August 13, 2025 • 14 mins
In this conclusion of our conversation with former U.S. Secretary of Education John King, we ask how we can build community and conversations with folks with whom we feel we have nothing in common.
Secretary King offers his example of reconciling with the decedents of those who enslaved his ancestors.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_00 (00:00):
Hi, I'm Zach Chase and welcome back to Academic
Distinctions.
Oftentimes, we will edit thingsdown to get to a certain spot.
(00:24):
We spent an hour talking to thesecretary, and we couldn't tear
it down.
This second half is as good orbetter than the last episode,
and we think you'll agree.
Enjoy.
At the end of the book, as youmentioned, your family...
(00:46):
meets with the family of thosewho descended from the people
who enslaved your ancestors.
And that could have been wherethe story ended.
And I think what was so powerfulfor me as a reader was it wasn't
just we want to go there and seethis thing and have a better
understanding of our family'shistory.
(01:06):
But you write about the factthat there is a kind of
reconciliation and that there isa continued communication with
that family.
kind of America's greatest sin.
And you met and sat and sharedtime with these people and found
reconciliation.
I guess I want to start with notkind of how do other folks do
(01:28):
that.
How did you do that?
How did you kind of set asidewhat I would imagine to be a
great deal of pain and anger andAnd maybe you didn't set it
aside.
I'm just putting words into yourmouth now.
So how did you approach thatconversation before we kind of
think through how others mightconnect with those who are
different?
SPEAKER_02 (01:49):
Yeah, well, let me tell you the context.
When I was secretary, I wasinvited to give the commencement
address, University of MarylandEastern Shore, an HBCU from
which my grandmother graduatedin 1894.
And...
In preparation for a potentialspeech there, I started doing
this family research project.
(02:10):
A friend of a friend who was agenealogist for the Schomburg,
the part of the New York CityPublic Library that works on
African-American history,volunteered to help with the
project.
And one night I got an emailfrom her and she says, I found
the place where yourgreat-grandfather, now think
about that, we're talking aboutRuby Bridge is still alive.
(02:31):
My great-grandfather, there'ssome kid who's being babysat
right now by theirgreat-grandfather.
That's how far we are from thatinstitution, institution of
slavery.
So found the place wheregreat-grandfather was enslaved.
In fact, the cabin that he livedin as an enslaved person is
still standing on the property.
The property is owned by thefamily that are direct line
(02:53):
descendants of the family thatenslaved your family.
And the property is just 25miles from your house.
SPEAKER_03 (02:59):
Oh, my gosh.
SPEAKER_02 (03:02):
So then we had this whole family conversation.
What do you do with that, right?
Yeah.
Do you call ahead?
Do you send an email?
How do you open thisconversation?
My cousin was visiting theSmithsonian, the
African-American History Museum,and she just left, and she was
like, I need to see this place.
So she just went and knocked onthe door and said, I'm Jan King
(03:24):
Robinson.
My people were enslaved here.
And that began this journey.
And I will say that the family,the Becker family, they were
incredibly open.
And that's an important piece.
And I give them a lot of credit.
They were very open to buildinga relationship with us.
And our family and their family,we are friends.
(03:45):
We have built a realrelationship.
relationship, but we've had thehard conversations.
Sometimes they wereuncomfortable conversations.
You know, one of the examples Igive in the book is they said to
us at one point, we hope ourpeople were not cruel to your
people.
And of course, I knew what theymeant.
You know, we hope our ancestorsdidn't torture your ancestors.
(04:08):
But of course, slavery istorture.
And they were cruel becauseslavery is cruel.
And that was a difficultconversation.
I think it was difficult forthem to hear, to think about
their ancestors in that context.
SPEAKER_00 (04:24):
But I also, you know, it also
SPEAKER_02 (04:26):
pushed
SPEAKER_00 (04:27):
us.
When they said that, right?
Because I felt angry reading it.
And it is not me and it is notmy story.
And you are already puttingyourself in a very vulnerable
place.
And so are they, right?
SPEAKER_02 (04:39):
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (04:40):
What was your response?
How did you hear that?
And then did you need to collectyourself?
Because I got angry.
I was angry again as you justtold the story.
So I'm imagining that some angeris there.
SPEAKER_02 (04:57):
Yeah, I guess.
But I'm not necessarily angry atthem.
I'm angry at how do we organizeourselves so that these truly
lovely, lovely people.
Growing up in Montgomery County,Maryland, this is a school
system that prides itself oninclusivity, right?
(05:20):
How did they come through thateducational experience, that
life journey, and not havegrappled more fully with the
institution of slavery?
So I don't blame them, but I doquestion our refusal as a
(05:42):
society to do the work.
In Germany, the homes that weretaken from Jewish families in
the Holocaust have plaques onthem to say the name of the
family that lived there.
Here, we still have the statuesof Confederate generals who were
(06:07):
defending the institution ofslavery.
So the thing I was angry aboutis like, how did we get here?
But to their credit, they wereopen to the conversation and to
learning.
And they also, I think, helpedme understand the complexity of
(06:32):
how one thinks about one'sancestors.
Because they're your people.
You open up that photo album andyou see this grainy photo from
the 19th century.
You're
SPEAKER_00 (06:49):
like, that's my nose.
Then
SPEAKER_02 (06:50):
you have to grapple with what their ancestors were a
part of.
That's hard.
I think I've learned...
some more perspective around howhard that is.
SPEAKER_00 (07:10):
I want to name a thing that's in there that I
think is not at all surprisingto me, but that you are
approaching this as a teachermight when they ask a question
and you didn't, it sounds likeyou weren't expecting them to
have all the words exactly.
Like there's a, there's aforgiveness of like, Oh, you're
working towards something.
SPEAKER_01 (07:27):
And I,
SPEAKER_00 (07:29):
and I don't expect you to have the language, right.
But you showed up To be inlearning with one another, not
in community, but in learningwith one another, and that that
is inherently going to have somemistakes along the way, which I
would guess is part of thatlarger answer to what can people
practically do to connect withthose?
(07:51):
with whom they feel they havenothing.
Nobody's gonna write me and say,hey, we found your ancestors.
The majority of people are notgonna have a Washington Post
story that leads us down thisroad.
So what are some pieces that youhope your children do?
You're living that example.
But how might we do that to makethose connections more viable
(08:14):
and practical?
SPEAKER_02 (08:15):
I mean, two things.
One, and Stephanie reallycaptured this with the idea of
being curious.
We don't always teach youngpeople the power of listening.
You know, and I think aboutcivic education as we were
talking about earlier.
I think one of the skills ofcivic education is listening to
understand rather than listeningto prepare your rebuttal.
(08:36):
Really listening, like trying toget at why does the person have
this perspective?
What's behind it?
What's beneath it?
What are they worried about?
What are their hopes?
We often don't ask thosequestions.
We aren't curious enough,particularly about people we
(08:57):
disagree with.
And there's just so much tolearn, I think, from asking
those questions.
But the other thing I would sayis, and you mentioned this, the
power of vulnerability andcommunicating what you feel, not
as an accusation, but just as...
(09:18):
as sharing your own truth with aperson.
And I think one of the thingsthat we've tried to do in
building our relationship withthe Becker's is to be honest
about how it feels.
On the property, there are twoburial grounds.
There's the burial ground fortheir ancestors, which has
(09:40):
elaborate headstones, includinghonoring the service to the
Confederacy of some of theirancestors.
who like many Marylanders foughtfor the Confederacy.
And then there's the unmarkedburial ground where our
ancestors were buried.
And it's just ended up like awooded area with no markings.
(10:04):
And part of what we've saidabout that is it's a sad, it's
painful to knock the eight ballto see our ancestors' burial
ground recognized.
And we've had a really importantconversation about that, and
they actually are working withsome experts now to see if they
(10:29):
can identify where the remainsof our ancestors are so that
they can be marked.
And I'm really grateful to themfor that.
But it's not about accusing.
It's just about saying thatsource of sadness and pain for
us, they want to rectify that.
And I appreciate
SPEAKER_00 (10:48):
that.
There are pieces that sound alot like leadership on both
sides of that conversation.
I
SPEAKER_02 (10:53):
hope so.
And I hope, you know, I sharethe example in the book because
I hope it can be an example forfolks of the work that we need
to do collectively.
UNKNOWN (11:09):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (11:09):
We have time for one last question.
Is it okay?
I know we are over time, but canwe ask this one last question?
SPEAKER_03 (11:14):
Yeah.
So your book takes us teacher byteacher through your life, some
formal and some informal.
But what is the story you areworking to ensure gets told
about you by those who look toyou as a teacher?
I
SPEAKER_02 (11:36):
hope that I...
in some small way have inspiredother people to be of service.
One of the best parts of thisbook tour was an event we did in
Boston with many of my formerstudents who came.
And a number of them were mymiddle school students who are
(11:59):
now teachers.
And that makes me so happy thathopefully They took away
something from our timetogether, the school community
that we had, that helped themsee the difference teachers
could make and help them want tobe that difference in a young
(12:22):
person's life.
One of my students is in theMassachusetts state legislature.
She represents the communitywhere our school was.
I love that.
That makes me really happy.
She's committed her life topublic service.
And so I hope, whether it was inmy teaching or in school
(12:42):
leadership or the work that I'vedone on policy, I hope that it
is some way to pay forward whatteachers did for me by hopefully
preparing a next generation ofyoung people to try to be that
source of positivity in theworld.
SPEAKER_00 (13:02):
Secretary John King, thank you so much for taking the
time to speak with us.
Thank you again for this book,Teacher by Teacher.
I would offer for listeners,I'll send them my copy, but I
think I've already promised itto 20 people who are already in
my life.
So it's already spoken for.
Thank you very much for takingthe time to talk.
(13:23):
Thank you for this book.
Thank you for your continuedservice to the important
institution of public education.
It is a pleasure and an honor tospeak with you, sir.
SPEAKER_02 (13:32):
Thank you so much for having me on it.
Thank you for creating thisspace for dialogue and hope.
SPEAKER_03 (13:44):
Thank you so much.
(14:14):
This podcast is underwritten bythe Federation of American
Scientists.
SPEAKER_01 (14:44):
So,
Hi, I'm Zach Chase and welcome back to Academic
Distinctions.
Oftentimes, we will edit thingsdown to get to a certain spot.
(00:24):
We spent an hour talking to thesecretary, and we couldn't tear
it down.
This second half is as good orbetter than the last episode,
and we think you'll agree.
Enjoy.
At the end of the book, as youmentioned, your family...
(00:46):
meets with the family of thosewho descended from the people
who enslaved your ancestors.
And that could have been wherethe story ended.
And I think what was so powerfulfor me as a reader was it wasn't
just we want to go there and seethis thing and have a better
understanding of our family'shistory.
(01:06):
But you write about the factthat there is a kind of
reconciliation and that there isa continued communication with
that family.
kind of America's greatest sin.
And you met and sat and sharedtime with these people and found
reconciliation.
I guess I want to start with notkind of how do other folks do
(01:28):
that.
How did you do that?
How did you kind of set asidewhat I would imagine to be a
great deal of pain and anger andAnd maybe you didn't set it
aside.
I'm just putting words into yourmouth now.
So how did you approach thatconversation before we kind of
think through how others mightconnect with those who are
different?
SPEAKER_02 (01:49):
Yeah, well, let me tell you the context.
When I was secretary, I wasinvited to give the commencement
address, University of MarylandEastern Shore, an HBCU from
which my grandmother graduatedin 1894.
And...
In preparation for a potentialspeech there, I started doing
this family research project.
(02:10):
A friend of a friend who was agenealogist for the Schomburg,
the part of the New York CityPublic Library that works on
African-American history,volunteered to help with the
project.
And one night I got an emailfrom her and she says, I found
the place where yourgreat-grandfather, now think
about that, we're talking aboutRuby Bridge is still alive.
(02:31):
My great-grandfather, there'ssome kid who's being babysat
right now by theirgreat-grandfather.
That's how far we are from thatinstitution, institution of
slavery.
So found the place wheregreat-grandfather was enslaved.
In fact, the cabin that he livedin as an enslaved person is
still standing on the property.
The property is owned by thefamily that are direct line
(02:53):
descendants of the family thatenslaved your family.
And the property is just 25miles from your house.
SPEAKER_03 (02:59):
Oh, my gosh.
SPEAKER_02 (03:02):
So then we had this whole family conversation.
What do you do with that, right?
Yeah.
Do you call ahead?
Do you send an email?
How do you open thisconversation?
My cousin was visiting theSmithsonian, the
African-American History Museum,and she just left, and she was
like, I need to see this place.
So she just went and knocked onthe door and said, I'm Jan King
(03:24):
Robinson.
My people were enslaved here.
And that began this journey.
And I will say that the family,the Becker family, they were
incredibly open.
And that's an important piece.
And I give them a lot of credit.
They were very open to buildinga relationship with us.
And our family and their family,we are friends.
(03:45):
We have built a realrelationship.
relationship, but we've had thehard conversations.
Sometimes they wereuncomfortable conversations.
You know, one of the examples Igive in the book is they said to
us at one point, we hope ourpeople were not cruel to your
people.
And of course, I knew what theymeant.
You know, we hope our ancestorsdidn't torture your ancestors.
(04:08):
But of course, slavery istorture.
And they were cruel becauseslavery is cruel.
And that was a difficultconversation.
I think it was difficult forthem to hear, to think about
their ancestors in that context.
SPEAKER_00 (04:24):
But I also, you know, it also
SPEAKER_02 (04:26):
pushed
SPEAKER_00 (04:27):
us.
When they said that, right?
Because I felt angry reading it.
And it is not me and it is notmy story.
And you are already puttingyourself in a very vulnerable
place.
And so are they, right?
SPEAKER_02 (04:39):
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (04:40):
What was your response?
How did you hear that?
And then did you need to collectyourself?
Because I got angry.
I was angry again as you justtold the story.
So I'm imagining that some angeris there.
SPEAKER_02 (04:57):
Yeah, I guess.
But I'm not necessarily angry atthem.
I'm angry at how do we organizeourselves so that these truly
lovely, lovely people.
Growing up in Montgomery County,Maryland, this is a school
system that prides itself oninclusivity, right?
(05:20):
How did they come through thateducational experience, that
life journey, and not havegrappled more fully with the
institution of slavery?
So I don't blame them, but I doquestion our refusal as a
(05:42):
society to do the work.
In Germany, the homes that weretaken from Jewish families in
the Holocaust have plaques onthem to say the name of the
family that lived there.
Here, we still have the statuesof Confederate generals who were
(06:07):
defending the institution ofslavery.
So the thing I was angry aboutis like, how did we get here?
But to their credit, they wereopen to the conversation and to
learning.
And they also, I think, helpedme understand the complexity of
(06:32):
how one thinks about one'sancestors.
Because they're your people.
You open up that photo album andyou see this grainy photo from
the 19th century.
You're
SPEAKER_00 (06:49):
like, that's my nose.
Then
SPEAKER_02 (06:50):
you have to grapple with what their ancestors were a
part of.
That's hard.
I think I've learned...
some more perspective around howhard that is.
SPEAKER_00 (07:10):
I want to name a thing that's in there that I
think is not at all surprisingto me, but that you are
approaching this as a teachermight when they ask a question
and you didn't, it sounds likeyou weren't expecting them to
have all the words exactly.
Like there's a, there's aforgiveness of like, Oh, you're
working towards something.
SPEAKER_01 (07:27):
And I,
SPEAKER_00 (07:29):
and I don't expect you to have the language, right.
But you showed up To be inlearning with one another, not
in community, but in learningwith one another, and that that
is inherently going to have somemistakes along the way, which I
would guess is part of thatlarger answer to what can people
practically do to connect withthose?
(07:51):
with whom they feel they havenothing.
Nobody's gonna write me and say,hey, we found your ancestors.
The majority of people are notgonna have a Washington Post
story that leads us down thisroad.
So what are some pieces that youhope your children do?
You're living that example.
But how might we do that to makethose connections more viable
(08:14):
and practical?
SPEAKER_02 (08:15):
I mean, two things.
One, and Stephanie reallycaptured this with the idea of
being curious.
We don't always teach youngpeople the power of listening.
You know, and I think aboutcivic education as we were
talking about earlier.
I think one of the skills ofcivic education is listening to
understand rather than listeningto prepare your rebuttal.
(08:36):
Really listening, like trying toget at why does the person have
this perspective?
What's behind it?
What's beneath it?
What are they worried about?
What are their hopes?
We often don't ask thosequestions.
We aren't curious enough,particularly about people we
(08:57):
disagree with.
And there's just so much tolearn, I think, from asking
those questions.
But the other thing I would sayis, and you mentioned this, the
power of vulnerability andcommunicating what you feel, not
as an accusation, but just as...
(09:18):
as sharing your own truth with aperson.
And I think one of the thingsthat we've tried to do in
building our relationship withthe Becker's is to be honest
about how it feels.
On the property, there are twoburial grounds.
There's the burial ground fortheir ancestors, which has
(09:40):
elaborate headstones, includinghonoring the service to the
Confederacy of some of theirancestors.
who like many Marylanders foughtfor the Confederacy.
And then there's the unmarkedburial ground where our
ancestors were buried.
And it's just ended up like awooded area with no markings.
(10:04):
And part of what we've saidabout that is it's a sad, it's
painful to knock the eight ballto see our ancestors' burial
ground recognized.
And we've had a really importantconversation about that, and
they actually are working withsome experts now to see if they
(10:29):
can identify where the remainsof our ancestors are so that
they can be marked.
And I'm really grateful to themfor that.
But it's not about accusing.
It's just about saying thatsource of sadness and pain for
us, they want to rectify that.
And I appreciate
SPEAKER_00 (10:48):
that.
There are pieces that sound alot like leadership on both
sides of that conversation.
I
SPEAKER_02 (10:53):
hope so.
And I hope, you know, I sharethe example in the book because
I hope it can be an example forfolks of the work that we need
to do collectively.
UNKNOWN (11:09):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (11:09):
We have time for one last question.
Is it okay?
I know we are over time, but canwe ask this one last question?
SPEAKER_03 (11:14):
Yeah.
So your book takes us teacher byteacher through your life, some
formal and some informal.
But what is the story you areworking to ensure gets told
about you by those who look toyou as a teacher?
I
SPEAKER_02 (11:36):
hope that I...
in some small way have inspiredother people to be of service.
One of the best parts of thisbook tour was an event we did in
Boston with many of my formerstudents who came.
And a number of them were mymiddle school students who are
(11:59):
now teachers.
And that makes me so happy thathopefully They took away
something from our timetogether, the school community
that we had, that helped themsee the difference teachers
could make and help them want tobe that difference in a young
(12:22):
person's life.
One of my students is in theMassachusetts state legislature.
She represents the communitywhere our school was.
I love that.
That makes me really happy.
She's committed her life topublic service.
And so I hope, whether it was inmy teaching or in school
(12:42):
leadership or the work that I'vedone on policy, I hope that it
is some way to pay forward whatteachers did for me by hopefully
preparing a next generation ofyoung people to try to be that
source of positivity in theworld.
SPEAKER_00 (13:02):
Secretary John King, thank you so much for taking the
time to speak with us.
Thank you again for this book,Teacher by Teacher.
I would offer for listeners,I'll send them my copy, but I
think I've already promised itto 20 people who are already in
my life.
So it's already spoken for.
Thank you very much for takingthe time to talk.
(13:23):
Thank you for this book.
Thank you for your continuedservice to the important
institution of public education.
It is a pleasure and an honor tospeak with you, sir.
SPEAKER_02 (13:32):
Thank you so much for having me on it.
Thank you for creating thisspace for dialogue and hope.
SPEAKER_03 (13:44):
Thank you so much.
(14:14):
This podcast is underwritten bythe Federation of American
Scientists.
SPEAKER_01 (14:44):
So,
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