August 7, 2025 • 36 mins
Zac and Stephanie welcome former U.S. Secreatary of Education John King to the show to discuss his new book Teacher by Teacher.
In this first part of the conversation, we discuss where we can find hope as public education is under attack, how we can fight for the rights of students across the country, and how we can begin vulnerable conversations with folks with whom we disagree.
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Episode Transcript
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SPEAKER_00 (00:00):
Welcome to another episode of Academic
Distinctions.
I am Zach Chase, joined byStephanie Melville.
And on this episode, a veryspecial episode of Academic
Distinctions, not like a specialepisode of Blossom.
We have former Secretary ofEducation John King with us.
He will be discussing his newbook, Teacher by Teacher, as
well as the current state ofpublic education, his thoughts,
(00:24):
his ideas, and how we can allmake a change.
Stay tuned.
Welcome to the podcast.
(00:58):
I'm going to go real personalhere.
I'm generally not a fan ofmemoirs.
Usually, I find myself saying,who are you writing for?
And I usually think, oh, they'rewriting this for themselves.
And instead of going to therapyand doing the work, they decided
to write a book.
But reading yours, and I showedyou before we started recording,
(01:18):
I showed you all the littletabs.
I didn't get that sense.
Can you tell us What led you towrite this book at this moment,
and who's it for?
SPEAKER_02 (01:28):
Yeah, yeah.
Well, first, thanks for havingme on, and I'm excited to get to
talk with you all.
So, you know, over the years,people have said to me, you
should write a book.
You know, it's a thing peoplesay.
And I've always thought, oh, Idon't really want to do that.
And so I never really took itthat seriously.
(01:48):
But then...
The Washington Post wrote apiece about my family history
and my family connecting withthe family who are direct line
descendants of the family thatenslaved my family.
And Washington Post did thisstory and a book agent reached
(02:11):
out to the Washington Postreporter and said, you should
turn this piece into a book.
And he said he was working on adifferent project and he really
wasn't ready to do a book atthat time.
He said, but you should callJohn and see if he wants to do a
book.
And so it sort of like came tome, you know, it wasn't that I
(02:32):
sought it out.
But then when there was thisopportunity to think about a
book project, immediately forme, the thing that was
fascinating most important abouta book project was to talk about
teachers and the role thatteachers played in my life.
And so the book really is aboutthat.
(02:53):
And I hope is a book that isread by young people who are
thinking about teaching, byteachers, because it's an
opportunity to say thank you.
Because I think teachers makesuch a huge difference in kids'
lives every day.
Don't hear thank you oftenenough.
(03:14):
Aren't compensated as well asthey should be.
And this book is really acelebration of the difference
that teachers make in people'slives.
SPEAKER_00 (03:26):
It came through.
(03:56):
Each of those moments in yourlife could have stood alone as
kind of a defining moment orkind of, I'm going to make this
kind of explode this moment andmake it into a book.
But each chapter is reallyanother one of those moments,
which I thought was reallyinteresting.
And the gratitude really, reallydoes come through.
So it's just a lovely, lovelybook.
SPEAKER_02 (04:18):
Thank you.
Thank you.
That makes me happy to hear
SPEAKER_01 (04:20):
that.
So I, like Zach, have foundreading this book to be
heartening in times that areDeeply disheartening.
What are you reading right now?
Books or shorter pieces to findhope in our times or maybe
distraction?
SPEAKER_02 (04:35):
Maybe more on the distraction side.
Right now I'm reading a book,All the Colors of the Dark by
Chris Whitaker.
It's sort of a mystery novel.
So it's not really an educationbook.
It's just fun reading.
interesting read that I'menjoying.
(04:59):
But one of the things that I dodraw a lot of hope from is
engaging with the work acrossthe SUNY system.
So my job now, Chancellor of theState University of New York,
and there are so manyresearchers, and it's not just
researchers, it's across highereducation institutions around
(05:21):
the country, who are doing workthat could be so transformative.
You know, whether it's work onrenewable energy that hopefully
can help us reduce the harm fromfossil fuels and take on the
consequences of climate change,or researchers who are figuring
(05:45):
out how AI could be used tobetter treat disease and to
increase the likelihood thatpeople with a disease like
cancer might be able to gettreatment that could save their
lives.
And so reading those things, ithelps you see that, yes, we have
(06:05):
a million problems, but thereare people who every day are
thinking about How do we solvethem?
And making discoveries andprogress that we should
celebrate and be excited about.
SPEAKER_01 (06:20):
It's reminiscent almost of, you know, Mr.
Rogers, look for the helpers.
That's right.
Even when things are crazy,there are still people out there
who are trying to do thetransformative work.
SPEAKER_02 (06:34):
A hundred percent.
And we know in K-12 schools allacross the country, folks are
doing amazing things.
They are changing kids' lives.
They are creating spaces thatinspire and engage.
And the biggest problem we haveis we're not very good at
(06:55):
scaling those things in K-12,right?
There are these pockets.
But Every problem we have isbeing solved somewhere by
somebody.
SPEAKER_00 (07:07):
Our last episode was a conversation about the work of
John Hattie and kind of thetrouble of...
of not considering place andcontext when we're thinking
about solutions.
So this idea of scaling doesn'tnecessarily have to mean you
scale to as many people aspossible, but scale of what is
the depth of your impact or thereplication of your impact.
(07:33):
And, and so there's that pieceof like, you're right.
Teachers are doing this allacross the country, all across
the world, um, in the face ofever more uncertain times.
What is it like to, to watchwhat's happening?
Knowing the work that you, thatyou clearly dedicated your life.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (07:51):
Look, it's heartbreaking and terrifying,
right?
Heartbreaking because you seethe human toll, right?
You see, uh, The amazingcolleagues that we all had the
opportunity to work with whocome to the department having
been teachers and principals andcome there because they want to
(08:11):
serve the public interest.
And they're treated so horribly.
And now they're losing theirjobs, which is heartbreaking for
them and their families.
It's heartbreaking because ofthe toll of the policies on
communities, right?
You know, the...
The consequences of anabandonment of the federal role
(08:36):
in education will be feltthroughout our country.
It'll be felt in K-12 schoolsthat rely on Title I funding
SPEAKER_03 (08:47):
for the
SPEAKER_02 (08:49):
services they provide to low-income students.
So when that funding is withheldor reduced, You're talking about
teacher layoffs and larger classsizes and fewer enrichment
activities and fewer AP classes.
It will be felt by the highereducation students.
(09:11):
So much of what the departmentdoes is to help people get Pell
Grants that makes collegepossible for low-income students
or help people get student loansso they can access higher
education.
Without the department, or witha much reduced department, will
people be able to get their PellGrants, their student loans?
(09:32):
And what will it mean if, as theadministration has proposed, we
slash Pell Grants?
What will that mean forAmericans' ability to get access
to opportunity?
And then it's terrifying becausewe are at risk of sliding
(09:53):
backwards you know sometimespeople say to me well can't the
states just do all the stuff andi always give people the example
of the norman rockwell paintingof ruby bridges such an iconic
image and as soon as you thinkof that that image of course you
(10:13):
you see ruby bridges there atthe center but who's around ruby
bridges u.s marshals well whyu.s marshals because Louisiana
and New Orleans did not want torespect Ruby Bridges' civil
rights.
They did not want to give RubyBridges an equitable education.
The federal role was to ensurethe protection of civil rights.
(10:37):
And so when you see Not only isthe department being dismantled,
but you see this effort toattack fundamental civil rights
protections for our students.
That's terrifying.
There's a risk of taking usbackwards to a time where
students were ignored because oftheir race or their disability
(10:58):
or their language.
So I'm very worried.
Very worried about that.
Very terrified about that.
And then ultimately terrifiedbecause if we don't prioritize
education, what is the future ofour economy, our democracy?
It's still shocking to me.
Maybe it shouldn't be.
Maybe that's naive, but it'sstill shocking to me that anyone
(11:19):
could say education should notbe a national imperative.
This didn't used to be apartisan question.
SPEAKER_00 (11:27):
Right.
The news has come out.
And I think folks who haveworked in the education sector,
education policymakers,education leaders have kind of,
you know, a lot of think piecesand editorials and op eds have
been written.
To me, it also seems as though,you know, if I if I have a
student, and I've got two kidsin school, Stephanie's got two
(11:47):
kids in school, I know you'vegot kids in school, right?
That that parents are thatgrandparents, that aunts and
uncles aren't going to see theimpact of the things that are
happening today for a few moremonths.
Now is the moment for us to beable to stop or push back on
some of what's going on.
But by the time it goes intopractice, right, by the time we
(12:08):
feel what it's like for thosefunds not to be in schools or in
states, they just won't bethere, right?
So there's almost something likedeviously– maniacally beautiful
about this, because if you weregoing to do it, you would do a
thing that nobody noticed wasgone until it was too late.
SPEAKER_02 (12:26):
Yes.
Yes.
It's like a ticking time bomb.
Right.
And I think our challenge is howdo we get folks to organize, to
convey to their electedofficials, whether it's members
of Congress or their governorsand legislators, the urgency of
standing up for publiceducation?
(12:47):
Because it's the federal attack,but you're also seeing this in
states too.
An attack on teaching the truthabout our history, the use of
private school voucher schemesto steal money from public
education.
We need folks to...
stand up, to speak up.
(13:09):
And I think you're right.
The worry is that consequencesmay seem far off in the future,
but now is the moment foraction.
SPEAKER_01 (13:18):
What are some practical steps that you might
recommend leaders and educatorsat each level, family members,
you know, even to take to dothat resistance, the dismantling
of this situation, this publicgood?
SPEAKER_02 (13:33):
Yeah.
Look, calls and letters to yourmembers of Congress still
matter.
Their staffs are diligentlycounting the calls and letters
and postcards they get.
So that kind of direct advocacystill matters.
Going to the town halls thatmembers of Congress hold and
standing up and saying, will youfight for us?
(13:57):
Will you fight for the schoolsin your congressional district?
Will you fight for the teachersand the students in your
congressional district?
Will you make sure we have theresources we need?
SPEAKER_00 (14:09):
One of my former colleagues, one of the best
social studies teachers you'llever meet, Diana Laufenberg,
every Every semester when shewas teaching government, in a
high school class we taught inPhiladelphia, one of the
assignments was students had toattend a public meeting of some
sort and write about it.
And so they went to school boardmeetings, city council, any
(14:30):
public meeting.
And one, the kids came back andthey were like, this is nutty.
That's how government works,which I think all three of us
could probably relate to.
And then the second piece wasnobody was there.
Relating to that kind of tickingtime bomb, How do we get people
out the door?
And I think the pandemic isstill kind of echoing its
(14:51):
effects is that we're just usedto not going and doing things.
SPEAKER_02 (14:56):
Well, there's, you know, I'd say there's a
long-term and a short-term.
The long-term is the work oncivic education, right?
It is saying we've got to makesure, and I was a high school
social studies teacher, we'vegot to make sure that students
are gaining both the knowledgeand the skills for civic
engagement, that theyunderstand.
how a bill becomes a law, whatthe three branches of government
(15:19):
are, who does what at thedifferent levels of federal,
state, local.
But we also need them to havethe skills to write a letter
where they effectively conveytheir concerns, to provide
cogent political testimony at apolitical event.
(15:40):
That's the long term.
In the short term, we've got toorganize like crazy.
We've got to make sure that atthe bus stop, at the playground,
we are talking about what theconsequences of these policy
changes will be and making it asconcrete for folks as possible.
(16:00):
You know, when you say Title Ior Title III or IDA, that's
inside baseball.
But if you say to folks, look,the Office for Civil Rights at
the Education Department is theplace you go if you have a child
with a disability and they'renot getting the services they
(16:20):
need.
Isn't that important?
And what will we do if we don'thave the Office for Civil Rights
to make sure those students getthe services they're entitled
to?
Or to make it that concrete.
SPEAKER_00 (16:34):
Make the national local.
Yes.
How...
Are you taking those steps inyour own life?
What are some pieces that youhave felt compelled to do to
make this work happen?
SPEAKER_02 (16:45):
I have spent a lot of time over these last six
months trying to sound thealarm.
and not just doing it myself,but trying to do it with other
people, even with unlikelypartners.
You know, I've done a number ofevents with Margaret Felix, who
was Secretary of Education forPresident George W.
(17:06):
Bush.
And Margaret and I don't agreeon everything.
You know, certainly our politicsdiffer.
But we both believe thatEducation is a national
imperative.
We both believe that the federalgovernment has a responsibility
to protect students' civilrights.
We both believe that the federalrole in education is hugely
(17:27):
important.
And I think what people see usboth delivering that message in
a bipartisan, reallynonpartisan, way, that may break
through in a different way.
As I've traveled around thecountry talking about the book,
part of the story I'm trying totell is, if not for the teachers
at PS 276 in Canarsie and MarkTwain Junior High School in
(17:49):
Coney Island, I would not bealive today.
Those are the stakes.
If I hadn't had those teachers,if they had not intervened in my
life, I would not have survivedthat period when I lost my
parents.
I'm partly telling that story tohelp people get fired up about
what public education means inpeople's everyday lives.
SPEAKER_00 (18:12):
You're speaking as a person of color.
I come at this as a queer man.
Stephanie is a woman.
And so we are three people whohave benefited from the
protections afforded to us andthe people.
So we worked in the U.S.
Department of Education, but...
but the protections that weappreciated as students kind of
unknowingly allowed us to, tomake those moves as well.
(18:35):
So it's just an, an interestingplace to be of like me, this is
about me and those like me whoare coming up.
SPEAKER_02 (18:44):
Yes.
Yes.
And don't we want to be asociety where opportunity is
available to everyone and wehave the benefits of the talents
of all people?
Why, why would we want to leaveany talent, on the sidelines.
SPEAKER_01 (19:00):
Right.
Isn't that a really, just at thecrux of education is to help
children identify their talentsand their, their strengths and
then to, to water, water thatseed, if you will, to see what
it grows into.
(19:20):
And regardless of what thatchild does, looks like, where
they come from, what assets theybring to the table that may not
be immediately perceived as anasset.
Regardless of any of that, Ifeel like education's
(19:42):
responsibility is to nurturethat child.
SPEAKER_02 (19:49):
That's exactly right.
SPEAKER_01 (19:50):
How are you talking to your own kids about what's
happening in our country rightnow?
SPEAKER_02 (19:56):
My girls are 19 and 21.
And so, as young adults, I amtrying to help them avoid
becoming cynical.
Because they grew up, not onlybecause I was in the
(20:17):
administration, but they grew upseeing President Obama, Mrs.
Obama, the Obama administrationteam, the focus on advancing the
good of society.
It's not to say that everythingthe administration did was
perfect or that everything wasperfect 10, 15 years ago.
(20:39):
Far from it.
But there was a sense that wewere moving toward progress as a
society.
And there was a sense that thatwe could have disagreement, but
still respect each other'shumanity.
(21:00):
And now...
Where did that go?
Right?
That's the thing, right?
You know, if you contrast thatmaybe, let's say, with somebody
who is in their 60s or 70s, theylook around and they say, well,
today...
compared to when they were akid, even with all the problems,
(21:23):
there's been a lot of progresson expanding the circle of
opportunity.
If you think about Ruby Bridges,what she's seen in her lifetime,
she can look back and see theprogress, but I worry that for
Gen Z, for young millennials,what they see is really
(21:47):
deterioration.
and things sliding backwards onfundamental issues of civil
rights and social justice.
And I worry that that could leadyou to sort of despair And so
with my daughters, when I'malways talking about it, it's
like, so what do we do?
(22:07):
What's our responsibilitycollectively to try to make
things better?
How do we stay engaged?
How do we get
SPEAKER_00 (22:14):
active?
Do they have answers?
Yeah.
I could imagine.
I don't know, Dad.
SPEAKER_02 (22:21):
It
SPEAKER_00 (22:23):
just seems
SPEAKER_02 (22:25):
bad.
They're both in different waystrying to figure out how to...
contribute to societal progress.
So my elder daughter justgraduated from college, she's an
actress, and she sees hercreative work, her work in the
arts, as a way to advance socialjustice.
(22:47):
And so she thinks a lot aboutrepresentation and the
significance of representationin the arts and what that can do
to move society forward.
My younger daughter just is inbetween her freshman and
sophomore years of college.
And for the summer, she'sinterning at an organization
that provides support forlow-income parents around
(23:09):
parenting strategies.
here in new york city
SPEAKER_00 (23:12):
and sounds a bit like somebody else's story in
your family
SPEAKER_02 (23:18):
but it's just it's nice that they're both they're
both in very different waystrying to figure out like how on
a micro level they can be aforce for good in the world and
you
SPEAKER_00 (23:30):
know i
SPEAKER_02 (23:30):
think as a parent that's what you hope for
SPEAKER_00 (23:32):
the choices that they've made have said we are
going to kind of join in thisfight, even in those moments of
despair and cynicism.
Yes,
SPEAKER_02 (23:42):
yes.
And I'm really proud of that.
And I'm proud that they bothare, you know, politically aware
and active and are voters.
And, you know, they areimpatient with where we are, but
they aren't ceding their agencyto try to make it better.
SPEAKER_01 (24:01):
I think that's so wonderful, so important.
How many times do we, do I, Isuppose, look around and see
young adults say like, well,there's nothing that I can do.
They are so inundated withimages of defeat right now.
(24:22):
I think that it becomes veryeasy to be worn down and
defeated.
turn to apathy almost.
Like the system is going to dowhat the system's going to do.
There's my vote doesn't matter,like all kinds of things in that
regard.
And so I think conversations andputting out there to kids that
(24:45):
are growing up in this timeright now, that there's always
something we can do and thatgetting involved and making our
voices heard, et cetera, arestill as important today, if not
potentially more important thanin the past.
It gives me a little bit ofhope.
SPEAKER_02 (25:03):
Yeah.
And let's be clear.
We have faced worse.
We have been through worse as acountry.
And we have made progressbecause people were willing to,
at great personal risk, stand upand push for change.
(25:24):
I think we stand on theirshoulders and we have a moral
responsibility to do our part.
SPEAKER_00 (25:30):
A lot has been written about what we are seeing
today being a response to folkswho saw what happened to the
Obama administration and gotfearful of losing, right?
Of losing a sense of where theylive and exist.
And I could be very flippantabout that and very cynical and
mock that, but But losing andmourning something, even if it
(25:53):
is a system that has benefitedyou at the expense of others,
there's a realness to that.
That is authentic.
It does not justify some ofwhat's being taken.
And so that response to thatmourning feels so much bigger
than maybe what we have seenbefore.
for quite some time.
You evoked the civil rights erain Vietnam, and that was a lot
(26:16):
of organization and resistancethere.
But this, for whatever reason,just feels even bigger than what
I have.
And I don't know if that istrue, and I don't know if that
is just because we are in themiddle of it right now, but
people are just showing up atparking lots and the Supreme
Court had to be like, no, youactually still need probable
cause to the executive branch.
(26:38):
Those pieces of infighting feelbigger and i think that that
civics education right that wetalked about three co-equal
branches of government and it isdifficult for me to think of an
example of a time when one ofthose branches just said you
know what we'll just see howthis plays out which is what it
(26:59):
feels like congress is doing atthis point in time so i don't
know it yes we have seen we haveseen bad things I wish we didn't
have to look back quite so farto see things that were worse,
right?
Normally, like, oh, we've seenworse.
And we stop at the civil rightsmovement.
And it's like, oh, no, actually,we have to take it farther back
(27:20):
in American history to seeworse.
But what are the conversationsyou wish we were having right
now?
And we mean that at kind of alldifferent levels.
SPEAKER_02 (27:29):
This may sound painfully naive, but I think all
human beings have immensecapacity to For good and also
for bad.
Like I sort of think aboutpeople as having like an angel
on one shoulder and a devil onthe other shoulder.
And both are part of eachperson.
And a lot depends on who leadersappeal to.
(27:54):
Are they appealing to the devilor to the angel?
And so I wish we were havingconversations that were about
speaking to that angel.
because you think about what'sabout to happen with the
Medicaid cuts, the way thatfolks are going to lose their
health care.
(28:16):
Folks are literally not going tobe able to get the treatment
that keeps them alive.
I think most Americans, if youreally sat down with them and
they understood the stakes, theywould not wish on their neighbor
or or the person down the road,that they would lose their
(28:36):
health care and die for want oftheir medication.
We have to figure out how do wehave the conversations in a way
that breaks through to thatmoral conscience.
The reason I invoked the civilrights movement is because I
think one of the powerful skillsthat Dr.
Kang and the civil rightsmovement movement exhibited was
(28:59):
this ability to appeal topeople's moral conscience and to
move people from inaction oreven apathy or even complicity
to actually actively working tomake things more just, insisting
that their elected leaders tryto make things more just.
(29:23):
So I wish we were having thoseconversations.
I wish we were saying tosomeone, telling the real
stories, saying to someone whenthe administration says that
they're going to cut funding forNIH, what that means is somebody
(29:44):
who is suffering from cancer orALS disease their likelihood of
getting the cure that could savethem is now being pushed further
off into the distance.
SPEAKER_00 (30:02):
Somebody you know, right?
It's not just somebody.
It's somebody you are relatedto, somebody you live next door
to.
That's
SPEAKER_02 (30:07):
right.
That's right.
That's right.
That's right.
You even see this on theimmigration issues.
People have strong views aboutimmigration.
Then when you say, what aboutthis person who you see every
day at...
Whether it's at school or at theworkplace, this person you see
(30:31):
every day, they're at risk.
Their mom is at risk.
Their partner is at risk.
And then people start to say,oh, well, I don't, that's not
what I meant.
I voted for this stuff, but Ididn't, I didn't mean for.
I
SPEAKER_01 (30:44):
didn't vote for that.
SPEAKER_02 (30:46):
I didn't vote for that.
I didn't mean for...
I wanted Stephanie to still havehealthcare.
I didn't...
Exactly.
Exactly.
But this, I think, is thechallenge.
And I think one of thecomplexities here is in order to
move people in that way, youhave to be willing to get
proximate.
SPEAKER_03 (31:07):
Right.
SPEAKER_02 (31:07):
You cannot do it, I don't believe, just through
30-second ads.
Right.
You have to be going door todoor.
You have to be at churches onSunday.
You have to be with folks tohave these conversations.
Even folks who are verydifferent from you, you have to
be willing to go and see themand talk to them on their front
(31:28):
porch.
And you have to be willing tohave the conversation the way
regular people talk and not likeyou're you know, a policy wonk,
although we all are, right?
Or not like you're in a lawschool seminar.
You have to have a realconversation with people.
(31:48):
And I think sometimes we're notgood at that.
And that's a missed opportunity.
SPEAKER_00 (31:54):
The word you're almost saying that I keep
waiting is vulnerable, right?
Is that these are vulnerableconversations.
Yes.
SPEAKER_01 (32:04):
Mm-hmm.
from trying to ask morequestions, being more curious.
(32:27):
So, you know, what do you meanyou didn't know they were going
to do this?
You didn't vote for that.
You absolutely voted for that.
Right.
We were trying to tell you thiswas going to happen.
Don't sit here and claimignorance, but that doesn't win
anybody over.
Right.
Shocking.
SPEAKER_00 (32:45):
Anger tends to be a little antithetical to
SPEAKER_02 (32:47):
vulnerability.
UNKNOWN (32:50):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (32:51):
And part of that is also being willing to
acknowledge people's pain.
That folks who are scared thattheir kids will not have as good
a life as they did are upsetabout it and are upset that
their government isn't, in theirview, doing anything about it.
SPEAKER_03 (33:14):
And
SPEAKER_02 (33:15):
we've got to acknowledge that pain and that
fear.
SPEAKER_03 (33:18):
And
SPEAKER_02 (33:19):
not just lecture to folks.
SPEAKER_01 (33:20):
We just talked a little bit about a lot of dark
stuff, or a lot of bit aboutsome dark stuff.
Where do you see hope right now?
How can listeners build on thathope?
SPEAKER_02 (33:32):
Look, one of the things I love about my job and
really the work that I've donethroughout my career is I get to
spend time with young people.
And to me, young people are asource of tremendous hope
because they understand arecreative.
They are willing to askquestions that maybe older folks
(33:55):
don't ask anymore.
They're willing to press on whyis it that way?
Does it have to be that way?
Could it be different?
How could it be different?
I'll give you one example frommy work.
We launched this initiativecalled the Empire State Service
Corps.
And the idea was we have 500SUNY students who would be paid
(34:18):
to do 300 hours a year of publicservice.
They could tutor in K-12schools.
They could be peer mental healthcounselors.
They could work on food andhousing insecurity on their
campus or in their community.
And we had 500 slots.
maybe three, four weeks, we had2,000 applications for those 500
(34:42):
sites.
Wow.
SPEAKER_03 (34:43):
Oh, wow.
SPEAKER_02 (34:43):
So many of our students want to serve.
They want to make a difference.
And spending time with thestudents who are part of that
Empire State Service Corps, it'sso inspiring and makes you feel
like we're going to be okaybecause those young people,
those are our future leaders andthey are committed to knitting
(35:06):
the our communities together.
SPEAKER_00 (35:09):
That's pretty good.
Yeah.
That's a good one.
I didn't think you were going tobe able to bring us back from
kind of the dark side of that,but you really nailed it.
SPEAKER_01 (35:19):
I'll take it.
Thank you so much for joining ustoday on this episode of
Academic Distinctions.
As always, we hope that youenjoyed today's episode and that
you'll share it.
But don't forget to join us nextweek for the conclusion of this
episode.
It's a real ray of sunshine andyou won't want to miss it.
(35:40):
Follow us on Instagram atacademicdistinctionspod.
Find us on Blue Sky atfixingschools or find us on
Facebook.
As always, your call to actionis to share the podcast, like us
and subscribe.
You can find us online atacademicdistinctions.com.
And if you have a question forthe pod or a topic you'd like us
to dig into, email us at mail atacademicdistinctions.com.
(36:03):
Until next week, friends, thispodcast is underwritten by the
Federation of AmericanScientists.
Find out more at FAS.org.
Welcome to another episode of Academic
Distinctions.
I am Zach Chase, joined byStephanie Melville.
And on this episode, a veryspecial episode of Academic
Distinctions, not like a specialepisode of Blossom.
We have former Secretary ofEducation John King with us.
He will be discussing his newbook, Teacher by Teacher, as
well as the current state ofpublic education, his thoughts,
(00:24):
his ideas, and how we can allmake a change.
Stay tuned.
Welcome to the podcast.
(00:58):
I'm going to go real personalhere.
I'm generally not a fan ofmemoirs.
Usually, I find myself saying,who are you writing for?
And I usually think, oh, they'rewriting this for themselves.
And instead of going to therapyand doing the work, they decided
to write a book.
But reading yours, and I showedyou before we started recording,
(01:18):
I showed you all the littletabs.
I didn't get that sense.
Can you tell us What led you towrite this book at this moment,
and who's it for?
SPEAKER_02 (01:28):
Yeah, yeah.
Well, first, thanks for havingme on, and I'm excited to get to
talk with you all.
So, you know, over the years,people have said to me, you
should write a book.
You know, it's a thing peoplesay.
And I've always thought, oh, Idon't really want to do that.
And so I never really took itthat seriously.
(01:48):
But then...
The Washington Post wrote apiece about my family history
and my family connecting withthe family who are direct line
descendants of the family thatenslaved my family.
And Washington Post did thisstory and a book agent reached
(02:11):
out to the Washington Postreporter and said, you should
turn this piece into a book.
And he said he was working on adifferent project and he really
wasn't ready to do a book atthat time.
He said, but you should callJohn and see if he wants to do a
book.
And so it sort of like came tome, you know, it wasn't that I
(02:32):
sought it out.
But then when there was thisopportunity to think about a
book project, immediately forme, the thing that was
fascinating most important abouta book project was to talk about
teachers and the role thatteachers played in my life.
And so the book really is aboutthat.
(02:53):
And I hope is a book that isread by young people who are
thinking about teaching, byteachers, because it's an
opportunity to say thank you.
Because I think teachers makesuch a huge difference in kids'
lives every day.
Don't hear thank you oftenenough.
(03:14):
Aren't compensated as well asthey should be.
And this book is really acelebration of the difference
that teachers make in people'slives.
SPEAKER_00 (03:26):
It came through.
(03:56):
Each of those moments in yourlife could have stood alone as
kind of a defining moment orkind of, I'm going to make this
kind of explode this moment andmake it into a book.
But each chapter is reallyanother one of those moments,
which I thought was reallyinteresting.
And the gratitude really, reallydoes come through.
So it's just a lovely, lovelybook.
SPEAKER_02 (04:18):
Thank you.
Thank you.
That makes me happy to hear
SPEAKER_01 (04:20):
that.
So I, like Zach, have foundreading this book to be
heartening in times that areDeeply disheartening.
What are you reading right now?
Books or shorter pieces to findhope in our times or maybe
distraction?
SPEAKER_02 (04:35):
Maybe more on the distraction side.
Right now I'm reading a book,All the Colors of the Dark by
Chris Whitaker.
It's sort of a mystery novel.
So it's not really an educationbook.
It's just fun reading.
interesting read that I'menjoying.
(04:59):
But one of the things that I dodraw a lot of hope from is
engaging with the work acrossthe SUNY system.
So my job now, Chancellor of theState University of New York,
and there are so manyresearchers, and it's not just
researchers, it's across highereducation institutions around
(05:21):
the country, who are doing workthat could be so transformative.
You know, whether it's work onrenewable energy that hopefully
can help us reduce the harm fromfossil fuels and take on the
consequences of climate change,or researchers who are figuring
(05:45):
out how AI could be used tobetter treat disease and to
increase the likelihood thatpeople with a disease like
cancer might be able to gettreatment that could save their
lives.
And so reading those things, ithelps you see that, yes, we have
(06:05):
a million problems, but thereare people who every day are
thinking about How do we solvethem?
And making discoveries andprogress that we should
celebrate and be excited about.
SPEAKER_01 (06:20):
It's reminiscent almost of, you know, Mr.
Rogers, look for the helpers.
That's right.
Even when things are crazy,there are still people out there
who are trying to do thetransformative work.
SPEAKER_02 (06:34):
A hundred percent.
And we know in K-12 schools allacross the country, folks are
doing amazing things.
They are changing kids' lives.
They are creating spaces thatinspire and engage.
And the biggest problem we haveis we're not very good at
(06:55):
scaling those things in K-12,right?
There are these pockets.
But Every problem we have isbeing solved somewhere by
somebody.
SPEAKER_00 (07:07):
Our last episode was a conversation about the work of
John Hattie and kind of thetrouble of...
of not considering place andcontext when we're thinking
about solutions.
So this idea of scaling doesn'tnecessarily have to mean you
scale to as many people aspossible, but scale of what is
the depth of your impact or thereplication of your impact.
(07:33):
And, and so there's that pieceof like, you're right.
Teachers are doing this allacross the country, all across
the world, um, in the face ofever more uncertain times.
What is it like to, to watchwhat's happening?
Knowing the work that you, thatyou clearly dedicated your life.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (07:51):
Look, it's heartbreaking and terrifying,
right?
Heartbreaking because you seethe human toll, right?
You see, uh, The amazingcolleagues that we all had the
opportunity to work with whocome to the department having
been teachers and principals andcome there because they want to
(08:11):
serve the public interest.
And they're treated so horribly.
And now they're losing theirjobs, which is heartbreaking for
them and their families.
It's heartbreaking because ofthe toll of the policies on
communities, right?
You know, the...
The consequences of anabandonment of the federal role
(08:36):
in education will be feltthroughout our country.
It'll be felt in K-12 schoolsthat rely on Title I funding
SPEAKER_03 (08:47):
for the
SPEAKER_02 (08:49):
services they provide to low-income students.
So when that funding is withheldor reduced, You're talking about
teacher layoffs and larger classsizes and fewer enrichment
activities and fewer AP classes.
It will be felt by the highereducation students.
(09:11):
So much of what the departmentdoes is to help people get Pell
Grants that makes collegepossible for low-income students
or help people get student loansso they can access higher
education.
Without the department, or witha much reduced department, will
people be able to get their PellGrants, their student loans?
(09:32):
And what will it mean if, as theadministration has proposed, we
slash Pell Grants?
What will that mean forAmericans' ability to get access
to opportunity?
And then it's terrifying becausewe are at risk of sliding
(09:53):
backwards you know sometimespeople say to me well can't the
states just do all the stuff andi always give people the example
of the norman rockwell paintingof ruby bridges such an iconic
image and as soon as you thinkof that that image of course you
(10:13):
you see ruby bridges there atthe center but who's around ruby
bridges u.s marshals well whyu.s marshals because Louisiana
and New Orleans did not want torespect Ruby Bridges' civil
rights.
They did not want to give RubyBridges an equitable education.
The federal role was to ensurethe protection of civil rights.
(10:37):
And so when you see Not only isthe department being dismantled,
but you see this effort toattack fundamental civil rights
protections for our students.
That's terrifying.
There's a risk of taking usbackwards to a time where
students were ignored because oftheir race or their disability
(10:58):
or their language.
So I'm very worried.
Very worried about that.
Very terrified about that.
And then ultimately terrifiedbecause if we don't prioritize
education, what is the future ofour economy, our democracy?
It's still shocking to me.
Maybe it shouldn't be.
Maybe that's naive, but it'sstill shocking to me that anyone
(11:19):
could say education should notbe a national imperative.
This didn't used to be apartisan question.
SPEAKER_00 (11:27):
Right.
The news has come out.
And I think folks who haveworked in the education sector,
education policymakers,education leaders have kind of,
you know, a lot of think piecesand editorials and op eds have
been written.
To me, it also seems as though,you know, if I if I have a
student, and I've got two kidsin school, Stephanie's got two
(11:47):
kids in school, I know you'vegot kids in school, right?
That that parents are thatgrandparents, that aunts and
uncles aren't going to see theimpact of the things that are
happening today for a few moremonths.
Now is the moment for us to beable to stop or push back on
some of what's going on.
But by the time it goes intopractice, right, by the time we
(12:08):
feel what it's like for thosefunds not to be in schools or in
states, they just won't bethere, right?
So there's almost something likedeviously– maniacally beautiful
about this, because if you weregoing to do it, you would do a
thing that nobody noticed wasgone until it was too late.
SPEAKER_02 (12:26):
Yes.
Yes.
It's like a ticking time bomb.
Right.
And I think our challenge is howdo we get folks to organize, to
convey to their electedofficials, whether it's members
of Congress or their governorsand legislators, the urgency of
standing up for publiceducation?
(12:47):
Because it's the federal attack,but you're also seeing this in
states too.
An attack on teaching the truthabout our history, the use of
private school voucher schemesto steal money from public
education.
We need folks to...
stand up, to speak up.
(13:09):
And I think you're right.
The worry is that consequencesmay seem far off in the future,
but now is the moment foraction.
SPEAKER_01 (13:18):
What are some practical steps that you might
recommend leaders and educatorsat each level, family members,
you know, even to take to dothat resistance, the dismantling
of this situation, this publicgood?
SPEAKER_02 (13:33):
Yeah.
Look, calls and letters to yourmembers of Congress still
matter.
Their staffs are diligentlycounting the calls and letters
and postcards they get.
So that kind of direct advocacystill matters.
Going to the town halls thatmembers of Congress hold and
standing up and saying, will youfight for us?
(13:57):
Will you fight for the schoolsin your congressional district?
Will you fight for the teachersand the students in your
congressional district?
Will you make sure we have theresources we need?
SPEAKER_00 (14:09):
One of my former colleagues, one of the best
social studies teachers you'llever meet, Diana Laufenberg,
every Every semester when shewas teaching government, in a
high school class we taught inPhiladelphia, one of the
assignments was students had toattend a public meeting of some
sort and write about it.
And so they went to school boardmeetings, city council, any
(14:30):
public meeting.
And one, the kids came back andthey were like, this is nutty.
That's how government works,which I think all three of us
could probably relate to.
And then the second piece wasnobody was there.
Relating to that kind of tickingtime bomb, How do we get people
out the door?
And I think the pandemic isstill kind of echoing its
(14:51):
effects is that we're just usedto not going and doing things.
SPEAKER_02 (14:56):
Well, there's, you know, I'd say there's a
long-term and a short-term.
The long-term is the work oncivic education, right?
It is saying we've got to makesure, and I was a high school
social studies teacher, we'vegot to make sure that students
are gaining both the knowledgeand the skills for civic
engagement, that theyunderstand.
how a bill becomes a law, whatthe three branches of government
(15:19):
are, who does what at thedifferent levels of federal,
state, local.
But we also need them to havethe skills to write a letter
where they effectively conveytheir concerns, to provide
cogent political testimony at apolitical event.
(15:40):
That's the long term.
In the short term, we've got toorganize like crazy.
We've got to make sure that atthe bus stop, at the playground,
we are talking about what theconsequences of these policy
changes will be and making it asconcrete for folks as possible.
(16:00):
You know, when you say Title Ior Title III or IDA, that's
inside baseball.
But if you say to folks, look,the Office for Civil Rights at
the Education Department is theplace you go if you have a child
with a disability and they'renot getting the services they
(16:20):
need.
Isn't that important?
And what will we do if we don'thave the Office for Civil Rights
to make sure those students getthe services they're entitled
to?
Or to make it that concrete.
SPEAKER_00 (16:34):
Make the national local.
Yes.
How...
Are you taking those steps inyour own life?
What are some pieces that youhave felt compelled to do to
make this work happen?
SPEAKER_02 (16:45):
I have spent a lot of time over these last six
months trying to sound thealarm.
and not just doing it myself,but trying to do it with other
people, even with unlikelypartners.
You know, I've done a number ofevents with Margaret Felix, who
was Secretary of Education forPresident George W.
(17:06):
Bush.
And Margaret and I don't agreeon everything.
You know, certainly our politicsdiffer.
But we both believe thatEducation is a national
imperative.
We both believe that the federalgovernment has a responsibility
to protect students' civilrights.
We both believe that the federalrole in education is hugely
(17:27):
important.
And I think what people see usboth delivering that message in
a bipartisan, reallynonpartisan, way, that may break
through in a different way.
As I've traveled around thecountry talking about the book,
part of the story I'm trying totell is, if not for the teachers
at PS 276 in Canarsie and MarkTwain Junior High School in
(17:49):
Coney Island, I would not bealive today.
Those are the stakes.
If I hadn't had those teachers,if they had not intervened in my
life, I would not have survivedthat period when I lost my
parents.
I'm partly telling that story tohelp people get fired up about
what public education means inpeople's everyday lives.
SPEAKER_00 (18:12):
You're speaking as a person of color.
I come at this as a queer man.
Stephanie is a woman.
And so we are three people whohave benefited from the
protections afforded to us andthe people.
So we worked in the U.S.
Department of Education, but...
but the protections that weappreciated as students kind of
unknowingly allowed us to, tomake those moves as well.
(18:35):
So it's just an, an interestingplace to be of like me, this is
about me and those like me whoare coming up.
SPEAKER_02 (18:44):
Yes.
Yes.
And don't we want to be asociety where opportunity is
available to everyone and wehave the benefits of the talents
of all people?
Why, why would we want to leaveany talent, on the sidelines.
SPEAKER_01 (19:00):
Right.
Isn't that a really, just at thecrux of education is to help
children identify their talentsand their, their strengths and
then to, to water, water thatseed, if you will, to see what
it grows into.
(19:20):
And regardless of what thatchild does, looks like, where
they come from, what assets theybring to the table that may not
be immediately perceived as anasset.
Regardless of any of that, Ifeel like education's
(19:42):
responsibility is to nurturethat child.
SPEAKER_02 (19:49):
That's exactly right.
SPEAKER_01 (19:50):
How are you talking to your own kids about what's
happening in our country rightnow?
SPEAKER_02 (19:56):
My girls are 19 and 21.
And so, as young adults, I amtrying to help them avoid
becoming cynical.
Because they grew up, not onlybecause I was in the
(20:17):
administration, but they grew upseeing President Obama, Mrs.
Obama, the Obama administrationteam, the focus on advancing the
good of society.
It's not to say that everythingthe administration did was
perfect or that everything wasperfect 10, 15 years ago.
(20:39):
Far from it.
But there was a sense that wewere moving toward progress as a
society.
And there was a sense that thatwe could have disagreement, but
still respect each other'shumanity.
(21:00):
And now...
Where did that go?
Right?
That's the thing, right?
You know, if you contrast thatmaybe, let's say, with somebody
who is in their 60s or 70s, theylook around and they say, well,
today...
compared to when they were akid, even with all the problems,
(21:23):
there's been a lot of progresson expanding the circle of
opportunity.
If you think about Ruby Bridges,what she's seen in her lifetime,
she can look back and see theprogress, but I worry that for
Gen Z, for young millennials,what they see is really
(21:47):
deterioration.
and things sliding backwards onfundamental issues of civil
rights and social justice.
And I worry that that could leadyou to sort of despair And so
with my daughters, when I'malways talking about it, it's
like, so what do we do?
(22:07):
What's our responsibilitycollectively to try to make
things better?
How do we stay engaged?
How do we get
SPEAKER_00 (22:14):
active?
Do they have answers?
Yeah.
I could imagine.
I don't know, Dad.
SPEAKER_02 (22:21):
It
SPEAKER_00 (22:23):
just seems
SPEAKER_02 (22:25):
bad.
They're both in different waystrying to figure out how to...
contribute to societal progress.
So my elder daughter justgraduated from college, she's an
actress, and she sees hercreative work, her work in the
arts, as a way to advance socialjustice.
(22:47):
And so she thinks a lot aboutrepresentation and the
significance of representationin the arts and what that can do
to move society forward.
My younger daughter just is inbetween her freshman and
sophomore years of college.
And for the summer, she'sinterning at an organization
that provides support forlow-income parents around
(23:09):
parenting strategies.
here in new york city
SPEAKER_00 (23:12):
and sounds a bit like somebody else's story in
your family
SPEAKER_02 (23:18):
but it's just it's nice that they're both they're
both in very different waystrying to figure out like how on
a micro level they can be aforce for good in the world and
you
SPEAKER_00 (23:30):
know i
SPEAKER_02 (23:30):
think as a parent that's what you hope for
SPEAKER_00 (23:32):
the choices that they've made have said we are
going to kind of join in thisfight, even in those moments of
despair and cynicism.
Yes,
SPEAKER_02 (23:42):
yes.
And I'm really proud of that.
And I'm proud that they bothare, you know, politically aware
and active and are voters.
And, you know, they areimpatient with where we are, but
they aren't ceding their agencyto try to make it better.
SPEAKER_01 (24:01):
I think that's so wonderful, so important.
How many times do we, do I, Isuppose, look around and see
young adults say like, well,there's nothing that I can do.
They are so inundated withimages of defeat right now.
(24:22):
I think that it becomes veryeasy to be worn down and
defeated.
turn to apathy almost.
Like the system is going to dowhat the system's going to do.
There's my vote doesn't matter,like all kinds of things in that
regard.
And so I think conversations andputting out there to kids that
(24:45):
are growing up in this timeright now, that there's always
something we can do and thatgetting involved and making our
voices heard, et cetera, arestill as important today, if not
potentially more important thanin the past.
It gives me a little bit ofhope.
SPEAKER_02 (25:03):
Yeah.
And let's be clear.
We have faced worse.
We have been through worse as acountry.
And we have made progressbecause people were willing to,
at great personal risk, stand upand push for change.
(25:24):
I think we stand on theirshoulders and we have a moral
responsibility to do our part.
SPEAKER_00 (25:30):
A lot has been written about what we are seeing
today being a response to folkswho saw what happened to the
Obama administration and gotfearful of losing, right?
Of losing a sense of where theylive and exist.
And I could be very flippantabout that and very cynical and
mock that, but But losing andmourning something, even if it
(25:53):
is a system that has benefitedyou at the expense of others,
there's a realness to that.
That is authentic.
It does not justify some ofwhat's being taken.
And so that response to thatmourning feels so much bigger
than maybe what we have seenbefore.
for quite some time.
You evoked the civil rights erain Vietnam, and that was a lot
(26:16):
of organization and resistancethere.
But this, for whatever reason,just feels even bigger than what
I have.
And I don't know if that istrue, and I don't know if that
is just because we are in themiddle of it right now, but
people are just showing up atparking lots and the Supreme
Court had to be like, no, youactually still need probable
cause to the executive branch.
(26:38):
Those pieces of infighting feelbigger and i think that that
civics education right that wetalked about three co-equal
branches of government and it isdifficult for me to think of an
example of a time when one ofthose branches just said you
know what we'll just see howthis plays out which is what it
(26:59):
feels like congress is doing atthis point in time so i don't
know it yes we have seen we haveseen bad things I wish we didn't
have to look back quite so farto see things that were worse,
right?
Normally, like, oh, we've seenworse.
And we stop at the civil rightsmovement.
And it's like, oh, no, actually,we have to take it farther back
(27:20):
in American history to seeworse.
But what are the conversationsyou wish we were having right
now?
And we mean that at kind of alldifferent levels.
SPEAKER_02 (27:29):
This may sound painfully naive, but I think all
human beings have immensecapacity to For good and also
for bad.
Like I sort of think aboutpeople as having like an angel
on one shoulder and a devil onthe other shoulder.
And both are part of eachperson.
And a lot depends on who leadersappeal to.
(27:54):
Are they appealing to the devilor to the angel?
And so I wish we were havingconversations that were about
speaking to that angel.
because you think about what'sabout to happen with the
Medicaid cuts, the way thatfolks are going to lose their
health care.
(28:16):
Folks are literally not going tobe able to get the treatment
that keeps them alive.
I think most Americans, if youreally sat down with them and
they understood the stakes, theywould not wish on their neighbor
or or the person down the road,that they would lose their
(28:36):
health care and die for want oftheir medication.
We have to figure out how do wehave the conversations in a way
that breaks through to thatmoral conscience.
The reason I invoked the civilrights movement is because I
think one of the powerful skillsthat Dr.
Kang and the civil rightsmovement movement exhibited was
(28:59):
this ability to appeal topeople's moral conscience and to
move people from inaction oreven apathy or even complicity
to actually actively working tomake things more just, insisting
that their elected leaders tryto make things more just.
(29:23):
So I wish we were having thoseconversations.
I wish we were saying tosomeone, telling the real
stories, saying to someone whenthe administration says that
they're going to cut funding forNIH, what that means is somebody
(29:44):
who is suffering from cancer orALS disease their likelihood of
getting the cure that could savethem is now being pushed further
off into the distance.
SPEAKER_00 (30:02):
Somebody you know, right?
It's not just somebody.
It's somebody you are relatedto, somebody you live next door
to.
That's
SPEAKER_02 (30:07):
right.
That's right.
That's right.
That's right.
You even see this on theimmigration issues.
People have strong views aboutimmigration.
Then when you say, what aboutthis person who you see every
day at...
Whether it's at school or at theworkplace, this person you see
(30:31):
every day, they're at risk.
Their mom is at risk.
Their partner is at risk.
And then people start to say,oh, well, I don't, that's not
what I meant.
I voted for this stuff, but Ididn't, I didn't mean for.
I
SPEAKER_01 (30:44):
didn't vote for that.
SPEAKER_02 (30:46):
I didn't vote for that.
I didn't mean for...
I wanted Stephanie to still havehealthcare.
I didn't...
Exactly.
Exactly.
But this, I think, is thechallenge.
And I think one of thecomplexities here is in order to
move people in that way, youhave to be willing to get
proximate.
SPEAKER_03 (31:07):
Right.
SPEAKER_02 (31:07):
You cannot do it, I don't believe, just through
30-second ads.
Right.
You have to be going door todoor.
You have to be at churches onSunday.
You have to be with folks tohave these conversations.
Even folks who are verydifferent from you, you have to
be willing to go and see themand talk to them on their front
(31:28):
porch.
And you have to be willing tohave the conversation the way
regular people talk and not likeyou're you know, a policy wonk,
although we all are, right?
Or not like you're in a lawschool seminar.
You have to have a realconversation with people.
(31:48):
And I think sometimes we're notgood at that.
And that's a missed opportunity.
SPEAKER_00 (31:54):
The word you're almost saying that I keep
waiting is vulnerable, right?
Is that these are vulnerableconversations.
Yes.
SPEAKER_01 (32:04):
Mm-hmm.
from trying to ask morequestions, being more curious.
(32:27):
So, you know, what do you meanyou didn't know they were going
to do this?
You didn't vote for that.
You absolutely voted for that.
Right.
We were trying to tell you thiswas going to happen.
Don't sit here and claimignorance, but that doesn't win
anybody over.
Right.
Shocking.
SPEAKER_00 (32:45):
Anger tends to be a little antithetical to
SPEAKER_02 (32:47):
vulnerability.
UNKNOWN (32:50):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (32:51):
And part of that is also being willing to
acknowledge people's pain.
That folks who are scared thattheir kids will not have as good
a life as they did are upsetabout it and are upset that
their government isn't, in theirview, doing anything about it.
SPEAKER_03 (33:14):
And
SPEAKER_02 (33:15):
we've got to acknowledge that pain and that
fear.
SPEAKER_03 (33:18):
And
SPEAKER_02 (33:19):
not just lecture to folks.
SPEAKER_01 (33:20):
We just talked a little bit about a lot of dark
stuff, or a lot of bit aboutsome dark stuff.
Where do you see hope right now?
How can listeners build on thathope?
SPEAKER_02 (33:32):
Look, one of the things I love about my job and
really the work that I've donethroughout my career is I get to
spend time with young people.
And to me, young people are asource of tremendous hope
because they understand arecreative.
They are willing to askquestions that maybe older folks
(33:55):
don't ask anymore.
They're willing to press on whyis it that way?
Does it have to be that way?
Could it be different?
How could it be different?
I'll give you one example frommy work.
We launched this initiativecalled the Empire State Service
Corps.
And the idea was we have 500SUNY students who would be paid
(34:18):
to do 300 hours a year of publicservice.
They could tutor in K-12schools.
They could be peer mental healthcounselors.
They could work on food andhousing insecurity on their
campus or in their community.
And we had 500 slots.
maybe three, four weeks, we had2,000 applications for those 500
(34:42):
sites.
Wow.
SPEAKER_03 (34:43):
Oh, wow.
SPEAKER_02 (34:43):
So many of our students want to serve.
They want to make a difference.
And spending time with thestudents who are part of that
Empire State Service Corps, it'sso inspiring and makes you feel
like we're going to be okaybecause those young people,
those are our future leaders andthey are committed to knitting
(35:06):
the our communities together.
SPEAKER_00 (35:09):
That's pretty good.
Yeah.
That's a good one.
I didn't think you were going tobe able to bring us back from
kind of the dark side of that,but you really nailed it.
SPEAKER_01 (35:19):
I'll take it.
Thank you so much for joining ustoday on this episode of
Academic Distinctions.
As always, we hope that youenjoyed today's episode and that
you'll share it.
But don't forget to join us nextweek for the conclusion of this
episode.
It's a real ray of sunshine andyou won't want to miss it.
(35:40):
Follow us on Instagram atacademicdistinctionspod.
Find us on Blue Sky atfixingschools or find us on
Facebook.
As always, your call to actionis to share the podcast, like us
and subscribe.
You can find us online atacademicdistinctions.com.
And if you have a question forthe pod or a topic you'd like us
to dig into, email us at mail atacademicdistinctions.com.
(36:03):
Until next week, friends, thispodcast is underwritten by the
Federation of AmericanScientists.
Find out more at FAS.org.
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