June 27, 2024 • 48 mins
Does playing acoustic guitar provide benefits beyond the joy and satisfaction of making music? Join music wellness specialists Michelle Qureshi and Ian Wilkerson to learn about a range of music therapy experiences and explore the physical, emotional, spiritual, and clinical benefits of playing and listening to acoustic music.
Thank you to Strings By Mail for sponsoring this episode. Explore guitar strings and special offers at stringsbymail.com.
Additional Resources:
- Michelle Qureshi is a classically trained guitarist, multi-instrumentalist, composer, Reiki Master, practicing yogi, student of Shamanism, and presenter of sound experiences. Learn more at michellequreshi.com.
- Ian Wilkerson is a board certified music therapist, breathwork coach, guitarist, singer-songwriter, and the founder of Bay Area Music Therapy.
- Read the "Possible Mechanisms for the Effects of Sound Vibration on Human Health" article referenced in this episode.
Support the show:
The Acoustic Guitar Podcast theme music is composed by Adam Perlmutter and performed for this episode by Jeffrey Pepper Rodgers.
This episode is hosted by Nick Grizzle and E.E. Bradman, produced by Tanya Gonzalez, and directed and edited by Joey Lusterman. Executive producers are Lyzy Lusterman and Stephanie Campos Dal Broi.
The Acoustic Guitar Podcast is produced by the team at Acoustic Guitar magazine, including:
- Publisher: Lyzy Lusterman
- Editorial Director: Adam Perlmutter
- Managing Editor: Kevin Owens
- Creative Director: Joey Lusterman
- Digital Content Director: Stephanie Campos Dal Broi
- Digital Content Manager: Nick Grizzle
- Marketing Services Manager: Tanya Gonzalez
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Joey Lusterman (00:00):
Welcome to the Acoustic Guitar Podcast.
I'm Joey Lusterman.
Does playing acoustic guitarprovide benefits beyond the joy
and satisfaction of making music?
In seeking to answer thatquestion, we learn about a range
of music therapy experiencesand explore the physical,
emotional, spiritual andclinical benefits of playing and
listening to music.
Hosts Nick Grizzle and EltonBradman are joined by guests
(00:23):
Michelle Qu Koreshi and IanWilkerson.
Michelle Qureshi is aclassically trained guitarist,
multi-instrumentalist, composer,practicing yogi, student of
shamanism and presenter of soundexperiences.
And Ian Wilkerson is aboard-certified music therapist
with dual degrees from BerkleeCollege of Music, a breathwork
coach, guitarist andsinger-songwriter and the
(00:44):
founder of Bay Area MusicTherapy.
Before we dive into thisfascinating discussion, I'd like
to take a moment to thank oursponsor for this episode.
Strings by Mail.
Strings by Mail (00:54):
Stuck in a rut, just not feeling it.
Get inspired by new strings.
New strings sound better, areeasier to play and are more in
tune, so change them or upgradethem.
At Strings by Mail, we have thestrings you need to hit all the
right notes.
Choose from over 6,000 stringsfrom 75 manufacturers.
Use our string filter or callone of our expert players to
(01:16):
help find your perfect set, yourmusic, your strings, delivered
fast.
Strings by Mail.
Nick Grizzle (01:23):
You can learn more at stringsbymailcom so first
(02:02):
thing I wanted to ask ian I'mgoing to start with you on this
one what initially drew you tothe guitar, and can you briefly
tell us a little bit about whatpulled you toward the area of
music that you're now working in?
Ian Wilkerson (02:18):
I'd say what pulled me to the guitar was my
mom and dad playing all of thegreat music from the 60s and 70s
.
When I was a young kiddo, youknow, just growing up with a
couple of rock and rollerhippies who you know so the
Beatles, jimi Hendrix, dylan allof the great music that I grew
(02:40):
up listening to from my mom andmy dad.
That's pretty much how I firstgot the guitar.
And then what really did it wasthe.
The.
The deal was my uncle.
He gave me my first electricguitar, so that was my first
instrument.
It was a bc rich rave.
It was really, really heavy.
So I appreciated my firstacoustic after that.
(03:04):
For sure what what pulled youtoward the area of music you now
work in.
I come from a family of healersand integrative practitioners
and even MDs.
Some of the people in my familyare MDs Like literally.
I have like 10 chiropractors inmy immediate family.
My dad's a chiropractor, my momwas a sexologist and a tantrica
and a Reiki and breathworkpractitioner.
(03:26):
My sister my older sister had inher younger life worked with
special needs and in highschools, and then what really
drew me to it was when Irealized the power of music to
bring people together incommunity and help them grow and
find their own wellness.
And so I did that.
And in junior high and highschool I would take my guitar to
(03:46):
the special educationclassrooms and I would.
I would go join the special youknow special day class,
bungalow and on sixth period orlunch and I would jam with the
kiddos.
And I think that's really wasthe beginning of the seed that
was planted.
I had no idea at that pointthat I would pursue a degree and
career in music therapy, butthat was the beginning of it.
Nick Grizzle (04:09):
Michelle, what drew you to the guitar initially
and what pulled you toward thearea of music you now work in?
Michelle Qureshi (04:16):
Sure, well, when I was very young I just
seemed to have this affinity forthat instrument.
You know something about thosestrings just pulled me in.
But of course, you know, it wasjust toy guitars.
We go to the you know shop andget a treat, and I just get
these toy guitars that wouldinevitably be broken or maybe,
you know, destroyed in some way.
(04:37):
And then visuals the cartoonwith the Beatles came out, you
know, like similar to you.
The cartoon with the Beatlescame out, you know, like similar
to you.
There were the you know 60s and70s and very guitar focused
kind of pop music and justreally cool stuff going on.
But I was still just you knowlittle and attracted to it.
And not until I was 13 years oldI bought my first guitar and
(05:01):
started just you know immersiveself-teaching myself how to play
all kinds of frettedinstruments and just started
collecting them.
And when it was time forcollege, you know, I was a
little bit like not encouragedbecause I had a really different
family background than Ian andnobody was really into music,
(05:25):
nobody really knew that path orthe healing arts in any sense.
So that's been kind of a moresolo journey for me when I
started out in college it wasfor psychology.
I got three semesters in and Iwas like I was.
I was dying inside because Ididn't have that creative outlet
.
And I changed course and Istarted from scratch as a
classical guitarist and that wasmy training, you know, to learn
(05:48):
that and that you know most ofthe other students you know they
started playing at three yearsold and it was a very, very
interesting thing.
But I'm absolutely glad I didit and that foundation, I
believe, laid the groundwork forwhat I've come to with music
now, this many years later.
(06:09):
For the last dozen years I'vebeen playing and making my own
music and presenting like soundimmersions with all the
different instruments, thehealing instruments.
So that healing aspect I cameby through the process of kind
of doing it myself attendingyoga, playing guitar for yoga,
(06:32):
then attending the classes anddoing more and more spiritual
expansion, which expanded mymusic, and being able, because I
had that foundation, to do thisall in what feels like a very
intuitive approach now andthat's you know that passion is
there and it kind of just passesthrough the intellect.
(06:53):
So, briefly, I don't thinkabout it now, I just play and I
love to do that.
E.E. Bradman (06:58):
I would love to ask what?
How do you define?
We're thinking about terms?
Ask how do you define we'rethinking about terms?
Sound healing, music, therapy.
I'd love to hear your opinionson the difference between those
two things, or is there adifference?
Ian Wilkerson (07:11):
Yeah, there's two different.
Well, there is and there isn't.
So you know there's this whole.
There's different pedagogies,there's different, higher, you
know, opportunities foreducation and different
curriculums and schools andprograms.
You can get a degree in soundhealing and you can get a degree
in music therapy and they areseparate pedagogies and I tend
(07:33):
to explain it to my clientele,like and to others, that in the
sound healing world, myunderstanding and I do integrate
some sound healing into my work, but it's more of a passive
experience where the recipientreceives the sound and the
acoustics and the vibrations andit's a relaxation experience or
anxiety reduction or guidedimagery through music, and it's
(07:53):
a more passive experience.
And as a music therapist, thedifference for me in my training
and my practice is that mine isinteractive.
Interactive and my goal in well, 80% of the time, my goal in my
clinical work is to engage myclientele in developing an
active relationship andparticipation in music making
(08:17):
and it's through therelationship of making music
with a skilled clinician ortherapist that the therapeutic
relationship is scored and thatopportunities for change and
growth and whatever it is thatwe're working on wellness,
anxiety reduction, habilitativegoals, impulse control, learning
(08:37):
, cognitive TBI, rehabilitation,learning how to talk again-
whatever it is that we'reworking on.
it's through the act of beingengaged in music making.
And then I'd say there's alsotraining in music therapy.
When you go to get a degree,you also have subspecialties
within being board certified asa music therapist.
There's subspecialties that arelike the Bonnie guide to you
(08:59):
know, guided music, relaxation,guided imagery through music.
So there are passiveexperiences that I do include
sound opportunities like that.
But that's the big difference.
When I get together with kiddos, we play, we run around, we
jump, we move, we dance, we sing, we scream, we breathe deep in
some instances, and so I thinkthat's a notable difference in
(09:20):
terms of the education I got andalso my clinical practice.
Michelle Qureshi (09:25):
So that's really interesting to hear and
really you know a differenttrained approach.
I'm trained as a musician, sothat's not really.
There's not really amethodology I use to it.
Beyond that, approaching itpassionately, and I typically,
let's say, in these soundimmersions, I call my thing a
(09:47):
harmonic sound immersion and Iwouldn't say that it's passive,
because it's an experiencethat's being shared and
oftentimes I'll do them in yogastudios or whatnot, and you know
a couple dozen people maybe arein Shavasana or any comfortable
(10:08):
position For about an hour myimprovisation on everything from
, you know, my guitars to flutes, and I'm looking around my room
the gongs, the chimes, thedidgeridoo gongs, the chimes,
(10:29):
the didgeridoo, just all thesereally healing instruments that
I kind of just use to create anexperience.
They don't touch an instrumentin this instance.
They are just in some kind ofmeditative space that benefits
them, that heals them inwhatever way they are needed.
I akin it more to a Reikiexperience really, because I
feel like the vibrations and themusical energy, just through
(10:51):
pure music and connection withthe people who are present, that
kind of guide me.
What I'm playing, thatexperience takes them wherever
they needed to go, the more of ameditator they already are, or
you know, plugged into certaindisciplines, the experiences
just seem to be more astounding.
(11:14):
On the other hand, you know,I've done it for a group of
students on the spectrum and oneof the most vivid experiences
happened by to one of the aideswho were there with the kids.
She literally, you know tearsin her eyes experiencing the
(11:35):
connection with a son she hadjust lost.
You know, and some of thesestories are just so, so amazing
through the power of music.
I don't start them out saying,you know, here's, here's the
love tone, the 528 hertz, youknow, or this is going to help
your hips, or something likethat.
I'm just kind of, almost, in away, naively playing and
(12:00):
creating a sound experience.
That again, I don't think it'spassive, but it's not, you know,
in the sense as you'reexplaining, where you know you
get up and move around and dothat.
So I continue to do that, I'vebeen doing that for about five
years and so in that way, that'sthe experience, I know, through
(12:23):
these instruments, theexperience as healing through
just the guitar, that's kind ofa different and generally very
intimate thing as well.
Ian Wilkerson (12:33):
Beautiful In terms of the passive statement I
made, like and no intention to,you know, diminish the value of
sound healing at all.
I was just trying to create amotoric, clinical difference in
terms of like the engagement andthe level of interactivity,
because it's not they're notlaying in a state and receiving
the sound Right, but in terms ofquantum mechanics and my
(12:55):
understanding of energy andvibrational frequency and all of
those aspects, absolutely nomatter what we do in our
existence, there's tons ofinteraction on a more
microscopic level.
So you know, when I do soundhealing in my work as well, I
totally honor and understand andlove that there's a lot of
(13:17):
interaction going on that I'mnot seeing with my eyes.
So yeah, just wanted to addthat.
E.E. Bradman (13:26):
Beautiful, beautiful, beautiful.
I love there's so muchbeautiful crossover between what
you do.
Ian Wilkerson (13:33):
There really is.
There really is, yeah.
Michelle Qureshi (13:35):
And interesting, because the
training is quite differentreally.
I mean, yeah, we're both inthat funnel of music, but you
know the methodologies youemploy and the way I intuit
music, music and what it does.
Nick Grizzle (13:51):
it is it is pretty interesting yeah yeah
absolutely elton, like you weresaying, there's very different
ways of using this.
The idea of healing, but uh,it's, it's all coming back to,
like music is so powerful.
You know and I wanted to getyour take on and, mich, we could
start with you on this one Someof the things that music, and
(14:14):
maybe specifically like guitar,if you want to get into that can
do for one's overall health.
Maybe somebody doesn't say Ispecifically need X, y or Z,
just in general.
What are maybe some of thethings that you've seen or that
you know of that music has thepower to kind of affect one's
(14:34):
overall health and if there'sanything specific with guitar
that might be in that realm too.
Michelle Qureshi (14:40):
Sure, yes.
Well, first of all, for for me,guitar playing is a meditation,
Um, and when I present it, forinstance, I'm really done with
kind of playing the background,gigs or the, you know, the wine,
wine cellars or whatever.
(15:00):
So what I found as far as otherthan just a concert or sound
immersion, I tend to play, youknow, for different worship
services, because you have thesilence and the focus, and when
I'm playing for that I can seethe impact.
It's almost like offering aprayer, you know, I mean I see
it in a secular way for me, butI am in different houses of
(15:22):
worship, so it has taken in asever.
But so, from what I offer, Isee it in that way, you know I'm
, I'm sharing a meditation or aprayer or um, always within that
as a story, just kind ofwrapped around the emotions of
of the piece.
For me personally, theexperience and I hope I
(15:43):
understand the question how itimpacts me, Um, it's something.
Uh, if I'm away from it toolong, I can feel.
I can feel that, you know, myfocus is slipping and my soul
connection even a little bitslipping.
So I have to have that timethat is just purely
(16:03):
improvisational on theinstrument.
You know it's not like, oh, Ineed to practice this, or you
know, I need to finish writingthat, I need that just space to
create, and it just changes mymood, it grounds me and it, you
know it raises me up too, youknow.
So it gets it's that, you know,heaven and earth kind of pull,
(16:26):
and so it's been a reallyimportant part of my life.
There's been times where, youknow, I've been away for quite a
while of the instrument but,like I said, the last dozen
years, you know, I've beenpretty solidly there making
music, creating and sharing it.
And the it's not just a, youknow, it's a physical thing,
(16:51):
it's a mental thing, it's almosta whole mind-body complex for
me, you know, because there's away it feels right, it's very
tactile, there's a way thatsound comes into you and comes
through you and then there's theemotion behind it, so that all,
(17:13):
just, you know, the it justkind of keeps, uh, adding up to
such an experience, and when youcan share it with others,
that's fantastic.
But I also just need some ofthat for me.
So so, yeah, I haven't taughtfor ages, I, so I can't really,
(17:52):
you know, I have to draw on somememory to see the impact of,
you know the accomplishments itoffers someone trying to learn
the instruments, thesatisfaction, the love of
creating something you know justwith your own hands and heart.
So I would say those benefitsare the big ones that I've
observed in the past in teaching.
And just, you know everybodythat plays for, or let's say,
plays from the heart, not fromthe ego, for, or let's say,
place from the heart, not fromthe ego.
People hear that, peopleconnect with that.
The ego stuff gets very messyin connecting but you know,
(18:16):
heart to heart, you know youtouch each other's soul.
Ian Wilkerson (18:22):
Yeah, and how about you?
Well, just in my interest totry to bring it back into the
acoustic.
You know, in my clinical workI'll speak about the people I
serve and my mission in life andto help people grow through
music and relate to themselvesand others.
And the thing that is one ofthe biggest hurdles for me in my
clinical practice is how Iintegrate this technological
(18:47):
phenomenon in terms of screentime and all of the beat ready,
quick, instant gratification,short attention spans, like
everybody thinks they're a beatproducer, everybody's gonna use
electronics to create music andit's at everybody's fingertip
and so it also.
You know, in some ways it alsobrings them farther away from
their somatic self, from theirenergy, from their frequency.
(19:08):
And on the other hand, it kindof philosophically it brings
them closer away from theirsomatic self, from their energy,
from their frequency and on theother hand, it kind of
philosophically it brings themcloser to the quantum mechanic
world because you know, like youknow, technology can converge
with the energy too.
Michelle Qureshi (19:18):
But anyway, not to get too heady on that.
Ian Wilkerson (19:20):
But, like, the thing I'm saying is that I
really appreciate acousticguitars and the acoustic
instruments because when I'mworking with people in music, I
want to get them engaged inlearning and making music and
experiencing music and beingcrafts and, like, my goal is to
anybody.
There's no prerequisite ormusic knowledge and when you
come and work with music therapy, I'm your coach and it's my job
(19:40):
to help the other person findaccess to expressing through
music, to using the language ofmusic, and they don't have to
have any background or training.
And it's my responsibility tohelp create a container that is
safe and that they can findtrust in music so that they can
use that medium to express andto relate to me and to
(20:01):
themselves.
And so the beautiful thing is,when they come in and they're
like, oh, they want like easyaccess, I always have to like
grapple with, like, okay, how amI going to bring them back to
the acoustic?
Like I want to just use thedrum and my acoustic guitar and
I don't want it to be aboutproducing a beat.
Or you know, when I'm in teentreatment and I'm working with
suicidal ideation and OCD andlike mental, you know, moderate
(20:22):
to mild mental health challengeswith teens, like you know, I
want to bring it to the acoustic, but everybody wants to use the
recordings of their favoritemusic and stuff.
So I really love the acousticguitars ability.
Once I find my in and I cancreate that buy-in from the
people I'm working with and I'lluse technology and I'll use the
(20:45):
screen or I'll use Spotifyplaylists and, like, explore
their favorite music.
But then I bring it back to theacoustic.
I'm okay, okay, well, let's doit, you and me, like, let's turn
the recording off, let's pullup the ultimate guitar tabs and
let's look at how the song goes,let's look at the lyrics and
analyze them and let's play iton our acoustics.
Oh, you don't know how to playacoustic?
(21:05):
Well, here's a bass.
Let me show you how chordtuning on the acoustic and they
don't have to know anythingabout fretting.
But I can be like okay, well,the key of the song is in C and
I know I can craft an experiencefor the person where they don't
have to have the fine motorskill, but I can give them an
instrument that's intentionallypremeditated and set up like an
acoustic guitar tuned to open Dchord and I can play.
(21:30):
Here comes the sun in the key ofD by the Beatles and they can
strum that open D chord throughthe whole song and it just
sounds cool, even when I'm notplaying a D, because it's a poly
chord and and it's still withinthe tonal center.
And they feel the success andthe reward.
And that's the importance ofthe acoustic instrument for me
Um, and being able to adapt andbe malleable with the instrument
(21:51):
and change the tuning realquick and give the client
something to hold and to feelthe vibration.
Versus if I have an electricguitar, you know they might get
a different tactile somaticexperience from the electric.
It's still going to bevibrational from the speaker but
it's really powerful for me tobe able to give a kiddo on the
spectrum with sensoryintegration issues you know, who
(22:12):
struggles with his sensorialsystem to like give them a
guitar and have them hold it andhave them play an open low D.
I drop it down, turn it down sothat the vibration is more
robust and help them feel thattactilely.
Nick Grizzle (22:26):
So that's some ways in which the acoustic
really supports my work andempowers me and my clients to
have greater access to theexperience have you experienced
(22:52):
people telling you like, wow,this helped with this particular
thing that I'm working on, or Ifelt this way that I haven't
felt in a while or haven't everfelt because of an acoustic
instrument experience?
Ian Wilkerson (23:01):
Oh, absolutely.
And I can give you one that'seven more magical than like a
verbal self-report.
Like you know, verbalself-report is great, but, like
when I work with minimallyresponsive individuals who might
be in a vegetative state, orwhen I work with I also work
with hearing impairedindividuals.
So, you know, being able to andthis can also be really
(23:21):
prevalent with like a reallygood subwoofer, but bringing it
to the acoustic when I have,like a hearing impaired client,
um, and it's also relative tolike ASD and on sensory systems,
because they get thatvibrational impact.
But, yes, there's been a clientI can think of one who you know
was very disengaged and I'm, youknow, trying to pull out all
(23:43):
the tools out of my, my tool bagto try to like, elicit some
interaction or some robustfacial affect or something that
shows me they're, they're,they're connecting to me in some
capacity, um, beyond just theenergy of being in the same room
, um, and and the moment that Icame close enough to where they
could feel the acoustic, likethe vibrational feeling of the
(24:05):
acoustic, and then, moreover, assoon as I like they, you know,
I gently invited and elicited.
I like they, you know, I gentlyinvited and elicited and asked
if, if you know, with littlegesture, hand over hand support,
like you know, can bring theirhand over to the acoustic and I
you could put their hand on theacoustic and then I would play
some chords.
And the moment that they feltthe guitar and it was like a
light bulb went off, like oh,now I'm.
(24:28):
They were brought into theexperience more than they were
before and it was reallyimpactful because prior to me
finding that, that, that door,that portal to get them to
connect with me and theexperience, they were a little
bit more aloof and kind of likeambivalent and like maybe
meandering in the room andexploring their sensory
environment, maybe meandering inthe room and exploring their
(24:51):
sensory environment.
And then, you know, once I wasable to bring us closer in
proximity and them onto theguitar, it just ignited a much
more, a deeper rapport and theconnection started to really
formulate.
E.E. Bradman (25:04):
Michelle, I'm curious.
You know I saw a picture of youwith a beautiful harp guitar
and just hanging out on Spotify.
Yes, and I'm so curious yourfeelings about acoustic
instruments in these settings?
Would you make the same music,the beautiful music that you do
(25:27):
on an electric Would?
Michelle Qureshi (25:29):
you make the same music, the beautiful music
that you do on an electric.
It's not the same on anelectric, I mean, you'll go
through my catalog and you'llfind pieces.
I love working with it too, butit's the vibration you know
you're holding, I think aboutwhen I'm holding the guitar and
playing this right against myheart chakra, you know, and you
just, and, whether it's a littleukulele or the guitar lely, you
(25:52):
know, I even have some Turkishand other instruments that are
part of, you know, thatconnection.
Now, not to say that thisbasket of flutes over I have
over here aren't beautiful forthe throat, chakra, you know,
they all have their place, butthe vibrating strings are, you
(26:12):
know, I mean, as soon as someonein history, you know, pulled
some, you know, held one length,another and gave it a pluck.
I mean there's something aboutthe uh, you know, chordophones
in general that are to me reallyheart-centered, heart-based.
Nick Grizzle (26:30):
Um, now, I may have gone on one of those
tangents we were talking about,but no, yes, I think we're right
, right in the zone becausewe're talking about guitars,
right like the specificallyplucked instruments right, right
.
Michelle Qureshi (26:44):
So that harp guitar, what?
What can be beautiful aboutthat is because of bass.
You know, the strings are onthe bass, they're unfretted, so
there's six that just go,descending from D, c, b all the
way down to F, which I usuallydrop down to E.
It's a little more practical.
But even when you're justplaying on those six strings
(27:07):
because you hit that justoccasionally you don't want
constant bass strings, it's toomuch.
Yeah, this it's still all justin this vibrational thing and it
feels really good, you know, itfeels good against your body.
I also have, over on this otherone, a guitar that's, it's not
a baritone, it's literally anoctave lower.
(27:28):
It's there, it's a like a nylonstring body and every string is
pitched an octave lower.
And I really respond to bass,you know, and, uh, that that
part of it really feels good too.
You know, um, so I'm with youon the acoustics of of saying
you know the beauty of thosevibrations.
(27:50):
The different frequencies havetheir, um, their colors.
You know, I get a little bit.
You know, different keys canbring colors to me and I I
really.
You know, it's all like on thespectrum of what we can see and
hear, but they all go beyondthat.
Nick Grizzle (28:06):
You know, are there different?
I know there's certainfrequencies that connect with
the human body in different ways, but is there in?
Michelle Qureshi (28:35):
general, something about lower pitched or
higher pitched frequencies thatkind of maybe activate certain
things in the body or certainthings in the brain that you've
seen or that you know aboutthrough research.
Well, research-wise I can'tspeak really clearly on that,
but I can touch upon the ideaabout the A440 kind of thing
being more of a mental stressorand that if you do drop things
down to A equals 432 hertzinstead I don't know how much of
(28:59):
that is the real or placebo,but it does feel better.
It just feels a little bit more.
And there's different researchand experiments on that kind of
thing.
But I think we're, you know,except for some of my tuning
bowls and other singing bowlsthat I have that are tuned to
432 and a couple of currentprojects, it's really hard to
(29:21):
get that, um, you know, in themainstream acceptable.
I think there's more and moremusic being played and written
in that.
But I know as as recently as uhbeing in Nashville at one of the
uh NAMM shows and listening toan audio engineering panel and
bringing this up afterward tothe guy you know it was an all
(29:43):
male session.
So I go up and I try to raisethe question you know, what
about 432?
.
And then he really rudely justsaid well, where's my tinfoil
hat?
So I knew that discussion wasdone.
You know, number one, you're awoman, and number two, oh, you
must be crazy.
So I mean it's not a new idea,Like it was just, I think I mean
(30:05):
maybe someone can correct me,but I think it was just in the
20th century that the 440 wasestablished as the you know the,
what do you call that?
The standard?
Yeah, but before I mean, andyou know, around the world,
(30:27):
that's.
That concept is also a littlebit crazy.
I mean, you go to Indonesia andevery gamelan orchestra is just
tuned to that village's senseof, uh, what works, and I, I
love those sounds, I mean thatis, and uh, you know, then we
leave even just the westernscales, uh, when you start
(30:49):
talking about different tunings.
Nick Grizzle (30:50):
So um ian, did you see a different response for
different types of frequencieswith people that you work with?
Ian Wilkerson (31:01):
Yes, absolutely.
I think the most prevalentaspect of this in my work, for
me and the people I work with,is that it's all individualized.
I have a hard time, you know,fully grabbing onto that there's
(31:22):
these rigid parameters for anyone person's physiology or
biometrics only because I'veexperienced such a spectrum with
regards to how differentfrequencies and sounds impact
different people I work with,and so I never try.
I don't typically take it forgranted.
I typically assess, you know,what response am I observing or
(31:47):
what response am I sensing withmy intuition if I'm doing more
energetic work, which I do dosometimes.
So if I'm, you know I'm abreathwork coach as well.
So I do a ton of breathworkwith people where it's just all
about the somatic and there's noexpectation for engagement
except their breath.
And so when I'm working withsomebody in their breath and I'm
using tones or I'm usingfrequencies, or if I'm working
(32:09):
with kiddos who have autism, orif I'm working with impulse
control, or if I'm working inTBI for neurological development
, I just experiment and I assesswhere the person is and what
kind of response am I observing.
What self-report are theygiving me?
Are they giving me feedback?
Are they verbally saying thatfelt good.
Are they telling me that itmade them feel more anxious?
(32:29):
Are they showing me that itmade them feel more anxious?
And then I recalibrate and Itry to adjust what it is.
I'm doing.
So, if I start out with 440 orif I start out with 432, if I do
an E flat exercise, I'm awareof those pitch prevalences, but
I always adjust and adapt basedon the feedback I'm getting.
And the frequencies are soprevalent, though, and
(32:54):
absolutely powerful, and I havea little thing of tuning forks
and, again, I never went to theSound Healing Institute and
absolutely powerful, um, and Ihave, uh, you know, a little
thing of tuning forks, and I'm,again, I never went to the sound
healing Institute, uh, but I'vedone some conferences and I've,
you know, the globe soundhealing Institute and on in the
Bay, I've, I've, I've, I'veattended those seminars and, um,
I love the work.
But, um, that's how I approachthe, the element of
psychoacoustics and kind of the,the, the vibrational frequency
(33:16):
awareness, as I assess and adapt.
And then I just because youasked the question again, I'm
not a research buff, but thereis a paper I've referenced
before and, you know, anybodycan go online and search under
the NIH website and there's agreat survey.
I just pulled it up right nowso I could tell your listeners.
There's a paper.
(33:38):
It's a narrative review ofresearch literature that maps
the landscape of the mechanismsof the effect of sound vibration
on humans, including thephysiological, neurological and
biochemical.
And it's the name of the paper.
It's a synthesis of all theresearch right.
It was put out in 2021 and it'scalled the Possible Mechanisms
for of sound vibration on humanhealth.
(34:00):
So if, like your listeners arelike yo, I want to know more
about how the neurology is beingmapped and how is the body
being measured, because you knowwe live in a very quantitative
world now where everybody wantseverything to be discreetly
measured, which is not my forte.
I'm like, totally processoriented and I'm all about being
(34:20):
adaptable and I'm integrative,but we do want results and
outcomes and insurance companieswant to be able to justify
payment.
So these are prevalent measuresto be aware of.
Yep, so that paper.
Nick Grizzle (34:37):
I'm going to scope that out both for the podcast
and personally later.
I love diving into thatresearch stuff and we'll throw
that link in the show notes aswell for anybody who wants to
read it.
Thank you for that, yeah.
Ian Wilkerson (34:51):
Can I add something personal, because I
haven't spoken much about myselfin terms of my own passion in
my artist life.
So I've been a recording artistmy whole life, since I was 16.
And you know, a lot of that hasbeen electric.
But just so for the sake ofyour listeners in this acoustic
world, me and another dad it'sbeen 10 years since I've put out
(35:12):
a commercial release and all ofmy prior releases for the most
part have been electric rockband, funk, jam rock,
singer-songwriter.
There's been a few acousticnumbers sprinkled in there, but
it's been a lot of like jam bandrock, pop stuff, right.
And I'm super stoked to say that, like within the next month and
(35:33):
a half I'm going to be droppingmy first EP in 10 years and
it's an acoustic duet recordedlive, old school, no overdubs.
We went in the studio and infour hours two dads sat face to
face with pop screens and micsand acoustics, mic'd, four
microphones and even a littletelephone mic over on the side.
(35:54):
That was like an old schooltelephone and we just recorded
three songs without any redosand, uh, we both sing harmonies
and we both play guitar andwe're and it's it's like
alternative rock, like inspiredby, like you know sound garden
and, like you know, owls andchains, kind of like the mtv
(36:15):
unplugged era um the golden era.
Dude like just oh my gosh, likethat stuff hits my heart.
But anyway, that is exciting.
The name of the band is calledFlow F-L-O-W.
Nick Grizzle (36:29):
Do you use techniques from your practice
when recording your own music?
Ian Wilkerson (36:33):
I do.
I'm very aware of my breathalways.
I'm always aware of trying tobalance my parasympathetic and
sympathetic nervous system.
However, I spend a lot of timein my sympathetic nervous system
.
I'm always on, I'm on like I'mjust always energized, right.
So it's a life challenge for me, a lifelong lesson, to learn
(36:55):
how to make space and slow down.
And I slow down in my art whenI'm making music and I slow down
when I'm playing my acousticand channeling creativity.
And the thing that's the mostbeautiful thing about my
experience in music making iswhen I write music.
I don't.
I songwrite often but I don'tever feel like I can lay
(37:18):
ownership to it, like I mightcopyright it because I've got a
mechanism through which I canand perhaps have some benefit to
that.
But like I don't, I really justchannel.
Like when I songwrite and Iwrite my acoustic, I'm very
aware of my breath.
Before I go into the studio, Idefinitely breathe.
I'll do some like nervous systemreset, cal recalibration,
(37:40):
things like breath of fire oryou know, this is like a
Kundalini or pranayama yogapractice where I'm like doing
really rapid nose breathing orI'll do shoulder shrugs, you
know stuff like that and andit's like it can be like a
one-minute thing or a two-minutething, where I just really burn
myself out, but it's like andI'm oxygenating, hyper
oxygenating my body, but it'slike and I'm oxygenating, hyper
oxygenating my body, but it'sthen afterwards I have that
(38:02):
surrender of like, ah yeah, likeafter a good workout or after
really good sex, or you know,like I mean, let's tell, let's
tell it like it is right, likeour bodies have biomechanical
responses to experiences, right,so you know, but just really
breathing deep and and then Idefinitely did that before
recording this album and then,like, when we screwed up and
(38:25):
we're like, oh man, we got to doanother take, I definitely
would like get up, walk around,breathe deep, just hold my
guitar in my body for a momentand like not play it and just
kind of connect with it.
Yeah, I don't know if I went ontoo big of a tangent, but I said
the S word on air, sorry.
Nick Grizzle (38:44):
And Michelle, how about you?
Michelle Qureshi (38:46):
Yes, absolutely, and you mentioned
many of those things.
Alternate nostril breathing isanother really good centering
one, you know, the breath offire, relaxation, and one thing
I have to do well, my studio isright in this other room and
that's where I record, so it canbe any time of day or night, as
(39:07):
long as you know all the mowersand leaf blowers and all that
BS is not out there on thestreet.
So I do the recording in there.
One thing I've really been justthe last few months paying
attention to is when you'rerecording, because, of course,
in this situation I'm theengineer and I'm the you know
(39:29):
producer and the performer, thecomposer, and my body can feel
so tight, you know, when I'mplaying, like, because it's not
like, oh you know, I'm goingover my budget.
It's like I'm going over myability to just focus and get
this right, because I, like,when I record, I like to play
(39:53):
straight through a piece.
You know I don't have the kindof studio to do the magic,
editing and slicing and all thisstuff, but I've been lately
been going through my body,especially from kind of like
from your hips and your legs,just making sure those muscles
are just, you know, loosened up,because that's where you know
(40:14):
my feet are on the ground, onthe floor and they're just like
you know, they're just plantedand you really, if I can at
least just kind of move with theguitar and still not, you know,
not get that wavering on themicrophone, but I find that to
be really important.
I'm not always in that flowstate when I'm recording.
(40:36):
That's ideal.
But there's just all thoseother factors, like you know.
Is this mic, is there a hum inmy, in this cable again, or, you
know, did I get the high enoughsignal, and and that kind of
thing.
So I'd like to take morerelaxation during the process.
You know we can do all the prepwe want before the process, but
(40:58):
we need to carry that throughso that just that magic can
happen in the performance.
So that's one thing.
Ironically, as Ian is mentioning, he's been on pause for a
decade with albums and he'susually doing electric guitar
and this kind of stuff.
Doing electric guitar and thiskind of stuff.
(41:25):
I, for the last 12 years, Ihave 14 albums out and a lot of
singles, and acoustic guitar isreal central to most of that
work, to quite a bit of thatwork, and in June I'm releasing
something that has so littleacoustic guitar in it.
It's not funny, you know.
It's just like flip thenarrative here on this, you know
it's.
It even has what's new for me.
I'm even like doing beats on itand it's, it's really.
(41:49):
I mean, I love it Because, youknow, when I write a piece for
guitar or piece comes through me, as you're saying, channeling,
it is a lot of that.
When a piece comes through forguitar, a lot of times it is
more melancholic or you know,especially the nylon strings, to
(42:09):
me they just have that tendency.
And what I love about this newalbum is it's a lot of
joyfulness and extended,extended joyfulness and just
lighter, lighter hearted um,like a joyful piece on the
guitar.
For me it's still just a threeminute experience, you know, and
it's like, oh, that's pretty,but that's pretty short, you
know.
So this is going to be, uh,really an interesting um release
(42:33):
for me and I wish you all theluck on on your release upcoming
as well.
E.E. Bradman (42:40):
I love this discussion because, you know,
before you guys got on, we wereall hanging out and we were
talking about, you know, music,healing music specifically.
And I was asking.
I was like there's a stereotypeof healing music as mellow,
kind of relaxing, kind of sleepy, and that's beautiful, there's
(43:03):
room for that.
And I just was thinking okay,so we have these two esteemed
artists who've really done a lotof thinking about this and who
really live this idea of healingmusic and healing through music
, of healing music and healingthrough music, and I was like,
is there something besides?
like very mellow 50 BPM acousticstuff, so I love hearing
(43:28):
everything you guys are saying.
Ian Wilkerson (43:29):
I just if I can say, like, so, absolutely true.
So in my work as a musictherapist it's all
individualized and it's allabout the client preferred
repertoire.
I'm not gonna come to someteenager who loves Lil Peep and
XX10C on and be like, well,sorry, dude, today we're doing
Garth Brooks and and, and we'regonna talk about how hard it is
in Garth Brooks life because,you know, no, no, I'm gonna be
(43:53):
like, what music do you like?
And I've had a kiddo on thespectrum teenager, high
functioning autism, and I'mdoing music therapy with them.
And we're doing skillacquisition and impulse control
with Slayer and Motorhead.
You know, and that's what calmshis nervous system.
He felt more regulated.
For whatever reason, hisphysiology, his nervous system
(44:15):
was like no, dude, don't playthree little birds with me by
Bob Marley.
I don't want to hear that.
But I love me some Motorhead.
And so you know, I, you know, asa, as a, as a trained music
therapist, I have to come to thetable like a chameleon.
I have to be able to go.
I call myself, I'm a genrehopper, so I have to be able to,
like, at the snap of a drop, belike, okay, motorhead, you know
(44:42):
.
And then the next moment, ahalf hour later, I'm working
with somebody, or even in thesame session they might be like
well, now it makes sense for usto do something slow.
So I have to really bend inbetween genres and when you're
doing music healing through theact of stoking their interest
and preference in terms of whatturns them on and like what
music they like yeah, all musicis healing.
(45:02):
It's what does they?
What do they like?
Nick Grizzle (45:04):
Michelle, what do you think about that?
The, the genre, uh, you know,doesn't have to be defined as as
a genre but, like healing music, can be individualized yes,
definitely it can.
Michelle Qureshi (45:16):
just in genres themselves, right?
They're just like marketingtools, you know, and we have to
abide by them.
You know, you're putting yourpiece on Spotify.
You've got to choose a genre,whether or not it has anything
to do with the music.
So that's a very limiting thing.
All music has potential to heal.
(45:38):
All music delivers what it needsto uh, as you, as you listen,
for the most part, I mean,there's a, there's a experience
of listening to something toprocess feelings that you can't
process without it.
You know, and it gets youthrough that A lot of times.
(45:59):
That can happen with, uh, youknow, liking to listen to
something that's a little moreuh, what could be called sad,
and it feels good because you'reprocessing that.
Now, to my husband, he would belike I don't want to hear that
sad stuff, and I think he's just, you know, he doesn't want to
process it at the moment.
It's fine, I'll listen to koaliwith him, which we also love,
(46:19):
and uh, which is a great thing.
So I, I think, you know, even inmy own stuff, like before I did
any recording, I was makingmusic here at home and bringing
it to a yoga studio of a friendand she was like you really need
to make an album and it wasmuch more like the music you
were describing being, you know,60 beats per minute and calm
(46:43):
and you know.
But things have evolved so muchfrom them just with music in
this genre in general and inspecifically, as I've just
confessed, in my kind of music.
I mean, I think about eightyears ago I released an album
called Flow, which was reallykind of more world music, but
(47:09):
did I have the audience for that?
I don't know.
I mean, there's some of thosesitting Now that Spotify has
decided to cut us off fromroyalties with anything less
than a thousand streams.
There's a couple things sittingbelow that.
But you know, it's still.
It's still cool music, it'sstill part of my path and I
think it still deliversauthentic stuff, authentically
(47:32):
for me.
Ian Wilkerson (47:33):
You said it was called Flow.
Michelle Qureshi (47:34):
Yeah, I just mentioned it because you
mentioned it.
Ian Wilkerson (47:36):
I love that.
Nick Grizzle (47:37):
My new band is Flow.
Michelle Qureshi (47:38):
Yeah.
Ian Wilkerson (47:39):
And it's like, and it's like, how amazing is it
that you know there's all kindsof flow, right, there's not one
flow, like you know, and Itotally dip into the calm music
and totally surrender to thatand I and I experienced that all
for my own self healing.
But I also feel so much healingwhen I turn it up to 11 and go
(48:03):
really loud and hard.
You know, it's just like itdepends on what I'm looking for.
Joey Lusterman (48:07):
That's the end of part one.
Tune into part two for somewellness tools you can use in
your guitar practice.
You'll find that on our Patreonpage at patreoncom.
Slash acoustic guitar plus.
Welcome to the Acoustic Guitar Podcast.
I'm Joey Lusterman.
Does playing acoustic guitarprovide benefits beyond the joy
and satisfaction of making music?
In seeking to answer thatquestion, we learn about a range
of music therapy experiencesand explore the physical,
emotional, spiritual andclinical benefits of playing and
listening to music.
Hosts Nick Grizzle and EltonBradman are joined by guests
(00:23):
Michelle Qu Koreshi and IanWilkerson.
Michelle Qureshi is aclassically trained guitarist,
multi-instrumentalist, composer,practicing yogi, student of
shamanism and presenter of soundexperiences.
And Ian Wilkerson is aboard-certified music therapist
with dual degrees from BerkleeCollege of Music, a breathwork
coach, guitarist andsinger-songwriter and the
(00:44):
founder of Bay Area MusicTherapy.
Before we dive into thisfascinating discussion, I'd like
to take a moment to thank oursponsor for this episode.
Strings by Mail.
Strings by Mail (00:54):
Stuck in a rut, just not feeling it.
Get inspired by new strings.
New strings sound better, areeasier to play and are more in
tune, so change them or upgradethem.
At Strings by Mail, we have thestrings you need to hit all the
right notes.
Choose from over 6,000 stringsfrom 75 manufacturers.
Use our string filter or callone of our expert players to
(01:16):
help find your perfect set, yourmusic, your strings, delivered
fast.
Strings by Mail.
Nick Grizzle (01:23):
You can learn more at stringsbymailcom so first
(02:02):
thing I wanted to ask ian I'mgoing to start with you on this
one what initially drew you tothe guitar, and can you briefly
tell us a little bit about whatpulled you toward the area of
music that you're now working in?
Ian Wilkerson (02:18):
I'd say what pulled me to the guitar was my
mom and dad playing all of thegreat music from the 60s and 70s
.
When I was a young kiddo, youknow, just growing up with a
couple of rock and rollerhippies who you know so the
Beatles, jimi Hendrix, dylan allof the great music that I grew
(02:40):
up listening to from my mom andmy dad.
That's pretty much how I firstgot the guitar.
And then what really did it wasthe.
The.
The deal was my uncle.
He gave me my first electricguitar, so that was my first
instrument.
It was a bc rich rave.
It was really, really heavy.
So I appreciated my firstacoustic after that.
(03:04):
For sure what what pulled youtoward the area of music you now
work in.
I come from a family of healersand integrative practitioners
and even MDs.
Some of the people in my familyare MDs Like literally.
I have like 10 chiropractors inmy immediate family.
My dad's a chiropractor, my momwas a sexologist and a tantrica
and a Reiki and breathworkpractitioner.
(03:26):
My sister my older sister had inher younger life worked with
special needs and in highschools, and then what really
drew me to it was when Irealized the power of music to
bring people together incommunity and help them grow and
find their own wellness.
And so I did that.
And in junior high and highschool I would take my guitar to
(03:46):
the special educationclassrooms and I would.
I would go join the special youknow special day class,
bungalow and on sixth period orlunch and I would jam with the
kiddos.
And I think that's really wasthe beginning of the seed that
was planted.
I had no idea at that pointthat I would pursue a degree and
career in music therapy, butthat was the beginning of it.
Nick Grizzle (04:09):
Michelle, what drew you to the guitar initially
and what pulled you toward thearea of music you now work in?
Michelle Qureshi (04:16):
Sure, well, when I was very young I just
seemed to have this affinity forthat instrument.
You know something about thosestrings just pulled me in.
But of course, you know, it wasjust toy guitars.
We go to the you know shop andget a treat, and I just get
these toy guitars that wouldinevitably be broken or maybe,
you know, destroyed in some way.
(04:37):
And then visuals the cartoonwith the Beatles came out, you
know, like similar to you.
The cartoon with the Beatlescame out, you know, like similar
to you.
There were the you know 60s and70s and very guitar focused
kind of pop music and justreally cool stuff going on.
But I was still just you knowlittle and attracted to it.
And not until I was 13 years oldI bought my first guitar and
(05:01):
started just you know immersiveself-teaching myself how to play
all kinds of frettedinstruments and just started
collecting them.
And when it was time forcollege, you know, I was a
little bit like not encouragedbecause I had a really different
family background than Ian andnobody was really into music,
(05:25):
nobody really knew that path orthe healing arts in any sense.
So that's been kind of a moresolo journey for me when I
started out in college it wasfor psychology.
I got three semesters in and Iwas like I was.
I was dying inside because Ididn't have that creative outlet
.
And I changed course and Istarted from scratch as a
classical guitarist and that wasmy training, you know, to learn
(05:48):
that and that you know most ofthe other students you know they
started playing at three yearsold and it was a very, very
interesting thing.
But I'm absolutely glad I didit and that foundation, I
believe, laid the groundwork forwhat I've come to with music
now, this many years later.
(06:09):
For the last dozen years I'vebeen playing and making my own
music and presenting like soundimmersions with all the
different instruments, thehealing instruments.
So that healing aspect I cameby through the process of kind
of doing it myself attendingyoga, playing guitar for yoga,
(06:32):
then attending the classes anddoing more and more spiritual
expansion, which expanded mymusic, and being able, because I
had that foundation, to do thisall in what feels like a very
intuitive approach now andthat's you know that passion is
there and it kind of just passesthrough the intellect.
(06:53):
So, briefly, I don't thinkabout it now, I just play and I
love to do that.
E.E. Bradman (06:58):
I would love to ask what?
How do you define?
We're thinking about terms?
Ask how do you define we'rethinking about terms?
Sound healing, music, therapy.
I'd love to hear your opinionson the difference between those
two things, or is there adifference?
Ian Wilkerson (07:11):
Yeah, there's two different.
Well, there is and there isn't.
So you know there's this whole.
There's different pedagogies,there's different, higher, you
know, opportunities foreducation and different
curriculums and schools andprograms.
You can get a degree in soundhealing and you can get a degree
in music therapy and they areseparate pedagogies and I tend
(07:33):
to explain it to my clientele,like and to others, that in the
sound healing world, myunderstanding and I do integrate
some sound healing into my work, but it's more of a passive
experience where the recipientreceives the sound and the
acoustics and the vibrations andit's a relaxation experience or
anxiety reduction or guidedimagery through music, and it's
(07:53):
a more passive experience.
And as a music therapist, thedifference for me in my training
and my practice is that mine isinteractive.
Interactive and my goal in well, 80% of the time, my goal in my
clinical work is to engage myclientele in developing an
active relationship andparticipation in music making
(08:17):
and it's through therelationship of making music
with a skilled clinician ortherapist that the therapeutic
relationship is scored and thatopportunities for change and
growth and whatever it is thatwe're working on wellness,
anxiety reduction, habilitativegoals, impulse control, learning
(08:37):
, cognitive TBI, rehabilitation,learning how to talk again-
whatever it is that we'reworking on.
it's through the act of beingengaged in music making.
And then I'd say there's alsotraining in music therapy.
When you go to get a degree,you also have subspecialties
within being board certified asa music therapist.
There's subspecialties that arelike the Bonnie guide to you
(08:59):
know, guided music, relaxation,guided imagery through music.
So there are passiveexperiences that I do include
sound opportunities like that.
But that's the big difference.
When I get together with kiddos, we play, we run around, we
jump, we move, we dance, we sing, we scream, we breathe deep in
some instances, and so I thinkthat's a notable difference in
(09:20):
terms of the education I got andalso my clinical practice.
Michelle Qureshi (09:25):
So that's really interesting to hear and
really you know a differenttrained approach.
I'm trained as a musician, sothat's not really.
There's not really amethodology I use to it.
Beyond that, approaching itpassionately, and I typically,
let's say, in these soundimmersions, I call my thing a
(09:47):
harmonic sound immersion and Iwouldn't say that it's passive,
because it's an experiencethat's being shared and
oftentimes I'll do them in yogastudios or whatnot, and you know
a couple dozen people maybe arein Shavasana or any comfortable
(10:08):
position For about an hour myimprovisation on everything from
, you know, my guitars to flutes, and I'm looking around my room
the gongs, the chimes, thedidgeridoo gongs, the chimes,
(10:29):
the didgeridoo, just all thesereally healing instruments that
I kind of just use to create anexperience.
They don't touch an instrumentin this instance.
They are just in some kind ofmeditative space that benefits
them, that heals them inwhatever way they are needed.
I akin it more to a Reikiexperience really, because I
feel like the vibrations and themusical energy, just through
(10:51):
pure music and connection withthe people who are present, that
kind of guide me.
What I'm playing, thatexperience takes them wherever
they needed to go, the more of ameditator they already are, or
you know, plugged into certaindisciplines, the experiences
just seem to be more astounding.
(11:14):
On the other hand, you know,I've done it for a group of
students on the spectrum and oneof the most vivid experiences
happened by to one of the aideswho were there with the kids.
She literally, you know tearsin her eyes experiencing the
(11:35):
connection with a son she hadjust lost.
You know, and some of thesestories are just so, so amazing
through the power of music.
I don't start them out saying,you know, here's, here's the
love tone, the 528 hertz, youknow, or this is going to help
your hips, or something likethat.
I'm just kind of, almost, in away, naively playing and
(12:00):
creating a sound experience.
That again, I don't think it'spassive, but it's not, you know,
in the sense as you'reexplaining, where you know you
get up and move around and dothat.
So I continue to do that, I'vebeen doing that for about five
years and so in that way, that'sthe experience, I know, through
(12:23):
these instruments, theexperience as healing through
just the guitar, that's kind ofa different and generally very
intimate thing as well.
Ian Wilkerson (12:33):
Beautiful In terms of the passive statement I
made, like and no intention to,you know, diminish the value of
sound healing at all.
I was just trying to create amotoric, clinical difference in
terms of like the engagement andthe level of interactivity,
because it's not they're notlaying in a state and receiving
the sound Right, but in terms ofquantum mechanics and my
(12:55):
understanding of energy andvibrational frequency and all of
those aspects, absolutely nomatter what we do in our
existence, there's tons ofinteraction on a more
microscopic level.
So you know, when I do soundhealing in my work as well, I
totally honor and understand andlove that there's a lot of
(13:17):
interaction going on that I'mnot seeing with my eyes.
So yeah, just wanted to addthat.
E.E. Bradman (13:26):
Beautiful, beautiful, beautiful.
I love there's so muchbeautiful crossover between what
you do.
Ian Wilkerson (13:33):
There really is.
There really is, yeah.
Michelle Qureshi (13:35):
And interesting, because the
training is quite differentreally.
I mean, yeah, we're both inthat funnel of music, but you
know the methodologies youemploy and the way I intuit
music, music and what it does.
Nick Grizzle (13:51):
it is it is pretty interesting yeah yeah
absolutely elton, like you weresaying, there's very different
ways of using this.
The idea of healing, but uh,it's, it's all coming back to,
like music is so powerful.
You know and I wanted to getyour take on and, mich, we could
start with you on this one Someof the things that music, and
(14:14):
maybe specifically like guitar,if you want to get into that can
do for one's overall health.
Maybe somebody doesn't say Ispecifically need X, y or Z,
just in general.
What are maybe some of thethings that you've seen or that
you know of that music has thepower to kind of affect one's
(14:34):
overall health and if there'sanything specific with guitar
that might be in that realm too.
Michelle Qureshi (14:40):
Sure, yes.
Well, first of all, for for me,guitar playing is a meditation,
Um, and when I present it, forinstance, I'm really done with
kind of playing the background,gigs or the, you know, the wine,
wine cellars or whatever.
(15:00):
So what I found as far as otherthan just a concert or sound
immersion, I tend to play, youknow, for different worship
services, because you have thesilence and the focus, and when
I'm playing for that I can seethe impact.
It's almost like offering aprayer, you know, I mean I see
it in a secular way for me, butI am in different houses of
(15:22):
worship, so it has taken in asever.
But so, from what I offer, Isee it in that way, you know I'm
, I'm sharing a meditation or aprayer or um, always within that
as a story, just kind ofwrapped around the emotions of
of the piece.
For me personally, theexperience and I hope I
(15:43):
understand the question how itimpacts me, Um, it's something.
Uh, if I'm away from it toolong, I can feel.
I can feel that, you know, myfocus is slipping and my soul
connection even a little bitslipping.
So I have to have that timethat is just purely
(16:03):
improvisational on theinstrument.
You know it's not like, oh, Ineed to practice this, or you
know, I need to finish writingthat, I need that just space to
create, and it just changes mymood, it grounds me and it, you
know it raises me up too, youknow.
So it gets it's that, you know,heaven and earth kind of pull,
(16:26):
and so it's been a reallyimportant part of my life.
There's been times where, youknow, I've been away for quite a
while of the instrument but,like I said, the last dozen
years, you know, I've beenpretty solidly there making
music, creating and sharing it.
And the it's not just a, youknow, it's a physical thing,
(16:51):
it's a mental thing, it's almosta whole mind-body complex for
me, you know, because there's away it feels right, it's very
tactile, there's a way thatsound comes into you and comes
through you and then there's theemotion behind it, so that all,
(17:13):
just, you know, the it justkind of keeps, uh, adding up to
such an experience, and when youcan share it with others,
that's fantastic.
But I also just need some ofthat for me.
So so, yeah, I haven't taughtfor ages, I, so I can't really,
(17:52):
you know, I have to draw on somememory to see the impact of,
you know the accomplishments itoffers someone trying to learn
the instruments, thesatisfaction, the love of
creating something you know justwith your own hands and heart.
So I would say those benefitsare the big ones that I've
observed in the past in teaching.
And just, you know everybodythat plays for, or let's say,
plays from the heart, not fromthe ego, for, or let's say,
place from the heart, not fromthe ego.
People hear that, peopleconnect with that.
The ego stuff gets very messyin connecting but you know,
(18:16):
heart to heart, you know youtouch each other's soul.
Ian Wilkerson (18:22):
Yeah, and how about you?
Well, just in my interest totry to bring it back into the
acoustic.
You know, in my clinical workI'll speak about the people I
serve and my mission in life andto help people grow through
music and relate to themselvesand others.
And the thing that is one ofthe biggest hurdles for me in my
clinical practice is how Iintegrate this technological
(18:47):
phenomenon in terms of screentime and all of the beat ready,
quick, instant gratification,short attention spans, like
everybody thinks they're a beatproducer, everybody's gonna use
electronics to create music andit's at everybody's fingertip
and so it also.
You know, in some ways it alsobrings them farther away from
their somatic self, from theirenergy, from their frequency.
(19:08):
And on the other hand, it kindof philosophically it brings
them closer away from theirsomatic self, from their energy,
from their frequency and on theother hand, it kind of
philosophically it brings themcloser to the quantum mechanic
world because you know, like youknow, technology can converge
with the energy too.
Michelle Qureshi (19:18):
But anyway, not to get too heady on that.
Ian Wilkerson (19:20):
But, like, the thing I'm saying is that I
really appreciate acousticguitars and the acoustic
instruments because when I'mworking with people in music, I
want to get them engaged inlearning and making music and
experiencing music and beingcrafts and, like, my goal is to
anybody.
There's no prerequisite ormusic knowledge and when you
come and work with music therapy, I'm your coach and it's my job
(19:40):
to help the other person findaccess to expressing through
music, to using the language ofmusic, and they don't have to
have any background or training.
And it's my responsibility tohelp create a container that is
safe and that they can findtrust in music so that they can
use that medium to express andto relate to me and to
(20:01):
themselves.
And so the beautiful thing is,when they come in and they're
like, oh, they want like easyaccess, I always have to like
grapple with, like, okay, how amI going to bring them back to
the acoustic?
Like I want to just use thedrum and my acoustic guitar and
I don't want it to be aboutproducing a beat.
Or you know, when I'm in teentreatment and I'm working with
suicidal ideation and OCD andlike mental, you know, moderate
(20:22):
to mild mental health challengeswith teens, like you know, I
want to bring it to the acoustic, but everybody wants to use the
recordings of their favoritemusic and stuff.
So I really love the acousticguitars ability.
Once I find my in and I cancreate that buy-in from the
people I'm working with and I'lluse technology and I'll use the
(20:45):
screen or I'll use Spotifyplaylists and, like, explore
their favorite music.
But then I bring it back to theacoustic.
I'm okay, okay, well, let's doit, you and me, like, let's turn
the recording off, let's pullup the ultimate guitar tabs and
let's look at how the song goes,let's look at the lyrics and
analyze them and let's play iton our acoustics.
Oh, you don't know how to playacoustic?
(21:05):
Well, here's a bass.
Let me show you how chordtuning on the acoustic and they
don't have to know anythingabout fretting.
But I can be like okay, well,the key of the song is in C and
I know I can craft an experiencefor the person where they don't
have to have the fine motorskill, but I can give them an
instrument that's intentionallypremeditated and set up like an
acoustic guitar tuned to open Dchord and I can play.
(21:30):
Here comes the sun in the key ofD by the Beatles and they can
strum that open D chord throughthe whole song and it just
sounds cool, even when I'm notplaying a D, because it's a poly
chord and and it's still withinthe tonal center.
And they feel the success andthe reward.
And that's the importance ofthe acoustic instrument for me
Um, and being able to adapt andbe malleable with the instrument
(21:51):
and change the tuning realquick and give the client
something to hold and to feelthe vibration.
Versus if I have an electricguitar, you know they might get
a different tactile somaticexperience from the electric.
It's still going to bevibrational from the speaker but
it's really powerful for me tobe able to give a kiddo on the
spectrum with sensoryintegration issues you know, who
(22:12):
struggles with his sensorialsystem to like give them a
guitar and have them hold it andhave them play an open low D.
I drop it down, turn it down sothat the vibration is more
robust and help them feel thattactilely.
Nick Grizzle (22:26):
So that's some ways in which the acoustic
really supports my work andempowers me and my clients to
have greater access to theexperience have you experienced
(22:52):
people telling you like, wow,this helped with this particular
thing that I'm working on, or Ifelt this way that I haven't
felt in a while or haven't everfelt because of an acoustic
instrument experience?
Ian Wilkerson (23:01):
Oh, absolutely.
And I can give you one that'seven more magical than like a
verbal self-report.
Like you know, verbalself-report is great, but, like
when I work with minimallyresponsive individuals who might
be in a vegetative state, orwhen I work with I also work
with hearing impairedindividuals.
So, you know, being able to andthis can also be really
(23:21):
prevalent with like a reallygood subwoofer, but bringing it
to the acoustic when I have,like a hearing impaired client,
um, and it's also relative tolike ASD and on sensory systems,
because they get thatvibrational impact.
But, yes, there's been a clientI can think of one who you know
was very disengaged and I'm, youknow, trying to pull out all
(23:43):
the tools out of my, my tool bagto try to like, elicit some
interaction or some robustfacial affect or something that
shows me they're, they're,they're connecting to me in some
capacity, um, beyond just theenergy of being in the same room
, um, and and the moment that Icame close enough to where they
could feel the acoustic, likethe vibrational feeling of the
(24:05):
acoustic, and then, moreover, assoon as I like they, you know,
I gently invited and elicited.
I like they, you know, I gentlyinvited and elicited and asked
if, if you know, with littlegesture, hand over hand support,
like you know, can bring theirhand over to the acoustic and I
you could put their hand on theacoustic and then I would play
some chords.
And the moment that they feltthe guitar and it was like a
light bulb went off, like oh,now I'm.
(24:28):
They were brought into theexperience more than they were
before and it was reallyimpactful because prior to me
finding that, that, that door,that portal to get them to
connect with me and theexperience, they were a little
bit more aloof and kind of likeambivalent and like maybe
meandering in the room andexploring their sensory
environment, maybe meandering inthe room and exploring their
(24:51):
sensory environment.
And then, you know, once I wasable to bring us closer in
proximity and them onto theguitar, it just ignited a much
more, a deeper rapport and theconnection started to really
formulate.
E.E. Bradman (25:04):
Michelle, I'm curious.
You know I saw a picture of youwith a beautiful harp guitar
and just hanging out on Spotify.
Yes, and I'm so curious yourfeelings about acoustic
instruments in these settings?
Would you make the same music,the beautiful music that you do
(25:27):
on an electric Would?
Michelle Qureshi (25:29):
you make the same music, the beautiful music
that you do on an electric.
It's not the same on anelectric, I mean, you'll go
through my catalog and you'llfind pieces.
I love working with it too, butit's the vibration you know
you're holding, I think aboutwhen I'm holding the guitar and
playing this right against myheart chakra, you know, and you
just, and, whether it's a littleukulele or the guitar lely, you
(25:52):
know, I even have some Turkishand other instruments that are
part of, you know, thatconnection.
Now, not to say that thisbasket of flutes over I have
over here aren't beautiful forthe throat, chakra, you know,
they all have their place, butthe vibrating strings are, you
(26:12):
know, I mean, as soon as someonein history, you know, pulled
some, you know, held one length,another and gave it a pluck.
I mean there's something aboutthe uh, you know, chordophones
in general that are to me reallyheart-centered, heart-based.
Nick Grizzle (26:30):
Um, now, I may have gone on one of those
tangents we were talking about,but no, yes, I think we're right
, right in the zone becausewe're talking about guitars,
right like the specificallyplucked instruments right, right
.
Michelle Qureshi (26:44):
So that harp guitar, what?
What can be beautiful aboutthat is because of bass.
You know, the strings are onthe bass, they're unfretted, so
there's six that just go,descending from D, c, b all the
way down to F, which I usuallydrop down to E.
It's a little more practical.
But even when you're justplaying on those six strings
(27:07):
because you hit that justoccasionally you don't want
constant bass strings, it's toomuch.
Yeah, this it's still all justin this vibrational thing and it
feels really good, you know, itfeels good against your body.
I also have, over on this otherone, a guitar that's, it's not
a baritone, it's literally anoctave lower.
(27:28):
It's there, it's a like a nylonstring body and every string is
pitched an octave lower.
And I really respond to bass,you know, and, uh, that that
part of it really feels good too.
You know, um, so I'm with youon the acoustics of of saying
you know the beauty of thosevibrations.
(27:50):
The different frequencies havetheir, um, their colors.
You know, I get a little bit.
You know, different keys canbring colors to me and I I
really.
You know, it's all like on thespectrum of what we can see and
hear, but they all go beyondthat.
Nick Grizzle (28:06):
You know, are there different?
I know there's certainfrequencies that connect with
the human body in different ways, but is there in?
Michelle Qureshi (28:35):
general, something about lower pitched or
higher pitched frequencies thatkind of maybe activate certain
things in the body or certainthings in the brain that you've
seen or that you know aboutthrough research.
Well, research-wise I can'tspeak really clearly on that,
but I can touch upon the ideaabout the A440 kind of thing
being more of a mental stressorand that if you do drop things
down to A equals 432 hertzinstead I don't know how much of
(28:59):
that is the real or placebo,but it does feel better.
It just feels a little bit more.
And there's different researchand experiments on that kind of
thing.
But I think we're, you know,except for some of my tuning
bowls and other singing bowlsthat I have that are tuned to
432 and a couple of currentprojects, it's really hard to
(29:21):
get that, um, you know, in themainstream acceptable.
I think there's more and moremusic being played and written
in that.
But I know as as recently as uhbeing in Nashville at one of the
uh NAMM shows and listening toan audio engineering panel and
bringing this up afterward tothe guy you know it was an all
(29:43):
male session.
So I go up and I try to raisethe question you know, what
about 432?
.
And then he really rudely justsaid well, where's my tinfoil
hat?
So I knew that discussion wasdone.
You know, number one, you're awoman, and number two, oh, you
must be crazy.
So I mean it's not a new idea,Like it was just, I think I mean
(30:05):
maybe someone can correct me,but I think it was just in the
20th century that the 440 wasestablished as the you know the,
what do you call that?
The standard?
Yeah, but before I mean, andyou know, around the world,
(30:27):
that's.
That concept is also a littlebit crazy.
I mean, you go to Indonesia andevery gamelan orchestra is just
tuned to that village's senseof, uh, what works, and I, I
love those sounds, I mean thatis, and uh, you know, then we
leave even just the westernscales, uh, when you start
(30:49):
talking about different tunings.
Nick Grizzle (30:50):
So um ian, did you see a different response for
different types of frequencieswith people that you work with?
Ian Wilkerson (31:01):
Yes, absolutely.
I think the most prevalentaspect of this in my work, for
me and the people I work with,is that it's all individualized.
I have a hard time, you know,fully grabbing onto that there's
(31:22):
these rigid parameters for anyone person's physiology or
biometrics only because I'veexperienced such a spectrum with
regards to how differentfrequencies and sounds impact
different people I work with,and so I never try.
I don't typically take it forgranted.
I typically assess, you know,what response am I observing or
(31:47):
what response am I sensing withmy intuition if I'm doing more
energetic work, which I do dosometimes.
So if I'm, you know I'm abreathwork coach as well.
So I do a ton of breathworkwith people where it's just all
about the somatic and there's noexpectation for engagement
except their breath.
And so when I'm working withsomebody in their breath and I'm
using tones or I'm usingfrequencies, or if I'm working
(32:09):
with kiddos who have autism, orif I'm working with impulse
control, or if I'm working inTBI for neurological development
, I just experiment and I assesswhere the person is and what
kind of response am I observing.
What self-report are theygiving me?
Are they giving me feedback?
Are they verbally saying thatfelt good.
Are they telling me that itmade them feel more anxious?
(32:29):
Are they showing me that itmade them feel more anxious?
And then I recalibrate and Itry to adjust what it is.
I'm doing.
So, if I start out with 440 orif I start out with 432, if I do
an E flat exercise, I'm awareof those pitch prevalences, but
I always adjust and adapt basedon the feedback I'm getting.
And the frequencies are soprevalent, though, and
(32:54):
absolutely powerful, and I havea little thing of tuning forks
and, again, I never went to theSound Healing Institute and
absolutely powerful, um, and Ihave, uh, you know, a little
thing of tuning forks, and I'm,again, I never went to the sound
healing Institute, uh, but I'vedone some conferences and I've,
you know, the globe soundhealing Institute and on in the
Bay, I've, I've, I've, I'veattended those seminars and, um,
I love the work.
But, um, that's how I approachthe, the element of
psychoacoustics and kind of the,the, the vibrational frequency
(33:16):
awareness, as I assess and adapt.
And then I just because youasked the question again, I'm
not a research buff, but thereis a paper I've referenced
before and, you know, anybodycan go online and search under
the NIH website and there's agreat survey.
I just pulled it up right nowso I could tell your listeners.
There's a paper.
(33:38):
It's a narrative review ofresearch literature that maps
the landscape of the mechanismsof the effect of sound vibration
on humans, including thephysiological, neurological and
biochemical.
And it's the name of the paper.
It's a synthesis of all theresearch right.
It was put out in 2021 and it'scalled the Possible Mechanisms
for of sound vibration on humanhealth.
(34:00):
So if, like your listeners arelike yo, I want to know more
about how the neurology is beingmapped and how is the body
being measured, because you knowwe live in a very quantitative
world now where everybody wantseverything to be discreetly
measured, which is not my forte.
I'm like, totally processoriented and I'm all about being
(34:20):
adaptable and I'm integrative,but we do want results and
outcomes and insurance companieswant to be able to justify
payment.
So these are prevalent measuresto be aware of.
Yep, so that paper.
Nick Grizzle (34:37):
I'm going to scope that out both for the podcast
and personally later.
I love diving into thatresearch stuff and we'll throw
that link in the show notes aswell for anybody who wants to
read it.
Thank you for that, yeah.
Ian Wilkerson (34:51):
Can I add something personal, because I
haven't spoken much about myselfin terms of my own passion in
my artist life.
So I've been a recording artistmy whole life, since I was 16.
And you know, a lot of that hasbeen electric.
But just so for the sake ofyour listeners in this acoustic
world, me and another dad it'sbeen 10 years since I've put out
(35:12):
a commercial release and all ofmy prior releases for the most
part have been electric rockband, funk, jam rock,
singer-songwriter.
There's been a few acousticnumbers sprinkled in there, but
it's been a lot of like jam bandrock, pop stuff, right.
And I'm super stoked to say that, like within the next month and
(35:33):
a half I'm going to be droppingmy first EP in 10 years and
it's an acoustic duet recordedlive, old school, no overdubs.
We went in the studio and infour hours two dads sat face to
face with pop screens and micsand acoustics, mic'd, four
microphones and even a littletelephone mic over on the side.
(35:54):
That was like an old schooltelephone and we just recorded
three songs without any redosand, uh, we both sing harmonies
and we both play guitar andwe're and it's it's like
alternative rock, like inspiredby, like you know sound garden
and, like you know, owls andchains, kind of like the mtv
(36:15):
unplugged era um the golden era.
Dude like just oh my gosh, likethat stuff hits my heart.
But anyway, that is exciting.
The name of the band is calledFlow F-L-O-W.
Nick Grizzle (36:29):
Do you use techniques from your practice
when recording your own music?
Ian Wilkerson (36:33):
I do.
I'm very aware of my breathalways.
I'm always aware of trying tobalance my parasympathetic and
sympathetic nervous system.
However, I spend a lot of timein my sympathetic nervous system
.
I'm always on, I'm on like I'mjust always energized, right.
So it's a life challenge for me, a lifelong lesson, to learn
(36:55):
how to make space and slow down.
And I slow down in my art whenI'm making music and I slow down
when I'm playing my acousticand channeling creativity.
And the thing that's the mostbeautiful thing about my
experience in music making iswhen I write music.
I don't.
I songwrite often but I don'tever feel like I can lay
(37:18):
ownership to it, like I mightcopyright it because I've got a
mechanism through which I canand perhaps have some benefit to
that.
But like I don't, I really justchannel.
Like when I songwrite and Iwrite my acoustic, I'm very
aware of my breath.
Before I go into the studio, Idefinitely breathe.
I'll do some like nervous systemreset, cal recalibration,
(37:40):
things like breath of fire oryou know, this is like a
Kundalini or pranayama yogapractice where I'm like doing
really rapid nose breathing orI'll do shoulder shrugs, you
know stuff like that and andit's like it can be like a
one-minute thing or a two-minutething, where I just really burn
myself out, but it's like andI'm oxygenating, hyper
oxygenating my body, but it'slike and I'm oxygenating, hyper
oxygenating my body, but it'sthen afterwards I have that
(38:02):
surrender of like, ah yeah, likeafter a good workout or after
really good sex, or you know,like I mean, let's tell, let's
tell it like it is right, likeour bodies have biomechanical
responses to experiences, right,so you know, but just really
breathing deep and and then Idefinitely did that before
recording this album and then,like, when we screwed up and
(38:25):
we're like, oh man, we got to doanother take, I definitely
would like get up, walk around,breathe deep, just hold my
guitar in my body for a momentand like not play it and just
kind of connect with it.
Yeah, I don't know if I went ontoo big of a tangent, but I said
the S word on air, sorry.
Nick Grizzle (38:44):
And Michelle, how about you?
Michelle Qureshi (38:46):
Yes, absolutely, and you mentioned
many of those things.
Alternate nostril breathing isanother really good centering
one, you know, the breath offire, relaxation, and one thing
I have to do well, my studio isright in this other room and
that's where I record, so it canbe any time of day or night, as
(39:07):
long as you know all the mowersand leaf blowers and all that
BS is not out there on thestreet.
So I do the recording in there.
One thing I've really been justthe last few months paying
attention to is when you'rerecording, because, of course,
in this situation I'm theengineer and I'm the you know
(39:29):
producer and the performer, thecomposer, and my body can feel
so tight, you know, when I'mplaying, like, because it's not
like, oh you know, I'm goingover my budget.
It's like I'm going over myability to just focus and get
this right, because I, like,when I record, I like to play
(39:53):
straight through a piece.
You know I don't have the kindof studio to do the magic,
editing and slicing and all thisstuff, but I've been lately
been going through my body,especially from kind of like
from your hips and your legs,just making sure those muscles
are just, you know, loosened up,because that's where you know
(40:14):
my feet are on the ground, onthe floor and they're just like
you know, they're just plantedand you really, if I can at
least just kind of move with theguitar and still not, you know,
not get that wavering on themicrophone, but I find that to
be really important.
I'm not always in that flowstate when I'm recording.
(40:36):
That's ideal.
But there's just all thoseother factors, like you know.
Is this mic, is there a hum inmy, in this cable again, or, you
know, did I get the high enoughsignal, and and that kind of
thing.
So I'd like to take morerelaxation during the process.
You know we can do all the prepwe want before the process, but
(40:58):
we need to carry that throughso that just that magic can
happen in the performance.
So that's one thing.
Ironically, as Ian is mentioning, he's been on pause for a
decade with albums and he'susually doing electric guitar
and this kind of stuff.
Doing electric guitar and thiskind of stuff.
(41:25):
I, for the last 12 years, Ihave 14 albums out and a lot of
singles, and acoustic guitar isreal central to most of that
work, to quite a bit of thatwork, and in June I'm releasing
something that has so littleacoustic guitar in it.
It's not funny, you know.
It's just like flip thenarrative here on this, you know
it's.
It even has what's new for me.
I'm even like doing beats on itand it's, it's really.
(41:49):
I mean, I love it Because, youknow, when I write a piece for
guitar or piece comes through me, as you're saying, channeling,
it is a lot of that.
When a piece comes through forguitar, a lot of times it is
more melancholic or you know,especially the nylon strings, to
(42:09):
me they just have that tendency.
And what I love about this newalbum is it's a lot of
joyfulness and extended,extended joyfulness and just
lighter, lighter hearted um,like a joyful piece on the
guitar.
For me it's still just a threeminute experience, you know, and
it's like, oh, that's pretty,but that's pretty short, you
know.
So this is going to be, uh,really an interesting um release
(42:33):
for me and I wish you all theluck on on your release upcoming
as well.
E.E. Bradman (42:40):
I love this discussion because, you know,
before you guys got on, we wereall hanging out and we were
talking about, you know, music,healing music specifically.
And I was asking.
I was like there's a stereotypeof healing music as mellow,
kind of relaxing, kind of sleepy, and that's beautiful, there's
(43:03):
room for that.
And I just was thinking okay,so we have these two esteemed
artists who've really done a lotof thinking about this and who
really live this idea of healingmusic and healing through music
, of healing music and healingthrough music, and I was like,
is there something besides?
like very mellow 50 BPM acousticstuff, so I love hearing
(43:28):
everything you guys are saying.
Ian Wilkerson (43:29):
I just if I can say, like, so, absolutely true.
So in my work as a musictherapist it's all
individualized and it's allabout the client preferred
repertoire.
I'm not gonna come to someteenager who loves Lil Peep and
XX10C on and be like, well,sorry, dude, today we're doing
Garth Brooks and and, and we'regonna talk about how hard it is
in Garth Brooks life because,you know, no, no, I'm gonna be
(43:53):
like, what music do you like?
And I've had a kiddo on thespectrum teenager, high
functioning autism, and I'mdoing music therapy with them.
And we're doing skillacquisition and impulse control
with Slayer and Motorhead.
You know, and that's what calmshis nervous system.
He felt more regulated.
For whatever reason, hisphysiology, his nervous system
(44:15):
was like no, dude, don't playthree little birds with me by
Bob Marley.
I don't want to hear that.
But I love me some Motorhead.
And so you know, I, you know, asa, as a, as a trained music
therapist, I have to come to thetable like a chameleon.
I have to be able to go.
I call myself, I'm a genrehopper, so I have to be able to,
like, at the snap of a drop, belike, okay, motorhead, you know
(44:42):
.
And then the next moment, ahalf hour later, I'm working
with somebody, or even in thesame session they might be like
well, now it makes sense for usto do something slow.
So I have to really bend inbetween genres and when you're
doing music healing through theact of stoking their interest
and preference in terms of whatturns them on and like what
music they like yeah, all musicis healing.
(45:02):
It's what does they?
What do they like?
Nick Grizzle (45:04):
Michelle, what do you think about that?
The, the genre, uh, you know,doesn't have to be defined as as
a genre but, like healing music, can be individualized yes,
definitely it can.
Michelle Qureshi (45:16):
just in genres themselves, right?
They're just like marketingtools, you know, and we have to
abide by them.
You know, you're putting yourpiece on Spotify.
You've got to choose a genre,whether or not it has anything
to do with the music.
So that's a very limiting thing.
All music has potential to heal.
(45:38):
All music delivers what it needsto uh, as you, as you listen,
for the most part, I mean,there's a, there's a experience
of listening to something toprocess feelings that you can't
process without it.
You know, and it gets youthrough that A lot of times.
(45:59):
That can happen with, uh, youknow, liking to listen to
something that's a little moreuh, what could be called sad,
and it feels good because you'reprocessing that.
Now, to my husband, he would belike I don't want to hear that
sad stuff, and I think he's just, you know, he doesn't want to
process it at the moment.
It's fine, I'll listen to koaliwith him, which we also love,
(46:19):
and uh, which is a great thing.
So I, I think, you know, even inmy own stuff, like before I did
any recording, I was makingmusic here at home and bringing
it to a yoga studio of a friendand she was like you really need
to make an album and it wasmuch more like the music you
were describing being, you know,60 beats per minute and calm
(46:43):
and you know.
But things have evolved so muchfrom them just with music in
this genre in general and inspecifically, as I've just
confessed, in my kind of music.
I mean, I think about eightyears ago I released an album
called Flow, which was reallykind of more world music, but
(47:09):
did I have the audience for that?
I don't know.
I mean, there's some of thosesitting Now that Spotify has
decided to cut us off fromroyalties with anything less
than a thousand streams.
There's a couple things sittingbelow that.
But you know, it's still.
It's still cool music, it'sstill part of my path and I
think it still deliversauthentic stuff, authentically
(47:32):
for me.
Ian Wilkerson (47:33):
You said it was called Flow.
Michelle Qureshi (47:34):
Yeah, I just mentioned it because you
mentioned it.
Ian Wilkerson (47:36):
I love that.
Nick Grizzle (47:37):
My new band is Flow.
Michelle Qureshi (47:38):
Yeah.
Ian Wilkerson (47:39):
And it's like, and it's like, how amazing is it
that you know there's all kindsof flow, right, there's not one
flow, like you know, and Itotally dip into the calm music
and totally surrender to thatand I and I experienced that all
for my own self healing.
But I also feel so much healingwhen I turn it up to 11 and go
(48:03):
really loud and hard.
You know, it's just like itdepends on what I'm looking for.
Joey Lusterman (48:07):
That's the end of part one.
Tune into part two for somewellness tools you can use in
your guitar practice.
You'll find that on our Patreonpage at patreoncom.
Slash acoustic guitar plus.
Popular Podcasts
Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang
Ding dong! Join your culture consultants, Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang, on an unforgettable journey into the beating heart of CULTURE. Alongside sizzling special guests, they GET INTO the hottest pop-culture moments of the day and the formative cultural experiences that turned them into Culturistas. Produced by the Big Money Players Network and iHeartRadio.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.