July 4, 2025 • 57 mins
🎙 Episode Title: From Tragedy to Transformation: A Life Story
In this deeply human and unforgettable episode of Across The Table, Robert Montgomery shares his raw, unfiltered story—a personal journey shaped by tragedy, accountability, and ultimately, redemption. With honesty and clarity, Robert recounts the life-altering events of 1981, the consequences that followed, and how his time in prison became a crucible for introspection, growth, and spiritual awakening.
What begins as a harrowing tale of a single moment gone wrong evolves into a powerful reflection on the nature of regret, responsibility, and personal transformation. Robert sheds light on the realities of incarceration, the emotional weight of remorse, and the small but significant steps one can take toward becoming a better man—even behind bars.
The conversation also touches on Robert’s later work in the meat industry, his views on societal issues and politics, and his evolving beliefs around reincarnation, identity, and the interconnectedness of life. From reflections on family and legacy to the importance of removing oneself from harmful situations, this episode offers a rare and courageous look into the redemptive potential of the human spirit.
💡 Key Topics Covered
- A life-changing moment and its lasting consequences
- Navigating the U.S. prison system and the search for redemption
- The emotional burden of regret and guilt
- Working in the meat industry: reflections and realities
- Societal responsibility, identity, and American values
- Reincarnation and the cycles of life
- The role of family and connection in healing
- What it means to truly grow after making mistakes
💬 Memorable Quotes
🔪 “I was there in the midst.”
🌒 “Death is just the beginning.”
🛑 “Don't do any more homicides.”
🕒 Episode Chapters
- 00:00 Introduction and Background
- 06:24 Lessons Learned from Experience
- 13:32 Life After Prison
- 19:03 Life as a Meat Cutter
- 27:37 The Earth's Balance and Human Impact
- 35:12 Identity and American Values
- 44:44 Life Experiences and Perspectives
- 50:04 Reincarnation and the Cycle of Life
📌 Tags for SEO
true crime podcast, redemption stories, prison reform, life after incarceration, personal growth journey, meat industry insights, regret and responsibility, healing from tragedy, real life transformation, spiritual growth, American identity, family and forgiveness, overcoming adversity, human experience podcast, reincarnation beliefs, societal issues discussion, podcast on life lessons
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_00 (00:00):
Welcome to Across the Table.
I'm James Fenugio, and we feelaround here everybody has a
story to tell.
So pull up a chair, have alisten to this conversation.
Today I have with me RobertMontgomery.
How are you doing today?
Good.
How about you, bro?
Oh, good enough, man.
Good enough.
Glad to have you here.
Glad to be here.
(00:20):
Yeah.
We've been buddies for a while.
Many moons.
Yeah.
Yeah, I was glad to have youcome on because you have a quite
interesting story.
How old are you now?
63.
63?
Yeah.
You caught a case in 81?
(00:41):
1981, yes.
You want to tell us about that?
It was a cold December morning.
I had been drinking with afriend of mine.
We left the bar and went to myplace.
And unfortunately, an argumentensued.
(01:02):
A light was lost.
You can solve that.
So I was charged with opencharge of homicide.
And my life's never been thesame since, obviously.
That's, yeah, that's definitelya big change.
(01:24):
Yeah.
Do you remember what the fightstarted about?
It was really over a leatherjacket that another individual
who was actually at my housesupposedly stole from the
victim.
So to resolve that, we went downthere.
(01:46):
One thing led to another.
How old were you back then?
Let's see, I was born in 61, soI was...
21.
I was 20 years old at that pointin my life.
Troubled life.
SPEAKER_01 (02:03):
Yeah,
SPEAKER_00 (02:05):
no doubt.
So what was it like growing upfor you?
I was the last of five, sevenyears between my brother and I.
And I would say I was just kindof the like in the background.
(02:25):
So I always had a big thing,it's to gain attention.
The bad part of that is I tookit to the extreme.
So kicked out of school,troubled the juvenile down a bad
path.
So you have been in the 10thStreet detention home?
(02:48):
I've been there, yes.
And Ended up in Lowrysville for60 days as I was just young,
probably 13, maybe.
What was that for?
Berkeley.
This is juvenile, yeah.
(03:09):
Got a home recommendation, camehome, probably completed that
probation.
And then worked odd jobs andstuff, you know.
Never really had a plan or...
any drive to do anything.
Joined the army and was swornin.
(03:31):
And two months before I was toleave, I got an obligation and
hurt somebody pretty badly.
And I couldn't go to the circusand discharge me.
Life might have been a littledifferent had I not turned left
(03:51):
that night.
So that wasn't for the homicide.
That was for an assault on a guythat had put his hands on me
first.
Tried to work something out so Icould still go to the service,
but that never happened.
Yeah, they weren't trying tohear that.
No, and then tragically, maybefour months after that was when
(04:19):
the homicide occurred.
Do you remember the victim'sname?
Alfred Walsh.
Alfred Walsh.
I'm sure that name sticks withyou.
He was a friend that I grew upwith for years.
Really?
Oh, yeah.
Played baseball with.
So, but it was accidental.
(04:41):
You know, even though I wascharged and found guilty in the
third degree, it was anaccident.
SPEAKER_01 (04:51):
Yeah,
SPEAKER_00 (04:51):
no doubt.
And I still feel for the family.
I believe he still has a brotherhere in Altoona, Mark.
Mark Walsh.
His twin brother, John, passedaway tragically a long time ago.
(05:14):
Part of the tank, I believe.
So you can see I've stayed up,you know, not in touch, but up
to date with what was going on.
Right.
Out of respect, you know.
Because obviously they all wouldhave known you.
No, I've never had anyconversation with any of them.
Yeah.
(05:35):
That makes sense.
Sure.
It would be hard to...
It's kind of almost like takingopen the wound as if they...
And I hope this doesn't pickopen any wounds.
Yeah.
Yeah.
No, I'm sorry.
If any of them were watchingwith would there be something
that you would want to say tohim?
(05:56):
Well, I apologize, no doubt.
I think of Alfred often.
He was a good man.
Really?
Yeah, that's something you justdon't forget?
UNKNOWN (06:10):
No.
SPEAKER_00 (06:11):
No.
You know, you can relive that.
You can relive anything.
Every day?
In your memory.
You can pull that stuff up.
Anybody can.
You can.
Anything that you've ever done,you can rerun.
You can rerun that tape.
I can.
Oh, absolutely.
(06:31):
Yeah.
I don't think there's a personout there who hasn't done
something.
It's a lesson learned.
Yeah.
Put that into practice and tryand run the tape back and see
where it left you the last time.
UNKNOWN (06:48):
Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_00 (06:49):
In a similar situation, you know.
Yeah.
What lessons would you say thatyou derived from that situation
the most?
Remove yourself from any danger,whether you be in the danger or
you be in danger.
Remove yourself from thatsituation, step back, think
(07:13):
through, run that tape.
Yeah.
See, you said done.
I'm not saying that somethinghappens.
We were just speaking aboutsoftball.
A person using a derogatorystatement for me.
And called him a motherfucker.
(07:34):
And, you know...
Anyone who's done...
Anybody who's done prison time,you don't call somebody a
motherfucker.
It just isn't done.
Because the first thing thatcomes out of my mouth is, keep
her off the street.
Right?
(07:54):
Those are fighting words.
When you say that, you have toknow that you're getting ready
to fight.
Yeah.
Obviously, whoever called you amotherfucker probably didn't
understand that.
Yeah, they probably never didtime.
So I just ejected them.
UNKNOWN (08:14):
Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_00 (08:15):
And then warned him that if he continued, he'd have
to leave the ballpark.
Yeah.
That's the adult way to handlethat.
About the prison way.
Instead of cracking him with afucking bat?
You understand what I'm sayingnow?
Yeah.
So another, you know, you livethrough things and then you
(08:36):
react and react differently.
So, obviously you spent...
A good amount of time.
What sentence did you receivefor?
15 years.
15 years?
Yeah.
Was that like total, was itseven and a half to 15?
Seven to 15.
Seven to 15.
Yeah.
You know, I probably did atleast seven eighths behind the
(09:01):
curtain.
Yeah.
You know.
But it's not as bad.
You and I were talking.
It's not as bad as people makeit out to be.
No.
You get a job.
And you go about your business.
And you live your life, man.
That's your life.
That's it.
You stay out of drugs.
You stay out of gambling.
(09:21):
You don't gamble if you can'tpay for it.
Yeah.
Close circle of friends.
Mm-hmm.
And that's the route you take.
How you sad about that fencedisappearing?
The fence just disappearseventually.
If you're facing yours...
you have to come to therealization that that's your
(09:42):
world.
That is your planet.
And you ain't going outside ofthat planet for X amount of
years, unless a riot happens.
And they burn your planet down.
Now, what year did that?
Because you were there for theriots in the hand pill.
(10:03):
What year was that?
1989.
Because I came in in 1999, whichwould have been Ten years later.
And some of the same staff werethere, but the only A, B, and C
block were there from the oldcamp, though.
The rest they had changed todifferent mod units.
(10:24):
Well, the furniture factory wasstill there, too.
I didn't get to go there.
There was mods.
Mods over here.
So they changed them, too.
But the coffee shop was burntdown.
Do you remember that?
wreck building was gutted.
They rebuilt that.
They got all that stuff backtogether.
(10:45):
And when I went back, or when Iwent in the first time, the
wreck building that they had wassuper nice, especially for the
president.
Yeah.
Yeah, it wasn't bad.
The riot was interesting, is aword I would use.
(11:06):
Yeah.
Believe it or not, after twoyears in state prison, they gave
me outside clearance.
Outside defense.
It was called a 4R back then.
And I got a job at the meatcutting plant.
Okay.
That's how it was.
(11:27):
Yeah.
Now we get to that.
Yeah, full circle.
Yeah, full circle.
So we was working hard.
Yeah.
we had to break for supperbecause we had to work late that
night.
So they brought us in fromoutside, which is where the meat
plank was across the street,Camp Hill, up on the hill.
(11:52):
And we got to E-Gate.
Just as we got to E-Gate, bigLieutenant, I almost can't
remember his name, but he had abig white beard and some inmate
would fight at E-Gate.
And just then, They kicked theyard, which they had shifted
(12:13):
down, you know, and it was on,right down, boom.
Hightail, I was in the drugprogram, so I hightailed down
there, told everybody at theriot number, man, it's going to
be bad.
So they got back that night, andthe next morning they was going
to do what they were going todo.
(12:38):
5.30 that night, man.
The news came on.
They was on the front of theprison saying, we're not
negotiating nothing.
They just reached out, startedcracking the doors.
And then they went off.
And it got real bad.
And it got bad.
(13:00):
I called home.
This is no lie.
I called home to let them knowthat it was rioting.
before I went to the yardbecause the place was burning up
while I was there.
Yeah, because from what I onlyread about it and saw it on TV,
I remember seeing the fires.
(13:21):
Yeah, I was there in the midst.
How did you watch your vibesthrough that?
Watching them drag guards out.
It wasn't proof.
Yeah.
Yeah.
because we were talking aboutSergeant Silver.
There was always that.
Yeah, but there was Vasker.
(13:44):
What was the guy's name?
Vasker.
Vasker.
Cape Block Vasker.
Interesting.
But yeah, it was another thing.
I don't know.
They came to my side.
After they got the person back,it took a few days, I think.
They had the horses in there.
Oh, yeah.
I can tell you stories about theyard.
(14:06):
because we slept in the yard fortwo nights.
Yeah.
At the end of October, it wascold.
Not bad.
Yeah.
There were some days it's realcold.
And they took us up in a box,four in a cell, and then they'd
come down the box screaming.
If you didn't have your handsup, your elbows weren't above
(14:27):
your ears.
Fixing the window.
They were coming in.
And they weren't They wererunning people across all day,
all night long, in a hole.
See, I remember heads down, armspulled up, stick on the back of
(14:48):
the neck.
Oh, I remember a couple trips tothe hole like that.
It was awful.
But then they came to my cellone day and asked me my mother's
maiden name.
Next thing I know, it was on abus going to Lewisburg.
And then put it off for life.
(15:11):
For those who don't know,Lewisburg is notoriously one of
the most dangerous prisons inthe United States.
As in Lewisburg.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Lewisburg.
It's pretty big.
Yeah.
You could put two camp hillsinside the wall at Lewisburg.
(15:36):
Yeah, sorry, it was Lewisbury.
It's close to that time, Ithink, though.
Something like that.
Yeah.
I know it wasn't that far fromNorth Lumberland.
Yeah, we were there for maybetwo days.
Put us on a plane, flew us toGeorgia.
(15:57):
Georgia?
United States Penitentiary,Atlanta.
UNKNOWN (16:03):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (16:04):
Another fucking bad start.
Yeah, you could put twoLewisburgs inside the wall.
Good grief.
Big prison.
That's, uh, yeah.
Yeah, it's unbelievable.
So that had to be an experience.
It was quite an experience.
(16:27):
And then got bused to FortGordon.
Where's Fort Gordon?
In Georgia.
It was a hot box.
I got to be a tea worker forsome.
My uncle sent word that he'dgive me a job.
They had officers coming fromall over the country to work
there, 12-hour shifts.
(16:49):
And my uncle was in Terre Haute,and the guy that's come, he
says, well, my nephews arepulling to work.
So guards from Terre Haute said,Uncle Tom says, hey.
You want to work?
Click.
Nice.
Yeah.
You know, reaching out andtouching somebody.
(17:11):
Yeah, that is pretty cool.
Ended up back in PA, eventually.
That's a story in and of itself,coming back through Atlanta.
It was quite a trip there.
In what way?
Somebody that I got...
(17:32):
When I got back to Atlanta, Iwas on the fifth range.
They have the gun walks out onthe windows, all the cells are
inside them.
50 cells long, five tiers high.
That's not Clayton Samuelswalking into Camp Hill.
No.
Well, those were, you had twotiers, but it was, God, it was
(17:57):
long.
I remember when I first got to,what was it, C Block.
I came in.
They weren't even that farapart.
That's probably about this big.
They hold about 500, I thought.
Yeah.
You look down that tier, it's solong.
I was like, oh, I'm in prison.
Yeah, I guess this is what it'sall about.
(18:23):
But, you know, I got outeventually.
Made some more mistakes in life.
Had jobs, lost jobs, hadcareers, lost careers, you know.
I was a jack of all tradestrying to find my niche.
(18:44):
Never really quite did untilrecently.
I made a big turnaround, stoppeddrinking five years ago.
Yeah, you did.
And that changed my lifeforever.
So they're not drinking.
They're not drinking.
Yeah.
You think that's a key to a lotof things?
(19:06):
I do.
It pains me to see people.
I don't go out and have a beeror a couple of cocktails.
It's one thing.
But to go to get totally drunkevery day is.
And I did it.
That was my life for a longtime.
SPEAKER_01 (19:25):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (19:26):
And I find myself hypocritical because I'm very
critical of people who do thatthat I care about.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So that's a bitter pill toswallow, the hypocritical part
of it.
UNKNOWN (19:39):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (19:40):
Because I shouldn't be like that because I've lived
that lifestyle.
Yeah.
I know it's hard to break.
You know, I guess in watchingsomebody do it, it may be more
painful than doing it yourselfor losing yourself.
In what way do you think?
The empathy I have.
(20:01):
You know, it's in contradictionto the critical way I treat this
person.
Right.
Because I do expect more frompeople.
I think you should be able tostop drinking or stop smoking or
doing what, just by saying, I'mgoing to do that.
That's a wrap.
I'm not going to do that nomore.
So that's how you did it.
You went cold turkey.
(20:22):
That was it.
I have a little bit of withmedical incentive.
But once you make that decisionthat you rather live, then you
tend to cherish the smallthings.
You don't focus on the past.
You're trying to make too muchsense of it because that was a
(20:45):
different life.
That was a different person thansits before your death.
I was a terrible dude for a longtime.
And I can't blame it on alcohol,but alcohol was a big part of
it.
Right.
Now, let's say when you got,while you were in prison, I know
(21:06):
you can get Hooch, but did you,by the time you got there, you
were pretty much a baron, Troy?
In prison?
Yeah.
Yeah, you know, we...
Hooch wasn't very good.
There were some dudes that knewhow to make some good Pruneau or
some good rice wine.
Maybe twice I had a cup ofalcohol in the big house.
(21:32):
I could have smoked more wee ifI wanted to.
That was just something I didevery once in a while.
Yeah.
Because in prison, you're prettyparanoid if you're smart.
The little stuff that you dohave can be taken away real
(21:53):
quick.
Yeah.
And that's when everything youhave fits in a little Tupperware
bin.
And you're off to...
Served you a little time.
Yeah.
I remember making chess piecesout of toilet paper.
Yeah.
With soap to hold it together.
Like the pink soap.
(22:16):
Oh, God.
At least we were allowed to havea little bit of paper in the
hole so you could write.
I used to watch him make thesleds and make them slide.
So I grew up sober with peopleall the time.
You know.
Tear-fishing.
Unbelievable.
Some of them people were good atit, boy.
(22:36):
That's something I wouldn't wantto have to spend that much time
in a hole to learn to do.
Yeah.
You know what I mean?
Yeah.
Yeah, I do.
I always got caught gambling.
We kept a pretty low key, man.
You know.
Yeah.
(22:56):
Pinochle was deciding it out.
It was a carton of man to sit atthe table with me and Pellucci.
There was a carton of person.
We were that good, me and JohnPellucci.
Never forget Pellucci, man.
Yeah, he still alive?
He was the last time I saw him,but that was in 05, maybe.
(23:18):
He was coming back through onthe same bit that he had on the
side.
Yeah.
So he split his head, man.
I'll never forget it.
He had a big scar on his head.
Me and him were in the bandtogether.
Oh, yeah.
You played guitar, too?
(23:40):
Yeah.
I forgot about that.
You learned to play upstate?
Upstate.
Taught guitar.
Taught music theory while I wasthere.
Taught music theory?
Mm-hmm.
Interesting.
I'm proud of all the softballgames.
Outside teams...
And you learned to ref while youwere up there too, right?
So I learned how to uncle Tony.
(24:02):
For those of you who don't know,Tony Ugar, good man, wrist in
peace, bro.
He made it bearable.
SPEAKER_01 (24:11):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (24:11):
And that was your uncle, was it?
He wasn't my blood uncle, but hewas Uncle Tom.
Yeah.
I know him from when you signedup for the Cordial Lounge.
And then he had, you know where10th Street Cafe is?
Yes.
There was a bar down the street.
(24:32):
He was down there.
It was a big coke deal.
But he was in with the Barillaguy.
Oh, okay.
Yeah.
You know, because that's what,what's that, Racioli's, Raciola,
Wax Wansley.
It was the other one, Caramadre.
(24:53):
Caramadre.
I was in Huntington withCaramadre and Farilla.
Yeah.
I used to take Jack Farilla tohis diabetic center to work
overnight.
Yeah.
He called me Bobby.
True story.
Yeah.
Who did the concrete boots inthe reservoir?
(25:19):
Was it that Tyrone Reservoir?
That was off, I forget.
It was off Breakers Gap.
Oh, okay.
That's what they put in.
That was, I forget the dude'sname.
I think it was Holland.
Does that sound right?
That sounds right.
(25:39):
Stabbed him in the head with anice pick.
Killed him.
Whipped him in chains, didn'the?
Well, I ain't gonna go intothat, but yeah.
Yeah.
uh and that was around here yesi don't think people realize how
much mafia had influence back inthe well yeah there was some the
(26:06):
week for jerry oh yeah iremember him there's a full wall
down by where the seven streetred used to be remember the old
south street big blue That's howyou know you were in Altoona
when I was a kid.
Across the big blue mail bridge.
(26:27):
Yeah, it was a pool hall rightthere.
I forget the name of it.
The Brunswick.
The Brunswick.
I've heard of it.
I don't necessarily remember it.
But yeah, I come full circlenow.
I'm back in Altoona living thedream now.
You know, paying bills.
(26:49):
Good credit.
Loving what you're doing.
meat cutter.
I'm surprised a lot of meatcutters end up with, like,
messed up shoulders.
Like, you know, my buddy DavidSipes, he was a butcher for a
long time, but, like, all hisshoulders and stuff are messed
up from throwing around sides ofbeef.
Well, yeah, but those days areall gone.
(27:09):
So, like, everything comes incryo-like.
Okay.
And they already have, like,smaller pieces?
Yeah, like a whole beef loin...
It was pretty big.
So you got a short loin, andthen we got a strip loin.
And then you cut it down intothose boxes of strip loins and
(27:31):
boxes of short loins.
Right.
And then we process it.
Just out of curiosity, wheredoes the meat come from?
Is it American beef?
Oh, yeah.
It's 100% American.
It boggles the mind how manyanimals get killed in this
country every day.
Oh, yeah.
Think of all the...
supermarkets in this country andthe fresh beef and pork that you
(27:56):
can get every day that's on theshelves in every city in this
country yeah you know out ofcuriosity do you know that
moving that volume of stuff okayit's it's crazy unbelievable
like millions and thousands ofcows are slaughtered hundreds of
thousands yeah that's it allright then people get paid yeah
(28:21):
No, the thing is, my buddy, heraises cattle.
He raised them for two years.
From what he was explaining tome, that we get in the
supermarket is generally about ayear.
Or less.
Or less.
But it's fresh.
Yeah.
You know, I mean, it's...
(28:42):
Yeah, especially withcryovaccing and stuff now.
That stuff's probably allautomated.
Yeah.
You know, but they still havecutters, people that shave.
You know, I find it nice.
Heal them, bleed them, skinthem.
(29:03):
You know, they don't wastenothing.
He's a hero.
Really?
Really.
Nothing is wasted.
What do they do with the skin?
No.
Hanging in bags, clothing,jackets.
Oh, yeah.
Duh.
It's beef.
That's great that they're notbarely in any ways.
(29:24):
There's no ways.
No?
Just, you know, I guess that'syou.
Yeah.
I think you need a problem witheverything.
Everything.
I worked for Silver Star Meatsfor a while.
Did you?
Yeah.
You buy chicken meat from pork.
Hot dogs.
(29:45):
Which most people, that's whatthey buy.
It's chicken meat from pork.
It's kind of like And it's alittle box of beef.
A little box of chicken.
With snouts and tongues.
Yeah.
Pork snouts and tongues.
Some of them say assholes, andthey're not kidding.
(30:07):
It's there somewhere.
Yeah, somewhere.
I feel sorry you have toimagine, but I probably don't.
A lot of stuff.
Yeah.
They don't lose nothing.
It's just amazing to me.
It is.
The way we feed a country now isway quite different.
(30:28):
It's unbelievable.
Yeah.
We've come a long way.
Think about how much longerpeople live now than they used
to.
I think it's sustainable.
And either.
I think the plan will eventuallydo something to regain balance.
That's interesting because I wastalking to Terry Martell in She
(30:51):
did it yesterday and that's whatshe was saying that we're at
this point past 26,000 yearswhere the earth and institutions
and things begin to crumble andthere's a shift back towards a
feminine versus a patriarchal inthat she says institutions and
(31:15):
governments and things willbegin to crumble.
How does it become moreempathetic?
And that we, that the earthregained its balance.
Has to.
It has to.
We're just a blip on thescreening plan.
Yeah.
The earth does not work thisway, too.
We're just a little tick, man.
(31:36):
Yeah.
How long we been going?
Well, that's 1,225 years.
Yeah.
That's it.
Yeah.
The Egyptians were over 5,000years.
And what happened to them?
They were looking back.
(31:57):
From what I understand, Egypt,the Nile region used to be not
desert.
It was a beautiful oasis.
And then Earth decided, hey,let's get back.
Taking it back.
So to think of 2025 years in thespan of a The eons on this
(32:20):
planet is just a little tinylittle tape.
It doesn't even measure.
I don't believe it does.
And we'll destroy ourselves.
Yeah.
It's sad to say.
Yeah.
But there's too much greed.
There's no brotherhood.
That we're all, why can't we alleat?
(32:44):
Yeah.
Why can't we all live welltogether?
Why can't everybody please eat?
Yeah.
You think that he's suffering,but smile at somebody, man.
Yeah.
And dude, when you break breadwith someone, you sit down like
us, have a conversation, peoplearen't screaming and yelling at
(33:04):
each other about that dumbestfucking shit.
It makes no sense, you know?
Well, you know, we know, well,the person's how I remain
nameless, but, you know, someonethat they get mad at me over
politics.
And they're like, you know, ourpolitics are so diseased, man.
(33:24):
It's disgusting.
You know, the people in thereare too old.
There should be a term limit ofat least 60 years old, man.
You can't be 60 plus.
And being about it.
Yeah, let the next generationtake over.
The youth of this nation has tostand up and say, we don't want
(33:45):
this kind of government anymore.
Yeah.
This bullshit that's going on.
It has to be a better way.
It is.
It's just human nature.
Yeah.
Because, you know, somebodysays, why can't we just leave
them people alone?
(34:05):
Well, because it's human natureto conquer.
That's all people have done formillennia is conquer other
people, make them slaves,convert them to their religion.
It's been happening since thedawn of our time, of our age.
(34:28):
And it just makes me shake myhead that We're all brothers and
sisters, man.
You just can't say it.
You're the money.
It's all about money, man.
And power.
And power.
You know, I think about, like,the closest animal to us is
(34:52):
chimpanzee.
They war with each otherconstantly.
Yeah.
It's a constant battle.
Sometimes they eat them.
SPEAKER_01 (35:01):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (35:02):
somewhere our ape brain just can't get past that.
You have to conquer.
Yeah.
And go to that higher.
And the world sits here andwatches.
And I'm no Middle East dude.
I'm no this dude or that dude.
That's my motto.
But these Palestinians aretrying to get food.
(35:26):
And the world's watching Israelkill people that are hungry.
So they're humanas.
They're still hungry.
They don't believe what youbelieve.
Okay.
Give them a piece of bread.
Start with that.
(35:48):
Reach across the table with apiece of bread.
And it's that simple to just behuman.
I know I saw a video of a mantrying to put his kid back
together.
(36:12):
Yeah, man.
If you ain't got a heart, dude,maybe you can look at that and
be like, fuck him.
I can't.
I can't.
Because me as a father, I think,what if that was me, man?
One of my kids are blown tobits.
I'm just insanely sad and tryingto, like, like you're going to
(36:35):
Frankenstein your kid backtogether.
That's hot.
It is.
And then you've seen a lot moreof like the early civil rights
movement and stuff like that.
We see still today that certainelements of our society are are
(36:58):
no better off now.
They're actually worse off.
Sure.
When other people tried to stepin, and I'm not sure the idea
was to help them.
I think it was to contain.
SPEAKER_01 (37:16):
Probably.
SPEAKER_00 (37:18):
Maybe.
I don't know.
Maybe someone had goodintentions.
I struggle with the fact thatthey still refer to themselves
as African Americans.
Not that they shouldn't identifywith their heritage, but they're
Americans.
I don't see them as black or Idon't see them as Chinese.
(37:41):
If you're an American, you'rejust American.
You're an American.
Yeah.
Which means everybody.
Yeah.
On a...
An application that asks merace, I put human.
Yeah.
(38:01):
I love it.
Yeah, right?
I love it.
Because what other race isthere?
That's the only one that reallymatters.
Human race, that's how you feelin your heart.
That's what you have to putdown.
Yeah.
I'm a human.
I'm an American human.
Yeah.
And lucky to be an American.
(38:21):
Yeah.
I do not think that people thatlive here appreciate.
I've never been outside thecountry except to Canada.
And I was good in Niagara Fallswhen I was like 12.
But from everyone I know thattravels and that, yeah, there's
(38:41):
beautiful places in the world.
No doubt.
But they can't wait to come backto America.
No doubt.
UNKNOWN (38:49):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (38:50):
It's like we're throwing it away.
You know, it's like it.
Well, that's what humans do.
A lot of fear-mongering, too.
In our nature.
But you have politicalassassinations.
A president who wants to be anautocrat, I think.
(39:18):
Not sure.
I mean...
It says a lot of stuff.
I was very impressed when hesaid, they don't know what the
fuck they're doing.
Yeah, me too.
I've been waiting for apresident to actually say that.
I wouldn't talk about you.
He was the first one, so I gotto give him credit.
That's on Nick T, Dave.
(39:41):
Imagine trying to referee that.
Two sides that have beenfighting forever, and they just
don't know What the fuck theydo?
Like, oh my God, what do we dowith peace?
It's like the dog that caughtthe car.
I got the car, what do I do withit?
(40:02):
What do you do now?
Piss on the tire.
Yeah.
But I think people doing this,sitting and talking about
experience.
Sure, you know.
(40:24):
Just kind of like relating yourbeliefs and myself, my beliefs
and the things that have changedme.
I'm a much softer person now, Ibelieve.
Oh, you're definitely softer nowthan when I first met you.
(40:46):
Yeah.
That comes with not only age,but experience.
Perspective and removing themost negative thing in your life
that's preventing you frommoving forward.
How would you define movingforward?
(41:11):
Incremental.
I didn't have good creditovernight.
That's a big thing for mebecause I was such a lousy
creditor in the past.
So it feels good to be a memberof society.
You know, a sober member ofsociety.
(41:34):
One that's paying their shareand keeping up with their bills.
But, you know, the incrementalgrowth that credit cards give
you.
You know, you start out with onethat gives you 200 bucks or
something.
You keep paying on that, and thenext thing you know, you're
getting credit cards through themail.
(41:54):
And the next thing you know,here comes one with low interest
rate,$2,500 limit, no fee.
That shows you that you're doingthe right thing.
And then you have that fallback.
And just in case you need it,then like something breaks on
(42:15):
your car.
SPEAKER_01 (42:16):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (42:17):
you know i don't worry about that nowadays
generally something breaks onyour car you're probably looking
at least a thousand dollars orat least close to that and so
how many how many families thatare say 30 and younger can
actually afford that becausethere's not many people i know
(42:41):
that are 30 and younger thatactually have financial sense at
all I know my financialsuccesses, you know, my work
ethic and I've worked for areally good company and they
(43:03):
care about their employees, theyreally do.
And it shows because they'reranked in the top of the
company, that store is rankedlike number one.
I mean, for certain differentthings, you know.
And that would be giant people?
Yeah.
(43:24):
And what is it that they likeabout them, something that makes
them such a good company to workfor?
Their core values, you know,it's respect, caring about the
community, caring about theproduct that they present to the
(43:46):
community.
Leadership is really strong.
You know, and it's like afamily.
It really is.
I enjoy going to work.
It's not like a job.
It's more like I'm going to seean old friend because that's
what I'm a meat cutter.
So there's only so many of us inthe shop.
(44:08):
But you tend to get close withguys like that.
So it's more like family, youknow, to look out for each
other.
We take care of each other.
And that's what it's supposed tobe.
And that's know i feel fortunateyou know i worked for him before
and uh lost my job of course iwas drinking at the time but um
(44:32):
they hired me back only fiveyears later gave me another
chance yeah and i'm grateful forthat i'm glad it worked out for
you doubt that's that'sexcellent it's good to hear
because a lot of A lot of felonsthink that they can't get jobs,
(44:53):
and that is not necessarilytrue.
You know, I went to JTPA andwent to umpire school in
Florida.
That was a certified majorleague umpire.
Not that I could do it becauseof my physical health.
(45:17):
But you can do anything if youresearch it, but Anybody that's
struggling with addiction, allyou got to do is stop, man.
Just stop.
It's not going to happenovernight.
It took me a long time.
Yeah.
But you'll see progress.
It's called putting in the work.
(45:37):
And you hear that all the time,people.
Oh, that's just bullshit.
Live and not live, man.
You know?
Yeah.
I believe in the incremental.
Just measure your little stuff,man.
Celebrate a week.
Not by having a drink.
(45:59):
But you can still have funwithout alcohol.
I feel fortunate with my healththat I can still walk my dogs.
Which, you know, I'm I love mydogs.
Yes, you do.
What's your dog's names?
(46:19):
Jack.
Traveling Jack and Buddy.
Which are both Jack, Terry, andRussell.
Jack, Russell, Terry.
Yeah, they're pretty cool.
That's awesome.
Yeah.
So life's good, man.
It's good on this side.
It is.
Better than having a gatekeeper.
A butcher.
You liking it now?
(46:40):
Yeah.
Want money now?
Three.
Three, yeah.
How is the young man?
I'm not going to turn thisinterview around, but how is
your boy?
Good.
He was my first interview.
Was he, Rob?
He's 21.
He's 90% in the union now.
(47:02):
Sweet.
So he only has 500 more hours towork.
All his schoollings tell him hehas all his certifications.
Good for him.
Yeah.
And he's pretty excited abouthis clothing line because he
knows he doesn't want to be inconstruction forever.
He does.
So he's trying to.
Well, sure.
SPEAKER_01 (47:20):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (47:21):
But yeah, I've been pretty proud of him.
Doesn't really drink.
Doesn't smoke.
Goes to the gym.
Nice.
SPEAKER_01 (47:27):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (47:28):
I'm pretty happy for him.
He seems to be enjoying hislife.
Yeah, I got it.
nine grandchildren down inflorida good grief two daughters
i have yeah i've never met yourdaughters she hasn't been there
for probably 20 years yeahthey've been down south
(47:50):
somewhere different places yeahnine grandkids how's that though
having grandkids it's prettycool man you know i don't say
them so I'd like to live nearthem so they come over and hang
out with pops, you know.
Yeah.
Isn't that, you were, weren'tyou headed to South Carolina or
Florida?
(48:10):
I'll keep thinking about it,but, I mean, I'm getting me cut
and drop down there.
I travel well.
My skills travel everywhere.
And even on fire, I can get,yeah, big bucks down there, so.
Probably, yeah.
90, 100 bucks a game.
(48:32):
That's not too bad.
That's not too bad at all.
But the meat cutters probablymake more money.
Yeah.
25 plus probably.
Yeah.
Heck yeah.
That's awesome.
I mean, at least your shieldstravel well.
Yeah, buddy.
Yeah.
They won't just stay here.
Certified chef.
Oh, yeah, that's right.
(48:53):
Yeah, I forgot about that.
I didn't read, man.
There were a lot of schools backthen.
Yeah, where'd you get that one,then?
Pittsburgh.
Pittsburgh.
So why didn't you ever followthat one?
I found out I didn't likeworking in a professional
kitchen.
(49:14):
Very fast-paced.
Yeah, I worked at the PittsburghHilton for a while.
Did you?
Sous-champ.
Worked at the Stone Mansion andSewickley.
I kind of know where that's at.
S-E-W-I-C-K-L-E-Y.
North of Pittsburgh.
Okay.
(49:35):
Right.
So you're in Butler?
No, Butler's over aboutSewickley, straight up.
That's like, okay, straightnorth.
Where Butler's liveable.
East.
Northeast.
I never did the Sheets andMeadville, which is up by Lake
(49:58):
Erie, and I had to go throughButler, and I swear I saw signs
for sure.
I know.
I've seen those signs out there.
It might have.
It could be a super place.
It was back.
It was a nice place.
I won't forget that place.
It looked like a big, warm, notcastle, but one of them old...
(50:22):
The Ingle Mountains.
Yeah.
The big stones.
Mm-hmm.
Stone ranching.
SPEAKER_01 (50:27):
Wow.
SPEAKER_00 (50:28):
I love that little architecture stuff.
Yeah, I do.
Downtown Pittsburgh got somereally nice churches checked out
sometime.
Yeah.
Old y'all.
Someone got killed at one ofthose churches on a construction
site last week.
Pittsburgh?
(50:48):
Mm-hmm.
UNKNOWN (50:49):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (50:49):
It was really 1700 Detroit downtown.
We were like, wow, Fort Pet inthe jail.
Down by the old jail.
That baby's old.
Yeah, when did that start?
(51:10):
Like, 1700 or something likethat.
Yeah.
I think the Mulling Meguiarswere there.
Yeah.
I'm pretty sure.
And then they started in, was itCarbon County?
Somewhere, but I think theyended up in Pittsburgh, didn't
they?
Yeah.
That's quite a fascinating storyalso.
(51:30):
Yeah.
So it is.
Pennsylvania has such richhistory.
Don't you remember when you werejust sitting there having a
conversation?
Yeah, absolutely.
How about that?
When's the last time you thoughtof the Molly Maguires?
Uh, last time I went to Molly.
Yeah, I didn't really, uh, Iremember as a kid hearing about
(51:59):
them and that they had to dowith coal.
I never really, you know, butthen once I started reading,
wow.
What'd you read a lot of whileyou were locked up?
Novels, mostly.
(52:20):
Yeah.
Fiction.
Who's your favorite author?
Stephen King.
Me too.
You could stay in those booksfor hours.
Yeah, I was intrigued with theTalisman and then the follow-up,
Black House.
Mm-hmm.
(52:41):
And flipping into differentworlds.
Mm-hmm.
And the concept of that.
UNKNOWN (52:47):
Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_00 (52:48):
And his books were very interchangeable.
A lot of the characters willcome back in different ways.
Like the Gunslinger series.
Yeah, I love that series.
Dark Tally.
Yeah.
But no, I was intrigued by theflip.
That made me think of how theyspeak of reincarnation and
(53:12):
seeing another side.
I know when you get into likequantum physics and stuff that
we could exist on differentplanes.
I'm counting on it.
I'm hoping that there's likereally a point.
(53:36):
I feel like there has to be apoint to this existence, this
consciousness.
I just think that we keep onmoving.
I think...
It's interchangeable.
I believe that we've all livedpast lives.
I believe deja vu is just a spotin time where you would have it
(53:58):
the same space as the personbefore you was.
You understand what I'm saying?
Yeah.
When you go, wow, that feelslike I did that before.
Yeah.
Yeah, we're just like the glitchin the matrix.
UNKNOWN (54:15):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (54:16):
If you put it in today's terms, I guess, yeah.
Where you're almost likecrossing paths with.
Yeah, you actually bump into thesame spot in time.
And it happens.
I believe it does.
So, yeah, I think that all thesouls have gone before us.
(54:36):
You know, I've had, notout-of-body experiences, but
I've had some shit that I'veseen that's made me go, I think
I've been there before.
So I think if you just go backthrough time, and if everybody
(54:57):
just keeps flipping, becausewe're electric energy, and it
has to go somewhere, it justdoesn't go.
It cannot be created ordestroyed.
Right.
It has to go somewhere.
And I think it just goes to thenext circuit.
yeah on three times over andover and over you just don't end
(55:20):
their conscious memory of it butsometimes you do some people
recount that i find myself in alarge meadow it's beautiful
there should be distance andwhatever you know that's for
everybody yeah that'sinteresting because the guests i
(55:43):
had last night she's had maybeuh terry she's Tunals energy.
Tunals different things.
She does pass life regression,also.
Yeah.
I fully believe we both livethousands of lives before we
die.
Yeah, her idea is that you keepcoming back until you learn what
(56:09):
you need to learn.
I don't know that there's thatbig of a...
demand on it.
I believe it's just the naturalway things go.
I can definitely see that too.
You know what I'm saying?
That it's just continuous overand over and over.
(56:31):
The circle of life?
The circle of life.
You know, a lot of people youhear, they say death is just the
beginning.
I've heard that many times.
I'm just stepping into anotherroom.
That's what it said on UncleTone's double tap thing.
(56:54):
Just stepping into another room.
You'll see me again.
I just stepped into anotherroom.
Yeah.
I believe that.
And Uncle Tone said, if youcan't bury them with brilliance,
baffle them with bullshit.
I use that one all the time.
I need a cigarette, buddy.
(57:15):
Yeah.
Well, you know what?
We can wrap it up then.
All right.
I appreciate you coming anddoing this with me, brother.
No problem, bro.
I think it'll help people.
It might.
We'll see.
We're about to go on the side.
We're about to go on the side.
Yeah, yeah.
Don't do it anymore on the side.
And that's a wrap.
Yeah.
Welcome to Across the Table.
I'm James Fenugio, and we feelaround here everybody has a
story to tell.
So pull up a chair, have alisten to this conversation.
Today I have with me RobertMontgomery.
How are you doing today?
Good.
How about you, bro?
Oh, good enough, man.
Good enough.
Glad to have you here.
Glad to be here.
(00:20):
Yeah.
We've been buddies for a while.
Many moons.
Yeah.
Yeah, I was glad to have youcome on because you have a quite
interesting story.
How old are you now?
63.
63?
Yeah.
You caught a case in 81?
(00:41):
1981, yes.
You want to tell us about that?
It was a cold December morning.
I had been drinking with afriend of mine.
We left the bar and went to myplace.
And unfortunately, an argumentensued.
(01:02):
A light was lost.
You can solve that.
So I was charged with opencharge of homicide.
And my life's never been thesame since, obviously.
That's, yeah, that's definitelya big change.
(01:24):
Yeah.
Do you remember what the fightstarted about?
It was really over a leatherjacket that another individual
who was actually at my housesupposedly stole from the
victim.
So to resolve that, we went downthere.
(01:46):
One thing led to another.
How old were you back then?
Let's see, I was born in 61, soI was...
21.
I was 20 years old at that pointin my life.
Troubled life.
SPEAKER_01 (02:03):
Yeah,
SPEAKER_00 (02:05):
no doubt.
So what was it like growing upfor you?
I was the last of five, sevenyears between my brother and I.
And I would say I was just kindof the like in the background.
(02:25):
So I always had a big thing,it's to gain attention.
The bad part of that is I tookit to the extreme.
So kicked out of school,troubled the juvenile down a bad
path.
So you have been in the 10thStreet detention home?
(02:48):
I've been there, yes.
And Ended up in Lowrysville for60 days as I was just young,
probably 13, maybe.
What was that for?
Berkeley.
This is juvenile, yeah.
(03:09):
Got a home recommendation, camehome, probably completed that
probation.
And then worked odd jobs andstuff, you know.
Never really had a plan or...
any drive to do anything.
Joined the army and was swornin.
(03:31):
And two months before I was toleave, I got an obligation and
hurt somebody pretty badly.
And I couldn't go to the circusand discharge me.
Life might have been a littledifferent had I not turned left
(03:51):
that night.
So that wasn't for the homicide.
That was for an assault on a guythat had put his hands on me
first.
Tried to work something out so Icould still go to the service,
but that never happened.
Yeah, they weren't trying tohear that.
No, and then tragically, maybefour months after that was when
(04:19):
the homicide occurred.
Do you remember the victim'sname?
Alfred Walsh.
Alfred Walsh.
I'm sure that name sticks withyou.
He was a friend that I grew upwith for years.
Really?
Oh, yeah.
Played baseball with.
So, but it was accidental.
(04:41):
You know, even though I wascharged and found guilty in the
third degree, it was anaccident.
SPEAKER_01 (04:51):
Yeah,
SPEAKER_00 (04:51):
no doubt.
And I still feel for the family.
I believe he still has a brotherhere in Altoona, Mark.
Mark Walsh.
His twin brother, John, passedaway tragically a long time ago.
(05:14):
Part of the tank, I believe.
So you can see I've stayed up,you know, not in touch, but up
to date with what was going on.
Right.
Out of respect, you know.
Because obviously they all wouldhave known you.
No, I've never had anyconversation with any of them.
Yeah.
(05:35):
That makes sense.
Sure.
It would be hard to...
It's kind of almost like takingopen the wound as if they...
And I hope this doesn't pickopen any wounds.
Yeah.
Yeah.
No, I'm sorry.
If any of them were watchingwith would there be something
that you would want to say tohim?
(05:56):
Well, I apologize, no doubt.
I think of Alfred often.
He was a good man.
Really?
Yeah, that's something you justdon't forget?
UNKNOWN (06:10):
No.
SPEAKER_00 (06:11):
No.
You know, you can relive that.
You can relive anything.
Every day?
In your memory.
You can pull that stuff up.
Anybody can.
You can.
Anything that you've ever done,you can rerun.
You can rerun that tape.
I can.
Oh, absolutely.
(06:31):
Yeah.
I don't think there's a personout there who hasn't done
something.
It's a lesson learned.
Yeah.
Put that into practice and tryand run the tape back and see
where it left you the last time.
UNKNOWN (06:48):
Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_00 (06:49):
In a similar situation, you know.
Yeah.
What lessons would you say thatyou derived from that situation
the most?
Remove yourself from any danger,whether you be in the danger or
you be in danger.
Remove yourself from thatsituation, step back, think
(07:13):
through, run that tape.
Yeah.
See, you said done.
I'm not saying that somethinghappens.
We were just speaking aboutsoftball.
A person using a derogatorystatement for me.
And called him a motherfucker.
(07:34):
And, you know...
Anyone who's done...
Anybody who's done prison time,you don't call somebody a
motherfucker.
It just isn't done.
Because the first thing thatcomes out of my mouth is, keep
her off the street.
Right?
(07:54):
Those are fighting words.
When you say that, you have toknow that you're getting ready
to fight.
Yeah.
Obviously, whoever called you amotherfucker probably didn't
understand that.
Yeah, they probably never didtime.
So I just ejected them.
UNKNOWN (08:14):
Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_00 (08:15):
And then warned him that if he continued, he'd have
to leave the ballpark.
Yeah.
That's the adult way to handlethat.
About the prison way.
Instead of cracking him with afucking bat?
You understand what I'm sayingnow?
Yeah.
So another, you know, you livethrough things and then you
(08:36):
react and react differently.
So, obviously you spent...
A good amount of time.
What sentence did you receivefor?
15 years.
15 years?
Yeah.
Was that like total, was itseven and a half to 15?
Seven to 15.
Seven to 15.
Yeah.
You know, I probably did atleast seven eighths behind the
(09:01):
curtain.
Yeah.
You know.
But it's not as bad.
You and I were talking.
It's not as bad as people makeit out to be.
No.
You get a job.
And you go about your business.
And you live your life, man.
That's your life.
That's it.
You stay out of drugs.
You stay out of gambling.
(09:21):
You don't gamble if you can'tpay for it.
Yeah.
Close circle of friends.
Mm-hmm.
And that's the route you take.
How you sad about that fencedisappearing?
The fence just disappearseventually.
If you're facing yours...
you have to come to therealization that that's your
(09:42):
world.
That is your planet.
And you ain't going outside ofthat planet for X amount of
years, unless a riot happens.
And they burn your planet down.
Now, what year did that?
Because you were there for theriots in the hand pill.
(10:03):
What year was that?
1989.
Because I came in in 1999, whichwould have been Ten years later.
And some of the same staff werethere, but the only A, B, and C
block were there from the oldcamp, though.
The rest they had changed todifferent mod units.
(10:24):
Well, the furniture factory wasstill there, too.
I didn't get to go there.
There was mods.
Mods over here.
So they changed them, too.
But the coffee shop was burntdown.
Do you remember that?
wreck building was gutted.
They rebuilt that.
They got all that stuff backtogether.
(10:45):
And when I went back, or when Iwent in the first time, the
wreck building that they had wassuper nice, especially for the
president.
Yeah.
Yeah, it wasn't bad.
The riot was interesting, is aword I would use.
(11:06):
Yeah.
Believe it or not, after twoyears in state prison, they gave
me outside clearance.
Outside defense.
It was called a 4R back then.
And I got a job at the meatcutting plant.
Okay.
That's how it was.
(11:27):
Yeah.
Now we get to that.
Yeah, full circle.
Yeah, full circle.
So we was working hard.
Yeah.
we had to break for supperbecause we had to work late that
night.
So they brought us in fromoutside, which is where the meat
plank was across the street,Camp Hill, up on the hill.
(11:52):
And we got to E-Gate.
Just as we got to E-Gate, bigLieutenant, I almost can't
remember his name, but he had abig white beard and some inmate
would fight at E-Gate.
And just then, They kicked theyard, which they had shifted
(12:13):
down, you know, and it was on,right down, boom.
Hightail, I was in the drugprogram, so I hightailed down
there, told everybody at theriot number, man, it's going to
be bad.
So they got back that night, andthe next morning they was going
to do what they were going todo.
(12:38):
5.30 that night, man.
The news came on.
They was on the front of theprison saying, we're not
negotiating nothing.
They just reached out, startedcracking the doors.
And then they went off.
And it got real bad.
And it got bad.
(13:00):
I called home.
This is no lie.
I called home to let them knowthat it was rioting.
before I went to the yardbecause the place was burning up
while I was there.
Yeah, because from what I onlyread about it and saw it on TV,
I remember seeing the fires.
(13:21):
Yeah, I was there in the midst.
How did you watch your vibesthrough that?
Watching them drag guards out.
It wasn't proof.
Yeah.
Yeah.
because we were talking aboutSergeant Silver.
There was always that.
Yeah, but there was Vasker.
(13:44):
What was the guy's name?
Vasker.
Vasker.
Cape Block Vasker.
Interesting.
But yeah, it was another thing.
I don't know.
They came to my side.
After they got the person back,it took a few days, I think.
They had the horses in there.
Oh, yeah.
I can tell you stories about theyard.
(14:06):
because we slept in the yard fortwo nights.
Yeah.
At the end of October, it wascold.
Not bad.
Yeah.
There were some days it's realcold.
And they took us up in a box,four in a cell, and then they'd
come down the box screaming.
If you didn't have your handsup, your elbows weren't above
(14:27):
your ears.
Fixing the window.
They were coming in.
And they weren't They wererunning people across all day,
all night long, in a hole.
See, I remember heads down, armspulled up, stick on the back of
(14:48):
the neck.
Oh, I remember a couple trips tothe hole like that.
It was awful.
But then they came to my cellone day and asked me my mother's
maiden name.
Next thing I know, it was on abus going to Lewisburg.
And then put it off for life.
(15:11):
For those who don't know,Lewisburg is notoriously one of
the most dangerous prisons inthe United States.
As in Lewisburg.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Lewisburg.
It's pretty big.
Yeah.
You could put two camp hillsinside the wall at Lewisburg.
(15:36):
Yeah, sorry, it was Lewisbury.
It's close to that time, Ithink, though.
Something like that.
Yeah.
I know it wasn't that far fromNorth Lumberland.
Yeah, we were there for maybetwo days.
Put us on a plane, flew us toGeorgia.
(15:57):
Georgia?
United States Penitentiary,Atlanta.
UNKNOWN (16:03):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (16:04):
Another fucking bad start.
Yeah, you could put twoLewisburgs inside the wall.
Good grief.
Big prison.
That's, uh, yeah.
Yeah, it's unbelievable.
So that had to be an experience.
It was quite an experience.
(16:27):
And then got bused to FortGordon.
Where's Fort Gordon?
In Georgia.
It was a hot box.
I got to be a tea worker forsome.
My uncle sent word that he'dgive me a job.
They had officers coming fromall over the country to work
there, 12-hour shifts.
(16:49):
And my uncle was in Terre Haute,and the guy that's come, he
says, well, my nephews arepulling to work.
So guards from Terre Haute said,Uncle Tom says, hey.
You want to work?
Click.
Nice.
Yeah.
You know, reaching out andtouching somebody.
(17:11):
Yeah, that is pretty cool.
Ended up back in PA, eventually.
That's a story in and of itself,coming back through Atlanta.
It was quite a trip there.
In what way?
Somebody that I got...
(17:32):
When I got back to Atlanta, Iwas on the fifth range.
They have the gun walks out onthe windows, all the cells are
inside them.
50 cells long, five tiers high.
That's not Clayton Samuelswalking into Camp Hill.
No.
Well, those were, you had twotiers, but it was, God, it was
(17:57):
long.
I remember when I first got to,what was it, C Block.
I came in.
They weren't even that farapart.
That's probably about this big.
They hold about 500, I thought.
Yeah.
You look down that tier, it's solong.
I was like, oh, I'm in prison.
Yeah, I guess this is what it'sall about.
(18:23):
But, you know, I got outeventually.
Made some more mistakes in life.
Had jobs, lost jobs, hadcareers, lost careers, you know.
I was a jack of all tradestrying to find my niche.
(18:44):
Never really quite did untilrecently.
I made a big turnaround, stoppeddrinking five years ago.
Yeah, you did.
And that changed my lifeforever.
So they're not drinking.
They're not drinking.
Yeah.
You think that's a key to a lotof things?
(19:06):
I do.
It pains me to see people.
I don't go out and have a beeror a couple of cocktails.
It's one thing.
But to go to get totally drunkevery day is.
And I did it.
That was my life for a longtime.
SPEAKER_01 (19:25):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (19:26):
And I find myself hypocritical because I'm very
critical of people who do thatthat I care about.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So that's a bitter pill toswallow, the hypocritical part
of it.
UNKNOWN (19:39):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (19:40):
Because I shouldn't be like that because I've lived
that lifestyle.
Yeah.
I know it's hard to break.
You know, I guess in watchingsomebody do it, it may be more
painful than doing it yourselfor losing yourself.
In what way do you think?
The empathy I have.
(20:01):
You know, it's in contradictionto the critical way I treat this
person.
Right.
Because I do expect more frompeople.
I think you should be able tostop drinking or stop smoking or
doing what, just by saying, I'mgoing to do that.
That's a wrap.
I'm not going to do that nomore.
So that's how you did it.
You went cold turkey.
(20:22):
That was it.
I have a little bit of withmedical incentive.
But once you make that decisionthat you rather live, then you
tend to cherish the smallthings.
You don't focus on the past.
You're trying to make too muchsense of it because that was a
(20:45):
different life.
That was a different person thansits before your death.
I was a terrible dude for a longtime.
And I can't blame it on alcohol,but alcohol was a big part of
it.
Right.
Now, let's say when you got,while you were in prison, I know
(21:06):
you can get Hooch, but did you,by the time you got there, you
were pretty much a baron, Troy?
In prison?
Yeah.
Yeah, you know, we...
Hooch wasn't very good.
There were some dudes that knewhow to make some good Pruneau or
some good rice wine.
Maybe twice I had a cup ofalcohol in the big house.
(21:32):
I could have smoked more wee ifI wanted to.
That was just something I didevery once in a while.
Yeah.
Because in prison, you're prettyparanoid if you're smart.
The little stuff that you dohave can be taken away real
(21:53):
quick.
Yeah.
And that's when everything youhave fits in a little Tupperware
bin.
And you're off to...
Served you a little time.
Yeah.
I remember making chess piecesout of toilet paper.
Yeah.
With soap to hold it together.
Like the pink soap.
(22:16):
Oh, God.
At least we were allowed to havea little bit of paper in the
hole so you could write.
I used to watch him make thesleds and make them slide.
So I grew up sober with peopleall the time.
You know.
Tear-fishing.
Unbelievable.
Some of them people were good atit, boy.
(22:36):
That's something I wouldn't wantto have to spend that much time
in a hole to learn to do.
Yeah.
You know what I mean?
Yeah.
Yeah, I do.
I always got caught gambling.
We kept a pretty low key, man.
You know.
Yeah.
(22:56):
Pinochle was deciding it out.
It was a carton of man to sit atthe table with me and Pellucci.
There was a carton of person.
We were that good, me and JohnPellucci.
Never forget Pellucci, man.
Yeah, he still alive?
He was the last time I saw him,but that was in 05, maybe.
(23:18):
He was coming back through onthe same bit that he had on the
side.
Yeah.
So he split his head, man.
I'll never forget it.
He had a big scar on his head.
Me and him were in the bandtogether.
Oh, yeah.
You played guitar, too?
(23:40):
Yeah.
I forgot about that.
You learned to play upstate?
Upstate.
Taught guitar.
Taught music theory while I wasthere.
Taught music theory?
Mm-hmm.
Interesting.
I'm proud of all the softballgames.
Outside teams...
And you learned to ref while youwere up there too, right?
So I learned how to uncle Tony.
(24:02):
For those of you who don't know,Tony Ugar, good man, wrist in
peace, bro.
He made it bearable.
SPEAKER_01 (24:11):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (24:11):
And that was your uncle, was it?
He wasn't my blood uncle, but hewas Uncle Tom.
Yeah.
I know him from when you signedup for the Cordial Lounge.
And then he had, you know where10th Street Cafe is?
Yes.
There was a bar down the street.
(24:32):
He was down there.
It was a big coke deal.
But he was in with the Barillaguy.
Oh, okay.
Yeah.
You know, because that's what,what's that, Racioli's, Raciola,
Wax Wansley.
It was the other one, Caramadre.
(24:53):
Caramadre.
I was in Huntington withCaramadre and Farilla.
Yeah.
I used to take Jack Farilla tohis diabetic center to work
overnight.
Yeah.
He called me Bobby.
True story.
Yeah.
Who did the concrete boots inthe reservoir?
(25:19):
Was it that Tyrone Reservoir?
That was off, I forget.
It was off Breakers Gap.
Oh, okay.
That's what they put in.
That was, I forget the dude'sname.
I think it was Holland.
Does that sound right?
That sounds right.
(25:39):
Stabbed him in the head with anice pick.
Killed him.
Whipped him in chains, didn'the?
Well, I ain't gonna go intothat, but yeah.
Yeah.
uh and that was around here yesi don't think people realize how
much mafia had influence back inthe well yeah there was some the
(26:06):
week for jerry oh yeah iremember him there's a full wall
down by where the seven streetred used to be remember the old
south street big blue That's howyou know you were in Altoona
when I was a kid.
Across the big blue mail bridge.
(26:27):
Yeah, it was a pool hall rightthere.
I forget the name of it.
The Brunswick.
The Brunswick.
I've heard of it.
I don't necessarily remember it.
But yeah, I come full circlenow.
I'm back in Altoona living thedream now.
You know, paying bills.
(26:49):
Good credit.
Loving what you're doing.
meat cutter.
I'm surprised a lot of meatcutters end up with, like,
messed up shoulders.
Like, you know, my buddy DavidSipes, he was a butcher for a
long time, but, like, all hisshoulders and stuff are messed
up from throwing around sides ofbeef.
Well, yeah, but those days areall gone.
(27:09):
So, like, everything comes incryo-like.
Okay.
And they already have, like,smaller pieces?
Yeah, like a whole beef loin...
It was pretty big.
So you got a short loin, andthen we got a strip loin.
And then you cut it down intothose boxes of strip loins and
(27:31):
boxes of short loins.
Right.
And then we process it.
Just out of curiosity, wheredoes the meat come from?
Is it American beef?
Oh, yeah.
It's 100% American.
It boggles the mind how manyanimals get killed in this
country every day.
Oh, yeah.
Think of all the...
supermarkets in this country andthe fresh beef and pork that you
(27:56):
can get every day that's on theshelves in every city in this
country yeah you know out ofcuriosity do you know that
moving that volume of stuff okayit's it's crazy unbelievable
like millions and thousands ofcows are slaughtered hundreds of
thousands yeah that's it allright then people get paid yeah
(28:21):
No, the thing is, my buddy, heraises cattle.
He raised them for two years.
From what he was explaining tome, that we get in the
supermarket is generally about ayear.
Or less.
Or less.
But it's fresh.
Yeah.
You know, I mean, it's...
(28:42):
Yeah, especially withcryovaccing and stuff now.
That stuff's probably allautomated.
Yeah.
You know, but they still havecutters, people that shave.
You know, I find it nice.
Heal them, bleed them, skinthem.
(29:03):
You know, they don't wastenothing.
He's a hero.
Really?
Really.
Nothing is wasted.
What do they do with the skin?
No.
Hanging in bags, clothing,jackets.
Oh, yeah.
Duh.
It's beef.
That's great that they're notbarely in any ways.
(29:24):
There's no ways.
No?
Just, you know, I guess that'syou.
Yeah.
I think you need a problem witheverything.
Everything.
I worked for Silver Star Meatsfor a while.
Did you?
Yeah.
You buy chicken meat from pork.
Hot dogs.
(29:45):
Which most people, that's whatthey buy.
It's chicken meat from pork.
It's kind of like And it's alittle box of beef.
A little box of chicken.
With snouts and tongues.
Yeah.
Pork snouts and tongues.
Some of them say assholes, andthey're not kidding.
(30:07):
It's there somewhere.
Yeah, somewhere.
I feel sorry you have toimagine, but I probably don't.
A lot of stuff.
Yeah.
They don't lose nothing.
It's just amazing to me.
It is.
The way we feed a country now isway quite different.
(30:28):
It's unbelievable.
Yeah.
We've come a long way.
Think about how much longerpeople live now than they used
to.
I think it's sustainable.
And either.
I think the plan will eventuallydo something to regain balance.
That's interesting because I wastalking to Terry Martell in She
(30:51):
did it yesterday and that's whatshe was saying that we're at
this point past 26,000 yearswhere the earth and institutions
and things begin to crumble andthere's a shift back towards a
feminine versus a patriarchal inthat she says institutions and
(31:15):
governments and things willbegin to crumble.
How does it become moreempathetic?
And that we, that the earthregained its balance.
Has to.
It has to.
We're just a blip on thescreening plan.
Yeah.
The earth does not work thisway, too.
We're just a little tick, man.
(31:36):
Yeah.
How long we been going?
Well, that's 1,225 years.
Yeah.
That's it.
Yeah.
The Egyptians were over 5,000years.
And what happened to them?
They were looking back.
(31:57):
From what I understand, Egypt,the Nile region used to be not
desert.
It was a beautiful oasis.
And then Earth decided, hey,let's get back.
Taking it back.
So to think of 2025 years in thespan of a The eons on this
(32:20):
planet is just a little tinylittle tape.
It doesn't even measure.
I don't believe it does.
And we'll destroy ourselves.
Yeah.
It's sad to say.
Yeah.
But there's too much greed.
There's no brotherhood.
That we're all, why can't we alleat?
(32:44):
Yeah.
Why can't we all live welltogether?
Why can't everybody please eat?
Yeah.
You think that he's suffering,but smile at somebody, man.
Yeah.
And dude, when you break breadwith someone, you sit down like
us, have a conversation, peoplearen't screaming and yelling at
(33:04):
each other about that dumbestfucking shit.
It makes no sense, you know?
Well, you know, we know, well,the person's how I remain
nameless, but, you know, someonethat they get mad at me over
politics.
And they're like, you know, ourpolitics are so diseased, man.
(33:24):
It's disgusting.
You know, the people in thereare too old.
There should be a term limit ofat least 60 years old, man.
You can't be 60 plus.
And being about it.
Yeah, let the next generationtake over.
The youth of this nation has tostand up and say, we don't want
(33:45):
this kind of government anymore.
Yeah.
This bullshit that's going on.
It has to be a better way.
It is.
It's just human nature.
Yeah.
Because, you know, somebodysays, why can't we just leave
them people alone?
(34:05):
Well, because it's human natureto conquer.
That's all people have done formillennia is conquer other
people, make them slaves,convert them to their religion.
It's been happening since thedawn of our time, of our age.
(34:28):
And it just makes me shake myhead that We're all brothers and
sisters, man.
You just can't say it.
You're the money.
It's all about money, man.
And power.
And power.
You know, I think about, like,the closest animal to us is
(34:52):
chimpanzee.
They war with each otherconstantly.
Yeah.
It's a constant battle.
Sometimes they eat them.
SPEAKER_01 (35:01):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (35:02):
somewhere our ape brain just can't get past that.
You have to conquer.
Yeah.
And go to that higher.
And the world sits here andwatches.
And I'm no Middle East dude.
I'm no this dude or that dude.
That's my motto.
But these Palestinians aretrying to get food.
(35:26):
And the world's watching Israelkill people that are hungry.
So they're humanas.
They're still hungry.
They don't believe what youbelieve.
Okay.
Give them a piece of bread.
Start with that.
(35:48):
Reach across the table with apiece of bread.
And it's that simple to just behuman.
I know I saw a video of a mantrying to put his kid back
together.
(36:12):
Yeah, man.
If you ain't got a heart, dude,maybe you can look at that and
be like, fuck him.
I can't.
I can't.
Because me as a father, I think,what if that was me, man?
One of my kids are blown tobits.
I'm just insanely sad and tryingto, like, like you're going to
(36:35):
Frankenstein your kid backtogether.
That's hot.
It is.
And then you've seen a lot moreof like the early civil rights
movement and stuff like that.
We see still today that certainelements of our society are are
(36:58):
no better off now.
They're actually worse off.
Sure.
When other people tried to stepin, and I'm not sure the idea
was to help them.
I think it was to contain.
SPEAKER_01 (37:16):
Probably.
SPEAKER_00 (37:18):
Maybe.
I don't know.
Maybe someone had goodintentions.
I struggle with the fact thatthey still refer to themselves
as African Americans.
Not that they shouldn't identifywith their heritage, but they're
Americans.
I don't see them as black or Idon't see them as Chinese.
(37:41):
If you're an American, you'rejust American.
You're an American.
Yeah.
Which means everybody.
Yeah.
On a...
An application that asks merace, I put human.
Yeah.
(38:01):
I love it.
Yeah, right?
I love it.
Because what other race isthere?
That's the only one that reallymatters.
Human race, that's how you feelin your heart.
That's what you have to putdown.
Yeah.
I'm a human.
I'm an American human.
Yeah.
And lucky to be an American.
(38:21):
Yeah.
I do not think that people thatlive here appreciate.
I've never been outside thecountry except to Canada.
And I was good in Niagara Fallswhen I was like 12.
But from everyone I know thattravels and that, yeah, there's
(38:41):
beautiful places in the world.
No doubt.
But they can't wait to come backto America.
No doubt.
UNKNOWN (38:49):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (38:50):
It's like we're throwing it away.
You know, it's like it.
Well, that's what humans do.
A lot of fear-mongering, too.
In our nature.
But you have politicalassassinations.
A president who wants to be anautocrat, I think.
(39:18):
Not sure.
I mean...
It says a lot of stuff.
I was very impressed when hesaid, they don't know what the
fuck they're doing.
Yeah, me too.
I've been waiting for apresident to actually say that.
I wouldn't talk about you.
He was the first one, so I gotto give him credit.
That's on Nick T, Dave.
(39:41):
Imagine trying to referee that.
Two sides that have beenfighting forever, and they just
don't know What the fuck theydo?
Like, oh my God, what do we dowith peace?
It's like the dog that caughtthe car.
I got the car, what do I do withit?
(40:02):
What do you do now?
Piss on the tire.
Yeah.
But I think people doing this,sitting and talking about
experience.
Sure, you know.
(40:24):
Just kind of like relating yourbeliefs and myself, my beliefs
and the things that have changedme.
I'm a much softer person now, Ibelieve.
Oh, you're definitely softer nowthan when I first met you.
(40:46):
Yeah.
That comes with not only age,but experience.
Perspective and removing themost negative thing in your life
that's preventing you frommoving forward.
How would you define movingforward?
(41:11):
Incremental.
I didn't have good creditovernight.
That's a big thing for mebecause I was such a lousy
creditor in the past.
So it feels good to be a memberof society.
You know, a sober member ofsociety.
(41:34):
One that's paying their shareand keeping up with their bills.
But, you know, the incrementalgrowth that credit cards give
you.
You know, you start out with onethat gives you 200 bucks or
something.
You keep paying on that, and thenext thing you know, you're
getting credit cards through themail.
(41:54):
And the next thing you know,here comes one with low interest
rate,$2,500 limit, no fee.
That shows you that you're doingthe right thing.
And then you have that fallback.
And just in case you need it,then like something breaks on
(42:15):
your car.
SPEAKER_01 (42:16):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (42:17):
you know i don't worry about that nowadays
generally something breaks onyour car you're probably looking
at least a thousand dollars orat least close to that and so
how many how many families thatare say 30 and younger can
actually afford that becausethere's not many people i know
(42:41):
that are 30 and younger thatactually have financial sense at
all I know my financialsuccesses, you know, my work
ethic and I've worked for areally good company and they
(43:03):
care about their employees, theyreally do.
And it shows because they'reranked in the top of the
company, that store is rankedlike number one.
I mean, for certain differentthings, you know.
And that would be giant people?
Yeah.
(43:24):
And what is it that they likeabout them, something that makes
them such a good company to workfor?
Their core values, you know,it's respect, caring about the
community, caring about theproduct that they present to the
(43:46):
community.
Leadership is really strong.
You know, and it's like afamily.
It really is.
I enjoy going to work.
It's not like a job.
It's more like I'm going to seean old friend because that's
what I'm a meat cutter.
So there's only so many of us inthe shop.
(44:08):
But you tend to get close withguys like that.
So it's more like family, youknow, to look out for each
other.
We take care of each other.
And that's what it's supposed tobe.
And that's know i feel fortunateyou know i worked for him before
and uh lost my job of course iwas drinking at the time but um
(44:32):
they hired me back only fiveyears later gave me another
chance yeah and i'm grateful forthat i'm glad it worked out for
you doubt that's that'sexcellent it's good to hear
because a lot of A lot of felonsthink that they can't get jobs,
(44:53):
and that is not necessarilytrue.
You know, I went to JTPA andwent to umpire school in
Florida.
That was a certified majorleague umpire.
Not that I could do it becauseof my physical health.
(45:17):
But you can do anything if youresearch it, but Anybody that's
struggling with addiction, allyou got to do is stop, man.
Just stop.
It's not going to happenovernight.
It took me a long time.
Yeah.
But you'll see progress.
It's called putting in the work.
(45:37):
And you hear that all the time,people.
Oh, that's just bullshit.
Live and not live, man.
You know?
Yeah.
I believe in the incremental.
Just measure your little stuff,man.
Celebrate a week.
Not by having a drink.
(45:59):
But you can still have funwithout alcohol.
I feel fortunate with my healththat I can still walk my dogs.
Which, you know, I'm I love mydogs.
Yes, you do.
What's your dog's names?
(46:19):
Jack.
Traveling Jack and Buddy.
Which are both Jack, Terry, andRussell.
Jack, Russell, Terry.
Yeah, they're pretty cool.
That's awesome.
Yeah.
So life's good, man.
It's good on this side.
It is.
Better than having a gatekeeper.
A butcher.
You liking it now?
(46:40):
Yeah.
Want money now?
Three.
Three, yeah.
How is the young man?
I'm not going to turn thisinterview around, but how is
your boy?
Good.
He was my first interview.
Was he, Rob?
He's 21.
He's 90% in the union now.
(47:02):
Sweet.
So he only has 500 more hours towork.
All his schoollings tell him hehas all his certifications.
Good for him.
Yeah.
And he's pretty excited abouthis clothing line because he
knows he doesn't want to be inconstruction forever.
He does.
So he's trying to.
Well, sure.
SPEAKER_01 (47:20):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (47:21):
But yeah, I've been pretty proud of him.
Doesn't really drink.
Doesn't smoke.
Goes to the gym.
Nice.
SPEAKER_01 (47:27):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (47:28):
I'm pretty happy for him.
He seems to be enjoying hislife.
Yeah, I got it.
nine grandchildren down inflorida good grief two daughters
i have yeah i've never met yourdaughters she hasn't been there
for probably 20 years yeahthey've been down south
(47:50):
somewhere different places yeahnine grandkids how's that though
having grandkids it's prettycool man you know i don't say
them so I'd like to live nearthem so they come over and hang
out with pops, you know.
Yeah.
Isn't that, you were, weren'tyou headed to South Carolina or
Florida?
(48:10):
I'll keep thinking about it,but, I mean, I'm getting me cut
and drop down there.
I travel well.
My skills travel everywhere.
And even on fire, I can get,yeah, big bucks down there, so.
Probably, yeah.
90, 100 bucks a game.
(48:32):
That's not too bad.
That's not too bad at all.
But the meat cutters probablymake more money.
Yeah.
25 plus probably.
Yeah.
Heck yeah.
That's awesome.
I mean, at least your shieldstravel well.
Yeah, buddy.
Yeah.
They won't just stay here.
Certified chef.
Oh, yeah, that's right.
(48:53):
Yeah, I forgot about that.
I didn't read, man.
There were a lot of schools backthen.
Yeah, where'd you get that one,then?
Pittsburgh.
Pittsburgh.
So why didn't you ever followthat one?
I found out I didn't likeworking in a professional
kitchen.
(49:14):
Very fast-paced.
Yeah, I worked at the PittsburghHilton for a while.
Did you?
Sous-champ.
Worked at the Stone Mansion andSewickley.
I kind of know where that's at.
S-E-W-I-C-K-L-E-Y.
North of Pittsburgh.
Okay.
(49:35):
Right.
So you're in Butler?
No, Butler's over aboutSewickley, straight up.
That's like, okay, straightnorth.
Where Butler's liveable.
East.
Northeast.
I never did the Sheets andMeadville, which is up by Lake
(49:58):
Erie, and I had to go throughButler, and I swear I saw signs
for sure.
I know.
I've seen those signs out there.
It might have.
It could be a super place.
It was back.
It was a nice place.
I won't forget that place.
It looked like a big, warm, notcastle, but one of them old...
(50:22):
The Ingle Mountains.
Yeah.
The big stones.
Mm-hmm.
Stone ranching.
SPEAKER_01 (50:27):
Wow.
SPEAKER_00 (50:28):
I love that little architecture stuff.
Yeah, I do.
Downtown Pittsburgh got somereally nice churches checked out
sometime.
Yeah.
Old y'all.
Someone got killed at one ofthose churches on a construction
site last week.
Pittsburgh?
(50:48):
Mm-hmm.
UNKNOWN (50:49):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (50:49):
It was really 1700 Detroit downtown.
We were like, wow, Fort Pet inthe jail.
Down by the old jail.
That baby's old.
Yeah, when did that start?
(51:10):
Like, 1700 or something likethat.
Yeah.
I think the Mulling Meguiarswere there.
Yeah.
I'm pretty sure.
And then they started in, was itCarbon County?
Somewhere, but I think theyended up in Pittsburgh, didn't
they?
Yeah.
That's quite a fascinating storyalso.
(51:30):
Yeah.
So it is.
Pennsylvania has such richhistory.
Don't you remember when you werejust sitting there having a
conversation?
Yeah, absolutely.
How about that?
When's the last time you thoughtof the Molly Maguires?
Uh, last time I went to Molly.
Yeah, I didn't really, uh, Iremember as a kid hearing about
(51:59):
them and that they had to dowith coal.
I never really, you know, butthen once I started reading,
wow.
What'd you read a lot of whileyou were locked up?
Novels, mostly.
(52:20):
Yeah.
Fiction.
Who's your favorite author?
Stephen King.
Me too.
You could stay in those booksfor hours.
Yeah, I was intrigued with theTalisman and then the follow-up,
Black House.
Mm-hmm.
(52:41):
And flipping into differentworlds.
Mm-hmm.
And the concept of that.
UNKNOWN (52:47):
Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_00 (52:48):
And his books were very interchangeable.
A lot of the characters willcome back in different ways.
Like the Gunslinger series.
Yeah, I love that series.
Dark Tally.
Yeah.
But no, I was intrigued by theflip.
That made me think of how theyspeak of reincarnation and
(53:12):
seeing another side.
I know when you get into likequantum physics and stuff that
we could exist on differentplanes.
I'm counting on it.
I'm hoping that there's likereally a point.
(53:36):
I feel like there has to be apoint to this existence, this
consciousness.
I just think that we keep onmoving.
I think...
It's interchangeable.
I believe that we've all livedpast lives.
I believe deja vu is just a spotin time where you would have it
(53:58):
the same space as the personbefore you was.
You understand what I'm saying?
Yeah.
When you go, wow, that feelslike I did that before.
Yeah.
Yeah, we're just like the glitchin the matrix.
UNKNOWN (54:15):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (54:16):
If you put it in today's terms, I guess, yeah.
Where you're almost likecrossing paths with.
Yeah, you actually bump into thesame spot in time.
And it happens.
I believe it does.
So, yeah, I think that all thesouls have gone before us.
(54:36):
You know, I've had, notout-of-body experiences, but
I've had some shit that I'veseen that's made me go, I think
I've been there before.
So I think if you just go backthrough time, and if everybody
(54:57):
just keeps flipping, becausewe're electric energy, and it
has to go somewhere, it justdoesn't go.
It cannot be created ordestroyed.
Right.
It has to go somewhere.
And I think it just goes to thenext circuit.
yeah on three times over andover and over you just don't end
(55:20):
their conscious memory of it butsometimes you do some people
recount that i find myself in alarge meadow it's beautiful
there should be distance andwhatever you know that's for
everybody yeah that'sinteresting because the guests i
(55:43):
had last night she's had maybeuh terry she's Tunals energy.
Tunals different things.
She does pass life regression,also.
Yeah.
I fully believe we both livethousands of lives before we
die.
Yeah, her idea is that you keepcoming back until you learn what
(56:09):
you need to learn.
I don't know that there's thatbig of a...
demand on it.
I believe it's just the naturalway things go.
I can definitely see that too.
You know what I'm saying?
That it's just continuous overand over and over.
(56:31):
The circle of life?
The circle of life.
You know, a lot of people youhear, they say death is just the
beginning.
I've heard that many times.
I'm just stepping into anotherroom.
That's what it said on UncleTone's double tap thing.
(56:54):
Just stepping into another room.
You'll see me again.
I just stepped into anotherroom.
Yeah.
I believe that.
And Uncle Tone said, if youcan't bury them with brilliance,
baffle them with bullshit.
I use that one all the time.
I need a cigarette, buddy.
(57:15):
Yeah.
Well, you know what?
We can wrap it up then.
All right.
I appreciate you coming anddoing this with me, brother.
No problem, bro.
I think it'll help people.
It might.
We'll see.
We're about to go on the side.
We're about to go on the side.
Yeah, yeah.
Don't do it anymore on the side.
And that's a wrap.
Yeah.
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