August 6, 2024 • 59 mins
Join us as we sit down with Cass Fleming, a dedicated new hunter from Victoria. From her first adrenaline-pumping shot on a Sambar hind to featuring as a cover girl on an unusually pro hunting article written by the ABC, Cass shares her fascinating journey into the world of hunting. Our conversation kicks off with a memorable tale of our initial meeting at Nundle State Forest during the Australian Hunters Club annual camp, spiced up by an unexpected car trouble and a collaborative fix involving the whole group. Cass's recent feature in an ABC article spotlights her passion and the growing community of new hunters in Victoria, shedding light on the positive portrayal of hunting in the media.
Dive deeper into the evolving dynamics of the hunting community as Cass discusses continuous learning and the value of respect among peers. We explore the nuances of hunting etiquette and the shift towards a more open, collaborative environment fostered by social media and modern resources. Cass's story highlights the camaraderie and mutual support within the hunting world, emphasizing the importance of building friendships and sharing experiences. We also tackle how to normalize hunting activities and make them more approachable to the public, particularly through sharing game meat in familiar forms like sausage rolls.
In a candid chat, we navigate the challenges and triumphs of being a woman in predominantly male-dominated hunting spaces. Cass opens up about the significance of self-confidence and personal responsibility in feeling included, and reflects on the role of media in challenging stereotypes of female hunters. We round off the episode with practical insights into field butchering, choosing the right hunting rifles, and the logistics of transporting meat post-hunt. Whether you're a seasoned hunter or curious about the lifestyle, this episode offers a comprehensive look at the motivations, challenges, and community spirit that drive the hunting world.
Dive deeper into the evolving dynamics of the hunting community as Cass discusses continuous learning and the value of respect among peers. We explore the nuances of hunting etiquette and the shift towards a more open, collaborative environment fostered by social media and modern resources. Cass's story highlights the camaraderie and mutual support within the hunting world, emphasizing the importance of building friendships and sharing experiences. We also tackle how to normalize hunting activities and make them more approachable to the public, particularly through sharing game meat in familiar forms like sausage rolls.
In a candid chat, we navigate the challenges and triumphs of being a woman in predominantly male-dominated hunting spaces. Cass opens up about the significance of self-confidence and personal responsibility in feeling included, and reflects on the role of media in challenging stereotypes of female hunters. We round off the episode with practical insights into field butchering, choosing the right hunting rifles, and the logistics of transporting meat post-hunt. Whether you're a seasoned hunter or curious about the lifestyle, this episode offers a comprehensive look at the motivations, challenges, and community spirit that drive the hunting world.
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If you have a question, comment, topic, gear review suggestion or a guest that you'd like to hear on the show, shoot an email to accuratehunts@gmail.com or via our socials.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Cass Fleming (00:07):
Music.
I guess just how you conductyourself Everything before
pulling the trigger, and theneverything after as well.
I'd never butchered an animalbefore, or didn't know sort of
how to treat the meat once it isbutchered.
So I wanted to do a course, soI went along and did the course.
If you do have the opportunityI was presented this opportunity
to be involved in somethingthat I care about I'm not going
to be like, I'm not going toassume that I'm just there
(00:30):
because it's token, because I'mfemale.
Dodge Keir (00:31):
I'm sure death's probably not new to you, but how
did that feel the first timeyou physically yourself shot an
animal?
Welcome back to another episodeof accurate hunts life outdoors
(00:53):
we have tonight with us cassjoining us from marabinol.
That's right.
Yes, like I said it, right,cass fleming cass and I met on
the side of a dusty road atnundle state forest, I think
officially the first time yes,that's right.
Cass Fleming (01:05):
Yes, we did Drive along.
Saw some interesting charactersin camo on the side of the road
.
Dodge Keir (01:10):
Yeah, our camo obviously wasn't working.
Cass Fleming (01:12):
No.
Dodge Keir (01:13):
It's an awkward situation when you're in a state
forest and you're walking alongthe road with a rifle.
I feel that I'm torn betweenhiding, because it's just easier
to hide or you know you're notdoing anything wrong, but
avoiding the confrontation byhiding.
Cass Fleming (01:31):
I think if you hide, you have to make sure
you've done a really good job atit, because it's way creepier
to have someone trying to likehide and not being successful
rather than just going abouttheir business.
Dodge Keir (01:42):
That's right, it's a half.
Yeah, you can't do it by half,because if you do it by half
it's really creepy.
Cass Fleming (01:48):
It is.
It's really effective, I think.
Dodge Keir (01:51):
I can't remember who .
It was told me that I think itwas one of the boys from one of
the other podcasts.
They were saying that they gotpulled up by someone on the road
and the cops ended up turningup.
They were in a state forest.
They weren't doing anythingwrong, but the ruling was that
she said that she feltthreatened because he had a
(02:11):
firearm.
Right he didn't threaten her.
Cass Fleming (02:15):
Yeah.
Dodge Keir (02:16):
But she felt threatened and that was enough
to warrant, you know, a warningfrom the cops.
Because she felt threatened.
Cass Fleming (02:22):
That's a tricky situation, isn't it?
Dodge Keir (02:24):
Yeah, especially when you're not doing anything
wrong.
It's like shooting a bow andarrow in a public place, like at
a field or sports field orsomething.
As long as you're not, as longas no one's physically feeling
threatened by it, it'scompletely legal.
Cass Fleming (02:37):
Yeah.
Dodge Keir (02:38):
So, but we weren't just walking around the forest
in Nundle that's not how westumbled across each other, but
we were up there for theAustralian Hunters Club annual
camp last year.
Cass Fleming (02:46):
That's exactly right.
Dodge Keir (02:50):
I was expecting to see hunters not confronting Adam
.
No, no, you didn't feelthreatened.
No, I did not Were you lost.
You came from the wrongdirection.
Cass Fleming (02:57):
I was on my way back from a road trip to Fraser
Island.
Dodge Keir (03:01):
Yeah, that's right I was?
Cass Fleming (03:02):
I was heading South Yep.
Dodge Keir (03:04):
And you had some mechanical issues.
Cass Fleming (03:06):
I did yes, my, my car, ron.
His name's Ron, cause he'sBurgundy.
He um his radiator went on theway down on the side of the road
Yep, so that took a couple ofdays to fix.
Dodge Keir (03:18):
Cost you a day.
I think on the way out you hada flat tire too.
Cass Fleming (03:21):
I did on the way out.
Yes, you came to the rescue anda few other boys came along.
Dodge Keir (03:27):
You had all the tools Just at the right time.
Cass Fleming (03:29):
I did, I did and, yeah, was on my way to getting
it done, but happy to receivesome help to gather the logs and
jack it all up because it was,yeah, a bit unstable ground, but
we got there.
Good little team project.
Dodge Keir (03:41):
It was.
It was a good team event toothat one.
Yeah, it really was.
Yeah, it was funny circlingback to that and I've just been
playing with this in front of meand not related to the
conversation at all.
But I have a little pocketknife here that a good friend of
mine made for me.
He's got my name engraved on it.
Dr Yannick made for me.
I think you can buy a kit andhe sort of handmade the scales,
(04:03):
but that there is actually theshin bone from the red stag that
I shot on that trip.
Oh, how good.
So I sent him the bone.
Cass Fleming (04:12):
Yeah, great way to commemorate.
Dodge Keir (04:17):
And he made the wife and I matching set out of it.
Cass Fleming (04:20):
How beautiful.
Dodge Keir (04:21):
Yeah, looking forward to that.
So Cass is with us tonight formultiple reasons.
One because she's reallyenjoying hunting and the journey
that she's on and we'll getinto that, but mostly you might
recognise her from everywhere onFacebook in the last I don't
know 36, 48 hours or so.
Cass Fleming (04:41):
Yeah, the last three days.
Dodge Keir (04:42):
Yeah and yeah.
Cass was featured in an articlethat was done by the ABC
Rhiannon I can't remember thelast name.
Cass Fleming (04:50):
Stephens.
Dodge Keir (04:51):
Stephens was the journalist that produced quite a
well-put-together and topicalpiece about the influx of new
hunters and the way things aregoing down in Victoria
specifically.
But it was nice to see and thisis the general consensus of the
comments is it's nice to see amainstream media do a you know,
(05:13):
nice fluffy piece about huntingand it wasn't, you know, spun in
any particular bad way.
Cass Fleming (05:18):
Yeah, absolutely.
It was a great project to be apart of and when I was, you know
, first considering it, when Iwas approached about it, I had
obviously my hesitations becauseyou know what you sort of hear
and see in the media generally.
But you know, I asked thequestion is this pro-hunting,
anti-hunting?
What's the general vibe of it?
(05:40):
Rhiannon had said it's balancedview.
It's just you giving um, givingan account of of the story, of
my intentions and why I got intohunting, what my motivation was
.
But I think it actually turnedout to be really positive um, so
it was promoted.
I guess it was promised to methat it would be at least
neutral, not anti-hunting, but Ifeel as though it had a really
positive spin on it and it was areally really nice take on on
(06:04):
why people are passionate abouthunting and what it means.
Dodge Keir (06:06):
So yeah, she did a really good job, a really good
job pulling it together, but youguys.
I mean, there was yourselfwally chang um pete from baw baw
and chris waters yeah um, andthat was.
You know, it was a good mix ofnewbies, people on their way,
more experienced people withPete, and I think that was a
(06:27):
really good cross-section toshow that part of the industry.
Cass Fleming (06:31):
I agree I think Rhianna did a great job tying it
all together and sort of thedifferent components of a
hunting journey and differentavenues that you can go down if
you're looking to do hunting.
But I thought also more broadlywithin the whole episode of
Landline.
Abc did a pretty good job atcurating the whole idea of those
.
You know the fruit and whereyour fruit comes from and like
just opening people's minds upto more supply chain and, yeah,
(06:56):
how you access the food that weeat and meat is definitely a
part of that.
Dodge Keir (07:00):
Alternative options.
Alternative options yeah, wasRhianna.
Did she make clear her personalopinions at all?
Cass Fleming (07:09):
She didn't.
I don't think she had.
She was very curious, I thinkit's more her stance on it was
that she just it's not somethingthat she had had a background
in and was just really wantingto see what it was all about and
she was really great to spend aday with actually.
So she came out for a hunt withme.
I picked her up.
We went out in the high country, so we stayed in Benalla and
that was our base so that Icould pick her up first thing in
(07:30):
the morning.
Dodge Keir (07:31):
She jumped in the car with me Was it her and a
cameraman, no, just her.
Cass Fleming (07:34):
So she came with just all the equipment herself.
We jumped in the car, drove alittle way into the bush and
then went out for the day, soshe was stalking around the bush
with me documenting the wholethings.
We had little chats, littlewhispers in the bush, which was
really nice and it was great.
And then on the drive there andon the way home, that's when we
got to have some just generalchats about ourselves and our
(07:57):
lives and what we're all about,and it was a really nice
experience.
Actually, is that your firsttime being on TV?
Dodge Keir (08:02):
And it was a really nice experience actually, is
that?
Cass Fleming (08:05):
your first time being on TV, yeah, first.
Yes, I have been in a movieclip, not a what are they called
a video clip, like a song videoclip in the past as an extra,
but you know it was definitelyNot as the lead singer.
Oh, no, no, it was.
Yeah, someone I used to workwith their daughter was like a
producer or something andthey're like we need extras.
(08:25):
So no, yes, definitely my firsttime of being front and centre
on TV.
Dodge Keir (08:33):
Did you think that in your first time being on TV,
some of your first words wouldbe and here you have, deer poop.
Cass Fleming (08:40):
I didn't.
You know.
If you had asked me before Istarted hunting, like what will
I be on TV for?
It probably wouldn't have beenmy guess.
And that's funny, actually,because prior to hunting I never
would have thought it could beso exciting to find poo Like it.
Just it would not have enteredmy consciousness that, yeah,
that you could be like.
Oh my gosh, like this sign, I'mon the right track.
There's definitely deer here.
Dodge Keir (09:01):
You don't have any kids, do you?
Cass Fleming (09:03):
I do not no, no.
Dodge Keir (09:04):
So it's just.
I'm on my third now and he'sfour and a half nearly five
months, and my camera roll.
Not so much with this one, butthe first two is poop.
It's just an exciting thingwith children.
There's different styles ofpoop, colours of poop,
consistencies of poop, how farthey can get it up their armpits
.
Yeah, poop's an, they can getit up their armpits.
It's, yeah, poops and anexciting topic for those types
(09:25):
of things.
But it was a goodrepresentation of beginner
hunters.
And then it broke into Wallytalking about you know why he
does what he does on his phone.
Cass Fleming (09:36):
Yeah, yeah, and.
Dodge Keir (09:37):
I haven't met.
Actually, I did meet Wally downat Deer Expo.
Cass Fleming (09:41):
Yes, yep.
Dodge Keir (09:41):
He was down there just chatting with Chris, but I
seem to think that that you know, he's just an older guy that is
really enjoying learning inlife and he's like, well, why
can't I just get other people tolearn with me at the same time?
Yeah and that's why he'shosting what he's doing.
So you went and did a course athis place I did, yes.
Cass Fleming (10:01):
So that was my like sort of first experience in
learning about deer hunting.
So I've grown up aroundfirearms They've never been
foreign or exotic but I wasn'tinto hunting.
I knew of hunting, never had aproblem, probably actually had
curiosity about it when I wasyounger, but not deliberately
pursued it to get into it.
(10:21):
So I was doing long-range rifleshooting.
So I was pretty confident thatif I found a deer so I was doing
long range rifle shooting so Iwas pretty confident that if I
found a deer, so I was shootingout to 900 meters.
And well, you know, at 900 it'squite a big target.
But like I was quite proficientwithin 300 meters and I thought
, well, deer are going to becloser than that.
So I was pretty confident thatif I found a deer I'd be able to
take an accurate shot.
But it was everything before andeverything after pulling the
(10:44):
trigger that was a real mysteryto me.
So how to find deer, what arethe ethics that go along with
hunting, and the etiquette aswell in terms of when you you
know, if you get to know otherhunters and, yeah, I guess, just
how you conduct yourself,everything before pulling the
trigger and then everythingafter as well.
I'd never butchered animalbefore or um didn't know sort of
(11:04):
how to treat the meat once itis butchered, um, so I wanted to
do a course.
I went along and did the coursewith naturally sufficient,
which was excellent, um, it wasa whole weekend and we did all
the different legalconsiderations, treatment of
firearms, um the butchering.
We looked at recipes and thewhole process, I guess, which
(11:28):
was really great.
I've also done a course withthe ADA.
I'm a member of the AustralianDeer Association as well.
Dodge Keir (11:34):
Member, aren't you on the committee?
Cass Fleming (11:36):
I am on the committee.
Yes, I do like to get involved,so yeah, which is very exciting
also.
Dodge Keir (11:44):
Head badge maker.
I have offered to get involved,so yeah, which is very exciting
also, is that head badge maker.
Cass Fleming (11:46):
I have offered to make badges, yes.
Dodge Keir (11:51):
Side note Cass made some badges for the Hunters Club
catch-up.
Cass Fleming (11:55):
Yeah.
Dodge Keir (11:57):
That's a little side note, but yeah, so you've
worked your way into ADA andthen you did a course with them.
They do a beginner huntercourse too, yeah yes, which was
actually really fantastic theway.
Cass Fleming (12:05):
So the one I did with naturally sufficient, was
before I'd actually gone outmyself into the wild.
So, um, it was really a goodstarting place.
But then I did go out a numberof times.
I did a guided hunt with petefrom board board adventures, who
you mentioned earlier.
Um, which was fantastic.
So it's not, I guess, like ifyou don't know what a guided
hunt is, you might think thatit's like what you might see in
(12:27):
movies, where someone takes youand puts you on an animal and
all you do is pull the trigger.
Certainly not the case withpete.
He is very educational, so wewould drive along and then he'd
point out the window where therewas marks, you know, where you
could see um, tracks, um, orhe'd point out the poo and talk
about the wind and what we'redoing and as we were doing the
(12:48):
process just putting, I guess,the practical elements in place
with the theoretical elementsthat we'd learnt, which was
really helpful.
We did get close to deer acouple of times when I went out
with him, but the wind was notkind and didn't get close enough
to take a shot.
So, yeah, anyway, then I'd goneout a number of times.
(13:09):
I had one.
I've so far had one successfulhunt, which was on a trip away
with some guys that I'd metthrough the ADA, and so that was
great.
I had my real-world experience.
And then I did the course withthe ADA, and it was actually
really nice because some of thethings that I had learnt prior
(13:32):
were in the course, so it was, Iguess, handy to see just how
much I have learnt in the lasttwo years, but then there were
heaps of new gems as well.
I think you'll never stoplearning, and I certainly won't
ever feel as though I havereached a point of all knowledge
, so it was nice to receive allthese new little pieces of
information that I couldassimilate in with my current
(13:53):
knowledge and just keep building.
And meeting new people as wellis always great, it's.
I really enjoy the huntingcommunity, so like to to be a
part of it, and it was a weekendaway where you get all your
meals cooked for you and get tojust hang out and have good
times sounds like a pretty goodlittle holiday.
Dodge Keir (14:12):
Yeah, yeah, it was great at the start there.
You spoke about etiquette andhow that works as being a new
hunter.
Do you want to share a littlebit about that and what, what
your feelings are on that?
Because, yeah, I feel like atdifferent stages of the I don't
want to call it a ladder maybedifferent stages of progress,
the etiquette changes a littlebit, because you've got, I want
to say, people more experiencedthan you and then people less
(14:35):
experienced than you, and thenyour responsibilities to each as
you travel down that chain.
Cass Fleming (14:39):
Yeah, I guess I don't like to ever assume what a
situation is.
I like to be quite explicitwith what I'm hoping for and
also like to know what otherpeople's expectations are.
And because there areoutfitters that will take you
out and you pay to go on aguided hunt or, you know, there
are some experienced people thathave probably just as much or
even more knowledge than thosepeople which some people want to
(15:02):
take people out as friends andsome people do it as a business.
So I didn't want to ever beasking anyone to give me their
knowledge for free, unless itwas something that they're
wanting to do as part of acommunity.
So it's like that kind of thefact that for some people it's a
day job and for some peopleit's a hobby um, not wanting to
sort of blur any lines or, ummake assumptions about what was
(15:26):
happening, but then also as well, you know, if someone were to
share knowledge with me, thatmight be knowledge that they've
built up over a really long time.
That's specific to an area thatthey may not want to share.
I think a lot of people doshare their knowledge and that's
really lovely when they want to, but I just think that's their
IP.
They've done the work to gatherthat and if they're wanting to
(15:49):
share that with me, myassumption is, unless they say
to share it further than myself,I wouldn't want to do that.
So it's just making sure thatI'm, I guess, being mindful of
the community that I'm cominginto and wanting to be
respectful of everyone in it.
Dodge Keir (16:07):
We spoke today when we were getting ready for this,
but we spoke about my thoughtson the way I think the community
is changing in that passing onof knowledge.
And I think that I mean I'm afirst-generation hunter.
It's no secret, I've spokenabout it a lot and I think
that's quite prevalent intoday's community.
(16:30):
But I think that that'saffecting the way that we share
knowledge in a good way, meaningthat traditionally that
knowledge was passed from fatherto son or uncle or great-uncle
or whatever usually a maleinfluence older in life and then
that's passed on through thelineage of name son, nephew,
(16:54):
whatever and then it's expectedthat it stays there until they
pass it onto their sons.
But I feel that with thisincrease in first-generation
hunters that don't have that,we're leaning on social media
and blogs and forums and TVshows and YouTubes for our
information.
But once we get involved in acommunity and we find some other
first-generation hunters, weall seem a little bit more
(17:16):
excited to share that knowledge.
Yeah, absolutely.
I think that's well.
I think it's a positive.
I'm not sure where it's goingto head long-term, but I mean, I
probably wasn't like thatinitially because I felt a bit
guarded about my information,because that's what everyone did
, but now it's really turning acorner.
I think it's very, and we seeit in.
(17:37):
There's an Australian HuntersClub chat for members and
someone will put up hey, haveyou ever hunted in X?
And someone will message themor put a message up and say I've
sent you a PM, let's chat.
And that just doesn't.
I just don't think that's theway it was, and I think that's
the way it is now, and I'mlooking forward to seeing where
that goes.
Cass Fleming (17:57):
Oh, absolutely, and my experience has been that
most people that I've had chatswith have been happy to share
not always explicit detailsabout their location,
necessarily, but a lot of youknow information about how to
best hunt or different tips, andI think there's a lot of one
percenters that you gather alongyour journey that will
ultimately help lead you towardssuccess.
(18:18):
So I've had really goodexperience.
I guess I just don't go inexpecting that people will just
hand me all their knowledge, but, like, as you get to know
people and then you are part ofthe community, then there is
that sense of camaraderie andeveryone wanting to sort of work
together, which is really nice,and I feel a personal
(18:39):
responsibility to equip myself.
So, you know, I've done a lotof my own research and I've done
the courses and read differentresources to try and find my own
information.
But there's something reallynice about being able to share
the journey with other people,with like-minded people.
So it's not just about you know, going in and trying to get all
(18:59):
their knowledge, it's aboutbecoming friends and having
shared experiences, which I findreally enjoyable.
And you mentioned before about,I guess, like the changing
landscape, and I'm always reallymindful of not wanting to
discount anyone or anyone else'sexperience in their hunting
journey, because sometimespeople talk about hunting and
(19:23):
how they've copped a lot offlack in their hunting journey
and so you know that'sunfortunate, that that has been
the case In my case.
Most people that I've talkedabout my hunting with, most
non-hunters that I've talkedabout, they've been more curious
than anything, and obviouslythere's some people that are not
(19:44):
interested in talking about itand that's fine.
I don't feel the need toconvince anyone of why hunting
is great, but, yeah, a lot ofpeople are just yeah, curious.
How did you get into that?
Oh, that's, oh, that'ssurprising.
What's that all about?
Or, um, which is really reallynice, and I I hope that more and
(20:04):
more hunters have thatexperience as they're going
through their journey, so thatit's not it's not.
I don't see it as taboo.
I talk about it very matter offact.
If someone's like, what are youup to on the weekend?
I'm going out for a hunt, oryou know, I, you know, made a
curry and it had venison and itwas delicious, and um, yeah, I,
I don't um, I don't assume thatpeople will have a negative um
(20:29):
view of of hunting, but I knowthey might, but I'm not going to
make that assumption.
Dodge Keir (20:35):
I had a client the other day and I just in
conversation, just fencingrelated client, and I said, oh,
what do you do for work?
And he lent in and he said, oh,I'm a magistrate.
Okay, you know you know yeahjust like what you're saying,
then I'm going hunting like itnormal.
I don't know why he felt theneed to particularly whisper
(20:57):
that.
Yes, it's not like he'd seen me, you know, at his work before,
in front of him fighting a caseor anything, but you know I'm
always pretty loud and proudabout what we do.
Yeah, and have you used yourfood to, you know, share with
non-hunters at work or anything?
Cass Fleming (21:15):
Not food to, you know, share with non-hunters at
work or anything.
Not so much, I guess, like Ihaven't harvested a lot of meat
myself, in that I've shared itwith friends and family, but not
I haven't had it in thequantities I guess that I have
taken into work.
But it's certainly somethingthat I would do in the future.
(21:35):
Yeah, probably something that'sreally like palatable, maybe
some sausage rolls or somethingthat's just little bite size,
little morsel to just, you know,get people started yeah, I
wouldn't say confused, but I tryto.
Dodge Keir (21:49):
when I'm introducing food like game meat to
non-hunters, I stick withsomething they already know.
Like you said, sausage rolls,yeah, and just change one
ingredient, just change theprotein.
Yeah.
Don't go with something crazyand say, oh, this is, you know,
backstrap stuff with mushroomsthat I've harvested and found
myself in the forest.
That's you know.
Cass Fleming (22:08):
that's a bit confronting for me, yeah, a bit
of tongue just like slitheredoff with a bit of cheese.
Dodge Keir (22:14):
Yeah, it's not something I've ever eaten tongue
.
I don't think.
I don't think I've ever gonedown that path.
I haven't either.
Cass Fleming (22:19):
I haven't either, but at one of the camps that I
was at recently, yeah, one ofthe guys was boiling up a tongue
and then slicing it off and, Idon't know, garnishing it with
something.
Dodge Keir (22:27):
Apparently it's really yum, the same with heart.
I mean.
I have eaten it.
It's not one of the ones I gofor first.
I was just in Darwin two weeksago and there's a picture of the
client holding a buffalo heartand this thing is just ginormous
, like the size of a dinnerplate.
That's like a whole meal initself.
With the circling back to thecommunity side of things, part
(22:51):
of, I'm going to mention Chrisagain.
But Chris is the reason thatyou know you and I met
originally.
I suppose you know he startedthe australian hunters club for
certain reasons and one of thosemain reasons was to start a
community of you know,like-minded people and it's
created like a.
You know this.
When you say like-minded, wehave one thing in common, which
(23:12):
is hunting, but it's such abroad spectrum of knowledge base
and skill level.
And one thing I really likeabout it is people have the
opportunity to leave at any timeand most of the people that do
that are ones that say I didn'tget anything out of it, and I'm
actually, I think you are aswell.
We're on the admin side of oneof the Facebook pages attached
(23:33):
to that club.
Cass Fleming (23:37):
And one of my questions to those people that
want to leave is what did youput in?
Dodge Keir (23:39):
100?
Yep, what did you put in?
And this goes back to any club,and I see this here with our
local hunting club.
I've got it here on my shirt,would you care?
Every hunters and english andthere's some members of that
that just I was mentioning tosomeone the other day.
There's one particular memberand he's pretty new to it all.
He'd be one of the first peopleI ask to go hunting if I just
want to go on a casual hunt,because he's the first one to
(24:01):
put his hand up to help.
He's the last one therecleaning up.
You know he comes to all theevents and he lives the furthest
away.
Cass Fleming (24:08):
Yeah.
Dodge Keir (24:09):
You know he's put in so much, so you know more than
willing to.
I'm not saying I don't helpothers either, but it's
definitely nicer helping someonewho is doing these things in
being involved in clubs withoutexpecting anything in return
absolutely.
Cass Fleming (24:24):
I think, like you said, what you, you have to put
something in to get somethingout of it.
Um, and there's a lot of joy indoing that too.
Like that's sometimes whenyou're sort of not that it's in
the trenches, but when you'redoing the work with people.
That's when you get to bond alittle bit and you share the
load and you know you want to domore with the people that are
(24:44):
contributing to an organisation,rather than the ones that are
just sitting around waiting forit to all be given to them.
I mean, in my journey, likewith the Australian Hunters Club
, there's the option to host ahunt, where you can, as you know
, invite people to come alongand go out for a hunt with you.
When I first joined, I didn'tknow what I was doing, so I'm
not going to be like, hey, I'mgoing to host a hunt because I
(25:05):
mean, yeah, sure, let's, we cango wander around the bush
together, but I'm stillacquiring my knowledge and happy
to impart it once as I gatherit.
My knowledge, and happy toimpart it once as I gather it.
And even sorry, quick detour,but even when I took out
Rhiannon from the ABC, I said toher so long as this is not an
educational thing, because Imean, I know quite a bit of
stuff now that I've acquired,but I'm not presuming to be a
(25:27):
teacher in this space or anexpert in this space.
You can come out and we can goin the bush and I can, you know,
share things that I've learnt,but I'm not going to be teaching
or instructing.
I'm not, like you know,proclaiming to do that, but
anyway.
So through the AustralianHunters Club, I knew I couldn't
host a hunt but I did a coupleof pub dinners and I volunteered
at the expo and the wild deerexpo, but then also the
(25:50):
Mansfield Hunting and FishingExpo, because that's ways in
which I can give of my time tothe club and then, you know, in
return there's benefits that Iget.
And it's the same with the ADA.
I've now volunteered to be onthe committee and happy to make
badges and you know I've got allsorts of ideas.
I'm trying not to do too muchall guns blazing, but yeah, I
(26:13):
really like investing in thethings that I care about and I
think often some people, yeah,they're like oh, you know, I'm
not getting anything out of it,but if they're not putting
themselves into it either, thenit's not really surprising.
Dodge Keir (26:26):
I think that applies to everything in life.
Cass Fleming (26:28):
Definitely.
Dodge Keir (26:29):
Work, sport, any hobby you want to take on.
I think that the majority of myfriends I'm going to say 95%
now have come from the huntingcommunity and I had a young
fellow at work the other day.
He's an apprentice working forone of the other mobs and you
know, he's only 17 or somethingand he was going out with his
mates that's right, it wasFriday.
(26:49):
He was going out with his matesfrom school who he hasn't seen
and I said said, are you stillfriends with many friends from
school?
He said yeah, all of them.
And I remember at some point inmy life I was like I don't
really have anything in commonwith those people I went to
school with and you start todrift away from that.
And then that's when I've sortof accumulated and found this
circle of friends that now mybest friends they're all have
(27:11):
come from this hunting communityyeah, I've met some great
people in my journey as well, soI think it's really many bad
ones you know what, throughthrough I've, I've come across
people that I'm like I don'twant to be.
Cass Fleming (27:26):
I would not choose to be friends with you, um, but
not as in like when volunteertheo, like you get some
interesting characters come upand have a chat.
But no, through my sort of Iwould say, not official channels
, but through the clubs thatI've joined, I've not met anyone
that I just thought, nah,you're a bad egg, I'm not.
(27:46):
You know, I don't want to knowyou.
There's some people that I getalong more than others, just
like anywhere in life.
You know, you find your peopleand there are some people that
you really like and some peoplethat you're like, happy to be
around but not going to bebesties with.
But no, all pretty goodexperiences, yeah.
Dodge Keir (28:02):
With the article.
I've been trying to think abouthow to word this question.
I don't really know how, so I'mjust going to say it.
Cass Fleming (28:09):
Yeah.
Dodge Keir (28:09):
I think it got shared better because there was
a female on the front.
I think it got shared betterbecause there was a female on
the front.
I think it had a much larger,wider spread impact.
And I just want to ask how do Ieven say it Barriers to entry
into the hunting industry?
Being a female, have you foundit's been like eaten?
(28:32):
You can't even compare becauseyou're not a male.
But you know, what's yourexperience being a female
starting in industry?
Cass Fleming (28:41):
yeah so, because people have asked me this before
, like what's it like?
And yeah, so sometimes I willbe at a meeting and it, you know
, I remember one of the ADAmeetings that I went to.
There was probably like 70blokes there and the percentage
of women was me Like um,absolutely it is male dominated,
but for me, I think it's like alot of things in life, whatever
(29:01):
you look for, you will find.
And if I looked for reasons tofeel like I was unwelcome
because I'm female, you couldprobably find it.
But also if I look for reasonsthat people are including me,
I'll find that.
But also if I look for reasonsthat people are including me,
I'll find that.
And so one example is I rememberbeing at one meeting I think it
was maybe like the second timeI was there this is at the ADA
(29:24):
and I walked in and, if you know, a few people were there, sort
of chatting and stuff, and noone came up and said hi, I had
met a few people before, but Ithink they maybe weren't there
when I arrived this particulartime.
And you know, I absolutelycould have been like oh, I'm a
woman, they don't want to talkto me, but I don't like to make
that assumption.
Everyone has a different, likedifferent skills around social
(29:47):
skills and how they can interactwith people.
Some blokes don't know how totalk to women I'm not going to
assume that you know like that'sanything offensive.
But anyway, in this moment Iwas like well, I have also not
approached anyone, so I'll justgo and chat to someone.
Went over, found someone's likehey, hi, are you new here too?
(30:09):
And they're like yeah, this ismy.
I think it was theirresponsibility for deciding how
they show up in an area and alsokeeping their own emotions and
perceptions in check.
Obviously, there are somedifferences of what my
experience would probably be tomen.
(30:30):
So, in terms of I want to be apart of a community, I like to
have friends in the activitiesthat I do and my pool of people
to make those friends in ispredominantly men.
It's not like there's men andwomen and I'm just.
I'm like I just want to befriends with the blokes, like
that's my option, like it is abunch of blokes and that's fine.
(30:53):
Um, I remember when I went to myfirst camp um with the ada,
like actually, oh, the firstcamp with um, australian hunters
club was awesome as well, Idefinitely felt extremely
welcome there.
There was eight of us and wewere out in um razorback hut,
which was really cool, um, but Iarrived in the daytime then, so
that was, that was cool.
We had, you know, chats aroundthe bar and stuff.
But this other camp, my firstADA camp I arrived at about 9.30
(31:16):
at night, went in through likethis bumpy entryway, so I
accidentally pressed my horn asI was arriving.
So I'm like beep, oh hey,everyone.
That was my entrance.
That was my entrance and I rockup and there's probably like 20
blokes sitting around the fire.
I had met a few before but itwas heaps of new people and
stuff and a few people were like, oh you know like, good on you
for coming out, like you knowlike, but it just it didn't feel
(31:39):
weird to me.
I was like this is a space Iwant to be in and no one has
told me that it's not for me.
I don't, I it's not like.
There's hunting and women'shunting and that's the one I'm
meant to be in and that's theone I'm meant to be in.
It's hunting and anyone can goto it.
It just happens to attract moremen and that's fine.
I would love to encourage morepeople to get into hunting, but
(32:04):
anyone that's interested inhunting, not specifically just
targeting women.
But I guess my point if youknow if I was talking to anyone
about hunting and what myjourney is like it's that go in
open-minded and I guess don'ttry, and I've not wanted to
change the space or say thatyou've got to do this, this and
this for me to feel welcome.
I decide whether I'm confidentenough to be in that space or
(32:27):
not, and I feel that I am.
No one has been, no one has saidoh, what are you doing here as
a woman?
A lot of people are good onyour love, and I mean some.
Some people even have a problemwith being called love.
I don't, I am lovely, call melove, that's fine.
Um, I don't need men to changewho they are or change how they
behave for me to feel welcome.
And if I did, then that'sthat's for me to solve and work
(32:48):
out and remedy myself, not to,not to begrudge an organization
that's running how it is alreadyand it's the same with you.
Know, there's a few people thathave made comments about you
know.
Oh, some blokes don't want thedrama, they don't want women,
they don't want this.
And I'm like, mate, if youdon't want to be friends with a
woman, if you don't have thecapacity for that, don't
(33:09):
befriend women.
Like, don't get your knickersin a twist.
It's not that hard to figureout.
I don't want to.
I don't want to be friends witheveryone either.
So it's, I don't know.
Yeah, anyway, I think.
Sorry, I think I've gone off ontangents to your original
question, but yeah, it's, it ispossible that there.
I mean it probably is true thatthe article was shared more
(33:30):
because it's female, and butthat's that's like a lot of
things in life If something popsup that's unusual, people are
intrigued by it.
Dodge Keir (33:40):
I think that Rhiannon did a good job in
choosing that particular photo,and I'd be interested to know
whether she just personallyliked that photo more than you
know one of Wally or one of Peteor you know, whatever it was.
Cass Fleming (33:49):
Yeah.
Dodge Keir (33:50):
But I think that a really, especially coming from
the ABC news channels andlandline really challenge some
of their regular watchers whoyou know might see hunting as a
purely male-dominated sport, andthey're like hold on, there's a
female with a firearm.
That goes against what I kindof picture in my mind as the
stereotype.
Cass Fleming (34:09):
Yeah, I'm interested, I'm intrigued, yes,
and hopefully so, and it'scertainly not like I'm
trailblazing at all.
There are some amazing womenthat are in the hunting realm.
So Emma Sears is one of thespeakers that was at the ADA
weekend and she was fantastic.
She's been hunting for a numberof years and is a really great
example, and there's heaps ofothers that you know have been
(34:32):
doing it for a really long time.
So it's not like I'm comingalong being like I'm the first
to do this, but you know, Ithink it is uncommon or less
common.
Dodge Keir (34:49):
So it's fine.
If that causes intrigue, so beit, so be it.
One name that I remember fromback in the day and I don't know
where she's going actually Ishould try and find out but uh,
christy basani is her name andshe actually competed in a.
It was in texas in a huntress,uh, heart of the huntress, I
think it was called competition,and she was from queensland.
(35:10):
She was a bow hunter and youknow she ended up on the project
and old Waleed gave her a bitof curry on there about.
She's a paramedic and they'resaying you know how can you save
lives but take lives?
But the way she handed herselfin that interview was just, you
know, it was great, it was greatfor the industry and but that
you know she made it.
If there was an Australian maleoverseas competing in that
(35:33):
course, there'd be no interestin that from the project.
Cass Fleming (35:36):
Yeah.
Dodge Keir (35:37):
Yeah.
Cass Fleming (35:39):
You know what it's always.
These things are supply anddemand.
You can't control what peopleare interested in or what
they'll pick up on it, but ifyou do have the opportunity I
was presented this opportunityto be involved in something that
I care about I'm not going tobe like, I'm not going to assume
that I'm just there becauseit's token, because I'm female.
Maybe that is part of it orpart of the agenda or whatever.
(36:02):
But if, at the end of the day,it promotes something that I
love and I'm able to contributeto it positively, why would I
not be involved?
It just makes sense.
Dodge Keir (36:13):
Just makes sense.
I want to circle way back tosomething you mentioned and it
was that you went on your firsthunt where you were successful
and you were with someone whowas ADA related.
But I want to.
You asked me today.
You're like, oh, what are wegoing to talk about?
And for me it's.
I really enjoy hearing storieswhere you get to recount the
(36:37):
emotions that you actually gothrough, because to me I don't
remember the first time I shotsomething particularly.
I don't remember, you know, thefirst time I handled a dead
animal of some capacity I thinkit was probably a chicken at mum
and dad's when we killed somechickens.
But you know, I'm alwaysintrigued at the way people who
have just come into the sport,maybe later in life, like
(36:58):
yourself you said you've grownup in a farming industry or
farming family and things, soI'm sure death's probably not
new to you, but how did thatfeel to the first time you
physically yourself shot ananimal?
Cass Fleming (37:13):
Lots of emotions, none that I would label as
negative.
They're just all relevant andnecessary.
So my first time that I wassuccessful I guess I'll set the
scene for you.
It was early in the morning,probably a couple hundred metres
off a fire track was walkingalong and saw um, saw a hind
(37:35):
grazing just on the just down agully and up on the opposite
face, and it was fantastic.
She was actually completely inthe open.
So, as opposed to in the pastwhen generally it's you know,
just a tiny little part and I'mpotentially out in the open, um,
but anyway I was was hidden bysome trees, which gave me the
(37:56):
opportunity to sit down and getinto a really stable position
For my first shot.
That was really comforting.
I felt that I was certain that Iwould take an ethical shot
because I was able to see thefull vital area.
I was able to get into a stableposition and then really calmly
take a shot.
I already know that I won't takea running shot, um, where I am
(38:18):
in my journey, I don't feelproficient enough to do so and
I've decided that well before Igo out into the bush, what, what
I will or won't do, what I willor won't shoot um and that's
not just in terms of the settingis I won't take a running shot,
but I also wouldn't take a shotif the hind had a baby.
(38:39):
There's certain things that Ijust won't do, so in this
scenario it was perfectconditions for me.
So, yeah, took my shot, waited,you know, 10 minutes or so,
then went to follow up.
Within probably 10 more minutes, um found, found the hind.
She um would have only probablytraveled 30 meters from where I
(39:02):
shot her to where she laid torest, and then it.
You obviously go on to theprocess of starting to harvest
the meat.
And it felt right because Ialready knew why I was doing
what I'm doing.
I knew that this animal waspeacefully living in the bush
(39:23):
and then, very quickly afterthat, was dead At peace.
At peace, that you know that ithadn't been farmed, she hadn't
been farmed at all.
There was no, you know,transport trauma.
You know that it hadn't beenfarmed, she hadn't been farmed
at all.
There was no, you know,transport trauma.
You know getting trucked around, so that I felt a sense of
(39:44):
satisfaction in knowing wherethis particular meat was going
to come from.
I felt a great deal of gratitude, because the necessary exchange
to consume meat is that ananimal will die.
You're forced to face thatreality when you hunt.
You can't pretend that it'sjust meat, it's an animal that
then becomes meat, and sothere's a real, I guess, respect
(40:07):
to the process when thathappens.
And there, and there is ameasure of sorrow because that,
because of that necessaryexchange, you, you can't avoid
it, you have the animal right infront of you, um, but I feel as
though if I'm going to consumemeat, I can't ignore that fact
and I am going to consume meat.
(40:28):
So, um, yeah, that was sort ofthe main emotions that I felt.
And then, so, yeah, that wassort of the main emotions that I
felt.
And then, yeah, there was acarry out and I felt all sorts
of other emotions on the way out, falling down wombat holes and
sort of climbing up some prettysteep faces.
(40:48):
That felt a lot longer on theway out than they did on the way
in.
But yeah, it's all part of it.
Dodge Keir (40:54):
How much of your courses and education do you
think you remembered at the timewhen you were there cutting up?
Cass Fleming (41:02):
Some of it was.
As I went, I remembered certainthings.
So in the courses that I haddone, it was animals that had
been shot a few days before, sothey were cold and so I wasn't
sure how it would feel with ananimal that was warm.
I was, yeah, that was one thingthat I was like I don't know
(41:24):
how I'm going to feel until Iget there.
But when I did it was fine.
It didn't feel all thatdifferent.
There was a lot less blood thanI expected.
Um, which was it just is whatit was what it was.
But that was interesting Someof it.
I just had to kind of slow downand just think about what I was
doing.
Um, simple things like um,there were certain ligaments to
(41:49):
cut through that it felt likebone and then I realised I had
to actually press harder to makethe cut and then it was like,
okay, that's a learningexperience of how much pressure
that you need to use to achievea particular part of the
butchering.
But it was fine.
(42:10):
I got through it all and Ithink every time I and so I've
done some other butchering inthe course prior and then.
So since that as well, I'vedone some like breaking down of
legs and things at otheropportunities, and every time
you do it, I think you learnmore and more and it becomes
(42:32):
you'll become more efficient.
I think that that that fieldbutchering was probably the
slowest that I'll probably everdo in my life because it was new
and you were, yeah, learning asyou're going.
Dodge Keir (42:42):
Yeah, I think the lack of blood one is interesting
.
I hadn't considered that, butit's definitely not what you
picture.
Well, not what you see onmovies or anything of if
anyone's you's butchering thingson Hollywood.
There's always blood flyingeverywhere.
But from a hunting point ofview, essentially the animal
generally has fully bled outinternally, especially with a
(43:03):
good heart or chest lung shot.
That whole lung cavity justfills with blood.
Obviously there's still someblood in the meat and in the
veins.
But you know, people picture.
I'll give you an example Afriend of mine.
It was his first animal he'dshot and he shot it in the head,
which is fine, it's a good shot.
(43:24):
And then we went to take theback leg off straight away and
he cut the femoral artery and itsprayed him because it was like
we were like you know.
You know, within 30 seconds wewere on top of the animal and
started cutting in less than aminute.
So it, you know, that's whatpeople picture.
That's actually not realisticusually, and that was just
because the heart was stillpumping yeah, but generally yeah
(43:45):
, where did you shoot?
Just in the chest somewhere,you're happy with shot placement
yeah, absolutely, like allthrough the shoulder.
What calibre do you shoot?
Cass Fleming (43:53):
I have .308.
Dodge Keir (43:55):
And you're happy with that I love it.
Cass Fleming (43:57):
Yeah, got a Sauer Classic 100 .308.
I was convinced prior to buyingthis rifle that I was going to
get a Tikka, a Camo Wrap Tikka.308.
I don't know why that was justlike oh, that seems like a good
hunting gun.
But know why that was just likeoh, that that seems like a good
(44:20):
hunting gun.
Um, but then when I went intothe gun store melbourne gun
works they're excellent, veryhelpful um.
So I went in there and held theteaker and it just felt empty.
It was just like this hollow.
And nothing against them.
I'm sure they're fine as a gun,but for me it just didn't feel
right.
And then one of the guys inthere suggested the sour and I
was like, oh, I'll have a, havea look, why not?
And as soon as I held it I waslike yep, like this has a heart,
this is my hunting rifle.
I just knew and it was greatand I've loved it ever since.
Dodge Keir (44:40):
The emptiness that you described.
I know exactly what you feltand to me I mean, I own one, I'm
not going to complain about it,but it feels like a beach
cricket bat yes, yes, it feels,it feels hollow.
Cass Fleming (44:55):
I'm like, yeah, like I'm sure if I smashed on
something, obviously it wouldn't, but like it feels, like it
would just like ting, like itthey're definitely stronger than
you think, but they have thatfeeling yeah, and then that that
comes into play when you'redoing, you know, recoil and
things on larger calibers.
Dodge Keir (45:08):
Yes, yeah extra weight exactly so.
Cass Fleming (45:12):
So you know, obviously it's a little bit more
for the guns as I'm goingaround, but it's fine, I like it
yeah.
Dodge Keir (45:19):
What did you do with the meat on that one?
So you had someone with you orthey turned up.
Were they with you for thewhole hunt?
Cass Fleming (45:24):
Yeah, they were with me for the whole hunt.
Yeah, so they helped.
I put the back straps in mybackpack.
We took one leg each, so thatwas actually very helpful to get
the meat out.
Yeah, took it up to the firetrack and then walked back to my
car from there, drove back downand picked it up and then drove
back.
Dodge Keir (45:43):
Yeah, imagine doing it all by yourself, like it
would be multiple trips.
Cass Fleming (45:47):
Well, it would have been two trips.
I mean, I could have probablydone one leg Nah.
Nah, that's a lot.
I think it would have been twotrips.
Or it would have been like nah,it would have been two trips.
Dodge Keir (45:59):
I think it would have been two trips for me too.
One of the new fellas in ourlocal club here just shot a
Samba the other week and thatwas I think someone was saying
it's the second bullet he'sfired out of that gun at an
animal, yeah right.
And both of them were at thatSamba.
Yeah, it's pretty crazy as hisfirst animal, and then he had it
on the ground and then he'slike what do I do now?
Cass Fleming (46:20):
Yeah.
Dodge Keir (46:25):
You know he said that one of the boys has
suggested I get him on to havethe chat, so I don't want to
tell his full story, but he saidthat all his research leading
up to it was how to find animals.
How to find, yes.
Where do I look?
What am I?
Cass Fleming (46:38):
looking for, and none of his research was what do
I do after I shot one?
Yeah, and obviously that's soimportant, right it's.
You need the whole journey andyou can.
I mean, there's a lot you canlearn in the classroom that
you're still going to sort ofrevise once you're out in
practice and you're going toforget things, and then each
time you're going to learn newthings or whatever.
But you can't stop at thetrigger pull.
The end part of the process isvery important too.
Dodge Keir (47:00):
That is, and Sambra, you know, is the biggest deer
species we have in Australia.
So to shoot one of those, asyour first ones is, you know
it's only downhill from there.
If you shoot a fallow, you'llbe throwing the whole thing on
your backpack.
Cass Fleming (47:13):
Yeah, oh easy.
Dodge Keir (47:15):
Have you got any trips coming up planned?
Cass Fleming (47:18):
Yeah, so next weekend I've got a trip with my
ADA branch, so we'll head awayup to the high country there and
, yeah, hopefully a big success.
But I actually.
So it's not like I'm blasé andI'm like, oh, I don't care if I
get a deer, it's just thatthat's not my only objective.
I I just love being in the bush.
It's time in the bush is neverwasted and every time I'm out
(47:42):
there I'll find something new,something interesting, I'll find
a new plant species I've neverseen, or just listen to the
birds.
I never come back feeling worsethan what I went in.
I just love being out there.
So it's and you know, the campsare great as well just for
camaraderie, networking, havingsome chats.
(48:02):
I want to try and make bread.
I've been getting into bread atthe moment like in the oven,
but I want to try and cook it ona campfire.
So that's going to be one of myexperiments.
I'm going to make up a fewbatches of dough and, yeah, try
and get some good bread.
Dodge Keir (48:16):
Are you?
A sourdough person.
Have you got a starter?
Cass Fleming (48:18):
It's not sourdough , no, it's just so.
It's flour, yeast, salt andwater.
That's it.
You don't have to knead it.
It's so easy and it's sodelicious.
Dodge Keir (48:28):
You can use, like if you picture the tin, that corn
comes in, you know a larger, nota bit bigger than a beer can.
Cass Fleming (48:36):
Yeah.
Dodge Keir (48:37):
And you take the lid off that and you actually cook
it in that in the coals and youmake little individual ones and
then you pop them out andeveryone's got like little.
That sounds like a great idea.
Little dinner rolls.
Cass Fleming (48:46):
Maybe I'll experiment with that too.
Dodge Keir (48:48):
Yeah, you need lots of little cans.
Cass Fleming (48:49):
I'm going to be like a bread scientist and like
making all different things.
I think you just answered.
Dodge Keir (48:54):
I was going to ask you and I said this a few
episodes ago.
It's going to be my newquestion.
I ask everyone and I've failedto do that because I've
forgotten on a few but what doyou consider a successful hunt?
Cass Fleming (49:08):
Yeah.
So a successful hunt it wouldbe that I either come home with
an empty casing or empty hands.
So I don't want to take a shotthat's not successful.
I'm happy to come out with nodeer.
That's no worries, and just notin any conflict of how I've
(49:30):
behaved, how I've conductedmyself while I'm away.
So you know, just making sure Iknow why I'm there, what I'm
doing, and stay in alignmentwith that.
If I see deer, great.
If I shoot a deer, great.
If I see no deer, great.
Those sorts of things don'tindicate success for me.
So long as I've done it alllegally and ethically, that's
fine by me.
That's a good answer.
I like that.
Dodge Keir (49:51):
I'm not at the I don't know, it's partly because
the hunting part is business aswell, but it's.
You know, we get paid onsuccess, and success is
harvesting animals from aguiding point of view.
Cass Fleming (50:03):
Yes.
Dodge Keir (50:06):
Education hunt's very different, but I like what
you said earlier and Chris, hebrought it up when I had the
podcast with him about differentstyles of guided hunts and you
know some.
You may just pay to go andshoot something and you know
there's some places that offerthat and then there's others
that do the educational side ofthings and I think it's very
important and interesting thatpeople make it clear from a
(50:28):
client point of view as to whatyou expect yes.
Because, as a guide, our job isto find an animal and then get
you to harvest it.
Cass Fleming (50:37):
Yes.
Dodge Keir (50:38):
But if you're looking to get more out of it
and we don't know that it's veryhard to deliver that it's such
a good point, and so I'm onlysharing my perspective of what I
want and what's important to me.
Cass Fleming (50:49):
I don't think there's anything wrong with any
of the styles of guiding, anystyles of hunting, like if you
want to use rifles or bows, orif you want a trophy hunt, or if
you want to harvest meat, or ifyou I mean, I do think that if
you trophy hunt, you should alsoharvest meat.
But there's there's so manyways that you can go about
hunting and so many motivationsyou can have for it.
I don't, I think you know,despite the fact that things are
(51:12):
, I'm finding things quitepositive, and that seems to be a
changing light there.
I think that there is enoughcriticism from the outside in.
I don't think we need to befighting amongst ourselves about
different styles of hunting orwhat's right or wrong or
otherwise.
I think you know, so long aswhat you're doing is ethical and
legal, fill your boots, I don't.
I don't have anything to sayabout anyone else's choices, but
(51:38):
for me the hunt itself isreally important.
So and same with you know, ifyou're spotlighting on private
land because you want to harvestmeat for your freezer, cool,
that's great.
I wouldn't find a sense ofsatisfaction in that because for
me part of it is the patiencethat comes with the stock, with
the whole process of it.
That is something that I careabout and that I want to get out
(51:59):
of it.
But you know, everyone hastheir own motivations and that's
cool.
Like that's actually reallyinteresting.
Dodge Keir (52:06):
Beth, right at the start you said your background
was long range precision riflesort of things.
Yeah, I did that for about.
I'm sorry.
Cass Fleming (52:12):
Yeah, rifle sort of things.
Yeah, I did that for about.
I'm sorry.
Dodge Keir (52:15):
Yeah, no, you go, I'm sorry.
Cass Fleming (52:16):
I was going to say , yeah, I did that for probably
about a year before I decided toget into hunting.
Dodge Keir (52:20):
There's an interesting part of the
community that frowns uponlong-range hunting.
Cass Fleming (52:27):
Yes, yeah.
Dodge Keir (52:28):
And whether you've come across it or not, what are
your thoughts on that and how?
Like you said that you'd behappy to take something up to,
you know 300 metres or so, butyou know guys shooting 700, 800
metres.
And then the general consensusis oh, that's not hunting,
because the animal had no ideayou were there.
And my rebuttal to that, beforeyou get to answer, is the ideal
(52:52):
archery hunt is getting to sub30 without the animal knowing
you're there.
Yes so you know, is it the samebut at a different skill set.
The skill set's in the shooting, less so in the stalking.
Cass Fleming (53:04):
Yeah, I really.
So it still just comes back tome if it's legal and if it's
ethical.
If you're not proficient enoughto take a shot over that
distance, then no, I don't thinkthat's great because it's
fundamentally not ethical.
But if you can do it and ifthat's the way that you enjoy to
shoot, and if you, by stalkingup on an animal, spook it and
(53:27):
then it ends up not being asproficient, then maybe that's
not as good.
I don't think it's inherentlywrong to do long-range hunting.
So long as you know what you doLike, so long as you're good
enough to do it, go for it.
Dodge Keir (53:42):
I think their issue is the word you know, calling
and hunting, as opposed tolong-range shooting at a live
target.
Cass Fleming (53:49):
Yeah, yeah, righto , I don't know, it's not
something.
I guess I've thought about alot.
It's not something I want to doeither.
So you know, I don't haveprobably a strong opinion on it.
But I don't know there's,there's people doing all sorts
of you know weird and wonderfulthings that are not not
(54:12):
representing the huntingindustry.
Well, the hunting community, Idon't think the long-range
hunting is.
Dodge Keir (54:17):
It's one of them.
Cass Fleming (54:18):
I don't think that's one of them.
Dodge Keir (54:20):
On that topic.
There's some comments that cameabout from your article, where
it was on the Landline specificpage, when they shared that they
were going to have it as the TVepisode and you know a lady
commented about why do we needto kill animals in this day and
age, or something was alongthose lines.
And the comments from huntersinverted commas, one
(54:45):
particularly, you know I thinkhis word was eftard, you know
called her whatever and justblasted her for not
understanding what we do and whywe do what we do.
And I commented and just saidlike I think that's a terrible
answer.
Also, hers might be from ourpoint of view, but I think his
(55:10):
answer was worse.
Cass Fleming (55:13):
Oh yep.
Dodge Keir (55:14):
I're navigating negative comments and my comment
back was oh, he said that shewould believe whatever she reads
.
I said okay, well, give hersomething to read yeah give her
some facts and figures yeah youknow it.
That's, that's my way ofdealing with those sorts of
comments.
It's just okay.
I can understand why you mightthink that we waste the meat.
(55:36):
However, x, y, z, here's apicture of my cool room and my
kids enjoying some sausages wemade.
Cass Fleming (55:43):
Yeah, absolutely.
That's the thing, though, like Ithink sometimes people do get
very defensive and the way thatthey respond does more damage
than good, and I feel no need totry and convince anyone of
anything.
Absolutely happy to shareperspectives, and if someone is
curious and willing to consideranother point of view, then
(56:05):
excellent.
Some people aren't, and that'sokay too.
I'd rather spend my energyinteracting with the people that
want to discuss and considerwhat hunting is all about, but,
yeah, I don't think we're goingto, you know, help our cause by
(56:26):
criticising other people orgetting butt hurt because
someone doesn't like what we do.
Dodge Keir (56:31):
I think some of my best conversations over the
years have been with people likethat lady.
I'm not going to say that she'sone of them, but you know, when
you get to really sit down andunderstand why they think what
they think.
Something happened in the pastor something, or it's quite
often a misconception.
Oh, we thought that hunters dothis.
Cass Fleming (56:49):
Yes, absolutely.
Dodge Keir (56:51):
Let's say that some of them might, but that's not
the norm yes, it's not what wetry to achieve and, yeah, you
know, for these reasons so, andI think we need to then be able
to sit there and listen to theirside, though, too, and that
that's what gets forgotten.
Cass Fleming (57:05):
We all want to tell them why we're right, but
let's have a listen to why theythink we're wrong absolutely,
and it's so interesting the moreyou talk to anyone, the more
you say that there's just thisinteresting fact about every
single person on the planet, butalso the reason why they
believe what they believe is acollection of their own
experiences through life.
And when you can have thatconversation about how they
(57:26):
arrived at a particular thought,then there's sometimes an
opportunity to add a differentperspective that they can take
on board.
But without knowing how theygot there, you've got no
potential insights to be able torelate to their experience.
So you know, you're just makingall these assumptions and we
don't like assumptions beingmade about us, so you know let's
(57:50):
not do it to anyone else yeah?
Dodge Keir (57:52):
It goes both ways, I think.
The whole industry.
We're so used to beingvictimised not victimised,
demonised, I suppose and madeout to be the baddies.
A lot of guys go around withtheir hackles up all the time.
Cass Fleming (58:04):
Yeah.
Dodge Keir (58:04):
And it's hard to remove that and yeah.
I think, finding out where thecomment's coming from on the
other side is the key.
Yes, absolutely, and usingtheir own language.
Cass Fleming (58:14):
Yep, yeah for sure .
Dodge Keir (58:17):
Well, thanks for coming on tonight, cass, I
appreciate it.
Cass Fleming (58:20):
Thanks for having me, josh, learning a bit about
you.
Dodge Keir (58:24):
No, thanks for coming, we've spoken a fair bit
in the past, but it's nice tohave these longer chats and see
what you're thinking and what?
You're feeling.
One of my favorite topicshunting, hunting, yeah, likewise
, it takes up about 92% of mybrain capacity how good.
So it's an interesting pastimeand I love meeting new people
and listening about theirexperiences.
So thanks for sharing yours.
I look forward to catching upin the future in the hills
(58:46):
somewhere.
Cass Fleming (58:47):
Yeah, likewise.
Dodge Keir (58:48):
Until next time, we'll talk to you soon.
Cass Fleming (58:50):
See you then.
Bye, until next time.
We'll talk to you soon.
See you then.
Music.
I guess just how you conductyourself Everything before
pulling the trigger, and theneverything after as well.
I'd never butchered an animalbefore, or didn't know sort of
how to treat the meat once it isbutchered.
So I wanted to do a course, soI went along and did the course.
If you do have the opportunityI was presented this opportunity
to be involved in somethingthat I care about I'm not going
to be like, I'm not going toassume that I'm just there
(00:30):
because it's token, because I'mfemale.
Dodge Keir (00:31):
I'm sure death's probably not new to you, but how
did that feel the first timeyou physically yourself shot an
animal?
Welcome back to another episodeof accurate hunts life outdoors
(00:53):
we have tonight with us cassjoining us from marabinol.
That's right.
Yes, like I said it, right,cass fleming cass and I met on
the side of a dusty road atnundle state forest, I think
officially the first time yes,that's right.
Cass Fleming (01:05):
Yes, we did Drive along.
Saw some interesting charactersin camo on the side of the road
.
Dodge Keir (01:10):
Yeah, our camo obviously wasn't working.
Cass Fleming (01:12):
No.
Dodge Keir (01:13):
It's an awkward situation when you're in a state
forest and you're walking alongthe road with a rifle.
I feel that I'm torn betweenhiding, because it's just easier
to hide or you know you're notdoing anything wrong, but
avoiding the confrontation byhiding.
Cass Fleming (01:31):
I think if you hide, you have to make sure
you've done a really good job atit, because it's way creepier
to have someone trying to likehide and not being successful
rather than just going abouttheir business.
Dodge Keir (01:42):
That's right, it's a half.
Yeah, you can't do it by half,because if you do it by half
it's really creepy.
Cass Fleming (01:48):
It is.
It's really effective, I think.
Dodge Keir (01:51):
I can't remember who .
It was told me that I think itwas one of the boys from one of
the other podcasts.
They were saying that they gotpulled up by someone on the road
and the cops ended up turningup.
They were in a state forest.
They weren't doing anythingwrong, but the ruling was that
she said that she feltthreatened because he had a
(02:11):
firearm.
Right he didn't threaten her.
Cass Fleming (02:15):
Yeah.
Dodge Keir (02:16):
But she felt threatened and that was enough
to warrant, you know, a warningfrom the cops.
Because she felt threatened.
Cass Fleming (02:22):
That's a tricky situation, isn't it?
Dodge Keir (02:24):
Yeah, especially when you're not doing anything
wrong.
It's like shooting a bow andarrow in a public place, like at
a field or sports field orsomething.
As long as you're not, as longas no one's physically feeling
threatened by it, it'scompletely legal.
Cass Fleming (02:37):
Yeah.
Dodge Keir (02:38):
So, but we weren't just walking around the forest
in Nundle that's not how westumbled across each other, but
we were up there for theAustralian Hunters Club annual
camp last year.
Cass Fleming (02:46):
That's exactly right.
Dodge Keir (02:50):
I was expecting to see hunters not confronting Adam
.
No, no, you didn't feelthreatened.
No, I did not Were you lost.
You came from the wrongdirection.
Cass Fleming (02:57):
I was on my way back from a road trip to Fraser
Island.
Dodge Keir (03:01):
Yeah, that's right I was?
Cass Fleming (03:02):
I was heading South Yep.
Dodge Keir (03:04):
And you had some mechanical issues.
Cass Fleming (03:06):
I did yes, my, my car, ron.
His name's Ron, cause he'sBurgundy.
He um his radiator went on theway down on the side of the road
Yep, so that took a couple ofdays to fix.
Dodge Keir (03:18):
Cost you a day.
I think on the way out you hada flat tire too.
Cass Fleming (03:21):
I did on the way out.
Yes, you came to the rescue anda few other boys came along.
Dodge Keir (03:27):
You had all the tools Just at the right time.
Cass Fleming (03:29):
I did, I did and, yeah, was on my way to getting
it done, but happy to receivesome help to gather the logs and
jack it all up because it was,yeah, a bit unstable ground, but
we got there.
Good little team project.
Dodge Keir (03:41):
It was.
It was a good team event toothat one.
Yeah, it really was.
Yeah, it was funny circlingback to that and I've just been
playing with this in front of meand not related to the
conversation at all.
But I have a little pocketknife here that a good friend of
mine made for me.
He's got my name engraved on it.
Dr Yannick made for me.
I think you can buy a kit andhe sort of handmade the scales,
(04:03):
but that there is actually theshin bone from the red stag that
I shot on that trip.
Oh, how good.
So I sent him the bone.
Cass Fleming (04:12):
Yeah, great way to commemorate.
Dodge Keir (04:17):
And he made the wife and I matching set out of it.
Cass Fleming (04:20):
How beautiful.
Dodge Keir (04:21):
Yeah, looking forward to that.
So Cass is with us tonight formultiple reasons.
One because she's reallyenjoying hunting and the journey
that she's on and we'll getinto that, but mostly you might
recognise her from everywhere onFacebook in the last I don't
know 36, 48 hours or so.
Cass Fleming (04:41):
Yeah, the last three days.
Dodge Keir (04:42):
Yeah and yeah.
Cass was featured in an articlethat was done by the ABC
Rhiannon I can't remember thelast name.
Cass Fleming (04:50):
Stephens.
Dodge Keir (04:51):
Stephens was the journalist that produced quite a
well-put-together and topicalpiece about the influx of new
hunters and the way things aregoing down in Victoria
specifically.
But it was nice to see and thisis the general consensus of the
comments is it's nice to see amainstream media do a you know,
(05:13):
nice fluffy piece about huntingand it wasn't, you know, spun in
any particular bad way.
Cass Fleming (05:18):
Yeah, absolutely.
It was a great project to be apart of and when I was, you know
, first considering it, when Iwas approached about it, I had
obviously my hesitations becauseyou know what you sort of hear
and see in the media generally.
But you know, I asked thequestion is this pro-hunting,
anti-hunting?
What's the general vibe of it?
(05:40):
Rhiannon had said it's balancedview.
It's just you giving um, givingan account of of the story, of
my intentions and why I got intohunting, what my motivation was
.
But I think it actually turnedout to be really positive um, so
it was promoted.
I guess it was promised to methat it would be at least
neutral, not anti-hunting, but Ifeel as though it had a really
positive spin on it and it was areally really nice take on on
(06:04):
why people are passionate abouthunting and what it means.
Dodge Keir (06:06):
So yeah, she did a really good job, a really good
job pulling it together, but youguys.
I mean, there was yourselfwally chang um pete from baw baw
and chris waters yeah um, andthat was.
You know, it was a good mix ofnewbies, people on their way,
more experienced people withPete, and I think that was a
(06:27):
really good cross-section toshow that part of the industry.
Cass Fleming (06:31):
I agree I think Rhianna did a great job tying it
all together and sort of thedifferent components of a
hunting journey and differentavenues that you can go down if
you're looking to do hunting.
But I thought also more broadlywithin the whole episode of
Landline.
Abc did a pretty good job atcurating the whole idea of those
.
You know the fruit and whereyour fruit comes from and like
just opening people's minds upto more supply chain and, yeah,
(06:56):
how you access the food that weeat and meat is definitely a
part of that.
Dodge Keir (07:00):
Alternative options.
Alternative options yeah, wasRhianna.
Did she make clear her personalopinions at all?
Cass Fleming (07:09):
She didn't.
I don't think she had.
She was very curious, I thinkit's more her stance on it was
that she just it's not somethingthat she had had a background
in and was just really wantingto see what it was all about and
she was really great to spend aday with actually.
So she came out for a hunt withme.
I picked her up.
We went out in the high country, so we stayed in Benalla and
that was our base so that Icould pick her up first thing in
(07:30):
the morning.
Dodge Keir (07:31):
She jumped in the car with me Was it her and a
cameraman, no, just her.
Cass Fleming (07:34):
So she came with just all the equipment herself.
We jumped in the car, drove alittle way into the bush and
then went out for the day, soshe was stalking around the bush
with me documenting the wholethings.
We had little chats, littlewhispers in the bush, which was
really nice and it was great.
And then on the drive there andon the way home, that's when we
got to have some just generalchats about ourselves and our
(07:57):
lives and what we're all about,and it was a really nice
experience.
Actually, is that your firsttime being on TV?
Dodge Keir (08:02):
And it was a really nice experience actually, is
that?
Cass Fleming (08:05):
your first time being on TV, yeah, first.
Yes, I have been in a movieclip, not a what are they called
a video clip, like a song videoclip in the past as an extra,
but you know it was definitelyNot as the lead singer.
Oh, no, no, it was.
Yeah, someone I used to workwith their daughter was like a
producer or something andthey're like we need extras.
(08:25):
So no, yes, definitely my firsttime of being front and centre
on TV.
Dodge Keir (08:33):
Did you think that in your first time being on TV,
some of your first words wouldbe and here you have, deer poop.
Cass Fleming (08:40):
I didn't.
You know.
If you had asked me before Istarted hunting, like what will
I be on TV for?
It probably wouldn't have beenmy guess.
And that's funny, actually,because prior to hunting I never
would have thought it could beso exciting to find poo Like it.
Just it would not have enteredmy consciousness that, yeah,
that you could be like.
Oh my gosh, like this sign, I'mon the right track.
There's definitely deer here.
Dodge Keir (09:01):
You don't have any kids, do you?
Cass Fleming (09:03):
I do not no, no.
Dodge Keir (09:04):
So it's just.
I'm on my third now and he'sfour and a half nearly five
months, and my camera roll.
Not so much with this one, butthe first two is poop.
It's just an exciting thingwith children.
There's different styles ofpoop, colours of poop,
consistencies of poop, how farthey can get it up their armpits
.
Yeah, poop's an, they can getit up their armpits.
It's, yeah, poops and anexciting topic for those types
(09:25):
of things.
But it was a goodrepresentation of beginner
hunters.
And then it broke into Wallytalking about you know why he
does what he does on his phone.
Cass Fleming (09:36):
Yeah, yeah, and.
Dodge Keir (09:37):
I haven't met.
Actually, I did meet Wally downat Deer Expo.
Cass Fleming (09:41):
Yes, yep.
Dodge Keir (09:41):
He was down there just chatting with Chris, but I
seem to think that that you know, he's just an older guy that is
really enjoying learning inlife and he's like, well, why
can't I just get other people tolearn with me at the same time?
Yeah and that's why he'shosting what he's doing.
So you went and did a course athis place I did, yes.
Cass Fleming (10:01):
So that was my like sort of first experience in
learning about deer hunting.
So I've grown up aroundfirearms They've never been
foreign or exotic but I wasn'tinto hunting.
I knew of hunting, never had aproblem, probably actually had
curiosity about it when I wasyounger, but not deliberately
pursued it to get into it.
(10:21):
So I was doing long-range rifleshooting.
So I was pretty confident thatif I found a deer so I was doing
long range rifle shooting so Iwas pretty confident that if I
found a deer, so I was shootingout to 900 meters.
And well, you know, at 900 it'squite a big target.
But like I was quite proficientwithin 300 meters and I thought
, well, deer are going to becloser than that.
So I was pretty confident thatif I found a deer I'd be able to
take an accurate shot.
But it was everything before andeverything after pulling the
(10:44):
trigger that was a real mysteryto me.
So how to find deer, what arethe ethics that go along with
hunting, and the etiquette aswell in terms of when you you
know, if you get to know otherhunters and, yeah, I guess, just
how you conduct yourself,everything before pulling the
trigger and then everythingafter as well.
I'd never butchered animalbefore or um didn't know sort of
(11:04):
how to treat the meat once itis butchered, um, so I wanted to
do a course.
I went along and did the coursewith naturally sufficient,
which was excellent, um, it wasa whole weekend and we did all
the different legalconsiderations, treatment of
firearms, um the butchering.
We looked at recipes and thewhole process, I guess, which
(11:28):
was really great.
I've also done a course withthe ADA.
I'm a member of the AustralianDeer Association as well.
Dodge Keir (11:34):
Member, aren't you on the committee?
Cass Fleming (11:36):
I am on the committee.
Yes, I do like to get involved,so yeah, which is very exciting
also.
Dodge Keir (11:44):
Head badge maker.
I have offered to get involved,so yeah, which is very exciting
also, is that head badge maker.
Cass Fleming (11:46):
I have offered to make badges, yes.
Dodge Keir (11:51):
Side note Cass made some badges for the Hunters Club
catch-up.
Cass Fleming (11:55):
Yeah.
Dodge Keir (11:57):
That's a little side note, but yeah, so you've
worked your way into ADA andthen you did a course with them.
They do a beginner huntercourse too, yeah yes, which was
actually really fantastic theway.
Cass Fleming (12:05):
So the one I did with naturally sufficient, was
before I'd actually gone outmyself into the wild.
So, um, it was really a goodstarting place.
But then I did go out a numberof times.
I did a guided hunt with petefrom board board adventures, who
you mentioned earlier.
Um, which was fantastic.
So it's not, I guess, like ifyou don't know what a guided
hunt is, you might think thatit's like what you might see in
(12:27):
movies, where someone takes youand puts you on an animal and
all you do is pull the trigger.
Certainly not the case withpete.
He is very educational, so wewould drive along and then he'd
point out the window where therewas marks, you know, where you
could see um, tracks, um, orhe'd point out the poo and talk
about the wind and what we'redoing and as we were doing the
(12:48):
process just putting, I guess,the practical elements in place
with the theoretical elementsthat we'd learnt, which was
really helpful.
We did get close to deer acouple of times when I went out
with him, but the wind was notkind and didn't get close enough
to take a shot.
So, yeah, anyway, then I'd goneout a number of times.
(13:09):
I had one.
I've so far had one successfulhunt, which was on a trip away
with some guys that I'd metthrough the ADA, and so that was
great.
I had my real-world experience.
And then I did the course withthe ADA, and it was actually
really nice because some of thethings that I had learnt prior
(13:32):
were in the course, so it was, Iguess, handy to see just how
much I have learnt in the lasttwo years, but then there were
heaps of new gems as well.
I think you'll never stoplearning, and I certainly won't
ever feel as though I havereached a point of all knowledge
, so it was nice to receive allthese new little pieces of
information that I couldassimilate in with my current
(13:53):
knowledge and just keep building.
And meeting new people as wellis always great, it's.
I really enjoy the huntingcommunity, so like to to be a
part of it, and it was a weekendaway where you get all your
meals cooked for you and get tojust hang out and have good
times sounds like a pretty goodlittle holiday.
Dodge Keir (14:12):
Yeah, yeah, it was great at the start there.
You spoke about etiquette andhow that works as being a new
hunter.
Do you want to share a littlebit about that and what, what
your feelings are on that?
Because, yeah, I feel like atdifferent stages of the I don't
want to call it a ladder maybedifferent stages of progress,
the etiquette changes a littlebit, because you've got, I want
to say, people more experiencedthan you and then people less
(14:35):
experienced than you, and thenyour responsibilities to each as
you travel down that chain.
Cass Fleming (14:39):
Yeah, I guess I don't like to ever assume what a
situation is.
I like to be quite explicitwith what I'm hoping for and
also like to know what otherpeople's expectations are.
And because there areoutfitters that will take you
out and you pay to go on aguided hunt or, you know, there
are some experienced people thathave probably just as much or
even more knowledge than thosepeople which some people want to
(15:02):
take people out as friends andsome people do it as a business.
So I didn't want to ever beasking anyone to give me their
knowledge for free, unless itwas something that they're
wanting to do as part of acommunity.
So it's like that kind of thefact that for some people it's a
day job and for some peopleit's a hobby um, not wanting to
sort of blur any lines or, ummake assumptions about what was
(15:26):
happening, but then also as well, you know, if someone were to
share knowledge with me, thatmight be knowledge that they've
built up over a really long time.
That's specific to an area thatthey may not want to share.
I think a lot of people doshare their knowledge and that's
really lovely when they want to, but I just think that's their
IP.
They've done the work to gatherthat and if they're wanting to
(15:49):
share that with me, myassumption is, unless they say
to share it further than myself,I wouldn't want to do that.
So it's just making sure thatI'm, I guess, being mindful of
the community that I'm cominginto and wanting to be
respectful of everyone in it.
Dodge Keir (16:07):
We spoke today when we were getting ready for this,
but we spoke about my thoughtson the way I think the community
is changing in that passing onof knowledge.
And I think that I mean I'm afirst-generation hunter.
It's no secret, I've spokenabout it a lot and I think
that's quite prevalent intoday's community.
(16:30):
But I think that that'saffecting the way that we share
knowledge in a good way, meaningthat traditionally that
knowledge was passed from fatherto son or uncle or great-uncle
or whatever usually a maleinfluence older in life and then
that's passed on through thelineage of name son, nephew,
(16:54):
whatever and then it's expectedthat it stays there until they
pass it onto their sons.
But I feel that with thisincrease in first-generation
hunters that don't have that,we're leaning on social media
and blogs and forums and TVshows and YouTubes for our
information.
But once we get involved in acommunity and we find some other
first-generation hunters, weall seem a little bit more
(17:16):
excited to share that knowledge.
Yeah, absolutely.
I think that's well.
I think it's a positive.
I'm not sure where it's goingto head long-term, but I mean, I
probably wasn't like thatinitially because I felt a bit
guarded about my information,because that's what everyone did
, but now it's really turning acorner.
I think it's very, and we seeit in.
(17:37):
There's an Australian HuntersClub chat for members and
someone will put up hey, haveyou ever hunted in X?
And someone will message themor put a message up and say I've
sent you a PM, let's chat.
And that just doesn't.
I just don't think that's theway it was, and I think that's
the way it is now, and I'mlooking forward to seeing where
that goes.
Cass Fleming (17:57):
Oh, absolutely, and my experience has been that
most people that I've had chatswith have been happy to share
not always explicit detailsabout their location,
necessarily, but a lot of youknow information about how to
best hunt or different tips, andI think there's a lot of one
percenters that you gather alongyour journey that will
ultimately help lead you towardssuccess.
(18:18):
So I've had really goodexperience.
I guess I just don't go inexpecting that people will just
hand me all their knowledge, but, like, as you get to know
people and then you are part ofthe community, then there is
that sense of camaraderie andeveryone wanting to sort of work
together, which is really nice,and I feel a personal
(18:39):
responsibility to equip myself.
So, you know, I've done a lotof my own research and I've done
the courses and read differentresources to try and find my own
information.
But there's something reallynice about being able to share
the journey with other people,with like-minded people.
So it's not just about you know, going in and trying to get all
(18:59):
their knowledge, it's aboutbecoming friends and having
shared experiences, which I findreally enjoyable.
And you mentioned before about,I guess, like the changing
landscape, and I'm always reallymindful of not wanting to
discount anyone or anyone else'sexperience in their hunting
journey, because sometimespeople talk about hunting and
(19:23):
how they've copped a lot offlack in their hunting journey
and so you know that'sunfortunate, that that has been
the case In my case.
Most people that I've talkedabout my hunting with, most
non-hunters that I've talkedabout, they've been more curious
than anything, and obviouslythere's some people that are not
(19:44):
interested in talking about itand that's fine.
I don't feel the need toconvince anyone of why hunting
is great, but, yeah, a lot ofpeople are just yeah, curious.
How did you get into that?
Oh, that's, oh, that'ssurprising.
What's that all about?
Or, um, which is really reallynice, and I I hope that more and
(20:04):
more hunters have thatexperience as they're going
through their journey, so thatit's not it's not.
I don't see it as taboo.
I talk about it very matter offact.
If someone's like, what are youup to on the weekend?
I'm going out for a hunt, oryou know, I, you know, made a
curry and it had venison and itwas delicious, and um, yeah, I,
I don't um, I don't assume thatpeople will have a negative um
(20:29):
view of of hunting, but I knowthey might, but I'm not going to
make that assumption.
Dodge Keir (20:35):
I had a client the other day and I just in
conversation, just fencingrelated client, and I said, oh,
what do you do for work?
And he lent in and he said, oh,I'm a magistrate.
Okay, you know you know yeahjust like what you're saying,
then I'm going hunting like itnormal.
I don't know why he felt theneed to particularly whisper
(20:57):
that.
Yes, it's not like he'd seen me, you know, at his work before,
in front of him fighting a caseor anything, but you know I'm
always pretty loud and proudabout what we do.
Yeah, and have you used yourfood to, you know, share with
non-hunters at work or anything?
Cass Fleming (21:15):
Not food to, you know, share with non-hunters at
work or anything.
Not so much, I guess, like Ihaven't harvested a lot of meat
myself, in that I've shared itwith friends and family, but not
I haven't had it in thequantities I guess that I have
taken into work.
But it's certainly somethingthat I would do in the future.
(21:35):
Yeah, probably something that'sreally like palatable, maybe
some sausage rolls or somethingthat's just little bite size,
little morsel to just, you know,get people started yeah, I
wouldn't say confused, but I tryto.
Dodge Keir (21:49):
when I'm introducing food like game meat to
non-hunters, I stick withsomething they already know.
Like you said, sausage rolls,yeah, and just change one
ingredient, just change theprotein.
Yeah.
Don't go with something crazyand say, oh, this is, you know,
backstrap stuff with mushroomsthat I've harvested and found
myself in the forest.
That's you know.
Cass Fleming (22:08):
that's a bit confronting for me, yeah, a bit
of tongue just like slitheredoff with a bit of cheese.
Dodge Keir (22:14):
Yeah, it's not something I've ever eaten tongue
.
I don't think.
I don't think I've ever gonedown that path.
I haven't either.
Cass Fleming (22:19):
I haven't either, but at one of the camps that I
was at recently, yeah, one ofthe guys was boiling up a tongue
and then slicing it off and, Idon't know, garnishing it with
something.
Dodge Keir (22:27):
Apparently it's really yum, the same with heart.
I mean.
I have eaten it.
It's not one of the ones I gofor first.
I was just in Darwin two weeksago and there's a picture of the
client holding a buffalo heartand this thing is just ginormous
, like the size of a dinnerplate.
That's like a whole meal initself.
With the circling back to thecommunity side of things, part
(22:51):
of, I'm going to mention Chrisagain.
But Chris is the reason thatyou know you and I met
originally.
I suppose you know he startedthe australian hunters club for
certain reasons and one of thosemain reasons was to start a
community of you know,like-minded people and it's
created like a.
You know this.
When you say like-minded, wehave one thing in common, which
(23:12):
is hunting, but it's such abroad spectrum of knowledge base
and skill level.
And one thing I really likeabout it is people have the
opportunity to leave at any timeand most of the people that do
that are ones that say I didn'tget anything out of it, and I'm
actually, I think you are aswell.
We're on the admin side of oneof the Facebook pages attached
(23:33):
to that club.
Cass Fleming (23:37):
And one of my questions to those people that
want to leave is what did youput in?
Dodge Keir (23:39):
100?
Yep, what did you put in?
And this goes back to any club,and I see this here with our
local hunting club.
I've got it here on my shirt,would you care?
Every hunters and english andthere's some members of that
that just I was mentioning tosomeone the other day.
There's one particular memberand he's pretty new to it all.
He'd be one of the first peopleI ask to go hunting if I just
want to go on a casual hunt,because he's the first one to
(24:01):
put his hand up to help.
He's the last one therecleaning up.
You know he comes to all theevents and he lives the furthest
away.
Cass Fleming (24:08):
Yeah.
Dodge Keir (24:09):
You know he's put in so much, so you know more than
willing to.
I'm not saying I don't helpothers either, but it's
definitely nicer helping someonewho is doing these things in
being involved in clubs withoutexpecting anything in return
absolutely.
Cass Fleming (24:24):
I think, like you said, what you, you have to put
something in to get somethingout of it.
Um, and there's a lot of joy indoing that too.
Like that's sometimes whenyou're sort of not that it's in
the trenches, but when you'redoing the work with people.
That's when you get to bond alittle bit and you share the
load and you know you want to domore with the people that are
(24:44):
contributing to an organisation,rather than the ones that are
just sitting around waiting forit to all be given to them.
I mean, in my journey, likewith the Australian Hunters Club
, there's the option to host ahunt, where you can, as you know
, invite people to come alongand go out for a hunt with you.
When I first joined, I didn'tknow what I was doing, so I'm
not going to be like, hey, I'mgoing to host a hunt because I
(25:05):
mean, yeah, sure, let's, we cango wander around the bush
together, but I'm stillacquiring my knowledge and happy
to impart it once as I gatherit.
My knowledge, and happy toimpart it once as I gather it.
And even sorry, quick detour,but even when I took out
Rhiannon from the ABC, I said toher so long as this is not an
educational thing, because Imean, I know quite a bit of
stuff now that I've acquired,but I'm not presuming to be a
(25:27):
teacher in this space or anexpert in this space.
You can come out and we can goin the bush and I can, you know,
share things that I've learnt,but I'm not going to be teaching
or instructing.
I'm not, like you know,proclaiming to do that, but
anyway.
So through the AustralianHunters Club, I knew I couldn't
host a hunt but I did a coupleof pub dinners and I volunteered
at the expo and the wild deerexpo, but then also the
(25:50):
Mansfield Hunting and FishingExpo, because that's ways in
which I can give of my time tothe club and then, you know, in
return there's benefits that Iget.
And it's the same with the ADA.
I've now volunteered to be onthe committee and happy to make
badges and you know I've got allsorts of ideas.
I'm trying not to do too muchall guns blazing, but yeah, I
(26:13):
really like investing in thethings that I care about and I
think often some people, yeah,they're like oh, you know, I'm
not getting anything out of it,but if they're not putting
themselves into it either, thenit's not really surprising.
Dodge Keir (26:26):
I think that applies to everything in life.
Cass Fleming (26:28):
Definitely.
Dodge Keir (26:29):
Work, sport, any hobby you want to take on.
I think that the majority of myfriends I'm going to say 95%
now have come from the huntingcommunity and I had a young
fellow at work the other day.
He's an apprentice working forone of the other mobs and you
know, he's only 17 or somethingand he was going out with his
mates that's right, it wasFriday.
(26:49):
He was going out with his matesfrom school who he hasn't seen
and I said said, are you stillfriends with many friends from
school?
He said yeah, all of them.
And I remember at some point inmy life I was like I don't
really have anything in commonwith those people I went to
school with and you start todrift away from that.
And then that's when I've sortof accumulated and found this
circle of friends that now mybest friends they're all have
(27:11):
come from this hunting communityyeah, I've met some great
people in my journey as well, soI think it's really many bad
ones you know what, throughthrough I've, I've come across
people that I'm like I don'twant to be.
Cass Fleming (27:26):
I would not choose to be friends with you, um, but
not as in like when volunteertheo, like you get some
interesting characters come upand have a chat.
But no, through my sort of Iwould say, not official channels
, but through the clubs thatI've joined, I've not met anyone
that I just thought, nah,you're a bad egg, I'm not.
(27:46):
You know, I don't want to knowyou.
There's some people that I getalong more than others, just
like anywhere in life.
You know, you find your peopleand there are some people that
you really like and some peoplethat you're like, happy to be
around but not going to bebesties with.
But no, all pretty goodexperiences, yeah.
Dodge Keir (28:02):
With the article.
I've been trying to think abouthow to word this question.
I don't really know how, so I'mjust going to say it.
Cass Fleming (28:09):
Yeah.
Dodge Keir (28:09):
I think it got shared better because there was
a female on the front.
I think it got shared betterbecause there was a female on
the front.
I think it had a much larger,wider spread impact.
And I just want to ask how do Ieven say it Barriers to entry
into the hunting industry?
Being a female, have you foundit's been like eaten?
(28:32):
You can't even compare becauseyou're not a male.
But you know, what's yourexperience being a female
starting in industry?
Cass Fleming (28:41):
yeah so, because people have asked me this before
, like what's it like?
And yeah, so sometimes I willbe at a meeting and it, you know
, I remember one of the ADAmeetings that I went to.
There was probably like 70blokes there and the percentage
of women was me Like um,absolutely it is male dominated,
but for me, I think it's like alot of things in life, whatever
(29:01):
you look for, you will find.
And if I looked for reasons tofeel like I was unwelcome
because I'm female, you couldprobably find it.
But also if I look for reasonsthat people are including me,
I'll find that.
But also if I look for reasonsthat people are including me,
I'll find that.
And so one example is I rememberbeing at one meeting I think it
was maybe like the second timeI was there this is at the ADA
(29:24):
and I walked in and, if you know, a few people were there, sort
of chatting and stuff, and noone came up and said hi, I had
met a few people before, but Ithink they maybe weren't there
when I arrived this particulartime.
And you know, I absolutelycould have been like oh, I'm a
woman, they don't want to talkto me, but I don't like to make
that assumption.
Everyone has a different, likedifferent skills around social
(29:47):
skills and how they can interactwith people.
Some blokes don't know how totalk to women I'm not going to
assume that you know like that'sanything offensive.
But anyway, in this moment Iwas like well, I have also not
approached anyone, so I'll justgo and chat to someone.
Went over, found someone's likehey, hi, are you new here too?
(30:09):
And they're like yeah, this ismy.
I think it was theirresponsibility for deciding how
they show up in an area and alsokeeping their own emotions and
perceptions in check.
Obviously, there are somedifferences of what my
experience would probably be tomen.
(30:30):
So, in terms of I want to be apart of a community, I like to
have friends in the activitiesthat I do and my pool of people
to make those friends in ispredominantly men.
It's not like there's men andwomen and I'm just.
I'm like I just want to befriends with the blokes, like
that's my option, like it is abunch of blokes and that's fine.
(30:53):
Um, I remember when I went to myfirst camp um with the ada,
like actually, oh, the firstcamp with um, australian hunters
club was awesome as well, Idefinitely felt extremely
welcome there.
There was eight of us and wewere out in um razorback hut,
which was really cool, um, but Iarrived in the daytime then, so
that was, that was cool.
We had, you know, chats aroundthe bar and stuff.
But this other camp, my firstADA camp I arrived at about 9.30
(31:16):
at night, went in through likethis bumpy entryway, so I
accidentally pressed my horn asI was arriving.
So I'm like beep, oh hey,everyone.
That was my entrance.
That was my entrance and I rockup and there's probably like 20
blokes sitting around the fire.
I had met a few before but itwas heaps of new people and
stuff and a few people were like, oh you know like, good on you
for coming out, like you knowlike, but it just it didn't feel
(31:39):
weird to me.
I was like this is a space Iwant to be in and no one has
told me that it's not for me.
I don't, I it's not like.
There's hunting and women'shunting and that's the one I'm
meant to be in and that's theone I'm meant to be in.
It's hunting and anyone can goto it.
It just happens to attract moremen and that's fine.
I would love to encourage morepeople to get into hunting, but
(32:04):
anyone that's interested inhunting, not specifically just
targeting women.
But I guess my point if youknow if I was talking to anyone
about hunting and what myjourney is like it's that go in
open-minded and I guess don'ttry, and I've not wanted to
change the space or say thatyou've got to do this, this and
this for me to feel welcome.
I decide whether I'm confidentenough to be in that space or
(32:27):
not, and I feel that I am.
No one has been, no one has saidoh, what are you doing here as
a woman?
A lot of people are good onyour love, and I mean some.
Some people even have a problemwith being called love.
I don't, I am lovely, call melove, that's fine.
Um, I don't need men to changewho they are or change how they
behave for me to feel welcome.
And if I did, then that'sthat's for me to solve and work
(32:48):
out and remedy myself, not to,not to begrudge an organization
that's running how it is alreadyand it's the same with you.
Know, there's a few people thathave made comments about you
know.
Oh, some blokes don't want thedrama, they don't want women,
they don't want this.
And I'm like, mate, if youdon't want to be friends with a
woman, if you don't have thecapacity for that, don't
(33:09):
befriend women.
Like, don't get your knickersin a twist.
It's not that hard to figureout.
I don't want to.
I don't want to be friends witheveryone either.
So it's, I don't know.
Yeah, anyway, I think.
Sorry, I think I've gone off ontangents to your original
question, but yeah, it's, it ispossible that there.
I mean it probably is true thatthe article was shared more
(33:30):
because it's female, and butthat's that's like a lot of
things in life If something popsup that's unusual, people are
intrigued by it.
Dodge Keir (33:40):
I think that Rhiannon did a good job in
choosing that particular photo,and I'd be interested to know
whether she just personallyliked that photo more than you
know one of Wally or one of Peteor you know, whatever it was.
Cass Fleming (33:49):
Yeah.
Dodge Keir (33:50):
But I think that a really, especially coming from
the ABC news channels andlandline really challenge some
of their regular watchers whoyou know might see hunting as a
purely male-dominated sport, andthey're like hold on, there's a
female with a firearm.
That goes against what I kindof picture in my mind as the
stereotype.
Cass Fleming (34:09):
Yeah, I'm interested, I'm intrigued, yes,
and hopefully so, and it'scertainly not like I'm
trailblazing at all.
There are some amazing womenthat are in the hunting realm.
So Emma Sears is one of thespeakers that was at the ADA
weekend and she was fantastic.
She's been hunting for a numberof years and is a really great
example, and there's heaps ofothers that you know have been
(34:32):
doing it for a really long time.
So it's not like I'm comingalong being like I'm the first
to do this, but you know, Ithink it is uncommon or less
common.
Dodge Keir (34:49):
So it's fine.
If that causes intrigue, so beit, so be it.
One name that I remember fromback in the day and I don't know
where she's going actually Ishould try and find out but uh,
christy basani is her name andshe actually competed in a.
It was in texas in a huntress,uh, heart of the huntress, I
think it was called competition,and she was from queensland.
(35:10):
She was a bow hunter and youknow she ended up on the project
and old Waleed gave her a bitof curry on there about.
She's a paramedic and they'resaying you know how can you save
lives but take lives?
But the way she handed herselfin that interview was just, you
know, it was great, it was greatfor the industry and but that
you know she made it.
If there was an Australian maleoverseas competing in that
(35:33):
course, there'd be no interestin that from the project.
Cass Fleming (35:36):
Yeah.
Dodge Keir (35:37):
Yeah.
Cass Fleming (35:39):
You know what it's always.
These things are supply anddemand.
You can't control what peopleare interested in or what
they'll pick up on it, but ifyou do have the opportunity I
was presented this opportunityto be involved in something that
I care about I'm not going tobe like, I'm not going to assume
that I'm just there becauseit's token, because I'm female.
Maybe that is part of it orpart of the agenda or whatever.
(36:02):
But if, at the end of the day,it promotes something that I
love and I'm able to contributeto it positively, why would I
not be involved?
It just makes sense.
Dodge Keir (36:13):
Just makes sense.
I want to circle way back tosomething you mentioned and it
was that you went on your firsthunt where you were successful
and you were with someone whowas ADA related.
But I want to.
You asked me today.
You're like, oh, what are wegoing to talk about?
And for me it's.
I really enjoy hearing storieswhere you get to recount the
(36:37):
emotions that you actually gothrough, because to me I don't
remember the first time I shotsomething particularly.
I don't remember, you know, thefirst time I handled a dead
animal of some capacity I thinkit was probably a chicken at mum
and dad's when we killed somechickens.
But you know, I'm alwaysintrigued at the way people who
have just come into the sport,maybe later in life, like
(36:58):
yourself you said you've grownup in a farming industry or
farming family and things, soI'm sure death's probably not
new to you, but how did thatfeel to the first time you
physically yourself shot ananimal?
Cass Fleming (37:13):
Lots of emotions, none that I would label as
negative.
They're just all relevant andnecessary.
So my first time that I wassuccessful I guess I'll set the
scene for you.
It was early in the morning,probably a couple hundred metres
off a fire track was walkingalong and saw um, saw a hind
(37:35):
grazing just on the just down agully and up on the opposite
face, and it was fantastic.
She was actually completely inthe open.
So, as opposed to in the pastwhen generally it's you know,
just a tiny little part and I'mpotentially out in the open, um,
but anyway I was was hidden bysome trees, which gave me the
(37:56):
opportunity to sit down and getinto a really stable position
For my first shot.
That was really comforting.
I felt that I was certain that Iwould take an ethical shot
because I was able to see thefull vital area.
I was able to get into a stableposition and then really calmly
take a shot.
I already know that I won't takea running shot, um, where I am
(38:18):
in my journey, I don't feelproficient enough to do so and
I've decided that well before Igo out into the bush, what, what
I will or won't do, what I willor won't shoot um and that's
not just in terms of the settingis I won't take a running shot,
but I also wouldn't take a shotif the hind had a baby.
(38:39):
There's certain things that Ijust won't do, so in this
scenario it was perfectconditions for me.
So, yeah, took my shot, waited,you know, 10 minutes or so,
then went to follow up.
Within probably 10 more minutes, um found, found the hind.
She um would have only probablytraveled 30 meters from where I
(39:02):
shot her to where she laid torest, and then it.
You obviously go on to theprocess of starting to harvest
the meat.
And it felt right because Ialready knew why I was doing
what I'm doing.
I knew that this animal waspeacefully living in the bush
(39:23):
and then, very quickly afterthat, was dead At peace.
At peace, that you know that ithadn't been farmed, she hadn't
been farmed at all.
There was no, you know,transport trauma.
You know that it hadn't beenfarmed, she hadn't been farmed
at all.
There was no, you know,transport trauma.
You know getting trucked around, so that I felt a sense of
(39:44):
satisfaction in knowing wherethis particular meat was going
to come from.
I felt a great deal of gratitude, because the necessary exchange
to consume meat is that ananimal will die.
You're forced to face thatreality when you hunt.
You can't pretend that it'sjust meat, it's an animal that
then becomes meat, and sothere's a real, I guess, respect
(40:07):
to the process when thathappens.
And there, and there is ameasure of sorrow because that,
because of that necessaryexchange, you, you can't avoid
it, you have the animal right infront of you, um, but I feel as
though if I'm going to consumemeat, I can't ignore that fact
and I am going to consume meat.
(40:28):
So, um, yeah, that was sort ofthe main emotions that I felt.
And then, so, yeah, that wassort of the main emotions that I
felt.
And then, yeah, there was acarry out and I felt all sorts
of other emotions on the way out, falling down wombat holes and
sort of climbing up some prettysteep faces.
(40:48):
That felt a lot longer on theway out than they did on the way
in.
But yeah, it's all part of it.
Dodge Keir (40:54):
How much of your courses and education do you
think you remembered at the timewhen you were there cutting up?
Cass Fleming (41:02):
Some of it was.
As I went, I remembered certainthings.
So in the courses that I haddone, it was animals that had
been shot a few days before, sothey were cold and so I wasn't
sure how it would feel with ananimal that was warm.
I was, yeah, that was one thingthat I was like I don't know
(41:24):
how I'm going to feel until Iget there.
But when I did it was fine.
It didn't feel all thatdifferent.
There was a lot less blood thanI expected.
Um, which was it just is whatit was what it was.
But that was interesting Someof it.
I just had to kind of slow downand just think about what I was
doing.
Um, simple things like um,there were certain ligaments to
(41:49):
cut through that it felt likebone and then I realised I had
to actually press harder to makethe cut and then it was like,
okay, that's a learningexperience of how much pressure
that you need to use to achievea particular part of the
butchering.
But it was fine.
(42:10):
I got through it all and Ithink every time I and so I've
done some other butchering inthe course prior and then.
So since that as well, I'vedone some like breaking down of
legs and things at otheropportunities, and every time
you do it, I think you learnmore and more and it becomes
(42:32):
you'll become more efficient.
I think that that that fieldbutchering was probably the
slowest that I'll probably everdo in my life because it was new
and you were, yeah, learning asyou're going.
Dodge Keir (42:42):
Yeah, I think the lack of blood one is interesting
.
I hadn't considered that, butit's definitely not what you
picture.
Well, not what you see onmovies or anything of if
anyone's you's butchering thingson Hollywood.
There's always blood flyingeverywhere.
But from a hunting point ofview, essentially the animal
generally has fully bled outinternally, especially with a
(43:03):
good heart or chest lung shot.
That whole lung cavity justfills with blood.
Obviously there's still someblood in the meat and in the
veins.
But you know, people picture.
I'll give you an example Afriend of mine.
It was his first animal he'dshot and he shot it in the head,
which is fine, it's a good shot.
(43:24):
And then we went to take theback leg off straight away and
he cut the femoral artery and itsprayed him because it was like
we were like you know.
You know, within 30 seconds wewere on top of the animal and
started cutting in less than aminute.
So it, you know, that's whatpeople picture.
That's actually not realisticusually, and that was just
because the heart was stillpumping yeah, but generally yeah
(43:45):
, where did you shoot?
Just in the chest somewhere,you're happy with shot placement
yeah, absolutely, like allthrough the shoulder.
What calibre do you shoot?
Cass Fleming (43:53):
I have .308.
Dodge Keir (43:55):
And you're happy with that I love it.
Cass Fleming (43:57):
Yeah, got a Sauer Classic 100 .308.
I was convinced prior to buyingthis rifle that I was going to
get a Tikka, a Camo Wrap Tikka.308.
I don't know why that was justlike oh, that seems like a good
hunting gun.
But know why that was just likeoh, that that seems like a good
(44:20):
hunting gun.
Um, but then when I went intothe gun store melbourne gun
works they're excellent, veryhelpful um.
So I went in there and held theteaker and it just felt empty.
It was just like this hollow.
And nothing against them.
I'm sure they're fine as a gun,but for me it just didn't feel
right.
And then one of the guys inthere suggested the sour and I
was like, oh, I'll have a, havea look, why not?
And as soon as I held it I waslike yep, like this has a heart,
this is my hunting rifle.
I just knew and it was greatand I've loved it ever since.
Dodge Keir (44:40):
The emptiness that you described.
I know exactly what you feltand to me I mean, I own one, I'm
not going to complain about it,but it feels like a beach
cricket bat yes, yes, it feels,it feels hollow.
Cass Fleming (44:55):
I'm like, yeah, like I'm sure if I smashed on
something, obviously it wouldn't, but like it feels, like it
would just like ting, like itthey're definitely stronger than
you think, but they have thatfeeling yeah, and then that that
comes into play when you'redoing, you know, recoil and
things on larger calibers.
Dodge Keir (45:08):
Yes, yeah extra weight exactly so.
Cass Fleming (45:12):
So you know, obviously it's a little bit more
for the guns as I'm goingaround, but it's fine, I like it
yeah.
Dodge Keir (45:19):
What did you do with the meat on that one?
So you had someone with you orthey turned up.
Were they with you for thewhole hunt?
Cass Fleming (45:24):
Yeah, they were with me for the whole hunt.
Yeah, so they helped.
I put the back straps in mybackpack.
We took one leg each, so thatwas actually very helpful to get
the meat out.
Yeah, took it up to the firetrack and then walked back to my
car from there, drove back downand picked it up and then drove
back.
Dodge Keir (45:43):
Yeah, imagine doing it all by yourself, like it
would be multiple trips.
Cass Fleming (45:47):
Well, it would have been two trips.
I mean, I could have probablydone one leg Nah.
Nah, that's a lot.
I think it would have been twotrips.
Or it would have been like nah,it would have been two trips.
Dodge Keir (45:59):
I think it would have been two trips for me too.
One of the new fellas in ourlocal club here just shot a
Samba the other week and thatwas I think someone was saying
it's the second bullet he'sfired out of that gun at an
animal, yeah right.
And both of them were at thatSamba.
Yeah, it's pretty crazy as hisfirst animal, and then he had it
on the ground and then he'slike what do I do now?
Cass Fleming (46:20):
Yeah.
Dodge Keir (46:25):
You know he said that one of the boys has
suggested I get him on to havethe chat, so I don't want to
tell his full story, but he saidthat all his research leading
up to it was how to find animals.
How to find, yes.
Where do I look?
What am I?
Cass Fleming (46:38):
looking for, and none of his research was what do
I do after I shot one?
Yeah, and obviously that's soimportant, right it's.
You need the whole journey andyou can.
I mean, there's a lot you canlearn in the classroom that
you're still going to sort ofrevise once you're out in
practice and you're going toforget things, and then each
time you're going to learn newthings or whatever.
But you can't stop at thetrigger pull.
The end part of the process isvery important too.
Dodge Keir (47:00):
That is, and Sambra, you know, is the biggest deer
species we have in Australia.
So to shoot one of those, asyour first ones is, you know
it's only downhill from there.
If you shoot a fallow, you'llbe throwing the whole thing on
your backpack.
Cass Fleming (47:13):
Yeah, oh easy.
Dodge Keir (47:15):
Have you got any trips coming up planned?
Cass Fleming (47:18):
Yeah, so next weekend I've got a trip with my
ADA branch, so we'll head awayup to the high country there and
, yeah, hopefully a big success.
But I actually.
So it's not like I'm blasé andI'm like, oh, I don't care if I
get a deer, it's just thatthat's not my only objective.
I I just love being in the bush.
It's time in the bush is neverwasted and every time I'm out
(47:42):
there I'll find something new,something interesting, I'll find
a new plant species I've neverseen, or just listen to the
birds.
I never come back feeling worsethan what I went in.
I just love being out there.
So it's and you know, the campsare great as well just for
camaraderie, networking, havingsome chats.
(48:02):
I want to try and make bread.
I've been getting into bread atthe moment like in the oven,
but I want to try and cook it ona campfire.
So that's going to be one of myexperiments.
I'm going to make up a fewbatches of dough and, yeah, try
and get some good bread.
Dodge Keir (48:16):
Are you?
A sourdough person.
Have you got a starter?
Cass Fleming (48:18):
It's not sourdough , no, it's just so.
It's flour, yeast, salt andwater.
That's it.
You don't have to knead it.
It's so easy and it's sodelicious.
Dodge Keir (48:28):
You can use, like if you picture the tin, that corn
comes in, you know a larger, nota bit bigger than a beer can.
Cass Fleming (48:36):
Yeah.
Dodge Keir (48:37):
And you take the lid off that and you actually cook
it in that in the coals and youmake little individual ones and
then you pop them out andeveryone's got like little.
That sounds like a great idea.
Little dinner rolls.
Cass Fleming (48:46):
Maybe I'll experiment with that too.
Dodge Keir (48:48):
Yeah, you need lots of little cans.
Cass Fleming (48:49):
I'm going to be like a bread scientist and like
making all different things.
I think you just answered.
Dodge Keir (48:54):
I was going to ask you and I said this a few
episodes ago.
It's going to be my newquestion.
I ask everyone and I've failedto do that because I've
forgotten on a few but what doyou consider a successful hunt?
Cass Fleming (49:08):
Yeah.
So a successful hunt it wouldbe that I either come home with
an empty casing or empty hands.
So I don't want to take a shotthat's not successful.
I'm happy to come out with nodeer.
That's no worries, and just notin any conflict of how I've
(49:30):
behaved, how I've conductedmyself while I'm away.
So you know, just making sure Iknow why I'm there, what I'm
doing, and stay in alignmentwith that.
If I see deer, great.
If I shoot a deer, great.
If I see no deer, great.
Those sorts of things don'tindicate success for me.
So long as I've done it alllegally and ethically, that's
fine by me.
That's a good answer.
I like that.
Dodge Keir (49:51):
I'm not at the I don't know, it's partly because
the hunting part is business aswell, but it's.
You know, we get paid onsuccess, and success is
harvesting animals from aguiding point of view.
Cass Fleming (50:03):
Yes.
Dodge Keir (50:06):
Education hunt's very different, but I like what
you said earlier and Chris, hebrought it up when I had the
podcast with him about differentstyles of guided hunts and you
know some.
You may just pay to go andshoot something and you know
there's some places that offerthat and then there's others
that do the educational side ofthings and I think it's very
important and interesting thatpeople make it clear from a
(50:28):
client point of view as to whatyou expect yes.
Because, as a guide, our job isto find an animal and then get
you to harvest it.
Cass Fleming (50:37):
Yes.
Dodge Keir (50:38):
But if you're looking to get more out of it
and we don't know that it's veryhard to deliver that it's such
a good point, and so I'm onlysharing my perspective of what I
want and what's important to me.
Cass Fleming (50:49):
I don't think there's anything wrong with any
of the styles of guiding, anystyles of hunting, like if you
want to use rifles or bows, orif you want a trophy hunt, or if
you want to harvest meat, or ifyou I mean, I do think that if
you trophy hunt, you should alsoharvest meat.
But there's there's so manyways that you can go about
hunting and so many motivationsyou can have for it.
I don't, I think you know,despite the fact that things are
(51:12):
, I'm finding things quitepositive, and that seems to be a
changing light there.
I think that there is enoughcriticism from the outside in.
I don't think we need to befighting amongst ourselves about
different styles of hunting orwhat's right or wrong or
otherwise.
I think you know, so long aswhat you're doing is ethical and
legal, fill your boots, I don't.
I don't have anything to sayabout anyone else's choices, but
(51:38):
for me the hunt itself isreally important.
So and same with you know, ifyou're spotlighting on private
land because you want to harvestmeat for your freezer, cool,
that's great.
I wouldn't find a sense ofsatisfaction in that because for
me part of it is the patiencethat comes with the stock, with
the whole process of it.
That is something that I careabout and that I want to get out
(51:59):
of it.
But you know, everyone hastheir own motivations and that's
cool.
Like that's actually reallyinteresting.
Dodge Keir (52:06):
Beth, right at the start you said your background
was long range precision riflesort of things.
Yeah, I did that for about.
I'm sorry.
Cass Fleming (52:12):
Yeah, rifle sort of things.
Yeah, I did that for about.
I'm sorry.
Dodge Keir (52:15):
Yeah, no, you go, I'm sorry.
Cass Fleming (52:16):
I was going to say , yeah, I did that for probably
about a year before I decided toget into hunting.
Dodge Keir (52:20):
There's an interesting part of the
community that frowns uponlong-range hunting.
Cass Fleming (52:27):
Yes, yeah.
Dodge Keir (52:28):
And whether you've come across it or not, what are
your thoughts on that and how?
Like you said that you'd behappy to take something up to,
you know 300 metres or so, butyou know guys shooting 700, 800
metres.
And then the general consensusis oh, that's not hunting,
because the animal had no ideayou were there.
And my rebuttal to that, beforeyou get to answer, is the ideal
(52:52):
archery hunt is getting to sub30 without the animal knowing
you're there.
Yes so you know, is it the samebut at a different skill set.
The skill set's in the shooting, less so in the stalking.
Cass Fleming (53:04):
Yeah, I really.
So it still just comes back tome if it's legal and if it's
ethical.
If you're not proficient enoughto take a shot over that
distance, then no, I don't thinkthat's great because it's
fundamentally not ethical.
But if you can do it and ifthat's the way that you enjoy to
shoot, and if you, by stalkingup on an animal, spook it and
(53:27):
then it ends up not being asproficient, then maybe that's
not as good.
I don't think it's inherentlywrong to do long-range hunting.
So long as you know what you doLike, so long as you're good
enough to do it, go for it.
Dodge Keir (53:42):
I think their issue is the word you know, calling
and hunting, as opposed tolong-range shooting at a live
target.
Cass Fleming (53:49):
Yeah, yeah, righto , I don't know, it's not
something.
I guess I've thought about alot.
It's not something I want to doeither.
So you know, I don't haveprobably a strong opinion on it.
But I don't know there's,there's people doing all sorts
of you know weird and wonderfulthings that are not not
(54:12):
representing the huntingindustry.
Well, the hunting community, Idon't think the long-range
hunting is.
Dodge Keir (54:17):
It's one of them.
Cass Fleming (54:18):
I don't think that's one of them.
Dodge Keir (54:20):
On that topic.
There's some comments that cameabout from your article, where
it was on the Landline specificpage, when they shared that they
were going to have it as the TVepisode and you know a lady
commented about why do we needto kill animals in this day and
age, or something was alongthose lines.
And the comments from huntersinverted commas, one
(54:45):
particularly, you know I thinkhis word was eftard, you know
called her whatever and justblasted her for not
understanding what we do and whywe do what we do.
And I commented and just saidlike I think that's a terrible
answer.
Also, hers might be from ourpoint of view, but I think his
(55:10):
answer was worse.
Cass Fleming (55:13):
Oh yep.
Dodge Keir (55:14):
I're navigating negative comments and my comment
back was oh, he said that shewould believe whatever she reads
.
I said okay, well, give hersomething to read yeah give her
some facts and figures yeah youknow it.
That's, that's my way ofdealing with those sorts of
comments.
It's just okay.
I can understand why you mightthink that we waste the meat.
(55:36):
However, x, y, z, here's apicture of my cool room and my
kids enjoying some sausages wemade.
Cass Fleming (55:43):
Yeah, absolutely.
That's the thing, though, like Ithink sometimes people do get
very defensive and the way thatthey respond does more damage
than good, and I feel no need totry and convince anyone of
anything.
Absolutely happy to shareperspectives, and if someone is
curious and willing to consideranother point of view, then
(56:05):
excellent.
Some people aren't, and that'sokay too.
I'd rather spend my energyinteracting with the people that
want to discuss and considerwhat hunting is all about, but,
yeah, I don't think we're goingto, you know, help our cause by
(56:26):
criticising other people orgetting butt hurt because
someone doesn't like what we do.
Dodge Keir (56:31):
I think some of my best conversations over the
years have been with people likethat lady.
I'm not going to say that she'sone of them, but you know, when
you get to really sit down andunderstand why they think what
they think.
Something happened in the pastor something, or it's quite
often a misconception.
Oh, we thought that hunters dothis.
Cass Fleming (56:49):
Yes, absolutely.
Dodge Keir (56:51):
Let's say that some of them might, but that's not
the norm yes, it's not what wetry to achieve and, yeah, you
know, for these reasons so, andI think we need to then be able
to sit there and listen to theirside, though, too, and that
that's what gets forgotten.
Cass Fleming (57:05):
We all want to tell them why we're right, but
let's have a listen to why theythink we're wrong absolutely,
and it's so interesting the moreyou talk to anyone, the more
you say that there's just thisinteresting fact about every
single person on the planet, butalso the reason why they
believe what they believe is acollection of their own
experiences through life.
And when you can have thatconversation about how they
(57:26):
arrived at a particular thought,then there's sometimes an
opportunity to add a differentperspective that they can take
on board.
But without knowing how theygot there, you've got no
potential insights to be able torelate to their experience.
So you know, you're just makingall these assumptions and we
don't like assumptions beingmade about us, so you know let's
(57:50):
not do it to anyone else yeah?
Dodge Keir (57:52):
It goes both ways, I think.
The whole industry.
We're so used to beingvictimised not victimised,
demonised, I suppose and madeout to be the baddies.
A lot of guys go around withtheir hackles up all the time.
Cass Fleming (58:04):
Yeah.
Dodge Keir (58:04):
And it's hard to remove that and yeah.
I think, finding out where thecomment's coming from on the
other side is the key.
Yes, absolutely, and usingtheir own language.
Cass Fleming (58:14):
Yep, yeah for sure .
Dodge Keir (58:17):
Well, thanks for coming on tonight, cass, I
appreciate it.
Cass Fleming (58:20):
Thanks for having me, josh, learning a bit about
you.
Dodge Keir (58:24):
No, thanks for coming, we've spoken a fair bit
in the past, but it's nice tohave these longer chats and see
what you're thinking and what?
You're feeling.
One of my favorite topicshunting, hunting, yeah, likewise
, it takes up about 92% of mybrain capacity how good.
So it's an interesting pastimeand I love meeting new people
and listening about theirexperiences.
So thanks for sharing yours.
I look forward to catching upin the future in the hills
(58:46):
somewhere.
Cass Fleming (58:47):
Yeah, likewise.
Dodge Keir (58:48):
Until next time, we'll talk to you soon.
Cass Fleming (58:50):
See you then.
Bye, until next time.
We'll talk to you soon.
See you then.
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