Ep. 9: A state forest success story with Dave from DTB Adventures

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
On the ninth episode of Acura Hunts.

Speaker 2 (00:08):
Without.
I mean back in Victoria, backin the day, you didn't know how
many hunters were out there in aforest.
You know there could have been15, 20 in a small forest and I
remember there being a fewaccidents back then and I missed
this tiny little branch.
That was about five metres infront of the bow and as I sent
the arrow and I've got it onfilm, you can see it hit the

(00:30):
branch, this tiny little twig,and it sent the arrow two meters
off.

Speaker 1 (00:34):
I want to challenge you to my favorite meal, which
is also neko, which it's youtake the whole neck from just in
front of the shoulders so youcut it straight either with an
axe or with a saw, or just cutthe whole neck off and then cut
it off at the back of the skulland take the whole neck home and
then cut it into like two inchstakes, basically with the bone

(00:54):
in it.
Welcome back, accurate hunts, alife outdoors.
I have have Dave with us fromDTB Adventures.
Hi, mate, welcome, thank you.

Speaker 2 (01:10):
Yes, I'm going.
Okay, Great to be here.

Speaker 1 (01:12):
Great to be here too.
I'm enjoying some littlesilence in here.
We had our baby the other dayand it's a little bit noisy on
the other side of those wallssometimes during the day, so
it's nice to have a bit of peaceand quiet.
Excellent, excellent sometimesduring the day, so it's nice to
have a bit of peace and quiet.
Excellent, excellent.
But everyone's doing well athome and got a little boy, so
another little hunter added tothe family, unfortunately.
If they like it or not, we'llfind so lots, lots of rest at

(01:35):
the moment.
Yeah, lots of rest.
Um, I call it work, but that'smy rest getting out of the house
and going and doing somethingelse.
But uh, had a week off andspent some time at home.
And just a little tip forhunters too don't do what I did
and get cold in winter, becausenow I have a rut baby, which,
although I love having babiesand it's beautiful and they're

(01:57):
great I'm missing this rutbecause I am at home helping out
as you do as a parent, and you,dave, are about to go on an
adventure yes, yes, and unlikeyou, I actually don't have kids,
which means I'm going to becarrying out my meat by myself
for the next 30, 40 years,without help yeah, opening gates

(02:17):
too and all sorts of.

Speaker 2 (02:18):
There's lots of benefits to having children yeah
, but yeah, a couple adventurescoming up which are leading into
the rut, so pretty excitedabout that.

Speaker 1 (02:28):
We'll rip into what's coming up, but I wanted to ask
you I don't think you've beenhunting that long.
Is that right?
Am I right in saying that?

Speaker 2 (02:37):
When I say long.

Speaker 1 (02:38):
I mean give us a timeframe.

Speaker 2 (02:39):
Yeah, look in this current reiteration, probably
four years, right.
So just after COVID I got backinto it.
But I grew up hunting back inthe 90s, in my early 20s, and
then all through my childhoodwith dad rabbits, foxes, things
like that.
So hunting's always been on andoff.
But I ended up moving to LordHowe Island for a few years and

(03:06):
let the license expire and itwasn't until I got back to
Sydney that COVID hit, hadnothing to do.
So I sort of got my licenseagain, got the guns transferred
back from dad's name back intomine and, yeah, got stuck
straight back into it.

Speaker 1 (03:21):
Would.
Would you say that that growingup period was a time of
shooting more so than huntingrabbits and things like that?

Speaker 2 (03:30):
look, probably, yeah, we, a lot of our family had
dairy farms so you know a lot ofit was just walking the open
paddocks, you know rabbitshooting and all that.
We just do a lot of trappingback then as well.
So I mean, there was, you know,there was a very strong
connection with with nature andtracking and things like that.
But yeah, there wasn't so muchthe detailed hunting that you

(03:54):
know most of us are doing now,was there money in the trapping?

Speaker 1 (03:56):
were you guys doing it for skins or meat?

Speaker 2 (03:59):
No, just just for fun and for meat for ourselves.
So dad had always grown updoing it with his father, so it
was kind of a bit of a familytradition that was we.
Just we kept it going until thedairy farms got sold and of
course then we sort of movedinto, tried to move into Samba
hunting.
But in the nineties you onlyhad one book as a resource and

(04:21):
ex-army surplus clothing, so weweren't that successful.
We got honked a couple of timesbut that was it.
We were fly fishermen, so itwas only sort of a passing hobby
back then.
What was the?

Speaker 1 (04:31):
one book of reference .

Speaker 2 (04:33):
Walking the Mud?
Ken Pearce, I believe it is,but back then that was so hard
to get that one of us had a copy, and so we'd each keep it for
two months and then we'd pass itfrom one person to the next to
then read it.
So it was.
It was a pretty beaten up copy,but yeah, that's all we had.

Speaker 1 (04:50):
There was nothing else that we could find it's
interesting time pre-facebook,pre-google, pre-phones and yeah,
I don't want to say better, butI kind of feel it it might have
been in a lot of ways, but thenalso restrictive in you just
said then access to information.

Speaker 2 (05:08):
Yeah, I mean everything was so analogue, like
you'd actually sit there withyour paper map.
So I used to get a paper mapand get the contour lines and
cut little sections of wood on ascroll saw and then make a 3D
model of the mountain range andthen fill it in with putty.
And then when I'd go to thespot, like I mean, if ends of

(05:30):
maps you just throw pins on butback then it was actually a, it
was a 3d map that I had in myroom that I'd physically stick
pins in this 3d map when I'dfind wallows, or so yeah, very,
very different.

Speaker 1 (05:41):
That's an incredible difference to what most people
are running a little gps anddropping pins and here you are
in your bedroom.

Speaker 2 (05:48):
Yeah, well, that's getting back into hunting now,
like I just I couldn't believethe change.
Like I mean the, thenavigational systems, you know,
venza mapping and all that whichwas, you know, basically a free
service.
Um, and even the way the dpirun it up here in new south
wales, like it just made thingsso much more convenient.
But the animals hadn't changedthat was still, that always been

(06:12):
so what's your experience beingwith the r license itself?

Speaker 1 (06:16):
and like, I don't mean the hunting part, but I
mean r license booking systems,um, forest access, interaction
with you know dpi and forestrywhile you've?

Speaker 2 (06:29):
been.
Yeah, um, look, I'll be honest,I'm probably gonna get
crucified for this, but I loveit.
I think it's a great system.
Um, I mean, I got mine duringcovid.
I got the gun license and the rlicense, did all that, did the
course online, got my R licence,booked my forest as soon as
COVID finished, sort of had aforest, went out there.

(06:51):
When I've had to contact theDPI, they've been great.
So I think it's a great systemand I think it's a really fair
system as well.
So it gives everyone theopportunity to get out there.
They're in a forest.
There could have been 15, 20 ina small forest and I remember
there being a few accidents backthen, but at least now there's

(07:15):
one forest I've got coming upsoon and there's only two of us
allowed in it, so it's like well, I'd say that because now
everyone knows which one it is.
Well, look, it's a ballot systemanyway.
So you know, I was lucky enoughto get a ballot draw for this
one.
Maragal, maragal.

Speaker 1 (07:28):
South.
Yeah, I can't remember where mydates were, but I do Seymour's
section and I did not even askthe wife.
I just politely declined andsent a hard email saying I'm
sorry I can't make it, whichhurt because I know what that
means.
To draw that, but it wasn'tworth asking the question this
close to having a baby.

Speaker 2 (07:50):
I think that's a pretty strong cosmic credit.
You burnt yourself there.
I hope so.

Speaker 1 (07:56):
I talk about.
I mean, like you said, youdon't have kids, but I talk
about booking four or five tripswith the wife, knowing that I
really only want to go on two ofthem.
So, like I'll say, I'll give upthat one and I'll give up that
one knowing that they didn'tactually exist.
They were just they always exist, but they're not always really

(08:18):
important ones.
You talk about everyone havinga chance and using the ballot
system.
You think that's, we said, fair, so I'm going to assume your
answer.
But you think that's a reallyfair way to ballot up the I
don't want to say peak forests,but the ones that are overly
productive, and I'll give you asecond question to follow up.

(08:39):
Do you think it could beapplied, or should be applied,
to more forests?

Speaker 2 (08:47):
I don't know the answer to that one.
I mean with this particularforest, marigold South, like
it's extremely popular and thereseems to be a lot of deer in
there.
So I mean recently, what was itin America?
They've just cancelled theauction system for one of their
forests.
Which state was it?

(09:08):
I only read it just todayThey've gone from an auction
system now to a ballot system,because what they're saying is
you now have a one in 1.5million chance of drawing it,
whereas the tags for these Ithink it was one of the Rams or
something drawing it, whereasthe tags for these, I think it
was one of the rams or somethingwe're going for.
Like you know, half a milliondollars for an auction tag which

(09:30):
puts it out of you know therealm of almost everyone.
So I mean with the maragallsouth, you just you put your
number in, you see what happens.
And it's only the second yearthat I've put in for it and.
I managed to draw this year, soit's just pure chance.
But I think for those, for us,it's pretty fair.

Speaker 1 (09:51):
With the American tag ballot ticket style system and
the upper end of those auctions.
I've been to one of thoseauctions and it becomes a bit of
a pissing contest between therich boys in the room and it's I
don't want to say a slam dunk,but I don't know of anyone

(10:11):
that's bought an expensive tagand not shot an animal because
you kind of assume you're goingto after spending half a million
or a million dollars.
But the plus side is those boyshave the money and that money
goes back to conservation,whereas in a ballot system.
That's true we're just enteringour number from our license.
That costs 325 for five years.
But how much of that money isgoing back into?

(10:34):
And so it's a tricky one.
Africa comes up a bit in thisas well, when, like, a rhino
will be auctioned off for$500,000 and then people
complain but that $500,000,$400,000 of it goes to saving
the other 1,000 rhinos in thatarea.
So there's pros and cons to thebig money side of it.

Speaker 2 (10:58):
I guess I mean Australia's in such a unique
position because you know allthe animals we hunt.
They're actually introduced,you know they're not native,
they're not, you know, as such aresource that needs to be so
protected so fiercely.
So you know well, okay, miraglsouth only has two people

(11:21):
allowed in it for four days at atime, for however long the
period is.
But book yourself any otherforest, I mean, they've all got
deer, they've all got animals.
Just look at another one and gofor a walk, like you'll have,
you know, as big a chance, asmuch of a chance of success,
which I think is that's what'sgreat about.
You know, especially in newsouth wales, the hunting here

(11:42):
have you spent much time lookingat the harvest returns?

Speaker 1 (11:46):
Is that something you used?

Speaker 2 (11:48):
Yeah, when I started, I was obsessing over them to
the point where I actually hadspreadsheets set up.

Speaker 1 (11:58):
I'm not a state forest hunter.
I'll tell you my first return Idid.
I think the people in theoffice would have been man.
This guy is a serious hunterbecause what I put down was not
a harvest return.
I put down a what I saw return.
I just like, yep, saw that, sawthat, saw that, saw that and I
thought I killed everything.
Which I think is the way it usedto be up until recently and it

(12:27):
used to be species specific, butthen they just changed it now
to deer.
Well, actually I'm not sureabout the harvest return part,
but what they publish is deerwas shot in nundle.
It doesn't say how many over amonthly period, it just says
deer was shot.
And I think they had to removethe species thing and for a
mixture of reasons.

Speaker 2 (12:42):
But some people were saying they saw hog deer in
nundle or you know they, theysaw yeah, chittle in oberon or
just a mixture ofmisidentification and maybe
messing around with the system,but then they removed the
species from it and now it'sjust a little bit generic, but
and I think, to be honest, Ikind of like the fact that the

(13:03):
harvest returns only have thatthere's deer there, because you
know, if you're a deer hunter,you know you know there's been
deer that's shot there.
But as to what it is, that'spart of the fun, that's the
challenge, yeah, actually goingout there and exploring and
discovering it for yourself,rather than just getting it all
handed to you and okay, well,you know there's that species of

(13:23):
deer and it sits there and I'llgo there at this time and you
know I've got a good chance ofgetting it.
Um, I mean one of the forests Iwas looking at last year.
I spent 10 months walkingaround it and I physically
didn't see a deer until the lastday of the hunt after 10 months
.

Speaker 1 (13:41):
So I had them on cameras.

Speaker 2 (13:42):
But you know, it's interesting, it's that.
I don't know, I still likegoing out and doing all that
work and finding it with just alittle bit of information to
give you hope, Right?

Speaker 1 (13:57):
So yeah, I think the.

Speaker 2 (13:58):
Harvester returns are good.

Speaker 1 (13:59):
Yeah, so we're using your Harvest returns.
What about?
And you're saying you're usingtopographical maps?
What's your mapping system?
Are you running handheld GPS oryou run your phone?

Speaker 2 (14:13):
So I just run Avenza through my phone, but with a
subscription.
But I also use Google Earthextensively before I go.
So I'll do all my e-wreckingfor lack of a better word on
Google Earth and then map outall my hardwoods, my clearings,

(14:34):
my likely feed galleys, you know, possible areas of transit.
All of that using the littleshaded box that you can create
on Google Earth and thentransferring that file to Avenza
and it downloads everythingthat you've done on Google Earth
onto Avenza.
Then when you're out there youcan look.
Avenza only gives you that.

(14:55):
It doesn't give you a detailedphoto map.
It only gives you that.
Let's see, I'm 15 metres fromthat clearing.
I'm coming to the pines now,but I know it's just over there,
so you can sort of adjustmethods.
Yeah, um, but I find I don'tthink vans is not that expensive

(15:16):
.
I mean, I've got 30 or 40different maps on it at the
moment.

Speaker 1 (15:22):
Um, and they've been pretty well used.

Speaker 2 (15:25):
Yeah, yeah, they're getting pretty, pretty worn,
pretty dog-eared.
But, um, what was I saying?
Um, yeah, with the avenger youcan only have, I think, two maps
with the unpaid version, so thesubscription definitely helps
you if you're bouncing around alot of different forests.

(15:46):
When I had the unpaid version,I actually lost all my pins a
number of times because I had todelete a map to then put on a
new map and I was like, oh,that's nine months worth of work
gone.

Speaker 1 (15:57):
Like, okay, back it up and how much did you say it
was for monthly?

Speaker 2 (16:03):
I think it's oh I, I think it's annual, I can't
remember off the top of my head.
It wasn't excessive, it wasdefinitely well worth it.
I mean especially for peoplejust running a Venza, which I've
found is fine.
I haven't needed anything elseso far.

Speaker 1 (16:19):
You're right, and I've seen a few people hey, I
went to a state forest, didn'tsee any deer.
Can someone recommend anotherone to go to?
Like, do you think that thestate forest situation and that
being your reason to hunt, somepeople are quick to lose

(16:39):
interest because it was so easyto get into it.
Then they're like, oh, this isnot so interesting, I didn't
shoot anything.
Then they sort of either dropout of the sport or move on to
another forest and don't give itthat time, you said.
Then you did nine months ornine trips and the sore one at
the end.

Speaker 2 (16:56):
Yeah, I actually wonder if a lot of people go
into hunting with the wrongmindset.
You know, of course you want toshoot an animal.
Know, of course you want toshoot an animal, of course you
want to, you want to take ananimal home and you know, if you
want to take something homewith antlers, even better.
But if you go out there justwith the mindset of just

(17:17):
exploring, I mean that's I meanI'd always done that as a kid
out in the forest just wanderedaround for hours just exploring,
and you know, you never knowwhat you're going to find out
there.
So I mean I'd always done thatas a kid out in the forest, just
wandered around for hours justexploring, and you never know
what you're going to find outthere.
So it could be you know nativemice, or you know bellbird nests
, or just you know there's somuch out there to find and I
think when I go out to a forestit's always just to see what's

(17:41):
around and what I'm going tofind, and then if an animal or
an opportunity presents itself,then more's the better.
I think that way you're neveractually disappointed with the
trip, even if you come back withnothing, like I mean.
I keep orchids and stuff likethat, so I'm quite into my
native orchids.
So you know, I can be walkingaround in the rain for three

(18:02):
days without an animal, butyou'll come across a native
orchid and you'll go.
Well, trip's done.
Awesome, I'm happy, like youknow, that'll do it.

Speaker 1 (18:10):
Yeah, I saw a meme the other day.
That was someone had sent theirmate more sunset photos and
he's like oh so, no deer, thistrip.
Yeah, and I saw you put a reelup the other day and I can't
remember where you were, what,which one it was, but you had
orchid like.
Part of the video was flowers,little purple flowers, and one
thing.
The first thing that crossed mymind was I mustn't have seen

(18:32):
anything.
It was when you were chasingsambra, I think.

Speaker 2 (18:34):
Um oh, down in victoria.
Yeah, the the.
I'm gonna geek out here theveined hooded orchid um which is
a native orchid of victoria,which I didn't know either.
I sort of found this flower andphotographed it and researched
it and I'm like, oh, wow, it'sactually a pretty cool little
orchid.

Speaker 1 (18:54):
I'm going to go off topic here.
We are an outdoors podcast, soflowers, you know, fall into it.
Do you have the plantidentification app?
No, I don't.
I've tried a couple of those andthey've never quite worked um
I've got a fencing customer whohas the paid version and I'm
assuming it's similar to avenza.
You get the free one.
It's a bit yeah and yeah.

(19:15):
And his is to the point whereit says you need to add x to
that plant and this is what theplant is, or that plant needs
this and this is what it is like.
It's a proper one anyway.
Um, what happened?
So he'd done that the daybefore because we'd asked him a
question about a plant.
I was just making conversationand he comes out the next day

(19:36):
wearing daffodil day socks and Isaid can I use that app and see
if it works on your sock?
And it worked out that it was adaffodil, but it said it needed
water because it was just apicture of a daffodil on his
sock.
But uh, you need.

Speaker 2 (19:53):
You need that while you're out and about yeah, I've
tried a couple of them, but Ithink it was an american based
app and I think it it.
I was looking at a gum tree andit told me it was an oak tree
or something.
I was like, oh, I don't thinkthis one's the best app.

Speaker 1 (20:08):
It'd be nice to have that for deer sign or deer
species and just from a teachingeducation point of view.
I mean it's a bit trickybecause you've got to be up
close to do it.
But I saw the other day andlike not coming from a judgment
point if this person's listeningthey shot a deer and posted it
in a group that I'm in and itwent on for a couple of days and

(20:30):
then he reposted it a few dayslater and said my mate told me,
this is a red.
I thought it was a fallow andhe shot a red hind and he just
thought it was a fallow becausehe didn't know the difference.
But if you had an app where hecould take a photo and it would
identify it for him that worriesme a little bit, with people
not super being aware of species.

(20:50):
But again, it's just a newlearning situation.

Speaker 2 (20:55):
And I think I mean is that the same you know?
You only know when you know.
I mean the amount of times I'vebeen caught out with different
things at the very start.
I mean the scat identification,I think is one of the big
things.

Speaker 1 (21:09):
I mean, I've been Look at a lot of goat scat and
it kind of looks like deer scat,if you look hard enough.

Speaker 2 (21:13):
Yeah, and like I've been lucky that I got brought up
sort of chasing after kangaroosand wallabies and all that, so
you already had an idea of.
But when you're first starting,I think especially after covid,
like a lot of people got intohunting meat eater was that huge
thing on netflix.
It just took off and that's whatspurred me to get back into
watching the media stuff.
But you know, people havewatched that that maybe don't

(21:36):
have an outdoors background, sothey got their license and they
got their guns and all that andthey're going out there, but
they're they're learning craftas well as learning hunting, so
they're they're starting offfrom scratch.
And oh no, I feel for the guysthat are asking on the internet
a lot about the scat, andespecially the guys that get
shot down, it's like well, mate,everyone's got to start from

(21:58):
somewhere.
So it's.
You know, you need to be, youknow a, you know, a little bit
more helpful, a little bit moreunderstanding.
And just because we've beendoing it for 20, 30, 40 years,
you know this person's only beendoing it for a few months.

Speaker 1 (22:19):
But I still have questions about situations and
sign and things and I'm stilllearning.
Every time I take someone out,you know they ask a question,
I'm like I don't actually knowthe answer to that, but I'll.
Someone out.
You know they ask a question.
I'm like I don't actually knowthe answer to that, but I'll
find out, yeah, and then youknow add something to my
playbook as well.
I think the being shot down onFacebook it's an unfortunate
part of that beast and what itis, and I think it's tricky.

(22:40):
But there nearly needs to be asafe space for those questions
and I'm not sure if you're partof a club or not, but I feel
that is in hunting clubs.
I feel that because it's asmaller community could be 50
members, 200 members it's a safeenough space that you could ask
hey, is this actually deer pooor am I looking at a wombat cube

(23:00):
?
Yeah, and not be shot down butbe constructive.
So I feel that I think thosepeople getting shot down are
just asking in the wrong placeand maybe should reach out to a
smaller community more so thanhunting australia facebook page
or yeah, absolutely yeah, Ithink.

Speaker 2 (23:15):
Look, mentoring is, I think, a very, very important
thing, I mean in hunting and Ithink, like my partner and me
are also climbers and you knowthe way we got taught climbing
back in the day was we hadmentors.
You know that the climbingcommunity now doesn't have as
strong a mentors because of thegym climbing culture.

(23:36):
So all the new climbers don'thave that experience and they're
getting shot down for thesimilar reason that the hunters
are, because you know they don'thave that safe space to sort of
turn to, to ask you know sillyquestions, so you you had your
parents and was it uncles or sogrowing up as your mentors um
hunting it was.
It was, yeah, my father, not somuch my uncles, more just my

(24:01):
father.

Speaker 1 (24:02):
So in the outdoor.

Speaker 2 (24:04):
He was a big outdoorsman, a big, a big uh
bushman it's funny that youbrought up the mentoring thing.

Speaker 1 (24:09):
It's just been in the last week or so, but so I
didn't have any one, uh,self-taught.
I had a guy who got me intoshooting, I would say, but I
took him deer hunting and he hadno idea, like he's just a
shooter, farm shooter, sofirearms was fine.
But the our local hunting clubis doing a mentor, sort of a

(24:30):
beginner and mentor pairedprogram where they pair you up
with someone for a few monthsand it's I want to um alex
sering, wild food meister.
I know he's at home with hisclicker this is about the fifth
episode I've mentioned him in arow and he's home keeping tabs
on that.
But he's sort of created thisprogram and it's a funny one

(24:51):
because now it's just for meit's become a challenge between
the mentors to see who can, notso much about the student, it's
about how much we can mentoreach other Not mentor, but how
much we can do.
But I feel that it's aninteresting way forward and I
I'm a firm believer in education, in the hunting stuff, I think

(25:13):
teaching other people, and Ithink people get scared about
giving away spots when you'rementoring, but it doesn't have
to be that you could.
You could take someone to anystate forest and and teach them
sign it doesn't have to be your,your spots in your forest, and
I think that really needs tohappen a little bit more, and I

(25:33):
don't know how that happens yeah, I've had a couple of people
approach me and they're going ohcan you, can you take me out at
some point?

Speaker 2 (25:40):
and I'm like well, how about we pick a forest that
neither of us have gone to andwe'll start from scratch,
because then I'm seeing theforest for the first time,
you're seeing the forest thatwe're discovering what it is,
and you know, I think that's agood way if people are afraid to
give away their spots.
I mean, there's that manyforests to choose from.
Choose one that neither of youhave ever been to.

(26:03):
And you know, start it.
Start it from the absolute.

Speaker 1 (26:06):
You know, first step do you think that the forests
closer to sydney are thetraditional ones that get
smashed?
I hear that a lot, you know.
Just just over the bluemountains and then that whole
ring three hours around sydneyis you know really heavily hit.
Have you found that?

Speaker 2 (26:24):
depends what you mean by heavily hit, I mean foot
traffic.

Speaker 1 (26:28):
Oh, I wouldn't say success as far as shooting, but
foot traffic foot traffic.

Speaker 2 (26:32):
Yes, and I think you know you look at you look at the
booking system and it's fridayto sunday.
I just looked out on everythingthat's within three hours of
Sydney and then you got, youknow, the middle of the week.
They do get hammered during theweek, sorry, during the weekend

(26:53):
.
That's not to say that there'snot still heaps of game there.
I mean, yeah, there's.
Like I said before, there'sdeer in every.
I don't think I've been to aforest that I haven't found deer
in yet.
It just depends on how mucheffort you want to put into and
how much time you want to putinto finding them, do you think?

Speaker 1 (27:11):
the numbers of hunters.
I'm using Australia as anexample.
They say that 90% of thecommunity live within two hours
of the beach, right, so there'sthis whole section in the middle
that doesn't really get touched.
And do you think that forestsare a bit like that, that
although they're getting a lotof traffic, 90% of the people

(27:33):
that are going there aren'tgoing further in to areas that
are a little more productive?

Speaker 2 (27:36):
Oh, 100%, yeah, absolutely.
I mean.
I've even seen a few of thelocal, closer ones where you
know you'll just have peoplejust driving around in their
four-wheel drives on the trackson the outskirts just all
weekend just driving around, andI've had it where I've been
sitting only 200 metres in fromthe track and just listening to

(27:58):
four-wheel drives going up anddown and up and down.

Speaker 1 (28:01):
And.

Speaker 2 (28:02):
I think 10 minutes after the last full drive, went
past one of the biggest pigs Iever shot, just came trotting
out 35 meters in front of me andjust dropped him and I was like
it's only, it's not even that'sthe center of the forest,
that's the untouched, it's justit's the one that's just off you

(28:23):
.
You know, the easy path tendsto be, so you don't have to go
far.
I mean, I like to do the tripswhere you hike, you know, for
miles, backpacking, spendovernight, you know, park a car
Only because I have a Foresterand I literally can't get any
further in.
You know, a Forester will takeyou, so I have to walk, but I

(28:44):
find there's the game is it'snot that far away from the
popular areas, right, um, butyeah, they're definitely that
this, the center of the forest,tend to be better, I find and
there's the hot tip from dave goto the center geographical I.

Speaker 1 (29:03):
I use an example uh, when I'm teaching about a zone
of influence on an animal and Iwould say that your pet dog, pet
cat has zero zone of influence,meaning you're right up on them
, touching them and they don'tcare.
And then a deer, I would say ona private property, with low
impact, low pressure, would havea zone of impact of 100 meters,

(29:26):
meaning that you could get to100 meters before it starts to
really get alert.
I'm just using that as a roundfigure, but my limited
experience with state foresthunting, and just from talking
to hundreds of people that havebeen to state forest, is that
the zone of impact of an animalin a state forest is much wider,

(29:46):
so they're a little bit morealert for a larger radius around
them.
Have you found that in yourexperience?

Speaker 2 (29:54):
Yeah, absolutely.
I mean I think state foresthunting definitely like hones
your skills a lot more thanperhaps what private land
hunting does, only because theanimals are hyper aware.
I mean you know you watchfellow in a state forest and
they just never their headsnever stop moving.
You know their ears are justgoing the whole time because

(30:18):
they're just aware of every tinylittle movement of sound.
But most of the deer that Ishoot are between 35 and 80
yards, so I don't tend to takeany shots further than that.
And most of them are around sortof 40.
But I'm a big sit and wait sortof guy, so I like to sit there

(30:43):
and just get in there hoursbefore, settle in, get
everything nice and quiet, makesure the wind's right and just
then let nature do its thingaround me I got two sit and wait
questions for you.

Speaker 1 (30:56):
You probably you haven't listened to the last
episode I released, but wetalked about um.
Well, you may have, I don'tthink you have keep me busy.
But uh, I did a sit and commit.
I called it Up at Nundle andit's my really only reference to
State Forest Hunting, becauseit's the only time I've put
actual effort into hunting mineand I was successful.
So you can go and listen to theprevious episode.
I'm not going to brag on aboutit, but oh man, I was so bored I

(31:21):
was drawing things on theground.
I had no reception so that waskilling me.
I was drawing things on theground, I was organising photos
on my phone.
I was playing with antscrawling on my legs.
I had sorry, it's not the onlytime I've done it.
I did it when I was hunting hogdeer down on Snake Island with
a friend of mine, yannick.
We actually made a chessboardon the ground and we carved

(31:43):
pieces, we whittled pieces outof sticks and we made a chess
board and we played chess whilewe were passing time.
What are you doing mentally tosit in one spot?
Other than taking pictures oforchids.

Speaker 2 (31:58):
Yeah, taking pictures of orchids making chess boards,
organizing photos, playingCandy Crush, like all those sort
of things, um, I mean, becauseI take the, the cameras away
with me too, like I spend a lotof the time, you know, taking
photos and capturing video whileI'm sitting there.
So you know I'm always watchingfor any birds or insects or you

(32:23):
know anything that sort of popsup to keep you sort of amused.
But yeah, look, I've got toadmit it does come a lot easier
with age.
I mean, I'm getting a bit oldernow, so the sitting in patience
I'm finding a bit easier.
Four years ago, though, I was,you know, one of those guys you

(32:44):
park the car, you walk for 16hours, you don't stop, you get
back to camp, you sleep, you getup again and then you walk for
16 hours, cover as much forestas possible, which I found
moderately successful.
But then, of course, as you gotto know that forest because
you've travelled so much, thenyou didn't have to move as much

(33:07):
you started learning.
Okay, that's the moreproductive spot, that's where
I've seen more signs, so thenyou can start.

Speaker 1 (33:22):
What are you looking for, like what would indicate to
you a spot to do a sit and waitum?

Speaker 2 (33:32):
definitely feed like the, the browse.
You know the, the amount ofvaried herbage and that that you
find within the areas I find um.
Can you just clarify whatbrowse is?
Browse is the stuff that thedeer eat on the way through,
isn't it?

Speaker 1 (33:48):
But not grass.
Not grass, so varied stuff Likea woody shrub or something.
It's usually at mouth height,less than bending over height.

Speaker 2 (34:01):
Yeah, which is interesting because it's often
hard to distinguish.
Well, for me it's anyway whatis deer and what is kangaroo.
So you'll find a plant andyou're like, oh, the deer have
been smashing this, but it couldalso have been a kangaroo
that's been nibbling away on it.
So I think that's whereAmerican hunters have it a lot
easier than we do, because youknow it's like well, yeah, they

(34:24):
kangaroos eat everything thatthe deer do.
Right, like it's.
It's not that easy, um but alsojust time.
Yeah, feed, fresh sign, freshtracks.
You know, especially, I loveyou know, especially if it's
rained overnight and you cancover a bit of distance.
You know that obviously wherethere overnight and you can
cover a bit of distance.
You know that obviously wherethere's deer been traveling that

(34:45):
night because they're freshprints.
Um, I mean one of the forests.
I've spent about three yearswalking through it, um, and it's
a pretty popular forest.
You know.
There's nothing secret orspecial about it, but the amount
of time that I've spent movingthrough it, you know.
You just pick up little bits ofinformation here and there and

(35:06):
that allows you to build abigger picture.
And you know, once you get allyour pins on a benzy, you start
seeing well, okay, this is wherea lot of the rubs are, this is
where the thrashes are, this ismore where there's a lot more
footprints.
There seems to be a lot morebedding areas here.
So you start to build a betterpicture of the forest, which
then means you can okay, well, Idon't have to worry about that

(35:27):
section over there, because I'venever seen a print, I've never
seen a rub, never seen scat.
So you know, whatever reason ifyou, even if you can't figure
out what reason it is.
There's obviously at this timeof year there's no deer there,
so put that one aside till later.

Speaker 1 (35:43):
Something important you just said then was at this
time of year yes it's veryspecific to at that time of year
it may also be all time of yearthere's nothing.
Frequently, living in that area, although they may traverse
through, I've had differentproperties where there's nothing
there for six months and theneverything's there for two

(36:03):
months and then nothing againjust depending on on on feed or
where the females are.
I'm specifically talking fallowand private farms.
But if you hold the farm, thatholds I can't remember if I've
spoken about this on the podcast, so boring for those who've
listened, if I have but yourfarm might hold the does all

(36:24):
year round, which means thebucks come in, do their thing
and leave, and then the femalesstay there and they fawn out
there and then they live there.
That's great, depending on whatyou want to do with the
property.
Or your property might be theone next door that holds the
bucks, or the system and thevalley next door that holds the
bucks all year round whenthey're bachelor herding.
But come the rut, yourproperty's empty.

(36:44):
They all rack off and they'renot in that valley and this
applies to State Forest too.
They're not in that valley,they're one or two over in the
next one where the girls were.
Or you also might have onethat's big enough that holds
everything all year round.

Speaker 2 (37:03):
So it's interesting to say at a specific time of
year.
Yeah, well, it's funny you weresaying that about a fellow,
because I was chasing red lastyear and for 10 months had red
on camera.
You know we had them in velvet.
You know we had them.
You know they were all thereand it was great.
The rut know exactly wherethey're going to be.
You know we've got this nailed.
Turn up there was nothing,they'd all just left and we're

(37:24):
like, okay, what do we do now?
Like we didn't expect that theyobviously use this area, just
was somewhere else for the rut.
I found one, luckily on thelast day of the hunt, but that
was seven days of absolutelynothing when you said one, then

(37:45):
did you put your finger up andpoint at something, or you just?
yeah, that was.
That's him there.

Speaker 1 (37:50):
That's my the red deer from last year just a small
spiker, obviously, for thosethat are listening.
What we're looking at there isone, two, three, four, five, six
.
Is it six by five, or am Imissing a six?

Speaker 2 (38:00):
five nox5, no 6x5, there's a tiny little nub that I
kind of I want to count, but Iknow I'm not allowed to it
depends on what rule you go by.

Speaker 1 (38:10):
The general rule I use it's got to be taller than
it is wide from valley to valleyyeah, okay, some guys use, oh,
if you can hang a ring off it.
But you can do that from.
If you hold it up at a certainangle, you can hang a ring off
it.

Speaker 2 (38:22):
Yeah, that's 6 by 5.
Yeah right.

Speaker 1 (38:26):
It's a nub, it's a nodule?

Speaker 2 (38:27):
No, that's a cracker.

Speaker 1 (38:29):
I want to.
Is that last year, 23?
It was your best rut.

Speaker 2 (38:33):
Yeah, that was the 23 .

Speaker 1 (38:35):
That was the first red rut so that was the first
time it actually focused on reddeer, and am I correct in saying
you also went?
Out with a bow after that andtook something as well.

Speaker 2 (38:47):
Uh, yeah, last year yeah, follow that up with um.
Out for the fallow rut afterthe red for I think six days, um
, so that was the first time I'dbeen bow hunting.
So I bought a bow I, I think,in December, and spent from
December to April justpractising, joined a local
archery club here in Sydney andjust spent four months just

(39:11):
practise, practise, practise,trying to get it right Because I
think it's.
I mean archery is, I knowyou've had experience recently
up with Nick and your wife andall that, and it's a totally
different beast.
Like you just can't.
There's no room for error, likeit's tough.

Speaker 1 (39:30):
Do you think it's helped you get to that average
of shot at the 40 or 50-yardmark?
Like, do you think it's helpedin your rifle hunting your
ability to get closer?

Speaker 2 (39:42):
No.
So I think the rifle huntinghas actually helped the archery.
Um, I mean, I always I likegetting close to the animals.
I don't I don't like takinglong shots.
Um, that's just the style thatI like.
I like getting in close orhaving them coming close to me,
like it's.
It just feels much morepersonal.
So I'd had the experience ofgetting in very close to animals

(40:06):
and so when I went to archery,it was a very natural sort of
progression.
It was like, well, you, you'renot great, but you're okay at
this, so you've already got aleg up there.
Now you just have to learn howto send that flimsy little thing
straight slinging sticks, wecall it yeah, which is hard, um,

(40:30):
but, yeah, managed.
Had a bit of disappointment inthe first couple of days um,
tell us about it.
Oh, it was I think it was daythree and set up in this great
spot that I knew there was a ruband there was a scrape and I
knew that all the bucks in thearea come through this area at

(40:52):
some point.
So I set up really nicely andthen, sure enough, this nice
little spiky thing came in, satbroadside at 30 yards and I'm
like all all right, drew backand it was looking good and I
missed this tiny little branch.
That was about five meters infront of the bow and as I sent

(41:12):
the arrow and I've got it onfilm, you can see it hit the
branch, this tiny little twig,and it sent the arrow two meters
off like, and the animal didn'tknow what had happened.
I didn't know what had happened, but the second arrow knocked
and then I was just so freakedout by what happened the first
one that I just rushed the shotand ended up putting a bad shot

(41:33):
on the animal.
Um, it got away.
I spoke to a few people andthey said it wasn't a lethal
shot.
It shot really high.
I think it missed the spine andwent right up high.
Um, it ran off and I neverfound it.
The blood trail stopped.
There was no more blood, so I'mhoping it was okay, but, um,
yeah, that was the first shotthat I'd had on an animal with a

(41:55):
bow, so it wasn't the greatestway to start and do you remember
the feeling, not the secondshot, because that's different.

Speaker 1 (42:06):
Do you remember the feelings of the first shot like
do you, are you someone thatwould take in those moments?
It's like what was my heartdoing at that time, or are you
just focused on the animal?

Speaker 2 (42:15):
um, I, I, I was no, the heart was going.
Yeah, that was definitely.
I mean the excitement leadingup seeing this animal coming in
and knowing that I'd have achance, like can we call it buck
?
fever.
Oh, absolutely, yeah, let'scall it spiky fever.
It was a little, not quite abig buck, but um, oh, absolutely

(42:36):
, it was buck fever, you know,and because it was the first
shot with the boat, which Ithink a lot of hunters have with
their first animals, like itdoesn't matter how many animals
you shot with the rifle whenyou're, when you're using a new
method, you know it'snerve-wracking.
So, yeah, I mean, I would liketo say without the twig it would
have been a perfect shot, butwho knows?

Speaker 1 (42:59):
maybe the buck, the buck fever stopped you seeing
that twig, and maybe it'sdefinitely something you'll do
now is clear your shooting pathlook, quite possibly, and the
two hours that I spent clearingthe shooting path before I sat
down like obviously wasn't clearenough you're gonna do some
more tree removal skills.

Speaker 2 (43:19):
Yeah absolutely.

Speaker 1 (43:21):
So, you're sitting on the same spot.
Did you stay there?

Speaker 2 (43:24):
No, so I ended up moving around.
The weather turned quite nasty.
It was that period last yearwhere those really strong winds
came through during the rut itwas, yeah, all the good spots
that I had marked out.
They were howling with wind.
You know 30, 40k an hour windsthrough the valleys.

(43:45):
So it made it really difficultand I'd almost given up and I
just gave one more gully.
So I'll just go for a littlewalk, and you know how it is.
You walk and you're croaking inthe distance, you, you're like
there's something out there.
I was like, all right, I'll gofor a walk up.
Went for a walk up and a littlespiky and a doe came charging

(44:10):
past me and I'm like I don'tthink spikies croak like that,
do they?
I mean this thing was tiny andI'm like I don't know, maybe it
is.
And then mean this thing wastiny and I'm like I don't, don't
know, maybe it is.
And then they took off and then, fair enough, this croaking
kept happening and gave a rattleand came straight up to I think
it was about 11 yards and thengot a shot.

(44:35):
Was an okay shot, but, um, yeah, it took off, couldn't find it,
searched for three hours,couldn't find it, gave up, went
back to camp.
Was anyone who's yeah, anyonewho's lost an animal knows?
It's just you feel sick.
You know it's gut-wrenching, oh, and like you know the feeling

(44:57):
that the animal was still outthere and injured, like it's.
You know they say hunters don'tcare, but I mean any hunter
that's been through it like,yeah, they, they care about the
welfare of the animals.
Um, so I sat in a chair for twohours and just couldn't let it
go.
I went no, I'm getting back up,I'm starting at the other end
of the forest and I'm just goingto start from the other end and

(45:17):
just make my way whole throughuntil I find it.
Park the car, walk 20 yards andit was sitting there and I
looked at this buck and I'm likesomeone else has shot a buck
with an arrow.
Like there's a buck sittingthere with an arrow out of it
and I'm looking at it.
I'm like that's my arrow andthis was 400 meters from where I

(45:42):
shot it.
So it wasn't it kind of it wasa diagonal shot, but it was.
I think it must have.
Well, either I stuffed the shotor it jumped the string a bit
and it ended up going in behindthe shoulder instead of the
front on a three-quarter.
So, um, yeah, ended up findingand managing to put it down

(46:02):
there and recovered it.
But yeah, it was.
If there's one bit of advice,don't give up.
You know, no matter whathappens out there, just keep
going.
If it's if you can't findanimals, if you've lost an
animal, just you know, don'tgive up because state forest,
you just never know when it'sgoing to happen.

Speaker 1 (46:22):
It's crazy that that just chance that you just pulled
up there, you just walked inthere and you've got skills and
knowledge and things years ofthese things built up, but if
you had moved your car 100metres further forward, you may
have never found it.

Speaker 2 (46:39):
Absolutely.

Speaker 1 (46:41):
And those things perplex me a little bit, the the
series of things that have tofall into place for everything
to work.
And this happened, um again,talk about, on the last episode.
Jack shot a fellow buck, butthe way it presented was that if
one thing changed all day, wewould never have seen that buck.
It was yep, like it was just onthe side of a hill in a little

(47:03):
hole through these blackberries,and we spotted it when we were
passing it on the track.
But if we were 30 secondsearlier, a minute later,
whatever, we wouldn't have seenit.
And just calculate the odds ofthe odds are never really
stacked in our favour.
And then you go state foresthunting and it makes it.
You know you've got otherthings to deal with and it's

(47:24):
just all the research you do,all the training you do, the
preparation takes one twig,doesn't it, dave, to ruin it for
you.
Or it just man, and that's whatmakes it.
How did you feel after youfound it?
Like that's what makes theelation worth it and that's what
people don't understand whenyou see a trophy photo of people
smiling behind an animal.

Speaker 2 (47:46):
That like it's not, hey.

Speaker 1 (47:48):
I've killed it.
It's all of the thousand otherlittle things that have come
together.
The relief.
That's one of them.
Like there's the pressure fromhome, the pressure from your
mates, pressure on yourself,it's just I don't know.
I don't think people outside ofhunting can fully understand

(48:08):
that roller coaster that youwent through over a what three
or four-hour period of hearingit seeing it, shooting it,
losing it, going back to camp,getting sick of yourself in your
head going and getting it andgut-wrenching when I couldn't
find it the first time, like Iwas like that's it, I'm selling
the bow.

Speaker 2 (48:26):
I don't want this anymore.
Like I've injured one animal,I've lost another one and I
don't know if it's injured.
I'm like this is not for me,like this is not good feelings.
You know the responsibility andlike when.
I first started hunting, likeactually, um, a mutual friend
pulled me up on it like in noneof my photos I was smiling

(48:49):
because I found it a veryserious thing.
You know, you're taking thelife of something.
I was like I don't want tosmile in this photo.
It's, you know, it feels tooheavy and he sent me a message.
He's like mate, you know you'reallowed to smile in photos,
like you know, and it took awhile to get comfortable even
just smiling in photos, becauseyou know the the weight of of

(49:10):
what you're doing and takingresponsibility for it.
But yeah, getting back to thatone, yeah, it felt terrible, but
the feeling of when I did findit, I mean it's actually hard to
describe, like I mean, I don'tknow that the birth of your
first son, that might be going abit too far, but you know, like

(49:30):
there is a I guess it's justthat weight of relief that is
just suddenly lifted and youknow all that anxiety and you
know that worry and the stressis just drained from you and
you're just left with thisfeeling of accomplishment which,
yeah, I think is hard to get inin normal life I.

Speaker 1 (49:54):
I'm going to circle back to my one state forest
story because I didn't talkabout on the last one, but I
went to nundle and and shot ared.
But there's a video of mewalking down the hill and I'm
filming myself and I'm talkingto jack and I'm gonna have to
post it because it's thegirliest, high pitchiest little
voice I'm doing.
But it's an emotion I haven'tfelt in a long time and it was

(50:14):
this absolute.
I don't know why you can't talknormally, but I've got helium
in my voice and it's just this.
I don't know, it's just.
You can't get it elsewhere.

Speaker 2 (50:28):
Yeah, and I think, especially with State Forest,
it's the amount of hard workthat you have to do and like
there's no way around it.
With State Forest it's justhard work.
You need to put in massivehours.
You know lots of of walking.
You know to be successful.
So when you are successful, youknow the the weight of all that

(50:50):
work you've done in the past.
You know suddenly is you knoweverything validated validate
absolutely.
I mean, when I got that red deerlast year, like I, I'll be
honest I started crying like Iwas had it on camera.
I had to turn the camera offbecause I started getting all
choked up.
There was 10 months of you knowserious work.
I'd probably nine, nine tripsout to this forest just doing

(51:14):
recces.
You know time away from apartner and you know all the
money spent fuel, food and allthat, um, missing family
engagements because you're sortof committed to do this.
And then when you are finallysuccessful, it's like, well,
firstly, every minute of thatpain was worth it, you know, but

(51:35):
yeah, it's, I don't know.
I've had it in climbing and inkayaking as well.
When you, when you do big trips, you know, and you get through
those, those big moments, thosesort of you know big climbs or
something like that, but yeah,it's, it's something else, and
then get to take home all themeat and feed your family for

(51:58):
months on end.

Speaker 1 (51:58):
So you know you, you eat a lot of venison.

Speaker 2 (52:03):
We primarily just we have maybe bought five steaks in
the last three years.
So we we eat a lot of venisonand goat um, pork, pork we don't
only because I'm I'm notconfident enough with pork, with
what's Wild pork, with wildpork, it's just the choice that

(52:24):
I've made and pork's not thatexpensive at the butcher,
whereas venison's really hard toget to.
We went to Fire Door, I know.
You know that fancy restaurantin Surry Hills.
We managed to get to there lastweek and we ordered to have
this 290 day nine plus wagyusteak.

(52:45):
Um, you know, it costs afortune and we're like, oh, we
have to try that.
And me and my partner both tookone bite of it and it was so
rich and so fatty.
We're like we can't eat it.
It's like we're so used tovenison now and like you know
that lean meat and that thatflavor, um, it was completely

(53:05):
wasted did you finish, you'retaking a doggy bag.

Speaker 1 (53:10):
I I forced it down yeah, it was.

Speaker 2 (53:14):
It was an expensive forced meal, but um, yeah, it's,
it's.
It's interesting what, eatingso much venison you, you know
that length.

Speaker 1 (53:22):
Call it state forest Wagyu.
State forest Wagyu, yeah.
Definitely doesn't have fat onit, unless you're doing the
velvet sort of stuff.
Have you shot anything or shotmuch in velvet?

Speaker 2 (53:32):
No, me and a mate shot a fellow a couple of weeks
ago, a really good stag, andthat was covered in fat like he
was.
He was primed up ready for the,ready for the, the rut, but I
don't know.
I've been told that the?
Uh, there's one of the enzymes,the one of the amigas in the

(53:55):
deer fat, that turns it rancid alot quicker than manufactured.
You know the beef fat.
Do you know about that?

Speaker 1 (54:07):
I'll say that no, I don't fully know that.
I have briefly listened to alittle bit about it and it was
Meat Eater podcast talking aboutit and they were saying that
even venison fat left on in afreezer will still go rancid
over time right, because fatdoesn't fully freeze, like in a
freezer like meat does.

(54:29):
It's less moisture content.
Um, yeah, so I haven't.
I don't know the answer from anaustralian point of view, but
one thing I find with fatty deeris the cap doesn't stay on
anyway, like you can't cook.
Yeah, you can't have a nicechop with the fat on it, because
it falls off, whatever thejoining layer is.
I think it's called fascia orfascia.

(54:51):
Yeah, fascia it's justnon-existent or super fine and
you end up losing it and I don'tthink I don't trim it off, I
cook it with it on there andthen it falls off, but then at
least you get some of the flavorand as it renders down and then
so I leave it on there, butit's only for looks in the
photos.
Basically, my favorite cut of afallow, like a meat, a fatty

(55:15):
fallow, is shoulder, becausethey actually lay on fat from.
This is my experience again.
Not it's just my learnings, notstudied but they lay on fat
from.
This is my experience again.
Not it's just my learnings, notstudied, but they lay on fat
from the front back.
So if you get one that's juststarting to lay on fat in, like
november or december, it'll befatty, you know, through the
neck and shoulders, but lessover the rump and loin, and it's

(55:36):
not until the end of the yearor the end of that growing
season where it's their rump andtheir tail that puts on the
last bit of fat yeah, I'm notreally sure what it is.
It just seems to be this wavethat works its way through.
But the shoulder has a lot ofintramuscular fat.
It doesn't get the cap on itbut it lays it down inside the
muscle.
So it turns, because shoulderstraditionally, you know, really

(55:58):
nice slow cooked.
But you can get away with alittle bit more, less slow
cooking in that fatty periodbecause it just has this
intramuscular moisture thathelps it stay wet.

Speaker 2 (56:10):
That would explode because I'm going to get
crucified for this.
But the front shoulders weactually we minced and we've
been eating that and we're likethis this means tastes different
to the, the other mints that wedo with the fellow.
So that would be it, just aslightly higher fat content.
Yeah, because when we do mintswe don't add any fat whatsoever.

(56:32):
I know people add pork fat orpork belly to it a percentage,
but we find it's just thestraight mints is fine, yeah,
but that little bit of deer fat,oh, that's interesting.

Speaker 1 (56:44):
Okay, I'll have to remember that one Useless
information for you.
So you said you like goat meat,now one thing you get.
I disagree with it, but thecomment is oh goat stinky billy,
stinky billy meat.
You know it's unusable.
I've seen some of the photosyou're sharing and you're not
shooting little billies.
You know you're shooting biggerbillies you're still harvesting

(57:06):
meat and noticing a flavorchange or uh, we, I think it's a
it's.

Speaker 2 (57:12):
It's a handling thing .
Um, I know my first.
When I first started, I took agoat, a couple of goats and a
fellow and my partner, but I'dproudly bring it home and cook
it up and my partner would eatit.
She's like this is disgusting,this is horrible.
And then it wasn't till muchlater that we learned it was

(57:35):
through the handling, as weactually process the meat.
So I mean, I'm a big advocateof wearing the gloves and
skinning it back and taking thatskin right back and then
changing the gloves and thenworking on the meat so that
absolutely nothing iscross-contaminating do you
change your blade or change aknife?

(57:56):
uh, no but I clean it.
I clean it, yeah, absolutelywhen it.
Whenever I change, even when Ichange the different parts of it
, I'll clean the blade, um, evenif it is just a wet wipe, I'll
give it a wet wipe down just toum, yeah, just in case there's
any little nicks in the stomachor that that I haven't noticed,
and cross contamination or stufflike that.
But I find the, the, the fur,the skin and all that touching

(58:21):
that and getting that onto themeat, that's what transfers All
the billies that we take.
We had, ali did, a goat rendangthe other night and it was the
best goat meal I've ever tastedin my life Like, and this was an
old billy as well.
So, yeah, I think that's a bitof a I don't know, maybe an old

(58:42):
wives' tale or, you know, maybe,as our knowledge is getting
better and better, we'reactually, you know, especially
back in the day, no one knew youknow, it just always tastes
like rubbish.
But you know, well, you know, Ithink we're getting better at
using the meat.

Speaker 1 (58:59):
And again, the benefit of Facebook and internet
is the sharing of knowledge andthe sharing of recipes and
things like that have you?
Do you take neck meat or theneck itself?

Speaker 2 (59:12):
Yeah, I take neck meat.

Speaker 1 (59:14):
Do you just butterfly it out like?

Speaker 2 (59:15):
bone it out.
To be honest, I'm a bit of ahack.
I haven't learned how to do theneck properly, so just kind of
hack into it.

Speaker 1 (59:25):
Have you got a hacksaw?
No, I've got a little A meatbone saw.

Speaker 2 (59:31):
No, a little bush saw you know a little folding and
you know you get like two orthree and then you've got to.

Speaker 1 (59:37):
Clean the teeth out.

Speaker 2 (59:38):
A couple of more.
And my partner's mother well,my mother-in-law, she bought me
a recipro because she quitelikes when I take the meat up
with her and she's like, oh, youknow, what would you like for
christmas?
I'm like, oh, recipro to do theanimals would be nice.
So yeah, I've tried that acouple of times, but you know
that's only if you can get theanimal back to the car, yep,

(01:00:00):
which you know, in steep stateforest is pretty difficult at
times.

Speaker 1 (01:00:04):
But no, I haven't used the bow saw.
My slice of life.
I've got stainless steel bladesnow for the recipro.
You can get them online, butthey've just started stocking
them, so they're specifically abone saw.
So it's a different directionof teeth from what I understand
and teeth per inch.
So it's a different directionof teeth from what I understand
and teeth per inch.

Speaker 2 (01:00:23):
So when you take the neck meat, do you start from the
top and then open it around?

Speaker 1 (01:00:29):
or start like Situational.
So again, depending on hanging,or by myself and I'm going to
be honest, most of my animalsare vehicular accessible, so
it's easy to winch them in atree or something, but no, I
usually go straight down theback.
There's that yellow, it'scalled the paddywhack.

(01:00:51):
It runs straight down the topof the spine just on one side of
that, and then follow the boneand go straight down out and
around by this time.

Speaker 2 (01:01:03):
I've already got the esophagus out as well because I
take that out while I'm gutting.

Speaker 1 (01:01:06):
So the whole tract, bum to chin basically comes out
in one go and then, yeah, so youcan skin your way around, bone
out your way around, and thenyou'll have one side, and then
you bone out the other side andyou have the other side.
But I want to challenge you tomy favourite meal no-transcript.

(01:01:27):
So you cut it straight eitherwith an axe or with a saw or
just cut the whole neck off andthen cut it off at the back of
the skull and take the wholeneck home and then cut it into
like two-inch steaks, basicallywith the bone in it, and then
cook it using any osso buccorecipe, but leave the bone in it
, because there's just a lot offlavour in that spinal column,

(01:01:50):
spinal cord and the bone.
You do get some shards of meat,that's some shards of bone,
from cutting it.
But it says shop from theshoulders forward are my
favorite part of the animal.
I'm not a backstrap doesn'tsuper excite me.
Um legs, I give them to.
I've got a new colleague atwork who's south af and he makes
biltong.

(01:02:10):
It's the one reason I employhim.
Don't tell him that.
But back legs for fallow andthings are perfect for that.
But yeah, front shoulders andneck are my favourite, and
because we've got young kidsthey don't love steaks.
They're a bit hoity-toity aboutthat.
So we do a lot of mince but wedo a lot of pulled meat.
So you can just drop the wholeneck in the slow cooker and pull

(01:02:33):
it, just cook it in a stock andthen pull it.
Once you've pulled it, you candivvy it up and have 10
different meals out of it.
You can do tacos, enchiladas,gravy rolls, all sorts of things
.
So I'll just do a big pulled,not for a meal, but for two or
three meals, and then, once it'spulled, I can use it in

(01:02:53):
different ways.

Speaker 2 (01:02:54):
Yeah, yeah, I must well challenge, accepted, check
the space soon and we'll seewhat we can come up with.
I do find that's one of thebiggest challenges I've found is
learning how to use the meatcorrectly.
How to use the meat correctlyum, you know, I mean what most

(01:03:19):
of my field work is, the, thegutless method.
I think they call it.
Yeah, where it's actually, youknow, because, because I'm by
myself hunting most of the time,it's just easier and quicker do
you want to give just a quicklittle rundown on what the
gutless method is?
so the gut, from what Iunderstand and correct me if I'm
wrong is you actually you leavethe guts in.
That's correct.
Yeah, is that the gutlessmethod?
Yeah, and you'd actually takethe back legs off, the front

(01:03:40):
legs off, the back, straps out,but the guts are actually left
in.
So the skin's all left on whichone, if you're traveling around
the forest, the skins or thefurs onto the pelts on to
protect the meat?
It doesn't dry out as much, um,but it's just much quicker.
Um, I still do my health check,so after I've taken all the
meat off right, so I still willopen it up to to check the

(01:04:03):
kidneys and the liver have youever found anything in a deer?
I have.
So, uh, it was bondi.
I actually took a fellowperfectly healthy.
It looked fantastic.
So I did the gutless method andthen spent ages getting all the
meat off and all that and thenchecked the liver and it

(01:04:25):
actually looked like it hadliver flukes all the way through
it.
So those little grainy, whiteGrains of rice, grains of rice
and white discoloration allalong the edge of the liver.
Um, I did keep the meat becauseI wasn't sure that was.
The rest of the animal lookedabsolutely healthy, like there
was nothing in the kidneys, youknow, the lungs looked all right

(01:04:48):
, all that sort of stuff.
There was no lesions noemphysema, smoking nothing no,
it was.
It was a pretty healthy deer, itwas a modern deer.
But then when I got home Iasked the question.
I think there's a good Facebookgroup that does a lot of that
animal health stuff.
I think there's a guy inPenrith who runs it.

(01:05:08):
Anyway, they were telling methat the meat's still okay.
But yeah, yeah, it's the organs.
Get rid of the organs, cleaneverything up.
Um, I have shot rabbits beforewhere I've opened up the joint
and I think it's it's a wormthat's specific to rabbits and
it literally it's spurted allover the kitchen table.

(01:05:30):
I mean, that was prettyconfronting.

Speaker 1 (01:05:32):
It's entertaining, yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:05:36):
I was freaking out because it's the first time I'd
experienced it, so I think Idead-holed literally from the
front door to the bedroom, justin case.

Speaker 1 (01:05:42):
You were COVID-free in the house for a while.

Speaker 2 (01:05:44):
COVID-free.
But that's the only thing I'vefound in the deer.

Speaker 1 (01:05:48):
Other than that, I've never found anything in the
deer I'm similar I've found inthe deer, other than that I've
never found anything.
I'm similar.
I found one dodgy liver, but Idon't know.
I just, yes, they can get wormsright, they live wild and it's
not, it's not unheard of, butyou know what kills worms
cooking, yeah, cooking the meatlike it's not ideal, but you're

(01:06:08):
not going to get sick from itagain.
Please someone write in andcorrect me because I'm probably
wrong.
You may get sick from it, butfrom my journey and studies and
exploration and things andconversations with hundreds of
hunters, it's as long as youcook it, it's uh, and the
benefit of again staying awayfrom the back end of the meat
and sticking to the frontshoulders and things.

(01:06:28):
Nothing's ever medium rare I'malways slow cooked, 10 hours,
whatever, yeah.
So everything's definitely yeahclear from that front.

Speaker 2 (01:06:38):
So now it's like you, sorry, when, when you hear, um,
when you hear guys fromabattoirs talking, and you know,
you ask a lot of some of thehunters are abattoirs, workers
and that, and you ask, oh look,is this a problem?
They're like, mate, like youknow you should see what happens
.
And you're like, oh okay, well,maybe it's you know, something
that we need to be worried about, and it's good to be concerned

(01:07:00):
about it, but obviously, youknow, I think we're a bit too
quick to throw caution.

Speaker 1 (01:07:08):
And I mean you did the right thing from my
perspective.
You took the meat home and thenasked the question.
You didn't leave it, ask thequestion and then go.
Oh, bugger, yeah I could havetaken that.
Um, I I personally don't mindpeople leaving meat.
I've been guilty of shootinganimals and leaving them.
It's each their own.
Everyone does their own thing.
I do it less now, if not, Idon't do it at all.
Really, I take everything, butI've got no issue with people

(01:07:32):
that leave meat or take somewhatever.
But I think you did the rightthing by taking it home yeah,
and asking the question and juston the gutless method we're
talking about you said leavingthe skin on.
Just an explanation of how Iwould do.
That would be to have theanimal on its back but legs in
the air and then I would takeyes so I call it the four wheels

(01:07:57):
and back straps.
So I take all four legs off fromthat position, cutting straight
through the fur and in thisstage I'm not worried about hair
like you get hair on theexposed meat from cutting that
open.
You've got to cut the skin andthings.
But generally once you makeyour first incision most of your
cutting's done from inside sothere's not too much hair.
And then you take your fourlegs off and then you flip it

(01:08:19):
over and get the back strap soyou do miss the tenderloins but
on a little deer you're notmissing much.

Speaker 2 (01:08:25):
You can go in and get them, but it's not.

Speaker 1 (01:08:33):
I've tried the tenderloins a few times and like
the amount of effort it is toget them like I'm like for two
sausages?

Speaker 2 (01:08:36):
yeah, it is, and that's quite interesting.
One thing I learned was bytaking the front legs off first,
you actually get that access.
Better access to the back strap?

Speaker 1 (01:08:45):
yes, um, because I've noticed I do it behind the
shoulder blade.
It drops behind the shoulderblade.

Speaker 2 (01:08:50):
It drops behind, so a lot of people will actually
take it off too early and missquite a good part of it.

Speaker 1 (01:08:57):
You can actually, if you take your front legs off,
you can follow that.
You can bone that all the wayout, including your neck meat.
It's not the same muscle butit's the same path.
So, essentially, you can takeback straps off from the back of
the ears all the way through tothe pelvis.
It's not the back strap, yeah,because it changes muscle names
and types.
But it is, yeah, after theshoulders off, it's possible it

(01:09:19):
did.

Speaker 2 (01:09:19):
I actually learned that not not that long ago.
We kept wondering why the backstrap kept changing and there
was sinew and I'm like, oh okay,the back strap ended way back
here.
Yes, I've been going way thehell up.

Speaker 1 (01:09:33):
Talking about your butchery mates and guys in abs
like I.
Just when I'm teaching, Iexplain it like beef, because
everyone knows they're beef cutsof meat.
You know, porterhouse, scotchfillet they all come from the
backstrap, what we would callthe backstrap, but that's two
different muscles.
Well, the scotch fillet isseveral different muscles joined

(01:09:57):
together and there's always thetender one right on the side.
That's really nice.
And then you've got theporterhouse section, which is
just that large chunk of redmeat, very minimal marbling with
the fat cap.
Uh, so you know that all comesfrom what hunters would call the
back strap.
Yeah, so that's your musclegroups changing through that.
So yeah, it is.

Speaker 2 (01:10:17):
I'd like to, I'd like to know more about the butchery
side of it.
I mean, I've done a few likefield courses and that, but it's
.
You know.
I've been watching a lot ofyoutubes from actual butchers to
you know to learn how, to knowhow to bone out a rear leg and
then separate your muscle groupsand then now you've got them
separated.
You know how you like it's.

(01:10:38):
It's a skill Like it takes along, I think the hunting is.

Speaker 1 (01:10:42):
It's a long video, yeah, yeah, the hunting's almost
the easy part of it.

Speaker 2 (01:10:46):
It's how to properly treat the meat afterwards.

Speaker 1 (01:10:50):
It's nearly easier to go to your mates.
Hey, you want a leg of fennison?
Here you go, there you go,there's your leg.
And just give it away insteadof cutting it all up.

Speaker 2 (01:11:00):
I have neighbours who love, not that you know.
Are you allowed to be givenmeat away?

Speaker 1 (01:11:05):
Yeah, we're all right in New South Wales.

Speaker 2 (01:11:07):
Yeah, cool, yeah, they love it.
So every time I come back I'lltake a look.
They absolutely love the movie,which is great, and that's why
you do it as well.
Right, so you can achievesuccess, and you know I use the
analogy of investing coins.

Speaker 1 (01:11:26):
Every time you shoot something, coins come out of it,
like in Donkey Kong, when yousmash the box and you grab all
the coins and then you take themhome and you're giving some to
your neighbor.
You know, you give some to yourwork colleagues.
You're investing these coins andthen they're going around
saying, geez, I met a hunteronce and he kind of gave us some
meat and it was really nice andhe's a nice guy and I think
it's just yeah, the wholesociety goodwill isn't it, you

(01:11:50):
know, especially if you can havethat conversation with them
about.

Speaker 2 (01:11:53):
You know how you got the meat, how you treated it,
the ethics behind it.
You know it only paints you know, hunters in a positive light
and I think all that helps.
You know you do get a couple ofbad apples, that sort of bring
it down, but the more goodwillyou can do and put it out there.
I mean some of the greatestconversations I've had have been

(01:12:18):
with vegans.
I mean a couple of the guysthat I work with, um, they're
vegan and they're fascinated byit because they're more about
the ethics of how the animalsare treated.
That's why they don't.
They don't eat meat.
But when you hear about yourhunting methods and the respect
you show for the animal and thefact that it's lived its
absolute best life and you knowin a fraction of a second it's
done, rather than spending twoweeks in a slaughterhouse with

(01:12:40):
all these animals it's quiterefreshing that you know those
two sort of polar opposites canhave a conversation about that.

Speaker 1 (01:12:51):
I think people miss the connection that we, as
hunters, have the most in common.
We have more in common withpure vegans than we have with
people who just buy meat fromthe shop and eat it yeah we're
both interested in the samevalues.
Yeah, and those conversationsI've had many of them and it's

(01:13:14):
the ones that are vegans, notbecause they've watched a
documentary when they were 12about pigs and that was it the
ones that are truly in, investedequally, like we are, in what
we do and hunt and consume andthe levels we go to.
They're the same.
Then the non-leather wearingyou know, don't eat lollies with
red in them because it comesfrom a bug Like the ones that

(01:13:36):
actually know and understand whythey are the way.
They are greatconversationalists because I can
talk about hunting until myteeth fall out and they're the
same.
And as long as they'rerespectful and I haven't found
one that isn't really they don'tlike you killing things, but
once you get past that fact ofit, they're quiet.

Speaker 2 (01:13:58):
It's a surprising conversation that I never
thought I would have been havingwith.
You know that section ofsociety, so yeah, it's
refreshing to find common groundin in which which is both you,
both it's all about.
You know the welfare of theanimal, right?
You know, unfortunately.

(01:14:19):
You know you do have to eat andwe love our sport and all the
challenges that go with it.
But you know the animal livesits best life.
It's technically not supposedto be in australia, so it's you
know it all kind of doing ourpart for for nature and things.

Speaker 1 (01:14:35):
I want to.
I want to get away from food,which I hate, because I love
food.
But oh, I want to circle wayback to when you started bow
hunting and then you you changedand you shot the bucks and then
you got it, and then you'vecontinued your bow hunting
journey and just recently youwent overseas and had some fun

(01:14:58):
yeah, yeah was that a?

Speaker 2 (01:15:00):
bow hunting only.
Trip, that was bow hunting onlyright, tell us about it, that's
exciting.
Uh, so a mate, mate that I'vestarted shooting with the club.
We, we touched base and met upand he, he only bow hunts.
So he doesn't, he doesn't he'sactually a member.

Speaker 1 (01:15:16):
He's a member of our local hunting club down here too
oh, that's right.

Speaker 2 (01:15:20):
Yes, yeah, so you can mention him.
Hello, mark, mark.
Hey, mark, how are you mate?
Um, yeah, so he's, we're at thesame club together and we
caught up and had a chat and hesort of he tossed out this idea
because he wanted to go to newzealand, um, but he hadn't
really had the the big mountainsort of experience, so he sort
of he was looking for someone togo over with him, just for the

(01:15:44):
safety aspect, and I thought Iwas turning I turned, just
turned 50 this year.
So I was like, well, 50thbirthday present, like safety
dave to the rescue why don't Igo hunting in new zealand?
like what a, what a great.
If I can still climb mountainsat 50, you're doing okay.
So, yeah, we ended up goingover there and it was.

(01:16:04):
We sort of wanted to stick totar.
Um, I debated taking the rifle,because mark hunts with a bow
only.
I was like, well, let's justtake the bows, that way we're
both on the same page.
You know, we're both in sync,we can both work together.
It's not two different huntshappening at the same time.

(01:16:24):
Um, yeah, that was incredible.
So we chose the West Coast thesteepest, the wettest, the
gnarliest Can.

Speaker 1 (01:16:35):
I ask what your planning was and why West Coast,
and how did you pick it fromover this side of the country?

Speaker 2 (01:16:43):
Look, planning was pretty serious, so I sat back
and I pretty much let Mark doall the work.
So I think he'd been planningit for six, nine months
beforehand.
Anyway, so he'd he'd madecontact with a lot of new
zealand hunters, with a lot ofthe community here.
He'd made a lot of contacts andgained a lot of information

(01:17:04):
from them.
Um, as to why the west coast, Icouldn't answer that I don't
even know.
It just kind of seemed it's theworst for um climate yeah, rain
and well, I think we're bothstate forest hunters so we
didn't want something easy, sowe literally chose the hardest

(01:17:24):
spot, new zealand, to go um.
I think one of the other thingswas I'd done a kayaking trip
over there and I'd kayaked theWest coast.
So I'd kayaked a lot of thoserivers, helicoptered in and then
spent a couple of days comingout of those rivers.
So one of the spots that wechose or that was a possibility
was one of the rivers that Iactually paddled.
So I had an idea of the terrainand what we were going to be in

(01:17:46):
for in the forest and that.
So we kind of defaulted on that.
Uh, and one of the guys we gotin contact through facebook here
to a helicopter company overthere, um, glacier something I
can't remember the name of it,but I could find his name great

(01:18:07):
bloke.
He was just endless informationand helped us out with
everything, because we didn't doguided or anything.
We just wanted to be droppedoff at a good spot.
That way we had a chance andthen we were just going to
figure it out for ourselves.
So, yeah, he flew us up,dropped us off at one of the
huts, the.
The idea was to go right uphigh.
But he sort of warned againstthat just because we had weather

(01:18:29):
coming in, um, and he said,look, it's pretty in hospital up
there.
If that weather does hit, whichis supposed to hit hard, it's
going to make it reallydifficult up there.
And it worked out perfect.
Would have been trapped intents for, I think, five days,
so it did hit.
So it did hit up at the top.
It hit.
It hit really bad.
I mean, we had yeah, I've been,I'll get to that later but we

(01:18:51):
had a landslide that blocked offthe highway on the way out
trying to get to the airport.
So, yeah, but I'll tell youthat later.
So he ended up putting us inone of the last huts you could
get to before the no-fly zone.
So we had a great base camp andwe were just setting off from
the hut each day, getting ashigh up as we could.
There was a couple oflandslides that stopped us from

(01:19:17):
getting right up high which iswhere all the bulls were um.
So you could see them?
Oh, we could, we were glassing,we could glass them.
There was, you know, 30, 20, 30bulls that we could glass
across all aspects and you know,each day they just appear on
different sides of the mountaindid you have a spotting scope or
just binoculars?
no, just binoculars.
So I mean, you couldn't see,you could tell they were bulls,

(01:19:38):
but you couldn't see the caliber.
But it was like, oh, that's,yeah, that's where all the big
boys are, um, but down low lotsof young bulls and lots of
nannies, um.
So, which was more than enoughfor, you know, first trip to new
zealand, you know, even if youjust see animals, it's a win,
you know, and the landscapes areincredible.

(01:19:59):
So we managed to take, uh, marktook a chamois and a tar,
possibly the oldest chamois innew zealand.
I mean, this thing was, it wasugly, it was like the ugliest
chamois you've ever seen.
But we took it.
We landed, the helicopter, tooka 200-meter walk and it was
standing there 200 meters fromcamp.
So literally like 20 minutesafter we landed, we shot a

(01:20:21):
chamois and we just looked ateach other and I was recording
it on video and I'm like, well,did that just happen?
Yeah, and I'm like I hopesomething else happens, man.

Speaker 1 (01:20:30):
Something else happens, man, because this is
the shortest video I've evermade, and Shemi are quite well
known for being curious and itis their demise sometimes they
sort of I've shot tar and beenwith clients that shot tar and
while you're skinning it ortaking photos, shemi will pop up
and say what's that noise?
What are you guys doing overthere?
And then quite often they meettheir demise from that situation

(01:20:54):
.
I've got some photos of clientswith chamois and tar in the
same photo, because we wereworking on one when this one
turned up and got there's a tripdone, so but yeah it may not
have spooked from the thehelicopter, it might have been
more curious yeah, well, I thinkthe the good this thing had no
idea we were there.

Speaker 2 (01:21:11):
so I think we were, were camped by one of the major
rivers and the noise I've made avideo of the trip, but the
noise of the river is justdeafening, raging, raging.
So even when we were, you know,I was stalking into my first
tar and I was only 30 yards fromit but I could have been

(01:21:35):
throwing rocks and it wouldn'thave heard me.
Like the river is roaring thatloud that I think that you know
the shammy with their curiosityand also this raging river made
it quite.
It wasn't easy, but it made ita lot more simple to stop on
them, just because you couldmake a few mistakes and you know

(01:21:58):
what the talus and the scree'slike over there, like you hit
one rock and it sends 40 downthe the slope.
But, um, yeah, that was a greattrip.
So we ended up with three,three tar and a chamois for the
trip that's's a great first trip.
Yeah, I think one of them isactually just down in here so
you can't quite see it with thelight.
It's a bit light.
You'll have to send us a photo,yeah, and we managed to bring

(01:22:21):
them all back too, which wasgreat.
So we're in the hut.
We boiled them out in the hutand got them all cleaned up and
coming through customs.
They were fantastic.
Any skins coming throughcustoms?
They were, they were fantastic.
Any skins.
Did you bring any skins?
No, we didn't bring the skinsbecause, because they were only
nannies and it was summer, theskins not super pretty, they

(01:22:42):
weren't great.
Um, we only had chance at onegood bull, um, which mark was up
on that one.
Um, that that was a reallypretty young bull, but the stalk
didn't happen.
He caught movement and took off, but that was probably the only
one where we would haveconsidered the skin.
But I think then you have tohave it treated and they send it
over later.

(01:23:02):
I think it's a bit more of anordeal, isn't it?

Speaker 1 (01:23:05):
Yeah, I'm pretty sure .
At the moment you can't bringgreen skins back from New
Zealand, which means just salted.

Speaker 2 (01:23:13):
That's what they said at customs.
They were like, yep, you gotthe skins and whatnot, like,
okay, no worries, you've doneeverything right with the skull,
you've cleaned it.
You know there's no goopy bitson it.
Yeah, so that was a great trip.
I mean, that was a confidencebooster, with the archery as
well, because you know it wasokay.
We went to new zealand and weactually shot tar with a bow

(01:23:36):
like that.
We can do this.
That's pretty cool for a firsttrip.

Speaker 1 (01:23:39):
So, um, I remember talking about your local archery
club.
We had one just behind mom anddad's house and I just I wasn't
joining.
I just went down there to chatand they had just had their AGM
and I said, you know, they weretalking about it and they're
like, oh, you hunt, oh, we'vegot some hunters in the club.
Yeah, no, we give an award outeach year for, you know, best

(01:24:01):
bow hunter of the year.
I was like, oh, that's prettycool, we won last year.
And they said, oh, george wonhe and I was like oh, and
they're like did you hunt?
I was like yeah yep, like I, twoweeks prior, come back from
shooting buffalo and and like Iwasn't gloating or anything, but

(01:24:21):
I was like, oh, like, anywaywhat turned out, I didn't have
to pay to be a member, I wouldjust jump the back fence at mom
and dad's and shoot theirtargets while they weren't there
yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:24:30):
So I think you find that the, the hunting clubs,
other, sorry, the, the archeryclubs, are very sport focused.
You know, it's a whole, it's.
It's like hunting and targetshooting.
You know, at the, the targetrange, it's like they're just a
different beast.
You know, and you, you seem tobe either one or the other.
Like you go to the archeryrange just to practice and to

(01:24:54):
get your sighting in and thenyou go hunting, or you go to the
archery club and then every nowand then you shoot three
rabbits.
You know it's, you don't?

Speaker 1 (01:25:03):
the two worlds don't meet that well and the same with
the rifle range.
You go there to sight your gunin to go hunting, or you go to
the rifle range and stay therebecause you're like your prs or
your long range or whateveryou're doing yeah, I think
that's I mean.

Speaker 2 (01:25:16):
I think I think the well.
I had to fulfill my obligations, of course, but I think the
last time I sat down I was likeyou know, one, two, three, four
yep.
Next one one, two, three, four,yep.
Gun sighted right.

Speaker 1 (01:25:30):
I'll go home, guys like I don't want to spend any
more money tick, yeah, it'sexpensive throwing bullets
around, yeah, yeah, what are youshooting with?

Speaker 2 (01:25:42):
um, mostly 30 06.
So I've got a back in the 90s Iwas lucky enough to get a
weatherby mark 5?
Um for a very, very reasonableprice.
Which look if.
If anyone's tempted to get aweatherby mark 5 for their first
gun, like I would highlyrecommend not to do it because

(01:26:02):
you just think that all actionsare that smooth.
So then when you buy somethingelse you're like oh, this is
actually rubbish.
Um, but I've got a backcountrymark five and also a seven mil
08.
So I sort of go between theseven mil 08 and the 30 06,
depending what I'm going for.
What's your bow?

(01:26:23):
Uh, the bow is a hoyt ventum 30, 30, 31, so it's a fairly short
axle to axle um.
But yeah, I was lucky enoughwith tax last year that I
thought, oh, what do we got?

Speaker 1 (01:26:39):
here.
I think that's a ventum, yeah,ventum 34 34, yeah, so I must
have.

Speaker 2 (01:26:46):
I've got the 30, which is a little bit shorter,
um, which I thought with thestate forest and all that and
shooting through the pines.
If that's what I'm going to do,like a shorter axle would be
better, um, being the first bow,I don't know if it makes any
difference.
I don't know if 34 would makeme a better, better bow hunter
you might have shot over thatstick instead of into it yeah,

(01:27:09):
maybe, maybe I would have liftedup a little bit higher how did
you get the bow?

Speaker 1 (01:27:14):
did you go to a bow shop or did you just buy online,
or yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:27:18):
So I actually went to a bow shop, uh, here in sydney,
um, no, no, so I actuallycouldn't get a bow through them.
It was actually.
It ended up being quitedifficult.
So I ended up going to anotherbow shop um, the other big one,
the other big one, yeah, andthey just ben since, yeah, if we

(01:27:38):
can name stuff, yeah, um, I wason, I was on my lunch break and
just rocked in there and theguys I'm looking at this and he
goes, oh, like that one on theshelf over there.
So they actually had it sittingthere and I was like, oh, okay,
I looked at my tax return andcalled the boss at home and went
, oh babe, do you think she'slike if you want to go for it?

(01:27:58):
So we ended up doing the wholething there on my lunch break
and picked it up four hourslater and we were ready to go,
cool.
So I've always believed that youknow, buy once, cry once.
I've always believed that youknow, buy once, cry once.
So spend as much money as youcan on the things that you have
to, you know, because you'llonly end up buying it again six

(01:28:22):
months later.
You know, be it.
You know rifle or wet weather,especially wet weather gear.
You know packs, bows and allthat you know.
Just buy the good stuff tostart with, like you won't
regret it.
Better to grow into somethingthan grow out of it.
Yes good point.
So, yeah, that's why, with thebow, it was like, well, just buy
something decent and hopefullythat's it for the next 10 years.
What pack?

Speaker 1 (01:28:42):
are you running?

Speaker 2 (01:28:42):
then the pack.
I'm running a Alps oh what isit?
I actually don't know.
Nowps, alps, outdoors, hybridx,it's one of those.
So it actually has a.

(01:29:11):
I really like it.
It's'll take a whole fellowbuck on the meat shelf.
It actually straps down reallytight and then you can attach
the take.
The backpack comes completelyoff, so then you can attach the
backpack over your meat.
Um, the reason I like it somuch is is the meats against
your back, so the the weight ismuch better.

(01:29:33):
I used to work in an outdoorstore so you know fitting
backpacks was a passion, so youknow it was all about have the
weight against your back.

Speaker 1 (01:29:41):
You know Well talk about that, then, because I've
learned a little bit about itand seen.
There was one shop I was in theStates and I can't remember
which one of the outdoors it was, but they had a model set up
and it was an L-shaped modellike a steel frame, and it was
hinged at the bottom and what itwas showing you was a bit like

(01:30:03):
those ads on TV where they movethe weight around on the caravan
to see where the wheels sway.
And this was moving the weightaround in your backpack to show
where the weight was on yourbody and how you know whether it
tilted forward or it stayedupright and put it all back down
on your hips.
So can you talk about usingyour background then?
What tips would you use forfitting a proper backpack?

Speaker 2 (01:30:25):
So I mean, one of the biggest problems I find when
people pack their packs,especially if it's an overnight
pack, you know the last thingyou need is your backpack and
your sorry, your tent and yoursleeping bag.
So they'll stuff all that downthe bottom, which is large
volume but very light.
Then they'll have their stoves,then they'll have their water

(01:30:46):
and their food all up the top.
So you end up with this topheavy sway which ends up.
You know, if you're walking forfour hours with a top heavy
pack, you know the amount ofenergy that you expend, you know
, trying to compensate for thatswaying motion of the pack.
It's, it's exhausting.
So what I tend to find the bestway is is you take it, get rid

(01:31:08):
of all the the packages, likeget rid of the tent, the tent's
folded flat down the very bottom, then the sleeping bags are on
the sleeping bags on the sidewith lighter stuff stuffed on
the side, and the weight issitting flat on the bottom of
the tent and all the way up themiddle sort of, you know,
against your spine.
I find it best, um, and thenyou pack your light stuff, like

(01:31:31):
your clothing and that at thetop, so you keep all your light,
your light stuff at the top ofthe pack.
Um, that way it's, it'scentered against your spine, so
it's not pulling you back likeyou're saying in in that frame
thing.
You know, it's not pulling youback, it's not tipping you over
to the side.
Um, and having the pack fittedproperly like that seems to be
the biggest, the biggest problem.

(01:31:53):
Um, one tip is you'll notice,you know, the you got the
shoulder strap that wraps overlike that, and then you have a
strap that sits up like that.
People crank it so hard and itactually pulls the shoulder
strap back this way, whichdefeats the purpose, because
then this part of the strap isnot engaging in your shoulder,

(01:32:14):
so all the weight's gettingpulled here.
So with that one, so with thatone there, it should only be
just snug enough that you takethe weight up so there's no
slack in it, but not hard enoughthat it pulls your shoulder
piece away from the shoulder.
So the shoulder piece shouldstart here and wrap evenly all

(01:32:35):
the way around the shoulder.
That way you're getting thebest weight distribution.

Speaker 1 (01:32:39):
For the people listening and not watching.
There will be a.
We'll probably.
Oh yeah, sorry guys.
No, that's fine, We'll do alittle reel or a little video,
but basically we're talkingabout a backpack that has a
frame on it and the frameextends past your shoulders a
little bit.
I've got a what have I got here?
My Kuyu pack does it.
I've got a Stone Glacier packthat does it too, and yeah, it

(01:33:01):
goes two or three inches pastyour shoulder and we're talking
about the strap that goes fromthe top of that back down to the
top of your shoulder piece.

Speaker 2 (01:33:08):
Yeah, you can just tighten it to adjust it.
The same thing about your waist.
The waistband also has usuallyhas one at the sides where you
can pull the pack into thewaistband and people crank that
so hard that it creates a gap soyou don't get that nice even
coverage of the waistband.
I mean.
A good rule of thumb is, youknow, inch below the belly
button, that's where yourbuckles sit.

(01:33:29):
Sure you cinch that up nice andtight.
Then you just take those littleside ones in a bit tighter and
then you do your shoulder ones.

Speaker 1 (01:33:37):
Um, would you be able to give a bit of a percentage
of how much weight should be onyour hips and how much should be
on your shoulders, say like a70 30?
Because I've seen people takeyou can take the shoulder straps
off and then the pack stillsort of sitting quite vertically
with all the weight on the hips.
Like, I feel like that's a bitwasted, because your shoulders
aren't doing much.

Speaker 2 (01:33:58):
But your hips are the strongest part of the body,
right, so you know this sectionof your body is where you can
take the most weight.
So, yeah, 70, 30 is probably apretty good number to stick to,
and that weight on your pelvisand things on your hips.

Speaker 1 (01:34:15):
That's downwards weight.
So it's you know, and I'll givean example In here in front of
me I've got a sliding window ora sliding door.
The sliding door is not veryheavy when it's like that, but
as soon as you start to tilt itaway from you it gets really
heavy.
But when it's up vertical, allthe weight is straight down and
still the same weight, but it'sdistributed very differently.

(01:34:35):
So down on your pelvis and thenit goes straight down through
your legs and feet is a loteasier than carrying full load
on your shoulders, like some ofthe cheaper packs yeah and look.

Speaker 2 (01:34:44):
The easiest way to do it and I've used to tell the
customers this is you know, youdo the waist belt up but leave
the shoulder straps loose andput 15 kilos of weight in the
pack and see how that feels.
Now tighten up the shoulderstraps but take the weight belt
off and you'll very quickly seeyou know which one is actually

(01:35:06):
needs to be carrying the mostweight, and also the one that
joins the two shoulder piecesacross your chest, like the only
reason that's really there isjust to stop the shoulders from
working their way off the sidesof the shoulders.
So you don't crank that.
You just have it tight enough,just so the shoulders straps sit

(01:35:27):
, you know, and don't wiggletheir way off the shoulders.
Um, I find that too.
People crank that really,really hard, but then it's
detrimental because it's pullingin, pulling the chest in and
closing it off.

Speaker 1 (01:35:39):
One thing on the the buy once, cry once topic.
But on the cheaper end of thatand I see it with a couple of
australian companies, newzealand companies, whatnot but
the cheaper backpacks.
I'm looking that way becauseI've got one next to me.
It's a duffel bag type, so it'sonly filled from the top, which
I'm not a fan of.
On a longer trip it's fine fora day trip, that's fine.

(01:36:02):
But on a longer trip I likebags that have access everywhere
, panels everywhere, becauseyou're saying you know you don't
put the things at the top justbecause you physically need them
first.
That's fine for a day trip, butif you're on a longer hike and
your lunch is heavy so it's atthe bottom, you don't want to
have to unpack everything fromthe top to get to it.
You know just whip that littleside zipper up, it's in there.

(01:36:23):
It doesn't have to be in aseparate compartment, but you
can access the layers deeperdown in the bag yeah, my alps.

Speaker 2 (01:36:30):
Alps Outdoors has a zip that you know runs in a
crescent shape at the front ofit.

Speaker 1 (01:36:34):
Right, so you can lay it on its back, open the whole
thing up without disturbingeverything Just open it up and
then you can access almost fromthe bottom to the top.
Yeah, the gutless method of abackpack, the gutless method.
Yeah, just under the backstash.

Speaker 2 (01:36:55):
That's very handy, especially if you're just
stopping for a quick you knowlunch and you want to boil up
some noodles or something youknow.
You can access all those heavystove items and all that without
having to, like you said, pullthe whole backpack apart.
Um, you just want to be reallyefficient too when you're doing
those overnight hikes hydrationyou on the bladder uh I run a
bladder um, but I'm I know a lotof people don't like the
bladders because they don't knowhow much is left, which is I'm

(01:37:17):
sort of kind of alwaysmonitoring, and you get to know
it after a lot of trips, right,you get to know, sort of gauge
how far your bladder is gettingdown.
But of late I'm carrying abladder and also a one litre
Nalgene bottle because I've beenusing these protein shakes for
lunch which I was using them allthe way through New Zealand.
I found I really, really helped, just cause you didn't carry so

(01:37:41):
much bulk with you know mueslibars and you know Twiggy sticks
and all nuts and all that sortof stuff.
So yeah, one litre Nalgene andthen a three liter hydration
bladder in the back yeah, that'sa pretty good combo right now.
It backs you up too.
So you know just.
You know it's all aboutredundancy.
So you know if you're easy tofill up a.

Speaker 1 (01:38:04):
They're actually quite hard to fill up in a river
most bladders so it's easy tofill up, you know, nalgene and
then tip it into it yeah,absolutely.

Speaker 2 (01:38:11):
And you pop your threere bladder and you're
stuffed right.

Speaker 1 (01:38:16):
Snookered yeah, One on the bladder tip before we end
it when I'm finished.
So it runs over my shoulder andthen out A couple of downsides
with bladders, obviously likeyou're saying, not knowing how
much is left, but it heats up,the water gets warm because it's
on your back, or very close toyour back, I find, and it also.
I've got a.

(01:38:36):
There you go.
Here's what I prepared earlierfor those that are.
It's out because I'm drying it,but it's the Camelback and it's
one of their fancy ones.
It's got an insulated cork.
I'm going to say it actuallydoes very minimal to nothing.
And then I've got, it's got aswitch down here, the cover, and
then everything is modular aswell for washing it, all clips
off.
But um, my point was, when Ihave a drink I will blow back

(01:39:02):
through the tube just until Ihear the bubble come into the
bag, so it empties your tube.
Because what happens is thewater sits in your tube and you
lose be it 20 mil, 50 mil ofwater because it's hot and you
spit your first mouthful out.
Yep, it's wasted.
So I just blow it back andempty it.

Speaker 2 (01:39:20):
I don't know how much is in there, I haven't, but I
reckon it'll only be 20 or 30mil I think the other benefit to
that and I don't do thatbecause of that reason, but I
will start doing it becausethat's a great tip.
But blowing the water back intothe bladder actually inflates
the bladder a little bit.
So if you've got load in yourbag, when you do bite on the
valve you don't have to suckthrough it.
It just forces the waterthrough.

Speaker 1 (01:39:41):
So it's sort of a little free drink.
No, that works too.
I get that.
You don't, because they're noteasy to pull water through, and
especially when you're huffingand puffing it's it's easy to
blow through it and then let itpush out absolutely.

Speaker 2 (01:39:55):
I mean the amount of times you have a drink and then
you're gonna stop to breathebecause you're like I'm out of
breath, like it was the hardestdrink I've ever had in my life
oh yeah, I'm not sure what yoursis like either, but this, this
camelback sorry for the noise,I'm dropping things it's got a
really wide mouth with a handle,so you can actually hold, hold
that and fill up through it, butyou can actually drop a 600ml
bottle of frozen water in there.

Speaker 1 (01:40:16):
And one, you've got a spare bottle.
Two, keeps everything cold.
And three, you can tip thatwater in there once it's fully
defrosted.
Just, you know the MountFranklin bottles, and then you
freeze them.
They'll fit through the lid andyou can.
Actually, this has got adivider in it, this one, so you
can fit uh, one down each sideand you don't get much water in

(01:40:38):
your bladder because you've gotthose in there but you've got
cold water for a lot longer seealways learning up.

Speaker 2 (01:40:45):
That's.
That's a lot of tips.

Speaker 1 (01:40:47):
I never knew that.
That's a lot of tips.
One more, because I said we'regonna go, but now we're stuck on
the bladders.
Um, I'm just trying to thinkwhat it was.
I had a good one.
Now I can't remember, that'sright if it tastes like put in
the show notes.
If it tastes like rubber, putuh lemon or rat.

Speaker 2 (01:41:01):
Let's bring juice in there first yeah, hydrolytes
actually, I'm a massive fan ofthe hydrolytes when I'm out
there as well.
Yeah, just yeah, help thatrecovery.

Speaker 1 (01:41:09):
And yeah, they're another good one right out well,
thanks for your time, dave.
We've covered a lot ofdifferent topics tonight.
It's been fun thanks for havingme, it's been great, and I
haven't asked you about yourupcoming trips because I want
you to go and enjoy those andtell us about them when you get
back, because I'm lookingforward to seeing and and
hearing how this year pans outfor you after last year's
success yeah, hopefully it will.

Speaker 2 (01:41:30):
It's just going to be a beautiful armed bushwalk in
the forest.

Speaker 1 (01:41:34):
With lots of photos of plants.
Lots of photos of plants.
I look forward to it Right.
Have a good night.
Thanks for listening and byefor now.

Speaker 2 (01:41:40):
See you Bye for now.
Bye for now.

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Ep. 9: A state forest success story with Dave from DTB Adventures

Cold Case Files: Miami