November 10, 2023 • 42 mins
Melissa Perry, dean of George Mason University’s College of Public Health, is an ardent proponent of virtual reality and AI as tools to help solve the nation’s health challenges. But, as she tells Mason President Gregory Washington, a technology overload has also helped create an “epidemic of loneliness” that has heightened the importance of a shared humanity and “being present for each other.” Perry also discusses her suicide attempt as a teenager that ultimately inspired her career in public health.
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Narrator (00:04):
Trailblazers in research innovators in technology,
and those who simply have a goodstory. All make up the fabric
that is George Mason University,
where taking on the grand challenges thatface our students graduates and higher
education is our mission and our passion.Hosted by Mason President Gregory
Washington, this is theAccess to Excellence podcast.
(00:27):
This podcast includes adiscussion about suicide.
If you or someone you know is experiencingsuicidal thoughts or a crisis,
please reach out immediately to theSuicide and Crisis Lifeline by calling or
texting 988.
You can also contact the crisistext line at 741-741.
These services are free and confidential.
Gregory Washington (00:49):
Melissa Perry grew up in rural Vermont about six miles
from the Canadian border.
As she prepared to attend theUniversity of Vermont in Burlington,
she fretted about driving inthe city because, as she said,
it would be too scary and too complicated.
But there is nothing timidabout what Dr. Perry,
(01:11):
the dean of George Mason University'sCollege of Public Health,
the first college of public health inVirginia, has accomplished in her career.
Dr. Perry is the immediate pastco-chair of the National Academies of
Sciences, Engineering and MedicineCommittee on Emerging Science.
And she is an ardent proponentof virtual reality as a
(01:35):
tool to help solve what she callsVirginia's triple health crisis:
A dramatic rise in opioid overdoses,
the growing demand formental health services,
and the declining supplyof qualified healthcare
practitioners. She also hasa famous relative singer,
(01:56):
Katie Perry, which we'll talk about.Dr. Perry, welcome to the show.
Melissa Perry (02:00):
Dr. Washington. I couldn't be more excited to be here. Thanks so much.
Gregory Washington (02:03):
Let's just get things started here. I'm curious what it was like for you,
coming from a small townin Highgate, Vermont.
Is it true that you were one of onlytwo students in your graduating class to
go on to college?
Melissa Perry (02:17):
It is true, in fact. So I went to Missisquoi Valley Union High School,
so it was a union school that hadseveral different feeder towns,
and I was coming from Highgate, Vermont,
and the students from my town,
there was a handful ofabout 30 or so students,
and only two of us endedup going to college.
(02:37):
So of our 400-studentgraduating class, two from
Highgate, Vermont went to college.
Gregory Washington (02:44):
So what did the other students do?
Melissa Perry (02:46):
Well, in Highgate, it's a really small town, as you mentioned,
just six miles south of the Canadianborder. Not a lot of industry,
not a lot of opportunity to beupwardly mobile, economically mobile.
So folks would sometimes farm.
They sometimes would work inlocal stores or gas stations.
Sometimes they would go into logging,oftentimes into construction.
(03:09):
But they oftentimes stayed close to homeand really didn't venture far out of
our town of Highgate in our countyof Franklin County, Vermont.
Gregory Washington (03:19):
So you go to the University of Vermont.
How did your time there change yourworldview and maybe even guide your career
choices? How did that happen?
Melissa Perry (03:27):
Going to university had a huge impact on me during high school.
I had a really troubled time,
and it was quite unlikelythat I would go to college.
A lot of folks didn't believe thatI was gonna be able to make it.
And when I finally arrivedat the University of Vermont,
if you can imagine this, it was the firsttime that I ever had health insurance.
(03:47):
So prior to that, growing up in Vermont,
our health insurance policy wasessentially don't get sick.
So I arrive on campus and itwas very overwhelming because
being from a tiny town, I hadn't hada lot of metropolitan experiences.
I hadn't really ventured far outof my town, whereas Burlington,
(04:08):
Vermont really felt like a metropolis.
And there were so many students comingfrom other states who had a lot more
resources and a lot more travel,
and a lot exposure to a lot of partsof the world that I'd had never seen
myself. And in fact,
there was a disparaging term forpeople coming directly from Vermont.
They were referred to as woodchucks.
(04:30):
And so I was seen as a woodchuckmy first year in college.
Ultimately, I was able to overcome thatfeeling of inhibition and embarrassment,
but really showing up forthe first time in Burlington,
Vermont on that campus was,
in the beginning very intimidatingand very overwhelming,
but ultimately it became, educationbecame so affirming for me.
(04:52):
I understood once that door opened,I just wanted to keep going.
Gregory Washington (04:56):
That is the liberating power of education, isn't it?
Melissa Perry (04:59):
Absolutely. Absolutely. That's my story.
Gregory Washington (05:02):
So tell me a little bit about your relationship to Katy Perry.
Melissa Perry (05:06):
So Katy Perry, my father left our family when I was really young.
It was like two yearsold when he first left.
And he was essentiallyestranged from our family.
It was my brother and mother and me,
and I didn't have a lot ofconnections with him over the years.
Later on I came to learnthat he had a half-sister,
(05:27):
so his father remarriedand had a daughter,
and that daughter was Christine.And Christine is Katie's mom.
So in fact, Katie and I sharethe same paternal grandfather,
and that makes us first half cousins.
Gregory Washington (05:42):
First half cousins.
Melissa Perry (05:44):
That's right, that's right.
Gregory Washington (05:45):
You know where I'm from. We just say, first cousin.
Melissa Perry (05:50):
We share the same grandfather.
Gregory Washington (05:53):
No, understood, understood.
So let's talk a little bit about youbeing dean of the first college of
public health in Virginia. You workedat public health colleges before,
and I think when we gotconnected to you, you were at GW.
But I know you've spent some time atJohn Hopkins, at Harvard, and at GW.
Talk to us a little bit about why is adistinction of being a college of public
(06:16):
health so important?
Melissa Perry (06:18):
Absolutely. Yes. I think altogether,
I've been at schools and colleges ofpublic health for almost 35 years.
And in fact right now thereare over 30,000 students in the
country that are gettingdegrees in schools, colleges,
and programs of public health. They arestudying at the undergraduate level,
(06:40):
at the master's level, at the doctorallevel. They are studying epidemiology,
they're studying health services,
they're studying socialdeterminants of health.
They're studying environmentalhealth, infectious diseases.
And here at our college,
we also have components of public healththat include nursing and also social
(07:00):
work.
So suffice it to say a college orschool of public health makes sure that
we have the opportunity to trainin very focused ways to prepare
a whole myriad of public health expertsthat can respond to the pressing needs
of our country.
Gregory Washington (07:17):
So what is your vision for the college?
Where do you want to take it andwhat kind of impact can it have?
Melissa Perry (07:22):
There is no doubt in my mind that this college can have a tremendous impact.
Being the first college in thecommonwealth has been an ultimate honor,
privilege,
and important opportunity thatwe are pushing forward to be a
leader in providing training,
structured training and opportunitiesfor folks in the commonwealth and beyond
(07:44):
that want to sign up for beingpart of a public health change
in our region, in our state, inour nation, and in our world.
I'm really excited about beingable to convene leaders expertise
and also push forward and generatenew knowledge in areas of research.
I'm also super excited about how inclusiveexcellence across this university
(08:09):
resonates so powerfully withour College of Public Health.
The vast majority of our students,of our faculty, of our staff,
they really care in making sure thatwe ensure health is a human right.
And we ensure that everyone hasaccess to health and wellbeing
regardless of where you are in society,regardless of what Zip code you live in.
(08:30):
And I strongly believe that our Collegeof Public Health is doing this and will
continue to push forward withthose values and with that mission.
Gregory Washington (08:39):
I love it. Healthcare as a right, and everybody deserves access. You know,
that's so important in thisday and time. You know,
I don't have time to go through all ofthe programs in the college, but one
that
personifies exactly what you'vejust highlighted there is our
Mason and Partners, or MAP clinics,
(08:59):
and they provide healthcare to reallyvulnerable populations in the community.
So talk to me about how thatprogram fits into the broader
college goals that you have.
Melissa Perry (09:11):
Yes. I have to share the story with you, Dr. Washington.
When I was interviewing for this position,
and I first learned aboutMason and Partner clinics, I almost didn't believe it.
What I came to understand was somethingthat hearkened back to a period in my
training in the early ninetieswhere there was active interest in
(09:31):
people going into health, going intomedicine, going into public health,
going into nursing,
really invested in respondingto underserved communities,
marginalized communities,
and making sure that everyonehad access to healthcare. And so,
so many of those clinicshave somehow disappeared,
whereas George Mason has made surethat the Mason and Partner clinics
(09:54):
are alive and well,
thanks to a lot of hard work on the partof our incredible nurse leaders and our
nurse, nursing students, andmaking sure that everyone,
those folks that are the mostinvisible, the most marginalized,
the most hard to reach,
are getting access in Fairfax andalso in Prince William County.
We're super proud of the MAP clinics,
(10:15):
and we wanna continue to advance and alsoensure that they're as well integrated
across the college as possible andalso presenting great opportunities for
our students across the university.
Gregory Washington (10:27):
It is a fantastic program,
and it really does personify the campus.
So what other research programs are atthe College of Public Health that have
you excited?
Melissa Perry (10:39):
We are having a great time in advancing our council on education and public
health accreditation.This is a big deal for us.
Launching this college hasmeant the support from Mason,
the support of the commonwealth,the support of the community.
And so now we're hard at work puttingtogether our self-study so that the entire
(10:59):
college will be accredited.
We're really enjoying theopportunity to integrate nursing.
We're very proud of our school of nursing,
ensuring that nurses are learning frompublic health leaders and epidemiologists
and health service experts arealso learning from nursing.
And then also social work.
What a point of pride to have a departmentof social work within a college of
(11:21):
public health. And we hear that fromstudents and from faculty saying,
this is unique, this istruly interdisciplinary,
and this is exactly what we're lookingfor for innovation in health services,
provision of healthcare, andalso in prevention of disease.
Gregory Washington (11:36):
Outstanding. Outstanding.
So let's talk a little bit aboutyour personal connection to
public health. How didyou get into the field?
Melissa Perry (11:46):
I really appreciate the question, Dr. Washington. And actually,
this goes way back, it goesway back to when I was
young and growing up in rural Vermont.
And in fact, that tiny townhad very few, as I mentioned,
economic opportunities.There was a lot of strife,
a lot of mental emotionalstrife. There was unemployment.
(12:07):
There were many a single parent families.
There was quite a bit of alcohol abuse,
tons of tobacco use and other drugs.
And at a point when I wasquite young, right around 14,
it was a very lonely time in mylife. I was a lonely adolescent.
My mom was working nightand day at this, actually,
(12:29):
it was a local watering hole.It was essentially a snack bar,
but it was really a bar. That's howwe're able to make some money by selling,
uh, beer and wine. And shewas working night and day.
So I didn't have the supportivefamily of community of friends.
I really didn't have anyone.
And I reached a point ofdespair and I was at home alone
(12:51):
and felt as though nothing would change,
really had hit rock bottom insadness and loneliness and despair.
And so I found a bunch of pills.I didn't know what they were.
I just knew at that momentthat I didn't wanna continue.
I didn't wanna continueliving with this kind of pain.
And so I took a bunch of pills. Ididn't know what they were at the time.
(13:13):
I just swallowed, um, Idon't know, 50 or so pills.
And I guess through tremendousgrace, my brother found me.
He came home and he foundme. He called the ambulance.
And the next thing I remember,
I woke up in the intensive careunit in Burlington, Vermont.
I had tubes everywhere, hadno idea how they got there
(13:36):
and woke up to realize that three dayshad passed and I had been in a coma.
I was absolutely terrified by what Ihad just done. I couldn't believe it.
It was unfathomable what I hadjust attempted. At that moment
I knew I didn't wanna die.I knew I wanted to live.
And it was through thesupport of a lot of folks,
(13:58):
the friends that I didn't know I had,I didn't feel like I had. Teachers,
mental health workers,guidance counselors,
all of these people reached out tome and said to me, you really matter.
We don't want to lose you.And I would say, looking back,
that that was a transformative moment.
That was the moment where I decided Ireally wanted to make a difference in the
(14:21):
world. I wanted to addressmental health crises.
I wanted to address pain and suffering,and I wanted to get busy living.
And I just wanted to tellyou, Dr. Washington, that, um,
this is the first time that I'veactually shared this story publicly.
And I did it for two reasons.
One is that I really respectyou and I really trust you,
(14:42):
and I know how you and all ofour people at George Mason really
care about mental health,mental health crises,
people that may be experiencingsuicidality or suicidal
ideation. So I knew this wasa safe place to talk about it.
And then secondly, I hopethat by sharing this message,
(15:04):
if even one person hears this andfeels as though this resonates with
you, you have to know thatthere is another side.
That it's common tobelieve that there's not.
But you can get through whateveryou're dealing with and push through.
And there is support to get youthrough. And I guess my story is,
(15:24):
is an example of that.
Gregory Washington (15:26):
Well, first and foremost, I, I'm humbled. I wanna say thank you for sharing.
You never know what people are dealingwith and what individuals who might be
listening to thispodcast are dealing with.
So I am grateful foryou sharing your story,
that the story could havean impact on someone else.
The reality is you have achievedtremendous heights since
(15:47):
that time. You know, andlook at where you are today.
That's really kind of a message.It's a message of triumph,
but it's also a message for people whomay be in a point of despair right now.
These things can turn around.
You can end up at a greatpoint in life. And also,
I would say to those ofyou out here listening,
if you or someone you know isexperiencing suicidal thoughts or
(16:12):
crisis,
please reach out immediatelyto our suicide and crisis
lifeline by calling or texting 988.
You can also contactthe crisis text line at
741-741.
These services are allfree and confidential.
(16:32):
So with that as a backdrop ofwhat you just highlighted to us,
what were your thoughts when youread the report by the Center's, uh,
for Disease Control? That said,
nearly 57% of teen girls in the US
felt persistently sad or hopeless.
Double that of boys, and30% of teen girls seriously
(16:55):
considered suicide.
Melissa Perry (16:56):
It was incredibly distressing. My first reaction was distress.
The second reaction was, Iidentify, the third reaction was,
I really need to talk about my ownexperience as a way of reaching out,
as a way of affirming what it'slike to be in that space. As a,
as adolescent girl feeling hopeless.
I'm really concerned as an epidemiologistand as a public health leader,
(17:20):
that we have seen such atremendous increase in the sense
of loneliness anddespair and hopelessness.
I feel strongly that despite the many,
many advances that we'veexperienced with technology,
we're also experiencing aepidemic of loneliness
in a very paradoxical way.
(17:41):
I anchor back to justabout 16 years ago, 2007,
when the smartphone arrived.And before you know it,
we all had this small glassrectangle in our hands.
And by its very nature, westart to tune others out.
There's an important quotethat I've used before,
(18:02):
and that is behind any type ofmachine, whether or not it's a gun,
a car, or a computer,
we are at risk of losinga piece of our humanity.
And so as we find ourselvescommuning at the screen,
I think we're disconnectinginadvertently, unconsciously,
unintentionally from each other.
And so to have such a massive numberof teen girls throughout the US
(18:26):
experiencing, uh,
loneliness and despair tells methat it's critically important
to rally support, toturn toward each other,
to continuously recognize howmuch our teens need us as adults,
as community members, as friends,as leaders, as parents, as teachers,
(18:47):
as educators,
and really recognize the criticalimportance of shared humanity and being
present for each other.
Gregory Washington (18:55):
Look, you, you, I don't know
if you meant for this to be a class,
but you're indeed teaching today.You know, a year or so ago,
we did a podcast with Robyn Mehlenbeck,and I don't know if you know, uh, Robyn.
Melissa Perry (19:08):
Yes. I've interacted with Robin for sure.
I really admire herleadership at the university.
Gregory Washington (19:12):
Yeah. So she heads our Center for Psychological Services,
and one of the things she said, itstuck with me, and it was, she said,
A mental health crisis on the heelsof Covid would actually be the
country's second pandemic.What do you think about that?
And is this all tied together?
Melissa Perry (19:31):
I think that's a very powerful,
very insightful statement. I wanted toshare with you. I thought you'd enjoy
hearing that yesterday,
I was over in Arlington at theCarter School and we had this great
symposium on the many contributionsthat Jimmy and Rosalynn
Carter have made to theworld.
And so I convened a fireside chatwith a colleague of mine, Eliot Sorel,
(19:55):
who's a very well-known public mentalhealth, global health psychiatrist.
And we talked about the way in whichthe Carters were grappling with mental
health issues in the 1980s.What were the issues then?
It was partly ensuring that peoplewere coming out of mental hospitals.
It was distigmatizingmental health issues.
(20:18):
It was funding research so we couldbetter understand how common these issues
were. So we had a very robustconversation. So that's the 1980s.
And I mentioned it to say thatas a country we've grappled,
we grappled with mental health issues.
I find that now in the two thousands,
(20:39):
2000 twenties, we are being moreopen about these conversations.
We're also seeing that,for example, pre covid,
the probability that someone in the USwould be experiencing some mental health
crisis in their lifetime was around 25%.
And that as we are coming out of covid,
(20:59):
the probability for someone 70 or youngermight experience some type of mental
health crisis has increasedto one in two or 50%.
Gregory Washington (21:07):
Whoa.
Melissa Perry (21:08):
So these are very, very real issues.
I felt strongly that the extremeisolation that so many millions of
people went through during covid certainlyexacerbated mental health issues.
The continuous bad news that weall had to consume on a daily basis
also exacerbated mental healthdistress. And I honestly believe,
(21:32):
and in some ways the Carter's reinforcethis in their notion of community
matters.
The connections that we have in our livesand how we cultivate them and the way
that we seek them out has atremendous impact on navigating
the hardships and the battles that eachof us has to navigate on a daily basis.
Gregory Washington (21:50):
I guess kind of all of this seems like it's kind of converging here, right?
If you have, Virginia Department ofHealth reported that from 2019 to 2020,
Virginia saw a 17% increase inoverdose deaths. Then in 2021,
37% of adults in Virginia reportedsymptoms of anxiety or depression.
And yet we have 22% of the folk inour population who are unable to get
(22:12):
counseling or therapy. When youstart to pull all of this together,
is this the triple healthcrisis in Virginia that you were
speaking of?
Melissa Perry (22:23):
I think that is very, uh, much how it's manifesting. I think these are very,
very, uh, real and pressingand alarming problems.
And at the same time, I believethat we can develop solutions.
We are developing solutions.I think the awareness,
public awareness is absolutely essential.
I think unpacking what we're looking atin terms of the healthcare crisis and
(22:47):
having enough providers,
it partly stems from pushingsystems beyond their capacity.
And that includes all of thehealthcare workers that were pushed far
beyond what they couldactually handle during covid.
And recognizing that we have to,
in many ways make sense andharmonize how we deliver healthcare,
(23:09):
how we access populations,
and how we support ourhealthcare providers,
our nurses and other health workers,
so that they can havea semblance of calm and
sanity and harmony in the work that theydo and they're so passionate about.
Healthcare workers are talking aboutnot as much pay as they're talking about
(23:31):
shortages that really compromisetheir ability to deliver quality care.
They care about their patientsand they can't deliver it.
When it comes to the opioidcrisis, goodness gracious,
who could imagine how lethalour current class of opioids has
become?
Who could imagine that? We've beencontending with drugs as a country for
(23:52):
decades now,
but we are in a place where thesedrugs that are currently being used,
fentanyl and other drugs are solethal that it really takes one use to
end a life. So I believea public health approach,
a public mental health approach,
a population approach to the provisionof health, health as a human right,
(24:13):
and also health provision asa common good that we all must
invest in and believein and be connected to,
is really the answer to this multipleepidemic or what's been referred to as a
syndemic of various healthcrises in the country.
Gregory Washington (24:29):
So why are we stuck in a deficit of this availability of care?
It goes well beyond having adequatenumber of staff people to deal with it.
Why are we stuck?
Melissa Perry (24:40):
Again, I like to anchor back to the early nineties where we had very, uh,
vigorous conversations as a societyand certainly among public health
leaders about this notion that healthcareshould not be treated as a commodity.
It shouldn't be only leftto the market to see how it
lands. In fact,
(25:01):
we have to covet the provision ofhealthcare to ensure that everyone gets
access to quality care rather thanjust those that can afford it,
or just those that can navigatean extremely complicated system.
Let's face it, we all recognize thatit's getting more and more complicated.
I think recent data I've readis that at least 27 million
(25:23):
Americans are carrying some typeof health related debt.
How did we get there?
How did we use healthcare andconvert it into a commodity?
And with a business mindsetwhen in fact, as a society,
we recognize it's critically importantthat everyone remain healthy and get
(25:43):
access to the care that they so deserve.
Gregory Washington (25:45):
So you're a big proponent of virtual reality as a healthcare tool.
And in order to tackle a problemlike this, we need scale, right?
More people need to getaccess to services and care.
So how can VR help inthese types of situations?
Melissa Perry (26:02):
Ah, that's a great topic, and you're absolutely right.
I think about things in terms ofpopulations. Thousands of people,
hundreds of thousands of people.
That's how I envision how a diseasemight travel through a population
that tells you so much about the disease,
about who's being affected andalso what's causing that disease.
And what are the factorsthat are hastening the transmission or the conditions
(26:23):
of the disease. To be honest,
I like to say that I'm abit of a digital migrant,
and that is that I essentiallytrained without a lot of technology.
I think I typed my, certainlymy undergraduate papers on an electric typewriter.
So I've never been a earlyadopter at technology,
but when I came to Mason and put on avirtual reality headset for the first
(26:48):
time, it was a huge aha moment. It was,
okay. So I think cynically, whenI heard about VR, I thought,
so we're retreating intothe virtual world, uh,
because we can't solveproblems in the real world?
I think that was my misguided notion.But once I experienced VR, I realized,
(27:08):
oh,
this is such a powerful way to immerse our
students in real worldsituations. So sure,
you can do role playing in the classroom,
but how about having immersive situationswhere you really feel like you're
there, either treating a patientor how about dealing with
(27:28):
a person that might be ina mental health crisis?
You don't want to be exposed to thatfor the first time when you're in the
middle of it. You really wantto, um, have preparation.
You wanna have simulation.
So I'm super excited by themany skills and the many
creative exposures we cangive our students to best prepare them to go out into
(27:50):
the world and know how are theygoing to treat their first patient,
or how are they goingto navigate, let's say,
the new unknown epidemicor a new chemical exposure?
We can write scenarios,
we can write cases that will have studentswork through all of those issues and
be well prepared when they graduate.
Gregory Washington (28:10):
That's interesting. 'cause you, you and I aren't too far apart in age.
And I remember back when Iworked on my dissertation,
it was on a Apple, a Macintosh machine.
So you were, uh, somewhatof a slow adopter early.
Melissa Perry (28:26):
I was, I was. So just for a correction.
So I was doing my undergrad paperson the typewriter I remember at
UVM, but for my master's in doctoral work,
it was this Gateway computerthat came in a Holstein
cow type black and white box. And that I had to assemble.
And then it had an MSDOSprompt.
(28:47):
So I remember that as well.
Gregory Washington (28:49):
Understood.
So can't talk these days aboutthe future without talking about
artificial intelligence. It's interesting.
We're not discussing enough how itcan be linked to public health, right?
We hear a lot about itwith physical health,
and we actually hearnow about mental health.
So where do you see the intersectionwith AI in public health?
Melissa Perry (29:15):
I think my years of being, not necessarily, I'd say a late adopter,
not a laggard or a Luddite,but maybe a late adopter.
I think I'm over that because I'verecognized that it hasn't, uh,
suited me well. So I would putmyself in an early adopter space
when it comes to AI. Ifeel a lot of optimism.
I feel worry for sure.
(29:35):
I share the many worries thatso many folks have put forward.
And perhaps we're in what youcould call a hype cycle where we're
overreacting to what AI hasto offer. With that said,
similar to virtual reality,
these machine learningtechnologies can push us further.
(29:56):
And we've seen head spinningdemonstrations of how AI can come up
with the detection of disease,
can come up with new diagnosesthat currently weren't understood.
So I think we need to poke and prodas judiciously and responsibly as
possible, and at the sametime, not be fearful.
We have to recognize that whatever we maybe teaching in public health right now
(30:21):
may quickly become outmoded.
But that means that embracing thesetechnologies and really preparing our
students for the next generationwhere they can harness it,
where they can have these powerfulcurated tools to support them,
to envision. I think there aredifferent minds for the future.
And I think the humanitarian mind, theethical mind, the synthesizing mind,
(30:45):
the moral mind,
those are areas of teaching andeducating that we can continue to do.
And no machine systemis going to change that.
Gregory Washington (30:54):
Right, to a certain extent. But what I will tell you,
I believe that AI affords an opportunity.
You're looking at data and you're lookingat large amounts of data relative to
measurements or outcomesrelative to public health for
communities, right?
And AI has the ability to see patternsand data that we may not catch early
(31:17):
enough. And so I think that there maybe something there in that regard.
I think there may be some benefits therethat will help
in the public health space.
Melissa Perry (31:28):
I completely agree. I think you're absolutely right.
The ability to process massive amountsof data and to be able to see patterns
and signals amidst a reams of datathat it's not humanly possible
to process. I think that will reallycatapult us forward. And again,
we're seeing that even inthe diagnostic space,
so.
Gregory Washington (31:47):
Right, I think
epidemiologists are gonna beusing these tools probably akin to
how they use a basic computer today.
I honestly believe the toolsare gonna be that helpful.
Melissa Perry (31:58):
I agree with you. I don't think that's farfetched at all.
And I do have a posture ofreceptivity and excitement about the
future and really wanna makesure that we are as proactive as
possible in understanding how best toharness this and how to teach these
opportunities of AI usage forour students so they can be
(32:19):
really in the driver's seat and theycan come up with new applications,
which I think are proliferating allthe time.
So the ability to power throughmassive amounts of data to detect,
again, new risk factors, newsignals, new causes of disease,
I remain very optimistic about.
Gregory Washington (32:36):
Well then you kind of answered my next question for me,
because this whole Centers for DiseaseControl report that came out in March that
basically states that AI is poisedto transform the practice of medicine
and the delivery of healthcare.
I would assume that you wouldwholeheartedly agree with that.
Melissa Perry (32:53):
I agree with that,
and I think that's the kindof open-mindedness that we need to be approaching
the power of AI. And at thesame time, understanding,
getting back to my point aboutensuring that we remain very focused
on access and equity,
making sure that we don't createfurther digital divides by whatever
(33:14):
strategies that we're using AI for.
We wanna make sure that our advancementsand our improvements are going to
benefit population health,
not just privileged populationsor those that are inclined
to navigate sophisticated systems.
We really wanna make it as accessibleand parsimonious and level the playing
(33:35):
field for everyone in our society.
Gregory Washington (33:38):
So prior to coming to Mason,
you completed a one year sabbaticalin Albania as part of the Fulbright
International EducationProgram for Global Scholars.
One thing you found in your interactionswith people in that population is
that one of the usual greetingsbetween people is, 'Are you tired?'
Melissa Perry (33:58):
Yes, that's exactly right.
Gregory Washington (33:59):
What did that tell you about the state of public health,
not necessarily in Albania,
everywhere as we deal with the physicaland mental stress of the pandemic
and its aftermath relative tothese other factors we discussed?
Melissa Perry (34:13):
I think it was very poignant. Yes.
I really had an insight tothat when I was in Albania.
It's true in the Albanianlanguage, one of the greetings,
the first greeting is how are you? Towhich everyone always responds fine.
And then the next is, are you tired?To which people usually say yes,
I'm kind of tired.
And so it has been atrue reflection of the
(34:35):
population burden of the stress andstrain of what we've been through.
At the same time, again, Ihave to hearken back to 2007.
I, on a personal basis,
feel as though the cognitivecomplexity and the digital overload
that I find myself immersedin and living every day.
I think that also can be beleaguering.
(34:57):
I think it can be somewhat isolatingand overwhelming that our poor brains
are trying to keep up with machines,
even simply our smartphonesas though we can process
information like we are machineswhen in fact we're not.
So there's a fatigue factor there.And as I said at the moment,
in March of 2020,
(35:19):
when so many universities senteverybody home, I just thought,
again, being in thatisolated place at home,
for those that had theprivilege of being at home,
because there were hundreds of thousandsof essential workers that didn't,
they were having to show up forwork on the front lines every day.
But for those people who were at home,
(35:40):
only able to get informationfrom their computer,
didn't have the ability tobe in their natural settings.
And that's among other people, I thinkour brains are wired to need that.
And then consuming constant bad news,
that was a very beleagueringand exhausting time.
And I think we're still working hardto come out of it to return to a sense
(36:04):
of normalcy. In reality,
I don't think we'll ever be the sameas we were pre Covid because
we learned profoundlessons about pathogens,
infectious diseases,
and the ability for newpathogens to change and to
mutate to create the next pandemic.
(36:26):
So it's not a matter of will therebe another pandemic? Unfortunately,
the answer is yes, it'sa matter of when.
Gregory Washington (36:33):
Mm-hmm.
Melissa Perry (36:33):
But there's so much that we as a society can learn.
I say that these haveto be lessons learned,
not just lessons observedas to what happened.
Why did we find ourselves so unprepared,and what can we do going forward?
For me, as a dean of acollege of public health,
it is training the next generation.
Gregory Washington (36:53):
I agree a hundred percent. You know,
The Washington Postreported that since 2020,
30 states have passed laws thatlimit public health authorities.
Given what we were talking about,given what we know,,
since the pandemic hit, what do yousee as the consequence of such an action?
(37:15):
Why? Why would they do this, by the way?
Melissa Perry (37:16):
Yes.
Oh, boy.
Yes, absolutely. You'veraised a really serious topic,
a really important topic, and anopportunity to learn a ton. Again,
lessons to learn ratherthan to just observe.
So in the early days of the pandemic,
fellow colleagues from the AmericanPublic Health Association published this
really eye-opening report wherethey demonstrated that over the past
(37:38):
25 years,
we as a country had lost250,000 public health jobs.
It was a staggering number.It was as though, as I mentioned,
training in epidemiology and publichealth at Johns Hopkins in the early
nineties,
I felt surrounded by cadresof public health leaders.
(38:00):
Many were going into theepidemiologic intelligence service.
They were being trained to be onthe front lines during crises,
such as the Covid-19 pandemic.And when it hit in 2020,
we were woefully unprepared.We didn't have those workers.
We hadn't invested in the public healthinfrastructure. We had uninvested.
(38:21):
And also data. Data is anepidemiologist bread and butter,
just as we were talking about withAI. You need good data, timely data,
accurate data, thorough data inorder to understand what's going on.
And what we found during thepandemic is that we didn't have it.
We didn't have the systems,
and a lot of conflicting forces weretrying to shield the data or hold
(38:44):
onto it and not release it.
So what you're just talking about theselaws about data usage is part of it.
It's the last directionwe wanna go in. In fact,
I would say data needs tobe a public possession.
It needs to be made in thepublic domain to better inform
how we prevent disease, howwe treat, how we respond,
(39:05):
how do we mitigate for allthe members of our society.
So the last thing we should be doingis disinvesting in public health.
Covid did make words likepandemic, epidemiology,
concepts such as infectious diseaseor disease rate or transmission.
Those became household words.
Gregory Washington (39:22):
Exactly. That's one of the silver linings in this whole thing.
Melissa Perry (39:26):
Absolutely. And that was a clarion call.
It was an opportunity for publichealth to rise to the occasion.
I think what we can't allow happen isthat we slip back into complacency because
we're not in crisis mode. And that, again,
we learn valuable lessons for nexttime versus just observe them.
Gregory Washington (39:44):
So in a perfect world, what would be your definition of public health?
Melissa Perry (39:48):
My definition would be the opportunity for health,
wellbeing and happinessfor all. Simply put.
Gregory Washington (39:57):
Outstanding. Outstanding. Well,
I can say we can't wait to see theresults of the work that you are doing,
your vision for our College ofPublic Health and where it's going
and the work in your individual lab.I kept a lab going when I was a dean.
What was that term you said inAlbania? Are you tired?
(40:17):
Are you tired?. .
I did that.
I kept a fairly large group of graduatestudents going during that time,
and I could tell you it was tiring,but it was quite fulfilling.
I really got a lot out of itpersonally. And my students,
I was able to do right by them too. SoI feel good about that time in my life.
(40:37):
Any last parting words?
Melissa Perry (40:40):
Absolutely. I just need to gush a little bit because since coming to Mason,
it's been really a lot of fun. I'm havinga really great time here. I feel very,
very affirmed and I feel very comfortable.And so I've been heard to say,
this will make you alittle bit embarrassed.
But as I'm talking aboutour president, I say,
Dr. Washington embodiesthe values and the vision
(41:03):
and the empathy that weall really are inspired by.
And I say that I will follow that guyanywhere,. Gregory Washington: I appreciate that.
So I'm experiencing a lot of gratitude for Mason,
for the way in which I've been welcomedhere for the support and excitement
about public health,
and just delighted to be partof this world class university.
Gregory Washington (41:25):
I appreciate that,
and I look forward to working withyou as we move forward in this journey
together.
Melissa Perry (41:31):
I'm really looking forward to that too.
Well, that's going to wrap thingsup here at Access to Excellence.
I'd like to thank Melissa Perry, thedean of the College of Public Health.
I am Mason President GregoryWashington saying, until next time,
stay safe, Mason Nation.
Narrator (41:51):
If you like what you heard on this podcast, go to podcast.gmu.edu
for more of Gregory Washington'sconversations with the thought leaders,
experts, and educators who take on thegrand challenges facing our students,
graduates, and higher education.That's podcast.gmu.edu.
Trailblazers in research innovators in technology,
and those who simply have a goodstory. All make up the fabric
that is George Mason University,
where taking on the grand challenges thatface our students graduates and higher
education is our mission and our passion.Hosted by Mason President Gregory
Washington, this is theAccess to Excellence podcast.
(00:27):
This podcast includes adiscussion about suicide.
If you or someone you know is experiencingsuicidal thoughts or a crisis,
please reach out immediately to theSuicide and Crisis Lifeline by calling or
texting 988.
You can also contact the crisistext line at 741-741.
These services are free and confidential.
Gregory Washington (00:49):
Melissa Perry grew up in rural Vermont about six miles
from the Canadian border.
As she prepared to attend theUniversity of Vermont in Burlington,
she fretted about driving inthe city because, as she said,
it would be too scary and too complicated.
But there is nothing timidabout what Dr. Perry,
(01:11):
the dean of George Mason University'sCollege of Public Health,
the first college of public health inVirginia, has accomplished in her career.
Dr. Perry is the immediate pastco-chair of the National Academies of
Sciences, Engineering and MedicineCommittee on Emerging Science.
And she is an ardent proponentof virtual reality as a
(01:35):
tool to help solve what she callsVirginia's triple health crisis:
A dramatic rise in opioid overdoses,
the growing demand formental health services,
and the declining supplyof qualified healthcare
practitioners. She also hasa famous relative singer,
(01:56):
Katie Perry, which we'll talk about.Dr. Perry, welcome to the show.
Melissa Perry (02:00):
Dr. Washington. I couldn't be more excited to be here. Thanks so much.
Gregory Washington (02:03):
Let's just get things started here. I'm curious what it was like for you,
coming from a small townin Highgate, Vermont.
Is it true that you were one of onlytwo students in your graduating class to
go on to college?
Melissa Perry (02:17):
It is true, in fact. So I went to Missisquoi Valley Union High School,
so it was a union school that hadseveral different feeder towns,
and I was coming from Highgate, Vermont,
and the students from my town,
there was a handful ofabout 30 or so students,
and only two of us endedup going to college.
(02:37):
So of our 400-studentgraduating class, two from
Highgate, Vermont went to college.
Gregory Washington (02:44):
So what did the other students do?
Melissa Perry (02:46):
Well, in Highgate, it's a really small town, as you mentioned,
just six miles south of the Canadianborder. Not a lot of industry,
not a lot of opportunity to beupwardly mobile, economically mobile.
So folks would sometimes farm.
They sometimes would work inlocal stores or gas stations.
Sometimes they would go into logging,oftentimes into construction.
(03:09):
But they oftentimes stayed close to homeand really didn't venture far out of
our town of Highgate in our countyof Franklin County, Vermont.
Gregory Washington (03:19):
So you go to the University of Vermont.
How did your time there change yourworldview and maybe even guide your career
choices? How did that happen?
Melissa Perry (03:27):
Going to university had a huge impact on me during high school.
I had a really troubled time,
and it was quite unlikelythat I would go to college.
A lot of folks didn't believe thatI was gonna be able to make it.
And when I finally arrivedat the University of Vermont,
if you can imagine this, it was the firsttime that I ever had health insurance.
(03:47):
So prior to that, growing up in Vermont,
our health insurance policy wasessentially don't get sick.
So I arrive on campus and itwas very overwhelming because
being from a tiny town, I hadn't hada lot of metropolitan experiences.
I hadn't really ventured far outof my town, whereas Burlington,
(04:08):
Vermont really felt like a metropolis.
And there were so many students comingfrom other states who had a lot more
resources and a lot more travel,
and a lot exposure to a lot of partsof the world that I'd had never seen
myself. And in fact,
there was a disparaging term forpeople coming directly from Vermont.
They were referred to as woodchucks.
(04:30):
And so I was seen as a woodchuckmy first year in college.
Ultimately, I was able to overcome thatfeeling of inhibition and embarrassment,
but really showing up forthe first time in Burlington,
Vermont on that campus was,
in the beginning very intimidatingand very overwhelming,
but ultimately it became, educationbecame so affirming for me.
(04:52):
I understood once that door opened,I just wanted to keep going.
Gregory Washington (04:56):
That is the liberating power of education, isn't it?
Melissa Perry (04:59):
Absolutely. Absolutely. That's my story.
Gregory Washington (05:02):
So tell me a little bit about your relationship to Katy Perry.
Melissa Perry (05:06):
So Katy Perry, my father left our family when I was really young.
It was like two yearsold when he first left.
And he was essentiallyestranged from our family.
It was my brother and mother and me,
and I didn't have a lot ofconnections with him over the years.
Later on I came to learnthat he had a half-sister,
(05:27):
so his father remarriedand had a daughter,
and that daughter was Christine.And Christine is Katie's mom.
So in fact, Katie and I sharethe same paternal grandfather,
and that makes us first half cousins.
Gregory Washington (05:42):
First half cousins.
Melissa Perry (05:44):
That's right, that's right.
Gregory Washington (05:45):
You know where I'm from. We just say, first cousin
Melissa Perry (05:50):
We share the same grandfather.
Gregory Washington (05:53):
No, understood, understood.
So let's talk a little bit about youbeing dean of the first college of
public health in Virginia. You workedat public health colleges before,
and I think when we gotconnected to you, you were at GW.
But I know you've spent some time atJohn Hopkins, at Harvard, and at GW.
Talk to us a little bit about why is adistinction of being a college of public
(06:16):
health so important?
Melissa Perry (06:18):
Absolutely. Yes. I think altogether,
I've been at schools and colleges ofpublic health for almost 35 years.
And in fact right now thereare over 30,000 students in the
country that are gettingdegrees in schools, colleges,
and programs of public health. They arestudying at the undergraduate level,
(06:40):
at the master's level, at the doctorallevel. They are studying epidemiology,
they're studying health services,
they're studying socialdeterminants of health.
They're studying environmentalhealth, infectious diseases.
And here at our college,
we also have components of public healththat include nursing and also social
(07:00):
work.
So suffice it to say a college orschool of public health makes sure that
we have the opportunity to trainin very focused ways to prepare
a whole myriad of public health expertsthat can respond to the pressing needs
of our country.
Gregory Washington (07:17):
So what is your vision for the college?
Where do you want to take it andwhat kind of impact can it have?
Melissa Perry (07:22):
There is no doubt in my mind that this college can have a tremendous impact.
Being the first college in thecommonwealth has been an ultimate honor,
privilege,
and important opportunity thatwe are pushing forward to be a
leader in providing training,
structured training and opportunitiesfor folks in the commonwealth and beyond
(07:44):
that want to sign up for beingpart of a public health change
in our region, in our state, inour nation, and in our world.
I'm really excited about beingable to convene leaders expertise
and also push forward and generatenew knowledge in areas of research.
I'm also super excited about how inclusiveexcellence across this university
(08:09):
resonates so powerfully withour College of Public Health.
The vast majority of our students,of our faculty, of our staff,
they really care in making sure thatwe ensure health is a human right.
And we ensure that everyone hasaccess to health and wellbeing
regardless of where you are in society,regardless of what Zip code you live in.
(08:30):
And I strongly believe that our Collegeof Public Health is doing this and will
continue to push forward withthose values and with that mission.
Gregory Washington (08:39):
I love it. Healthcare as a right, and everybody deserves access. You know,
that's so important in thisday and time. You know,
I don't have time to go through all ofthe programs in the college, but one
that
personifies exactly what you'vejust highlighted there is our
Mason and Partners, or MAP clinics,
(08:59):
and they provide healthcare to reallyvulnerable populations in the community.
So talk to me about how thatprogram fits into the broader
college goals that you have.
Melissa Perry (09:11):
Yes. I have to share the story with you, Dr. Washington.
When I was interviewing for this position,
and I first learned aboutMason and Partner clinics, I almost didn't believe it.
What I came to understand was somethingthat hearkened back to a period in my
training in the early ninetieswhere there was active interest in
(09:31):
people going into health, going intomedicine, going into public health,
going into nursing,
really invested in respondingto underserved communities,
marginalized communities,
and making sure that everyonehad access to healthcare. And so,
so many of those clinicshave somehow disappeared,
whereas George Mason has made surethat the Mason and Partner clinics
(09:54):
are alive and well,
thanks to a lot of hard work on the partof our incredible nurse leaders and our
nurse, nursing students, andmaking sure that everyone,
those folks that are the mostinvisible, the most marginalized,
the most hard to reach,
are getting access in Fairfax andalso in Prince William County.
We're super proud of the MAP clinics,
(10:15):
and we wanna continue to advance and alsoensure that they're as well integrated
across the college as possible andalso presenting great opportunities for
our students across the university.
Gregory Washington (10:27):
It is a fantastic program,
and it really does personify the campus.
So what other research programs are atthe College of Public Health that have
you excited?
Melissa Perry (10:39):
We are having a great time in advancing our council on education and public
health accreditation.This is a big deal for us.
Launching this college hasmeant the support from Mason,
the support of the commonwealth,the support of the community.
And so now we're hard at work puttingtogether our self-study so that the entire
(10:59):
college will be accredited.
We're really enjoying theopportunity to integrate nursing.
We're very proud of our school of nursing,
ensuring that nurses are learning frompublic health leaders and epidemiologists
and health service experts arealso learning from nursing.
And then also social work.
What a point of pride to have a departmentof social work within a college of
(11:21):
public health. And we hear that fromstudents and from faculty saying,
this is unique, this istruly interdisciplinary,
and this is exactly what we're lookingfor for innovation in health services,
provision of healthcare, andalso in prevention of disease.
Gregory Washington (11:36):
Outstanding. Outstanding.
So let's talk a little bit aboutyour personal connection to
public health. How didyou get into the field?
Melissa Perry (11:46):
I really appreciate the question, Dr. Washington. And actually,
this goes way back, it goesway back to when I was
young and growing up in rural Vermont.
And in fact, that tiny townhad very few, as I mentioned,
economic opportunities.There was a lot of strife,
a lot of mental emotionalstrife. There was unemployment.
(12:07):
There were many a single parent families.
There was quite a bit of alcohol abuse,
tons of tobacco use and other drugs.
And at a point when I wasquite young, right around 14,
it was a very lonely time in mylife. I was a lonely adolescent.
My mom was working nightand day at this, actually,
(12:29):
it was a local watering hole.It was essentially a snack bar,
but it was really a bar. That's howwe're able to make some money by selling,
uh, beer and wine. And shewas working night and day.
So I didn't have the supportivefamily of community of friends.
I really didn't have anyone.
And I reached a point ofdespair and I was at home alone
(12:51):
and felt as though nothing would change,
really had hit rock bottom insadness and loneliness and despair.
And so I found a bunch of pills.I didn't know what they were.
I just knew at that momentthat I didn't wanna continue.
I didn't wanna continueliving with this kind of pain.
And so I took a bunch of pills. Ididn't know what they were at the time.
(13:13):
I just swallowed, um, Idon't know, 50 or so pills.
And I guess through tremendousgrace, my brother found me.
He came home and he foundme. He called the ambulance.
And the next thing I remember,
I woke up in the intensive careunit in Burlington, Vermont.
I had tubes everywhere, hadno idea how they got there
(13:36):
and woke up to realize that three dayshad passed and I had been in a coma.
I was absolutely terrified by what Ihad just done. I couldn't believe it.
It was unfathomable what I hadjust attempted. At that moment
I knew I didn't wanna die.I knew I wanted to live.
And it was through thesupport of a lot of folks,
(13:58):
the friends that I didn't know I had,I didn't feel like I had. Teachers,
mental health workers,guidance counselors,
all of these people reached out tome and said to me, you really matter.
We don't want to lose you.And I would say, looking back,
that that was a transformative moment.
That was the moment where I decided Ireally wanted to make a difference in the
(14:21):
world. I wanted to addressmental health crises.
I wanted to address pain and suffering,and I wanted to get busy living.
And I just wanted to tellyou, Dr. Washington, that, um,
this is the first time that I'veactually shared this story publicly.
And I did it for two reasons.
One is that I really respectyou and I really trust you,
(14:42):
and I know how you and all ofour people at George Mason really
care about mental health,mental health crises,
people that may be experiencingsuicidality or suicidal
ideation. So I knew this wasa safe place to talk about it.
And then secondly, I hopethat by sharing this message,
(15:04):
if even one person hears this andfeels as though this resonates with
you, you have to know thatthere is another side.
That it's common tobelieve that there's not.
But you can get through whateveryou're dealing with and push through.
And there is support to get youthrough. And I guess my story is,
(15:24):
is an example of that.
Gregory Washington (15:26):
Well, first and foremost, I, I'm humbled. I wanna say thank you for sharing.
You never know what people are dealingwith and what individuals who might be
listening to thispodcast are dealing with.
So I am grateful foryou sharing your story,
that the story could havean impact on someone else.
The reality is you have achievedtremendous heights since
(15:47):
that time. You know, andlook at where you are today.
That's really kind of a message.It's a message of triumph,
but it's also a message for people whomay be in a point of despair right now.
These things can turn around.
You can end up at a greatpoint in life. And also,
I would say to those ofyou out here listening,
if you or someone you know isexperiencing suicidal thoughts or
(16:12):
crisis,
please reach out immediatelyto our suicide and crisis
lifeline by calling or texting 988.
You can also contactthe crisis text line at
741-741.
These services are allfree and confidential.
(16:32):
So with that as a backdrop ofwhat you just highlighted to us,
what were your thoughts when youread the report by the Center's, uh,
for Disease Control? That said,
nearly 57% of teen girls in the US
felt persistently sad or hopeless.
Double that of boys, and30% of teen girls seriously
(16:55):
considered suicide.
Melissa Perry (16:56):
It was incredibly distressing. My first reaction was distress.
The second reaction was, Iidentify, the third reaction was,
I really need to talk about my ownexperience as a way of reaching out,
as a way of affirming what it'slike to be in that space. As a,
as adolescent girl feeling hopeless.
I'm really concerned as an epidemiologistand as a public health leader,
(17:20):
that we have seen such atremendous increase in the sense
of loneliness anddespair and hopelessness.
I feel strongly that despite the many,
many advances that we'veexperienced with technology,
we're also experiencing aepidemic of loneliness
in a very paradoxical way.
(17:41):
I anchor back to justabout 16 years ago, 2007,
when the smartphone arrived.And before you know it,
we all had this small glassrectangle in our hands.
And by its very nature, westart to tune others out.
There's an important quotethat I've used before,
(18:02):
and that is behind any type ofmachine, whether or not it's a gun,
a car, or a computer,
we are at risk of losinga piece of our humanity.
And so as we find ourselvescommuning at the screen,
I think we're disconnectinginadvertently, unconsciously,
unintentionally from each other.
And so to have such a massive numberof teen girls throughout the US
(18:26):
experiencing, uh,
loneliness and despair tells methat it's critically important
to rally support, toturn toward each other,
to continuously recognize howmuch our teens need us as adults,
as community members, as friends,as leaders, as parents, as teachers,
(18:47):
as educators,
and really recognize the criticalimportance of shared humanity and being
present for each other.
Gregory Washington (18:55):
Look, you, you
but you're indeed teaching today.You know, a year or so ago,
we did a podcast with Robyn Mehlenbeck,and I don't know if you know, uh, Robyn.
Melissa Perry (19:08):
Yes. I've interacted with Robin for sure.
I really admire herleadership at the university.
Gregory Washington (19:12):
Yeah. So she heads our Center for Psychological Services,
and one of the things she said, itstuck with me, and it was, she said,
A mental health crisis on the heelsof Covid would actually be the
country's second pandemic.What do you think about that?
And is this all tied together?
Melissa Perry (19:31):
I think that's a very powerful,
very insightful statement. I wanted toshare with you. I thought you'd enjoy
hearing that yesterday,
I was over in Arlington at theCarter School and we had this great
symposium on the many contributionsthat Jimmy and Rosalynn
Carter have made to theworld.
And so I convened a fireside chatwith a colleague of mine, Eliot Sorel,
(19:55):
who's a very well-known public mentalhealth, global health psychiatrist.
And we talked about the way in whichthe Carters were grappling with mental
health issues in the 1980s.What were the issues then?
It was partly ensuring that peoplewere coming out of mental hospitals.
It was distigmatizingmental health issues.
(20:18):
It was funding research so we couldbetter understand how common these issues
were. So we had a very robustconversation. So that's the 1980s.
And I mentioned it to say thatas a country we've grappled,
we grappled with mental health issues.
I find that now in the two thousands,
(20:39):
2000 twenties, we are being moreopen about these conversations.
We're also seeing that,for example, pre covid,
the probability that someone in the USwould be experiencing some mental health
crisis in their lifetime was around 25%.
And that as we are coming out of covid,
(20:59):
the probability for someone 70 or youngermight experience some type of mental
health crisis has increasedto one in two or 50%.
Gregory Washington (21:07):
Whoa.
Melissa Perry (21:08):
So these are very, very real issues.
I felt strongly that the extremeisolation that so many millions of
people went through during covid certainlyexacerbated mental health issues.
The continuous bad news that weall had to consume on a daily basis
also exacerbated mental healthdistress. And I honestly believe,
(21:32):
and in some ways the Carter's reinforcethis in their notion of community
matters.
The connections that we have in our livesand how we cultivate them and the way
that we seek them out has atremendous impact on navigating
the hardships and the battles that eachof us has to navigate on a daily basis.
Gregory Washington (21:50):
I guess kind of all of this seems like it's kind of converging here, right?
If you have, Virginia Department ofHealth reported that from 2019 to 2020,
Virginia saw a 17% increase inoverdose deaths. Then in 2021,
37% of adults in Virginia reportedsymptoms of anxiety or depression.
And yet we have 22% of the folk inour population who are unable to get
(22:12):
counseling or therapy. When youstart to pull all of this together,
is this the triple healthcrisis in Virginia that you were
speaking of?
Melissa Perry (22:23):
I think that is very, uh, much how it's manifesting. I think these are very,
very, uh, real and pressingand alarming problems.
And at the same time, I believethat we can develop solutions.
We are developing solutions.I think the awareness,
public awareness is absolutely essential.
I think unpacking what we're looking atin terms of the healthcare crisis and
(22:47):
having enough providers,
it partly stems from pushingsystems beyond their capacity.
And that includes all of thehealthcare workers that were pushed far
beyond what they couldactually handle during covid.
And recognizing that we have to,
in many ways make sense andharmonize how we deliver healthcare,
(23:09):
how we access populations,
and how we support ourhealthcare providers,
our nurses and other health workers,
so that they can havea semblance of calm and
sanity and harmony in the work that theydo and they're so passionate about.
Healthcare workers are talking aboutnot as much pay as they're talking about
(23:31):
shortages that really compromisetheir ability to deliver quality care.
They care about their patientsand they can't deliver it.
When it comes to the opioidcrisis, goodness gracious,
who could imagine how lethalour current class of opioids has
become?
Who could imagine that? We've beencontending with drugs as a country for
(23:52):
decades now,
but we are in a place where thesedrugs that are currently being used,
fentanyl and other drugs are solethal that it really takes one use to
end a life. So I believea public health approach,
a public mental health approach,
a population approach to the provisionof health, health as a human right,
(24:13):
and also health provision asa common good that we all must
invest in and believein and be connected to,
is really the answer to this multipleepidemic or what's been referred to as a
syndemic of various healthcrises in the country.
Gregory Washington (24:29):
So why are we stuck in a deficit of this availability of care?
It goes well beyond having adequatenumber of staff people to deal with it.
Why are we stuck?
Melissa Perry (24:40):
Again, I like to anchor back to the early nineties where we had very, uh,
vigorous conversations as a societyand certainly among public health
leaders about this notion that healthcareshould not be treated as a commodity.
It shouldn't be only leftto the market to see how it
lands. In fact,
(25:01):
we have to covet the provision ofhealthcare to ensure that everyone gets
access to quality care rather thanjust those that can afford it,
or just those that can navigatean extremely complicated system.
Let's face it, we all recognize thatit's getting more and more complicated.
I think recent data I've readis that at least 27 million
(25:23):
Americans are carrying some typeof health related debt.
How did we get there?
How did we use healthcare andconvert it into a commodity?
And with a business mindsetwhen in fact, as a society,
we recognize it's critically importantthat everyone remain healthy and get
(25:43):
access to the care that they so deserve.
Gregory Washington (25:45):
So you're a big proponent of virtual reality as a healthcare tool.
And in order to tackle a problemlike this, we need scale, right?
More people need to getaccess to services and care.
So how can VR help inthese types of situations?
Melissa Perry (26:02):
Ah, that's a great topic, and you're absolutely right.
I think about things in terms ofpopulations. Thousands of people,
hundreds of thousands of people.
That's how I envision how a diseasemight travel through a population
that tells you so much about the disease,
about who's being affected andalso what's causing that disease.
And what are the factorsthat are hastening the transmission or the conditions
(26:23):
of the disease. To be honest,
I like to say that I'm abit of a digital migrant,
and that is that I essentiallytrained without a lot of technology.
I think I typed my, certainlymy undergraduate papers on an electric typewriter.
So I've never been a earlyadopter at technology,
but when I came to Mason and put on avirtual reality headset for the first
(26:48):
time, it was a huge aha moment. It was,
okay. So I think cynically, whenI heard about VR, I thought,
so we're retreating intothe virtual world, uh,
because we can't solveproblems in the real world?
I think that was my misguided notion.But once I experienced VR, I realized,
(27:08):
oh,
this is such a powerful way to immerse our
students in real worldsituations. So sure,
you can do role playing in the classroom,
but how about having immersive situationswhere you really feel like you're
there, either treating a patientor how about dealing with
(27:28):
a person that might be ina mental health crisis?
You don't want to be exposed to thatfor the first time when you're in the
middle of it. You really wantto, um, have preparation.
You wanna have simulation.
So I'm super excited by themany skills and the many
creative exposures we cangive our students to best prepare them to go out into
(27:50):
the world and know how are theygoing to treat their first patient,
or how are they goingto navigate, let's say,
the new unknown epidemicor a new chemical exposure?
We can write scenarios,
we can write cases that will have studentswork through all of those issues and
be well prepared when they graduate.
Gregory Washington (28:10):
That's interesting. 'cause you, you and I aren't too far apart in age.
And I remember back when Iworked on my dissertation,
it was on a Apple, a Macintosh machine.
So you were, uh, somewhatof a slow adopter early.
Melissa Perry (28:26):
I was, I was. So just for a correction.
So I was doing my undergrad paperson the typewriter I remember at
UVM, but for my master's in doctoral work,
it was this Gateway computerthat came in a Holstein
cow type black and white box. And that I had to assemble.
And then it had an MSDOSprompt
(28:47):
So I remember that as well.
Gregory Washington (28:49):
Understood.
So can't talk these days aboutthe future without talking about
artificial intelligence. It's interesting.
We're not discussing enough how itcan be linked to public health, right?
We hear a lot about itwith physical health,
and we actually hearnow about mental health.
So where do you see the intersectionwith AI in public health?
Melissa Perry (29:15):
I think my years of being, not necessarily, I'd say a late adopter,
not a laggard or a Luddite,but maybe a late adopter.
I think I'm over that because I'verecognized that it hasn't, uh,
suited me well. So I would putmyself in an early adopter space
when it comes to AI. Ifeel a lot of optimism.
I feel worry for sure.
(29:35):
I share the many worries thatso many folks have put forward.
And perhaps we're in what youcould call a hype cycle where we're
overreacting to what AI hasto offer. With that said,
similar to virtual reality,
these machine learningtechnologies can push us further.
(29:56):
And we've seen head spinningdemonstrations of how AI can come up
with the detection of disease,
can come up with new diagnosesthat currently weren't understood.
So I think we need to poke and prodas judiciously and responsibly as
possible, and at the sametime, not be fearful.
We have to recognize that whatever we maybe teaching in public health right now
(30:21):
may quickly become outmoded.
But that means that embracing thesetechnologies and really preparing our
students for the next generationwhere they can harness it,
where they can have these powerfulcurated tools to support them,
to envision. I think there aredifferent minds for the future.
And I think the humanitarian mind, theethical mind, the synthesizing mind,
(30:45):
the moral mind,
those are areas of teaching andeducating that we can continue to do.
And no machine systemis going to change that.
Gregory Washington (30:54):
Right, to a certain extent. But what I will tell you,
I believe that AI affords an opportunity.
You're looking at data and you're lookingat large amounts of data relative to
measurements or outcomesrelative to public health for
communities, right?
And AI has the ability to see patternsand data that we may not catch early
(31:17):
enough. And so I think that there maybe something there in that regard.
I think there may be some benefits therethat will help
in the public health space.
Melissa Perry (31:28):
I completely agree. I think you're absolutely right.
The ability to process massive amountsof data and to be able to see patterns
and signals amidst a reams of datathat it's not humanly possible
to process. I think that will reallycatapult us forward. And again,
we're seeing that even inthe diagnostic space,
so.
Gregory Washington (31:47):
Right, I think
epidemiologists are gonna beusing these tools probably akin to
how they use a basic computer today.
I honestly believe the toolsare gonna be that helpful.
Melissa Perry (31:58):
I agree with you. I don't think that's farfetched at all.
And I do have a posture ofreceptivity and excitement about the
future and really wanna makesure that we are as proactive as
possible in understanding how best toharness this and how to teach these
opportunities of AI usage forour students so they can be
(32:19):
really in the driver's seat and theycan come up with new applications,
which I think are proliferating allthe time.
So the ability to power throughmassive amounts of data to detect,
again, new risk factors, newsignals, new causes of disease,
I remain very optimistic about.
Gregory Washington (32:36):
Well then you kind of answered my next question for me,
because this whole Centers for DiseaseControl report that came out in March that
basically states that AI is poisedto transform the practice of medicine
and the delivery of healthcare.
I would assume that you wouldwholeheartedly agree with that.
Melissa Perry (32:53):
I agree with that,
and I think that's the kindof open-mindedness that we need to be approaching
the power of AI. And at thesame time, understanding,
getting back to my point aboutensuring that we remain very focused
on access and equity,
making sure that we don't createfurther digital divides by whatever
(33:14):
strategies that we're using AI for.
We wanna make sure that our advancementsand our improvements are going to
benefit population health,
not just privileged populationsor those that are inclined
to navigate sophisticated systems.
We really wanna make it as accessibleand parsimonious and level the playing
(33:35):
field for everyone in our society.
Gregory Washington (33:38):
So prior to coming to Mason,
you completed a one year sabbaticalin Albania as part of the Fulbright
International EducationProgram for Global Scholars.
One thing you found in your interactionswith people in that population is
that one of the usual greetingsbetween people is, 'Are you tired?'
Melissa Perry (33:58):
Yes, that's exactly right.
Gregory Washington (33:59):
What did that tell you about the state of public health,
not necessarily in Albania,
everywhere as we deal with the physicaland mental stress of the pandemic
and its aftermath relative tothese other factors we discussed?
Melissa Perry (34:13):
I think it was very poignant. Yes.
I really had an insight tothat when I was in Albania.
It's true in the Albanianlanguage, one of the greetings,
the first greeting is how are you? Towhich everyone always responds fine.
And then the next is, are you tired?To which people usually say yes,
I'm kind of tired.
And so it has been atrue reflection of the
(34:35):
population burden of the stress andstrain of what we've been through.
At the same time, again, Ihave to hearken back to 2007.
I, on a personal basis,
feel as though the cognitivecomplexity and the digital overload
that I find myself immersedin and living every day.
I think that also can be beleaguering.
(34:57):
I think it can be somewhat isolatingand overwhelming that our poor brains
are trying to keep up with machines,
even simply our smartphonesas though we can process
information like we are machineswhen in fact we're not.
So there's a fatigue factor there.And as I said at the moment,
in March of 2020,
(35:19):
when so many universities senteverybody home, I just thought,
again, being in thatisolated place at home,
for those that had theprivilege of being at home,
because there were hundreds of thousandsof essential workers that didn't,
they were having to show up forwork on the front lines every day.
But for those people who were at home,
(35:40):
only able to get informationfrom their computer,
didn't have the ability tobe in their natural settings.
And that's among other people, I thinkour brains are wired to need that.
And then consuming constant bad news,
that was a very beleagueringand exhausting time.
And I think we're still working hardto come out of it to return to a sense
(36:04):
of normalcy. In reality,
I don't think we'll ever be the sameas we were pre Covid because
we learned profoundlessons about pathogens,
infectious diseases,
and the ability for newpathogens to change and to
mutate to create the next pandemic.
(36:26):
So it's not a matter of will therebe another pandemic? Unfortunately,
the answer is yes, it'sa matter of when.
Gregory Washington (36:33):
Mm-hmm
Melissa Perry (36:33):
But there's so much that we as a society can learn.
I say that these haveto be lessons learned,
not just lessons observedas to what happened.
Why did we find ourselves so unprepared,and what can we do going forward?
For me, as a dean of acollege of public health,
it is training the next generation.
Gregory Washington (36:53):
I agree a hundred percent. You know,
The Washington Postreported that since 2020,
30 states have passed laws thatlimit public health authorities.
Given what we were talking about,given what we know,
since the pandemic hit, what do yousee as the consequence of such an action?
(37:15):
Why? Why would they do this, by the way?
Melissa Perry (37:16):
Yes.
Oh, boy.
Yes, absolutely. You'veraised a really serious topic,
a really important topic, and anopportunity to learn a ton. Again,
lessons to learn ratherthan to just observe.
So in the early days of the pandemic,
fellow colleagues from the AmericanPublic Health Association published this
really eye-opening report wherethey demonstrated that over the past
(37:38):
25 years,
we as a country had lost250,000 public health jobs.
It was a staggering number.It was as though, as I mentioned,
training in epidemiology and publichealth at Johns Hopkins in the early
nineties,
I felt surrounded by cadresof public health leaders.
(38:00):
Many were going into theepidemiologic intelligence service.
They were being trained to be onthe front lines during crises,
such as the Covid-19 pandemic.And when it hit in 2020,
we were woefully unprepared.We didn't have those workers.
We hadn't invested in the public healthinfrastructure. We had uninvested.
(38:21):
And also data. Data is anepidemiologist bread and butter,
just as we were talking about withAI. You need good data, timely data,
accurate data, thorough data inorder to understand what's going on.
And what we found during thepandemic is that we didn't have it.
We didn't have the systems,
and a lot of conflicting forces weretrying to shield the data or hold
(38:44):
onto it and not release it.
So what you're just talking about theselaws about data usage is part of it.
It's the last directionwe wanna go in. In fact,
I would say data needs tobe a public possession.
It needs to be made in thepublic domain to better inform
how we prevent disease, howwe treat, how we respond,
(39:05):
how do we mitigate for allthe members of our society.
So the last thing we should be doingis disinvesting in public health.
Covid did make words likepandemic, epidemiology,
concepts such as infectious diseaseor disease rate or transmission.
Those became household words.
Gregory Washington (39:22):
Exactly. That's one of the silver linings in this whole thing.
Melissa Perry (39:26):
Absolutely. And that was a clarion call.
It was an opportunity for publichealth to rise to the occasion.
I think what we can't allow happen isthat we slip back into complacency because
we're not in crisis mode. And that, again,
we learn valuable lessons for nexttime versus just observe them.
Gregory Washington (39:44):
So in a perfect world, what would be your definition of public health?
Melissa Perry (39:48):
My definition would be the opportunity for health,
wellbeing and happinessfor all. Simply put.
Gregory Washington (39:57):
Outstanding. Outstanding. Well,
I can say we can't wait to see theresults of the work that you are doing,
your vision for our College ofPublic Health and where it's going
and the work in your individual lab.I kept a lab going when I was a dean.
What was that term you said inAlbania? Are you tired?
(40:17):
Are you tired?
I did that.
I kept a fairly large group of graduatestudents going during that time,
and I could tell you it was tiring,but it was quite fulfilling.
I really got a lot out of itpersonally. And my students,
I was able to do right by them too. SoI feel good about that time in my life.
(40:37):
Any last parting words?
Melissa Perry (40:40):
Absolutely. I just need to gush a little bit because since coming to Mason,
it's been really a lot of fun. I'm havinga really great time here. I feel very,
very affirmed and I feel very comfortable.And so I've been heard to say,
this will make you alittle bit embarrassed.
But as I'm talking aboutour president, I say,
Dr. Washington embodiesthe values and the vision
(41:03):
and the empathy that weall really are inspired by.
And I say that I will follow that guyanywhere,
So I'm experiencing a lot of gratitude for Mason,
for the way in which I've been welcomedhere for the support and excitement
about public health,
and just delighted to be partof this world class university.
Gregory Washington (41:25):
I appreciate that,
and I look forward to working withyou as we move forward in this journey
together.
Melissa Perry (41:31):
I'm really looking forward to that too.
Well, that's going to wrap thingsup here at Access to Excellence.
I'd like to thank Melissa Perry, thedean of the College of Public Health.
I am Mason President GregoryWashington saying, until next time,
stay safe, Mason Nation.
Narrator (41:51):
If you like what you heard on this podcast, go to podcast.gmu.edu
for more of Gregory Washington'sconversations with the thought leaders,
experts, and educators who take on thegrand challenges facing our students,
graduates, and higher education.That's podcast.gmu.edu.
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