January 15, 2025 • 42 mins
Guitarist and singer-songwriter Courtney Hartman discusses her evolution from flashy flatpicker to introspective songwriter, the staying power of old-time music, her relationship with Bourgeois Guitars, and shares insights from teaching music.
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This episode is hosted, directed, and edited by Joey Lusterman and produced by Tanya Gonzalez. Executive producers are Lyzy Lusterman and Stephanie Campos Dal Broi.
The Acoustic Guitar Podcast is produced by the team at Acoustic Guitar magazine, including:
- Publisher: Lyzy Lusterman
- Editorial Director: Adam Perlmutter
- Managing Editor: Kevin Owens
- Creative Director: Joey Lusterman
- Digital Content Director: Stephanie Campos Dal Broi
- Marketing Services Manager: Tanya Gonzalez
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Courtney Hartman (00:00):
The thing that keeps me going is like
continuing to learn how toexpress the music that's kind of
already being already swirlingin our heads or were already
happening, and then doing thatwith people is a whole different
and beautiful thing.
Stephanie Campos (00:47):
Welcome to the Acoustic Guitar Podcast.
I'm executive producerStephanie Campos, and I'm
pleased to be sharing thisepisode with you.
Nick Grizzle and Jeffrey PepperRogers recently sat down with
guitarist, singer and writerCourtney Hartman.
They discuss Hartman'sevolution from flashy flat
picker to introspectivesongwriter, insights from
teaching music, her relationshipwith bourgeois guitars, the
(01:11):
staying power of old-time musicand so much more.
If you enjoy this episode,please consider joining the
Acoustic Guitar Patreoncommunity, where your
contribution of $1 per month ormore supports creating resources
for guitarists like this show.
You'll also get some extraspecial perks in return.
Learn more at patreoncom slashacoustic guitar plus what's been
(01:34):
inspiring your playing lately?
Courtney Hartman (01:36):
that's a really good question.
A couple things come to mind.
We've been listening to, likeyou know, like old time music
around the house and playing formy daughter.
There's a different like likewhat can I do to make her smile?
That kind of lightness.
But um, learning from clawhammer, banjo players and fiddle
(01:56):
players is always something I'dlike to do, but have had more
time at home to do a little moreof that.
And and then in the songwritingrealm, writing just about the
season of life and co-writingwith people who are in, or have
been in similar seasons.
Jeffrey Pepper Rodgers (02:12):
Now, when you talk about claw hammer,
banjo and fiddle and old timemusic and things, are you
talking about taking ideas fromthat over to guitar, because I
know you play these otherinstruments as well?
Are you doing both?
Courtney Hartman (02:26):
yeah, I have not been playing those other
instruments as much, but moretaking them to guitar.
Um, transcribing very looselybecause I haven't.
It's been years since I'veeither transcribed by writing
down or but you know exactly.
But but yeah, learning them onguitar.
I feel like it pulls me out ofsome like guitar-y habits and
(02:51):
just opens up new spaces for me.
Jeffrey Pepper Rodgers (02:55):
So is all this for you feeding into
songwriting or doinginstrumental work as well?
Courtney Hartman (03:03):
Yes, and I think it it all feeds.
Um, you know, it's kind of likeit's always everything is
feeding, feeding everything insome way.
Um, I do find that when I'm ina songwriting zone, like
songwriting for me is not umexercising my guitar muscle or
(03:24):
or like exercising that part ofmy brain or that part of like
what I love to do, and at acertain point maybe it will like
I'll after the song is written.
Maybe then there's like guitar,more integrated guitar stuff
that feels challenging andbeautiful and exciting.
Otherwise it does feel likeit's two separate parts of me
(03:45):
and so sometimes when I'm in asongwriting zone, the guitar
part of me might lapse a littlebit in that space, or vice versa
, if I'm focused on working onguitar things, then I might not
be writing as much, and part ofthat is just the nature of
having limited time.
More and more so is like achild is in our life, and that
(04:08):
takes time, takes a lot of time.
Nick Grizzle (04:10):
Your songwriting, your songs on your albums, not
bluegrassy stuff, you know, inthe traditional picking kind of
sense.
Right, like you know, it's verydifferent.
Courtney Hartman (04:20):
Hmm, I mean, I haven't like played bluegrass
in a long time, as far as youknow.
Uh, playing it out, it'sdefinitely what I grew up on and
I still love it and it's andit's a joyful thing.
Um, but as far as my ownwriting, I just, I guess I I
write what comes out, what comesto me, and and that's
(04:45):
influenced by everything I hear,I think.
I think we're all just kind ofthis amalgamation of what we've
absorbed.
Jeffrey Pepper Rodgers (04:53):
You said not really playing bluegrass
out so much at this point.
But I'm wondering what are someof the things that you feel
like the grounding in bluegrassand fiddle tunes and that music
carry over into the music thatyou are playing now?
Courtney Hartman (05:10):
Playing tunes and learning tunes and these
melodies that are like simpleand yet intricate, like the way
they move through differentshapes of a very few number of
notes you know, different shapesof a very few number of notes,
you know and there's like arhythm in the melody and the way
(05:31):
that phrases repeat and thenthere are like slight shifts
that like make the tune what itis.
And there's this huge volume ofmaterial that really is like,
when it boils down to it, likeit's been hugely informative in
(05:51):
how I think about melody and howI write melody for songs.
And then just the timelessnessof the songs that come from that
(06:19):
repertoire, again like simpleand yet you dig in and you're
like, oh, my goodness, and youknow the intricacies are once
you go a few levels deeper.
So that to me, has completelyformed who I am as a songwriter.
Then the way that, like crookedfiddle tunes, which are just
(06:42):
like tunes that don't have umsquare phrases so they might
have an extra phrase of five orum, an extra phrase of six bars
or something, um and it's justcalled crooked, is how you would
, you know, call that.
To me that also has informed,like um just allowing the, the,
(07:02):
either the lyrics or the melodyto just like take precedence
over keeping things square andkeeping things like normal, um,
and I think that is so, I love,I love that.
Jeffrey Pepper Rodgers (07:14):
That's the kind of stuff that I get to
them and to those songs.
And one of the things that Iwas realizing is that you know,
in terms of guitar, like there'sa lot of very lush guitar going
(07:36):
on in your songs but there'svery little of like a
conventional guitar solo kind ofthing going on in there, of
like a conventional guitar solokind of thing going on in there.
I'm just wondering, is thatsort of a conscious choice to
steer in that direction or isthat just sort of what the
material seems to want?
Courtney Hartman (07:58):
Mm-hmm, I think a little bit of both,
something that I got a littleburnt out on playing in the
bluegrass context and needing toalways project.
It was always a matter of justlike, am I being heard?
Because guitar is hard tocapture in that way, especially
(08:22):
in a band context, and so therewas that question and just
always needing to play basicallyas loud as you could right.
That's the thing.
As acoustic guitar players.
But also for soloing, I hadthis question like why am I
(08:44):
taking a solo here?
Or what is this doing to thesong, what is this doing to the
listener's imagination asthey're listening to the lyrics,
and am I actually doinganything to carry them somewhere
?
And so that informed how Ithought about improvising over
those songs.
But it also maybe there was apart of me that just was like
(09:06):
I'm tired of just soloing, right, and so I think when I went to
create my own music, I wasn'tintentionally not doing that, it
was just that there wasn'talways, it didn't always feel
like it was necessary and Ididn't want to do it unless it
was necessary.
And yeah, as I'm creating now,like I miss that like visceral
(09:33):
feeling of just like opening upmusically and being able to
carry a whole band with you know, you're kind of like the horse
at the front of the carriagewhen you're take, when you're
singing or when you're playing asolo, and that feeling is
amazing.
And so there's a, there's a.
I can sense that in me is like,oh yeah, a part of me does love
that and loves the freedom andjust opening that comes in doing
(10:00):
that kind of improvisation butyou don't want to feel like,
okay, verse chorus, verse chorus.
Jeffrey Pepper Rodgers (10:07):
Now I got to do a solo because that's
what happens next yeah, thatdoesn't to me.
Courtney Hartman (10:12):
That doesn't do anything for me if it, if it
doesn't serve the, the song.
And so in the, in the contextof like playing acoustic guitar,
solo, rhythm, and just feelinglike your only real battle was
like whether you were heard ornot, that was, you know, me in
my mid-20s, like that was thequestion.
Early 20s was like I wanted toknow.
(10:45):
I wanted to know and be able tocapture the sound of, like my
thumb, the skin on my thumb,against the string, like the
intimacy of sound.
I wanted that.
And then I also wanted to justlike be big and wide and lush
with sound.
You know, in that context,which you can't necessarily do
with a guitar either and youcan't have sustain.
So I think I was wanting bothand I and that was where both of
(11:09):
those sounds were coming fromwas just wanting to explore that
in a way I hadn't been able toin terms of creating those,
those kind of textures and andsongs.
Jeffrey Pepper Rodgers (11:21):
I was wondering and I'm actually not
sure about this whether tuningsat all are part of that
landscape for you and insongwriting somewhat.
Courtney Hartman (11:33):
I don't think I lean on it as much as I could,
or as much as some folks um do.
I tend to find a tuning thatI'm excited about and then I
write a bunch in that tuning,and so I've done a little bit
less of just like going to amore random place, although
(11:57):
there's a song off of Gladeright at my back and I couldn't.
I recorded a number ofdifferent guitar parts and so
then, after the recording wasdone and I needed to figure out
how to play it, I ended up withthis.
Really weird when you juststrum it it's very out and
dissonant, but I wanted to beable to hit the bass notes on
(12:19):
the low strings and also playthe high part, so it worked
backwards in that case of youknow the song happening, and
then, after the recording wasdone, figuring out a wacky
tuning was what was necessary inorder to recreate the recording
of it.
But yeah, it's, it is.
(12:40):
It is a really beautiful way ofopening up new things, I think.
Nick Grizzle (12:46):
You're also a teacher.
You taught at the Blue RidgeGuitar Camp recently, I saw, and
a lot of other places, I'm sure.
How has teaching beenfulfilling for you as a
guitarist?
Courtney Hartman (13:00):
What I have found is that, let's see, I like
teaching and it's inspiring.
I don't always love.
You know like it can get alittle bit old to just teach
like right hand technique, or tojust teach like here's how to
(13:23):
play this tune, and you do thatover and over again, or you do
that at camps, and that to me,feels like it becomes draining.
When I can teach with thecontext of this group of people
or this person.
They're coming here and beingtotally vulnerable in trying
(13:45):
something that is new to them oris maybe difficult to them, or
in sharing a song that opens upa part of them.
I think a shift for me happenedwhen I saw people doing that
and I got to just be there andhelped guide them through that
place of vulnerability or helpedguide them into a place of like
(14:07):
feeling brave or into a placeof connecting with a stranger
when you're improvising together.
And then all of a sudden Iwatched them walk away and
they're friends and thenhopefully they walk back into
their life, getting home, andthey're able to be more
courageous in their job orthey're able to be more open
with a partner.
(14:28):
To me, when teaching stopped atjust we're going to play guitar.
I had a hard time connectingwith it and being present as a
teacher when I felt like, oh, ohno, this is a, this is a door
which you know because you can.
Students might go, they leave,they come back and they're
(14:50):
basically the same level.
They're not.
Most of them aren't reallygoing um, progressing in a way
that can like make you feelsatisfied as a teacher, but we,
we don't see the progressionthat might happen in their lives
as a whole, and so, if I can bea part of impacting their lives
as a whole, whether that's in alesson or a workshop or a camp,
(15:12):
what are some things that youfeel like you have learned for
yourself about guitar or aboutsongwriting by being in that
position of trying to help otherpeople do it?
Jeffrey Pepper Rodgers (15:28):
Have you taken lessons away that you've
helped you understand thingsabout what you do yourself?
Courtney Hartman (15:36):
This year I feel like every season I end up
teaching a little bitdifferently, because I'm
learning different thingsRecently, like talking about the
power of listening and howoften we play our instruments,
and there's that initial likechildlike curiosity about sound
(15:57):
Right, childlike curiosity aboutsound right, which we all can
point back to where we were.
Just like this sound is amazing, like I'm doing, I'm making
this motion and this sound iscoming out and we're just
(16:20):
totally captivated by the sound.
And then we get a little bitmore into, like the obsession
over how to make the sound and Ithink sometimes we forget to
actually listen to what's comingout of our instruments.
I know that I do, um, and soreally that's just a matter of
like being present.
And so we get, we get caught upwith like, um, you know, how am
I what?
What are my hands doing?
(16:40):
Am I moving into this position?
Am I?
I'm not going fast enough, I'mnot.
I wonder what they're thinkingwe, all of those adult, adult
kind of things that we getcaught up with and we're no
longer just like listening andbeing present with like what the
sound is today, in this moment.
So that's something that's like.
I mean, that's a life oflearning for me, otherwise it's,
(17:03):
um, I think I learn a lot aboutmy own body through teaching
and teaching, you know, as I'mslunched over right now, um,
teaching about body awarenessand especially anybody, like
I've had difficulty with myhands in the past, um and kind
of currently have to be extramindful.
(17:24):
But watching these people whoare older and in a different
season of life where they havean extra need to be aware of
their body in order to continueplaying guitar, that kind of
helps me reprioritize that formyself.
Nick Grizzle (17:41):
It reminds me of.
You gave an interview toAcoustic Guitar Magazine in 2017
, and you were talking about theshape of notes, and this, what
you're talking about here withbeing mindful and really
listening to the sounds comingout of your instrument makes me
(18:02):
think of that and I wanted tosee if you could expand on that
idea where you were talkingabout the shape of notes.
It was so.
The full quote uh was uh, Ididn't want to play guitar like
a guitar player.
Uh, russ Barenberg was one ofthe earliest guys where I
remember very specifically beinglike I want to sound the way he
sounds.
It wasn't all about just thenotes, it was about the shape of
(18:25):
the notes.
Courtney Hartman (18:26):
Okay, interesting, courtney, if I time
machine myself back there in mymind, like the notes is like,
rather than this kind of like 2Dflat thing that just like kind
of pummels forward, the therebeing like a roundness to the
(18:50):
notes, but also, like you know,the shape of the notes, like how
it's different as a, as afiddle player, that can have
this swelling note, um, thatsustains some.
What does that look like?
If we try to create that noteon guitar, to play a note that
comes out of a trumpet, howwould that feel if we played
that on guitar or a piano, likeI think I probably listen more
(19:12):
to piano than to any otherinstrument.
As far as just like in life andaround the house, how does that
look?
And how does, yeah, that theshape of notes?
In that way it could be theshape of the sound wave, like if
you're watching pro tools orsomething, because that's
fascinating too um, and, likeyou know, the, the big kind of
(19:35):
full belliedness of a big bassnote or um.
But I think more than anythingwas just probably referring to
emulating other instruments inthat way plus.
Jeffrey Pepper Rodgers (19:47):
The thing that makes me think of is
I mean, russ Barenberg is such aa singing kind of guitar player
, much more vocal orientedplayer in a way, than, as
opposed to the, you know the,the barreling, you know fast
notes kind of thing.
Um, and I and that's somethingthat I hear in a lot of your
(20:10):
playing as well, in addition tomaybe other instruments more of
a vocal quality yeah, that'sgreat.
Courtney Hartman (20:17):
That's what I want.
Something I often teach isgetting people to sing what they
hear in their head, and then wepractice translating that to
guitar as fluidly as possible,kind of in small steps and when
I'm playing.
My best I think it's whenthat's happening unconsciously
(20:42):
and and fluidly and I'm notrelying on the guitar-y things
that I've learned over the years, but really just like playing
what's what's in my head andwhat's responding to the people
around me.
Nick Grizzle (20:56):
Yeah, I see there's a lot in jazz where a
player will be singing alongwith their playing.
Do you ever do that?
Courtney Hartman (21:04):
I do that as a practice not in public, yeah
and even just as a warm up to dothat, practicing being led by
your voice rather than leadingwith your instrument.
If you can like, get reallyquiet and practice hearing
what's in your head.
Often, if we pick up the guitar, we go to play the same things
(21:29):
Somehow I'm always playing inthe key of E or just playing
with open strings.
In that way, if I practice justgetting quiet in more of a
meditative way, hearing what'sin my head and then going to
play, I think that's just likeexercising that muscle of of um,
constantly, um, notsurrendering um.
(21:53):
Maybe it's like uniting withwhat's in already in your body
and what's in your mind, ratherthan always defaulting to what
our hands are used to doing so.
Jeffrey Pepper Rodgers (22:06):
You were a guest artist in one of my
songwriting workshops, and oneof the things that you talked
about then was carving outregular blocks of time just to
write whatever comes to youduring that time.
I'm wondering what, to you, isthe value of structuring things
like that as opposed to justwriting when something strikes
(22:30):
you and inspiration strikes you.
Courtney Hartman (22:32):
In the season I'm in now, which is full of
parenting, a little munchkin, ifI didn't carve out space, it
wouldn't happen.
I don't think.
Well, I think carving out spacealso just reminds me that, like
, yep, this is a part of who Iam and what I love, and then
(22:55):
maybe inspiration will come thatafternoon right.
In an ideal world, I would havespace in the morning to do some
writing, and then that muscleis kind of like it's warmed up,
and so then, if something comeslater in the day or in a
conversation, I'm more prone torecognize it and either jot it
(23:16):
down or capture it for later, orjust like file it away and
tomorrow we'll get there, liketomorrow we'll return to that
place.
Um, I go through, you know, likeI don't write every, I don't
write every day all the time.
I go through seasons wherethat's important, um, to write
every day, and and so there'sthat, and then, and then
(23:38):
something else takes prominencefor a little while, whether
that's like playing everymorning or something else.
But yeah, there's something tome about the consistency that
just opens you up, or opens meup, to say yes to whatever is
there.
Jeffrey Pepper Rodgers (23:58):
Would you say the same thing is
valuable for just playing.
I mean that it's a sort ofcarve out structure time, like
okay, this is my guitar timeright now.
Courtney Hartman (24:11):
That sounds awesome.
That sounds so great.
For the last like month and ahalf, I would go out to the
garden every morning beforetemple daughter was awake
usually or sometimes, you know,if my husband was watching her
for a minute and even 10 minutesof just standing and playing
(24:31):
and being in the presence oflike the sounds of trees and
birds in the morning, it's sogreat.
That's that like feels like itenlivens my day and then I've
touched my guitar that day.
This might always exist for me,but it's like if I go through
days where I haven't played likesome things off, my hands feel
weird and I'm happier if I justget to play a little bit every
(24:52):
day, but it's not like an houror two hours or four.
It's like maybe I can play for10 minutes and that feels like a
win.
If I get more, more than that,that's also great, but right now
that's where it's at.
Jeffrey Pepper Rodgers (25:06):
I know for me personally with
parenthood came this whole newunderstanding of experience, of
just kind of joyful outbreaks ofmusic in the house, you know
beyond, just like, okay, I'mgoing to try to write a song or
I'm going to try to play rightnow.
Outbreaks of music in the house,you know, mm-hmm, yeah, beyond.
(25:27):
Just like, okay, I'm going totry to write a song or I'm going
to try to play right now, butjust sort of like the way kids
just have music flying out ofthem all the time.
Are you experiencing that inyour home?
Courtney Hartman (25:35):
Yes, and Temple has just started like
dancing.
She loves to like dance andgroove.
I don't know where these dancemoves come from, but she's got
like a little clogging move thatshe gets excited about and so
that makes you want to like singa song or play the banjo or
whatever it is, and I thinkthat'll.
I hope that just continues tobecome more of like I don't know
(25:57):
.
I think we're sillier andthat's awesome, but also just
making music happen and turningit on, because you can literally
see it change a mood andsometimes that's so necessary.
Nick Grizzle (26:10):
What is something that maybe comes up pretty
regularly with your students.
Are there things that they cometo you with, or questions, or
maybe things that you see ingeneral, that you find yourself
wanting to point out to them orsuggest to students just time
(26:30):
and time again, time and timeagain.
Courtney Hartman (26:31):
Well, some people were working on
songwriting, so that's specific.
Some people were working onsongwriting and guitar playing,
or singing and guitar playing.
I think, as far as guitarplaying goes, often we end up
talking about one good use ofour bodies, allowing, you know,
(26:56):
using our weight and not ourmuscles, using rather the weight
of our muscles so that we'renot bringing in extra tension.
That's really important for meto.
That's an important thing thatI want to instill in people and
help walk them through.
And the other thing, I think,is really just helping people to
acknowledge and begin toexpress the music that's inside
(27:19):
of them.
Like, that sounds so simple andeven corny, but that's what
it's about, I think.
In the end, if people can feellike they have the tools to do
that, in a way where they're notjust reading a tablature solo
and trying over, you know, for ayear to like precisely play
(27:41):
that one thing, to me thatdoesn't feel as inspiring it
might be to some people, sothat's great.
But the thing that keeps megoing is like continuing to
learn how to express the musicthat's kind of already swirling
(28:02):
in our heads or we're alreadyhappening, and then doing that
with people is a whole differentand beautiful thing.
Nick Grizzle (28:08):
Well, how about for yourself?
What's the best piece of guitaradvice you've ever received?
Courtney Hartman (28:13):
There's a couple.
I have this swirl of thingsthat come to mind.
Early on, a guitarist named UweKruger helped me un-anchor my
wrist and that totally changedmy playing.
I'm showing you in the video,but if I just describe it, if
your wrist is anchored on thebridge, you can see in your
forearm all the muscles engageand so lifting that to where
(28:38):
your hand was in this more of aresting position, like if you
were swinging your arms by yourside, there's all these
beautiful angles that happenthen a really straight angle
from your shoulder down to yourelbow, a nice straight line from
your elbow to your wrist, andso un-kinking my wrist in that
way was a big thing as like ayou know, 12 or 13 year old.
(29:00):
So that was a big piece, Ithink, in my mind early on.
Also like watching guitaristsplay.
There's a in my mind BrianSutton just playing at Rocky
Grass, which was a big festivalthat I loved a lot, or
(29:23):
influential festival, I mean thewhole body nature of playing
and being in rhythm.
And Julian Lodge, similar thing.
Like we don't need it's notjust our arms but our whole
bodies, and so what are yourfeet doing?
How are your ribs opening, andthat kind of attentiveness and
(29:43):
also like engagement and it justlike it feels better when
you're allowing your body andyour core to move and groove and
be a part of it.
To move and groove and be apart of it and I think it's also
you produce a better sound andpotentially, can engage in a
different way with an audience.
I got to record with BillFrizzell for the album I did
(30:05):
called Ready Reckoner and Ithink, sitting across from him
and watching him, just the carewith which he gave to every
single note, like there was norushing through anything,
obviously because it's BillFrizzell, but just so much care
(30:27):
and presence with every note andit made me feel held and I
think it yeah, it was.
It definitely influenced me asI, as I continue to grow and
learn and life changes andshifts happen, um, I'm excited
to continue to learn and and togrow and create, in whatever
(30:50):
season it is, and that and it'lllook different.
It might not always be in theform of albums, it might not
always be in the form of playingshows for seasons, but it's
still something I care about alot.
Nick Grizzle (31:06):
So, changing gears a bit, I wanted to ask you
about your actual instruments,your guitars.
I see you're a big fan of thebourgeois and the smart archtop
that you have Drew you to thoseoriginally, and what keeps you
coming back to those, becauseyou seem very passionate about
those?
I know people who play guitartend to love their instruments
(31:29):
right, there's a reason theyhave them but I feel like you're
even more passionate aboutthese particular ones for some
reason that's great.
Courtney Hartman (31:40):
Um, let's see so with Dana Bourgeois I I used
to, like my dad so graciouslywould take me to NAMM, which is
like the big convention in um,california I don't know.
He got had a friend who wasable to get tickets and I loved
it.
You know it's like it isoverstimulation central, but I
(32:03):
just loved getting to go playall the instruments and that.
And IBMA, like the conventionarea, I just like loved getting
to go play.
So Dana would have a booth atboth of those and was so kind
and I didn't have like a real, Ihad a, I had a Taylor.
Those are real guitars.
(32:23):
Um, it was one with a lot ofinlay which I was always like a
little embarrassed about.
My dad liked buying instrumentson eBay but uh, I knew Brian
Sutton played a bourgeois for awhile and mostly I just like
liked the instruments andcallings.
You know I like to go into allthe booths, that's what I like
(32:43):
doing.
And then Dana helped me outwhen I was in need of an
instrument.
My guitar got crushed and hejust loaned me one and since
that time time we've had more ofa kind of a working
relationship where I've playedthings that he was working on
and wanted to try out, and he'sbuilt things for me that, like I
(33:06):
had a pilgrimage guitar that hebuilt.
That's one of my favoriteinstruments tiny little, he
calls it the piccolo, and I justsaid I was going to walk the
Camino and that's like a thatwas 500 miles and I wanted to
take a guitar.
So he built the mostlightweight thing and durable
thing he could and it's sospecial and I've written so much
(33:30):
music on it and recorded somuch with it.
It's just like it's a totallyspecial instrument to me anyhow.
So that's bourgeois.
And then Lawrence Smart he builtthe archtop that I play, which
I love, and he's this a reallykind, wonderful person in Idaho,
(33:52):
I guess you, I really value theartistry of these builders and
the fact that like it's a livingrelationship, like there's
something so magical about oldinstruments and if I have the
money someday maybe I'll have anold instrument that I love.
(34:13):
But that's just like not beenmy zone, but I have had these
really great relationships withcurrent builders and I think
that's just something I value alot.
So, yeah, played Lawrence's.
We were at a camp together inWyoming and then I didn't ever
(34:35):
give it back to him.
So I think I want to buy thisand have this as my own.
And then, more recently, thefolks over at Pre-War, matt and
Wes.
I have a guitar modeled after aJ45 that they built and I got
that from them about a year ago.
After J45 that they built and Igot that from them about a year
(35:00):
ago.
Totally love it.
It's been so fun to play andagain like just getting to know
them and they're just like twoof the kindest people ever and
they are so passionate and sogood at what they do.
It's yeah, that's a yeah,that's a real gift.
Nick Grizzle (35:16):
What would be your , like you know, dream vintage
guitar.
Courtney Hartman (35:21):
Oh, I mean, I think like an old, like Martin
Dreadnought, partly because it'sjust ingrained in me that
that's the guitar right, and notall of them are really special,
but the ones that are there,there's nothing like it so the
(35:44):
arch top, though, is it's notnot your typical bluegrass
guitar, uh, so what?
Jeffrey Pepper Rodgers (35:50):
what is the what is the arch top
specifically do for you, or whyare you drawn to that?
Courtney Hartman (35:57):
I think initially I liked it because it
wasn't a bluegrass guitar itfelt good to sing with, and most
of the time now I play itthrough an amp, which is great.
I love that.
It responds really well tobeing tuned down and usually
I'll have it down a half step ora whole step and that for me
(36:19):
provides such a nice thing tosing over, especially if I'm
playing solo, or a lot of timesI'll play with just duo, with a
drummer, and so I can fill upsome of that bottom space with
that guitar in a way that Ican't with an acoustic or a
dreadnought.
I have it handy.
Nick Grizzle (36:52):
I don't have it plugged in, but I can certainly
play a second.
Courtney Hartman (36:58):
It also has this nice a bit of a more
rounded high end that I like andright now it's tuned down a
(37:26):
half step so that gives a senseof like it can be really honky,
which I don't utilize all thatoften or always love, but
there's a richness, I think.
Jeffrey Pepper Rodgers (37:38):
Just to circle back, one other question
about guitars, the little guitarthat you took traveling.
Is that a high-tuned guitar oris it a standard pitch?
Courtney Hartman (37:51):
That one I often keep tuned down a little
bit as well, um, sometimes ahalf step, or with um this
artist, s Carey, that I've, Iplay with him pretty often
there's a couple songs whereit's nice to have that down a
whole step, um, and it gets thisreal like kind of thummy, just
(38:18):
like deep, rich, kind of as ifyou were playing a left hand
muted piano line of like thatkind of sound.
Yeah, so that's possible.
And then that guitar went outon tour with Nickel Creek for a
minute in an emergency situation.
That guitar went out on tourwith Nickel Creek for a minute
(38:39):
in an emergency situation wherethey needed an instrument and
Sarah had it, I think withNashville Tuning.
So that was a high strung uphigh.
So, yes, both I guess.
Nick Grizzle (38:52):
It must be pretty lightweight.
Courtney Hartman (38:53):
if you can bring it on a 500-mile walk,
then it was lightweight until Iput a pickup in it, but it still
is very lightweight.
I mean, they did an incrediblejob.
Yeah, I'm so grateful for thatinstrument.
Nick Grizzle (39:10):
Is that something they make usually, or was that
something you said?
Here's what's in my head.
Can you make this?
Courtney Hartman (39:18):
yeah, exactly, and I didn't even.
I called dana, just being like,okay, here's a stupid idea.
I think I'm gonna do this walkand I want to take a guitar.
I asked him, thinking he mightrecommend, like you know, um,
the taylor, little tiny one orwhich I can't remember what
that's called pretty greatinstrument for the size and
(39:40):
price point.
But he was just like, well,could I build you something?
And so, of course, yeah, yeah,uh, yeah, duh.
And then that what I didn'tnecessarily expect was how much
I've used it in the studio, justbecause of how unique its sound
is.
Nick Grizzle (39:59):
Have you been recording in the studio any new
materials lately?
Courtney Hartman (40:03):
Yeah, I have.
I have just finished two weeksof tracking for a new record.
Jeffrey Pepper Rodgers (40:08):
So what kind of direction is your latest
music going in?
Courtney Hartman (40:14):
I don't even totally know the answer to that.
I think there's an acousticelement to this album.
I think that just came from memissing that a bit.
And this one, whereas Glade wasabout, I mean, I recorded most
(40:35):
of that alone, had some friendssend parts in, but a lot of it
was just alone at the computerfor months and I missed playing
music with people so much, andso that was important for me,
for this one was to be inrelationship with people
(40:58):
musically and also just likeenergy-wise, so that's a big
part of it.
Jeffrey Pepper Rodgers (41:03):
Are you talking about a rhythm section?
Drums, bass, whatnot?
Courtney Hartman (41:09):
Yeah, and there'll be some other more
acoustic elements.
But really, just like all ofthese people are really good at
what they do and we get in aroom together and that's a
moment that we rarely get tohave.
Getting to record with peopleis like such a special thing and
such a privilege.
And then recording with anengineer who's really good at
(41:31):
what they do, you know, it'sjust like.
That's an amazing experiencethat sometimes I take for
granted.
Stephanie Campos (41:44):
The Acoustic Guitar Podcast is produced by
the team at Acoustic GuitarMagazine.
This show is directed andedited by Joey Lesterman.
Tanya Gonzalez is our producer.
Executive producers are LizzieLesterman.
Tanya gonzalez is our producer.
Executive producers are lizzielesterman and me, stephanie
campos.
Our theme music was composed byadam perlmutter and performed
for this episode by jeffreypepper rogers.
(42:05):
If you'd like to support thepodcast, we are on patreon at
patreoncom slash acoustic guitarplus.
As a supporter, you'll haveaccess to bonus episodes, guitar
lessons, song transcriptionsand more, and if you, as a
supporter, you'll have access tobonus episodes, guitar lessons,
song transcriptions and more,and if you're already a patron.
Thank you so much for yoursupport.
The thing that keeps me going is like
continuing to learn how toexpress the music that's kind of
already being already swirlingin our heads or were already
happening, and then doing thatwith people is a whole different
and beautiful thing.
Stephanie Campos (00:47):
Welcome to the Acoustic Guitar Podcast.
I'm executive producerStephanie Campos, and I'm
pleased to be sharing thisepisode with you.
Nick Grizzle and Jeffrey PepperRogers recently sat down with
guitarist, singer and writerCourtney Hartman.
They discuss Hartman'sevolution from flashy flat
picker to introspectivesongwriter, insights from
teaching music, her relationshipwith bourgeois guitars, the
(01:11):
staying power of old-time musicand so much more.
If you enjoy this episode,please consider joining the
Acoustic Guitar Patreoncommunity, where your
contribution of $1 per month ormore supports creating resources
for guitarists like this show.
You'll also get some extraspecial perks in return.
Learn more at patreoncom slashacoustic guitar plus what's been
(01:34):
inspiring your playing lately?
Courtney Hartman (01:36):
that's a really good question.
A couple things come to mind.
We've been listening to, likeyou know, like old time music
around the house and playing formy daughter.
There's a different like likewhat can I do to make her smile?
That kind of lightness.
But um, learning from clawhammer, banjo players and fiddle
(01:56):
players is always something I'dlike to do, but have had more
time at home to do a little moreof that.
And and then in the songwritingrealm, writing just about the
season of life and co-writingwith people who are in, or have
been in similar seasons.
Jeffrey Pepper Rodgers (02:12):
Now, when you talk about claw hammer,
banjo and fiddle and old timemusic and things, are you
talking about taking ideas fromthat over to guitar, because I
know you play these otherinstruments as well?
Are you doing both?
Courtney Hartman (02:26):
yeah, I have not been playing those other
instruments as much, but moretaking them to guitar.
Um, transcribing very looselybecause I haven't.
It's been years since I'veeither transcribed by writing
down or but you know exactly.
But but yeah, learning them onguitar.
I feel like it pulls me out ofsome like guitar-y habits and
(02:51):
just opens up new spaces for me.
Jeffrey Pepper Rodgers (02:55):
So is all this for you feeding into
songwriting or doinginstrumental work as well?
Courtney Hartman (03:03):
Yes, and I think it it all feeds.
Um, you know, it's kind of likeit's always everything is
feeding, feeding everything insome way.
Um, I do find that when I'm ina songwriting zone, like
songwriting for me is not umexercising my guitar muscle or
(03:24):
or like exercising that part ofmy brain or that part of like
what I love to do, and at acertain point maybe it will like
I'll after the song is written.
Maybe then there's like guitar,more integrated guitar stuff
that feels challenging andbeautiful and exciting.
Otherwise it does feel likeit's two separate parts of me
(03:45):
and so sometimes when I'm in asongwriting zone, the guitar
part of me might lapse a littlebit in that space, or vice versa
, if I'm focused on working onguitar things, then I might not
be writing as much, and part ofthat is just the nature of
having limited time.
More and more so is like achild is in our life, and that
(04:08):
takes time, takes a lot of time.
Nick Grizzle (04:10):
Your songwriting, your songs on your albums, not
bluegrassy stuff, you know, inthe traditional picking kind of
sense.
Right, like you know, it's verydifferent.
Courtney Hartman (04:20):
Hmm, I mean, I haven't like played bluegrass
in a long time, as far as youknow.
Uh, playing it out, it'sdefinitely what I grew up on and
I still love it and it's andit's a joyful thing.
Um, but as far as my ownwriting, I just, I guess I I
write what comes out, what comesto me, and and that's
(04:45):
influenced by everything I hear,I think.
I think we're all just kind ofthis amalgamation of what we've
absorbed.
Jeffrey Pepper Rodgers (04:53):
You said not really playing bluegrass
out so much at this point.
But I'm wondering what are someof the things that you feel
like the grounding in bluegrassand fiddle tunes and that music
carry over into the music thatyou are playing now?
Courtney Hartman (05:10):
Playing tunes and learning tunes and these
melodies that are like simpleand yet intricate, like the way
they move through differentshapes of a very few number of
notes you know, different shapesof a very few number of notes,
you know and there's like arhythm in the melody and the way
(05:31):
that phrases repeat and thenthere are like slight shifts
that like make the tune what itis.
And there's this huge volume ofmaterial that really is like,
when it boils down to it, likeit's been hugely informative in
(05:51):
how I think about melody and howI write melody for songs.
And then just the timelessnessof the songs that come from that
(06:19):
repertoire, again like simpleand yet you dig in and you're
like, oh, my goodness, and youknow the intricacies are once
you go a few levels deeper.
So that to me, has completelyformed who I am as a songwriter.
Then the way that, like crookedfiddle tunes, which are just
(06:42):
like tunes that don't have umsquare phrases so they might
have an extra phrase of five orum, an extra phrase of six bars
or something, um and it's justcalled crooked, is how you would
, you know, call that.
To me that also has informed,like um just allowing the, the,
(07:02):
either the lyrics or the melodyto just like take precedence
over keeping things square andkeeping things like normal, um,
and I think that is so, I love,I love that.
Jeffrey Pepper Rodgers (07:14):
That's the kind of stuff that I get to
them and to those songs.
And one of the things that Iwas realizing is that you know,
in terms of guitar, like there'sa lot of very lush guitar going
(07:36):
on in your songs but there'svery little of like a
conventional guitar solo kind ofthing going on in there, of
like a conventional guitar solokind of thing going on in there.
I'm just wondering, is thatsort of a conscious choice to
steer in that direction or isthat just sort of what the
material seems to want?
Courtney Hartman (07:58):
Mm-hmm, I think a little bit of both,
something that I got a littleburnt out on playing in the
bluegrass context and needing toalways project.
It was always a matter of justlike, am I being heard?
Because guitar is hard tocapture in that way, especially
(08:22):
in a band context, and so therewas that question and just
always needing to play basicallyas loud as you could right.
That's the thing.
As acoustic guitar players.
But also for soloing, I hadthis question like why am I
(08:44):
taking a solo here?
Or what is this doing to thesong, what is this doing to the
listener's imagination asthey're listening to the lyrics,
and am I actually doinganything to carry them somewhere
?
And so that informed how Ithought about improvising over
those songs.
But it also maybe there was apart of me that just was like
(09:06):
I'm tired of just soloing, right, and so I think when I went to
create my own music, I wasn'tintentionally not doing that, it
was just that there wasn'talways, it didn't always feel
like it was necessary and Ididn't want to do it unless it
was necessary.
And yeah, as I'm creating now,like I miss that like visceral
(09:33):
feeling of just like opening upmusically and being able to
carry a whole band with you know, you're kind of like the horse
at the front of the carriagewhen you're take, when you're
singing or when you're playing asolo, and that feeling is
amazing.
And so there's a, there's a.
I can sense that in me is like,oh yeah, a part of me does love
that and loves the freedom andjust opening that comes in doing
(10:00):
that kind of improvisation butyou don't want to feel like,
okay, verse chorus, verse chorus.
Jeffrey Pepper Rodgers (10:07):
Now I got to do a solo because that's
what happens next yeah, thatdoesn't to me.
Courtney Hartman (10:12):
That doesn't do anything for me if it, if it
doesn't serve the, the song.
And so in the, in the contextof like playing acoustic guitar,
solo, rhythm, and just feelinglike your only real battle was
like whether you were heard ornot, that was, you know, me in
my mid-20s, like that was thequestion.
Early 20s was like I wanted toknow.
(10:45):
I wanted to know and be able tocapture the sound of, like my
thumb, the skin on my thumb,against the string, like the
intimacy of sound.
I wanted that.
And then I also wanted to justlike be big and wide and lush
with sound.
You know, in that context,which you can't necessarily do
with a guitar either and youcan't have sustain.
So I think I was wanting bothand I and that was where both of
(11:09):
those sounds were coming fromwas just wanting to explore that
in a way I hadn't been able toin terms of creating those,
those kind of textures and andsongs.
Jeffrey Pepper Rodgers (11:21):
I was wondering and I'm actually not
sure about this whether tuningsat all are part of that
landscape for you and insongwriting somewhat.
Courtney Hartman (11:33):
I don't think I lean on it as much as I could,
or as much as some folks um do.
I tend to find a tuning thatI'm excited about and then I
write a bunch in that tuning,and so I've done a little bit
less of just like going to amore random place, although
(11:57):
there's a song off of Gladeright at my back and I couldn't.
I recorded a number ofdifferent guitar parts and so
then, after the recording wasdone and I needed to figure out
how to play it, I ended up withthis.
Really weird when you juststrum it it's very out and
dissonant, but I wanted to beable to hit the bass notes on
(12:19):
the low strings and also playthe high part, so it worked
backwards in that case of youknow the song happening, and
then, after the recording wasdone, figuring out a wacky
tuning was what was necessary inorder to recreate the recording
of it.
But yeah, it's, it is.
(12:40):
It is a really beautiful way ofopening up new things, I think.
Nick Grizzle (12:46):
You're also a teacher.
You taught at the Blue RidgeGuitar Camp recently, I saw, and
a lot of other places, I'm sure.
How has teaching beenfulfilling for you as a
guitarist?
Courtney Hartman (13:00):
What I have found is that, let's see, I like
teaching and it's inspiring.
I don't always love.
You know like it can get alittle bit old to just teach
like right hand technique, or tojust teach like here's how to
(13:23):
play this tune, and you do thatover and over again, or you do
that at camps, and that to me,feels like it becomes draining.
When I can teach with thecontext of this group of people
or this person.
They're coming here and beingtotally vulnerable in trying
(13:45):
something that is new to them oris maybe difficult to them, or
in sharing a song that opens upa part of them.
I think a shift for me happenedwhen I saw people doing that
and I got to just be there andhelped guide them through that
place of vulnerability or helpedguide them into a place of like
(14:07):
feeling brave or into a placeof connecting with a stranger
when you're improvising together.
And then all of a sudden Iwatched them walk away and
they're friends and thenhopefully they walk back into
their life, getting home, andthey're able to be more
courageous in their job orthey're able to be more open
with a partner.
(14:28):
To me, when teaching stopped atjust we're going to play guitar.
I had a hard time connectingwith it and being present as a
teacher when I felt like, oh, ohno, this is a, this is a door
which you know because you can.
Students might go, they leave,they come back and they're
(14:50):
basically the same level.
They're not.
Most of them aren't reallygoing um, progressing in a way
that can like make you feelsatisfied as a teacher, but we,
we don't see the progressionthat might happen in their lives
as a whole, and so, if I can bea part of impacting their lives
as a whole, whether that's in alesson or a workshop or a camp,
(15:12):
what are some things that youfeel like you have learned for
yourself about guitar or aboutsongwriting by being in that
position of trying to help otherpeople do it?
Jeffrey Pepper Rodgers (15:28):
Have you taken lessons away that you've
helped you understand thingsabout what you do yourself?
Courtney Hartman (15:36):
This year I feel like every season I end up
teaching a little bitdifferently, because I'm
learning different thingsRecently, like talking about the
power of listening and howoften we play our instruments,
and there's that initial likechildlike curiosity about sound
(15:57):
Right, childlike curiosity aboutsound right, which we all can
point back to where we were.
Just like this sound is amazing, like I'm doing, I'm making
this motion and this sound iscoming out and we're just
(16:20):
totally captivated by the sound.
And then we get a little bitmore into, like the obsession
over how to make the sound and Ithink sometimes we forget to
actually listen to what's comingout of our instruments.
I know that I do, um, and soreally that's just a matter of
like being present.
And so we get, we get caught upwith like, um, you know, how am
I what?
What are my hands doing?
(16:40):
Am I moving into this position?
Am I?
I'm not going fast enough, I'mnot.
I wonder what they're thinkingwe, all of those adult, adult
kind of things that we getcaught up with and we're no
longer just like listening andbeing present with like what the
sound is today, in this moment.
So that's something that's like.
I mean, that's a life oflearning for me, otherwise it's,
(17:03):
um, I think I learn a lot aboutmy own body through teaching
and teaching, you know, as I'mslunched over right now, um,
teaching about body awarenessand especially anybody, like
I've had difficulty with myhands in the past, um and kind
of currently have to be extramindful.
(17:24):
But watching these people whoare older and in a different
season of life where they havean extra need to be aware of
their body in order to continueplaying guitar, that kind of
helps me reprioritize that formyself.
Nick Grizzle (17:41):
It reminds me of.
You gave an interview toAcoustic Guitar Magazine in 2017
, and you were talking about theshape of notes, and this, what
you're talking about here withbeing mindful and really
listening to the sounds comingout of your instrument makes me
(18:02):
think of that and I wanted tosee if you could expand on that
idea where you were talkingabout the shape of notes.
It was so.
The full quote uh was uh, Ididn't want to play guitar like
a guitar player.
Uh, russ Barenberg was one ofthe earliest guys where I
remember very specifically beinglike I want to sound the way he
sounds.
It wasn't all about just thenotes, it was about the shape of
(18:25):
the notes.
Courtney Hartman (18:26):
Okay, interesting, courtney, if I time
machine myself back there in mymind, like the notes is like,
rather than this kind of like 2Dflat thing that just like kind
of pummels forward, the therebeing like a roundness to the
(18:50):
notes, but also, like you know,the shape of the notes, like how
it's different as a, as afiddle player, that can have
this swelling note, um, thatsustains some.
What does that look like?
If we try to create that noteon guitar, to play a note that
comes out of a trumpet, howwould that feel if we played
that on guitar or a piano, likeI think I probably listen more
(19:12):
to piano than to any otherinstrument.
As far as just like in life andaround the house, how does that
look?
And how does, yeah, that theshape of notes?
In that way it could be theshape of the sound wave, like if
you're watching pro tools orsomething, because that's
fascinating too um, and, likeyou know, the, the big kind of
(19:35):
full belliedness of a big bassnote or um.
But I think more than anythingwas just probably referring to
emulating other instruments inthat way plus.
Jeffrey Pepper Rodgers (19:47):
The thing that makes me think of is
I mean, russ Barenberg is such aa singing kind of guitar player
, much more vocal orientedplayer in a way, than, as
opposed to the, you know the,the barreling, you know fast
notes kind of thing.
Um, and I and that's somethingthat I hear in a lot of your
(20:10):
playing as well, in addition tomaybe other instruments more of
a vocal quality yeah, that'sgreat.
Courtney Hartman (20:17):
That's what I want.
Something I often teach isgetting people to sing what they
hear in their head, and then wepractice translating that to
guitar as fluidly as possible,kind of in small steps and when
I'm playing.
My best I think it's whenthat's happening unconsciously
(20:42):
and and fluidly and I'm notrelying on the guitar-y things
that I've learned over the years, but really just like playing
what's what's in my head andwhat's responding to the people
around me.
Nick Grizzle (20:56):
Yeah, I see there's a lot in jazz where a
player will be singing alongwith their playing.
Do you ever do that?
Courtney Hartman (21:04):
I do that as a practice not in public, yeah
and even just as a warm up to dothat, practicing being led by
your voice rather than leadingwith your instrument.
If you can like, get reallyquiet and practice hearing
what's in your head.
Often, if we pick up the guitar, we go to play the same things
(21:29):
Somehow I'm always playing inthe key of E or just playing
with open strings.
In that way, if I practice justgetting quiet in more of a
meditative way, hearing what'sin my head and then going to
play, I think that's just likeexercising that muscle of of um,
constantly, um, notsurrendering um.
(21:53):
Maybe it's like uniting withwhat's in already in your body
and what's in your mind, ratherthan always defaulting to what
our hands are used to doing so.
Jeffrey Pepper Rodgers (22:06):
You were a guest artist in one of my
songwriting workshops, and oneof the things that you talked
about then was carving outregular blocks of time just to
write whatever comes to youduring that time.
I'm wondering what, to you, isthe value of structuring things
like that as opposed to justwriting when something strikes
(22:30):
you and inspiration strikes you.
Courtney Hartman (22:32):
In the season I'm in now, which is full of
parenting, a little munchkin, ifI didn't carve out space, it
wouldn't happen.
I don't think.
Well, I think carving out spacealso just reminds me that, like
, yep, this is a part of who Iam and what I love, and then
(22:55):
maybe inspiration will come thatafternoon right.
In an ideal world, I would havespace in the morning to do some
writing, and then that muscleis kind of like it's warmed up,
and so then, if something comeslater in the day or in a
conversation, I'm more prone torecognize it and either jot it
(23:16):
down or capture it for later, orjust like file it away and
tomorrow we'll get there, liketomorrow we'll return to that
place.
Um, I go through, you know, likeI don't write every, I don't
write every day all the time.
I go through seasons wherethat's important, um, to write
every day, and and so there'sthat, and then, and then
(23:38):
something else takes prominencefor a little while, whether
that's like playing everymorning or something else.
But yeah, there's something tome about the consistency that
just opens you up, or opens meup, to say yes to whatever is
there.
Jeffrey Pepper Rodgers (23:58):
Would you say the same thing is
valuable for just playing.
I mean that it's a sort ofcarve out structure time, like
okay, this is my guitar timeright now.
Courtney Hartman (24:11):
That sounds awesome.
That sounds so great.
For the last like month and ahalf, I would go out to the
garden every morning beforetemple daughter was awake
usually or sometimes, you know,if my husband was watching her
for a minute and even 10 minutesof just standing and playing
(24:31):
and being in the presence oflike the sounds of trees and
birds in the morning, it's sogreat.
That's that like feels like itenlivens my day and then I've
touched my guitar that day.
This might always exist for me,but it's like if I go through
days where I haven't played likesome things off, my hands feel
weird and I'm happier if I justget to play a little bit every
(24:52):
day, but it's not like an houror two hours or four.
It's like maybe I can play for10 minutes and that feels like a
win.
If I get more, more than that,that's also great, but right now
that's where it's at.
Jeffrey Pepper Rodgers (25:06):
I know for me personally with
parenthood came this whole newunderstanding of experience, of
just kind of joyful outbreaks ofmusic in the house, you know
beyond, just like, okay, I'mgoing to try to write a song or
I'm going to try to play rightnow.
Outbreaks of music in the house,you know, mm-hmm, yeah, beyond.
(25:27):
Just like, okay, I'm going totry to write a song or I'm going
to try to play right now, butjust sort of like the way kids
just have music flying out ofthem all the time.
Are you experiencing that inyour home?
Courtney Hartman (25:35):
Yes, and Temple has just started like
dancing.
She loves to like dance andgroove.
I don't know where these dancemoves come from, but she's got
like a little clogging move thatshe gets excited about and so
that makes you want to like singa song or play the banjo or
whatever it is, and I thinkthat'll.
I hope that just continues tobecome more of like I don't know
(25:57):
.
I think we're sillier andthat's awesome, but also just
making music happen and turningit on, because you can literally
see it change a mood andsometimes that's so necessary.
Nick Grizzle (26:10):
What is something that maybe comes up pretty
regularly with your students.
Are there things that they cometo you with, or questions, or
maybe things that you see ingeneral, that you find yourself
wanting to point out to them orsuggest to students just time
(26:30):
and time again, time and timeagain.
Courtney Hartman (26:31):
Well, some people were working on
songwriting, so that's specific.
Some people were working onsongwriting and guitar playing,
or singing and guitar playing.
I think, as far as guitarplaying goes, often we end up
talking about one good use ofour bodies, allowing, you know,
(26:56):
using our weight and not ourmuscles, using rather the weight
of our muscles so that we'renot bringing in extra tension.
That's really important for meto.
That's an important thing thatI want to instill in people and
help walk them through.
And the other thing, I think,is really just helping people to
acknowledge and begin toexpress the music that's inside
(27:19):
of them.
Like, that sounds so simple andeven corny, but that's what
it's about, I think.
In the end, if people can feellike they have the tools to do
that, in a way where they're notjust reading a tablature solo
and trying over, you know, for ayear to like precisely play
(27:41):
that one thing, to me thatdoesn't feel as inspiring it
might be to some people, sothat's great.
But the thing that keeps megoing is like continuing to
learn how to express the musicthat's kind of already swirling
(28:02):
in our heads or we're alreadyhappening, and then doing that
with people is a whole differentand beautiful thing.
Nick Grizzle (28:08):
Well, how about for yourself?
What's the best piece of guitaradvice you've ever received?
Courtney Hartman (28:13):
There's a couple.
I have this swirl of thingsthat come to mind.
Early on, a guitarist named UweKruger helped me un-anchor my
wrist and that totally changedmy playing.
I'm showing you in the video,but if I just describe it, if
your wrist is anchored on thebridge, you can see in your
forearm all the muscles engageand so lifting that to where
(28:38):
your hand was in this more of aresting position, like if you
were swinging your arms by yourside, there's all these
beautiful angles that happenthen a really straight angle
from your shoulder down to yourelbow, a nice straight line from
your elbow to your wrist, andso un-kinking my wrist in that
way was a big thing as like ayou know, 12 or 13 year old.
(29:00):
So that was a big piece, Ithink, in my mind early on.
Also like watching guitaristsplay.
There's a in my mind BrianSutton just playing at Rocky
Grass, which was a big festivalthat I loved a lot, or
(29:23):
influential festival, I mean thewhole body nature of playing
and being in rhythm.
And Julian Lodge, similar thing.
Like we don't need it's notjust our arms but our whole
bodies, and so what are yourfeet doing?
How are your ribs opening, andthat kind of attentiveness and
(29:43):
also like engagement and it justlike it feels better when
you're allowing your body andyour core to move and groove and
be a part of it.
To move and groove and be apart of it and I think it's also
you produce a better sound andpotentially, can engage in a
different way with an audience.
I got to record with BillFrizzell for the album I did
(30:05):
called Ready Reckoner and Ithink, sitting across from him
and watching him, just the carewith which he gave to every
single note, like there was norushing through anything,
obviously because it's BillFrizzell, but just so much care
(30:27):
and presence with every note andit made me feel held and I
think it yeah, it was.
It definitely influenced me asI, as I continue to grow and
learn and life changes andshifts happen, um, I'm excited
to continue to learn and and togrow and create, in whatever
(30:50):
season it is, and that and it'lllook different.
It might not always be in theform of albums, it might not
always be in the form of playingshows for seasons, but it's
still something I care about alot.
Nick Grizzle (31:06):
So, changing gears a bit, I wanted to ask you
about your actual instruments,your guitars.
I see you're a big fan of thebourgeois and the smart archtop
that you have Drew you to thoseoriginally, and what keeps you
coming back to those, becauseyou seem very passionate about
those?
I know people who play guitartend to love their instruments
(31:29):
right, there's a reason theyhave them but I feel like you're
even more passionate aboutthese particular ones for some
reason that's great.
Courtney Hartman (31:40):
Um, let's see so with Dana Bourgeois I I used
to, like my dad so graciouslywould take me to NAMM, which is
like the big convention in um,california I don't know.
He got had a friend who wasable to get tickets and I loved
it.
You know it's like it isoverstimulation central, but I
(32:03):
just loved getting to go playall the instruments and that.
And IBMA, like the conventionarea, I just like loved getting
to go play.
So Dana would have a booth atboth of those and was so kind
and I didn't have like a real, Ihad a, I had a Taylor.
Those are real guitars.
(32:23):
Um, it was one with a lot ofinlay which I was always like a
little embarrassed about.
My dad liked buying instrumentson eBay but uh, I knew Brian
Sutton played a bourgeois for awhile and mostly I just like
liked the instruments andcallings.
You know I like to go into allthe booths, that's what I like
(32:43):
doing.
And then Dana helped me outwhen I was in need of an
instrument.
My guitar got crushed and hejust loaned me one and since
that time time we've had more ofa kind of a working
relationship where I've playedthings that he was working on
and wanted to try out, and he'sbuilt things for me that, like I
(33:06):
had a pilgrimage guitar that hebuilt.
That's one of my favoriteinstruments tiny little, he
calls it the piccolo, and I justsaid I was going to walk the
Camino and that's like a thatwas 500 miles and I wanted to
take a guitar.
So he built the mostlightweight thing and durable
thing he could and it's sospecial and I've written so much
(33:30):
music on it and recorded somuch with it.
It's just like it's a totallyspecial instrument to me anyhow.
So that's bourgeois.
And then Lawrence Smart he builtthe archtop that I play, which
I love, and he's this a reallykind, wonderful person in Idaho,
(33:52):
I guess you, I really value theartistry of these builders and
the fact that like it's a livingrelationship, like there's
something so magical about oldinstruments and if I have the
money someday maybe I'll have anold instrument that I love.
(34:13):
But that's just like not beenmy zone, but I have had these
really great relationships withcurrent builders and I think
that's just something I value alot.
So, yeah, played Lawrence's.
We were at a camp together inWyoming and then I didn't ever
(34:35):
give it back to him.
So I think I want to buy thisand have this as my own.
And then, more recently, thefolks over at Pre-War, matt and
Wes.
I have a guitar modeled after aJ45 that they built and I got
that from them about a year ago.
After J45 that they built and Igot that from them about a year
(35:00):
ago.
Totally love it.
It's been so fun to play andagain like just getting to know
them and they're just like twoof the kindest people ever and
they are so passionate and sogood at what they do.
It's yeah, that's a yeah,that's a real gift.
Nick Grizzle (35:16):
What would be your , like you know, dream vintage
guitar.
Courtney Hartman (35:21):
Oh, I mean, I think like an old, like Martin
Dreadnought, partly because it'sjust ingrained in me that
that's the guitar right, and notall of them are really special,
but the ones that are there,there's nothing like it so the
(35:44):
arch top, though, is it's notnot your typical bluegrass
guitar, uh, so what?
Jeffrey Pepper Rodgers (35:50):
what is the what is the arch top
specifically do for you, or whyare you drawn to that?
Courtney Hartman (35:57):
I think initially I liked it because it
wasn't a bluegrass guitar itfelt good to sing with, and most
of the time now I play itthrough an amp, which is great.
I love that.
It responds really well tobeing tuned down and usually
I'll have it down a half step ora whole step and that for me
(36:19):
provides such a nice thing tosing over, especially if I'm
playing solo, or a lot of timesI'll play with just duo, with a
drummer, and so I can fill upsome of that bottom space with
that guitar in a way that Ican't with an acoustic or a
dreadnought.
I have it handy.
Nick Grizzle (36:52):
I don't have it plugged in, but I can certainly
play a second.
Courtney Hartman (36:58):
It also has this nice a bit of a more
rounded high end that I like andright now it's tuned down a
(37:26):
half step so that gives a senseof like it can be really honky,
which I don't utilize all thatoften or always love, but
there's a richness, I think.
Jeffrey Pepper Rodgers (37:38):
Just to circle back, one other question
about guitars, the little guitarthat you took traveling.
Is that a high-tuned guitar oris it a standard pitch?
Courtney Hartman (37:51):
That one I often keep tuned down a little
bit as well, um, sometimes ahalf step, or with um this
artist, s Carey, that I've, Iplay with him pretty often
there's a couple songs whereit's nice to have that down a
whole step, um, and it gets thisreal like kind of thummy, just
(38:18):
like deep, rich, kind of as ifyou were playing a left hand
muted piano line of like thatkind of sound.
Yeah, so that's possible.
And then that guitar went outon tour with Nickel Creek for a
minute in an emergency situation.
That guitar went out on tourwith Nickel Creek for a minute
(38:39):
in an emergency situation wherethey needed an instrument and
Sarah had it, I think withNashville Tuning.
So that was a high strung uphigh.
So, yes, both I guess.
Nick Grizzle (38:52):
It must be pretty lightweight.
Courtney Hartman (38:53):
if you can bring it on a 500-mile walk,
then it was lightweight until Iput a pickup in it, but it still
is very lightweight.
I mean, they did an incrediblejob.
Yeah, I'm so grateful for thatinstrument.
Nick Grizzle (39:10):
Is that something they make usually, or was that
something you said?
Here's what's in my head.
Can you make this?
Courtney Hartman (39:18):
yeah, exactly, and I didn't even.
I called dana, just being like,okay, here's a stupid idea.
I think I'm gonna do this walkand I want to take a guitar.
I asked him, thinking he mightrecommend, like you know, um,
the taylor, little tiny one orwhich I can't remember what
that's called pretty greatinstrument for the size and
(39:40):
price point.
But he was just like, well,could I build you something?
And so, of course, yeah, yeah,uh, yeah, duh.
And then that what I didn'tnecessarily expect was how much
I've used it in the studio, justbecause of how unique its sound
is.
Nick Grizzle (39:59):
Have you been recording in the studio any new
materials lately?
Courtney Hartman (40:03):
Yeah, I have.
I have just finished two weeksof tracking for a new record.
Jeffrey Pepper Rodgers (40:08):
So what kind of direction is your latest
music going in?
Courtney Hartman (40:14):
I don't even totally know the answer to that.
I think there's an acousticelement to this album.
I think that just came from memissing that a bit.
And this one, whereas Glade wasabout, I mean, I recorded most
(40:35):
of that alone, had some friendssend parts in, but a lot of it
was just alone at the computerfor months and I missed playing
music with people so much, andso that was important for me,
for this one was to be inrelationship with people
(40:58):
musically and also just likeenergy-wise, so that's a big
part of it.
Jeffrey Pepper Rodgers (41:03):
Are you talking about a rhythm section?
Drums, bass, whatnot?
Courtney Hartman (41:09):
Yeah, and there'll be some other more
acoustic elements.
But really, just like all ofthese people are really good at
what they do and we get in aroom together and that's a
moment that we rarely get tohave.
Getting to record with peopleis like such a special thing and
such a privilege.
And then recording with anengineer who's really good at
(41:31):
what they do, you know, it'sjust like.
That's an amazing experiencethat sometimes I take for
granted.
Stephanie Campos (41:44):
The Acoustic Guitar Podcast is produced by
the team at Acoustic GuitarMagazine.
This show is directed andedited by Joey Lesterman.
Tanya Gonzalez is our producer.
Executive producers are LizzieLesterman.
Tanya gonzalez is our producer.
Executive producers are lizzielesterman and me, stephanie
campos.
Our theme music was composed byadam perlmutter and performed
for this episode by jeffreypepper rogers.
(42:05):
If you'd like to support thepodcast, we are on patreon at
patreoncom slash acoustic guitarplus.
As a supporter, you'll haveaccess to bonus episodes, guitar
lessons, song transcriptionsand more, and if you, as a
supporter, you'll have access tobonus episodes, guitar lessons,
song transcriptions and more,and if you're already a patron.
Thank you so much for yoursupport.
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