September 25, 2024 • 43 mins
It's easier than ever to grab a guitar and a microphone and hit record—but how can you get the most out of your recording session? We sat down with Joe Gore and Molly Miller, both guitarists and studio pros, for a conversation about how to prepare.
Thanks to G7th for sponsoring this episode. Learn about the Performance 3 and the other ranges of G7th capos at www.G7th.com.
Additional resources:
- Listen to Part 2 on Patreon.
- Visit Molly Miller's website.
- Visit Joe Gore's website and watch his video lesson for Acoustic Guitar on developing rhythmic independence in your thumb.
- You might also like our "Get Gig Ready" and "Why Should I Plug In?" podcast episodes.
- Check out "A Guide to Getting Started with Home Recording" by Doug Young.
The Acoustic Guitar Podcast theme music is composed by Adam Perlmutter and performed for this episode by Joe Gore—entirely on his 2014 Kris Barnett classical guitar. The percussion is thumps and taps on the body. There’s some home recording processing, like added subharmonics for the bass and compression/EQ for the percussion.
This episode is hosted by Nick Grizzle and E.E. Bradman, produced by Tanya Gonzalez, and directed and edited by Joey Lusterman. Executive producers are Lyzy Lusterman and Stephanie Campos Dal Broi.
The Acoustic Guitar Podcast is produced by the team at Acoustic Guitar magazine, including:
- Publisher: Lyzy Lusterman
- Editorial Director: Adam Perlmutter
- Managing Editor: Kevin Owens
- Creative Director: Joey Lusterman
- Digital Content Director: Stephanie Campos Dal Broi
- Digital Content Manager: Nick Grizzle
- Marketing Services Manager: Tanya Gonzalez
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Joe Gore (00:00):
you kind of do have to love your own playing or
believe with some degree ofconviction that you have the
potential to add somethingreally meaningful to a recording
.
Nick Grizzle (00:06):
Thank, you, welcome to the Acoustic Guitar
(01:28):
Podcast.
I'm your host, nick Grizzle,and in today's episode I'm
joined by co-host Elton Bradmanand two special guests, joe Gore
and Molly Miller.
The four of us had a lively andfascinating conversation, all
about recording acoustic guitars.
Both Gore and Miller areseasoned studio pros who have
been in sessions with majorartists.
(01:48):
For Gore, that includesmusicians like Tracy Chapman,
tom Waits, pj Harvey and AmyMann, and Miller has been in the
studio with Jason Mraz and herown Molly Miller Guitar Trio,
and she's a professor of studioguitar at USC.
Suffice to say, they have a lotof knowledge and we're very
willing to share it.
Before we dive in, I'd like tothank G7th, the capo company,
(02:12):
for sponsoring this episode.
The G7th Performance 3 guitarcapo is the culmination of years
of designing, tweaking andimproving, but, most importantly
, listening to guitarists andtheir views on what a capo
should do.
Now, coupling their uniquetension control system with the
groundbreaking Adaptive RadiusTechnology or ART string pad
(02:33):
mechanism, gives a near-perfectcapo experience complete control
over the pressure placed onyour strings and phenomenal
tuning stability.
For more information about thePerformance 3 and other ranges
of G7 Capos, go to g7.com Now,without further ado.
Enjoy our Get Recording Readyepisode.
Our guests begin theconversation detailing their
(02:56):
acoustic recording bona fides.
Molly Miller (02:58):
So I've done some acoustic recording at home, but
I also have been in the studiofor different things.
I feel like the most notableacoustic thing with my face on
on it is I did some work withwith Taylor for some uh,
acoustic um renditions of Disneysongs, that um, like, yeah, I
did it.
(03:19):
So I did a few of those.
But, yeah, just working withdifferent artists recording and
then, um, I'll record from home,sometimes acoustic as well.
Joe Gore (03:26):
Tom Waits, tracy Chapman, pj Harvey and I have a
lot of experience recording youknow, normal sounding acoustic
(03:53):
guitars and not so normalsounding ones, cool.
Nick Grizzle (03:59):
So we thought about maybe breaking this up
into three sections before,during and after recording.
And let's start with gettingmentally prepared, because
before you even touch the guitar, you have to be in the right
headspace, right?
Joe Gore (04:07):
I'm going to suggest even backing up a stage more in
generality.
And you know, the big questionis for whom are you recording?
Who's in charge?
Are you the artist andrecordist and producer?
Are you trying to please otherpeople?
Are you the artist andrecordist and producer?
Are you trying to please otherpeople?
There's just so many possibleways that you could go into a
(04:32):
recording session.
If it's a recording sessionwith an artist, it might involve
doing a lot of research intheir previous music if you
haven't heard it, and seeingwhat sort of things they've done
in the past.
If you're recording by yourselfin your home studio, it's a
whole different world.
You can suck as much as youlike and take as long to get it
right, and if the clock'sticking, it's got to sound
pretty good on the first take.
(04:53):
So the mental preparationsmight be very different
depending on the context of therecording.
Yeah, I think that's a reallygood point.
Molly Miller (05:02):
I personally, I think, think, prefer having
someone else being the engineerbecause, you know, just talking
about the mental state, I thinkit's one less thing to be
distracted by um and to beconsumed by is like making sure
all that element, all thoseelements, because it really is
two jobs and so often now Ithink you know we are doing
(05:22):
multiple jobs at once, um, butit's nice just to be the
guitarist and, yeah, checkingout the artist, who is it for Um
, and I feel like also havingoptions.
Sometimes I like to go into asession if it's special I mean
mine or not mine, mine more.
So I know what I want, you know.
But if it's someone else's,having options so you're not
(05:43):
married to one thing becauseit's not what you want per se,
it's not your vision, it'ssomeone else's vision that
you're helping create andhopefully you know your voice is
still in it.
Joe Gore (05:51):
Molly, I could not agree with that more.
That's very wise.
I do hate being my own engineer, but I am almost all the time.
But it's grim reality.
But in terms of the artist, Ithink you hit on something
really key, which is, if I'mworking with an artist and don't
(06:12):
know exactly what to expect butsay, maybe I've heard some
demos or something, I'll go inwith a stack full of ideas.
But I find that the harder partisn't concocting ideas as much
as it is responding in themoment and sometimes the idea
that you know is genius, youknow that producer is saying
let's try something else.
(06:32):
I've blown it a few times bytrying to explain the genius of
my idea.
So it's like having a lot ofideas on tap but then being able
to just throw it all out thewindow and just dive in.
Like having a lot of ideas ontap but then being able to just
throw it all out the window andjust dive in.
I find that a very challengingmental leap to make and it's
taken me a long time to learnhow to do it.
Molly Miller (06:56):
Yeah, I had a challenging situation recently
where I was playing for anartist and she kind of gave me.
She was like you, do you?
She had heard me recording adifferent thing and she was like
I love what you do like come inand do your thing, and like she
had heard me recording adifferent thing and she just she
was like I love what you do,like come in and do your thing
and you know, I, we, it was likea live recording so an amazing
bassist and drummer as well, andthe three of us were just
recording live and I was like,yeah, I crushed it.
You know, like perfect.
And the engineer walks out andthe producers are like great,
(07:18):
you know, all of you guys soundsounds perfect.
And she's like, yeah, no, Idon't like what you're doing,
molly.
And I was like what you don'tlike me?
And like she had bad demo-itisand she was not a guitar player
and played on it, so she had allthese things that were out of
time and not things thatdecisions I would ever make that
were like very, yeah, likeagain.
(07:39):
But it was her song and so itwas this.
Like it was so challengingbecause she'd I play something.
She'd be like how do I put this?
Play it more out of time, canyou not play it?
Well?
And it was just it was that wasone of the more challenging
recording situations I I havehad a demo, demo.
Joe Gore (07:56):
Itis is a real, is a real thing and as bad as it is
in a music session.
It's 10 times worse when you'reworking on a soundtrack,
because then they will havewatched their film 2,000 times
in preparation and they cancompletely say this is just temp
, do you, do you?
And what they want is the tempscore.
I know, and if I were afilmmaker I'd probably fall prey
(08:17):
to that too.
But yeah, I hear you and that'sbeen really hard sometimes.
Molly Miller (08:24):
Yeah, yeah, it's like really being egoless, which
is an impossible thing to dosometimes, as you know, what we
do is so closely attached to ouregos, but it is.
That's like.
That's the mental part of ittoo.
Joe Gore (08:39):
Well, I look, I look at fellow musicians, I'm kind of
focusing on the studio worldand I realize we should maybe be
addressing more home recordists, like most of us are.
But, um, when I've done studiosessions with session players
who are far more successful andget hired a lot more than I do,
(08:59):
it's exact.
It is truly the egolessness.
Um, I've never been able todefeat my egotism, but I've
certainly been humbled a lotover the years.
Nick Grizzle (09:11):
Yeah, so when you're going into the studio or
when you're recording your ownstuff, do you have a sound in
mind ahead of time, and how doyou deal with that changing?
Molly Miller (09:20):
You know, if someone nicks it, I let it go,
because especially, yeah, yeahto me that that's the, that's
when you're being a, a good um,contributor to a record or so
you know, like that's whenyou're being a good participant
is understanding, like it's notyou.
You know, um, yeah, whoever'svision it is, I think listening
(09:43):
to them is super important so I,I like all of things.
And also, like you know I knowit's not recording per se, but
last, just this last week, westarted a new song.
I'm on tour right now withJason Mraz and we were working
with something a new song, orlike like reviving an old song,
and I've been attached to someof the things I had done before
and the piano player was likeMolly, I don't think you should
(10:04):
do, I think this other thingwould help fill out the sound
more, and I was like I reallylove what I was doing before.
And then, like I listened backto the recording, I was like
he's right, so it's like notabout me playing these like cool
little, like trill lines that Ilove, but instead doing power
chords, because that's what thesong was called for.
And yeah, and I find it'seasiest to do that, you know, in
(10:25):
a situation where it's not justone thing.
But, even in general, I actuallyI think if someone says no, I
don't struggle with holding onto it.
If I, if I, you know, yeah,you're not the only voice in the
room.
Joe Gore (10:38):
I see, I see a pattern to this interview which is I'm
just basically going to sayeverything Molly said is
brilliant.
Which is I'm just basicallygoing to say everything Molly
said is brilliant.
We're kind of, I think, playingfrom an overlapping set of
experiences.
But to bring it back to homerecording, let's say you're
(10:58):
working on a piece and recordingit at home and you're doing it
all and you have no one toanswer to.
To echo Molly, a lot of timesit's playback.
A lot of times I don't recordthat stuff as much as I should,
but I'm starting to getting inthe habit, even if it's just
recording on a voice memo thing.
I have a voice memo recorder onmy wristwatch and I'm just
(11:20):
trying to get in the habit of,you know, hitting it when things
are going and then I come backand you know, listen at the end
of the day or first thing thenext day, and things that you
can have a lot of anguish oversometimes just become crystal
clear, like I was trying so hardand that just doesn't work.
Back to the drawing board orvice versa.
(11:41):
Something you might have playedthat you just thought was a
mediocre idea in passing mightreally hold up later.
It's so hard to maintainlistening objectivity over the
course of a recording session ormixing session.
Our ears are a moving target.
We literally um, what we, whatwe hear, literally differs, um,
(12:02):
you know, and after after anhour of playing music and after
two hours of playing music it'sprobably exaggerated in my case
because I'm a lot older thanMolly, but our ears do fluctuate
and having you know, some kindof objective measure, even as,
just like a crappy little voicememo recording, can shine a
(12:23):
light where there was previouslynothing but darkness I love
that line our ears are a movingtarget.
Molly Miller (12:31):
I have never heard that and it's so true.
You know, like one minute youthink something's amazing and
you listen back a day later, orwhatever.
You're like what was I thinking?
Joe Gore (12:39):
a lot of, a lot of that.
A lot of that I developed notfrom you know sessions or
recording, but from writing gearreviews for um other guitar
magazines since the dawn of thetime.
And especially when you sayanything negative about a
product, you got to back it upwith facts you know audio or
audio analysis charts orsomething like that, and also
(13:03):
not to pimp my stuff too much.
But I have a small guitar pedalcompany and doing that work of
sitting at the bench for an hourgoing back and forth between
two different transistors, youjust sometimes can't decide in
one session because what you'rehearing when you started is
literally not what you heardwhen you began.
Elton Bradman (13:23):
It's amazing, it's like you know what you guys
are talking about.
You began.
It's amazing.
It's like you know what youguys are talking about is
reminding me of producingoneself, like that's like a
whole nother skill set, of ofbeing the artist and being the
producer and going back andforth between those things yeah,
you know, I started doing thisthing some years back and I feel
like in like grad school orcollege, trying to listen back
(13:44):
to recordings of myself as ifit's not me, because it's
actually.
Molly Miller (13:49):
It's a weird thing .
You listen differently, we areso much more judgmental of
ourselves and I find if I'mlistening to another guitar
player, I'm not picking out thewrong note, but instead
listening to it as a whole.
Elton Bradman (14:02):
So when I listen back to myself, I really try to
do that and I don't alwaysaccomplish it, but yeah, you
know, I think of all those, allthe great, great session players
who come out with solo albumsand it's almost like for me as a
listener and music journalistand as a bass player, there's
like a certain sub genre of soloalbums by session musicians and
(14:27):
I'm constantly thinking hmm,okay.
So they've been in this worldand touched by these things and
now they decided hell, no, on mysolo recording.
I'm going to do completely theopposite, or it sounds like what
they've spent time recording.
You know what I mean.
Joe Gore (14:43):
So I was just wondering.
There are probably a lot ofgood albums in that category,
but they're not coming to mindright away.
But all the bad ones sure are inthat category, but they're not
coming to mind right away, butall the bad ones sure are.
I think often it's as simple ashere's all the wanking they
wouldn't let me do on thesession or they wouldn't let me
do on stage.
Now I'm just going to go fullon and just follow my vision,
(15:07):
and sometimes the vision isreally vulgar and unattractive.
Like certain session, playersbenefit from working with great
artists and great producers toshape the ideas and, to varying
degrees, the player relationshipwith the artist and or the
producer who may or may not betwo people or who may or may not
(15:27):
share the same agenda is socase by case and sometimes,
sometimes, um, you're, you know,you're getting your direction
shaped a lot.
Um, when I work with tom waits,he's astonishing at that because
he never gives a specificmusical direction.
(15:49):
He never says anything likeplay it up an octave or whatever
, but he's standing in front ofyou like literally twitching,
he's very hyperkinetic and it'salmost like he's shaping the
clay with his hands and saying alittle more of this, a little
more of that, a little more ofthat, a little more of that and
in the end he hasn't suggested anote and I guess technically I
(16:13):
quote made up the part buthasn't suggested a note.
And I guess technically I quotemade up the part, but it's a
part that wouldn't have existedwithout that intense feedback
and it really kind of has becometheir part at that point
Sometimes.
And then other artists are likenah, I don't like that, try
something else.
Molly Miller (16:28):
Yeah, I mean, I feel like when you're recording
for other people, you have to beso malleable and I don't know.
It's like almost telepathic,because everyone like like
that's, I feel like what youknow, what Joe's saying is like,
uh, every artist is sodifferent.
Sometimes, like I remember,it's like I want this to sound
(16:49):
like an alien came down fromspace and you have to understand
what that means.
Or some people will like singyou an exact part, or yeah, and
interpreting what the personwants is a whole other skill set
.
Joe Gore (17:04):
I agree with Molly.
Nick Grizzle (17:08):
That should be the name of this episode.
Joe Gore (17:12):
Molly talks Joe nods.
Molly Miller (17:14):
Oh my God, I feel like I'm just agreeing with you
too.
Nick Grizzle (17:17):
Well, last mental preparation question how do you
guys, or have you everexperienced red light fever or
jitters before recording?
Molly Miller (17:25):
Yeah, I mean, a couple of times come to mind,
and for me sometimes it's random, you don't always know.
The last time I had thatexperience was on that session I
was talking about.
That was the last time I had it, and I just my brain couldn't
work because I felt like it waslike I was so shocked and like
(17:45):
and just like, oh my God, andlike then I was kind of freaking
out and typically I feel likethat, that's, that was a weird
one.
That was the last one, andbefore I could think, I was
doing a demo for an acousticcompany and I just got nervous,
and this was a couple of yearsago.
I find, though, things likefirst just doing them, like the
more you do recordings, like theless scary it is, and the other
(18:08):
thing is feeling reallyprepared.
I feel like that is the remedyfor me for everything.
Recording live sessions, likewhatever it is, solo working for
an artist, is feeling like Iknow the material well and like
cause.
Then it's not scary.
You know, you have this likecalmness about you and I I feel
like so much of performing wellis, and I feel like so much of
(18:30):
performing well is the mentalstate, because that allows you
to have clear thinking, which isthen like you're more connected
to your instrument and yourselfand your ideas.
You can be present when you'renot thinking oh my God, what's
the next chord?
Oh God, I should have practicedthat more, like that's the most
distracting thing.
Elton Bradman (18:52):
So can you break down a little bit of your
process?
As you go into a session, areyou shedding the material in all
12 keys and trying differentinstruments and making sure your
strings are fresh and like on areally basic logistical level,
how do you know what's your prep?
Molly Miller (19:03):
Yeah, I mean I think, knowing the music well,
and I recorded and listened backto myself to make sure I like
how it sounds even just a littlevoice memo and it is almost
like a little, it does addpressure.
If it's a piece like onecohesive piece, I'll sometimes
perform it for other people,depending what it is.
I remember on the Taylorsession I was nervous there were
(19:23):
solo guitar arrangements that Ihad to get in one cut that were
pretty intricate.
Joe Gore (19:29):
That's intense, that's intense.
That's about as intense as itgets.
Molly Miller (19:33):
Yeah, solo guitar chord, melody pieces that people
know the melody for, and I hadreally made intricate
arrangements so that I'd playfor other people.
That's part of it too Recordedmyself listening back a bunch,
so things like that.
And then, yeah, if it's like asession for someone else not
necessarily like doing it in all12 keys, but having multiple
(19:55):
ideas, I'd say, and also justlike feeling good, like getting,
it's like basic things that Ithink are just like life, things
like getting a good night'ssleep.
For me, maybe, it's like goingon a jog in the morning and
making sure I have I'm like nothungry, you know.
It's like all these things thatare just life, things that I
think are so important Sleep,eat, exercise, practice your
(20:18):
guitar and then you're going tobe cool.
That's a T-shirt, that's aT-shirt, yeah.
Joe Gore (20:27):
I'm not sure what my take on red light fear is,
because I'm generally prettyfearless, or so I used to think,
and just a lot of times thatpressure brought out the best.
It brought out the focus andthe intensity.
But I don't know anymore,because I'm 65 years old now,
(20:51):
and earlier this year I had myfirst experience playing a
concerto as a soloist in frontof a large major orchestra, and
I was a complete wreck.
My friends had to comfort me Iwas sleeping poorly.
Had to comfort me I wassleeping poorly.
(21:13):
I got shingles after thesession, even though I'd had the
vaccine and I, you know, I justhad like the most.
In that particular context Ihad like stage fright like I'd
never had before.
So I used to brag about beingfearless, but now I know the
truth is I'm a wuss.
Molly Miller (21:26):
No, but I think that in my experience I mean you
have, you've done it more thanme but like it sneaks up in
(21:51):
weird times, like I rememberdoing.
I was doing an acoustic sessionwith just a vocalist, me and
her.
It was a little live thing likeplaying open chords and
strumming and I don't know whathappened, and that was the one
that freaked me out, that I gotnervous in a moment that didn't
make any sense to be nervous.
Um, yeah, because most of thetime, like I don't feel like I
have struggled with nerves, butfor the most part I'm pretty
good about it and I think it'slike the more you do something
correct or like you don't freakout, the more you understand
like, oh, this is just, I can dothis.
And I do agree with Joe whereit's like the adrenaline of
(22:11):
something I think helps andmakes you present.
Like I always say, I like to bea little scared going on stage
and not scared maybe is theright word, but a little just
like on my toes, because I dothink when you're like I have to
be present, I can't be thinkingabout other things.
Like it makes you be, it makesyou better, like that little bit
of adrenaline.
(22:31):
But it can go the other way,which is the, the red light
freak out, um, which sometimessneaks up in funny moments that
always I'm like what, yeah, butthen I'd say I don't know, like
stop breathe, do something, Idon't know this is a tricky
thing to discuss because itdeals with the border between
(22:52):
humility and pride.
Joe Gore (22:54):
I have a lot of friends who are famous
guitarists lots more famous andsuccessful than I am or ever
will be and even then there'salways this kind of putting down
your own playing or makingthese jokes about I'm a guitar
polisher, not a guitar playerand it's this kind of autopilot
modesty.
(23:15):
That's really kind of bogus andI think in a lot of ways, you
know you will never learn if youdon't have a certain degree of
humility.
But I also think that at acertain point you kind of do
have to love your own playing,or believe that you have not,
that you love your own playing,or believe that you have not,
that you're always right, butbelieve that you have something
to say and like it and andbelieve with some degree of
(23:38):
conviction that you have thepotential to add something
really meaningful to a recording.
And the more and moreexperience you get, the more
instances you can look back onwhere you, where you did manage
to do that and the ones whereyou didn't.
So I'm not suggesting a sort ofbullheaded pride, but just nix
the self-abasement and if you'redoing it, presumably you've got
(24:02):
something to say, and it's nota question of your technique or
whatever, it's just believingthat you have a voice that, if
you're lucky, will be the rightvoice for the occasion.
Molly Miller (24:11):
I love that.
Actually, like a week or twoago we were interlock in playing
and we were had a bunch of like.
There was a songwriting classthere and Jason said this thing
that was like struck me talkingabout.
So he's like at a certainplease, like I'm my favorite
songwriter, you know and itwasn't like he's not an
egotistical guy, but he was justlike saying this thing and I
(24:33):
was like I kind of love that,like you should be your favorite
guitar player not like in alike an egotistical way, but you
should like what joe's saying,like feel like you have
something to say.
And like like the way you sound,love the way you sound.
It's like and even feeling,saying that out loud.
Like feels like god forbid.
You say I love my guitarplaying.
It's like you're not supposedto, but I don't know.
We dedicate our life to thisthing.
(24:54):
We should value what we do.
Nick Grizzle (24:57):
Yeah, there's a difference between saying I'm
the best at something and sayingI love what I do.
I love the art that I make.
Joe Gore (25:05):
Returning to something Ben asked a while ago about
basic preparations.
It's a really good question butit's answered pretty simply.
I mean, you know, be healthy Ifyou have an opportunity to
study the music.
Study the music, you know.
Bring paper or an iPad andsomething to write on and take
notes.
Bring whatever tools you mighthave in your toolbox.
(25:29):
Like I do a lot of acoustic Eboplaying and you know I wouldn't
go to an acoustic sessionwithout an Ebo, for example, but
that stuff is pretty.
Most of that stuff is horsesense, though there's one that's
really controversial.
I think it's less controversialamong people who do it for a
living.
But you'd mentioned freshstrings, and boy, that's one of
(25:50):
the great.
That's like talking abouttonewood.
That's one of the great.
That's like talking about tonewood.
It's like one of the mostdivisive topics you can bring up
in guitar and guitar recordingand personally I'm an advocate
on really comfortably stretchedout, worn in strings and that
generally fresh stringsintroduce more problems than
they address.
But you'll find people fargreater than me who will walk in
(26:12):
and wouldn't do a sessionwithout a fresh set of strings.
Molly Miller (26:16):
I think for electric fresh strings and
acoustic not fresh strings, butthe balance.
Like I, I hate crusty strings.
I can't touch a guitar that hascrusty strings on.
Joe Gore (26:27):
It is my personal opinion especially if it's
somebody else's crust.
Molly Miller (26:32):
I know.
And one more note on prep,because I like now I'm thinking
I have some sessions I've donewith, like scary pockets or
stories, like, and all thatstuff which actually is very
acoustic based.
Um, they, you go in and youhave the song, but you you put
the song like you flip the songupside down and you don't know
what key it's going to be andyou don't know the arrangement.
And pompo moves too.
(26:53):
I've done that with where it'slike, so you can't really
prepare to it in a degree,because sometimes we'll be like
let's just change a song and dothis song, and that's where I
think trusting that you'resupposed to be there gives you
that clarity of thought so youcan be present and use all the
skills that you have.
It's not like your first day onthe job.
Joe Gore (27:14):
And for acoustic strings.
Well, I kind of you know, whenI was younger and I'd go on tour
, I would have fresh stringsevery night and it felt gross if
I didn't.
And, um, I really changed thatattitude because it's it's
really wasteful and part of itis just as simple as um, you
know, when I was younger Iplayed with a lot of musicians
(27:35):
from West Africa and they can'tchange strings every night.
They've got to make a set ofstrings last for years and when
the string breaks they tie aknot in it, and when they can't
tie any more knots in it, theyunwind a bicycle cable and use
those wires as strings.
It's just such a first worldthing to you know, to burn
through strings.
So I've moved much.
(27:55):
You know.
I've shifted away from changinga lot.
I use really high-end strings,I use expensive strings, but I
really try to make them last along time.
As far as going into a session,too much high on acoustic, too
much high-end on acoustic, tendsto be a bigger problem than the
(28:16):
opposite.
And you know, depending on yourtechnique or whether you're
playing with your fingers orwith your picks, the new strings
can introduce a lot more stringnoise.
For me, if I had a.
Really, if I had a session thatwas really important for me
coming up and I really wanted myinstrument to sound its best, I
would probably change thestrings maybe 48 hours before
(28:37):
the session and do a lot of andreally play them in you know,
put you know four, six hours onthem, and to me that's kind of
like when it when it's when thestring is at its peak, and I'm
kind of similar with electricguitar, but I'm weird in that in
that for me acoustic guitar andelectric guitar are not
different instruments.
Molly Miller (28:54):
I understand that.
Actually, I feel like I oftensay that that I don't like that
we think of them so differently.
But just, I think I have athing with changing strings
before, like a recording sessionor a big show.
I like to change them the daybefore, maybe two days before,
(29:17):
and I just have my whole ritualaround it.
Joe Gore (29:21):
Acoustic less because sometimes you'll get the really
like high tones that I feel likeyou don't want.
I was just going to say Ihonestly don't know if this is a
function of taste or a functionof age, but you know, the older
I get, the darker I want allthe acoustic guitars to sound.
I feel really, really alienatedfrom you know super sizzly
acoustic and I want to hear alot of body warmth and I want to
(29:42):
hear the fundamentals of thenote really really strongly and
I need less of the candy shimmerand I tend to seek out strings
that are particularly dark anddon't have many overtones.
And it's not as crazy as itsounds, because the strings
(30:06):
affect each other and if strings, if your low strings, are
putting out a ridiculous amountof high overtones or I'm gonna
say ridiculous, I mean the kindof overtones you get by putting
on a your normal mainstream setof acoustic guitar strings, the
high notes that are coming offthe low strings are inevitably
(30:28):
going to have phasecancellations and dulling out
with the higher strings and themore the low strings can just
focus on the fundamental andleave the field clear for the
strings with higher pitches.
The ultimate example of that andexcuse me, I'm drifting a
little away from acoustic for amoment is the famous Beetle
Bird's 12-string sound.
How did they make it jangle somuch?
(30:49):
They make it jangle so muchbecause they were using flat
wound strings and the lowstrings don't have a lot of
overtones on them and the octavestrings have all the room in
the world to sing.
And if you try it back andforth, you know, and trying to
play, you know Ticket to Ride orMr Tambourine man, with or
without the flat wound strings,it's like a light switch is on.
(31:11):
Oh, that's the jangle and it'snot darker.
Some strings are darker to letother strings glisten more.
Elton Bradman (31:20):
I was going to ask if both of you have done
enough recording now that youprobably have a preferred signal
chain Maybe not down to thedetails, but for example you
could say you know, I've hadgood results with this mic, I've
had good results with this DIDo you have preferences at this
point and how flexible are youabout those?
Joe Gore (31:38):
If it's, if I'm going with a producer who I know and
trust and respect, or who'spaying me, I tend to let them do
their job.
You know, if Chad Blake issetting up microphones, I'm not
going to say anything about howhe wants to set up his
microphones, but on the otherhand, you often go into a
session a lot and people mightneed a little pointers, or they
(31:59):
might set up a mic and you kindof subtly adjust it to where you
think it sounds right.
You mentioned specificallysignal chain and I think there's
things that are generally trueand also for those of us who are
working in home studios, evenif we own some nice gear, it's
not like a mic locker at astudio, I mean, unless we're
(32:20):
really rich.
And so you know you probablydon't have that many choices and
you probably get veryaccustomed to using and very
good at using.
You know particular tools.
The conventional wisdom is thatsmall diaphragm condenser mics
are, you know, the number onechoice for acoustic guitars,
except there's 10,000 exampleswhere that isn't true.
(32:41):
It tends to be my default.
I'm going to refer back to whatI said earlier about the context
mattering, because the musicalstyle can have a lot to do with
what single recording choicesyou make.
That's especially true inwhether or not to record in
stereo.
And there are a lot of timeswhere people think they need
(33:03):
stereo and mono is the bestsolution.
And there's times where youreally do want that stereo and
there's times where you cancreate a convincing stereo image
out of a mono single.
And again, there's a millionexceptions.
But to speak in the mostgeneralized averaging out of
factors terms, the moreinstruments are on the track,
(33:26):
the more likely I am to use mono.
If it's a pop track, you know,like something with a consistent
beat that's meant to sound kindof popular, I do mono but might
double the part left and rightin stereo, I do mono but might
double the part left and rightin stereo.
If it's a solo acousticrecording, you tend to think you
want stereo and I tend to useit.
(33:47):
But boy, it's a whole world ofdecisions about.
You know, are you going to doit with XY or are you going to
do it with mid-side rejection?
When working in stereo, I'vebecome a real fan of ORTF,
miciking Technique, and theacronyms are it's a French thing
, so it's Office deRadiodiffusion Television
Française.
(34:08):
Wow, it's something that Frenchradio engineers came up with
and talking about.
You know there's probably threemost common stereo miking
techniques.
You know one is the setup I'musing my hands to gesture on an
audio podcast.
That's brilliant, let me put.
Let me put, we'll describe.
You know, one method is tosimply set up two microphones at
(34:31):
some distance apart, kind ofangled in towards the guitar.
There's a sometimes popularmethod called mid-side rejection
, where you use two micsliterally stacked on top of each
other like a little microphonesandwich, and you do phasing
tricks to create a stereo image.
And ORTF works a lot like abinaural head microphone.
(34:54):
In ORTF you have two mics,maybe three, four inches apart,
both angling in, and I find thatthat gives a really natural,
beautiful stereo image.
It's really easy to get toostereo on your acoustic guitars
(35:16):
and there starts to be no centerthere anymore.
And you know, if I want stereo,ortf always seems to work.
Um, it tends not to have phaseproblems when you um, mash it
down to mono.
Um, you can.
You can exaggerate or diminishthe perceived width with with
plugins.
Or you know, audio processingtools and, uh, with ortf you
(35:39):
usually use a specialized micclip where the mic positions are
exact.
You can't adjust their anglesbecause they sort of calculate
what the right angle is, and I'ma big fan of that technique,
but big fan of mono too, man.
Molly Miller (35:54):
Yeah, I mean, I agree with Joe, it just like
depends what it is.
Is it like you're layering fiveacoustic guitars on, like or
what you know, all thesedifferent timbres and different
parts and octaves and whatnot?
So verse, is it solo guitar,you know?
And I feel like differentthings are called for each.
And also, yeah, home or at astudio.
(36:19):
I mean I have a limitedcollection of mics, so I have, I
use like the limited mics Ihave, but it works and I, you
know I've never had complaintsabout my acoustic recording jobs
.
But yeah, definitely go.
If it's like something I would,something more high end, I
would go to a studio.
Joe Gore (36:40):
But also, you know, to get.
Well, it's the.
You know, one of the tragediesabout recording acoustic guitar
is that, unlike on electricguitar, you can get one of the
cheapest mics ever made andsound great.
A lot of classic recordingswere made on a Shure SM57, which
is like an $80 microphone.
It's not the same on acoustic.
If you use a cheaper dynamic micon acoustic you might get a
(37:05):
sound that's cool, you might getan attitude that's right for
the track.
Uh, you know, sometimes ahorrible sound is the right
sound, like, very famously, thekeith richards acoustic tone on
street fighting man which waslike uh, overdriving the preamp
in a 1960s cassette recorder.
So it kind of sounds like anelectric guitar.
So lo-fi makes sense.
But if you're going, if you'regoing for fi, you can, you, can,
you can.
You can do it on a budget.
(37:26):
You can.
You know the I I inherited somebeautiful Schepps microphones
which are a very high end smalldiaphragm condenser that
probably costs a little overthree grand a pair.
I just I was given them by myfather-in-law who was used to be
a very talented amateurrecordist.
(37:47):
And but if you buy, you knowthe Neumann knockoffs like and
they kind of have a lot of themare copied after the Neumann
small diaphragm microphone andyou're probably getting 80 of
the performance for like 20 ofthe price.
You can make you know, you can,you know, basically a lot of
(38:08):
them are just chinese or russianclones of german and austrian
mics and they often work reallywell.
You can, you know, you can makehi-fi good acoustic recording
sounds with with a pair of bluesmall diaphragm condensers which
probably cost $250 or $300.
Molly Miller (38:24):
Yeah, I was going to say it really does depend on
the sound you're going for,Because sometimes my favorite
recordings are really lo-fi,like just demos that are raw.
Yeah, I use an AKG 414 oftenand I think it sounds great on
my acoustic.
Joe Gore (38:42):
Well, that's considered a very high-end
studio microphone, but the one Ihave is like $800 or something.
Molly Miller (38:48):
You know it's not crazy.
Like you know you're talkingabout, yeah, so to me, like that
was my gift to myself and I waslike now that I'm going to be a
serious recorder.
Joe Gore (38:59):
Another thought about.
I mentioned in passing doubling.
You know, like doubling monoguitars on a on a pop, you know,
for a pop sound and Iexperienced something a few
years ago that really opened myeyes, which is when I would do
the doubling.
I would really try to make itas exact as possible, really
exact.
And then the tiny littleimperfections where it isn't
(39:23):
exactly exact give you thislovely left-right animation in
the recording where one chord orone note might stand out and it
just sort of percolates.
But I always focused on makingit really tight and one of the
best techniques for keeping ittight if you're playing with the
ensemble is follow the hi-hat,because a lot of time the
drummer's hi-hat and the guitarare doing very, very similar
(39:45):
things and there's a great,there's a great potential for um
collision of groove.
So, having said all that aboutprecision, um, you know, when we
, when we started getting tohear all those classic rock
recordings split out intoindividual tracks, there are so
many revelations about thingsyou thought people were doing
(40:07):
and you were wrong, and one ofthe most dramatic for me is
hearing Johnny Marr tracks withthe Smiths split into individual
guitars and a lot of trackswhere you might not even know
there's an acoustic.
Lo and behold, there's fouracoustic guitars underneath
there and his and his techniquewas was not precision, they're
(40:28):
sloppy as hell, but that's youknow.
When he puts together you know10, 12, 16 tracks of guitars
that that aren't exactly in time.
It kind of makes this reallycompelling smear.
And a particularly notableexample is the very first
Smith's single, this Charmingman, which people think of as an
(40:49):
electric guitar song.
It's got a prominent electricguitar riff and I think most
people, if asked to guess, wouldsay how many guitars are you
hearing on this track?
And oh, you know, maybe doubledelectric, maybe a few little
stabs here and there.
I'm going to guess threeguitars and there's 16 guitars
on that song and you wouldn'tknow it unless you listen for it
.
I was flabbergasted when Iinterviewed him many years ago
(41:12):
and he told me that that there's16 tracks of guitars on that
song and lots of them areacoustic.
Smith's songs are packed withsloppy mixed-in-back acoustic
guitars and it just makes thisglorious ringing jumble.
That was such a unique voiceand it really made me question
my dedication to maximumprecision on doing doubles.
Nick Grizzle (41:36):
That's the end of Part 1.
The conversation continues onour Patreon page.
Get access for $1 at patreoncomslash acoustic guitar plus.
The Acoustic Guitar Podcast isbrought to you by the team at
Acoustic Guitar Magazine.
I'm your host, Nick Grizzle,joined for this episode by Elton
Bradman.
The Acoustic Guitar Podcast isdirected and edited by Joey
(41:58):
Lusterman.
Tanya Gonzalez is our producer.
Executive producers are LizzyLusterman and Stephanie Campos.
Our theme song was composed byAdam Perlmutter and performed
for this episode by Joe Gore.
If you enjoy this podcast andwant to support us, please visit
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(42:18):
find the link in the show notesfor this episode.
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We thank you so much for yoursupport.
Thank you.
you kind of do have to love your own playing or
believe with some degree ofconviction that you have the
potential to add somethingreally meaningful to a recording
.
Nick Grizzle (00:06):
Thank, you, welcome to the Acoustic Guitar
(01:28):
Podcast.
I'm your host, nick Grizzle,and in today's episode I'm
joined by co-host Elton Bradmanand two special guests, joe Gore
and Molly Miller.
The four of us had a lively andfascinating conversation, all
about recording acoustic guitars.
Both Gore and Miller areseasoned studio pros who have
been in sessions with majorartists.
(01:48):
For Gore, that includesmusicians like Tracy Chapman,
tom Waits, pj Harvey and AmyMann, and Miller has been in the
studio with Jason Mraz and herown Molly Miller Guitar Trio,
and she's a professor of studioguitar at USC.
Suffice to say, they have a lotof knowledge and we're very
willing to share it.
Before we dive in, I'd like tothank G7th, the capo company,
(02:12):
for sponsoring this episode.
The G7th Performance 3 guitarcapo is the culmination of years
of designing, tweaking andimproving, but, most importantly
, listening to guitarists andtheir views on what a capo
should do.
Now, coupling their uniquetension control system with the
groundbreaking Adaptive RadiusTechnology or ART string pad
(02:33):
mechanism, gives a near-perfectcapo experience complete control
over the pressure placed onyour strings and phenomenal
tuning stability.
For more information about thePerformance 3 and other ranges
of G7 Capos, go to g7.com Now,without further ado.
Enjoy our Get Recording Readyepisode.
Our guests begin theconversation detailing their
(02:56):
acoustic recording bona fides.
Molly Miller (02:58):
So I've done some acoustic recording at home, but
I also have been in the studiofor different things.
I feel like the most notableacoustic thing with my face on
on it is I did some work withwith Taylor for some uh,
acoustic um renditions of Disneysongs, that um, like, yeah, I
did it.
(03:19):
So I did a few of those.
But, yeah, just working withdifferent artists recording and
then, um, I'll record from home,sometimes acoustic as well.
Joe Gore (03:26):
Tom Waits, tracy Chapman, pj Harvey and I have a
lot of experience recording youknow, normal sounding acoustic
(03:53):
guitars and not so normalsounding ones, cool.
Nick Grizzle (03:59):
So we thought about maybe breaking this up
into three sections before,during and after recording.
And let's start with gettingmentally prepared, because
before you even touch the guitar, you have to be in the right
headspace, right?
Joe Gore (04:07):
I'm going to suggest even backing up a stage more in
generality.
And you know, the big questionis for whom are you recording?
Who's in charge?
Are you the artist andrecordist and producer?
Are you trying to please otherpeople?
Are you the artist andrecordist and producer?
Are you trying to please otherpeople?
There's just so many possibleways that you could go into a
(04:32):
recording session.
If it's a recording sessionwith an artist, it might involve
doing a lot of research intheir previous music if you
haven't heard it, and seeingwhat sort of things they've done
in the past.
If you're recording by yourselfin your home studio, it's a
whole different world.
You can suck as much as youlike and take as long to get it
right, and if the clock'sticking, it's got to sound
pretty good on the first take.
(04:53):
So the mental preparationsmight be very different
depending on the context of therecording.
Yeah, I think that's a reallygood point.
Molly Miller (05:02):
I personally, I think, think, prefer having
someone else being the engineerbecause, you know, just talking
about the mental state, I thinkit's one less thing to be
distracted by um and to beconsumed by is like making sure
all that element, all thoseelements, because it really is
two jobs and so often now Ithink you know we are doing
(05:22):
multiple jobs at once, um, butit's nice just to be the
guitarist and, yeah, checkingout the artist, who is it for Um
, and I feel like also havingoptions.
Sometimes I like to go into asession if it's special I mean
mine or not mine, mine more.
So I know what I want, you know.
But if it's someone else's,having options so you're not
(05:43):
married to one thing becauseit's not what you want per se,
it's not your vision, it'ssomeone else's vision that
you're helping create andhopefully you know your voice is
still in it.
Joe Gore (05:51):
Molly, I could not agree with that more.
That's very wise.
I do hate being my own engineer, but I am almost all the time.
But it's grim reality.
But in terms of the artist, Ithink you hit on something
really key, which is, if I'mworking with an artist and don't
(06:12):
know exactly what to expect butsay, maybe I've heard some
demos or something, I'll go inwith a stack full of ideas.
But I find that the harder partisn't concocting ideas as much
as it is responding in themoment and sometimes the idea
that you know is genius, youknow that producer is saying
let's try something else.
(06:32):
I've blown it a few times bytrying to explain the genius of
my idea.
So it's like having a lot ofideas on tap but then being able
to just throw it all out thewindow and just dive in.
Like having a lot of ideas ontap but then being able to just
throw it all out the window andjust dive in.
I find that a very challengingmental leap to make and it's
taken me a long time to learnhow to do it.
Molly Miller (06:56):
Yeah, I had a challenging situation recently
where I was playing for anartist and she kind of gave me.
She was like you, do you?
She had heard me recording adifferent thing and she was like
I love what you do like come inand do your thing, and like she
had heard me recording adifferent thing and she just she
was like I love what you do,like come in and do your thing
and you know, I, we, it was likea live recording so an amazing
bassist and drummer as well, andthe three of us were just
recording live and I was like,yeah, I crushed it.
You know, like perfect.
And the engineer walks out andthe producers are like great,
(07:18):
you know, all of you guys soundsounds perfect.
And she's like, yeah, no, Idon't like what you're doing,
molly.
And I was like what you don'tlike me?
And like she had bad demo-itisand she was not a guitar player
and played on it, so she had allthese things that were out of
time and not things thatdecisions I would ever make that
were like very, yeah, likeagain.
(07:39):
But it was her song and so itwas this.
Like it was so challengingbecause she'd I play something.
She'd be like how do I put this?
Play it more out of time, canyou not play it?
Well?
And it was just it was that wasone of the more challenging
recording situations I I havehad a demo, demo.
Joe Gore (07:56):
Itis is a real, is a real thing and as bad as it is
in a music session.
It's 10 times worse when you'reworking on a soundtrack,
because then they will havewatched their film 2,000 times
in preparation and they cancompletely say this is just temp
, do you, do you?
And what they want is the tempscore.
I know, and if I were afilmmaker I'd probably fall prey
(08:17):
to that too.
But yeah, I hear you and that'sbeen really hard sometimes.
Molly Miller (08:24):
Yeah, yeah, it's like really being egoless, which
is an impossible thing to dosometimes, as you know, what we
do is so closely attached to ouregos, but it is.
That's like.
That's the mental part of ittoo.
Joe Gore (08:39):
Well, I look, I look at fellow musicians, I'm kind of
focusing on the studio worldand I realize we should maybe be
addressing more home recordists, like most of us are.
But, um, when I've done studiosessions with session players
who are far more successful andget hired a lot more than I do,
(08:59):
it's exact.
It is truly the egolessness.
Um, I've never been able todefeat my egotism, but I've
certainly been humbled a lotover the years.
Nick Grizzle (09:11):
Yeah, so when you're going into the studio or
when you're recording your ownstuff, do you have a sound in
mind ahead of time, and how doyou deal with that changing?
Molly Miller (09:20):
You know, if someone nicks it, I let it go,
because especially, yeah, yeahto me that that's the, that's
when you're being a, a good um,contributor to a record or so
you know, like that's whenyou're being a good participant
is understanding, like it's notyou.
You know, um, yeah, whoever'svision it is, I think listening
(09:43):
to them is super important so I,I like all of things.
And also, like you know I knowit's not recording per se, but
last, just this last week, westarted a new song.
I'm on tour right now withJason Mraz and we were working
with something a new song, orlike like reviving an old song,
and I've been attached to someof the things I had done before
and the piano player was likeMolly, I don't think you should
(10:04):
do, I think this other thingwould help fill out the sound
more, and I was like I reallylove what I was doing before.
And then, like I listened backto the recording, I was like
he's right, so it's like notabout me playing these like cool
little, like trill lines that Ilove, but instead doing power
chords, because that's what thesong was called for.
And yeah, and I find it'seasiest to do that, you know, in
(10:25):
a situation where it's not justone thing.
But, even in general, I actuallyI think if someone says no, I
don't struggle with holding onto it.
If I, if I, you know, yeah,you're not the only voice in the
room.
Joe Gore (10:38):
I see, I see a pattern to this interview which is I'm
just basically going to sayeverything Molly said is
brilliant.
Which is I'm just basicallygoing to say everything Molly
said is brilliant.
We're kind of, I think, playingfrom an overlapping set of
experiences.
But to bring it back to homerecording, let's say you're
(10:58):
working on a piece and recordingit at home and you're doing it
all and you have no one toanswer to.
To echo Molly, a lot of timesit's playback.
A lot of times I don't recordthat stuff as much as I should,
but I'm starting to getting inthe habit, even if it's just
recording on a voice memo thing.
I have a voice memo recorder onmy wristwatch and I'm just
(11:20):
trying to get in the habit of,you know, hitting it when things
are going and then I come backand you know, listen at the end
of the day or first thing thenext day, and things that you
can have a lot of anguish oversometimes just become crystal
clear, like I was trying so hardand that just doesn't work.
Back to the drawing board orvice versa.
(11:41):
Something you might have playedthat you just thought was a
mediocre idea in passing mightreally hold up later.
It's so hard to maintainlistening objectivity over the
course of a recording session ormixing session.
Our ears are a moving target.
We literally um, what we, whatwe hear, literally differs, um,
(12:02):
you know, and after after anhour of playing music and after
two hours of playing music it'sprobably exaggerated in my case
because I'm a lot older thanMolly, but our ears do fluctuate
and having you know, some kindof objective measure, even as,
just like a crappy little voicememo recording, can shine a
(12:23):
light where there was previouslynothing but darkness I love
that line our ears are a movingtarget.
Molly Miller (12:31):
I have never heard that and it's so true.
You know, like one minute youthink something's amazing and
you listen back a day later, orwhatever.
You're like what was I thinking?
Joe Gore (12:39):
a lot of, a lot of that.
A lot of that I developed notfrom you know sessions or
recording, but from writing gearreviews for um other guitar
magazines since the dawn of thetime.
And especially when you sayanything negative about a
product, you got to back it upwith facts you know audio or
audio analysis charts orsomething like that, and also
(13:03):
not to pimp my stuff too much.
But I have a small guitar pedalcompany and doing that work of
sitting at the bench for an hourgoing back and forth between
two different transistors, youjust sometimes can't decide in
one session because what you'rehearing when you started is
literally not what you heardwhen you began.
Elton Bradman (13:23):
It's amazing, it's like you know what you guys
are talking about.
You began.
It's amazing.
It's like you know what youguys are talking about is
reminding me of producingoneself, like that's like a
whole nother skill set, of ofbeing the artist and being the
producer and going back andforth between those things yeah,
you know, I started doing thisthing some years back and I feel
like in like grad school orcollege, trying to listen back
(13:44):
to recordings of myself as ifit's not me, because it's
actually.
Molly Miller (13:49):
It's a weird thing .
You listen differently, we areso much more judgmental of
ourselves and I find if I'mlistening to another guitar
player, I'm not picking out thewrong note, but instead
listening to it as a whole.
Elton Bradman (14:02):
So when I listen back to myself, I really try to
do that and I don't alwaysaccomplish it, but yeah, you
know, I think of all those, allthe great, great session players
who come out with solo albumsand it's almost like for me as a
listener and music journalistand as a bass player, there's
like a certain sub genre of soloalbums by session musicians and
(14:27):
I'm constantly thinking hmm,okay.
So they've been in this worldand touched by these things and
now they decided hell, no, on mysolo recording.
I'm going to do completely theopposite, or it sounds like what
they've spent time recording.
You know what I mean.
Joe Gore (14:43):
So I was just wondering.
There are probably a lot ofgood albums in that category,
but they're not coming to mindright away.
But all the bad ones sure are inthat category, but they're not
coming to mind right away, butall the bad ones sure are.
I think often it's as simple ashere's all the wanking they
wouldn't let me do on thesession or they wouldn't let me
do on stage.
Now I'm just going to go fullon and just follow my vision,
(15:07):
and sometimes the vision isreally vulgar and unattractive.
Like certain session, playersbenefit from working with great
artists and great producers toshape the ideas and, to varying
degrees, the player relationshipwith the artist and or the
producer who may or may not betwo people or who may or may not
(15:27):
share the same agenda is socase by case and sometimes,
sometimes, um, you're, you know,you're getting your direction
shaped a lot.
Um, when I work with tom waits,he's astonishing at that because
he never gives a specificmusical direction.
(15:49):
He never says anything likeplay it up an octave or whatever
, but he's standing in front ofyou like literally twitching,
he's very hyperkinetic and it'salmost like he's shaping the
clay with his hands and saying alittle more of this, a little
more of that, a little more ofthat, a little more of that and
in the end he hasn't suggested anote and I guess technically I
(16:13):
quote made up the part buthasn't suggested a note.
And I guess technically I quotemade up the part, but it's a
part that wouldn't have existedwithout that intense feedback
and it really kind of has becometheir part at that point
Sometimes.
And then other artists are likenah, I don't like that, try
something else.
Molly Miller (16:28):
Yeah, I mean, I feel like when you're recording
for other people, you have to beso malleable and I don't know.
It's like almost telepathic,because everyone like like
that's, I feel like what youknow, what Joe's saying is like,
uh, every artist is sodifferent.
Sometimes, like I remember,it's like I want this to sound
(16:49):
like an alien came down fromspace and you have to understand
what that means.
Or some people will like singyou an exact part, or yeah, and
interpreting what the personwants is a whole other skill set
.
Joe Gore (17:04):
I agree with Molly.
Nick Grizzle (17:08):
That should be the name of this episode.
Joe Gore (17:12):
Molly talks Joe nods.
Molly Miller (17:14):
Oh my God, I feel like I'm just agreeing with you
too.
Nick Grizzle (17:17):
Well, last mental preparation question how do you
guys, or have you everexperienced red light fever or
jitters before recording?
Molly Miller (17:25):
Yeah, I mean, a couple of times come to mind,
and for me sometimes it's random, you don't always know.
The last time I had thatexperience was on that session I
was talking about.
That was the last time I had it, and I just my brain couldn't
work because I felt like it waslike I was so shocked and like
(17:45):
and just like, oh my God, andlike then I was kind of freaking
out and typically I feel likethat, that's, that was a weird
one.
That was the last one, andbefore I could think, I was
doing a demo for an acousticcompany and I just got nervous,
and this was a couple of yearsago.
I find, though, things likefirst just doing them, like the
more you do recordings, like theless scary it is, and the other
(18:08):
thing is feeling reallyprepared.
I feel like that is the remedyfor me for everything.
Recording live sessions, likewhatever it is, solo working for
an artist, is feeling like Iknow the material well and like
cause.
Then it's not scary.
You know, you have this likecalmness about you and I I feel
like so much of performing wellis, and I feel like so much of
(18:30):
performing well is the mentalstate, because that allows you
to have clear thinking, which isthen like you're more connected
to your instrument and yourselfand your ideas.
You can be present when you'renot thinking oh my God, what's
the next chord?
Oh God, I should have practicedthat more, like that's the most
distracting thing.
Elton Bradman (18:52):
So can you break down a little bit of your
process?
As you go into a session, areyou shedding the material in all
12 keys and trying differentinstruments and making sure your
strings are fresh and like on areally basic logistical level,
how do you know what's your prep?
Molly Miller (19:03):
Yeah, I mean I think, knowing the music well,
and I recorded and listened backto myself to make sure I like
how it sounds even just a littlevoice memo and it is almost
like a little, it does addpressure.
If it's a piece like onecohesive piece, I'll sometimes
perform it for other people,depending what it is.
I remember on the Taylorsession I was nervous there were
(19:23):
solo guitar arrangements that Ihad to get in one cut that were
pretty intricate.
Joe Gore (19:29):
That's intense, that's intense.
That's about as intense as itgets.
Molly Miller (19:33):
Yeah, solo guitar chord, melody pieces that people
know the melody for, and I hadreally made intricate
arrangements so that I'd playfor other people.
That's part of it too Recordedmyself listening back a bunch,
so things like that.
And then, yeah, if it's like asession for someone else not
necessarily like doing it in all12 keys, but having multiple
(19:55):
ideas, I'd say, and also justlike feeling good, like getting,
it's like basic things that Ithink are just like life, things
like getting a good night'ssleep.
For me, maybe, it's like goingon a jog in the morning and
making sure I have I'm like nothungry, you know.
It's like all these things thatare just life, things that I
think are so important Sleep,eat, exercise, practice your
(20:18):
guitar and then you're going tobe cool.
That's a T-shirt, that's aT-shirt, yeah.
Joe Gore (20:27):
I'm not sure what my take on red light fear is,
because I'm generally prettyfearless, or so I used to think,
and just a lot of times thatpressure brought out the best.
It brought out the focus andthe intensity.
But I don't know anymore,because I'm 65 years old now,
(20:51):
and earlier this year I had myfirst experience playing a
concerto as a soloist in frontof a large major orchestra, and
I was a complete wreck.
My friends had to comfort me Iwas sleeping poorly.
Had to comfort me I wassleeping poorly.
(21:13):
I got shingles after thesession, even though I'd had the
vaccine and I, you know, I justhad like the most.
In that particular context Ihad like stage fright like I'd
never had before.
So I used to brag about beingfearless, but now I know the
truth is I'm a wuss.
Molly Miller (21:26):
No, but I think that in my experience I mean you
have, you've done it more thanme but like it sneaks up in
(21:51):
weird times, like I rememberdoing.
I was doing an acoustic sessionwith just a vocalist, me and
her.
It was a little live thing likeplaying open chords and
strumming and I don't know whathappened, and that was the one
that freaked me out, that I gotnervous in a moment that didn't
make any sense to be nervous.
Um, yeah, because most of thetime, like I don't feel like I
have struggled with nerves, butfor the most part I'm pretty
good about it and I think it'slike the more you do something
correct or like you don't freakout, the more you understand
like, oh, this is just, I can dothis.
And I do agree with Joe whereit's like the adrenaline of
(22:11):
something I think helps andmakes you present.
Like I always say, I like to bea little scared going on stage
and not scared maybe is theright word, but a little just
like on my toes, because I dothink when you're like I have to
be present, I can't be thinkingabout other things.
Like it makes you be, it makesyou better, like that little bit
of adrenaline.
(22:31):
But it can go the other way,which is the, the red light
freak out, um, which sometimessneaks up in funny moments that
always I'm like what, yeah, butthen I'd say I don't know, like
stop breathe, do something, Idon't know this is a tricky
thing to discuss because itdeals with the border between
(22:52):
humility and pride.
Joe Gore (22:54):
I have a lot of friends who are famous
guitarists lots more famous andsuccessful than I am or ever
will be and even then there'salways this kind of putting down
your own playing or makingthese jokes about I'm a guitar
polisher, not a guitar playerand it's this kind of autopilot
modesty.
(23:15):
That's really kind of bogus andI think in a lot of ways, you
know you will never learn if youdon't have a certain degree of
humility.
But I also think that at acertain point you kind of do
have to love your own playing,or believe that you have not,
that you love your own playing,or believe that you have not,
that you're always right, butbelieve that you have something
to say and like it and andbelieve with some degree of
(23:38):
conviction that you have thepotential to add something
really meaningful to a recording.
And the more and moreexperience you get, the more
instances you can look back onwhere you, where you did manage
to do that and the ones whereyou didn't.
So I'm not suggesting a sort ofbullheaded pride, but just nix
the self-abasement and if you'redoing it, presumably you've got
(24:02):
something to say, and it's nota question of your technique or
whatever, it's just believingthat you have a voice that, if
you're lucky, will be the rightvoice for the occasion.
Molly Miller (24:11):
I love that.
Actually, like a week or twoago we were interlock in playing
and we were had a bunch of like.
There was a songwriting classthere and Jason said this thing
that was like struck me talkingabout.
So he's like at a certainplease, like I'm my favorite
songwriter, you know and itwasn't like he's not an
egotistical guy, but he was justlike saying this thing and I
(24:33):
was like I kind of love that,like you should be your favorite
guitar player not like in alike an egotistical way, but you
should like what joe's saying,like feel like you have
something to say.
And like like the way you sound,love the way you sound.
It's like and even feeling,saying that out loud.
Like feels like god forbid.
You say I love my guitarplaying.
It's like you're not supposedto, but I don't know.
We dedicate our life to thisthing.
(24:54):
We should value what we do.
Nick Grizzle (24:57):
Yeah, there's a difference between saying I'm
the best at something and sayingI love what I do.
I love the art that I make.
Joe Gore (25:05):
Returning to something Ben asked a while ago about
basic preparations.
It's a really good question butit's answered pretty simply.
I mean, you know, be healthy Ifyou have an opportunity to
study the music.
Study the music, you know.
Bring paper or an iPad andsomething to write on and take
notes.
Bring whatever tools you mighthave in your toolbox.
(25:29):
Like I do a lot of acoustic Eboplaying and you know I wouldn't
go to an acoustic sessionwithout an Ebo, for example, but
that stuff is pretty.
Most of that stuff is horsesense, though there's one that's
really controversial.
I think it's less controversialamong people who do it for a
living.
But you'd mentioned freshstrings, and boy, that's one of
(25:50):
the great.
That's like talking abouttonewood.
That's one of the great.
That's like talking about tonewood.
It's like one of the mostdivisive topics you can bring up
in guitar and guitar recordingand personally I'm an advocate
on really comfortably stretchedout, worn in strings and that
generally fresh stringsintroduce more problems than
they address.
But you'll find people fargreater than me who will walk in
(26:12):
and wouldn't do a sessionwithout a fresh set of strings.
Molly Miller (26:16):
I think for electric fresh strings and
acoustic not fresh strings, butthe balance.
Like I, I hate crusty strings.
I can't touch a guitar that hascrusty strings on.
Joe Gore (26:27):
It is my personal opinion especially if it's
somebody else's crust.
Molly Miller (26:32):
I know.
And one more note on prep,because I like now I'm thinking
I have some sessions I've donewith, like scary pockets or
stories, like, and all thatstuff which actually is very
acoustic based.
Um, they, you go in and youhave the song, but you you put
the song like you flip the songupside down and you don't know
what key it's going to be andyou don't know the arrangement.
And pompo moves too.
(26:53):
I've done that with where it'slike, so you can't really
prepare to it in a degree,because sometimes we'll be like
let's just change a song and dothis song, and that's where I
think trusting that you'resupposed to be there gives you
that clarity of thought so youcan be present and use all the
skills that you have.
It's not like your first day onthe job.
Joe Gore (27:14):
And for acoustic strings.
Well, I kind of you know, whenI was younger and I'd go on tour
, I would have fresh stringsevery night and it felt gross if
I didn't.
And, um, I really changed thatattitude because it's it's
really wasteful and part of itis just as simple as um, you
know, when I was younger Iplayed with a lot of musicians
(27:35):
from West Africa and they can'tchange strings every night.
They've got to make a set ofstrings last for years and when
the string breaks they tie aknot in it, and when they can't
tie any more knots in it, theyunwind a bicycle cable and use
those wires as strings.
It's just such a first worldthing to you know, to burn
through strings.
So I've moved much.
(27:55):
You know.
I've shifted away from changinga lot.
I use really high-end strings,I use expensive strings, but I
really try to make them last along time.
As far as going into a session,too much high on acoustic, too
much high-end on acoustic, tendsto be a bigger problem than the
(28:16):
opposite.
And you know, depending on yourtechnique or whether you're
playing with your fingers orwith your picks, the new strings
can introduce a lot more stringnoise.
For me, if I had a.
Really, if I had a session thatwas really important for me
coming up and I really wanted myinstrument to sound its best, I
would probably change thestrings maybe 48 hours before
(28:37):
the session and do a lot of andreally play them in you know,
put you know four, six hours onthem, and to me that's kind of
like when it when it's when thestring is at its peak, and I'm
kind of similar with electricguitar, but I'm weird in that in
that for me acoustic guitar andelectric guitar are not
different instruments.
Molly Miller (28:54):
I understand that.
Actually, I feel like I oftensay that that I don't like that
we think of them so differently.
But just, I think I have athing with changing strings
before, like a recording sessionor a big show.
I like to change them the daybefore, maybe two days before,
(29:17):
and I just have my whole ritualaround it.
Joe Gore (29:21):
Acoustic less because sometimes you'll get the really
like high tones that I feel likeyou don't want.
I was just going to say Ihonestly don't know if this is a
function of taste or a functionof age, but you know, the older
I get, the darker I want allthe acoustic guitars to sound.
I feel really, really alienatedfrom you know super sizzly
acoustic and I want to hear alot of body warmth and I want to
(29:42):
hear the fundamentals of thenote really really strongly and
I need less of the candy shimmerand I tend to seek out strings
that are particularly dark anddon't have many overtones.
And it's not as crazy as itsounds, because the strings
(30:06):
affect each other and if strings, if your low strings, are
putting out a ridiculous amountof high overtones or I'm gonna
say ridiculous, I mean the kindof overtones you get by putting
on a your normal mainstream setof acoustic guitar strings, the
high notes that are coming offthe low strings are inevitably
(30:28):
going to have phasecancellations and dulling out
with the higher strings and themore the low strings can just
focus on the fundamental andleave the field clear for the
strings with higher pitches.
The ultimate example of that andexcuse me, I'm drifting a
little away from acoustic for amoment is the famous Beetle
Bird's 12-string sound.
How did they make it jangle somuch?
(30:49):
They make it jangle so muchbecause they were using flat
wound strings and the lowstrings don't have a lot of
overtones on them and the octavestrings have all the room in
the world to sing.
And if you try it back andforth, you know, and trying to
play, you know Ticket to Ride orMr Tambourine man, with or
without the flat wound strings,it's like a light switch is on.
(31:11):
Oh, that's the jangle and it'snot darker.
Some strings are darker to letother strings glisten more.
Elton Bradman (31:20):
I was going to ask if both of you have done
enough recording now that youprobably have a preferred signal
chain Maybe not down to thedetails, but for example you
could say you know, I've hadgood results with this mic, I've
had good results with this DIDo you have preferences at this
point and how flexible are youabout those?
Joe Gore (31:38):
If it's, if I'm going with a producer who I know and
trust and respect, or who'spaying me, I tend to let them do
their job.
You know, if Chad Blake issetting up microphones, I'm not
going to say anything about howhe wants to set up his
microphones, but on the otherhand, you often go into a
session a lot and people mightneed a little pointers, or they
(31:59):
might set up a mic and you kindof subtly adjust it to where you
think it sounds right.
You mentioned specificallysignal chain and I think there's
things that are generally trueand also for those of us who are
working in home studios, evenif we own some nice gear, it's
not like a mic locker at astudio, I mean, unless we're
(32:20):
really rich.
And so you know you probablydon't have that many choices and
you probably get veryaccustomed to using and very
good at using.
You know particular tools.
The conventional wisdom is thatsmall diaphragm condenser mics
are, you know, the number onechoice for acoustic guitars,
except there's 10,000 exampleswhere that isn't true.
(32:41):
It tends to be my default.
I'm going to refer back to whatI said earlier about the context
mattering, because the musicalstyle can have a lot to do with
what single recording choicesyou make.
That's especially true inwhether or not to record in
stereo.
And there are a lot of timeswhere people think they need
(33:03):
stereo and mono is the bestsolution.
And there's times where youreally do want that stereo and
there's times where you cancreate a convincing stereo image
out of a mono single.
And again, there's a millionexceptions.
But to speak in the mostgeneralized averaging out of
factors terms, the moreinstruments are on the track,
(33:26):
the more likely I am to use mono.
If it's a pop track, you know,like something with a consistent
beat that's meant to sound kindof popular, I do mono but might
double the part left and rightin stereo, I do mono but might
double the part left and rightin stereo.
If it's a solo acousticrecording, you tend to think you
want stereo and I tend to useit.
(33:47):
But boy, it's a whole world ofdecisions about.
You know, are you going to doit with XY or are you going to
do it with mid-side rejection?
When working in stereo, I'vebecome a real fan of ORTF,
miciking Technique, and theacronyms are it's a French thing
, so it's Office deRadiodiffusion Television
Française.
(34:08):
Wow, it's something that Frenchradio engineers came up with
and talking about.
You know there's probably threemost common stereo miking
techniques.
You know one is the setup I'musing my hands to gesture on an
audio podcast.
That's brilliant, let me put.
Let me put, we'll describe.
You know, one method is tosimply set up two microphones at
(34:31):
some distance apart, kind ofangled in towards the guitar.
There's a sometimes popularmethod called mid-side rejection
, where you use two micsliterally stacked on top of each
other like a little microphonesandwich, and you do phasing
tricks to create a stereo image.
And ORTF works a lot like abinaural head microphone.
(34:54):
In ORTF you have two mics,maybe three, four inches apart,
both angling in, and I find thatthat gives a really natural,
beautiful stereo image.
It's really easy to get toostereo on your acoustic guitars
(35:16):
and there starts to be no centerthere anymore.
And you know, if I want stereo,ortf always seems to work.
Um, it tends not to have phaseproblems when you um, mash it
down to mono.
Um, you can.
You can exaggerate or diminishthe perceived width with with
plugins.
Or you know, audio processingtools and, uh, with ortf you
(35:39):
usually use a specialized micclip where the mic positions are
exact.
You can't adjust their anglesbecause they sort of calculate
what the right angle is, and I'ma big fan of that technique,
but big fan of mono too, man.
Molly Miller (35:54):
Yeah, I mean, I agree with Joe, it just like
depends what it is.
Is it like you're layering fiveacoustic guitars on, like or
what you know, all thesedifferent timbres and different
parts and octaves and whatnot?
So verse, is it solo guitar,you know?
And I feel like differentthings are called for each.
And also, yeah, home or at astudio.
(36:19):
I mean I have a limitedcollection of mics, so I have, I
use like the limited mics Ihave, but it works and I, you
know I've never had complaintsabout my acoustic recording jobs
.
But yeah, definitely go.
If it's like something I would,something more high end, I
would go to a studio.
Joe Gore (36:40):
But also, you know, to get.
Well, it's the.
You know, one of the tragediesabout recording acoustic guitar
is that, unlike on electricguitar, you can get one of the
cheapest mics ever made andsound great.
A lot of classic recordingswere made on a Shure SM57, which
is like an $80 microphone.
It's not the same on acoustic.
If you use a cheaper dynamic micon acoustic you might get a
(37:05):
sound that's cool, you might getan attitude that's right for
the track.
Uh, you know, sometimes ahorrible sound is the right
sound, like, very famously, thekeith richards acoustic tone on
street fighting man which waslike uh, overdriving the preamp
in a 1960s cassette recorder.
So it kind of sounds like anelectric guitar.
So lo-fi makes sense.
But if you're going, if you'regoing for fi, you can, you, can,
you can.
You can do it on a budget.
(37:26):
You can.
You know the I I inherited somebeautiful Schepps microphones
which are a very high end smalldiaphragm condenser that
probably costs a little overthree grand a pair.
I just I was given them by myfather-in-law who was used to be
a very talented amateurrecordist.
(37:47):
And but if you buy, you knowthe Neumann knockoffs like and
they kind of have a lot of themare copied after the Neumann
small diaphragm microphone andyou're probably getting 80 of
the performance for like 20 ofthe price.
You can make you know, you can,you know, basically a lot of
(38:08):
them are just chinese or russianclones of german and austrian
mics and they often work reallywell.
You can, you know, you can makehi-fi good acoustic recording
sounds with with a pair of bluesmall diaphragm condensers which
probably cost $250 or $300.
Molly Miller (38:24):
Yeah, I was going to say it really does depend on
the sound you're going for,Because sometimes my favorite
recordings are really lo-fi,like just demos that are raw.
Yeah, I use an AKG 414 oftenand I think it sounds great on
my acoustic.
Joe Gore (38:42):
Well, that's considered a very high-end
studio microphone, but the one Ihave is like $800 or something.
Molly Miller (38:48):
You know it's not crazy.
Like you know you're talkingabout, yeah, so to me, like that
was my gift to myself and I waslike now that I'm going to be a
serious recorder.
Joe Gore (38:59):
Another thought about.
I mentioned in passing doubling.
You know, like doubling monoguitars on a on a pop, you know,
for a pop sound and Iexperienced something a few
years ago that really opened myeyes, which is when I would do
the doubling.
I would really try to make itas exact as possible, really
exact.
And then the tiny littleimperfections where it isn't
(39:23):
exactly exact give you thislovely left-right animation in
the recording where one chord orone note might stand out and it
just sort of percolates.
But I always focused on makingit really tight and one of the
best techniques for keeping ittight if you're playing with the
ensemble is follow the hi-hat,because a lot of time the
drummer's hi-hat and the guitarare doing very, very similar
(39:45):
things and there's a great,there's a great potential for um
collision of groove.
So, having said all that aboutprecision, um, you know, when we
, when we started getting tohear all those classic rock
recordings split out intoindividual tracks, there are so
many revelations about thingsyou thought people were doing
(40:07):
and you were wrong, and one ofthe most dramatic for me is
hearing Johnny Marr tracks withthe Smiths split into individual
guitars and a lot of trackswhere you might not even know
there's an acoustic.
Lo and behold, there's fouracoustic guitars underneath
there and his and his techniquewas was not precision, they're
(40:28):
sloppy as hell, but that's youknow.
When he puts together you know10, 12, 16 tracks of guitars
that that aren't exactly in time.
It kind of makes this reallycompelling smear.
And a particularly notableexample is the very first
Smith's single, this Charmingman, which people think of as an
(40:49):
electric guitar song.
It's got a prominent electricguitar riff and I think most
people, if asked to guess, wouldsay how many guitars are you
hearing on this track?
And oh, you know, maybe doubledelectric, maybe a few little
stabs here and there.
I'm going to guess threeguitars and there's 16 guitars
on that song and you wouldn'tknow it unless you listen for it
.
I was flabbergasted when Iinterviewed him many years ago
(41:12):
and he told me that that there's16 tracks of guitars on that
song and lots of them areacoustic.
Smith's songs are packed withsloppy mixed-in-back acoustic
guitars and it just makes thisglorious ringing jumble.
That was such a unique voiceand it really made me question
my dedication to maximumprecision on doing doubles.
Nick Grizzle (41:36):
That's the end of Part 1.
The conversation continues onour Patreon page.
Get access for $1 at patreoncomslash acoustic guitar plus.
The Acoustic Guitar Podcast isbrought to you by the team at
Acoustic Guitar Magazine.
I'm your host, Nick Grizzle,joined for this episode by Elton
Bradman.
The Acoustic Guitar Podcast isdirected and edited by Joey
(41:58):
Lusterman.
Tanya Gonzalez is our producer.
Executive producers are LizzyLusterman and Stephanie Campos.
Our theme song was composed byAdam Perlmutter and performed
for this episode by Joe Gore.
If you enjoy this podcast andwant to support us, please visit
our Patreon page at patreoncomslash acoustic guitar plus or
(42:18):
find the link in the show notesfor this episode.
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We thank you so much for yoursupport.
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If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!