May 29, 2024 • 33 mins
Guitarists Nathan Salsburg and James Elkington discuss collaboration, instrumental composition, unusual guitar fragrances, and their new album, All Gist.
Thank you to Strings By Mail for sponsoring this episode. Explore guitar strings and special offers at stringsbymail.com.
Additional Resources:
- Order All Gist on Bandcamp.
- Visit James Elkington's website.
- Read our 2018 "Guitar Talk" interview with Elkington.
- Watch our 2018 Acoustic Guitar Sessions video with Salsburg.
- Learn to play Nathan Salsburg’s “B.B.” - a melodic instrumental with an unusual origin.
Support the show:
The Acoustic Guitar Podcast theme music is composed by Adam Perlmutter and performed for this episode by Jeffrey Pepper Rodgers.
This episode is hosted by Nick Grizzle, produced by Tanya Gonzalez, and directed and edited by Joey Lusterman. Executive producers are Lyzy Lusterman and Stephanie Campos Dal Broi.
The Acoustic Guitar Podcast is produced by the team at Acoustic Guitar magazine, including:
- Publisher: Lyzy Lusterman
- Editorial Director: Adam Perlmutter
- Managing Editor: Kevin Owens
- Creative Director: Joey Lusterman
- Digital Content Director: Stephanie Campos Dal Broi
- Digital Content Manager: Nick Grizzle
- Marketing Services Manager: Tanya Gonzalez
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Nathan Salsburg (00:00):
He'll spark ideas in me.
And you know a song.
It's not just like there'ssomething that Jim is playing
and then he'll bring to me and Iwrite my part and we're done.
Ideas are still coming, thesong still takes a shape that
would not have been foreseen.
It's not just like adding asecond part.
James Elkington (00:13):
Oh it, just it goes.
It ends up being a completelydifferent thing than I'd be able
to come up with by myself.
Nick Grizzle (00:23):
Thank you.
Stephanie Campos (00:54):
Welcome to the Acoustic Guitar Podcast.
I'm Stephanie Campos.
Our usual host, nick Grizzle,is out of the office, so I'm
filling in to introduce thisepisode.
A few weeks ago, nick sat downwith guitarists Nathan Salzberg
and James Elkington to discusscollaboration, instrumental
composition, unusual guitarfragrances and their new album
(01:17):
All Gist.
Before we get started, here isa quick word from the sponsor of
this episode.
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And thank you for listening.
To start our conversation, weasked Elkington and Salzberg how
they approach composing for theduo.
Nathan Salsburg (02:04):
Well, it's a much different experience for me
writing with Jim or for Jim orin opposition to Jim than it is
writing myself.
In that, largely like when I'mdoing a solo composition, the
story unfolds as I kind of playmy way through it.
You know, obviously, whateverthat narrative, voice or plot
(02:27):
device is, I can't say, it'sleft to the listener, I guess.
But there's never anypreconceived like.
There's never any, there'snever a plan and there's even
less of that playing with Jim.
Um, in that, largely well, thisrecord was half and half.
Butim will come up with askeleton of a piece and then
I'll come in and try to work myway around.
It's funny because I've neverthought about those, the songs
(02:50):
that we do, having any sort oflike necessarily narrative
spirit to them, because it's sokind of experiential for us,
it's just so really that theserecords are made because we love
playing guitar together andit's less that we have some sort
of a like a story we needtelling or, um, any kind of like
world we want to create beyondjust sort of like the joy of
(03:10):
playing together but I think wealso share a certain sensibility
, or we share a sense of uh,rightness, of how things should
go, um, and that's like a, it'sa shorthand that we so take for
granted, that I'd forget aboutit a lot of the time, but almost
anyone that I've played musicwith for a long time, that's
(03:33):
that's usually the thing thatkeeps me playing with them is
that we don't really have todiscuss it that much.
James Elkington (03:41):
If we're coming up with a piece of music,
there'll be a um, there'll be aflow to it and a shape to it
that we can both kind of agreeon.
We'll know.
We'll both know that whenchanges need to be made and when
things aren't working, and whenthey are working and um,
there's no real necessary,necessarily any rhyme or reason
to it.
(04:01):
It's just something that weboth seem to agree on.
Nick Grizzle (04:04):
Is there a lot of improv when you guys get
together to record?
James Elkington (04:07):
Our process is mostly to when we get together,
one of us will have an idea,either a gem of an idea or like
a full song, and then the otherperson will try and find their
place in it.
Nathan Salsburg (04:24):
Not to keep harping on this point, but when
we have made records we makethem over extremely limited
durations of time, like, say,three, four days max.
And this one was even more of atruncated writing and recording
experience because since thelast record we made well, jim
has two kids, I have one kid Itraveled from Louisville,
kentucky, up to Chicago where helives, to make it and we're
(04:46):
kind of racing against the clock.
So in some cases, takes that weget are well, in a couple of
cases were kind of the best thatwe could do in the time that we
allotted ourselves before wereally did hit a wall and said
it's just not going to get anybetter from here, though again,
luckily, we've reached a point,especially with this record.
We're older now we have less toprove and you know, a record
(05:08):
that was always sort of aninspiration, always like an
initial inspiration for ourplaying together, was the, you
know, perchance and john renburnrecord which, as we've said
several times on tape, it's justnot a great sounding record,
it's not like very from the hip.
Yeah, and you know, if we can,if, if we can, use that as kind
of a talisman, you know, as a,as a as a guide.
Um, you just get the songs down.
James Elkington (05:30):
Well enough, like you can feel good about
them, you know because thewriting process happens almost
at the same time as therecording.
We'll really just carry onplaying that song or that idea
or that group of ideas and carryon refining them almost right
up to the point where it's timeto record them, the point at
(05:50):
which we both agree that theyhave seemed to have reached some
sort of shape that we both like.
Then we'll, with the limitedtime that we have, we'll pretty
much start recording right then.
Nick Grizzle (06:02):
Was there anything specific about this?
This the recording session forthis album that stuck out for
you, um say, as opposed to thethe other two that you've done.
Nathan Salsburg (06:11):
I don't remember the last one that we I
only have the Vegas memories ofthe last two.
James Elkington (06:16):
It's been so long it was a while ago.
Well, the first one we did wedid at a friend's house, a
recording engineer friend ofours called, uh, jonathan shanky
, who did a.
He did a really good job andthat was the first time that
nathan and I had recordedtogether and it was good to not
have to worry about recording.
I think that's part of thereason why we did it with johnny
(06:38):
was because I didn't.
I I felt like I was kind of upagainst it just being able to
play the guitar parts withouthaving to worry about whether it
was recording well or not.
Um, and then the second one, Ithink, was a little more loose
and I didn't mind us recordingand it seemed like, um, the
second one, I think, becausethat the first one was so fun to
(07:00):
make, I think I felt a littlebit more confident.
I could, I could probablyrecord it and then you know,
anything that wasn't recorded,great, we could maybe fix in the
mix or something like that.
That was the first time where Iwas like we'll just record and
see what happens.
And I think we did it with justone microphone on each guitar.
Well, maybe we had twomicrophones on each guitar, but
lots of bleed and and that oneturned out fine too.
(07:23):
So after that I had a fairlycasual approach to actually
capturing the stuff.
Nathan Salsburg (07:30):
It is a little bit of a I don't mean to
overstate this, but it's vaguelypsychedelic because it is so.
It's such a concentratedexperience and there are.
The thing is is because thepurpose is to get these
extremely new songs down.
Like extremely, they've justsort of become incarnate.
(07:51):
You get them down and then anhour later you're like what,
what?
Even what did we do before thisone?
Like what does that song evensound like?
Like it's just they're goneuntil you go back and listen to
them and then they start to sortof you, you know, cement
themselves in your brain orwhatever.
But it really is.
It's a very intense, I guess,sort of transcendent musical
experience I've had in thatsense, like just that it's.
(08:11):
It's so concentrated it is.
James Elkington (08:14):
It is really intense if you consider, like,
the amount of levels of undothat you go through, just
writing the piece and thenhaving to try and perform it, um
, while it's kind of fresh inyour mind, and then hope that
you play it.
Well, there's a song on therewhich is a it's like a medley of
french folk tunes, breton folktunes, that, um was, for
whatever reason, just verytechnically difficult for me to
(08:36):
play.
But then you're put in thatposition of like, not only do
you want to get through it foryourself, you want to get
through it for the other persontoo, because if you can't play
it, then they have to keepplaying it too, and they, they
might be barely hanging onthemselves.
So I remember that one that wasthe only one where it seemed
like one or both of us weregoing to throw our guitars out
(08:57):
of the window.
I actually I'm not crazy aboutthat tune because I can hear the
panic in my fingers.
Nick Grizzle (09:02):
Do Do you listen to your own music often?
James Elkington (09:06):
No only to be reminded of how it goes, nathan,
nathan and I have got, we have,uh, we're we're planning on
playing some shows in June and,because of the process that
Nathan was just telling youabout, it's sort of I know that
we can get back there.
Nathan Salsburg (09:22):
This.
This record came togetherbecause we were invited by can I
use the name of thispublication on this podcast,
fretboard journal.
Can I say that you have tobleep it out.
We did a fretboard journal likea workshop at their summit
which they did in chicago acouple years ago, and that was
and, and they invited us to doit, we're gonna pass.
And we were like, oh, we couldcome up and learn a couple of
the older tunes.
(09:42):
And maybe we've been saying foryears we wanted to make another
record.
This could be an opportunity.
So we tried to.
We relearned a couple of songsfrom the last record we did and
then just leaned into coming upwith some new stuff.
And for me certainly, like thebiggest lesson learned over the
intervening years for me wasthat, like, do not bring things
in a bunch of alternate tunings.
Don't do it because you have tofirst, you have to write those
(10:03):
tunings down and keep themsomewhere where you'll be able
to find them later.
And also it's such a pain,Obviously, if we ever were to
perform these, as of course weall know to have to jump from
tuning to tuning to tuning overthe course of a set.
So for me, with the exceptionof one alternate tuning.
I'm just playing in drop D's oneverything, so it's it is going
to be easier when it comes timeto you know, cram and relearn
(10:24):
these for me so that's you saidon this album.
Pretty much everything you'redoing is drop d drop d is yeah,
both these are in d.
There's a couple, a couple onesthat are in d, a d, e a d for
me, um, but yeah, otherwise it'sall drop these I've never
really gotten into alternativetunings that much.
James Elkington (10:41):
When we started I was pretty much playing in
standard or drop D.
It seemed also as a sort of acompositional tool.
That's kind of where I feelmost comfortable is in standard.
But this changed in about 2015,2016.
I started playing in DagCad andI made a couple of albums of
(11:02):
songs which are pretty much allin Daggad and I feel really
comfortable with that as atuning now.
So when we started playingtogether, I was more in daggad
than I was in standard.
I think maybe the nana cherrysong.
I went back to standard orsomething for that.
But, um, yeah, but the majorityof so I'll have to be going
between standard and dad gadwhen we actually play live.
Nick Grizzle (11:26):
God help us, I know I want to go back to that
rule.
Britannia tune what?
Uh, where did those songs comefrom?
You said it was a medley.
How many tunes are in that onesong that you guys put together?
Nathan Salsburg (11:40):
just two, so I don't know if it's is a medley.
Doesn't medley have to be threeor more?
James Elkington (11:46):
no, well, no, there's.
Nathan Salsburg (11:47):
I think that there might be a third part to
it that we wrote that, you and Iwrote yeah, yeah yeah, that's
right.
I think we sort of wrote somesort of bridge yeah, one came
from, oh lord, um, I have all ofthese lps of like seventies
Breton folk revival groups andthey all absolutely blend
(12:09):
together the titles.
I think this is like purple andfolk or something it's called,
where they had a tune that Isent Jim and I was like I'd love
to do this.
It's unidentified, it's justcalled like dance or something,
and I sent it to Jim and saidI'd love to do this and he was
like, oh, you know, pierre Ben,susan, does some, some does a
version of this.
We managed to, you know, make asynthesis of those.
(12:30):
And then there was the anotherpiece that was, unless I'm
getting this wrong I can'tremember mick hanley and mikhail
o'donnell's group and if youknow this record, it's the worst
band title of all time celticfolk weave from 1974.
It's like the guys from theBothy Band.
So Mick Canley was a soloartist and then Mikaela Donald
played in a band called Scarbraeand then the Bothy Band and
(12:51):
made those really great recordswith the fiddler Kevin Burke.
But anyway, there's a tune onthat record that also Jim knew
in some capacity on the CelticFolk Weave record and we managed
to just jam them together andthen put a bridge together.
Um, we give none of thisprovenance on the record.
It occurs to me.
Nick Grizzle (13:10):
No one gets any credits, no, where are the tunes
themselves from, like how oldare these tunes?
Nathan Salsburg (13:17):
great question.
Um, I have no idea.
I know they're both, you knowthey're both Breton tunes.
Um, I work sort of adjacent toI mean, I mean I work in, I work
in the folk, in folk music, butI don't play traditional music.
So there are people, of course,who can just hear something and
be like, oh yeah, that'sdefinitely like late 17th
century, you know that's it.
Nick Grizzle (13:35):
Let's go into the other, the other song that you
didn't write entirely BuffaloStance, the Nina Cherry tune.
How did that come up?
Nathan Salsburg (13:43):
Well it started .
How did that come up?
Well, it started.
It happened for me because Iwas playing the original for my
toddler and um was just like god.
The song was so great, it's sogreat, and there are all these
wonderful little melodicelements.
They're so catchy, they're sobeautiful.
Um, and I just sent it to jimand I was like we should do this
and jim said no bad idea, Iidea, I think that's a sane
(14:06):
response, you know.
James Elkington (14:09):
Yeah, it was also an instance of Nathan
saying, hey, let's do this.
Why don't you try and come upwith something?
You know Buffalo stance, youknow for acoustic guitar.
I was like, eh, there's a.
She has another song called, Ithink, the single that came out
after that because she was, Imean, really big in england.
You know, I remember seeing heron top of the pops when I was
(14:31):
teenager and loved that song andloved that.
That whole record is reallygood.
Nathan Salsburg (14:36):
Um, but she had another song after that called
manchild, which is much moresong like, and I was like let's
do manchild and nathan said, no,we can do, we can do this and
so literally, in a matter of Imean, I really I think it was an
hour after we discussed, youknow, initially had the back and
forth about it jim sent a demoof one guitar sort of tackling
(14:59):
the you know constituent melodicmost of the constituent melodic
elements, buffalo stance, I Ilost my mind.
It was so good, it was likeexactly what I so vaguely
imagined, um, and I listened toit over and over.
I remember where I was whenjim's text came in and I was
like I ran downstairs and mywife was like, listen to this,
let me just listen to it overand over.
James Elkington (15:19):
It was great we actually, we were both in,
weren't we both in kentucky?
Weren't we both in louisville?
I was in Michigan.
Oh, you were in Michigan,that's what it was.
So I was in Louisville, whereNathan lives, but he wasn't
there.
But even sometimes when I am inLouisville, my wife's family,
her parents, live in Louisville.
She's from Louisville, sosometimes when we are down there
(15:41):
we'll both be in the same cityat the same time but still not
get to see each other.
So I couldn't really rememberwhere where it was.
But yeah, you were in michigan.
But the the key to that was, Iguess, was just like I would
slowed it down with a view tospeeding it back up again.
But then I it's it soundedbetter just kind of moved down
(16:01):
tempo wise and, um, yeah, we'dhad I mean, we'd had, like we'd
had some luck before we did asmith's cover on our previous
album.
That was, I think that was myidea, but it might have been.
We're both big smith's fans, sowe might have even discussed it
.
But that that song, it hadoccurred to me that if you, you,
(16:23):
you could perform.
If you sort of slowed that downand finger picked it, it
actually sounded you, it wouldsound not unlike a john fahey
song or something.
You could still play the melodyand some of the guitar parts
and it would hang togetherpretty well.
So we already had a kind ofsystem from having done that and
we just tried to apply it tobuffalo stance, although you
(16:43):
have to use your imagination alittle bit more, I think, when
you're listening to it, to beable to hear where the the
parallels are but it'd be saidtoo that we're we don't want to
sound like john fahey songs.
So no, that was another, youknow but I hope, like with the
no, I wouldn't I wouldn't beable to sell anything to nathan
by saying, hey look, I've gotthis idea.
That sounds like john fahey.
(17:04):
That would be not.
It wouldn't get me anywhere,since, no matter what we do,
people are going to say likethis sounds like john fahey,
that's right but I have to, Ihave to resort to other things
if I want nathan to be on boardwith something like hey, this
bit it sounds kind of like themisfits, and then I'll be like,
oh yeah, that's cool.
Nick Grizzle (17:23):
Yeah, let's do that so Misfits cover next
record we actually.
James Elkington (17:29):
I mean, we nearly did do a Misfits cover,
didn't we?
Yeah, halloween.
Nathan Salsburg (17:33):
Halloween because Halloween in 2015, when
we did our last tour, we weretouring with Steve Gunn familiar
with Steve, our player andsongwriter, and he was we.
We talked about doing the threeof us from doing halloween and
it just uh, it was last minute.
We gotta get together and itwas a great regret of mine.
Nick Grizzle (17:50):
I'm a massive misfits fan, always have been
and we were playing on halloweenin chicago and I was like, ah,
I just always felt like a missedopportunity so, uh, when you're
arranging tunes I want to getinto this a little bit um, you
know, we can talk aboutarranging like other songs, like
the Nin Cherry Tune, but alsofor your own songs, because you
(18:11):
mentioned like one of you willcome with an idea or a fully you
know sketched out song, andthen how does the arranging go?
How much pre production do youdo, like sending files back and
forth, or is it just hey, let'sget together?
You've heard the song, let'ssee what comes out.
In this moment of three dayswhen we're recording together,
(18:33):
what is that process like foryou for arranging for two
guitars, like that?
James Elkington (18:39):
Well, one thing that we realized was that it's
really difficult for us to get afull read on what the other
person is doing unless we'reboth in the room together.
So there's actually no point ingetting too far down the road
with an arrangement.
Also, nathan and I play solo,so we're used to doing the whole
(19:00):
thing, whole thing.
And uh, I think in the when westarted out doing it because, um
, I was, I I started out writingtunes for our first album, like
10 years ago, and initially Ithink maybe I hadn't done a good
job of leaving enough space fornathan to be able to work in.
(19:20):
You know, I'd actually like geta song to a point where it was
presentable almost as a solopiece, and then it doesn't
really leave very, very muchspace to work in.
So we've gotten better atcoming up with an idea and only
getting so far with it.
You know, leaving the door opento anything changing, or
(19:44):
there's even some things open toanything changing, or there's
even some things.
I remember writing some stuffwhere I'd be playing a melody
and there would be like aharmony to it or whatever and,
um, just simplifying my guitarpart just to the just to single
note stuff, so that Nathan hasroom to move around, and he does
that with me too with his ideas.
I will occasionally be like uh,can you not play so much there
(20:08):
so that I can do this?
Nathan Salsburg (20:10):
or stop playing that low note there, I'm going
to play that one you know, whichdoes require a little bit of
just rethinking one's approach,because again, we don't get to,
I don't get to play with anyother.
I play with my wife, who's aguitar player, but she's a
fairly minimal guitar player andum it is.
It's a really fun experience inum, you know, not minimalism
(20:33):
but in reducing one's you know,I'm just a footprint reducing
one's fingerprint.
You might say just playing lessbecause it does sound better.
You don't want to hear twoguitars like going, you know
yeah, that's, that's that's.
James Elkington (20:45):
Another concern is that it's it can.
I mean it's, it's alreadypretty noodley, but the there's
the there's the potential for itto become kind of unlistenable.
Really, you know, like no funfor anyone and we would.
We're trying to write songsreally is what we're trying to
(21:06):
do.
We just and and our we happento have the same voice, which is
acoustic guitar, so, um, tryingto make those work together is
it's really great actually.
I mean, we haven't played thatmany shows.
We only played about a week ofshows, and there was a long time
ago now but, but, um, it'sreally fantastic to be playing
(21:27):
with someone who can shoulderthe burden.
You know, I can actually likestop playing if I need to, and
and know that Nathan will beable to carry on.
That's a huge, because I'm usedto playing on my own.
Nick Grizzle (21:40):
He's used to playing on his own too so I mean
you, you mentioned at first youwould write jim, you would
write almost fully formed songs,and he had to dial it back, you
know, knowing that both of youhave that ability to write a
song that is fully formed forone guitar.
Um, you know playing devil'sadvocate a little bit here, why
(22:05):
write what may seem like anincomplete song just to record a
duo?
You know what?
What is, what is the fun ofthat, you know?
James Elkington (22:15):
oh, it, just it goes.
It ends up being a completelydifferent thing than I'd be able
to come up with by myself.
It's like um, the, the processthat we have is so fun to to
work with and it's, if I could,if I could generate that, if I
felt like I could generate thaton my own, I I would, but um,
(22:40):
but uh, no, this is somethingthat like really, we found that
the more space we leave in theideas, um, and the more the then
, the more the other person canget to grips with it and
actually the the music is betterand it gets done quicker.
It's like um, you just have toreally like leave that, leave
that space.
(23:00):
Um, we both still do things onour own and they sound very
different.
This is we.
We have, like a particular.
We were surprised actually, wehadn't played together for so
long, but when we playedtogether for the um the uh
aforementioned uh performance um, we were surprised how quickly
(23:21):
we got back into it.
We have developed a little bitof language and a way of working
for ourselves, and it's a wayof working that doesn't.
I don't do that with anyoneelse.
I don't have that with anyoneelse.
Nick Grizzle (23:34):
So, Nathan, for you in the songwriting process,
would you say you kind of have asimilar thought in that you
know it's just the songs end upbetter, or is there any kind of
twist in there that you wantedto add to that?
Nathan Salsburg (23:47):
I will say that when I I've gotten better at
this over the years, but I Ithink that I've been guilty in
the past.
Guilty, I think.
Maybe I've been slightly.
I've changed my mind about thebest way to be a composer and in
years past I've written a lotof pieces that I think just kind
of kitchen sink approaches.
I just couldn't stop coming upwith ideas and so I just felt
(24:08):
like, while I'm here, I can addthis and I can add this and I
can add this, and songs justtended to get.
They just got, I don't knowabout busy, but there will be a
lot of parts.
I happen to be working on apiece right now.
That's like one piece, that'slike 28 or I mean it's
ridiculous, but it's hopefully.
Hopefully it'll work.
We'll see.
Um, but when it comes to runningwith jim, what's what's been,
what's really rewarding, is thatI don't feel like I need to
(24:31):
come up with everything.
I can come up with two parts Ilove playing.
Bring them to jim, and not onlywill he devise some really
interesting you know countervoicings or whatever else to
flesh out the sort of minimalthing that I brought, but he'll
spark ideas in me and you know asong.
It's not just like there'ssomething that Jim is playing
and then he'll bring to me and Iwrite my part and we're done.
(24:53):
Ideas are still coming, thesong still takes a shape that
would not have been foreseen.
It's not just like adding asecond part, um and so, and I
really like.
I really like that because forme it does mean it's kind of.
It's just less, less of aburden, it's less of a
compositional burden.
I don't feel like I have tocome.
You know, all the ideas don'thave to be, doesn't have to be
finished before I get there.
Nick Grizzle (25:13):
That's just I want to change gears a little bit
and get into gear.
What guitars are you guysplaying on this record?
James Elkington (25:20):
when we started , I had like a sort of um
entry-level martin it had a hada d prefix.
Then, oh no, it had a one suffix, that was.
It was like a, it was like atriple o, one or an om1 or
something like that and um, andthat was a nice acoustic guitar
for me.
At the time I was like I wasquite, I was quite pleased with
(25:42):
that and it recorded okay.
But the first really niceacoustic guitar that I got was
the Santa Cruz OM that I haveand that's the guitar that is on
this record, which I'll comeback to.
That's why that guitar ismostly on this record.
But when I play on my own I havean old J-50 that I really love
(26:04):
and the thing that I love aboutit the most is it doesn't care
what I want to do, it just playsthe way it plays and it fights
back a lot and it's kind of abeast and I just always like how
it makes me play.
So that's like my more favoriteguitar.
(26:24):
I also have a Waterloo that Ireally that I really like.
Too much of a mismatch between.
Nathan has two nice guitarsthat sound fairly similar and if
(26:45):
I play my J 50 on my waterlooit sounds like I'm playing like
a completely differentinstrument from him in a not
great way.
Sounds lesser somehow.
It's almost like the J 50 likecompletely needs to be in its
own space to work, but when it's, when it's put up against
nathan's guitar, it didn't soundthat great.
So I ended up going back to theom, which is what's on the
(27:07):
second record, and um playedthat pretty much the whole time
it's worth saying that the omhas a handle.
Nathan Salsburg (27:13):
Sorry, it doesn't make sense.
It has a moniker, it has a name.
Oh, it does have a name and itsname is stinky because it was
bought in louisville.
Uh, I, a guy, actually jim'smother-in-law went and picked it
up and brought it to my houseto bring to him, I think was
what went, and the guy had thisis.
James Elkington (27:32):
this is what happened.
I bought it on ebay.
It was the most expensiveguitar I'd ever bought and I
bought it on eBay.
I was really, I was reallynervous about it.
I've been emailing with the guy, but Nathan and the guy was in
Louisville and so Nathan livesin Louisville.
I called Nathan and said canyou go over there and check this
guitar out and see if it's good?
(27:55):
So he's like fine.
Nathan Salsburg (27:59):
I didn't go over.
Remember, didn't't it, didn'tit happen that your mom, your,
your mother-in-law, brought itto my house to play?
Somehow she got involved no, no, no.
James Elkington (28:07):
You went to the house.
No, I didn't.
You went to the, you did.
And then you sat and you calledme and you said no, you.
You said this is good.
And then I hit the buy itbutton and then you sat there
and waited for it to work on itto come up on his phone
recollection of this, zerorecollection.
okay, so that was part one, andthen I think you took it home.
(28:31):
Acoustic guitar fans love thisstuff.
They were like tell us moreabout stinky j Jim, this is gold
, this is acoustic guitar gold.
You took it home and then mymother in law picked it up from
you and a friend of a friend ofhers was meeting her daughter in
Indianapolis the following day.
So she drove to Indianapolisbecause her daughter was from
(28:53):
Chicago and she went toIndianapolis with his guitar and
gave it to the daughter.
And the daughter drove to myhouse and handy minuteapolis
with this guitar and gave it tothe daughter.
And the daughter drove to myhouse and handed me this guitar
within 24 hours of me buying it.
It was in my hand and it hadchanged hands four times, but it
did not lose any of thefragrance that this man had worn
(29:14):
so we need to get into that.
Nick Grizzle (29:17):
where, where did the stinky name come from, right
so?
Nathan Salsburg (29:20):
let's go back to that.
He was heavily cologned.
Nick Grizzle (29:24):
So are we talking like a Tom Ford or like a Brute
for Men?
Like what level of cologne?
James Elkington (29:30):
It was kind of Brute-esque, wasn't it?
It was Brute-y.
Here's what I think happened.
You know how we all put oncologne.
You know we'd splash it onplays uh, heart gold, and then
he's, he's hitting the clubanyway.
I think that the the processfrom going like this oh you
(29:50):
can't.
Nathan Salsburg (29:51):
No, people don't know what you're doing.
Nick Grizzle (29:53):
It's a podcast so yeah, so you're putting on
aftershave, right slapping it on.
James Elkington (29:57):
I'm slapping the aftershave on and then I'm
gripping the Santa Cruz manfullyand imbuing it with this.
I think it must have drunk thewood, must have drunk some of
the aftershave or whatever and Iwould let it gas off for like
10 days at a time and think itwas fine, and then I'd put it in
the case for like a day andwhen I'd open the case I'd be
(30:20):
back in the club.
Nathan Salsburg (30:23):
It still stinks .
I mean it's gotten better, butit does still have a.
James Elkington (30:25):
I don't think I can smell it anymore.
Maybe it's just part of me now.
Did you smell it?
Nathan Salsburg (30:30):
when you were here?
Oh yeah, I smelled it when wewere there last time.
And how long ago was this?
Long enough for me tocompletely forget going to this
guy's house?
I have zero recollection ofthis.
James Elkington (30:44):
probably 12, 12 years ago, 13 years ago
probably 12 or 13 years ago,something like that.
Nick Grizzle (30:48):
Oh my gosh it's like when you walk into someone
else's house and you can smelltheir house and they?
They don't know because they'rein it all the time.
Right, that's what the guitarfeels like to me.
James Elkington (30:59):
Yes, nathan comes here and he can smell my
guitar.
Nathan Salsburg (31:07):
He doesn't like it.
Funny actually I'm pivoting tome now I play a Bourgeois J-O-M
like their jumbo O-M that Jimand I drove all over Chicagoland
like 13 or 14 years ago lookingfor, not realizing that was.
This was a guitar.
But it was time for me toupgrade um from like a you know
(31:27):
just an entry-level decent, youknow 800 or something you know
entry-level guild dreadnought.
My dad bought me from my yeah,from my um high school
graduation and we found thisbourgeois.
It was set up for like a like aheavy duty flat picker.
Like the action was intense,the belly was kind of gnarly.
It's currently just beenfinished being worked on for
(31:48):
like the fourth time in fouryears.
It's not.
It's not a super happy guitar,but it is like it's.
I love it.
It feels so great.
I've gotten it where I want it.
It sounds fantastic.
It it sounds fantastic.
It records fantastic.
It's really versatile.
That guitar I bought a Carruraflight case for some years ago.
It's like a Thai company.
(32:08):
Some guy I knew was like theirAmerican agent gave me a deal
and they use, I guess, inThailand like the most intense
hide glue you can imagine andlike my, that guitar for 14
years has just stunk likebasically a taxidermied animal.
I mean, the high glue is so, sointense and it's let up not at
all.
So we both have our umparticularly, you know, noisome
(32:30):
instruments.
James Elkington (32:31):
They're marked with theirs I can't smell that,
obviously because I'm in a fogof brute the whole time, so I
don't I've.
I don't know what he's talkingabout, but I'm sure it's awful.
Nick Grizzle (32:41):
So is that the guitar, the hide, glue, scented
treasure?
Is that what's on this album?
Yeah, no, it's not.
Yeah, no, it is.
James Elkington (32:50):
It is.
I thought it was in the shop.
I thought you played thebourgeois, so Nathan also has a
bourgeois, om right?
Nathan Salsburg (32:58):
Wait, maybe you're right.
Was it in the shop then?
Because it had a really bad.
It had a bridge that peoplekept like not fixing.
James Elkington (33:05):
I mean basically that guitar exploded
about five times now, so itseems more likely to me that you
brought the backup, which?
Nathan Salsburg (33:15):
also records great, yeah, the OM.
I can't even remember.
Now, that's really, really it'sfunny.
Stephanie Campos (33:20):
You mentioned that that's the end of part one.
The conversation continues onpatreon.
Visit patreoncom slash acousticguitar plus to get access.
He'll spark ideas in me.
And you know a song.
It's not just like there'ssomething that Jim is playing
and then he'll bring to me and Iwrite my part and we're done.
Ideas are still coming, thesong still takes a shape that
would not have been foreseen.
It's not just like adding asecond part.
James Elkington (00:13):
Oh it, just it goes.
It ends up being a completelydifferent thing than I'd be able
to come up with by myself.
Nick Grizzle (00:23):
Thank you.
Stephanie Campos (00:54):
Welcome to the Acoustic Guitar Podcast.
I'm Stephanie Campos.
Our usual host, nick Grizzle,is out of the office, so I'm
filling in to introduce thisepisode.
A few weeks ago, nick sat downwith guitarists Nathan Salzberg
and James Elkington to discusscollaboration, instrumental
composition, unusual guitarfragrances and their new album
(01:17):
All Gist.
Before we get started, here isa quick word from the sponsor of
this episode.
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And thank you for listening.
To start our conversation, weasked Elkington and Salzberg how
they approach composing for theduo.
Nathan Salsburg (02:04):
Well, it's a much different experience for me
writing with Jim or for Jim orin opposition to Jim than it is
writing myself.
In that, largely like when I'mdoing a solo composition, the
story unfolds as I kind of playmy way through it.
You know, obviously, whateverthat narrative, voice or plot
(02:27):
device is, I can't say, it'sleft to the listener, I guess.
But there's never anypreconceived like.
There's never any, there'snever a plan and there's even
less of that playing with Jim.
Um, in that, largely well, thisrecord was half and half.
Butim will come up with askeleton of a piece and then
I'll come in and try to work myway around.
It's funny because I've neverthought about those, the songs
(02:50):
that we do, having any sort oflike necessarily narrative
spirit to them, because it's sokind of experiential for us,
it's just so really that theserecords are made because we love
playing guitar together andit's less that we have some sort
of a like a story we needtelling or, um, any kind of like
world we want to create beyondjust sort of like the joy of
(03:10):
playing together but I think wealso share a certain sensibility
, or we share a sense of uh,rightness, of how things should
go, um, and that's like a, it'sa shorthand that we so take for
granted, that I'd forget aboutit a lot of the time, but almost
anyone that I've played musicwith for a long time, that's
(03:33):
that's usually the thing thatkeeps me playing with them is
that we don't really have todiscuss it that much.
James Elkington (03:41):
If we're coming up with a piece of music,
there'll be a um, there'll be aflow to it and a shape to it
that we can both kind of agreeon.
We'll know.
We'll both know that whenchanges need to be made and when
things aren't working, and whenthey are working and um,
there's no real necessary,necessarily any rhyme or reason
to it.
(04:01):
It's just something that weboth seem to agree on.
Nick Grizzle (04:04):
Is there a lot of improv when you guys get
together to record?
James Elkington (04:07):
Our process is mostly to when we get together,
one of us will have an idea,either a gem of an idea or like
a full song, and then the otherperson will try and find their
place in it.
Nathan Salsburg (04:24):
Not to keep harping on this point, but when
we have made records we makethem over extremely limited
durations of time, like, say,three, four days max.
And this one was even more of atruncated writing and recording
experience because since thelast record we made well, jim
has two kids, I have one kid Itraveled from Louisville,
kentucky, up to Chicago where helives, to make it and we're
(04:46):
kind of racing against the clock.
So in some cases, takes that weget are well, in a couple of
cases were kind of the best thatwe could do in the time that we
allotted ourselves before wereally did hit a wall and said
it's just not going to get anybetter from here, though again,
luckily, we've reached a point,especially with this record.
We're older now we have less toprove and you know, a record
(05:08):
that was always sort of aninspiration, always like an
initial inspiration for ourplaying together, was the, you
know, perchance and john renburnrecord which, as we've said
several times on tape, it's justnot a great sounding record,
it's not like very from the hip.
Yeah, and you know, if we can,if, if we can, use that as kind
of a talisman, you know, as a,as a as a guide.
Um, you just get the songs down.
James Elkington (05:30):
Well enough, like you can feel good about
them, you know because thewriting process happens almost
at the same time as therecording.
We'll really just carry onplaying that song or that idea
or that group of ideas and carryon refining them almost right
up to the point where it's timeto record them, the point at
(05:50):
which we both agree that theyhave seemed to have reached some
sort of shape that we both like.
Then we'll, with the limitedtime that we have, we'll pretty
much start recording right then.
Nick Grizzle (06:02):
Was there anything specific about this?
This the recording session forthis album that stuck out for
you, um say, as opposed to thethe other two that you've done.
Nathan Salsburg (06:11):
I don't remember the last one that we I
only have the Vegas memories ofthe last two.
James Elkington (06:16):
It's been so long it was a while ago.
Well, the first one we did wedid at a friend's house, a
recording engineer friend ofours called, uh, jonathan shanky
, who did a.
He did a really good job andthat was the first time that
nathan and I had recordedtogether and it was good to not
have to worry about recording.
I think that's part of thereason why we did it with johnny
(06:38):
was because I didn't.
I I felt like I was kind of upagainst it just being able to
play the guitar parts withouthaving to worry about whether it
was recording well or not.
Um, and then the second one, Ithink, was a little more loose
and I didn't mind us recordingand it seemed like, um, the
second one, I think, becausethat the first one was so fun to
(07:00):
make, I think I felt a littlebit more confident.
I could, I could probablyrecord it and then you know,
anything that wasn't recorded,great, we could maybe fix in the
mix or something like that.
That was the first time where Iwas like we'll just record and
see what happens.
And I think we did it with justone microphone on each guitar.
Well, maybe we had twomicrophones on each guitar, but
lots of bleed and and that oneturned out fine too.
(07:23):
So after that I had a fairlycasual approach to actually
capturing the stuff.
Nathan Salsburg (07:30):
It is a little bit of a I don't mean to
overstate this, but it's vaguelypsychedelic because it is so.
It's such a concentratedexperience and there are.
The thing is is because thepurpose is to get these
extremely new songs down.
Like extremely, they've justsort of become incarnate.
(07:51):
You get them down and then anhour later you're like what,
what?
Even what did we do before thisone?
Like what does that song evensound like?
Like it's just they're goneuntil you go back and listen to
them and then they start to sortof you, you know, cement
themselves in your brain orwhatever.
But it really is.
It's a very intense, I guess,sort of transcendent musical
experience I've had in thatsense, like just that it's.
(08:11):
It's so concentrated it is.
James Elkington (08:14):
It is really intense if you consider, like,
the amount of levels of undothat you go through, just
writing the piece and thenhaving to try and perform it, um
, while it's kind of fresh inyour mind, and then hope that
you play it.
Well, there's a song on therewhich is a it's like a medley of
french folk tunes, breton folktunes, that, um was, for
whatever reason, just verytechnically difficult for me to
(08:36):
play.
But then you're put in thatposition of like, not only do
you want to get through it foryourself, you want to get
through it for the other persontoo, because if you can't play
it, then they have to keepplaying it too, and they, they
might be barely hanging onthemselves.
So I remember that one that wasthe only one where it seemed
like one or both of us weregoing to throw our guitars out
(08:57):
of the window.
I actually I'm not crazy aboutthat tune because I can hear the
panic in my fingers.
Nick Grizzle (09:02):
Do Do you listen to your own music often?
James Elkington (09:06):
No only to be reminded of how it goes, nathan,
nathan and I have got, we have,uh, we're we're planning on
playing some shows in June and,because of the process that
Nathan was just telling youabout, it's sort of I know that
we can get back there.
Nathan Salsburg (09:22):
This.
This record came togetherbecause we were invited by can I
use the name of thispublication on this podcast,
fretboard journal.
Can I say that you have tobleep it out.
We did a fretboard journal likea workshop at their summit
which they did in chicago acouple years ago, and that was
and, and they invited us to doit, we're gonna pass.
And we were like, oh, we couldcome up and learn a couple of
the older tunes.
(09:42):
And maybe we've been saying foryears we wanted to make another
record.
This could be an opportunity.
So we tried to.
We relearned a couple of songsfrom the last record we did and
then just leaned into coming upwith some new stuff.
And for me certainly, like thebiggest lesson learned over the
intervening years for me wasthat, like, do not bring things
in a bunch of alternate tunings.
Don't do it because you have tofirst, you have to write those
(10:03):
tunings down and keep themsomewhere where you'll be able
to find them later.
And also it's such a pain,Obviously, if we ever were to
perform these, as of course weall know to have to jump from
tuning to tuning to tuning overthe course of a set.
So for me, with the exceptionof one alternate tuning.
I'm just playing in drop D's oneverything, so it's it is going
to be easier when it comes timeto you know, cram and relearn
(10:24):
these for me so that's you saidon this album.
Pretty much everything you'redoing is drop d drop d is yeah,
both these are in d.
There's a couple, a couple onesthat are in d, a d, e a d for
me, um, but yeah, otherwise it'sall drop these I've never
really gotten into alternativetunings that much.
James Elkington (10:41):
When we started I was pretty much playing in
standard or drop D.
It seemed also as a sort of acompositional tool.
That's kind of where I feelmost comfortable is in standard.
But this changed in about 2015,2016.
I started playing in DagCad andI made a couple of albums of
(11:02):
songs which are pretty much allin Daggad and I feel really
comfortable with that as atuning now.
So when we started playingtogether, I was more in daggad
than I was in standard.
I think maybe the nana cherrysong.
I went back to standard orsomething for that.
But, um, yeah, but the majorityof so I'll have to be going
between standard and dad gadwhen we actually play live.
Nick Grizzle (11:26):
God help us, I know I want to go back to that
rule.
Britannia tune what?
Uh, where did those songs comefrom?
You said it was a medley.
How many tunes are in that onesong that you guys put together?
Nathan Salsburg (11:40):
just two, so I don't know if it's is a medley.
Doesn't medley have to be threeor more?
James Elkington (11:46):
no, well, no, there's.
Nathan Salsburg (11:47):
I think that there might be a third part to
it that we wrote that, you and Iwrote yeah, yeah yeah, that's
right.
I think we sort of wrote somesort of bridge yeah, one came
from, oh lord, um, I have all ofthese lps of like seventies
Breton folk revival groups andthey all absolutely blend
(12:09):
together the titles.
I think this is like purple andfolk or something it's called,
where they had a tune that Isent Jim and I was like I'd love
to do this.
It's unidentified, it's justcalled like dance or something,
and I sent it to Jim and saidI'd love to do this and he was
like, oh, you know, pierre Ben,susan, does some, some does a
version of this.
We managed to, you know, make asynthesis of those.
(12:30):
And then there was the anotherpiece that was, unless I'm
getting this wrong I can'tremember mick hanley and mikhail
o'donnell's group and if youknow this record, it's the worst
band title of all time celticfolk weave from 1974.
It's like the guys from theBothy Band.
So Mick Canley was a soloartist and then Mikaela Donald
played in a band called Scarbraeand then the Bothy Band and
(12:51):
made those really great recordswith the fiddler Kevin Burke.
But anyway, there's a tune onthat record that also Jim knew
in some capacity on the CelticFolk Weave record and we managed
to just jam them together andthen put a bridge together.
Um, we give none of thisprovenance on the record.
It occurs to me.
Nick Grizzle (13:10):
No one gets any credits, no, where are the tunes
themselves from, like how oldare these tunes?
Nathan Salsburg (13:17):
great question.
Um, I have no idea.
I know they're both, you knowthey're both Breton tunes.
Um, I work sort of adjacent toI mean, I mean I work in, I work
in the folk, in folk music, butI don't play traditional music.
So there are people, of course,who can just hear something and
be like, oh yeah, that'sdefinitely like late 17th
century, you know that's it.
Nick Grizzle (13:35):
Let's go into the other, the other song that you
didn't write entirely BuffaloStance, the Nina Cherry tune.
How did that come up?
Nathan Salsburg (13:43):
Well it started .
How did that come up?
Well, it started.
It happened for me because Iwas playing the original for my
toddler and um was just like god.
The song was so great, it's sogreat, and there are all these
wonderful little melodicelements.
They're so catchy, they're sobeautiful.
Um, and I just sent it to jimand I was like we should do this
and jim said no bad idea, Iidea, I think that's a sane
(14:06):
response, you know.
James Elkington (14:09):
Yeah, it was also an instance of Nathan
saying, hey, let's do this.
Why don't you try and come upwith something?
You know Buffalo stance, youknow for acoustic guitar.
I was like, eh, there's a.
She has another song called, Ithink, the single that came out
after that because she was, Imean, really big in england.
You know, I remember seeing heron top of the pops when I was
(14:31):
teenager and loved that song andloved that.
That whole record is reallygood.
Nathan Salsburg (14:36):
Um, but she had another song after that called
manchild, which is much moresong like, and I was like let's
do manchild and nathan said, no,we can do, we can do this and
so literally, in a matter of Imean, I really I think it was an
hour after we discussed, youknow, initially had the back and
forth about it jim sent a demoof one guitar sort of tackling
(14:59):
the you know constituent melodicmost of the constituent melodic
elements, buffalo stance, I Ilost my mind.
It was so good, it was likeexactly what I so vaguely
imagined, um, and I listened toit over and over.
I remember where I was whenjim's text came in and I was
like I ran downstairs and mywife was like, listen to this,
let me just listen to it overand over.
James Elkington (15:19):
It was great we actually, we were both in,
weren't we both in kentucky?
Weren't we both in louisville?
I was in Michigan.
Oh, you were in Michigan,that's what it was.
So I was in Louisville, whereNathan lives, but he wasn't
there.
But even sometimes when I am inLouisville, my wife's family,
her parents, live in Louisville.
She's from Louisville, sosometimes when we are down there
(15:41):
we'll both be in the same cityat the same time but still not
get to see each other.
So I couldn't really rememberwhere where it was.
But yeah, you were in michigan.
But the the key to that was, Iguess, was just like I would
slowed it down with a view tospeeding it back up again.
But then I it's it soundedbetter just kind of moved down
(16:01):
tempo wise and, um, yeah, we'dhad I mean, we'd had, like we'd
had some luck before we did asmith's cover on our previous
album.
That was, I think that was myidea, but it might have been.
We're both big smith's fans, sowe might have even discussed it
.
But that that song, it hadoccurred to me that if you, you,
(16:23):
you could perform.
If you sort of slowed that downand finger picked it, it
actually sounded you, it wouldsound not unlike a john fahey
song or something.
You could still play the melodyand some of the guitar parts
and it would hang togetherpretty well.
So we already had a kind ofsystem from having done that and
we just tried to apply it tobuffalo stance, although you
(16:43):
have to use your imagination alittle bit more, I think, when
you're listening to it, to beable to hear where the the
parallels are but it'd be saidtoo that we're we don't want to
sound like john fahey songs.
So no, that was another, youknow but I hope, like with the
no, I wouldn't I wouldn't beable to sell anything to nathan
by saying, hey look, I've gotthis idea.
That sounds like john fahey.
(17:04):
That would be not.
It wouldn't get me anywhere,since, no matter what we do,
people are going to say likethis sounds like john fahey,
that's right but I have to, Ihave to resort to other things
if I want nathan to be on boardwith something like hey, this
bit it sounds kind of like themisfits, and then I'll be like,
oh yeah, that's cool.
Nick Grizzle (17:23):
Yeah, let's do that so Misfits cover next
record we actually.
James Elkington (17:29):
I mean, we nearly did do a Misfits cover,
didn't we?
Yeah, halloween.
Nathan Salsburg (17:33):
Halloween because Halloween in 2015, when
we did our last tour, we weretouring with Steve Gunn familiar
with Steve, our player andsongwriter, and he was we.
We talked about doing the threeof us from doing halloween and
it just uh, it was last minute.
We gotta get together and itwas a great regret of mine.
Nick Grizzle (17:50):
I'm a massive misfits fan, always have been
and we were playing on halloweenin chicago and I was like, ah,
I just always felt like a missedopportunity so, uh, when you're
arranging tunes I want to getinto this a little bit um, you
know, we can talk aboutarranging like other songs, like
the Nin Cherry Tune, but alsofor your own songs, because you
(18:11):
mentioned like one of you willcome with an idea or a fully you
know sketched out song, andthen how does the arranging go?
How much pre production do youdo, like sending files back and
forth, or is it just hey, let'sget together?
You've heard the song, let'ssee what comes out.
In this moment of three dayswhen we're recording together,
(18:33):
what is that process like foryou for arranging for two
guitars, like that?
James Elkington (18:39):
Well, one thing that we realized was that it's
really difficult for us to get afull read on what the other
person is doing unless we'reboth in the room together.
So there's actually no point ingetting too far down the road
with an arrangement.
Also, nathan and I play solo,so we're used to doing the whole
(19:00):
thing, whole thing.
And uh, I think in the when westarted out doing it because, um
, I was, I I started out writingtunes for our first album, like
10 years ago, and initially Ithink maybe I hadn't done a good
job of leaving enough space fornathan to be able to work in.
(19:20):
You know, I'd actually like geta song to a point where it was
presentable almost as a solopiece, and then it doesn't
really leave very, very muchspace to work in.
So we've gotten better atcoming up with an idea and only
getting so far with it.
You know, leaving the door opento anything changing, or
(19:44):
there's even some things open toanything changing, or there's
even some things.
I remember writing some stuffwhere I'd be playing a melody
and there would be like aharmony to it or whatever and,
um, just simplifying my guitarpart just to the just to single
note stuff, so that Nathan hasroom to move around, and he does
that with me too with his ideas.
I will occasionally be like uh,can you not play so much there
(20:08):
so that I can do this?
Nathan Salsburg (20:10):
or stop playing that low note there, I'm going
to play that one you know, whichdoes require a little bit of
just rethinking one's approach,because again, we don't get to,
I don't get to play with anyother.
I play with my wife, who's aguitar player, but she's a
fairly minimal guitar player andum it is.
It's a really fun experience inum, you know, not minimalism
(20:33):
but in reducing one's you know,I'm just a footprint reducing
one's fingerprint.
You might say just playing lessbecause it does sound better.
You don't want to hear twoguitars like going, you know
yeah, that's, that's that's.
James Elkington (20:45):
Another concern is that it's it can.
I mean it's, it's alreadypretty noodley, but the there's
the there's the potential for itto become kind of unlistenable.
Really, you know, like no funfor anyone and we would.
We're trying to write songsreally is what we're trying to
(21:06):
do.
We just and and our we happento have the same voice, which is
acoustic guitar, so, um, tryingto make those work together is
it's really great actually.
I mean, we haven't played thatmany shows.
We only played about a week ofshows, and there was a long time
ago now but, but, um, it'sreally fantastic to be playing
(21:27):
with someone who can shoulderthe burden.
You know, I can actually likestop playing if I need to, and
and know that Nathan will beable to carry on.
That's a huge, because I'm usedto playing on my own.
Nick Grizzle (21:40):
He's used to playing on his own too so I mean
you, you mentioned at first youwould write jim, you would
write almost fully formed songs,and he had to dial it back, you
know, knowing that both of youhave that ability to write a
song that is fully formed forone guitar.
Um, you know playing devil'sadvocate a little bit here, why
(22:05):
write what may seem like anincomplete song just to record a
duo?
You know what?
What is, what is the fun ofthat, you know?
James Elkington (22:15):
oh, it, just it goes.
It ends up being a completelydifferent thing than I'd be able
to come up with by myself.
It's like um, the, the processthat we have is so fun to to
work with and it's, if I could,if I could generate that, if I
felt like I could generate thaton my own, I I would, but um,
(22:40):
but uh, no, this is somethingthat like really, we found that
the more space we leave in theideas, um, and the more the then
, the more the other person canget to grips with it and
actually the the music is betterand it gets done quicker.
It's like um, you just have toreally like leave that, leave
that space.
(23:00):
Um, we both still do things onour own and they sound very
different.
This is we.
We have, like a particular.
We were surprised actually, wehadn't played together for so
long, but when we playedtogether for the um the uh
aforementioned uh performance um, we were surprised how quickly
(23:21):
we got back into it.
We have developed a little bitof language and a way of working
for ourselves, and it's a wayof working that doesn't.
I don't do that with anyoneelse.
I don't have that with anyoneelse.
Nick Grizzle (23:34):
So, Nathan, for you in the songwriting process,
would you say you kind of have asimilar thought in that you
know it's just the songs end upbetter, or is there any kind of
twist in there that you wantedto add to that?
Nathan Salsburg (23:47):
I will say that when I I've gotten better at
this over the years, but I Ithink that I've been guilty in
the past.
Guilty, I think.
Maybe I've been slightly.
I've changed my mind about thebest way to be a composer and in
years past I've written a lotof pieces that I think just kind
of kitchen sink approaches.
I just couldn't stop coming upwith ideas and so I just felt
(24:08):
like, while I'm here, I can addthis and I can add this and I
can add this, and songs justtended to get.
They just got, I don't knowabout busy, but there will be a
lot of parts.
I happen to be working on apiece right now.
That's like one piece, that'slike 28 or I mean it's
ridiculous, but it's hopefully.
Hopefully it'll work.
We'll see.
Um, but when it comes to runningwith jim, what's what's been,
what's really rewarding, is thatI don't feel like I need to
(24:31):
come up with everything.
I can come up with two parts Ilove playing.
Bring them to jim, and not onlywill he devise some really
interesting you know countervoicings or whatever else to
flesh out the sort of minimalthing that I brought, but he'll
spark ideas in me and you know asong.
It's not just like there'ssomething that Jim is playing
and then he'll bring to me and Iwrite my part and we're done.
(24:53):
Ideas are still coming, thesong still takes a shape that
would not have been foreseen.
It's not just like adding asecond part, um and so, and I
really like.
I really like that because forme it does mean it's kind of.
It's just less, less of aburden, it's less of a
compositional burden.
I don't feel like I have tocome.
You know, all the ideas don'thave to be, doesn't have to be
finished before I get there.
Nick Grizzle (25:13):
That's just I want to change gears a little bit
and get into gear.
What guitars are you guysplaying on this record?
James Elkington (25:20):
when we started , I had like a sort of um
entry-level martin it had a hada d prefix.
Then, oh no, it had a one suffix, that was.
It was like a, it was like atriple o, one or an om1 or
something like that and um, andthat was a nice acoustic guitar
for me.
At the time I was like I wasquite, I was quite pleased with
(25:42):
that and it recorded okay.
But the first really niceacoustic guitar that I got was
the Santa Cruz OM that I haveand that's the guitar that is on
this record, which I'll comeback to.
That's why that guitar ismostly on this record.
But when I play on my own I havean old J-50 that I really love
(26:04):
and the thing that I love aboutit the most is it doesn't care
what I want to do, it just playsthe way it plays and it fights
back a lot and it's kind of abeast and I just always like how
it makes me play.
So that's like my more favoriteguitar.
(26:24):
I also have a Waterloo that Ireally that I really like.
Too much of a mismatch between.
Nathan has two nice guitarsthat sound fairly similar and if
(26:45):
I play my J 50 on my waterlooit sounds like I'm playing like
a completely differentinstrument from him in a not
great way.
Sounds lesser somehow.
It's almost like the J 50 likecompletely needs to be in its
own space to work, but when it's, when it's put up against
nathan's guitar, it didn't soundthat great.
So I ended up going back to theom, which is what's on the
(27:07):
second record, and um playedthat pretty much the whole time
it's worth saying that the omhas a handle.
Nathan Salsburg (27:13):
Sorry, it doesn't make sense.
It has a moniker, it has a name.
Oh, it does have a name and itsname is stinky because it was
bought in louisville.
Uh, I, a guy, actually jim'smother-in-law went and picked it
up and brought it to my houseto bring to him, I think was
what went, and the guy had thisis.
James Elkington (27:32):
this is what happened.
I bought it on ebay.
It was the most expensiveguitar I'd ever bought and I
bought it on eBay.
I was really, I was reallynervous about it.
I've been emailing with the guy, but Nathan and the guy was in
Louisville and so Nathan livesin Louisville.
I called Nathan and said canyou go over there and check this
guitar out and see if it's good?
(27:55):
So he's like fine.
Nathan Salsburg (27:59):
I didn't go over.
Remember, didn't't it, didn'tit happen that your mom, your,
your mother-in-law, brought itto my house to play?
Somehow she got involved no, no, no.
James Elkington (28:07):
You went to the house.
No, I didn't.
You went to the, you did.
And then you sat and you calledme and you said no, you.
You said this is good.
And then I hit the buy itbutton and then you sat there
and waited for it to work on itto come up on his phone
recollection of this, zerorecollection.
okay, so that was part one, andthen I think you took it home.
(28:31):
Acoustic guitar fans love thisstuff.
They were like tell us moreabout stinky j Jim, this is gold
, this is acoustic guitar gold.
You took it home and then mymother in law picked it up from
you and a friend of a friend ofhers was meeting her daughter in
Indianapolis the following day.
So she drove to Indianapolisbecause her daughter was from
(28:53):
Chicago and she went toIndianapolis with his guitar and
gave it to the daughter.
And the daughter drove to myhouse and handy minuteapolis
with this guitar and gave it tothe daughter.
And the daughter drove to myhouse and handed me this guitar
within 24 hours of me buying it.
It was in my hand and it hadchanged hands four times, but it
did not lose any of thefragrance that this man had worn
(29:14):
so we need to get into that.
Nick Grizzle (29:17):
where, where did the stinky name come from, right
so?
Nathan Salsburg (29:20):
let's go back to that.
He was heavily cologned.
Nick Grizzle (29:24):
So are we talking like a Tom Ford or like a Brute
for Men?
Like what level of cologne?
James Elkington (29:30):
It was kind of Brute-esque, wasn't it?
It was Brute-y.
Here's what I think happened.
You know how we all put oncologne.
You know we'd splash it onplays uh, heart gold, and then
he's, he's hitting the clubanyway.
I think that the the processfrom going like this oh you
(29:50):
can't.
Nathan Salsburg (29:51):
No, people don't know what you're doing.
Nick Grizzle (29:53):
It's a podcast so yeah, so you're putting on
aftershave, right slapping it on.
James Elkington (29:57):
I'm slapping the aftershave on and then I'm
gripping the Santa Cruz manfullyand imbuing it with this.
I think it must have drunk thewood, must have drunk some of
the aftershave or whatever and Iwould let it gas off for like
10 days at a time and think itwas fine, and then I'd put it in
the case for like a day andwhen I'd open the case I'd be
(30:20):
back in the club.
Nathan Salsburg (30:23):
It still stinks .
I mean it's gotten better, butit does still have a.
James Elkington (30:25):
I don't think I can smell it anymore.
Maybe it's just part of me now.
Did you smell it?
Nathan Salsburg (30:30):
when you were here?
Oh yeah, I smelled it when wewere there last time.
And how long ago was this?
Long enough for me tocompletely forget going to this
guy's house?
I have zero recollection ofthis.
James Elkington (30:44):
probably 12, 12 years ago, 13 years ago
probably 12 or 13 years ago,something like that.
Nick Grizzle (30:48):
Oh my gosh it's like when you walk into someone
else's house and you can smelltheir house and they?
They don't know because they'rein it all the time.
Right, that's what the guitarfeels like to me.
James Elkington (30:59):
Yes, nathan comes here and he can smell my
guitar.
Nathan Salsburg (31:07):
He doesn't like it.
Funny actually I'm pivoting tome now I play a Bourgeois J-O-M
like their jumbo O-M that Jimand I drove all over Chicagoland
like 13 or 14 years ago lookingfor, not realizing that was.
This was a guitar.
But it was time for me toupgrade um from like a you know
(31:27):
just an entry-level decent, youknow 800 or something you know
entry-level guild dreadnought.
My dad bought me from my yeah,from my um high school
graduation and we found thisbourgeois.
It was set up for like a like aheavy duty flat picker.
Like the action was intense,the belly was kind of gnarly.
It's currently just beenfinished being worked on for
(31:48):
like the fourth time in fouryears.
It's not.
It's not a super happy guitar,but it is like it's.
I love it.
It feels so great.
I've gotten it where I want it.
It sounds fantastic.
It it sounds fantastic.
It records fantastic.
It's really versatile.
That guitar I bought a Carruraflight case for some years ago.
It's like a Thai company.
(32:08):
Some guy I knew was like theirAmerican agent gave me a deal
and they use, I guess, inThailand like the most intense
hide glue you can imagine andlike my, that guitar for 14
years has just stunk likebasically a taxidermied animal.
I mean, the high glue is so, sointense and it's let up not at
all.
So we both have our umparticularly, you know, noisome
(32:30):
instruments.
James Elkington (32:31):
They're marked with theirs I can't smell that,
obviously because I'm in a fogof brute the whole time, so I
don't I've.
I don't know what he's talkingabout, but I'm sure it's awful.
Nick Grizzle (32:41):
So is that the guitar, the hide, glue, scented
treasure?
Is that what's on this album?
Yeah, no, it's not.
Yeah, no, it is.
James Elkington (32:50):
It is.
I thought it was in the shop.
I thought you played thebourgeois, so Nathan also has a
bourgeois, om right?
Nathan Salsburg (32:58):
Wait, maybe you're right.
Was it in the shop then?
Because it had a really bad.
It had a bridge that peoplekept like not fixing.
James Elkington (33:05):
I mean basically that guitar exploded
about five times now, so itseems more likely to me that you
brought the backup, which?
Nathan Salsburg (33:15):
also records great, yeah, the OM.
I can't even remember.
Now, that's really, really it'sfunny.
Stephanie Campos (33:20):
You mentioned that that's the end of part one.
The conversation continues onpatreon.
Visit patreoncom slash acousticguitar plus to get access.
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