Oscar Season 2025-2026: Our take after watching Oscar favorites! HAMNET, TESTAMENT OF ANN LEE, NUREMBERG, NO OTHER CHOICE, WAKE UP DEAD MAN, IS THIS THING ON, TRAIN DREAMS and more!

Episode Transcript
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SPEAKER_03 (00:14):
Hey everyone, and welcome to a new episode of the
Academy Anonymous podcast wherewe are breaking down all the
latest news and updates on theOscar race.
I'm your co-host Joseph.

SPEAKER_02 (00:25):
And I'm your other co-host, Jules.

SPEAKER_03 (00:28):
Um, and we have a lot to talk about because we've
seen a lot of movies, a lot ofcontenders.
We finally have screened them,um, a lot of awards profiles
that we're gonna do one by one.
But before that, why don't westart off by saying a few uh
current events that I think areimportant to mention?
So, what's been going on?

SPEAKER_02 (00:46):
Well, one of the biggest things is the governor
awards just passed.
Right.
And that's a big uh, you know,event spotlight where we get to
see a lot of the uh films and umactors, especially who are
campaigning.
So if you're planning oncampaigning and you're planning

(01:06):
to uh you know participate inaward season, you usually make
an appearance here, so it'salways interesting to see who
shows up and who doesn't show upright in a way.
Um they were honoring TomCruise.

SPEAKER_03 (01:17):
Uh but it was a big deal for a lot of people, right?
Yeah, because he finally won anOscar, it was an honorary one,
right?
Um actually what's kind of funnyis that they're sort of starting
the campaign for next year,right?
Because he's working withInyaritu.
Yeah.
And Iaritu presented him theaward.
Oh, I know.
So yeah, Inyaritu had a wholespeech, you know, about Tom, and

(01:37):
then Tom got the award from him.
Very interesting.
And so the campaign for 2026starts now for Tom Cruise um to
win that lead actor Oscar.
Right.
But so they recognized him.
Who else did they recognize?
Dolly Pardon.
Uh Dolly Pardon, right?
Who is I believe a two-timeOscar nominee for original song?
Well, when we I know TransAmerica and 9 to 5.

(01:57):
9 to 5.
So 1980 and I think 2005.
And Trans America was a reallythat was I thought I really
liked that song a lot.

SPEAKER_01 (02:04):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (02:04):
Um, never been nominated as an actor.

SPEAKER_01 (02:06):
No.

SPEAKER_03 (02:07):
Um, as far as I know, she did not attend the
ceremony because she's havingsome health issues.
And so we send our very best toher.
We love Dolly Pardon.
Oh, I adore everyone adores.
Dolly Pardon for president.
Um and so my actually myfavorite recognition though at
the governor's awards was forproduction designer Wynn Thomas,

(02:27):
who I absolutely adore.
Um, I grew up on Mars Attacks,he's a production designer
there, but he's worked on somany incredible Spike Lee films,
including the best Spike Leefilm, which is Malcolm X.

SPEAKER_01 (02:39):
Right.

SPEAKER_03 (02:39):
Um, and he was he was even the production designer
of A Beautiful Mind, which was abest picture winner.
And he he has never beennominated for an Oscar.
That's nuts.
And so, like to me, that'sheartbreaking because even
someone like Tom Cruise andDolly Bardin, they've been
nominated.
And Wynn Thomas has done nothingbut like grade A work in movies

(03:00):
that have been nominated for uma bunch of different categories
and had has even one bestpicture, a beautiful mind, and
he has never been mentioned.
So I I loved that.

SPEAKER_02 (03:08):
I will say, you know, that just spotlights a big
issue with the Academy Awards asa whole, this whole you know,
institution, which is that somany worthwhile contenders slip
through the cracks, andmeanwhile, there's an
inconsistency, and other peopleget a bunch of uh mentions and
recognition, and other peoplejust don't.
So there's always this longingfor you know consistency that's

(03:31):
always seems like it's lacking.

SPEAKER_03 (03:32):
Yeah.
And the final honoree, I think,was Debbie Allen, who uh who I
know from uh fame, um, actress,choreographer.
Um actually, I did not know thatshe was actually a producer on
uh on uh Steven Spielberg's filmAmistad um in 1997, which didn't
get an I for Best Picture, butum but she was a producer on
that.
Now it's that's that's great.

SPEAKER_02 (03:52):
Um And I also say that my problem with the
governor awards, I've heard thatit's one of the best ceremonies
to attend.
It's private.
Private ceremony.
It's a private ceremony.
I think I've heard from fromfrom people who've attended that
it's you know quite special,quite intimate, uh, quite
lovely.
I think they sit you in a tablewith, you know, uh other crafts,
uh, other filmmakers, othercraftsmen and women uh who are

(04:15):
you know the bread and butter ofthis film industry who you might
not know.
And it's an opportunity for youto exchange um communication.
Uh so an actor might get to knowa sound designer, and a makeup
artist might get to know aneditor.
So, you know, there's somethingvery, very, very quite lovely
about that.
But I do take issue with theAcademy Awards using like the

(04:38):
governor awards sometimes as akind of fail-safe.
You know, we're not gonna giveyou an Oscar, or we rent out of
chances to give you an Oscar, soI guess we'll give you an
honorary Oscar.

SPEAKER_03 (04:47):
The actual the actual winners, right?

SPEAKER_02 (04:49):
Yeah, um, and so that's sort of I guess meant to
replace the fact that you knowwe're just not gonna give you an
Oscar.
I agree.
You know, like uh Angela Bassettwon it last year, and that was
you know, off the heels oflosing for Black Panther in
2019.
Samuel Jackson won one.
Samuel Jackson won one.
So sometimes it just feels likea you know, this is how we can
fix our errors.
So let me ask you a question.

(05:10):
And I and I take and I takeissue with that.

SPEAKER_03 (05:12):
So you are you of the opinion that it is not a
substitute?
Like, do you think that it thatWynn Thomas's honorary Oscar is
a substitute for how many timeshe should have been nominated at
the Oscars and he failed, theyfailed to give him one
nomination throughout hiscareer?

SPEAKER_02 (05:29):
I would say that in my opinion, in my personal view,
it's not a substitute becauseit's a ceremony that doesn't
happen live.
It's private, and it's more of acareer achievement than it is a
specific, you know, uh work thatyou did that's being highlighted
by your peers.

SPEAKER_03 (05:48):
Um it's not the same, right?
It's just not the same thing.
It's not the same.
Imagine, imagine.
I mean, I think Wynn Thomas hashad an incredible career, and I
think he's one of the bestproduction designers working in
the US.
But imagine what would havehappened had he gotten some of
the recognition that he deservedworking on those Pike Lee films.
Yeah.
Imagine what would have happenedfor his career, but certainly
what would have happened likefor the art form.

SPEAKER_02 (06:10):
You know, I think every I think every filmmaker in
this industry, you know, yearnsto have that moment of being
actually recognized forsomething that you did, a film
that you worked on by yourpeers, and having that sort of
nationwide global platform uhfor people to see, you know,

(06:31):
your work being celebrated.
Right.
You know, not just people in theindustry, but people just all
around the entire world.
Right.
Everybody wants that.
So, you know, I just don't thinkthat, you know, a a career
achievement award as great asthat is replaces that.

SPEAKER_03 (06:45):
I I would agree with that.
And I also think that like thereare more egregious levels of it.
So like Tom Cruise has yet towin, and that's I think
problematic.
But he's been handsomelynominated, yeah, and he's had
great films and great films offor best picture.
And there's every reason tobelieve that he is going to have
an opportunity to win acompetitive Oscar.

(07:06):
That may not be the case, youknow, for Wynn Thomas, you know,
who who's a little bit pickierabout the projects he does now.

SPEAKER_00 (07:13):
Right.

SPEAKER_03 (07:13):
Um, so I do think you know it gets a little bit
more egregious.
Like I would have loved to seeDolly Pardon nominated as an
actor.

SPEAKER_02 (07:20):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (07:20):
You know, um, Best Little Horror House in Texas.
I I love that movie.

SPEAKER_02 (07:23):
I love her and Steel Magnolias.

SPEAKER_03 (07:25):
Steel Magnolias.
You know, so she's she's such aa memorable actor, right?
That you overlook everythingthat she contributes to a
project, but you know, overtime, 25 years later, 20 years
later, you realize she's she'sjust a special actor on screen.
Um, and so I do feel like thereare levels of how egregious it
can get.
And so, you know, for DollyPardon, for example, I I would

(07:48):
have wanted her to have beennominated for a competitive
Oscar at some point, right?
Um, I I don't know if that's inthe books anymore, and that's
hard and it's kind ofheartbreaking.

SPEAKER_02 (07:57):
Yeah, yeah.
So I you know, I have mixedfeelings about it, but I I do
think that as a celebration inand of itself, I think it is
quite special.
And I like how they, you know, Ilike what they do.

SPEAKER_03 (08:08):
Do you like that?
Because when we were growing up,they used to have it in the
actual ceremony.

SPEAKER_02 (08:11):
Do you like that change?
I like yes, I like having ahaving it be its own thing.
I just think that it should bepossibly to be a little bit more
on par with the Academy Awards,it should be live.
Oh, that would be great.

SPEAKER_03 (08:28):
Yeah, like they could do like a whole Oscar
weekend and do like thegovernor's award one night.
And that would be really nice.
I I agree.
I hadn't thought of that, butthat would be really, really
cool.
Yeah.
Um, I think the other bigcurrent event that I wanted to
at least mention was we got ourfirst precursor, which is that
the Gotham Film Awards announcedtheir nominees and um some
interesting choices.
Um, I I don't know what you madeout of them.

(08:50):
I know that there were somesignificant changes made to
these um to some of thesenominations.
Like, for example, there's a top10 for best picture instead of a
top five, and the Gotham FilmAwards don't have any kind of
loyalty to anyone.
So to a certain degree, theydidn't they didn't tell anyone
that there's there's gonna be 10spots or that there's gonna be
two script categories.
They're just you know, they'repicking uh members of the

(09:11):
industry to be jury members andthen making coming up with
nominations.

SPEAKER_02 (09:14):
Well what I like about the Gotham Awards is that
they're categories that areselected by a jury, and I think
it's usually, you know, uhwriters, journalists, press
press.
Um, and so I like the idea of agroup of collaborators getting
together and deciding thenominees.

(09:36):
I actually think that that's thedirection that we need to move
in for the Academy Awards.
The Academy Awards, and we'vetalked about this several times,
should be um like the SAG AwardCommittee, uh like the Cam Film
Festival that has a special juryum that everyone you know sort
of freaks out about when it'sannounced.
You know, they should have asmall group of people, a

(09:58):
committee that is selecting thenominees that's fairly
representative, you know, of theawards of the body itself, uh of
the voting body itself.
It certainly has to berepresentative of that, but they
should select who the nomineesare, and I think that that would
go a long way to fixing a lot ofinconsistency issues that the
Academy Awards have.

(10:18):
So that's something that I quitelike about the Gotham Awards.

SPEAKER_03 (10:22):
Um I mean, we know that, for example, some people
commented on how one battleafter another was essentially
the most nominated film, Ithink, at the Gotham.
And I think that I readsomewhere even maybe in its
history, and it is a film madefor$150 million from Warner
Brothers that showed on you know70 millimeter iMac.
Right.

SPEAKER_02 (10:41):
That's that's the other thing that was that's the
that's the other side of thecoin.
I would say that the thing Ireally dislike about the Gotham
is that they've transformed frombeing this platform for
independent cinema into now sortof joining the other awards
bodies uh of being, you know, uha platform for Oscar Fodder,
Oscar Punditry.

(11:03):
So now it's trying to have itscake and eat it too.
So you get the uh films thatwill show up in the independent
circuit, but you'll also getfilms that are certainly packed
for Oscar nominations.
I think that leaves a door openfor the organization to be, you
know, kind of negotiating withthese bigger studios for, you
know, uh nominations andwhatnot, you know, which is part

(11:24):
and parcel with many of theseaward body organizations.
Um and so I think in a waythey've lost some of their
identity, and I think a crucialpart of their identity.
And so that's what I think isthe big bummer about the Gotham
Awards.
That being said, the the thecommittees that are selecting
the nominees know what they'redoing.
So usually the nominees arepretty, pretty fucking good.

(11:46):
Um and they are a nicerepresentation of some of the
best um that we've had in cinemathis year.
But I really dislike how we youknow, how the Gotham was really
a place to highlight films andperformances and filmmakers that
were not gonna get a chance toget highlighted throughout the
rest of the award circuitbecause they're just not part of

(12:08):
a bigger studio or part of abigger movie.
And so we've lost some of that.
And I think that, you know, thatthat sucks.

SPEAKER_03 (12:14):
I think that's what some people are sort of
complaining about, and and feellikewise that there's, you know,
maybe a missed opportunity herebecause you have so much of the
inflated punditry that's gonnaoccur, you know, at the end of
the year and at the beginning ofthe next.
Um, and the Gotham has kind offelt like a separate thing.
It kind of almost felt like theGotham to a certain degree was

(12:36):
the less populist version of theIndependent Spirit Awards.

SPEAKER_02 (12:40):
Um, now it kind of feels, as you said, where like
you know, I would even say it'sit's transcended the Independent
Spirit Awards because theIndependent Spirit Awards still
would never nominate a movielike the Wild Office.
They're not allowed to, they'renot allowed to nominate a lot of
it.
Exactly.
So in a way, like it's it's nowthis weird kind of like child
between like the IndependentSpirit Awards and the Golden

(13:01):
Globes.

SPEAKER_03 (13:02):
Oh, that's interesting.
Because I will say that thesecond most nominated film was
we had made an article and I hadwritten some of our predictions
for the awards, and I was verymuch of the opinion that it was
going to be a great morning forif I had legs, I'd kick you.
Right.
And it was the second mostnominated film.
And that certainly feels to melike the film that was going to
be nominated among the fiveGotham Best Picture nominees,

(13:25):
and it was probably going to bethe winner, right?
Along with, you know, if you'relooking at if you're looking at
that list, I think it might havebeen it might have been If I had
legs that kick you, familiartouch, lurker, east of wall,
some of the smaller films,right?
Yeah.
And so they're kind of stuck inthat weird place between, you
know, one battle after anotherbreaks records for the most
nominated film, and at the sametime, the second most nominated

(13:47):
film is if I had legs that kickyou.
Right.
Um, and so it's kind of odd.
It also used to be that likewhen they give their award for,
you know, whatever category itis, you would hope it was gonna
give some kind of leverage tothe film that won it.
I won't lie.
When Honora lost last year to adifferent man, I was over the

(14:08):
moon.
I was over the moon, and I likeOnora, but the just the audacity
to say that, yeah, we're gonnago ahead and give it to a
different man, which was sounderseen, so undervalued by
audiences, I I I loved that.
Right.

SPEAKER_02 (14:21):
And so, like But again, I think that's that's
kind of what's cool about theGotham Awards, that we'll also
have a jury that selects thewinners.

SPEAKER_03 (14:29):
But but then I will say that.
So, how did that even reallyhelp a different man?
It didn't.
No, I don't, but the hope isthat what it did help was you
know, entice the industry tohelp the filmmakers make another
project, right?
That that's at least that's thehope for me.

SPEAKER_02 (14:47):
Um, and so I mean, if you look at the best picture
list, it's I mean, like I said,you can't fault them with their
nominees, they're they they'rewonderful nominees, great
nominations.
These are people who arecinephiles who know what they're
talking about.
So Bogonia, East of Wall,Familiar Touch, Hamnet, if I had
legs I'd kick you, Lurker, onebad after another, sorry, baby,
the testament of Ann Lee, andTrain Dreams.

(15:10):
Now, what's pretty cool is thatI believe the only two movies
here that we have not seen areEast of Wall and Familiar Touch.
Um, we missed East of Wall atSundance.
They did not play at a theaternear you or barely played at a
theater near you.
And uh I've been dying to seeFamiliar Touch, um, but we
haven't gotten to that yet.
Every other film we have seen,and many of which we'll be

(15:31):
talking about.
I love Lurker.
Um, uh, we'll get into Testamentof Ann Lee.
Um, I got a chance to see if Ihad legs that kick you again.
You know, we saw it at Sundance,and I, you know, this rewatch
was uh very, very good.
It was uh a very you know umresonant filming experience,
film experience watching thatagain.

(15:52):
I was a big fan of Begonia.
Maybe we'll get into that later.
You have some different opinionsabout begonia.
Um, and let's see, for a foreignlanguage film, it was just an
accident, no other choice, NovoVague, Resurrection, and Sound
of Falling.
Um, together we've seen four ofthose nominees.
We just missed Resurrection atCannes.

(16:12):
Uh, unfortunately, I can't waitto see that.
Hopefully, it comes out nearhere.
Uh, for best documentary, 2002000 meters to Andrifka, Black
News, Terms and Conditions, MyUndesirable Friends Part One,
Last Air in Moscow, The PerfectNeighbor, which we have seen,
and put your soul on your handand walk, which went to Can and

(16:33):
we missed it, unfortunately.

SPEAKER_03 (16:34):
Right.
I mean, I think there was a lotof great films.
One film that was not there,which I was pegging to be the
favorite, was Marty Supreme.
Right.
And so a lot of people are sortof saying that it was ineligible
because whatever screened at NewYork twice um was not a finished
cut and that there was gonna bechanges, and so that for some

(16:56):
reason they could not officiallyconsider the film.

SPEAKER_02 (16:59):
Interesting.

SPEAKER_03 (17:00):
Sounds super sketchy to me.
Whatever.
I mean, I think I think it itwould it's a missed opportunity.
I I mean, I think it's I thinkit's odd to say the least.

SPEAKER_02 (17:12):
Um But I do like that again, you know, you'll get
uh films that pop here that youknow we can expect them to not
to possibly not pop anywhereelse um in the next few months.
Right.
So Kelly Reichert got nominatedfor best director for the
mastermind.
We saw that at Cannes.
Best actor also and best actor.
Um Oliver Lax got nominated forSurratt, which was really cool.

(17:35):
Um, let's see.
Uh I was a big fan of Urchin anduh Harris Dickinson got
nominated for best uhbreakthrough director.
Uh Carson Lund, Efus is one ofmy favorite films of the year.
That got nominated for BestFemin uh Best Uh Breakthrough
Director.
Um, let's see uh Sound ofFalling got a cut of a couple
nominations.
I was a big fan of I was a bigfan of that out of can.

(17:56):
Nouveau Vogue was surprising tome when it got on here for
foreign film or internationalfilm.
Right.
Um, which, you know, uh NouveauVogue, we've talked about how it
hasn't really had the sort ofimpact and surge that you would
have hoped, or I'm sure Netflixwould have hoped.
Um, we'll be talking about NoOther Choice soon.
I'm dying to watch preparationuh for the next life.

(18:17):
I haven't seen that yet.
Um, only got that onenomination, which I think No, I
got two.
No, I got two, yes.
But there's a film that I wouldhave thought would have gotten
not her best picture.
Right.
That's what I thought.
Right, exactly.
Uh Pillion, I loved out of can.
And I still am confused.
Is that coming out this year?
Is that coming out next year?
I have no idea.

SPEAKER_00 (18:36):
Yeah, I have no idea.

SPEAKER_02 (18:37):
Um, well, I know it's coming out wide next year,
but is is it gonna have aqualifying run?
Um, I really um I'm alwaysinterested in the performances
that get picked by these uh uhcommittees.
I think this committee thatpicks the performances picks
both the lead, the supporting,and the breakthroughs, which is
interesting.
And I do think one of theirgoals is to like spread the love

(18:58):
a little bit.
Um, and what's really cool isthat in the lead performance uh
selection, I think we've onlymissing one film, I believe.
And I think it's a film that uhhasn't come out yet.
Um My Father's Shadow.

SPEAKER_03 (19:13):
My Father's Shadow.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (19:14):
Um I think it went to Can.
I think we missed it though.
Right.
And in the supportingcategories, uh, we haven't seen
Jay Kelly yet.
Jim Jarmish's film.
And Jim Jarmish's film,everything else we've seen.
So, you know, it's it's it's ait's an eclectic list, and you
know, I can't fault them.
You know, I like I said, thereare many, many, many interesting
nominees here.

SPEAKER_03 (19:34):
Um here's where I really like go off the rails,
which is all right, so you wantto be the in-between thing
because you don't know if youwant to be a golden globe or if
you want to be a spirit award,and so you're kind of stuck
between one bat after another.
And if I have, like I said, kickyou um between Hamnet and
Familiar Touch, fine.

(19:55):
You know, I think obviously theyhave to get themselves together,
but then you have the specialawards, and those are
extraordinarily obnoxious.
Right.

SPEAKER_02 (20:04):
I'll just say before we get into that, the last
category I didn't mention was uhthe breakthrough performances.
And for example, I'm prettypretty happy that you know Tony
Tew got mentioned for Kiss ofthe Spider-Woman.
That was great, uh, which isnice to see at least some love
for that movie there.
Um preparation of the uh for thenext life got another mention
there.
ASAP Rocky for highest tolowest, that was weird to me.

SPEAKER_03 (20:25):
I really liked him in that movie.

SPEAKER_02 (20:26):
Really?
I thought he was better than ifI had legs, I'd kick you.

SPEAKER_03 (20:28):
I either way, just give him something.
I you know, he's had I think areally strong year.
Right.
So the the tributes, the tributeawards to me are the most
frustrating.
Yeah, because what you'reessentially saying is the people
who sort of own theconversation, whether it's the
awards conversation, the popcultural conversation, the
critics conversation, the fansconversation, they are they can

(20:54):
sort of exist in both.
Now at least they can exist inboth.
They can be a best picturenominee and they'll also get a
special mention.
And some of the smaller filmsdon't get any of the special
mentions.
So I kind of I kind of feel likedid you really need to nominate
um, for example, um the directortribute award, Noah Bombach for

(21:15):
Jay Kelly?
Right.
Wouldn't it have been moreappropriate to give this award
to Noah Bombach when he wasmaking those really, really tiny
independent films that barelygot any attention and not a film
brought to you by Netflix?
You know, like why couldn't wegive him this in his era of um
while we're young, MistressAmerica?

(21:36):
Um, you know.

SPEAKER_02 (21:37):
But I also feel uh you're you're right, and and
that it's odd to be giving thataward to Jay Kelly, which didn't
do that well at the nominations,it didn't get nominated for
screenplay, I believe.
And it got Adam Sandler out ofme.
So like it just seemed like theyweren't that crazy about it to
begin with, and now it's gettingits own tribute award.
That's the kind of thing thatgives the impression that

(21:59):
there's some, you know, youknow, uh bribing happening here.

SPEAKER_03 (22:03):
Yeah, that's some of the things that Netflix wants an
award.
We gotta give them one.
So Netflix brings you thedirector tribute award.
Um, the ensemble tribute, I lovethat it's Sinners.
I I I do, I think I you can'tfault it for that, but so then
why wasn't Sinners good enoughto nominate for Best Picture?
Right, which is kind of weird.
It's inconsistent, it's kind ofinconsistent.
So, like the musical tribute isgoing to Song Sung Blue from

(22:24):
Focus Features, which that to meis crazy.
I mean, Kiss of the Spider-Womanis right there.
So so I don't understand sort ofhow you how you made it, you
know.

SPEAKER_02 (22:32):
It feels to me like that's brought to you by focus
features.
Yeah, it's like focus features.
I want an award here, you know,let's make it happen.
Exactly.
And then one of the mostegregious ones has to be the
tribute to After the Hunt, youknow, that is absolutely which
is absolutely bonk.

SPEAKER_03 (22:46):
That's kind of you know, that's borderline
offensive.
That's borderline offensive.
I don't think that you've doneanyone a favor.
It that that recognition isn't,I think, for the filmmakers,
it's not for the culture, it'snot for the fans, it's not for
the art form.
Who does that serve other thanAmazon who's gonna have a

(23:06):
premiere date on streaming ofall things?

SPEAKER_02 (23:09):
Um no, but it's it's it's it's crazy.
Like if Amazon had one of thebest, like they did last year,
um Nickel Boys.
Okay, that makes sense.
It's just one of the best filmsof the year, period.
This is one of the most, youknow, uh uh mixed uh films of
the year.
It has a 35% uh you know criticrating and people rating around

(23:31):
tomatoes, it's in the 50s andMetacritic.
And I would like to know whichof the critics.

SPEAKER_03 (23:36):
So which of the critics or the press members who
are sort of repping the othernominees in the other categories
have sort of supported themention of After the Hunt for
the for the visionary tribute?
I would like I would like toknow that because I mean
something makes makes me feelthat we want the press and the
members of the critics, which isgreat, to sort of nominate these

(23:57):
uh these quality film titles andnot you know be limited by
budget in these othercategories, but then we're gonna
give a special award and we'renot gonna get any input
whatsoever as to who shouldactually receive it.
Right.
We're instead we're just gonnasay, well, who are our corporate
sponsors?

SPEAKER_02 (24:11):
Right.
So it's like Amazon calling andsaying, okay, so listen, I saw
the nominees, uh, I didn't seeAfter the Hunt anywhere.
So how are we gonna work?
How we're gonna how we're gonnafix this.

SPEAKER_03 (24:20):
Yeah, and I feel like it's it's very unfortunate
because there's just so muchtalent in After the Hunt, and
Luca Guadagnino is an immensetalent, an incredible filmmaker.
And I actually think he got atribute, I think, last year for
Championship, because he hadsuch great work.
Well, if they didn't give him atribute last year, that made
absolutely no sense, right?
Um, but it could it kind of goesback a little bit also to me
with the whole After the Hunt isthe opening night film of New

(24:43):
York.
There's something off aboutthat, right?
That right now, at least ifyou're a Cinephile, if you're a
fan of the New York FilmFestival, if you're a fan of the
art form, you're sort ofthinking, is Amazon sort of like
twisting the arm of theseorganizations in order to get
like those really prestigiousspots?
Um, that means something.

(25:03):
And so, like, why would open thenight why would opening night
ever be um after the hunt whenyou have resurrection right
there?
You know what I mean?
Right.
Um, or another you could make itMagellan, you know what I mean?
Um, so I do think that there'ssomething really weird about it,
and and that selection ofspecial awards is is extremely

(25:24):
frustrating.
I love Tessa Thompson.
Tessa Thompson is one of myfavorite actresses.
We saw Heda, we have so manythoughts on it.
I loved to see her nominate forbest actress.
I don't think she needs the bestactress mention and the
spotlight tribute.
You know, you know, I I wouldrather, you know, her get the
spotlight tribute and give onehell of a speech and then you
know have an extra spot open andlead.

(25:45):
I'm not sure that this is I'mnot sure that this is the award
ceremony where you need to haveanyone doubling up on prizes.

SPEAKER_02 (25:53):
Yeah, yeah, I agree 100%.
So it's some it's it's a mixedbag.
You know, I do ultimately likethe quality that I see with the
nominees, but again, I likewe've we've been mentioning, I I
I mourn a little bit for likewhat we're losing, what we've
lost, and then this sort ofinfiltration of you know, quote

(26:14):
unquote, you know, otherentities sort of having their
their hands on this uh awardceremony is also quite
frustrating, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (26:23):
The special interests yeah, but anyway, uh
so I think the other thing totalk about in terms of current
events, um I think we shouldtalk about Frankenstein.
We talked a lot about what wethought was gonna happen before
it came out, it has officiallycome out now.

SPEAKER_02 (26:38):
Right.
We you and I were mentioningthat Frankenstein was looking
like a just to remind you guysum in one of our last podcast
episodes that Frankenstein waslooking like a sleeper contender
um because it was primed to dowell in costume design in tech
categories like costume design,like original score.
And if you look at Gamelo deToro's history, when Gail de

(27:00):
Toro hits in those categories,it's because he has a best
picture nominee in place.

SPEAKER_01 (27:06):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (27:06):
And so um, lo and behold, you know, we said that
maybe a month ago or so, andthen not everyone's got
Frankenstein in their top 10.
Um having seen all of Netflix'suh contenders minus Jay Kelly, I
feel very comfortable sayingthat Frankenstein is definitely
um Amazon, I mean, uh Netflix'sbig horse.

(27:28):
Um, will that result in it beinga you know best picture nominee?
Time will tell.
But I will say, you know, aswe've been saying, you know,
it's it's certainly primed to bethat because it's primed to do
really well in the techcategories.

SPEAKER_03 (27:43):
So I mean, so after seeing the film for yourself,
what are you sort of pegging thefilm for right now in terms of
nominations?

SPEAKER_02 (27:51):
Well, I think that and and the other the other big
thing that happened was when ituh run it up as a as a as a
festival favorite at Toronto,obviously.

SPEAKER_03 (28:01):
And people are loving it by the way.
It did well on Netflix, right?
You've spoken to a number ofpeople who really enjoy the
film.

SPEAKER_02 (28:08):
And it's also really critically acclaimed.
It's more critically acclaimedthan um uh his last best picture
nominee, Nai Marley.
Um, and I think it might even bemore critically acclaimed than
Pinocchio, I'm not sure.
Um, and so you know, it has itjust has everything uh going for
it to get certainly a costumedesign, a production design, um,

(28:28):
a original uh score, um and acinematography nomination that's
four.
And I think that the the iconicum uh uh source material that
it's based on, you know, itlends itself to very likely
getting a screenplay nomination,which is you know, unusual

(28:52):
because you know, I would saythat one of the criticisms I
have about the film have more todo with its script.

SPEAKER_03 (28:59):
And I think a lot of people have mentioned that also.

SPEAKER_02 (29:02):
Right.
But again, maybe just you know,just the sheer uh magnitude of
you know the standing of thatMary Shelley uh novel um is
going to help it get nominated.
There's also a stat that youknow if you placed in the
Toronto uh People's Choice atany placement, more often than
not, yeah, yeah, you get not youget a screenplay nomination at

(29:24):
least.

SPEAKER_03 (29:24):
Yeah, so I mean that that bodes really well.
I mean, makeup, I guess.

SPEAKER_02 (29:27):
Makeup, of course.
Makeup is a huge contender towin.
Right.
Um, and so I think that what isthat like six?
That's six so far.
Um and then if you add if youhad best picture, that's seven.

SPEAKER_03 (29:40):
Well, that's uh that's seven.
What do you think about JacobAlordi?

SPEAKER_02 (29:45):
After seeing it, I feel pretty confident that he
won't get nominated.
Um, I think he does a good job.
I personally am more fond of hisperformance in Priscilla.
Um, I think he's great in that.

SPEAKER_03 (29:58):
But he's had a great few projects.
I mean he's Sophia Coppola.
Yeah.
Um uh Emerald for now.
Right.
Right.
Uh I think he worked with uhGrizel on I think uh uh a
miniseries.
Um so now Guillermo del Toro.
So like he's building up apretty good filmography.

SPEAKER_02 (30:15):
He is, and I think that this will certainly set him
up for the next one to getnominated.
I still think he stands to dowell at the Golden Globes and
the SAG Awards.
Um, so I see him, you know,doing well in the precursors and
doing well with critics groups,but I don't think he makes it in
the end.
Um, I just think that um Ididn't see I'm just I'm not sure

(30:38):
that I felt it was a performancethat was going to speak too
loudly to the acting branch.

SPEAKER_03 (30:43):
Very interesting.
I mean, the the last thing I'llsay to that is one thing that I
don't think a lot of peoplemention or talk about, which
I'll go ahead and sort of shoutout, is the sound work is pretty
top-notch in it.
And so this is a verycompetitive year for sound
design, but I would not besurprised if it is as beloved as

(31:03):
you're saying and can get sevento eight nominations if sound is
somewhere in there as well.

SPEAKER_02 (31:08):
What did you think about Jacob Alorty?

SPEAKER_03 (31:11):
Um, my gut says right now that he probably will
make it in um because I do thinkthat he's got the globe and the
sag.
There's only one thing that Ithink I've told you I don't
like, which is I do not like acategory that has Jacob Alordi
and Paul Muskell.
Um, and so that's the only thingthat's chipping me up.

(31:31):
The other thing is that I thinkNetflix is gonna get one of
their guys in, and we haven'tseen Jake Kelly yet.
Right.
People are pegging Adam.
I just don't know if Adam canmake it in by himself.

SPEAKER_02 (31:42):
Right.
And I I haven't seen the filmyet.
I don't think he will be makingit in by himself, even if I
think I'm I'm I'm preparing fora a poor showing overall for Jay
Kelly, but I just think thatacting brand the acting branch
is gonna be a little bit morereceptive to Jay Kelly and what
it's about, and wanting tonominate a performance from that

(32:04):
movie than necessarily thefantasy of Frankenstein.

SPEAKER_03 (32:07):
Could be, could be.
I mean, we'll see what happens.
I also I also think sometimesthat voters base their
nominations on what the nextproject is, and so Wuthering
Heights is right there.
Um, I think there's like aninteresting overlap because
Wuthering Heights is coming outin February, Jesse Buckley will
end up being Brida Frankensteinaround the same month, I think,

(32:29):
or something like that.
And so there's some interesting,you know, overlap going on
there.
Um, but I think he has a goodchance, but we'll see what
happens.

SPEAKER_02 (32:36):
And another film that we saw that you know most
of you have already gotten thechance to see possibly is
Bogonia.
Yes, Bogonia.
And we saw it a few weeks ago,two or like three weeks ago,
yeah.
Um, at a special screening, andI really loved it.
I really uh thought that thefilm really touched a nerve, um,
especially with you knowcontemporary events and sort of

(32:59):
contemporary culture.
Um, and I thought it was veryriveting and it was sweaty and
it was dark and it wasdisturbing, and um, I quite
liked it a lot.
Um I will say that the third actfor me is where things get a

(33:20):
little bit bumpier.
I think with a better third act,the film would have been Aces.
Um with the third act, it has myinitial impression coming out of
the film was that it was goingto be uh very difficult for that
movie to get many Oscarnominations.
Uh coming out of the film, Ifelt pretty confident that Emma

(33:42):
Stone was not going to benominated for Best Actress.
It doesn't help that she just sorecently won her second Oscar
and it was for a Yorgoscollaboration.
So I think they're ready to giveYorgos a break.
Yorgos hasn't done well incontemporary films, he does well
more in period films, or theylike their yogos in that, in
that, in that manner.
Um, and I think that third actstands to I think the I think

(34:06):
that if you don't get on thewavelength of the film, you're
not gonna like the film.
You know, um, it certainly hasits own wavelength, and I think
it's not as accessible assomething like Poor Things,
which in and of itself is notfully accessible, you know, to
everyone either or the favorite.
But, you know, these uh thesecontemporary Yorko's pieces are
more sinister, darker.

(34:28):
Um, and so I think there's astrong chance that voters are
gonna see the film and kind ofbe turned off by it.
But I think that a lot of themmight be especially turned off
by the ending of it or the orthe the last the third act of
it.
Um that being said, I thinkJesse Plemens gives one of my
favorite performances of theyear.
I think he was flat out amazing.
I think he was fucking terrific.

(34:50):
Um, I would love to see him getnominated for best actor, but I
really don't think that's gonnahappen.
I've never been honored for asag, I will say that
individually.
Right.
I don't think this is the kindof, especially now that the sag
is not, you know, the sag weremember.
Now it's sort of this uhcombination between, you know,
the sag and and other entities.
Um, I don't see that being apopular choice for sag.

(35:13):
Um and so I thought honestly thebest chance the film has is a
possible nomination inscreenplay.
And even that I I feel prettyconfident, or maybe I shouldn't
say confident, but I right nowmy gut is telling me that it
also doesn't make it toscreenplay, it certainly doesn't
make it to picture, and thatreally the only thing that maybe

(35:37):
I could be wrong about is thatEmma Stone in the very
lackluster best actress categorywhere there's like only eight
contenders or seven contenders,maybe she could sneak in because
they prefer to give Emma Stone auh fifth, you know, acting
nomination, which again itsounds wild to me.
Um, so soon after winning hersecond Oscar, maybe they they'd

(36:00):
rather nominate her and youknow, what is clear, what is
clearly a big commitment to herrole um than certain other
actors contenders that might bein her per, you know, in her
surrounding.
So possibly, but right now I seeit as a film that gets blanked.

SPEAKER_03 (36:16):
Um, well and that's coming from someone who really
really liked it.
I thought I had very strongperformances.
I think the strongest pushes aregonna be for Emma Stone, who
should repeat where she's reallywell liked, the Globes and the
SAG.
I think Jesse Plemens, who wasnominated for Kinds of Kindness,
he should get the Globenomination.
And I would not be surprised ifhe got the sag nomination.

(36:37):
I think he gave a brilliantperformance, but he's a
brilliant actor.
Um I did not like the film.
I'm not a fan of the film.
I'm not a fan of the third act,but I'm not huge on the first or
the second act either.
Um, in my opinion, the bestperformance actually belonged to
um the young man um who Ibelieve is is on his first film.

(36:57):
Um I think I believe his name isuh Aiden Delbus, um, who's I
think competing and supporting.
Um he was actually my favoriteperformance.
Um I was not surprised when it,you know, maybe had a little bit
more of a polarized reactionfrom critics when it opened up
here.
At the same time, I think it'srecovered pretty well.

SPEAKER_02 (37:17):
I think well, I will say it started out in Metacritic
with like a 78.
Right.
And then went all the way downto a 70.
Now it's like 68.

SPEAKER_03 (37:24):
I remember it being 68 at some point.

SPEAKER_02 (37:26):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And now it's suddenly like at a72, 73.

SPEAKER_03 (37:30):
Yeah, that I think it recovered a little bit, and I
think it did make some money atthe box office.
And I know that it didn't get aD plus like other films did,
which we'll talk about later.
Yeah, that's interesting.

SPEAKER_02 (37:40):
But I also say, but also say it's still in the camp
of films that certainlyunderperformed for how much they
were made.
Right.
So that film has, I think, a Iread a budget of 55 million.
Whoa.
Right, right.
And I mean, as much as I likethe film, you know, 55 million
sounds like a lot for thatmovie.

(38:00):
It's not gonna make it, it's notgonna make 55 million back.
Right, you know, so so even evenif you know it didn't do, you
know, you know, uh chump change,right?
You know, it's still it's stillfar off from what it would what
it was made for.

SPEAKER_03 (38:14):
Well, so to me, I think it's you know, second tier
Yorgos, who said he's gonna goon a break now, um, which I
think I he works really he worksvery consistently, so I kind of
understand it, but I didn't likethe script.
I don't like the I didn't likethe script from Will Tracy.

SPEAKER_02 (38:32):
Um Yeah, and you know, I'm sorry to inter
interrupt you, but yeah, I mean,like I said, I quite like the
film, but Will Tracy is kind ofmore missed for me than hit.
I didn't love his screenplay forthe menu either, but I do think
that his collaboration here withYorgos was much more uh felt
much more grounded and evocativethan the menu did, which I was

(38:55):
not a fan of at all.

SPEAKER_03 (38:57):
Um so I kind of I I didn't like the script too much,
which made sense with the menu,which I didn't like too much
either.
I still think it has a shot atscreenplay though, because I do
think that no matter what thepiece is timely and no matter
what my personal feelings are onthe movie, I also think that
it's in this strong positionwhere I feel like it can maybe

(39:18):
get some international supportum to get more nominations than
I would have pegged it for.
I would have I came out of themovie thinking that it's not
gonna be nominated for anything.
Very difficult.
Um, even if you know BestActress is sort of slim for
competition.
But the more I think about itand the more I see that it's
kind of recovered, for example,I know it did pretty well, I

(39:39):
think, in this short list forthe European Film Awards.
And so I would not be surprisedif some international appeal for
the film is gonna help the movieresonate in a in a bigger way at
the Oscars.
And so I think you think yousaid it, you shouldn't sleep on
the acting categories, thescript category.
I tell you what, after I saw it,and this is why you know they
don't pay me to do these things,but I thought Emma Stone is a

(40:01):
supporting performance.
I did not think it was a leadperformance, not at all.
Um, and I think she would be asurefire nominee for supporting
actress had she been campaignedappropriately.
Um, so I for example, that'sthat's my point of view, um,
that if the campaign knew whatthey were doing, they would
shift her down to supportingactress.

SPEAKER_02 (40:19):
Right.
But I I guess I disagree withthat, but I want to just mention
that we have two differingopinions about the film, and I
think that goes to what I wassaying when I said, you know,
this film stands to be, youknow, have a polarized reaction
from what I believe will bepolarizing for voters, um, which

(40:39):
is going to hurt its case forfor the Academy Awards.

SPEAKER_03 (40:44):
Right.
I mean, we'll see what happens,but I I definitely think that
this is the kind of film where Ithink it'll do well on its way
to getting, I don't know howmany nominations, but it
competing in contemporarycategories is gonna be really
good at the guilds.
I expect Golden Globe, GoldenGlobe nominations, and I expect
SAG nominations.
And so this is one that I wouldnot sleep on, despite I guess

(41:07):
for me, this is one that can gozero and one that can go one and
one that can go as high as evenfive.

SPEAKER_02 (41:14):
I disagree, and like I said, and we're gonna have a
similar opinion about anotherfilm we're gonna talk about
soon.
Um, I think that this is a onenomination or a zero.
Um, and right now my gut sayszero.
And again, this is someone thatliked it quite a bit.
Um I love the ending of thatmovie.
Um, it's one of my favoriteendings of the year so far.

(41:34):
You know, it's very, you know,uh it's it's it's it's very
haunting.
Um and uh yeah, there are a lotof haunting things about that
that film.
Um okay, and next let's talkabout all right.

SPEAKER_03 (41:49):
So let's start digging into the films that I
think most people haven't seen.
Maybe there's a few here thatsome of you have caught up with
already.
Um, but let's start talkingabout the biggest films that
people haven't seen that arebeing pegged as favorites.

SPEAKER_02 (42:02):
Right.
The biggest film that we saw uma couple weeks ago was Hamnet
from Chloe Zhao.
Uh we saw it at a specialscreening.
Um, I will say I adore ChloeZhao as a filmmaker, as a
person.
She's so inspiring to me.
Um, I think she's a masterfilmmaker.
I think her last film, NomadLand, was a masterpiece.

(42:23):
I will say that I liked Hamnet,but I don't think it's her
strongest work.
Um, I think that you know thefilm is emotionally raw.
I think that uh the film stillhas Chloe Zhao's intimate
aesthetic, her soulfulaesthetic, which really I think
brings a lot to the piece.
Um, I think there's a lot ofelegant uh restraint in the

(42:46):
film.
I think it has really goodperformances.
I thought Jesse Buckley wasfucking fantastic.
Um, her best performance yet.
Um, a surefile nominee, asurefile winner in my eyes,
100%.
Um, and she was a huge highlightfor me, as I'm sure she will be
for many people.
Um, I thought The Little Kid wasvery good and very, very

(43:07):
touching.
I think Paul Maskell does a goodjob.
Um, but after seeing the film,and I'm and we'll get into into
your impression of it, afterseeing the film, I will say to
you all right now that I feelvery confident that it will not
beat one battle after anotherfor best picture.
If this is one battle's biggestcompet competition, and I think

(43:29):
it will be, I feel very, veryconfident that one battle will
win that battle.
And after seeing the film, thefirst thing I thought of was
that's it, one battle is thebest picture winner of the year.
And one battle, I believe, willwin best picture and best
director and best screenplay.
I think Paul Thomas Andersonwalks out of this award season

(43:51):
getting three Oscars minimum,and there's just this film is
gonna have its fans, it's goingto be critically acclaimed, but
I don't think it will be able toeclipse the strength, the
momentum, and the quality ofPTA's latest.

SPEAKER_03 (44:11):
I mean, I agree with a lot of what you said.
I think Chloe Zhao is abrilliant filmmaker.
Um, this film is not bad, butI'm not very passionate about
it.
And I don't know how many peoplewill be passionate about it.

SPEAKER_02 (44:24):
Oh, I think so.
I think people will bepassionate about it for sure.
I mean, I'm not saying voters,but the general public, I do
think, will will like it quite abit.

SPEAKER_03 (44:31):
I think that's important because the only way
that I think it can beat onebattle after another is if it
makes 40 to 50 million bucks atthe box office.
Other than that, I think itdoesn't really it won't be able
to be competitive against it.
Um there's a I think this is afilm that at least to me felt
like it was largely umoverstated in terms of its

(44:57):
impact.
Um I think Dusty Buckley'sphenomenal in it.
I think Paul Meskell did notnecessarily give a very specific
William Shakespeare or aspecific take on it.
I thought I thought it was toobroad.
Um, and I I wonder I do wonderif that's gonna affect his
chances, along with him beingalready a nominee in an in for

(45:17):
the lead actor categorypreviously.

SPEAKER_02 (45:18):
Interestingly enough, Shakespeare doesn't do
well in these acting categories.

SPEAKER_03 (45:22):
He does not, and that's very interesting, and so
I would look out for that.
We mean Shakespeare thecharacter the character, yeah,
as Joseph Fines.
Um, and then the other thing isso for example, like I I can't
tell you right now that I'm soldon it being a Surefire costume
nominee or a Surefire productiondesign nominee.
Yeah, I wanted to get into that,and if it does like end up

(45:44):
getting nominated there, it'svery much because it's a best
picture nominee.
It's sort of like someone'sfilling out their ballot.
What am I gonna put?
Well, I saw Ham in it, it's abest picture movie, I cried, so
I'm putting that, as opposed to,for example, you know, Sinners,
which is going to be placedextremely high on those ballots
because as a productiondesigner, it's some of the work

(46:05):
that I remember most.

SPEAKER_02 (46:06):
Right.

SPEAKER_03 (46:06):
And it just so happens that I'm also placing it
on best picture.

SPEAKER_02 (46:09):
I think that's I I think that's a really good
point.
Um, that I'll just jump offreally quick, is that even
though I'm I'm I'm positive asme as everyone is that Ilganai
for Best Picture, and again, Ifeel pretty confident that it
will not win.
When you start to, after you'veseen the film, kind of decipher
what the nominations are goingto be, it's a little bit, I

(46:30):
think, on the lower end for methan what I think people are
thinking or saying.
You know, so it's certainly afilm that will compete for best
picture and it will getnominated, I believe, for
adapted screenplay.
I do think Paul Mesco will getnominated for sure.
I think Jesse Buckley isabsolutely winning.
And I think the film will getnominated for this is where it
gets tricky.
I think the film will getnominated for cinematography,

(46:53):
but it's not one of the top inthe category.
Whereas before I had seen themovie, I thought Lucas Zhaw was
going to be at the very top.
I think he gets this nominationbecause he hasn't got it in yet
and because it's a best picturenominee.

SPEAKER_03 (47:04):
Um, I don't think he's even got it for color yet,
to be honest.
And like he he he should havegotten the color for zone of
interest, but they snubbed him.

SPEAKER_02 (47:11):
Right.
Um, actually, my apologies.
Of course, he's been nominatedfor Ida and for Cold War, but I
think he has the esteem to getinto the category, but I don't
think he'll win the category.
I think he's a fourth or fiftherin that list.
I agree.
I don't know that I see the filmas a slam dunk at all for
costume or for productiondesign.

SPEAKER_03 (47:31):
You know what's interesting when you said that
about cinematography is that Iwas thinking in my mind, um,
yeah, you he's it's like sort ofa fourth or fifth effort, what
you see on the screen.

SPEAKER_02 (47:41):
Well, I mean, it looks beautiful to me,
certainly, but it's it doesn'tcompete with the other things
that he's made.

SPEAKER_03 (47:46):
And I would argue that between the two films that
I remember seeing of his incolor, I'm more impressed with
the zone of interest.
Right, right.
Um, but this was very good too.
But I'm not I'm not knocking itat all.
But what I am saying is if hehas an edge, again, the same way
for production in the costumesign, if they have an edge in
that category, it's becausepeople liked it in Best Picture.
And so the edge of Lucas Zhao inthis category is that he's a

(48:10):
veteran and he's been nominatedtwice already, versus the DP for
Sinners, the DP for one battle,these they have not been
nominated yet.
Right, right.
Um, and so again, just that ideathat Lucas Zhao will get in, the
work is good, the work is solid,but he's going to get in very
much because he just so happensto be Lucas Zhao, who has a

(48:30):
tremendous reputation already,you know.

SPEAKER_02 (48:33):
Right.
Exactly.
And so again, I'm not sure thatI see costume and production
design being a slam dunk at all.
Not that they're poorly done,they're done well, but they're
not typically what they go for,you know.

SPEAKER_03 (48:45):
They're not a standout, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (48:46):
Exactly.
Um, the costume design doesn'tchange very much.
Um, and the production design isvery subtle and a lot of open
spaces.
Um, so it's not typically whatthey go for.
I do think that they'll finallywelcome uh Max Richter into the
original score category.
I as as you know, I'm a huge MaxRichter fan.
I adore his music.

(49:07):
I listen to it nonstop all thetime.
It really uh inspires me andinfluences me creatively.
Um, so I think that he'llfinally get a nomination, but I
also think that his veryrenowned piece features in the
film, features very heavily inthe film and uh in in a pivotal
moment in the film.

(49:28):
I do wonder if that's going tohurt it getting nominated.
Um, I think someone after thefilm confirmed that that
shouldn't be a reason thatshouldn't be something that
disqualifies.

SPEAKER_03 (49:39):
It won't be a factor, which is a shame because
it's not necessarily used,right?
Any less, you know, um chargedor any less, you know,
prominently than it was in arival.
And they sort of canceled thatnomination.
So it is, I agree with you.
It's kind of weird that thatthat it it's it's not
disqualified and they cancompete still.

SPEAKER_02 (49:59):
And then this is be the biggest take that that I
think you and I will say that Ithink might surprise quite a few
people.
But after seeing the film, Ithink you and I feel pretty
confident that Chloe Zhao willbe snobbed for best director.
Um, which I know sounds crazysaying that, and maybe we're
gonna eat our words, but if wedon't, you heard it here first.

(50:20):
And that's because, as you allprobably know, the director's
branch is very uh picky, veryselective, and they're also very
selective about who they let inand how soon after their last
nomination.
That's true for a lot ofcategories, but that's
especially true for BestDirector.
Uh Chloe Zhao has only made onefilm in between Nomad Land and

(50:42):
Um uh Hamnet, and that wasEternals, which wasn't received
well, even though I quite likeit.
Um, and so I just don't think Athat there's enough work in
between that uh directors gonnasay, well, well, let's nominate
her again so soon.
Unfortunately, some of thegender politics come in here
because you know they're notgreat at nominating female

(51:03):
filmmakers anyway.
They're also on a trend oftrying to welcome as many new
filmmakers as they possibly can.
And in this case, they alreadyhave a surefire veteran getting
in who's yet to win an Oscar.
Um, Paul Thomas Anderson, uh,the great the great PTA,
everyone else kind of is new.
Joaquim Trier, Jafar Panahi,Ryan Kugler.

(51:24):
So it's sort of like finallywelcoming them into the club.
I just don't think that thepiece is strong enough to
convince them or persuade themto give her a nomination so soon
after Nomad Land.
And again, it's it's anomination that she ended up
winning.
It's a category she won, bestdirector.
Um, so I think all those thingsare going to come into play and

(51:44):
she will miss out in the bestdirector category for a new
director that hasn't beenrecognized by the branch yet,
that they're eager to recognizefor uh whatever reason.
And that move that thatcontender is most likely going
to be Josh Safty.
And uh maybe we'll get into thisright now.
In that number one, if TimothyChalamet stands to win the best

(52:09):
director award, I mean, the bestactor award, um it's very rare
to have a best actor winner inthe modern age that did not have
a best director nomination for afilm that didn't that didn't
have a best director nomination.
That's number one.
And number two, as we looked atthe research here, um A24 does

(52:30):
really well in this bestdirector category.
So when they have a horse forbest director and it's a big
horse, and you know, if TimothyChalamet is going to win best
actor, then that is a big horse.
Right for A24, they shouldn'tmiss this category.
They shouldn't miss BestDirector.

SPEAKER_03 (52:47):
This goes all the way back to Lenny Abrahamson,
who got in for a room withouthardly any precursors or anyone
thinking that he would.
So I think that's a asignificant factor.
And I think Chloe Zhao is inthat position where she could
easily be leapfrogged.
I don't think it's a sure thing,but after seeing the film,
certainly that's something thatI think about.
I think it's interesting thatyou enjoyed the film, and I feel

(53:09):
that the film is a less than thesum of its parts, and we're sort
of thinking the same way here interms of you know, just the
standing that people are givingit right now, more established
pundits and critics, I think isis overblown.
Um, you know, for example, I wasalways pegging Alfonso
Goncalves, the fantastic filmeditor, getting in for this

(53:31):
film.
He's never been nominated, he'sextraordinary, and he's you
know, you you're gonna recognizehim from his work on Drew
Detective Carol.
But I didn't think that theediting in this film was gonna
resonate very much with voters.
I don't I don't see it gettingan editing nomination.

SPEAKER_02 (53:47):
I I differ.
I do see it getting an editingnomination because I do think
it's gonna end up being onebattle's biggest competitor at
the end of the day.
And so I don't see a, you know,uh a real horse race or you
know, a perceived horse raceunless it gets an editing
nomination.
Um, so just based on its numbertwo status, it's gonna get a

(54:08):
best editing nomination, in myopinion.

SPEAKER_03 (54:09):
But that's my point, is that it feels like a bunch of
the nomination that it's gonnaget is due to its being the
number two movie because it wonthe TIFF award, as opposed to,
you know, had one battle afteranother not ever been the number
one movie.
There's enough editing there foran editor to be stro, you know,
for it to be striking work foran editor.

(54:30):
There's enough cinematographywork for it to strike, you know,
the cinematographer's branch.
The same thing with the soundwork and the score work.
And this is not that.
This is a little bit more likeI'm supposed to put this movie
in best picture, and maybe somepeople, you know, really liked
it enough to be number one ornumber two, but then everything,
you know, follows down fromthat.
It's sort of like um, but youknow, sort of like a triangle.

(54:54):
You get the biggest nominationand the other ones follow as
opposed to what I think onebattle is, which is the reverse
triangle, right?
Which is you get a bunch of thelittle nominations first, and
then before you realize it, yourealize it's been nominated for
so many awards that it's a bestpicture nominee, sort of like
Frankenstein that we were sortof saying, where Frankenstein,
if it's a production designnominee and a costume design
nominee, and a cinematographynominee and a score nominee and

(55:16):
a screenplay nominee, then it'skind of a best picture nominee.
You know, I think the hamnetkind of works the opposite way,
and so beyond the editing thing,I'll say something
controversial.
I don't really expect PaulMeskell to be nominated for
this.
Um, I think he's had atremendous year, but I think
that this is the nomination hegets for being snubbed for After
Sun, but he got in for AfterSun.
And so I don't see Paul Meskellat his young age at this stage

(55:39):
in his career.
He's about to just blow up intobigger projects.
He's just coming off Gladiator,he's gonna be in the Beatles, I
think.
And so I don't think that PaulMesko gets his second nomination
three years after After Sun insupport in a supporting category
for this take on WilliamShakespeare.

SPEAKER_02 (55:58):
I think we've talked about this.
We differ.
I think Paul Mesko willdefinitely get nominated.
I think it's an actor again thatthey uh have their eye on, that
they're eager to nominateseveral times in the future.
Um, I think it helps that it's acategory shift.
We've talked about that severaltimes on our podcast, how how
important it is to be to have acategory shift when you're
gonna, you know, have a repeatnomination, especially so soon.

(56:22):
Um, and I think it really helpsthat he's playing William
Shakespeare.
So we talked about this as wellthat these acting categories
should have a real life figurerepresentation in the nominees.
And so you have one that we arepegging on for best actress, you
gotta you have one that we'repegging for best actor, and he's
really the best shot for bestsupporting actor uh for William

(56:44):
Shakespeare.
Um, and so yeah, I don't see himmissing at all, but I definitely
do not see him winning.
Um, I think before I thoughtthat might be a horse race
between Staten Skarsgard um andPaul Mesko.
Now I firmly think this isStaten Skarsgard's to win full
stop all the way.
Um, so yeah, we differ there.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (57:04):
I mean, we'll we'll see what happens, but I I think
that this is gonna survive on,you know, the loyalties of the
British contingent and you know,the people who do like it and
respond to it very well.
Um, but on in in my eyes, Ithink this is a movie that maybe
gets seven, and I can see itgoing lower.

SPEAKER_02 (57:24):
I think that it's a sevener also.
I think it gets seven as well.
I think it's picture, twoacting, screenplay, that's four,
right, score, that's five, twomore.

SPEAKER_03 (57:33):
Yeah.
And I mean, it could getnominated for something like
production design or costumedesign, but it would only be
nominated because they saw itbecause it's the best picture
movie, and because they couldn'tthink of someone else to to
recognize.
Right.
Um, and so I think that's wherewe're at with Hamnet.
I will say this everythingchanges if it makes 40 to 50

(57:54):
million at the box office.
If it can make the uh sameamount of money that Conclave
made, everything changes.
Because there is this othernarrative, you know, beyond the
Paul Thomas Anderson finallywinning one, which is focus
features, finally winning bestpicture.
Right.
And in my opinion, this filmjust falls below the Brobeck
Mountains and the Tars in termsof how excellent the films are.

(58:16):
It's a little bit more likeBelfast, right?
And can it sort of be thesentimental counterpart to win
Best Picture?
Yeah, my gut says no.

SPEAKER_02 (58:26):
I would definitely not put it on par with Belfast.
It's better.
No, it's certainly better.
I wouldn't, I did not likeBelfast.
Right.
Um, for me, it's a very goodfocus features film, it's a good
Chloe Zhao film, it's just notthe best film of the year.

SPEAKER_03 (58:40):
Yeah, it's I don't think it's the one that focused
features should be putting ontheir banner.
I think there's BroadbackMountain, there's Tar, there's
Lost of Translation.
Hamnet is a solid film.
Right.
And I think that's that's whatperiod for me.
Okay.
Um well, I think the next movieto talk about is also one um
that we were very fortunate tosee uh, which is the testament

(59:03):
of Ann Lee.
Right.
Um hasn't been screened verywidely.
It just really got a teaser theother day.
Yeah, you know, I think theirpromotion has been very, very
quiet.
I'm actually pretty happy thatwe got to see it before the
teaser.

unknown (59:17):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (59:18):
You know, I love I love experiencing a film, you
know, before you see any footageof it whatsoever.

SPEAKER_03 (59:23):
Yeah, you know what?
What's funny is that speaking ofHamnet, I haven't even seen the
new trailer for Hamnet becausepeople said to avoid it if you
hadn't seen it yet.
Yeah, I did.
Um, should people avoid theteaser for Ann Lee if they
haven't?

SPEAKER_02 (59:34):
No, no, right?
No, but I do think it gives youuh I think it was a good teaser,
and I think it gives you a nice,you know, very uh quick
impression of what you're gonnaget into.

SPEAKER_03 (59:45):
Okay.
Okay, so we screened An Lee.
Um it's a lot of movie.
It's there's a bunch of moviecramped into that film.
I will say what'd you think?

SPEAKER_02 (59:57):
I'll say that to me, I it's one of my favorite films
of the year.
I think it was I was uhflabbergasted.
I was astounded by the boldnessand the vision.
It was a staggering uh it was astaggering vision.
Um it was at times uh radiant itwas ravishing um it was

(01:00:19):
surprising um you really see thesoul of a filmmaker on it you
know the creativity theirbrilliance uh their boldness um
and it was just a a a really uhyou know just an incredible
experience it was searing uhthere's a there's a ferocious

(01:00:41):
energy to it it's also strangeit's at times kind of surreal um
it's thrilling you know it'swhat you said it's it's it's
jam-packed and it's one of thoseexperiences where I feel like
you really get your money'sworth because there's just so
much there to unpack and toexperience um I'll say as

(01:01:01):
someone that clearly loved ityou know um well before I get
into that what did you think Ithink it's I love it I mean I
think we're like yin yin and yinright now um I really admired
the movie um I will I prefer themovie to Hamnet I think Anne Lee
is better um it's a littleoverwhelming I think I love that

(01:01:26):
about it I yeah and I I I thinkthat's part of the point and I
can appreciate that um I didn'tlike the script for the first
half and I liked the script forthe second half um I think it
could have I just think it couldhave been written better um it
could have been a more completescript a more complete
screenplay um but I do think itends you know incredibly

(01:01:50):
powerful and I think that secondhalf of the movie I'm was really
taken with it I um I I I agreewith you I think the ending is
incredible I'll say that I thinkAmanda Seyfried is incredible in
this movie I think it's one ofher finest performances and I
think you and I felt verysimilar that when we were done
here after this watching thisfilm I don't see we didn't see

(01:02:11):
how Amanda Seyfried doesn't geta best actress nomination out of
this um I will say that eventhough it's the kind of
performance that kind of likelike and we'll reference this I
think as we discuss it kind oflike Spencer she can miss the
sag.
She may miss the sag right 100%no she just expect her to miss
the sag.
Yeah she just probably will notmiss the Oscar because just you

(01:02:32):
know if you tune into the filmyou're just going to admire so
much of what's there the craftthe quality um even it's one of
those performances where I feellike even if you dislike the
film you're just going to admirethe performance at the center.

SPEAKER_03 (01:02:47):
But I'll also say oh go ahead well no what I was
going to say was we had sort ofdiscussed I had alluded I had
alluded to this after we hadseen it um which is one thing
that I really liked about thefilm is that it's kind of an
unorthodox musical in the sensethat it's not wicked at all or
Amelia Perez or Lemise Rob orChicago.

(01:03:10):
To me something that I reallyloved about the piece is that
like it reminds me of a lot ofthe musicals that were going on
in the 70s which were like verycounterculture and it's almost
like how can you make this amusical but then you have hair
right and um uh Phinean'sRainbow is also great and even
something like 1776 um which isanother musical that I kind of

(01:03:32):
like but like this sort of likemelding between politics and a
lens on society um and thesebigger overarching themes sort
of infusing that with musicthat's what it sort of reminded
me of and I I kind of loved thatabout it.

SPEAKER_02 (01:03:49):
I'll also say that for me the biggest takeaway for
me was just how compassionatethe film is and how uh the the
the the the magnitude ofcompassion that it has for its
subject and the movement thatit's chronicling to me was
really hard to describe but thebest word I can use is

(01:04:12):
inspiring.
It was very inspiring to me.
Um and uh and it really was verybeautiful to behold you know
that that sort of sacred uhcompassion and empathy that she
had for her subject um Mona.
Yeah Mona Fasfold and um whatyou know the the compassion that
she has towards Anne Lee andtowards this movement you know

(01:04:35):
it was just really beautiful tosee and it really touched me
really it really touched me.

SPEAKER_03 (01:04:39):
I mean I I I will say this now that we've said
that is the movie ended andthere was no standing ovation no
you know applause ringingthrough the theater everyone was
I think in thought I will say I100% I agree with you I think
that the this is going to bewithout a doubt a polarizing

(01:05:01):
film.

SPEAKER_02 (01:05:02):
There will be people who see it and feel like I do
and uh and like you do andthere'll be other people who see
it and dislike it very much.
I do not see how this film willget a huge theatrical audience.
I was thinking about this beforewe were paring you know if a
film like Kiss of the SpiderWoman did so poorly um and I

(01:05:22):
think that film has a lot ofaccessibility to it I don't see
how this film does you know 10times better than Kiss of the
Spider Woman the only differenceis that you know this is a$10
million this is a 10 millionbudget and Kiss of the Spider
Woman is a 30 million budgetalso the history maybe like
maybe some history people arereally going to be taken with
ooh it's a it's a shaker it's amusical possibly I certainly
feel that we saw it with a lotof people and it felt like the

(01:05:44):
vast majority of people therewere as you sat in thought
possibly a bit overwhelmed youknow kind of like okay all right
what did I just experience youknow some people have mentioned
perplexed perplexed some peoplehave mentioned walkouts there
was a couple walkouts and acouple it wasn't it wasn't
anything I think supersignificant but I think I feel

(01:06:05):
like you could feel the energyin the room was like you know
one of you know uh beingperplexed yeah uh in a way it's
a demanding film I will say 100%demanding like it has a very
particular wavelength and if youget on it you're gonna be in for
one hell of a ride.

SPEAKER_03 (01:06:21):
Right.
Um but if you're like if you'refighting it every minute then
it's just gonna be a veryfrustrating experience.

SPEAKER_02 (01:06:28):
Yeah and and I so I understand the people who saw it
at Venice and had and said thatthis is this year's Amelia Perez
you know I completely disagreein the sense that this is a much
better film than Amelia Perez'sbut I will agree in the sense
that it will polarize people andI don't see this film amassing
this fan base you know outsideof critical acclaim and critics

(01:06:52):
and cinephiles you know verystrict cinephiles who have a you
know wide you know palette so tospeak um I think general people
who check it out are not goingto like it right um and I will
say that as great as AmandaSeyfried is in it I think she
greatly benefits from beingagain one of the very few

(01:07:12):
contenders in her category to bea real life person.
And like I said you always haveto uh presume that the Oscars
are going to include a real lifefigure the only times they don't
is when it's literallyimpossible to do so um and uh
after a Venice bow and havingthe critical claim that this

(01:07:33):
film will certainly have it willmake several top 10 lists it's
making mine um even with all ofthat I do think that Amanda Safe
Reed benefits from the lack ofreal characters real people real
figures real historical figuresin her category and if there had
if there were better optionsmore accessible options she

(01:07:54):
would miss out as great as theperformance is um I I think
what's really helping her rightnow is that and that leads me
into the the other thing I wantto say which is that as someone
who loved the movie I reallydon't see this film getting
nominated for many awards.
In fact I see it gettingnominated for only an actress

(01:08:15):
award um despite you know allthe great things that are on
there um I see it being a onenomination for Amanda Sayfried
and um I don't know I you knowyou you have a you have a
different this is why I love itI love the yin yang of it um
because it's not gonna make mytop films of the year.

SPEAKER_03 (01:08:34):
I I I don't think the comparisons to Amelia Perez
are unjust in the sense thatagain I'm not knocking either
films in the sense that they'reboth very ambitious films that
are extremely successful in someways and extremely messy in
other ways.
So I I did enjoy the film.
I enjoyed Amelia Perez as wellum I understand the shortcomings

(01:08:57):
of it or I I feel like I seesome shortcomings in in in each
um but what's interesting hereis that we're on like on total
opposite you know ends of thespectrum because after seeing
the film I thought yes AmandaSeyfried is undeniable it helps
that she's a previous nominee ithelps that she's a real person
but there's again there's justtoo much movie in front of a

(01:09:19):
voter's eyes where I can'treally see it missing in a bunch
of other categories.
So for example in my opinion yesAmanda Seyfried will be
nominated despite possiblymissing a sag.
But I don't see how the filmisn't a factor in costume design
or production designcinematography score song.

(01:09:42):
So to me this is more of a sixnomination movie and I really do
think that if they know whatthey're doing and I have every
reason to doubt that they do umthis is the kind of movie that
Fox Searchlight back when it wasFox Searchlight would probably
be able to get in to a 10 bestpicture.

(01:10:03):
You know if there's if there hasto be 10 they would probably be
able to get this in FoxSearchlight is now searchlight
so I don't know how capable ornot they are of doing that but
there's again just so much moviehere.
And I think it's it's also atimely piece and I think there's
a a a it's a a a conversationpiece and so if they really knew

(01:10:27):
what they were doing or if thiswasn't for example Searchlight
and instead A24 bought thismovie like they bought the
Brutalist last year I think thisis a seven to eight nomination
movie.

(01:10:48):
I'm not saying that at all but Iam saying that the movie is
there.
You just have to campaign itright.
I don't think that they will butif they do I think it's a six
seven eight nomination movie.

SPEAKER_02 (01:11:00):
Again we talked about this that to me sounds
crazy based on what I saw and Ithink that things like it doing
poorly at the box office which Ithink will happen um because
it's just not the kind of filmthat I think is accessible
enough to enough uh audience uhgeneral audiences um will have a
factor will play a factor Ithink we saw a little bit of

(01:11:21):
that in our screening you knowum you know the sort of tepid
response afterwards and I thinkthe crowd that we saw with felt
like they were excited to to seewhat it was all about this
Venice you know stunner right umthere was a very tepid reaction
and I think we saw glimpses ofthat at at the actual Venice
film festival ceremony where itfailed to win a single thing.

(01:11:42):
And after seeing the movie againthere's a lot of movie here so I
have a hard time thinking thatit couldn't place anywhere and
that one award it was very easyfor it to win was a best actress
award.
No I can't win that I mean Ithink it's just she's too
American I don't know IAlexander Payne is a jury head
so yes I think that she couldhave won best actress I think

(01:12:03):
she was the favorite to win bestactress I think the fact that
the film walked out empty handedI think just lends further
fodder to this idea that yeahthis is going to be a hard movie
for a lot of people to love.
Admire yes love that's adifferent story and I also think
it doesn't help that you knowthe filmmakers the collaborators

(01:12:26):
on the piece have yet to benominated you know there's not a
lot of known you know uhfilmmakers that have have have
been nominated or have been veryclose to getting nominated in
for example categories likecostume design and production
design and dot hurts I think afilm for example that was able
to do something like that wasPoor Things where it got you
know a costume designer thathadn't been there before and

(01:12:49):
production designer all in onego you know that was a best
picture nominee um and and I'mpegging this to not be able to
be a best picture nominee butthat also brings me to this
other thing that I was thinkingabout which is this film reminds
me a lot of Jackie in a waywhich is we're gonna piece on
that right uh which is also wasalso a searchlight pick that
they acquired out of Venice eventhough that actually won

(01:13:10):
something at Venice um yeah andthat if you see Jackie and you
are able to appreciate theamount of skill and filmmaking
the the artistry in that movie Iremember seeing that movie and
thinking how the hell is thisnot a a surefile best picture
nominee I think that film was isamazing.
That film is incredible rightand it walked out with three

(01:13:31):
nominations right um uh and andand and search that got snubbed
that year completely from a bestpicture nomination yeah and so
um I feel something a similarenergy here you know people who
saw Jackie we saw it at the NewYork film festival there were a
lot of people who were very iffyabout it they weren't they
didn't love it you know andthat's a film that was also very

(01:13:52):
bold in its approach and youknow had a very artistic sort of
vision for a biopic um aboutJackie Kennedy um people were
expecting something elsecompletely so it's you know I
this film reminds me a lot ofthat and I think it stands to
repeat the same sort of destinyyou know a lot of film
championed by critics loved bycritics many top 10 lists many

(01:14:15):
accolades but at the end when itcomes to the voting body they're
just going to admire it morethan they love it and the place
where it can really make itsmark is such a complicated and
dearthy category like bestactress.

SPEAKER_03 (01:14:28):
I think that's a fair comparison.
I absolutely believe that's afair comparison comparing it to
Jack E both in the film it isand what kind of potential it
has with Oscar voters.
I guess I'm just seeing a lackof competition this year that
was not around in 2016 when whenJackie missed maybe I'm
responding to that um I I agreeI I would have seen Jackie and I

(01:14:49):
would have thought it was a youknow a six nominee movie seven
nominee movie and and it clearlywasn't um even though again it
had all the potential to be umso it could very well end up the
way that you're saying but justin my gut I I find it difficult
to believe that a costumedesigner or a production
designer is going to have toconsider Hamnet and the

(01:15:10):
testament of Anne Lee and wouldever favor Hamnet.
I do find difficulty at the sameI mean even the cinematographer
who again Lucas has a tremendousrepundation and does excellent
work here the whole 70millimeter of it all the whole
um excuse me the whole Vistavision of it all for Anne Lee I

(01:15:32):
think makes it extremelycompetitive.
That's what I think but we'llsee what we'll see what happens.

SPEAKER_02 (01:15:37):
I don't know I I I guess yeah we I disagree I feel
like this film exists in the inthe in the realm of like Brady
Corbet's you know Vox Lux andBrady Corbet's you know child of
leader um I haven't seen MonaFazfold's last film um uh the
world to come the world to comeyou know but it's certainly one

(01:15:58):
of those you know pieces that isvery uh again just bold
experimental in its approach andyou know there's a reason why
their brutalist got in and thoseother films by Brady Corbet
didn't um so so and I think itdoesn't help that she was just
there that she got nominatedMona Fast followed for
screenplay.
So it's sort of like I thinkthere will be a feeling from

(01:16:20):
voters as is often the caseafter you've just been nominated
you know do I really need tonominate them so soon um after
just last year.

SPEAKER_03 (01:16:28):
And that's that's true for a lot of contenders
this year.
Yeah.
We'll we'll we'll find out howthat happens.
I'm gonna be very curious to seewhat the reception is when more
more people see it here in inthe US um I think the next one
to talk about is a little bit ofa sleeper um which we both kind
of saw and here we're kind of onthe same we're in the same
wavelength.

SPEAKER_02 (01:16:48):
Yeah so we we saw Nuremberg which did pretty well
at the box office I have to saydoing well doing well I mean
really modestly budgeted um gota great opening crowd we we
actually saw with two differentcrowds right and both of our
crowds were really into it andvery much an adult audience that
was excited to watch an adulthistorical drama on screen and

(01:17:12):
really enjoyed the thought aboutthe subject matter about this
subject about this serioussubject matter historical
subject matter I will say yeahexactly the film in my opinion
you know is very flawed it's nota film that I love by any by any
stretch of the imagination Ithink there's a lot of problems
um but when it comes to thepredicting game it's not really

(01:17:34):
about what movies you love whatyou don't it's about seeing the
bigger picture and the biggerpicture here is that this film
is doing well and it's doingwell in an environment where all
the films are falling likeflies.
Yeah you're talking about likeexactly yeah so um it helps that
it's modestly budgeted but it'sno small feat that it's doing
well and that it has good wordof mouth and that people are
coming out of the film reallyenjoying it and liking it and

(01:17:56):
being moved by it don't sleep onthat that matters um it's uh
about a topic that is very Oscarfriendly um it stars uh actors
that are very uh that theacademy knows and respects Oscar
winners Oscar winners um uh soin Sony Picture Classics Sony

(01:18:17):
Picture Classics knows how tocampaign their shit they know
how to get their movie in frontof voters' eyes and a lot of the
people that we're see that wesaw the film with and that that
are enjoying the film are kindof you know the voting body of
the academy yeah older older umuh very familiar with that
historical moment they like amore a more conventional film

(01:18:38):
they don't like an Anne Lee theylike a conventional film well
told in a very um traditionalway that's you know very
Hollywood right and so despitemm my several issues with the
film again I wasn't a big fan ofit um and critically it's very
borderline it's like a 61 onMetacritic um in this kind of
competition where we'reconsidering films like the

(01:19:00):
Testament of Ann Lee and Bugoniawhich I think are gonna stand to
be very polarizing films likeAvatar and Wicked that have
already populous films.
Yeah populist films that butthat have already been there
before and we're still unsurehow you know how how much voters
are eager to welcome them backso soon.
Films like uh Weapons which Ithink is surging but it's also

(01:19:22):
really not their cup of tea.
Maybe too edgy.
Yeah not really what theytypically go for.
Surprises that people haven'treally picked up on yet like the
vo the the voice of Hin Rajab uhwhich has all the ingredients to
get in but will WatermelonPictures be able to pull that
huge feat you know when you lookat the field you have to start

(01:19:42):
wondering if a a a well-likedfilm by Sony Picture Classics
about this topic can't muster anomination in the same way that
maybe a movie like uh September5th was very damn close to doing
it.
Yeah it ended up only getting ana screenplay nomination but it
was close to getting a bestpicture nomination and I think

(01:20:04):
this film has the benefit thatit's being more watched than
that film was and it's beingmore um you know September 5th
had some complications with thatwith uh you know the Israel and
Palestine conflict that was yeahat a fever pitch.
Right.
Um you know this film you knowhas a lot of timely themes you
know uh has some uh explorationof you know authoritarianism uh

(01:20:28):
immigration uh anti-Semitism sothere's just a lot there that I
think these audience members areresponding to right um and you
know I just got the feeling fromwatching it that if certain
kinds of voters you put them infront of that movie they're
going to respond very positivelyand they're gonna be eager to

(01:20:48):
put it on their ballots.

SPEAKER_03 (01:20:49):
Like like the audiences that we saw with so
not only is it tackling thatdifficult subject matter and not
only is it you know a historicalpiece that is you know more
timely than ever the idea of youknow people in power being held
accountable um right across theworld but certainly in the US um
audiences are enjoying watchinga film that you know tackles

(01:21:12):
serious material and that'ssomething that I think the
industry is genuinely going tobe excited about.
Yeah that's an old small featurebecause that doesn't happen
anymore.
And so like we we were talkingabout it like you know September
5th something that I thinkdidn't help was that as great as
a movie as it is it's also avery small intimate movie that
I'm not sure how many eyesactually got in front of it.

(01:21:34):
You know there are there aremajor audiences watching this
film right now.
I think it's definitely going toget an IFUS Guild nomination in
PGA it's definitely I think itwill definitely get an eye for a
globe drama.
Yeah I mean so like I I do thinkthe stars will align for it um
and then you know the otherthing about it I think is not
only is the talent on screenfamiliar to voters but I also

(01:21:57):
think that this film does a goodjob of sort of bridging you know
American voters andinternational voters right I
mean European voters I think aregoing to enjoy the film and
appreciate sort of the Hollywoodretelling of this but it's a
subject matter that's importantto them too.
The Nuremberg trials.
Right.
And so I think that's gonna helpit has that international appeal

(01:22:17):
even if it's not internationalco-production what did you feel
about the quality of the movie?
Are you like me that yeah Idefinitely feel like it's um an
uneven movie and there arethings I you know what I think
yeah it's very slight biggest Ithink the biggest criticism I
had of the movie and the biggestcompliment I had of the movie I
told you about after I had seenit which is this movie could

(01:22:38):
have been great.
Like the story the actual storyand and and was the the his the
the history that this is basedon could have been an amazing
movie.
I just don't think they got theright director and I think the
script can be sharper.
For example you loved RussellCrowe in it I think I would have
preferred a German actor I thinkRussell Crowe was the strongest

(01:23:01):
performance in the piecepersonally.
Right and I I loved MichaelShannon in it right um and and
so and I'm not to say that RamiMalik did a bad job but I also
feel like his character couldhave been could have had more
depth like especially for wherethe film ends I just feel like
that's my big takeaway from thefilm is it's not bad.
I get why people are liking it.

(01:23:21):
I don't dislike it um there arethings to enjoy about it and
certainly the history of itright is extremely comp um
compelling.
Right the historic parallels tothe moment we're living in is
extremely compelling.
That said my only knock is heyyou give this movie to Ridley
Scott and Ridley Scott could beyou know he could finally win
best director technically Ithink I think it's pretty poor

(01:23:43):
in my opinion but again I can'tI can't uh uh avoid that it just
has a lot of the rightingredients um that's doing well
yeah um so don't sleep on itright do I feel positive that it
makes that sign for best pictureno I don't um I'm not sure you
do either but I think people aresleeping on it yeah you know I
think that it's a biggercontender than some people think

(01:24:05):
I think we had talked about italso like what are they gonna
prefer a movie that has donewell with audiences that's about
a serious topic um that's makingsome money um that isn't you
know completely being trashed bycritics either that has some
historic significance and isalso from a different studio
right or doubling and triplingnominations for Neon and Warner

(01:24:28):
Brothers and Focus.

SPEAKER_02 (01:24:30):
That's the other problem that people are coming
up with lists that give Netflixtwo nominations that give Warner
Brothers two nominations thatgive Focus Features two
nominations and that's not theway these things pan out I mean
I certainly think it's the kindof year where a studio two will
double up and get more than onemovie in but I don't expect four
or three studios to get twomovies in it's just not the way

(01:24:50):
things pan out.
Yeah we need some new blood hereright we need some new studios
here and so when you look at itthat way you don't have that
many you know uh primedcontenders you take out Netflix
you take out Warner Brothers youtake out um you know uh focus
features you know you're leftwith a smaller pile of films
you're left with Avatar Disneyyeah you're left with Nuremberg

(01:25:14):
you know uh just a smaller groupof films and so I there's a
really good chance that we endup with at least one or two
different studios getting intothis this pile.

SPEAKER_03 (01:25:24):
Yeah and and I I I think right now that Nuremberg
stands a great chance for thosetwo awards you mentioned.
I think adapted screenplay likeI said right I can see Bugonia
going for one nomination five orI can see it going for zero.
I do think people are going tohave an issue with that third
act and Nuremberg is solidenough as a script and as a
piece of history I made thecomment to you which again

(01:25:46):
people who have this is theirjob and this is their profession
they have decided to campaignRussell Crowe for lead I thought
it was a supporting performance.
I don't think it's a leadperformance I think the lead
performance is Ramy and theymade a tremendous mistake by not
having Russell in supporting hewould have gotten in there
without a doubt in my opinion II think he would have gone into

(01:26:06):
supporting I did I did see himthough as a lead personally from
a screen time perspective to mehe is the supporting performance
that said I saw the film and Isaid I don't know if Michael
Shannon can miss for thisbecause again he has so many
great parts that are emblematicto sort of the theme that they
want to drive across toaudiences and Michael Shannon is

(01:26:28):
such a respected actor MichaelShannon is the kind of actor who
will get in with very littlesupport for any of his
performances whether it'sRevolutionary Road Nocturnal
Animals he doesn't need a wholehell a whole hell of a lot of
nominations precursors to crackthat top five and in this this
year's top five where we saidremember we said William
Shakespeare is the real guy Iwould not be surprised if the

(01:26:50):
real guy is Michael Shannon andhad they been smart enough to
put Russell Crowe in supportingthe real guy would have
definitely been Russell Crowewho has not been there since uh
a beautiful mindful mind and heshould have been there
technically for Cinderella manit's been 20 years now.

SPEAKER_02 (01:27:05):
Right.
So uh you know I guess wedisagree there you know I don't
see Michael Shannon getting infor this I think that Russell
Crowe has the babyest role umand I think you're right in
terms of screen time he mightnot come across as the lead but
I think that in terms ofpresence and in terms of sort of
being the sort of uh cornerstoneof this hurricane I think that's

(01:27:25):
why I think he he feels like alead um I wasn't crazy about
Rami Malik's performance in itpersonally the character's not
great I mean I mean the actualreal person sounds like
fantastic material.
Yeah so I'm not really sure Ithink acting can be on the table
but we have to see how thatdevelops.
I think it's by no means a surebet for acting um and I again I

(01:27:46):
think if someone gets in it'sRussell Crowe but I do think
watch out for a best picturebest screenplay scenario here
where you know gets into that10th spot and steals a
screenplay and picturenomination.

SPEAKER_03 (01:27:57):
Especially if people keep watching it.
Yeah especially like intoThanksgiving like if he keeps
making money definitely everyoneis sleeping on this movie now
we're gonna go ahead and say itfirst you should not be sleeping
on this movie.
And this movie could very wellend up rounding out the top 10.
Right.

SPEAKER_02 (01:28:12):
And I think that that would make me want to
mention uh this other film thatyou and I have been a little bit
more positive about than we wereum previously and I think people
are maybe starting to get onthis train but at the same time
not enough people and that'sthat what if Train Dreams is a

(01:28:33):
bigger movie here uh to place inuh Best Picture I know we just
finished saying that we don'tlike studios doubling up I don't
and I I firmly think thatNetflix thinks their big push is
Frankenstein and it haseverything it needs to get an
eye for Best Picture.
But what if again I'm I'm tryingto wonder and you said a very
good very interesting thing theother day you said you know what

(01:28:57):
is the independent spirit awardwinner in this list.
Right.
You know it's not one battle andit's not right does it qualify.
Right it's not Marty Supremeit's probably not Hamnet because
I don't think it it has a Ithink it's a bigger budget.
Yeah I'm not sure it's gonnaqualify but even if it did I'm
not sure it would win.
No yeah I I think it woulddefinitely win if it was if it

(01:29:17):
qualified but I don't think itdoes.
I think it's in the upper 35range.

SPEAKER_03 (01:29:21):
The idea that an independent spirit award can go
to producers um Steven Spielbergand Sam Mendy's is kind of yeah
out of this world.

SPEAKER_02 (01:29:28):
That's why I think it's not going to qualify.
Sinners is not going to do itWiki is certainly not going to
do it.
If I had legs we could do it butit's not going to get anywhere
near best picture.
Right.
Um Frankenstein's not going todo it um it it was just an
accident doesn't count andyou're just sentimental value
because Nuremberg could do it ifNuremberg is you know made
modestly enough I guess butthere's no way that they're
gonna there's something so whenyou start looking at that you

(01:29:51):
start to wonder listen what inthis uh hypothetical best
picture list what is theindependent independent spirit
vote?
And if we look at it that way,one of the things that we were
using to come up with an answerto that is okay, well, who got
nominated for the Gotham?
What is the independent spiritmovie that got nominated at the
Gotham?
Because we would figure that theIndependent Spirit Award winner

(01:30:15):
for Best Feature would at leastshow up at the Gotham Best
Picture, especially if there are10 spots.
In theory.
And if you'd looked at that andyou took out movies like Bogonia
and One Battle, films that can'tcompete because they don't
qualify.
You're left with very, very tinyfilms like East of Wall and
Familiar Touch.
Lurker.
Lurker.

SPEAKER_03 (01:30:35):
Um of which are first films, by the way.

SPEAKER_02 (01:30:37):
So Testament of Ann Lee, and we've just discussed,
you know, how difficult of asell that's going to be for Best
Picture.
Um, you're left with two movies.
You're left with Sorry, Baby,and Train Dreams.
I know people might be temptedto say, Sorry, baby.
We saw it at Sundance.
By now, most of you haveprobably seen it.
It's just not their thing.
It's very stripped.
You know, I think for theOscars?

(01:30:58):
For the Oscars.

SPEAKER_03 (01:30:58):
Oh, there's no way.
Unfortunately.
Unfortunately, it just doesn'thave a support.

SPEAKER_02 (01:31:02):
Right.
We like that movie.
And you're really, if you takeout Sorry Baby, you're left with
Train Dreams.
And here's a movie that criticsreally like.
People who are watching itreally like it.
We saw it with a crowd thatreally liked it.
It's a sell it's based on acelebrated novel from a
celebrated writer.
Um, it's from the team of SingSing that missed out on Best
Picture last year.

(01:31:23):
So this is sort of like apossible makeup nomination for
Sing Sing, which technicallyshould have been nine for Best
Picture because it got threenominations, got more
nominations than uh the NickelBoys.
Nickel Boys.
Um uh so they like that team.
And again, it's well received,it has the source material.
Um and in a way, it's a veryTerrence Malik-like vehicle.

(01:31:49):
Um, but it's a little bit moreaccessible than a Terence Malik.
Right, than a Terence Malikfilm.
You know, Terence Malik is myfavorite filmmaker.
Um uh, and you know, we're gonnaget into this in a little bit.
You know, I was okay with themovie.
I I like it quite a bit, but Idon't love it like some people
do.
I think you really loved it.
Yeah, I did.
Um but I really feel like thisfilm has the ability to connect

(01:32:17):
with audiences and with voters,and that it has kind of
everything it needs as well,like Nuremberg, um, except it's
more critically acclaimed, um,to surprise here.
You know, do I think thatNetflix is gonna get two films
in?
Possibly not, but do I thinkthat of their of their slate,
the film to really watch out foris this film over something like

(01:32:40):
Jay Kelly, which is just youknow, kind of, you know, oh has
only okay critics.
You know, it's about somethingthat they tend to like and they
nominate often, you know, filmsabout themselves and the
industry, but I think there'salso a shift happening where
maybe they're a little bit more,you know, prone to, you know,
kind of been there, done thatwith that kind of that kind of
theme.
Um that a movie like this issort of soft spoken and uh

(01:33:05):
lyrical and poignant andaccessible enough to speak to
enough people to place it highon their ballots.

SPEAKER_03 (01:33:14):
I mean, I I completely agree.
I adored the film, and we werelucky enough to see it on a big
screen, which um we recommendanyone who has the opportunity
to do so.
Um I think to me the only thingthat's really hurting this film
is technically that it's Netflixand they're just so packed with
bigger movies, but there's nodoubt in my mind from what I've
seen this far, and again, Ihaven't seen Jay Kelly, um, that

(01:33:36):
this is the best movie thatNetflix has on their roster.
It's just also the quietestfilm.
Um but I also kind of mentionedto you like, are we maybe on the
cusp of seeing this trend ofhaving this year sort of really
mirror a lot of last year in thesense that like you have um a

(01:34:00):
lot of narratives and a lot ofstories and a lot of
personalities and and artistscoming right from last year into
possibly this year, um, andmaybe getting similar traction
or or or traction or nominationsthat complement what they got
last year.
And so, for example, you'reright, these these filmmakers
and and this director, ClintBentley, you know, he's he's

(01:34:23):
part of the team that workedwith Greg Quadar on SyncSing,
they should have been in BestPicture.
And so, is that maybe gonna helpthem factor into maybe getting
into that top 10 this year?

SPEAKER_01 (01:34:33):
Right.

SPEAKER_03 (01:34:33):
Um, again, you have the whole Timothy Chalamet
thing, which is whatever hewins, if if he wins this year,
there's no doubt in anyone'smind that it has everything to
do with the fact that he cameincredibly close for playing Bob
Dylan, not even a whole year awhole year ago.
Yeah, um, you have Al Fanningwho could maybe get in this
year, um, and and and it haseverything to do with just the
career she's built up and thefact that she didn't get in last

(01:34:54):
year for a complete unknown.
You have the whole Wicked movie,um, you have Mona Fastfold and
Brady Corbey there again.
And so there's this, I there'sthis this trend.
Is the are the Austrias gonnawant to say, I don't want to
nominate anyone from last yearor just as little as possible?
Or are they gonna say, you know,I'm a big fan of what they did

(01:35:15):
last year, and they're sort ofjust proving me right in terms
of I just like what they'redoing, and I should have done
these things last year, and Ididn't do it, and so now it's my
chance to sort of correct myselffor not having done them.
Right.
And so I think Train Dreams maybe able to do that.
We also talk about this ideaabout I think after seeing it, I
think it's a surefire screenplaynominee.

(01:35:37):
Um, I thought it was a surefirecinematography nominee.
To me, the only film fromNetflix besides New Ville Vogue,
which is you know shot ummonochromatically in black and
white and even on film, otherthan that, the best looking film
that Netflix has is really TrainDreams.
And so if we're so if what we'resaying is that whoever Netflix
gets into cinematography istheir best picture nominee, I

(01:36:00):
really do feel like Train Dreamsis the best shot they have at
cinematography.
And does it doesn't help thatthe cinematographer, for
example, for Guillermo de ThomasFrankenstein just got nominated?
He just got nominated, he'salready been nominated twice.
Is he really a cinematographerthat the branch is gonna feel is
out of caliber to have nominatedthree times?
Right.
You know, there are there are Ithink Greg Frazier is around the

(01:36:21):
three number, maybe he might beclose to the three number, maybe
a little bit more.
But so are they really gonnathink, you know, that this uh
this deep this cinematographeris is at that level already?
Right.
Um, and so I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 (01:36:34):
I mean I wonder I wonder if you know everyone
thinks like we did that thecinematography nominee for
Netflix that you know has alwaysmade it into Best Picture was
Frankenstein, maybe it'sactually train dreams.

SPEAKER_03 (01:36:47):
Exactly.
One thing we did agree on, whichwas kind of shocking and
surprising because of you knoweverything we had sort of
anticipated before having seenit, we both kind of agree that
Joel Edgerton is fantastic inthe film, but he probably will
not factor in because it's justtoo internalized of a
performance, right?

SPEAKER_02 (01:37:04):
I mean, I did feel that way after seeing it.
I think this is the kind of filmthat's going to speak more to,
you know, writers, for example,some texts, uh, some craftsmen,
um, more than actors.
You know, I think there's a lotof, as you were saying,
internalness to the piece that Ithink is not what the actors

(01:37:25):
typically go for.
That being said, I think JoelEdgerton is a respected actor
and an esteemed actor who hasyet to be nominated.
And again, we're talking aboutpeople getting a bunch of
nominations and some peoplehaven't gotten one yet.
Yeah.
And so, you know, I do thinkthat if he were able to be in
the right vehicle, even if it'snot typically what they go for,
that his the respect for him asan actor could push him into

(01:37:48):
that fifth spot.
Because, you know, we're we'lltalk about this maybe.
You know, I do feel actor hasfour spots locked, right?
And there's really just one spotwe're looking at.

SPEAKER_00 (01:37:56):
Right.

SPEAKER_02 (01:37:56):
And so if there is the love there for train dreams,
he can ride that wave just basedon respect, even if it's not
what the actors typically gofor.
Um, but yeah, after seeing it, Ifelt like you that it's it's
it's it's it's too internal, tooquiet, too subdued to to land
for the actors.

SPEAKER_03 (01:38:12):
The other thing is is that you know, whoever's
campaigning it, and like wesaid, it is Netflix, they really
need to focus their effortbehind it because this is the
kind of film that's quiet enoughwhere I'm not sure it's gonna
crack the most popular titles onNetflix.
Oh, and you gotta keep remindingcritics how great it is, or else
it's not gonna, for example, Ithink it'll do well with
critics, actually.
I mean critics list.
It absolutely needs to, like,there's it cannot miss a it it

(01:38:35):
kind of needs to win thatindependent spirit award.
It can't, it cannot afford it'sso quiet and so intimate of a
film that it cannot afford, forexample, to miss the National
Board of Review.
It can't afford it, you knowwhat I mean?
It really can't afford to missdrama picture at the Golden
Globes, and so you have a lot ofwork to do to make sure that you
get those things, right?

(01:38:55):
Because it is, like I said, aquiet film that audiences could
easily overlook, critics couldoverlook.
The biggest news that it had wasout of Sundance, and that is
extremely old news by now.

SPEAKER_00 (01:39:08):
Right.

SPEAKER_02 (01:39:08):
But I also will say, you know, as much as we're
looking at this possibility ofwell, we need a sort of
independent spirit awardrepresentative um in this best
picture 10.
There usually is one, um, andthat this got the goth that
train dreams got the Gothamnomination, and and that seems
like the most likely pick.

(01:39:28):
I will say that in 2021, wedidn't really have one of those
because the independent spiritpick was technically the lost
daughter, yes, which got theGotham win and got the
Independent Spirit Award win andstill missed out.
Although but but but even eventhe lost daughter did not go out
empty-handed.

SPEAKER_03 (01:39:45):
You're right, it did not go out empty.
It got three pivotalnominations, and one would argue
that between that and Venice, itshould have been in that 10.
They just said, I'm gonnanominate Searchlight instead
because Searchlight isSearchlight.
Um, at the same time, I will saythat I believe Coda was an
independent spirit award nomineethat year.

(01:40:05):
And so you did have was it?
I believe I believe so.
I believe so.
Um, and so you do have, I think,a little bit of overlap there.
And so because the independentspirit awards cannot nominate
one battle after another orMarty Supreme, you and I are
still wondering if they're gonnabe able to nominate Hamnet, you
you should see at least a littlebit of overlap.

(01:40:26):
And Train Dreams is still one ofthose films that that could
potentially do that, right?
So let's go ahead now and jumpinto the other Netflix movie we
saw recently, which people aregonna get a chance to uh take a
look at um as at the end ofNovember, which is Knives Out
Dead Man um Wake Up Dead Man.
Okay, um, what did you think?

SPEAKER_02 (01:40:46):
Um, I really liked it.
You know, I'm a big fan of theKnives Out franchise.
I did think that, well, first ofall, the first Knives Out was
one of my absolutely favoritefilms of 2019.
Uh, it was just such a fuckingfun ride.
Um, I think it took a dip withum Glass Onion, which I thought
was flashier and louder anddidn't really help to bring, you

(01:41:09):
know, the magic of the KnivesOut franchise to the forefront.
But I do think that the thirdinstallment gets closer to
bringing back that magic.
It's a little bit more intimate,it's a little bit smaller in
scale, but more profound anddeeper uh thematically in scale.
Um, I think visually it wasrich.
Um, again, it's it's it's such ajoy to see these, you know, uh

(01:41:33):
amazing um actors workingtogether.
Um, the mystery was very fun.
I had I thought that JoshO'Connor was so good in it.
I thought he was, you know,among the you know best
performances of the Nysafranchise um with Anna de Armas,
you know, who I think was alsogreat in her in her installment.
Um he really stood out to me.

(01:41:53):
I think he's the bestperformance in the piece.
Um, I love Benoit Blanc as well.
As always, uh Josh Brolin did avery good job, and so did Glenn
Close.
Um, I think those were the MVPs.
Um, and I like I said, there'syou know, this this sort of
Edgar Allen Poe-esqueness to it,you know, really I think added
uh a dimension to it that thatthat you know helped in bringing

(01:42:17):
back that magic and and and andmade it stand out to me.
I don't think it supersedes thefirst one for me just yet, but
certainly better than GlassOnion.
Um, and I think it's a verylikely nominee for for
screenplay, but I don't thinkthat it will transcend that.
I don't think that this film isthe one that takes the knives
out franchise into, you know,larger territory.

SPEAKER_03 (01:42:40):
Because they've always sort of been pigeonholed
into a screenplay movieexclusively.
Right.

SPEAKER_02 (01:42:44):
I don't think this is the one that becomes a best
picture nominee and an actingnominee.
You know, um people have beenwhispering and and and and and
sort of insinuating that GlennClose could get in, but really
after seeing it, she does have abig scene.
Um, you know, but it's very tiedto the mystery, you know.
And I just don't think that Isaw enough from any actor to

(01:43:08):
land into an acting nomination.
I think there's a reason whythese films tend to be
overlooked by the actors, eventhough they're amazing actors
giving good performances, andit's just so fun to see them.
But I think the the ensemblenessof it all, you know, kind of
makes it less attractive tosingle out a person because you
walk out thinking, you know,they're of a piece, all of them,
yeah, in a way, or that you hadyou had certain favorites that

(01:43:31):
other people had, otherfavorites.
Um, so I really feel that it's ascreenplay nomination only.

SPEAKER_03 (01:43:37):
I mean, I understand where you're coming from, and I
agree in large part, but I dosee possibly some larger
potential depending on how itarrives.
Um, I think someone had writtenthat this is gonna be the
largest release for Netflix intheaters.
This makes money.
Interesting.
It's becomes a differentconversation.
It could sort of it could reallylaunch the film into a different
place, you know.

(01:43:57):
Sometimes when series orfranchises close, there's a
little bit more of a soft spotfor them.
And so I'm not gonna dismissthat possibility.
But you know, barring that, I dothink it's probably a lock for
screenplay, but I do think itcould be competitive in a
category, for example, likesupporting actress, I think
Glenn Close has enough materialto do it, she certainly has

(01:44:19):
enough esteem to do it.
And if you look at that categoryin general, the issue that we
have with that category thatwe've always had all year all
year long, ever since EmilyBlunt's film has sort of
disappointed, is just you don'thave a great winner.
And so, in the face of nothaving a great winner, can we
just can we throw a bone toGlenn Close to win, who has

(01:44:39):
already said kind of publicly,yeah, it bothers me that haven't
won yet.
And and someone mentioned this,I think, online or something,
and I completely see it.
I think it's completelyappropriate.
I I don't know if you've seen ityet, but when uh Ingrid Bergman
won a supporting actress Oscar,I think, in the 70s for Murder
on the Orient Express, she didnot deserve to win that Oscar.

(01:45:01):
No way, there's no way, but youknow, her being Ingrid Bergman
and her being in that stage ofher of her career really lent
itself to giving her that award.
And so I do think that there'scertainly a play here, if you're
smart, for Netflix to um get inthis category because it's gonna
be so much easier for her to winthan be nominated.
So, like phase one is verydifficult, phase two, the win is

(01:45:24):
actually very easy.
Um, and here's the other thingis that we've talked about the
idea you've brought up a bunchof times, right?
Right, which is that right.

SPEAKER_02 (01:45:32):
Well, I brought up that Netflix has never missed
the best supporting actorscategory, except for I believe
2022, where they didn't have alot of good contenders.
That was the year thatinterestingly enough, they had
Glass Onion.
They had Janelle Monet, right,right, who they couldn't push
into the supporting actresscategory.

SPEAKER_03 (01:45:49):
Who tell me who technically by that point had
enough of a of a sort offilmography to justify her
inclusion there?
Yeah, she was in hidden figures,she was in Moonlight.
You could argue she was a scenestealer in both, and probably
the the the bigger scene stealerin hidden figures who did not
get nominated, right?

SPEAKER_02 (01:46:05):
Um so I so that's an interesting stat about Netflix,
but again, it did miss in 2022,so it's not impossible.
Um, and it it's kind of ironicthat it was also a knives out
film.
Um, and so that's true, and I dofeel that Glenn Close getting
into the supporting actresscategory fixes a huge gaping

(01:46:26):
hole in that category, which isthat no one is a great winner,
right?
Um, and people will, if she getsto that category, she's winning
full stop just based on hercareer 100%.
Um, but I just feel veryconfident that she will not.

SPEAKER_03 (01:46:40):
Um at the same time, Netflix has never really run an
actor who's been nominated howmany times now?
Eight times.
They've never run an actor who'sbeen nominated eight times from
a knives out franchise.
So Janelle Monet, that would beher first nomination.
J.
Moody Curtis in 2019, firstnomination, and Darma's first
nomination.
Um, barring, for example,Christopher Plummer and what,

(01:47:02):
Tony Collette, um, Edward EdwardNorton, Tony Collette, Edward
Norton, um, Christopher Plummer,Kate Hudson, those are the only
previous nominees that they hadto run.
And then you have Glenn Close,who they're running as a
previous nominee, who's beennominated eight times.
Right.
And so I'm saying that if anyoneis gonna break the rule, it
would be her.

SPEAKER_02 (01:47:23):
Yeah, I yeah, I I I agree with you, but there's
another element to this where Ifeel like they've waited this
long that I think that there's apiece of them that might feel
like, am I really gonna give itto her for a knives out film?
You know, which, you know, asgood as she is, and she's very
good, you know, Adam Lasturethat I think a majority of
voters are gonna feel it's oneof her top five best

(01:47:44):
performances.
I certainly don't feel that way.
Right now, right.
So it's sort of like I'mthinking they might feel like I
can give it to her for somethingeven better because she's that
good.

SPEAKER_03 (01:47:54):
I mean, let's hope so.

SPEAKER_02 (01:47:55):
Yeah, or they're just gonna stick her with an
honorary Oscar.

SPEAKER_03 (01:47:58):
They may feel like it may be too much of a gamble.
Or stick her with an honoraryOscar.
I like that.
Right.
Um, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (01:48:04):
So so right now, again, I could be wrong.
And again, if I I'd be happy forher, who wouldn't?
Um, but I just don't see enoughthere to transcend the the the
pattern of you know, we don'tnominate a knives out ensembles.

SPEAKER_03 (01:48:20):
The other one that I would sort of mention here, just
sort of like as a footnote, isJosh O'Connor is great in this
movie.

SPEAKER_01 (01:48:25):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (01:48:26):
And Josh O'Connor, uh it should be a surprise to no
one, he's had an amazing year.
Right.
Are they running him lead orsupporting him?
Supporting.
I think there's room in thecategory.
I think if we're saying I don'tthink there's that much room as
you think.
I think we're saying, I think ifwe're saying again, and they're
all they're all competing forthe same vote, in my opinion.

(01:48:47):
You can have Paul Meskell, who'salready been there, um, who
can't win from this.
You can have Jacob Balorty, buthe's playing a creature.
And then you can have JoshO'Connor, who's basically in
every movie this year and did agood job in all of them, um, and
has yet to be nominated.
I'm saying I don't think it'simpossible.
I'm saying I would not besurprised if he shows up at a

(01:49:10):
for a Golden Globe nomination,maybe even a SAG nomination.
That's that's all I'm sayingabout that.

SPEAKER_02 (01:49:16):
Right.
I as great as he as great as heis in this movie, again, I think
it's weird to put him insupporting because he doesn't
feel supporting at all.
He feels like a lead.
I think that's gonna hurt.
Um, and I I I disagree with you.
I firmly I I I very I I reallydo think that the best
supporting actor category iskind of done.
You know, I think it'sSkarsgaard, Sean Penn, Paul

(01:49:36):
Meskell, Benicio del Toro, andAdam Sandler.
I don't think that that's gonnamove.
Um, I feel pretty confidentabout that.
Um but yeah, you know, like Isaid, I'd be happy for her and
she'd be like a sigh of reliefbecause like, okay, well, we
know who's winning this categorynow.
Um Best Supporting Actress.
But uh Yeah, I just don't seeit.

(01:49:57):
I think it's a I think it's ascreenplay nomination only.

SPEAKER_03 (01:50:00):
I think script for sure, do not sleep on those
other two.
That's that's all that's all I'msaying.
Um, well, let's jump then to amovie, a couple of movies that
people have sort of had on theoutlier of best picture, one of
which I think we liked a lot,but I think after seeing it, I
think we're in agreement.
Um, no other choice from SouthKorea, right?

SPEAKER_02 (01:50:22):
Um, we were able to see No Other Choice a couple
weeks ago.
Um, Park Chang Wuk's uhsatirical black comedy thriller.
Uh it's a dark fable on you knowcontemporary woe culture, woe
war culture.
Um, I absolutely loved it.
I think it's one of the bestfilms of the year.
I think it's one of Park ChangWuk's best.
Um, it was uh biting and tragicand uh so resonant and timely

(01:50:48):
and you know invigorating.
I loved it.
Um I think the crowd we saw itwith liked it as well.
Um, it's accessible and it'sjust you know beautifully
composed.
No surprise there from Par ChangWuk.
I will say that I feel prettyconfident.
I think is this is what you wereyou know implying that it will
not be nominated for foreignlanguage film, um, and that it's

(01:51:10):
gonna be blanked.
It's not gonna be we're talkingabout best picture.
Yeah, I don't think it will benominated for anything.

SPEAKER_03 (01:51:15):
Well, I'll tell you what, I I really enjoyed the
film as well.
I thought it was very good.
It's certainly one of myfavorites of the year.
Um, tremendous work by Park ChanWuk, great performance by Vingo.
Very good.
Um, yeah, he's fantastic.
Fantastic in it.
And listen, I think somewherebetween the topic maybe not
being timely enough, Neon havingway too many movies, and Park

(01:51:39):
Chan Wook getting in some hotwater earlier this year with the
WGA, somewhere between all thatis a snub waiting to happen for
no other choice.

SPEAKER_02 (01:51:47):
Right.
You feel like the topic's nottimely with you know the sort of
I think we're reaching thisfever pitch of immigration
regard to I think you're right.

SPEAKER_03 (01:51:56):
I think I take that back.

SPEAKER_02 (01:51:57):
Machining of you know the you know right force.

SPEAKER_03 (01:52:00):
I think that it's maybe a very timely topic that I
overlooked.
Um, and maybe that'll be thefactor that helps it get in for
foreign film.
Um but I think that they've justhad such a strong history of not
liking Park John Wook films.
Um that's true.
At the same time, you know, thesource material, Donald West

(01:52:25):
like a little bit more respectedin sort of uh American cinema
vernacular.
Yeah.
And so I wouldn't be surprisedif that helps also.
Um I think it's really gonnaneed the international community
to get behind it um for it toscore any kind of nomination,
but certainly international filmand anything else.
Like, for example, I wouldn't, Idon't know where they're
campaigning it, what category,but I wouldn't sleep on Li

(01:52:47):
Bye-in getting in for best actorat the Golden Globes.
Really?
For example, uh comedy.
I I think then I think he's infor that category, to be
perfectly honest.
Um, I don't I don't think he canrepeat that anywhere else,
unfortunately.
Um, and it would have to be likethe critics darling across the
board, across the board.
And I just don't think that ithas um the same urgency there as

(01:53:10):
you know, something like OneBattle has Son Dance Canada
Happen.
Um, but I think it's a solidfilm.
I think you're right.
It's so it's timely enough whereit can get into best foreign
language film, but I thinkthere's only three neon films
for best foreign film.
Right.
I don't think there's any morethan that.

SPEAKER_02 (01:53:24):
I agree with that, and I I will say that as much as
I loved it, I still feel like itwon't get an eye for a foreign
language film.
I think unfortunately, Par ChangWuk is a little bit, as you were
saying, in hot water that Ithink is going to affect the
nomination tally for him andthis film.
Um certainly in screenplay,certainly in best picture, and
even in best foreign film.

SPEAKER_03 (01:53:44):
Can you imagine if it dig an eye for best adapted
screenplay after all that withthe Oscars?
Like I think ironic, yeah.
Yeah, they're gonna be some somevery upset guild members.
Right, but I loved it.
Yeah, very good film.
And I think after you sort ofreminded me, you know, I think
it may just be timely enough inways that other Parchon Wook
films aren't to maybe sneak inthere.

(01:54:06):
But it would be it would have tobe over the secret agent or or
or or any other neon film, butyou only have spots for three.
Yeah, that's the problem.

SPEAKER_02 (01:54:16):
So you already have well, because you already have,
yeah, it's really hard to be thesecret agent, sentimental value,
and it was just an accident.

SPEAKER_03 (01:54:23):
It's very hard.
Yeah.
So I I don't and and by the way,I one film that you know we
haven't had the opportunity toscreen yet, which is getting a
lot of great notices, is Surrat.
So that's that's really thekiller right there.
Yeah.
Um, so then why don't we jumpabout talking about um film that
I didn't get a chance to see,but you saw it, and and actually
I I was really happy to hear youwere a fan of it.

(01:54:43):
Let's talk about um BradleyCooper's new film from
Searchlight.

SPEAKER_02 (01:54:46):
Yes, I really enjoyed watching uh this is this
thing on.
To my surprise, I yeah, you weresort of like I was kind of a
negative when I saw the trailer.
I've been a little bit on adownswing for um uh Bradley
Cooper, you know, after Maestro,which I wasn't crazy about.
I'll say that of his threefilms, I think it's the film I

(01:55:07):
like most.
I I knew it.
I freaking knew it.
Um, it's just really charmingand it's very inviting.
It has this very accessibleenergy.
It's it's fun, it's funny, it'ssweet, it's poignant, and it's
well done.
You know, like I think BradleyCooper brought a dynamism to it
that he was able to sort ofacquire in his first two films

(01:55:30):
that I think really helped thismovie flow, you know.
And the crowd, it was I saw itwith a packed crowd, um, and
everyone loved it.
And um Will Arnett gives hisbest performance, you know.
He you know hasn't stretchedhimself too much in the you know
dramatic actor space.
Um, but he's quite lovely here.

(01:55:52):
Laura Dern is is good.
Um, but Will Arnett I think isthe star.
And um it's just it was a filmthat's just you know, it's just
like sitting down with a with awith a friend and and and and
having a nice vibe, you know.
You know, it's it was veryinviting, it was warm, it was it
was it was funny.
Um, so I quite liked it.

(01:56:12):
The crowd I saw with, you know,was laughing and having a good
time.
I'll say that I didn't love theending, which again, I won't
spoil it, but there's somethingabout the ending that I think,
you know that's the mostimportant part of the movie.
Well, but the thing that I don'tlike about it is very
particular.
It's not it's not like Bugonia,which you know, I you know, some

(01:56:34):
people are just not gonna likethat ending period.
Right.
Um, it's more like there's anaspect there's something about
the ending that I think anotherfilm called Dibson that I don't
think I don't think anybody canuse it after that film used it.
And so like that's the one thingthat I thought, like, oh come
on, you know, you know, I didn'tlike that.

(01:56:55):
Interesting.
Uh as soon as you see it, if youif any of you have seen it, or
as soon as you'll see it, youyou know, you'll know exactly
what I'm talking about.
Um uh but I quite enjoyed it,but I don't think that it's
gonna land anywhere.
I think the only place it couldtechnically land if enough
writers see it and enjoy it, butthey've already nominated him
twice, and I think that there'sgoing to be a prevailing um

(01:57:18):
sentiment sentiment that eventhough it's a good Bradley
Cooper film, that the other twowere more like you know,
difficult films.
Pompacy.
Yeah, they were more difficultfilms, and you know, uh because
they were more difficult, Iguess they were bigger
achievements, even if you knowthey liked it.
Uh this third film.
Um, so I don't see them umembracing it for our screenplay

(01:57:44):
nomination.
I think Best Actor is the mostcompetitive category of the year
for in the acting category,certainly.
So I don't think we'll not we'llwe'll we'll get nominated there,
but I I don't see how he doesn'tget a Golden Globe nomination
out of this.
They're running a drama now,right?
Still, I don't see how hedoesn't get a Golden Globe
nomination out of this.
Um and yeah, I was a big fan.
I think you'll like it a lotwhen you see it.

SPEAKER_03 (01:58:04):
I love the trailer and I was I was disappointed to
have missed it, but I I I'm soglad to hear that you liked it.
I hope we don't yin yang on it.
Um I'm not a fan of BradleyCooper's directing efforts at
all.
Um, but I did like this trailera lot.
Um, so many things that you'resaying are striking to me.
Um, primarily becauseSearchlight does have a
reputation of getting into BestPicture, and I know that they

(01:58:25):
sort of railroaded this movie bybuying Anne Lee.
You've seen Ann Lee now, and youdon't think it's gonna get
anywhere near Best Picture.
I've seen Anne Lee and I thinkit's really close to Best
Picture, and so it's interestingthat you're saying Anne Lee
can't get anywhere near it.
But is this thing on you enjoyeda lot and is much more
accessible, but you have yourhesitation about whether or not

(01:58:46):
I can break through at the sametime.
Like I look at originalscreenplay and I see open spots
because if you're if the bestyou're giving me is weapons, and
again, I I enjoyed weaponsimmensely, I just know it's not
necessarily their thing.
Um, if the best you're giving meis weapons, sinners can possibly
be two genres.
Can is this thing on crash thatcategory?

(01:59:09):
Um, I think it can.
I think between you know WillArnett and Bradley Cooper and
just the topic and thesearchlight element to it, I
think it could end up surprisingthere.

SPEAKER_02 (01:59:18):
I certainly think it's a film that's tailor-made
to be a crowd pleaser.
And so I I'll be curious to seeif the audience shows up for it.
Oh wow, yeah.
Because Christmas, yeah, becauseI do think that if they do and
it makes money, I think it asyou were have used been as
you've been hinting throughoutthe conversation, it's a
different story.
Yeah.
Um, and again, the crowd I sawwas laughing and having a good

(01:59:39):
time.
Yeah.
Um, but I just not sure thatagain, we're in that climate
where films are having an easytime finding an audience, even
if they're crop pleasers.

SPEAKER_03 (01:59:50):
I mean, I can't wait to see it.
Um, I definitely think youshould keep an eye on air for
original screenplay.
Um, the other thing I'll say,and I think it's a great bridge
into the next movie we're goingto talk about, is With our net,
I think he's gonna get a lot ofrespect for putting himself out
there like that and doing it assuccessfully as you're saying.
And so I remember when um SarahSilverman, who I love, um, gave

(02:00:12):
her performance for I SmileBack, which is a performance
that I respect tremendously, andshe was able to get a SAG
nomination for that.
I do wonder, you know, ascrowded as a year as it is for
Best Actor, you know, WillArnett has put in so much time
in the industry.
Very seldom is he ever gonna runelite actor campaign.
Does the sag at least say, Noway am I gonna pass up a chance

(02:00:34):
to nominate Will Arnett in afilm directed by fellow actor
Bradley Cooper, um, where umwhere he's you know playing,
where he's you know digging intohis own, possibly his own life
for material.
Right.
Um, and also doing a dramaticrole, the the principal role,
number one on on the call sheet.

(02:00:54):
And so, no way am I gonna passup the opportunity to nominate
him there.
So I do wonder about that.
I'm not sure I'm as you said,I'm not sure at the end he'll be
able to you know broker thatinto a nomination because they
may have had to have snubbedWagner Mora to to make room for
Will Arnett, but I do wonder ifWill Arnett is gonna be able to
get that same sort of uh lovethat Sarah Silverman was able to

(02:01:14):
get.
That's a good point.

SPEAKER_02 (02:01:16):
That's a good point.
I think that's that's kind ofinteresting.
That's interesting.
I think that's very possible.

SPEAKER_03 (02:01:19):
And so the next film to talk about, I think uh a lot
of people have seen, but wefinally caught up with, which is
uh Springsteen, right?
Another best actor contender.

SPEAKER_02 (02:01:26):
Yes, which underperformed at the box
office.

SPEAKER_03 (02:01:28):
Again, another another very disappointing
premiere from the fall.

SPEAKER_02 (02:01:33):
Right.
And and you and I were kind ofsensing that this film was going
to underperform with criticssince we saw the trailer all the
way back in the summer.
Um sometimes we have a goodsixth sense, sometimes we don't,
but you know, in that I thinkit's better, it's more good than
bad.
And we were just sensing that,you know, they just did the Bob

(02:01:55):
Dylan, you know, completeunknown music biopic.
It just seems too soon to doanother one of those.
Uh once it came out in TeddyRide, you know, there was a lot
of buzz about you know theJeremy Allen White performance.
So we thought, well, maybe it'sa single nominee for best actor
for Jeremy Allen White, eventhough Jeremy Allen White is
kind of a weird person, also,um, because he very much mimics

(02:02:19):
a lot Rami Malik, who won forsomething similar, because
they're both more were moreknown for their TW their TV work
before they won, before RamiMalik won for uh Bohemian
Rhapsody.
Uh so again, uh Jeremy AllenWhite is known more for his TV
work.
He's also been very celebratedfor his TV work.
Um, some people might havethought that that could help him

(02:02:41):
because that means a lot of, youknow, there are probably a lot
of actors who watch the bear andare fans, but that could also
hurt because you know you'reused to seeing me on the bear
and you kind of know that he'sbeen so celebrated on the bear
that he kind of has to provethat he's ready to make the jump
into like the best actorcategory.
Right.
So you and I were reallythinking for a long time, okay,
well, maybe this is a solonominee for best actor.

(02:03:02):
And then uh Ethan Hawke reallystarted to pick up steam for
Blue Moon.
And I think it became quiteclear to you and I very early on
that that solo nominee spot wasgoing to be either Ethan Hawke
or Jeremy Allen White.
Ethan Hawke had the critics, hadthe Berlin premiere, Jeremy
Allen White had what theytypically like, even though

(02:03:23):
again Blue Moon is, you know, uhabout the industry in a way, um,
about a figure in the industryin a way, and and and this is
also something that they liked.
So just there was a lot ofparallel that there was a big
parallel between the two, youknow, and that best actor spot.
And the question of, you know,whether is there room for both?
Right, right, exactly.
I thought absolutely no way,it's one or the other.
And then when I first saw BlueMoon, I thought, well, you know,

(02:03:46):
it the film, you know, iscertainly very acclaimed, but
it's also very static, you know,and so maybe they're just gonna
be more drawn to the flashinessof um Springsteen Springsteen,
and actually the oppositehappened, you know, uh
Springsteen ended up having evenmore middle of the road reviews
um and didn't do well at the boxoffice, as you and I were

(02:04:08):
thinking that it might havedone.
You gotta get one, exactly.
And so I think all of thosefactors really started to lessen
its uh ability to uh jump oversomeone like Ethan Hawk, who's
been waiting to get in uh sincehe was, you know, notoriously
and and just horrendouslysnubbed for first reforms for
best actor.

(02:04:28):
And so now more than a decadesince boyhood.
Uh yeah, and boyhood.
Um, he's a respected actor,never gone lead.
He's never been eye for lead.
Um, and so just the stars arealigning for Ethan Hawk to
certainly get his uh I thinkit's his third acting
nomination, first time in lead.
Um, and that he will beat JeremyAllen White for that spot.

(02:04:50):
Right.
As far as the movie goes, I'lljust say that, you know, I
wasn't a huge fan of it.
You know, I think that it's wellintentioned.
I like its concept of trying tofocus on this difficult period
of Bruce Springsteen and hiscreation of Nebraska and his
struggles with uh with withtrauma and and depression.
Um, but I just feel like thefilm to me felt like the concept

(02:05:14):
never fully uh bec uhflourished.
It kind of stayed at conceptlevel, right?
Um, and that's just and we weretalking about after we saw the
movie, that's kind of a critiqueI have a lot about this
director, Scott Cooper, and anda feeling that I I feel often
when I see his films.
Um and so, you know, I don'tthink the film hits hard enough.
Um, and uh again, you know, itfeels a little bit stuck in

(02:05:38):
concept level, right?
You know, as a as opposed to afull rendering, you know,
character-wise, story-wise.
Um, and I will say that I thinkthe performances were very good.
Um, I think Jeremy Allen Whiteis good.
I think Odessa Young was good.
And I have to say my favoriteperformance was actually uh
Jeremy Strong, you know, whichwas not what I expected.

(02:05:59):
Uh seeing the previews, it feltlike very, you know, Oscar
Beatty.
But I have to say that it reallyworked for me.
You know, I think you know, hewas a character that felt
inhabited, you know, and uh notshowy in a way that I think was
quite effective.
Um, so that was maybe myfavorite performance of uh of

(02:06:20):
the movie.
And again, uh all this to saythat I don't think the film is
going to get nominated for anyOscars.
Okay.
Um, and it's a it's a zeronominee, even though I do expect
Jeremy Allen White to get a sagand globe nomination, both or
one or the other, possibly umJeremy Strong to land uh
somewhere as well, Globe or Sag.
I think it hurts that Jeremy wasjust there.

SPEAKER_03 (02:06:44):
Had he been snubbed, anywhere that he had been
snubbed for The Apprentice, Iwould say that he would get in
for this movie.
Right.
But he got in everything.
He got the sag, the globe, andthe Oscar.

SPEAKER_02 (02:06:53):
That's why you and I were always very cold on Jeremy
Strong getting nominated forthis, because you know, like I
said, repeat nominations, youknow, consecutive nominations
are very difficult, right?
Despite some people thinkingthat they're easier than they
are.
Um, and I just uh it's too soon,too soon, especially if he's not
winning.

SPEAKER_03 (02:07:09):
I I was a big fan of Stephen Graham in the film.
Um I'm a big Stephen Graham.
Oh, yeah, Stephen Graham is verygood at his book.
Um Adessa Young, I thought did agreat job too.
Um, I was kind of a little bitmixed on the Jeremy Ann Lynn
White performance, but it reallygrew on me on the second half.
Um, and I liked it, and I reallyrespected the performance he
gave.
And I thought um he did a verygood job, and I think he has a

(02:07:30):
very bright future ahead of him.
Um, I just don't think that itscored enough between critics
and general audience uh membersto make the argument for the
best actor nomination, so Idon't think he'll get very far.
But that said, it reminded me alot of something that I see sort
of evolving in the best actorrace, um, which is that we don't

(02:07:51):
really have any shortage ofworthy performances.
We have a lot of worthyperformances.
Um, this goes back to likeDwayne Johnson, for example.
Jesse Plemons is fantastic inhis film.
It's really gonna come down tolike who gets there first.
And so this is the argument thatI made, and I hope we can talk
about it further in anotherepisode.
But the argument I made wasafter seeing the film and we

(02:08:14):
were lucky enough to see ittogether, um, I liked it.
I liked the film.
I gotta say that.
Um, it's on the the side ofScott Cooper films that I
enjoyed.
I understand that it's nottrying to reinvent the wheel at
all, um, that it's borrowed thewheel from the wheel store and
it's not doing anything new, butI think it does it um with um
enough humanity that I enjoyedthe film.
Um, but what was interesting tome is, you know, as we discuss

(02:08:38):
the prospects of the film is theidea that because they're all
sort of tied, Jeremy AllenWhite, Dwayne Johnson, Jesse
Plemmins, you know, is a moreestablished actor, but at the
same time it's a more alienatingfilm.
Because they're all sort oftied, it's really gonna come
down to, and and what I thoughtwhat I was trying to suggest to

(02:09:00):
you, it's gonna come down towho's able to get that final sag
nomination, and if anyone isable to sort of broker their
golden globe nomination into agolden globe win.
And so, for example, you and Ihave always been hot on the idea
that Wagner Mora is gonna winthe Golden Globe drama, yeah,
which is I which is still ourtheory number A.

(02:09:22):
Yeah, but if something happensthat they do not want to give it
to Wagner Mora, that best actorlist on the drama side, any one
of them can win.
All the favorites twin bestactor, you know, a lot of the
strong contenders are actuallyon the comedy side.
Yeah, and so if Jeremy AllenWhite wins the Golden Globe

(02:09:42):
because they don't want to giveit to Wagner Mora, that may be
all he needs.
If Dwayne Johnson wins theGolden Globe, we talked to
Michael B.
Jordan.
If Michael B.
Jordan can can go from Sinnersbeing maybe one of the few best
actor nominees actually listedin Best Picture to winning the
Golden Globe for Best Actor,then vampire film be damned.

(02:10:03):
I think Michael B.
Jordan gets in for Sinners.

SPEAKER_02 (02:10:06):
Right now he's I think a favorite to get in, but
you and I are predicting that hewon't because of the whole
vampire thing.
And not only that, that thatthat actually Warner Brothers,
their acting vehicle, is clearlywhat that would turn out.
Yeah.
And usually when when they'vehad more than one film in Best
Picture, there's usually onethat's their actor film and one
that's their more you know techfilm.

SPEAKER_03 (02:10:26):
Yeah, and Sinners fits the bill a little bit
better in terms of their beingtheir tech film.
Um, but you know, if he winsthat golden globe, I think that
he would have to get in.
Um, the same thing for any ofthose other, for example,
Russell Crowe wins the GoldenGlobe.
I think Russell Crowe would haveto get in for Nuremberg.

SPEAKER_00 (02:10:44):
Right.

SPEAKER_03 (02:10:44):
And so to me, Jeremy Allen White, Russell Crowe,
Dwayne Johnson, um, JessePlemens, uh, Wagner Mora,
really, it's just a race to whowins the Golden Globe drama.

SPEAKER_01 (02:10:58):
Right.

SPEAKER_03 (02:10:58):
Because we already know so many actors are gonna
get in from the comedy side, andthe favorite to win is gonna get
in from the comedy side.
Right.
And so it's really just a matterof the race to Golden Globe Best
Actor drama, and is theadvantage right now with Michael
B.
Jordan because of hiscompetitors, Train Dreams,
Springsteen, Smashing Machine,he may be the only one to

(02:11:22):
feature in a best picture movie.
Yeah, exactly, 100%.
So I think that's the bigtakeaway I took from
Springsteen.
Solid performance could happen.
The campaign needs to focus onwinning the Golden Globe.
That's every actor's concern iswinning the Golden Globe drama.
Forget about anything else.

SPEAKER_02 (02:11:36):
No, I think that's an excellent point.
I again, I don't think I don'tsee it happening, but I I do
agree with you that if he weresomehow able to win the Golden
Globe, I think that that changesthings.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (02:11:44):
All right.
Well, let's talk about anotherfilm that disappointed um when
it came out.
And I think you and I kind ofknew that it was going to
disappoint.
Um, we got a chance to screenit.
Um, we're switching over to BestActress now.
And let's talk about Christie umwith Sydney Sweeney.
And this was released by BlackBear, Black Bear's first film
that they're releasing, um,distributing themselves.

(02:12:06):
They're more known on theirproduction design, uh, excuse
me, the production side, forexample, they are uh part of the
uh production of Train Dreams,um, which they then sold to
Netflix.
But um, I think they wereunhappy with um the deals they
were getting to distribute theirfilm, so they went on out of
their way to distribute uhSydney Sweeney's uh film.

(02:12:26):
It's their first film, itfaceplanted more or less.
Um, the audiences didn't come,unfortunately.
Um, right.
Here's another contender in thebest actress race that was very
much trying to play the realperson card against Amanda
Seyfried, who she will actuallyco-star with this Christmas in
The Housemate.

(02:12:47):
So that's extra fun, extra metathere.
Um, but so so Christy, what didyou think?

SPEAKER_02 (02:12:52):
Um, first I'll just say that I'm a huge David
Machode fan.
Um, so I was actually excited tosee Christy.
Um, I think it's his weakestfilm.
I was not a big fan.
Um, I think there's a lot ofthings about the way this film
was done that are a little bituh you know sloppy for his

(02:13:13):
standards.
You know, I think he's such aparticular filmmaker that to me
it felt a little bit by thenumbers.
Something that's not uh thatthat is weird to say with this
filmmaker because his films arevery not very much not that.
Um, you know, it at times kindof flirted with being like a
lifetime movie.
Um and I don't I take nopleasure in saying that.

(02:13:36):
Um uh I certainly think thefirst half of the film is the
weakest part.
And I think that the second halfof the film, when we get into
the, you know, uh we get furtherinto the uh abuse that she
underwent at the hands that thatChristy underwent at the hands
of her husband, I think the filmsort of starts to attain a
little bit more uh energy, alittle bit more power.

(02:13:59):
It's like a jolt.
Yeah.
Um, and then it gets soincredibly violent at the very
end of the film that you knowyou can't help but be amazed at
what this woman was able toovercome.
Certainly you cannot take thataway.
You know, it's an an incrediblereal life story, and and what
happens to her is is so uhnightmarish that um it's it's

(02:14:20):
appalling.
Um and that she was able toovercome that again is is is
very uh inspiring.
Um that being said though, ifthis wasn't, and you made the
point, I think it's an excellentpoint, that if this wasn't a
real life story and it was afictional story, and that same
uh, you know, those events thattranspired towards the end of

(02:14:41):
the film end up making the pageand end up making the screen,
that would have been veryproblematic.
Because it it was such a shift,you know, um uh uh story-wise,
thematically, you know, theenergy of the piece.
It's just such an uh it's justsuch a shift that it would have
been it would have beenborderline unacceptable.

SPEAKER_03 (02:15:02):
Yeah.
I I that's the way I felt aswell, is that there comes a
moment in the film, if you'veseen it and you know you
shouldn't try to watch it in thebig screen if you get a chance.
Um there comes a moment in thefilm where just the weight of
what actually happened toChristy Martin is uh, as you
said, uh a nightmarish andagain, just her story, her

(02:15:26):
ability to overcome that, to uhto persevere in the face of that
is just absolutelyextraordinary.
To the point where if the filmwere fictional, those elements
or that particular element thatI'm referencing, and once you
see the film, you'll know whatwe're talking about is

(02:15:47):
absolutely infuriating.
Yeah.
Because you just it would beinfuriating.
It's it would be infuriatingbecause the film in large part
does not earn it.
Right.
Does not earn, you know, theamazing comeback that that
character has.

SPEAKER_00 (02:16:05):
Right.

SPEAKER_03 (02:16:06):
Um not only that, doesn't also earn going into
that territory.
Into that territory.

SPEAKER_02 (02:16:10):
Yeah, that territory.

SPEAKER_03 (02:16:12):
You know, it's almost and the fact that it's
real to me was also kind offrustrating because, like, how
do you not, in my opinion,render the film more
passionately on the road tothat?
If you know that's where itgoes.
You know, I don't think playing,you know, painting by numbers
and having a conventional takeon it really helped, right?

(02:16:33):
Really helped.
Um, and so it was it was kind offrustrating, especially from
David, who's so immenselytalented.
Yeah, um, at the same time, youknow, this has always been sort
of uh pushed as a vehicle forCindy Sweeney, who plays Christy
Martin, um ever since the theToronto premiere.
Um I think it's a very good uh Ithink it's a good performance,

(02:16:55):
um, despite the shortcomings onthe script.
Um I don't think it's her bestperformance.
I think I liked her a little bitmore in reality, for example,
which did not get a theatricalrelease, unfortunately.
Um, but I think it's a solidperformance.
I understand that it has sort ofthe package to to want to push
for best actress.
It's a good role, it's a goodrole.
It's a good role.
I think when you see the film,the the true story might be so

(02:17:22):
impacting enough that it could,you know, potentially get in for
a sag nomination.
I think a golden globenomination is a given.
But I also think that if enoughpeople don't see the film, and
that's where it's sort of headedright now, it could just be a
Golden Globe nominee.
I will say my favoriteperformance is actually comes
from Ben Foster, who's an actorthat I absolutely adore, and I

(02:17:43):
think you know the depths thathe has to go to are you know a
very, I think, very difficultthing to do.
Right.

SPEAKER_02 (02:17:49):
I mean, I I think it was a good role.
I saw I see the attractionthere, and I see why it's being
pushed for for best actress.
I think that at times I oftenfelt actually I shouldn't say at
times, I often felt that she wasmiscast.
I thought that the the role feltlike it was should have been
given to an older, more seasonedactress.

(02:18:11):
Yes.
Um, but I will say that when itgets into that really dark
terrain, I think she really kindof uh embraces it in a way that
I think is effective.
Um, so I appreciate that.
Um and I do think that a GoldenGlobe nomination is very
possible.
I think it won't get a SAGnomination.

(02:18:32):
I think the only chance it wouldhave gotten a sag nomination is
if it had been a hit, which itwasn't.
Right, which it wasn't.
Um, so I think it's globe andthat's it at most.
Um I think that there areaspects that I agree with you
about Ben Foster.
I think there are moments where,again, he's an incredible, he's
one of our greatest actors.
And so there are moments where Ithink I I was really able to

(02:18:54):
feel that, you know, that wrathand that authenticity from his
portrayal.
But there are other momentswhere I think he comes across,
whether it be because of hischoices or because of how he's
being um uh shot and how he'sbeing uh directed, that he can
come across a little bit toosimilar to like a caricature of

(02:19:14):
what he's portraying.
So I don't think he can fullyescape that.
But I think there are plenty oftalented actors in this movie.
You know, Mary Weaver has a fewscenes, and I think she was I
thought she was very umeffective and in portraying this
very cold character.
I thought Katie O'Brien was abreath of fresh air.

SPEAKER_03 (02:19:30):
Katie O'Brien was great in it to the point where I
had to say, why the hell wasn'tKatie O'Brien given the Christy
Martin part?
I will say that.
Yeah, you know, she just hadsuch a naturalistic presence,
but physically though, maybe shejust doesn't resemble Christy
Martin too much.
Maybe, but I do think thatyou're right.

(02:19:51):
So many of the performances inthe film border on caricature,
and what Katie O'Brien is givingyou is feels completely
different.
That I would have preferred themovie with Katie O'Brien in the
lead part.

SPEAKER_02 (02:20:02):
Yeah, and I think that's fair.
I think that's fair.
Um, I will say that one of thebiggest things, one of the
biggest takeaways for me fromthis whole Christie thing is
that, you know, I've been reallydisappointed in Sydney Sweeney
and how she's handled the sortof controversy that has
surrounded her after the Jeansad and whatnot, and uh, and

(02:20:22):
Trump, you know, putting hisfoot in his mouth and
commenting.
I really don't like how shehandled that.
I really don't like how maybeshe was advised to handle that
by her team.
Um, and I will say that uh anexperience of, you know, uh
what's happened with Christy, Ithink, is really crystallizing

(02:20:43):
of how, you know, uh how sort ofdistorted this whole thing is.
You know, you're in a way, itseems like not commenting on
that controversy and puttingthings right for, you know, uh
many people who are offended bythe ad, at least having a
dialogue about it, aconversation about it, um, was
pandering to a fan base that shemaybe is aware that she has.

(02:21:08):
Somehow the right thinks thatshe's their adopted daughter,
um, without understanding that alot of her work is work that
they would never watch, theywould never see The White Lotus,
they would never see reality,which is anti-Trump.
Um, they would never see Christybecause it's about a lesbian
boxer.
At the end of the day, yeah.

(02:21:29):
And so it's really sad that youin a way possibly pander to this
audience that won't show up foryou, won't show up for your
craft, right, won't show up forart because so much of art is,
you know, uh outside of whatthey're interested in.
Right.
You know, um, and so in a way, Ijust think that it's very uh uh

(02:21:54):
misguided from her or her teamor both about how she's gonna
handle this stardom and thisattention.
Um and I think hopefully she sawwhere it's you know, where it's
leading her, hopefully she sawwhat it's giving her, right?
You know, which is uh a filmthat was liked by many at

(02:22:15):
Toronto and has some goodreviews from many people who did
like it and flopped, you know,and here's a story that I think
it's a story that deserves to betold.
I think Christy's story isincredible.
Um, and so I just think it'ssuch a shame that you know you
are just so misguided um in youknow your your craft that you

(02:22:37):
don't understand where you'restanding and where you should be
standing.

SPEAKER_03 (02:22:42):
Right.
I think it's I think it's more amiscalculation in terms of the
publicity side.
Um, because I do think itreveals that as much as you
know, audience certain audiencemembers are gonna, you know,
show up when you give themsomething that pleases them, if
you want to go and try to makesomething that's a little bit
more challenging, make somethingthat, you know, uh is probably

(02:23:03):
going to uh you know show yourpeers um what you're capable of
and maybe show another side ofof what you can do, uh they're
very much less likely to showup.
And so I think you have to becareful in this day and age of
you know not alienating too manypeople.
Um I think it's I think it'sdisappointing.

(02:23:24):
I think I'm sure that's not thelaunch that she or her team or
Black Bear would have wanted,but I think at the very least it
sort of shows the industry thatyou know she's a capable
actress.
Um, she just needs goodmaterial.
Um at the same time, I will saythat, you know, I think she kind
of showed that with reality, ifyou had seen reality.

(02:23:44):
Right.
Um, so yeah, I think it's it'sgrowing pains.
I think it's growing pains, butI think like other young actors,
Jeremy Allen White, Jacob Lordy,it puts her in the trajectory to
be nominated in the future.

SPEAKER_02 (02:23:56):
Yeah, but like I said, I would go further.
I would say there's a little bitof reaping and sowing here, you
know, because if you're ifyou're so adamant about not, you
know, confronting things thatare you know important to a lot
of people because you're tryingto pander to a different group
of people that at the same timejust like you saying, it they're

(02:24:19):
not gonna show up for for art,they're not gonna show up for
this.
You know, there's there'sthere's a lack of uh there's
there's something veryincoherent and antithetical
about the whole thing, right?

SPEAKER_03 (02:24:28):
No, I I understand that.
I I could see that.
Right.
Um, so that was interesting.
I think why don't we talk aboutanother film um in the best
actress category that was not apeople pleaser?
Um that being said, it made moremoney than I thought.
And so let's just take a momenthere to reiterate how much you
enjoyed Die My Love.
I yeah, you haven't gotten achance to see.

(02:24:49):
D pluses for Die My Love.

SPEAKER_02 (02:24:51):
Yeah, but uh, you know, we mentioned it in our
previous episode when we talkedabout Can.
I love that film.
But you and I both knew that itwas a film that was destined to
not do well uh with generalaudiences, even at Can, which is
a Cinephile's paradise.
There were a lot of mixedreactions, a lot of polarized
reactions, even if it was doingwell critically.

(02:25:12):
We always thought that it woulddo well critically.
Um, again, it's one of myfavorite films of the year, but
the film is very uh uh operatingon this wavelength that you know
uh it can be very distancingwork, it can be very isolating
work.
Um uh Lynn Ramsey is a genius,and you see all her gifts in

(02:25:36):
this film uh full stop.
But it's uh a film that's reallytrying to help that's really
that really manages to get youto access this very particular
and uh scary and you knowfrightening and surreal trauma.

(02:25:56):
Um, and so the film is soimmensely successful in putting
you in the mindset of thischaracter.
Um, it's it's invigorating workby Lynn Ramsey, by Lynn Ramsey
by Jennifer Lawrence, who givesher best performance to date,
but it's challenging work, andit's definitely something that I
thought a lot of audiences weregoing to be repelled by.

SPEAKER_03 (02:26:19):
And they were, and they were, and they lived up to
their part of the bargainbecause they were, but you know,
at least it wasn't enough.

SPEAKER_02 (02:26:25):
Right, but then I joke, you know, like if you get
a Lindsay Ramsay movie that's aD plus that just shows you how
good it is.
Yeah, that's probably one hellof a Lynn Ramsey.
Right.
And so um, so I can't wait, Ican't wait for you to see it.
I loved it.
If you get a chance, try to seeit in the theater.
At the same time, it didn't makemoney, right?
Well, I mean it made I mean itmade some money, like it didn't
make Christie money, you know,but it it it it it made some

(02:26:47):
money, but still very, very,very low from what it needed to
make, especially when youconsider the movie paid 24
million dollars to acquire it.

SPEAKER_03 (02:26:55):
Right, which is out of this world.
But at the same time, I meanwe're living in a world where
Dye My Love has outgrossedChristy, and that that says
something.
Yeah, right.
Um, because that's interesting.
It is interesting, and it's theother thing.
Christy, like, it's too long,like way too long, way too long
of a movie.
Way because like even Nuremberg,which plays it safe, was smart

(02:27:15):
enough to be, you know, wassmart enough to do it well
enough that people went to gosee it.
Right.
Well, people some people willabsolutely feel that Die My Love
is too long as well.
I'm sure that and and and andthat reflects in the D Plus.
That said, they already got thepeople to buy the ticket, so
they're not getting refunds, andso it outgrows Christy, which
was a pleasant surprise.
I think I wasn't expecting that.
Um, I think one thing I want toask you because you had a moment

(02:27:39):
to recently revisit it, and tome, this is this is where the
argument comes, which is D Plusbe damned.
Die My Love has made enoughmoney to at least be nominated
for a Golden Globe actressdrama, in my opinion.
I don't think you can doanything else, but I think
there's that.
But now that Die My Love hascome out and gotten a D plus and

(02:28:00):
made what is it, like twomillion plus?
Two million.
Like three million.
Yeah, maybe it'll make five overits run in theaters, maybe.
But now that it's made that, thereality is that it has made
substantially more than if I hadlegs I'd kick you.
Yeah, which is a similarlythemed film, which will compete

(02:28:20):
in a different uh category atthe Golden Globes, but they will
it will be perpetually hauntedby the idea that these two films
are of a piece, you know, thatare they're sort of cousin
projects or sister projects, andso now that one is just so much
more financially successful thanthe other, is that going to

(02:28:43):
factor into the best actressrace?
Um bear in mind also, let mejust preface this by saying
there are five spots for bestactress.
You already have Jesse Buckleyand Rantara Rhines, you're
saying Amanda Seyfried isundeniable, and Emma Stone is
there with Venice with Bogonia.
And my point is we have so muchchallenging material in Best

(02:29:07):
Actress, right?
That is Rose Byrne going to bethe victim of she's in the
challenging material that ismost anonymous because we have
no idea as an Oscar voter whoMary Bronsteen is, right?
And because Rose Byrne isn't aheadliner like Emma Stone or
Jennifer Lawrence or a previousnominee like either of those,
um, she's not real like uh AnnLee, and it just didn't make

(02:29:31):
enough money.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (02:29:33):
Um it's it's an interesting question.
I do think that there's adifference in the sense that I I
believe that more audiences willhate Dime I Love and uh more
audiences will maybe be a littlebit, you know, it's not my thing

(02:29:55):
about uh if I had legs, I'd kickyou.
I still think there's thingsabout If I had legs I'd kick
you, that certainly would bewill feel nebulous to some
people who watch it, um, but notas inaccessible to some people
as um Die My Love might be.
Again, Llen Ramsey's reallyworking brilliantly in getting

(02:30:17):
you into the psyche of thistortured and troubled young
woman.
And I think Dyma and I think uhif I had like that kick you
spends a little bit more time insort of the chaos of motherhood
that could be maybe possibly alittle bit more penetrable than

(02:30:39):
the you know broken psyche of ayou know disappearing woman, you
know, uh internally.
Right.
Um both terrific films.
I got a chance to, like, as Isaid earlier in the episode to
revisit if I had like kick you,which I was lukewarm after I saw
that Sundance, but I quite likedit now.
Um both terrific performancesamong the very best um of

(02:31:02):
actresses this year.
I think it helps Rose Byrne thatshe is um never been nominated
and is possibly or very likely avery likable person, very
likable actor.
She's worked with a lot ofpeople, she's never gotten her
flowers, she won Berlin.
Um, this film has shown upeverywhere.

(02:31:23):
Went to Berlin, went toSundance, went to Toronto, went
to Tiff, went to New York, justwon everywhere.
Um uh and I think she's an actorthat people have grown to love,
you know, for her comedy skills,for her, she's just an insanely
talented actor.
And I think her peers know that.
And when they see if aheadlights that kick you,

(02:31:44):
they're going to see a stretch.
They're going to see herstretching herself in a way that
they don't often see her.
And there's that's going to beattractive.
Um, Jennifer Lawrence iscertainly stretching herself.
She's going for broke in uh DieMy Love, it's her best
performance.
But she's already a four-timenominee.
She's already an Oscar winner,and they've already seen her

(02:32:08):
stretch herself.
You know, they've alreadyexperienced mother, you know,
and this is very much in themother vein.
Right.
You know, um, and so in a way,it's a little bit more uh
possibly it could be moreattractive with the Rose Byrne,
with Rose Byrne than with her.
Right.
Um, and again, it's all wrappedin this bubble for Dam I Love of
a film that I think a lot ofpeople will actively hate.

(02:32:31):
You know, um, and again, I thinkthat certain things about if I
had legs, I'd kick you, youknow, can pass.
Right.
You know, for you know, I didn'tget that, but this was effective
and that was effective, youknow.

SPEAKER_03 (02:32:42):
I mean, I have to revisit if I had legs, I will
when I get an opportunity, and Ihave to watch Die My Love.
I love Lynn Ramsey's work,though.
Oh, yes.
But it seems to me like thestars are aligning for a
Roseburn snub for the ages.
Um, that she's I think in anextremely strong position to get

(02:33:04):
in a very similar position thatEthan Hawke was in for first
reformed, but in in the same waythat that film was just possibly
too alienating for actors.
Right.
Um I I'm starting to think thatif I had legs I'd kick you is
gonna go the way of firstreformed, Ethan Hawk, Daniel
Craig for Queer, which is uhshe's too alone, she's too

(02:33:28):
young, um, she's uh in toochallenging of a film that that
did not make enough money, thatis not anywhere near a priority
for for A24, and that willprobably be sort of her Achilles
heel and probably have hermissing out at the very end.

(02:33:49):
And so, like, you're right,maybe Die My Love is too
alienating as well, but thenthen I'm starting to think that
if if we have to choose someonebetween all this challenging
work beside Amanda Safree, thenmaybe the safest option will end
up at the at the end of the dayend up being Emma Stone.

SPEAKER_02 (02:34:06):
Well, I I I think that's valid.
I will say, well, first of all,I think that first reformed is
more like die my love than it islike if I had like Z KQ.
Um that's that would be myimpression because there's
something really opaque about uhfirst reformed that is similar

(02:34:26):
to the opaqueness that is in DieMy Love.
I think if I had like Z KQ is Iwon't put it past the territory
of opaque, but but but not asmuch as Die My Love.
Um but but uh you bring up agood point.
I really don't like when you sayshe's so young, she's too young.
Because, and I've mentionedthis, in this year's best

(02:34:48):
actress race, she is among theoldest people, the oldest
contenders to possibly getnominated.
That's crazy to say becauseshe's a young woman, she's a
beautiful woman, she's uh 46years old.
That's not old in this categoryfor best actors, it is because
uh June Squibb, Julia Robertsare contenders that would fit

(02:35:10):
the bill of being actresses over50 to get nominated.
They're not contenders orthey're not serious contenders
because their movies are poorlyreceived, and in some cases
they're very poorly at the boxoffice.
She's one of the very fewcontenders here who can at least
be pat who can at least be inher 40s.
You know, um uh Cynthia Revo andAmanda Seafried are have similar

(02:35:34):
age, I think in 39.
Um Renata Rinesta Rhines andJesse Buckley are of a similar
age, I believe, in theirmid-30s.
We need some older blood here.
We can't have a list of only30-year-olds.
That doesn't make any sense.
That doesn't happen for areason.
We should have some veteranpresence here.
By veteran, I mean older actors,and the best you've got is um

(02:35:59):
Rose Byrne for if a head likethat kick you.
I know there's a case to bemade, and we'll maybe we'll talk
about this movie next, um, uhfor Lucy Lou um in uh Rosemead,
but that's a film that's beingreleased by Vertical, doesn't
have a trajectory of gettinginto the Oscars, A24 does.
So, you know, I think it helps.

(02:36:19):
Her age helps her in thisparticular scenario because
she's one of the oldestcharacter, one of the oldest
actors to be able to possiblyget nominated this year, and
this best actress list needsthat, it's lacking.

SPEAKER_03 (02:36:31):
I mean, I think that's certainly a point.
Um, I guess I was sort of sortof alluding to the idea that at
one point, you know, actors whoaccumulated a tremendous
reputation, a tremendousfilmography, they tend to be
nominated.
And I'm I'm thinking of IsabelHooper.
I'm thinking about CharlotteRampling, but they're certainly

(02:36:54):
nominated at the advanced stagesof their career, you know what I
mean?
Not necessarily um their peakwork, um, but there just comes a
point where you know DanielCraig at some point, if he's not
in a best picture movie, will atsome point be nominated just
because he will there will comea moment where you're gonna say
I it's this it's do or die,basically, for me to nominate

(02:37:15):
Daniel Craig right now.
And so I'm wondering if that'swhat's gonna end up happening
for Rose.
Um I do think you bring up avery good point, and I think
that we haven't heard the lastof that storyline.
Um, and I agree with you, like II don't like a list of best
actress that could that couldskew too young, and that's where

(02:37:36):
I think most people are at rightnow.
Um Roseburn helps.
I I actually think, and we'lltalk about it more as you know
they start ramping up thecampaign for their release in
late December, I think.
But I certainly think that LucyLou and Rosemead is someone that
most people are sleeping on, andthat I would advise them
strongly not to.
Um, but yeah, I think that myonly concern with Roseburne is

(02:38:00):
that the film, not unlike TrainDreams, you know, it could
really need it really needs somuch care from some element
that's gonna influence the vote.
And I I if they don't show up,then I don't know what chance
she has.
Right.
Even then, I'm thinking aboutlike Tony Collette for
Hereditary, right?

(02:38:20):
Right, right, but I thinkanother A24 movie.

SPEAKER_02 (02:38:22):
I think that's the thing.
I I think that Gotham showedthat the independent community
is going to show up for her.
They have to show and it's goingto show up for the movie.

SPEAKER_03 (02:38:30):
I mean they have to, and then even then and I and I I
agree with you.

SPEAKER_02 (02:38:34):
I think she stands to be one of the prime
contenders to win a lot ofthese, you know, coveted uh
critics groups for best actress.
So I mean, all those things Ithink will will be top of mind
for uh people in the in thesecircles to want to keep her in
the conversation.

SPEAKER_03 (02:38:49):
Well, I worry about her, I have to say.
Um, well, then let's talk aboutthe last film for uh this week's
episode, um, which is one thatI'm really happy we're ending on
because it's one that I wasreally happy with and I was
really excited about and I had alot of energy, and I think is
also sort of frustrating becauseit has just been so mishandled

(02:39:10):
from the beginning, um, which isuh Amazon MGM's release of HEDA,
right?
Um, which features a fantasticTessa Thompson performance and
is uh a beautiful production,um, shot by Sean Bobbitt, great
costumes, production design,music by Hilder, from most
people most people recognizefrom Joker, um, who won an Oscar

(02:39:34):
for Joker.
Um, this is a tremendously welluh well-made film.
Nia DeCosto, writer-director.
Um, if you're a fan of hers fromCandyman, I certainly was.
Um totally totally lives up toyou know what you would expect
her her to do with herfilmmaking skills.
Um and so it's kind offrustrating to know that this

(02:39:57):
film got the back burnertreatment and that after the
hunt was opening the New YorkFilm Festival, that's kind of
you know upsetting.
Um and it's sort of interestingtoo because HETA, when it
premiered in Toronto, was morepolarized.
It was like was a Metacritic waslike barely 60, like 61, 62.
And it had a good bounce back asmore um critics started watching

(02:40:18):
the film, um, which was really,really great to see.
Um, I think it's a strong film.
I think it's just a victim ofthe way it's being positioned by
um its uh studio, which isAmazon MGM, but I don't think
that we've heard the last onTessa Thompson, and I certainly
don't think that we've heard thelast on Nina Haas, who did a

(02:40:41):
fantastic job in a uhgender-reversed role for
Loveboard, um, just did a greatjob.
And so to me, this is a filmthat not only that I enjoyed,
but I don't I think people maybe sleeping on it um in
categories like actress,supporting actress, costume
design was great.
Um, so I would definitely keepmy eye on it.

(02:41:03):
Um, and it's certainly one ofthe films that I enjoyed um the
most from Among This List.

SPEAKER_02 (02:41:08):
Right.
Um, I thought it was a goodfilm, very good film.
Um, I think Nina DeCosta takes avery, you know, uh iconic text
and she makes it her own.
Um, I was really impressed bythat.
I was impressed by the visualsand uh Sean Bobbit's
cinematography was I think veryornate, very alluring.
Um, the music um as well.

(02:41:28):
I think Tessa Thompson is great.
I think Nina Haas isspectacular.
You know, I think Nina Haas is,you know, one of our greatest
actresses alive.
Um if you see almost anything,but she can do absolutely
anything.
And if you've seen her work, youknow, um throughout the years,
um you know that already.
Um there's a reason why KateBlanchett says, you know, you're

(02:41:49):
the actress that I want to be.
Um because she's just thatamazing.
And she gets a killer role here,a killer role here.
Absolutely.
Um, and uh she's uh you know uhblazing whenever she's on
screen.
And I think Tessa Thompson doesa terrific job of you know
really committing to the part.

(02:42:10):
Um uh I do think that, you know,because of the part that she
plays, you know, it runs therisk of you know rubbing a
little bit aggressively.
Um for yeah, for for for thepublic, you know, because she's
sort of you know she's kind ofan antagonist in a way.
Um, but again, that the text isso um so well known that you

(02:42:32):
know that about this, uh, aboutthis story, um, had a gobbler.
And I think they're very strongperformances, and I think uh Nia
DeCosta really kind of shows herher muscle here as a director.
Um I think all of this becomesan issue in that Amazon chose
the wrong horse for after thehunt.

(02:42:54):
After the hunt got the Venicepremiere, after the hunt got the
New York opening film, and Heddawas left with scraps and it just
got Toronto premiere.
Um, it was in theaters for lessthan a week and it went right
into prime, it really got thesecondary treatment from Amazon.
It was clear, you know, whothey're prioritizing, they just

(02:43:14):
prioritized the wrong horse.
And so I just feel like as muchas I would love to see Tessa
Thompson and Nina Haas factorinto the acting categories, and
I do think that if somehowvoters were to see the film,
that could be a reality.
I think there's already been toomuch damage done by Amazon MGM

(02:43:35):
to make it a secondary horse,that that's gonna be an issue.
That's gonna be difficult.
I think it's a completelylegitimate take.
Um, it's gonna be difficult forvoters to prioritize it, it's
gonna be difficult for voters tosee it.
Um uh I don't know that Amazonwould or is even planning to
make a 180 and switch all theirresources onto um HETA.

(02:43:56):
It doesn't look that way withthe recent news of the Gotham
Award for After the Hunt.
Kind of feels like in thecontract, they're supposed to
push it, so they have to.
Um, and so I think that HETAmight be a victim to that.
Um, and I don't know if it canovercome that.
I don't know if it can, youknow, survive that.
Um uh, you know, being this, youknow, like I said, second horse

(02:44:19):
that's not gonna get the tenderlove and care that it needs.

SPEAKER_03 (02:44:22):
I think what's interesting is after seeing
After the Hunt is that I kind ofpegged in, and we talked about
in one of our previous episodes.
To me, After the Hunt is a filmthat gets nominated for nothing.
Um, but I mean, like on the wayto zero Oscar nominations, it
will also get zero nominations.
So I think some people are stillholding out to the Julia Roberts
actress drama.
I don't see that happening.
Um I think Tessa Thompson is ina good position to maybe get her

(02:44:47):
first Globe nomination and maybeeven her first SAG nomination
for this role.

SPEAKER_02 (02:44:52):
It's true that she hasn't been on her first tag,
yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (02:44:54):
And and because it is such a coveted, such a
beloved, such a studied andadmired text, I think that
really helps her.
And then I think that Nina Haas,because the role has been sort
of reinvented and you know, theygive it such a fresh spin, and
she's an amazing actor with atremendous career, that she can

(02:45:19):
she's uh gonna join her with forthose nominations.
I wouldn't be surprised at all,but to me, the sort of the sort
of explosion waiting to happenis that I don't know, there's
something about this movie thatI feel could do really well at
BAFTA.
Um yeah, um, I don't know ifit's just the involvement of

(02:45:43):
Nina Haas, but I would reallynot sleep on this film.
Um and I think that thoseactors, those particular actors,
are in a position now in theircareer where it would not
surprise me that they've, youknow, uh uh accrued enough

(02:46:04):
esteem from their peers tofinally break through.

SPEAKER_02 (02:46:08):
That that's what's frustrating about this is that
on paper, they make perfectsense.
On paper, we need that five thatfifth spot for actress.
Tessa Thompson has been workingfor a very long time, and she's
certainly in the caliber of inthe class of actor where they're
aware of her, they're aware ofher talent, they like her
choices, um, they like thecareer that she's building,

(02:46:29):
they're gonna be happy tonominate her.
Uh, Nina Haas is, you know, oneof the good one of the greatest
German actresses um who's yet toeven receive an Academy Award
nomination.
Um, and I'm sure there arepeople internationally and
domestically who would jump atthe chance to nominate her for
an Oscar for an acting award.

(02:46:50):
Um, and so on paper, she wouldmake perfect sense in the
supporting actress category, acategory that, by the way, I
might add is very volatile, butalso is missing a key thing,
which is a period piece.
Those period pieces tend to dovery well in this category.
Um, and we have limited optionshere, you know, between Marty

(02:47:12):
Supreme, Kiss of theSpider-Woman, HETA, that's about
it.
Oh, uh sinners, possibly, if youcount that, because it's also
fantasy, maybe not.
Um, a period piece tends to getinto supporting actress, at
least.
Um, and right now we're missingthat, you know.
So both of those contenderswould be would make perfect
sense to fill in those spots, anactress and supporting actress,

(02:47:34):
and for them to get it together.

SPEAKER_03 (02:47:35):
Yeah.
But will enough voters see it?
That's my big question.
I think that's my thing, is thatif you just get that small group
of people who are passionateabout Nina Haas, what they've
done with the role and what shedelivers, like that's the kind
of thing that would have been anabsolute slam dunk of a
nomination in 2014.

(02:47:56):
Had it been handledappropriately before the
streaming age and it had beenhandled by Fox Search Light or
Focus Features, it would havebeen an absolute slam dunk of a
nomination.
Um, and I still feel that as avoter, as an audience member,
you're going to see thatperformance and feel that.

(02:48:17):
I think it's very much like yousaid, the question is, are you
going to put the screener on?

SPEAKER_04 (02:48:21):
Right.

SPEAKER_03 (02:48:21):
That's it.
And so if Tessa Thompson, evenif she's by herself, can get
them to put the screener onbecause she was a Golden Globe
nominee, because there are sixspots, and because actress is
divided between two categories,if she's able to do that, I
really do feel like voters aregoing to be massively compelled
by what Nina Haas has done andHEDA.

SPEAKER_02 (02:48:43):
You know, I would love that.
I would love recognition forboth of those actresses.
But again, I just I don't knowif we can survive or if they can
survive the you know debaclethat has been Amazon choosing
after the hunt.
Um crazy.
So I don't know.
Uh again, on paper, they wouldsolve everything.
They would solve the bestactress race and they would

(02:49:04):
solve the best supportingactress race.
Right.
Can they get there?
I don't know.
I like the pair.
I like the pair.
Oh, 100%.
100%.
Yeah.
Tessa Thompson is someone likePaul Meskell.
They're aware and they want, orMichael B.
Jordan, they're aware, they wantto nominate them.
Yes.
And also that's a kind of coolsymmetry because they're
co-stars from Googler's Creed.

(02:49:26):
Exactly, kind of.
Ina Haas might have been closewith Tar.
People are aware she's, youknow, uh uh uh an iconic actress
um uh from Europe.
Um they they're gonna want tonominate people like that,
actors like that of thatcaliber.
It's just can can they survivethe fumble from after the hunt?

(02:49:48):
Um, so you know, I hope I hopefor them and they would solve
everything, but I'm not sure.

SPEAKER_03 (02:49:53):
Well, I certainly would keep an eye out for them,
and I think as the year startsto come to a close, I think you
may see both those names, youknow, show up higher on people's
lists than we're giving themcredit for.
Right.

SPEAKER_02 (02:50:05):
And so, you know, um, we're gonna try hard to make
an episode for next week becauseuh Wicked is coming out and we
have a lot of thoughts aboutWicked and where it could land.
Hopefully we'll be seeing itsoon.
Marty Supreme continues to gettraction from people who are
seeing it and feel that it's abona fide contender.
Um, and uh we'll also haveupdates on our predictions, so

(02:50:26):
be on the lookout for that.
Um follow us on our Twitter atAcademy Anon um and visit us on
our website at uhframesandflickr.com.
Both of them are listed on thecover art for the podcast.
And be sure to check us out,please.
All right, thank you so much forjoining us until next time.

(02:50:47):
It's been a pleasure.
The music on this episode,entitled Cool Cats, was
graciously provided by KevinMcLeod and Incompitech.com,
licensed under Creative Commonsby attribution three point zero.
HTTP calling forward slashforward slash Creative

(02:51:10):
Commons.org forward slashlicenses forward slash by
forward slash three point zero.

SPEAKER_03 (02:51:20):
Disclaimer The Academy Anonymous Podcast is in
no way affiliated or endorsed bythe Academy of Motion Picture
Arts and Sciences.

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