September 27, 2023 • 37 mins
While both our guests are lauded for their electric guitar chops, this episode is all about playing unplugged. Join Eric Johnson and Gretchen Menn for a wide-ranging conversation exploring ego, joy, musical growth, and how to get good tone. (Hint: it's about a lot more than gear!)
Thanks to ToneWoodAmp for sponsoring this episode. Learn more about their magnetically attached, game-changing multi-effects device for acoustic guitars at tonewoodamp.com — get reverb, delay, and more, no amp required!
Additional resources:
- Check out Eric Johnson's website.
- Read this interview with Eric Johnson, which was the cover story of the February 2017 issue of Acoustic Guitar magazine.
- Check out Gretchen Menn's website.
- Order a copy of The Way Music Works and Reading Between The Lines: The Acoustic Guitar Guide to Musical Literacy, both by Gretchen Menn.
Support the show:
The Acoustic Guitar Podcast theme music is composed by Adam Perlmutter and performed for this episode by Jeffrey Pepper Rodgers.
This episode is hosted by Nick Grizzle, produced by Tanya Gonzalez, and directed and edited by Joey Lusterman. Executive producers are Lyzy Lusterman and Stephanie Campos Dal Broi.
The Acoustic Guitar Podcast is produced by the team at Acoustic Guitar magazine, including:
- Publisher: Lyzy Lusterman
- Editorial Director: Adam Perlmutter
- Managing Editor: Kevin Owens
- Creative Director: Joey Lusterman
- Digital Content Director: Stephanie Campos Dal Broi
- Digital Content Manager: Nick Grizzle
- Marketing Services Manager: Tanya Gonzalez
Special thanks to our listeners who support the show on Patreon.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Eric Johnson (00:00):
But trying to find that beautiful tone that
inspires you to play, it's notabout thinking about the gear,
it's just about finding ways tofree yourself.
Nick Grizzle (00:48):
Welcome to the Acoustic Guitar Podcast.
I'm your host, Nick Grizzle,and in this episode I'm excited
to share a wide-rangingconversation with Eric Johnson
and Gretchen Menn.
We talk about ego, joy, how toget good tone and, of course,
guitars and gear.
Before we get into it, I'd liketo take a moment to thank our
(01:09):
sponsor for this episode.
Thanks to Tonewood Amp forsponsoring this episode.
Tonewood Amp is a game-changingmulti-effects device that
attaches to any acoustic guitar.
Get reverb, delay and more; noamp required.
Here are some user reviews: This thing is fantastic. (01:22):
undefined
I cannot put my classicalguitar down since I received my
Tonewood Amp, playing my guitarwithout the unit on it now
sounds stale.
Turn on the unit and wow, itsounds like heaven on earth.
Learn more at Tonewood Amp.
com.
While both my guests are laudedfor their electric guitar chops
, this episode is all aboutplaying acoustic.
(01:45):
Gretchen Menn is a guitarist andcomposer based in the San
Francisco Bay Area.
She writes, records, andperforms original music and is
the author of the popularinstructional book the Way Music
Works.
She's also the guitarist in LedZeppelin tribute band,
Zepperella.
Eric Johnson is among thepantheon of Texas electric
guitar masters and might be bestknown for his Grammy
(02:07):
award-winning rock instrumental"Cliffs of Dover".
He's also an accomplishedacoustic player with a signature
Martin and several acclaimedacoustic-centric albums under
his belt, and something that Itook away from our conversation
is that we're always growing.
No matter what achievements orsuccess may come our way,
there's always more to learn,and we kick things off here with
(02:29):
Eric Johnson sharing the guitartechnique.
He's currently learning andpracticing.
Eric Johnson (02:33):
When I write songs, I try to incorporate new
ways of playing, you know, andI'm trying to just get better at
the finger picking thing.
I really wanted to use fingerpicks, especially a thumb pick,
but I just can't.
I've spent too long with a flatpick, you know.
So then I either have to playwith a flat pick to do that the
(02:57):
finger picking thing, or youknow, or just use my fingers.
I'd love to play with a thumbpick, but I don't know if it'll
ever happen.
It just feels so foreign to methat I've been working on just
keeping a rhythm.
You know [demonstrates onguitar] , just learning to you
know that kind of thing.
(03:18):
You know, which is all sorts ofstuff you can do and just keep
it kind of going.
And it was hard for me to learnhow to do that and I'm still
just kind of a beginner at itcompared to a lot of people.
You know so, but it's fun, it'sfun to you know, work on.
Nick Grizzle (03:39):
Wow, I love that.
That, that keeping it humbleattitude, that's cool.
Eric Johnson (03:44):
Well, you know it's and it's interesting.
You know you can live in yourown bubble and and entertain
yourself, you know.
But I don't know there's apoint where that just kind of
exhausts itself.
You know, and and you know, allof a sudden you, you look
behind the curtains, you knowlike, you know like, and just
(04:04):
see, wow, you know it's, it's,it's kind of an illusion to kind
of live in that, you know.
And so at some point I think,if you're lucky, I guess that
bubble gets burst.
You know, it might not be themost comfortable thing in the
world, but it's very medicinaland therapeutic.
Gretchen Menn (04:20):
How did you come to that, how does one have those
revelations?
Eric Johnson (04:23):
I think you just go out and you hear a lot of
players, you know, you hearplayers that you can name
players constantly that do anystyle of any selection of a
style of music that you can have.
You know, I don't want to saybetter than you, but that's,
that's putting it back in thatbox.
But maybe just more realized orwhatever, I don't know.
(04:47):
But I think and it's just thatway with any players, like you
mentioned Django, you knowyou're just like wow, I can do
some of his licks, but I'llnever be able to, in a liquid
way, just alphabetically, speakthat way.
(05:08):
And that was what he didStephane Grappelli Grappelli.
They play in the hot club ofFrance.
It was just like liquidalphabet, right, and there are
certain styles that I'm learningto be able to speak that way,
but some of it's where you getlittle snippets of it, whereas
some people that's just theiralphabet.
(05:29):
And I think realizing that andlistening to Doyle and his
finger picking stuff is just offthe hook and I'm thinking well,
you know, I mean just kind ofwalk away and be humble about it
.
Well, you know, I got my ownthing, I play electric and I
write songs and do my thing andyou don't want to tear yourself
(05:50):
down, you want to supportyourself and be a friend of
yourself.
But I think also you just gowow, there's room for everybody
and you're never going to havethe corner on the market like
that.
And I just, I don't know, itwas a process I guess I'm taking
a long time to answer yourquestion, but it's just a
(06:11):
process of realization.
You know, for me it was.
I'm still working on it andit's interesting because I think
it's an antithesis to music.
You know, we start off playingwhen we're kids and it's just
pure joy and it's pure innocentexploration.
And then we start, maybe we getdecent enough to where we play
(06:35):
in a band or we get gigs or weget whatever you know, more gigs
and tours and record labels,and we start building this
encasement of what we think weare.
And then we get alluded intothat you know, that thing that's
(06:56):
not really that real, you know.
And then we have to kind of, Ithink at some point we break it
down and realize, wow, it's justabout the joy of music, you
know, and the other stuff iskind of an antithesis if we buy
into it, you know.
Gretchen Menn (07:08):
That really makes sense, I think.
Sometimes I feel like there'ssomething that's really
creatively unhealthy abouthaving ourselves reflected back
to us too much.
Eric Johnson (07:18):
Yeah, that's really well said.
Gretchen Menn (07:20):
It's this invitation for constant ego,
both in the positive andnegative, and you know people
giving voice to your greatestinsecurities and then people
telling you things that feedsomething you know that none of
us want to have out of control.
Eric Johnson (07:36):
Absolutely yeah, and I'm still trying to figure
that out.
How do you go on stage and justcompletely play or record or
whatever, or just sit in, justplay from that heart space that
doesn't allow all that otherinfluence?
Yeah.
Gretchen Menn (07:56):
Have you figured that out?
Eric Johnson (08:00):
No, I haven't.
And even if you're at therealization that you know I
don't have all the answers, or Idon't want clemency or a hall
pass in life, because I know afew licks on guitar, you know
that's.
You know you get to the pointwhere you go, wow, you know, I
don't want to do that anymore.
You know what I mean.
It's like you just, it's kindof you kind of have to.
(08:23):
Then you don't.
I don't know if you have thatmany, your choices get more
limited to return to that, justthat plan for fun.
But it's a struggle, I think,because and it's it's, it's kind
of natural, you know you walkon stage.
Oh, is everything going right?
Are people enjoying this?
Is the sound just right?
Am I playing good?
You know there's all thisluggage that you accrue after
(08:48):
you do it long enough, you know,and I think they're really, and
there are people that can justlike, lose themselves, you know,
and or forget about themselvesand just be a conduit, you know,
in a more, in the highestpercentage of way possible, you
know.
Gretchen Menn (09:08):
Do you think that the constant pressing yourself
- which I know you do and itshows in all of your music, that
you're always kind of pushinginto new territory - do you
think that flies in the face ofkind of just being able to rest
in and enjoy what comes mostnaturally?
Eric Johnson (09:27):
Yeah, that's a really good question.
Yeah, I do, especially if it'snot really balanced, and I think
I have times where it's not asbalanced as it should be.
Just pushing, pushing, pushingand it kind of it creates a
portion of yourself that you'rea little too hard on yourself
and then you can just be kind ofnot as good a friend to
yourself as you should always be.
(09:50):
So, yeah, I don't, that'sreally.
It's almost like a intersectionin the road that I don't know.
I don't know what the answer is.
You know you got to pushyourself because you know your
job is to go out there andreally make people you know, wow
, okay, this is, you know, thisis good, you know.
But you kind of you're kind oflike you're kind of talking
(10:13):
about an interesting question of, ultimately, how do you
negotiate that intersection?
That's really, really I don'tknow, I'm not sure.
Gretchen Menn (10:28):
I don't want to believe, I don't think they must
be mutually exclusive, becauseit's like I can't imagine being
like resting on laurels of anysort.
I mean, and clearly you don't.
All my heroes are constantlygrowing and evolving and yet
it's like man, how do you?
You know, when we see peoplewho have picked, you know, a
(10:51):
lane and really owned it in abeautiful and pure way, I do
sense that there's this comfortand this joy that I find that I
get little glimmerings of butthat I wish I had more of too.
Eric Johnson (11:07):
Yeah, I guess it's just, I think, maybe not
getting too cerebrally obsessedwith music, you know, and just
keeping it, keeping it on a, youknow, a heart level, you know
(11:29):
emotional level, you know, or atleast respecting that and
trying to inspire that.
I can't tell you how up it is.
For me right now it's likebecause you want it to be
important but you realize it'snot that important, you know if
(11:50):
that makes sense.
So you want to really turnpeople on and raise their energy
or make them feel good or put asmile on their face, but you
want to leave it at that.
You know you don't want it.
Certain muscles you don't wantto strengthen, you know certain
(12:12):
ones, you do.
Gretchen Menn (12:16):
I mean, I think you really said something that I
think is beautiful and at leastthis is my thought currently on
the matter is that you wantsomething to be important and
yet you also recognize it's nottoo important.
But on one hand, I can say yourmusic has been transformational
(12:37):
to me, like you're why I pickedup a guitar.
My life changed because, like Isaw, at least what I felt in
the moment, was that joy, youknow, in hearing you play.
That made me think how does oneget like that?
Like, is he the happiest personin the world like playing like
that?
Or is he so happy because hecan play like that?
(12:58):
Whatever it is, I think I needto take guitar lessons, and so
while on one hand it's like wedon't want to get all we know
that that maybe ego doesn't helpcreativity On the other hand,
what I think is so beautifulabout music is you don't really
harm anybody, like the worst.
So on one hand it can have greatmeaning for somebody else and
(13:21):
change their lives for thebetter, but you're really not
going to hurt anybody either.
It's like people listening tomusic mostly voluntarily, you
know, and you can always walkout of that grocery store or
that gym or something or put inearplugs if it really bums you
out.
But if you think of the ratioof potential positives to
potential negatives, I don'treally know anything else that
(13:44):
has such a potentially highvalue for minimal risk.
Eric Johnson (13:50):
Oh wow, yeah, Beautiful, yeah, that's true.
Nick Grizzle (13:58):
I mean, does this have any effect on composition
for you when you're writingmusic?
Do you think about these bigkind of questions?
Gretchen Menn (14:08):
Yeah, I guess I always do.
I try.
There's a tremendous pressure Iput on myself anytime I'm
writing to not repeat myself andnot to fall into some sort of
formula which I enjoy.
It's part of like we're talkingabout the process of constantly
pushing.
It means that I'm very slow toput out albums.
In fact, I was looking kind ofmore carefully at Eric, at your
(14:31):
discography of looking at all ofthe timelines of stuff.
I remember back in the daythere was all of this like Ah
Via Musicom Yizakam was so hugeand when is Venus Isle coming
out?
Then I looked and I'm like it'sonly six years.
Are you kidding me?
That's nothing Really.
I'm like, oh my gosh.
Eric Johnson (14:51):
Yeah, that's a.
.
.
That was quite a crazy deal.
Gretchen Menn (14:55):
But it's not that long.
As a fan, you're like, hey, canI have another album, like
yesterday?
And then you realize, as anartist, you're like you know, if
you want to make good music, ifyou want to make something that
you feel measures up to yourown standards and is worth
people giving their mostvaluable asset, which is time,
(15:16):
if they're going to give youtheir time and attention, you
don't want to take that lightly.
There's a huge responsibilitythere, and so when I'm composing
, I absolutely think about that.
And now it seems like havingbeen, you know, the fan that was
eagerly wanting Venus Isle tocome out, and now I'm like, oh,
six years is nothing for analbum that good.
Eric Johnson (15:35):
It's interesting.
There's certain balance there,I guess of you know you can get
so like oh you know you'relooking at the microscope and
molecules and take 20 years, youknow.
Or you can kind of like keepsome kind of beacon on where
you're achieving what you want,but not going too far.
(15:58):
And that was quite a lesson.
I mean, I recorded the wholerecord twice and it's like a
whole thing.
But there are some songs onthere that I've.
I actually listened to itrecently and liked some of the
stuff on it.
It was cool.
Gretchen Menn (16:16):
Can I ask you about one of the pieces that I
was listening to and reallyinterested in is I don't know if
I'm saying it right, is itSerenidad?
Eric Johnson (16:25):
Oh wow, Serenidad.
Yeah, that was just an improvactually.
Gretchen Menn (16:29):
Is it really?
Eric Johnson (16:31):
Yeah.
Gretchen Menn (16:32):
I've listened to so much of your stuff and I was
kind of shocked because when Iwas listening to it I'm like,
wow, like I feel like you'rejust maybe it's that constantly
pushing into new territory.
If somebody played that for me,it's like this new aspect of
your creative voice.
Eric Johnson (16:52):
Well, I think that's because there wasn't any
time for me to get in the way.
I just really just figured Iwanted a little touch of a nylon
string guitar on that record.
So I just we just pressedrecord and I just kind of I
think I went through like two orthree times and maybe I had a
couple of little vague ideas butjust kind of went for a for
(17:13):
just just making it up.
And then I think at some pointI played the songs, maybe twice
as long as it is, and so Iedited out a couple of sections
where I didn't like them.
Gretchen Menn (17:25):
It's just beautiful.
I mean, I have heard so much ofyour steel string stuff, but
the nylon string was absolutelygorgeous.
You don't use nails, right?
Nick Grizzle (17:36):
How do you get the most out of a piece on acoustic
guitar?
Eric Johnson (17:40):
You just when you think the song is working, when
it completes the story thatyou're trying to tell, and you
just kind of have to make a Iguess, a judgment call, a
creative judgment call along ifit's doing that or not, just
kind of listen to it.
(18:01):
Don't just entertain it in yourhead, but kind of listen to it
and see if it's reallyaccomplishing.
You know, getting to that endpoint where you feel it's
telling the story that you wantto tell.
And sometimes that can be likean incredibly simple little
thing and, notably in some ofthose cases, you can mess it up
(18:25):
by trying to make it toocomplicated.
So you kind of have to just,you know, listen to the story
you're telling and just whatworks, what's too much, what's
not enough, you know.
Gretchen Menn (18:37):
Okay, on a purely kind of technical level, the
tone has to be there.
There's nothing to hide behind.
So really drawing from theinstrument the sounds you
imagine in your head, I think isreally important, and I think
that's why touching base a lotwith your heroes helps you not
(18:58):
start kind of apologizing orhaving bad tone become just sort
of this like wall paper thatyou just start to accept in your
playing, but really listeningcarefully and making sure that
each note is exactly how youwant it to sound.
And sometimes that meansworking in tiny sections, very
(19:19):
slowly and being solutionoriented, you know, recognizing
like why, why does this notesound so crappy if I play it on
the G string?
And then possibly having tocome up with a creative new
fingering to you know, so thatthe melody line maybe your after
isn't getting broken bysuddenly this huge tonal
(19:40):
discrepancy that happens betweenstrings like violin, cello,
viola.
Players are very aware andanybody who's writing for them
are very aware about the tonaldifferences of notes produced on
different strings.
And as guitar players, I thinkanybody who's played long enough
is inherently aware of it, butI don't hear people talk about
it quite so much.
(20:00):
So sometimes coming up withcreative fingerings.
And then maybe the last thingI'd say is, in this day, where
it sometimes is so efficient towork to a grid in Pro Tools or
Logic or whatever, tempodynamics is something that I
think a lot of people who havetheir roots more in rock today
(20:22):
you know, not like the LedZeppelin style, like let's just
play to Bonham and we go.
But metronomic is not a goodthing, I think, especially if
you're talking about somethingas intimate as something you're
playing on a solo instrument andso being able to have enough
(20:45):
facility with whatever you'replaying to really make sure that
you're able to have thatobjectivity in the moment to
recognize not just, oh, this iswhat I'm able to do, but like no
, right here, it wants thislittle push forward, or right
here, it wants this littleeasing up, and so being able to
have you know the technicalstuff down enough so that you
(21:05):
can have that objectivity and bea listener at the same time as
a player.
Nick Grizzle (21:11):
So what do you think goes into getting good
tone?
Is it a gear thing?
Is it like the instrumentyou're playing?
Or maybe how you're playing,like your technique?
Gretchen Menn (21:19):
You know there are many different components of
tone.
I believe that tone reallycomes from yourself and your
ears, and your gear and yourinstrument just determine how
easy it is to get the sounds youimagine in your head.
Eric is going to sound likeEric.
If you hand him something wayless cool than all of his old
(21:39):
strats and stuff, he's stillgoing to sound like Eric.
Jeff Beck is still going tosound like Jeff Beck.
Tommy Emmanuel is still goingto sound like Tommy Emmanuel.
I think it's a question of howhard do you have to fight for it
?
So to your point.
Certain aspects of you knowplaying acoustic guitar on stage
.
There are a lot of things that,at least for me.
(22:01):
I don't travel with a sound guyor anything or kind of out of
my control.
I'll often do things.
It's not a fun answer but it'sa practical one.
If I'm playing like LedZeppelin stuff and all the
different tunings, I'll decidewhich guitar sounds best and
which of Jimmy Page's tuningsand then which one you know
which one I should play, basedon kind of a practical like how
(22:24):
quick can I change over betweenthe songs?
So every, because I don't havea guitar tech, so everybody's
not waiting there watching metune.
I know that Eric will give youa cooler answer.
Mine's very practical.
Eric Johnson (22:37):
I think that's totally right.
It really is your intention andyour fingering, how you, how
the resolution and how you fretthe string, as well as pluck the
string or pick the string.
And then also it's reallyinteresting what Gretchen's
saying about the differentstrings, because that's huge and
yeah, in classical players youdon't hear a lot of people talk
(22:59):
about that on guitar but it ishuge.
And when you're creating astoryboard of the orchestrated
part, it really makes adifference because one of them
will be louder than the other orthicker than the other, and
that's a big thing.
You know.
Really, it's the resolution andhow you and fretting the note
(23:23):
makes a difference, how you fretit with your fingers.
So I think it's a process, atrial and error, where you learn
the sweet spot of the fretting,the sweet spot of the picking
or plucking, but behind that allis really the intention and
then the strings you choose toplay it on.
Nick Grizzle (23:41):
So I was.
I mean here, I was expectinghere's what kind of amp you use,
here's the pickups you need andit's just how you play.
The instrument is the mostinfluential piece of getting
tone.
Eric Johnson (23:54):
I think really it is, you know, and because people
do, like Gretchen would say,and they sound like themselves,
no matter what they, what they,what they use.
You know, it might might be alittle bit more realized on
certain gear, but it's, it'sreally comes from that initial
performed intention.
Nick Grizzle (24:16):
Well, I did want to get into gear a little bit.
Eric, you have a signaturemodel.
Is it a Martin that you havesignature model of?
Yeah, and you have a D45 thatI've read is very special to you
.
Let's I want to talk about boththose guitars, if we can.
What makes that D45 so specialto you?
Eric Johnson (24:44):
Oh well, when I was like 28 years old, I got
almost all my guitars stolen andI had a solo acoustic guitar
opening for somebody at theopera house in Austin coming up
in a few weeks.
But my dad bought me thatguitar because I got a lot of my
(25:08):
guitars stolen and one of whichgot stolen was a Martin D-41.
Actually I had a D-41 that wasnot there and then I had my own
D-41.
I had a friend of mine D-41,that got stolen, so I had to
give him my D-41 because his gotstolen just to make up for that
(25:32):
.
But then I didn't have anacoustic guitar and he bought me
the guitar, and so it's verysentimental to me.
Nick Grizzle (25:39):
And how about your signature guitar?
When did that come about andwhat went into it and what makes
it your signature?
Eric Johnson (25:48):
Well, Dick Boak at Martin I don't know if he works
there anymore, but he helpeddesign that guitar for me and
that's a crazy thing, designinga acoustic guitar.
I think I probably could havedone a better job, just maybe
now or maybe just trying somedifferent things other people
would suggest, because I think Ikind of went for what I thought
(26:10):
would work.
I mean, it's a cool guitar butI just didn't really know a lot
about acoustic guitars when Idecided I was thinking more
about looks and stuff and Ireally didn't know.
Nick Grizzle (26:22):
What would you do differently now?
Eric Johnson (26:26):
Oh, I think I'd do an OM style, maybe with a
cutaway, but maybe try differentwoods.
Yeah, just kind of make surethat it had the right sound
through all the notes.
Nick Grizzle (26:43):
Gretchen, what acoustics do you find yourself
reaching for the most when youreach out this one?
Is there one that just kind offinds its way into your hands
more often than not?
Gretchen Menn (26:55):
Yeah, um, it kind of depends on what kind of
acoustic playing I'm doing.
I'm very lucky to have KennyHill's personal classical guitar
that just kind kind of leant meI know, oh, I was nuts.
I mean, I I had a Kenny Hillguitar.
Um, that was, I always said,way more guitar than I am player
(27:19):
.
But I knew it was kind of alocal guy and I was playing a
gig actually was Zepperella andand there was this guy who
showed up at the merch table andhe was like, do you play
classical guitar?
You know, your left hand lookslike you do.
And I was like, oh yeah, I havethis amazing instrument.
I should play more.
You know my typical like, oh, Iwish I had more time, you know,
not that good, you know.
And I mean he's like, oh, I'm abuilder from around here and
(27:42):
I'm like, wait, we're in Felton,California.
I'm like, what's your name?
And he's like Kenny Hill and Ipractically like jumped over the
merch table.
I'm like, oh, my God, you know.
And anyway, so he's a composer.
We've become friends.
I used his guitar on my secondalbum and then after that he, he
, he liked the album and he waslike, take it, you know, he'd
(28:02):
build himself a second personalguitar.
And he's like, take this firstone.
See what you do with it.
It's got true temperament frets, eric.
Have you ever played truetemperament frets?
Eric Johnson (28:11):
No, I haven't.
Does that mean they're sideways?
Gretchen Menn (28:15):
They're not fanned.
They've got these little likeum corrections.
Nick Grizzle (28:19):
They look like squiggles.
Gretchen Menn (28:22):
Yes, I don't understand the physics of it.
Um, I have all sorts ofquestions about, like you know,
the, the little bit that Iunderstand about temperament.
I'm like I'm not sure why itworks, but it does sound
beautiful and if Kenny Hill's abig fan Eric: oh, wow, I'd love
to try one of those.
Gretchen (28:39):
Oh, next time we're in the same town you have to play
this guitar.
It's nylon string.
It is so gloriously beautiful.
Oh, I, I'm.
Every time I see him I'm likedo you need your guitar back?
and so far.
So far he hasn't asked for itback, yeah, um, so that's one
that's just incredibly special.
My time with it I I willcherish, but I don't deserve to
(29:02):
have it.
Um, I have a a Stephen StrahmEROS, which he's an also an
incredible builder.
That was the one that I, uh, Idid for the minor swing, um,
very non-traditional gypsy jazzrendition, but I learned it and
I wanted to do it.
And then recently I've beendoing a lot of stuff with with
(29:22):
Breed love guitars, which I lovebecause, for you know, Kenny
Hill, Stephen Strahm, these areall instruments I couldn't
afford if I were not like aprofessional musician working,
you know, in collaboration withcompanies, and I always feel
like there's something kind ofirresponsible if I, if you're
doing any teaching, um, to nothave some affiliation with a
(29:45):
company that makes qualityproducts at a reachable price.
You know you don't want to belike oh, what guitar do you
recommend?
Oh, I recommend this $9,000instrument.
It's like who can afford that?
I mean not saying they're notworth every penny of it.
The stuff that goes into thesehigh end guitars is huge, but
Breed love makes really greatstuff.
It's sustainably harvestedwoods, um, they're a nice
(30:08):
combination of kind oftraditional looking but also
with like a lot of beautifulcolors, and they're just the
nicest people.
So I've been really enjoyingthat and I'm not afraid to take
them on stage with me.
I think I'd be really nervousto bring, you know, to subject
anything super nice, or Ishouldn't say super nice,
everything.
Super nice, super one of a kindto the rigors of the road.
Nick Grizzle (30:29):
So w hat guitars do you bring on tour, Gretchen?
Do you bring the Breed love ontour with you?
Gretchen Menn (30:36):
That's what I've been using on stage,
Eric Johnson (30:38):
Yes, I use Maton guitars on stage.
Nick Grizzle (30:42):
Oh cool yeah, Like Tommy Emmanuel yeah.
Eric Johnson (30:45):
I mean, I think that first, from playing his and
talking him about it, they,they have a great pickup system
with a built in mic and it'sreally it's tough getting a good
acoustic sound line, you know.
So I think the Matons have apretty, pretty great pickup
system.
Nick Grizzle (31:06):
I mean, we talked a little bit about what projects
you're working on right now,what's in your world creatively
yeah.
Eric Johnson (31:12):
I just got off tour a couple of weeks ago.
We just finished a seven weektour and, um yeah, I just uh
kind of I got a couple more gigsto do and doing an
instructional video, and then Ihave a couple of more
masterclass things to do inAugust and then we go out for
the second leg of this thing inum late August through September
(31:34):
.
Nick Grizzle (31:35):
Gretchen.
How about you?
What do you got cooking rightnow?
Gretchen Menn (31:38):
It's funny.
Somebody asked me this theother day and I felt so
scattered that I'm like I don'tknow.
Um, I'm doing lots of shows nowwith uh, with Zepparella, so
that's like a Led Zeppelintribute thing.
That's super fun and greateducation and I'm playing with
my original trio.
(31:59):
I'm also I was just tellingEric, I'm in school right now.
I'm getting a degree in um,media composition.
So my undergraduate degree isin, you know, music more general
.
Um, this will be a master's inmedia composition.
So like composing for, likefilms, tv games.
Nick Grizzle (32:17):
Wow, have you done any?
Any scores that we should checkout?
Gretchen Menn (32:22):
I've done assignments at this point.
Um, but you know, uh, but it'sfun.
It's actually um it it forced.
Having specifications andhaving a deadline forces you to
work with the skills that youhave at your immediate disposal,
so you don't get the time tosit there and beat yourself up
and be like, oh, you should workmore on.
(32:43):
You know my counterpoint skillsor you know my harmonies are
boring.
How does Ravel do it?
You know, um, uh is you have towork within what you can do.
Right then, and it can bereally rewarding.
I mean, just like Eric wassaying with us, serenidad is is
when you are improvising or whenyou're working on this tight
(33:03):
timeline.
You don't get to get in yourown way the same amount.
So it's kind of fun.
And then I have somethingcoming up next year that's
really exciting.
I don't know if you know StevenMackey.
He's a an incredible composer.
He's an electric guitaristwho's been incorporating
electric guitar into acompositional context since,
like the nineties.
(33:24):
He teaches at Princeton.
He's done all sorts of coolstuff with, like Kronos Quartet
Quartet and really cool things.
Um, he's writing a guitarconcerto and I guess I'm going
to be performing it in Salt LakeCity in almost exactly a year,
so I have a year to freak outabout this.
Nick Grizzle (33:44):
Very cool stuff.
Oh man, we're coming to the end.
Uh, thank you again.
Thank you so much for your timeand I wanted to leave it open
if either of you had questionsfor each other.
Eric Johnson (33:55):
I want to hear this stuff that Gretchen's
working on.
I want to hear the concerto andstuff that sounds wonderful.
That's going to be great.
Was that with orchestraGretchen?
Gretchen Menn (34:07):
Yeah, I guess it's going to start out.
He's composing it now.
It's going to start onclassical guitar.
He already sent me somesketches for it and then it's
going to move to electric guitar.
But he likes to do lots ofwacky stuff with prepared guitar
and slide.
He had me send every video.
He's like show me everytechnique you can do.
I'm like, oh boy, okay, I'm notscared.
Eric Johnson (34:31):
That's going to be great.
I can't wait to hear that Wow.
Gretchen Menn (34:36):
I have a question for you, Eric, too.
I'm curious.
I've read so many interviews ofyou and you get opportunities
to talk a lot about your gearand everything like that.
What do you love talking aboutmusic?
What do you wish you had moreopportunities to put out there?
Eric Johnson (35:06):
Oh, just trying to find that beautiful tone that
inspires you to play that.
It's not really.
It's not about thinking aboutthe gear.
It's just about finding ways tofree yourself and see what
(35:26):
possibilities come from that -being more receptive than
proactive, sometimes.
Just discussing what are thethings that make that happen,
talking about all the littlepieces that maybe inspire you to
get more in that vortex.
Gretchen Menn (35:51):
Has there ever been any great moments of
breakthrough or great advicethat has really helped open
something up for you?
Eric Johnson (35:58):
Yeah, I think a lot of people will say hey, you
know, some of my favorite stuffyou do is the improv stuff that
you don't have time to thinkabout or put too many
fingerprints on it.
I've always kind of keep in theback of my head what I toured
(36:20):
with BB King and he told me.
He said be yourself, find thatunique light that you shine,
that nobody else does, becauseyou always can find players that
play great and there'sthousands, and now with YouTube,
I mean there's no end to it andto kind of find that unique
(36:43):
pulse that you have that reallyexemplifies you.
That's unique.
Gretchen Menn (36:54):
When do you feel musically most kind of in
connection with that part of you, do you think?
Eric Johnson (37:00):
When I'm not thinking about it too much.
Gretchen Menn (37:02):
I think.
Eric Johnson (37:02):
I think when I'm not thinking.
I'm not interested.
I'm using the mind to not think.
There's the conundrum rightthere, you know.
Right, yeah, not thinking aboutit, I think, and just letting
it happen.
Nick Grizzle (37:48):
Thank you
But trying to find that beautiful tone that
inspires you to play, it's notabout thinking about the gear,
it's just about finding ways tofree yourself.
Nick Grizzle (00:48):
Welcome to the Acoustic Guitar Podcast.
I'm your host, Nick Grizzle,and in this episode I'm excited
to share a wide-rangingconversation with Eric Johnson
and Gretchen Menn.
We talk about ego, joy, how toget good tone and, of course,
guitars and gear.
Before we get into it, I'd liketo take a moment to thank our
(01:09):
sponsor for this episode.
Thanks to Tonewood Amp forsponsoring this episode.
Tonewood Amp is a game-changingmulti-effects device that
attaches to any acoustic guitar.
Get reverb, delay and more; noamp required.
Here are some user reviews: This thing is fantastic. (01:22):
undefined
I cannot put my classicalguitar down since I received my
Tonewood Amp, playing my guitarwithout the unit on it now
sounds stale.
Turn on the unit and wow, itsounds like heaven on earth.
Learn more at Tonewood Amp.
com.
While both my guests are laudedfor their electric guitar chops
, this episode is all aboutplaying acoustic.
(01:45):
Gretchen Menn is a guitarist andcomposer based in the San
Francisco Bay Area.
She writes, records, andperforms original music and is
the author of the popularinstructional book the Way Music
Works.
She's also the guitarist in LedZeppelin tribute band,
Zepperella.
Eric Johnson is among thepantheon of Texas electric
guitar masters and might be bestknown for his Grammy
(02:07):
award-winning rock instrumental"Cliffs of Dover".
He's also an accomplishedacoustic player with a signature
Martin and several acclaimedacoustic-centric albums under
his belt, and something that Itook away from our conversation
is that we're always growing.
No matter what achievements orsuccess may come our way,
there's always more to learn,and we kick things off here with
(02:29):
Eric Johnson sharing the guitartechnique.
He's currently learning andpracticing.
Eric Johnson (02:33):
When I write songs, I try to incorporate new
ways of playing, you know, andI'm trying to just get better at
the finger picking thing.
I really wanted to use fingerpicks, especially a thumb pick,
but I just can't.
I've spent too long with a flatpick, you know.
So then I either have to playwith a flat pick to do that the
(02:57):
finger picking thing, or youknow, or just use my fingers.
I'd love to play with a thumbpick, but I don't know if it'll
ever happen.
It just feels so foreign to methat I've been working on just
keeping a rhythm.
You know [demonstrates onguitar] , just learning to you
know that kind of thing.
(03:18):
You know, which is all sorts ofstuff you can do and just keep
it kind of going.
And it was hard for me to learnhow to do that and I'm still
just kind of a beginner at itcompared to a lot of people.
You know so, but it's fun, it'sfun to you know, work on.
Nick Grizzle (03:39):
Wow, I love that.
That, that keeping it humbleattitude, that's cool.
Eric Johnson (03:44):
Well, you know it's and it's interesting.
You know you can live in yourown bubble and and entertain
yourself, you know.
But I don't know there's apoint where that just kind of
exhausts itself.
You know, and and you know, allof a sudden you, you look
behind the curtains, you knowlike, you know like, and just
(04:04):
see, wow, you know it's, it's,it's kind of an illusion to kind
of live in that, you know.
And so at some point I think,if you're lucky, I guess that
bubble gets burst.
You know, it might not be themost comfortable thing in the
world, but it's very medicinaland therapeutic.
Gretchen Menn (04:20):
How did you come to that, how does one have those
revelations?
Eric Johnson (04:23):
I think you just go out and you hear a lot of
players, you know, you hearplayers that you can name
players constantly that do anystyle of any selection of a
style of music that you can have.
You know, I don't want to saybetter than you, but that's,
that's putting it back in thatbox.
But maybe just more realized orwhatever, I don't know.
(04:47):
But I think and it's just thatway with any players, like you
mentioned Django, you knowyou're just like wow, I can do
some of his licks, but I'llnever be able to, in a liquid
way, just alphabetically, speakthat way.
(05:08):
And that was what he didStephane Grappelli Grappelli.
They play in the hot club ofFrance.
It was just like liquidalphabet, right, and there are
certain styles that I'm learningto be able to speak that way,
but some of it's where you getlittle snippets of it, whereas
some people that's just theiralphabet.
(05:29):
And I think realizing that andlistening to Doyle and his
finger picking stuff is just offthe hook and I'm thinking well,
you know, I mean just kind ofwalk away and be humble about it
.
Well, you know, I got my ownthing, I play electric and I
write songs and do my thing andyou don't want to tear yourself
(05:50):
down, you want to supportyourself and be a friend of
yourself.
But I think also you just gowow, there's room for everybody
and you're never going to havethe corner on the market like
that.
And I just, I don't know, itwas a process I guess I'm taking
a long time to answer yourquestion, but it's just a
(06:11):
process of realization.
You know, for me it was.
I'm still working on it andit's interesting because I think
it's an antithesis to music.
You know, we start off playingwhen we're kids and it's just
pure joy and it's pure innocentexploration.
And then we start, maybe we getdecent enough to where we play
(06:35):
in a band or we get gigs or weget whatever you know, more gigs
and tours and record labels,and we start building this
encasement of what we think weare.
And then we get alluded intothat you know, that thing that's
(06:56):
not really that real, you know.
And then we have to kind of, Ithink at some point we break it
down and realize, wow, it's justabout the joy of music, you
know, and the other stuff iskind of an antithesis if we buy
into it, you know.
Gretchen Menn (07:08):
That really makes sense, I think.
Sometimes I feel like there'ssomething that's really
creatively unhealthy abouthaving ourselves reflected back
to us too much.
Eric Johnson (07:18):
Yeah, that's really well said.
Gretchen Menn (07:20):
It's this invitation for constant ego,
both in the positive andnegative, and you know people
giving voice to your greatestinsecurities and then people
telling you things that feedsomething you know that none of
us want to have out of control.
Eric Johnson (07:36):
Absolutely yeah, and I'm still trying to figure
that out.
How do you go on stage and justcompletely play or record or
whatever, or just sit in, justplay from that heart space that
doesn't allow all that otherinfluence?
Yeah.
Gretchen Menn (07:56):
Have you figured that out?
Eric Johnson (08:00):
No, I haven't.
And even if you're at therealization that you know I
don't have all the answers, or Idon't want clemency or a hall
pass in life, because I know afew licks on guitar, you know
that's.
You know you get to the pointwhere you go, wow, you know, I
don't want to do that anymore.
You know what I mean.
It's like you just, it's kindof you kind of have to.
(08:23):
Then you don't.
I don't know if you have thatmany, your choices get more
limited to return to that, justthat plan for fun.
But it's a struggle, I think,because and it's it's, it's kind
of natural, you know you walkon stage.
Oh, is everything going right?
Are people enjoying this?
Is the sound just right?
Am I playing good?
You know there's all thisluggage that you accrue after
(08:48):
you do it long enough, you know,and I think they're really, and
there are people that can justlike, lose themselves, you know,
and or forget about themselvesand just be a conduit, you know,
in a more, in the highestpercentage of way possible, you
know.
Gretchen Menn (09:08):
Do you think that the constant pressing yourself
- which I know you do and itshows in all of your music, that
you're always kind of pushinginto new territory - do you
think that flies in the face ofkind of just being able to rest
in and enjoy what comes mostnaturally?
Eric Johnson (09:27):
Yeah, that's a really good question.
Yeah, I do, especially if it'snot really balanced, and I think
I have times where it's not asbalanced as it should be.
Just pushing, pushing, pushingand it kind of it creates a
portion of yourself that you'rea little too hard on yourself
and then you can just be kind ofnot as good a friend to
yourself as you should always be.
(09:50):
So, yeah, I don't, that'sreally.
It's almost like a intersectionin the road that I don't know.
I don't know what the answer is.
You know you got to pushyourself because you know your
job is to go out there andreally make people you know, wow
, okay, this is, you know, thisis good, you know.
But you kind of you're kind oflike you're kind of talking
(10:13):
about an interesting question of, ultimately, how do you
negotiate that intersection?
That's really, really I don'tknow, I'm not sure.
Gretchen Menn (10:28):
I don't want to believe, I don't think they must
be mutually exclusive, becauseit's like I can't imagine being
like resting on laurels of anysort.
I mean, and clearly you don't.
All my heroes are constantlygrowing and evolving and yet
it's like man, how do you?
You know, when we see peoplewho have picked, you know, a
(10:51):
lane and really owned it in abeautiful and pure way, I do
sense that there's this comfortand this joy that I find that I
get little glimmerings of butthat I wish I had more of too.
Eric Johnson (11:07):
Yeah, I guess it's just, I think, maybe not
getting too cerebrally obsessedwith music, you know, and just
keeping it, keeping it on a, youknow, a heart level, you know
(11:29):
emotional level, you know, or atleast respecting that and
trying to inspire that.
I can't tell you how up it is.
For me right now it's likebecause you want it to be
important but you realize it'snot that important, you know if
(11:50):
that makes sense.
So you want to really turnpeople on and raise their energy
or make them feel good or put asmile on their face, but you
want to leave it at that.
You know you don't want it.
Certain muscles you don't wantto strengthen, you know certain
(12:12):
ones, you do.
Gretchen Menn (12:16):
I mean, I think you really said something that I
think is beautiful and at leastthis is my thought currently on
the matter is that you wantsomething to be important and
yet you also recognize it's nottoo important.
But on one hand, I can say yourmusic has been transformational
(12:37):
to me, like you're why I pickedup a guitar.
My life changed because, like Isaw, at least what I felt in
the moment, was that joy, youknow, in hearing you play.
That made me think how does oneget like that?
Like, is he the happiest personin the world like playing like
that?
Or is he so happy because hecan play like that?
(12:58):
Whatever it is, I think I needto take guitar lessons, and so
while on one hand it's like wedon't want to get all we know
that that maybe ego doesn't helpcreativity On the other hand,
what I think is so beautifulabout music is you don't really
harm anybody, like the worst.
So on one hand it can have greatmeaning for somebody else and
(13:21):
change their lives for thebetter, but you're really not
going to hurt anybody either.
It's like people listening tomusic mostly voluntarily, you
know, and you can always walkout of that grocery store or
that gym or something or put inearplugs if it really bums you
out.
But if you think of the ratioof potential positives to
potential negatives, I don'treally know anything else that
(13:44):
has such a potentially highvalue for minimal risk.
Eric Johnson (13:50):
Oh wow, yeah, Beautiful, yeah, that's true.
Nick Grizzle (13:58):
I mean, does this have any effect on composition
for you when you're writingmusic?
Do you think about these bigkind of questions?
Gretchen Menn (14:08):
Yeah, I guess I always do.
I try.
There's a tremendous pressure Iput on myself anytime I'm
writing to not repeat myself andnot to fall into some sort of
formula which I enjoy.
It's part of like we're talkingabout the process of constantly
pushing.
It means that I'm very slow toput out albums.
In fact, I was looking kind ofmore carefully at Eric, at your
(14:31):
discography of looking at all ofthe timelines of stuff.
I remember back in the daythere was all of this like Ah
Via Musicom Yizakam was so hugeand when is Venus Isle coming
out?
Then I looked and I'm like it'sonly six years.
Are you kidding me?
That's nothing Really.
I'm like, oh my gosh.
Eric Johnson (14:51):
Yeah, that's a.
.
.
That was quite a crazy deal.
Gretchen Menn (14:55):
But it's not that long.
As a fan, you're like, hey, canI have another album, like
yesterday?
And then you realize, as anartist, you're like you know, if
you want to make good music, ifyou want to make something that
you feel measures up to yourown standards and is worth
people giving their mostvaluable asset, which is time,
(15:16):
if they're going to give youtheir time and attention, you
don't want to take that lightly.
There's a huge responsibilitythere, and so when I'm composing
, I absolutely think about that.
And now it seems like havingbeen, you know, the fan that was
eagerly wanting Venus Isle tocome out, and now I'm like, oh,
six years is nothing for analbum that good.
Eric Johnson (15:35):
It's interesting.
There's certain balance there,I guess of you know you can get
so like oh you know you'relooking at the microscope and
molecules and take 20 years, youknow.
Or you can kind of like keepsome kind of beacon on where
you're achieving what you want,but not going too far.
(15:58):
And that was quite a lesson.
I mean, I recorded the wholerecord twice and it's like a
whole thing.
But there are some songs onthere that I've.
I actually listened to itrecently and liked some of the
stuff on it.
It was cool.
Gretchen Menn (16:16):
Can I ask you about one of the pieces that I
was listening to and reallyinterested in is I don't know if
I'm saying it right, is itSerenidad?
Eric Johnson (16:25):
Oh wow, Serenidad.
Yeah, that was just an improvactually.
Gretchen Menn (16:29):
Is it really?
Eric Johnson (16:31):
Yeah.
Gretchen Menn (16:32):
I've listened to so much of your stuff and I was
kind of shocked because when Iwas listening to it I'm like,
wow, like I feel like you'rejust maybe it's that constantly
pushing into new territory.
If somebody played that for me,it's like this new aspect of
your creative voice.
Eric Johnson (16:52):
Well, I think that's because there wasn't any
time for me to get in the way.
I just really just figured Iwanted a little touch of a nylon
string guitar on that record.
So I just we just pressedrecord and I just kind of I
think I went through like two orthree times and maybe I had a
couple of little vague ideas butjust kind of went for a for
(17:13):
just just making it up.
And then I think at some pointI played the songs, maybe twice
as long as it is, and so Iedited out a couple of sections
where I didn't like them.
Gretchen Menn (17:25):
It's just beautiful.
I mean, I have heard so much ofyour steel string stuff, but
the nylon string was absolutelygorgeous.
You don't use nails, right?
Nick Grizzle (17:36):
How do you get the most out of a piece on acoustic
guitar?
Eric Johnson (17:40):
You just when you think the song is working, when
it completes the story thatyou're trying to tell, and you
just kind of have to make a Iguess, a judgment call, a
creative judgment call along ifit's doing that or not, just
kind of listen to it.
(18:01):
Don't just entertain it in yourhead, but kind of listen to it
and see if it's reallyaccomplishing.
You know, getting to that endpoint where you feel it's
telling the story that you wantto tell.
And sometimes that can be likean incredibly simple little
thing and, notably in some ofthose cases, you can mess it up
(18:25):
by trying to make it toocomplicated.
So you kind of have to just,you know, listen to the story
you're telling and just whatworks, what's too much, what's
not enough, you know.
Gretchen Menn (18:37):
Okay, on a purely kind of technical level, the
tone has to be there.
There's nothing to hide behind.
So really drawing from theinstrument the sounds you
imagine in your head, I think isreally important, and I think
that's why touching base a lotwith your heroes helps you not
(18:58):
start kind of apologizing orhaving bad tone become just sort
of this like wall paper thatyou just start to accept in your
playing, but really listeningcarefully and making sure that
each note is exactly how youwant it to sound.
And sometimes that meansworking in tiny sections, very
(19:19):
slowly and being solutionoriented, you know, recognizing
like why, why does this notesound so crappy if I play it on
the G string?
And then possibly having tocome up with a creative new
fingering to you know, so thatthe melody line maybe your after
isn't getting broken bysuddenly this huge tonal
(19:40):
discrepancy that happens betweenstrings like violin, cello,
viola.
Players are very aware andanybody who's writing for them
are very aware about the tonaldifferences of notes produced on
different strings.
And as guitar players, I thinkanybody who's played long enough
is inherently aware of it, butI don't hear people talk about
it quite so much.
(20:00):
So sometimes coming up withcreative fingerings.
And then maybe the last thingI'd say is, in this day, where
it sometimes is so efficient towork to a grid in Pro Tools or
Logic or whatever, tempodynamics is something that I
think a lot of people who havetheir roots more in rock today
(20:22):
you know, not like the LedZeppelin style, like let's just
play to Bonham and we go.
But metronomic is not a goodthing, I think, especially if
you're talking about somethingas intimate as something you're
playing on a solo instrument andso being able to have enough
(20:45):
facility with whatever you'replaying to really make sure that
you're able to have thatobjectivity in the moment to
recognize not just, oh, this iswhat I'm able to do, but like no
, right here, it wants thislittle push forward, or right
here, it wants this littleeasing up, and so being able to
have you know the technicalstuff down enough so that you
(21:05):
can have that objectivity and bea listener at the same time as
a player.
Nick Grizzle (21:11):
So what do you think goes into getting good
tone?
Is it a gear thing?
Is it like the instrumentyou're playing?
Or maybe how you're playing,like your technique?
Gretchen Menn (21:19):
You know there are many different components of
tone.
I believe that tone reallycomes from yourself and your
ears, and your gear and yourinstrument just determine how
easy it is to get the sounds youimagine in your head.
Eric is going to sound likeEric.
If you hand him something wayless cool than all of his old
(21:39):
strats and stuff, he's stillgoing to sound like Eric.
Jeff Beck is still going tosound like Jeff Beck.
Tommy Emmanuel is still goingto sound like Tommy Emmanuel.
I think it's a question of howhard do you have to fight for it
?
So to your point.
Certain aspects of you knowplaying acoustic guitar on stage
.
There are a lot of things that,at least for me.
(22:01):
I don't travel with a sound guyor anything or kind of out of
my control.
I'll often do things.
It's not a fun answer but it'sa practical one.
If I'm playing like LedZeppelin stuff and all the
different tunings, I'll decidewhich guitar sounds best and
which of Jimmy Page's tuningsand then which one you know
which one I should play, basedon kind of a practical like how
(22:24):
quick can I change over betweenthe songs?
So every, because I don't havea guitar tech, so everybody's
not waiting there watching metune.
I know that Eric will give youa cooler answer.
Mine's very practical.
Eric Johnson (22:37):
I think that's totally right.
It really is your intention andyour fingering, how you, how
the resolution and how you fretthe string, as well as pluck the
string or pick the string.
And then also it's reallyinteresting what Gretchen's
saying about the differentstrings, because that's huge and
yeah, in classical players youdon't hear a lot of people talk
(22:59):
about that on guitar but it ishuge.
And when you're creating astoryboard of the orchestrated
part, it really makes adifference because one of them
will be louder than the other orthicker than the other, and
that's a big thing.
You know.
Really, it's the resolution andhow you and fretting the note
(23:23):
makes a difference, how you fretit with your fingers.
So I think it's a process, atrial and error, where you learn
the sweet spot of the fretting,the sweet spot of the picking
or plucking, but behind that allis really the intention and
then the strings you choose toplay it on.
Nick Grizzle (23:41):
So I was.
I mean here, I was expectinghere's what kind of amp you use,
here's the pickups you need andit's just how you play.
The instrument is the mostinfluential piece of getting
tone.
Eric Johnson (23:54):
I think really it is, you know, and because people
do, like Gretchen would say,and they sound like themselves,
no matter what they, what they,what they use.
You know, it might might be alittle bit more realized on
certain gear, but it's, it'sreally comes from that initial
performed intention.
Nick Grizzle (24:16):
Well, I did want to get into gear a little bit.
Eric, you have a signaturemodel.
Is it a Martin that you havesignature model of?
Yeah, and you have a D45 thatI've read is very special to you
.
Let's I want to talk about boththose guitars, if we can.
What makes that D45 so specialto you?
Eric Johnson (24:44):
Oh well, when I was like 28 years old, I got
almost all my guitars stolen andI had a solo acoustic guitar
opening for somebody at theopera house in Austin coming up
in a few weeks.
But my dad bought me thatguitar because I got a lot of my
(25:08):
guitars stolen and one of whichgot stolen was a Martin D-41.
Actually I had a D-41 that wasnot there and then I had my own
D-41.
I had a friend of mine D-41,that got stolen, so I had to
give him my D-41 because his gotstolen just to make up for that
(25:32):
.
But then I didn't have anacoustic guitar and he bought me
the guitar, and so it's verysentimental to me.
Nick Grizzle (25:39):
And how about your signature guitar?
When did that come about andwhat went into it and what makes
it your signature?
Eric Johnson (25:48):
Well, Dick Boak at Martin I don't know if he works
there anymore, but he helpeddesign that guitar for me and
that's a crazy thing, designinga acoustic guitar.
I think I probably could havedone a better job, just maybe
now or maybe just trying somedifferent things other people
would suggest, because I think Ikind of went for what I thought
(26:10):
would work.
I mean, it's a cool guitar butI just didn't really know a lot
about acoustic guitars when Idecided I was thinking more
about looks and stuff and Ireally didn't know.
Nick Grizzle (26:22):
What would you do differently now?
Eric Johnson (26:26):
Oh, I think I'd do an OM style, maybe with a
cutaway, but maybe try differentwoods.
Yeah, just kind of make surethat it had the right sound
through all the notes.
Nick Grizzle (26:43):
Gretchen, what acoustics do you find yourself
reaching for the most when youreach out this one?
Is there one that just kind offinds its way into your hands
more often than not?
Gretchen Menn (26:55):
Yeah, um, it kind of depends on what kind of
acoustic playing I'm doing.
I'm very lucky to have KennyHill's personal classical guitar
that just kind kind of leant meI know, oh, I was nuts.
I mean, I I had a Kenny Hillguitar.
Um, that was, I always said,way more guitar than I am player
(27:19):
.
But I knew it was kind of alocal guy and I was playing a
gig actually was Zepperella andand there was this guy who
showed up at the merch table andhe was like, do you play
classical guitar?
You know, your left hand lookslike you do.
And I was like, oh yeah, I havethis amazing instrument.
I should play more.
You know my typical like, oh, Iwish I had more time, you know,
not that good, you know.
And I mean he's like, oh, I'm abuilder from around here and
(27:42):
I'm like, wait, we're in Felton,California.
I'm like, what's your name?
And he's like Kenny Hill and Ipractically like jumped over the
merch table.
I'm like, oh, my God, you know.
And anyway, so he's a composer.
We've become friends.
I used his guitar on my secondalbum and then after that he, he
, he liked the album and he waslike, take it, you know, he'd
(28:02):
build himself a second personalguitar.
And he's like, take this firstone.
See what you do with it.
It's got true temperament frets, eric.
Have you ever played truetemperament frets?
Eric Johnson (28:11):
No, I haven't.
Does that mean they're sideways?
Gretchen Menn (28:15):
They're not fanned.
They've got these little likeum corrections.
Nick Grizzle (28:19):
They look like squiggles.
Gretchen Menn (28:22):
Yes, I don't understand the physics of it.
Um, I have all sorts ofquestions about, like you know,
the, the little bit that Iunderstand about temperament.
I'm like I'm not sure why itworks, but it does sound
beautiful and if Kenny Hill's abig fan Eric: oh, wow, I'd love
to try one of those.
Gretchen (28:39):
Oh, next time we're in the same town you have to play
this guitar.
It's nylon string.
It is so gloriously beautiful.
Oh, I, I'm.
Every time I see him I'm likedo you need your guitar back?
and so far.
So far he hasn't asked for itback, yeah, um, so that's one
that's just incredibly special.
My time with it I I willcherish, but I don't deserve to
(29:02):
have it.
Um, I have a a Stephen StrahmEROS, which he's an also an
incredible builder.
That was the one that I, uh, Idid for the minor swing, um,
very non-traditional gypsy jazzrendition, but I learned it and
I wanted to do it.
And then recently I've beendoing a lot of stuff with with
(29:22):
Breed love guitars, which I lovebecause, for you know, Kenny
Hill, Stephen Strahm, these areall instruments I couldn't
afford if I were not like aprofessional musician working,
you know, in collaboration withcompanies, and I always feel
like there's something kind ofirresponsible if I, if you're
doing any teaching, um, to nothave some affiliation with a
(29:45):
company that makes qualityproducts at a reachable price.
You know you don't want to belike oh, what guitar do you
recommend?
Oh, I recommend this $9,000instrument.
It's like who can afford that?
I mean not saying they're notworth every penny of it.
The stuff that goes into thesehigh end guitars is huge, but
Breed love makes really greatstuff.
It's sustainably harvestedwoods, um, they're a nice
(30:08):
combination of kind oftraditional looking but also
with like a lot of beautifulcolors, and they're just the
nicest people.
So I've been really enjoyingthat and I'm not afraid to take
them on stage with me.
I think I'd be really nervousto bring, you know, to subject
anything super nice, or Ishouldn't say super nice,
everything.
Super nice, super one of a kindto the rigors of the road.
Nick Grizzle (30:29):
So w hat guitars do you bring on tour, Gretchen?
Do you bring the Breed love ontour with you?
Gretchen Menn (30:36):
That's what I've been using on stage,
Eric Johnson (30:38):
Yes, I use Maton guitars on stage.
Nick Grizzle (30:42):
Oh cool yeah, Like Tommy Emmanuel yeah.
Eric Johnson (30:45):
I mean, I think that first, from playing his and
talking him about it, they,they have a great pickup system
with a built in mic and it'sreally it's tough getting a good
acoustic sound line, you know.
So I think the Matons have apretty, pretty great pickup
system.
Nick Grizzle (31:06):
I mean, we talked a little bit about what projects
you're working on right now,what's in your world creatively
yeah.
Eric Johnson (31:12):
I just got off tour a couple of weeks ago.
We just finished a seven weektour and, um yeah, I just uh
kind of I got a couple more gigsto do and doing an
instructional video, and then Ihave a couple of more
masterclass things to do inAugust and then we go out for
the second leg of this thing inum late August through September
(31:34):
.
Nick Grizzle (31:35):
Gretchen.
How about you?
What do you got cooking rightnow?
Gretchen Menn (31:38):
It's funny.
Somebody asked me this theother day and I felt so
scattered that I'm like I don'tknow.
Um, I'm doing lots of shows nowwith uh, with Zepparella, so
that's like a Led Zeppelintribute thing.
That's super fun and greateducation and I'm playing with
my original trio.
(31:59):
I'm also I was just tellingEric, I'm in school right now.
I'm getting a degree in um,media composition.
So my undergraduate degree isin, you know, music more general
.
Um, this will be a master's inmedia composition.
So like composing for, likefilms, tv games.
Nick Grizzle (32:17):
Wow, have you done any?
Any scores that we should checkout?
Gretchen Menn (32:22):
I've done assignments at this point.
Um, but you know, uh, but it'sfun.
It's actually um it it forced.
Having specifications andhaving a deadline forces you to
work with the skills that youhave at your immediate disposal,
so you don't get the time tosit there and beat yourself up
and be like, oh, you should workmore on.
(32:43):
You know my counterpoint skillsor you know my harmonies are
boring.
How does Ravel do it?
You know, um, uh is you have towork within what you can do.
Right then, and it can bereally rewarding.
I mean, just like Eric wassaying with us, serenidad is is
when you are improvising or whenyou're working on this tight
(33:03):
timeline.
You don't get to get in yourown way the same amount.
So it's kind of fun.
And then I have somethingcoming up next year that's
really exciting.
I don't know if you know StevenMackey.
He's a an incredible composer.
He's an electric guitaristwho's been incorporating
electric guitar into acompositional context since,
like the nineties.
(33:24):
He teaches at Princeton.
He's done all sorts of coolstuff with, like Kronos Quartet
Quartet and really cool things.
Um, he's writing a guitarconcerto and I guess I'm going
to be performing it in Salt LakeCity in almost exactly a year,
so I have a year to freak outabout this.
Nick Grizzle (33:44):
Very cool stuff.
Oh man, we're coming to the end.
Uh, thank you again.
Thank you so much for your timeand I wanted to leave it open
if either of you had questionsfor each other.
Eric Johnson (33:55):
I want to hear this stuff that Gretchen's
working on.
I want to hear the concerto andstuff that sounds wonderful.
That's going to be great.
Was that with orchestraGretchen?
Gretchen Menn (34:07):
Yeah, I guess it's going to start out.
He's composing it now.
It's going to start onclassical guitar.
He already sent me somesketches for it and then it's
going to move to electric guitar.
But he likes to do lots ofwacky stuff with prepared guitar
and slide.
He had me send every video.
He's like show me everytechnique you can do.
I'm like, oh boy, okay, I'm notscared.
Eric Johnson (34:31):
That's going to be great.
I can't wait to hear that Wow.
Gretchen Menn (34:36):
I have a question for you, Eric, too.
I'm curious.
I've read so many interviews ofyou and you get opportunities
to talk a lot about your gearand everything like that.
What do you love talking aboutmusic?
What do you wish you had moreopportunities to put out there?
Eric Johnson (35:06):
Oh, just trying to find that beautiful tone that
inspires you to play that.
It's not really.
It's not about thinking aboutthe gear.
It's just about finding ways tofree yourself and see what
(35:26):
possibilities come from that -being more receptive than
proactive, sometimes.
Just discussing what are thethings that make that happen,
talking about all the littlepieces that maybe inspire you to
get more in that vortex.
Gretchen Menn (35:51):
Has there ever been any great moments of
breakthrough or great advicethat has really helped open
something up for you?
Eric Johnson (35:58):
Yeah, I think a lot of people will say hey, you
know, some of my favorite stuffyou do is the improv stuff that
you don't have time to thinkabout or put too many
fingerprints on it.
I've always kind of keep in theback of my head what I toured
(36:20):
with BB King and he told me.
He said be yourself, find thatunique light that you shine,
that nobody else does, becauseyou always can find players that
play great and there'sthousands, and now with YouTube,
I mean there's no end to it andto kind of find that unique
(36:43):
pulse that you have that reallyexemplifies you.
That's unique.
Gretchen Menn (36:54):
When do you feel musically most kind of in
connection with that part of you, do you think?
Eric Johnson (37:00):
When I'm not thinking about it too much.
Gretchen Menn (37:02):
I think.
Eric Johnson (37:02):
I think when I'm not thinking.
I'm not interested.
I'm using the mind to not think.
There's the conundrum rightthere, you know.
Right, yeah, not thinking aboutit, I think, and just letting
it happen.
Nick Grizzle (37:48):
Thank you
Popular Podcasts
Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang
Ding dong! Join your culture consultants, Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang, on an unforgettable journey into the beating heart of CULTURE. Alongside sizzling special guests, they GET INTO the hottest pop-culture moments of the day and the formative cultural experiences that turned them into Culturistas. Produced by the Big Money Players Network and iHeartRadio.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.