The Art of Being Unique, From The Cave to Community, Redefining Achievement, and The Unseen Gold.

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This episode delves into the complex dynamics of communication, identity, and personal growth in community development and education settings. It discusses barriers to community development, the influence of digital narratives, the challenges of miscommunication, and the importance of empathy in fostering genuine connections. Furthermore, it highlights the limitations of language, the emotional labor involved in expanding awareness, and the journey towards self-discovery and mentorship in education. Through personal anecdotes and reflections, it advocates for embracing personal growth, self-directed learning, and finding authenticity and fulfillment in one's pursuits.

You can find a.m. on Instagram and TikTok at @absurdwisdom. We are produced and distributed by DAE Presents, the production arm of DAE (@dae.community on Instagram and online at mydae.org).

The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the speakers and do not necessarily reflect the views or positions of any entities they represent. While we make every effort to ensure that the information shared is accurate, we welcome any comments, suggestions, or correction of errors.

You can contact us at [e-mail].

Episode Transcript

Sam (01:43):
So I'm super excited.
So today I had a meeting with myresearch mentor.
And, you know, as you know, I'vebeen working on this research
for like four years about LGBTservice provisions.
And of course, my researchmentor, I love them.
They're always pushing me out ofmy comfort zone.
So they say, hear me out.
Start a new one.
An entire new one and I waslike, okay, this doesn't come
without a reason.

(02:03):
So, you know, okay, where's thisgoing?
So she had seen the video thatScott had put up about me
teaching the students who speakSpanish HTML.
And so she was like, I likewhere that's going and I want to
see where you are currently inyour career and life and where
that leads to your research.
So like, what would you do toaddress gaps of where you are
now in your career?

(02:24):
And so I thought about it, and Iwas like, it would be really
interesting to do research onthe barriers that halt community
development in programs thatfocus on project based learning
through the use of digital toolsand mixed modalities, as well as
an exploration of digitalnarratives in terms of project
based learning.
So she was like, yeah, that'sgreat.
Do that.
So now I have an entirely newresearch project that's going to

(02:46):
be focused on with the work thatwe do here at DAE.
Yeah, I'm pretty excited.
So we were thinking through likethe initial thoughts of doing
interviews and focus groups, andI was telling Mo that it'd be
really interesting to do like apre and post survey analysis.
Kind of like a, a scale ofChina, like a Likert scale of
trying to understand, like, Howstudents are building
communities to the project basedlearning we have here and how

(03:09):
these modalities are affectinghow they see themselves and how
that affects them post programas well.
So I thought that was reallyinteresting.
So I'm really excited to diveinto that and explore that
because I've been doing a coupleof readings on that so far.
The effect of it as a projectbased learning and where that
research comes from.
So, yeah, so that basically thatis to say, DAE is not going to
have back to research.

a.m. (03:29):
We're interviewing sort of impact consultants just to have
sort of third party, you know,validation.
And, and research has beensomething that's kind of in, you
know, been on the back burnerforever because we do get asked
questions around, you know, howdo you do this?
I'm like.
Okay, I can tell you, but you'renot going to believe me, And so,
so traditional research that,that, you know, supports Not
even supports because like theresults support it but

(03:51):
traditional research that speaksthe language of, you know
Sometimes you can only explainthings in the language person
speaks.
Yeah, you know, no matter howtrue it is It doesn't matter.
It has to be in the language.
They speak and research is adifferent language.

Sam (04:04):
Yeah,

a.m. (04:04):
so amazing What does that start

Sam (04:06):
today?
It literally happened today.
I decided it today.
So I'm excited I might do acouple ethnographic studies
where I kind of sit in thespace.
I kind of a little bit ofthoughts, what I think, what I
feel, kind of do someinterviews.
If I I'm starting to IRBprocess, so I'm starting to get
the basically the certificationand start interviewing people
say like, I'm not going to hurtanybody through talking.
So that kind of thing.
So that process is going to behappening hopefully today and

(04:28):
then officially building out theresearch topic and idea and
question, and then building outthe interview question.
So it starts officially today,which is kind of exciting.

a.m. (04:37):
Cool.
What you're saying sort of, sortof, you know, raises a question
for me that I'm actually goingto hold and see if there's
anything either of you want totalk about.

Mo (04:44):
So I was, I was talking to my friend Dom and we were
talking about like he, he wasgoing with this on, but we came
to the conclusion, like, I don'tknow, maybe some of y'all agree.
Most conflicts happen because ofmiscommunication.
And so when you, when you saidsomething about like, you have
to speak in a way that the otherperson understands.
That, that reminded me of that.
I was like, oh, but not, not,it's not what I wanted to talk

(05:06):
about today, but it's just, thatjust made me think about that.

a.m. (05:09):
We get so hung up on the, on the right.
There's like this, this sillykind of analogy that I've used
over the years.
It's, it's, it's the sort oftraditional ugly American
tourist, right?
And you kind of go to, you know,wherever you got to, in France
these days, they'll speakEnglish to you, but, you know
you go to Malaysia and, youknow, you kind of go up to
somebody in the street and say,you know where is the museum?
And they're looking at you like,why?

(05:30):
Yeah.
You say, where is the museum?
Like slower and louder as if,you know, with no understanding
that like, it doesn't matter howclear your question is.
It's, it's not in the languageof where you are, you know.
You talk about this with gradstudents, like they go into the
workplace and it's like, youknow, I don't care how smart you
are in organizationalpsychology.

(05:52):
Business is not aboutorganizational psychology.
It is a foreign land.
You must speak finance andmarketing and, you know, at
least, at least baselineunderstand those things, right?
That's the language.
And if you're going to get yourideas respected, you have to
understand baseline theirlanguage.
So, yeah, and then at leastthere's conflict, right?
Because, yeah, and then.
Individually, like you and Ispeak a different language.

(06:13):
Scott and I, you and Scott,everybody speaks their own
language.
Like, words mean things.
Like, if I say success, thatmeans something to me, in my
language, it means somethingtotally different to you.
So, yeah.
You had some thoughts in themiddle of that?
Yeah,

Sam (06:26):
you know, it's funny.
I actually had that exactconversation with my mentor
because Like, I'm working somuch in queer stuff, right?
You would think, like, being ina queer org would make it, like,
Yeah, like, we're allprogressive, we all talk about
the same things, but it's like,Me and my mentor were laughing
because it was like, Yeah, themost anti queer places is queer
places.
Places, which is weird.
It's like, cause no oneunderstands each other.
Like all the young queer folksare like, we have to do this and

(06:48):
get people of color and blah,blah, blah, blah, blah.
And she was telling this reallyfunny anecdote about how, she's
a, she's a singer, she's anopera singer.
she's a part of this like queerorchestra.
Right.
And they're like, we have tomake statements about this like
political thing.
And the other side's like, no,we have to make statements about
this political thing, the samepolitical thing, two different
sides.
And she's like, no, we're,we're, we're an orchestra.
Yeah.
Like, we're, we're in arestaurant, so like, there's no

(07:09):
need for that.
And then these same people aregoing up to her and going like,
we need to have morerepresentation for people of
color.
She's a person of color, but shelooks white passing, so they're
like, you know, us white people.
And she was like, what?
Us white people?
What are you talking about?
Just you.
Just you.
Right?
What?
And we were talking about thisconcept of like, we were
laughing about it because, like,I had the same experience with a

(07:29):
lot of like young generationlike alpha.
Queer people were like, Let'sburn down the thing,
everything's horrible.
And I was like, whoa, whoa,whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa,
whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.
Our queer ancestors went througha lot.
Let's respect that, take a stepback.
I'm, I'm, I'm for the cause, butthis is a little intense.
And it would just kind of bethis like, the cat and dog
thing.
Like, all the queer people needto go away.

(07:50):
And I'm like, the old queerpeople, like, young people don't
get it.
And you're in the middle, like amillennial, like, okay.
I was just kind of talking abouthow different it is to kind of
enter different spaces where,you know, you have this like
idea of like, I don't know, likewhat justice is.
So like in my classes,everything's justice related,
right?
So if you're like, yeah, youhave privilege, right?
A person's like, yeah.
Tell me more.
And then, you know, you're bothbringing your sources that,
that, that, that, that, thatobviously it doesn't always

(08:11):
happen, but it's reallyinteresting to go out into the
real world and you're like, Hey,you have privilege.
And the person was like, howdare you say that about me
personally?
And I'm like, Whoa, I didn'texpect that.
Or it's like, Hey, maybe weshouldn't use the term spirit
animal.
That can be offensive toindigenous individuals and their
culture.
And it's like, let me prove allthese sources to why you're
wrong.
And I'm like, Okay.
And oftentimes these individualsdon't realize like a lot of my

(08:33):
experience cuts come fromindividuals who exist in that
space and have educated me.
And I've taken the space tolisten.
So I definitely agree with theidea of like, You know, you
don't always know what languagesomeone is speaking until
they're yelling.
You know what I mean?
Until they're like, Where is themuseum?
You're like, Oh, okay.
That's where we're going.

Mo (08:50):
Sometimes I take it as like, they're so comfortable with how
things are, and how theyperceive it.
Like, if someone were tochallenge it, they're like it's
already, I'm already good withit.
Why, why do you want to changeit up?

a.m. (09:00):
One of the very few things I, I, I don't like about the
fact that we run high schoolprograms is there's so much
stuff that I can't get into withhigh school students just
because it's so esoteric ormeta, you know and so I guess
I'm glad I still at least do alittle bit of grad school stuff.
So there's this whole kind of,you know, piece of the work that
we used to get into with quoteunquote adults about the layers
of what's happening incommunication, right?

(09:21):
And so when, when you get that,that first thing of, of, you
know, where is the museum?
And then the, where is themuseum at this point, what's
being communicated is not, Iwant to know about the museum,
right?
What's being communicated is inthe non verbals, which is that
you will, acknowledge that Ihave the master tongue, Like

(09:42):
there's some version of thatgoing on at that point without
even the person being aware ofit.
That what's being communicatedis you will be in my world.
I will not be in your world,right?
And so a lot of this, that when,when the thing gets escalated,
what starts to get, and evenwhen, before it gets escalated,
what's being communicated oftenis not the words, right?
Right.
And so I do this silly thing of,of, you know, with, with, with

(10:02):
grad students, this thing oflike, if I said Hey, hand me a
Kleenex, like that meanssomething.
And if I said, hand me aKleenex, that means something
different.
And if I say, hand me a Kleenex,that means something different,
right?
They're the same words.
It's the same transactionalrequest, but what's actually
being requested is verydifferent.
You know, that middle one is,Obey me.
The third one is support me, youknow, and the first one, maybe

(10:25):
he's just pure transaction ofjust give me the hand and and
failure to pay attention towhat's actually being
communicated in the, in the metaspace leads to a lot of conflict
as well.

Sam (10:35):
Like I run into that a lot of like a neurodivergent person
who can't read neutral faces.
They automatically default toanger and I've told people like
I if I misunderstand or I seemoff when I'm speaking to you, I
can't read your face.
I also can't do eye contact,like I've learned to count it
because it's like, oh, okay.
Which I've said before, but it'sjust one of those things that,
like, a lot of people, I don'tunderstand.
This is their first reactionwhen I tell them that.

(10:55):
They're like, really?
And then they look at me, angry,and they're like, What am I
thinking right now?
And I'm like, I don't know, butI'm scared.
I have been pulled into thatgame more times than I have
liked.
And then I just feel like cryingand I'm like, and then the worst
part is like after I getanxious, because I genuinely
can't tell if they're playingwith me or that now they're
like, Oh, I now have somethingover you.
Like I have power over you.

(11:16):
I can make you feel fearful.
And I get fearful.
They're like, it was a joke withthe same face though.
So they're just like, it was ajoke, like giving me this angry
face.
And I'm like, Is, is it?
And it's and that's the thing islike I feel like a lot and I
tell that to people becauseoftentimes that gets
miscommunicated or like I saythings that come off awkward or
I just don't have the right toneand people are like, oh, why why

(11:37):
do these and then one thing Ihate that people say to me is
like what i'm trying tounderstand what they say is like
Everybody feels this way.
Everybody everybody like asexamples like Mo, every time you
like for example, chew chips,everyone finds it annoying,
right?
You And then I would go recentlylike, well, who's everybody?
Can you like list them out tome?
Right.
So I like, can like address itwith each of these individuals.
They're like, no, it's just,it's not everybody.
It's just, you know, blah, blah,blah, blah, blah.

(11:58):
And I'm like, so why don't yousay that to begin with?
And I'll see you're, you'removing away from the subject.
I'm like, I'm confused.
And then that's when people getangry at me.
And that's really interesting islike, I read a lot of non verbal
cues.
So like, I look at their body, Ilook at how they're saying
things, like I go off of liketone, but then again, my, the
way I perceive your tone iscompletely misconstrued because
of the way genetically I wasborn.

(12:19):
I guess I can't read it.
It's just unfortunate for me.
So I read everything as angry.
So I live in a lot of fear.
And a lot of people have takenthat really personally where
it's like, you're just alwaysmisunderstanding people.
You're always doing, and I hatethat term.
You always blah, blah, blah.
You always blah, blah, blah.
And it's like never about myactions.
And then when it's like, okay,cool.
Like, Help me understand theaction like how can I improve

(12:39):
and it's like you just don't getit

Scott (12:41):
Yeah, I feel like Hyperbole is kind of embedded in
our way of speaking English andat least in the Northeast Maybe
a little bit more in certainother places, too It's always
like, that's the worst or that'sthe best.
Or like you were saying before,I love this.
I love cheesecake, you know,like the, everything is just
like as extreme as it can be totry to emphasize your point, but

(13:03):
you're not really sayinganything.

a.m. (13:05):
This certainly isn't a blanket statement, but, but, but
a lot of, you know, the, the,the on the ground, not from
politicians and people in power.
I think there's other metacommunication going on there,
but the sort of on the groundreaction to the, you know the
queer rights movements, thetrans rights movements, the,
the, any social progress.
What I most often, the mostcommon thing I hear when I

(13:26):
listen kind of to the metacommunication from people who
are resistant to it is aboutthemselves and specifically
Confirm that who I am is Whatwho I think I am All right
You're introducing these thingscreates existential crisis in me
And the reason i'm what i'mcommunicating actually is not
What I hear is not like i'mopposed to you Expressing this

(13:48):
about yourself that that whati'm actually expressing what I
hear expressed is confirmed forme that who I am who I think I
am Yeah And if you startintroducing all these other
things to it, then, then maybe Idon't know who I am, and that's
unacceptable.
And so there's this paradox ofthe pushback is actually not
about what they're pushing backagainst, it's about themselves.
Not fear, not like, oh, I mightbe blank, any of that, but just

(14:10):
the, even ahead of that, of justthe existential kind of like,
you know.
Because when there's one thing,whether it's religion or, you
know your, your genderidentification, whatever it is,
if there's one thing, like youare.
In, you know, southwesternConnecticut through to
northeastern maybe New Jersey,it's the Yankees.

(14:30):
You don't need to think aboutit, you know, that's what it is.
It makes life easy.
If you're in the northeasternpart of Connecticut through to,
you know, maybe lower Maine orsomething, it's the Red Sox.
That is what it is.
And it's simple, you know.
And we start introducing, youknow, these variations in it,
then like, well, is should I notbe rooting for the Yankees?

(14:51):
That doesn't make any sense.
It's a certain, like, so there'sa version of that that I hear
communicated at the meta levelwhen people freak out about,
about social progress issues,right?
It's not actually about thesocial progress.
It's about the existentialthreat to themselves.
Not again the kind of, oh, maybeI am blank.
It's not even that.
It's ahead of that.
It's Maybe I don't know what Iam or who I am.

Sam (15:10):
Oh, my gosh.
I have something reallyinteresting to share about that
because I did research on this awhile back.
So this is a concept calledsocial constructivism.
And so define, I'll try todefine it.
So social constructivism is away to uncover the ways in which
individuals and groupsparticipate in the creation of
their perceived social reality.
It involves looking at the waysocial phenomenon are created,

(15:30):
institutionalized and made intointo tradition by humans.
A socially constructed realityis seen as an ongoing dynamic
process that is reproduced bypeople acting on their own
interpretation and theirknowledge of it.
And so, interesting because ifyou connect it to this idea of
like, constructible models ofcommunication, right, they
describe it as the transactionalmodel of communication is this
exchange of messages between thesender and the receiver.

(15:52):
The two send and receivemessages simultaneously.
And every message has twodimensions, content and
relationship.
Content is the surface levelmeaning of a message.
It's what's said.
And when we share messages, weare both the sender and the
receiver of any message.
Communicated during an exchange,using this concept.
Social constructivism onlyexists because we give it
meaning as a society.

a.m. (16:12):
So, so in the fall, if you have space for it, come audit my
P638 class at UNH.
What you just said is literallyan entire semester, and so this
is, this is the basis of my workactually, is, is the nature of
reality being a languageconstruct.
That the fundamental reality anindividual walks around with is
made in language.

(16:32):
And, and actually we're going totalk about four layers, right?
So there's Content andrelational elements that comes
from Vatsalix's work, and thenBates and Pryor.
But even the context elementshave like three sub elements,
three ways you can break themapart, right?
And so everything that's beingsaid, so when I say Hand me a
Kleenex, there's content, theactual transaction.

(16:53):
And then there's relationship.
But there's three aspects.
A, I'm, I'm saying something ata meta level about who I think I
am.
I'm saying something about who Ithink you are and therefore our
relationship.
Right?
So when I say that, give me,hand me a Kleenex.
I'm saying I'm the one in powerhere.
I'm saying who you are issubordinate to me.
And then the last thing I'msaying is the actual appeal.

(17:13):
So the Kleenex isn't the appealthere.
The appeal in that statement isobey me.
Hmm.
And so every single piece ofcommunication that's going on
has these four things going onsimultaneously.
Everything.
And so, if you learn to listenthis way, the kind of, you know,
secret sauce we had in theconsulting side that made us
look like magic with people, isjust over time building up the
craft of listening this way, andyou can hear the person's actual

(17:36):
appeal.
And you don't get lost on theKleenex.
You hear, oh, this person wantsto be of aid.
Now how do we work with that?
And they're not even awarethat's what they're asking.
Right?
Or they're, they're asking otherthings, you know, support me or
reject me.
So a lot of people walk aroundwith negative appeals, right?
They say, can I, can I pleasehave the job?
And the appeal underneath isplease reject me.

Sam (17:55):
It's a curious question.
As a person who is both inpositions of authority in two
spaces, as an educator and, youknow, as a professor and
obviously as like, here in thisspace here.
Does that come in a lot intoplay in the work that you do?

a.m. (18:08):
There's a lot of caution, and I, and I, and I get it wrong
regularly.
But, but at this point hopefullyI have enough awareness to
quickly clean it up when I getit wrong, is to not pay, not
paying enough attention to thecontextual elements of what I
say.
And so I often, like at thispoint, not just practice in here
of, you know, ahead of time,saying I'm not recommending
this.
I'm just thinking out loud.

(18:29):
Because what happens in mydefault of a deep baritone
voice, I have a title, right?
CEO.
It has a certain weight to it.
Yeah.
I get enthusiastic about what Isay, because I really care about
the stuff I work on.
And so when I'm saying an idea,If I'm not careful, people are
picking up on the non verbals ofit and interpreting my appeal as
obey me.

(18:50):
As this idea is what musthappen.
And I'm just thinking out loudwith default non verbals of deep
voice, loud voice, highenthusiasm, high energy, etc.
And so I have to constantly kindof clean it up.
And then, you know, at timesit's useful to be aware that I
have access to you.
Thou will obey me in my nonverbals in my you know, and and

(19:11):
sometimes that becomes usefuloutside of here outside, you
know Yeah, so as an advisorthough it became much much more
useful Because I wasn't burdenedwith authority When you get the
professor title of the CEO titlenow the default of everything's
gonna have that contextual layerto it Yeah, and you gotta be
really cautious as an advisor.
You don't have that kind ofauthority You And so you could

(19:32):
be much more nuanced and kind ofplayful with how you're using
these things.
But you all, with students,without realizing it, you are,
thou shalt obey me, at least inthe early days.
And then they get to know you,it's like, ah, it's Mo, you
know, and they get a differentcontext, right?
But at least up front, and withsome of them, up front means
like the first nine months,maybe, you know, out of ten.

(19:53):
But if we're not careful,there's a lot of assumption
around what's being said thatpeople bring based on these
contextual elements of title andposition and, oh, you're the
instructor or you're the, youknow, whatever.
Hmm.

Mo (20:04):
Remind me of the first summer, the summer program we
ran.
It was one student called me Mr.
Mohameth.
And then further on, he waslike, yo, Mo.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Kind of switch.
Yeah.

a.m. (20:12):
That's it.
Right.
The relationship elements changeand you're so good at it, you
know without being aware of it,that you in the nonverbals are
constantly communicating thatyou should respect me, but you
should feel okay around me.
Right.
The nonverbals keepcommunicating that.
And so over time, people hearthat without even being aware
that they're hearing it.
And so they maintain respect foryou, but they, it's, it's mo.

(20:32):
And they start gettingcaricatures of you and they kind
of, right, you know, they starthaving fun with you and all
that.
Right.
Most people have to work atthat, right?
Some people just get born luckyof just, yeah, I just, I'm just
kind of comfortable with myself,and I'm chill, and this is the
contextual element.
But most folks are communicatingthings that they're not aware of
through all of the non verbals,through all the contextual

(20:52):
elements.
Even just how you stand, and howyou, you know, a great way to
end a conversation that youdon't want to say, hey, I'm
done.
I'm going to stand up and dothis and so my voice will fade
maybe, but like, if I'm, if I'mtalking to you like this and I
want to end the conversation, Ijust like to start doing this.
Yeah, no, it's good.
It's a great point.
It's a solid.
And, and the other person, mostof the time we'll start like,
okay, so this is good.

(21:13):
Like, so let's, let's catch upon this later.
You know, just the body languageof this breaks relationship and
we'll have them start to winddown the conversation for those
who do not.
Looking, which is all of you,since you're on a podcast, I
just, just shifted my bodyposition to kind of be at a 90
degree angle instead of face toface.
And you'd be surprised at whatkind of effect that has.
So there are ways to use thesecontextual elements to navigate

(21:36):
conversations.

Scott (21:37):
Yeah, body language is a big one.
In a previous Job that I had,there was a lot of folks.
It was retail and a lot ofpeople were, you know, rolling
in hot, you know, like I was oneof the older people and they're
like, are you the manager?
Immediately running up to me.
So I learned through mostlythrough like spiritual teachers
and stuff.
Like when you're facingsomebody, you're actually
creating that back and forthkind of like confrontation.

(22:00):
So a lot of times if somebodyhad an issue, they're showing me
something like that, that, youknow, here's my, my order is not
here or something like that.
You move over and you get nextto them and it gives a
subconscious impression thatyou're working on the problem
with them as opposed to thebarrier that they have to
getting what they want.
And it was, it became this sortof transformational thing that I
was able to share with otherfolks.

(22:21):
And I think I, you know, I'veseen it used a few times and it
was definitely Definitelyworking in like, you know, nine
out of ten situations, mostpeople are, you know, open to
getting some help when they feelthat way.
Some people are just, you know,their conceptual identity is
based on resistance.
So what can I, you know, whatcan I push against today?
Who can I push against today?

(22:42):
And that becomes you know, moreof a challenge of trying to
figure out, like, is there, isthere, is this really the
problem?
Is there something deeper that Ican't really address in, you
know, my role here?
But that, that sort of aligningwith them and working on the
problem together, I think, youknow, it really, really goes a
long way and so many differentavenues.

Mo (23:01):
Do y'all have book recommendations on stuff like
this?
I can read them.

a.m. (23:04):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,

Sam (23:08):
I'd say a lot of this a lot of counseling is where I learned
a lot of it But you can look upa lot of there's like a couple
TED talks on communication Iwrote a couple papers to you
could read about it, but look upsocial constructivism that's
what I recommend, but I say thebest thing if I were to ever
recommend it is just sit in aspace Like when you sit with a
student, sit with yourself andwatch.
Like a lot of people don'treally realize like like I keep

(23:28):
my body closed because I'm avery protective person.
So if you ever notice like Ialways sit like this.
But another thing a lot ofpeople don't notice is I always
sit kind of what A.
M.
's talking to, sideways.
But if you ever notice when I'mworking with a student, my body
language is open like this andnext to the student and I always
ask for permission to do it.
Remember when I mentioned whenwe were talking about
motivational interviewing and Isaid, Hey, don't sit on the

(23:49):
opposite side of the table, sitwith them on the same side.
That was me teaching you thatwithout you realizing it.
And the way I learned it wasjust a lot of like counseling
techniques, but you can justlook it up.
Like just being aware of yourown body and yourself, like why
you do the things you do, orjust even noticing someone.
You know, like they turn theirhead if they blink, or they say
a lot of specific words, likejust, it's just active
listening, but active watching.

(24:10):
Just go out in a park, watchpeople, see what happens.
That'll teach you a lot morethan any book could teach you,
and it's good to come to thoseconclusions on your own, and
have those expressions withothers, because that's a more
holistic way of understanding.
We are placed in the world as anactive citizen in the space.

Mo (24:25):
Yeah.
Yeah, technology is kind ofinteresting because when it
comes to phones, like we'retalking to someone, someone has
their phone on the on the tableor it's faced up face down.
I saw someone talking about likeif the phone is on the table, it
indicates like what the personhas to say.
It probably isn't importantbecause I'm paying attention to
my phone.
In case we're like students orfrom like my experience, like
we're open up a laptop.
I got to see what they'reworking on.

(24:46):
So I'm always next to them or ifit's on the desktop screen.
So sometimes I'll be thinking.
There is like this like thisteamwork that's just happening,
like, okay, we're going to fixthis bug.
We're going to build this coolgame.
So technology, technology iskind of interesting, but I feel
like there's, I've got moreexamples of negative with the
tech because it kind of isanother barrier.

(25:06):
Even with text messages, likethere's no hand gestures, no
body language you can go off of.
So I'm like so careful when I'mtexting somebody.
Unless it's like my best friendand we kind of already like
established, like, I alreadyknow what Mo meant by this or I
know what so and so meant bythis.
So technology is really tricky,but that's probably why the in
person thing kind of works verywell.
Versus like the online work fromhome, so.

a.m. (25:27):
Yeah, we grew up, you know the whole kind of facing versus
on the side is, is, is evenpredates us.
That's predator prey behavior.
Like a, a herd of, of zebras orgazelles and all that, they're
always vertical to each other.
And the thing that's comingperpendicularly is a predator.
The line comes up perpendicularto you.
A fellow gazelle is parallel toyou.
And you'll see lines come up andthen they'll go sideways.

(25:49):
To kind of put the thing atease.
Alright.
And then they'll come at you.
What comes at youperpendicularly in our animal
brain is, is a threat.
It's a predator.
Alright.
And so with the students ofsitting next to that, that's
herd behavior, right?
You're, you're triggeringsomething really, really primal
there, right?
The, the, not the caution, but abig caution for me on all this
stuff though, is, is where westarted of individual language.

(26:11):
Like what I just said was abroad generalization that is at
a broad general level.
True, but it's not, it'sdangerous to assume it's true
for you.
You are a nation of one.
And have your own specificlanguage, including the
nonverbal and contextualelements that are informed by
all kinds of things that areyour biology, your nationality,

(26:31):
your religion, your family oforigin, all that, and then your
specific set of experiences.
Right?
And so it's really a lot ofcaution on just assuming That
these principles are universalbecause they're going to vary
person to person.
And so the observation thingbecomes really, really critical.
And then even ahead of that,it's sort of like, you know, I'm
wearing glasses.
If these glasses were welded tomy head since birth, and they

(26:53):
had a very light blue tint tothem, that's how the world would
look to me.
And so when I look at you, Ithink You know, and you're
wearing, I don't know, what's itblue and yellow make green,
right?
So when you're wearing, like,something yellow, I think, oh
yeah, yeah, he's wearing, he'swearing green.
Or, I mean, I wouldn't call itgreen because I wouldn't be able
to see it, but you see what I'msaying?
Like, it would be inherent.
And so ahead of all of thisstuff, for me at least, and what

(27:14):
I tried, you know, we used totry to work on with clients is
the self part of it.
Is understanding what is thenature of my own reality
construct.
IE, what's the color of my, thetint of my own lenses.
And the better I can get inrelationship to that, the
clearer now I can startobserving other people because I
can, I can adjust for my owntinting as it were.
Like I see, you know, I havelike very, very clear sets of,

(27:36):
of, of lens tints on the world.
You know, they're not right, butthey're really firmly in place.
And so understanding that I can,you know, course correct when
I'm looking at people's behaviorand say, okay, that's not what's
happening.
That's what's happening throughmy filter, and now if I kind of
separate that out, what'sactually being communicated
here.

Sam (27:54):
think something that's useful is like understanding a
lot of the ways that people withlike neurodivergency operate,
because it's really interestingthat you say that, because a lot
of my friends, they give me toneindicators.
So it's something they placebefore the text to tell me.
Like joyous, happy, concerned,like it's like these sometimes
like little emojis or messagesAnd I inherently know like to
read this in that tone so thatthat doesn't get misconstrued in

(28:16):
technology And it's reallyinteresting because further to
the point that what I am kind ofbringing up is I don't know if
you ever heard of the allegoryof the cave But it's a story of
like just like a bunch of dudesright there all like chained up
And they face this, this wall,the cave, and the cave behind
them is open, right?
So they just hear like, echoes,echoes, echoes.
Every time someone talks, right,when they talk with each other,
it bounces off the walls of thecave.

(28:36):
Behind them is the light, right?
So they only see these shadowsmoving forward.
They see these sounds comingfrom the shadows, and they can
only ever see each other throughthe peripherals, right?
You take one guy out of thecave, you send him out into the
world, right?
He sees the sun for what it is,right?
Out there.
The loudness of the people, thegrass, everything, right?
Everything.
He has taken in an entire newperspective of the world and

(28:58):
then they put him back in thecave.
And he says, the other guys, youwouldn't believe what I saw out
there, all the things thathappened, and the guys next to
him were like, What are youtalking about?
That's not how the world works.
Crazy.
And, but now this guy has tolive forever in the same reality
with his mind forever expanded.
aware of what he's seen, butalmost unable to truly
communicate it because he feelsunheard because he's experienced

(29:20):
it.
And it's, it's difficult tocommunicate the experience that
someone else has never had.

Scott (29:24):
Okay.
Can't unsee it.

Sam (29:26):
The mind is expanded.
It can never go back.

a.m. (29:29):
it's Plato's allegory.
Can't unsee it and can neverexplain it.
There's no amount of explanationthat'll have the people in the
cave who were only looking atthe shadows ever understand it.

Scott (29:39):
Language fails.
Yeah.

a.m. (29:41):
Well, it's not that language fails, it's that
language isn't complete.
Again, this gets back to, like,everything is language.
Behavior we talk about speechacts in the work, right?
And so, you know, that tonalityI used is a speech act.
My shifting my body is a speechact.
It's communication, but outsideof words, right?
And so what's, what's, what'sneeded is other language.

(30:02):
For that, for that person todescribe actual, for the, you
know, for him to share, tocommunicate what it is he
actually saw.
And the word, the verballanguage is, is insufficient.
If, if just a different take onthat.
Like if I.
Take this pencil, I don't knowwhy I'm doing this on a podcast,
no one can see it, you know, I'mjust gonna have to cut it.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Now beware for theater.
A piece of paper.

(30:23):
So, like I do this, right?

Sam (30:27):
Pop the pencil through the paper.

Scott (30:28):
Yeah.
Tip of the pencil through ahorizontal piece of paper.

a.m. (30:32):
Pretend that went through cleanly, you know.

Sam (30:34):
Okay.
Right?
So the pencil gets pulledthrough the paper.

Scott (30:37):
Nice, nice drafting pencil.

a.m. (30:38):
Yeah, let's just say, you know.
It is a very nice pencil.
Yeah, let's say it's not a, youknow, it's just a clean, right?
Now, if you lived in purely twodimensional space, two
dimensions, right?
The third dimension doesn'texist.
What just happened?

Sam (30:50):
Something just broke your reality.

a.m. (30:51):
No, your reality is.

Mo (30:53):
I don't know.

a.m. (30:53):
This is a hole.
Out of nowhere.
This space emerges and it growsand then it's just there.
You wouldn't see the pencil thepencil exists in three
dimensional space.
All you'd see is from nowhere,this pinpoint opens up in two
dimensional space and grows to acertain size and there's just
there.
And just avoid the circle there.
Absent being able to see thirddimension, there's no thing you

(31:15):
could do in this space toexplain what just happened that
captures what actually happened.
You need to move into the thirddimension to have language, to
be able to understand whathappened.
And so if you take that now intoa psychological realm, you know,
folks are walking around in Xdimensional world, you know, a
certain fixed level ofdimensions of how things are.

(31:37):
And when you introduce themdifferent genders or different
religions or differentwhatever's, it doesn't compute.
There is no language in whichto, you know, you have to break
the reality in order to be ableto incorporate these things.
But if I break reality, then whothe hell am I?
Everything I know about myself,my whole sense of certainty is
grounded in this reality.

(31:57):
And so you introducing the ideaof a pen, three dimensions,
fundamentally calls intoquestion everything I know about
life and therefore myself in thething I call world, two
dimensions.

Sam (32:07):
So, I ran into that issue literally yesterday.
Because without thinking I wasnext to a couple of individuals
and this individual basicallybrought up like, Oh, I have two
laptops in my backpack.
And you know, there's a joke.
It was like, how many laptopsare you?
He's like, Oh, I have four.
And I was like, wow, imagine theamount of privilege.
And they said, I don't haveprivilege.
And I was like, youfundamentally do the ability to

(32:28):
buy a computer is a privilege.
And then the individual went onto say, yeah, but they're old
ones.
They're like, not good anymore.
They fell apart.
You know, I just need to usethem for what they do.
And I was like, again, thestatement still stands that
there is fundamentally a pointof privilege there.
Okay.
And then so on the conversationwent with the individuals around
me where one individual waslike, ah, I don't walk around
like i'm a prince.

(32:48):
I don't walk around like I haveall this money I don't walk
around like I own everything AndI said, yeah, I understand that
but it's important that we stillacknowledge that privilege
exists It is in the space itmust be spoken about even if
it's something that weinherently don't want to have It
inherently exists in all of us.
We can both exist at a point ofprivilege and oppression.
That's intersectionality That'sa core piece of it.

(33:08):
But If we never really talkabout the privilege that exists
in the space, even as a personwho holds it, we can't ever
address it, and so on and so on.
This went on until theindividual started speaking so
much about themselves, and somuch about their personal
perspective, that I had walkedaway from the conversation,
physically, and I don't thinkanyone even noticed that I had
just put on my stuff, and I tooka walk away, and I had no idea

(33:29):
where that conversation ended upTo the point that you're kind of
bringing up of breaking people'srealities, it's, I don't think a
lot of people talk about theemotional labor that comes from
the person who's the first tobreak that barrier for people.
Like I realize as a person who'shad the blessing to be educated
that a lot of times when I bringup terms like intersectionality,
privilege, and hegemonicmasculinity, people will look at

(33:52):
me like I have three heads andit becomes really defensive and
really aggressive reallyquickly.
And I'm often put off by thisbecause I'm so shocked.
And I realized like that is thesame person I could have ended
up had I not had the privilegeof education.
And that's something that kindof scares me is like, there's
not a lot of spaces where weallow that kind of communication
where people can have thereality broken in such a way

(34:15):
that's safe enough where there'sstill a net where you can
reassess yourself, regatheryourself and walk away from a
new lens.
It's almost like you never getto leave the cave with that new
perspective.
You're stuck in the cave.
And it's really, reallytraumatizing for a lot of
individuals.
And I think that's somethingthat a lot of people talk about,
is how sometimes aggressivecommunication can be, and how
traumatizing communication canbe, when it's not done in a way

(34:37):
that's safe for everyone andholistic.

a.m. (34:39):
Yeah.
I would, Sam put forth, I mean,for me what so is, the whole
purpose of education is to breakyou out of reality.
The purpose of training is tomake you more effective within
the existing reality.
Most schools are places oftraining, places where you get
better and better at beingeffective in the existing
reality.
And every now and again, someeducation happens.

(35:01):
And if you get a good instructoror whatever, right.
But for the most part, all theway up to higher education,
they're, they're, they're placesof training again, making you
more and more and better andbetter prepared for
effectiveness and efficiency inthe existing reality, but
education by its nature for me,the way I use that word is a
safe and yet quote unquotedangerous space.

(35:23):
Dangerous in the sense of itswhole intent is for you to step
outside of your reality, stepoutside the cave, outside the
water, outside the thing.
Have that certain kind ofexistential, you know, crisis,
and reform yourself into next,whatever next is right.

Scott (35:38):
Going back to like what Mo was saying in the beginning,
you know, talking about withyour friend about communication
being the basic problem.
One thing that kind of occurredto me a long time ago was, When
two people are having aconversation, there's actually
like, you know, four senses ofidentity having a conversation.
You know, there's who I think Iam and who you think you are and
then who I think you are and whoyou think I am.

(35:59):
Like having this engagement and,you know, depending on how you
align yourself with, either sideof those identities.
It really can turn intosomething that's like, you know,
not even clear that it'smiscommunication.
It's like everybody's beingauthentic, you know, in the
sense of the, what they think isauthentic.
But the outcome can be, wait, Imissed that.
You know, I missed the, I missedthe tone.

(36:20):
I missed something.
I'm, you know, I can't add likeemojis in real time to, you
know, like qualify what you'retrying to say or what you're
trying to convey.

a.m. (36:28):
what'd you stick up?

Mo (36:29):
What you just said.
A remind.
I'm, I'm not sure if this is a,I was trying to look for a quote
or something, but it was thegoal of education.
A, a person to learn to takewhat is real as real.
I forgot where I, where I'veheard it from, but it, that's
why I was looking up.
It, it reminded me of that.
Yeah.
I was trying to find the, theauthor or the speaker.

a.m. (36:45):
Here's a line from Carse, one of the first things I got, I
got a copy of Carse's Finite andInfinite Games when I was in
college.
I got a, a, a, a first, a prerelease edition, my, one of my
professors knew Carse, it just,it just spun my head.
And, and one of the first thingsthat caught me was this
distinction he makes, is that tobe trained is to be prepared
against surprise.
The whole point of training isto be prepared against you, that

(37:06):
you know that the reality sowell, that nothing can happen
that you're not prepared for.
Right?
And so a mechanic is really,really, really well trained to
the degree to which there's nocar problem that can show up
that he or she or they are notprepared for.
Right?
And so training is useful for,you know, mechanical things, for
fixing things, right?
So to be trained is to beprepared against surprise.

(37:28):
To be educated is to be preparedfor surprise.
To not know in advance what todo, but to have the capability
to engage with something that issurprising, that's new, that's
out of your reality, it'soutside the cave.
Right?
And be prepared to engage withit creatively.
And that, that's the, you know,sort of like, that, that
distinction of training andeducation just sort of just,
just hit me in the face, hit mein the, kick me in the teeth,
among other things in that text.

Sam (37:49):
I think something that not a lot of people who are in
education realize is thatlearning is a process and not an
outcome of education.
In that, you can be as holistic,you can be as self directed, you
can be creative.
very open to like crosscommunication in your class.
Like you might have this reallygreat idea for an activity to
teach about your syllabi or yourcourse.

(38:11):
Right.
You have this really great ideaof how it's going to come out
and it doesn't, it fails.
And unless you take the stepback to look at the process,
like how did you communicate,like, you know community
learning, how did youcommunicate how this process
will work, whether it's verballyor non verbally, and how did you
create that, did you alreadycommunicate that this would be a
failure and that yourexpectation, and then realizing,

(38:32):
like, okay, cool, maybe thisdidn't work out, what can I look
at to understand this processand learn myself, like, There is
learning in that failure.
There is learning in themessiness of it.
I don't think a lot of people ineducation realize that that is
an okay practice.
Like even for myself, sometimesI come up with these really
creative, nuanced ways toexplore ideas.
And it flops.
Students aren't interested.

(38:53):
They don't like it.
And I get really frustratedsometimes because I think to
myself, Oh, I plannedeverything.
It should be perfect.
And I recently came to theunderstanding of that was always
my problem.
That was always my problem is Ialways thought that inherently
it should work because I thoughtI understood the students But
that they could have beendifferent anything could have
been different and instead whatthe students were doing was
teaching me And I was learningto be a better educator because

(39:15):
the students were challenging mewithout even realizing it And so
like to your point Mo aboutcommunication and like kind of
relating this to education and Ithink that But the best kind of
learning comes as a process ofcommunicating both with yourself
as an educator in the space,communicating with the space
itself and communicating withyour students both verbally and

(39:36):
non verbally and then taking astep back to really step out of
the cave and see what you're notseeing and be open to breaking
your experiences into thefrustrations and shock and just
overall like experience of whatthat really is because that's a
gift.

a.m. (39:50):
When it's working well this is what our, you know, sort
of educator processes are, arethere for.
When Kyley and I were initiallysort of, you know, figuring out
how to, and then iterating onhow to do it, right?
The debrief process and the, youknow.
It is a collective opportunityto, to, you know, invite each
other out of a particular cavearound understanding a
particular student or, you know,and sometimes it becomes

(40:13):
mechanical.
And now we're just kind ofdoing, you know, a process check
on students and who's, who's,you know, who's 80 percent done
is 40 percent done and thatstuff's useful.
But the real value of thosedebriefs and those, you know,
the two o'clock meetings and theseven o'clock meetings before
and after sessions is, is this.
It is.
To the most reliable way I'vefound out to kind of make sure

(40:33):
that I'm outside the cave asoften as possible is community.
A community of practitioners.
Right, and the community can bejust two.
Like Mel and I had the best ofthat relationship that I think
I've ever had.
But just someone else aroundwhom you're having meta
conversations about the work.
Right.
Because those meta conversationsabout the work, inherently we're
both in different caves, and ifwe're focused and committed, we

(40:55):
can kind of point out, Oh, yeah,just stop right there.
You realize what you're sayingabout client X is from the
context of the cave you're inwith them, to keep using that
analogy, right?
And what if X, right?
On the failure thing, Sam, whenI think about my grad student
classes, all but one of them,The consultation class has, has
an outcome to it.

(41:15):
And so that's designed to getsomewhere.
And, you know and sometimesfailure happens absolutely.
And then it becomes learning andit becomes, yeah.
But all my other classes thereare designed for failure.
Like I am looking for, it'sparadoxical.
I'm successful if there'sfailure.
And so like that P638 class Imentioned, like I, I
intentionally, and I'll tellstudents this, you know, halfway
through the course.

(41:36):
I intentionally have so much inthere and so much conceptual in
there.
It's designed to kind of havethem be like, What the fuck?
What, like this just like, Ican't.
I had one student that was earlyin the teaching, like Slam, I
remember, I'll say his firstname, Nate.
Yeah.
18 years ago.
At one point, like, you know,the fourth session in, like slam

(41:58):
his computer closed down andjust, and I, you know, I'll,
I'll just address everything inthe room.
I did not slam it down, likeangry, angry, but just, you
know, it's kind of close it andjust, you know, and I said,
what's up Nate?
And he goes, we're 4 classes inand, and I, and I, you, you
still haven't said anything thatI feel like I can write down to
remember.
And I'm like, yeah, let's, andit became great that like that
whole session pivoted on thatbecause we got to, we got to the

(42:21):
failure, right?
And that's the kind of, I'mlooking for that failure, that
failure of how you know how toengage in learning.
I want that to fail.
Because I'm interested in adifferent kind of learning for
you, at least to get you exposedto.
And so the, there's nothing towrite down.
Cool.
We got the failure on it.
And now let's talk about whatthere might be when there isn't
stuff to write down.
And how that's not better, but adifferent, it's a different

(42:43):
game.
It is the, you know, the gamethat's about, oh, what other
dimensions might there be?
Within the space, there's lotsto write down.
That's all very useful.
But until you get like exposedto stuff that you have no way of
writing down, because you don'teven have the language for it
yet, you can begin to questionYou know, how else am I to
engage?
So, you know, I think what thatfailure thing looks at, most of

(43:04):
my classes are designed to getto failure meaning failure of
how it is we learn, how it isI'm supposed to learn, how it
is, who it is I'm supposed to beas a student.
then it gets interesting.
And then people stick around.
He said a call prior to the wayI was late for the podcast is,
you know, a student from 17years ago, who then kind of
interned with me and worked withme.
And now, you know, she's like apeer and a colleague and a
friend.
That's what gets interesting.

(43:24):
And sometimes it lasts fordecades.

Sam (43:26):
That's really interesting.
I've been kind of going throughthat process myself of just
utter failure.
Like yesterday, I'm going to befully transparent.
I just full on cried yesterdaybecause I think I was looking at
all my colleagues that came frommy high school and they're like,
doctors, mayors, lawyers, theyhave their own companies.
And I just sat with myself andeven I was even just looking at

(43:47):
my partner and I was like, wow,you all did really great things
with your life.
What did I go wrong?
And I was like, I felt so likedejected and sad, like couldn't
even finish my degree.
Like I was just coming at myselfleft and right.
Like I just was bawling my eyesout.
Like I, like I even stepped awayfrom my partner cause I didn't
even want him to see it.
And I was just sitting there sosad and just reflecting on all

(44:07):
these things.
And something that I'd likerealize is like somebody had
recently sent me a text.
And they said, you're a reallygreat educator who cares deeply
about your students and you aremeticulous to every last detail.
And in the same vein, I wassitting in my capstone class,
just zoning out.
I want to say, I just don't knowwhat to do with this thing.
And I just like, I was sofrustrated.

(44:28):
I turned and I was like.
Why don't you just do this?
This is an option for you.
Like, I hadn't thought aboutthat.
Thanks.
I'm going to write that down.
And I was like, what?
And I just sat there for areally long time, just in
distance, like deep in thethought about everything.
And I was just like, wow, Idon't have all this degree.
Like I'm a failure.
There's nothing I can do.
And then sitting with all thisfailure, I realized like I have
been deeply miscommunicatingwith myself.

(44:48):
Like, it's just like this ideathat like, I am not enough.
What I do is not enough.
Therefore I'm not enough.
I'm always on edge.
And.
I realized that, like, I juststarted this new narrative, this
new conversation with myself,which was like, what if, just as
a perspective, I am enough,right?
Because I thought about thisdeeply.
There are educators that I knowthat have, like, four PhDs and

(45:08):
work at a community college, andI couldn't get it.
I was so frustrated andconfused, like, how I wish to be
you, how I wish to have what youhave, how privileged you are,
how frustrated I am.
They were happy.
That was their thing, that theywere happy.
They were making an impact.
And then it hit me is like,despite what the world
communicates to you, despitewhat people communicate to you,

(45:29):
right?
If your wants and needs arevalid and important and enough,
right?
You will find the thing that isyours, right?
And wherever you end up is not afailure, right?
That is just what the worldcommunicates to you is that we
always have to chase more andmore and more, right?
And when you come into aconversation with people about
like these pains you have like Idon't feel like I'm enough

(45:49):
oftentimes your friends Willjust yeah, yeah, you're great.
You're great.
You're great.
You're great, but there's neverthe truth of like no you messed
up You're trash bro.
Do better.
Like here's the things you needto do to better and people don't
want to hear that When youreally sit down and think about
it, right these frustrations inclass, right?
These ideas that you have to geta grade these ideas that you
have to be all of these thingsif all of that went Away, if all
that communication stopped forjust a moment Could the reality

(46:11):
you've built for yourself bedestroyed in the way that you're
talking about?
Could you create thisenvironmental space for yourself
where you can learn the thingsyou want to learn, explore the
things you want to explore, andjust be good at it?
Like, if you are just the bestassociate at selling clothes,
that is enough.

(46:32):
And I don't feel like that issomething that's communicated
enough as individuals.

a.m. (46:36):
I have an answer to your question of can you and the
answer is yes, because we havenow can you do it in scale?
I don't know what thousands ofpeople that through through, you
know, the Historical programsand then this thing is about,
you know, the kind of continuingto figure out how to do it with
high school students sorry youhad that experience yesterday
And it sounds like it was You ofit, a sort of healthy, you know

(46:58):
journey to go on in terms ofwhere it sounds like you may be
landing on it.
One, one of the silly sort ofvictories that I, that I would
enjoy in the advisory work andnow it's not a big deal anymore.
It's sort of gotten normalized,but you know, in the nineties
and early two thousands, you'regetting like really, really,
really senior executives andlike global hundred companies to
like quote, The Grateful Dead orRage Against the Machine.

(47:19):
The guy put like, you know, sothere's this story, you know,
the dead were like this amazinglive band.
Their whole thing was livemusic.
The albums were mediocre atbest, and some of them are just
horrible, right?
Live music.
And they'd play like 100, 150,180 shows a year.
Like they were on the roadconstantly for three decades.

(47:40):
You know, a couple of years theytook off here and there in the
mid seventies, but yeah,constantly.
At some point in the mid 70s asthis interview, they're asked so
like, how did you get to be thebest at this?
Like you redefined what a, whata band could be.
Like, how did you get to be thebest at this?
And Garcia laughs and says, no,no, no, man, you don't get it.
We're not trying to be the bestat what we do.
We're trying to be the only onesthat do what we do.

(48:00):
And that would be a conversationwith executives around like
strategy.
And brand, it's not about beingbetter, you know, if you're
Reebok, it's not about beingbetter than Nike.
It's about being uniquely Reebokand being better and better and
better at that.
And so you're right, Sam, whatwe do in the world is we give
you, you know, benchmarks andsay, now weigh yourself against

(48:21):
that.
Are you good enough?
Are you better than, are youless than, whatever.
As opposed to what you'repointing to and what we've
always tried to create in ourenvironments for 30 years, and
hopefully we're, you know,creating here, is you are the
benchmark.
Now, there's no slacking on it.
Like, it's a higher order ofrigor than traditional school,
actually.
But the benchmark is not anyexternal thing.

(48:43):
It's you.
How are you going to become themost rigorous, powerful,
grateful dead version of you?
Because no one can compete withthat.
It's not about competition.
You're a unique expression.
It's, again, it's how youdevelop artists, right?
How do you find your artisticvoice, the singular voice that
you have?
How do you find that, claim it,and build masterpieces with it?

(49:03):
Whether that masterpiece ismaking, like, insane, like,
insane bacon, egg and cheesebagels, man.
And like, that is your thing.
And you are like, people eatthat and they think they just
had a Michelin star, you know,like there's no good or bad
scale on it.
Just what is your thing?
And are you willing to dig sofar and be so rigorous to bring
it out in the way that you only,you can at this highest possible

(49:27):
level and you die.
Like I said, I actually did aHolberton talk.
Around you're never going to gethappy.
You can't get happy.
You're either going to startfrom happiness or you're not.
You're going to approach thingswith happiness or you're not,
but there's no way to get happy.
There's no way to get happy.
And it's all just iterative.
It's like iterative.
It's, it's, it's, this is mymasterpiece now.
And in a year, there's anothermasterpiece.
It's even deeper expression tome and the deeper one, deeper

(49:48):
one.
And I think victory in life isto die with a fucking paintbrush
in your hand, reaching for onemore stroke.
On the next masterpiece that isyour expression.
Yeah.
But I don't think it's about,you know, titles or, or
accomplishments.
Those things are great, I mean,along the way, sure.
But that's not, like, it's you,man, it's you.
Who are you, and how are yougoing to bring that out in the

(50:09):
most powerful way?
Yeah.

Sam (50:10):
Well, I have actually a question for you, since that
kind of seemed, like, that'sEverything a.m.
Was describing kind of remindsme of you.
Like you're always doingsomething and they're always
like doing it well and you'realways exploring these new
horizons.
Like how did you get to thatpoint yourself?

Mo (50:24):
So like my, my my past system and education is pretty
non traditional, like afterleaving a university and going
to Holberton, but uh, for me,like I always wanted to be an
inventor, always wanted to makestuff.
So I, like.
When I was young, I liked towrite like books and stuff, but
I never thought I'd be a writer.
I was always into tech.
So tech is kind of like I forgothow I told this, but it's like
what I code.

(50:44):
I didn't think I would bewriting code.
I thought I'd be some kind ofelectrical engineer and I wanted
to like invent things that, butfor me, I guess like that is my
art.
And if people can experience it,that experience, experience it.
Then they have like a part of mefor example, like me shipping my
apps on the App Store.
I like, I'll tell kindly if I gointo New York and I see someone
using my app, it's like, that'skind of cool.

(51:06):
It's like you're using somethingthat I made.
Everyone has access to it.
It's like a part of me is onsomeone's phones and it's like
they get to experience my ideasand my creations.
So like even on the, I have awebsite called mostudios.io, but
I have a, I have a page withprojects up there, and I'm going

(51:26):
on Twitter, now known as Xpeople are posting their ideas,
and some of them are likesimilar to the things I'm
building, but they're not mythings, so my version is you
know, and they're doing somereally cool stuff, but if I just
stay to what Mo wants and whatMo envisions, it's gonna be,
it's gonna be really dope,because when they play around
with it, it's gonna be, this isMo's version, and I think of it

(51:48):
as like they have my version ofa book I wrote.
Yeah.
Because they're experiencing itthrough software and stuff, so
that's kind of how I express itthrough tech, but maybe some, I
brainstorm like writing booksand drawing stuff too, but like
for right now, that's kind of mydomain.
It's like this writing code islike my way of illustrating my
ideas and people get toexperience it visually.
Through their day to day lives,whether it be a game or a useful

(52:10):
tool.
So, yeah, this is like, mycomputer is like my canvas right
now and then I'm publishing itthrough, through the web.

Sam (52:17):
Do you ever feel like your experience as an educator here
contributed to that narrativeyou built for yourself or like
that, that want?

Mo (52:24):
Yes, because the, the students they, they want to, so
what we had is I, I Talk aboutenchantment, like I get, I get
excited when they're excitedabout their ideas, or we're on
the same goal, like thiscommunity.
So the community here, thecommunity I like when I was at
Holberton, education has alwaysbeen my highlight of education
for me has been like atHolberton when I'm around people

(52:45):
who want to achieve the samething and build just cool stuff.
So, when students want to dosomething similar, that kind of
excites me, and the word we use,enchantment, enchants me to go
do the same.
And, yeah, so, and, some of themjust blame, I think what really
got me started this year was astudent was like, Mo, where's
your stuff?

(53:05):
He was like, what did you build?
And I was like, no, I built abunch of stuff.
But I realized like it waslocally on my computer.
I didn't actually put it outthere.
So when students are coming upto me like, yo, Mo, what did you
build?
Like, what's the domain?
Where do I go find it on the appstore?
I was like, okay, I gotta, it'stime for, it's time to start
publishing.

a.m. (53:21):
That's great.
That's great.
That's a, again, the level of,of Like, what's required of an
educator to educate versustrain, right?
Is receptivity, that kind ofthing.
It's like, oh yeah, yeah, yeah,I'm not, I'm not, like, over
you.
We're doing the same thing.
I'm more, I'm further along thepath than you in exploring my
voice, my work.
But it's like a reminder of, ohyeah, we're actually out for the

(53:42):
same thing.
And you're right, I haven'tpublished my stuff, let me
publish my stuff.
As opposed to, I got thecredential, I don't need to show
you anything.
I got the PhD, I'm teaching, Idon't need to show you shit.
Right?
Like a traditional teacherwould, you know, might take that
mindset, you know.
Like I proved to the people whohired me, you know, I don't need

(54:03):
to prove it to you.
But you don't even take it fromthat way.
It's just like, yeah, there's athere's a there's a, there's a
caution in the, in the, in thesocial media age that you're not
susceptible to around this kindof, you know, we're not trying
to be the best that we do.
Try to be the only ones that wedo, you know, kind of finding
your own voice and just pushingthat is you know, right now a
lot of people are, they thinkthey're in that space, but it's

(54:23):
not different.
Not finding your own voice.
They're finding their own ego.
And it's not about like myunique voice and my masterpiece.
It's about my brand.
You know, it's not actually mycommitting deeper and deeper to
my work.
It's my crafting more and moremy unique image.
And that's sort of like, ah,whatever.
Like, you know, I just want toclarify for everybody listening,
like that's not what we'repointing to, you know, we're not
pointing to, again, like withother things, not that image is

(54:46):
bad, you know, not the, but, butthat's not what I'm pointing to
when I say deeper and deeperunique expressions, it's the
work, whatever your work is,coding, writing, painting Bagel
making, whatever that is.
Down here in New Haven East, ifyou haven't found it, East Rock
Bread.
East Rock Bread on Stage Street,like two doors down from Gather.
They just open like, for likefour hours a day, three days a
week, Friday, Saturday, Sunday.

(55:07):
Holy shit, the bagels there.
I love Olmo, Olmo, love Olmo,but holy shit, the bagels are
ridiculous.
And this one, they do, they makebagel, for like nine hours a
week, they make bagels and acouple of loaves of bread.
That's it.

Scott (55:20):
Starting to host shows and stuff too.

a.m. (55:22):
Are they?
Yeah,

Scott (55:22):
I don't know where.

a.m. (55:23):
But just like, you know, and they are amazing.
This is an artist or is there acouple of artists?
You know, it's phenomenal.
They're not trying to like bebetter or whatever.
They're making, you know, Ithink I got two more pumpkin
Seed bagel last week and Iliterally pulled my, I got it.
I got in the car and I'm drivingup to, you know, to, to, New
Milford and I literally, I tooka bite out of the thing.

(55:44):
I literally pulled over.
I'm not kidding you.
I pulled over and I'm like, I'mnot, I'm sitting here and
enjoying this bagel.
Like it was that good.
And to me like that, just, youknow, that that's, that's what
I'm talking about.
Like we're just doing our thingand we're doing it so well.
You're going to pull the fuckover to enjoy a bagel.

Scott (56:02):
And they're not telling anybody about it.
Other people are telling youeverything about it.

a.m. (56:05):
This is what happens when you got your thing.
People spread you, man.
You don't need to worry aboutyour, I say this somebody, Mo
and I know Scott knows, I guessreally try to convince me to,
you know like you got moresocial media, you got to be more
positive, like, you know, awhile back, more polished, more
polished.
I said, here's the deal, man.
I don't mean to offend anybody,but here's my relationship with
it.
If you are, you ever see rawaluminum.

(56:26):
Yeah.
All right.
Like just a hunk of this, like,it's like blackish silverish
metal.
So if you're selling aluminum, Iget it.
You got to polish that shit up,get it sandblasted, get it all
polished up, put it in a velvetbox with a bow on it.
And then people are going towant to buy it and say, Oh, look
at this shiny silver, right?
I get it.
So I don't sell aluminum.
I got hunks of gold and I canput it in a brown paper bag that

(56:49):
people going to line up to buyit.
You know, and so I'm not worriedabout putting, I'm worried
about, can I get better andbetter and better at mining gold
and teaching others how to minefor gold?
And they will buy it and it'sraw form.
They don't need a pretty box onit.
Nothing wrong with pretty boxes,but like, that's not, you know,
if you're still diggingaluminum, if you're still
selling aluminum, then maybedon't focus on the shiny box.

(57:11):
Focus on what is your gold?
And once you got your gold, thenyou also want shiny box.
Cool, great.
But find your gold.
Find like what it is you canexcavate that nobody else can
excavate.
And then maybe if you want toworry about brand, whatever.

Sam (57:22):
It was funny, I fell into the opposite of Mo.
Where my whole thing was aboutbuilding a brand.
Because that's all I had is likeI was never like good at the
thing.
Like I'd care about a thing alot and then no one would care.
Like a lot of my stuff is likequeer work and I have been
bashed so many times about itthat I've just given up on it.
And it's always like, Oh, likelook at all these amazing people
doing a PhD.
What about you?
And I'm like, I'm figuring itout.

(57:44):
I got it.
They're like, yeah, that's notgood enough.
Do better.
Or like, you're just not thisenough.
Like I remember being studentcouncil president and I was, I
was bashed so much.
I just straight up quit becauseit was so exhausting for me as a
person, even though I careddeeply about the work.
And then I would try to getthese mentors who were like
about like education.
I'd be super excited to workwith them I get

a.m. (58:01):
ghosted

Sam (58:02):
and then these are these mentors who were like, yeah, I'm
so great Like I care about allthese students and I'm like and
you threw me away Great becauseI wasn't enough great and it was
just like this constant thing SoI gave up entirely on everything
and I just kind of floatedthrough life And it's really
funny because now I'm just inthis space where I'm trying to
refigure out what that isbecause I've left social Media,
it was just so unhealthy like Irealized at some point like I

(58:22):
had four social media accounts Iwas running.
I was trying to post contentdaily.
I was constantly writing likeyeah I cared about my research
But I could never get anybody tocare about what I was saying or
what I wrote about And Irealized this year I got to this
point where I wasn't doing goodat any of my college classes I
just I was frustrated.
I'm like what the hell thisisn't who I am And I realized
it's like I didn't want to writeanything I didn't I don't I
don't want to say what I want tosay on the paper because I don't

(58:44):
care Because it's like, why thehell am I gonna spend two hours
writing this stupid thing foryou to give me a stupid grade
and stupid feedback I don't careabout.
I don't care about my cl likeyour class, and I don't care
about this.
Like, I don't care.
I'm just here because I need astupid piece of paper.
That's where I'm at in thisspace right now.
And I realize it's like, Ihaven't been playing board
games, I haven't been writing, Ihaven't been drawing, I have

(59:06):
done I haven't been dogtraining.
These are all things I used tocare about and I care about
nothing.
I'm in this space where I careabout nothing right now.
And it was really interesting.
I just, I was just sitting thereand yeah, yeah.
So that's actually funny.
Yesterday I was sitting there,I've done with all my work and I
was telling Kyley.
I was like, I've done everythingyou've asked me to.
I'm going crazy.
Give me something.
I was just like, I don't haveanything for you.
I'm like, okay, fine.
And he's like, all right, canyou come up with this?
And I was like, cool.
I did it.
He's like, it's been an hour.

(59:26):
I'm like, but I did it.
And he's like, Okay.
Like, you're always coming upwith all these processes really
quickly.
I'm like, yeah, like now what?
Like now what's the next thing?
Give me the next thing.
He's like, you need to like,take a step back.
Like even my mentor was like,take a step back.
And I'm, and I realized like,for me, it's always about like,
cool.
You like this thing?
Cool.
That's all I did.
My whole thing has always beenon other people.
It's always been other people.
I've never been my thing.

(59:48):
Like I built my entire thing onmy queer identity.
Cause that was anything I wasgood at.
I only went to this collegebecause it was some guy I liked.
And then it's like, cool.
I just happened to be good atthis thing.
I just happened to be good atthis thing.
it's really funny because insitting with the students a lot,
which is really similar to whatyou talk about, Mo, is like,
sometimes I see students beingthere like, if I don't go to a
top 10 school, I'm not goodenough.
And in my head, I'm like, I'vebeen there, it's going to work,

(01:00:08):
good luck, you know, but I don'tsay that to them.
And I'm like, okay, why doesthat matter to you?
Because then I'm not goodenough.
And in my head, I'm like, Andit's just really funny to see
someone just say things and justbe like yeah I would write this
thing but it's not enough and Ilook at them like and it feel
kind of bad because sometimes Idon't know like and like This
school doesn't care about youlike not to be a jerk but like
write the thing you like becauseat the end of the day the school

(01:00:31):
just cares about getting yourmoney and making profit out of
you and like how this schoolwill make you the best person in
the future So say that.
Bottle them up.
Blah blah blah blah blah.
You look great.
Still write the things you like,but like, at the end of the day,
like, you're gonna get thatthing you care about.
You're gonna get there becausethe school only cares about
this.
Go for that, but at the end ofthe day, realize that that's
what the school is.

(01:00:51):
It's a conduit to get where yougotta get.
Explore the things you want toexplore.
Try the new thing.
And if you don't get into a topten school, it's great to be a
big fish in a little pond.
Go for it.
Have that energy.
And it's really interesting tojust have that perspective.
Because I think in my head,maybe I shouldn't be saying that
outright.
Like, you know, screw the topten school.
Just do it.
Just go do the thing.
And then have these studentslike, just change entirely like,

(01:01:13):
their personality, feel excitedor like, Oh my gosh I missed
this one specific thing on thisexam.
And I go, guess what?
You're already good at thething.
You're good.
You're, you're fine.
I'm proud of you.
I love that for you.
Or just like, when I look attheir thing, I'm like, you did
that?
That's so exciting.
Like especially with the onlineSynchrony students I work with
is just, how are you?
Good.
I'm happy.
Like how are things?

(01:01:33):
And just hearing about theirlife brings me so much joy.
And I realized that was thething I cared about.
That's the thing I'm good at islike, I've always been really
good at just being the personlike, yeah, man, F school, this
place is the worst.
Nobody likes this.
I don't like, I don't want to behere.
This is awful, but we're heretogether.
So we got to figure it out.
Let's do it.
Like, yeah, stuff is miserable.
Yeah.
Stuff is sad.
Yeah.
I want to cry on the floor too.

(01:01:54):
Let's cry together and get upand go do the thing.
Like, and I, I've seen a lot of,and I realized something that
was hitting me.
It was like, I was sitting thereso sad.
Right.
Looking at the LinkedIn, allthese people.
Right.
And I realized.
Half of these people were mystudents that I had trained and
mentored and I had seen andpushed and had conversations
with and been through all thisstuff and like sent them to

(01:02:14):
these programs and I, and I didthe math and I found 80 percent
of my students went to bedoctors and that blew me away
and then I remembered that, Iwas actually, I was sitting in
my capstone class still thinkingabout this frustration and goes
Hey, do you remember me?
I was like, what?
No.
And she goes No.
I saw you at a graduation, I'dlike this thing for transfer
students, and you're the reasonI transferred and you're the
reason I did what I did.

(01:02:35):
And then I got another studentwho said the same thing.
And I started to realize likethat was my thing was always
helping people.
Even my partner was like, I gaveup on everything in high school.
And if it wasn't for you whobelieved in me, I don't think I
would have been where I amtoday.
And that's why I wanted to be inyour life because you were just
this really beautiful ray oflike a sunflower that never got
sun from other people, eventhough you're always giving it

(01:02:55):
to others.
And it, like, it's just like,it's amazing, and I think that
that's just like a beautifulthing that we're able to give
with education that not a lot ofpeople talk about, it's like,
you never know what you'recommunicating, and you have
something, but if you're chasingthat ego thing like what I am
kind of been speaking to is,you'll, you'll kind of not water
your plant, your thing.

a.m. (01:03:14):
I've said this to Kyley a couple times and I'm realizing
like shame on me for not sayingit to you directly, Sam.
Like I marvel at your ability tolike have and I value your
ability to have like this real,serious, legitimate, and
rigorous commitment todifference and advocating for
difference.
While having a really clear headabout shit's got to get done.

(01:03:38):
Like having solid, like a, likewhat I would call a business
mindset.
Those two things combined areinsanely powerful and they're
rarely together.
You know, the, we got to moveforward and there's no
compromise on valuing andadvocating for difference.
Like in the world right now,those two things are odds.
And so it's one of the thingsthat you, that you bring here,

(01:03:59):
that unique expression that likethat, like I would encourage you
any ways you want to, you see toyou, whatever, like that dual
thing, that unique kind of, youknow, is spectacular.
And I, I, I get less justpersonal value, less concerned
about, like, I don't, do I saythis?
In the face of somebody, youknow, sort of having, energy for
things that I think are justlike, you know, hypnosis or, you

(01:04:22):
know, social programming orwhatever.
I get less concerned abouttrying to talk them out of it.
And I'm more concerned aboutencouraging them to keep the
little spark of whatever thething is alive and growing.
Because that spark, if it growsenough, We'll burn away the
other stuff internally, right?
In a way that, that no amount ofMike trying to convince them

(01:04:43):
will to let go of these thingsthey've been programmed around.
Yeah.
And again, I think we do a, adecent job at it relative to
what we will do in five yearsand certainly a better job of it
than, than most educationalinstitutions with these kids of
really, really helping themclaim kind of whatever that
internal spark is like, youknow, There's a bunch of kids,
but I'm thinking about, youknow, in particular, like that,

(01:05:04):
that, that kid, when he's 50,he's going to talk about you.
I'm not kidding.
Like the pivot you've had onthat kid's life is it's, it's,
it's going to be for the arc ofhis life.
And it wasn't like things you'retelling him not to do or don't
think, right.
It's what you awakened in himinternally.
That's his, you didn't give itto him, but like, it just, you
know, it's like that fire gotstarted and now that fire is

(01:05:26):
just going to sustain fordecades.
Yeah.

Scott (01:05:29):
Kind of reminds me of the, was it Maya Angelou quote?
People forget what you say andwhat you do, but they always
remember how you made them feel.
That's kind of, you know, how itall feels here.
It