December 27, 2023 • 34 mins
From the Newport Folk Festival to art museums in Norway and every open mic, stadium, and radio station in between – if it’s a gig, Pieta Brown, Christopher Paul Stelling, and Sean Rowe are ready for it! This roundtable of well-traveled acoustic guitarists has played tons of shows across the globe – and are here to share insights, stories, laughs, and ideas to get you ready to play out, too.
Additional resources:
- Listen to Part 2, where our guests share gig horror stories and advice for guitarists just starting out.
- Visit Pieta Brown's website and watch this Acoustic Guitar Sessions video for an intimate performance and to learn about her childhood, her family, and her guitars.
- Visit Christopher Paul Stelling's website and read his interview with Ben Harper about songwriting, guitars, and growing up in a famous music store. Watch his latest Sessions video, too.
- Visit Sean Rowe's website and watch his Acoustic Guitar Sessions performance, which features a trifecta of songs including a moving version of the Sade's “By Your Side.”
The Acoustic Guitar Podcast theme music is composed by Adam Perlmutter and performed for this episode by Jeffrey Pepper Rodgers.
This episode is hosted by Nick Grizzle and Gretchen Menn, produced by Tanya Gonzalez, and directed and edited by Joey Lusterman. Executive producers are Lyzy Lusterman and Stephanie Campos Dal Broi.
The Acoustic Guitar Podcast is produced by the team at Acoustic Guitar magazine, including:
- Publisher: Lyzy Lusterman
- Editorial Director: Adam Perlmutter
- Managing Editor: Kevin Owens
- Creative Director: Joey Lusterman
- Digital Content Director: Stephanie Campos Dal Broi
- Digital Content Manager: Nick Grizzle
- Marketing Services Manager: Tanya Gonzalez
Special thanks to our listeners who support the show on Patreon.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Christopher Paul Stelling (00:00):
You know, you've fallen on your face
enough times to know it doesn'treally hurt.
It's just a song and it's justa show, and everybody's there to
have a good time, so give it ashot, right.
Nick Grizzle (00:44):
Hello and welcome to the Acoustic Guitar Podcast.
I'm your host, nick Grizzle,joined for this episode by
co-host Gretchen Menn.
From the Newport Folk Festivalto art museums in Norway and
every open mic stadium andbarnyard in between, if it's a
gig, Pieta Brown, ChristopherPaul Stelling and Sean Rowe are
ready for it.
Pieta Brown pairs gentle rootsfinger picking with poetic
(01:08):
introspection to craft a uniquebrand of folk.
Christopher Paul Stelling is asoulful, road-weary songwriter
with an intense and intricateapproach to finger style.
Sean Rowe is known for hisresonant baritone voice,
inventive guitar style, anddistinctive Americana sound.
This roundtable ofwell-traveled acoustic
guitarists has played tons ofshows across the world and are
(01:31):
here to share insights, stories,and ideas to get you gig ready
too.
The Acoustic Guitar Podcast is alistener-supported show.
Memberships start at just $1and include access to bonus
episodes of this podcast,exclusive guitar workshops and
much more.
Head over to patreoncom slashacousticguitarplus to learn more
(01:53):
.
If you want a preview of whatwe have to offer, we're making
part two of this very episodeavailable to stream free for a
limited time.
And now I'll kick things overto Pieta Brown, who shares her
perspective on crafting asetlist and tools to overcome
anxiety on stage.
Pieta Brown (02:08):
Because I definitely, especially early on,
really really struggled withshyness and nerves and all those
things.
I mean it was really hard forme to even sing into the
microphone.
So who knows why, I starteddoing gigs.
But at some point along the wayI started writing setlists as a
kind of more like a guide thansomething I need to adhere to
(02:29):
really strictly.
But I found it helpful and alsoa way to relax a little bit
more somehow.
Sean Rowe (02:36):
Do you always follow them when you do have a setlist,
or is it just sort of like aguide?
Pieta Brown (02:40):
It's kind of like a guide, although once I started
doing a lot of playing solo moreand then for kind of a pretty
big stretch there I was doing alot of, you know, I went from
playing duo, trio, band and kindof my own shows into doing a
lot of opening for really greatsongwriters you know, playing in
much bigger rooms than I wasused to and so I started playing
(03:03):
solo quite a bit then and atthat point I started writing my
setlist according to my tunings,because I like to use different
tunings but I would often onlyhave one guitar, so I would
write my setlist according tohow the tunings would flow most
easily without having to tune myguitar that often, which is
kind of fun.
Nick Grizzle (03:24):
But you mentioned a point I wanted to follow up on
a little bit of the nerves, thestage-fright aspect of things.
I don't know anybody who hasplayed a first gig and not had
that feeling.
How did you overcome it?
And do you?
I mean, do you still feel it?
Do you still have things you doto overcome it, like on every
gig?
Pieta Brown (03:42):
I mean, I've always been somebody to struggle with
shyness and in strange kind of Idon't know maybe paradoxical
ways or something, Likesongwriters, of course, there's
some kind of openness, right.
Or if you're getting up andsinging your song, there's
obviously some kind of inherentopenness, right, Because some
(04:02):
people can't even do that.
But as far as being in a roomwith people or even sometimes
just doing an interview, right,and it's like a natural shyness
or something.
So I've definitely reallyslowly learned strange little
quirky coping mechanisms Isuppose you would call them.
Sean Rowe (04:21):
I want to hear one of them what do you got?
Pieta Brown (04:23):
I mean there's like .
I mean some of them are likeweird little things that you
carry with you.
You know, you're like, oh yeah,that's the pick that Mark
Knopfler gave me and it's in mypocket or that's the.
You know, that's the four-leafclover my sister gave me and I
have these few little things andthey're kind of like little
sacred little things I carry.
(04:44):
That makes me feel like maybeit's just that feeling connected
to something else.
Yeah, little things like that.
I've got some other secrets, butI remember actually one of the
first gigs I did.
I was just thinking of thisbecause of doing this interview,
but I was supposed to do alittle radio interview and I
(05:05):
thought it was just an interviewand like play a couple songs.
And I showed up and it was forIowa Public Radio and I showed
up and they wanted me to play a16 minute set live on air and I
was completely unprepared forthat, but somehow I did it.
I really still don't know howand I would really never like to
hear that again, but somethingabout doing it and like
(05:30):
Christopher was saying, you know, you realize you're like it's
just a song and it's just amoment and it's going to pass,
and the more relaxed you can get, I feel like the really the
more you can offer in some way,christopher, you were holding
something up.
Nick Grizzle (05:46):
Do you bring things with you like that too?
Christopher Paul Stelling (05:48):
I mean I've got, you know, this
thing.
I've kept in my pocket for gosh15 years, Like you know, like
just anything that can groundyou.
Sometimes it's not just theshow, it's not just about to
perform, I mean, sometimes justtraveling can be completely
disorienting, you know, I mean alot of us, I feel like a lot of
(06:08):
us.
You know, creatives in generaldeal with anxiety and deal with
panic and deal with some ofthese things, which is somehow
how we got into this.
To begin with, maybe some of uswere like running towards our
fears For some reason.
That's, as always, felt likethe right reason, and artists
(06:29):
I've resonated with aren'tnecessarily always comfortable
with the pursuit.
I've been hosting the open micat Eddie's Attic in Decatur
while while I'm home.
One of my best friends is thetypical host.
And the difference between youknow, at first I was like, oh my
(06:50):
, yeah, my career is finally atthe point where I'm the host of
the local open mic.
Pieta Brown (06:58):
Exactly you made it .
Christopher Paul Stelling (07:00):
It's been refreshing.
But you do notice thedifferences in the people, the
different motivations of peopleas they come to it, like the
people that obviously have thestars in their eyes and just
kind of sound like they thinkthey're supposed to sound and do
what they think they'resupposed to do, and then the
people that are genuinelyterrified because they're giving
(07:25):
something hidden, becausethey're giving something of
themselves, something secretthat's completely off topic but
that has to do somehow with thelittle charms.
Musicians have always carriedlittle charms, little
rattlesnake tails, in theirguitars, or mercury dimes or
(07:47):
whatever.
People love their little luckycharms and I think there's
something to be said for that.
Sean Rowe (07:53):
I think grounding is such a great way to put it
because you can also have I dothat as well but sometimes for
me it's in a different way.
Thinking itself is a problem onthe stage.
In a way, if you're logical,thought and analytical mind
(08:13):
becomes very problematic whenyou're trying to get in some
kind of a zone, because you'vealready memorized everything.
Your body knows what to do.
So when your body knows what todo, you don't need that part,
that analytical part of yourbrain, but it wants to hold on
for dear life and it's really inthere.
So at times you are in a fightwith this part of you.
(08:36):
That's really weird because tothe outside world and to the
audience, they have no idea whatyou're going through in the
moment.
But these things can be seenvery real and heavy, and I've
noticed one thing that reallyhelps is that I will focus on
something tactile, likesomething that I'm feeling, like
the feel of the guitar, becauseit doesn't require any
(08:59):
analytical thought.
It's just like the way that thestrings feel or the air or
something else that's in theroom.
You know what I mean, and thatis similar to bringing something
and, like Pieta and Christopher, like that same idea of
grounding is super important,but also like something else
(09:22):
that Chris was saying too islike you know why we come into
this?
And I used to think, like why inthe hell did I pick this kind
of career and lifestyle?
Because like I was a shy kidtoo, really shy, and like I'm
putting myself out thereemotionally in all these ways
that don't seem to match mypersonality.
But I think, when it comes downto a big part of it is like how
(09:44):
we derive, like how we acquirethis love and acceptance.
That's like inherent to allhumans, right?
It's like how we go about thatis different for everybody and
people, creative people you knowthat you know paint or make art
, or you know music or whatnot.
You know a lot of them.
I think that's how they get theacceptance you know, that's how
(10:06):
they fill that place inthemselves and, to a certain
degree, is through performanceand through the connection with
the audience, you know, which isa very real and palpable thing.
So Can I?
Christopher Paul Stelling (10:16):
say one thing about set lists,
because that's where we started.
I loved what Pieta said aboutlike not having one.
I've been doing this thing.
I've noticed the past I don'tknow four or five years, minus
the break.
I kind of know what I'm gonnastart with and I know what I'm
gonna end with.
(10:37):
But aside from that, you know,I've usually I've got like a
binder.
I carry this binder in mygearbox that has like the
majority of my songs printed out, in case, like I'm in a hotel
room or something and I wannalook over a lyric which never
happens but the comfort inknowing they're there is
(10:57):
everything.
I'm jealous that took eightyears to make that binder.
Pieta Brown (11:01):
I'm serious, I'm jealous.
Christopher Paul Stelling (11:02):
But that binder has a little plastic
, clear plastic thing in thefront of it and I've got like 30
songs written on a piece ofpaper stuck in there and I throw
that down by the mic stand andI play the first song and then I
just start free associating.
I talk about my day, I talkabout some weird thought, I have
(11:25):
in the car a quote I heard, Itell a little story and I find
that as I free associate andtalk, I just kinda keep like
looking down and then all of asudden, like there's a spark on
one of the songs and I never,ever do.
I never do this thing anymorewhere I talk about what the
songs are about.
But I find that whatever I'mfree associating about will
(11:48):
somehow lead into the like youwere talking about, it'll lead
into the next song.
And then sometimes I see thelittle smiles on people's faces
when the song that I'm playingnext will reference kind of what
I was just talking about,without having to be so obvious
about it, because, like I don'tknow, nobody really wants to
(12:08):
hear like this next song isabout blah, blah, blah, blah.
For me it helps the songsreinvent themselves night after
night because they're aboutsomething different now.
Every time I'm not talkingabout what was happening in my
life when I wrote it.
I'm talking about somethingthat's happening in my life now
and trying to relate it through.
(12:29):
You know, this weird map thatbecomes the show and it just
keeps things fresh for me and Ilove that's become.
My favorite thing lately is thethings that happen between the
songs and the songs.
I just kind of close my eyesand go off into outer space.
But the free association as I'mcreating that set list
(12:53):
spontaneously is maybe myfavorite thing right now.
Pieta Brown (12:57):
I remember that just made me think, actually
made me think of a couple ofthings.
One is I remember reading aquote somewhere by Tony Bennett
just about you know he's sung alot of the same songs many, many
times and he said I lovesinging every song every time
(13:18):
and that's something I carrywith me too.
Just there's like a you know,just that kind of I don't know
something about just reallystaying open, like to the song
however it's gonna change thatnight or however you're gonna
sing it that night.
So I think about that sometimesand then another this is kind of
(13:38):
the going back to the nervesand the shyness thing, but it's
a really great story that Ithink of often, which is I got
to do some shows with John Prine, quite a few for a little while
.
It's kind of a concentratedtime, but really early on, like
maybe it was before we did anyshows or somehow, I got a
(13:59):
message like he always likes theperson who's opening to sing a
song with him.
He said you choose one and I'llchoose one.
And so I was like, okay, Ichoose Long Monday.
You know I love this songcalled Long Monday by John Prine
, so we did that song, we got todo that song.
(14:21):
But he said, well, I'm going tochoose in spite of ourselves.
And for anybody who doesn't know, Iris has become a family
member and of course she's oneof my favorite singers and so on
.
So you can imagine, like thefirst time I go to sing this in
spite of ourselves with John, Iwas really nervous.
And so we're sitting there, theband's kind of started and John
(14:45):
looks over at me and he cantell that I'm really nervous.
He's done it how many thousandsof times?
Right, he can read me, likeright now, and he gives me this
big smile before he startssinging and he's kind of
standing back by me and then hesays I'm going for it, and then
he steps up to the mic and Ijust I carry that with me, you
(15:07):
know, because it's like, howmany times is he saying that
song?
And it just just that sense ofhumor, I guess, you know.
And lightness is also anotherthing that has really helped me
over the years of just reallyremembering to have fun and go
for it.
You know every time.
Christopher Paul Stelling (15:24):
Can I ask a question to the two or
three of you?
I know we've both, like, openedfor a lot of people in,
possibly, venues that are biggerthan the ones that we would get
to play and or maybe I don'tknow, but that happens sometimes
and it's amazing.
But sometimes it's like you gota tight 30 and you've been
(15:45):
given this great job and youwant to keep the job and you
don't want to make anybody upsetand that's a hard thing to nail
the 30.
You know what I mean.
All of a sudden, you've got twominutes left and you're like do
I do?
Do I do?
Do I go?
What do I do, you know?
And so that's a very different.
That's a very different gig.
Definitely you want to hit yourmark and also you want to start
(16:09):
strong and you want to buildand you want to end on a good
note and you want to, you know,really compliment the people
that brought you out.
Sean Rowe (16:17):
It's a trip.
I know exactly what you'resaying.
I totally resonate with thetrying to build a set, like
sometimes.
It's sometimes more of achallenge when you have less
songs, you know, because you dohave to think about that.
Yeah, 30 minutes, and yeah, Ithink about that.
There is a part that feelseasier and that most of the
(16:37):
audience is there to see theheadlining act, so they're not
expecting anything from you, sowhich gives you a certain amount
of freedom.
You know there's a certainamount of excitement of like ah,
maybe you know if, like,they've never heard me before,
you know what I mean.
So surprising people in a goodway can be kind of cool,
exciting, you know.
But also there's also thiselement that is a little bit
(17:00):
anxiety-latent and that's beingthe opener means that you're not
going to get necessarily thesame kind of sound treatment
that the headliner is going toget, you know, or the same
amount of time on the stage toget really comfortable with the
sound.
And sometimes you're rushing tojust get out there and they
even cut your set shorterbecause the you know, the time
(17:21):
commitment thing has changedsomehow.
So you have to be, like,totally on your game and ready
and ready to go, you know.
So that can have its own set ofanxious problems, you know.
Pieta Brown (17:32):
I actually really have gotten a lot from doing
that over the years.
But something about it reallyalso just I don't know if you do
it enough I feel like it alsogives you a certain kind of
freedom.
Like Sean was saying, there's afreedom in it and
experimentation or something.
Once you get kind ofcomfortable enough or free
(17:53):
enough to really experiment inthose opening situations, I feel
like as a performer orespecially somebody who's just
starting to do gigs, I feel likeit's actually a really great
experiment because in some waysyou have this inner pressure,
but like the pressure, externalpressure is like in some ways
it's not as much or something.
(18:15):
And then also, just I think ithelps you kind of streamline
your tone, which you know that'sone of my favorite things in
the world is tone.
So for me it's I like openingfor that reason of just like how
great of a tone can I get withall these limitations right?
Like, and that's why the gearbecomes like these tiny little
(18:36):
things, like you know justlittle, whatever little pedal
you might bring or whatever yourdirect box is, or these things
that you know you can count on,no matter who the sound person
is or I don't know.
It's kind of experimenting withlimitations.
I found it really helpful overthe years, just as a performer,
I think.
Christopher Paul Stelling (18:56):
I found that coming out of that,
it was like explosive.
All of a sudden you're back toyour.
You know you go out on the roadopening for somebody for a
couple months and then all of asudden you have your own gig and
it's like oh my.
God, it's.
Yeah, they're both.
I mean, it's it tightened up,my it tightened everything up
for me.
There's a before.
(19:16):
There's definitely a before andafter with those kind of gigs.
It's a real blessing, isn't it?
Pieta Brown (19:23):
Yeah, I feel like especially, yeah, I think, when
you're, especially when you'refirst getting going, I mean, if
you can, if you can relax andwork past the shyness or, you
know, trying out your new songsand all that there is, there's
something really strengtheningand that kind of free
experimentation, but in a kindof I mean, really, let's face it
(19:43):
, most of the audiences that arethere to hear songs are pretty,
pretty forgiving and prettyaccepting, even if they don't,
you know, even if they don'tgive you a standing ovation when
you're opening or somethingLike, if you're, if you open
yourselves to the people thatare there to see whoever they're
there to see, like there'ssomething really fun in that
(20:07):
process, I think.
Gretchen Menn (20:09):
What are your biggest thoughts on recording
yourself and, you know, eitherlearning from it or does that
promote a type of toxic selfconsciousness?
What do you guys think aboutthat, and do you do it Like
recording your performances andwatching them later?
Sean Rowe (20:25):
Oh, I think there's a certain amount of bliss by not
remembering things correctly youknow might be beneficial.
Nick Grizzle (20:35):
I know in the past .
Sean Rowe (20:36):
There's been a few times where I've I've seen a
performance back and you knowyou're watching it back on an
iPhone.
You know You're gonna miss alot like especially.
I think that's why a lot of usI think I'm not alone with a lot
of musicians that don't likepeople that to take iPhone
(20:57):
footage while we're playing,because it's not only
distracting but it's also likethe best thing you could
possibly receive is the momentright now.
You know what I mean.
The moment right now is thebest it's gonna get, you know
mean.
So why do you want to focus onwhat's on the screen and then
watch it later, which youprobably won't even watch again?
You know I mean.
So I think there's there's aninherent problem at like looking
(21:21):
at the past In this kind of wayand like critiquing and all
that because it's never gonna beas good as it was in the moment
.
Pieta Brown (21:29):
You know so at the same time I will say I mean,
I've worked with a lot ofartists that they're again that
maybe have people close to themDocumenting lots of things just
kind of regularly, and then theytake pieces from that like
every once in a while when areally particularly Resonant
(21:49):
performance happens or something, and then, oh yeah, great
Listen, we got this documented.
We just happened to record thelast 10 nights, so now you have
these beautiful performancesthat got caught.
I mean, that's kind of inspiredme lately.
It's not something that it haskind of sparked an interest in
that like.
To me it seems like eitheryou're documenting all the time
(22:13):
or maybe not at all or something, but that Maybe, if you're
documenting all the time, thatit allows To catch some of that,
you know, like those reallygreat moments.
Sean Rowe (22:22):
That's a good point.
And you know, from like a fansperspective or for like just a
music, you know, aficionado,it's like you, you love those in
between moments.
You know, you love those likeImpromptu.
You know performances that getcaptured that weren't supposed
to be recorded, or something youknow for for the people that
(22:44):
are doing it, they might notnecessarily think, ah man, I
don't, that's not really thebest version of this that I want
to put out there, but it's likeas a fan or as somebody
listening, that might be likethe coolest thing you've ever
heard, you know, from them.
So yeah, because it works bothways on that, I mean, if you're
doing sports and You're, youknow, wanting to correct a
certain Technique, you know it'sreally good to look at like
(23:08):
footage of yourself doing.
You see what you're doing wrong.
In the same way of aperformance, you could watch and
be like, oh man, I just spent,like you know, 10 minutes
telling a joke and you're likethree minutes actually playing.
You know, I mean, so maybe Ishouldn't do that next time.
Christopher Paul Stelling (23:22):
I feel like we've lived through
the age of this session, youknow, like the video session
when you're on tour.
We've all done a lot of theselive sessions which kind of the
session, kind of the videosession thing Kind of brings the
intimacy of of like a, of likea recording studio take To the
benefit of being able to see theperformer play live.
(23:44):
Like we would probably allapproach a song in a different
way In a recording environmentthan we would on a stage, but
the video thing kind of Capturedboth of those things and I
think for a lot of us likehelped our careers in a way.
There was something cool aboutdoing them and, like you know,
watching a second of them andbeing like, oh, that sounds good
(24:06):
, that looks good, but I wouldnever watch the whole thing ever
.
Know about you guys.
But sometimes in the studio Iget into these little like
Horrible cycles where I'll likeplay the intro like again and
again and again and be like, no,it wasn't right, no, it wasn't
right.
Like all the sudden, all thesudden the tempo.
The next morning You're likethat's way too fast or that's
way too slow, like I have thistheory that like it's not a
(24:28):
theory, it's more of a joke, butlike Recording is like
taxidermy, like songs are these?
This song a song?
Is this beautiful deer runningthrough the forest?
And then to record it is tokind of Kill it and stuff it and
sometimes you get a beautifullikeness Right and sometimes the
taxidermist is no good and it'skind of got a messed up face.
Pieta Brown (24:51):
It's really beautifully said actually.
Christopher Paul Stellin (24:54):
You're trying to capture that likeness
.
And the thing about playing itlive that's thrilling is you
can't get in that feedback loopwhere you're like, no, it's
wrong, no, this is wrong.
No, it's like you start thesong on stage, you're gonna
finish it.
Whether you flub that littlenote or you mess up your little
voice thing that you wanted todo or not, like you're gonna get
(25:17):
to the end of the song andthat's that's where the freedom
comes from.
And sometimes we find like weall love Dylan right, like
Sometimes I've I'm having thisEternal battle right now where I
have to remind myself that Onsome of the recordings I love,
my favorite things are themistakes.
Why is everybody fixing everylittle mistake?
(25:38):
Now?
Because they can, and why didthey not do it then?
Because they couldn't.
That moment where it all startsto fall apart and it all comes
back together, that's where themagic is.
And I try to remind myself ofthat when I get in a in a
negative loop about everythinghas to be perfect in the studio.
If you can live with it, youcan leave it.
(26:00):
I'm just trying to learn to livewith it a little bit more.
Sean Rowe (26:02):
There's a certain component to the studio which is
like you are still playing livebecause you, the audience is in
your head, it's a projectedthing, like you know that this
could be, this could be thething that is on tape, you know,
I mean, or that's Sounds arcade, say that but it's like this
(26:28):
could be the thing that isforever, you know, I mean, and
it is what.
So you, sometimes I feel likein my headphones when I'm doing
a take is like in real time, Iam hearing in real time what is
actually going to be forever.
Right now it's kind of freaky,like you, you, you kind of have
these different ways of likeputting that out of your head
Because it's just too weird, youknow.
But also, if you think about it, it's like I was Thought about
(26:51):
this for a long time thatthere's so many parallels with
film and Theater compared tolive and recording with music,
you know like, because liketheater is like live, if on the
stage, you know, in a lot ofways, and then movies are like
recording in a lot of ways.
We even use the same names, likeyou know producer and director.
You know they kind of sharesome features of you know music
(27:16):
To film, so I can relate to alot of things that actors say.
You know that share those twomediums is really interesting.
But like what you're saying,chris, about yeah, we, when you
are on stage and you're doing alive thing, there is no pressure
that this, it's different everytime and it's supposed to be
different every time, so there'sno thinking about that.
This is a set thing and that's.
That is part of the beauty ofit.
Nick Grizzle (27:38):
So what do you do when you're playing live?
What do you do when stuff goesoff the rails?
Pieta Brown (27:43):
I come back to that as something I said earlier,
kind of in a different variation.
But as I've gone along, I feellike the more you are able to
just really trust the audiencein the moment, the it's, it's
just all really one big thing,you know.
And when you feel that kind of,if you can find it and it's,
(28:04):
it's hard to articulate what thefeeling is, but you know it
when you feel it.
But if you just remember thatthe, you know the audience is
there, they're on your side andthey, they're there with you and
they're not really separatefrom you.
Really, I mean, they are, youknow, technically.
But when you're inside thatmusic space or you're in a
(28:25):
performance or you're in somekind of artistic exchange, if
you really can have fun with it,for one thing you know nobody
minds if you stop a song.
I've stopped a song before andthey're like oh whoa, what was I
just doing, you know, andeverybody laughs for a minute
and then you relax and you singyour song and it's OK and it's.
(28:49):
You know that next song can bethe best moment of the night,
because there is that kind ofletting them know that you trust
them or something.
I mean that's some kind of thevulnerability right.
The vulnerability yeah, I thinkthe more open, vulnerable you
can be with the audience,especially in those moments Like
, if you're like, ok, what's myguitar?
(29:10):
Just I just broke a string, oryou know, I've been done a show
where the power went out and wekept playing, you know, and it
was a great moment and it was,you know, something that people
have come back and talked to meabout years later.
Because if you're just reallyhaving fun with the music, I
(29:31):
feel like that stuff is kind ofsecondary.
You know, if you forget somelyrics or you quit playing the
song or your gear messes up,it's such a good point.
Sean Rowe (29:40):
It's like, when it comes down to it, they're just
songs, you know.
You know they're just songs andpeople are there to to to have
fun.
So certain degree ofplayfulness.
If you have that intact, you'dbe OK.
There's an amazing documentary.
I wish I knew the name of it.
It it might be called it's aLeonard Cohen documentary.
(30:02):
It might be called Bird on aWire.
It's it's footage from talkabout like stuff that artists
don't want you to see.
You know this could fall intothat, although you know I'm sure
he proved it being out therebut it's footage of like 1970s
Leonard Cohen in Europe touring.
And here's the guy who is one ofthe best songwriters on the
(30:24):
planet and definitelyuncomfortable, to say the least,
on stage.
You know did not have a naturalperformance kind of an
upbringing at all, so it wascompletely foreign.
If the songs are amazing andpeople knew it.
But his, his interaction withthe audience was so vulnerable
(30:45):
and so real and he would justlike tell them.
You know what I mean, like I'mreally struggling up here.
You know what I mean.
He would like he had his ownway to like let the audience in
on this thing that was happening.
You know he would sing a songabout, like, how bad the
monitors were.
You know, just come up with asong on the spot because he was
so nervous he couldn't think ofanything else to do.
(31:06):
So he just started singingabout how bad the monitors were
and you could hear themscreeching.
You're like there's no way ashow can be enjoyable for
somebody, for somebodyperforming, like, if they can't
hear.
You know, that is the big thingthat happens, like, by the way,
if you want to know somethingthat could go wrong, it's like a
lot of times it's the soundthat we hear on stage.
If it's awful, it's really hardto get into it.
(31:28):
You got to kind of, you got tofind ways to, like, you know,
not fake that, but just like,you know, get it for yourself,
because I feel like if you don'tfeel it yourself, that's where
that's the wrong part.
If you're not feeling it, theaudience is going to not feel it
either.
Christopher Paul Stelling (31:43):
You know it takes a special kind of
sound person to realize it'salmost more pivotal to the
performance when it is a soloact on stage that that we kind
of dial in the monitors.
Sometimes I'll even ask them tolike can you notch 2k out of
the monitor?
Like these mids are killing meor like I just I need to be
comfortable because that'swhat's going to allow me to
(32:04):
transport or hopefully lift off.
Right, that's that's.
Even if I get one of thosemoments, a set when it happens,
god, it's beautiful, but like asa, as a solo, you're not, you
don't have the band to feed offof, you know, you don't have the
other musicians to feed off of.
So the sound, as you say, canbe really important.
(32:26):
Two instances, huge instances,that taught me that anything
could go wrong.
Two first songs like.
First song, newport FolkFestival, like had to stop and
retune the guitar, like I kindof keep finger picking.
This one happened to be in anopen tuning so I could kind of
like retune while I was picking,which was kind of nice, but
like had to stop and I just Ijust commented to the audience.
(32:50):
I said I'm having a very humanmoment, you know, and they
laughed and it was fine, andthen like I walk on stage at
like 930 Club, like first showopening for Ben Harper and my my
couple, little power adapters,the whole, just everything, all
the DIs, everything in front ofme just died and I'm sitting
(33:11):
there trying to unplug.
It turns out it wasn't my fault, it was somebody else.
You know, you just make a jokeabout it.
I feel like both of thoseinstances instantly created I
think Piede said something likethis instantly created this
vulnerability and this likecamaraderie with the audience.
All of a sudden they're in yourhand.
So if you handle it right andyou kind of just all you, all it
(33:35):
takes sometimes is to be like Idon't know, like they can be
one that easily and all of asudden they're on your side and
they're rooting for you becausethey're not out there.
Not out there to judge you,they're out there to have a good
time.
They came to have a good time.
They might not have come to seeyou always, but they came to
have a good time, so the oddsare in your favor.
Nick Grizzle (33:58):
That's the end of part one.
In part two, our guests sharetheir scariest gig horror
stories plus advice they wishthey'd had when first starting
out.
Listen now at patreoncom slashacoustic guitar plus or check
the show notes for that link,plus additional resources
related to this episode.
Thanks for tuning in.
The acoustic guitar podcast isbrought to you by the team at
(34:20):
acoustic guitar magazine.
I'm your host, nick Grizzle,joined for this episode by
co-host Gretchen Menn.
The acoustic guitar podcast isdirected and edited by Joey
Lusterman.
Tanya Gonzalez is our producer.
Executive producers are LyzyLusterman and Stephanie Campos
Dal broi.
Our theme song was composed byAdam Perlmutter and performed
for this episode by JeffreyPepper Rodgers.
If you enjoy this podcast andwant to support us, please visit
(34:43):
our Patreon page at patreoncomslash acoustic guitar plus or
find the link in the show notesfor this episode.
As a supporter, you'll haveaccess to exclusive bonus
episodes, along with otherspecial perks and, as always, if
you're already a patron.
We thank you so much for yoursupport.
You know, you've fallen on your face
enough times to know it doesn'treally hurt.
It's just a song and it's justa show, and everybody's there to
have a good time, so give it ashot, right.
Nick Grizzle (00:44):
Hello and welcome to the Acoustic Guitar Podcast.
I'm your host, nick Grizzle,joined for this episode by
co-host Gretchen Menn.
From the Newport Folk Festivalto art museums in Norway and
every open mic stadium andbarnyard in between, if it's a
gig, Pieta Brown, ChristopherPaul Stelling and Sean Rowe are
ready for it.
Pieta Brown pairs gentle rootsfinger picking with poetic
(01:08):
introspection to craft a uniquebrand of folk.
Christopher Paul Stelling is asoulful, road-weary songwriter
with an intense and intricateapproach to finger style.
Sean Rowe is known for hisresonant baritone voice,
inventive guitar style, anddistinctive Americana sound.
This roundtable ofwell-traveled acoustic
guitarists has played tons ofshows across the world and are
(01:31):
here to share insights, stories,and ideas to get you gig ready
too.
The Acoustic Guitar Podcast is alistener-supported show.
Memberships start at just $1and include access to bonus
episodes of this podcast,exclusive guitar workshops and
much more.
Head over to patreoncom slashacousticguitarplus to learn more
(01:53):
.
If you want a preview of whatwe have to offer, we're making
part two of this very episodeavailable to stream free for a
limited time.
And now I'll kick things overto Pieta Brown, who shares her
perspective on crafting asetlist and tools to overcome
anxiety on stage.
Pieta Brown (02:08):
Because I definitely, especially early on,
really really struggled withshyness and nerves and all those
things.
I mean it was really hard forme to even sing into the
microphone.
So who knows why, I starteddoing gigs.
But at some point along the wayI started writing setlists as a
kind of more like a guide thansomething I need to adhere to
(02:29):
really strictly.
But I found it helpful and alsoa way to relax a little bit
more somehow.
Sean Rowe (02:36):
Do you always follow them when you do have a setlist,
or is it just sort of like aguide?
Pieta Brown (02:40):
It's kind of like a guide, although once I started
doing a lot of playing solo moreand then for kind of a pretty
big stretch there I was doing alot of, you know, I went from
playing duo, trio, band and kindof my own shows into doing a
lot of opening for really greatsongwriters you know, playing in
much bigger rooms than I wasused to and so I started playing
(03:03):
solo quite a bit then and atthat point I started writing my
setlist according to my tunings,because I like to use different
tunings but I would often onlyhave one guitar, so I would
write my setlist according tohow the tunings would flow most
easily without having to tune myguitar that often, which is
kind of fun.
Nick Grizzle (03:24):
But you mentioned a point I wanted to follow up on
a little bit of the nerves, thestage-fright aspect of things.
I don't know anybody who hasplayed a first gig and not had
that feeling.
How did you overcome it?
And do you?
I mean, do you still feel it?
Do you still have things you doto overcome it, like on every
gig?
Pieta Brown (03:42):
I mean, I've always been somebody to struggle with
shyness and in strange kind of Idon't know maybe paradoxical
ways or something, Likesongwriters, of course, there's
some kind of openness, right.
Or if you're getting up andsinging your song, there's
obviously some kind of inherentopenness, right, Because some
(04:02):
people can't even do that.
But as far as being in a roomwith people or even sometimes
just doing an interview, right,and it's like a natural shyness
or something.
So I've definitely reallyslowly learned strange little
quirky coping mechanisms Isuppose you would call them.
Sean Rowe (04:21):
I want to hear one of them what do you got?
Pieta Brown (04:23):
I mean there's like .
I mean some of them are likeweird little things that you
carry with you.
You know, you're like, oh yeah,that's the pick that Mark
Knopfler gave me and it's in mypocket or that's the.
You know, that's the four-leafclover my sister gave me and I
have these few little things andthey're kind of like little
sacred little things I carry.
(04:44):
That makes me feel like maybeit's just that feeling connected
to something else.
Yeah, little things like that.
I've got some other secrets, butI remember actually one of the
first gigs I did.
I was just thinking of thisbecause of doing this interview,
but I was supposed to do alittle radio interview and I
(05:05):
thought it was just an interviewand like play a couple songs.
And I showed up and it was forIowa Public Radio and I showed
up and they wanted me to play a16 minute set live on air and I
was completely unprepared forthat, but somehow I did it.
I really still don't know howand I would really never like to
hear that again, but somethingabout doing it and like
(05:30):
Christopher was saying, you know, you realize you're like it's
just a song and it's just amoment and it's going to pass,
and the more relaxed you can get, I feel like the really the
more you can offer in some way,christopher, you were holding
something up.
Nick Grizzle (05:46):
Do you bring things with you like that too?
Christopher Paul Stelling (05:48):
I mean I've got, you know, this
thing.
I've kept in my pocket for gosh15 years, Like you know, like
just anything that can groundyou.
Sometimes it's not just theshow, it's not just about to
perform, I mean, sometimes justtraveling can be completely
disorienting, you know, I mean alot of us, I feel like a lot of
(06:08):
us.
You know, creatives in generaldeal with anxiety and deal with
panic and deal with some ofthese things, which is somehow
how we got into this.
To begin with, maybe some of uswere like running towards our
fears For some reason.
That's, as always, felt likethe right reason, and artists
(06:29):
I've resonated with aren'tnecessarily always comfortable
with the pursuit.
I've been hosting the open micat Eddie's Attic in Decatur
while while I'm home.
One of my best friends is thetypical host.
And the difference between youknow, at first I was like, oh my
(06:50):
, yeah, my career is finally atthe point where I'm the host of
the local open mic.
Pieta Brown (06:58):
Exactly you made it .
Christopher Paul Stelling (07:00):
It's been refreshing.
But you do notice thedifferences in the people, the
different motivations of peopleas they come to it, like the
people that obviously have thestars in their eyes and just
kind of sound like they thinkthey're supposed to sound and do
what they think they'resupposed to do, and then the
people that are genuinelyterrified because they're giving
(07:25):
something hidden, becausethey're giving something of
themselves, something secretthat's completely off topic but
that has to do somehow with thelittle charms.
Musicians have always carriedlittle charms, little
rattlesnake tails, in theirguitars, or mercury dimes or
(07:47):
whatever.
People love their little luckycharms and I think there's
something to be said for that.
Sean Rowe (07:53):
I think grounding is such a great way to put it
because you can also have I dothat as well but sometimes for
me it's in a different way.
Thinking itself is a problem onthe stage.
In a way, if you're logical,thought and analytical mind
(08:13):
becomes very problematic whenyou're trying to get in some
kind of a zone, because you'vealready memorized everything.
Your body knows what to do.
So when your body knows what todo, you don't need that part,
that analytical part of yourbrain, but it wants to hold on
for dear life and it's really inthere.
So at times you are in a fightwith this part of you.
(08:36):
That's really weird because tothe outside world and to the
audience, they have no idea whatyou're going through in the
moment.
But these things can be seenvery real and heavy, and I've
noticed one thing that reallyhelps is that I will focus on
something tactile, likesomething that I'm feeling, like
the feel of the guitar, becauseit doesn't require any
(08:59):
analytical thought.
It's just like the way that thestrings feel or the air or
something else that's in theroom.
You know what I mean, and thatis similar to bringing something
and, like Pieta and Christopher, like that same idea of
grounding is super important,but also like something else
(09:22):
that Chris was saying too islike you know why we come into
this?
And I used to think, like why inthe hell did I pick this kind
of career and lifestyle?
Because like I was a shy kidtoo, really shy, and like I'm
putting myself out thereemotionally in all these ways
that don't seem to match mypersonality.
But I think, when it comes downto a big part of it is like how
(09:44):
we derive, like how we acquirethis love and acceptance.
That's like inherent to allhumans, right?
It's like how we go about thatis different for everybody and
people, creative people you knowthat you know paint or make art
, or you know music or whatnot.
You know a lot of them.
I think that's how they get theacceptance you know, that's how
(10:06):
they fill that place inthemselves and, to a certain
degree, is through performanceand through the connection with
the audience, you know, which isa very real and palpable thing.
So Can I?
Christopher Paul Stelling (10:16):
say one thing about set lists,
because that's where we started.
I loved what Pieta said aboutlike not having one.
I've been doing this thing.
I've noticed the past I don'tknow four or five years, minus
the break.
I kind of know what I'm gonnastart with and I know what I'm
gonna end with.
(10:37):
But aside from that, you know,I've usually I've got like a
binder.
I carry this binder in mygearbox that has like the
majority of my songs printed out, in case, like I'm in a hotel
room or something and I wannalook over a lyric which never
happens but the comfort inknowing they're there is
(10:57):
everything.
I'm jealous that took eightyears to make that binder.
Pieta Brown (11:01):
I'm serious, I'm jealous.
Christopher Paul Stelling (11:02):
But that binder has a little plastic
, clear plastic thing in thefront of it and I've got like 30
songs written on a piece ofpaper stuck in there and I throw
that down by the mic stand andI play the first song and then I
just start free associating.
I talk about my day, I talkabout some weird thought, I have
(11:25):
in the car a quote I heard, Itell a little story and I find
that as I free associate andtalk, I just kinda keep like
looking down and then all of asudden, like there's a spark on
one of the songs and I never,ever do.
I never do this thing anymorewhere I talk about what the
songs are about.
But I find that whatever I'mfree associating about will
(11:48):
somehow lead into the like youwere talking about, it'll lead
into the next song.
And then sometimes I see thelittle smiles on people's faces
when the song that I'm playingnext will reference kind of what
I was just talking about,without having to be so obvious
about it, because, like I don'tknow, nobody really wants to
(12:08):
hear like this next song isabout blah, blah, blah, blah.
For me it helps the songsreinvent themselves night after
night because they're aboutsomething different now.
Every time I'm not talkingabout what was happening in my
life when I wrote it.
I'm talking about somethingthat's happening in my life now
and trying to relate it through.
(12:29):
You know, this weird map thatbecomes the show and it just
keeps things fresh for me and Ilove that's become.
My favorite thing lately is thethings that happen between the
songs and the songs.
I just kind of close my eyesand go off into outer space.
But the free association as I'mcreating that set list
(12:53):
spontaneously is maybe myfavorite thing right now.
Pieta Brown (12:57):
I remember that just made me think, actually
made me think of a couple ofthings.
One is I remember reading aquote somewhere by Tony Bennett
just about you know he's sung alot of the same songs many, many
times and he said I lovesinging every song every time
(13:18):
and that's something I carrywith me too.
Just there's like a you know,just that kind of I don't know
something about just reallystaying open, like to the song
however it's gonna change thatnight or however you're gonna
sing it that night.
So I think about that sometimesand then another this is kind of
(13:38):
the going back to the nervesand the shyness thing, but it's
a really great story that Ithink of often, which is I got
to do some shows with John Prine, quite a few for a little while
.
It's kind of a concentratedtime, but really early on, like
maybe it was before we did anyshows or somehow, I got a
(13:59):
message like he always likes theperson who's opening to sing a
song with him.
He said you choose one and I'llchoose one.
And so I was like, okay, Ichoose Long Monday.
You know I love this songcalled Long Monday by John Prine
, so we did that song, we got todo that song.
(14:21):
But he said, well, I'm going tochoose in spite of ourselves.
And for anybody who doesn't know, Iris has become a family
member and of course she's oneof my favorite singers and so on
.
So you can imagine, like thefirst time I go to sing this in
spite of ourselves with John, Iwas really nervous.
And so we're sitting there, theband's kind of started and John
(14:45):
looks over at me and he cantell that I'm really nervous.
He's done it how many thousandsof times?
Right, he can read me, likeright now, and he gives me this
big smile before he startssinging and he's kind of
standing back by me and then hesays I'm going for it, and then
he steps up to the mic and Ijust I carry that with me, you
(15:07):
know, because it's like, howmany times is he saying that
song?
And it just just that sense ofhumor, I guess, you know.
And lightness is also anotherthing that has really helped me
over the years of just reallyremembering to have fun and go
for it.
You know every time.
Christopher Paul Stelling (15:24):
Can I ask a question to the two or
three of you?
I know we've both, like, openedfor a lot of people in,
possibly, venues that are biggerthan the ones that we would get
to play and or maybe I don'tknow, but that happens sometimes
and it's amazing.
But sometimes it's like you gota tight 30 and you've been
(15:45):
given this great job and youwant to keep the job and you
don't want to make anybody upsetand that's a hard thing to nail
the 30.
You know what I mean.
All of a sudden, you've got twominutes left and you're like do
I do?
Do I do?
Do I go?
What do I do, you know?
And so that's a very different.
That's a very different gig.
Definitely you want to hit yourmark and also you want to start
(16:09):
strong and you want to buildand you want to end on a good
note and you want to, you know,really compliment the people
that brought you out.
Sean Rowe (16:17):
It's a trip.
I know exactly what you'resaying.
I totally resonate with thetrying to build a set, like
sometimes.
It's sometimes more of achallenge when you have less
songs, you know, because you dohave to think about that.
Yeah, 30 minutes, and yeah, Ithink about that.
There is a part that feelseasier and that most of the
(16:37):
audience is there to see theheadlining act, so they're not
expecting anything from you, sowhich gives you a certain amount
of freedom.
You know there's a certainamount of excitement of like ah,
maybe you know if, like,they've never heard me before,
you know what I mean.
So surprising people in a goodway can be kind of cool,
exciting, you know.
But also there's also thiselement that is a little bit
(17:00):
anxiety-latent and that's beingthe opener means that you're not
going to get necessarily thesame kind of sound treatment
that the headliner is going toget, you know, or the same
amount of time on the stage toget really comfortable with the
sound.
And sometimes you're rushing tojust get out there and they
even cut your set shorterbecause the you know, the time
(17:21):
commitment thing has changedsomehow.
So you have to be, like,totally on your game and ready
and ready to go, you know.
So that can have its own set ofanxious problems, you know.
Pieta Brown (17:32):
I actually really have gotten a lot from doing
that over the years.
But something about it reallyalso just I don't know if you do
it enough I feel like it alsogives you a certain kind of
freedom.
Like Sean was saying, there's afreedom in it and
experimentation or something.
Once you get kind ofcomfortable enough or free
(17:53):
enough to really experiment inthose opening situations, I feel
like as a performer orespecially somebody who's just
starting to do gigs, I feel likeit's actually a really great
experiment because in some waysyou have this inner pressure,
but like the pressure, externalpressure is like in some ways
it's not as much or something.
(18:15):
And then also, just I think ithelps you kind of streamline
your tone, which you know that'sone of my favorite things in
the world is tone.
So for me it's I like openingfor that reason of just like how
great of a tone can I get withall these limitations right?
Like, and that's why the gearbecomes like these tiny little
(18:36):
things, like you know justlittle, whatever little pedal
you might bring or whatever yourdirect box is, or these things
that you know you can count on,no matter who the sound person
is or I don't know.
It's kind of experimenting withlimitations.
I found it really helpful overthe years, just as a performer,
I think.
Christopher Paul Stelling (18:56):
I found that coming out of that,
it was like explosive.
All of a sudden you're back toyour.
You know you go out on the roadopening for somebody for a
couple months and then all of asudden you have your own gig and
it's like oh my.
God, it's.
Yeah, they're both.
I mean, it's it tightened up,my it tightened everything up
for me.
There's a before.
(19:16):
There's definitely a before andafter with those kind of gigs.
It's a real blessing, isn't it?
Pieta Brown (19:23):
Yeah, I feel like especially, yeah, I think, when
you're, especially when you'refirst getting going, I mean, if
you can, if you can relax andwork past the shyness or, you
know, trying out your new songsand all that there is, there's
something really strengtheningand that kind of free
experimentation, but in a kindof I mean, really, let's face it
(19:43):
, most of the audiences that arethere to hear songs are pretty,
pretty forgiving and prettyaccepting, even if they don't,
you know, even if they don'tgive you a standing ovation when
you're opening or somethingLike, if you're, if you open
yourselves to the people thatare there to see whoever they're
there to see, like there'ssomething really fun in that
(20:07):
process, I think.
Gretchen Menn (20:09):
What are your biggest thoughts on recording
yourself and, you know, eitherlearning from it or does that
promote a type of toxic selfconsciousness?
What do you guys think aboutthat, and do you do it Like
recording your performances andwatching them later?
Sean Rowe (20:25):
Oh, I think there's a certain amount of bliss by not
remembering things correctly youknow might be beneficial.
Nick Grizzle (20:35):
I know in the past .
Sean Rowe (20:36):
There's been a few times where I've I've seen a
performance back and you knowyou're watching it back on an
iPhone.
You know You're gonna miss alot like especially.
I think that's why a lot of usI think I'm not alone with a lot
of musicians that don't likepeople that to take iPhone
(20:57):
footage while we're playing,because it's not only
distracting but it's also likethe best thing you could
possibly receive is the momentright now.
You know what I mean.
The moment right now is thebest it's gonna get, you know
mean.
So why do you want to focus onwhat's on the screen and then
watch it later, which youprobably won't even watch again?
You know I mean.
So I think there's there's aninherent problem at like looking
(21:21):
at the past In this kind of wayand like critiquing and all
that because it's never gonna beas good as it was in the moment
.
Pieta Brown (21:29):
You know so at the same time I will say I mean,
I've worked with a lot ofartists that they're again that
maybe have people close to themDocumenting lots of things just
kind of regularly, and then theytake pieces from that like
every once in a while when areally particularly Resonant
(21:49):
performance happens or something, and then, oh yeah, great
Listen, we got this documented.
We just happened to record thelast 10 nights, so now you have
these beautiful performancesthat got caught.
I mean, that's kind of inspiredme lately.
It's not something that it haskind of sparked an interest in
that like.
To me it seems like eitheryou're documenting all the time
(22:13):
or maybe not at all or something, but that Maybe, if you're
documenting all the time, thatit allows To catch some of that,
you know, like those reallygreat moments.
Sean Rowe (22:22):
That's a good point.
And you know, from like a fansperspective or for like just a
music, you know, aficionado,it's like you, you love those in
between moments.
You know, you love those likeImpromptu.
You know performances that getcaptured that weren't supposed
to be recorded, or something youknow for for the people that
(22:44):
are doing it, they might notnecessarily think, ah man, I
don't, that's not really thebest version of this that I want
to put out there, but it's likeas a fan or as somebody
listening, that might be likethe coolest thing you've ever
heard, you know, from them.
So yeah, because it works bothways on that, I mean, if you're
doing sports and You're, youknow, wanting to correct a
certain Technique, you know it'sreally good to look at like
(23:08):
footage of yourself doing.
You see what you're doing wrong.
In the same way of aperformance, you could watch and
be like, oh man, I just spent,like you know, 10 minutes
telling a joke and you're likethree minutes actually playing.
You know, I mean, so maybe Ishouldn't do that next time.
Christopher Paul Stelling (23:22):
I feel like we've lived through
the age of this session, youknow, like the video session
when you're on tour.
We've all done a lot of theselive sessions which kind of the
session, kind of the videosession thing Kind of brings the
intimacy of of like a, of likea recording studio take To the
benefit of being able to see theperformer play live.
(23:44):
Like we would probably allapproach a song in a different
way In a recording environmentthan we would on a stage, but
the video thing kind of Capturedboth of those things and I
think for a lot of us likehelped our careers in a way.
There was something cool aboutdoing them and, like you know,
watching a second of them andbeing like, oh, that sounds good
(24:06):
, that looks good, but I wouldnever watch the whole thing ever
.
Know about you guys.
But sometimes in the studio Iget into these little like
Horrible cycles where I'll likeplay the intro like again and
again and again and be like, no,it wasn't right, no, it wasn't
right.
Like all the sudden, all thesudden the tempo.
The next morning You're likethat's way too fast or that's
way too slow, like I have thistheory that like it's not a
(24:28):
theory, it's more of a joke, butlike Recording is like
taxidermy, like songs are these?
This song a song?
Is this beautiful deer runningthrough the forest?
And then to record it is tokind of Kill it and stuff it and
sometimes you get a beautifullikeness Right and sometimes the
taxidermist is no good and it'skind of got a messed up face.
Pieta Brown (24:51):
It's really beautifully said actually.
Christopher Paul Stellin (24:54):
You're trying to capture that likeness
.
And the thing about playing itlive that's thrilling is you
can't get in that feedback loopwhere you're like, no, it's
wrong, no, this is wrong.
No, it's like you start thesong on stage, you're gonna
finish it.
Whether you flub that littlenote or you mess up your little
voice thing that you wanted todo or not, like you're gonna get
(25:17):
to the end of the song andthat's that's where the freedom
comes from.
And sometimes we find like weall love Dylan right, like
Sometimes I've I'm having thisEternal battle right now where I
have to remind myself that Onsome of the recordings I love,
my favorite things are themistakes.
Why is everybody fixing everylittle mistake?
(25:38):
Now?
Because they can, and why didthey not do it then?
Because they couldn't.
That moment where it all startsto fall apart and it all comes
back together, that's where themagic is.
And I try to remind myself ofthat when I get in a in a
negative loop about everythinghas to be perfect in the studio.
If you can live with it, youcan leave it.
(26:00):
I'm just trying to learn to livewith it a little bit more.
Sean Rowe (26:02):
There's a certain component to the studio which is
like you are still playing livebecause you, the audience is in
your head, it's a projectedthing, like you know that this
could be, this could be thething that is on tape, you know,
I mean, or that's Sounds arcade, say that but it's like this
(26:28):
could be the thing that isforever, you know, I mean, and
it is what.
So you, sometimes I feel likein my headphones when I'm doing
a take is like in real time, Iam hearing in real time what is
actually going to be forever.
Right now it's kind of freaky,like you, you, you kind of have
these different ways of likeputting that out of your head
Because it's just too weird, youknow.
But also, if you think about it, it's like I was Thought about
(26:51):
this for a long time thatthere's so many parallels with
film and Theater compared tolive and recording with music,
you know like, because liketheater is like live, if on the
stage, you know, in a lot ofways, and then movies are like
recording in a lot of ways.
We even use the same names, likeyou know producer and director.
You know they kind of sharesome features of you know music
(27:16):
To film, so I can relate to alot of things that actors say.
You know that share those twomediums is really interesting.
But like what you're saying,chris, about yeah, we, when you
are on stage and you're doing alive thing, there is no pressure
that this, it's different everytime and it's supposed to be
different every time, so there'sno thinking about that.
This is a set thing and that's.
That is part of the beauty ofit.
Nick Grizzle (27:38):
So what do you do when you're playing live?
What do you do when stuff goesoff the rails?
Pieta Brown (27:43):
I come back to that as something I said earlier,
kind of in a different variation.
But as I've gone along, I feellike the more you are able to
just really trust the audiencein the moment, the it's, it's
just all really one big thing,you know.
And when you feel that kind of,if you can find it and it's,
(28:04):
it's hard to articulate what thefeeling is, but you know it
when you feel it.
But if you just remember thatthe, you know the audience is
there, they're on your side andthey, they're there with you and
they're not really separatefrom you.
Really, I mean, they are, youknow, technically.
But when you're inside thatmusic space or you're in a
(28:25):
performance or you're in somekind of artistic exchange, if
you really can have fun with it,for one thing you know nobody
minds if you stop a song.
I've stopped a song before andthey're like oh whoa, what was I
just doing, you know, andeverybody laughs for a minute
and then you relax and you singyour song and it's OK and it's.
(28:49):
You know that next song can bethe best moment of the night,
because there is that kind ofletting them know that you trust
them or something.
I mean that's some kind of thevulnerability right.
The vulnerability yeah, I thinkthe more open, vulnerable you
can be with the audience,especially in those moments Like
, if you're like, ok, what's myguitar?
(29:10):
Just I just broke a string, oryou know, I've been done a show
where the power went out and wekept playing, you know, and it
was a great moment and it was,you know, something that people
have come back and talked to meabout years later.
Because if you're just reallyhaving fun with the music, I
(29:31):
feel like that stuff is kind ofsecondary.
You know, if you forget somelyrics or you quit playing the
song or your gear messes up,it's such a good point.
Sean Rowe (29:40):
It's like, when it comes down to it, they're just
songs, you know.
You know they're just songs andpeople are there to to to have
fun.
So certain degree ofplayfulness.
If you have that intact, you'dbe OK.
There's an amazing documentary.
I wish I knew the name of it.
It it might be called it's aLeonard Cohen documentary.
(30:02):
It might be called Bird on aWire.
It's it's footage from talkabout like stuff that artists
don't want you to see.
You know this could fall intothat, although you know I'm sure
he proved it being out therebut it's footage of like 1970s
Leonard Cohen in Europe touring.
And here's the guy who is one ofthe best songwriters on the
(30:24):
planet and definitelyuncomfortable, to say the least,
on stage.
You know did not have a naturalperformance kind of an
upbringing at all, so it wascompletely foreign.
If the songs are amazing andpeople knew it.
But his, his interaction withthe audience was so vulnerable
(30:45):
and so real and he would justlike tell them.
You know what I mean, like I'mreally struggling up here.
You know what I mean.
He would like he had his ownway to like let the audience in
on this thing that was happening.
You know he would sing a songabout, like, how bad the
monitors were.
You know, just come up with asong on the spot because he was
so nervous he couldn't think ofanything else to do.
(31:06):
So he just started singingabout how bad the monitors were
and you could hear themscreeching.
You're like there's no way ashow can be enjoyable for
somebody, for somebodyperforming, like, if they can't
hear.
You know, that is the big thingthat happens, like, by the way,
if you want to know somethingthat could go wrong, it's like a
lot of times it's the soundthat we hear on stage.
If it's awful, it's really hardto get into it.
(31:28):
You got to kind of, you got tofind ways to, like, you know,
not fake that, but just like,you know, get it for yourself,
because I feel like if you don'tfeel it yourself, that's where
that's the wrong part.
If you're not feeling it, theaudience is going to not feel it
either.
Christopher Paul Stelling (31:43):
You know it takes a special kind of
sound person to realize it'salmost more pivotal to the
performance when it is a soloact on stage that that we kind
of dial in the monitors.
Sometimes I'll even ask them tolike can you notch 2k out of
the monitor?
Like these mids are killing meor like I just I need to be
comfortable because that'swhat's going to allow me to
(32:04):
transport or hopefully lift off.
Right, that's that's.
Even if I get one of thosemoments, a set when it happens,
god, it's beautiful, but like asa, as a solo, you're not, you
don't have the band to feed offof, you know, you don't have the
other musicians to feed off of.
So the sound, as you say, canbe really important.
(32:26):
Two instances, huge instances,that taught me that anything
could go wrong.
Two first songs like.
First song, newport FolkFestival, like had to stop and
retune the guitar, like I kindof keep finger picking.
This one happened to be in anopen tuning so I could kind of
like retune while I was picking,which was kind of nice, but
like had to stop and I just Ijust commented to the audience.
(32:50):
I said I'm having a very humanmoment, you know, and they
laughed and it was fine, andthen like I walk on stage at
like 930 Club, like first showopening for Ben Harper and my my
couple, little power adapters,the whole, just everything, all
the DIs, everything in front ofme just died and I'm sitting
(33:11):
there trying to unplug.
It turns out it wasn't my fault, it was somebody else.
You know, you just make a jokeabout it.
I feel like both of thoseinstances instantly created I
think Piede said something likethis instantly created this
vulnerability and this likecamaraderie with the audience.
All of a sudden they're in yourhand.
So if you handle it right andyou kind of just all you, all it
(33:35):
takes sometimes is to be like Idon't know, like they can be
one that easily and all of asudden they're on your side and
they're rooting for you becausethey're not out there.
Not out there to judge you,they're out there to have a good
time.
They came to have a good time.
They might not have come to seeyou always, but they came to
have a good time, so the oddsare in your favor.
Nick Grizzle (33:58):
That's the end of part one.
In part two, our guests sharetheir scariest gig horror
stories plus advice they wishthey'd had when first starting
out.
Listen now at patreoncom slashacoustic guitar plus or check
the show notes for that link,plus additional resources
related to this episode.
Thanks for tuning in.
The acoustic guitar podcast isbrought to you by the team at
(34:20):
acoustic guitar magazine.
I'm your host, nick Grizzle,joined for this episode by
co-host Gretchen Menn.
The acoustic guitar podcast isdirected and edited by Joey
Lusterman.
Tanya Gonzalez is our producer.
Executive producers are LyzyLusterman and Stephanie Campos
Dal broi.
Our theme song was composed byAdam Perlmutter and performed
for this episode by JeffreyPepper Rodgers.
If you enjoy this podcast andwant to support us, please visit
(34:43):
our Patreon page at patreoncomslash acoustic guitar plus or
find the link in the show notesfor this episode.
As a supporter, you'll haveaccess to exclusive bonus
episodes, along with otherspecial perks and, as always, if
you're already a patron.
We thank you so much for yoursupport.
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