May 12, 2025 • 46 mins
Meghan Whittaker, former chief of staff for the Office of Special Education and Rehabilitative Services at the U.S. Department of Education joins Stephanie and Zac to explain IDEA. From their they look at what could be the national impact on 7.5 million students receiving special education services if Trump's skinny budget becomes a reality. Spoiler: It's not great.
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Episode Transcript
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Stephanie Melville (00:00):
Hi, I'm Stephanie Melville.
Zac Chase (00:15):
And I'm Zac Chase.
And welcome to AcademicDistinctions, a podcast to make
sense of American education.
Today we're going to be talkingabout the skinny, the skinny
budget, which I didn't know whatit was because I don't really
pay attention to these thingsuntil I started going and
researching it.
The Trump administration hassent or released its skinny
(00:37):
budget, which is a light here,our priorities budget for folks
to see what their plans are.
Of particular note is somepotential changes.
to IDEA or the Individuals withDisabilities Education Act,
which puts me, I think, I knowwhat AI is and I know what IDEA
(00:58):
stands for.
So that puts me two to zeroagainst the current Secretary of
Education to help me make senseof this.
Megan Whitaker, a good friend,also the former chief of staff
for the Office of SpecialEducation and Rehabilitative
Services at the U.S.
Department of Education.
I bet you can guess when shestopped being that.
(01:18):
And the policy director for theformer policy director for the
National Center on LearningDisabilities and just a good
person.
Megan, thanks for joining.
Meghan Whittaker (01:28):
Thanks so much for having me.
Zac Chase (01:30):
So let's set the stage.
Most people, I think, unlessthey've had a direct interaction
with it, do not know what IDEAis.
So in the most basic of terms,pretend that you just got
confirmed by Congress to be theSecretary of Education, but you
(01:51):
have no background in education,and you were trying to get up
to speed.
How would you explain IDEA?
Meghan Whittaker (02:00):
Well, in the most basic terms, IDEA, the
Individuals with DisabilitiesEducation Act, is our nation's
special education law.
It is a guarantee from thefederal government that every
state will make sure thateligible children with
disabilities will have access towhat we call a free and
appropriate public education.
So at no cost to parents,individualized based on the
(02:22):
needs of each student, and thefederal law, it places
responsibilities on states anddistricts to comply.
That's kind of in a nutshellwhat IDEA is.
Zac Chase (02:32):
And so like appropriate, not like we're not
going to show like tell dirtyjokes, but like appropriate to
each
Meghan Whittaker (02:39):
individual student.
Exactly.
So, you know, it meets thisobligation of providing a free
appropriate public educationthrough special education.
The law calls it speciallydesigned instruction and related
services.
So that could be adapting thecontent or the delivery of
content in the classroom for achild based on their needs.
Maybe it's one-to-oneinstruction from a special
(03:00):
educator, a group session with aliteracy specialist if you have
dyslexia, and then relatedservices.
So speech therapy, maybe weeklysessions with an occupational
therapist if you have delays ormobility issues.
So everything about IDEA isabout individualization for the
child so that they can accesseducation.
And
Zac Chase (03:19):
the piece that most people have probably heard of
related to IDEA is an IEP orlike a legally binding program
to meet the specific needs tomake sure that that is in fact
an appropriate education forthose individual children,
right?
Meghan Whittaker (03:33):
Absolutely.
And that IEP is revisited everyyear.
It's designed in partnershipwith the parents or the
caregiver of that child.
And it includes goals,measurable goals about what we
want to see that child able toaccomplish.
And it also includes all of thespecific supports,
accommodations or services thatthat child needs, including
things like technology,assistive technology or other
(03:55):
devices to make educationaccessible.
So that IEP is kind of theguiding document that helps to
design the education.
Zac Chase (04:03):
One of the things I've heard people say about IEPs
in the past is like, oh, man,every kid should have one of
those.
And I don't disagree with that.
But it is important to knowthat IDEA makes sure that the
kids for whom it is necessaryget the services that they need.
It would be great if we had anindividualized education program
(04:24):
for every kid.
And many schools are working todo that.
But this legislation says forthe kids who could otherwise
fall through the cracks– This isthat backstop.
Meghan Whittaker (04:34):
Exactly.
The goal is to give access togeneral curriculum to every
child.
And some children will needmore support to access that
general curriculum.
So the IEP is what's intendedto do that.
And the goal is to help everychild meet the same
expectations, meet the samestandards.
And really importantly, specialeducation is not a place.
It is instruction.
(04:55):
It is services.
And it's how we support kids,ideally, in school.
an environment with theirnon-disabled peers.
Zac Chase (05:03):
How many kids are we talking about?
Five or six across the country?
Meghan Whittaker (05:06):
We are talking about over 7 million.
So 7.5 million children.
It seems to kind of tickupwards every year.
And that's about 15% of allstudents in our public schools.
Really, it comes down tochildren with disabilities are
in every single school, verylikely in every classroom across
the country.
And there's a wide variety ofdisabilities that are included
(05:30):
under IDEA and a wide variety ofthings that might make a child
eligible for these services.
There's 13 categories in IDEA,everything from speech and
language disorders, learningdisabilities, autism, behavioral
disabilities.
And so no two children are thesame and they are your
neighbors.
They're at every singleclassroom.
(05:51):
And so it's really importantthat we think about how to
design learning so everyone can.
Stephanie Melville (05:55):
I have a question.
You mentioned, Megan, that thatnumber that 7.5 million ticks
upwards a little bit year overyear.
And that is a thing that hasbeen in the news as of late.
Can you talk maybe a little bitabout why that number might
tick upwards year over year?
Meghan Whittaker (06:15):
Absolutely.
We've seen the population ofstudents with disabilities shift
over the course of decades.
It has gone up slowly.
So I wouldn't say that thereare major upticks, but we are
getting better at identifyingkids who need supports.
And so, you know, theterminology that we have used to
describe different kinds ofdisabilities has changed as
(06:35):
we've begun to understand moreabout those.
And you know, IDEA sets thesepretty broad parameters for what
these 13 categories are.
And then states actually definehow you go about identifying
those kids.
And so as we learn more aboutspeech disorders, as we learn
more about autism or behavioralneeds of students, we're better
able to articulate what thoseare and then put in place the
(06:58):
right kinds of evaluationprocesses to capture kids who
have these needs.
And so I think by, you know,the, the, as the population of
public school students is alsogrowing over those years, so is
the population of kids withdisabilities, and we're better
at identifying them and meetingtheir needs.
So I think that that's kind ofa natural progression, is that
(07:19):
these numbers will go up as weget better at identifying
Zac Chase (07:22):
them.
So it's not because people aredrinking pasteurized milk?
Meghan Whittaker (07:26):
No, I mean, and there are important things
to think about, though, when youthink about Flint, Michigan,
right, where we have majorcrises and environmental things
that will impact students andtheir development.
So I don't want to discount thefact that there are really
significant environmental thingsthat we should be on the
lookout for and be mitigatingand preventing.
But that's not to say that anyof these are curable or
(07:50):
preventable.
It's just it's a complex kindof intersection of things.
the brain and behavior andenvironment.
Zac Chase (08:01):
So Stephanie and I were classroom teachers.
We, as part of our preparation,had an overview.
There were requirements for usto understand special education.
We also probably care about itmore as parents who are thinking
these things through.
I know you're a parent as well,and it's your life's work.
But if I'm not a parent orcaregiver...
(08:22):
And I don't have it or I don'thave a child who qualifies for
special education services.
Why should I care about IDEA?
And we are going to talk aboutthe proposed budget in a second.
So I think it's important tosay why is this thing important
to everybody in the first placebefore we understand what is
being proposed to happen to it?
Meghan Whittaker (08:42):
And I think it comes back to history and
looking at where we were beforeIDA was passed.
So IDA was passed in 1975.
It was called the Education forAll Handicapped Children Act
back then.
And before that passed,children with disabilities were
not guaranteed an education inthis country.
There are actually states thathad laws that prohibited certain
(09:03):
children with disabilities fromattending public schools.
So if you were blind or deaf oryou had an intellectual
disability, you might actuallybe institutionalized instead.
And so we have lots of evidenceabout the pretty horrific
conditions that a lot acceptingall children with disabilities
(09:44):
in public schools and this kindof moral imperative that hey, we
really should be ensuringaccess for all children.
So IDEA was reallygroundbreaking, and I think it's
an essential law for anyone whobelieves that children can
learn and that they should haveaccess to the resources that
they need to do so.
We have seen since the passageof IDEA the incredible benefits
(10:04):
of inclusion.
Inclusion is really theintentional design of education
systems that provide everystudent access and opportunities
and a sense of belonging.
We see that students withdisabilities achieve at higher
rates when they are includedalongside their non-disabled
peers, we see that they canreally meet high expectations
(10:25):
when we set them.
And we also see that studentswithout disabilities benefit as
well.
They also experience academicimprovements and more social
benefits, right?
Learning alongside people whoaren't like them.
And so I think that it'simportant if we care about the
future of our country, thedevelopment of all of our
students, and the sense ofinclusion and belonging in
(10:45):
schools, including students withdisabilities, is incredibly
important.
And that is why IDEA exists andwhy we need to continue to
protect it.
Zac Chase (10:52):
I want to stop because you said something
really– you said a number ofreally important things there.
So I'm going to pause and goback.
So one of them is around beforewe said these children need to
be in public schools, right?
And there is a deep body ofdocumentaries that you can just–
(11:14):
get really angry while youwatch about how we used to treat
children with disabilities.
It is part of our country'slong history of othering and
treating difference as less thanhuman.
That progress and what we haveseen oftentimes is that the law
and statute is sometimes thepiece that needs to happen to
(11:36):
help shift culture and practice.
The other piece there, and Ithink that this is really worth
repeating, is Inclusion has beenshown to help all students.
Now, we know that research isall over the place.
Context matters.
Delivery matters, right?
So like the best versions ofinclusion.
Right.
Not just putting a student witha disability in a space.
(11:59):
Right.
But like truly thinking aboutthe design.
And there's this piece from theUniversity of New Hampshire
says research studies confirmthat inclusive classroom
environments have numerouswidespread benefits for all
students.
They promote individuality andgreater social connections while
also providing new learningopportunities.
Studies show that inclusiveclassrooms improve academic
(12:19):
performance and socialdevelopment across the board.
And researchers point to bettersocial competencies and
communication skills, fewerschool absences and incidents of
disruptive behavior andincreased empathy and compassion
toward peers.
I love the reason I pull thatone is it doesn't say for
students with disabilities orstudents without identified
(12:40):
disabilities.
It says this is just better forkids.
And there are ways that that isdone that are really bad where
those are not the outcomes.
I think we need to Acknowledgethat, but in the best practices,
I think that that is important.
I think it's also reallyinteresting as we were prepping
for the episode in 2022 to 2023,according to the US Department
(13:02):
of Education website on IDEA,it's still up as of this
recording, more than 66% ofchildren with disabilities were
in general education classrooms,80% or more of their school day
and early intervention, whichwe haven't really talked about
yet.
Services were provided for morethan 441,000 infants and
(13:22):
toddlers with disabilities andtheir families.
That is...
In 50 years, we have moved fromyou're not allowed to go to
school to 66% of students withidentified disabilities being in
an inclusive environment for80% or more of their day.
I think that's just fascinatingto look at the progress that
(13:44):
we've made.
I wonder if we're going to doanything that will dismantle
that progress and harm children.
Meghan Whittaker (13:49):
Let's find out.
Well, and I also want to saythat that is incredible
progress.
But as you said, inclusion isnot easy to do, right?
It's more than just putting akid in a classroom and teaching
around them.
You have to make sure theytruly can engage and be
successful in their learning.
And so While I appreciate thisstatistic, I also think it's
really important that we digdeeper and we haven't really had
(14:11):
a good opportunity to do thisyet, but to know what kind of
environments are those kids,those 66% of kids in, are they
truly being included in the 80%of time or is there more we can
do to ensure their inclusion?
But I do think that that is animportant kind of milestone to
celebrate and we need continuedprogress to make sure that that
60% of kids are meaningfullybeing included.
Stephanie Melville (14:32):
Yeah.
Zac Chase (14:33):
When we do our entire episode on inclusion, we'll
have you come back because Ithink it's also important to
think through how we talk aboutthe students who don't have
identified disabilities who arein that inclusive space.
Because I think oftentimes weput all of that responsibility
on the student with an IEPversus saying, oh, how do we
build community here?
But that is not theconversation we're having right
(14:54):
now.
So IDEA doesn't just say youhave to do these things.
It also...
Does some of these things.
Can you take us through likewhat the law does?
What are the parts?
What are the major parts ofIDEA?
Meghan Whittaker (15:07):
Yeah.
So I would say two major rolesthat the Department of Education
plays and they correspond tothe two major parts of IDEA.
So IDEA.
by and large, sets kind ofthese guardrails, lay out the
rules for how states anddistricts have to serve children
with disabilities.
So everything from determiningwho is eligible to laying out
(15:29):
the process for actuallydeveloping and approving that
individualized education programto outlining the rights of
parents, right?
All of those details about theeducation of children with
disabilities are outlined inIDEA.
And the Department of Educationhas a role to oversee and kind
of monitor states on all ofthose rules.
And the second major part.
Zac Chase (15:51):
Pause for a second there.
I think this is importantbecause the administration has
repeatedly said, let's send thisback to the states.
And I think it is important tosay that before the U.S.
Department of Education andIDEA, the states did not do
this.
Meghan Whittaker (16:05):
Absolutely.
And so,
Zac Chase (16:06):
yes.
So they're not like, pleasegive us back this responsibility
for enforcing special educationpolicy.
They have never done thatbefore.
except for states that may havetheir own statutes now on the
book.
And where they didn't do it,they really didn't do it.
Yeah,
Meghan Whittaker (16:22):
absolutely.
So that oversight is a majorpart of what the Department of
Education is responsible for.
And I think I would love tocontinue talking about that as
we continue.
But the other major functionhere is funding.
So in order to do all of thiswork, IDEA is a formula grant
program, right?
It has...
grants to states, and there'sthree parts that I'll talk
(16:44):
about, but essentially it gives$15 billion every year to
states.
That money also then goes downto districts to implement this
law.
So we have what we call thePart C program, formula program
that goes to whichever agency inyour state that oversees early
intervention.
In some states, it's theDepartment of Education.
In some states, it's the Healthand Human Services Agency.
(17:07):
But Part C covers our babies upuntil age two.
And the folks that support PartC are going into homes or going
into daycare centers and reallyworking directly with these
babies and helping theirfamilies also learn skills to
support the development of thesechildren.
And then we have our part C,which is broken out, or I'm
(17:27):
sorry, part B, which is brokenout into one program for
preschool.
So helping to support childrenages three to five.
And then our grants to states,which are ages 6 to 21.
So we basically just split IDAby age, and that $15 billion
goes annually to support theprogram.
So the Department of Ed isresponsible for getting that
(17:49):
money out to states and thensupporting them in overseeing
and monitoring to make sure thatthey're following the rules.
But one really important bigpart of this program that's
going to, you'll kind of see whyit's so important that we don't
leave it out right now, isbecause it's not a formula grant
program.
Part D is actually competitivegrants.
It's called nationalactivities.
And these competitive grantsdon't go directly to states or
(18:12):
to districts.
They actually go to a wholebunch of other entities.
It could be universities, itcould be nonprofits, but they
provide programs such aspersonnel preparation and
development programs, or theseparent centers that actually
provide resources andinformation to parents or
technical assistance centersthat operate independently of
the Department of Education, butsupport states in meeting the
(18:35):
obligations under the law.
And then they also fund some edtech and media grant programs,
which really kind of spurinnovation in accessibility and
technology.
So these are separate grantprograms that are competitive,
that are also a major part ofIDEA and the contributions to
kind of keep the field movingand innovative and continuing to
support children as best wecan.
Zac Chase (18:56):
So the way to think of it is like, there's this
bucket of money that is formulamoney that says, how do we reach
in and help the kid, the kidsand the parents kind of more
high, high touch, interactive.
And then there's this otherstream of funding that says, how
do we help the field developbetter resources to help those
people help those kids?
Meghan Whittaker (19:18):
Exactly.
Zac Chase (19:18):
Yep.
Okay.
And how much money did you saygoes to states?
Meghan Whittaker (19:23):
So IDEA is about $15 billion in total for
all of these programs.
Zac Chase (19:27):
Okay.
So that's not to the birththrough 21, but that's all of
IDEA funding is $15 billion.
And if you take $7.5 millionand divide $15 billion by that,
that's just $2,000 a kit.
Yes.
And that's for all of it.
That's not separating theprograms.
(19:48):
That's like the discretionarygrants.
They're the competitive grants.
That's...
We're talking about $2,000 akid.
Meghan Whittaker (19:54):
Which is, if you know anything about the cost
of education, that is notenough to actually cover the
cost of education.
So it's about 10% of what itactually costs to educate a
child with a disability.
And, you know, I think we allknow that state and local
governments essentially pay forthe bulk of education in this
(20:15):
country.
And the same is true forspecial education.
Right.
And most of the IDA funds thatare given to states and
districts actually go towardsspecial education teacher
salaries or the salaries ofother professionals that support
kids with disabilities.
And when IDA was passed in the70s, and actually I think this
might have been a lateramendment to IDA, but it laid
(20:36):
out this promise that said thatthe federal government would
cover 40% of what it costs toeducate a child with a
disability compared to theirpeers.
So that extra cost...
of special education.
And we have never gotten closeto getting that, what we call
full funding, that full-
Zac Chase (20:53):
So we're at 10%?
About
Meghan Whittaker (20:54):
10%?
We've covered between 10 and20% depending on the year in the
last like two decades.
And right now we're at about10%.
Stephanie Melville (21:01):
Yeah.
That checks.
That's just stupid.
Meghan Whittaker (21:06):
And it's unfortunate because we know that
schools really desperately needmore funding.
And it's also unfortunate forthe dynamic that it kind of adds
to the advocacy around fundingbecause oftentimes people see
special education as like thosekids who need so much more.
They're so expensive.
And I think it's reallytroubling when– You know, people
(21:28):
say, well, if you don't fullyfund IDEA, then we have to take
money from other kids to pay forspecial education.
And it makes an unfortunatedynamic around inclusion and why
it's so important that wesupport all kids.
And so, you know, we wouldcontinue to push every year for
full funding of IDEA.
But it really needs to be seenas just the total cost of
(21:48):
educating all kids.
Zac Chase (21:50):
Yeah.
Especially when we know that ifwe do it right, everybody
benefits.
That's weird.
Okay.
Stephanie Melville (21:57):
Yeah.
Zac Chase (21:58):
Okay.
Stephanie, I feel pretty up tospeed about IDEA.
Totally.
Totally.
So it's doing great things.
We've made tremendous progress.
We've never seen Congress makegood on their promise.
That's weird.
That's never happened before.
I guess they get one.
So enter the skinny budget.
(22:22):
This has proposed some changesthat might not be legal as the
law is now, but help usunderstand what is this new
budget proposed, this skinnybudget, this light on details
budget say they want to do withspecial education?
Meghan Whittaker (22:40):
Yeah, it is absolutely light on details,
which makes it hard to reallyknow what they're trying to do
and whether any of it is legal.
So in what I have seen wherethey describe the changes that
they would like to make to IDEAor to special education, They
basically say that they areconsolidating seven programs
under IDEA.
But as I count them, there areeight programs of the ones I
(23:05):
described to you, the three thatgo to states.
And then there are five moretotal under Part D.
I don't know which seven theyare consolidating.
And so that's kind of my firstquestion.
And
Zac Chase (23:16):
as a former chief of staff for the Office of Special
Education and RehabilitativeServices, you know a little bit
about what you're talking aboutright now.
Meghan Whittaker (23:24):
Yeah.
If you look back at everyadministration's budget
justification, right, everypresident puts out their plan
and how they would like Congressto fund the government.
And Every time you see the sameeight programs listed under
special education.
So I don't know which seventhey're focusing on or if maybe
there's one that they've pickedout that they're going to
protect.
But they've said they're goingto consolidate seven of the
(23:46):
eight.
Zac Chase (23:46):
Maybe that was the FBI's budget because I know they
were having trouble finding it.
So maybe they just threw thatin.
Meghan Whittaker (23:52):
It wouldn't be the first time they tried to
take our funds to support otherprograms.
Zac Chase (23:56):
All right.
So they want to consolidate allthe piles of money.
Yeah.
that have historically said,this is for zero to two, this is
for three to five, this isokay.
Meghan Whittaker (24:10):
And I'll get a little technical for one minute
because the entitlement of IDEAis a little different for the
babies compared to the Part Bprogram, right?
So Part B is a guarantee if youare an eligible child with a
disability, you get a freeappropriate public education,
right?
The rules around Part C, and Iwill not claim to be an expert
(24:32):
in them, but the rules aroundPart C are that they have to
make available to you.
So it's a little bit less of aguarantee.
And so I worry that when youdon't explicitly provide that
money to states for an alreadystretched thin program, which is
our Part C program, and youjust give everybody a big bucket
of money.
they're probably going to putthat money to the program that
(24:53):
they have to provide to alleligible kids and perhaps leave
out those babies to two becausethat eligibility is a little
squishier.
So that's one concern I haveabout block granting all of
these programs.
But the second is, is this evenlegal?
Can you just change adiscretionary grant program into
a formula grant program?
I'm not an expert on budget orappropriations, but I'm pretty
(25:17):
sure that IDEA's language, thestatutory language, lays out
Part B, Part C, and then Part D.
And then if you're going tochange Part D from discretionary
to formula, you'd have to amendthe law.
So I don't know that whatthey're suggesting is actually
legal to begin with.
Zac Chase (25:37):
That hasn't stopped us so far.
Stephanie Melville (25:40):
Yeah.
Meghan Whittaker (25:41):
Let's assume that it is legal and that
they're going to move forwardwith this, which hopefully
Congress will not agree to.
There's a lot that we couldlose here.
These discretionary grantprograms are really critical to
the field.
I mentioned the PersonnelPreparation and Development
Program.
These are funds that go touniversities to help cover the
cost of tuition and stipends forpreparing and training new
(26:03):
professionals.
Special education is a highneed area.
We have had shortages inspecial education for decades.
And so these programs trainearly childhood related service
providers and specialty areaslike working with deaf or blind
students.
And so it's really importantthat we continue to provide
these funding to make sure wehave a steady pipeline of
(26:26):
educators continuing to enterthe field and to continue to
train educators at theuniversity level.
We know that every, almostevery state has shortages of
special educators and almostevery school struggles to fill
those vacancies.
So that personnel prep programwould, would really, it would
really hurt the field if we justcombined all of that into a
formula
Zac Chase (26:45):
grant.
And so if we, if we just gave,state's a big old, not a big
old, but just a pile of money.
I think it's really helpful tothink through.
They're probably going to dothe things that they have to do.
Stephanie Melville (26:59):
Right.
Right.
Zac Chase (27:02):
And maybe not as much the things that they could or
should do.
And maybe they don'tnecessarily have the mechanisms
at the state level.
Again, handing things back tothe states that the states never
had.
Maybe they don't have amechanism at at the state level
to give specific grants tostudents who are training to be
(27:26):
special education teachers.
So I'm not saying that there'sever a danger that people don't
want to be teachers becausepeople are flocking to
universities to be teachers.
We've made it look real sexy.
But go with me here.
Maybe they're not as interestedin being teachers for a minute
and we are taking away some kindof financial support for those
(27:47):
who are are deciding to do it.
And I will say it is a deeplypersonal thing.
Every special education teacherI've ever had the privilege of
work with, it was a personaldrive.
And that's great, but notenough to feed a family or pay
your rent.
(28:07):
Right.
So maybe we should think aboutthat.
Okay.
So this is getting bad.
Yeah.
Anything else we should worryabout, Megan?
Meghan Whittaker (28:17):
So also in those part-day discretionary
grant programs are the parenttraining centers.
And IDA funds about 100 parentcenters around the country, at
least one in every single state.
So if you are a parent who islike, I think there's something
going on with my child.
I'm not really sure how tosupport them.
You could go to a parentcenter.
And those are run by thestates?
(28:47):
No, these are run by nonprofitsor other entities who compete
to get these grants to run theseparent centers.
So they are not affiliated withthe states and they are kind of
an independent organizationthat parents can seek support
(29:07):
from.
Zac Chase (29:08):
Okay, but that's the worst thing that can happen.
There's no other bad news,right?
Meghan Whittaker (29:13):
Well, the only other piece that I would
mention in the Part D programare the technical assistance
centers.
So I mentioned that theDepartment of Education has the
responsibility of overseeing andkind of monitoring state
compliance with all of theserules that IDEA puts on them.
And these technical assistancecenters are, again, kind of
(29:33):
independent entities funded bythe department to help states
with complicated things likedata collection or specific
issues like supporting studentbehavior or providing intensive
intervention.
So these are outside expertsthat create kind of a hub and
repositories of information andreally are able to work
one-on-one with states to helpthem address issues that they
(29:54):
are facing.
So, you know, we often put outguidance and policy documents as
a department, but thesetechnical assistance centers
work kind of in a closerrelationship with the states to
tackle hard problems.
So that resource would be goneand would leave states without
necessary support.
Zac Chase (30:13):
But a state could get their money and decide they
would fund the centers.
Meghan Whittaker (30:24):
They could, but when you're only getting
about 10% of the cost of specialeducation, I can't imagine you
would spend the money onanything else.
Zac Chase (30:33):
Okay.
Well, at least there are stillpeople at the U.S.
Department of Education.
When we have a problem, like ifa state or a district is out of
compliance, at least there arepeople in the Office for Civil
Rights to whom we can turn.
Well,
Meghan Whittaker (30:53):
that's another challenge.
Zac Chase (30:55):
This is as frustrating as learning about
Supreme Court decisions withJohn Becker.
But please go on.
Meghan Whittaker (31:04):
When the Department of Education executed
their reduction in force acouple of months ago now,
they...
Absolutely preserved theprogram staff who work on IDEA,
which was really nice to seethat the department is making
good on their promise to protectthis really important program.
(31:24):
Except what they did do was cutevery attorney from the Office
of General Counsel.
that had any expertise in IDEA.
So whenever we monitor states,whenever we put out, we send
them letters about our findingsor whenever we want to issue
corrective action plans, all ofthat is done in partnership with
the attorneys who are expertson IDEA.
(31:46):
And so while certainly theprogram staff can continue to
work with states and do theirmonitoring, there has been a I
guess it's a major hindrancethat now we don't have any legal
experts to kind of sign off onall of those materials and make
sure that the Department ofEducation is working within the
bounds of the law.
So I guess what you could seeis that there will be maybe less
(32:09):
monitoring, less teeth to themonitoring.
We have to see kind of wherethis goes, but a major resource
for OSERS has been removed withthe RIF affecting general
counsel.
Stephanie Melville (32:20):
It feels like if you were to take it down
to like a classroom level,asking a math teacher to teach a
history lesson, right?
You have almost like this warmbody mentality of your area of
expertise doesn't matter, right?
you can just do the job becauseyou hold the qualifications
sort of to do it.
(32:41):
Right.
Meghan Whittaker (32:43):
You're a lawyer.
You can sign this document.
Yeah, exactly.
Stephanie Melville (32:46):
Yeah.
So
Zac Chase (32:47):
like if I'm accused of murder, I'm not going to go
to a tax attorney to defend me.
Stephanie Melville (32:53):
Right.
Right.
And I just did the, the wholething that you were talking
about earlier.
Zac Chase (32:57):
I did any murders.
I just, uh,
Stephanie Melville (32:59):
Just throw that out there just for
clarification.
Zac Chase (33:02):
I should have said like, if Stephanie is accused of
murder,
Stephanie Melville (33:05):
we can't talk about me.
It's fine.
No, it just, it kind of remindsme of when I was in the
classroom and I was a mathteacher and I had students with
disabilities who had IEPs and Iwould have co-teachers or parent
educators or, you know,whatever it was.
And they'd come into myclassroom and some of them would
(33:26):
just be in tears because theycouldn't, provide support
services to the students.
And when I would go to our viceprincipal or your assistant
principal, whatever yourterminology is, I would go to
them and I would say, hey, Ineed somebody who can help my
high school students.
And the VP would say, no, whatyou need is a warm body.
(33:49):
And it's just infuriating.
Zac Chase (33:52):
Heavy sigh.
Stephanie Melville (33:53):
Yeah.
Okay.
Meghan Whittaker (33:56):
Any other great news for us, Megan?
So I think there's anotherconcern here.
When I look at, again, the verylight on details, very short
description of the prioritiesaround IDEA for this
administration, they also make astatement about how they will
maintain a base of federal fundsthat can be withdrawn from
(34:19):
states and districts who floatparental rights.
And I think there was anotherkind of line in there about
parents directing the funding,right?
So that kind of sets some redflags when I read it because,
you know, IDEA is premised onparents being a member of the
team and it clearly carves outrights for parents, right?
(34:41):
There is no part of IDEA thatisn't really heavy on making
sure parents are part of thisprocess.
But to me, this administrationis making good on their promise
to really push towards parentchoice and private schools and
vouchers.
And that worries me for a lotof reasons because currently the
(35:02):
way that they describe it,saying they're going to maintain
the parents' ability to directfunds, that's not really how IDA
works.
Right now, the way that thesystem works is that districts
have to have a continuum ofservices.
And if you're not happy or ifyour child is not able to
succeed in the setting thatthey're in, there's a whole
process to engage with thedistrict.
(35:23):
to move them to a differentsetting if appropriate.
And if it comes down to thepoint where your child needs a
private school to meet theirneeds, the district would pay
for that, right?
So there is a mechanism forchildren to attend private
schools under IDEA ifappropriate.
Parents can also take theirchildren out of public schools
and just go to a private schoolindependent of the school
(35:44):
district and pay for thatseparately.
And I worry that this move toblock grant funds will be their
attempt to give the $2,000 astudent that Zach calculated
earlier to parents to say, ifyou don't like your public
school, take your $2,000 in IDAfunding and go elsewhere.
Because not only is that nevergoing to be enough to get you
(36:08):
the kind of school you may needfor your child with a
disability, but But you do nothave the same rights under IDEA
in a private school that you doin a public school.
There is a kind of complex partof the regulation that talks
about equitable services andproportionate share of IDEA
funding.
But ultimately, what that comesdown to is that private schools
(36:30):
get a little bit of money.
provide some kind of service toall their kids, but you don't
get an IEP and you don't getFAPE if you go to a private
school.
So there's no obligation forthose private schools to even
take you if you try to show upwith your $2,000 voucher.
And if you do get in there,there's no right to FAPE, to the
IEP that you deserve or to anyof the supports that you need.
(36:50):
And we have seen historicallyin states that have voucher
programs for kids withdisabilities, A lot of kids with
disabilities get turned awaybecause the school doesn't even
want to try to support them.
And it essentially becomes acoupon for families who can
afford a private school.
And it sends every other kidwho doesn't have enough money
back into the public school withmore significant needs and not
(37:13):
enough money for the schooldistrict to pay for them.
So that is kind of my concernabout where this is going and
how it would play out if theytried to turn this into a
voucher scheme.
Stephanie Melville (37:24):
Can I rephrase what you're saying or
like revoice what you're sayingto make sure that I understand
that last little component?
So if we go into a vouchersystem and I want to send my kid
to a private school, first ofall, there's no guarantee that
that private school will acceptmy child.
Meghan Whittaker (37:45):
Correct.
Stephanie Melville (37:46):
And if my child creates enough of a quote
problem for them, that's allthey need is to say you're no
longer welcome at this school.
And so now,
Zac Chase (37:59):
sorry, I think it's also important at the beginning
at the application process, theymight look at, like, if you
bring the IEP, they might say,we actually don't have the
resources necessary to meet yourchild's needs, which would be
a, a valid point, right?
Like that is, that is, that istheir right to do and probably
better for your student to knowahead of time.
(38:21):
We don't have the resources.
We don't have an occupationaltherapist on staff, to give an
example.
So that's an okay thing to say.
I would rather know that now.
But then, yes, the otherpieces, they say, oh, we've got
the resources.
And then if the demands of yourchild for their education are
(38:42):
too high, they do have the rightto say you need to go somewhere
else because we, again, can'tmeet your needs.
Stephanie Melville (38:49):
Right.
And so then...
Because the voucher was used, Isuppose, at this private
school, that doesn't getdeposited, maybe, I suppose,
toward the public school'sbudget?
Meghan Whittaker (39:03):
Right.
You'd have to think about kidswho start in one school and go
back to another, the financiallogistics of that.
But the bigger picture, thebigger impact is...
a big number of kids withdisabilities might be leaving
the public school to go to theseprivate schools and taking
their, let's say, $2,000 withthem, which just reduces the
amount that the public schoolhas to work with in general,
right?
(39:23):
So you have an under-resourcedschool, probably left with some
of the higher-need students, andall due to the voucher system.
Zac Chase (39:32):
And we have eliminated direct funding to any
parental assistance centers ortechnical assistance centers so
that we have made sure that ifI'm a parent who's trying to
navigate that system, there'snot necessarily any federal
place that I can go to.
And we haven't necessarilycreated a crop of teachers who
want to go into specialeducation.
(39:52):
So the resources to supportthose students, whether in a
public or private school, areless.
Stephanie Melville (39:59):
Right.
And we don't have the legalsupport systems available.
to make sure that schools aredoing what they're supposed to
be doing.
Meghan Whittaker (40:05):
And I didn't touch on that in the list of
what else have they done, but...
No, you can't add more
Zac Chase (40:13):
now.
The
Meghan Whittaker (40:15):
IDA lays out a number of mechanisms for
parents who want to file acomplaint or a grievance about
their rights, whether theirchild's not getting the services
that they need or they disagreewith the school.
There's a due process system atthe state level, district and
state level, that parents canfollow.
At the federal level, though,the Department of Education
(40:36):
works directly with states aboutstate obligations.
And so the recourse for parentswho have a complainer on IDEA
is essentially to submit acomplaint to the Office for
Civil Rights.
And the Office for Civil Rightswill investigate instances of
disability discrimination at thelocal level.
And with the rifts a couple ofmonths ago, they cut the Office
(40:59):
for Civil Rights in about half.
And so there is a much smallernumber of attorneys left to work
on these cases.
And I want to say about half ofall of the complaints received
by the Office for Civil Rightsare related to disability
discrimination.
So we're not only taking awaythe parent training centers in a
block grant kind of situation,but we're really reducing the
(41:21):
recourse that parents have atthe federal level if they want
to take issue with what's goingon in their district.
Stephanie Melville (41:27):
Please tell me there's nothing left.
Meghan Whittaker (41:31):
That's all I've got on my list for today.
Zac Chase (41:33):
There's that part where they're going to take all
the puppies and just throw themin a river.
Yeah,
Stephanie Melville (41:37):
right?
Good Lord.
Meghan Whittaker (41:38):
But I really want to say, the messaging
around IDEA from the beginningof this administration has been,
we're going to protect thisprogram.
We're going to protect parentrights.
We're going to protect specialeducation and people with
disabilities.
And then all of these stepsthat they have taken right in,
On its face, this all lookslike, oh, you're preserving
IDEA.
(41:58):
You're turning it into a blockgrant, but you're preserving
IDEA at the same funding level.
And it's really not until youlook under the hood and really
think about the policy changesthat they're proposing that you
would even really get to any ofthese really concerning ideas
that are coming up.
Zac Chase (42:13):
Okay.
So everything is horrible.
Nothing is good.
It's a horrible, no good, verybad day in Australia.
Or...
Thank you so much for joiningus.
Everybody knows somebody who isor who benefited from it
(42:48):
because it's been around for 50years.
There are still things peoplecan do.
What can people do now to helpsome of our most vulnerable
children in the country?
Meghan Whittaker (42:59):
I think at the most basic level, continuing to
share stories, right?
So that you...
People realize that they knowsomebody who knows somebody
that's affected by this, right?
Making this a really human tohuman issue is important in
educating members of Congress orlocal decision makers about why
this is so important.
I think education is a firststep.
At the federal level, therehave been bills to fully fund
(43:23):
IDEA for probably decades now.
They don't always make it veryfar each congressional session,
but every year they arereintroduced and they would put
IDEA on a path to that 40% offunding that was promised.
So asking your members ofCongress to support those bills
and to help them understand whythey're so important is
something you can do at thefederal level.
Locally and at your statelevel, I think it's really
(43:45):
important to know about whetheryour state has a voucher
program.
And if not, get involved in theadvocacy to ensure that
decision makers understand whythis could be problematic and
harmful to the public schoolecosystem as a whole, and
specifically to children withdisabilities who may lose their
rights and may also be turnedaway from schools.
(44:06):
So those are a couple of stepsI think you can take in the
advocacy space, but educatingothers, helping them learn more
about this, I think is one ofthe most, the simplest things
you can do.
Zac Chase (44:18):
And reaching out to your congressperson, right?
And letting them know thismatters to you, this matters to
your family, to your niece, yournephew, that these are kids who
deserve a free and appropriatepublic education and for whom
that may be impossible withoutthis support.
I feel like I'm running an NPRtelethon right now.
(44:40):
We will, as always, when wesign off, tell you, please, you
know, Subscribe to the podcast,rate the podcast.
I would also, maybe we'll saythat's, we've done it now.
So like the, subscribe to thepodcast, rate the podcast.
But I would implore you toshare this episode with folks
who you think need to betterunderstand special education and
(45:01):
how it happens in this country.
And if you are somebody whoisn't sure how to have the
conversation, but you know yourkids or kids you care about are
impacted by this, share thisepisode so they can get a better
understanding.
Megan, Thank you for spendingthis time with us.
Thank you for helping us tounderstand these things.
We will need to talk aboutinclusion later.
Stephanie Melville (45:23):
Definitely.
Zac Chase (45:24):
We'll talk to you then.
Stephanie Melville (45:25):
Keep your inbox.
Keep an eye on your inbox,please.
Meghan Whittaker (45:28):
Thank you for having me.
This issue is so important andI will take every opportunity I
can to talk about it.
So thanks.
Stephanie Melville (45:35):
Thank you.
Zac Chase (45:37):
So for Academic Distinctions, I'm Zach Chase.
Stephanie Melville (45:40):
I'm Stephanie Melville.
Zac Chase (45:42):
Please make sure you subscribe, make sure you rate,
and share this particularepisode with folks so we can
make sure all kids have a chanceto learn.
Hi, I'm Stephanie Melville.
Zac Chase (00:15):
And I'm Zac Chase.
And welcome to AcademicDistinctions, a podcast to make
sense of American education.
Today we're going to be talkingabout the skinny, the skinny
budget, which I didn't know whatit was because I don't really
pay attention to these thingsuntil I started going and
researching it.
The Trump administration hassent or released its skinny
(00:37):
budget, which is a light here,our priorities budget for folks
to see what their plans are.
Of particular note is somepotential changes.
to IDEA or the Individuals withDisabilities Education Act,
which puts me, I think, I knowwhat AI is and I know what IDEA
(00:58):
stands for.
So that puts me two to zeroagainst the current Secretary of
Education to help me make senseof this.
Megan Whitaker, a good friend,also the former chief of staff
for the Office of SpecialEducation and Rehabilitative
Services at the U.S.
Department of Education.
I bet you can guess when shestopped being that.
(01:18):
And the policy director for theformer policy director for the
National Center on LearningDisabilities and just a good
person.
Megan, thanks for joining.
Meghan Whittaker (01:28):
Thanks so much for having me.
Zac Chase (01:30):
So let's set the stage.
Most people, I think, unlessthey've had a direct interaction
with it, do not know what IDEAis.
So in the most basic of terms,pretend that you just got
confirmed by Congress to be theSecretary of Education, but you
(01:51):
have no background in education,and you were trying to get up
to speed.
How would you explain IDEA?
Meghan Whittaker (02:00):
Well, in the most basic terms, IDEA, the
Individuals with DisabilitiesEducation Act, is our nation's
special education law.
It is a guarantee from thefederal government that every
state will make sure thateligible children with
disabilities will have access towhat we call a free and
appropriate public education.
So at no cost to parents,individualized based on the
(02:22):
needs of each student, and thefederal law, it places
responsibilities on states anddistricts to comply.
That's kind of in a nutshellwhat IDEA is.
Zac Chase (02:32):
And so like appropriate, not like we're not
going to show like tell dirtyjokes, but like appropriate to
each
Meghan Whittaker (02:39):
individual student.
Exactly.
So, you know, it meets thisobligation of providing a free
appropriate public educationthrough special education.
The law calls it speciallydesigned instruction and related
services.
So that could be adapting thecontent or the delivery of
content in the classroom for achild based on their needs.
Maybe it's one-to-oneinstruction from a special
(03:00):
educator, a group session with aliteracy specialist if you have
dyslexia, and then relatedservices.
So speech therapy, maybe weeklysessions with an occupational
therapist if you have delays ormobility issues.
So everything about IDEA isabout individualization for the
child so that they can accesseducation.
And
Zac Chase (03:19):
the piece that most people have probably heard of
related to IDEA is an IEP orlike a legally binding program
to meet the specific needs tomake sure that that is in fact
an appropriate education forthose individual children,
right?
Meghan Whittaker (03:33):
Absolutely.
And that IEP is revisited everyyear.
It's designed in partnershipwith the parents or the
caregiver of that child.
And it includes goals,measurable goals about what we
want to see that child able toaccomplish.
And it also includes all of thespecific supports,
accommodations or services thatthat child needs, including
things like technology,assistive technology or other
(03:55):
devices to make educationaccessible.
So that IEP is kind of theguiding document that helps to
design the education.
Zac Chase (04:03):
One of the things I've heard people say about IEPs
in the past is like, oh, man,every kid should have one of
those.
And I don't disagree with that.
But it is important to knowthat IDEA makes sure that the
kids for whom it is necessaryget the services that they need.
It would be great if we had anindividualized education program
(04:24):
for every kid.
And many schools are working todo that.
But this legislation says forthe kids who could otherwise
fall through the cracks– This isthat backstop.
Meghan Whittaker (04:34):
Exactly.
The goal is to give access togeneral curriculum to every
child.
And some children will needmore support to access that
general curriculum.
So the IEP is what's intendedto do that.
And the goal is to help everychild meet the same
expectations, meet the samestandards.
And really importantly, specialeducation is not a place.
It is instruction.
(04:55):
It is services.
And it's how we support kids,ideally, in school.
an environment with theirnon-disabled peers.
Zac Chase (05:03):
How many kids are we talking about?
Five or six across the country?
Meghan Whittaker (05:06):
We are talking about over 7 million.
So 7.5 million children.
It seems to kind of tickupwards every year.
And that's about 15% of allstudents in our public schools.
Really, it comes down tochildren with disabilities are
in every single school, verylikely in every classroom across
the country.
And there's a wide variety ofdisabilities that are included
(05:30):
under IDEA and a wide variety ofthings that might make a child
eligible for these services.
There's 13 categories in IDEA,everything from speech and
language disorders, learningdisabilities, autism, behavioral
disabilities.
And so no two children are thesame and they are your
neighbors.
They're at every singleclassroom.
(05:51):
And so it's really importantthat we think about how to
design learning so everyone can.
Stephanie Melville (05:55):
I have a question.
You mentioned, Megan, that thatnumber that 7.5 million ticks
upwards a little bit year overyear.
And that is a thing that hasbeen in the news as of late.
Can you talk maybe a little bitabout why that number might
tick upwards year over year?
Meghan Whittaker (06:15):
Absolutely.
We've seen the population ofstudents with disabilities shift
over the course of decades.
It has gone up slowly.
So I wouldn't say that thereare major upticks, but we are
getting better at identifyingkids who need supports.
And so, you know, theterminology that we have used to
describe different kinds ofdisabilities has changed as
(06:35):
we've begun to understand moreabout those.
And you know, IDEA sets thesepretty broad parameters for what
these 13 categories are.
And then states actually definehow you go about identifying
those kids.
And so as we learn more aboutspeech disorders, as we learn
more about autism or behavioralneeds of students, we're better
able to articulate what thoseare and then put in place the
(06:58):
right kinds of evaluationprocesses to capture kids who
have these needs.
And so I think by, you know,the, the, as the population of
public school students is alsogrowing over those years, so is
the population of kids withdisabilities, and we're better
at identifying them and meetingtheir needs.
So I think that that's kind ofa natural progression, is that
(07:19):
these numbers will go up as weget better at identifying
Zac Chase (07:22):
them.
So it's not because people aredrinking pasteurized milk?
Meghan Whittaker (07:26):
No, I mean, and there are important things
to think about, though, when youthink about Flint, Michigan,
right, where we have majorcrises and environmental things
that will impact students andtheir development.
So I don't want to discount thefact that there are really
significant environmental thingsthat we should be on the
lookout for and be mitigatingand preventing.
But that's not to say that anyof these are curable or
(07:50):
preventable.
It's just it's a complex kindof intersection of things.
the brain and behavior andenvironment.
Zac Chase (08:01):
So Stephanie and I were classroom teachers.
We, as part of our preparation,had an overview.
There were requirements for usto understand special education.
We also probably care about itmore as parents who are thinking
these things through.
I know you're a parent as well,and it's your life's work.
But if I'm not a parent orcaregiver...
(08:22):
And I don't have it or I don'thave a child who qualifies for
special education services.
Why should I care about IDEA?
And we are going to talk aboutthe proposed budget in a second.
So I think it's important tosay why is this thing important
to everybody in the first placebefore we understand what is
being proposed to happen to it?
Meghan Whittaker (08:42):
And I think it comes back to history and
looking at where we were beforeIDA was passed.
So IDA was passed in 1975.
It was called the Education forAll Handicapped Children Act
back then.
And before that passed,children with disabilities were
not guaranteed an education inthis country.
There are actually states thathad laws that prohibited certain
(09:03):
children with disabilities fromattending public schools.
So if you were blind or deaf oryou had an intellectual
disability, you might actuallybe institutionalized instead.
And so we have lots of evidenceabout the pretty horrific
conditions that a lot acceptingall children with disabilities
(09:44):
in public schools and this kindof moral imperative that hey, we
really should be ensuringaccess for all children.
So IDEA was reallygroundbreaking, and I think it's
an essential law for anyone whobelieves that children can
learn and that they should haveaccess to the resources that
they need to do so.
We have seen since the passageof IDEA the incredible benefits
(10:04):
of inclusion.
Inclusion is really theintentional design of education
systems that provide everystudent access and opportunities
and a sense of belonging.
We see that students withdisabilities achieve at higher
rates when they are includedalongside their non-disabled
peers, we see that they canreally meet high expectations
(10:25):
when we set them.
And we also see that studentswithout disabilities benefit as
well.
They also experience academicimprovements and more social
benefits, right?
Learning alongside people whoaren't like them.
And so I think that it'simportant if we care about the
future of our country, thedevelopment of all of our
students, and the sense ofinclusion and belonging in
(10:45):
schools, including students withdisabilities, is incredibly
important.
And that is why IDEA exists andwhy we need to continue to
protect it.
Zac Chase (10:52):
I want to stop because you said something
really– you said a number ofreally important things there.
So I'm going to pause and goback.
So one of them is around beforewe said these children need to
be in public schools, right?
And there is a deep body ofdocumentaries that you can just–
(11:14):
get really angry while youwatch about how we used to treat
children with disabilities.
It is part of our country'slong history of othering and
treating difference as less thanhuman.
That progress and what we haveseen oftentimes is that the law
and statute is sometimes thepiece that needs to happen to
(11:36):
help shift culture and practice.
The other piece there, and Ithink that this is really worth
repeating, is Inclusion has beenshown to help all students.
Now, we know that research isall over the place.
Context matters.
Delivery matters, right?
So like the best versions ofinclusion.
Right.
Not just putting a student witha disability in a space.
(11:59):
Right.
But like truly thinking aboutthe design.
And there's this piece from theUniversity of New Hampshire
says research studies confirmthat inclusive classroom
environments have numerouswidespread benefits for all
students.
They promote individuality andgreater social connections while
also providing new learningopportunities.
Studies show that inclusiveclassrooms improve academic
(12:19):
performance and socialdevelopment across the board.
And researchers point to bettersocial competencies and
communication skills, fewerschool absences and incidents of
disruptive behavior andincreased empathy and compassion
toward peers.
I love the reason I pull thatone is it doesn't say for
students with disabilities orstudents without identified
(12:40):
disabilities.
It says this is just better forkids.
And there are ways that that isdone that are really bad where
those are not the outcomes.
I think we need to Acknowledgethat, but in the best practices,
I think that that is important.
I think it's also reallyinteresting as we were prepping
for the episode in 2022 to 2023,according to the US Department
(13:02):
of Education website on IDEA,it's still up as of this
recording, more than 66% ofchildren with disabilities were
in general education classrooms,80% or more of their school day
and early intervention, whichwe haven't really talked about
yet.
Services were provided for morethan 441,000 infants and
(13:22):
toddlers with disabilities andtheir families.
That is...
In 50 years, we have moved fromyou're not allowed to go to
school to 66% of students withidentified disabilities being in
an inclusive environment for80% or more of their day.
I think that's just fascinatingto look at the progress that
(13:44):
we've made.
I wonder if we're going to doanything that will dismantle
that progress and harm children.
Meghan Whittaker (13:49):
Let's find out.
Well, and I also want to saythat that is incredible
progress.
But as you said, inclusion isnot easy to do, right?
It's more than just putting akid in a classroom and teaching
around them.
You have to make sure theytruly can engage and be
successful in their learning.
And so While I appreciate thisstatistic, I also think it's
really important that we digdeeper and we haven't really had
(14:11):
a good opportunity to do thisyet, but to know what kind of
environments are those kids,those 66% of kids in, are they
truly being included in the 80%of time or is there more we can
do to ensure their inclusion?
But I do think that that is animportant kind of milestone to
celebrate and we need continuedprogress to make sure that that
60% of kids are meaningfullybeing included.
Stephanie Melville (14:32):
Yeah.
Zac Chase (14:33):
When we do our entire episode on inclusion, we'll
have you come back because Ithink it's also important to
think through how we talk aboutthe students who don't have
identified disabilities who arein that inclusive space.
Because I think oftentimes weput all of that responsibility
on the student with an IEPversus saying, oh, how do we
build community here?
But that is not theconversation we're having right
(14:54):
now.
So IDEA doesn't just say youhave to do these things.
It also...
Does some of these things.
Can you take us through likewhat the law does?
What are the parts?
What are the major parts ofIDEA?
Meghan Whittaker (15:07):
Yeah.
So I would say two major rolesthat the Department of Education
plays and they correspond tothe two major parts of IDEA.
So IDEA.
by and large, sets kind ofthese guardrails, lay out the
rules for how states anddistricts have to serve children
with disabilities.
So everything from determiningwho is eligible to laying out
(15:29):
the process for actuallydeveloping and approving that
individualized education programto outlining the rights of
parents, right?
All of those details about theeducation of children with
disabilities are outlined inIDEA.
And the Department of Educationhas a role to oversee and kind
of monitor states on all ofthose rules.
And the second major part.
Zac Chase (15:51):
Pause for a second there.
I think this is importantbecause the administration has
repeatedly said, let's send thisback to the states.
And I think it is important tosay that before the U.S.
Department of Education andIDEA, the states did not do
this.
Meghan Whittaker (16:05):
Absolutely.
And so,
Zac Chase (16:06):
yes.
So they're not like, pleasegive us back this responsibility
for enforcing special educationpolicy.
They have never done thatbefore.
except for states that may havetheir own statutes now on the
book.
And where they didn't do it,they really didn't do it.
Yeah,
Meghan Whittaker (16:22):
absolutely.
So that oversight is a majorpart of what the Department of
Education is responsible for.
And I think I would love tocontinue talking about that as
we continue.
But the other major functionhere is funding.
So in order to do all of thiswork, IDEA is a formula grant
program, right?
It has...
grants to states, and there'sthree parts that I'll talk
(16:44):
about, but essentially it gives$15 billion every year to
states.
That money also then goes downto districts to implement this
law.
So we have what we call thePart C program, formula program
that goes to whichever agency inyour state that oversees early
intervention.
In some states, it's theDepartment of Education.
In some states, it's the Healthand Human Services Agency.
(17:07):
But Part C covers our babies upuntil age two.
And the folks that support PartC are going into homes or going
into daycare centers and reallyworking directly with these
babies and helping theirfamilies also learn skills to
support the development of thesechildren.
And then we have our part C,which is broken out, or I'm
(17:27):
sorry, part B, which is brokenout into one program for
preschool.
So helping to support childrenages three to five.
And then our grants to states,which are ages 6 to 21.
So we basically just split IDAby age, and that $15 billion
goes annually to support theprogram.
So the Department of Ed isresponsible for getting that
(17:49):
money out to states and thensupporting them in overseeing
and monitoring to make sure thatthey're following the rules.
But one really important bigpart of this program that's
going to, you'll kind of see whyit's so important that we don't
leave it out right now, isbecause it's not a formula grant
program.
Part D is actually competitivegrants.
It's called nationalactivities.
And these competitive grantsdon't go directly to states or
(18:12):
to districts.
They actually go to a wholebunch of other entities.
It could be universities, itcould be nonprofits, but they
provide programs such aspersonnel preparation and
development programs, or theseparent centers that actually
provide resources andinformation to parents or
technical assistance centersthat operate independently of
the Department of Education, butsupport states in meeting the
(18:35):
obligations under the law.
And then they also fund some edtech and media grant programs,
which really kind of spurinnovation in accessibility and
technology.
So these are separate grantprograms that are competitive,
that are also a major part ofIDEA and the contributions to
kind of keep the field movingand innovative and continuing to
support children as best wecan.
Zac Chase (18:56):
So the way to think of it is like, there's this
bucket of money that is formulamoney that says, how do we reach
in and help the kid, the kidsand the parents kind of more
high, high touch, interactive.
And then there's this otherstream of funding that says, how
do we help the field developbetter resources to help those
people help those kids?
Meghan Whittaker (19:18):
Exactly.
Zac Chase (19:18):
Yep.
Okay.
And how much money did you saygoes to states?
Meghan Whittaker (19:23):
So IDEA is about $15 billion in total for
all of these programs.
Zac Chase (19:27):
Okay.
So that's not to the birththrough 21, but that's all of
IDEA funding is $15 billion.
And if you take $7.5 millionand divide $15 billion by that,
that's just $2,000 a kit.
Yes.
And that's for all of it.
That's not separating theprograms.
(19:48):
That's like the discretionarygrants.
They're the competitive grants.
That's...
We're talking about $2,000 akid.
Meghan Whittaker (19:54):
Which is, if you know anything about the cost
of education, that is notenough to actually cover the
cost of education.
So it's about 10% of what itactually costs to educate a
child with a disability.
And, you know, I think we allknow that state and local
governments essentially pay forthe bulk of education in this
(20:15):
country.
And the same is true forspecial education.
Right.
And most of the IDA funds thatare given to states and
districts actually go towardsspecial education teacher
salaries or the salaries ofother professionals that support
kids with disabilities.
And when IDA was passed in the70s, and actually I think this
might have been a lateramendment to IDA, but it laid
(20:36):
out this promise that said thatthe federal government would
cover 40% of what it costs toeducate a child with a
disability compared to theirpeers.
So that extra cost...
of special education.
And we have never gotten closeto getting that, what we call
full funding, that full-
Zac Chase (20:53):
So we're at 10%?
About
Meghan Whittaker (20:54):
10%?
We've covered between 10 and20% depending on the year in the
last like two decades.
And right now we're at about10%.
Stephanie Melville (21:01):
Yeah.
That checks.
That's just stupid.
Meghan Whittaker (21:06):
And it's unfortunate because we know that
schools really desperately needmore funding.
And it's also unfortunate forthe dynamic that it kind of adds
to the advocacy around fundingbecause oftentimes people see
special education as like thosekids who need so much more.
They're so expensive.
And I think it's reallytroubling when– You know, people
(21:28):
say, well, if you don't fullyfund IDEA, then we have to take
money from other kids to pay forspecial education.
And it makes an unfortunatedynamic around inclusion and why
it's so important that wesupport all kids.
And so, you know, we wouldcontinue to push every year for
full funding of IDEA.
But it really needs to be seenas just the total cost of
(21:48):
educating all kids.
Zac Chase (21:50):
Yeah.
Especially when we know that ifwe do it right, everybody
benefits.
That's weird.
Okay.
Stephanie Melville (21:57):
Yeah.
Zac Chase (21:58):
Okay.
Stephanie, I feel pretty up tospeed about IDEA.
Totally.
Totally.
So it's doing great things.
We've made tremendous progress.
We've never seen Congress makegood on their promise.
That's weird.
That's never happened before.
I guess they get one.
So enter the skinny budget.
(22:22):
This has proposed some changesthat might not be legal as the
law is now, but help usunderstand what is this new
budget proposed, this skinnybudget, this light on details
budget say they want to do withspecial education?
Meghan Whittaker (22:40):
Yeah, it is absolutely light on details,
which makes it hard to reallyknow what they're trying to do
and whether any of it is legal.
So in what I have seen wherethey describe the changes that
they would like to make to IDEAor to special education, They
basically say that they areconsolidating seven programs
under IDEA.
But as I count them, there areeight programs of the ones I
(23:05):
described to you, the three thatgo to states.
And then there are five moretotal under Part D.
I don't know which seven theyare consolidating.
And so that's kind of my firstquestion.
And
Zac Chase (23:16):
as a former chief of staff for the Office of Special
Education and RehabilitativeServices, you know a little bit
about what you're talking aboutright now.
Meghan Whittaker (23:24):
Yeah.
If you look back at everyadministration's budget
justification, right, everypresident puts out their plan
and how they would like Congressto fund the government.
And Every time you see the sameeight programs listed under
special education.
So I don't know which seventhey're focusing on or if maybe
there's one that they've pickedout that they're going to
protect.
But they've said they're goingto consolidate seven of the
(23:46):
eight.
Zac Chase (23:46):
Maybe that was the FBI's budget because I know they
were having trouble finding it.
So maybe they just threw thatin.
Meghan Whittaker (23:52):
It wouldn't be the first time they tried to
take our funds to support otherprograms.
Zac Chase (23:56):
All right.
So they want to consolidate allthe piles of money.
Yeah.
that have historically said,this is for zero to two, this is
for three to five, this isokay.
Meghan Whittaker (24:10):
And I'll get a little technical for one minute
because the entitlement of IDEAis a little different for the
babies compared to the Part Bprogram, right?
So Part B is a guarantee if youare an eligible child with a
disability, you get a freeappropriate public education,
right?
The rules around Part C, and Iwill not claim to be an expert
(24:32):
in them, but the rules aroundPart C are that they have to
make available to you.
So it's a little bit less of aguarantee.
And so I worry that when youdon't explicitly provide that
money to states for an alreadystretched thin program, which is
our Part C program, and youjust give everybody a big bucket
of money.
they're probably going to putthat money to the program that
(24:53):
they have to provide to alleligible kids and perhaps leave
out those babies to two becausethat eligibility is a little
squishier.
So that's one concern I haveabout block granting all of
these programs.
But the second is, is this evenlegal?
Can you just change adiscretionary grant program into
a formula grant program?
I'm not an expert on budget orappropriations, but I'm pretty
(25:17):
sure that IDEA's language, thestatutory language, lays out
Part B, Part C, and then Part D.
And then if you're going tochange Part D from discretionary
to formula, you'd have to amendthe law.
So I don't know that whatthey're suggesting is actually
legal to begin with.
Zac Chase (25:37):
That hasn't stopped us so far.
Stephanie Melville (25:40):
Yeah.
Meghan Whittaker (25:41):
Let's assume that it is legal and that
they're going to move forwardwith this, which hopefully
Congress will not agree to.
There's a lot that we couldlose here.
These discretionary grantprograms are really critical to
the field.
I mentioned the PersonnelPreparation and Development
Program.
These are funds that go touniversities to help cover the
cost of tuition and stipends forpreparing and training new
(26:03):
professionals.
Special education is a highneed area.
We have had shortages inspecial education for decades.
And so these programs trainearly childhood related service
providers and specialty areaslike working with deaf or blind
students.
And so it's really importantthat we continue to provide
these funding to make sure wehave a steady pipeline of
(26:26):
educators continuing to enterthe field and to continue to
train educators at theuniversity level.
We know that every, almostevery state has shortages of
special educators and almostevery school struggles to fill
those vacancies.
So that personnel prep programwould, would really, it would
really hurt the field if we justcombined all of that into a
formula
Zac Chase (26:45):
grant.
And so if we, if we just gave,state's a big old, not a big
old, but just a pile of money.
I think it's really helpful tothink through.
They're probably going to dothe things that they have to do.
Stephanie Melville (26:59):
Right.
Right.
Zac Chase (27:02):
And maybe not as much the things that they could or
should do.
And maybe they don'tnecessarily have the mechanisms
at the state level.
Again, handing things back tothe states that the states never
had.
Maybe they don't have amechanism at at the state level
to give specific grants tostudents who are training to be
(27:26):
special education teachers.
So I'm not saying that there'sever a danger that people don't
want to be teachers becausepeople are flocking to
universities to be teachers.
We've made it look real sexy.
But go with me here.
Maybe they're not as interestedin being teachers for a minute
and we are taking away some kindof financial support for those
(27:47):
who are are deciding to do it.
And I will say it is a deeplypersonal thing.
Every special education teacherI've ever had the privilege of
work with, it was a personaldrive.
And that's great, but notenough to feed a family or pay
your rent.
(28:07):
Right.
So maybe we should think aboutthat.
Okay.
So this is getting bad.
Yeah.
Anything else we should worryabout, Megan?
Meghan Whittaker (28:17):
So also in those part-day discretionary
grant programs are the parenttraining centers.
And IDA funds about 100 parentcenters around the country, at
least one in every single state.
So if you are a parent who islike, I think there's something
going on with my child.
I'm not really sure how tosupport them.
You could go to a parentcenter.
And those are run by thestates?
(28:47):
No, these are run by nonprofitsor other entities who compete
to get these grants to run theseparent centers.
So they are not affiliated withthe states and they are kind of
an independent organizationthat parents can seek support
(29:07):
from.
Zac Chase (29:08):
Okay, but that's the worst thing that can happen.
There's no other bad news,right?
Meghan Whittaker (29:13):
Well, the only other piece that I would
mention in the Part D programare the technical assistance
centers.
So I mentioned that theDepartment of Education has the
responsibility of overseeing andkind of monitoring state
compliance with all of theserules that IDEA puts on them.
And these technical assistancecenters are, again, kind of
(29:33):
independent entities funded bythe department to help states
with complicated things likedata collection or specific
issues like supporting studentbehavior or providing intensive
intervention.
So these are outside expertsthat create kind of a hub and
repositories of information andreally are able to work
one-on-one with states to helpthem address issues that they
(29:54):
are facing.
So, you know, we often put outguidance and policy documents as
a department, but thesetechnical assistance centers
work kind of in a closerrelationship with the states to
tackle hard problems.
So that resource would be goneand would leave states without
necessary support.
Zac Chase (30:13):
But a state could get their money and decide they
would fund the centers.
Meghan Whittaker (30:24):
They could, but when you're only getting
about 10% of the cost of specialeducation, I can't imagine you
would spend the money onanything else.
Zac Chase (30:33):
Okay.
Well, at least there are stillpeople at the U.S.
Department of Education.
When we have a problem, like ifa state or a district is out of
compliance, at least there arepeople in the Office for Civil
Rights to whom we can turn.
Well,
Meghan Whittaker (30:53):
that's another challenge.
Zac Chase (30:55):
This is as frustrating as learning about
Supreme Court decisions withJohn Becker.
But please go on.
Meghan Whittaker (31:04):
When the Department of Education executed
their reduction in force acouple of months ago now,
they...
Absolutely preserved theprogram staff who work on IDEA,
which was really nice to seethat the department is making
good on their promise to protectthis really important program.
(31:24):
Except what they did do was cutevery attorney from the Office
of General Counsel.
that had any expertise in IDEA.
So whenever we monitor states,whenever we put out, we send
them letters about our findingsor whenever we want to issue
corrective action plans, all ofthat is done in partnership with
the attorneys who are expertson IDEA.
(31:46):
And so while certainly theprogram staff can continue to
work with states and do theirmonitoring, there has been a I
guess it's a major hindrancethat now we don't have any legal
experts to kind of sign off onall of those materials and make
sure that the Department ofEducation is working within the
bounds of the law.
So I guess what you could seeis that there will be maybe less
(32:09):
monitoring, less teeth to themonitoring.
We have to see kind of wherethis goes, but a major resource
for OSERS has been removed withthe RIF affecting general
counsel.
Stephanie Melville (32:20):
It feels like if you were to take it down
to like a classroom level,asking a math teacher to teach a
history lesson, right?
You have almost like this warmbody mentality of your area of
expertise doesn't matter, right?
you can just do the job becauseyou hold the qualifications
sort of to do it.
(32:41):
Right.
Meghan Whittaker (32:43):
You're a lawyer.
You can sign this document.
Yeah, exactly.
Stephanie Melville (32:46):
Yeah.
So
Zac Chase (32:47):
like if I'm accused of murder, I'm not going to go
to a tax attorney to defend me.
Stephanie Melville (32:53):
Right.
Right.
And I just did the, the wholething that you were talking
about earlier.
Zac Chase (32:57):
I did any murders.
I just, uh,
Stephanie Melville (32:59):
Just throw that out there just for
clarification.
Zac Chase (33:02):
I should have said like, if Stephanie is accused of
murder,
Stephanie Melville (33:05):
we can't talk about me.
It's fine.
No, it just, it kind of remindsme of when I was in the
classroom and I was a mathteacher and I had students with
disabilities who had IEPs and Iwould have co-teachers or parent
educators or, you know,whatever it was.
And they'd come into myclassroom and some of them would
(33:26):
just be in tears because theycouldn't, provide support
services to the students.
And when I would go to our viceprincipal or your assistant
principal, whatever yourterminology is, I would go to
them and I would say, hey, Ineed somebody who can help my
high school students.
And the VP would say, no, whatyou need is a warm body.
(33:49):
And it's just infuriating.
Zac Chase (33:52):
Heavy sigh.
Stephanie Melville (33:53):
Yeah.
Okay.
Meghan Whittaker (33:56):
Any other great news for us, Megan?
So I think there's anotherconcern here.
When I look at, again, the verylight on details, very short
description of the prioritiesaround IDEA for this
administration, they also make astatement about how they will
maintain a base of federal fundsthat can be withdrawn from
(34:19):
states and districts who floatparental rights.
And I think there was anotherkind of line in there about
parents directing the funding,right?
So that kind of sets some redflags when I read it because,
you know, IDEA is premised onparents being a member of the
team and it clearly carves outrights for parents, right?
(34:41):
There is no part of IDEA thatisn't really heavy on making
sure parents are part of thisprocess.
But to me, this administrationis making good on their promise
to really push towards parentchoice and private schools and
vouchers.
And that worries me for a lotof reasons because currently the
(35:02):
way that they describe it,saying they're going to maintain
the parents' ability to directfunds, that's not really how IDA
works.
Right now, the way that thesystem works is that districts
have to have a continuum ofservices.
And if you're not happy or ifyour child is not able to
succeed in the setting thatthey're in, there's a whole
process to engage with thedistrict.
(35:23):
to move them to a differentsetting if appropriate.
And if it comes down to thepoint where your child needs a
private school to meet theirneeds, the district would pay
for that, right?
So there is a mechanism forchildren to attend private
schools under IDEA ifappropriate.
Parents can also take theirchildren out of public schools
and just go to a private schoolindependent of the school
(35:44):
district and pay for thatseparately.
And I worry that this move toblock grant funds will be their
attempt to give the $2,000 astudent that Zach calculated
earlier to parents to say, ifyou don't like your public
school, take your $2,000 in IDAfunding and go elsewhere.
Because not only is that nevergoing to be enough to get you
(36:08):
the kind of school you may needfor your child with a
disability, but But you do nothave the same rights under IDEA
in a private school that you doin a public school.
There is a kind of complex partof the regulation that talks
about equitable services andproportionate share of IDEA
funding.
But ultimately, what that comesdown to is that private schools
(36:30):
get a little bit of money.
provide some kind of service toall their kids, but you don't
get an IEP and you don't getFAPE if you go to a private
school.
So there's no obligation forthose private schools to even
take you if you try to show upwith your $2,000 voucher.
And if you do get in there,there's no right to FAPE, to the
IEP that you deserve or to anyof the supports that you need.
(36:50):
And we have seen historicallyin states that have voucher
programs for kids withdisabilities, A lot of kids with
disabilities get turned awaybecause the school doesn't even
want to try to support them.
And it essentially becomes acoupon for families who can
afford a private school.
And it sends every other kidwho doesn't have enough money
back into the public school withmore significant needs and not
(37:13):
enough money for the schooldistrict to pay for them.
So that is kind of my concernabout where this is going and
how it would play out if theytried to turn this into a
voucher scheme.
Stephanie Melville (37:24):
Can I rephrase what you're saying or
like revoice what you're sayingto make sure that I understand
that last little component?
So if we go into a vouchersystem and I want to send my kid
to a private school, first ofall, there's no guarantee that
that private school will acceptmy child.
Meghan Whittaker (37:45):
Correct.
Stephanie Melville (37:46):
And if my child creates enough of a quote
problem for them, that's allthey need is to say you're no
longer welcome at this school.
And so now,
Zac Chase (37:59):
sorry, I think it's also important at the beginning
at the application process, theymight look at, like, if you
bring the IEP, they might say,we actually don't have the
resources necessary to meet yourchild's needs, which would be
a, a valid point, right?
Like that is, that is, that istheir right to do and probably
better for your student to knowahead of time.
(38:21):
We don't have the resources.
We don't have an occupationaltherapist on staff, to give an
example.
So that's an okay thing to say.
I would rather know that now.
But then, yes, the otherpieces, they say, oh, we've got
the resources.
And then if the demands of yourchild for their education are
(38:42):
too high, they do have the rightto say you need to go somewhere
else because we, again, can'tmeet your needs.
Stephanie Melville (38:49):
Right.
And so then...
Because the voucher was used, Isuppose, at this private
school, that doesn't getdeposited, maybe, I suppose,
toward the public school'sbudget?
Meghan Whittaker (39:03):
Right.
You'd have to think about kidswho start in one school and go
back to another, the financiallogistics of that.
But the bigger picture, thebigger impact is...
a big number of kids withdisabilities might be leaving
the public school to go to theseprivate schools and taking
their, let's say, $2,000 withthem, which just reduces the
amount that the public schoolhas to work with in general,
right?
(39:23):
So you have an under-resourcedschool, probably left with some
of the higher-need students, andall due to the voucher system.
Zac Chase (39:32):
And we have eliminated direct funding to any
parental assistance centers ortechnical assistance centers so
that we have made sure that ifI'm a parent who's trying to
navigate that system, there'snot necessarily any federal
place that I can go to.
And we haven't necessarilycreated a crop of teachers who
want to go into specialeducation.
(39:52):
So the resources to supportthose students, whether in a
public or private school, areless.
Stephanie Melville (39:59):
Right.
And we don't have the legalsupport systems available.
to make sure that schools aredoing what they're supposed to
be doing.
Meghan Whittaker (40:05):
And I didn't touch on that in the list of
what else have they done, but...
No, you can't add more
Zac Chase (40:13):
now.
The
Meghan Whittaker (40:15):
IDA lays out a number of mechanisms for
parents who want to file acomplaint or a grievance about
their rights, whether theirchild's not getting the services
that they need or they disagreewith the school.
There's a due process system atthe state level, district and
state level, that parents canfollow.
At the federal level, though,the Department of Education
(40:36):
works directly with states aboutstate obligations.
And so the recourse for parentswho have a complainer on IDEA
is essentially to submit acomplaint to the Office for
Civil Rights.
And the Office for Civil Rightswill investigate instances of
disability discrimination at thelocal level.
And with the rifts a couple ofmonths ago, they cut the Office
(40:59):
for Civil Rights in about half.
And so there is a much smallernumber of attorneys left to work
on these cases.
And I want to say about half ofall of the complaints received
by the Office for Civil Rightsare related to disability
discrimination.
So we're not only taking awaythe parent training centers in a
block grant kind of situation,but we're really reducing the
(41:21):
recourse that parents have atthe federal level if they want
to take issue with what's goingon in their district.
Stephanie Melville (41:27):
Please tell me there's nothing left.
Meghan Whittaker (41:31):
That's all I've got on my list for today.
Zac Chase (41:33):
There's that part where they're going to take all
the puppies and just throw themin a river.
Yeah,
Stephanie Melville (41:37):
right?
Good Lord.
Meghan Whittaker (41:38):
But I really want to say, the messaging
around IDEA from the beginningof this administration has been,
we're going to protect thisprogram.
We're going to protect parentrights.
We're going to protect specialeducation and people with
disabilities.
And then all of these stepsthat they have taken right in,
On its face, this all lookslike, oh, you're preserving
IDEA.
(41:58):
You're turning it into a blockgrant, but you're preserving
IDEA at the same funding level.
And it's really not until youlook under the hood and really
think about the policy changesthat they're proposing that you
would even really get to any ofthese really concerning ideas
that are coming up.
Zac Chase (42:13):
Okay.
So everything is horrible.
Nothing is good.
It's a horrible, no good, verybad day in Australia.
Or...
Thank you so much for joiningus.
Everybody knows somebody who isor who benefited from it
(42:48):
because it's been around for 50years.
There are still things peoplecan do.
What can people do now to helpsome of our most vulnerable
children in the country?
Meghan Whittaker (42:59):
I think at the most basic level, continuing to
share stories, right?
So that you...
People realize that they knowsomebody who knows somebody
that's affected by this, right?
Making this a really human tohuman issue is important in
educating members of Congress orlocal decision makers about why
this is so important.
I think education is a firststep.
At the federal level, therehave been bills to fully fund
(43:23):
IDEA for probably decades now.
They don't always make it veryfar each congressional session,
but every year they arereintroduced and they would put
IDEA on a path to that 40% offunding that was promised.
So asking your members ofCongress to support those bills
and to help them understand whythey're so important is
something you can do at thefederal level.
Locally and at your statelevel, I think it's really
(43:45):
important to know about whetheryour state has a voucher
program.
And if not, get involved in theadvocacy to ensure that
decision makers understand whythis could be problematic and
harmful to the public schoolecosystem as a whole, and
specifically to children withdisabilities who may lose their
rights and may also be turnedaway from schools.
(44:06):
So those are a couple of stepsI think you can take in the
advocacy space, but educatingothers, helping them learn more
about this, I think is one ofthe most, the simplest things
you can do.
Zac Chase (44:18):
And reaching out to your congressperson, right?
And letting them know thismatters to you, this matters to
your family, to your niece, yournephew, that these are kids who
deserve a free and appropriatepublic education and for whom
that may be impossible withoutthis support.
I feel like I'm running an NPRtelethon right now.
(44:40):
We will, as always, when wesign off, tell you, please, you
know, Subscribe to the podcast,rate the podcast.
I would also, maybe we'll saythat's, we've done it now.
So like the, subscribe to thepodcast, rate the podcast.
But I would implore you toshare this episode with folks
who you think need to betterunderstand special education and
(45:01):
how it happens in this country.
And if you are somebody whoisn't sure how to have the
conversation, but you know yourkids or kids you care about are
impacted by this, share thisepisode so they can get a better
understanding.
Megan, Thank you for spendingthis time with us.
Thank you for helping us tounderstand these things.
We will need to talk aboutinclusion later.
Stephanie Melville (45:23):
Definitely.
Zac Chase (45:24):
We'll talk to you then.
Stephanie Melville (45:25):
Keep your inbox.
Keep an eye on your inbox,please.
Meghan Whittaker (45:28):
Thank you for having me.
This issue is so important andI will take every opportunity I
can to talk about it.
So thanks.
Stephanie Melville (45:35):
Thank you.
Zac Chase (45:37):
So for Academic Distinctions, I'm Zach Chase.
Stephanie Melville (45:40):
I'm Stephanie Melville.
Zac Chase (45:42):
Please make sure you subscribe, make sure you rate,
and share this particularepisode with folks so we can
make sure all kids have a chanceto learn.
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