This episode is a discussion surrounding the importance of results versus self-image in both professional and personal contexts. The conversation branches from the struggle for balance in an organization, where results matter but should be an expression of the employee's humanity instead of at its expense. They also discuss the role of self-awareness, the effect of the corporate culture on creativity, and the importance of the individual's contribution to the collective. Mentioned examples cover for-profit and non-profit companies, as well as artistic institutions like theater companies. This eventually evolves into a dialogue about societal emphasis on image and the importance of self-realization.
You can find a.m. on Instagram and TikTok at @absurdwisdom. We are produced and distributed by DAE Presents, the production arm of DAE (@dae.community on Instagram and online at mydae.org).
The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the speakers and do not necessarily reflect the views or positions of any entities they represent. While we make every effort to ensure that the information shared is accurate, we welcome any comments, suggestions, or correction of errors.
You can contact us at daepresents@mydae.org.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
a.m. (01:49):
Well, we don't have a topic, which in and of itself is
a topic.
I actually have a similar kindof theme.
Yeah.
Yeah.
What's really on my mind, and ithas been for a year but it just,
you know, it ebbs and flows, buteach it's sort of like this, you
know.
It ebbs and flows, but the trendline is ever increasing in terms
of my, my, my concern about itand, and sort of, you know, the
(02:10):
topic is sustaining results.
Yeah.
I've talked a lot I think in thevery first episodes, we talked
about kind of how this place isdifferent.
I talk about it a lot ingeneral.
The problem with for profitbusinesses is that they have no
meaningful infrastructureincentive or regulation to do
good.
(02:31):
And so the best intentions,genuine intentions of employees
aren't enough.
And so they're really good atsustainable results.
And completely unreliable formaintaining humane processes or
outcomes.
Through nobody's fault otherthan design, right?
And non profits.
(02:51):
have a high premium on humaneresults.
In fact, it's their wholemission.
And they've got almost norelationship with sustainable
results, which is why they'realways on the edge of survival
and and the regulatorystructures and incentives
actually.
Just as corporations aredisincented from being humane,
(03:12):
non profits are activelydisincented from being
responsible businesses,actually.
They're not allowed to makeextra money that they then can
invest to keep the thingsustained.
And then the whole narrative'saround it, right?
And I can't stand either model.
And, and, you know what we keeptrying to navigate is how do you
maintain a nonprofit ethos witha for profit business rigor.
(03:35):
And I think it's, it's not, Ithink, I know it's, it's, it's
identical to a challenge inartistic work, which is, you
know, how do I maintain a freeflow and actual creative
expression that isn't aboutmanufacturing something while
still hitting my release datefor my album or my book or my,
you know, whatever, right?
Because the reality of that is.
(03:56):
Publishers have a release date.
They publish books in Septemberand in February or whatever that
cycle is.
And your book better be ready oryou're losing that contract.
And so how do you live in thatworld while still maintaining
creative expression?
Right?
How do you meet your filmdeadline?
How do you meet your albumrelease schedule?
Whatever that is.
I think it's a parallel.
And we do a shitty job in thatworld as well of educating
(04:18):
artists on how to be goodbusiness people.
And of course, educatingbusiness people on how to.
Freeform create and it's, youknow, 28 years of my career of,
you know, bashing my headagainst the wall, trying to help
corporate folks be quote unquoteinnovative when everything in
their environment argues againstit.
So anyway, anyway, it's a longwinded that is always on my mind
(04:39):
and it ebbs and flows.
And currently it is a sort of acute thing for me is are we
sustainable?
Do we have enough relationshipwith results that we're going to
be sustainable absent ongoingcycles of fixing?
And so that's the broader topic.
We don't talk about us on apodcast, but that's the broader
territory.
Kyley (04:59):
I mean, that, it's a similar thought that I'm having,
or it's like, how do you like asa, like just thinking about the
education team as a whole, howdo you understand the impact of
rigor longterm and also maintainpresence in the moment in time?
And understanding.
that what you're doing nowreverberates off into infinity
in the rest of thisorganization.
So even as silly as like,grammar and content or, you
(05:23):
know, like following a processand making sure this thing is
done, like that, thatreverberates into who we are,
how we engage with students andall of this stuff.
a.m. (05:33):
The little details matter kind of thing.
Yeah.
Kyley (05:37):
So I think it aligns.
Let me know if it doesn't align.
a.m. (05:39):
Yeah, you know, it's a conversation, so we're not
necessarily trying to solveanything.
I mean, I can see the connectionthere, right?
It is this balance of, you know,how do you keep the thing fluid
and open, because we don't knowwhat the play is going to look
like next year, because we'regoing to have a whole new cast
of students, while stillmaintaining And again, I go back
(06:00):
again, I think art for me is aperfect, a play is perfect
metaphor for this.
Like, you know, King Lear isKing Lear is King Lear.
You're not changing the word.
You're not changing the bard'swords, man, though, that like
they are gold and yet everyproduction has to get approached
with, okay, what's ourproduction.
Yeah.
(06:20):
Right.
And that's kind of what I hearyou pointing to.
It's like, like.
How do we have the words thatare phenomenal for all time, you
know, metaphorically the wordswhile still making sure that the
people.
Who are, you know, here, youknow, the, the, the stage
manager and the lightingdirector and all that, don't
Kyley (06:39):
Someone has to remember to turn the lights on.
a.m. (06:41):
Yeah, yeah, but, but, but also that they don't lose that
every time we're doing aproduction of Lear, it's gotta
be that production of Lear.
Yeah.
And can't be, like, repeatingthe past.
Yeah, I think it's, it's anidentical challenge.
Angel (06:54):
I want to say that It's one thing that humanity lack is
being on one accord andespecially when it comes up to,
you know, what you brought upnonprofit organizations and
Kyley brought up, you know, Thesuccess is being as an education
(07:16):
team and what we do for thestudents, but I feel that that's
something that there's a lack inthat.
And it's always a questionthat's behind my mind is if
everyone wants to do their partand we're all unique in
different ways, but all thatuniqueness that we bring can
(07:39):
work.
Right.
That's part of what I wanted torespond to.
Maybe Kyley's question.
And what I wanted to say isresponding to what you said am
is that as everything around usis like evolving.
I feel like society is so caughtup in trying to stay on top of.
(08:05):
You know, what's evolving, likebeing, you know, caught up with
today's I don't know how todescribe it.
And I feel that that kind ofloses.
Like if I can say going back 10years ago.
So I wish things could be thatway now because people were more
(08:26):
intentional, like I was moreintentional about things and my
creativity was just amazing andnot saying that it ain't, but
like I will, I try to bring mycreativity that I still hold on
to, to today's generation.
And sometimes it can work,sometimes it doesn't.
(08:47):
So, that's like a lingeringquestion for me.
How, how can I bring mycreativity to this generation
today?
And still impact them?
In a major way that will helpthem.
Motivate them to be creative inwhatever they're doing.
a.m. (09:09):
Yeah, I mean, you know, my sort of initial reaction to that
is, is like a, you know, soyou're talking in the context of
dance, right?
And, and so there's a, there's adifference between my creative
expression, my, the thing that Iaccess to, to create.
And that's what I want to impartor use and my moves, and I want
you to learn my moves.
(09:31):
Somewhere in there, and yetlearning some of my moves are
important.
But again, like, like Lear,like, you know, again, like
learning the lines critical.
And so how do I teach you thelines?
How do I teach you the beats ofthe play?
While not suppressing what thisversion of Lear is going to be.
Because of this collection ofpeople, right?
(09:51):
That's, again, I don't thinkthere's a linear answer to that,
but I think that's theterritories, right?
It's like my creativity as adancer versus my moves as a
dancer.
What's the balance between, youknow, which of those I push when
or, you know, which one I sortof loosen up on when.
But at a practical level.
I want to get back to my, mygrounded kind of concern or my
grounded inquiry at a practicallevel.
(10:13):
They need to learn moves threemonths in.
There's a result that's got toget achieved, right?
Otherwise we're all just hangingout like having an aerobics
class.
We're not actually engaged indeveloping our capabilities as
dancers.
We're getting exercise.
We're moving our bodies.
Cool.
But nothing actually happened.
Right?
(10:34):
And so the results got to gethit.
But it can't get hit in amechanical way.
Or we become corporate danceteachers.
And we've squashed the humanspirit.
Kyley (10:42):
I don't know where this is going to go when I start it.
a.m. (10:44):
Cool.
Kyley (10:45):
There was a long time where I thought I was a robot.
Not a literal robot.
But my, I had zero emotions.
I could just grind and grind andgrind and grind and grind and
grind and grind.
There was a time in my life whenI recognized that maybe that
wasn't healthy, and I probablyhad emotions, that they may have
been mistreated for a period oftime, right?
For a long time, grinding becameharder.
And I'm getting to a place wherethat's a better balance, but
(11:09):
it's taken me a long period oftime.
Where I can recognize emotionsand things that are going on,
decide what needs to be paidattention to, let the other
stuff go and get back to doingthe things that are important.
I don't call it a grind as muchanymore, but like, the, the
rigor of continually moving in adirection of a thing that you
are committed to, right?
And I wonder bothorganizationally and like how we
(11:30):
approach students, how is thatcommunicated?
to them because it's very easyto be like, yo, school is hard
and you're tired and we're thepeople who like you enough to
let you sleep in a corner.
You know what I mean?
And we have to get stuff done.
Like we are rigorously here todo things that matter to us.
And I don't, I don't know how toit's hard to balance that
(11:52):
conversation.
a.m. (11:53):
The only solution I've ever found on this, or you know,
solution, the only thing to workon I've ever found on this,
policies don't cut it,incentives don't cut it, they
underscore it or mine it.
It's, it's people doingindividual work.
Yeah, you can do this for otherexactly what you just said,
right?
Like you can do this with othersand you can do this in your work
if you can do it with yourself.
(12:13):
Yeah.
If you can cultivate arelationship with yourself,
whereas like I'm hitting thefucking result that I said I'm
going to hit and I'm going totake care of myself in the
process, I'm going to leave thechannel open in the process,
right?
That balance individually iswhat creates an environment
where that balance can kind oflive.
Yeah.
(12:34):
Again, like a theater company, ahealthy theater company, a
healthy dance troupe, where it'slike, you know, yeah, man,
we're, we're, we got a showSaturday, this, this piece is
going to be set and I'm going topay attention.
Like I'm, I'm cramping up, butI'm still doing it, but I'm
going to pay attention to makesure I'm not tearing something
that I'm not, you know, and ifI'm at that point, I'm going to
say, okay, I got it.
I know Saturday.
(12:55):
I need half an hour to go, youknow, whatever, I don't know
what you do, ice up or heat upor whatever, you know.
And so it's that awareness ofyourself of, I need to take care
of the instrument, but I can'tcoddle the instrument.
Because I got a performanceSaturday and this piece ain't
set.
That's the only thing I've everfound.
But again, I'm, I'm sort of aone trick pony on some of these
things.
Like self awareness for me islike almost everything.
(13:16):
You know, it's one of the two orthree things I always come back
to.
Is what's your relationship withyourself?
And are you willing to do thisinternally?
Kyley (13:24):
But even, even rigor from the people involved to do that
similar kind of focus.
Yep.
And I mean, we, we work withpeople that I'm sure are going
to be interested in that at somepoint.
And this may not be their day.
Like this, like, like it takestime to even get to that
conversation, let alone starthaving to start practicing or
(13:44):
giving them the choice topractice or everyone to language
that.
a.m. (13:47):
Yeah.
And so I think that's whathappens organizationally, Kyley
is, is, is you got to understandagain, going back to the theater
company that the ushers don'tneed to engage this way.
Yeah.
It's phenomenal if they do andyou want to give them as much
opportunity to as possible, butthey don't need to.
Yeah.
They need to make sure they gotenough programs, they need to
know where the seating is, theyneed to know how to move people
(14:09):
from the lobby to the seat, etcetera, right?
And they don't need to operate.
They're just pure results, butthey're constantly exposed to
the other thing.
And if they want to kind ofstart engaging in how do I do
both and how do I, you know,great.
Yeah.
But some roles are just aboutjust pure results.
Similarly, there may be someroles, much fewer usually,
(14:33):
because you try to sustain anorganization, right?
Whether again, it's a theatercompany or a school or whatever.
There may be some roles that arenever about results.
At least not as an emphasis.
Those are again, those, thoseare tougher to justify when you
got a, you know, when you got aa business, a thing that's got
to have some business rigor toit.
But there are cases I thinkwhere it's, you know, yeah,
you're pure exploration mode forthe most part.
(14:56):
Like, if we evolved to a pointwhere, you know like we had Rory
in here, right?
If we could afford to have kepthim on, or, or, you know, we
could have Ben, who, you know, Ido some of these conversations
with, and kind of structurehaving him hanging out in here.
Ben hangs out in here, it's coworking and is a resource to
students.
He's never gonna have results.
Yep.
He is pure possibility.
(15:16):
He's pure, just, you know, oh,here's a situation where you can
open something up for a student,right?
So there are situations whereyou could have folks who have
zero results just keep the otherside going.
In, in the sort of far edge ofit.
So I think that, that's, that'sone of the things you gotta do
when you're collective again,dance company, theater company,
organization, is understand, youknow what, these roles are
(15:39):
purely about results.
And they keep getting invited tothe other thing, but they're
pure about results.
Most of the folks though, in thecore, The stage manager and the,
you know, et cetera, et cetera.
The core, we have to help figureout how they balance both for
themselves internally so thatthey can operate like that
collectively.
And then there might be one ortwo floating out on the other
end of the spectrum that arejust like, yeah, don't worry
(16:01):
about it.
You got no, you got no target tohit.
Something interesting occurs toyou, say it.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I like that third gig.
That third gig is deeplystressful to me.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Exactly.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's like everything else.
It's like, you know, it's whatyour disposition is.
But again, when, when, whenit's, when it's a business,
yeah.
Dance company, theater company,that third gig is so, it's
nearly impossible to justifyother than in the ways I just
(16:24):
said it, volunteers.
Right?
Like Ben's never going tocollect a check from here.
He's going to be a volunteerbecause he believes in the
mission.
So you can justify it there.
But I think a lot of nonprofits, possibly most non
profits don't work on this kindof employee development,
organizational development.
You either get a, you know, amindset of You know, we're,
(16:44):
we're a business now, you know,the Red Cross or the whatever,
like I don't know the Red Cross.
I'm just using as an example ofa large number where it's
basically a business andeveryone's going to be treated
that way and there's not a lotof, you know, the mission's
there, but it's not a creativemission anymore.
They're not actually expandingper se.
Yeah, that's perfect.
Yeah, exactly.
Their service organization,their nonprofit.
(17:06):
But they're serving, but it's abusiness or they go in the other
direction and they're constantlyon the, you know, brink of, of
collapse.
And, and often they just thencollapse and, and very few
nonprofits.
In my experience at least, youknow, kind of do the work of
trying to balance theseemphases.
Corporations are constantlytrying to, you know, do the
(17:27):
other side of it and completelyblind to the fact that it will
never work.
You're never going to get youremployees satisfied, folks.
I say this to my grad studentsand my IIS students.
Employee satisfaction inorganizations is such bullshit.
That's not what the design ofthe thing is, man.
It's like going to a gym, andthey promise you, you're gonna,
(17:48):
like, just be relaxed, and, kindof in like like a sleep state.
You're gonna come in here, andit's gonna be refre Bullshit!
That's not what a gym's for! Youknow?
So, anyway.
Both sides of the equation missit.
Angel (18:00):
One thing I was thinking about as you were talking is
passion for it.
I mean, I know not everybodywill have the same drive.
And like I say sometimes, again,take time to get there.
This is the first time I ever,you know, been part of a non
profit.
So I see where you're comingfrom.
Me too.
I, I, I see where, like, Iunderstand like where you say
(18:22):
like results, like being part ofa for profit they want results
like, I don't care what you do.
This is what you have to do.
And that's it.
But speaking for myself, cause Idon't want to speak for anybody,
but you know, being in that typeof environment compared to this
one it's more pressure.
(18:44):
And it can be very stressfulbecause, I mean, it can be for
both, but if you don't get thejob done, you get fired on the
spot and they probably won'teven think twice about how you
feel or an explanation or yourreason probably might not
matter.
(19:05):
But being part of a non profitis like, I don't know, just
speaking for me in my positionwhat I have and what I bring is
very valuable, you know.
And I can say that my passionhas grown.
And of course, you know.
The consistent of evolving and,and just learning how to
(19:28):
interact with studentsespecially because they're going
through like all these differenttypes of stages of life.
And, you know, you want to like,be careful what topics to touch
on or how to approach them.
To me it's challenging in a goodway because it makes me want to
progress and get better.
(19:50):
So I feel that just that alonewill help me like build my
creativity and to keep it going.
I don't know if that makessense.
a.m. (20:02):
It makes a lot of sense, Angel, and, and this will show
up on somebody's blog.
It's another, we're going to dothat topic one day of just like
the, the, the, the, the kind ofskimming that people do for, you
know it's a long standing thingwith me and Danielle, if you're
listening, Danielle, more thananybody knows this conversation
for profits.
In general, you know, this is ageneralization the demand that
(20:22):
you achieve results at thesacrifice of your humanity.
What the opportunity is in aplace like this is to achieve
results as an expression of yourhumanity.
Because I think the other partof it, never achieving results
is, is very different, but justas oppressive of humanity.
As the corporate thing ofachieve results at the expense
(20:43):
of, I think as human beings, weare sort of inclined to make, to
finish a thing that, right.
But that result is an expressionof your humanity, not a
sacrifice of, you know, and, andthat's the opportunity in a
place like this that again, Ithink nonprofits lose where
results are squishy, you know,and the only way they know to
(21:05):
emphasize results is thecorporate way to emphasize
results.
Which is at the sacrifice of andthere's a I think a legitimate,
you know Work is so like there'sa whole nother stream like it's
not even a single topic work theNate the kind of concept of work
has been so fucked with In theindustrial era, you know, just
(21:27):
so absolutely And so in a, in a,in a traditional organization, a
for profit, it's, yeah, it's,you know, you're going to hit
the result and whatever the costto you, I don't care for the
most part.
Right.
And we play nice and you have,you know, take the extremes out
of it, but it wasn't, you know,it was a minute ago when we
didn't care if like it meantyour physical death.
We actually still don't care ifit means your physical death in,
(21:48):
in, if we, if we outsource itfar enough away where we don't
have to look at it, you know,
Kyley (21:52):
just make sure your physical death gets in our
product.
a.m. (21:55):
Yeah, that's it.
You know, it's, it's like if youwatch Succession, you know, the,
the, the, the line from thatthing, like the, of all the
great, the, the, you know, thesort of entertaining and
creative things I took out ofthat.
The one thing that I think islike, just the no real person
involved that phrase.
I was like, Holy shit, man, youjust captured.
Such a, like you captured one ofthe kind of root pieces of DNA
(22:17):
of our corporate culture.
No real person involved.
Right?
So, so, so, so even at thesacrifice of bodily harm.
We'll tolerate as long as it'sfar enough away that we don't
have to actually acknowledge itas real harm.
But certainly you're, you knowget the result at, at the
expense of your emotional life,of your psychic life, of your
creative life.
Yeah, man, that's, that's whatwe're paying you for.
(22:37):
But I think, I think, you know,the alternative to that is not,
well, let go of results.
I think that also destroys ahuman being.
Right.
And so the idea is, you know,can you create an environment
where where yeah, you know forthe usher quote unquote, you
know, I don't mean to Create ahierarchy of value.
I'm just using it as atransactional example, you know
It may be a good result becausethat that's that's just like
(23:00):
your job, but there's an ongoinginvitation of Can the result be
an expression of your humanityif you want to play that way?
There's a theater troupe whereyou can play that way, you know
but I think, I think not holdingpeople accountable for results
is actually in a certain way asinhumane as holding them
accountable results no matterthe cost.
Kyley (23:19):
Because then their work doesn't matter.
a.m. (23:20):
Exactly.
That is my point.
Kyley (23:23):
What do we care that you're doing here?
You're just showing up and yourtime is invaluable.
Yeah.
a.m. (23:28):
This is what we stripped out of work.
Work was not, work was anexpression.
It was like this is how I feedmyself.
This is how I feed other people.
It matters to my life.
Kyley (23:38):
It's interesting you talk about the consequence of like,
working in a corporation, andlike, they fire you if you don't
get results, right?
Here, it's like, somethingdifferent, and for me, it's
like, I worked in corporations.
And I think that is, is why,like I was an engineer and like,
cool.
So I don't get results.
You don't make money.
I get fired.
Big deal.
(23:59):
Getting fired here is the leastof my worries.
If this thing fails, like, myperspective is like, we miss
impacting a million people?
5 million people?
100 million people?
It's not the, this thing todaydidn't go well, it's the thing
100 years from now that didn'tgo well.
(24:20):
Every high school student thatgoes through our program, every
single person they engage withdifferently because they engage
with somebody differently here,doesn't happen.
That dies.
That's the outcome.
That's the consequence of me notdoing this work.
So being fired is problematic.
(24:40):
Yeah, but not my concern.
a.m. (24:44):
So you, you know I'll, I'll, I'll get, you know,
organizational psychologistwonky because it's one of the,
one of the, one of the manythings out of, out of the
discipline that the people justforgot because it wasn't
convenient, you know, forcorporate life there's a concept
called task significance.
It's a degree to which I see howmy piece of work.
Yeah.
(25:05):
That is almost wholly strippedout of most work.
Right.
And so like, I'm doing thisreport, this financial analysis,
this turning the screws on thisassembly line.
I got no connection to how itmatters in the, in the broader
scheme of the world.
And more importantly, how itmatters to other human beings,
like actually.
I get at best artificialversions of that, you know, and
(25:26):
what you're speaking to is thenth level of task significance,
right?
Like I know that, that this, youknow, today's curricular
engagement could have a rippleeffect.
In fact, we'll have a rippleeffect.
To untold, you know, hundredsand thousands of my ability to
understand because of, of howthis person, you know, this
student gets influenced, it'sgoing to change how they
(25:47):
interact with everybody theyencounter, right?
Like that's, you know, it's acritical thing.
And it's one of the things in aplace like this.
And if you can help peoplereally connect to frees up this
kind of urgency of, of, ofresults, but not in a press of
results way, right?
Yeah.
I don't have a lot of referencepoints on, on, on collective
creative work other thantheater.
(26:08):
Like, I've never been in a bandand not, you know, in a dance
troupe or anything.
And so I keep going back totheater, you know, reference
points on it.
But, but, but if you got, youknow, if you got others, I'd
love them.
Like I can, I can recall some ofthe, the most frustrating
theater experiences being.
Where there are actors in thecast, cause you know, some of
the stuff I do, most of thestuff I do actually is community
theater.
It's like, right.
And so you get the core usuallyare people who are taking the
(26:33):
thing seriously, the actors, youknow, and then you get like, you
know, supporting roles and sideroles or people like, Oh my God,
I'm going to play, you know,some of that sometimes happens,
you know?
And some of the worstexperiences were with folks who
didn't understand that this wasabout the audience.
Not about us.
Didn't understand the potentialimpact.
And then the ripple of thatimpact of this thing we're
(26:53):
doing.
And we're more focused on I'm onstage! This is cool! And then
the thing becomes like a play.
Like just you know, small pplay.
Oh, that was entertaining.
And even when it's good, it'slike, oh yeah, that was
entertaining.
But nothing got moved.
Nothing got shifted.
Nobody walked out of there like,oh, wow.
(27:15):
I got to reconsider something,even in a humorous way,
reconsider something, right?
Yeah.
And so it just takes, it justtakes like one person on stage
in a scene of seven, who's like,you know, in essence, winking.
In essence, like, is like, Oh,I'm going to play.
To just kill the impact.
Angel (27:31):
Would that be considered?
The bad apple?
a.m. (27:34):
It's not even bad, it's the unaware apple.
Unaware apple.
You know what I mean?
It's, it's, it's the apple thathas no clue that yeah, it's
shiny and red, yeah it's sweetbut actually the most important
thing about it is that it'sgoing to provide nutrition to
someone.
And that within itself there arethese tiny little kernels
(27:57):
They're going to give birth toone or two or three giant trees
that themselves will producemore apples.
It's an apple that's whollyunaware that that's what its
presence could be as opposed tolook at how shiny I am.
Yeah, no blemishes, no worms.
So they're not bad.
They're just misplacedattention.
Kyley (28:19):
Confused.
Yeah.
About, like, I see that more asconfused.
I don't know why.
Like, it's un apple.
a.m. (28:26):
One of the things I wrote in my blog in the sub stack was
this sort of, you know,fairytale thing, and I used
rabbits as the main, you know.
And yeah, and I'm referring totheir thing, you know.
There's a line in there whereit's It's sort of about, you
know, will this sort ofindustrialization of the world,
that's in the words, but there'sthe essence, will the
industrialization of the worldactually lead to more happiness?
(28:47):
And it's like, I don't know,you'd have to ask an unrabbit
about that.
A rabbit can't even engage withthe question.
And the rabbits are there, youknow.
Just to round it out, right, anon shiny apple with blemishes
and maybe a couple of wormholesGets hung up on that and loses
the, even as an unshiny apple, Ihave the same nutrition to
(29:11):
provide.
I have the same seeds to dropthat can grow into trees.
And it's okay if I'm not aperfected apple with no
blemishes.
And, you know, and so that's adifferent way to get lost in the
conversation.
Not that, Oh, look at me.
I'm great.
It's like, don't look at me.
I'm not great.
Like, but both of those losethe.
Result opportunity for thatapple that they actually can
(29:33):
provide nutrition and do containseeds that could sprout into
something in some other soil.
Angel (29:38):
That's a great perspective.
Kyley (29:39):
I think that very much highlights what we're trying to
do here.
Help students understand theirapples, if you want to use the
metaphor here.
The rest doesn't matter.
That's hard to communicatesometimes too, where it's like,
I don't actually care about thecoding language you learned.
It's important.
But the most important thing isthat you are doing the thing
that you're meant to do.
How do I help you find that?
a.m. (30:00):
And in the process Don't get hung up on your apple-ness
But get more focused on yournutritional value to the world.
It's one of the things that in,you know, in, in, in, in the
sort of monasteries, it's justso, like, like, right there, and
people misunderstand, you know?
Like, I've talked about the Zenmonasteries, they're like, you
know, four in the morning, gong,and it's like, it's like, oh my
god, it's like a military.
(30:21):
Like, no, actually.
I mean, it is.
But the purpose of it all is tosort of wake you up to what, you
know, your life actually couldbe.
Versus this, you know, chronicobsession with self in the
smallest way.
I think actual military, youknow, could, could, you know,
boot camp has that effect onpeople as well, I think.
(30:42):
Right?
I think it has some othereffects that maybe aren't so
positive because the intentionthere is, A more utilitarian
intention.
Angel (30:50):
You know, talking about self, I feel that, not I feel,
okay, I'm going to stop using Ifeel.
It's what I see, what I've cometo terms, or just what I've
questioned myself.
But self, I think if we let goof self, And become more
selfless will be able to providethat nutrition and those seeds
(31:17):
to others.
And so what I see in society isa lot of people are for
themselves and not being awareor unaware of the possibilities
of how they can.
Give nutrition, to others or howthey can plant seeds.
(31:38):
Others.
And so I see that that's like amajor thing.
And I also had to come to termswith that with myself as well is
I don't want to just show uplike, Hey, look at me.
Ooh, I'm a part of, because whenyou mentioned that, I, that was
me at one point and I had tolearn, like, no, it's not just
about me and what I'm doing andhow I could show up, it's how
(32:02):
I'm going to impact the otherperson of what I do.
Regardless of however I look,you know?
And so When I said, you know,it's a good perspective to see
it, and looking at the studentsnow, I mean, I'm going to use
that, actually starting today,how I can help them see that for
themselves, you know?
a.m. (32:23):
The self we get focused on just, you know, in the era we
kind of grew up in is, is, is a,it's a product, right?
We're sort of habituated tothink of, of self as product.
And and so it's abouttransactions.
It's about utility.
It's about like, you know, allthese things that are really
problematic.
And then, and then, you know, webuilt a society around it that
(32:44):
then just reinforces that.
That everything you encounterreinforces, you know, your
utilitarian product nature.
Yeah.
It's a pretty dull way to thinkabout from my perspective.
Completely left field, you know,just the way my non linear brain
works now.
What popped my head is that thefirst of the Shima Sutras is
Chaitanyamatma which means, sothat's the very first of the,
(33:08):
you know, teachings of Shiva, isthe way to think about it.
What that translates to roughlyis consciousness is self.
That the body is not self, thepersonality is not self, the,
you know, all that, that's notself.
The conscious, the awarenessitself.
But here, you know, the parallelthat might be in reverse
translated into Sanskrit, Ithink image itself is kind of
(33:31):
where we find ourselves in theworld, image itself.
It's not my awareness, it's notthe awareness, not even my, it's
not my awareness, it's awarenessis who I am.
But, but, but, Now, in thissociety, it's how I'm seen.
It's a polar opposite ofawareness.
Right?
It's, you know, sort of imageitself.
For you Enneagram folks outthere, I used to, you know in
(33:53):
the early part of the century, Iused to do a lot of Enneagram
work and talks, and we came outof if you don't know Enneagram,
I'll just give you a quickshort, you know, we spent the
last, you know, century in, inheavy Enneagram 5 8.
Society.
And so I think I'm five or six.
Cerebral, intellectual, idea,and eight is authoritarian,
(34:14):
solid, powerful.
And that's what the last hundredyears has been.
Powerful men and brilliant men,you know.
The big Oscar darling right now,Oppenheimer, right?
Like, that's, that's five.
That's like the era, you know,coming up.
But that the era we're movinginto, and, and so it was toxic
five and eight.
It was this kind ofglorification to the point of
(34:35):
just, you know, just oppression,you know.
And, and we're very clearlymoving out of You know that
eight world that kind ofpowerful men were actually
actively dismantling powerfulmen and they're not happy about
it You know because it turns outthat they're very tiny egos but
the toxicity we're entering isSort of toxic three I mean three
(34:58):
is about how do I look It's DonDraper, kind of a phenomenon.
And we're very clearly in theearly stages, or hopefully,
maybe not early stages.
We could pass through itquickly, but that's the kind of
oppressive narrative in theworld.
It's how do you look?
How do you look?
How do you look?
It's no longer about the poweryou wield or the intellect you
wield.
It's about the image you craft.
Kyley (35:19):
Would you add a 6 in there too?
Yeah, 3 6.
3 6, because it's how do I lookand look at all I'm doing.
Look at all the stuff I'minvolved in.
a.m. (35:26):
Well, it, it Or am I misrepresenting 6?
It's, it's, I mean, it'sconnected, it's, it's my, my
sort of, my, my clique, mytribe.
Yeah.
My affiliation.
You know.
We kind of Dysfunctional.
And the unhealthy 6 is not,never sure what to trust.
Sure.
Yeah.
And so that kind of seeps inthere as well.
Interesting.
Yeah.
Took it a different way, but Iwould agree.
(35:46):
Yeah.
We're just we don't know what totrust, who's, who's my silo.
Yeah.
And so I constantly pingeverything.
Yeah.
And so it's this, you know,this, this, this, this.
Trust a DDI ping here.
Oh, are you it?
Are you it?
Do you have the solution?
Is it, you know is it thisthought leader?
Is it this political party?
Is it this thing?
Like where is it?
Where is it?
Where is it?
And that's the sort ofdysfunction we're in right now.
Both of'em are problematicbecause it attach itself to just
(36:08):
personality.
Yeah.
And so I agree with you that,you know, that's just all we're
doing with the kids.
Is just that awareness piece,that kind of sense of, you can,
you know, well hold yourselfaccountable for results, but if
they're about making yourselflook good, eh, or if they're a
way to kind of go to the gym, away to figure out and then
(36:31):
expand your nutritional value tothe world.
It might be something you'llfind fulfilling there, you know.
Angel (36:37):
So, I'm a single parent of four, and my oldest is 13.
So, it's, it's a challenge.
I'd definitely say that.
But one thing I said to her theother day you know, cause she's
surrounded by, Other teenagersand, you know, all the things
(36:58):
they are involved in and it'sjust unnecessary from a parent's
point of view.
But what I believe is veryimportant is that I continue to
educate her whether she receiveswhat I say or not.
And one thing I said to her theother day, I said, looks are
impressive.
But if our soul, heart, brain ismuch more prosperous and
(37:24):
powerful when they align withone another.
So looks can be great, buteverything else within you is
much more prosperous.
Like it can do much more thanyour looks, you know.
So I've been in that stagespeaking that to her because
(37:44):
It's not really spoken about.
It's not, like, that's not athing anymore.
It's not, you know, like yousaid, like, it's the image, you
know, self noun, like, that'swhat everyone is paying
attention to, especially, like,this young generation, so.
(38:04):
I think that that's veryimportant that we continue to
share with others and educateespecially those who are younger
than us, just to help themidentify themselves in those
areas.
You know, so.
Kyley (38:21):
We're fortunate to work with the students we work with.
Well, we don't have a topic, which in and of itself is
a topic.
I actually have a similar kindof theme.
Yeah.
Yeah.
What's really on my mind, and ithas been for a year but it just,
you know, it ebbs and flows, buteach it's sort of like this, you
know.
It ebbs and flows, but the trendline is ever increasing in terms
of my, my, my concern about itand, and sort of, you know, the
(02:10):
topic is sustaining results.
Yeah.
I've talked a lot I think in thevery first episodes, we talked
about kind of how this place isdifferent.
I talk about it a lot ingeneral.
The problem with for profitbusinesses is that they have no
meaningful infrastructureincentive or regulation to do
good.
(02:31):
And so the best intentions,genuine intentions of employees
aren't enough.
And so they're really good atsustainable results.
And completely unreliable formaintaining humane processes or
outcomes.
Through nobody's fault otherthan design, right?
And non profits.
(02:51):
have a high premium on humaneresults.
In fact, it's their wholemission.
And they've got almost norelationship with sustainable
results, which is why they'realways on the edge of survival
and and the regulatorystructures and incentives
actually.
Just as corporations aredisincented from being humane,
(03:12):
non profits are activelydisincented from being
responsible businesses,actually.
They're not allowed to makeextra money that they then can
invest to keep the thingsustained.
And then the whole narrative'saround it, right?
And I can't stand either model.
And, and, you know what we keeptrying to navigate is how do you
maintain a nonprofit ethos witha for profit business rigor.
(03:35):
And I think it's, it's not, Ithink, I know it's, it's, it's
identical to a challenge inartistic work, which is, you
know, how do I maintain a freeflow and actual creative
expression that isn't aboutmanufacturing something while
still hitting my release datefor my album or my book or my,
you know, whatever, right?
Because the reality of that is.
(03:56):
Publishers have a release date.
They publish books in Septemberand in February or whatever that
cycle is.
And your book better be ready oryou're losing that contract.
And so how do you live in thatworld while still maintaining
creative expression?
Right?
How do you meet your filmdeadline?
How do you meet your albumrelease schedule?
Whatever that is.
I think it's a parallel.
And we do a shitty job in thatworld as well of educating
(04:18):
artists on how to be goodbusiness people.
And of course, educatingbusiness people on how to.
Freeform create and it's, youknow, 28 years of my career of,
you know, bashing my headagainst the wall, trying to help
corporate folks be quote unquoteinnovative when everything in
their environment argues againstit.
So anyway, anyway, it's a longwinded that is always on my mind
(04:39):
and it ebbs and flows.
And currently it is a sort of acute thing for me is are we
sustainable?
Do we have enough relationshipwith results that we're going to
be sustainable absent ongoingcycles of fixing?
And so that's the broader topic.
We don't talk about us on apodcast, but that's the broader
territory.
Kyley (04:59):
I mean, that, it's a similar thought that I'm having,
or it's like, how do you like asa, like just thinking about the
education team as a whole, howdo you understand the impact of
rigor longterm and also maintainpresence in the moment in time?
And understanding.
that what you're doing nowreverberates off into infinity
in the rest of thisorganization.
So even as silly as like,grammar and content or, you
(05:23):
know, like following a processand making sure this thing is
done, like that, thatreverberates into who we are,
how we engage with students andall of this stuff.
a.m. (05:33):
The little details matter kind of thing.
Yeah.
Kyley (05:37):
So I think it aligns.
Let me know if it doesn't align.
a.m. (05:39):
Yeah, you know, it's a conversation, so we're not
necessarily trying to solveanything.
I mean, I can see the connectionthere, right?
It is this balance of, you know,how do you keep the thing fluid
and open, because we don't knowwhat the play is going to look
like next year, because we'regoing to have a whole new cast
of students, while stillmaintaining And again, I go back
(06:00):
again, I think art for me is aperfect, a play is perfect
metaphor for this.
Like, you know, King Lear isKing Lear is King Lear.
You're not changing the word.
You're not changing the bard'swords, man, though, that like
they are gold and yet everyproduction has to get approached
with, okay, what's ourproduction.
Yeah.
(06:20):
Right.
And that's kind of what I hearyou pointing to.
It's like, like.
How do we have the words thatare phenomenal for all time, you
know, metaphorically the wordswhile still making sure that the
people.
Who are, you know, here, youknow, the, the, the stage
manager and the lightingdirector and all that, don't
Kyley (06:39):
Someone has to remember to turn the lights on.
a.m. (06:41):
Yeah, yeah, but, but, but also that they don't lose that
every time we're doing aproduction of Lear, it's gotta
be that production of Lear.
Yeah.
And can't be, like, repeatingthe past.
Yeah, I think it's, it's anidentical challenge.
Angel (06:54):
I want to say that It's one thing that humanity lack is
being on one accord andespecially when it comes up to,
you know, what you brought upnonprofit organizations and
Kyley brought up, you know, Thesuccess is being as an education
(07:16):
team and what we do for thestudents, but I feel that that's
something that there's a lack inthat.
And it's always a questionthat's behind my mind is if
everyone wants to do their partand we're all unique in
different ways, but all thatuniqueness that we bring can
(07:39):
work.
Right.
That's part of what I wanted torespond to.
Maybe Kyley's question.
And what I wanted to say isresponding to what you said am
is that as everything around usis like evolving.
I feel like society is so caughtup in trying to stay on top of.
(08:05):
You know, what's evolving, likebeing, you know, caught up with
today's I don't know how todescribe it.
And I feel that that kind ofloses.
Like if I can say going back 10years ago.
So I wish things could be thatway now because people were more
(08:26):
intentional, like I was moreintentional about things and my
creativity was just amazing andnot saying that it ain't, but
like I will, I try to bring mycreativity that I still hold on
to, to today's generation.
And sometimes it can work,sometimes it doesn't.
(08:47):
So, that's like a lingeringquestion for me.
How, how can I bring mycreativity to this generation
today?
And still impact them?
In a major way that will helpthem.
Motivate them to be creative inwhatever they're doing.
a.m. (09:09):
Yeah, I mean, you know, my sort of initial reaction to that
is, is like a, you know, soyou're talking in the context of
dance, right?
And, and so there's a, there's adifference between my creative
expression, my, the thing that Iaccess to, to create.
And that's what I want to impartor use and my moves, and I want
you to learn my moves.
(09:31):
Somewhere in there, and yetlearning some of my moves are
important.
But again, like, like Lear,like, you know, again, like
learning the lines critical.
And so how do I teach you thelines?
How do I teach you the beats ofthe play?
While not suppressing what thisversion of Lear is going to be.
Because of this collection ofpeople, right?
(09:51):
That's, again, I don't thinkthere's a linear answer to that,
but I think that's theterritories, right?
It's like my creativity as adancer versus my moves as a
dancer.
What's the balance between, youknow, which of those I push when
or, you know, which one I sortof loosen up on when.
But at a practical level.
I want to get back to my, mygrounded kind of concern or my
grounded inquiry at a practicallevel.
(10:13):
They need to learn moves threemonths in.
There's a result that's got toget achieved, right?
Otherwise we're all just hangingout like having an aerobics
class.
We're not actually engaged indeveloping our capabilities as
dancers.
We're getting exercise.
We're moving our bodies.
Cool.
But nothing actually happened.
Right?
(10:34):
And so the results got to gethit.
But it can't get hit in amechanical way.
Or we become corporate danceteachers.
And we've squashed the humanspirit.
Kyley (10:42):
I don't know where this is going to go when I start it.
a.m. (10:44):
Cool.
Kyley (10:45):
There was a long time where I thought I was a robot.
Not a literal robot.
But my, I had zero emotions.
I could just grind and grind andgrind and grind and grind and
grind and grind.
There was a time in my life whenI recognized that maybe that
wasn't healthy, and I probablyhad emotions, that they may have
been mistreated for a period oftime, right?
For a long time, grinding becameharder.
And I'm getting to a place wherethat's a better balance, but
(11:09):
it's taken me a long period oftime.
Where I can recognize emotionsand things that are going on,
decide what needs to be paidattention to, let the other
stuff go and get back to doingthe things that are important.
I don't call it a grind as muchanymore, but like, the, the
rigor of continually moving in adirection of a thing that you
are committed to, right?
And I wonder bothorganizationally and like how we
(11:30):
approach students, how is thatcommunicated?
to them because it's very easyto be like, yo, school is hard
and you're tired and we're thepeople who like you enough to
let you sleep in a corner.
You know what I mean?
And we have to get stuff done.
Like we are rigorously here todo things that matter to us.
And I don't, I don't know how toit's hard to balance that
(11:52):
conversation.
a.m. (11:53):
The only solution I've ever found on this, or you know,
solution, the only thing to workon I've ever found on this,
policies don't cut it,incentives don't cut it, they
underscore it or mine it.
It's, it's people doingindividual work.
Yeah, you can do this for otherexactly what you just said,
right?
Like you can do this with othersand you can do this in your work
if you can do it with yourself.
(12:13):
Yeah.
If you can cultivate arelationship with yourself,
whereas like I'm hitting thefucking result that I said I'm
going to hit and I'm going totake care of myself in the
process, I'm going to leave thechannel open in the process,
right?
That balance individually iswhat creates an environment
where that balance can kind oflive.
Yeah.
(12:34):
Again, like a theater company, ahealthy theater company, a
healthy dance troupe, where it'slike, you know, yeah, man,
we're, we're, we got a showSaturday, this, this piece is
going to be set and I'm going topay attention.
Like I'm, I'm cramping up, butI'm still doing it, but I'm
going to pay attention to makesure I'm not tearing something
that I'm not, you know, and ifI'm at that point, I'm going to
say, okay, I got it.
I know Saturday.
(12:55):
I need half an hour to go, youknow, whatever, I don't know
what you do, ice up or heat upor whatever, you know.
And so it's that awareness ofyourself of, I need to take care
of the instrument, but I can'tcoddle the instrument.
Because I got a performanceSaturday and this piece ain't
set.
That's the only thing I've everfound.
But again, I'm, I'm sort of aone trick pony on some of these
things.
Like self awareness for me islike almost everything.
(13:16):
You know, it's one of the two orthree things I always come back
to.
Is what's your relationship withyourself?
And are you willing to do thisinternally?
Kyley (13:24):
But even, even rigor from the people involved to do that
similar kind of focus.
Yep.
And I mean, we, we work withpeople that I'm sure are going
to be interested in that at somepoint.
And this may not be their day.
Like this, like, like it takestime to even get to that
conversation, let alone starthaving to start practicing or
(13:44):
giving them the choice topractice or everyone to language
that.
a.m. (13:47):
Yeah.
And so I think that's whathappens organizationally, Kyley
is, is, is you got to understandagain, going back to the theater
company that the ushers don'tneed to engage this way.
Yeah.
It's phenomenal if they do andyou want to give them as much
opportunity to as possible, butthey don't need to.
Yeah.
They need to make sure they gotenough programs, they need to
know where the seating is, theyneed to know how to move people
(14:09):
from the lobby to the seat, etcetera, right?
And they don't need to operate.
They're just pure results, butthey're constantly exposed to
the other thing.
And if they want to kind ofstart engaging in how do I do
both and how do I, you know,great.
Yeah.
But some roles are just aboutjust pure results.
Similarly, there may be someroles, much fewer usually,
(14:33):
because you try to sustain anorganization, right?
Whether again, it's a theatercompany or a school or whatever.
There may be some roles that arenever about results.
At least not as an emphasis.
Those are again, those, thoseare tougher to justify when you
got a, you know, when you got aa business, a thing that's got
to have some business rigor toit.
But there are cases I thinkwhere it's, you know, yeah,
you're pure exploration mode forthe most part.
(14:56):
Like, if we evolved to a pointwhere, you know like we had Rory
in here, right?
If we could afford to have kepthim on, or, or, you know, we
could have Ben, who, you know, Ido some of these conversations
with, and kind of structurehaving him hanging out in here.
Ben hangs out in here, it's coworking and is a resource to
students.
He's never gonna have results.
Yep.
He is pure possibility.
(15:16):
He's pure, just, you know, oh,here's a situation where you can
open something up for a student,right?
So there are situations whereyou could have folks who have
zero results just keep the otherside going.
In, in the sort of far edge ofit.
So I think that, that's, that'sone of the things you gotta do
when you're collective again,dance company, theater company,
organization, is understand, youknow what, these roles are
(15:39):
purely about results.
And they keep getting invited tothe other thing, but they're
pure about results.
Most of the folks though, in thecore, The stage manager and the,
you know, et cetera, et cetera.
The core, we have to help figureout how they balance both for
themselves internally so thatthey can operate like that
collectively.
And then there might be one ortwo floating out on the other
end of the spectrum that arejust like, yeah, don't worry
(16:01):
about it.
You got no, you got no target tohit.
Something interesting occurs toyou, say it.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I like that third gig.
That third gig is deeplystressful to me.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Exactly.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's like everything else.
It's like, you know, it's whatyour disposition is.
But again, when, when, whenit's, when it's a business,
yeah.
Dance company, theater company,that third gig is so, it's
nearly impossible to justifyother than in the ways I just
(16:24):
said it, volunteers.
Right?
Like Ben's never going tocollect a check from here.
He's going to be a volunteerbecause he believes in the
mission.
So you can justify it there.
But I think a lot of nonprofits, possibly most non
profits don't work on this kindof employee development,
organizational development.
You either get a, you know, amindset of You know, we're,
(16:44):
we're a business now, you know,the Red Cross or the whatever,
like I don't know the Red Cross.
I'm just using as an example ofa large number where it's
basically a business andeveryone's going to be treated
that way and there's not a lotof, you know, the mission's
there, but it's not a creativemission anymore.
They're not actually expandingper se.
Yeah, that's perfect.
Yeah, exactly.
Their service organization,their nonprofit.
(17:06):
But they're serving, but it's abusiness or they go in the other
direction and they're constantlyon the, you know, brink of, of
collapse.
And, and often they just thencollapse and, and very few
nonprofits.
In my experience at least, youknow, kind of do the work of
trying to balance theseemphases.
Corporations are constantlytrying to, you know, do the
(17:27):
other side of it and completelyblind to the fact that it will
never work.
You're never going to get youremployees satisfied, folks.
I say this to my grad studentsand my IIS students.
Employee satisfaction inorganizations is such bullshit.
That's not what the design ofthe thing is, man.
It's like going to a gym, andthey promise you, you're gonna,
(17:48):
like, just be relaxed, and, kindof in like like a sleep state.
You're gonna come in here, andit's gonna be refre Bullshit!
That's not what a gym's for! Youknow?
So, anyway.
Both sides of the equation missit.
Angel (18:00):
One thing I was thinking about as you were talking is
passion for it.
I mean, I know not everybodywill have the same drive.
And like I say sometimes, again,take time to get there.
This is the first time I ever,you know, been part of a non
profit.
So I see where you're comingfrom.
Me too.
I, I, I see where, like, Iunderstand like where you say
(18:22):
like results, like being part ofa for profit they want results
like, I don't care what you do.
This is what you have to do.
And that's it.
But speaking for myself, cause Idon't want to speak for anybody,
but you know, being in that typeof environment compared to this
one it's more pressure.
(18:44):
And it can be very stressfulbecause, I mean, it can be for
both, but if you don't get thejob done, you get fired on the
spot and they probably won'teven think twice about how you
feel or an explanation or yourreason probably might not
matter.
(19:05):
But being part of a non profitis like, I don't know, just
speaking for me in my positionwhat I have and what I bring is
very valuable, you know.
And I can say that my passionhas grown.
And of course, you know.
The consistent of evolving and,and just learning how to
(19:28):
interact with studentsespecially because they're going
through like all these differenttypes of stages of life.
And, you know, you want to like,be careful what topics to touch
on or how to approach them.
To me it's challenging in a goodway because it makes me want to
progress and get better.
(19:50):
So I feel that just that alonewill help me like build my
creativity and to keep it going.
I don't know if that makessense.
a.m. (20:02):
It makes a lot of sense, Angel, and, and this will show
up on somebody's blog.
It's another, we're going to dothat topic one day of just like
the, the, the, the, the kind ofskimming that people do for, you
know it's a long standing thingwith me and Danielle, if you're
listening, Danielle, more thananybody knows this conversation
for profits.
In general, you know, this is ageneralization the demand that
(20:22):
you achieve results at thesacrifice of your humanity.
What the opportunity is in aplace like this is to achieve
results as an expression of yourhumanity.
Because I think the other partof it, never achieving results
is, is very different, but justas oppressive of humanity.
As the corporate thing ofachieve results at the expense
(20:43):
of, I think as human beings, weare sort of inclined to make, to
finish a thing that, right.
But that result is an expressionof your humanity, not a
sacrifice of, you know, and, andthat's the opportunity in a
place like this that again, Ithink nonprofits lose where
results are squishy, you know,and the only way they know to
(21:05):
emphasize results is thecorporate way to emphasize
results.
Which is at the sacrifice of andthere's a I think a legitimate,
you know Work is so like there'sa whole nother stream like it's
not even a single topic work theNate the kind of concept of work
has been so fucked with In theindustrial era, you know, just
(21:27):
so absolutely And so in a, in a,in a traditional organization, a
for profit, it's, yeah, it's,you know, you're going to hit
the result and whatever the costto you, I don't care for the
most part.
Right.
And we play nice and you have,you know, take the extremes out
of it, but it wasn't, you know,it was a minute ago when we
didn't care if like it meantyour physical death.
We actually still don't care ifit means your physical death in,
(21:48):
in, if we, if we outsource itfar enough away where we don't
have to look at it, you know,
Kyley (21:52):
just make sure your physical death gets in our
product.
a.m. (21:55):
Yeah, that's it.
You know, it's, it's like if youwatch Succession, you know, the,
the, the, the line from thatthing, like the, of all the
great, the, the, you know, thesort of entertaining and
creative things I took out ofthat.
The one thing that I think islike, just the no real person
involved that phrase.
I was like, Holy shit, man, youjust captured.
Such a, like you captured one ofthe kind of root pieces of DNA
(22:17):
of our corporate culture.
No real person involved.
Right?
So, so, so, so even at thesacrifice of bodily harm.
We'll tolerate as long as it'sfar enough away that we don't
have to actually acknowledge itas real harm.
But certainly you're, you knowget the result at, at the
expense of your emotional life,of your psychic life, of your
creative life.
Yeah, man, that's, that's whatwe're paying you for.
(22:37):
But I think, I think, you know,the alternative to that is not,
well, let go of results.
I think that also destroys ahuman being.
Right.
And so the idea is, you know,can you create an environment
where where yeah, you know forthe usher quote unquote, you
know, I don't mean to Create ahierarchy of value.
I'm just using it as atransactional example, you know
It may be a good result becausethat that's that's just like
(23:00):
your job, but there's an ongoinginvitation of Can the result be
an expression of your humanityif you want to play that way?
There's a theater troupe whereyou can play that way, you know
but I think, I think not holdingpeople accountable for results
is actually in a certain way asinhumane as holding them
accountable results no matterthe cost.
Kyley (23:19):
Because then their work doesn't matter.
a.m. (23:20):
Exactly.
That is my point.
Kyley (23:23):
What do we care that you're doing here?
You're just showing up and yourtime is invaluable.
Yeah.
a.m. (23:28):
This is what we stripped out of work.
Work was not, work was anexpression.
It was like this is how I feedmyself.
This is how I feed other people.
It matters to my life.
Kyley (23:38):
It's interesting you talk about the consequence of like,
working in a corporation, andlike, they fire you if you don't
get results, right?
Here, it's like, somethingdifferent, and for me, it's
like, I worked in corporations.
And I think that is, is why,like I was an engineer and like,
cool.
So I don't get results.
You don't make money.
I get fired.
Big deal.
(23:59):
Getting fired here is the leastof my worries.
If this thing fails, like, myperspective is like, we miss
impacting a million people?
5 million people?
100 million people?
It's not the, this thing todaydidn't go well, it's the thing
100 years from now that didn'tgo well.
(24:20):
Every high school student thatgoes through our program, every
single person they engage withdifferently because they engage
with somebody differently here,doesn't happen.
That dies.
That's the outcome.
That's the consequence of me notdoing this work.
So being fired is problematic.
(24:40):
Yeah, but not my concern.
a.m. (24:44):
So you, you know I'll, I'll, I'll get, you know,
organizational psychologistwonky because it's one of the,
one of the, one of the manythings out of, out of the
discipline that the people justforgot because it wasn't
convenient, you know, forcorporate life there's a concept
called task significance.
It's a degree to which I see howmy piece of work.
Yeah.
(25:05):
That is almost wholly strippedout of most work.
Right.
And so like, I'm doing thisreport, this financial analysis,
this turning the screws on thisassembly line.
I got no connection to how itmatters in the, in the broader
scheme of the world.
And more importantly, how itmatters to other human beings,
like actually.
I get at best artificialversions of that, you know, and
(25:26):
what you're speaking to is thenth level of task significance,
right?
Like I know that, that this, youknow, today's curricular
engagement could have a rippleeffect.
In fact, we'll have a rippleeffect.
To untold, you know, hundredsand thousands of my ability to
understand because of, of howthis person, you know, this
student gets influenced, it'sgoing to change how they
(25:47):
interact with everybody theyencounter, right?
Like that's, you know, it's acritical thing.
And it's one of the things in aplace like this.
And if you can help peoplereally connect to frees up this
kind of urgency of, of, ofresults, but not in a press of
results way, right?
Yeah.
I don't have a lot of referencepoints on, on, on collective
creative work other thantheater.
(26:08):
Like, I've never been in a bandand not, you know, in a dance
troupe or anything.
And so I keep going back totheater, you know, reference
points on it.
But, but, but if you got, youknow, if you got others, I'd
love them.
Like I can, I can recall some ofthe, the most frustrating
theater experiences being.
Where there are actors in thecast, cause you know, some of
the stuff I do, most of thestuff I do actually is community
theater.
It's like, right.
And so you get the core usuallyare people who are taking the
(26:33):
thing seriously, the actors, youknow, and then you get like, you
know, supporting roles and sideroles or people like, Oh my God,
I'm going to play, you know,some of that sometimes happens,
you know?
And some of the worstexperiences were with folks who
didn't understand that this wasabout the audience.
Not about us.
Didn't understand the potentialimpact.
And then the ripple of thatimpact of this thing we're
(26:53):
doing.
And we're more focused on I'm onstage! This is cool! And then
the thing becomes like a play.
Like just you know, small pplay.
Oh, that was entertaining.
And even when it's good, it'slike, oh yeah, that was
entertaining.
But nothing got moved.
Nothing got shifted.
Nobody walked out of there like,oh, wow.
(27:15):
I got to reconsider something,even in a humorous way,
reconsider something, right?
Yeah.
And so it just takes, it justtakes like one person on stage
in a scene of seven, who's like,you know, in essence, winking.
In essence, like, is like, Oh,I'm going to play.
To just kill the impact.
Angel (27:31):
Would that be considered?
The bad apple?
a.m. (27:34):
It's not even bad, it's the unaware apple.
Unaware apple.
You know what I mean?
It's, it's, it's the apple thathas no clue that yeah, it's
shiny and red, yeah it's sweetbut actually the most important
thing about it is that it'sgoing to provide nutrition to
someone.
And that within itself there arethese tiny little kernels
(27:57):
They're going to give birth toone or two or three giant trees
that themselves will producemore apples.
It's an apple that's whollyunaware that that's what its
presence could be as opposed tolook at how shiny I am.
Yeah, no blemishes, no worms.
So they're not bad.
They're just misplacedattention.
Kyley (28:19):
Confused.
Yeah.
About, like, I see that more asconfused.
I don't know why.
Like, it's un apple.
a.m. (28:26):
One of the things I wrote in my blog in the sub stack was
this sort of, you know,fairytale thing, and I used
rabbits as the main, you know.
And yeah, and I'm referring totheir thing, you know.
There's a line in there whereit's It's sort of about, you
know, will this sort ofindustrialization of the world,
that's in the words, but there'sthe essence, will the
industrialization of the worldactually lead to more happiness?
(28:47):
And it's like, I don't know,you'd have to ask an unrabbit
about that.
A rabbit can't even engage withthe question.
And the rabbits are there, youknow.
Just to round it out, right, anon shiny apple with blemishes
and maybe a couple of wormholesGets hung up on that and loses
the, even as an unshiny apple, Ihave the same nutrition to
(29:11):
provide.
I have the same seeds to dropthat can grow into trees.
And it's okay if I'm not aperfected apple with no
blemishes.
And, you know, and so that's adifferent way to get lost in the
conversation.
Not that, Oh, look at me.
I'm great.
It's like, don't look at me.
I'm not great.
Like, but both of those losethe.
Result opportunity for thatapple that they actually can
(29:33):
provide nutrition and do containseeds that could sprout into
something in some other soil.
Angel (29:38):
That's a great perspective.
Kyley (29:39):
I think that very much highlights what we're trying to
do here.
Help students understand theirapples, if you want to use the
metaphor here.
The rest doesn't matter.
That's hard to communicatesometimes too, where it's like,
I don't actually care about thecoding language you learned.
It's important.
But the most important thing isthat you are doing the thing
that you're meant to do.
How do I help you find that?
a.m. (30:00):
And in the process Don't get hung up on your apple-ness
But get more focused on yournutritional value to the world.
It's one of the things that in,you know, in, in, in, in the
sort of monasteries, it's justso, like, like, right there, and
people misunderstand, you know?
Like, I've talked about the Zenmonasteries, they're like, you
know, four in the morning, gong,and it's like, it's like, oh my
god, it's like a military.
(30:21):
Like, no, actually.
I mean, it is.
But the purpose of it all is tosort of wake you up to what, you
know, your life actually couldbe.
Versus this, you know, chronicobsession with self in the
smallest way.
I think actual military, youknow, could, could, you know,
boot camp has that effect onpeople as well, I think.
(30:42):
Right?
I think it has some othereffects that maybe aren't so
positive because the intentionthere is, A more utilitarian
intention.
Angel (30:50):
You know, talking about self, I feel that, not I feel,
okay, I'm going to stop using Ifeel.
It's what I see, what I've cometo terms, or just what I've
questioned myself.
But self, I think if we let goof self, And become more
selfless will be able to providethat nutrition and those seeds
(31:17):
to others.
And so what I see in society isa lot of people are for
themselves and not being awareor unaware of the possibilities
of how they can.
Give nutrition, to others or howthey can plant seeds.
(31:38):
Others.
And so I see that that's like amajor thing.
And I also had to come to termswith that with myself as well is
I don't want to just show uplike, Hey, look at me.
Ooh, I'm a part of, because whenyou mentioned that, I, that was
me at one point and I had tolearn, like, no, it's not just
about me and what I'm doing andhow I could show up, it's how
(32:02):
I'm going to impact the otherperson of what I do.
Regardless of however I look,you know?
And so When I said, you know,it's a good perspective to see
it, and looking at the studentsnow, I mean, I'm going to use
that, actually starting today,how I can help them see that for
themselves, you know?
a.m. (32:23):
The self we get focused on just, you know, in the era we
kind of grew up in is, is, is a,it's a product, right?
We're sort of habituated tothink of, of self as product.
And and so it's abouttransactions.
It's about utility.
It's about like, you know, allthese things that are really
problematic.
And then, and then, you know, webuilt a society around it that
(32:44):
then just reinforces that.
That everything you encounterreinforces, you know, your
utilitarian product nature.
Yeah.
It's a pretty dull way to thinkabout from my perspective.
Completely left field, you know,just the way my non linear brain
works now.
What popped my head is that thefirst of the Shima Sutras is
Chaitanyamatma which means, sothat's the very first of the,
(33:08):
you know, teachings of Shiva, isthe way to think about it.
What that translates to roughlyis consciousness is self.
That the body is not self, thepersonality is not self, the,
you know, all that, that's notself.
The conscious, the awarenessitself.
But here, you know, the parallelthat might be in reverse
translated into Sanskrit, Ithink image itself is kind of
(33:31):
where we find ourselves in theworld, image itself.
It's not my awareness, it's notthe awareness, not even my, it's
not my awareness, it's awarenessis who I am.
But, but, but, Now, in thissociety, it's how I'm seen.
It's a polar opposite ofawareness.
Right?
It's, you know, sort of imageitself.
For you Enneagram folks outthere, I used to, you know in
(33:53):
the early part of the century, Iused to do a lot of Enneagram
work and talks, and we came outof if you don't know Enneagram,
I'll just give you a quickshort, you know, we spent the
last, you know, century in, inheavy Enneagram 5 8.
Society.
And so I think I'm five or six.
Cerebral, intellectual, idea,and eight is authoritarian,
(34:14):
solid, powerful.
And that's what the last hundredyears has been.
Powerful men and brilliant men,you know.
The big Oscar darling right now,Oppenheimer, right?
Like, that's, that's five.
That's like the era, you know,coming up.
But that the era we're movinginto, and, and so it was toxic
five and eight.
It was this kind ofglorification to the point of
(34:35):
just, you know, just oppression,you know.
And, and we're very clearlymoving out of You know that
eight world that kind ofpowerful men were actually
actively dismantling powerfulmen and they're not happy about
it You know because it turns outthat they're very tiny egos but
the toxicity we're entering isSort of toxic three I mean three
(34:58):
is about how do I look It's DonDraper, kind of a phenomenon.
And we're very clearly in theearly stages, or hopefully,
maybe not early stages.
We could pass through itquickly, but that's the kind of
oppressive narrative in theworld.
It's how do you look?
How do you look?
How do you look?
It's no longer about the poweryou wield or the intellect you
wield.
It's about the image you craft.
Kyley (35:19):
Would you add a 6 in there too?
Yeah, 3 6.
3 6, because it's how do I lookand look at all I'm doing.
Look at all the stuff I'minvolved in.
a.m. (35:26):
Well, it, it Or am I misrepresenting 6?
It's, it's, I mean, it'sconnected, it's, it's my, my
sort of, my, my clique, mytribe.
Yeah.
My affiliation.
You know.
We kind of Dysfunctional.
And the unhealthy 6 is not,never sure what to trust.
Sure.
Yeah.
And so that kind of seeps inthere as well.
Interesting.
Yeah.
Took it a different way, but Iwould agree.
(35:46):
Yeah.
We're just we don't know what totrust, who's, who's my silo.
Yeah.
And so I constantly pingeverything.
Yeah.
And so it's this, you know,this, this, this, this.
Trust a DDI ping here.
Oh, are you it?
Are you it?
Do you have the solution?
Is it, you know is it thisthought leader?
Is it this political party?
Is it this thing?
Like where is it?
Where is it?
Where is it?
And that's the sort ofdysfunction we're in right now.
Both of'em are problematicbecause it attach itself to just
(36:08):
personality.
Yeah.
And so I agree with you that,you know, that's just all we're
doing with the kids.
Is just that awareness piece,that kind of sense of, you can,
you know, well hold yourselfaccountable for results, but if
they're about making yourselflook good, eh, or if they're a
way to kind of go to the gym, away to figure out and then
(36:31):
expand your nutritional value tothe world.
It might be something you'llfind fulfilling there, you know.
Angel (36:37):
So, I'm a single parent of four, and my oldest is 13.
So, it's, it's a challenge.
I'd definitely say that.
But one thing I said to her theother day you know, cause she's
surrounded by, Other teenagersand, you know, all the things
(36:58):
they are involved in and it'sjust unnecessary from a parent's
point of view.
But what I believe is veryimportant is that I continue to
educate her whether she receiveswhat I say or not.
And one thing I said to her theother day, I said, looks are
impressive.
But if our soul, heart, brain ismuch more prosperous and
(37:24):
powerful when they align withone another.
So looks can be great, buteverything else within you is
much more prosperous.
Like it can do much more thanyour looks, you know.
So I've been in that stagespeaking that to her because
(37:44):
It's not really spoken about.
It's not, like, that's not athing anymore.
It's not, you know, like yousaid, like, it's the image, you
know, self noun, like, that'swhat everyone is paying
attention to, especially, like,this young generation, so.
(38:04):
I think that that's veryimportant that we continue to
share with others and educateespecially those who are younger
than us, just to help themidentify themselves in those
areas.
You know, so.
Kyley (38:21):
We're fortunate to work with the students we work with.
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