Producer Nick Moceri

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Act One Podcast - Episode 40 - Interview with Producer, Nick Moceri.

Nick Moceri is the founder of All Night Diner, a production company that works in film, television, podcasts, and digital media, and the co-founder of Nightlight Media, a joint venture with writer/director/producer Adam Anders. Nick is one of the producers of the recently released film, SITTING IN BARS WITH CAKE, for Amazon Studios, which is now streaming on Amazon Prime so check it out.

Nick's film producing credits include A GIRL WALKS HOME ALONE AT NIGHT (Sundance 2014), DEIDRA & LANEY ROB A TRAIN (Sundance 2017), THE KINDERGARTEN TEACHER (Sundance 2018), MADELINE'S MADELINE (Sundance 2018), STRANGE NEGOTIATIONS (SXSW 2019), and FRAMING JOHN DELOREAN (Tribeca 2019).

He was also a producer of the Bill Gates & Rashida Jones Ask Big Questions podcast. 

The Act One Podcast provides insight and inspiration on the business and craft of Hollywood from a Christian perspective.

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Episode Transcript

SPEAKER_02 (00:01):
I just love artists.
I love storytellers.
I love the people of thisbusiness.
I think that it's an industrywith so many dreamers and risk
takers.
And as a producer, I get theresponsibility and the joy of
helping to facilitate thecreation of art and beauty.
And so the you know earlyinterest in movies and movie
making has been replaced withkind of a higher calling toward

(00:25):
trying to create beauty.

James Duke (00:35):
You are listening to the Act One podcast.
I'm your host, James Duke.
Thanks for tuning in.
If you like what you hear,please subscribe to our podcast
and leave us a good review.
My guest today is producer NickMoteri.
Nick is the founder of All NightDiner, a production company that
works in film, television,podcasts, and digital media, and
he's the co-founder ofNightlight Media, a joint

(00:56):
venture with writer, director,producer Adam Anders.
Nick is one of the producers ofthe recently released film
Sitting in Bars with Cake forAmazon Studios, which is now
streaming on Amazon Prime, so besure to check it out.
He was also a producer of theBill Gates and Rashida Jones Ask
Big Questions podcast.
Nick's film producing creditsinclude A Girl Walks Home Alone

(01:20):
at Night, Deidra and Laney Rob atrain, The Kindergarten Teacher,
Madeline's Madeline, StrangeNegotiations, and Framing John
DeLorean.
Nick is a good friend and asmart producer.
I think you're going to enjoyour conversation.
Nick Maseri, welcome to the ActOne podcast.
It's great to have you, man.

(01:41):
Well, thank you.
It's uh pleasure to be here,Jimmy.
Nick is a good buddy of mine,and um, you've got a couple
things going on.
You you've you've been in thebusiness for a while.
I want to make sure we touchbases and all kinds of different
things, just give people achance to know you.
Um, but let's let's start withthe uh the thing that's that's
out right now.
People can go out and uh onAmazon and see uh your latest

(02:04):
film that you um produce.
Why don't you tell people aboutyour latest project?

SPEAKER_02 (02:09):
Yeah, so you can uh watch Sitting in Bars with Cake
on Amazon Prime.
It's been out uh since September8th, and it's a movie that's uh
sweet, sad, funny.
It's a female friendship story,two best friends, one uh unlucky

(02:29):
in love, the other sort ofvivacious, and uh one of them
gets a diagnosis that changesthe course of their lives and
their story, and it's based on atrue story.
And um, yeah, I think it's areally special film.
It stars uh Yara Shahidi andOdessa Azion and Ron Livingston
and Martha Kelly play theparents and a whole just really

(02:51):
cool ensemble of actors, uh BetMidler.
Uh, this is kind of a modern-daybeaches, so it was fun to have
her uh in the in the cast.
That's great.

James Duke (03:01):
And everyone probably wants to know okay, how
do you make a movie and get iton Amazon?
So let's start kind of at thebeginning.
Um, how did this project come toyou?
So uh for for sake of uhclarification, you you are an
independent producer, and um soyou're out there kind of looking

(03:22):
for projects, but people alsobring you projects.
How did how did this one comeabout?

SPEAKER_02 (03:27):
Yeah, so in 2016, I was making a film uh called
Deidre and Laney Rob a Train,which is a underappreciated film
on Netflix.
It was one of the first 12 quoteunquote independent films that
they made as a company.
People forget there was a timebefore uh Netflix made movies.
And my producing partner on thatfilm, who was one of the other
producers on Sitting in Barswith Cake, is a woman named

(03:49):
Susan Cartsonis, who is just anamazing veteran producer, uh had
produced What Women Want and uhBeastly and all kinds of cool
movies.
And we were on set and she wastelling me about this uh
cookbook that she had optionedcalled Sitting in Bars with
Cake.
And it was about this youngwoman who'd uh baked 50 cakes

(04:10):
and took them to a bar each weekin LA as a you know, hoping to
meet a guy.
And it was kind of like, oh,okay, I like food and you know,
there could be something there.
And you know, at that premise,you think like could be like a
romantic comedy, or is it like areality dating series or
whatever?
And you know, a year or twopasses, and uh Susan calls me

(04:33):
and is like, yeah, you know, I'mheaded out of town, the option's
almost up on that thing.
I don't know what to do with it,you don't know what to do with
it.
Why don't you take the writerout and you know, sort of one
last hurrah, see if there'ssomething there, and if not,
we'll we'll call it a day.
So I took the writer out, AudreySchulman, who uh wrote the
cookbook and it was based on herlife, and we're having coffee

(04:55):
and you know, same thing, youknow, baked the cakes, met the
guys, blah, blah, blah.
And you know, we get to the endof our coffee meeting, and I
say, uh, well, so we're like,was anything else going on in
your life at the time that thisall happened?
She said, Oh, yeah, well, my mybest friend and roommate,
Chrissy, uh, was diagnosed withbrain cancer, and I took care of

(05:15):
her until she passed.
And I could feel the tears startwelling in my eyes.
I was like, Well, that is themovie.

James Duke (05:22):
That's a yeah, that's a story.

SPEAKER_02 (05:25):
I called Susan, I'm like, I found the movie.
And she was on the phone with uhuh Suzanne, uh with Susan
Farwell and uh Suzanne Farwelland Brent Emery, who were the
other producers on the film withus, and and we all just got
really excited.
And Audrey had never written ascreenplay before.
Um, she was a writer's assistanton a show, and so we said, Hey,
would you want to spec this andum just see what it is?

(05:48):
And she wrote a beautiful scriptthat was this female friendship
story that was, you know, morememoir than autobiography, and
we loved it, and we took it uhpreemptively to Amazon Studios,
uh, and it was uh came inthrough uh Lucia Ledene, who was
a junior exec at the time, andto her boss Scott Fondis, and

(06:12):
then to his boss JulieRappaport, and and they uh
optioned the script from us, andthat was in 2018.
Uh, and then the pandemichappened.

James Duke (06:23):
And then and then nothing in the world happened uh
short shortly after that.

SPEAKER_02 (06:26):
Yeah, and then during the pandemic, you know,
nothing was happening on thatmovie, and uh Amazon wanted to
get going on development, and sowe uh found our amazing director
Trish C, who had done PitchPerfect 3 and uh some movies for
Netflix, and then we cast YaraShahidi, and then from that the

(06:48):
film was greenlit in early 2022,and then we spent about six,
seven months in sort of prepre-production casting the film
and getting it ready, and thenwe shot it in LA uh fall of
2022, and then came out a yearlater.
And uh, how many days shoot wasit?

James Duke (07:11):
I think it was a 35-day shoot.
Which is fast, yeah.
That's uh okay.
So uh I I want to go back tosomething that probably people
who are listening caught.
Uh this is based on a cookbook.
So can you can you explain alittle bit?

(07:32):
Because obviously everyone'ssearching for IP, you hear that
all the time, right?
Um your producing partner read acookbook and just was it the
title?
Like, I'm just curious.
Obviously, we're you you're theone that discovered the
backstory.
Um what was it about thecookbook that that made her

(07:53):
think maybe there's somethinghere that she would option it?

SPEAKER_02 (07:56):
Yeah, it's a great question.
And Susan got the cookbook fromuh another film exec named
Marybeth Sprouse, who works overat Sonya firm, and Audrey, the
writer, was Mary Beth'sassistant, and Mary Beth told
Susan, you gotta check outAudrey's cookbook, and didn't
tell her at all about the cancerof it all or any of that stuff.

(08:18):
And I think for Susan, her brandis built around uh female films,
you know, so uh femaleempowerment stories, their their
company, Resonate Entertainment,along with Suzanne Farwell and
Brent Emery.
That is their wheelhouse.
And so I think in this, she sawthe potential for a story about

(08:39):
a woman, a young woman who youknow takes the initiative to
bake these cakes.
And I think she just thought,like, but again, I think it was
really the title and thepremise.
So yeah, uh, cookbook, very,very unlikely.
I think that's great.

James Duke (08:53):
Uh, when you are producing with uh other
producing partners, um, can youexplain just for this film, for
instance, what was yourproducing role versus say some
of the other producers?
Did were were what did you seeyourself coming in and providing
X while some of the otherproducers were providing Y?

(09:17):
Or because you guys um maybe haddone, you know, a couple of you
had done stuff in the past, itwas we're all doing everything
together.

SPEAKER_02 (09:25):
Yeah, I mean, we so all four of us, and four is
quite a few, you know, it'squite quite a few hands-on
active producers.
That's not always the norm.
Um, but we all have a greatrelationship and and really
approach the film as we are allon equal footing, we are all
here to do the jobs, and youknow, we all got the producers'

(09:47):
guild mark, like everyone didthe work to really earn that
producer title, which wasawesome.
Um, and then as the you know, asthe production and
pre-production uh unfolded, wejust all sort of took to
different specialties, you know,someone was more in charge of
business affairs, and otherpeople got really involved in uh

(10:08):
the costuming and and hair andmakeup and and the the cake
journey and storytelling,because we have a lot of cakes
in this film.
And um, and then but you know,we were all on set every day
behind monitor, and um, youknow, there's there's always
gonna be different opinions.
You got that many people uhworking on a project together,

(10:30):
but we all were making the samemovie, and we're making the same
movie as the filmmaker and thesame movie as the actors, and so
in that way, it really was uh itwas a divide and conquer
partnership as opposed to havingto, you know, really relegate
roles and responsibilities.
I think it happened reallynaturally, which I think is

(10:52):
rare, and also uh testament touh my great producing partners
on this.

James Duke (10:58):
Yeah, and the film's getting a really good response.
I actually read an article umabout the the surge in people
bringing cakes to bars andstarting conversations and
building friendships.
Is that's gotta be fun to seestuff like that?

SPEAKER_02 (11:13):
It's super fun, and we got to shoot in real bars all
over Los Angeles, reallocations, and you know, not a
ton of movies, especially ofthis scale, get made in LA.
And for people from here, it'sfun to see the real bars, the
real beach, the real CapitolRecords building, you know, all

(11:34):
these things that become youknow part of the tapestry of the
film.

James Duke (11:38):
Yeah, that's great.
How did you get uh how did youget started in the business?
Did you um is this a passion youdiscovered later in life?
Did you did you want to get intofilm uh when you were much
younger?

SPEAKER_02 (11:50):
That's a great question.
I mean, you know, certainly thecliche is true that I loved
movies growing up and all thatkind of stuff, but yeah, I
didn't I didn't really know thatthat's what I wanted to do.
I I was I grew up in the PacificNorthwest outside Seattle.
I was really involved in themusic scene and kind of thought
that was going to be adirection.
Um I went to college.

(12:10):
Originally it was gonna be forcommunications, maybe toward
journalism.
And uh we were in, I think,freshman orientation before we
had to sort of declare our focusof study.
And um uh a young woman who was,I think a few years older was
having lunch with a few of usand going around and um asking,

(12:34):
like, what are you gonna studyor what do you want to major in?
And her name was Tinkerbell.
Uh, true story.

James Duke (12:40):
And wait, was this the Tinkerbell or just a
Tinkerbell?

SPEAKER_02 (12:45):
I don't know.
It was it was it, I mean, in inmy life, she became the
Tinkerbell because she I askedher, I said, What are you
studying?
She said, film, and she said,How about you?
And I said, Yeah, me too.
And literally, like that.
So I don't know if she was aguardian angel.
I don't know if that's great.
It's it's a semi-embarrassingstory, but it's actually true,

(13:08):
and I'll own it.
But then um I moved out to LAright after school.
I did not know how the businessworked and kind of flamed out in
about six months.
And I went back east and Icooked in restaurants and
painted houses, and then I wasback in LA for a minute, met my
wife, we got married, moved uhup to Seattle where I was from,

(13:29):
and and started over.
And so we were in Seattle, and Iwas, you know, in my early 20s,
starting a new career inmarketing and advertising, and I
was managing a couple indiebands and just not sure what I
was doing.
You know, I was still likewriting a screenplay a year and
just kind of floundering, andthen through a whole series of

(13:50):
events that would take muchlonger than we have in this
podcast to tell, um, decided touh make another uh attempt at
the entertainment industry.
And so um applied to gradschool, got into UCLA and and
the MFA Producers program.
Uh, we moved our uh young andemerging family down from

(14:12):
Seattle.
We had two kids at the time andhad a third what was in grad
school, and then, you know, at30 years old, came out of the
MFA program and uh started atthe bottom, started as a
writer's assistant and uhthrough a whole winding journey.
Kind of thought I was headed onedirection, went back into

(14:33):
marketing advertising for alittle bit, and then ended up uh
producing or as an executiveproducer on a film called A Girl
Walks Home Alone at Night, whichwas uh the first film from a
classmate of mine at UCLA, uhAnalily Amarpur, and it went to
Sundance the following year, andso it was kind of an auspicious
beginning uh to the producingthing.

(14:53):
But I think that going back, I Iwas always a producer.
I you know, I was a producer,like and and my sort of I don't
know, talent set or skill set asa producer is really uh I'm a
connector and I'm a problemsolver.
And and so I love building theteam, bringing them together, uh
putting out whatever fires comeup and just dealing with the

(15:15):
challenges um that arise.
And then also I I just loveartists, I love storytellers, I
love the people of thisbusiness.
I think that it's an industrywith so many dreamers and and
risk takers, and and as aproducer, it I get the
responsibility and the joy ofhelping to facilitate the

(15:35):
creation of art and beauty.
And so uh the you know, earlyinterest in movies and movie
making uh has been replaced withkind of a higher calling toward
trying to create beauty.

James Duke (15:52):
I love that.
That's beautiful.
No pun intended.
Unwrap that a little bit.
Uh, I think I'd be I think ouraudience would be curious to
know what is that what does thatlook like practically uh for you
replacing making movies withcreating beauty?
What is that what does that looklike?

SPEAKER_02 (16:09):
Well, first of all, I think it uh on one level it
frees me from the binary of likeI have to make movies or
television series or whatever,and you can uh expand that into
so many other areas.
I mean, right?
It could be could be anonprofit, could be a podcast,
could be visual art, it could beall kinds of things.

(16:30):
And I think that we in a worldand time when we get so focused
on content and there's just anendless stream of just stuff to
watch and consume oftenmindlessly, um the idea of
trying to create something thathas some lasting value and

(16:52):
meaning um is really what I'mtrying to get after.
So then how do I, you know, howdoes that look practically?
Certainly it means saying no toa lot more things.
So as I have opportunity to doprojects, I really put it
through the lens of like who arethe people involved, what's that
potential relationship to build?
What is a story?
What is the emotional truth ofthis story?

(17:16):
What purpose does it serve?
Is it medicine or is it poison?
Is it adding to the bank of uhcinema?
Is it a deposit or is it awithdrawal?
And so that becomes part of therubric that I and the lens that
I I start to see these thingsthrough.
Um and then it's also just youknow, practically it's like, am

(17:39):
I gonna show up each day and tryto bring that?
Like, am I gonna try to strivefor that or is it just a
paycheck?
And believe me, there are wayeasier ways in this world to
make money than independent.
We are the only people on uh youknow, a budget or a call sheet
who do not have healthinsurance, who do not have a

(18:00):
union, who you know, so it'swhat it is.
So um but yeah, I think that uhand I think you can do this at
any level.
Like I don't think this has tobe for a streamer, for a studio.
I mean, you can do thisindependently, you can also do
this on YouTube, you can do thison Instagram, and I think that
um uh when you or at least forme, when I think about it in

(18:23):
terms of this idea of creatingbeauty, that doesn't also mean
that I have to agree witheverything that is stated in
this, like, but I think theirconversations are worth having,
or I think that it's um artthat's worth making because even
art that uh represents aworldview or a point of view
that that you don't agree with,you can learn from it and you

(18:47):
can appreciate or at least buildempathy for like what is that
worldview, what is thatperspective, why does that
exist?
And uh I really care more aboutthe relationships that I get to
make along the way in making thefilms than I do necessarily the
stories themselves.
I mean, obviously that's stillimportant to me too, but yeah,
that's kind of how I look at it.

(19:09):
I love that.

James Duke (19:10):
There's a lot there's a lot of really good
wisdom in in what you just said.
I I I'm curious when you areconsidering projects and you're
kind of taking things throughthis this filter, which you know
you just described a kind ofmulti-layered filter there.
There's got to be days whennothing makes it through the

(19:32):
filter, and you've still got topay the bills, right?
So I know you and I have talkedin the past about um kind of
like the modern producer's toolbelt of just being able to do
different things.
Um kind of explain to ouraudience you kind of your
philosophy on that, being alittle bit of a little bit of a

(19:52):
renaissance man, a little bit ofa utility guy.
Um just your advice to, youknow.
People who are interested ingetting into the business, what
should they be aware of in termsof the skills as they're looking
to create art and beauty, butmaybe it's going to take some
time.
What should they be doing maybein the meantime?

SPEAKER_02 (20:15):
Yeah, and I think that's great.
And going back even just a bitin terms of there is you know,
not a lot of stuff makes itthrough the filter.
And I really do try to thinkabout like these things take so
long.
I mean, sitting in bars withcake was oh, I don't know, six,
seven years in the making.
And so you're gonna be workingwith these collaborators for so

(20:35):
long.
And so you have to work withpeople that you like and that
you respect and that you can getalong with.
And I've made the mistakes ofpartnering uh with people on
projects, projects that neversaw the light of day, that were
just bad fits.
And they were either bad fitsfrom a character level or just

(20:55):
from just a taste level, andthen also just a sometimes it's
a personality level, right?
There's nothing wrong with thepeople or the project, it's just
not a fit.
And so that's you know, anothersort of way that I look at these
things.
And then I think that especiallywith independent producing, but
I think also screenwriting oranything, um, you know, it's

(21:15):
really hard to make a consistentliving at this.
I mean, I've been in thisbusiness making films for the
last oh man, I mean 14 years orso.
And in that time, most of mymoney has been made in things
other than filmmaking.
And yeah, so because of mymarketing and advertising

(21:38):
background, I uh will consultand do media consulting.
So I consult uh with companieslike Nike and um did some
consultation for the uh AcademyMuseum that opened a couple
years ago.
And uh and really that's justabout keeping the lights on,
right?
And so I think having otherskill sets and things you can do
or other ways that you can makemoney uh to stabilize yourself

(22:02):
is hugely important because thiswhole business is a marathon,
it's not a sprint.
And and some people are gonnasprint ahead and um and that's
fine, but it's so up and down.
So, how do you sort of smoothout the waves?
And you know, so for writers,they'll often get the job, but
then that assisted job will takeup 50, 60, maybe 70 hours,

(22:24):
there's no time to write.
Whereas could they be better offbuilding a career skill set with
another job that pays the bills,keeps them employed and fed and
all this stuff, but leaves theirmental space free to write and
create and using that downtime.
And so I think, yeah, havingskills to weather the lean times
is is really important.

(22:45):
Um and also just being patientwith it, you know, to know that
it's you know, it may not happenquickly, but there's still a way
to make it happen.
And then on top of that, then Ithink it's so important to have
community around you that uh youcan celebrate each other's wins,
that you can mourn each other'slosses, um, because wins and

(23:08):
losses are coming for all of us.
You know, there are so manytimes when you think you're
riding high and riding thatwave, and then you know what,
that wave's gonna crash.
And it doesn't mean that you'rejust sitting around waiting for
the other shoe to drop, but likeit's just life, you know, you
don't know what's coming.

James Duke (23:25):
Yep.
That's it's oh man, you'respeaking speaking some wisdom
right now.
Uh uh uh and I do think thatthat uh you're touching on
something that is so importantis uh I don't know of anyone in
the independent producing spacethat isn't kind of one fisting

(23:45):
it because they because you haveto have your you know, in one
fist you've got uh you know theprojects that you're working on,
but another fist you're havingto, you know, have a um, like
you said, consulting work,marketing, you know, whatever.
Yeah.
And and I think that that'simportant to remember,
especially if you're going to beuh as you were describing it, uh

(24:09):
picky, you know, that you're notyou're not just trying to um and
and there's nothing wrong withpeople who just like, hey, I
just want to get out there andhustle and work every single
day.
That's great.
And they're just putting contentout there and they're just
shoving it out there, and goodfor you know, so be it.
Absolutely.
And that's that has its ownchallenges.
But um, but when you're tryingto find stuff that is is trying

(24:33):
to that's that's fits more ofyour taste and your interest and
your passions, it's naturallygonna um eliminate other kind of
projects.
And I often tell people all thetime, like I there's nothing
wrong with saying no toprojects, but there's also
nothing wrong with saying yes tolike one of the biggest problems
I think for uh young andupcoming producers is um they

(24:59):
only want to say yes if StevenSpielberg calls, like that
they're waiting on you knowWarner Brothers to call them,
right?
And it's like, no, your friendis producing a podcast, maybe
you should say yes to that.
Uh one just because they're yourfriend, not just any Yahoo, but
or you know, you have a buddywho you like and they're making
a short film and they need yourhelp.

(25:19):
Like, there's there's placesthat we need we need to develop
our skills, and we shouldutilize the relationships that
we have and the the contact thecontext that we're in.
So for you, I mean you went toUCLA, but um do you feel like um
you kind of learned from schoolof hard knocks, just um learning

(25:43):
through doing?
Do you like what where do youthink you began to kind of um
really start to get a grasp onon film specifically?
Uh was it was it in school or orwas it through when you've some
of your earlier projects?

SPEAKER_02 (25:57):
Well, I think it uh I think it goes back to I've
always been a naturally curiousperson and I'm always someone
who's willing to just like jumpin and learn as I go and figure
it out along the way.
And so UCLA was a great sort ofsafe space between sort of my
previous career and the one Iwas trying to to do, and it and
it gave me some credibility so Icould just pick up the phone and

(26:19):
call people and get meetings andmeet new people.
And so um, and uh certainly Ilearned things there, but you
know, until you put those thingsto practice, you don't know how
it all works.
Um and so yeah, I mean it isjust it is learn as you go, but
I think it really just requireslike always being a student, you
know.
I think as a producer, it's myjob to know a little bit about

(26:43):
everything that's happening inevery department.
And if you think that you're toogood for some role of
responsibility or you're justnot interested, like it's not
gonna go well for you.
And I think that that curiosityreally does help build and breed
empathy.
And if you are curious and anempathetic person, I think it

(27:07):
allows you to develop closerrelationships and so that when
the the problems and challengesarise, you can meet them.
And and that also means that yousay, you know, I'll be the first
one to raise my hand and say, Idon't know.
I don't know what that means, orI don't know how to do this
thing, but I'm committed tofiguring it out, you know, and
and that's something it's thesame commitment that I make my
kids as I do the the people onthe crew, which is uh, whatever

(27:31):
the problem is, I am committedto figuring it out with you.
Just don't hide it from me.
Like, just tell me, you know,like I may get upset, but I'd
rather have someone who is upsetand committed to sticking with
me to figuring out the solutionto a problem, than someone who
is just chill and uhuninterested in you know in who

(27:54):
I am and or someone who justdoesn't care enough to to want
to stick it out.

James Duke (28:00):
That's good.
I I I'm curious.
We often hear uh I'll you know,I'll ask interviewing different
people about this kind of stuffin terms of uh what do you you
know what do you think makes agood producer or or whatever.
But let me ask you this what dothey not know about producing

(28:21):
that you want them to know?
What what is it that they shouldbe considering that maybe up to
now they haven't when it comesto making um film?

SPEAKER_02 (28:33):
Yeah, uh, I think a few things.
I mean, one, I think thatnothing wants to be created,
like everything wants to not becreated, like everything in the
world wants to tell you no, likeyou have to force creation, like
creation is a violent act, andso you have to have that

(28:55):
perseverance and commitment anddetermination to just see it
through.

James Duke (28:59):
Yeah, I think a lot of people who who's that quote?
I can't remember films are notmade, they're born.
I can't oh I love that.
I don't know who that is.

SPEAKER_02 (29:07):
Yeah, so that's that's a big one, and then I
think the other thing is peopleshouldn't wait to create.
And I hate that that rhymes andit really upsets me.
Um that's the title of thispodcast episode.
Wait to create.

(29:28):
Don't wait to create.
Don't wait to and uh it's weespecially as producers, is like
we'll create almost theseinsurmountable obstacles, and
it's like, wait, is thereanother way to make this thing?
Like, how do I just get thisthing generated?
So do I need to narrow thescope, narrow the focus?

(29:49):
Also, like what do I have at mydisposal?
Like, I like to play the gamewith myself.
Like, if I had to make a filmwith my phone in my yard, what
would it be?
Right.
And you start to like giveyourself these narrow parameters
and challenges, kind of shrinkthe box, and and you can come up
with all kinds of creative ideasand they're makeable, you know.

(30:10):
I think uh one of my favoritebooks on filmmaking is the
Duplas Brothers book, likebrothers.
And regardless of whether you'rea fan of their films or
whatever, like their practicalapproach to filmmaking, like
make something that costs zerodollars in your dining room,
submit it to a film festival,then if it, you know, like just
kind of expand from there.

(30:31):
And then also the idea that theCalvary is not coming, like you
have to be the Calvary.
And so I think for producers,filmmakers, writers, we often
wait for permission to dothings, and you can't.
You cannot wait for permission.
You have to find ways to justkeep moving things forward, and
it doesn't mean you don't hitdead ends, and sometimes

(30:52):
projects fall apart and thingshappen, but uh you have to just
keep pushing.

James Duke (30:59):
Such good advice.
I yes, keep pushing forward,keep doing stuff, but Nick, I
keep failing, right?
Like I I I I I can't seem to tomake it work, I can't seem to
right like my stuff isn'tconnecting with people.
I um, you know, you you hearpeople who are struggling for

(31:21):
whatever reason.
And uh, you know, look, I knowyou're a man of faith.
Um you've obviously, you know,part of like you were talking
about this business, the highsand the lows.
One of the big things that Ithink doesn't get discussed
enough if you want to work inthis business is you have to
have very thick skin.

(31:42):
Yeah.
And you have to uh be able toweather the really bad storms,
uh deal with disappointment.
So for you, how have you dealtwith disappointment?
How have you dealt with youyou're obviously you're a family
guy, you have kids you have totake care of.
Um, have there been seasons inyour life where you've wanted to

(32:05):
pack things in, pack things upand what what how have you dealt
with disappointment?

SPEAKER_02 (32:10):
Well, I mean, yeah, I mean, absolutely, you know,
having uh spiritual foundationis is very helpful in terms of
you know having something thatyou can rely on in dark times.
But yeah, I mean, there's beenso many seasons of
disappointment.
I mean, uh in 2015, started twocompanies and immediately found
myself wrapped up in a lawsuitfor a year.

(32:33):
Like I thought that was it, youknow, and it got settled and
learned a lot in the process.
Um, but you know, that was amoment where I thought it was
over.
I was, you know, fresh out ofgrad school, writer's assistant
on a TV series, thought I was onthe first rung of the ladder of

(32:53):
becoming a writer, writer,producer.
And a year later, the show getscanceled late.
None of us could find jobs.
I had three kids.
The pilot I was developing withfancy producers didn't sell and
was out of work for six months,and I could see the end of the
bank account, and I had to gotake a job.
And so I had to dust off theresume and go get a job in

(33:14):
marketing and and uh got to workfor a very cool marketing
company down in Playa Del Rey,but that was an hour to
sometimes two-hour commute.
And I remember every day drivingto work saying, Thank you for
this job.
I do not want this job.
And it was just this, like, youknow, uh yes, I mean it was just

(33:36):
heavy.
And so having community aroundyou that you can weather those
storms is really helpful.
And then, you know, you saidthick skin.
I think part of it is yes, thickskin, but also just not taking
it personally, knowing that it'snot personal.
And you know, uh, I I would liketo believe that people are
trying the best they can.

(33:56):
I don't know if that's alwaystrue, but at least I try to
believe that about people, andand we don't know why things
don't happen, right?
You know, for an actor like theydon't know why on that day they
didn't get picked, you know,it's not a meritocracy, this
whole business.
And so you've got to findpurpose outside of the work, you

(34:18):
know, and whether that's a faithor uh uh, you know, a pursuit,
an enjoyment, a pastime, I don'tknow, you know, like I think you
gotta choose carefully whatyou're gonna give that imports
in your life to, but you know,whatever that is for people, uh,
you know, they gotta test thatout and and see what can hold

(34:40):
them up in the face of that kindof disappointment.
But yeah, I mean, I've had somany movies that I thought were
on the finish line that justnever came, right?
The money was there, the castwas there, and they go away, you
know, and with the best ofintentions.
I mean, I had a film that we hadset up at a studio in December

(35:02):
of 2019.
And come March of 2019 or of2020, the pandemic hits, uh, all
the execs get fired.
The film never sees the light ofday, you know.
And it was with a great directorand a great screenwriter, and we

(35:23):
had great executives, and andyou know, they're all people
that I still you know considerto be friends.
Um we all gave it our best,right?
And and yet things out of ourcontrol, uh and and then the
truth is nothing's in ourcontrol, right?
I mean, we can only do the bestwe can with that day and what we

(35:45):
have in front of us, and theneverything else you like.
I mean, regardless of people's,you know, personal uh beliefs or
spiritual beliefs or whatever,like if we work in the film
business, we all operate with aton of faith.
Like it is just it all of it isan exercise in faith because it

(36:05):
every movie is gonna throwsomething at you, every creative
endeavor is gonna throw somechallenge at you, and you've got
to find a way to just keepmoving forward.
I mean, on Sitting Bars withCake, we were in our last week
of production shooting at theRoosevelt Hotel.
Uh, we had originally scheduledthat shoot date in that location

(36:26):
at the beginning of the shoot,but then they had a scheduling
conflict, so it got pushed andpushed and pushed to our last
week.
And then we're out of time, likethere's no more time past that
week.
And the Monday we show up toshoot, uh, it's the opening
scene of the film.
It's a it's a poolside cocktailparty at night.
It is pouring down rain.
It's one of the few rainy daysin Los Angeles.

(36:48):
And we got there and it waslike, oh, all right, what do
what do we do?
Like, talk about disappointment.
And so we had we had some stuffto shoot in the interior that
morning, and we're like, well, Iguess we just set it up and see
what happens.
And sure enough, like we've wefinished the first scene, we

(37:08):
break for lunch, it's stillpouring.
You know, the grips are are likesetting up C stands and tarping
everything.
We break for lunch, uh, and atfive o'clock we come back.
Uh, and for people not in theindustry, lunch happens six
hours after you start shooting.
So sometimes you eat lunch atnoon, sometimes you eat lunch at
two in the morning.
It doesn't matter.
So on that day we had lunch atfour o'clock in the afternoon.

(37:31):
Uh, and at five o'clock, theskies parted.
We got a free wet down of allthe thing.
And so some days it falls yourway, and then other days, you
know, I I've been on movieswhere you get the call in the
middle of scouting and and theactor has an illness or the

(37:52):
actor can't do it.
And so yeah, yeah, I mean,disappointment is just is just a
fact of the business.
And so um, you've got to havegood coping skills, good
foundation, good community, um,and just expect that it's gonna
come, right?
Like, I mean, something's comingfor all of us, just in life,
whether it's illness or tragedy,and I mean, right, we look at

(38:16):
the events happening in theworld.
I mean, whenever you listen tothis, and I say the events
happening in the world, you'llfill in some blank, right?
And uh fortunately, yeah, right.
And that's just that's that youknow, it's easy enough to go,
well, it is what it is, and yetwe still have a choice and the

(38:37):
agency to show up and respond tothat.
And so are we gonna respond withhope and are we gonna respond
with love, or are we gonnarespond with despair and and
apathy, and the hard work isshowing up, and that and that's
what I endeavor to do.
And I don't always do it well.
And I mean, literally, was it uhyesterday?

(38:59):
I was sitting on my back porch,trying trying to put together
the next movie and just going,man, I am only getting what I
need for this day and nothingmore.
Like, this is hard, you know,and like because I can't I can't
control the elements and justsort of like sitting there in
the sun, going like, all right,this is this is the day, you

(39:23):
know, and sometimes you've sentall the emails you can send and
you've made all the phone callsyou can make and you've had all
the meetings you can do, andthen you just have to make like
Princess Elsa and let it go.

James Duke (39:38):
Yes, which I think is a superpower for some people.
I don't know how they're able todo it, but yeah, if you can,
whoo, baby, sometimes you justgotta let it go.
That's really good.
So you you've actually uh one ofthe things I think is really
neat about your career is you'veactually had like three or four
of your films premiere atSundance, which to me is that's

(40:00):
Pretty cool.
It's somewhat unusual.
Um what's the Sundance processlike for a filmmaker?
You your very first film gotinto Sundance.
Um, and uh what what's thatlike?
And and does it have the samefrom your perspective?
Does it carry the same um effectthat it that it once did?

SPEAKER_02 (40:22):
Yeah, I mean, I haven't been there in a minute,
so I you know, I still thinkit's one of the few really
important film festivals um inthe world.
So I still think it does have aneffect.
Um, and I think it's finding newlife post-pandemic.
Um, we had submitted a girlwalksomeone at night originally to
the Venice Film Festival with amuch longer cut.

(40:44):
I think it was like a I don'tknow if it was the two or two
and a half hour cut of the film,but we didn't get in.
And so we made some hardchoices, cut that thing down to
its final runtime, which I thinkis an hour 45 or so, and we got
into Sundance, and you find outtypically the week right before
the week after Thanksgiving, andthen you scramble to finish the

(41:09):
film and get your flights andget there.
And and so it was, I mean, it'sjust so special to be there in
the snow in Park City.
You're surrounded by people whoare there who love movies or who
are making movies.
Um, and so that was anincredible experience, and that
was in 2014.
And then, you know, a year, twoyears later, I don't have the

(41:29):
next film going.
I'm trying, right?
You're developing things, and Isaw how hard it was to get films
made.
And a buddy of mine had come upwith this idea of uh essentially
he he was a producer on Girl XHoney, and he saw how hard it
was for films who get into thosefilm festivals, whether it's

(41:52):
Sundance or South by Southwest,um, to finish those films in
time.
And so he had this idea of like,well, what if you could raise
some money as a finishing fundfor festival films?
That's a alliteration mouthfulright there.
So it was a film festival filmfinishing fund.
And uh, and you know, you'rede-risking it because the film's

(42:14):
already gotten to a festival.
You could sit alongside theother equity investors and and
not be a predatory lender, andand kind of everyone wins,
right?
You get a credit on a movie, youhelp the film, jump filmmaker.
And so in 2017, uh, I went outand started looking for that
money and and found uh a filmfinancier uh with a company

(42:37):
called Public House.
And so we started a filmfinishing fund.
And so in 2018, when or 2017, uhNovember, when the announcements
came out about Sundance 2018, wereached out to filmmakers and
just said, hey, we've got moneyand we're here to help.
And could we be of help?
And so we then came on uh filmcalled Madeline's Madeline from

(43:00):
Josephine Decker, who's anamazing filmmaker.
We came on um, or we weparticipated in uh the
kindergarten teacher, the MaggieGyllenhall film.
Um, and then from there, so thenwe're at Sundance and we got to
sort of enjoy the the Sundanceprocess and accolades and
credits, and then um, and thenwe helped a film uh called

(43:23):
Framing John Jalorian that wentto Tribeca and and so we just
did this a few times and it wasa way to uh gain credits, but
also help films, and um, andthey had already gotten into the
film festival, and so it was away to, you know, essentially uh
in an honorable way ride thosecoattails and and benefit from
it, you know.
And they were still films thatwe really believed in and were

(43:46):
of a quality mark.
So that was yeah, I mean, that'sthat's how we did it.
And then with Deidre and LaneyRobert Train, that one, um, our
filmmaker Sidney Freeland hadcome out of the Sundance Labs in
the Native American labs and hadhad her first film, Drunk Town's
Finest, at Sundance in 2014, thesame year that we were there
with Girl Walks on One at Night.
And so she had a relationshipwith the film festival.

(44:07):
We submitted the film to them,and then we premiered uh in 2017
with that film.

James Duke (44:12):
That is really interesting.
The that film funds is a wholeother kind of rabbit hole we
could rabbit trail we could gogo down.
But um, the satisfaction ofseeing something, you know, from
completion from beginning toend.
That's that's one thing.
But being able to come in andhelp a filmmaker um kind of
finish things up, that that thatfeels you know different.

(44:34):
That's a different type of uhmaybe itch that you're
scratching.
Um, what was that like uh as aas a as a storyteller, as a
filmmaker?

SPEAKER_02 (44:43):
Yeah, I mean, I loved it because you're helping
someone in that last mile,right?
When they're out of gas or outof money or you know, on fumes,
and and you get to be this kindof jolt of energy that helps
them to accomplish their goal.
And so in that way, it's it'ssuper satisfying.
And then from that, you thatbecomes the start of the

(45:04):
relationship, even though you'recoming in at the end of the
film, it's a new beginning for anew relationship.
Um that I, you know, I've seenpaid dividends uh already just
in my career, and and it and itcontinues the narrative of kind
of who I am as a producer, whichis I am someone who I think
operates with integrity and hasstrong character and really is a

(45:27):
positive force.
Like I'm there to help, andthat's how people see me.
And I'm also not afraid of achallenge.
So for better and for worse, Iget sent very challenging and
difficult projects.
And uh, and it's also because Ihave sometimes unique taste.
Um, but to me, those are the funones, like those are the ones

(45:48):
like you know, uh working hardto make something great that
people love, like that's worthit, you know.
And and uh I think we're in a welive in a time where there's so
many different niche audiences,and so giving some creating
something that a specific groupof people just really, really

(46:08):
loves, I think is a wonderfulgift.
I mean, this summer we saw thisfilm uh Theater camp, which is
this really fun mockumentary,and my wife and I went, you
know, probably two weeks afterit was out on a Tuesday night.
We're like, hey, let's go seethis movie, and we went to this
movie theater, it was sold out.
I mean, we we got tickets, butlike it was a sold-out
screening, and it was all ofthese like theater camp and

(46:31):
theater enthusiasts who werejust like so excited to feel
seen and laugh at themselves andthe jokes and that, and like
seeing that, I was like, Oh,like there are so many audiences
and and so many specificaudiences, and I think that the
more specific that filmmakerscan make their film for an
audience, the better it is.

(46:52):
I think when you try to makesomething for everyone, you make
something for no one.
Um, and there's exceptions,right?
I mean, you know, films like uhBarbie or Oppenheimer connected
on a huge level this year.
Um, but even those films aremade with a lot of specificity,
like that the the those weren'tjust crowd pleasers, so to

(47:14):
speak.
Like there's a lot of artisticintent in them.
And and especially in a filmlike Barbie, it's harder to see
because of the the glossiness tothe whole thing.

James Duke (47:25):
But um But there's a div there's a defined POV in
both of those films.
Like Barbie, Barbie is clearlycoming from not just any
filmmaker.
I think what you're I think Ithink what I'm taking for what
you're saying is it's thatparticular filmmaker's POV.
Now, that particular filmmaker'sPOV could be someone like uh
Christopher Nolan, yeah, who islike the modern day Spielberg,

(47:48):
even though Spielberg's stillaround.
I'm not disrespecting Spielberg.
Uh but he is he is a you know,Nolan makes, you know, he's a
popular, right?
He makes populist films, right?
For for for just like Spielbergkind of just made films, these
big kind of big films thateveryone wants to go see.
And Greta Gerwig has now enteredinto that realm.

(48:10):
Amazing.
Yeah.
But you're right.
I mean, uh, I love I love thatadvice about being specific
because it's really about itreally is about that POV.
I I I think it was I've I'vemaybe said this before on the
podcast, but I think it wasSteve McQueen or someone who's
the the filmmaker Steve McQueenwho said um film film is film

(48:34):
are empathy machines.
And the idea of of solicitingand invoking empathy between the
audience and the subject matter,um, that is something that we
all strive when we sit in frontof when we go to the movie
theater to watch something.
We're looking to go into aworld, enter into a world, but

(48:55):
that world is from a veryparticular point of view.
And you may agree with it or notagree with it, but the one thing
you have to in order for it tobe a good film is we have to
feel something.
Yep.
Right?
We have to feel something.
And uh, and I think that uh allall great filmmakers know that,
and they're willing to go therewith their audience.

(49:16):
And I think that's that's a it'sa simple truth, but a profound
truth for aspiring filmmakers.
Tell us, don't just tell us astory, tell us the story from
your perspective, tell us thatstory from your opinion, right?

SPEAKER_02 (49:30):
Yeah, I mean, one of the best examples I've seen of
it recently was the FX seriesReservation Dogs.
That show is unbelievable.
So my wife and I watched thefirst season.
Um, you know, Sterling Harjo's acreator, along with uh Taekwite
TD, exec producing, and thatfirst season was just cool.
It just felt like jazz, justlike here's someone doing

(49:52):
something cool, really specificto this native culture in
Oklahoma.
And it was fun just to kind oflike watch and walk in that
world.
And then we kind of slept onseason two.
It was it came out when I wasmaking sitting in bars with
cake, and then they just wrappedup their third and final season.
So we went back and watchedseason two and three, and like

(50:14):
that show is so specific and soinside baseball into native
culture, and yet, like, just thethemes of community and love and
friendship and relationship,like by the end, like we were
crying, and then I was also Ididn't want to watch the last
episode because I didn't, Ididn't want to say goodbye to
these characters.
It's like, oh my gosh, like Ilove this community, I love

(50:38):
these people, and I'm not NativeAmerican and I uh don't have a
lot of experience with thatculture and that that people
group.
And even though there was allsorts of stuff that was very uh
foreign to me as a viewer, uhthe love and care that that the
the creators of that show hadfor the character, for the

(50:59):
authenticity, for thespecificity is what drew us in.
And I think that so you know,watching something like that is
is just so rewarding andcompelling.
And and like, you know, like yousaid, it's that empathy machine.

James Duke (51:13):
Yes.
I feel that way.
My wife and I just finished thebear, the bear, season two of
the bear.
Absolutely.
And I so good.
The first first season therewere a couple episodes when I
thought Richie was kind offunny, but after a while, Richie
started to get on my nerves.
Sure.
But but by the end of seasonseason two, it's like I would
die on a hill for Richie.

(51:33):
I just it's like, you know, youjust come to love these
characters.
Uh uh, yeah, it's just uh uhthat's that's that's the sign I
think of really good, reallygood filmmaking, really good
writing.

SPEAKER_02 (51:46):
Um and I think it speaks to the moment we're in,
which is we're we we celebrate,and and look, I think those are
hard shows and films and thingsto get made, but like that
specificity, that point of viewis so important.
So for filmmakers, forproducers, for writers, whatever
it is, like bring yourself, likethat is what people want.
And also go live life andexperience things that that give

(52:10):
you that strong of a point ofview.
Like, you know, so whatever yourinterest in, whatever your weird
wiring and ingredients are inyour makeup, like bring that,
you know, like that's whatpeople want.
And you know, back to an earlierpoint you made in terms of like,
you know, some people find thatthey're failing over and over,
things aren't clicking.
Well, like then make it for you,or find people whose feedback

(52:35):
you trust and and figure outreally like what is going on,
like what am what am I missing?
Like, what's not connecting?
And we do that even on films.
I mean, that's why we screenfilms for audiences and and get
feedback.
Like, there just are times whenyou're too in the weeds of your
own creativity to know what isand isn't working.
And so having you know,thoughtful, trusted,

(52:56):
constructive voices around youwho will give you honest
feedback about your artisticwork, but sometimes also just
about yourself.
Like, yeah, dude, you're a jerk,or you are no fun to work with,
or you've got to, you know, stopbeing so serious.
And and it's always hard for usto have objectivity about
ourselves, but I think havingthose voices uh around us is so

(53:19):
important.

James Duke (53:20):
Amen.
I I couldn't agree more.
In fact, I often say, um,especially to our Act One alums
and students, I say, you knowwhat, surround yourself with
people who are better than you.
Like you're just you're notgoing to get better if you're
constantly around people who areat your level or below.

(53:40):
Um, surround yourself withpeople, be the least talented
person in the room.
And it forces you.
Like I remember when I was akid, that's how I learned how to
play basketball was I always hadto play with the older kids.
And everyone was bigger andtaller and stronger than me.
And I and if I wanted tocompete, I had to, I had to get

(54:05):
better.
Like I had to learn how to, whensomebody who was bigger than me
bumped me off the blocks, I hadto be learn how to stand my
ground.
It took time, but eventually, Iwas a bean pole back then.
I've changed a lot, but um, butuh and that and I feel like it's
the same way as filmmakers, asstorytellers, like is get in

(54:26):
there and compete in the withthe in the in the realm of ideas
and the realm of story withpeople who are just really,
really good at it, and it willit will make you better over
time.

SPEAKER_02 (54:39):
For sure.
And you know, don't pretend youknow everything, like you don't
have to, it's okay, you know.
So I'm I was so lucky on Deidreand Laney, Robert Train to get
to work with Susan Cartonas.
I mean, she was a studioexecutive and had been in a
producer, studio films,independent films, and I just
got to learn so much from justwatching her work, listening to

(54:59):
her on a phone call, watchingher handle herself.
And in that way, you know, I itit just taught me a ton.
But then also part of that, youknow, relationship was I will do
uncomfortable grunt work things,I will take the the you know
unsexy parts of particularity ifyou will share your wisdom for

(55:21):
me.
And so I think you know, makingwhatever those relationships are
mutually beneficial is alsoreally important too.
And uh I think you know peoplecan forget that.

James Duke (55:31):
You talked a little bit about well, actually, we
didn't talk.
I wanna wanna I want to touchbasis on um sitting in bars with
cake.
Um, you know, it's on Amazon,and then of course, uh some of
your other films.
Um, you have some on Netflix.
I I'd love for you to talk aboutjust the current world we're

(55:53):
living in right now withdistribution, um, the challenges
of making something and gettingit out there to the audience
because uh it's like we're gonnarecord this podcast and 50
things are gonna change by thetime it comes out.
Absolutely.
It's just it's just constantlyevolving and changing.
Um, so one, how did you gotbecause you said you went with

(56:14):
Amazon Studios.
That's I'm assuming that's whyit ended up ended up on their
platform.
But what a lot of people don'tunderstand is there's a there's
a challenge to the streamers.
And I wonder if you can kind oftalk a little bit about this,
and that when a film gets putinto theaters, uh, you know,
prior to streamers.
So prior to streamers, the goalwas to get movies into into
theaters.
And if you got into theaters,then you would then you could

(56:36):
then exploit the film laterthrough a uh uh and so ancillary
markets, whether it's foreign orDVD sales, whatever, eventually
television, all that kind ofstuff.
Um, and with that came theopportunity to maybe make money
in all those differentcategories, uh, maybe some more
lucrative than others.
With streamers, it's a littlebit different.

(56:59):
What's the pros and cons, inyour opinion, and just just
living the real world, the filmsthat you have put out there, of
uh getting your film out in themarketplace uh with streamers
via streamers versus via themore traditional route or maybe
some other way, um, just interms of the economics of it,
how it works and how it doesn'twork?

SPEAKER_02 (57:20):
Sure, yeah.
I mean, I think with the the proto the streamers like a Netflix
or Amazon is it's a one-stopshop.
So you know from the beginningthat you have distribution, you
know that the checks are gonnaclear.
It's you know, one you know, onestudio, one buyer, uh it yeah,

(57:42):
it's just super simple in thatway.
And they all do they also havetheir own internal
infrastructure for marketing andall those kind of things.
Economically, you give uppotential upside.
Um you know, there is no backend, there's no sort of reward
in success.
Um they'll sometimes do uhessentially a a buyout, um,

(58:04):
which gives you a little bitmore than what you would have
made normally.
And you know, so to use a sportsanalogy, uh, you know, unless
you're a really, really top bigproducer for those streamers,
you know, it's a single or adouble, right?
You get to you made your thing,you probably get to make another
one if it's well made.

(58:25):
Um and there you go, you know,and and like and they those
platforms have giant audiences,and so there is a potential
picture many more people thanyou might be able to
theatrically.
However, uh sometimes it's sortof like if a tree falls in the
woods, doesn't make a sound, youknow.

(58:45):
These things come out, there'sso much stuff that comes out
that it's really easy to missthem.
And you know, especially in amoment where we have uh labor
strikes in Hollywood, likethere's no actors to promote
these things.
And so how do you get eyeballson things?
It's it's very challenging.
I think that with the theatricalmodel, um, you have to really be

(59:07):
thoughtful about uh how muchyou're spending on the film
because you're gonna maybe spenddouble that in marketing.
And then is there an audiencethat'll support that?
And do they come to theaters?
And so more risk, more reward.
You know, if you make uh Barbiethat makes$1.5 billion, well,
that was worth every it went onit and you know, tenfold.

(59:30):
But then you make a movie likeThe Creator, which has a ton of
artistic merit, it just didn'tfind its audience, and you know,
that's gonna be uh a write downin probably the the tens of
millions.
I mean, maybe it finds anotherlife on streaming or whatever,
but um that's tricky.
And then independent film, youknow, I'm my next film, like we

(59:51):
are building it old schoolindependent, where it's you
know, you we're sellingterritories one by one.
Here's the domestic sale.
Here's Greece.
Here's you know, the Middle Eastand Spain.
And and then you're finding asenior lender to lend against
those pre-sales.
And then you've got to find yourequity investors.
And then you've got to, youknow, build your cast.

(01:00:13):
And, you know, it's it's a muchmore modestly budgeted film.
And yeah, you might get luckyand that film is a little
sunshine or something that justyou know explodes and goes crazy
and and you know makes everyonea ton of money.
But more likely it's about youknow starting a filmmaker's

(01:00:33):
career and and making somethingthat you then get to make the
next thing with, or developingrelationships with these actors.
So it's it's very, verydifficult.
I think that um we're seeing newdistribution platforms, we're
seeing new uh ways of makingfilms.
I think some of the stuff thatuh Angel Studios is doing with
crowdfunding is uh interesting.

(01:00:55):
We'll see if it's sustainableand and what it does.
So I think I I'm alwaysinterested in people who are
innovating.
Um but yeah, it's it's it's it'sall tricky and it's not easy.
And as a producer, you know, wedon't get paid until the film
goes into production.
So that's you know, I I tellpeople I have nothing but free

(01:01:18):
time, meaning all my time is forfree because I ain't getting
paid.

James Duke (01:01:24):
Um literally, literally free time free time.
That's funny.
Now, like, and and just to helppeople understand, uh obviously
you don't have to give specificnumbers, but um for it's like uh
streamers will do to help peopleunderstand, right?
They'll do like cost plus right.
So they'll do cost plus 30.

(01:01:47):
So say for instance your filmcost a million dollars, a
streamer would would thenpurchase that film um in
perpetuity uh for 1.3 milliondollars, which means all the
cost.
So if the cost of your film wasa million dollars, uh you now
get$300,000 that gets splitamong whoever gets right.

SPEAKER_02 (01:02:10):
Investors, producers, the talent, yeah.

James Duke (01:02:12):
So this is why the numbers aren't as big as some
people assume, um, especially inthe indie world.
Uh, and and and then you can'tyou then can't take the film and
exploit it with DVD sales orBlu-ray sales um uh to make kind
of extra money.
And so that's why you want toget that really good deal and

(01:02:34):
why you have to weigh, right?
That go in the streamers routebecause you get, you know,
whatever it is, 120 millioneyeballs.
People who would never even havea chance maybe to see your film
now get a chance to watch yourfilm, but it might be at the
cost of maybe, just maybe, likeyou said, kind of throwing that
dice and maybe makingpotentially making more if you

(01:02:56):
want another route.
That's right.
That's such a that's just abigger gamble.

SPEAKER_02 (01:03:01):
Yeah, it's a bigger gamble, and sometimes you don't
have the choice except to takethe thing that's right in front
of you, like you know, like I'vemade plenty of not great deals
in to just get things made.
And you hopefully, as you youknow, as your career develops
and you progress, you can makeincreasingly less worse deals.

James Duke (01:03:25):
And and a lot and a lot of investors might at this
point prefer streamers becauseeverybody can see what they
helped make, as opposed to maybeif it if it came out on in a
theater in Sheboygan, they noteverybody gets to see it or
something, right?

SPEAKER_02 (01:03:43):
Yeah, for sure.
And I mean my job as a produceris you know not only deliver the
film at the highest qualitylevel I can, it's also to get my
investors their money back, youknow.
So you've got to be pragmatic.

James Duke (01:03:54):
It's a business, yeah.
You know, it's the movie, it'sthe business part of the movie
business.
I wanted to ask you about thiskind of little fun project that
you did.
A lot of people don't know.
You were talking about how, youknow, you've got to, you know,
if if if in between projectsyou're waiting on something and
you know, you gotta pay thebills, you gotta get something
done.
And I remember you and I weretalking, it was I think during

(01:04:17):
the pandemic, and a littleproject came your way, and a lot
of people might not be awarethat you were a part of it, but
there was a brief period of timewhen I I'm pretty sure you were
the producer, I think it was thebiggest podcast in the world for
at least a brief period of time.
Uh, you want to talk about thatexperience?
You you you did a podcast withBill Gates and Rashida Jones?

SPEAKER_02 (01:04:38):
I I did, yeah.
So um, you know, my backgroundin marketing and advertising in
Seattle uh did a lot of workwith um Microsoft, and um one of
my uh sort of bosses and mentorswas this guy, Ian Saunders, up
in Seattle, and uh he had soldhis agency after we had moved to

(01:05:00):
LA, and he has been working forum Gates Ventures, which is
Bill's uh creative contentcompany, um, separate from the
Bill and Melinda GatesFoundation uh for about the last
decade.
And we'd stayed in touch anddone a few little projects here
and there, some editorial stuff.

(01:05:20):
And uh in I think July of 2020,I get a call out of the blue and
essentially said, Yeah, uh Billwants to do a podcast, do you
want to produce it?
And I said, uh, yes, except if Iwere you, I would not be my
first phone call because I'venot produced a podcast, and
essentially said, Well, youknow, we trust you, we know that

(01:05:41):
you'll figure it out and andwe'll figure it out together.
And so um, we brought in anamazing experienced podcast team
um as the team behind thepodcast criminal, and uh and
then we brought in Rashida Jonesas a co-host, and so we did six
episodes of Bill Gates andRashida Jones Ask Big Questions,
which yes, for a time was thenumber one podcast on Apple.

(01:06:04):
And um, you know, there therewere a number of other great
producers on that podcast,including uh David Sanger and
some of the other team fromGates Ventures.
Um and so you know, I was onepart of that team that got to
produce this thing, and itreally was just about you know,
how do we facilitate vitalconversations at a time when

(01:06:28):
people were really strugglingfor interesting and and quality
information?
And and Bill is really anoptimist about the world and um
complicated guy for sure, but hereally does endeavor to want to
do uh good things and see changeand and help people.
And so we had um Dr.
Fauci on when we were in themiddle of the pandemic, and and

(01:06:50):
that's what I was gonna ask you.

James Duke (01:06:51):
Was it in the middle of uh like so?
Were you guys were you guys inthe room together at all, or
were you remote?

SPEAKER_02 (01:06:59):
So it was all yeah, it was all done via Zoom and it
and we recorded it betweenAugust and uh October, November
of 2020, and it came out inNovember of 2020.

James Duke (01:07:09):
So, what kind of challenges did you have to face
working remotely?
I mean, obviously a podcast isnot a film, but but um that must
have that m that must have hadsome unique challenges.
Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (01:07:20):
Well, first of all, everyone's all over the world,
and how do you get uhmicrophones and headsets and
things?
So in our we had an amazingsound engineer and mixing team,
and so they found this veryspecific set of gaming
headphones.
Uh, in fact, one set that I'm uhutilizing right now for this
podcast.
And so we had to, you know, Iwas responsible for shipping it

(01:07:42):
to uh you know Yuval Harari inIsrael and a little shtdel
outside of Jerusalem, and toBono in, I think he was in the
UK or Dublin at the time, andthen uh to uh you know, Kerry
Washington, and I'm trying tothink who else we had, you know,

(01:08:03):
all kinds of people that we hadon this podcast.
It's season Dr.

James Duke (01:08:06):
Fauci and uh and that was because and that was
because it's a mic, I'm looking,they can't see you, right?
It's just audio.
So it's uh it's a headset withthe microphones.
The idea is everything had to beconsistent, we can't control, so
let's let's literally ship themicrophone in the headset.
That's fascinating.

SPEAKER_02 (01:08:25):
Yeah, that they could put in the computer, and
we recorded everything overZoom, and uh yeah.
So I I think Rashida was in astudio in Hollywood, Bill was at
his office up in WashingtonState, and then our guest
elsewhere, and we would do a Idon't know, two-ish hour

(01:08:46):
conversation that we'd cut downto about an hour, and then this
last year they did a new podcastum called Unconfuse Me with Bill
Gates, and so I got to play asmaller role helping out with uh
with that podcast as well, andthey had great guests.
There's an amazing quest loveepisode and Seth Rogan and his
wife Lauren.
Um so yeah, I mean superinteresting conversations, and

(01:09:10):
uh again, just a new skill setthat I got to learn as a
producer, and um it was superrewarding and also you know
really sparked an interest inaudio as a medium and and why
it's important and and you knowthat I mean there's podcasters
like Phoebe and Lauren who dothe criminal podcasts, like

(01:09:30):
there is just as much artistrythat goes into those podcasts as
there is any feature film or TVseries or anything.
And and so to get to work withuh that level of of artist and
craft person was just such aprivilege.

James Duke (01:09:47):
Yeah, there's some there's some really impressive
things happening right now.
It's it's it's uh you know,everything is cyclical, and uh
it feels like these podcasts areit's back to it's back to the
radio from the 1920s and 30s,and yeah, it's just it's just
fascinating.
Uh I I want to make sure beforewe leave, I want to give people
heads up.
I don't know when they'll listento this podcast, but you've got

(01:10:08):
another film coming out, andthis one's gonna be in theaters
in November.
And uh this is a reallyinteresting project.
Can you tell uh tell people alittle bit about uh a journey to
Bethlehem?

SPEAKER_02 (01:10:20):
Yeah, so I'm an executive producer on Journey to
Bethlehem, which is a stylizeduh nativity musical from writer,
director, songwriter, and somuch more, Adam Anders.
Um, Adam had produced all of themusic for Glee and worked on
Rock of Ages and all kinds ofbig musicals.

(01:10:41):
And this was a passion projectof his 15 years in the making.
He and his wife uh co-wrote allof the songs.
We've got um Milo Mannheim starsas Joseph, Fiona Paloma as Mary,
Antonio Banderas plays KingHerod, uh Lecrae plays the Angel
Gabriel.

(01:11:01):
I mean, it's it's it's reallyit's a it's a wonderful, really
fun family film.
It's a musical.
Um and yeah, it's exciting to bea part of because it's you know,
it's an intimity story, soobviously there are faith
elements, but um I think we'veavoided some of the pitfalls
that um some of those types offilms struggle with.

(01:11:23):
You know, it's we hope that it'sa film that people, regardless
of their faith traditions, canenjoy because it's a really it's
a sweet love story.
There's no heavy-handed preachymessage.
Um it's I yeah, it's prettyexciting.
So it comes out November 10th intheaters from uh Sonya firm
films, uh, Monarch Media was theother uh production company on

(01:11:46):
that film.
And so yeah, Adam and I are nowpartnering in a new joint
venture called Nightlight thatwe're looking to get after um
family and then also films thatyou know are either you know
sort of faith adjacent or ordiscuss conversations of faith
in hopefully a really highquality and universally

(01:12:10):
appealing way.

James Duke (01:12:12):
And and did you get a how did you get connected to
the film?
Was it through you you werefriends with Adam before?
And like how did you how did youcome on board?

SPEAKER_02 (01:12:21):
Yeah, so Adam and I had been talking about starting
a company for a few years andwere you know starting to put
things together during thepandemic.
I also have my company All NightDiner.
Um and uh he was getting thismovie off the ground and felt
like I could be an additional uhasset on the the larger

(01:12:42):
producing team and invited me toparticipate.
And so they were making thatfilm in Spain while we were in
post on Sitting Bars with Cake.
And so um just helped weigh inon casting and cuts.
And um, you know, they had anumber of other great producers
on the film, but um, I'm I'mexcited for people to get to see
it.
The first single uh is out rightnow in streaming platforms um

(01:13:07):
called Can We Make This Work.
And I think once people start tohear the music, it's gonna get
them excited just because umyeah, I mean, just it's just
such such great music.

James Duke (01:13:19):
Excellent.
Well, um, I'm looking forward toit, and I know my kids are
looking forward to it as well.
I've I showed them the trailer,I think it was last month or
whatever it is that came out,and they were my kids were like,
Wait, is that is that Puss inBoots?
I was like, Yeah, that's Puss inBoots.
Yeah, that's that's uh that'sLecrae.
They got and and is that the guyfrom for King and Country?

(01:13:40):
They got all excited.
Yeah, exactly.
It's it's it's fun.
Yeah, well, hey, listen, thishas been um just a fantastic
conversation.
I um I so love you andappreciate you.
I just um everything you've gotgoing on.
I I just um uh you're just a manof integrity and honor, and I'm
just grateful for yourfriendship.

(01:14:00):
And um sitting in bars with cakeis out right now.
People need to watch it.
And it's just a it's just a umit's a great film uh to just sit
and relax in front of the TV atAmazon and uh turn on your
Amazon Prime and um and justwatch this kind of beautiful

(01:14:21):
story unfold of these twofriends and uh what they go
through and and uh and everyonebe on the lookout for Journey to
Bethlehem when it comes out inNovember.

SPEAKER_02 (01:14:30):
Thanks, Jimmy.
It's such a privilege and uh andthanks for creating just a
platform for this type ofconversation.
It's a it's a service to somany.

James Duke (01:14:37):
Nick, um, I always like to uh pray for my guests
before we leave.
Would you allow me to do that?
Please.
Heavenly Father, thank you foruh just this time uh today.
Thank you for Nick.
Thank you for everything you'vegot going on in his life.
Uh, we just uh we just prayright now a blessing, um, a

(01:14:59):
blessing on him and his family,God.
I pray that you would um umwatch over his family.
I pray that you would protect uhhim and his wife and his kids.
Pray you would um strengthentheir relationships and um fill
them full of courage.
And um, God, I just uh we prayfor the projects he's got going
on.
God, we pray that um uh youwould just uh these projects

(01:15:24):
would find the audiences thatyou uh that that need them.
And and God, I specific wespecifically pray for uh, as
Nick described, that he'd beable to create beauty, that he'd
be get to be a part of projectsthat that um that uh create
beauty in the world and putbeauty out there in the world.
And and God, we just pray thatthat um uh he would sense your

(01:15:47):
presence in uh in all thoseopportunities.
And uh we love you, God.
We pray this in Jesus' name andyour promises we stand.
Amen.
Thank you for listening to theAct One podcast, celebrating
over 20 years as the premiertraining program for Christians
in Hollywood.
Act One is a Christian communityof entertainment industry
professionals who train andequip storytellers to create

(01:16:09):
works of truth, goodness, andbeauty.
The Act One program is adivision of Master Media
International.
To financially support themission of Act One or to learn
more about our programs, visitus online at Act OneProgram.com.
And to learn more about the workof Master Media, go to
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