of itthis way, but I look at them and
think, oh, you got a business.
You know what I mean?
In terms of like, like their,like productivity quotient
basically.
And, you know, there's adifference between I'm co
accountable for the space, andso things like keeping it clean,

(25:51):
and trash, and laundry, andthat's out of a sense of, even
if I don't feel like doing it,it's out of a commitment to the
space.
There's a difference betweenthat and you've got performance
standards, that if you don'thit, you're not going to get A,
B, and C.
Like, those are rules ofconsequences, you know?

Scott (26:05):
What it feels like is, when you have those sort of
rules of consequence andexpectations, it can very easily
for, you know, I probablyimagine for a lot of kids, turn
into like, you can't really bewho you are here.
So then they look for placeslike this to come take a nap or
play a game or hang out withfriends and stuff and be, Who

(26:27):
they really are reminds me ofwhat you said on the first day
for orientation you are okayalready.
And then the rest of it, it waskind of like, where are we going
to go from that point?
Probably don't get that a lot ofplaces, if any place at all,
even in their own families.

a.m. (26:41):
And it's actually, Scott, I think worse than, than, than
the way you just expressed it.
Because the way you expressed itis the human being is still left
with the awareness of who I am.
And, and most of where it playsout is that the questions never
even get asked and it getssuppressed.
And so I am these outcomes,right?
I am then the high schooloutcome, and then I'm the

(27:02):
college outcome, and then I'mthe job outcome, and then I'm
the, you know, whatever outcome,right?
And so the question never evengets asked.
There isn't time to come to aplace like DAE.
You know, DAE feels like sittingon the couch for an hour.
I don't know if they do that.
And then, and then, you know,fast forward four years and we
get the kind of results we do.
And so you see kids going to do,you know, interesting things and
it goes, Oh, okay.

(27:22):
No, they're not sitting on acouch.
Maybe I will go there.
And then some of them get hereand it's like, wait, you're
sitting on a couch.

Kyley (27:27):
Yeah, I think that's, that's something we bumped into
this year and some of last year.
It was, is.
Because we don't have thatprescriptive, this is who we
expect you to be.
The places who demand that fromthem tend to get attention
because they're the fires thatneed to be put out.
Yeah.
Like my AP classes, I have a Bin my AP class.
I need to leave for the week tomake sure I get my AP class up

(27:48):
to an A because they're the oneswho are, this is who I have to
be.

a.m. (27:52):
So, so, so I'll go back to the word I was using earlier,
addiction, right?
Yeah.
It's, it's, I, I get generatedby these things, and so I need
them

Kyley (28:00):
Yeah.

a.m. (28:00):
In order to feel like I'm actually here.
Like I don't have anyrelationship with generating my
own experience.

Kyley (28:05):
Yeah.

a.m. (28:06):
And so if I'm not, these seven things that I've been told
make for being a human being,who the hell am I If I don't get
into, into MIT, if I don't likethe MI t's, great.
Go to MIT.
If you can get in, great.
But the, the, the connectionpoint is always the problem.
If this, then that.
If I do that, then I'm okay.
If I achieve this, then I'mokay.
That's, that's the addictionpart.
And if you sit on couches longenough, you realize, oh shit,

(28:29):
yeah, everything's okay.
It's not perfect, but it's okay.
I'm gonna else eventually, butI'm okay.

Scott (28:37):
me of one of my favorite quotes that I dug up here by
Alan Watts, who's been a, youknow, sage for me.
The meaning of life is just tobe alive.
It is so plain and so obviousand so simple and yet everybody
rushes around in a great panicas if it were necessary to
achieve something beyondthemselves.
So start from that wholeness andeverything you do can be a gift
and a growth, is kind of the wayI perceive that.

Sam (29:01):
does that still like even apply to like marginalized
folks?
Like I've been thinking aboutthis, right?
Like If you're experiencinghouselessness, if you're
experiencing actual, you know,clinical addiction, if you've
been ostracized by a system thatis meant to isolate you, how
does one Navigate thatperspective of like, you know,

(29:22):
the idea of like, you know,going back to this idea that
we've been bringing up is likethe sitting on the couch and I
am okay.
Like, how do you do that whenliterally you have no place to
go?
You have no couch.
Yeah.
Like how?
Yeah.
Like, you know what I mean?
Like the proverbial couch.
Like, and I, I've been thinkingabout that.

a.m. (29:38):
So, mean, I've got, I've got.
Two responses Sam, the secondone is lived experience on it
But but one is I mean listen ifto use a medical analogy, right?
Like I'm speaking about health

Sam (29:49):
but

a.m. (29:51):
if you've got a bullet wound Health is not the concern
Remediation of your wound is theconcern and so if the kind of
marginalized situations you'retalking about Yeah, man, what
I'm talking about is not thepriority You The priority is
remediate the wound, right?
If you're unhoused, that's gotto, you know, we got to figure
out how to help you take care ofthat.

(30:12):
And I have shared my story, likeI said, you know, room this
size, seven people, no indoorplumbing.
And I was sitting on the couch.
Because I was around people, mygrandfather, my grandfather, my
maternal grandfather, man, it'slike just It's unexplainable the
impact he had on my life and,and who he was, like, you know a
moral force within hiscommunity.
And so in the context of thatextreme sort of, you know,

(30:35):
condition I, I was in fact, asa, as a young human, able to sit
on the couch.
Doesn't mean I didn't need mybullet wounds, tended to, right?
But I do think it's possibleit's not, you know, magic wand,
it's not, you know, it's not dothis and then the other stuff
goes away.
This film, this film is you knowthe story of without, gloriously
without romanticizing it or, orany of that.

(30:56):
The lead character is he cleanstoilets in, in Tokyo.
He's part of the crew of, youknow.
And Also doesn't that, well Iguess he does have indoor play,
but he goes to a bathhouse everyday.
It's his thing, he takes hisshowers and you know.
And one of the things I loveabout the film is it doesn't
romanticize it.
It doesn't, you know, fail toacknowledge the difficulty of
it.
So anyway, There's two, I think.
One is, yes, absolutely.
Like, if there are open wounds,as it were, those have to get

(31:18):
tended to.
It's a different sort of domainof focus than what I'm speaking
to.
And then I also find it acertain potential kind of, I
know you're not meeting it thisway, but.
I won't say the organization,because it's a local
organization, but I was at astrategic planning session for a
very large non profit, and theyinvited some people to come and,
you know, and this, this nonprofit, you know, serves, a

(31:39):
variety of constituencies, allof them potentially, you know,
marginalized and, and mainlyeconomically marginalized.
And the conversation was thissort of like, we have to have to
have them get these things sothat then they can be happy and
be in community and have goodrelationships.
And I'm like, wait, so you'regating human happiness with

(31:59):
material stability.
Like, that's to me violent.
You must take care of the, youknow, we have a moral
obligation, particularly givenhow affluent we are, to take
care of these financial needs.
Absolutely.
But to say that you have to dothat in order for the human
being to be happy is to saythat, that, that happiness
requires, These material things,which is part of the oppression

(32:20):
of this kind of, you know,system we're living under.
Right.
And so I think both are true forme.
It's like, yes, we have to tend,absolutely have to tend to the,
the, the, you know, the woundsof marginalized people and we
can't deny them the access tohappiness while tending to their
wounds, right.
Contentment and, and presenceand calm and silence.

Sam (32:39):
Yeah.
Cause I wonder about that.
Like if, if everything is.
Hard and falling apart, right?
If you are in a severelymarginalized situation, how do
you still find that?
Like, in a sense, everything'salready been stripped away from
you, right?
So all there is left is toreflect.
And so how do you make that ina, in a, in a meaningful way
that allows you to accept thereality of the way things are,

(33:00):
except that those realitiesaren't necessarily always fair,
but still give yourself apathway to.
You know, happiness to being,general okayness is, I guess, is
the thing that I'm reflectingon.

a.m. (33:12):
I'm, I'm sorry, as we're talking, literally, I got a ping
from somebody I haven't talkedto in quite a while.
A colleague with whom I wasrunning a podcast a couple years
ago.
And they have decided to go toColumbia to get their PhD after,
you know, they're kind of midcareer and just decided to go to
Columbia.
And this is the text I gotliterally three minutes ago as,
as we were talking.
And I haven't, I haven't talkedto her in, like, close to a
year.
We still communicate, but just,you know, busy lives.

(33:34):
I went to the protests today andsat in the middle of the
encampment in a circle readingpoetry with one of the
professors.
And some of the students, I readUncle Walt, I refer to Walt
Whitman as Uncle Walt, and Ithought of you and and then she
copied the poem and it'sWhitman's Ebb'd with the Ocean
of Life.
And I won't read that becauseit's very long, but we will
absolutely include it in theshow notes here.

(33:55):
Because like, it's like, like,in the context of what we're
talking about, it is like, likejust, just a glorious piece of
synchronicity.

Scott (34:03):
Yeah, so the, taking it as how to help those who might
experience marginalization isthe responsibility of the rest
of us, right?
It's kind of what activism andallyship is about, in a lot of
levels and how do we do thatfrom a place of wholeness
ourselves, not, not becomefragmented to align with them,
but how do we stay whole andprovide that space.

(34:26):
Very similar to the students,provide a space for them to be
naturally as they are in thatday or that moment and then, you
know, show the paths that areavailable from that place.

Sam (34:37):
Yeah.

Scott (34:38):
It's not about, oh, let me give you something and now
I've done my, my bit.
It's how do I continue tomaintain that space in a place
of sharing and caring andresponsibility.

Sam (34:50):
yeah, cause I'm, I'm thinking about the story I read
once, which is I think it wascalled like those who walk away
from the city of Omelas orsomething like that.
And basically it's a story oflike this whole town, everyone's
happy, everyone is happy.
Right.
And it tells you about howeveryone is happy in this town
and then it stops and it says,except for one person.
And it's one child, one singularchild.

(35:11):
Who lives in the worst waypossible.
They suffer in agony.
They carry the agony of everysingle person in that town.
And they will never not feelagony till the day they die.
But, because this person feelsthis, everyone else will forever
be happy.
And every year they take thekids down to see this kid on a

(35:33):
field trip so they can see thekid suffering and know the
history of this kid and etc,etc.
And so the story follows thisfield trip of kids who go to go
see this kid suffering.
And after they leave, a coupleof them leave.
Leave the city of Omelas.
And it's just basically like,kind of this idea, like, after
the disgust is like how do youfeel about happiness knowing

(35:53):
that there are others around youwho may not always be in that
same place?
And like, obviously this is avery broad thing, but in
relating to kind of whateveryone's been speaking about
it, it brings a lot to mindwhere it's like, kind of your,
to your part, Scott, where it'slike, it's all about creating
that space for people to havethat idea.
But it's also, I think, aboutcreating the space to have
conversations.
And also like what Kyley wassaying earlier is, I think it's

(36:14):
also important that we recognizethat people are coming from
different spaces.
We've left different spaces in asense.
We could have left our ownversion of Omelas.
Like we could have left our ownversion of what could have been
happiness.
We could have left high payingjobs.
We could have left greatfamilies.
We could have left great friendsbehind because there were
certain things that we justinherently didn't agree with.
And we have to find that thing.
And all of this is a lot ofcomplexity and there's no real

(36:35):
answer here, at least not for meright now, but there is
happiness.
There is joy to be found in justthe reflection of life itself.
And that can be really difficultwhen you're in a marginalized
situation, but that doesn't meanit's impossible And I think it's
important that we model thatwhen we are in those situations
We model that when we are inprivileged situations, but we
also acknowledge that sometimesit can come from a privileged

(36:56):
space And we need to create morespace for people who aren't as
privileged to have that to dothat That's kind of what i'm my
takeaways from this

Scott (37:03):
Interesting how the people who have the most
capacity to help the most peopleare the, as they get to that
point, are the ones that areleast likely to actually go for
that.
And, and we've talked about thatquite a bit, like the, you know,
the big man theory is going tosave everything or like, you
know, some hero, which thenbecomes just, you know, the
richest person in the worldinstead of the hero.

a.m. (37:24):
it's, a, you know, yet another dysfunction in society.
My grandfather was just, just, Idon't know what you're saying,
like, was, was referring tomodeling what it is to be happy
in the context ofmarginalization.
Like that, that's the gift I gotas a young human, right?
So I, yeah, very much resonatewith what you're saying.
One of the, you know, manydysfunctions another way we
glorify great men and, and, youknow, is, is through

(37:45):
philanthropy, But the, the.
The personal sacrifice involvedin somebody worth, you know, 3
billion, giving away 50 millionis trivial compared to somebody
making 30, 000 giving away 3bucks on the street to, you
know, to an unhoused person.
And yet, we will take out fullpage news articles.

(38:08):
For that 50 million donation.
And if you try to have thisconversation, it becomes, Oh,
you people are never happy.
You're, you know, blah, blah,blah.
Right.
But it's, it's an inherent sortof contradiction in the system.
I have found fairlyconsistently, I, I don't, I've
always had a really, I get, Iget through genetic luck and,
and right time, right era.
Like I got the wiring to make alot of money.

(38:30):
Like I've always been good at,right?
And I've always been reallyuncomfortable with affluence.
Like I've, I've actively notpursued and not, you know, lived
that way.
Because I, to the question youasked, I, I, I'm not sure how to
be comfortable with three housesand five cars.
In the context of what I knowabout the world.
Like, I'm just not, I don'tjudge other, I genuinely don't

(38:52):
judge other people for it.
I have friends who live thatway.
It's not my business, but Ijust, I can't, I just, in my
bones, I can't understand it.

Scott (39:00):
I took the Coursera version of the Yale online
course, the happiness class, oneof those, you know, most
attended.
And, through the course of that,you realize that you're not
alone.
Affluence, you know, there's a,there's a level of compensation
that you hit that the returns onhappiness are, you know,
marginal over about the time itwas like 77, 000.

(39:20):
I think with inflation andstuff, it's probably like a
hundred and something, 105 orsomething.
Once you make more than that,it's like 150.
So once you, once you, once youmake more than that threshold,
then the return on happiness ismarginal, but finds that the.
Return on time affluence isexponential.
So the more you hit a certainpoint where you have enough time

(39:41):
affluence, that's where thesuccess stories come from.
Because you can be that wholeperson and then make a, you
know, an effectual change in thecommunity that you choose to
serve.

a.m. (39:51):
But here's the problem, Scott, is there are a lot of,
you know, upper middle class andwealthy folks with a lot of time
affluence.
And what do they do with theirtime?
Playing, you know, get a flightof scotland to play to play 18
holes.
Yeah, we're gonna you know againGo to one of our four houses And
all that stuff is great like Idon't you know, it's cool.
It's fun.
I get it but that's what tendsto happen where big and again,

(40:14):
it gets back to if you'reWealthy folks are as trapped by
this system another, you knowcontradiction wealthy folks are
as trapped by this system asExtremely poor folks are It's a
really bizarre thing.
They're trapped in, now they'retrapped in a really comfortable
bed with really nice food.
And you know,

Scott (40:31):
the handcuffs are soft,

a.m. (40:32):
but, but, but, but, but they are handcuffs nonetheless,
because the access to the thingswe started talking about in this
conversation, my experience isthat they are just as blocked
off, right?
I had a client and a coachingclient who's an executive in a
financial services firm.
Who was in, and this soundsridiculous, it's so easy to

(40:52):
judge this, and yet, it's ahuman being having an
experience.
Who was in a state of legitimatestress and anxiety because they
made a promise to their wifethat they were going to sell the
house that they had.
Now that the kids were grown,they were going to sell the
house they had.
And buy a slightly smaller housein the same affluent town, but
then buy a summer home in, youknow,

Scott (41:16):
in, in, in.
It sounds

a.m. (41:17):
terrible.
But no, no, no, here's theproblem.
His bonus was only 1.
4 million and it was supposed tobe, he's at 3 million cap.
And so it was less than half ofwhat the cap was.
And he can't afford.
This is like seven years ago andhe couldn't afford it.
And so again, we sit here andthought this is ridiculous.
What an asshole.
Right?
Right.
And yet the anxiety was, he washaving legitimate anxiety, was

(41:39):
the same anxiety as somebodywith a$1,200 rent who doesn't
know how to pay their rent thatmonth.
Again, it sounds, it isdysfunctional, but if you take
just the human experience of it,right, and so this is why I say
it's the same trap.
At a larger scale, it's tougherto feel sorry for because, you
know, they're eating well andthey're whatever, but it is the
same trap.

(42:00):
Not enough.
Not enough.
And so we victimize folks on thelower end of the scale.

Sam (42:06):
Yeah.

a.m. (42:07):
And we overstuff people on the high end of the scale.
You know, they're, they're,they're, they're, they're,
they're, Like, if, if, if thepeople who are being ground down
by the system at the low end ofthe wage scale are, are the
equivalent of factory farmedcows, the people on the high end
of the scale are the you know,grass fed pasture raised cows.

(42:27):
Who are still headed to theslaughterhouse and are not
roaming free.

Scott (42:32):
Yeah, I felt that pretty acutely last weekend.
I went to Visit the glass housein New Canaan, Philip, you know,
Philip Johnson's iconic glasshouse and, you know, paid 100
for the three hour tour got thetour of all the galleries and
all the stuff on the compound.
And it's more than just theglass house.
It turns out there's, you know,tons and tons of stuff on that

(42:53):
property.
And then you realize, as they'retelling you, like, this guy was,
like, born into wealth.
Became influenced by art andarchitecture very early on and
started collecting art as soonas he started making money from
architecture.
And then, bequeathed this wholecompound to the National, you
know, Historic Trust.
And now they manage it and thencharge money for maintenance

(43:15):
and, you know, whatever they'redoing.
But you're looking at the piecesof art, you know, millions and
millions of dollars of art in acustom made buildings that have
rotating walls for you canchange the display every year
and have all the paintings fromthis collection that haven't
been gifted to museums.
And I'm just thinking like, Itcould probably fit like 400
people living in this space, youknow, first off, like, you know,

(43:36):
even in the the storage roomsand stuff.
It's like enough to really put adent in the houseless, you know,
population in nearby cities.
But it's just this dichotomy oflike, I paid a hundred bucks to
learn this and I'm feelingpretty crummy being here, but
it's pretty awesome at the sametime because of my interest in
architecture.
So, it's like this weird, like,push pull.

(43:58):
That I get.
And art, you know, overpricedart as an, you know, asset, no,
asset class is the only one thatnever really loses any money.
It only goes up.

Sam (44:08):
I have another question, because this came to mind.
Based on what you were talkingabout.
On the concept of like, youknow, like the, the hook, like
the thing that you're likechasing after, right?
And like the idea of like time.
Mm hmm.
How do you think that applies tolike, you know, activists like
who eventually get burnt outjust doing activism?
Like, what do you think is like,what are your thoughts on that?

a.m. (44:29):
Well I mean, I think burnout can be in, in any form,
you know, at least two, twocauses.
One is losing connection with,with the community.
the spark that had you, youknow, whether it's, it's, it's
burnout from painting, right?
That's like my life's work andyet I'm burned out of being a
painter or burned out ofactivism, burned out of

(44:50):
education as you lose theconnection to the commitment and
it becomes like thing you'redoing, right?
I think the second though, thatis more specific to these kind
of scenarios is, I don't have alot, I read all the philosophers
I read everything when I wasyounger, and I have not had any
use for Western philosophersjust personally, other than
Camus.
I'm very fond of Camus.
And Camus writes so, you know,Sisyphus, right?

(45:14):
Pushing the rock of the dawn.
Camus famously wrote at the bookabout Sisyphus, one must imagine
Sisyphus happy.

Sam (45:21):
Oh, I love that.

a.m. (45:22):
Right?
And the reality is the kind ofwork that you're pointing to
that people are doing, it is aboulder up a hill, where there
are people on the other side ofthe boulder, you can't
necessarily see because it'sbehind hidden doors, pushing
back down.
And the burden of that, and therealization at a certain point,
of the fact that, you know, therock is not going to get to the

(45:44):
top of the hill in my lifetime.
I don't know if it ever will.
Can be crushing to the spirit.

Scott (45:48):
I heard a different take on on the Sisyphean kind of
story yesterday in waiting intraffic in the car again.
The idea was Thinking about,like, sort of reframing the
story, and if you think aboutthe infinite nature of pushing
the boulder up the hill,eventually, you're gonna wear
down the hill to a flat surfaceand wear down the boulder to a

(46:09):
pile of sand.

a.m. (46:10):
That's a hustle and grind mindset.
I reject it.

Scott (46:12):
No, I just mean, like, if you think about the concept of
eternity, that, that is what weneed to think about in eternity.
It's like, everything's gonnachange.
It's never gonna be that, like,It's not life's work, it's
eternal work of finding thereason why to keep pushing.

Sam (46:30):
It's so funny, I heard it take on Sisyphus too, which was
imaginary pushing the boulder upthe hill.
And every time it comes backdown, or every time it gets
heavier, every time it gets,like, imagine, like, even if,
every time it gets easier, itwill, something will make it
harder, whatever that thing is,whether it's people, the gods,
whatever it is.
And, you know, when they askhim, like, how are you doing?
He's happy.
And the idea is that, like, youcan find joy in the absurdity of

(46:53):
life.
And the absurdity of life islike, it's terrible.
Life is terrible.
It's, it's, it's never easier.
It's always going to get harder.
But the thing, I forgot theperson who said this to me, but
it was like, Sisyphus kind oflike looked at everyone was
like, yeah, but the gods gave methis task.
Of all the people, they gave methis task.
Yes, I push a boulder up a hill,and no matter what I do, it

(47:13):
comes back down.
And no matter how, if it evergets easier, it gets harder.
But I alone am the one tasked todo this.
And that itself is a joy.
And I think that's, that reallymakes sense when you put in the
context of like, activism andburnout and finding that passion
and taking that step back is,You know, like, the path you
have in life, only you alone cantake, and no matter how hard it

(47:34):
gets, whether you aremarginalized, whether you are
affluent or privileged, like,you alone must carry that
boulder, and to find meaning inthat absurdity is entirely up to
you.
Yep.

Kyley (47:44):
I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna take a take on Sisyphus,
and I'm gonna make it up in myown brain right now.
We're just gonna keep goingaround the circle.
Square?
We're taking Sisyphus as anindividual.
Activism sometimes feels like anindividual.
But if you have somebody putwheat down in front of the
boulder, grind up some grains,somebody can make bread for
Sisyphus.
Like, you're not alone.

(48:05):
Feeling like Sisyphus feels likealone.
You're the only one that canpush the boulder, but somebody's
got to feed you.
He's like, little help, littlehelp over here.
Do whatever you want, but I wantto be careful with that because
I get trapped in that like, I amthe only one pushing this
boulder, and I will be the onlyone who can do this.
And while I can only do thework, I still need someone to
take care of me and I need to beable to take care of somebody to
do it.

Scott (48:25):
Hence the sitting and staring at the wall for an hour
to regroup.

Sam (48:28):
I mean, Sisyphus is watched by the gods, you know, so the
gods can produce bread.

a.m. (48:33):
I, I, I, it may be both.
For me, it's both, Kyley, right?
So there is, you know,absolutely, again, there's no
secret, right, community.
Everything is, everything isrelationship, community.
It's a fallacy.
I think you do anything on yourown, like just.
That cup of tea, right?
10, 000 people involved to getyou that cup of tea.
Literally, probably more.
So yeah, I'm with you.
And my work and my boulder ismine.

(48:57):
Yep.
To push the rest of my life,right?
Yeah.
And so it's both of thosethings, right?
And Camus was an absurdist,right?
You know, the idea that life,you know, Life is inherently
meaningless in the sense ofobjective meaning and human
beings sort of attempts atPretending otherwise is sort of
absurd but but Camus also saidyou know that the realization of

(49:19):
the absurdity is not the endpoint is the place to start from
and then Push your rock, butimagines this if it's happy

Sam (49:26):
I want to move away from the center and move closer and
closer to the edge without evertruly falling off.

a.m. (49:30):
Mm hmm Yeah.
Only those who approach, this isUncle Kurt now, only those who
approach the edge can see overthe side.

Sam (49:37):
Yeah, I mean, I think that kind of points back to that
story I was talking about, likethe ones who leave the city of
Omelas, because if you put thatentire burden on one person,
right?
There are people who inherentlydon't agree with that and will
walk away, right?
Like, while yes, what you do caninherently help a lot of people,
a lot of people don't agree witha singular person being the one
that suffers for that.

(49:58):
So I mean, if you apply that tothe context of, you know,
Sisyphus, right?
While yes, they carry thatboulder and how they make that
meaning matters and theabsurdity of it all.
The fact that other people aretalking about it in that way is
kind of that idea that they'renot alone in that.
Other people want, don't wantthem to experience that.
Other people don't want them tobe alone in that.
In fact, the gods themselves,like.

(50:18):
are constantly there as apresence to ensure that
something changes, whether it'sharder or more difficult a
challenge that makes this moreand more absurd as you go along.
So in an inherent way, like anysystem that causes you to feel
that way, you're not inherentlyalone in that.
But in a sense, like if youcould see it that way, right,
you are that child in Omelaslike you are the one suffering

(50:39):
for your community.
But there are people who willwalk away from that because they
don't want that.
That is not the way they seejustice.
That's not the way they seeThat's not, they, you know, they
would prefer that if you stareat the wall, that you have the
space to do that and all thethings that you need done still
get done.
Like that's, that's what thatis.

a.m. (50:56):
That, that, that story, by the way, is, is, is, is
basically the Jesus narrative,right?
A, a, a single being takinghuman form and taking out all of
the sins for the rest ofhumanity.
That that is that is thenarrative.
And now there are otherreferences that that are older
than Jesus.
And so, you know taking a purelyacademic and historical

(51:16):
perspective on it.
No, no religion talknecessarily, but but that is
that is that is the core of theof the of the Jesus story,
right?
God made flesh, taking on andsuffering exponentially.
To take on the inherent, youknow, kind of Badness,
unhappiness, sin of every otherliving human being and then to

(51:37):
be lived human being and all youhave to do then is accept and
You can be happy Because Jesushas already taken on the pain
for you

Sam (51:44):
So I actually decided to look it up.
It's actually called The OnesWho Walk Away from a Omelas by
Ursula K.
Le Guin.
Hopefully I pronounced thatright.

Scott (51:51):
Ursula K.
Le Guin.

Sam (51:52):
Thank you, Le Guin.
And yeah, so the story isbasically about searching for
something more profound, likethe true meaning of happiness,
and that the biggest problemwith our society is that we are
too focused on individual gain,and not enough on the happiness
and well being of everyone.

a.m. (52:07):
Mm.
Sounds like commie talk to me.
It's, it's it's fast.
I really, and I need to wraphere.
You guys can continue.
But you folks can continue.
You humans can continue.
I keep bouncing around thosethree.
I mean, you caught yourself thefirst time.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
The, the, the You know, every,every, every time the word sort

(52:28):
of communist is used in theWest, it's, it's, you know, in
response to some broader socialgood initiative.
But I, I, I read somethingyesterday that does.
Pretty, pretty solid.
Every now and again, you know,the internet delivers a
worthwhile meme.
And it was, and it was It's anow and then.
It was, it was Like, I'm not bigon meme culture, you know, but
every now and again you get onethat's like, Oh, this is, okay,

(52:49):
this captures an interestingmeme.
No, no, excuse me.
Historically, it has always beena bad idea to be in opposition
to student movements.
With the hindsight of history,it is always Always side with
the kids.
If kids are protesting, alwaysside with them, basically,
because historically they'regonna get proven right.
It's like, wow, okay.
I kind of sat and thought aboutthat for a couple hours last

(53:10):
night, trying to trace back and,you know.

Scott (53:12):
1988, when I first started taking the bus coming
down to New Haven to ride myskateboard around, in Beinecke
Plaza, right at Yale, was thismakeshift shantytown, in protest
of Yale's investment in SouthAfrica, at the time.
Yes.

a.m. (53:26):
Occupy Short memory.
Yeah.
Even more recently, Occupy WallStreet.
The, the undue power that thefinancial sector has and the
concentration of wealth, whichhas only exploded since Occupy
Wall Street the, the Vietnamprotests, the civil rights
protests, the climate protestswere from young people, it's
fascinating.
Yeah.

Scott (53:44):
That's true.
Pay attention to the studentmovements.

a.m. (53:47):
Pay attention to student movements.
History will prove them right.
It's fascinating.
Is that good?
Is that a wrap?
Sure, now that we've lost all ofour, Commies.
Okay, you know what?
Now you've got my book reviewout of this.
Marxists at the Arcade.
It's about Marxism, Communism,and video games.
You would like it.
Marxists at the Arcade.
Highly suggest reading it.

(54:08):
We've pissed off all of our proIsrael friends by suggesting
that the kids are correct.
It's a conversation to be had.
I'd really love to know, like, Idon't know if there's research,
but I'd really love to know howmany Zionists are actually
Evangelical Christians becausethey are, so Evangelical
Christianity believes, This isit.
That, that all the Jews have tobe Israel.

(54:30):
For the Messiah to return,because the first thing the
Messiah does when he comes backis kills all the Jews.
But they, but only if they areall in Israel.
And so there's this paradoxical,same thing.
We don't know.
I've done evangelicals fordecades and they're all in
Israel because If Israel isrequired, if Israel disappears,
the Messiah cannot come backbecause he has to kill them all

(54:50):
first.
There are moments where I dabblewith the idea of just never
learning anything again.
I don't want any more confusion.
This is true.
I know.
It's just like every time Ilearn more about a system, I
become more and more horrified.
Like every moment is just alevel of horror.
Like, what the, what the wall?
I don't know.
Every word you were saying, allI was in my head was From the

(55:12):
rivers to the seas.
Like, over and over.
Yeah, yeah, cool.
Good, good, good.
Thank you Scott.

Scott (55:18):
I'm gonna go sit and stare

a.m. (55:35):
Thank you for listening to Absurd Wisdom.
This is A.
M.
Bott, and, you know,conversation, real human
conversation never actuallyends, but episodes of podcasts
need to.
So we're going to end here.
You can connect with me onInstagram and TikTok at, at
Absurd Wisdom.
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(55:55):
community or online at mydae.
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Absurd Wisdom is produced anddistributed by DAE Presents, the
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Beyond Understanding nextThursday.