August 30, 2023 • 33 mins
Go behind the workbench to explore the unique challenges and joys of guitar repair and restoration!
What do Dana Bourgeois, Mamie Minch, and Martin Keith have in common? They’ve all been the author behind Acoustic Guitar magazine’s question-and-answer column “Ask the Expert,” for one. Now we find out what these guitar experts wish more people would ask about their instruments, and what advice they have for you.
Support the show:
- Listen to Part 2 on Patreon to hear some hair-raising repair horror stories, plus get actionable advice for you and your guitars.
- Make a one-time contribution to the show on PayPal.
- Leave a review on Apple Podcasts (This helps other guitarists find the show and helps us. We really appreciate it!)
Additional resources:
- Dana Bourgeois founded Bourgeois Guitars in 1974. He recently completed his 10,000th guitar, a custom OM Style 45.
- Mamie Minch is the co-owner of Brooklyn Lutherie and an active blues player.
- Martin Keith is a luthier, repair and restoration expert, and working musician.
- Read a selection of past Ask the Expert articles.
- Visit Frank Ford’s frets.com.
- Get a copy of the Acoustic Guitar Owner’s Manual or download the complete edition of Acoustic Guitar Care & Maintenance.
The Acoustic Guitar Podcast theme music is composed by Adam Perlmutter and performed for this episode by Jeffrey Pepper Rodgers.
This episode is hosted by Nick Grizzle, produced by Tanya Gonzalez, and directed and edited by Joey Lusterman. Executive producers are Lyzy Lusterman and Stephanie Campos Dal Broi.
The Acoustic Guitar Podcast is produced by the team at Acoustic Guitar magazine, including:
- Publisher: Lyzy Lusterman
- Editorial Director: Adam Perlmutter
- Managing Editor: Kevin Owens
- Creative Director: Joey Lusterman
- Digital Content Director: Stephanie Campos Dal Broi
- Digital Content Manager: Nick Grizzle
- Marketing Services Manager: Tanya Gonzalez
Special thanks to our listeners who support the show on Patreon.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Martin Keith (00:00):
Being a repair person, that's really like
you're putting yourself almostin a position of subservience to
the instrument, and to thework, and to the sort of arc of
history of the people that havekept this guitar alive so far.
And it's not about you.
It's about you in service ofthe guitar, somehow you know.
Nick Grizzle (00:52):
Welcome to the Acoustic Guitar Podcast.
I'm your host Nick Grizzle, andfor this episode we have a real
treat for you.
You're about to hear from apanel of true guitar experts:
Dana Bourgeois, Mamie Minch andMartin Keith.
Each of our panelists has beenthe author behind Acoustic
Guitar magazine's Ask the Expertcolumn.
This question- and- answercolumn covers guitar repair and
(01:15):
maintenance, the ins and outs ofguitar building, and many other
topics related to gear.
In this episode, we go behindthe workbench, find out what the
experts wish more guitar ownerswould ask, and a whole lot more
.
Before we get started, I'd liketo remind you that the Acoustic
Guitar Podcast is alistener-funded show.
If you're already supporting uson Patreon, thank you.
(01:37):
You'll find part two of thisepisode waiting for you there.
To join, visit patreoncom/acousticguitarplus.
Check the show notes for thatlink plus links to additional
resources related to thisepisode.
Here's a quick introduction toeach of our experts.
Dana Bourgeois is a builder whofounded Bourgeois Guitars in
1974.
(01:57):
He recently completed his10,000th guitar, a custom OM
style 45.
Mamie Minch is is the formerhead of repair at Retrofret
Guitars and is now co-owner ofBrooklyn Lutherie.
She's also an active bluesplayer.
Martin Keith is a builder andrepair and restoration expert
and a working musician based inWoodstock, New York.
(02:18):
As always, thank you for tuningin and I hope you enjoy this
episode of the Acoustic GuitarPodcast.
To start, I ask the panel whatit is about guitar repair that
they truly love.
Mamie Minch (02:29):
Oh boy, I love my job.
It's this really greatsynthesis of things that you
know to be true and things thatyou're always finding out.
So it's not like every job isthe same.
It's not like every next setpresents you with the same set
of problems or advantages.
I love the way stuff smells inthe shop.
I get like a weirdly largeamount of pleasure out of that.
(02:52):
I love my clients.
For the most part, you knowthey've sort of self-selected to
where I'm interacting withpeople who kind of know the
right questions to ask.
Yeah, I just love guitars.
I like taking them apart andputting them back together.
Nick Grizzle (03:09):
Cool.
Martin, what do you say?
Martin Keith (03:11):
I came into repair from the background new guitar
building and I worked for JoeVeillette here in Woodstock for
15 years and we did almost norepair in that shop during that
time.
And it was only when I startedworking for myself that repair
became a more important part ofmy work life, and it's so
(03:32):
different.
The things that I like aboutrepair are the things that are
different from building guitarsin a production setting.
Which are that, it's like Mamiewas saying, it's problem
solving.
Everything is a little bitdifferent.
So you don't get mired inroutine very often because every
job is always a little bit newin some way.
And I also, you know, buildingguitars as a solo builder is a
(04:00):
very solitary pursuit.
Repair kind of keeps you moreconnected with my scene of local
musicians.
I get to see really excitingold instruments that are hugely
informative to when I want tobuild new guitars.
You know, I mean, you don't getto see like old 20s and 30s
(04:22):
Martins, if you're just buildingnew stuff all day, every day.
But when you do see thoseguitars come in, you get to see
what makes them really work verywell, and you also get to see
the modes of failure that theytend to suffer from predictably,
and you get a chance to sort oftry to design some of that
stuff out of your own newinstruments.
So I feel like they're aperfect complement to each
(04:49):
other, in that way.
You know, I feel like I'm amuch better new guitar maker
because my repair repair work.
Finally, and this is kind of alittle funny, about the world of
new guitar making.
You know the late Rick Turner,who I have infinite respect for.
He used to refer to sort ofwhat he called the cork sniffing
(05:10):
world of modern boutiqueguitars.
When you go to a guitar show, ifyou walk into a handmade guitar
show with, like, you know, aD18 or something, it feels a bit
like showing up to a classiccar show with a Toyota Corolla
or something.
But the fact is, for 99% of theguitar players in the world,
(05:33):
the D18 is the BMW.
You know it's the top of theheap, and the stuff that us
handmade people are making likemay as well not exist.
When you're doing repair andworking with guitars at every
level of price, I feel like it'sreally important to keep some
perspective about when somebodybrings in, you know, a D18 or
(05:57):
you know a Bozeman J45 orsomething.
This might be a guitar thatthey've saved up for for five
years and it's like, for them,the nicest guitar you can buy.
And it's just nice to keep thatin perspective coming from the
world of fancy- pants guitars.
Nick Grizzle (06:15):
So, Dana, how about you?
What do you love aboutrepairing guitars?
Dana Bourgeois (06:17):
Well, I'll start off by agreeing with all of the
above.
It's been a long time sinceI've repaired guitars.
I did most of my repair wasback in the 80s, which is .
.
.
we're talking 40 years ago now.
The guitars that I repair thesedays are usually my own and
(06:37):
friends'.
So the thing that I love about,you know, that occasional work
that I do is breathing new lifeinto a guitar.
Breathing new life into a guitarthat might otherwise be on
someone's scrap heap.
Not necessarily a real scrapheap, but a metaphorical scrap
(07:00):
heap.
You know, "this is a funkyguitar, I'm going to get rid of
it," kind of thing.
So that's the thing thatmotivates me these days.
Back in the day when I wasdoing more repair than building,
it was a real joy to see aunique instrument come in and
get to live with it for a whileand understand it a little bit
(07:23):
and understand its problems, youknow, hopefully find some
solutions to whatever itsproblems are or were, and that
really that also informed mybuilding in ways that I didn't
(07:45):
necessarily even understand atthe time.
But sort of, looking back it'slike, okay, yeah, we do this
this way and it's because I hadtrouble with this guitar one
time and trace it all back tosome of that other stuff.
But yeah, it was an importantpart of my career and I wouldn't
(08:06):
have foregone it for anything.
Mamie Minch (08:11):
I really love the process of getting inside of
these old instruments andopening them up and figuring it
out and fixing it and gluing itback together, and it's really
satisfying when nobody knows youwere in there.
And I also really like workingwith clients day to day.
You know, I like it.
I like having people come intothe space and say "this is my
guitar, this is what's going onwith me, this is what I'm, you
(08:32):
know, this is what I would likeit to do.
I don't know if it's possible.
What do you think?
" You know I like that process.
Martin Keith (08:37):
I just wanted to chime in and say that there are
a lot of very nice old guitarsin the world that desperately
need people with Mamie's levelof skill and attention to keep
them alive.
And you know, I mean I loveseeing, like year after year,
new builders coming out, newideas.
(08:58):
But you know, I think, likesomething Mamie just said really
jumped out at me, which is andI've heard this from other
people Flip Scipio, who weprobably all know, said
something similar to me like amonth ago, where he was saying
if, "if you do the job right, noone will know you were ever
(09:19):
there, right, you know, and itgets, it gets down to like your
relationship to the work.
And if you're building a newguitar and you're putting your
name on it, and it's like beingout in front of the band and
being like "hey, look at me,whereas you know being a repair
person, that's really like.
You know people that do the kindof work where they can just go
in and it's like it neverhappened but the guitar is
(09:41):
better again.
You're putting yourself almostin a position of subservience to
the instrument, and to thework, and to the sort of arc of
history of the people that havekept this guitar alive so far.
And it's not about you.
It's about, like you, inservice of the guitar, somehow,
you know.
That's why I never put labelsin my guitars, because I think
it's like offensive to write myname, and be like "I was here,
(10:04):
you know.
Dana Bourgeois (10:06):
So, picking up on what was just said, reminded
me of an article about therestoration of a Strad
(Stradivari) violin in AmericanLutherie, probably 25 or 30
years ago.
And on the title page was animage - a drawing - of a violin
(10:28):
top.
And there was also a photo ofit and a drawing of it with you
know, 15 or 16 patches on thetop.
Each patch was numbered andthere was a little chart on the
side showing who had done whatin what century, so to speak.
So there you go, you know,keeping a fine instrument alive
(10:50):
is a long process.
Any one of us might have onelittle episode in that long
process.
Nick Grizzle (10:59):
So you all have this one thing in common
all answered reader questionsin our ask the expert column.
So over the years I'm sureyou've gotten some great ones
and probably some not so greatones.
What were some of your favoritereader questions?
Dana, let's start with you.
Dana Bourgeois (11:14):
Early on I would be handed a few questions and
say, pick what you would like toaddress, and there might be a
couple good ones.
And you know, soon we ran outof what I considered good
questions and I always thought,you know, when I wrote a column
it was always something that Ifelt that that I had to say that
(11:36):
was unique and worth saying.
And questions don't alwaysaddress that.
As a matter of fact, when Isort of quit writing the column
it was because I felt like I'drun out of, you know, new stuff
to say.
Nick Grizzle (11:50):
W ere there other questions or topics - and
anybody can jump in on this -that you wish more people would
ask about?
Martin Keith (11:59):
I feel like the importance of maintaining and
keeping track of humidity,especially in the winter, cannot
be like there should be, justlike twice a year, an article
about how to make sure that yourguitar is not gonna split open
in January.
And I really don't feel likethat point can be overdone,
because it's a meaningful partof my work- life every winter
(12:23):
when people start bringing meguitars with cracks.
It's a real drag when thathappens, you know, especially if
it's an old guitar that hasn'tcracked in 60 years and then
somebody moves to upstate NewYork from Somewhere and then all
of a sudden .
.
.
Dana (12:36):
parks it beside their wood stove.
Martin (12:39):
exactly, yeah.
Or sets it on their radiantfloor heat.
You know, which happened to meonce and opened up a seam on an
on a guitar, just from the floorcoming right up into the guitar
.
Stuff like that I really don'tfeel like it can be overstressed
, because it's the simplestthing.
Mamie Minch (12:57):
It's just the the most basic level of attention
that you can encourage one totake about their guitar.
Nick Grizzle (13:02):
Yeah, you know humidifying is important.
Dehumidifying is important.
Mamie, what are some of yourfavorite reader questions that
you can recall?
Mamie Minch (13:10):
Yeah, I had an experience kind of like Dana's,
where I mostly picked thequestions where I could say
something that I felt likepeople could use, need to hear.
I liked encouraging people togo ahead and, you know, meet a
repair person and get somethingdone.
People were often more worriedto get work done than I knew.
"I need a refret, I heard.
(13:31):
You know I heard that wouldreally improve my playing
experience, but I'm nervous.
It's expensive, I'm afraid I'mgonna get ripped off and is it,
you know, is it gonna devalue myguitar?
" Just really basic things.
And so I would always say no,you're gonna be happier, You're
gonna like using it, which makesit more valuable.
And you know, and you get achance to say, it's like tires
(13:52):
on a car.
You don't want the originaltires from your 1957 Bel Air,
they wouldn't be drivable.
You want new tires.
It's OK, it's a good idea.
People read a lot of just baselevel tomfoolery on the internet
.
So if you can really justencourage them that it's safe
(14:15):
and fine, and there are goodpeople working out there, and
you can trust them.
And, a way that you gaugewhether you can trust someone is
you ask them basic questionsand they don't talk down to you.
You know that kind of thing.
Nick Grizzle (14:26):
Martin, have you had any favorites?
Martin Keith (14:28):
A couple that I've been asked.
The one where I really feltlike I got to get up on my
soapbox was somebody that wrotein and asked about getting into
the business of guitar makingand guitar repair and asking for
advice, and it was a nicelywritten question.
It was somebody that'sobviously like being thoughtful
about this and trying to come atit from a reasonable direction.
And obviously I have a lot tosay about that, you know, and so
(14:56):
it was fun to be able to givesomebody else all the advice
that I wish I had been given.
You know, when I was startingout, I really had to cut it down
.
Usually it's supposed to belike 800 to 1,000 words and I
can't remember I must have sentAdam almost 2,000 and said
"please just edit this because Ican't, you know.
(15:18):
No, it's funny.
It's interesting to me to seethe kinds of questions that come
in, because, living in thisworld as long as all of us have,
it's easy to forget that somefolks that have played for years
or decades sometimes have neverthought about this or even have
never really taken the time tounderstand the interaction of
(15:40):
certain things in a setup, orhow a truss rod even works, or
what a truss rod even is.
I know guys that have playedfor 20 years that hardly want to
change their own strings.
Nick Grizzle (15:51):
And can I tell you that the truss rod is, like our
most popular article ever.
I'm glad.
Martin Keith (15:58):
I'm glad, you know .
And just to echo what Mamie wassaying, too, just now like
increasingly, year by year, theinternet is just a jungle of
conflicting information.
And if you didn't know, goingin, what you were looking for
and what's right and what'swrong, I just can't imagine what
it must be like to try and geta straight answer about even a
(16:20):
basic question online.
For that reason, I've tried togravitate away from the kind of
work that has subjective answersas much as possible.
Like you know, if somebodybrings me a guitar and the
bridge is coming off, like it'svery obvious what has to happen,
and there doesn't have to bemuch of a conversation about
(16:42):
like well, "how should thebridge go back on?
What's the best way to put thebridge back on for me?
" I'm just like, okay, I'm gonnatake this off, I'm gonna clean
it up, I'm gonna glue it back,it's gonna stay put,
everything's gonna be fine.
You know, and part of that justcomes from the fact that I
think all of us can feel thatyou know, like a lot of our
daily life is spent dealing withclients, negotiating with
(17:05):
clients, making our clientsunderstand the work that has to
be done, and that work is notnecessarily work that you get
paid for.
And so you know, I've talked toother repair people who just
keep taking stuff off their menu, you know, like stop doing neck
resets, stop doing this andthat, and so if I am choosy, I
(17:26):
choose the work where it's justlike it's obvious what has to
happen.
There doesn't have to be a lotof conversation, and usually
that work also kind of clustersaround like sort of more
important structural stuff.
There's either a crack in theguitar, the bridge is coming off
, the bridge plate is crackedand needs to be replaced stuff
like that or the frets are wornthrough to the wood and it's
(17:48):
just like, okay, we have tochange the frets, you know,
because it's just like it'scleaner from a client
conversation perspective, andusually there's enough of just
that stuff.
Or broken headstocks, too, isanother big one.
There's enough of that stuff tokeep you busy.
And then you don't have to getinto the more kind of
conversation- driven stuff, likepeople that are trying to get
(18:11):
that last 5% out of theirinstrument.
"And what if we do this, whatif we do that?
" You know, because that canreally just drink up your day,
you know.
Nick Grizzle (18:22):
Mamie, do you have any common issues that you see
over and over and over again?
Mamie Minch (18:26):
Sure, there's the big ones.
You know, in the wintertimeseam separations, cracks, bridge
.
.
.
I love a bridge reglue and Ilove a refret because they go so
fast.
For the most part, there's notmuch new that I can see there
and they're good money makers.
You know all the stuff thatwe're talking about, that we
like to do - a factor that comesin is how does it sort of
(18:48):
overlay on your business?
What's the time spent and whatcan you make of it?
And, frankly, like, this isstill a pretty blue collar job.
None of us are making adexecutive money.
You know, this is still a jobwhere we work for the money that
we make.
I love gluing stuff.
I really love frets.
Don't love re-gluing loosebrace ends.
(19:11):
Been doing a lot of thatrecently.
I just had a bunch of olderGibsons in the shop that had
like 80% of their braces wereloose.
So I've just coming off a weekwhere I did a bunch of that.
I like how timeless the work is.
It could be 100 years ago.
My shop would look a lot thesame, you know.
Nick Grizzle (19:28):
That's really interesting, like what would be
updated?
Mamie Minch (19:31):
The glue pot's the same; the brushes made of hair.
I have a vice.
It's 100 years old.
What else?
A lot of my tools are old.
My dad was a tool collector andso he'd say, "you need any
chisels.
I'd say yeah.
I'd say okay, cool, I got someMillers Falls from the 30s, what
do you need?
" You know, pretty basic stuff.
(19:55):
As far as what's updated, Ihave like a digital bending
iron, if I ever need to do that.
.
.
I've done some work in Cuba,with these guitar builders in
Havana.
They have these homemadeversions of all of our high tech
, expensive tools.
It's just so cool to see theirway with, say, a side bender,
(20:20):
with a wood bender.
We have one, I think it's fromLMI, and you punch in the
temperature that you want, andthen you take the wood, and you
do it, and the whole thing'sover pretty quick.
Not too much time.
These guys in Havana have aKawasaki motorcycle gas tank
that's sliced in half, and thatthey bolted down to a shingle,
and they put a hot coal inside.
(20:42):
So, that's sort of an aside totalk about how there are lots of
ways to skin a cat.
Martin Keith (20:53):
You know, if I can just jump in - you're reminding
me of something.
When I was talking about thearticle, where they asked me to
write about getting into theguitar making business, and this
is one thing that really liketalking about the
problem-solving and repair.
One of the things from thearticle was that I suggested
(21:14):
very strongly that people readguitar making books from like
the beginning .
.
.
of like Irving Sloane, BillCumpiano, Natelson.
Those books basically werewritten before there was this
vast infrastructure of companiesthat sold tools and supplies
for guitarm aking and repair.
(21:34):
Because, fundamentally, youread the Irving Sloane book, and
he's not telling you to go buythe tool from the supply house.
It's all about basicallycultivating the problem-solving
skills to make the tools youneed by yourself, because you
couldn't go buy them anywhere.
I think the sooner somebody canget into that way of thinking,
(21:57):
the better off they are.
And I feel like that's what's soexciting about repair.
It's just constantlyproblem-solving and there might
not be a tool, there might notbe a clamp that reaches the
thing you need to reach, so youhave to figure it out.
What's so exciting to me isseeing other brilliant repair
people, and just the insanelyclever stuff that they come up
(22:18):
with.
Jacks and, you know, magnets,and everything else.
And the chemistry that you'vegotten into with doing touch-up
and like reactive chemistry andstuff.
It's amazing to me, becauseit's such a sort of multivalent
way of thinking.
It's not just sticking woodtogether.
You're playing on so manydifferent levels of how it's
(22:38):
gonna look now, how it's gonnalook in 20 years.
Who worked on it last?
What did they use?
What does that mean for me?
All that kind of stuff.
It's a deep thing.
Nick Grizzle (22:47):
I'm gonna ask you a question, and if the answer is
just "maintain your humidity,we can move on, but what is,
what's something that you canrecommend for every guitar
player to do to keep theirinstruments in good shape?
Dana Bourgeois (22:59):
Well, the humidi pak was really the best
invention that has come along.
And they go in your case, andin your soundhole through these
little saddlebag thingies.
They either remove moisture inthe summertime or they add
moisture in the wintertime.
And it's so much better thanthe old you know sponge water,
(23:23):
damp it, you know, kind of thingthat will leak water into the
inside of your guitar if youdon't charge it properly, and
your guitar will be desiccated,anyhow, if you don't recharge it
at the right time, kind ofthing.
(23:43):
The humidi paks are pretty easyto handle.
I've got them in all of myguitars.
I use four of them instead ofthree, I just use an extra one.
Mamie (23:56):
Sorry to interrupt, Dana.
Mamie Minch (23:57):
How often do you replace them?
Dana Bourgeois (23:58):
Here's the thing
humidity (or if you maintainyour case environment), you
don't have to replace them thatoften.
Typically someone - it'll bethe middle of the winter, right
- the top is collapsing, andthey throw a humidi pak in.
It lasts a couple weeks beforeit turns to, you know, before it
(24:19):
turns solid.
Part of the reason for that is,I think, that the case itself -
the foam, the fabric in thecase - is as much of a humidity
sponge as the guitar itself.
In fact, more so.
So the last time I replacedmine was probably last fall, and
(24:42):
they're still good.
And another thing that I usuallyrecommend is .
.
.
You open your case, you've gotyour humidi pak or whatever
you're using in your case.
You've done everything toprotect the environment.
You open your case, pull it outto play your guitar, and you
leave your case open for twohours.
(25:02):
Right while you're playing,while you're playing beside the
wood stove or whatever it is.
Close your case! Just soon asyou take your guitar out,
because that's the environmentthat you want to maintain.
Nick Grizzle (25:17):
Martin and Mamie, any other suggestions?
You know, other little bits andpieces that players can do to
keep their instruments in topshape.
Mamie Minch (25:25):
I would say it's good to be curious.
So really throw an eyeball atit, check it out, get close, you
know, look inside, learn how to.
.
.
So this is funny.
Not everybody can do that thingwhere they close one eye and
they sight down the neck likeit's a two- by- four.
It's like rolling your tongue.
Some people just can't do it.
When I you know, do an intakeand I do that to someone's
guitar and I say, "you know what- I'm using foreshortening to
(25:47):
look at how straight your neckis, let me show you how.
" So and I say you know, it'sokay if you can't get it, but
just close one eye.
It doesn't matter which one.
The first one you close, that'sthe right one.
" because people are like righthanded and I'm like left eyed,
so I always do this.
So that's just interesting,because when you're going to
want to call me, or Martin, orDana, is when something changes.
So how it is, when you like it,I like the way it feels, this
(26:10):
feels good, I like this action,this is how this this works for
the way I play, and this isabout how it looks.
And then, if something isdifferent, you can have a look
and say, oh, I think it's thisthing.
I think I've all of a suddenI've gotten some more relief in
my neck.
Now I kind of know the languageto use when I go to my repair
person.
Martin Keith (26:27):
Absolutely! Like paying attention to when
something's not right, but alsopaying attention to when it is.
'Cause, you know what, likewhat Mamie's saying, if your
guitar just feels amazing, it'slike taking .
.
.
it's like if you get a reallygreat haircut, you take a
picture.
You take a picture of yourself.
So the next time you go to thehairstylist you can say, "I want
that you know, if your guitarfeels amazing, or if any guitar
(26:49):
feels just exactly the way youwant, try to figure out why,
what's the action, where's therelief.
This is exactly what I want tofeel, because then somebody
that's trying to reproduce thathas a target that they can
understand, even if you don'tknow how to put it into words.
You know, um, and like I just Ilove what Mamie said about
being curious like, try tounderstand the instrument you're
(27:12):
playing.
I'm always trying to get myclients to not be scared to
adjust their truss rods,provided they have the right
tool.
U nless it's like some reallywonky old guitar with a truss
rod that could break if you lookat it wrong, and those are out
there.
But if it's, you know, if it'sa relatively modern, well-made
guitar, I usually say you'd haveto work really hard to break
(27:34):
something and you'll getuncomfortable long before that
happens.
But the difference it can maketo just, you know, turn a truss
rod, like half a turn orsomething, will make the
difference between the guitarbuzzing everywhere and then
feeling great again.
And it's sometimes hard and, asa business person versus
somebody that's been a, you know, a broke musician, I always
have to strike this balance.
(27:54):
When someone says, "oh, myguitar needs a setup, it's
unplayable, and they bring it tome and I realize that all it
needs is like 30 seconds oftrust rod adjustment.
But if I do it, there's no wayI can bill them more than 10
bucks because they're going tosee it took me 30 seconds, you
know.
Dana Bourgeois (28:07):
You may only be able to charge 10 bucks for that
particular procedure, but I'msure you gain the respect of
your client.
Just for me, for honesty,they'll come back.
Martin Keith (28:22):
Well, tell you what, you know in cases like
that, I don't charge themanything because then they
really come back.
But it's also sometimes .
.
.
You know the joke, right, wherethere's the guy, the mechanic
guy brings him his car, and it'ssputtering and coughing and
black smoke is pouring out, andthe mechanic takes a look and
says I can fix that for 100bucks.
And the guy says okay, and hegives him 100 bucks.
And the mechanic takes a hammerand taps on the engine once,
(28:43):
and the car is running like atop.
And the guy says, "a hundredbucks, you tapped on it once?
! " And the mechanic says look,yeah, it was.
It was a dollar for the tap andninety nine dollars for knowing
where and how hard to do it youknow.
So there's that part too.
I've had other, moreexperienced repair people really
try to educate me about thefact that, like, something might
(29:05):
only take me half an hour,because I have, however, many
tens of thousands of dollarsworth of tools and a couple
decades behind me of being ableto do that in a half an hour.
Because I have all this stuffthat I paid for out of my own
pocket, you know, and so thevalue of the work also has to be
kept into in consideration, notjust the time it takes.
Mamie Minch (29:29):
This is the difference between knowing how
to do the work, and knowing howto learn your way into a
business.
And it's a challenge - knowinghow to do that repair versus
knowing how to like spin it sothat everyone's happy when you
charge the money that you haveto charge.
But it's not even reallynecessarily spin, because the
fact is there is reality tosaying, "yeah, I could only, I
(29:50):
can only do this in 20 minutesbecause I, because I've been
doing it for 20 years.
" or whatever you know.
And that could be as simple as Ihave a bench fee, that's it.
If it comes on my bench, that'smy fee.
Martin (30:00):
And then there's the 10 emails prior to the visit.
Dana (30:04):
And the drop-off visit and the pickup visit.
Martin Keith (30:08):
Frank Ford did this thing at Gryphon once that
he documented in it'sunbelievable.
For anyone listening, frets.
com is like one of the mostvaluable things on the internet
for anyone in our business.
God bless Frank.
He has saved me so much time somany times.
But where he kept track of howmuch time he spent dealing with
(30:29):
clients versus actually doinghis work for a week, and I think
it was like 50 / 50.
So we can only charge so muchfor the work on the bench.
But the rest of it is just youdon't get, you don't get paid.
Well, and the fact that a lotof dudes and predominantly my
repair clients are dudes .
.
.
Think it's the coolest thingever to be in a guitar making
shop, and they want a littletour.
(30:49):
You know, they want to lookaround, "oh cool, what's this?
What else do you have?
" You know it's just like andthere's 20 minutes right there,
just like the dude thinkingeverything around you is cool
and they want to know what it is.
You know.
Mamie Minch (30:58):
That's funny.
Most of my clients are women.
Martin Keith (31:00):
Yeah, lucky you.
Mamie Minch (31:03):
Not luck.
Self-selection.
You know, I also live in NewYork City where there's tons and
tons of musicians.
So imagine if you're like a gaylady in your 40s, who are you
gonna come to?
My shop! You know, probablyanyway.
But that is interesting tothink about.
Like, I really I do have adisproportionately large number
(31:26):
of women and queer people andthat kind of thing.
Martin Keith (31:30):
And I think we need more women and queer people
in our field as well.
Because all the women makersthat I know are at like the top
of the top of the field.
And they're really good at whatthey do, and I think we need
more of them, you know.
Mamie (31:42):
We just need to be more contemporary, I think.
You know what I mean?
Mamie Minch (31:45):
If we don't want this field to tank out or to
just come from one perspective.
Martin Keith (31:53):
That part of our shop shouldn't look like it did
a hundred years ago.
Mamie (31:53):
You got it.
Yeah, absolutely.
Nick Grizzle (31:57):
That's the end of part one.
Tune in to part two to hearsome hair-raising horror stories
about guitar repair and advicethat you can put into action
right now to keep your guitarsin top shape.
You'll find the link in theshow notes or you can go
directly to patreon.
com/ acoustic guitar plus.
And one more thing, while Ihave your attention.
If you've been listening tothis show for a while, you've
(32:19):
probably noticed the musicplayed at the top of every
episode.
It was composed by AcousticGuitar editorial director, Adam
Perlmutter.
We love hearing theinterpretations by podcast
guests and co-hosts, and we'dlove to hear yours too.
You'll find the music to playat patreon.
com/ acoustic guitar plus.
You don't have to be a payingmember to access it.
(32:39):
You'll also see instructionsfor submitting your recording
for a chance to be featured on afuture episode.
We can't wait to hear what youcome up with.
The Acoustic Guitar Podcast isbrought to you by the team at
Acoustic Guitar magazine.
I'm your host, Nick Grizzle.
The Acoustic Guitar Podcast isdirected and edited by Joey
Lusterman.
Tanya Gonzalez is our Producer.
Executive producers are LyzyLusterman and Stephanie Campos
(33:01):
Dal Broi.
Our theme song was composed byPerlmutter and and performed for
this episode by Jeffrey PepperRogers.
If you enjoy this podcast andwant to support us, visit our
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) As a supporter, you'll haveaccess to exclusive bonus
episodes, along with otherspecial perks.
(33:21):
And if you're already a patron,thank you so much for your
support!
Being a repair person, that's really like
you're putting yourself almostin a position of subservience to
the instrument, and to thework, and to the sort of arc of
history of the people that havekept this guitar alive so far.
And it's not about you.
It's about you in service ofthe guitar, somehow you know.
Nick Grizzle (00:52):
Welcome to the Acoustic Guitar Podcast.
I'm your host Nick Grizzle, andfor this episode we have a real
treat for you.
You're about to hear from apanel of true guitar experts:
Dana Bourgeois, Mamie Minch andMartin Keith.
Each of our panelists has beenthe author behind Acoustic
Guitar magazine's Ask the Expertcolumn.
This question- and- answercolumn covers guitar repair and
(01:15):
maintenance, the ins and outs ofguitar building, and many other
topics related to gear.
In this episode, we go behindthe workbench, find out what the
experts wish more guitar ownerswould ask, and a whole lot more
.
Before we get started, I'd liketo remind you that the Acoustic
Guitar Podcast is alistener-funded show.
If you're already supporting uson Patreon, thank you.
(01:37):
You'll find part two of thisepisode waiting for you there.
To join, visit patreoncom/acousticguitarplus.
Check the show notes for thatlink plus links to additional
resources related to thisepisode.
Here's a quick introduction toeach of our experts.
Dana Bourgeois is a builder whofounded Bourgeois Guitars in
1974.
(01:57):
He recently completed his10,000th guitar, a custom OM
style 45.
Mamie Minch is is the formerhead of repair at Retrofret
Guitars and is now co-owner ofBrooklyn Lutherie.
She's also an active bluesplayer.
Martin Keith is a builder andrepair and restoration expert
and a working musician based inWoodstock, New York.
(02:18):
As always, thank you for tuningin and I hope you enjoy this
episode of the Acoustic GuitarPodcast.
To start, I ask the panel whatit is about guitar repair that
they truly love.
Mamie Minch (02:29):
Oh boy, I love my job.
It's this really greatsynthesis of things that you
know to be true and things thatyou're always finding out.
So it's not like every job isthe same.
It's not like every next setpresents you with the same set
of problems or advantages.
I love the way stuff smells inthe shop.
I get like a weirdly largeamount of pleasure out of that.
(02:52):
I love my clients.
For the most part, you knowthey've sort of self-selected to
where I'm interacting withpeople who kind of know the
right questions to ask.
Yeah, I just love guitars.
I like taking them apart andputting them back together.
Nick Grizzle (03:09):
Cool.
Martin, what do you say?
Martin Keith (03:11):
I came into repair from the background new guitar
building and I worked for JoeVeillette here in Woodstock for
15 years and we did almost norepair in that shop during that
time.
And it was only when I startedworking for myself that repair
became a more important part ofmy work life, and it's so
(03:32):
different.
The things that I like aboutrepair are the things that are
different from building guitarsin a production setting.
Which are that, it's like Mamiewas saying, it's problem
solving.
Everything is a little bitdifferent.
So you don't get mired inroutine very often because every
job is always a little bit newin some way.
And I also, you know, buildingguitars as a solo builder is a
(04:00):
very solitary pursuit.
Repair kind of keeps you moreconnected with my scene of local
musicians.
I get to see really excitingold instruments that are hugely
informative to when I want tobuild new guitars.
You know, I mean, you don't getto see like old 20s and 30s
(04:22):
Martins, if you're just buildingnew stuff all day, every day.
But when you do see thoseguitars come in, you get to see
what makes them really work verywell, and you also get to see
the modes of failure that theytend to suffer from predictably,
and you get a chance to sort oftry to design some of that
stuff out of your own newinstruments.
So I feel like they're aperfect complement to each
(04:49):
other, in that way.
You know, I feel like I'm amuch better new guitar maker
because my repair repair work.
Finally, and this is kind of alittle funny, about the world of
new guitar making.
You know the late Rick Turner,who I have infinite respect for.
He used to refer to sort ofwhat he called the cork sniffing
(05:10):
world of modern boutiqueguitars.
When you go to a guitar show, ifyou walk into a handmade guitar
show with, like, you know, aD18 or something, it feels a bit
like showing up to a classiccar show with a Toyota Corolla
or something.
But the fact is, for 99% of theguitar players in the world,
(05:33):
the D18 is the BMW.
You know it's the top of theheap, and the stuff that us
handmade people are making likemay as well not exist.
When you're doing repair andworking with guitars at every
level of price, I feel like it'sreally important to keep some
perspective about when somebodybrings in, you know, a D18 or
(05:57):
you know a Bozeman J45 orsomething.
This might be a guitar thatthey've saved up for for five
years and it's like, for them,the nicest guitar you can buy.
And it's just nice to keep thatin perspective coming from the
world of fancy- pants guitars.
Nick Grizzle (06:15):
So, Dana, how about you?
What do you love aboutrepairing guitars?
Dana Bourgeois (06:17):
Well, I'll start off by agreeing with all of the
above.
It's been a long time sinceI've repaired guitars.
I did most of my repair wasback in the 80s, which is .
.
.
we're talking 40 years ago now.
The guitars that I repair thesedays are usually my own and
(06:37):
friends'.
So the thing that I love about,you know, that occasional work
that I do is breathing new lifeinto a guitar.
Breathing new life into a guitarthat might otherwise be on
someone's scrap heap.
Not necessarily a real scrapheap, but a metaphorical scrap
(07:00):
heap.
You know, "this is a funkyguitar, I'm going to get rid of
it," kind of thing.
So that's the thing thatmotivates me these days.
Back in the day when I wasdoing more repair than building,
it was a real joy to see aunique instrument come in and
get to live with it for a whileand understand it a little bit
(07:23):
and understand its problems, youknow, hopefully find some
solutions to whatever itsproblems are or were, and that
really that also informed mybuilding in ways that I didn't
(07:45):
necessarily even understand atthe time.
But sort of, looking back it'slike, okay, yeah, we do this
this way and it's because I hadtrouble with this guitar one
time and trace it all back tosome of that other stuff.
But yeah, it was an importantpart of my career and I wouldn't
(08:06):
have foregone it for anything.
Mamie Minch (08:11):
I really love the process of getting inside of
these old instruments andopening them up and figuring it
out and fixing it and gluing itback together, and it's really
satisfying when nobody knows youwere in there.
And I also really like workingwith clients day to day.
You know, I like it.
I like having people come intothe space and say "this is my
guitar, this is what's going onwith me, this is what I'm, you
(08:32):
know, this is what I would likeit to do.
I don't know if it's possible.
What do you think?
" You know I like that process.
Martin Keith (08:37):
I just wanted to chime in and say that there are
a lot of very nice old guitarsin the world that desperately
need people with Mamie's levelof skill and attention to keep
them alive.
And you know, I mean I loveseeing, like year after year,
new builders coming out, newideas.
(08:58):
But you know, I think, likesomething Mamie just said really
jumped out at me, which is andI've heard this from other
people Flip Scipio, who weprobably all know, said
something similar to me like amonth ago, where he was saying
if, "if you do the job right, noone will know you were ever
(09:19):
there, right, you know, and itgets, it gets down to like your
relationship to the work.
And if you're building a newguitar and you're putting your
name on it, and it's like beingout in front of the band and
being like "hey, look at me,whereas you know being a repair
person, that's really like.
You know people that do the kindof work where they can just go
in and it's like it neverhappened but the guitar is
(09:41):
better again.
You're putting yourself almostin a position of subservience to
the instrument, and to thework, and to the sort of arc of
history of the people that havekept this guitar alive so far.
And it's not about you.
It's about, like you, inservice of the guitar, somehow,
you know.
That's why I never put labelsin my guitars, because I think
it's like offensive to write myname, and be like "I was here,
(10:04):
you know.
Dana Bourgeois (10:06):
So, picking up on what was just said, reminded
me of an article about therestoration of a Strad
(Stradivari) violin in AmericanLutherie, probably 25 or 30
years ago.
And on the title page was animage - a drawing - of a violin
(10:28):
top.
And there was also a photo ofit and a drawing of it with you
know, 15 or 16 patches on thetop.
Each patch was numbered andthere was a little chart on the
side showing who had done whatin what century, so to speak.
So there you go, you know,keeping a fine instrument alive
(10:50):
is a long process.
Any one of us might have onelittle episode in that long
process.
Nick Grizzle (10:59):
So you all have this one thing in common
all answered reader questionsin our ask the expert column.
So over the years I'm sureyou've gotten some great ones
and probably some not so greatones.
What were some of your favoritereader questions?
Dana, let's start with you.
Dana Bourgeois (11:14):
Early on I would be handed a few questions and
say, pick what you would like toaddress, and there might be a
couple good ones.
And you know, soon we ran outof what I considered good
questions and I always thought,you know, when I wrote a column
it was always something that Ifelt that that I had to say that
(11:36):
was unique and worth saying.
And questions don't alwaysaddress that.
As a matter of fact, when Isort of quit writing the column
it was because I felt like I'drun out of, you know, new stuff
to say.
Nick Grizzle (11:50):
W ere there other questions or topics - and
anybody can jump in on this -that you wish more people would
ask about?
Martin Keith (11:59):
I feel like the importance of maintaining and
keeping track of humidity,especially in the winter, cannot
be like there should be, justlike twice a year, an article
about how to make sure that yourguitar is not gonna split open
in January.
And I really don't feel likethat point can be overdone,
because it's a meaningful partof my work- life every winter
(12:23):
when people start bringing meguitars with cracks.
It's a real drag when thathappens, you know, especially if
it's an old guitar that hasn'tcracked in 60 years and then
somebody moves to upstate NewYork from Somewhere and then all
of a sudden .
.
.
Dana (12:36):
parks it beside their wood stove.
Martin (12:39):
exactly, yeah.
Or sets it on their radiantfloor heat.
You know, which happened to meonce and opened up a seam on an
on a guitar, just from the floorcoming right up into the guitar
.
Stuff like that I really don'tfeel like it can be overstressed
, because it's the simplestthing.
Mamie Minch (12:57):
It's just the the most basic level of attention
that you can encourage one totake about their guitar.
Nick Grizzle (13:02):
Yeah, you know humidifying is important.
Dehumidifying is important.
Mamie, what are some of yourfavorite reader questions that
you can recall?
Mamie Minch (13:10):
Yeah, I had an experience kind of like Dana's,
where I mostly picked thequestions where I could say
something that I felt likepeople could use, need to hear.
I liked encouraging people togo ahead and, you know, meet a
repair person and get somethingdone.
People were often more worriedto get work done than I knew.
"I need a refret, I heard.
(13:31):
You know I heard that wouldreally improve my playing
experience, but I'm nervous.
It's expensive, I'm afraid I'mgonna get ripped off and is it,
you know, is it gonna devalue myguitar?
" Just really basic things.
And so I would always say no,you're gonna be happier, You're
gonna like using it, which makesit more valuable.
And you know, and you get achance to say, it's like tires
(13:52):
on a car.
You don't want the originaltires from your 1957 Bel Air,
they wouldn't be drivable.
You want new tires.
It's OK, it's a good idea.
People read a lot of just baselevel tomfoolery on the internet
.
So if you can really justencourage them that it's safe
(14:15):
and fine, and there are goodpeople working out there, and
you can trust them.
And, a way that you gaugewhether you can trust someone is
you ask them basic questionsand they don't talk down to you.
You know that kind of thing.
Nick Grizzle (14:26):
Martin, have you had any favorites?
Martin Keith (14:28):
A couple that I've been asked.
The one where I really feltlike I got to get up on my
soapbox was somebody that wrotein and asked about getting into
the business of guitar makingand guitar repair and asking for
advice, and it was a nicelywritten question.
It was somebody that'sobviously like being thoughtful
about this and trying to come atit from a reasonable direction.
And obviously I have a lot tosay about that, you know, and so
(14:56):
it was fun to be able to givesomebody else all the advice
that I wish I had been given.
You know, when I was startingout, I really had to cut it down
.
Usually it's supposed to belike 800 to 1,000 words and I
can't remember I must have sentAdam almost 2,000 and said
"please just edit this because Ican't, you know.
(15:18):
No, it's funny.
It's interesting to me to seethe kinds of questions that come
in, because, living in thisworld as long as all of us have,
it's easy to forget that somefolks that have played for years
or decades sometimes have neverthought about this or even have
never really taken the time tounderstand the interaction of
(15:40):
certain things in a setup, orhow a truss rod even works, or
what a truss rod even is.
I know guys that have playedfor 20 years that hardly want to
change their own strings.
Nick Grizzle (15:51):
And can I tell you that the truss rod is, like our
most popular article ever.
I'm glad.
Martin Keith (15:58):
I'm glad, you know .
And just to echo what Mamie wassaying, too, just now like
increasingly, year by year, theinternet is just a jungle of
conflicting information.
And if you didn't know, goingin, what you were looking for
and what's right and what'swrong, I just can't imagine what
it must be like to try and geta straight answer about even a
(16:20):
basic question online.
For that reason, I've tried togravitate away from the kind of
work that has subjective answersas much as possible.
Like you know, if somebodybrings me a guitar and the
bridge is coming off, like it'svery obvious what has to happen,
and there doesn't have to bemuch of a conversation about
(16:42):
like well, "how should thebridge go back on?
What's the best way to put thebridge back on for me?
" I'm just like, okay, I'm gonnatake this off, I'm gonna clean
it up, I'm gonna glue it back,it's gonna stay put,
everything's gonna be fine.
You know, and part of that justcomes from the fact that I
think all of us can feel thatyou know, like a lot of our
daily life is spent dealing withclients, negotiating with
(17:05):
clients, making our clientsunderstand the work that has to
be done, and that work is notnecessarily work that you get
paid for.
And so you know, I've talked toother repair people who just
keep taking stuff off their menu, you know, like stop doing neck
resets, stop doing this andthat, and so if I am choosy, I
(17:26):
choose the work where it's justlike it's obvious what has to
happen.
There doesn't have to be a lotof conversation, and usually
that work also kind of clustersaround like sort of more
important structural stuff.
There's either a crack in theguitar, the bridge is coming off
, the bridge plate is crackedand needs to be replaced stuff
like that or the frets are wornthrough to the wood and it's
(17:48):
just like, okay, we have tochange the frets, you know,
because it's just like it'scleaner from a client
conversation perspective, andusually there's enough of just
that stuff.
Or broken headstocks, too, isanother big one.
There's enough of that stuff tokeep you busy.
And then you don't have to getinto the more kind of
conversation- driven stuff, likepeople that are trying to get
(18:11):
that last 5% out of theirinstrument.
"And what if we do this, whatif we do that?
" You know, because that canreally just drink up your day,
you know.
Nick Grizzle (18:22):
Mamie, do you have any common issues that you see
over and over and over again?
Mamie Minch (18:26):
Sure, there's the big ones.
You know, in the wintertimeseam separations, cracks, bridge
.
.
.
I love a bridge reglue and Ilove a refret because they go so
fast.
For the most part, there's notmuch new that I can see there
and they're good money makers.
You know all the stuff thatwe're talking about, that we
like to do - a factor that comesin is how does it sort of
(18:48):
overlay on your business?
What's the time spent and whatcan you make of it?
And, frankly, like, this isstill a pretty blue collar job.
None of us are making adexecutive money.
You know, this is still a jobwhere we work for the money that
we make.
I love gluing stuff.
I really love frets.
Don't love re-gluing loosebrace ends.
(19:11):
Been doing a lot of thatrecently.
I just had a bunch of olderGibsons in the shop that had
like 80% of their braces wereloose.
So I've just coming off a weekwhere I did a bunch of that.
I like how timeless the work is.
It could be 100 years ago.
My shop would look a lot thesame, you know.
Nick Grizzle (19:28):
That's really interesting, like what would be
updated?
Mamie Minch (19:31):
The glue pot's the same; the brushes made of hair.
I have a vice.
It's 100 years old.
What else?
A lot of my tools are old.
My dad was a tool collector andso he'd say, "you need any
chisels.
I'd say yeah.
I'd say okay, cool, I got someMillers Falls from the 30s, what
do you need?
" You know, pretty basic stuff.
(19:55):
As far as what's updated, Ihave like a digital bending
iron, if I ever need to do that.
.
.
I've done some work in Cuba,with these guitar builders in
Havana.
They have these homemadeversions of all of our high tech
, expensive tools.
It's just so cool to see theirway with, say, a side bender,
(20:20):
with a wood bender.
We have one, I think it's fromLMI, and you punch in the
temperature that you want, andthen you take the wood, and you
do it, and the whole thing'sover pretty quick.
Not too much time.
These guys in Havana have aKawasaki motorcycle gas tank
that's sliced in half, and thatthey bolted down to a shingle,
and they put a hot coal inside.
(20:42):
So, that's sort of an aside totalk about how there are lots of
ways to skin a cat.
Martin Keith (20:53):
You know, if I can just jump in - you're reminding
me of something.
When I was talking about thearticle, where they asked me to
write about getting into theguitar making business, and this
is one thing that really liketalking about the
problem-solving and repair.
One of the things from thearticle was that I suggested
(21:14):
very strongly that people readguitar making books from like
the beginning .
.
.
of like Irving Sloane, BillCumpiano, Natelson.
Those books basically werewritten before there was this
vast infrastructure of companiesthat sold tools and supplies
for guitarm aking and repair.
(21:34):
Because, fundamentally, youread the Irving Sloane book, and
he's not telling you to go buythe tool from the supply house.
It's all about basicallycultivating the problem-solving
skills to make the tools youneed by yourself, because you
couldn't go buy them anywhere.
I think the sooner somebody canget into that way of thinking,
(21:57):
the better off they are.
And I feel like that's what's soexciting about repair.
It's just constantlyproblem-solving and there might
not be a tool, there might notbe a clamp that reaches the
thing you need to reach, so youhave to figure it out.
What's so exciting to me isseeing other brilliant repair
people, and just the insanelyclever stuff that they come up
(22:18):
with.
Jacks and, you know, magnets,and everything else.
And the chemistry that you'vegotten into with doing touch-up
and like reactive chemistry andstuff.
It's amazing to me, becauseit's such a sort of multivalent
way of thinking.
It's not just sticking woodtogether.
You're playing on so manydifferent levels of how it's
(22:38):
gonna look now, how it's gonnalook in 20 years.
Who worked on it last?
What did they use?
What does that mean for me?
All that kind of stuff.
It's a deep thing.
Nick Grizzle (22:47):
I'm gonna ask you a question, and if the answer is
just "maintain your humidity,we can move on, but what is,
what's something that you canrecommend for every guitar
player to do to keep theirinstruments in good shape?
Dana Bourgeois (22:59):
Well, the humidi pak was really the best
invention that has come along.
And they go in your case, andin your soundhole through these
little saddlebag thingies.
They either remove moisture inthe summertime or they add
moisture in the wintertime.
And it's so much better thanthe old you know sponge water,
(23:23):
damp it, you know, kind of thingthat will leak water into the
inside of your guitar if youdon't charge it properly, and
your guitar will be desiccated,anyhow, if you don't recharge it
at the right time, kind ofthing.
(23:43):
The humidi paks are pretty easyto handle.
I've got them in all of myguitars.
I use four of them instead ofthree, I just use an extra one.
Mamie (23:56):
Sorry to interrupt, Dana.
Mamie Minch (23:57):
How often do you replace them?
Dana Bourgeois (23:58):
Here's the thing
humidity (or if you maintainyour case environment), you
don't have to replace them thatoften.
Typically someone - it'll bethe middle of the winter, right
- the top is collapsing, andthey throw a humidi pak in.
It lasts a couple weeks beforeit turns to, you know, before it
(24:19):
turns solid.
Part of the reason for that is,I think, that the case itself -
the foam, the fabric in thecase - is as much of a humidity
sponge as the guitar itself.
In fact, more so.
So the last time I replacedmine was probably last fall, and
(24:42):
they're still good.
And another thing that I usuallyrecommend is .
.
.
You open your case, you've gotyour humidi pak or whatever
you're using in your case.
You've done everything toprotect the environment.
You open your case, pull it outto play your guitar, and you
leave your case open for twohours.
(25:02):
Right while you're playing,while you're playing beside the
wood stove or whatever it is.
Close your case! Just soon asyou take your guitar out,
because that's the environmentthat you want to maintain.
Nick Grizzle (25:17):
Martin and Mamie, any other suggestions?
You know, other little bits andpieces that players can do to
keep their instruments in topshape.
Mamie Minch (25:25):
I would say it's good to be curious.
So really throw an eyeball atit, check it out, get close, you
know, look inside, learn how to.
.
.
So this is funny.
Not everybody can do that thingwhere they close one eye and
they sight down the neck likeit's a two- by- four.
It's like rolling your tongue.
Some people just can't do it.
When I you know, do an intakeand I do that to someone's
guitar and I say, "you know what- I'm using foreshortening to
(25:47):
look at how straight your neckis, let me show you how.
" So and I say you know, it'sokay if you can't get it, but
just close one eye.
It doesn't matter which one.
The first one you close, that'sthe right one.
" because people are like righthanded and I'm like left eyed,
so I always do this.
So that's just interesting,because when you're going to
want to call me, or Martin, orDana, is when something changes.
So how it is, when you like it,I like the way it feels, this
(26:10):
feels good, I like this action,this is how this this works for
the way I play, and this isabout how it looks.
And then, if something isdifferent, you can have a look
and say, oh, I think it's thisthing.
I think I've all of a suddenI've gotten some more relief in
my neck.
Now I kind of know the languageto use when I go to my repair
person.
Martin Keith (26:27):
Absolutely! Like paying attention to when
something's not right, but alsopaying attention to when it is.
'Cause, you know what, likewhat Mamie's saying, if your
guitar just feels amazing, it'slike taking .
.
.
it's like if you get a reallygreat haircut, you take a
picture.
You take a picture of yourself.
So the next time you go to thehairstylist you can say, "I want
that you know, if your guitarfeels amazing, or if any guitar
(26:49):
feels just exactly the way youwant, try to figure out why,
what's the action, where's therelief.
This is exactly what I want tofeel, because then somebody
that's trying to reproduce thathas a target that they can
understand, even if you don'tknow how to put it into words.
You know, um, and like I just Ilove what Mamie said about
being curious like, try tounderstand the instrument you're
(27:12):
playing.
I'm always trying to get myclients to not be scared to
adjust their truss rods,provided they have the right
tool.
U nless it's like some reallywonky old guitar with a truss
rod that could break if you lookat it wrong, and those are out
there.
But if it's, you know, if it'sa relatively modern, well-made
guitar, I usually say you'd haveto work really hard to break
(27:34):
something and you'll getuncomfortable long before that
happens.
But the difference it can maketo just, you know, turn a truss
rod, like half a turn orsomething, will make the
difference between the guitarbuzzing everywhere and then
feeling great again.
And it's sometimes hard and, asa business person versus
somebody that's been a, you know, a broke musician, I always
have to strike this balance.
(27:54):
When someone says, "oh, myguitar needs a setup, it's
unplayable, and they bring it tome and I realize that all it
needs is like 30 seconds oftrust rod adjustment.
But if I do it, there's no wayI can bill them more than 10
bucks because they're going tosee it took me 30 seconds, you
know.
Dana Bourgeois (28:07):
You may only be able to charge 10 bucks for that
particular procedure, but I'msure you gain the respect of
your client.
Just for me, for honesty,they'll come back.
Martin Keith (28:22):
Well, tell you what, you know in cases like
that, I don't charge themanything because then they
really come back.
But it's also sometimes .
.
.
You know the joke, right, wherethere's the guy, the mechanic
guy brings him his car, and it'ssputtering and coughing and
black smoke is pouring out, andthe mechanic takes a look and
says I can fix that for 100bucks.
And the guy says okay, and hegives him 100 bucks.
And the mechanic takes a hammerand taps on the engine once,
(28:43):
and the car is running like atop.
And the guy says, "a hundredbucks, you tapped on it once?
! " And the mechanic says look,yeah, it was.
It was a dollar for the tap andninety nine dollars for knowing
where and how hard to do it youknow.
So there's that part too.
I've had other, moreexperienced repair people really
try to educate me about thefact that, like, something might
(29:05):
only take me half an hour,because I have, however, many
tens of thousands of dollarsworth of tools and a couple
decades behind me of being ableto do that in a half an hour.
Because I have all this stuffthat I paid for out of my own
pocket, you know, and so thevalue of the work also has to be
kept into in consideration, notjust the time it takes.
Mamie Minch (29:29):
This is the difference between knowing how
to do the work, and knowing howto learn your way into a
business.
And it's a challenge - knowinghow to do that repair versus
knowing how to like spin it sothat everyone's happy when you
charge the money that you haveto charge.
But it's not even reallynecessarily spin, because the
fact is there is reality tosaying, "yeah, I could only, I
(29:50):
can only do this in 20 minutesbecause I, because I've been
doing it for 20 years.
" or whatever you know.
And that could be as simple as Ihave a bench fee, that's it.
If it comes on my bench, that'smy fee.
Martin (30:00):
And then there's the 10 emails prior to the visit.
Dana (30:04):
And the drop-off visit and the pickup visit.
Martin Keith (30:08):
Frank Ford did this thing at Gryphon once that
he documented in it'sunbelievable.
For anyone listening, frets.
com is like one of the mostvaluable things on the internet
for anyone in our business.
God bless Frank.
He has saved me so much time somany times.
But where he kept track of howmuch time he spent dealing with
(30:29):
clients versus actually doinghis work for a week, and I think
it was like 50 / 50.
So we can only charge so muchfor the work on the bench.
But the rest of it is just youdon't get, you don't get paid.
Well, and the fact that a lotof dudes and predominantly my
repair clients are dudes .
.
.
Think it's the coolest thingever to be in a guitar making
shop, and they want a littletour.
(30:49):
You know, they want to lookaround, "oh cool, what's this?
What else do you have?
" You know it's just like andthere's 20 minutes right there,
just like the dude thinkingeverything around you is cool
and they want to know what it is.
You know.
Mamie Minch (30:58):
That's funny.
Most of my clients are women.
Martin Keith (31:00):
Yeah, lucky you.
Mamie Minch (31:03):
Not luck.
Self-selection.
You know, I also live in NewYork City where there's tons and
tons of musicians.
So imagine if you're like a gaylady in your 40s, who are you
gonna come to?
My shop! You know, probablyanyway.
But that is interesting tothink about.
Like, I really I do have adisproportionately large number
(31:26):
of women and queer people andthat kind of thing.
Martin Keith (31:30):
And I think we need more women and queer people
in our field as well.
Because all the women makersthat I know are at like the top
of the top of the field.
And they're really good at whatthey do, and I think we need
more of them, you know.
Mamie (31:42):
We just need to be more contemporary, I think.
You know what I mean?
Mamie Minch (31:45):
If we don't want this field to tank out or to
just come from one perspective.
Martin Keith (31:53):
That part of our shop shouldn't look like it did
a hundred years ago.
Mamie (31:53):
You got it.
Yeah, absolutely.
Nick Grizzle (31:57):
That's the end of part one.
Tune in to part two to hearsome hair-raising horror stories
about guitar repair and advicethat you can put into action
right now to keep your guitarsin top shape.
You'll find the link in theshow notes or you can go
directly to patreon.
com/ acoustic guitar plus.
And one more thing, while Ihave your attention.
If you've been listening tothis show for a while, you've
(32:19):
probably noticed the musicplayed at the top of every
episode.
It was composed by AcousticGuitar editorial director, Adam
Perlmutter.
We love hearing theinterpretations by podcast
guests and co-hosts, and we'dlove to hear yours too.
You'll find the music to playat patreon.
com/ acoustic guitar plus.
You don't have to be a payingmember to access it.
(32:39):
You'll also see instructionsfor submitting your recording
for a chance to be featured on afuture episode.
We can't wait to hear what youcome up with.
The Acoustic Guitar Podcast isbrought to you by the team at
Acoustic Guitar magazine.
I'm your host, Nick Grizzle.
The Acoustic Guitar Podcast isdirected and edited by Joey
Lusterman.
Tanya Gonzalez is our Producer.
Executive producers are LyzyLusterman and Stephanie Campos
(33:01):
Dal Broi.
Our theme song was composed byPerlmutter and and performed for
this episode by Jeffrey PepperRogers.
If you enjoy this podcast andwant to support us, visit our
patreon page at patreon.
com/ acoustic guitar plus (orfind the link in the show notes
for this episode.
) As a supporter, you'll haveaccess to exclusive bonus
episodes, along with otherspecial perks.
(33:21):
And if you're already a patron,thank you so much for your
support!
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