November 29, 2023 • 27 mins
Catch up with one of your favorite bluegrass bands! Sara Watkins, Sean Watkins, and Chris Thile discuss breathing new life into classic tunes, what their kids really think of their music, and a whole lot more.
This episode is sponsored by ToneWoodAmp, a magnetically attached game-changing multi-effects device for acoustic guitars. Get reverb, delay, and more—no amp required! Learn more at tonewoodamp.com.
Additional resources:
- Access Part 2 of this episode on Patreon.
- Listen to Celebrants via Amazon, Bandcamp, or others.
- Jeffrey Pepper Rodgers teaches you how to play guitar like Nickel Creek's Sean Watkins and interviewed the band for the July-August 2023 issue of Acoustic Guitar magazine.
- You'll find music to play for "This Side" in our 2002 Digital Archive and Chris Thile's "On Ice" in our 2005 Digital Archive.
- Read a profile of the Watkins Family Hour on the site of our sister publication, Strings magazine.
The Acoustic Guitar Podcast theme music is composed by Adam Perlmutter and performed for this episode by Jeffrey Pepper Rodgers.
This episode is hosted by Nick Grizzle and Jeffrey Pepper Rodgers, produced by Tanya Gonzalez, and directed and edited by Joey Lusterman. Executive producers are Lyzy Lusterman and Stephanie Campos Dal Broi.
The Acoustic Guitar Podcast is produced by the team at Acoustic Guitar magazine, including:
- Publisher: Lyzy Lusterman
- Editorial Director: Adam Perlmutter
- Managing Editor: Kevin Owens
- Creative Director: Joey Lusterman
- Digital Content Director: Stephanie Campos Dal Broi
- Digital Content Manager: Nick Grizzle
- Marketing Services Manager: Tanya Gonzalez
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Chris Thile (00:00):
People come up to us all the time and say hey, I
grew up listening to your music.
It's like we grew up playing itfor you.
Nick Grizzle (00:38):
Hello and welcome to the Acoustic Guitar Podcast.
I'm your host, nick Grizzle,and in this episode we're
talking with Nickel Creek.
My co-host, jeffrey PepperRogers, notes that "not many
bands can claim to have playedtogether for well over 30 years
while its members are in their40s.
Sean Watkins, sarah Watkins andChris Thiele discuss breathing
(01:00):
new life into classic tunes,Songwriting influences both past
and present, what their kidsreally think of their music, and
much more.
Before we dive in, I'd like totake a moment to thank Tonewood
Amps for sponsoring this episode.
Tonewood Amp is a game-changingmulti-effects device that
attaches to any acoustic guitarGet reverb, delay and more no
(01:22):
amp required.
Learn more at tonewoodampcom.
And, of course, thank you fortuning in to another episode of
the Acoustic Guitar Podcast.
Now here's Jeffrey PepperRogers to kick off our
conversation with Nickle Creek.
Jeffrey Pepper Rodgers (01:35):
So I have to say first that I heard
you guys in this area out herenear Syracuse on your tour,
which was a great, great nightoh yeah, oh yeah, super fun show
.
Chris Thile (01:49):
That was a really fun show on the hillside there
with all the apple trees?
Jeffrey Pepper Rodgers (01:53):
Yes, exactly.
Chris Thile (01:54):
Sara and I had our kids out with us, and so at the
very end of the night theylistened to the last couple
songs.
I know that my little boy hasmade no bones about the fact
that he doesn't like the musicthat I make.
He understands that I'mcompetent, but he doesn't like
(02:19):
the texture of the music that Imake, and I think that's why I'm
so excited to be here, exceptfor this cover that we do of
Mother, mother's Hay loft.
He loves that, and so, sincethey were still up, there was
this ping pong table backstage,so they just kept playing ping
(02:44):
pong at far past their bedtime,towards the end of the Nickel
Creek set, and our friend Kira,which is definitely kid friendly
.
Yeah, it is kid friendlytypically, but my little boy
tailor made made to piss himright off because he was kind of
a hoot in the holler he wantsthings to sound like you're up
(03:10):
in some club in the meatpackingdistrict.
But so he said afterwards Daddy,I like Hayloft and you know
what Fox isn't bad, it's prettygood, and I would just see him.
And Sarah's kid Sam, and thenalso Sean's kid Willow came out
(03:33):
as well, and so getting to sharethis project with our progeny
and significant others.
In addition to all of thesepeople who we grew up playing
for they grew up People come upto us all the time and say, hey,
I grew up, listen to your musicand it's like man, we grew up
playing it for you.
It's a pretty crazy experiencethat we get to have out here.
Sara Watkins (03:59):
We are doing.
We're living life in similarstages as our audience, and so I
think that when we're playingthis material for the new record
, it feels to us and based onconversations we've had with
people fans or people who arecoming to shows a lot of us are
(04:21):
in that stage where we'rechoosing.
If we want to have families,we're choosing the friends that
we want to stay engaged with.
The family we want to stayengaged with the parts of
ourselves we want to stayengaged with, like all of these
things that we're talking abouton the record and as we're able
to put our families together andcontinue to choose to do this
(04:41):
band together.
That's what the record is about.
It all feels very full circleand it's just the essence of
where we are in life as a bandand just also as just
mid-40-year-olds figuring outhow to live.
Sean Watkins (04:54):
Well, you guys are early 40s.
Chris Thile (04:55):
Thank, you, sean, thank you.
Jeffrey Pepper Rodgers (04:57):
I wondered.
I think the last time we spokeyou were getting ready to take
this stuff out on tour and butthe album has got so many layers
of instruments, so many layersof voices and I know you were
talking at the time about thisprocess of figuring out how to
make it work.
(05:18):
Live, the three of you plus abass.
What was that process like?
To take this pretty complicatedstudio arrangements and just
make it really work with thelive.
Chris Thile (05:32):
I'm always more worried about getting the music
onto a record than I am abouttaking music off of the record
and putting it on stage, becausewe can show you what we mean.
We can show you with ourphysicality and how we are
acting in front of you as humanbeings and seeing where you are,
(05:52):
seeing how you need to hear themusic.
We can tailor, make it for youif you're in the room, but if
we're blindfolded, with bothhands tied behind our backs,
when we give you these recordsand you take it into your
individual listening environmentand that's the tricky part it's
getting it onto record.
And why for us to have MikeElizondo and Eric Valentine on
(06:21):
the case figuring out how itfeels when we're playing this
music in a room onto speakersthrough speakers?
Sean Watkins (06:29):
That's totally true.
It's really true.
Once we get on stage we feelconfident we can have it
translate.
But, nuts and bolts wise, a lotof these songs were recorded,
like you do, instrumentallyfirst and together we would be
together, the three of us intriangle, and then we would do
(06:53):
vocals later, although Sarasaying long line live.
Is that right?
Sara Watkins (06:57):
I did a couple.
Chris Thile (06:58):
Yeah, long line and maybe a couple others.
Dennis Wall, dennis Wall, Isang a holding pattern live.
Sean Watkins (07:06):
For the most part we were just dealing with, we
didn't know the songs yet Reallylike we do now, which is we
talk about it all the time, howmaking a record and touring is
such a backwards cycle.
So there's the learning how tosing and play at the same time
and then for this album there'sa lot of involved counterpoint
(07:27):
between the rhythmiccounterpoint between the
instruments, rhythm and vocals.
For example, in the song GoingOut, which is Fast 7, there's
some Ahs.
So it's an instrumental, butthe first time we've ever put
vocals in a instrumental, Ishould say.
There's some vocals, some Ahs,and they start at like an eighth
(07:50):
note after an upstroke in Fast7.
It's like one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, one, two,
three, and so there's a coupleof things like that that for me
personally were a challenge toget in my body before we hit the
road, and certainly now it'sstarting to feel a lot better.
(08:11):
But that there's those littlenuts and bolts things too, and
those are always with any record.
Those are going to be present.
Nick Grizzle (08:22):
On this new record .
Every one of your records seemsto evolve so much, and this is
a nine years between records isa lot of time for evolution.
What songwriters have beeninfluencing you from the
previous record up to when youwere started to write this
record?
Can you recall anything newthat really sparked something
for you for this record?
Sara Watkins (08:42):
I don't know if there's one or two people whose
music I've listened to.
I wouldn't be able to draw thatline.
I hope that it's the case that,like a lot of the great music
that I've been listening to hashas seeped in in a way.
That's you know, I'm sure thatit's coming out some way.
But I think the thing that Imost credit for my personal
(09:06):
musical growth is the differentcollaborations that I get to be
a part of.
So in the family hour, sean andI get to be on stage with a lot
of people and it's not reallyrehearsal collaboration as much
as on stage performancecollaboration and just watching
how people deliver something and, you know, listening to their
(09:30):
songs, I guess in prep, butparticularly, like you know,
working with Sarah Jarosz, AoifeO'Donovan and seeing how they
write songs and also writingwith other people.
I feel like just seeing thetime that people take to write
something or maybe the way thatthey work through it quite
quickly and then re-approach.
There's so many different waysto writing songs and there's no
(09:54):
one way that I've ever repeated,but I feel like I really enjoy
seeing other people's processand find a lot of inspiration,
in sort of like sympatheticallytrying to go through the, down
the path that I imagine theirbrain went down to get to a
certain point, which isdefinitely not the path they
took, but it's the way that Ican understand.
(10:14):
So I feel like that is a hugepart of my development.
I'm sure there's other art andlistening and base and time, but
also I think I also benefitfrom having a little bit of
space in my life to processthings, where I have time to
think about what is missing inmy life or missing in the world
(10:39):
or what I want to make, and thenI'm able to actually figure out
what that is and how I would doit.
If I were to write something tofill that space, what would it
be like?
And so I benefit from like alittle bit of downtime to
organize my thoughts.
They sound definitely benefitedin my mind by the amount of
(10:59):
many approaches that we wereable to, the multiple times we
were able to approach a lyricand figure out what we really
wanted to say.
Sean Watkins (11:12):
There's also.
I think there's a certain kindof inspiration that you get when
you're a younger artist, whenyou're making your first few
albums, where you can kind oflike answer that question by
saying, oh, I was listening tothis person, this person I like,
this person's this or thisperson's that.
But I notice that as we getolder and make more albums it's
less that you know you're goingto be influenced by everything
(11:33):
you hear and that's just goingto happen and I'm just not
worried about that.
You kind of just learn to trustthat as you get older and it
becomes a little bit harder topoint to one specific thing or
the other.
And the inspiration for me comesfrom, like writing with Sarah
and Chris after so long and thethings I mean.
Sarah and I play together allthe time but we don't
(11:53):
necessarily write.
We haven't written and you know, sat down to write in years and
so, and then with Chris too,and so getting together with
them.
It's really that new kind ofchemistry, because we've got the
old chemistry, that's alwaysthere, it's always gonna be
there, but there's new chemistrybased on where we are in life
and who we've been playing with,and to me that's the most
(12:16):
inspiring component, like forthis record.
Chris Thile (12:19):
There was one thing I can point to that made a big
impact on the way I go aboutwriting a lyric.
It happened right in the middleof this process, I guess our
writing session, the first bigwriting session that we had
wrapped up what like a week ortwo before the vaccines came out
, something like that, and sotouring had just started picking
(12:45):
up again that summer and I hada little bit of time to read for
the first time in a while,because in lockdown, you know,
with a kid, there was just,there was no time for anything.
There wasn't even time to, youknow, work on the music that I
really needed to work on.
But, you know, so you'refiguring out how to do it, and
(13:07):
then you get to the end of thenight, and I know a lot of
people did a lot of greatreading over the lockdown.
But man, my wife and I, it wasjust like trying to stay sane
whilst keeping this child alivewas the vibe, and there wasn't a
whole lot of reading going on.
And so, all of a sudden, I didlike a little bit of, you know,
(13:28):
going out and playing and hadsome travel time during which to
read, and that coincided withthis incredible book by the
release of this incredible bookby George Saunders called A in
the the Pond in the Rain.
It's just like a masterclass.
It's a masterclass that heteaches at Syracuse creative
(13:49):
writing masterclass that heteaches at Syracuse in book form
, about this set of Russianshort stories.
The short stories are in thereand then his commentary is after
them and it's.
I've never read something thatwas more helpful for, I think,
anyone who makes anything,whether it's music or you know.
(14:13):
Obviously I think it would behelpful for a writer, but, like
if you paint or if you justwhatever it is that you make, I
couldn't recommend that bookmore highly.
It made me think about what Ido in a totally different way.
Jeffrey Pepper Rodgers (14:28):
I teach classes at Syracuse also and
I've known him a little bitthrough that oh over the years.
But yeah, it is a great book.
Chris Thile (14:37):
You read it too?
Jeffrey Pepper Rodgers (14:38):
I have read it.
Yeah, I was looking back at aconversation that I had with you
three 21 years ago and, interms of songwriting and lyrical
inspirations, your top threelist at that time was Counting
Crows, toad the wet sprocket,and Elliot Smith.
Chris Thile (15:00):
Wow, that sounds like we weren't lying.
Sara Watkins (15:03):
I mean, I think those songwriters made a huge
impact on us.
We were talking about thisrecently at, actually at the
soundcheck of the show that yousaw, jeffrey, it was raining
during the day and we were onthe little island of the stage
during this downpour and we weretalking about Adam Duritz's
(15:24):
songwriting and how we were justplaying a bunch of those songs
and thinking about the influenceand that was a lift off for us
lyrically, out of a traditionalfolk world or bluegrass tonality
, irish music like these themesthat are touched on, and it was
(15:46):
all of a sudden people singingabout this life that we were
alive in as well, and melodiesand this like bringing some
poetry to life and really, youknow, putting your heart into it
.
There's so many things thatthose bands, those three bands,
really influenced us on.
(16:07):
Elliot Smith, like the melodiesand especially like the Toad,
the wet sprockets, all thosechords that Glenn puts into
songs and his melody writing aswell.
It was, it was a.
Those all influenced us so muchin that time.
Sean Watkins (16:21):
Coming across those, those writers, and you
know the 90s, what waspre-internet you just heard what
was on the radio.
But you know it was a wild,wild time for music, a wild
decade when you think about it.
The stuff that got played andthe diversity, and you know
that's what we came across and,like Sara said, it really helped
(16:41):
kind of, you know, launch usinto a new zone of thinking
about music and, and you know,songwriters that we've come to
love ever since.
Chris Thile (16:52):
We're thinking about the difference between
like like here two lyrics, likeone from what we grew up with,
like this Laurel Canyon Ramblersong um, well, I went outside
for a ramble round, didn't meanto stay, just a view of the town
.
Like contrast that with um stepout the front door like a ghost
(17:12):
into a fog where no one noticesthe contrast of white on white.
Like that is a pretty seriousdisparity.
And like yeah, yeah, I wouldthink that would kind of sum up
why hearing that really blew thedoors off for us, and I I mean
from where I'm, from where I amnow.
(17:33):
Both of those are great.
Uh, like I, I love them both.
And um, but they're very, verydifferent and I think, good to
hear both if you're a youngsongwriter trying to figure out
what your voice is.
Sara Watkins (17:46):
It's the same thing as like uh or it's similar
to.
You know you can play.
You know four or five chords onon uh, you know more
traditional bluegrassinstrumentation and it sounds a
certain way.
And then you play those samechords with on piano or with uh,
with like a classic rock androll band kind of thing, or like
(18:10):
B3 organ or whatever, and it'sa totally different vibe and
it's not.
It's not at its essence.
It's the same thing.
It's just the voice that youput behind it and and you know,
or the, the lyrical tone thatyou put behind it, and it's just
, it's a.
You could relate to it in uh as, as a with a different
perspective, as like it, withlike growing up early 20s person
(18:34):
perspective, and it was.
It was nice.
Sean Watkins (18:38):
It's kind of like it feels like we've just been
hanging out with with olderpeople and adults and then all
of a sudden we met some kids ourown age and it's like, hey,
cool.
Sara Watkins (18:50):
It was also the time we were becoming I think
the world was becoming aware ofT-Bone Burnett's production,
which, very quickly, he was alsothen very involved in oh
Brother Where Art Thou Stuff.
I mean he did it which ended upbeing the closest thing to our
(19:11):
childhood music as possible, andI think it was really neat to
see someone who didn't come fromthat world as far as we knew
really dive into it andappreciate in such a high
quality way like the choices onthat soundtrack were so
beautiful.
And it was neat, I think, forme and hindsight, to see that
same person exist, the personwho made these great rock and
(19:33):
roll records that we loved andthen also made this incredible
record that paid tribute to theroots that we grew up with.
It was nice to see like, oh,this is the same thing.
Sean Watkins (19:44):
Yeah, he produced that first Ken and Crow's record
that we know of, and then alsothe Wallflower record that was
on.
Chris Thile (19:51):
So long ago, I don't remember when.
Sorry.
Sean Watkins (19:55):
Guys, we could do a 90s sing-along night all night
long.
Nickel Creek sings the hits11.32, like 1.30 am on a tour
bus.
In the front lounge Maybe, yeah, two or three negronis in.
Chris Thile (20:12):
Oh yeah you'll hear all your faves.
Stephanie (20:15):
Hi there, I'm Stephanie Campos-Dalbroi and I'm
a producer on the AcousticGuitar podcast team.
I'd like to take a moment toremind you all that this is a
listener-supported show.
We're counting on your supporttoday to keep creating new
episodes for years to come.
Please visit patreoncom slashacousticguitarplus to learn more
(20:39):
.
Membership starts at $1 permonth and comes with special
perks, including bonus episodesof the podcast, access to live
workshops, and so much more.
Thanks for listening and foryour ongoing support.
Now let's get back to the show.
Nick Grizzle (20:56):
So in this band we've got one guitar, one
mandolin, one fiddle and lots ofvoices, but you're all also
guitar players, like really,that's in your DNA as well as
your main instruments in thisband.
How does that influence thesongwriting process with Nickel
Creek?
Knowing, I mean, for Chris andSara, you're probably not going
(21:18):
to be playing guitar on thesesongs, do you?
When you come to thesongwriting table with an idea
or a demo, do you start writingthat on guitar?
Do you start writing that onyour instruments with this band?
How does that how's being aguitarist also influence the
songwriting process for NickelCreek, for you guys?
Sara Watkins (21:40):
Well, I don't know if you are aware of this, but
you don't have to write songs onguitar.
I know that's who we're talkingto.
Sean Watkins (21:50):
One of the songs started with a little piano.
A couple of them started withpiano things that Sara had, and
I think you know, writing on aninstrument that's not your main
instrument, it can be really,really helpful, can really get
you out of whatever ruts you'rein.
Even just sit yeah, I mean evenif you don't play that
(22:10):
instrument well, like I don'tplay piano well at all.
But if I sit down and play afew chords that I know
automatically they're not goingto be the voice, like I'm
voicing them on guitar, and sothen I'm going to have different
ideas than I would normally.
You know, at least my firstidea might not be the same as if
I was playing on a guitar oreven just a different guitar.
You know that makes adifference Nylon string or like
(22:33):
Nashville, like we use theNashville High Strung on a
couple songs too, and that canbe really, really helpful.
Chris Thile (22:40):
The older I get, the more I write in my head, you
know, away from any instrument,just imagining what it is that
I want to hear, and getting tothe point where I can imagine it
clearly enough, to where I canjust start playing along, you
know, or start communicating itto the band.
Nick Grizzle (22:55):
And so do you hear all the parts in your head
separately, or is it just like amelody?
You?
Chris Thile (23:01):
hear the gist of it .
Yeah, like what kind of what itsounds like?
I mean like listening to theradio, except it doesn't exist
yet.
I would encourage people toexplore that part of their
musicianship.
Our bodies can be very, verylazy.
Creatively speaking, our bodieswant to do the stuff that they
do.
They want to do that more.
(23:22):
They know how to do it.
I mean, sometimes I think wefind writer's block can rear its
ugly head when we're tied tokind of what we can think of on
an instrument as opposed to whatwe can dream up in our inner
years.
Just our heads and hearts andsouls are that's what writes
(23:42):
music.
Our fingertips are pretty lazy,lazy dreamers.
They're like, check out thisthing I can do.
And we're like, yeah, I knewyou could do that already.
God damn it.
And increasingly I find that Iwrite more on like a long walk
via my notes.
I'm not talking about lyrics,I'm talking about a song that
goes like this, where this thinghappens and then this kind of a
(24:07):
thing happens and then thiskind of a thing happens, just
typing it out like in an outlineform.
Yeah, as if describing, yeah, asif, like, I'm writing a review
of a song that I'm writing, andthen I find it's much easier to
drag something unique out ofyour inner ear with your
(24:32):
instrument, like, if you knowwhat you're looking for, then
you'll know when you find it.
Sean Watkins (24:36):
The other kind of writing.
I was sitting down yesterday Ihad like an hour, while my wife
and kid were out walking aroundI was practicing some Nickel
Creek songs and then I justfound myself writing with an
idea.
I really I hadn't written, Ihadn't really just sat down and
tried to write by myself for awhile and I realized how much
fun it is to write with otherpeople, because the
(24:58):
possibilities are endless.
If you're doing what Chris isdoing and you sit there and you
think about something for a longtime and you imagine something
in your head until it's clearenough to where you can like
bring shape to it, that'sdifferent.
But for me I was just likemessing around, like that's kind
of cool.
What if I did this?
What if I did this?
What if we went to this court?
And it can be really frustratingwithout someone else to sort of
(25:20):
guide you.
It's so fun writing with Saraand Chris because that doesn't
really happen.
They'll be like, oh, that'sreally cool, or the thing that I
thought was really cool maybeisn't resonating with them, and
so we go a different directionand you've got a direction.
So for me, yeah, writing bymyself, I think, I'm trying, I'm
thinking, I'm learning.
I'm going to have to likefigure out how to do that in a
(25:42):
new way now, because it's toughwithout people to bounce your
ideas off of.
Nick Grizzle (25:48):
That's the end of part one, tune in to part two
for more on the collaborativesongwriting process behind
Celebrants.
Visit patreoncom slash acoustic guitar plus to
access all bonus episodes of theAcoustic Guitar podcast.
The Acoustic Guitar podcast isbrought to you by the team at
Acoustic Guitar magazine.
(26:09):
I'm your host, nick Grizzel,joined for this episode by
Jeffrey Pepper Rogers.
Acoustic Guitar podcast isdirected and edited by Joey
Lusterman.
Tanya Gonzalez is our producer.
Executive producers are LyzyLusterman and Stephanie Campos
Delbroy.
Our theme song was composed byAdam Perlmutter and performed
for this episode by JeffreyPepper Rogers.
If you enjoy this podcast andwant to support us, please visit
(26:30):
our Patreon page at patreoncomslash acoustic guitar plus or
find the link in the show notesfor this episode.
As a supporter, you'll haveaccess to exclusive bonus
episodes, along with otherspecial perks and if you're
already a patron.
Thank you so much for yoursupport.
People come up to us all the time and say hey, I
grew up listening to your music.
It's like we grew up playing itfor you.
Nick Grizzle (00:38):
Hello and welcome to the Acoustic Guitar Podcast.
I'm your host, nick Grizzle,and in this episode we're
talking with Nickel Creek.
My co-host, jeffrey PepperRogers, notes that "not many
bands can claim to have playedtogether for well over 30 years
while its members are in their40s.
Sean Watkins, sarah Watkins andChris Thiele discuss breathing
(01:00):
new life into classic tunes,Songwriting influences both past
and present, what their kidsreally think of their music, and
much more.
Before we dive in, I'd like totake a moment to thank Tonewood
Amps for sponsoring this episode.
Tonewood Amp is a game-changingmulti-effects device that
attaches to any acoustic guitarGet reverb, delay and more no
(01:22):
amp required.
Learn more at tonewoodampcom.
And, of course, thank you fortuning in to another episode of
the Acoustic Guitar Podcast.
Now here's Jeffrey PepperRogers to kick off our
conversation with Nickle Creek.
Jeffrey Pepper Rodgers (01:35):
So I have to say first that I heard
you guys in this area out herenear Syracuse on your tour,
which was a great, great nightoh yeah, oh yeah, super fun show
.
Chris Thile (01:49):
That was a really fun show on the hillside there
with all the apple trees?
Jeffrey Pepper Rodgers (01:53):
Yes, exactly.
Chris Thile (01:54):
Sara and I had our kids out with us, and so at the
very end of the night theylistened to the last couple
songs.
I know that my little boy hasmade no bones about the fact
that he doesn't like the musicthat I make.
He understands that I'mcompetent, but he doesn't like
(02:19):
the texture of the music that Imake, and I think that's why I'm
so excited to be here, exceptfor this cover that we do of
Mother, mother's Hay loft.
He loves that, and so, sincethey were still up, there was
this ping pong table backstage,so they just kept playing ping
(02:44):
pong at far past their bedtime,towards the end of the Nickel
Creek set, and our friend Kira,which is definitely kid friendly
.
Yeah, it is kid friendlytypically, but my little boy
tailor made made to piss himright off because he was kind of
a hoot in the holler he wantsthings to sound like you're up
(03:10):
in some club in the meatpackingdistrict.
But so he said afterwards Daddy,I like Hayloft and you know
what Fox isn't bad, it's prettygood, and I would just see him.
And Sarah's kid Sam, and thenalso Sean's kid Willow came out
(03:33):
as well, and so getting to sharethis project with our progeny
and significant others.
In addition to all of thesepeople who we grew up playing
for they grew up People come upto us all the time and say, hey,
I grew up, listen to your musicand it's like man, we grew up
playing it for you.
It's a pretty crazy experiencethat we get to have out here.
Sara Watkins (03:59):
We are doing.
We're living life in similarstages as our audience, and so I
think that when we're playingthis material for the new record
, it feels to us and based onconversations we've had with
people fans or people who arecoming to shows a lot of us are
(04:21):
in that stage where we'rechoosing.
If we want to have families,we're choosing the friends that
we want to stay engaged with.
The family we want to stayengaged with the parts of
ourselves we want to stayengaged with, like all of these
things that we're talking abouton the record and as we're able
to put our families together andcontinue to choose to do this
(04:41):
band together.
That's what the record is about.
It all feels very full circleand it's just the essence of
where we are in life as a bandand just also as just
mid-40-year-olds figuring outhow to live.
Sean Watkins (04:54):
Well, you guys are early 40s.
Chris Thile (04:55):
Thank, you, sean, thank you.
Jeffrey Pepper Rodgers (04:57):
I wondered.
I think the last time we spokeyou were getting ready to take
this stuff out on tour and butthe album has got so many layers
of instruments, so many layersof voices and I know you were
talking at the time about thisprocess of figuring out how to
make it work.
(05:18):
Live, the three of you plus abass.
What was that process like?
To take this pretty complicatedstudio arrangements and just
make it really work with thelive.
Chris Thile (05:32):
I'm always more worried about getting the music
onto a record than I am abouttaking music off of the record
and putting it on stage, becausewe can show you what we mean.
We can show you with ourphysicality and how we are
acting in front of you as humanbeings and seeing where you are,
(05:52):
seeing how you need to hear themusic.
We can tailor, make it for youif you're in the room, but if
we're blindfolded, with bothhands tied behind our backs,
when we give you these recordsand you take it into your
individual listening environmentand that's the tricky part it's
getting it onto record.
And why for us to have MikeElizondo and Eric Valentine on
(06:21):
the case figuring out how itfeels when we're playing this
music in a room onto speakersthrough speakers?
Sean Watkins (06:29):
That's totally true.
It's really true.
Once we get on stage we feelconfident we can have it
translate.
But, nuts and bolts wise, a lotof these songs were recorded,
like you do, instrumentallyfirst and together we would be
together, the three of us intriangle, and then we would do
(06:53):
vocals later, although Sarasaying long line live.
Is that right?
Sara Watkins (06:57):
I did a couple.
Chris Thile (06:58):
Yeah, long line and maybe a couple others.
Dennis Wall, dennis Wall, Isang a holding pattern live.
Sean Watkins (07:06):
For the most part we were just dealing with, we
didn't know the songs yet Reallylike we do now, which is we
talk about it all the time, howmaking a record and touring is
such a backwards cycle.
So there's the learning how tosing and play at the same time
and then for this album there'sa lot of involved counterpoint
(07:27):
between the rhythmiccounterpoint between the
instruments, rhythm and vocals.
For example, in the song GoingOut, which is Fast 7, there's
some Ahs.
So it's an instrumental, butthe first time we've ever put
vocals in a instrumental, Ishould say.
There's some vocals, some Ahs,and they start at like an eighth
(07:50):
note after an upstroke in Fast7.
It's like one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, one, two,
three, and so there's a coupleof things like that that for me
personally were a challenge toget in my body before we hit the
road, and certainly now it'sstarting to feel a lot better.
(08:11):
But that there's those littlenuts and bolts things too, and
those are always with any record.
Those are going to be present.
Nick Grizzle (08:22):
On this new record .
Every one of your records seemsto evolve so much, and this is
a nine years between records isa lot of time for evolution.
What songwriters have beeninfluencing you from the
previous record up to when youwere started to write this
record?
Can you recall anything newthat really sparked something
for you for this record?
Sara Watkins (08:42):
I don't know if there's one or two people whose
music I've listened to.
I wouldn't be able to draw thatline.
I hope that it's the case that,like a lot of the great music
that I've been listening to hashas seeped in in a way.
That's you know, I'm sure thatit's coming out some way.
But I think the thing that Imost credit for my personal
(09:06):
musical growth is the differentcollaborations that I get to be
a part of.
So in the family hour, sean andI get to be on stage with a lot
of people and it's not reallyrehearsal collaboration as much
as on stage performancecollaboration and just watching
how people deliver something and, you know, listening to their
(09:30):
songs, I guess in prep, butparticularly, like you know,
working with Sarah Jarosz, AoifeO'Donovan and seeing how they
write songs and also writingwith other people.
I feel like just seeing thetime that people take to write
something or maybe the way thatthey work through it quite
quickly and then re-approach.
There's so many different waysto writing songs and there's no
(09:54):
one way that I've ever repeated,but I feel like I really enjoy
seeing other people's processand find a lot of inspiration,
in sort of like sympatheticallytrying to go through the, down
the path that I imagine theirbrain went down to get to a
certain point, which isdefinitely not the path they
took, but it's the way that Ican understand.
(10:14):
So I feel like that is a hugepart of my development.
I'm sure there's other art andlistening and base and time, but
also I think I also benefitfrom having a little bit of
space in my life to processthings, where I have time to
think about what is missing inmy life or missing in the world
(10:39):
or what I want to make, and thenI'm able to actually figure out
what that is and how I would doit.
If I were to write something tofill that space, what would it
be like?
And so I benefit from like alittle bit of downtime to
organize my thoughts.
They sound definitely benefitedin my mind by the amount of
(10:59):
many approaches that we wereable to, the multiple times we
were able to approach a lyricand figure out what we really
wanted to say.
Sean Watkins (11:12):
There's also.
I think there's a certain kindof inspiration that you get when
you're a younger artist, whenyou're making your first few
albums, where you can kind oflike answer that question by
saying, oh, I was listening tothis person, this person I like,
this person's this or thisperson's that.
But I notice that as we getolder and make more albums it's
less that you know you're goingto be influenced by everything
(11:33):
you hear and that's just goingto happen and I'm just not
worried about that.
You kind of just learn to trustthat as you get older and it
becomes a little bit harder topoint to one specific thing or
the other.
And the inspiration for me comesfrom, like writing with Sarah
and Chris after so long and thethings I mean.
Sarah and I play together allthe time but we don't
(11:53):
necessarily write.
We haven't written and you know, sat down to write in years and
so, and then with Chris too,and so getting together with
them.
It's really that new kind ofchemistry, because we've got the
old chemistry, that's alwaysthere, it's always gonna be
there, but there's new chemistrybased on where we are in life
and who we've been playing with,and to me that's the most
(12:16):
inspiring component, like forthis record.
Chris Thile (12:19):
There was one thing I can point to that made a big
impact on the way I go aboutwriting a lyric.
It happened right in the middleof this process, I guess our
writing session, the first bigwriting session that we had
wrapped up what like a week ortwo before the vaccines came out
, something like that, and sotouring had just started picking
(12:45):
up again that summer and I hada little bit of time to read for
the first time in a while,because in lockdown, you know,
with a kid, there was just,there was no time for anything.
There wasn't even time to, youknow, work on the music that I
really needed to work on.
But, you know, so you'refiguring out how to do it, and
(13:07):
then you get to the end of thenight, and I know a lot of
people did a lot of greatreading over the lockdown.
But man, my wife and I, it wasjust like trying to stay sane
whilst keeping this child alivewas the vibe, and there wasn't a
whole lot of reading going on.
And so, all of a sudden, I didlike a little bit of, you know,
(13:28):
going out and playing and hadsome travel time during which to
read, and that coincided withthis incredible book by the
release of this incredible bookby George Saunders called A in
the the Pond in the Rain.
It's just like a masterclass.
It's a masterclass that heteaches at Syracuse creative
(13:49):
writing masterclass that heteaches at Syracuse in book form
, about this set of Russianshort stories.
The short stories are in thereand then his commentary is after
them and it's.
I've never read something thatwas more helpful for, I think,
anyone who makes anything,whether it's music or you know.
(14:13):
Obviously I think it would behelpful for a writer, but, like
if you paint or if you justwhatever it is that you make, I
couldn't recommend that bookmore highly.
It made me think about what Ido in a totally different way.
Jeffrey Pepper Rodgers (14:28):
I teach classes at Syracuse also and
I've known him a little bitthrough that oh over the years.
But yeah, it is a great book.
Chris Thile (14:37):
You read it too?
Jeffrey Pepper Rodgers (14:38):
I have read it.
Yeah, I was looking back at aconversation that I had with you
three 21 years ago and, interms of songwriting and lyrical
inspirations, your top threelist at that time was Counting
Crows, toad the wet sprocket,and Elliot Smith.
Chris Thile (15:00):
Wow, that sounds like we weren't lying.
Sara Watkins (15:03):
I mean, I think those songwriters made a huge
impact on us.
We were talking about thisrecently at, actually at the
soundcheck of the show that yousaw, jeffrey, it was raining
during the day and we were onthe little island of the stage
during this downpour and we weretalking about Adam Duritz's
(15:24):
songwriting and how we were justplaying a bunch of those songs
and thinking about the influenceand that was a lift off for us
lyrically, out of a traditionalfolk world or bluegrass tonality
, irish music like these themesthat are touched on, and it was
(15:46):
all of a sudden people singingabout this life that we were
alive in as well, and melodiesand this like bringing some
poetry to life and really, youknow, putting your heart into it
.
There's so many things thatthose bands, those three bands,
really influenced us on.
(16:07):
Elliot Smith, like the melodiesand especially like the Toad,
the wet sprockets, all thosechords that Glenn puts into
songs and his melody writing aswell.
It was, it was a.
Those all influenced us so muchin that time.
Sean Watkins (16:21):
Coming across those, those writers, and you
know the 90s, what waspre-internet you just heard what
was on the radio.
But you know it was a wild,wild time for music, a wild
decade when you think about it.
The stuff that got played andthe diversity, and you know
that's what we came across and,like Sara said, it really helped
(16:41):
kind of, you know, launch usinto a new zone of thinking
about music and, and you know,songwriters that we've come to
love ever since.
Chris Thile (16:52):
We're thinking about the difference between
like like here two lyrics, likeone from what we grew up with,
like this Laurel Canyon Ramblersong um, well, I went outside
for a ramble round, didn't meanto stay, just a view of the town
.
Like contrast that with um stepout the front door like a ghost
(17:12):
into a fog where no one noticesthe contrast of white on white.
Like that is a pretty seriousdisparity.
And like yeah, yeah, I wouldthink that would kind of sum up
why hearing that really blew thedoors off for us, and I I mean
from where I'm, from where I amnow.
(17:33):
Both of those are great.
Uh, like I, I love them both.
And um, but they're very, verydifferent and I think, good to
hear both if you're a youngsongwriter trying to figure out
what your voice is.
Sara Watkins (17:46):
It's the same thing as like uh or it's similar
to.
You know you can play.
You know four or five chords onon uh, you know more
traditional bluegrassinstrumentation and it sounds a
certain way.
And then you play those samechords with on piano or with uh,
with like a classic rock androll band kind of thing, or like
(18:10):
B3 organ or whatever, and it'sa totally different vibe and
it's not.
It's not at its essence.
It's the same thing.
It's just the voice that youput behind it and and you know,
or the, the lyrical tone thatyou put behind it, and it's just
, it's a.
You could relate to it in uh as, as a with a different
perspective, as like it, withlike growing up early 20s person
(18:34):
perspective, and it was.
It was nice.
Sean Watkins (18:38):
It's kind of like it feels like we've just been
hanging out with with olderpeople and adults and then all
of a sudden we met some kids ourown age and it's like, hey,
cool.
Sara Watkins (18:50):
It was also the time we were becoming I think
the world was becoming aware ofT-Bone Burnett's production,
which, very quickly, he was alsothen very involved in oh
Brother Where Art Thou Stuff.
I mean he did it which ended upbeing the closest thing to our
(19:11):
childhood music as possible, andI think it was really neat to
see someone who didn't come fromthat world as far as we knew
really dive into it andappreciate in such a high
quality way like the choices onthat soundtrack were so
beautiful.
And it was neat, I think, forme and hindsight, to see that
same person exist, the personwho made these great rock and
(19:33):
roll records that we loved andthen also made this incredible
record that paid tribute to theroots that we grew up with.
It was nice to see like, oh,this is the same thing.
Sean Watkins (19:44):
Yeah, he produced that first Ken and Crow's record
that we know of, and then alsothe Wallflower record that was
on.
Chris Thile (19:51):
So long ago, I don't remember when.
Sorry.
Sean Watkins (19:55):
Guys, we could do a 90s sing-along night all night
long.
Nickel Creek sings the hits11.32, like 1.30 am on a tour
bus.
In the front lounge Maybe, yeah, two or three negronis in.
Chris Thile (20:12):
Oh yeah you'll hear all your faves.
Stephanie (20:15):
Hi there, I'm Stephanie Campos-Dalbroi and I'm
a producer on the AcousticGuitar podcast team.
I'd like to take a moment toremind you all that this is a
listener-supported show.
We're counting on your supporttoday to keep creating new
episodes for years to come.
Please visit patreoncom slashacousticguitarplus to learn more
(20:39):
.
Membership starts at $1 permonth and comes with special
perks, including bonus episodesof the podcast, access to live
workshops, and so much more.
Thanks for listening and foryour ongoing support.
Now let's get back to the show.
Nick Grizzle (20:56):
So in this band we've got one guitar, one
mandolin, one fiddle and lots ofvoices, but you're all also
guitar players, like really,that's in your DNA as well as
your main instruments in thisband.
How does that influence thesongwriting process with Nickel
Creek?
Knowing, I mean, for Chris andSara, you're probably not going
(21:18):
to be playing guitar on thesesongs, do you?
When you come to thesongwriting table with an idea
or a demo, do you start writingthat on guitar?
Do you start writing that onyour instruments with this band?
How does that how's being aguitarist also influence the
songwriting process for NickelCreek, for you guys?
Sara Watkins (21:40):
Well, I don't know if you are aware of this, but
you don't have to write songs onguitar.
I know that's who we're talkingto.
Sean Watkins (21:50):
One of the songs started with a little piano.
A couple of them started withpiano things that Sara had, and
I think you know, writing on aninstrument that's not your main
instrument, it can be really,really helpful, can really get
you out of whatever ruts you'rein.
Even just sit yeah, I mean evenif you don't play that
(22:10):
instrument well, like I don'tplay piano well at all.
But if I sit down and play afew chords that I know
automatically they're not goingto be the voice, like I'm
voicing them on guitar, and sothen I'm going to have different
ideas than I would normally.
You know, at least my firstidea might not be the same as if
I was playing on a guitar oreven just a different guitar.
You know that makes adifference Nylon string or like
(22:33):
Nashville, like we use theNashville High Strung on a
couple songs too, and that canbe really, really helpful.
Chris Thile (22:40):
The older I get, the more I write in my head, you
know, away from any instrument,just imagining what it is that
I want to hear, and getting tothe point where I can imagine it
clearly enough, to where I canjust start playing along, you
know, or start communicating itto the band.
Nick Grizzle (22:55):
And so do you hear all the parts in your head
separately, or is it just like amelody?
You?
Chris Thile (23:01):
hear the gist of it .
Yeah, like what kind of what itsounds like?
I mean like listening to theradio, except it doesn't exist
yet.
I would encourage people toexplore that part of their
musicianship.
Our bodies can be very, verylazy.
Creatively speaking, our bodieswant to do the stuff that they
do.
They want to do that more.
(23:22):
They know how to do it.
I mean, sometimes I think wefind writer's block can rear its
ugly head when we're tied tokind of what we can think of on
an instrument as opposed to whatwe can dream up in our inner
years.
Just our heads and hearts andsouls are that's what writes
(23:42):
music.
Our fingertips are pretty lazy,lazy dreamers.
They're like, check out thisthing I can do.
And we're like, yeah, I knewyou could do that already.
God damn it.
And increasingly I find that Iwrite more on like a long walk
via my notes.
I'm not talking about lyrics,I'm talking about a song that
goes like this, where this thinghappens and then this kind of a
(24:07):
thing happens and then thiskind of a thing happens, just
typing it out like in an outlineform.
Yeah, as if describing, yeah, asif, like, I'm writing a review
of a song that I'm writing, andthen I find it's much easier to
drag something unique out ofyour inner ear with your
(24:32):
instrument, like, if you knowwhat you're looking for, then
you'll know when you find it.
Sean Watkins (24:36):
The other kind of writing.
I was sitting down yesterday Ihad like an hour, while my wife
and kid were out walking aroundI was practicing some Nickel
Creek songs and then I justfound myself writing with an
idea.
I really I hadn't written, Ihadn't really just sat down and
tried to write by myself for awhile and I realized how much
fun it is to write with otherpeople, because the
(24:58):
possibilities are endless.
If you're doing what Chris isdoing and you sit there and you
think about something for a longtime and you imagine something
in your head until it's clearenough to where you can like
bring shape to it, that'sdifferent.
But for me I was just likemessing around, like that's kind
of cool.
What if I did this?
What if I did this?
What if we went to this court?
And it can be really frustratingwithout someone else to sort of
(25:20):
guide you.
It's so fun writing with Saraand Chris because that doesn't
really happen.
They'll be like, oh, that'sreally cool, or the thing that I
thought was really cool maybeisn't resonating with them, and
so we go a different directionand you've got a direction.
So for me, yeah, writing bymyself, I think, I'm trying, I'm
thinking, I'm learning.
I'm going to have to likefigure out how to do that in a
(25:42):
new way now, because it's toughwithout people to bounce your
ideas off of.
Nick Grizzle (25:48):
That's the end of part one, tune in to part two
for more on the collaborativesongwriting process behind
Celebrants.
Visit patreoncom slash acoustic guitar plus to
access all bonus episodes of theAcoustic Guitar podcast.
The Acoustic Guitar podcast isbrought to you by the team at
Acoustic Guitar magazine.
(26:09):
I'm your host, nick Grizzel,joined for this episode by
Jeffrey Pepper Rogers.
Acoustic Guitar podcast isdirected and edited by Joey
Lusterman.
Tanya Gonzalez is our producer.
Executive producers are LyzyLusterman and Stephanie Campos
Delbroy.
Our theme song was composed byAdam Perlmutter and performed
for this episode by JeffreyPepper Rogers.
If you enjoy this podcast andwant to support us, please visit
(26:30):
our Patreon page at patreoncomslash acoustic guitar plus or
find the link in the show notesfor this episode.
As a supporter, you'll haveaccess to exclusive bonus
episodes, along with otherspecial perks and if you're
already a patron.
Thank you so much for yoursupport.
Popular Podcasts
Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang
Ding dong! Join your culture consultants, Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang, on an unforgettable journey into the beating heart of CULTURE. Alongside sizzling special guests, they GET INTO the hottest pop-culture moments of the day and the formative cultural experiences that turned them into Culturistas. Produced by the Big Money Players Network and iHeartRadio.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.