April 30, 2024 • 27 mins
Gretchen Rubin is a NYTimes best selling author and one of today’s most influential and thought-provoking observers of happiness and human nature. In this Chat episode, she shares the details of her journey from law clerk of Sandra Day O'Connor to her current role as author, podcast host, App creator and more. Learn how she transitioned to life as a full-time writer and how she navigated structuring her business so that she can remain focused on creating, not managing.
This episode is a roadmap for all the creatives and dreamers that are considering leaving their day-to-day behind and following their dreams. Gretchen's "Life in Five Senses" is the perfect book pairing to the episode for those seeking to get out of their head and back into the moment. We celebrate the release of the paperback version launching the same day as this episode.
Thank you for listening! Subscribe to our YouTube page to be notified with new content. In the meantime, feel free to explore more accounting and business resources. If you think your entrepreneurial story is a perfect fit for an Accountfully Chat, reach out to the marketing team to talk more.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
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Brad Ebenhoeh (00:08):
Welcome to the Accountfully chat another
episode here this week today wehave Gretchen Rubin, New York
Times best selling author.
How're you doing today,Gretchen?
Gretchen Rubin (00:17):
Pretty good. I'm very happy to be talking to you.
Brad Ebenhoeh (00:20):
Yes. And we're very excited that you're here
chatting with us today. Soyou've been a client of
Accountfully for several years.
And it's been great working withyou and your team. On a lot of
aspects from accounting andtaxes. But really, we want to
focus on your journey, becominga creative and an author as well
as then you know, how you'vegrown a business and what
systems and processes you put inplace today. So before we get
(00:42):
started, can we get a backgroundof kind of where you came from,
you know, where, how you decidedto become an author and all
those things there.
Gretchen Rubin (00:52):
Well, I started my career in law, I went to law
school, and then I was actuallyclerking for Supreme Court
Justice Sandra Day O'Connor,when I decided that I wanted to
be a writer. I started out byhaving an idea for a book before
I even thought about beingwriting that book, I was going
(01:12):
for a walk on Capitol Hill oneday, during my lunch hour. And I
thought to myself, well, what amI interested in that everybody
in the world is interested in,and I thought, well, power,
money, fame, sex. And it waslike power, money, fame, sex.
And I just ran out and startedresearching those subjects,
which to me felt very tiedtogether. And this is something
(01:33):
that has happened to me eversince I was very young, I'll get
intensely interested insomething and do a huge amount
of research and writing and notetaking. So that was a very
familiar process for me. Butwith this project, it just got
bigger and bigger and bigger.
And finally, I thought, well,this is the kind of thing people
would do if they were going towrite a book. And then I
thought, well, you know, maybe Icould write that book. And so I
(01:55):
went to the bookstore and got abook called "How to Write and
Sell Your Non-Fiction BookProposal|". And I pretty much
just followed the directions.
But you know, I was fortunatebecause it one point I thought,
you know, at this point, I'drather fail as a writer than
succeed as a lawyer. I didn'treally know what I wanted to do
(02:17):
in law, but I very much wantedto write this book. It wasn't
even that I just wanted to be awriter, I wanted to write this
book. So it was sort of like,okay, well, let me take my shot,
I'll succeed or fail. And thenI'll figure out what to do next.
And fortunately for me, I got anagent. And that was indeed my
first book. So so it all workedout, which makes it sound much
easier than it was, but thatthat's how I became a writer.
Brad Ebenhoeh (02:40):
That's, that's an awesome story. Did you while you
were writing the book, and andfollowing the steps in the
instructions of that book thatyou bought, were you still
working at the law firm? Or didyou like quick cut it off, or
kind of what did that processare, I
Gretchen Rubin (02:54):
Well I actually never worked at a law firm. So I
was clerking. I was clerking onthe Supreme Court. So I did
that. Then I went to go work atthe Federal Communications
Commission, I was a senioradviser there. So I was sort of,
you know, in, in the governmentdoing that. And so I would still
be doing the work, you know, onthe weekends at night and my
free time. And then, so, myhusband, I were living in DC,
(03:18):
and we decided we wanted to moveback to New York. And at that
time, he decided to switchfrom–we met in law school–he
decided to switch from law intofinance. And I decided to try to
get an agent. And so that's whenI started, I sort of started
full time, trying to be awriter. And that's why getting
an agent was so exciting,because I felt like getting an
(03:39):
agent made me a professional,sort of, because somebody was
investing in me by giving metheir time. And if you're an
agent, your time is your money.
And so that was a reallyimportant step for me. And at
that time, I, that was just atthe time, when I had really gone
to be I didn't at that time havea full time job. But for most of
that period, I was working fulltime in one way or another.
Brad Ebenhoeh (04:04):
Was there any point in the journey when you
were basically all in with theagent writing your book, no job
where you were like, Oh, Imessed up, I need to go
backwards and start over Are youjust kind of, you know, moving
forward?
Gretchen Rubin (04:17):
I was pretty much moving forward, I had a
very clear sense of what Iwanted to do, and it was
unfolding. But of course, I wasfortunate that I was married. I
think anytime that like there'stwo of you, it's a lot easier to
take a risk because you've gotthat buffer. So I feel fortunate
that you know, I wasn't just youknow, out there hanging solo as
I was making this big jump.
Brad Ebenhoeh (04:38):
So then as you move forward in that journey,
and you know, your book gotpublished and all that aspect,
how did all that unfold overtime in terms of Alright, I've
made it or I have a book nowwhat's next? Now I need to build
a team out, a business, youknow, how did all the that like
process and your mindset workand what those aspects
Gretchen Rubin (04:59):
Well It's interesting because my time as a
writer has really overlappedwith just immense changes in the
world of writing, the world ofthe media, the world, the way
that people communicate ideas.
And so because my, I'm bestknown probably for my book, The
Happiness Project, and you knowwhat a lot of a lot of people
assume that was my first book.
But of course, like many people,I worked very hard for 10 years
(05:22):
to then become an overnightsensation. And what happened
with the hat, what what happenedwith the Happiness Project was
the book that I wrote before,that was called 40 ways to look
at JFK. And this was a book thatI loved. And if you have a book
that flops, what they tell youin publishing, as they say, your
book didn't find its audience.
That means your book was a bigfailure. So my book did not find
(05:43):
its audience. And what thatreally got me convinced of was
that I needed to have my own wayto reach an audience. Because I
was convinced that there weremany people who would be
interested in my book, there wasan audience for the book, but
they were not finding it.
Because at that time, you had togo through, you know, TV and
(06:05):
book reviewers and all this. AndI really thought, wow, I wish I
had my own way to communicatewith readers or people that I
think would be interested in mysubject. And that was right when
blogging was becoming somethingthat a person who was not very
tech savvy could do. So Istarted a blog. I was then
beginning work on the book thatbecame the Happiness Project.
(06:25):
And I thought, Okay, well, I'lldo a blog alongside that one of
the one of the things I neededto test that Happiness Project
is all my experiments and how tobe happier. And one of the
things I needed to experimentwith is doing something that was
novel and challenging. So Ithought, well, something novel
and challenging would be tostart a blog, because I have no
idea what that was. I've neverwritten short form like that.
I'm not tech savvy. You know,writing every day sounds
(06:49):
incredibly challenging. But Iwas like, Okay, I got to do it.
It's part of the the experimentsof the Happiness Project. So I
did it. And that was a huge,that was a huge engine of
happiness for me. And it was away to connect with people about
my subject before the book evenhit. And so then when the book
came out, there were a lot ofpeople that I was already in
communication with, and I couldtell them about the book. And
(07:11):
so, you know, you never know, ifit's good news or bad news when
something happens. And for me,the failure of the 40 ways to
look at JFK was reallyfortunate, because I think if
that book had been, had evenbeen a mediocre success, I
wouldn't have thought, Okay, Ineed to be able to connect with
readers myself, I would havejust thought, Okay, this system
(07:33):
works for me. And so then itworked great. So then I did have
this project. And at this, thiswas when all of social media was
slowly coming on board. And Ifeel fortunate because I was
able to add these toolsgradually. And now I think, when
new writers sort of asked me foradvice, they see that I have all
these bells and whistles, and Ihave, you know, all these things
going on, and it seems sooverwhelming. How do you how do
(07:55):
you do that from the beginning.
And I was fortunate because Icould just add it piece by piece
by piece like, something's thisnew tool. Okay, what am I going
to do with this new tool? And,and also, I had the luxury of
time, so something like mynewsletter. Well, I have more
than a million subscribers to mynewsletter, but I've had my
newsletter for I don't even knowhow long I've had my newsletter.
(08:16):
Yeah, time immemorial, it feelslike that, of course, it's
changed tremendously over time.
But I but I've had that, that,that that start, you know, that
kind of compounding interestthat you get when you start
something early. And so So yeah,so I've just been gradually
adding tools. So I one point, Ithink about nine years ago, I
(08:40):
started having a podcast, that'sall that, you know, when I
started out as a writer, podcastdidn't even exist. So I didn't
think of myself as becoming apodcaster. Now that's a huge
part of my identity. Having anewsletter, I have a you know,
weekly newsletter, five thingsmaking me happy. That's a that's
a huge engine of happiness, ahuge part of my professional
(09:00):
identity. And then, of course,I'm still writing books all the
time. And then I do courses. NowI have paper products, like
journals and a card deck and theMuse machine, which is this
like, cool thing that I created.
So yeah, but I'm still at mycore a writer, but I have all
these new ways of connectingwith an audience around ideas.
Brad Ebenhoeh (09:26):
That's, that's awesome. It's interesting,
because you're talking abouteverything you did pre social
media when you started blogging.
And basically, it's a verysimilar concept what a lot of
folks do today on social media,they want to create, you know,
it's the chicken or egg, right?
Like do I started a businessthen find my customers or create
a community of prospectivecustomers, figure out what they
(09:47):
like connect with them, thensell a book or sell a service or
sell. So I feel like once youbuild that community, then you
connect with them. I think thatprobably makes it easier to sell
but also then iterate or doanother Project are in Apple
replicas, you understand whatthey need? And you're probably
getting a lot of consistentfeedback and communication from
them. Right?
Gretchen Rubin (10:05):
Well, the app, how did I forget my app? Yes.
Thank you for reminding me. Ialso have an app. Yes. I mean,
no. Right? Well, yes, it's veryfortunate. And one of the things
that's fortunate with me aboutmy subject is that it is the
subject where I can learn atremendous amount from other
people's observations, insights,examples, resources, I feel like
the world is my researchassistant. And if I'm curious
(10:27):
about like, Oh, does an idea, isthis like, my idiosyncratic
Quirk? Or is this something thatresonates with other people, I
can sort of test the idea out.
Now, when I was writing abiography of Winston Churchill,
I don't think that lends itselfquite so naturally, to that kind
of deep engagement. Butfortunately, not because I had
any great foresight, but justbecause I happen to be very,
very interested in happiness.
(10:50):
That was, that's my subject andjust sort of human nature,
generally, I guess, as my is mylarger subject. And that is
something where connecting withan audience does come very
naturally. And people have a lotto say. And there's a lot,
there's a lot to talk about,that lends itself to social
media and other, you know, otherkinds of technology platforms,
as well as ye old books are myfavorite. But I like the other
(11:16):
things, too.
Brad Ebenhoeh (11:17):
So was there. You know, as you move forward, your
journey sold, books created,communities kept going more and
more new books. Was there like apinch me moment, or like an I
made me moment, or I've made itmoment or anything that you
remember?
Gretchen Rubin (11:30):
Well, I was getting ready to do an event in
Seattle. And my editor called totell me that my book had hit
number one on the New York Timesbestseller list. And that is a
big dream as a writer, that isreally great. And so I remember
that moment very, very well. Butif there was a moment, that's
the most important it was reallygetting an agent because as I
said, that's what made me gofrom being just like somebody
(11:51):
was writing a book, and everytime to somebody who was really,
like, I felt like that I was on.
I say, the first rung, but it'sactually it's such an important
step. If you're a professionalwriter, to have an agent, it's
such a crucial step. It's like,the it's like rungs one through
10. So that was a really, reallyimportant moment as well.
Brad Ebenhoeh (12:13):
Awesome. And then, you know, as you again,
have been growing, you need tofocus creatively, right, and it
says, consistently stay aboveall the, the nuances in the
administrative tasks andeverything that's going on from
a business owner andentrepreneur, you know,
throughout your journey, how didyou over time, stay creative,
(12:34):
delegate tasks, hire people,like what was your process with
that, and as you build out yourteam, as you, you know, continue
to grow your business?
Gretchen Rubin (12:43):
Well, I really made a huge mistake. And I urge
other people to learn from mymistake, which is I waited way
too long. To put together ateam, it was really just me for
years and years and years, thenI had like one person who sort
of helped me she was she wasterrific. But she was doing way
too much work for one person.
And she was just sort ofexecuting on things that like
seem that were very fairly lowlevel. And then I hired someone
(13:07):
as the COO, and then she AnneMercogliano, and then she was so
outstanding that like that I waslike, Okay, let's make you CEO.
And then she was able, becausebecause I'm a writer, really
like I'm I'm a that's what I butshe's like a person, she's a
business person. So she was ableto say, these are the jobs to be
done this is if you want to takeit to the next level, and the
(13:31):
next level and the next leveland add these things to your
portfolio of things that you'recreating, these are the people
that you would need to hire inthis order. And this is how you
create the money that would payfor this team. And let's put the
systems in place because I wasjust very much like a DIY, you
know, I didn't have asophisticated system. And I paid
my taxes and everything. But itwas all very rudimentary,
(13:55):
because it was just me and kindof one other person, sort of.
And so it was really thatgetting that keeper. It's funny
that when I hired some I wasasking someone who's kind of
similar to me who had had, buthad gone way deeper into kind of
building out all her stuff. AndI was talking to her about this
problem. And she said, Well,I'll tell you why you'll hire
(14:17):
somebody. And the first thingthey'll say to you is now you
have to hire more people. And Iand that's exactly what
happened. Because the fact is,if you want to do a lot of
things really well, one personcan't do that. And I think the
thing is like I know what I doreally well and what I want to
do, and then there's otherthings that I would like to do
as part of that, but I don'thave the expertise to do them,
(14:39):
to do them to execute them. Idon't have the time to do them.
If I did them, I wouldn't bedoing them particularly well.
There are other people who coulddo those tasks much better than
I could much faster than Icould. And then that means that
I have more time to do what Iwanted to do which is like read
a book like Life in Five Senseswhere I am going to be doing a
(14:59):
lot of research and writing andthinking about the five senses,
which is something that only Ican do. But then if I want to,
like, you know, do a like do avideo, you know, for Instagram
about the wonders of Heinzketchup because it is one of the
rare foods that has the fivetastes of sweet, sour, salty,
(15:20):
bitter, and umami, then somebodycan like, put that together, I
tell them what to do, but it'smy idea. But somebody else can
can can get it over the line forme, which is an in a way that
would be much better than what Iwould do on my own. So that's,
it's really a delight to workwith a team. Now.
Brad Ebenhoeh (15:44):
It's an interesting tidbit on Heinz
ketchup,
Gretchen Rubin (15:47):
I am the biggest fan, everybody dismissive, we've
all got packs with Heinzketchup, like lying around
everywhere, right? But I gohome, put like one taste on your
tongue. really notice the way ittastes. And you will be
astonished by how sophisticatedand rich it is, if you can find
all five tastes, it's that's whyit's the secret ingredient in so
(16:07):
many food and why so many peoplelove it, like some huge
percentage of Americans haveHeinz ketchup in their
refrigerator. Because it's thisextraordinary, it's this
extraordinary concoction. It'svery rare, very hard to get all
five, some get all four, like amargarita, it's all four. But
it's hard to get all five, ifyou're not like a combo like
(16:30):
apple pie with cheddar cheese,something like that. That's just
kind of cheating, right? There'sa lot going on there. Ketchup is
ketchup.
Brad Ebenhoeh (16:38):
So you've been doing this for a while, you
know, writing about happinessand different themes and
everything that we're talkingabout here. How is like society,
not how society changed sinceyou started to where it is now
in terms of maybe just generalhappiness, not how people
consume what you're doing. Weall understand reading versus
internet and all this stuff, butjust general, like, Are people
(17:01):
happier? Are people not happier?
I mean, do you have a gauge onthat?
Gretchen Rubin (17:04):
Well, there's a lot of ways to analyze that it
depends on your time horizon.
And then you know, everybodytook a big hit after the
pandemic, because that's such asuch a disruption. Um, so you
know, it's interesting for mewhat I'm interested in, I'm not
interested in like, like, trendsor societal trends, or like, Are
you happier if you live in theUnited States? Are you happier?
(17:28):
If you live in Japan? Like, thatis not what I'm interested in.
I'm interested in Brad. Ifyou're Brad, what are the things
today, tomorrow, next week, nextmonth, are the things that you
can do within your consciousthoughts and actions without
taking a lot of time, energy ormoney that would be likely to
make you happier, whatever thatmeans for you. Because some
(17:49):
people are like, it's peace,contentment, satisfaction, joy,
bliss, like, whatever it is foryou. What can you do with your
conscious thoughts and actionsthat will help to make you
happier? And so I'm very focusedon like, the what's within the
individual's control? And so theidea of like, well, but what if
Brad, were Brad in 1975? Whatwould that be like? Well, gets
(18:10):
complicated. What about this?
What about that? Or, you know,Brad living in Costa Rica? Well,
it's like, well, this or that,you know, what if Brad were
honest. Well, you could saythis, you could say that. These
are questions that are wildlyinteresting to many people.
There's a huge amount ofacademic research into these
(18:30):
things. But I just have to say,for my purposes, I'm very
interested in the individual,like, what can I do on my own?
I'm not saying that the otherstuff isn't important that
institutions and organizationsand even nations and cultures
don't play an enormous role theydo. Of course, they play an
enormous role. But they're notsomething that we can like
change today. And I'm like, whatcan you do this week? So that's
(18:53):
what I focus on. And I thinkjust for just about everybody,
there is a lot of low hangingfruit of things that we can do
without spending a lot of timeor energy, it's just part of our
ordinary day, to make ushappier. And, and so that's, and
I think, I think that is verymanageable and possible, not for
everyone of course, and not inall seasons of life. We go
(19:14):
through periods of our lifewhere we're not happy and we
probably wouldn't even seek tobe happy. It's not appropriate
to be happier. But a lot oftimes we can.
Brad Ebenhoeh (19:24):
Yeah, that rings true to me just from you know,
even your journey from corporateand corporate from you know,
being a clerk, but working andthen moving on to your own path
and your passion. My journey ofcorporate world being just not
happy and then freeing myselfand the power of the individual
and the power of theconsciousness of doing little
(19:44):
things like to your pointhanging around with different
people going on walks, you know,moving to a warmer climate
place, or whatever it is thatkind of over time it does feel
like things just add up and overtime you just become more
positive, more happier and moreLike seems to kind of, you know,
roll more organically that way.
So definitely rings true to mein terms of just, you know, the
(20:05):
little things you can do youknow, you can move forward in
your life and your journey.
Yeah. All right, as we kind ofgo here and wrap everything up,
what do you have in your horizonmoving forward outside of the 86
things that you have going onanything new, anything, you
know, exciting, outside ofeverything you got going on on
(20:26):
your website and your socialmedia and everything?
Gretchen Rubin (20:28):
Well, one of the one of the things that I talk
about a lot on that on thepodcast, Happier with Gretchen
Rubin is how we have to knowourselves. Because when we know
ourselves better than we canshape our lives to be happier.
So I love quizzes, and I'vecreated some really interesting
quizzes to help people knowthemselves better. And that's
been really fun. Because itturns out people love a self
(20:48):
knowledge quiz. And so I get somany people that are like, love
these quizzes. So if people likea quiz I have, I have a quiz
that will tell you, I have apersonality framework that
divides people into upholders,questioners, obligers, rebels,
so you can take that at Gretchenrubin.com/quiz You can find out
what's your most neglected senseand your most appreciated sense
(21:09):
that comes that's from researchthat came out of my book Life in
Five Senses, also a Gretchenrubin.com/quiz. I have a quiz
that is about if you becausepeople want to be like, I want
to be happier. But I don't knowwhere to start. There's so many
things I want to work on or likewhat should I do first? So this
is the quiz that will tell youwhat should you Brad do first
(21:31):
now should not what should onedo first? But given Brad? And
how Brad answers the question,what should Brad do first? And
that's the Habits for Happinessquiz. Also Gretchen
rubin.com/quiz. So this issomething that's really fun. I'm
getting ready to do another onebased on design your summer. For
people who are wanting, youknow, like, we're coming up on
(21:53):
the summertime. And for peoplewho want to get more from their
summer, I think a lot of timeswe have all these, these kind of
plans and expectations forsummer. And then like you, you
blink an eye and it's over andyou're like, wait, we were gonna
go on picnics. And we were gonnago to the state fair. And we
were going to do that new hike,and we were gonna go to the lake
and it's like, okay, if youdon't, if you don't design your
summer, none of that happens. Sothis is a quiz that's going to
(22:14):
help with that. So if peoplelike quizzes, go to the quiz.
And, and then I'm also workingon a little book that's called
Secrets of Adulthood. That's allabout its aphorisms, sort of
one, like big ideas and a fewwords about all the lessons that
I've learned about abouthappiness and human nature. And
(22:34):
so that will probably come outnext spring. So I'm working on
that. And then the paperback oflife advice census is just
coming out. So that's really,it's always really fun to have a
paperback out. A lot of peopledon't like to buy hard backs,
they're like buy paperbacks. Sothe paperback is coming out now
for the people who, who wantthat version of the book.
Brad Ebenhoeh (22:52):
Well, but I'm gonna take a quiz or two here
after the chat. I'm veryinterested in I love how you're
like customizing it to theactual individual taking the
quiz. That's always, that'salways helpful. So as we wrap up
this interview slash podcasthere, we typically end with two
questions from a small businessperspective. So for you know,
(23:12):
you talk about small businessowners out there, what does one
do or recommendation from yourjourney of being an entrepreneur
that you provide to them?
Gretchen Rubin (23:23):
I would say ask for help. I like I don't know
why it's so hard to ask forhelp. Or sometimes you don't
even realize that you need help,or that you're facing a problem.
But so often, I found thatwhenever I would ask for help.
You know, there's an old saying,when the student is ready, the
teacher appears and for theteacher to appear, you kind of
have to articulate what it isthat you want to learn. And so I
(23:45):
would just say, like, really tryto understand like, what's the
problem? What do you need? Ithink that's part of why I
didn't get a team is I didn'treally articulate to myself,
just really how frustrated andlimited I was, so I didn't ask
for help sooner. And if I hadasked for help, I think I would
have I would have made that thattransition. sooner and more
(24:06):
easily.
Brad Ebenhoeh (24:08):
Yeah, it is interesting in terms of the
prospective clients or businessowners I talked to how like
embarrassed or ashamed they areabout their accounting or
bookkeeping or tax, like, hey,that's why we're here. Like,
we're here to help if you haveit down I wouldn't have a
business so whatever question oranything you need, there's
people out there that areexperts or can help you. And
(24:28):
then what is one, you know,don't don't do as a business
owner.
Gretchen Rubin (24:32):
Okay this is gonna sound like you planted
this with me and told me to saythis, but I promise you we have
not discussed this before. I amnot slacking. But I'm just
saying like this is whysomething like Accountfully is
so important. Don't But thelarger point I would say is
don't create messy systems.
Don't assume yourself. Oh, I'msuch it's just little teeny tiny
old me. It doesn't matter if Idon't have like an official
(24:53):
password keeper and I just writeit down on a little piece of
paper. For or I don't havecopyright clearances for these
photos, but it won't matter.
Because, you know, no one's evergoing to look at my blog, or I
don't have, you know, oh, yeah,maybe I should be playing this
taxes, but are they ever reallygoing to come looking for it?
(25:15):
Or, you know, I'm not keepingtrack of all of the, you know,
my contacts, but I can alwaysjust like flip through my texts
and find it. It's like, createsystems, maintain systems, and
keep them as early and as cleanas possible, because so often, I
have just been like, oh, mygosh, if I had set this up
properly, at the beginning, itwould be so much easier. Or if
(25:37):
the minute that I realized thatthere was a problem, I had kind
of like stopped and said, atleast going forward, let's clean
this clean. And maybe we'll goback at some point and clean up
the beginning. But just sort oftelling yourself, Oh, this is
fine. This is doesn't matter, Ican just kind of like use some
scotch tape and chewing gum andit'll be fine. The province
that's very limiting. And as yougrow these systems, like, you
(25:57):
know, it's like if you're, ifyou're assuming that those will
always be satisfactory, you'rejust assuming that you will
never grow. And that's, thenthat's too bad. So you set
yourself up for growth, make iteasy to grow. By having systems
that are robust. I learned thatthe hard way too.
Brad Ebenhoeh (26:13):
I love it. I love it. That's definitely how how my
mind operates is process systemworkflow. So that's definitely
helped us grow. And I thinkthat's a huge recommendation to
everybody out there. And it'snever been easier with all the
tools and the apps andeverything. But it's also you
can be the hardest because it'sjust to your point in text
messages.
Gretchen Rubin (26:34):
Yeah, you just throw everything in a Google Doc
and it's like, okay, at somepoint that's going to become a
hot mess.
Brad Ebenhoeh (26:41):
Well Gretchen This was awesome. Thanks again,
so much for your time and yourinformation and knowledge and
just sharing your experience andyour journey. This has been
awesome. Once again, GretchenRubin, the Accountfully Chat.
Hope y'all enjoy. Take care.
Gretchen Rubin (26:55):
Thanks.
Welcome to the Accountfully chat another
episode here this week today wehave Gretchen Rubin, New York
Times best selling author.
How're you doing today,Gretchen?
Gretchen Rubin (00:17):
Pretty good. I'm very happy to be talking to you.
Brad Ebenhoeh (00:20):
Yes. And we're very excited that you're here
chatting with us today. Soyou've been a client of
Accountfully for several years.
And it's been great working withyou and your team. On a lot of
aspects from accounting andtaxes. But really, we want to
focus on your journey, becominga creative and an author as well
as then you know, how you'vegrown a business and what
systems and processes you put inplace today. So before we get
(00:42):
started, can we get a backgroundof kind of where you came from,
you know, where, how you decidedto become an author and all
those things there.
Gretchen Rubin (00:52):
Well, I started my career in law, I went to law
school, and then I was actuallyclerking for Supreme Court
Justice Sandra Day O'Connor,when I decided that I wanted to
be a writer. I started out byhaving an idea for a book before
I even thought about beingwriting that book, I was going
(01:12):
for a walk on Capitol Hill oneday, during my lunch hour. And I
thought to myself, well, what amI interested in that everybody
in the world is interested in,and I thought, well, power,
money, fame, sex. And it waslike power, money, fame, sex.
And I just ran out and startedresearching those subjects,
which to me felt very tiedtogether. And this is something
(01:33):
that has happened to me eversince I was very young, I'll get
intensely interested insomething and do a huge amount
of research and writing and notetaking. So that was a very
familiar process for me. Butwith this project, it just got
bigger and bigger and bigger.
And finally, I thought, well,this is the kind of thing people
would do if they were going towrite a book. And then I
thought, well, you know, maybe Icould write that book. And so I
(01:55):
went to the bookstore and got abook called "How to Write and
Sell Your Non-Fiction BookProposal|". And I pretty much
just followed the directions.
But you know, I was fortunatebecause it one point I thought,
you know, at this point, I'drather fail as a writer than
succeed as a lawyer. I didn'treally know what I wanted to do
(02:17):
in law, but I very much wantedto write this book. It wasn't
even that I just wanted to be awriter, I wanted to write this
book. So it was sort of like,okay, well, let me take my shot,
I'll succeed or fail. And thenI'll figure out what to do next.
And fortunately for me, I got anagent. And that was indeed my
first book. So so it all workedout, which makes it sound much
easier than it was, but thatthat's how I became a writer.
Brad Ebenhoeh (02:40):
That's, that's an awesome story. Did you while you
were writing the book, and andfollowing the steps in the
instructions of that book thatyou bought, were you still
working at the law firm? Or didyou like quick cut it off, or
kind of what did that processare, I
Gretchen Rubin (02:54):
Well I actually never worked at a law firm. So I
was clerking. I was clerking onthe Supreme Court. So I did
that. Then I went to go work atthe Federal Communications
Commission, I was a senioradviser there. So I was sort of,
you know, in, in the governmentdoing that. And so I would still
be doing the work, you know, onthe weekends at night and my
free time. And then, so, myhusband, I were living in DC,
(03:18):
and we decided we wanted to moveback to New York. And at that
time, he decided to switchfrom–we met in law school–he
decided to switch from law intofinance. And I decided to try to
get an agent. And so that's whenI started, I sort of started
full time, trying to be awriter. And that's why getting
an agent was so exciting,because I felt like getting an
(03:39):
agent made me a professional,sort of, because somebody was
investing in me by giving metheir time. And if you're an
agent, your time is your money.
And so that was a reallyimportant step for me. And at
that time, I, that was just atthe time, when I had really gone
to be I didn't at that time havea full time job. But for most of
that period, I was working fulltime in one way or another.
Brad Ebenhoeh (04:04):
Was there any point in the journey when you
were basically all in with theagent writing your book, no job
where you were like, Oh, Imessed up, I need to go
backwards and start over Are youjust kind of, you know, moving
forward?
Gretchen Rubin (04:17):
I was pretty much moving forward, I had a
very clear sense of what Iwanted to do, and it was
unfolding. But of course, I wasfortunate that I was married. I
think anytime that like there'stwo of you, it's a lot easier to
take a risk because you've gotthat buffer. So I feel fortunate
that you know, I wasn't just youknow, out there hanging solo as
I was making this big jump.
Brad Ebenhoeh (04:38):
So then as you move forward in that journey,
and you know, your book gotpublished and all that aspect,
how did all that unfold overtime in terms of Alright, I've
made it or I have a book nowwhat's next? Now I need to build
a team out, a business, youknow, how did all the that like
process and your mindset workand what those aspects
Gretchen Rubin (04:59):
Well It's interesting because my time as a
writer has really overlappedwith just immense changes in the
world of writing, the world ofthe media, the world, the way
that people communicate ideas.
And so because my, I'm bestknown probably for my book, The
Happiness Project, and you knowwhat a lot of a lot of people
assume that was my first book.
But of course, like many people,I worked very hard for 10 years
(05:22):
to then become an overnightsensation. And what happened
with the hat, what what happenedwith the Happiness Project was
the book that I wrote before,that was called 40 ways to look
at JFK. And this was a book thatI loved. And if you have a book
that flops, what they tell youin publishing, as they say, your
book didn't find its audience.
That means your book was a bigfailure. So my book did not find
(05:43):
its audience. And what thatreally got me convinced of was
that I needed to have my own wayto reach an audience. Because I
was convinced that there weremany people who would be
interested in my book, there wasan audience for the book, but
they were not finding it.
Because at that time, you had togo through, you know, TV and
(06:05):
book reviewers and all this. AndI really thought, wow, I wish I
had my own way to communicatewith readers or people that I
think would be interested in mysubject. And that was right when
blogging was becoming somethingthat a person who was not very
tech savvy could do. So Istarted a blog. I was then
beginning work on the book thatbecame the Happiness Project.
(06:25):
And I thought, Okay, well, I'lldo a blog alongside that one of
the one of the things I neededto test that Happiness Project
is all my experiments and how tobe happier. And one of the
things I needed to experimentwith is doing something that was
novel and challenging. So Ithought, well, something novel
and challenging would be tostart a blog, because I have no
idea what that was. I've neverwritten short form like that.
I'm not tech savvy. You know,writing every day sounds
(06:49):
incredibly challenging. But Iwas like, Okay, I got to do it.
It's part of the the experimentsof the Happiness Project. So I
did it. And that was a huge,that was a huge engine of
happiness for me. And it was away to connect with people about
my subject before the book evenhit. And so then when the book
came out, there were a lot ofpeople that I was already in
communication with, and I couldtell them about the book. And
(07:11):
so, you know, you never know, ifit's good news or bad news when
something happens. And for me,the failure of the 40 ways to
look at JFK was reallyfortunate, because I think if
that book had been, had evenbeen a mediocre success, I
wouldn't have thought, Okay, Ineed to be able to connect with
readers myself, I would havejust thought, Okay, this system
(07:33):
works for me. And so then itworked great. So then I did have
this project. And at this, thiswas when all of social media was
slowly coming on board. And Ifeel fortunate because I was
able to add these toolsgradually. And now I think, when
new writers sort of asked me foradvice, they see that I have all
these bells and whistles, and Ihave, you know, all these things
going on, and it seems sooverwhelming. How do you how do
(07:55):
you do that from the beginning.
And I was fortunate because Icould just add it piece by piece
by piece like, something's thisnew tool. Okay, what am I going
to do with this new tool? And,and also, I had the luxury of
time, so something like mynewsletter. Well, I have more
than a million subscribers to mynewsletter, but I've had my
newsletter for I don't even knowhow long I've had my newsletter.
(08:16):
Yeah, time immemorial, it feelslike that, of course, it's
changed tremendously over time.
But I but I've had that, that,that that start, you know, that
kind of compounding interestthat you get when you start
something early. And so So yeah,so I've just been gradually
adding tools. So I one point, Ithink about nine years ago, I
(08:40):
started having a podcast, that'sall that, you know, when I
started out as a writer, podcastdidn't even exist. So I didn't
think of myself as becoming apodcaster. Now that's a huge
part of my identity. Having anewsletter, I have a you know,
weekly newsletter, five thingsmaking me happy. That's a that's
a huge engine of happiness, ahuge part of my professional
(09:00):
identity. And then, of course,I'm still writing books all the
time. And then I do courses. NowI have paper products, like
journals and a card deck and theMuse machine, which is this
like, cool thing that I created.
So yeah, but I'm still at mycore a writer, but I have all
these new ways of connectingwith an audience around ideas.
Brad Ebenhoeh (09:26):
That's, that's awesome. It's interesting,
because you're talking abouteverything you did pre social
media when you started blogging.
And basically, it's a verysimilar concept what a lot of
folks do today on social media,they want to create, you know,
it's the chicken or egg, right?
Like do I started a businessthen find my customers or create
a community of prospectivecustomers, figure out what they
(09:47):
like connect with them, thensell a book or sell a service or
sell. So I feel like once youbuild that community, then you
connect with them. I think thatprobably makes it easier to sell
but also then iterate or doanother Project are in Apple
replicas, you understand whatthey need? And you're probably
getting a lot of consistentfeedback and communication from
them. Right?
Gretchen Rubin (10:05):
Well, the app, how did I forget my app? Yes.
Thank you for reminding me. Ialso have an app. Yes. I mean,
no. Right? Well, yes, it's veryfortunate. And one of the things
that's fortunate with me aboutmy subject is that it is the
subject where I can learn atremendous amount from other
people's observations, insights,examples, resources, I feel like
the world is my researchassistant. And if I'm curious
(10:27):
about like, Oh, does an idea, isthis like, my idiosyncratic
Quirk? Or is this something thatresonates with other people, I
can sort of test the idea out.
Now, when I was writing abiography of Winston Churchill,
I don't think that lends itselfquite so naturally, to that kind
of deep engagement. Butfortunately, not because I had
any great foresight, but justbecause I happen to be very,
very interested in happiness.
(10:50):
That was, that's my subject andjust sort of human nature,
generally, I guess, as my is mylarger subject. And that is
something where connecting withan audience does come very
naturally. And people have a lotto say. And there's a lot,
there's a lot to talk about,that lends itself to social
media and other, you know, otherkinds of technology platforms,
as well as ye old books are myfavorite. But I like the other
(11:16):
things, too.
Brad Ebenhoeh (11:17):
So was there. You know, as you move forward, your
journey sold, books created,communities kept going more and
more new books. Was there like apinch me moment, or like an I
made me moment, or I've made itmoment or anything that you
remember?
Gretchen Rubin (11:30):
Well, I was getting ready to do an event in
Seattle. And my editor called totell me that my book had hit
number one on the New York Timesbestseller list. And that is a
big dream as a writer, that isreally great. And so I remember
that moment very, very well. Butif there was a moment, that's
the most important it was reallygetting an agent because as I
said, that's what made me gofrom being just like somebody
(11:51):
was writing a book, and everytime to somebody who was really,
like, I felt like that I was on.
I say, the first rung, but it'sactually it's such an important
step. If you're a professionalwriter, to have an agent, it's
such a crucial step. It's like,the it's like rungs one through
10. So that was a really, reallyimportant moment as well.
Brad Ebenhoeh (12:13):
Awesome. And then, you know, as you again,
have been growing, you need tofocus creatively, right, and it
says, consistently stay aboveall the, the nuances in the
administrative tasks andeverything that's going on from
a business owner andentrepreneur, you know,
throughout your journey, how didyou over time, stay creative,
(12:34):
delegate tasks, hire people,like what was your process with
that, and as you build out yourteam, as you, you know, continue
to grow your business?
Gretchen Rubin (12:43):
Well, I really made a huge mistake. And I urge
other people to learn from mymistake, which is I waited way
too long. To put together ateam, it was really just me for
years and years and years, thenI had like one person who sort
of helped me she was she wasterrific. But she was doing way
too much work for one person.
And she was just sort ofexecuting on things that like
seem that were very fairly lowlevel. And then I hired someone
(13:07):
as the COO, and then she AnneMercogliano, and then she was so
outstanding that like that I waslike, Okay, let's make you CEO.
And then she was able, becausebecause I'm a writer, really
like I'm I'm a that's what I butshe's like a person, she's a
business person. So she was ableto say, these are the jobs to be
done this is if you want to takeit to the next level, and the
(13:31):
next level and the next leveland add these things to your
portfolio of things that you'recreating, these are the people
that you would need to hire inthis order. And this is how you
create the money that would payfor this team. And let's put the
systems in place because I wasjust very much like a DIY, you
know, I didn't have asophisticated system. And I paid
my taxes and everything. But itwas all very rudimentary,
(13:55):
because it was just me and kindof one other person, sort of.
And so it was really thatgetting that keeper. It's funny
that when I hired some I wasasking someone who's kind of
similar to me who had had, buthad gone way deeper into kind of
building out all her stuff. AndI was talking to her about this
problem. And she said, Well,I'll tell you why you'll hire
(14:17):
somebody. And the first thingthey'll say to you is now you
have to hire more people. And Iand that's exactly what
happened. Because the fact is,if you want to do a lot of
things really well, one personcan't do that. And I think the
thing is like I know what I doreally well and what I want to
do, and then there's otherthings that I would like to do
as part of that, but I don'thave the expertise to do them,
(14:39):
to do them to execute them. Idon't have the time to do them.
If I did them, I wouldn't bedoing them particularly well.
There are other people who coulddo those tasks much better than
I could much faster than Icould. And then that means that
I have more time to do what Iwanted to do which is like read
a book like Life in Five Senseswhere I am going to be doing a
(14:59):
lot of research and writing andthinking about the five senses,
which is something that only Ican do. But then if I want to,
like, you know, do a like do avideo, you know, for Instagram
about the wonders of Heinzketchup because it is one of the
rare foods that has the fivetastes of sweet, sour, salty,
(15:20):
bitter, and umami, then somebodycan like, put that together, I
tell them what to do, but it'smy idea. But somebody else can
can can get it over the line forme, which is an in a way that
would be much better than what Iwould do on my own. So that's,
it's really a delight to workwith a team. Now.
Brad Ebenhoeh (15:44):
It's an interesting tidbit on Heinz
ketchup,
Gretchen Rubin (15:47):
I am the biggest fan, everybody dismissive, we've
all got packs with Heinzketchup, like lying around
everywhere, right? But I gohome, put like one taste on your
tongue. really notice the way ittastes. And you will be
astonished by how sophisticatedand rich it is, if you can find
all five tastes, it's that's whyit's the secret ingredient in so
(16:07):
many food and why so many peoplelove it, like some huge
percentage of Americans haveHeinz ketchup in their
refrigerator. Because it's thisextraordinary, it's this
extraordinary concoction. It'svery rare, very hard to get all
five, some get all four, like amargarita, it's all four. But
it's hard to get all five, ifyou're not like a combo like
(16:30):
apple pie with cheddar cheese,something like that. That's just
kind of cheating, right? There'sa lot going on there. Ketchup is
ketchup.
Brad Ebenhoeh (16:38):
So you've been doing this for a while, you
know, writing about happinessand different themes and
everything that we're talkingabout here. How is like society,
not how society changed sinceyou started to where it is now
in terms of maybe just generalhappiness, not how people
consume what you're doing. Weall understand reading versus
internet and all this stuff, butjust general, like, Are people
(17:01):
happier? Are people not happier?
I mean, do you have a gauge onthat?
Gretchen Rubin (17:04):
Well, there's a lot of ways to analyze that it
depends on your time horizon.
And then you know, everybodytook a big hit after the
pandemic, because that's such asuch a disruption. Um, so you
know, it's interesting for mewhat I'm interested in, I'm not
interested in like, like, trendsor societal trends, or like, Are
you happier if you live in theUnited States? Are you happier?
(17:28):
If you live in Japan? Like, thatis not what I'm interested in.
I'm interested in Brad. Ifyou're Brad, what are the things
today, tomorrow, next week, nextmonth, are the things that you
can do within your consciousthoughts and actions without
taking a lot of time, energy ormoney that would be likely to
make you happier, whatever thatmeans for you. Because some
(17:49):
people are like, it's peace,contentment, satisfaction, joy,
bliss, like, whatever it is foryou. What can you do with your
conscious thoughts and actionsthat will help to make you
happier? And so I'm very focusedon like, the what's within the
individual's control? And so theidea of like, well, but what if
Brad, were Brad in 1975? Whatwould that be like? Well, gets
(18:10):
complicated. What about this?
What about that? Or, you know,Brad living in Costa Rica? Well,
it's like, well, this or that,you know, what if Brad were
honest. Well, you could saythis, you could say that. These
are questions that are wildlyinteresting to many people.
There's a huge amount ofacademic research into these
(18:30):
things. But I just have to say,for my purposes, I'm very
interested in the individual,like, what can I do on my own?
I'm not saying that the otherstuff isn't important that
institutions and organizationsand even nations and cultures
don't play an enormous role theydo. Of course, they play an
enormous role. But they're notsomething that we can like
change today. And I'm like, whatcan you do this week? So that's
(18:53):
what I focus on. And I thinkjust for just about everybody,
there is a lot of low hangingfruit of things that we can do
without spending a lot of timeor energy, it's just part of our
ordinary day, to make ushappier. And, and so that's, and
I think, I think that is verymanageable and possible, not for
everyone of course, and not inall seasons of life. We go
(19:14):
through periods of our lifewhere we're not happy and we
probably wouldn't even seek tobe happy. It's not appropriate
to be happier. But a lot oftimes we can.
Brad Ebenhoeh (19:24):
Yeah, that rings true to me just from you know,
even your journey from corporateand corporate from you know,
being a clerk, but working andthen moving on to your own path
and your passion. My journey ofcorporate world being just not
happy and then freeing myselfand the power of the individual
and the power of theconsciousness of doing little
(19:44):
things like to your pointhanging around with different
people going on walks, you know,moving to a warmer climate
place, or whatever it is thatkind of over time it does feel
like things just add up and overtime you just become more
positive, more happier and moreLike seems to kind of, you know,
roll more organically that way.
So definitely rings true to mein terms of just, you know, the
(20:05):
little things you can do youknow, you can move forward in
your life and your journey.
Yeah. All right, as we kind ofgo here and wrap everything up,
what do you have in your horizonmoving forward outside of the 86
things that you have going onanything new, anything, you
know, exciting, outside ofeverything you got going on on
(20:26):
your website and your socialmedia and everything?
Gretchen Rubin (20:28):
Well, one of the one of the things that I talk
about a lot on that on thepodcast, Happier with Gretchen
Rubin is how we have to knowourselves. Because when we know
ourselves better than we canshape our lives to be happier.
So I love quizzes, and I'vecreated some really interesting
quizzes to help people knowthemselves better. And that's
been really fun. Because itturns out people love a self
(20:48):
knowledge quiz. And so I get somany people that are like, love
these quizzes. So if people likea quiz I have, I have a quiz
that will tell you, I have apersonality framework that
divides people into upholders,questioners, obligers, rebels,
so you can take that at Gretchenrubin.com/quiz You can find out
what's your most neglected senseand your most appreciated sense
(21:09):
that comes that's from researchthat came out of my book Life in
Five Senses, also a Gretchenrubin.com/quiz. I have a quiz
that is about if you becausepeople want to be like, I want
to be happier. But I don't knowwhere to start. There's so many
things I want to work on or likewhat should I do first? So this
is the quiz that will tell youwhat should you Brad do first
(21:31):
now should not what should onedo first? But given Brad? And
how Brad answers the question,what should Brad do first? And
that's the Habits for Happinessquiz. Also Gretchen
rubin.com/quiz. So this issomething that's really fun. I'm
getting ready to do another onebased on design your summer. For
people who are wanting, youknow, like, we're coming up on
(21:53):
the summertime. And for peoplewho want to get more from their
summer, I think a lot of timeswe have all these, these kind of
plans and expectations forsummer. And then like you, you
blink an eye and it's over andyou're like, wait, we were gonna
go on picnics. And we were gonnago to the state fair. And we
were going to do that new hike,and we were gonna go to the lake
and it's like, okay, if youdon't, if you don't design your
summer, none of that happens. Sothis is a quiz that's going to
(22:14):
help with that. So if peoplelike quizzes, go to the quiz.
And, and then I'm also workingon a little book that's called
Secrets of Adulthood. That's allabout its aphorisms, sort of
one, like big ideas and a fewwords about all the lessons that
I've learned about abouthappiness and human nature. And
(22:34):
so that will probably come outnext spring. So I'm working on
that. And then the paperback oflife advice census is just
coming out. So that's really,it's always really fun to have a
paperback out. A lot of peopledon't like to buy hard backs,
they're like buy paperbacks. Sothe paperback is coming out now
for the people who, who wantthat version of the book.
Brad Ebenhoeh (22:52):
Well, but I'm gonna take a quiz or two here
after the chat. I'm veryinterested in I love how you're
like customizing it to theactual individual taking the
quiz. That's always, that'salways helpful. So as we wrap up
this interview slash podcasthere, we typically end with two
questions from a small businessperspective. So for you know,
(23:12):
you talk about small businessowners out there, what does one
do or recommendation from yourjourney of being an entrepreneur
that you provide to them?
Gretchen Rubin (23:23):
I would say ask for help. I like I don't know
why it's so hard to ask forhelp. Or sometimes you don't
even realize that you need help,or that you're facing a problem.
But so often, I found thatwhenever I would ask for help.
You know, there's an old saying,when the student is ready, the
teacher appears and for theteacher to appear, you kind of
have to articulate what it isthat you want to learn. And so I
(23:45):
would just say, like, really tryto understand like, what's the
problem? What do you need? Ithink that's part of why I
didn't get a team is I didn'treally articulate to myself,
just really how frustrated andlimited I was, so I didn't ask
for help sooner. And if I hadasked for help, I think I would
have I would have made that thattransition. sooner and more
(24:06):
easily.
Brad Ebenhoeh (24:08):
Yeah, it is interesting in terms of the
prospective clients or businessowners I talked to how like
embarrassed or ashamed they areabout their accounting or
bookkeeping or tax, like, hey,that's why we're here. Like,
we're here to help if you haveit down I wouldn't have a
business so whatever question oranything you need, there's
people out there that areexperts or can help you. And
(24:28):
then what is one, you know,don't don't do as a business
owner.
Gretchen Rubin (24:32):
Okay this is gonna sound like you planted
this with me and told me to saythis, but I promise you we have
not discussed this before. I amnot slacking. But I'm just
saying like this is whysomething like Accountfully is
so important. Don't But thelarger point I would say is
don't create messy systems.
Don't assume yourself. Oh, I'msuch it's just little teeny tiny
old me. It doesn't matter if Idon't have like an official
(24:53):
password keeper and I just writeit down on a little piece of
paper. For or I don't havecopyright clearances for these
photos, but it won't matter.
Because, you know, no one's evergoing to look at my blog, or I
don't have, you know, oh, yeah,maybe I should be playing this
taxes, but are they ever reallygoing to come looking for it?
(25:15):
Or, you know, I'm not keepingtrack of all of the, you know,
my contacts, but I can alwaysjust like flip through my texts
and find it. It's like, createsystems, maintain systems, and
keep them as early and as cleanas possible, because so often, I
have just been like, oh, mygosh, if I had set this up
properly, at the beginning, itwould be so much easier. Or if
(25:37):
the minute that I realized thatthere was a problem, I had kind
of like stopped and said, atleast going forward, let's clean
this clean. And maybe we'll goback at some point and clean up
the beginning. But just sort oftelling yourself, Oh, this is
fine. This is doesn't matter, Ican just kind of like use some
scotch tape and chewing gum andit'll be fine. The province
that's very limiting. And as yougrow these systems, like, you
(25:57):
know, it's like if you're, ifyou're assuming that those will
always be satisfactory, you'rejust assuming that you will
never grow. And that's, thenthat's too bad. So you set
yourself up for growth, make iteasy to grow. By having systems
that are robust. I learned thatthe hard way too.
Brad Ebenhoeh (26:13):
I love it. I love it. That's definitely how how my
mind operates is process systemworkflow. So that's definitely
helped us grow. And I thinkthat's a huge recommendation to
everybody out there. And it'snever been easier with all the
tools and the apps andeverything. But it's also you
can be the hardest because it'sjust to your point in text
messages.
Gretchen Rubin (26:34):
Yeah, you just throw everything in a Google Doc
and it's like, okay, at somepoint that's going to become a
hot mess.
Brad Ebenhoeh (26:41):
Well Gretchen This was awesome. Thanks again,
so much for your time and yourinformation and knowledge and
just sharing your experience andyour journey. This has been
awesome. Once again, GretchenRubin, the Accountfully Chat.
Hope y'all enjoy. Take care.
Gretchen Rubin (26:55):
Thanks.
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