August 2, 2024 • 49 mins
Ten years ago, Mason Korea opened its doors at the Incheon Global Campus in Songdo, South Korea. Now, the campus offers degrees in six undergraduate and two graduate disciplines to students from around the world. To recognize this anniversary, President Gregory Washington is joined by former campus dean Robert Matz and associate professor Gyu Tag Lee to discuss the growth of Mason Korea, the influence of Korean pop on global culture, and the future of Mason at the Incheon Global Campus.
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(00:04):
Trailblazers in research,innovators in technology,
and those who simply have a good story:
all make up the fabric thatis George Mason University.
We're taking on the grand challengesthat face our students, graduates;
and higher education is ourmission and our passion.
Hosted by Mason PresidentGregory Washington,
this is the Access to Excellence podcast.
(00:26):
10 Years ago,
Mason Korea opened its doorsat the Incheon Global Campus in
Songdo, South Korea.
Now the campus offers degreesin six undergraduate and two
graduate disciplines to studentsliterally from around the world.
To recognize this anniversary,
(00:46):
I'm joined by campus Dean RobertMatz and associate professor Gyu Tag
Lee.
Dean Matz has served as thecampus dean of Mason Korea since
2019.
Under his leadership Mason Koreaenrollment grew by an average annual rate
of 12%. Additionally,
(01:06):
he worked with faculty to establishan enhanced governance structure
and he established an Industry-Universitycollaboration foundation--the
South Korean corollary toa US Office of Sponsored
Programs. Associate professorof global affairs Gyu Tag Lee,
(01:27):
who received his doctorate in culturalstudies from George Mason in 2013,
has been teaching atMason Korea since 2014.
He is one of the most foremost expertsin the world on Korean pop music,
colloquially known as K-pop,
and is a committee memberof the Korean Music Awards.
(01:50):
Robert, Gyu Tag, welcome to the show.
Thank you. Glad to be here.
Thank you.
So let's talk a little bit aboutMason Korea and where it is.
I know I gave a briefdescription early on,
but describe the setup of the MasonKorea campus and its connection to the
Incheon Global Campus.
(02:11):
Sure.
So Songdo where the IncheonGlobal Campus is located
is about 25 miles from Seoul and very
close to the Incheon airport,just a 20, 30 minute drive.
So it's an excellent locationand we are on one of these
global campus hubs,
(02:32):
which we share with threeother branch campuses
of US and European universities. Sothere are four of us together here.
At Mason Korea, we offer a fullrange of general ed courses,
the Mason Core, six majors,two graduate programs,
(02:52):
and we have about a thousandstudents. For our undergraduates,
it is a three-one program,
meaning they spend three years onthis campus and one year on the
Fairfax campus in the US or onone of our other US campuses.
In terms of how we fit with Songdo,
Songdo is one of the threedistricts that are the Incheon
(03:17):
Free Economic Zone and theseare zones that seek to promote
international business.
We support international businessesand the general internationalization
of the Songdo area.
Outstanding.
So what parts of theMason Korea experience can
students expect or what part ofthe George Mason experience can
(03:41):
students expect whenthey attend Mason Korea?
So one of the things we're mostproud of is that they can expect just
about every aspect ofthe Mason experience.
When people from GeorgeMason come up to Mason Korea,
one of the things they oftencomment on is how much it feels like
(04:02):
they're on one of our US campuses.
It's not only that courses arethe same, curricula are the same,
but we really try to infuse MasonKorea with the same cultural
values, the same spiritthat we find at Mason.
So very much will seem familiar.There are some differences.
(04:23):
We are smaller,
so we do not have the range ofmajors or courses that the home
campus has.
And that's one of the nice things aboutstudents being able to spend a year at
the home campus and takecourses that we can't offer.
But the other part of that smallsize is there's a very tight communal
feel here. I,
(04:44):
I sometimes say we're sort of also likea small liberal arts college in Ohio as
well as a big research university.
And of course the otherdifference is you're in Korea.
And so for our US students,
that means being in a verydifferent country and for our
Korean students, that means closerto home, which they also enjoy.
Uh, and my last visit there in particular,
(05:06):
every time I come I'm justblown away with how the
campus feels like George Mason in
Fairfax, you know,
we even got the statue of good oldGeorge standing outside of the building
there as well. But the feelof the campus is a Mason feel,
(05:27):
which I find to be prettyphenomenal, quite honestly,
how that is replicatedthousands of miles away.
It was done really intentionallyby the people who've set it up.
One of the features of howthe campus is run here is that
the dean and the associate deansall have counterparts back in
(05:50):
Fairfax. All of our staff havecounterparts back in Fairfax.
They communicate with them regularly.
We have a program to sendstaff from Mason Korea to the
US campuses and we alsoregularly have faculty
from the US campus comeand teach at Mason Korea.
(06:12):
And these features areunique to Mason Korea.
The other international campuses don'tnecessarily do all these things and I
think that's part of what helps usmaintain a close identity with the home
campus, which is very important to us.
Well you know,
you spoke of these other universitiesand so what is the impact on
(06:33):
our professors and their research andhaving faculty from different disciplines,
different institutions and quitefrankly different countries all
inhabit the same set of facilities?
I think we have cross-disciplinaryconversations both within the building and
among faculty from other universities,
(06:56):
from the other branchcampus universities here,
as well as cross-cultural conversations.
But I think it'd be great to turnthat over to Gyu Tag and ask him
how he's found any kinds of relationshipswith other faculty from some
of the other campuses.
Interestingly,
in one of the Korean conferencethat I presented--it was last year
(07:19):
I think--there was a alsoprofessor who taught at our
neighbor.
And I thought it was very interestingthat though we didn't have a kind of very
active relationship with thefaculty in other campus here at
IGC,
but still we could see how wefelt something kind of the very
(07:39):
similar thing,
kind of the very interestingexperience here where faculty from
different department,
different discipline and I mean evendifferent college working together at the
very same building gave us akind of opportunity to know
each other.
I mean not only betweendifferent university but even among ourselves in Mason
(08:02):
Korea that we may not geton very opportunity easily
in other campuses to knowthe professor or faculty
whose major is very different from us,
which gave us kind of the interestingopportunity to know what they are
doing and what kind of the uh,
(08:23):
research interest or academic field thatthey are in and how can we know each
other to understand each other better.
And also to know each otherbetter in very different field,
which has widened my informationand knowledge what is going
on in other fields of academia,
which is kind of very inspirationalso for me to know something
(08:45):
different from my uh, ownuh, academic background.
I'll just mention that one of the thingswe started to do over the last couple
years is have an annual researchshowcase with all four universities
and I think that's for studentsand faculty presenting their work.
And I think that's been one otheroccasion where faculty across the
(09:07):
universities here have beenable to get to know one another.
So Gyu Tag, as a George Mason alum,
you've actually experienced learningand teaching on both the Fairfax
campus and the Mason Koreacampus. So first of all,
I want you to talk a little bit aboutthe similarities and then I want you to
(09:27):
highlight your techniques forbalancing multiple different,
different and perhaps sometimesopposing cultural practices in
the two countries.
One of the similarity that I can findhere in Mason Korea and the Mason
Fairfax that I studiedlike 10 or more years ago,
the biggest similarity that Ifound is the way how we feel the
(09:51):
actual cultural diversity both here in
Mason Korea as well as, I meanthe thing that I felt in Fairfax,
the cultural diversity or other kindsof diversity that I found Fairfax,
which made me very surprising becauseI could not see this kinds of diversity
when I studied here in South Korea,
(10:11):
but when I came back toKorea and have worked here,
I could see how Mason could bringthis kinds of culture diversity
or other kinds of diversityto here Mason Korea in Songdo,
which made a big difference betweenlet's say Korean colleges going Korean
universities and American universities.
(10:31):
So I think this is the very bigopportunity for Mason Korea to introduce
or to let Korean studentsor even Korean society know,
to know how Americanuniversity, of course there,
there are many similaritiesbetween Korean,
South Korean and American university,
but how American university can showsome kind of different world to Korean
(10:53):
society as well as the Korean students.
I have been teachinga course called K-Pop:
Korean Popular Culture since 2014,
even till the very lastsemester, which is spring 2024.
And there are always student fromFairfax and student from Korea almost
(11:13):
half and half,
or sometimes more American student thanKorean student in that K-pop class.
Though I have been teaching some otherclasses also there are like American
student and Korean student and Icould see that although they are
studying at the very same classroomtogether, but I could see that there,
there is a kind of the barrierbetween them because they do
(11:36):
not know each other, not very well.
So I try to make them moremixed. For example, I give,
when I give a group work,
I try to make a intentionally like halfAmerican student with the half Korean
student in just one group.
Not only just the group discussion inthe classroom but also the group work or
other kind of group presentation.
(11:57):
And with this kinds of opportunity theycame to have a chance to know each other
and they come to understand each otherhow they are different as well as how
they are very similar as the verysame age, which is their early,
mostly early their twenties.
Also I gave kind of thetopic for them to discuss
(12:19):
or to compare what is the differenceor what is the similarity between US
and South Korea. For example,
when there was a COVID-19 and thereis a very similar thing happened both
in United States and South Korea,
but government as well as the student hada very different experience about this
COVID-19 in their own countries.
So when they talked about this COVID-19experience that they had in the United
(12:43):
States and South Korea,
they could get a chance to know whatis the difference between US and South
Korea, the cultural differences orother kinds of like political, economic,
cultural context differences as wellas the similarity between US and South
Korea, which made them to feelmore together as a Mason students.
Amazing. So it'sinteresting: DC, Maryland,
(13:09):
and Virginia,
if you look at that metropolitanarea where all three of
those entities kind of meet--we,
we affectionately call it theDMV--that area is home to the
third largest populationof Koreans in the US and
about half of those residents actuallyreside right here in Fairfax County.
(13:34):
So you know, and this, thisquestion's for both of you.
Talk a little bit about thebenefit of having a campus in Korea
connected to such a large Koreapopulation in and around George Mason
proper here in Fairfax.
I think one of the greatbenefits is that, as I mentioned,
our undergraduates spend a year,
(13:55):
usually their senior year on theFairfax campus and on the one
hand there's probably no better placeor certainly one of the best places to
experience America isin the capital city of
America. So they're getting aquintessential American experience.
At the same time, when I talkto them, I always reassure them,
(14:17):
don't worry, you're gonna havereally easy access to Korean culture,
to Korean foods. You can go to thelocal H Mart, plenty of Korean barbecue,
Korean chicken, Korean people.
So you'll have a little bit of thefeeling and taste of home as well.
And in fact, as I prepare to, toleave for the US from this position,
(14:41):
I also feel reassured that therewill still be those aspects
of Korean culture. And then I thinkit's also great for our US students,
they have Korean friends, they obviously,they know global Korean culture,
but they go to Koreatownsin Annandale or Centerville.
They also are surrounded by Koreanculture and are interested in it.
(15:04):
And then they say, Hey, I want more.
I'll spend a semester studying in Korea.
That's really cool.
I mean yes, uh, that's true.
So just like Robert mentioned since thereis a big Korean community in Fairfax
or DC or Maryland, uh,Washington DC Metropolitan area,
many Fairfax student comingto Mason Korea to study.
(15:25):
They already know muchabout Korean culture,
including like Korean pop culture,
which is very getting popularthese days as well as Korean food.
Or some of them alreadyknow some Korean words,
languages or some very like basicwords including or aannyeong-haseyo
or kamsahamnida. I I I,
I was very surprised when I firstlymet those like Fairfax student and
(15:49):
to see they already knowmuch about Korean culture,
but still they want to know more aboutit when they come to Mason Korea because
they can get more direct experiencevisiting some interesting places or
even going to K-Pop concert or goingto the other experiential learning with
professors or other student in ourMason Korea as one of the part of our
(16:12):
program,
which also give them moreopportunity to know even better
about Korean culture thatthey already knew some of it.
And I would just add some of themcome with much more Korean than that.
We had a student come from the NorthernVirginia area who pretty much taught
herself, while she was in highschool, Korean over by YouTube.
(16:34):
And in her first semester I thinkwon our international business
districts contest for the bestforeign speaker of Korean.
Outstanding.
Yeah, her accent is, for those ofus who struggle, is is remarkable.
Really good.
So the US State Department classifies
(16:55):
Korean as a category four language,
which means it's essentiallythe highest level.
They estimate that it willtake a native English speaker
88 weeks or 2200 classroom hours to
reach professional working proficiency.
(17:15):
This kind of dovetails directly intothe conversation, uh, Dean Matz,
you just brought forward and giventhe fact that I still believe that it,
I know it used to be the case,
but I still believe that George Masonoffers the only Korean language program
in Virginia, if I'm not mistaken.
How do you both compare MasonKorea and George Mason's
(17:39):
Korean language and culture?
How do you compare thosetwo in helping students gain
professional working proficiency?
When George Masonlanguage students come up,
they have a range of Koreancourses they can take here at
Mason Korea,
(17:59):
but they also get to practicetheir Korean in the community and
that certainly helps them.
Although because we're aninternational business district,
they actually have to work at it.There's a lot of English here.
They gotta be kind of bold and say, no,
I wanna talk to you in Korean becauseotherwise people will speak with them in
English.
(18:20):
The other way they get that proficiencyoutside the class is we have an
internship program for studentsto work in jobs where they
have to use Korean. So for example,
some of these are office positionswithin Mason Korea where translation is
required and so they will dosome of the translation for us.
(18:41):
So Robert, you've beenlearning Korean as well, if,
if our conversations yield anything,
so what is it like to be backin the classroom as a student
and as a professor?
I really loved it.
I became a professor because I lovedbeing a student and that love never
really goes away.
We talk about the commitment tolifelong learning at Mason and
(19:05):
I really believe in it.
One of the things when I am givingadvice to students at a convocation
speech or something, I I tellthem to try and learn everything.
Don't think of somethings as requirements.
You just never know where you'lluse something you learned.
And also that just learninghow to learn is a great thing.
(19:26):
So I surprise myself whenI'm in the Korean classroom.
I feel like I'm a 21-year-oldstudent again. Uh,
although I don't think I have theplastic brain of a 21-year-old. But, uh,
but I very much enjoy it.
Okay, so spill the beans (19:40):
what,
what are we talking aboutgrade wise? How did you do?
I got a C plus.
Really?
Really?
Wow.
Yeah. Um.
It must have been, it musthave been a pretty hard course.
Uh, I understand that Koreanis a category four language.
(20:01):
.
And it was,
and I am gonna retake it when I comeback to the US I will retake that
course, but you know, I enjoy it.
Do you feel that you are proficientenough to get around the community
and you know,
and get yourself out of an emergencysituation if you had to utilize basic
(20:24):
services and the like?
I definitely feel more competent in Korean
than even a couple of years ago.So things are a little easier.
I understand signs a little better.
I can usually explain to peoplewhat I want in a very basic
(20:44):
Korean, uh, so it helps.
But really I'm learning Korean becauseI love the culture, I love language.
So that's really what pulls me to it.
So this.
If, if my life depended onit, I might be in trouble.
, I hear you. Ifyour life depended on it,
you'd be surprised how much you knew.
So according to the ModernLanguage Association latest census:
(21:10):
enrollment in courses otherthan English dropped by
16.6% overall between 2016
and 2020.
One of the very fewexceptions to this is Korean,
where enrollments grew by 38.3%
(21:30):
from 2016 to 2021.
And that now puts Koreain the top 10 relative to
language enrollment.
Some of this growth is attributedto the growth and a popularity
of Korean pop music or K-popamong American students.
(21:51):
So Gyu Tag, as a K-pop expert,
what do you see as the appeal ofK-pop music among American students?
As I've been teaching K-pop relatedcourses for several years and
there have been many like US studentstaking that course, we had um,
many opportunity to discuss what makesthem to fall in love with K-pop because
(22:15):
most of them decided to cometo Mason Korea to study because
they were already K-pop fans. So, uh,
I could see based on their own opinionas well as like my own analysis,
I could see that there aretwo strengths for K-pop to
be popularized among US studentas well as like global audience.
(22:39):
One is the thing which can beconsidered as the hybrid, uh,
character of K-pop,
which means that K-pop isvery kind of global pop music,
but still it is very local,
which means that K-pop has some kindof like general or universal characters
that could appeal towider global audience,
(22:59):
but still it is different from let'ssay American pop music or other kinds of
global pop music because still it'svery Korean or still it is very local.
So when we listen to K-pop music,
I believe all of you havelistened at least one K-pop song,
maybe Gangnam Style or others.
But you could see that it is notvery Korean traditional or ethnic
(23:21):
music that you might expectbefore listening to K-pop actually
it. Which means that it is actuallya part of global pop music,
which is not a veryethnic traditional one.
But it does not meanthat it is only the very,
let's say copycat or imitation ofAmerican pop music because it has strong
Korean characters including Koreanlyrics or some kind of very melody
(23:45):
lines, very Korean type or theway how it is represented by their
musician.
Usually call this K-pop idols withtheir like choreography with the way
how they perform on the stage or withthe way how they show their own style in
visual or audio image,
which makes it a bit differentfrom American pop music or other kinds of global
(24:08):
pop music.
So it is very similar quite but notexactly the same with the American pop
music, which could appeal to USaudience as well as global audience.
And the other thing that I can findis that K-pop is something like very
fan made participatory culture or music,
which means that it was not madeby industry only or it was not
(24:32):
made by government plan,
but made by fans activechoice that some of them found
K-pop on YouTube or other kinds ofsocial media as a way of like watching
music video or other kinds of parodyvideo. And they found it very interesting.
Then it became very viralwith all those audiences who
(24:54):
accidentally found K-pop very interesting.
So it think kind of the wordof mouth became kind of very
stronger mostly by fans power to become a
global phenomenon that also couldattract US student coming to our campus
to study to and to know moreabout K-pop but also the other
(25:16):
Korean culture,
which means that K-pop is nowbecoming a kind of gateway for them to
introduce other Korean cultureincluding language history, food,
et cetera.
How, how would you classify the music?
Like if you were to take the US equivalent
in say K-pop is likeblank music in America,
(25:41):
how would you define it?
I think that K-pop is very similarin some respect kind of--there's
a very big similarity betweenK-pop and I should say Latin pop.
I mean it is very local kind of thing.
When you listen to Latin pop sound,
you could see wow it is very Latin withthis lyrics with the musical style,
(26:03):
but it does not mean that it cannot bea part of US music. So K-pop is very,
that kind of music. It isvery local Korean pop music,
but still it is not verydifferent from American things.
So if I say in one word,
blah blah music and I could seethat K-pop is very hybridized,
global pop music that could appeal toUSA audience as well as global audience.
(26:27):
You know, it's interesting but I see it,
it has some elements of Koreanculture as you highlighted,
but if you really, you know,
kind of close your eyes anddon't think about the words,
the rhythm, the beat, it's pop music.
Yes, that's true.
(26:47):
And one thing I would like to alsofocus is that K-pop has been very
much influenced by AfricanAmerican music such as R&B,
hip-hop or soul music.
So one of our George Mason faculty,
Crystal Anderson actuallywrote a book about how K-pop
has been very influenced byAfrican American pop music.
(27:10):
The book title that shewrote was Soul in Seoul.
I think it was always very interestingbecause when we listen to K-pop,
just like you mentioned Dr. Washington,
it is very pop music but especiallyI can see big influence of African
American music styles such asR&B, hip-hop or soul in K-pop,
which is very interesting then,
which makes us to see how K-pop hasbeen a kind of the playground for Korean
(27:34):
or other global audienceto see local American
and other kinds of global popmusic all blended together.
Yeah, I mean you, you're absolutely right.People don't realize that, you know,
American pop music has strongconnection as it roots to
soul and and R&B music as well.
(27:55):
So all of those pieces are kindof coming together in a very
unique way in K-pop. While I was there,
I was there not too long agoas you know, I think it was uh,
about a week now I've beenback. But while I was there,
something unique was goingon in pop music there
(28:16):
in Korea that we don't experiencehere in the US and that is
that a number of itsmale pop stars, you know,
had to go off and serve in amilitary and had compulsory uh,
military service.
And I think K-pop starJin completed his military
service and was actuallyjust completed it last week
(28:40):
or about that time and was actuallygetting reintegrated back into the music.
Is that a phenomenon that you're seeing?
It actually shows the characteristicsof K-pop as being local,
which means that all those (28:52):
Yes, just like you mentioned, Dr. Washington,
all Korean males whoare in their 20 have to
join the military serviceas a mandatory service.
And even the very famousglobal pop star cannot be an
exception. So I could seehow they are very Korean,
(29:13):
which means that it isvery Korean culture,
though the music or other kind ofthing is very global or American
influence or global influence pop music.
So it cannot be fully separatedfrom Korean cultural or social
context.
So Robert,
you've often said that it'simportant to distinguish between
(29:35):
globalization as Americanization and
globalization in its ideal form, right?
You see it as a two-way exchangeand learning experience.
How does Mason Korea embodythe globalization ideal of a
two-way street?
(29:56):
Oh, I think it really does. Andwe've been talking about that.
The students who come fromthe US, on the one hand,
part of the reason they're coming isbecause of the outflow of Korean culture
worldwide as part of the processesof globalization including to the US.
And so when they come they are even more
(30:18):
wanting to learn about Korean life,
Korean culture, and they seeaspects of the Korean state,
how Koreans govern themselves. Thatis a learning experience for them.
I think a really importantlearning experience.
And that's part of being global Mason,that they are seeing this other world.
(30:39):
At the same time,
our Korean or other internationalstudents are learning about the US through
some of the ways we teach, throughthe content of what we teach.
So it really is a two-way street.
And I remember theinternational business district,
the International Free EconomicZone rather signed an MOU with
(31:00):
all of the IGC universities,
the ancient global campus universitiesand some other organizations within
Incheon clearing the, IFEZas a multilingual city,
a dual language city, English and Korean.
And within Incheon, thebroader area that the,
if a district is located, therewas some concern about this,
(31:23):
there was maybe a worry that people wouldhave to learn English or that things
would become Americanized.
And one of the things Ireally believe is that as IFEZ
and Songdo,
Incheon opens itself up more to
uh, the US to our USstudents coming over here,
(31:44):
they're coming over really wanting tolearn Korean. One of the great things, uh,
I think one of the really,
going back to what it's like beinga student in Korean classes here,
of course I'm not with the Korean studentswho don't need to take these classes.
I'm with the US students who come overand it's just wonderful seeing their
passion to learn Korean.
(32:06):
And quite remarkable too becauseyou know, Korean is spoken by,
there are 51 millionKorean citizens roughly.
It's not a worldwide languagein the way say Chinese is
or Russian,
but here are all these students from theUS who are really sitting down trying
(32:26):
to learn this quite difficult language.
And I think that's partof the two way street.
Understood, understood.
So I think this connectsdirectly to the IGC or
the Incheon global campus,
'cause one of the goals of the IGC isto nurture the next generation of global
leaders in education, economics,industry, culture and the arts.
(32:51):
So how do you feel that Mason's presencein South Korea contributes to this
goal?
I think in a couple ways. First,there's knowledge exchange as we,
uh,
seek to leverage US expertiseboth here and from the
US campuses in the service ofKorean industry and government.
(33:12):
But I think even more profoundly,
we're doing it through our educationalprograms and we are really helping to
create students who are global leaders,
who are multilingual and multicultural.
They have multiculturalcompetencies and that's,
as Korea again continues towant to be very international.
(33:34):
They want students trainedwho can move across cultures.
And that's one of the thingswe're doing here. And I,
and I've talked about the passionof our US students to learn Korean,
but I'm also just in awe everyday of our Korean students
who are doing a full college curriculumin their second language and doing it
(33:57):
very well.
So, you know, this isinteresting you know,
we always talk about how thesecultures intermix and we talk about the
popularity of K-pop on aglobal scale, but Gyu Tag,
how is it actually perceived in Korea
(34:18):
and how does that connectto this whole goal of
Mason contributing to culture and the arts
as, as expressed, uh, by the IGC.
When firstly K-pop became internationally
known or internationally popular?
(34:39):
It was firstly in East Asia inlate 1990 or early 2000 then
outside East Asia since the early2010, especially the big hit,
after the big hit of GangnamStyle. Interestingly,
not many Korean people actuallybelieved that Korean culture,
including K-pop and other kindsof Korean culture or Korea itself,
(35:01):
could be recognized by, internationally,
by people living outside East Asia.
It was very first time forKorea to be actually a part of
the big global, although ithas been a part of big global,
but still South Korean peoplethemselves did not really feel
(35:22):
that they are actually thepart of big global world.
But when K-pop has becomepopular in United States,
in Latin America or in Europeor other parts of the world,
Korean people can seehow Korean culture can
appeal to the wider global audience andhow Korean as a country including their
(35:43):
language,
their history and other thingscan be the very thing that
could draw attention fromthe international or other
like other countries oroutside Korea itself.
And Mason Korea can be some kindof the very example how Korea
could accept the culture or the system
(36:06):
which is not their own,
but try to learn somethingfrom the American university,
American education system,
or other kind of American cultureand to blend or to hybridize with
this local context to make somethingnew or create something new,
which has both characteristics, whichis the very advantage of American thing,
(36:27):
the advantage of Korean thing thatcould be very creative advantage that
had not existed before.
So K-pop and Mason Korea has a verysimilar character that they can
create something based on twodifferent culture but making something
similar but still very differentthing that has not been expected by
(36:50):
anyone.
You know,
it's changing and it's expandingand scaling way beyond K-pop. Right?
When I was in Korea and we were talkingto Korean leadership there they not
only talked about K-pop, butthey also talked about K-food,
they also talked about K-culture. Right?
(37:11):
And so you're seeing thisexpansion and scaling of all things
Korea into the global diaspora.What, what are your thoughts on that?
I think it was very interesting,just like I mentioned a bit earlier,
of course it was K-pop first,
but when global audienceincluding like American audience
(37:32):
came to know about K-pop andcame to fall in love with K-pop,
then many of them try tofind some other Korean thing,
which means that K-pop is only the verygateway for them to know more about
Korean culture.
Just like you mentioned Dr. Washingtonsuch as Korean food or other Korean
history as other Korean culture. Forexample, Netflix series, Squid Game,
(37:54):
which is kind of this series globallypopular like a couple of years ago
was a very interesting, uh,opportunity for global audience.
Not only to know about Korean TV series,
but also to know more about Koreanculture that was described in the
series such as Korean traditional games,
(38:15):
even other kinds of everydayfood that was not introduced to
international audience.
But now they come to know more aboutKorean culture by those things.
And when even they cometo have interest in Korea,
then they also try tovisit Korea to see what
is actually going on. Notonly about tasting the food,
(38:37):
the actual ethnic Korean food in Korea,
but also to know more about Koreanculture, Korean history, Korean language.
So I think it is veryinteresting thing that K-pop
or other kinds of Koreanpop culture is showing the
very diversity of Korean culture or theother attractiveness of Korean culture
(38:59):
that is also working well oninternational audience that makes also
South Korea as a part of theglobal world that was not
expected by Korean themselves.
I would just add that when students come,
they can enjoy the food that they'vegotten a version of back in the US.
They also experience things thatyou can't experience on Netflix
(39:24):
or at your local Koreanrestaurant. For example,
the way space is organized in Korea,
because Korea is a small countryrelative to its population,
there's much more public space.
There aren't many private yards theway we have in the US but there are
beautiful parks. And Koreais also a very safe country.
(39:46):
Parks do not close at sunsetas often parks in the US do,
but rather they light up at nightand there's this wonderful kind of
festive feeling.
It's a real experience that you canonly get by being here or some parts,
but you can only get by being here.
Well Robert, as we start to wrap up here,
(40:09):
what have you learned from yourtime as campus dean that you
hope to bring back to the Fairfax campus?
I would say, first of all,
I've also brought a lot thatI learned in Fairfax to Korea.
I very much value the time that I,
I worked in the US but Ithink what I learned here even
(40:29):
more is the need to takerisks and keep going.
We're small and we have togrow and we, it's very complex.
Sometimes you just gotta say, yeah,
we're gonna try that and if it doesn'twork exactly right the first time,
we'll figure it out on the secondpass because you gotta be nimble
(40:51):
here. And so I,
I think I've gotten even a little moreconfidence to just go ahead and do stuff.
Outstanding. Outstanding. So Gyu Tag,
what could the United Stateslearn from South Korea
regarding educationalpolicy, culture and music?
(41:13):
I mean, first of all,
if there is something that US couldlearn from Mason Korea and Korean
education or Korean society,
it could be something like--ofcourse I know that America is a
country of cultural diversityand just like I mentioned,
is this the very strength that MasonKorea has provided to Korean student
(41:36):
who did not have much experienceabout this kind of cultural diversity.
But still, I could see when US campus,
our Mason actually openedtheir campus here in Songdo,
there are a lot of thingsthat US university,
even the university with diversity,
Mason did not know muchabout Korea itself.
(41:57):
Although there are many Koreans orKorean Americans who have studied Mason,
including myself, who wasan alum of the George Mason.
So it could be a greatopportunity for US or US
education to know aboutwhat is the actual diversity
that could be a part of USeducation system that they could
(42:20):
learn here from local Koreancontext and how could they
embrace all kinds of Korean students orother kinds of international students to
make them as one altogether.
So I think it will be a greatexperience for US university to make
these kinds of altogether universityoutside US setting and the
(42:43):
music.
I mean it is very interesting thatthese days when I see the newly
debuted K-pop band,there are some musicians,
members of the newly debutedK-pop band who is not Korean,
who is not East Asian,but even like US people,
including with the very diverse ethnicbackgrounds including African American,
(43:05):
Hispanic, East Asian, or Indian American,et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
So I think it is very interestingthat although K-pop began as a Korean
music with all Korean musicians,
now it's actually getting really globalwith people with diverse backgrounds.
So K-pop can be actual real
(43:25):
global music with all kinds of diversity,
still maintaining some kindof Korean cultural aspect,
which could be the veryfuture of K-pop thing,
or which could be the thingthat can show how the actual
globalization can beachieved to other country,
including United States.
So Robert, as we start topull all of this together,
(43:48):
right now we have an increasing numberof American universities who are
partnering with Korean campuses,
an increasing numbers of American studentswho are now studying abroad in Korea.
So how is the US higher education system
influencing South Korea'shigher education system and what
(44:10):
do you think is the path forward?
So that was one of the reasonsthat Mason Korea and the other
IGC universities wereestablished to provide a model,
a different kind of model foreducation. So part of it is,
you know,
the way that we educate more dialogic and
(44:33):
more participatory thanKorean universities.
But the other part is along thelines that Gyu Tag was talking
about, that we really emphasize diversity.
And that's something that Korea isvery much grappling with right now,
just as we are in a different wayin the US trying to imagine what a
(44:53):
multicultural Korea looks like and howto integrate immigrants into Korean
society. And I think in the end,
even more than pedagogy,
when the Korean governmentlike the Korean,
the Incheon, educationdepartment looks to us,
they're interested in what we sayabout pedagogy, but they're really,
(45:16):
I think even more interested inhow to create a multicultural
society.
So that I think is one ofthe values or characteristics
that we are bringing to Koreathat Koreans are looking at. Well,
I was just gonna say also,
when I think about what we have to learnfrom the Korean educational system,
(45:38):
Korea is a great place to be a professor.
The value of educationin Korea is really high.
I think they have the highest orone of the highest percentages of
college educated population in the world.
And to be a professor in Koreais to be really respected and
learning is really respected. You know,I think that that's a model for us.
(46:02):
Outstanding. Outstanding.
So where do you hope to seeMason Korea in 10 years?
I'm gonna ask it from you and I'mgonna ask it of Gyu Tag as we wrap up.
I hope in 10 years that wewill go from a thousand to 2000
students also,
that we will increase the number ofstudents from the US doing study abroad
(46:26):
here. Of course, increasing that numberof students means some new programs.
And I think academic programs,
I think we especially want to add someacademic programs that relate very well
to some of the target industriesin Incheon, for example,
in the biosciences andin information sciences.
And also there for expanding ourrelationships with Incheon and Korean
(46:50):
industry and organizations.
And I hope that we continue to have thisclose relationship between Mason Korea
campus and the US campus,
including faculty continuing tocome over from the US campus.
And I hope when I retire,
whoever is running the show here willhave me aboard to teach them English
(47:10):
courses.
. Outstanding,outstanding. Gyu Tag?
Yes. In 10 years,
I mean actually Robert mentioned thatMason Korea has worked something like
liberal arts colleges and I reallylike that characteristics. But still,
I also hope that in 10 yearsthere will be more graduate school
(47:32):
here in Mason Korea because graduateschool is always very necessary for
more researchers, creative researchers.
Of course we have doing ourresearches with our best effort,
but graduate school couldbe the thing that we also
can make our Mason Korea not onlyas a, I mean very academic college,
(47:53):
but also as a research institute.
And the other thing I would like to sayabout Mason Korea in 10 years is that
Mason Korea could be thehub for study of East Asia
and East Asian culture and society,even politics and other economy as well.
Because South Korea is agreat geographical location between China and Japan.
(48:13):
But what also we can see EastAsia and all part of Asia,
the very broad uh, perspective,
which could be our advantage tomake Mason Korea as a part of
like study hub of like East Asian studies.
So I hope that in 10 years,
Mason Korea could work as a kindof hub for East Asian studies
(48:37):
as well.
Well this is outstanding, outstanding.
I hope both outcomes come to fruition.
Well, that's about all the time we have.
I want to thank you both forjoining me and thank you Robert
for your five years of dedicatedservice to Mason Korea.
Been a pleasure.
(48:57):
And cheers to both of you for10 groundbreaking years of Mason
Korea and we hope to see manymore in the years to come.
So I am Mason PresidentGregory Washington.
Thank you all for listening and tunein next time for more conversations
that show why we areall together different.
(49:22):
If you like what youheard on this podcast,
go to podcast.gmu.edu formore of Gregory Washington's
conversations with thethought leaders, experts,
and educators who take on the grandchallenges facing our students, graduates,
and higher education.That's podcast.gmu.edu.
Trailblazers in research,innovators in technology,
and those who simply have a good story:
all make up the fabric thatis George Mason University.
We're taking on the grand challengesthat face our students, graduates;
and higher education is ourmission and our passion.
Hosted by Mason PresidentGregory Washington,
this is the Access to Excellence podcast.
(00:26):
10 Years ago,
Mason Korea opened its doorsat the Incheon Global Campus in
Songdo, South Korea.
Now the campus offers degreesin six undergraduate and two
graduate disciplines to studentsliterally from around the world.
To recognize this anniversary,
(00:46):
I'm joined by campus Dean RobertMatz and associate professor Gyu Tag
Lee.
Dean Matz has served as thecampus dean of Mason Korea since
2019.
Under his leadership Mason Koreaenrollment grew by an average annual rate
of 12%. Additionally,
(01:06):
he worked with faculty to establishan enhanced governance structure
and he established an Industry-Universitycollaboration foundation--the
South Korean corollary toa US Office of Sponsored
Programs. Associate professorof global affairs Gyu Tag Lee,
(01:27):
who received his doctorate in culturalstudies from George Mason in 2013,
has been teaching atMason Korea since 2014.
He is one of the most foremost expertsin the world on Korean pop music,
colloquially known as K-pop,
and is a committee memberof the Korean Music Awards.
(01:50):
Robert, Gyu Tag, welcome to the show.
Thank you. Glad to be here.
Thank you.
So let's talk a little bit aboutMason Korea and where it is.
I know I gave a briefdescription early on,
but describe the setup of the MasonKorea campus and its connection to the
Incheon Global Campus.
(02:11):
Sure.
So Songdo where the IncheonGlobal Campus is located
is about 25 miles from Seoul and very
close to the Incheon airport,just a 20, 30 minute drive.
So it's an excellent locationand we are on one of these
global campus hubs,
(02:32):
which we share with threeother branch campuses
of US and European universities. Sothere are four of us together here.
At Mason Korea, we offer a fullrange of general ed courses,
the Mason Core, six majors,two graduate programs,
(02:52):
and we have about a thousandstudents. For our undergraduates,
it is a three-one program,
meaning they spend three years onthis campus and one year on the
Fairfax campus in the US or onone of our other US campuses.
In terms of how we fit with Songdo,
Songdo is one of the threedistricts that are the Incheon
(03:17):
Free Economic Zone and theseare zones that seek to promote
international business.
We support international businessesand the general internationalization
of the Songdo area.
Outstanding.
So what parts of theMason Korea experience can
students expect or what part ofthe George Mason experience can
(03:41):
students expect whenthey attend Mason Korea?
So one of the things we're mostproud of is that they can expect just
about every aspect ofthe Mason experience.
When people from GeorgeMason come up to Mason Korea,
one of the things they oftencomment on is how much it feels like
(04:02):
they're on one of our US campuses.
It's not only that courses arethe same, curricula are the same,
but we really try to infuse MasonKorea with the same cultural
values, the same spiritthat we find at Mason.
So very much will seem familiar.There are some differences.
(04:23):
We are smaller,
so we do not have the range ofmajors or courses that the home
campus has.
And that's one of the nice things aboutstudents being able to spend a year at
the home campus and takecourses that we can't offer.
But the other part of that smallsize is there's a very tight communal
feel here. I,
(04:44):
I sometimes say we're sort of also likea small liberal arts college in Ohio as
well as a big research university.
And of course the otherdifference is you're in Korea.
And so for our US students,
that means being in a verydifferent country and for our
Korean students, that means closerto home, which they also enjoy.
Uh, and my last visit there in particular,
(05:06):
every time I come I'm justblown away with how the
campus feels like George Mason in
Fairfax, you know,
we even got the statue of good oldGeorge standing outside of the building
there as well. But the feelof the campus is a Mason feel,
(05:27):
which I find to be prettyphenomenal, quite honestly,
how that is replicatedthousands of miles away.
It was done really intentionallyby the people who've set it up.
One of the features of howthe campus is run here is that
the dean and the associate deansall have counterparts back in
(05:50):
Fairfax. All of our staff havecounterparts back in Fairfax.
They communicate with them regularly.
We have a program to sendstaff from Mason Korea to the
US campuses and we alsoregularly have faculty
from the US campus comeand teach at Mason Korea.
(06:12):
And these features areunique to Mason Korea.
The other international campuses don'tnecessarily do all these things and I
think that's part of what helps usmaintain a close identity with the home
campus, which is very important to us.
Well you know,
you spoke of these other universitiesand so what is the impact on
(06:33):
our professors and their research andhaving faculty from different disciplines,
different institutions and quitefrankly different countries all
inhabit the same set of facilities?
I think we have cross-disciplinaryconversations both within the building and
among faculty from other universities,
(06:56):
from the other branchcampus universities here,
as well as cross-cultural conversations.
But I think it'd be great to turnthat over to Gyu Tag and ask him
how he's found any kinds of relationshipswith other faculty from some
of the other campuses.
Interestingly,
in one of the Korean conferencethat I presented--it was last year
(07:19):
I think--there was a alsoprofessor who taught at our
neighbor.
And I thought it was very interestingthat though we didn't have a kind of very
active relationship with thefaculty in other campus here at
IGC,
but still we could see how wefelt something kind of the very
(07:39):
similar thing,
kind of the very interestingexperience here where faculty from
different department,
different discipline and I mean evendifferent college working together at the
very same building gave us akind of opportunity to know
each other.
I mean not only betweendifferent university but even among ourselves in Mason
(08:02):
Korea that we may not geton very opportunity easily
in other campuses to knowthe professor or faculty
whose major is very different from us,
which gave us kind of the interestingopportunity to know what they are
doing and what kind of the uh,
(08:23):
research interest or academic field thatthey are in and how can we know each
other to understand each other better.
And also to know each otherbetter in very different field,
which has widened my informationand knowledge what is going
on in other fields of academia,
which is kind of very inspirationalso for me to know something
(08:45):
different from my uh, ownuh, academic background.
I'll just mention that one of the thingswe started to do over the last couple
years is have an annual researchshowcase with all four universities
and I think that's for studentsand faculty presenting their work.
And I think that's been one otheroccasion where faculty across the
(09:07):
universities here have beenable to get to know one another.
So Gyu Tag, as a George Mason alum,
you've actually experienced learningand teaching on both the Fairfax
campus and the Mason Koreacampus. So first of all,
I want you to talk a little bit aboutthe similarities and then I want you to
(09:27):
highlight your techniques forbalancing multiple different,
different and perhaps sometimesopposing cultural practices in
the two countries.
One of the similarity that I can findhere in Mason Korea and the Mason
Fairfax that I studiedlike 10 or more years ago,
the biggest similarity that Ifound is the way how we feel the
(09:51):
actual cultural diversity both here in
Mason Korea as well as, I meanthe thing that I felt in Fairfax,
the cultural diversity or other kindsof diversity that I found Fairfax,
which made me very surprising becauseI could not see this kinds of diversity
when I studied here in South Korea,
(10:11):
but when I came back toKorea and have worked here,
I could see how Mason could bringthis kinds of culture diversity
or other kinds of diversityto here Mason Korea in Songdo,
which made a big difference betweenlet's say Korean colleges going Korean
universities and American universities.
(10:31):
So I think this is the very bigopportunity for Mason Korea to introduce
or to let Korean studentsor even Korean society know,
to know how Americanuniversity, of course there,
there are many similaritiesbetween Korean,
South Korean and American university,
but how American university can showsome kind of different world to Korean
(10:53):
society as well as the Korean students.
I have been teachinga course called K-Pop:
Korean Popular Culture since 2014,
even till the very lastsemester, which is spring 2024.
And there are always student fromFairfax and student from Korea almost
(11:13):
half and half,
or sometimes more American student thanKorean student in that K-pop class.
Though I have been teaching some otherclasses also there are like American
student and Korean student and Icould see that although they are
studying at the very same classroomtogether, but I could see that there,
there is a kind of the barrierbetween them because they do
(11:36):
not know each other, not very well.
So I try to make them moremixed. For example, I give,
when I give a group work,
I try to make a intentionally like halfAmerican student with the half Korean
student in just one group.
Not only just the group discussion inthe classroom but also the group work or
other kind of group presentation.
(11:57):
And with this kinds of opportunity theycame to have a chance to know each other
and they come to understand each otherhow they are different as well as how
they are very similar as the verysame age, which is their early,
mostly early their twenties.
Also I gave kind of thetopic for them to discuss
(12:19):
or to compare what is the differenceor what is the similarity between US
and South Korea. For example,
when there was a COVID-19 and thereis a very similar thing happened both
in United States and South Korea,
but government as well as the student hada very different experience about this
COVID-19 in their own countries.
So when they talked about this COVID-19experience that they had in the United
(12:43):
States and South Korea,
they could get a chance to know whatis the difference between US and South
Korea, the cultural differences orother kinds of like political, economic,
cultural context differences as wellas the similarity between US and South
Korea, which made them to feelmore together as a Mason students.
Amazing. So it'sinteresting: DC, Maryland,
(13:09):
and Virginia,
if you look at that metropolitanarea where all three of
those entities kind of meet--we,
we affectionately call it theDMV--that area is home to the
third largest populationof Koreans in the US and
about half of those residents actuallyreside right here in Fairfax County.
(13:34):
So you know, and this, thisquestion's for both of you.
Talk a little bit about thebenefit of having a campus in Korea
connected to such a large Koreapopulation in and around George Mason
proper here in Fairfax.
I think one of the greatbenefits is that, as I mentioned,
our undergraduates spend a year,
(13:55):
usually their senior year on theFairfax campus and on the one
hand there's probably no better placeor certainly one of the best places to
experience America isin the capital city of
America. So they're getting aquintessential American experience.
At the same time, when I talkto them, I always reassure them,
(14:17):
don't worry, you're gonna havereally easy access to Korean culture,
to Korean foods. You can go to thelocal H Mart, plenty of Korean barbecue,
Korean chicken, Korean people.
So you'll have a little bit of thefeeling and taste of home as well.
And in fact, as I prepare to, toleave for the US from this position,
(14:41):
I also feel reassured that therewill still be those aspects
of Korean culture. And then I thinkit's also great for our US students,
they have Korean friends, they obviously,they know global Korean culture,
but they go to Koreatownsin Annandale or Centerville.
They also are surrounded by Koreanculture and are interested in it.
(15:04):
And then they say, Hey, I want more.
I'll spend a semester studying in Korea.
That's really cool.
I mean yes, uh, that's true.
So just like Robert mentioned since thereis a big Korean community in Fairfax
or DC or Maryland, uh,Washington DC Metropolitan area,
many Fairfax student comingto Mason Korea to study.
(15:25):
They already know muchabout Korean culture,
including like Korean pop culture,
which is very getting popularthese days as well as Korean food.
Or some of them alreadyknow some Korean words,
languages or some very like basicwords including or aannyeong-haseyo
or kamsahamnida. I I I,
I was very surprised when I firstlymet those like Fairfax student and
(15:49):
to see they already knowmuch about Korean culture,
but still they want to know more aboutit when they come to Mason Korea because
they can get more direct experiencevisiting some interesting places or
even going to K-Pop concert or goingto the other experiential learning with
professors or other student in ourMason Korea as one of the part of our
(16:12):
program,
which also give them moreopportunity to know even better
about Korean culture thatthey already knew some of it.
And I would just add some of themcome with much more Korean than that.
We had a student come from the NorthernVirginia area who pretty much taught
herself, while she was in highschool, Korean over by YouTube.
(16:34):
And in her first semester I thinkwon our international business
districts contest for the bestforeign speaker of Korean.
Outstanding.
Yeah, her accent is, for those ofus who struggle, is is remarkable.
Really good.
So the US State Department classifies
(16:55):
Korean as a category four language,
which means it's essentiallythe highest level.
They estimate that it willtake a native English speaker
88 weeks or 2200 classroom hours to
reach professional working proficiency.
(17:15):
This kind of dovetails directly intothe conversation, uh, Dean Matz,
you just brought forward and giventhe fact that I still believe that it,
I know it used to be the case,
but I still believe that George Masonoffers the only Korean language program
in Virginia, if I'm not mistaken.
How do you both compare MasonKorea and George Mason's
(17:39):
Korean language and culture?
How do you compare thosetwo in helping students gain
professional working proficiency?
When George Masonlanguage students come up,
they have a range of Koreancourses they can take here at
Mason Korea,
(17:59):
but they also get to practicetheir Korean in the community and
that certainly helps them.
Although because we're aninternational business district,
they actually have to work at it.There's a lot of English here.
They gotta be kind of bold and say, no,
I wanna talk to you in Korean becauseotherwise people will speak with them in
English.
(18:20):
The other way they get that proficiencyoutside the class is we have an
internship program for studentsto work in jobs where they
have to use Korean. So for example,
some of these are office positionswithin Mason Korea where translation is
required and so they will dosome of the translation for us.
(18:41):
So Robert, you've beenlearning Korean as well, if,
if our conversations yield anything,
so what is it like to be backin the classroom as a student
and as a professor?
I really loved it.
I became a professor because I lovedbeing a student and that love never
really goes away.
We talk about the commitment tolifelong learning at Mason and
(19:05):
I really believe in it.
One of the things when I am givingadvice to students at a convocation
speech or something, I I tellthem to try and learn everything.
Don't think of somethings as requirements.
You just never know where you'lluse something you learned.
And also that just learninghow to learn is a great thing.
(19:26):
So I surprise myself whenI'm in the Korean classroom.
I feel like I'm a 21-year-oldstudent again. Uh,
although I don't think I have theplastic brain of a 21-year-old. But, uh,
but I very much enjoy it.
Okay, so spill the beans (19:40):
what,
what are we talking aboutgrade wise? How did you do?
I got a C plus.
Really?
Really?
Wow.
Yeah. Um.
It must have been, it musthave been a pretty hard course.
Uh, I understand that Koreanis a category four language.
(20:01):
And it was,
and I am gonna retake it when I comeback to the US I will retake that
course, but you know, I enjoy it.
Do you feel that you are proficientenough to get around the community
and you know,
and get yourself out of an emergencysituation if you had to utilize basic
(20:24):
services and the like?
I definitely feel more competent in Korean
than even a couple of years ago.So things are a little easier.
I understand signs a little better.
I can usually explain to peoplewhat I want in a very basic
(20:44):
Korean, uh, so it helps.
But really I'm learning Korean becauseI love the culture, I love language.
So that's really what pulls me to it.
So this.
If, if my life depended onit, I might be in trouble.
you'd be surprised how much you knew.
So according to the ModernLanguage Association latest census:
(21:10):
enrollment in courses otherthan English dropped by
16.6% overall between 2016
and 2020.
One of the very fewexceptions to this is Korean,
where enrollments grew by 38.3%
(21:30):
from 2016 to 2021.
And that now puts Koreain the top 10 relative to
language enrollment.
Some of this growth is attributedto the growth and a popularity
of Korean pop music or K-popamong American students.
(21:51):
So Gyu Tag, as a K-pop expert,
what do you see as the appeal ofK-pop music among American students?
As I've been teaching K-pop relatedcourses for several years and
there have been many like US studentstaking that course, we had um,
many opportunity to discuss what makesthem to fall in love with K-pop because
(22:15):
most of them decided to cometo Mason Korea to study because
they were already K-pop fans. So, uh,
I could see based on their own opinionas well as like my own analysis,
I could see that there aretwo strengths for K-pop to
be popularized among US studentas well as like global audience.
(22:39):
One is the thing which can beconsidered as the hybrid, uh,
character of K-pop,
which means that K-pop isvery kind of global pop music,
but still it is very local,
which means that K-pop has some kindof like general or universal characters
that could appeal towider global audience,
(22:59):
but still it is different from let'ssay American pop music or other kinds of
global pop music because still it'svery Korean or still it is very local.
So when we listen to K-pop music,
I believe all of you havelistened at least one K-pop song,
maybe Gangnam Style or others.
But you could see that it is notvery Korean traditional or ethnic
(23:21):
music that you might expectbefore listening to K-pop actually
it. Which means that it is actuallya part of global pop music,
which is not a veryethnic traditional one.
But it does not meanthat it is only the very,
let's say copycat or imitation ofAmerican pop music because it has strong
Korean characters including Koreanlyrics or some kind of very melody
(23:45):
lines, very Korean type or theway how it is represented by their
musician.
Usually call this K-pop idols withtheir like choreography with the way
how they perform on the stage or withthe way how they show their own style in
visual or audio image,
which makes it a bit differentfrom American pop music or other kinds of global
(24:08):
pop music.
So it is very similar quite but notexactly the same with the American pop
music, which could appeal to USaudience as well as global audience.
And the other thing that I can findis that K-pop is something like very
fan made participatory culture or music,
which means that it was not madeby industry only or it was not
(24:32):
made by government plan,
but made by fans activechoice that some of them found
K-pop on YouTube or other kinds ofsocial media as a way of like watching
music video or other kinds of parodyvideo. And they found it very interesting.
Then it became very viralwith all those audiences who
(24:54):
accidentally found K-pop very interesting.
So it think kind of the wordof mouth became kind of very
stronger mostly by fans power to become a
global phenomenon that also couldattract US student coming to our campus
to study to and to know moreabout K-pop but also the other
(25:16):
Korean culture,
which means that K-pop is nowbecoming a kind of gateway for them to
introduce other Korean cultureincluding language history, food,
et cetera.
How, how would you classify the music?
Like if you were to take the US equivalent
in say K-pop is likeblank music in America,
(25:41):
how would you define it?
I think that K-pop is very similarin some respect kind of--there's
a very big similarity betweenK-pop and I should say Latin pop.
I mean it is very local kind of thing.
When you listen to Latin pop sound,
you could see wow it is very Latin withthis lyrics with the musical style,
(26:03):
but it does not mean that it cannot bea part of US music. So K-pop is very,
that kind of music. It isvery local Korean pop music,
but still it is not verydifferent from American things.
So if I say in one word,
blah blah music and I could seethat K-pop is very hybridized,
global pop music that could appeal toUSA audience as well as global audience.
(26:27):
You know, it's interesting but I see it,
it has some elements of Koreanculture as you highlighted,
but if you really, you know,
kind of close your eyes anddon't think about the words,
the rhythm, the beat, it's pop music.
Yes, that's true.
(26:47):
And one thing I would like to alsofocus is that K-pop has been very
much influenced by AfricanAmerican music such as R&B,
hip-hop or soul music.
So one of our George Mason faculty,
Crystal Anderson actuallywrote a book about how K-pop
has been very influenced byAfrican American pop music.
(27:10):
The book title that shewrote was Soul in Seoul.
I think it was always very interestingbecause when we listen to K-pop,
just like you mentioned Dr. Washington,
it is very pop music but especiallyI can see big influence of African
American music styles such asR&B, hip-hop or soul in K-pop,
which is very interesting then,
which makes us to see how K-pop hasbeen a kind of the playground for Korean
(27:34):
or other global audienceto see local American
and other kinds of global popmusic all blended together.
Yeah, I mean you, you're absolutely right.People don't realize that, you know,
American pop music has strongconnection as it roots to
soul and and R&B music as well.
(27:55):
So all of those pieces are kindof coming together in a very
unique way in K-pop. While I was there,
I was there not too long agoas you know, I think it was uh,
about a week now I've beenback. But while I was there,
something unique was goingon in pop music there
(28:16):
in Korea that we don't experiencehere in the US and that is
that a number of itsmale pop stars, you know,
had to go off and serve in amilitary and had compulsory uh,
military service.
And I think K-pop starJin completed his military
service and was actuallyjust completed it last week
(28:40):
or about that time and was actuallygetting reintegrated back into the music.
Is that a phenomenon that you're seeing?
It actually shows the characteristicsof K-pop as being local,
which means that all those (28:52):
Yes, just like you mentioned, Dr. Washington,
all Korean males whoare in their 20 have to
join the military serviceas a mandatory service.
And even the very famousglobal pop star cannot be an
exception. So I could seehow they are very Korean,
(29:13):
which means that it isvery Korean culture,
though the music or other kind ofthing is very global or American
influence or global influence pop music.
So it cannot be fully separatedfrom Korean cultural or social
context.
So Robert,
you've often said that it'simportant to distinguish between
(29:35):
globalization as Americanization and
globalization in its ideal form, right?
You see it as a two-way exchangeand learning experience.
How does Mason Korea embodythe globalization ideal of a
two-way street?
(29:56):
Oh, I think it really does. Andwe've been talking about that.
The students who come fromthe US, on the one hand,
part of the reason they're coming isbecause of the outflow of Korean culture
worldwide as part of the processesof globalization including to the US.
And so when they come they are even more
(30:18):
wanting to learn about Korean life,
Korean culture, and they seeaspects of the Korean state,
how Koreans govern themselves. Thatis a learning experience for them.
I think a really importantlearning experience.
And that's part of being global Mason,that they are seeing this other world.
(30:39):
At the same time,
our Korean or other internationalstudents are learning about the US through
some of the ways we teach, throughthe content of what we teach.
So it really is a two-way street.
And I remember theinternational business district,
the International Free EconomicZone rather signed an MOU with
(31:00):
all of the IGC universities,
the ancient global campus universitiesand some other organizations within
Incheon clearing the, IFEZas a multilingual city,
a dual language city, English and Korean.
And within Incheon, thebroader area that the,
if a district is located, therewas some concern about this,
(31:23):
there was maybe a worry that people wouldhave to learn English or that things
would become Americanized.
And one of the things Ireally believe is that as IFEZ
and Songdo,
Incheon opens itself up more to
uh, the US to our USstudents coming over here,
(31:44):
they're coming over really wanting tolearn Korean. One of the great things, uh,
I think one of the really,
going back to what it's like beinga student in Korean classes here,
of course I'm not with the Korean studentswho don't need to take these classes.
I'm with the US students who come overand it's just wonderful seeing their
passion to learn Korean.
(32:06):
And quite remarkable too becauseyou know, Korean is spoken by,
there are 51 millionKorean citizens roughly.
It's not a worldwide languagein the way say Chinese is
or Russian,
but here are all these students from theUS who are really sitting down trying
(32:26):
to learn this quite difficult language.
And I think that's partof the two way street.
Understood, understood.
So I think this connectsdirectly to the IGC or
the Incheon global campus,
'cause one of the goals of the IGC isto nurture the next generation of global
leaders in education, economics,industry, culture and the arts.
(32:51):
So how do you feel that Mason's presencein South Korea contributes to this
goal?
I think in a couple ways. First,there's knowledge exchange as we,
uh,
seek to leverage US expertiseboth here and from the
US campuses in the service ofKorean industry and government.
(33:12):
But I think even more profoundly,
we're doing it through our educationalprograms and we are really helping to
create students who are global leaders,
who are multilingual and multicultural.
They have multiculturalcompetencies and that's,
as Korea again continues towant to be very international.
(33:34):
They want students trainedwho can move across cultures.
And that's one of the thingswe're doing here. And I,
and I've talked about the passionof our US students to learn Korean,
but I'm also just in awe everyday of our Korean students
who are doing a full college curriculumin their second language and doing it
(33:57):
very well.
So, you know, this isinteresting you know,
we always talk about how thesecultures intermix and we talk about the
popularity of K-pop on aglobal scale, but Gyu Tag,
how is it actually perceived in Korea
(34:18):
and how does that connectto this whole goal of
Mason contributing to culture and the arts
as, as expressed, uh, by the IGC.
When firstly K-pop became internationally
known or internationally popular?
(34:39):
It was firstly in East Asia inlate 1990 or early 2000 then
outside East Asia since the early2010, especially the big hit,
after the big hit of GangnamStyle. Interestingly,
not many Korean people actuallybelieved that Korean culture,
including K-pop and other kindsof Korean culture or Korea itself,
(35:01):
could be recognized by, internationally,
by people living outside East Asia.
It was very first time forKorea to be actually a part of
the big global, although ithas been a part of big global,
but still South Korean peoplethemselves did not really feel
(35:22):
that they are actually thepart of big global world.
But when K-pop has becomepopular in United States,
in Latin America or in Europeor other parts of the world,
Korean people can seehow Korean culture can
appeal to the wider global audience andhow Korean as a country including their
(35:43):
language,
their history and other thingscan be the very thing that
could draw attention fromthe international or other
like other countries oroutside Korea itself.
And Mason Korea can be some kindof the very example how Korea
could accept the culture or the system
(36:06):
which is not their own,
but try to learn somethingfrom the American university,
American education system,
or other kind of American cultureand to blend or to hybridize with
this local context to make somethingnew or create something new,
which has both characteristics, whichis the very advantage of American thing,
(36:27):
the advantage of Korean thing thatcould be very creative advantage that
had not existed before.
So K-pop and Mason Korea has a verysimilar character that they can
create something based on twodifferent culture but making something
similar but still very differentthing that has not been expected by
(36:50):
anyone.
You know,
it's changing and it's expandingand scaling way beyond K-pop. Right?
When I was in Korea and we were talkingto Korean leadership there they not
only talked about K-pop, butthey also talked about K-food,
they also talked about K-culture. Right?
(37:11):
And so you're seeing thisexpansion and scaling of all things
Korea into the global diaspora.What, what are your thoughts on that?
I think it was very interesting,just like I mentioned a bit earlier,
of course it was K-pop first,
but when global audienceincluding like American audience
(37:32):
came to know about K-pop andcame to fall in love with K-pop,
then many of them try tofind some other Korean thing,
which means that K-pop is only the verygateway for them to know more about
Korean culture.
Just like you mentioned Dr. Washingtonsuch as Korean food or other Korean
history as other Korean culture. Forexample, Netflix series, Squid Game,
(37:54):
which is kind of this series globallypopular like a couple of years ago
was a very interesting, uh,opportunity for global audience.
Not only to know about Korean TV series,
but also to know more about Koreanculture that was described in the
series such as Korean traditional games,
(38:15):
even other kinds of everydayfood that was not introduced to
international audience.
But now they come to know more aboutKorean culture by those things.
And when even they cometo have interest in Korea,
then they also try tovisit Korea to see what
is actually going on. Notonly about tasting the food,
(38:37):
the actual ethnic Korean food in Korea,
but also to know more about Koreanculture, Korean history, Korean language.
So I think it is veryinteresting thing that K-pop
or other kinds of Koreanpop culture is showing the
very diversity of Korean culture or theother attractiveness of Korean culture
(38:59):
that is also working well oninternational audience that makes also
South Korea as a part of theglobal world that was not
expected by Korean themselves.
I would just add that when students come,
they can enjoy the food that they'vegotten a version of back in the US.
They also experience things thatyou can't experience on Netflix
(39:24):
or at your local Koreanrestaurant. For example,
the way space is organized in Korea,
because Korea is a small countryrelative to its population,
there's much more public space.
There aren't many private yards theway we have in the US but there are
beautiful parks. And Koreais also a very safe country.
(39:46):
Parks do not close at sunsetas often parks in the US do,
but rather they light up at nightand there's this wonderful kind of
festive feeling.
It's a real experience that you canonly get by being here or some parts,
but you can only get by being here.
Well Robert, as we start to wrap up here,
(40:09):
what have you learned from yourtime as campus dean that you
hope to bring back to the Fairfax campus?
I would say, first of all,
I've also brought a lot thatI learned in Fairfax to Korea.
I very much value the time that I,
I worked in the US but Ithink what I learned here even
(40:29):
more is the need to takerisks and keep going.
We're small and we have togrow and we, it's very complex.
Sometimes you just gotta say, yeah,
we're gonna try that and if it doesn'twork exactly right the first time,
we'll figure it out on the secondpass because you gotta be nimble
(40:51):
here. And so I,
I think I've gotten even a little moreconfidence to just go ahead and do stuff.
Outstanding. Outstanding. So Gyu Tag,
what could the United Stateslearn from South Korea
regarding educationalpolicy, culture and music?
(41:13):
I mean, first of all,
if there is something that US couldlearn from Mason Korea and Korean
education or Korean society,
it could be something like--ofcourse I know that America is a
country of cultural diversityand just like I mentioned,
is this the very strength that MasonKorea has provided to Korean student
(41:36):
who did not have much experienceabout this kind of cultural diversity.
But still, I could see when US campus,
our Mason actually openedtheir campus here in Songdo,
there are a lot of thingsthat US university,
even the university with diversity,
Mason did not know muchabout Korea itself.
(41:57):
Although there are many Koreans orKorean Americans who have studied Mason,
including myself, who wasan alum of the George Mason.
So it could be a greatopportunity for US or US
education to know aboutwhat is the actual diversity
that could be a part of USeducation system that they could
(42:20):
learn here from local Koreancontext and how could they
embrace all kinds of Korean students orother kinds of international students to
make them as one altogether.
So I think it will be a greatexperience for US university to make
these kinds of altogether universityoutside US setting and the
(42:43):
music.
I mean it is very interesting thatthese days when I see the newly
debuted K-pop band,there are some musicians,
members of the newly debutedK-pop band who is not Korean,
who is not East Asian,but even like US people,
including with the very diverse ethnicbackgrounds including African American,
(43:05):
Hispanic, East Asian, or Indian American,et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
So I think it is very interestingthat although K-pop began as a Korean
music with all Korean musicians,
now it's actually getting really globalwith people with diverse backgrounds.
So K-pop can be actual real
(43:25):
global music with all kinds of diversity,
still maintaining some kindof Korean cultural aspect,
which could be the veryfuture of K-pop thing,
or which could be the thingthat can show how the actual
globalization can beachieved to other country,
including United States.
So Robert, as we start topull all of this together,
(43:48):
right now we have an increasing numberof American universities who are
partnering with Korean campuses,
an increasing numbers of American studentswho are now studying abroad in Korea.
So how is the US higher education system
influencing South Korea'shigher education system and what
(44:10):
do you think is the path forward?
So that was one of the reasonsthat Mason Korea and the other
IGC universities wereestablished to provide a model,
a different kind of model foreducation. So part of it is,
you know,
the way that we educate more dialogic and
(44:33):
more participatory thanKorean universities.
But the other part is along thelines that Gyu Tag was talking
about, that we really emphasize diversity.
And that's something that Korea isvery much grappling with right now,
just as we are in a different wayin the US trying to imagine what a
(44:53):
multicultural Korea looks like and howto integrate immigrants into Korean
society. And I think in the end,
even more than pedagogy,
when the Korean governmentlike the Korean,
the Incheon, educationdepartment looks to us,
they're interested in what we sayabout pedagogy, but they're really,
(45:16):
I think even more interested inhow to create a multicultural
society.
So that I think is one ofthe values or characteristics
that we are bringing to Koreathat Koreans are looking at. Well,
I was just gonna say also,
when I think about what we have to learnfrom the Korean educational system,
(45:38):
Korea is a great place to be a professor.
The value of educationin Korea is really high.
I think they have the highest orone of the highest percentages of
college educated population in the world.
And to be a professor in Koreais to be really respected and
learning is really respected. You know,I think that that's a model for us.
(46:02):
Outstanding. Outstanding.
So where do you hope to seeMason Korea in 10 years?
I'm gonna ask it from you and I'mgonna ask it of Gyu Tag as we wrap up.
I hope in 10 years that wewill go from a thousand to 2000
students also,
that we will increase the number ofstudents from the US doing study abroad
(46:26):
here. Of course, increasing that numberof students means some new programs.
And I think academic programs,
I think we especially want to add someacademic programs that relate very well
to some of the target industriesin Incheon, for example,
in the biosciences andin information sciences.
And also there for expanding ourrelationships with Incheon and Korean
(46:50):
industry and organizations.
And I hope that we continue to have thisclose relationship between Mason Korea
campus and the US campus,
including faculty continuing tocome over from the US campus.
And I hope when I retire,
whoever is running the show here willhave me aboard to teach them English
(47:10):
courses.
Yes. In 10 years,
I mean actually Robert mentioned thatMason Korea has worked something like
liberal arts colleges and I reallylike that characteristics. But still,
I also hope that in 10 yearsthere will be more graduate school
(47:32):
here in Mason Korea because graduateschool is always very necessary for
more researchers, creative researchers.
Of course we have doing ourresearches with our best effort,
but graduate school couldbe the thing that we also
can make our Mason Korea not onlyas a, I mean very academic college,
(47:53):
but also as a research institute.
And the other thing I would like to sayabout Mason Korea in 10 years is that
Mason Korea could be thehub for study of East Asia
and East Asian culture and society,even politics and other economy as well.
Because South Korea is agreat geographical location between China and Japan.
(48:13):
But what also we can see EastAsia and all part of Asia,
the very broad uh, perspective,
which could be our advantage tomake Mason Korea as a part of
like study hub of like East Asian studies.
So I hope that in 10 years,
Mason Korea could work as a kindof hub for East Asian studies
(48:37):
as well.
Well this is outstanding, outstanding.
I hope both outcomes come to fruition.
Well, that's about all the time we have.
I want to thank you both forjoining me and thank you Robert
for your five years of dedicatedservice to Mason Korea.
Been a pleasure.
(48:57):
And cheers to both of you for10 groundbreaking years of Mason
Korea and we hope to see manymore in the years to come.
So I am Mason PresidentGregory Washington.
Thank you all for listening and tunein next time for more conversations
that show why we areall together different.
(49:22):
If you like what youheard on this podcast,
go to podcast.gmu.edu formore of Gregory Washington's
conversations with thethought leaders, experts,
and educators who take on the grandchallenges facing our students, graduates,
and higher education.That's podcast.gmu.edu.
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