Screenwriter Karen Hall

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Act One Podcast - Episode 39 - Interview with Screenwriter, Karen Hall.

In her career as a screenwriter, producer and creative consultant, Karen Hall has worked on numerous television series, including M*A*S*H, Hill Street Blues, Moonlighting, Roseanne, Grace Under Fire, Northern Exposure, Judging Amy and The Good Wife. She has received seven Emmy Award nominations, as well as the Humanitas Prize, the Women in Film Luminas Award, and the Writers Guild of America Award. Her novel, Dark Debts, was a Book of the Month Club main selection when first published in 1996 and has been translated into French, German, and Japanese. She rewrote some of the book and re-released it in 2016.

The Act One Podcast provides insight and inspiration on the business and craft of Hollywood from a Christian perspective.

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Episode Transcript

SPEAKER_01 (00:01):
All of my beginning students, they write one script
and they want me to, you know,find them an agent and sell
their show.
I do oil painting, it's a hobby,and I've always been amazed at
how much that's like writing.
Your first draft is like whenyou when you just color wash the
canvas so you're not painting onstark white.
So I always tell myself when I'mwriting a first draft, I'm just
getting paint on the canvas, andthen I'll go back and make it

(00:24):
work.
So there's that.
But the other thing is, when Ifinished my first oil painting,
I didn't think someone shouldhang it in a museum.

James Duke (00:40):
This is the Act One Podcast.
I'm your host, James Duke.
Thanks for listening.
Please don't forget to subscribeto the podcast and leave us a
good review.
My guest today is screenwriterKaren Hall.
In her career as a screenwriter,producer, and creative
consultant, Karen Hall hasworked on numerous television
series, including MASH, HillStreet Blues, Moonlighting,

(01:00):
Roseanne, Grace Under Fire,Northern Exposure, Judging Amy,
and The Good Wife, just to namea few.
She has received seven EmmyAward nominations, as well as
the Humanitas Prize, the Womenin Film Luminance Award, and the
Writer's Guild of America Award.
Her novel, Dark Death, was theBook of the Month Club main
selection when first publishedin 1996 and was translated into

(01:24):
French, German, and Japanese.
She rewrote some of that bookand re-released it in 2016.
Check it out.
Karen is a longtime facultymember at Act One and a good
friend of the program.
She has a lot of great insightthat I think you are going to
enjoy.
Karen Hall, welcome to the ActOne podcast.

(01:46):
It's a pleasure to have you on.

SPEAKER_01 (01:48):
Thank you.
Thanks for having me.

James Duke (01:50):
I've been a longtime fan of yours, and uh we were
just chatting just briefly thereand talking about uh you you've
been a part of uh the the ethosof um the act one community and
so much of especially in theearly days of of shaping the

(02:11):
conversation around um trainingand preparing Christians to work
in Hollywood.
And uh you've had um uh a veryinteresting career and uh as a
screenwriter and a producer.
And I'm just excited to talk toyou about a lot of your journey
and just let people get to knowyou a little bit.

(02:34):
And uh so let's start if we can,um, you know, back a little bit
for people to get to know you.
Uh tell us, you know, where didyou grow up?
Um and uh kind of what were theinitial inklings that you were
going to be a writer, that thiswas something you wanted to do

(02:55):
uh as a career, you wantedsomeone to pay you to write.
When did that first get birthedinside of you?

SPEAKER_01 (03:02):
I decided at age six that I wanted to be a writer and
have someone pay me to writebecause um my first grade
teacher was reading Charlotte'sWebb to us, and I guess she
talked to us a little bit aboutthe author, and I thought, wait
a minute, you can get paid formaking up stories.
So, you know, I'm like, I wentin on that.

(03:24):
Um, and I I just had alwaysloved to write from first grade
on.
And uh another reason that Ibecame a writer is because I
lived in lovely little town, butthat was so boring that I can't
even tell you.
Um there was a movie theaterwhen I was young, and we would

(03:45):
my sister and I would go toeverything they played.
So um I think I've seen a lot ofkung fu movies and uh Fu Manchu
movies and all of that.

James Duke (03:56):
Did you grow up in Georgia?

SPEAKER_01 (03:57):
No, I grew up in South Central Virginia.

James Duke (03:59):
Oh, Virginia, that's right.
That's right.

SPEAKER_01 (04:01):
Very very close to the North Carolina border.
It's tobacco country for a longtime.

James Duke (04:06):
When you were writing as a little kid, was it
just writing, telling stories,or did you actually think about
um because I can only imaginegrowing up in a small town
thinking about writing moviesand television couldn't have
been necessarily on your radar?

SPEAKER_01 (04:25):
No, that wasn't on my radar.
Um, really, my sister and I gother into writing too, and
because you know, I wantedsomebody to write with, and and
we were both bored.
So we would write a story, andyou know, I take it to a certain
point and then give it to her.
And and we really were learningto plot because we really wanted
to leave the other one stumped.

(04:47):
So it's like, let's see you getout of this.
So it was really good training.
But the earliest stuff we wrotewas absolutely we were writing
fan fiction before it was athing.
So, you know, it started with uhI had a crush on the on the um
captain of the football team,and uh, and he had a girlfriend

(05:10):
who, you know, I had a girlcrush on her, and so my my best
friend then and I startedwriting stories about them and
passing them back and forth.
And it's funny because I I laterbecame friends with the
cheerleader and we're stillfriends.
Um but after that, you know, I Iwas a big fan of the Osmonds,

(05:31):
and so then my my sister and Istarted writing Osman fan
fiction, and and we have anagreement now because I've we
both still got some of it, andwe have an agreement that
whoever dies first has to go tothe other person's house and and
burn it before anybody getsthere, but uh but you know, I
think we we learned a lot doingthat.

James Duke (05:51):
That's funny.
Well um Donnie Osman has uh uhno idea what the Hall girls
wrote, but uh he never will.
He never will.

SPEAKER_02 (06:02):
He won't.

James Duke (06:03):
That's funny.
So now did you grow up in a homethat was particularly religious?
Did you uh find yourself umthinking about uh the you know
things of God and the nature ofGod?
Because you obviously you'vegone on to write about those
kind of things, and I'm justcurious uh if if if any of those
things were instilled in youearly on.

SPEAKER_01 (06:26):
Well, I mean, you know, we were a religious
family, but that was just prettycommon back then.
Um, I have a brother who becamea Methodist minister, so but you
know, I don't remember ussitting around talking about it
a lot.
It was just it was veryincorporated in daily life.

(06:47):
It's like we would we would betalking about something else and
throw in some God and Jesus, andit just didn't seem weird.
Um, but I always have been justobsessed, and I I don't know
what to call it, but I've all mylife just been just wanting to
get closer to God, and and youknow, it didn't seem to be

(07:10):
bothering anybody else, youknow, but it's I just was
obsessed with it.
I have something, I don't knowwhat it is, and I don't know
what to call it, but it's justbeen an obsession with me all my
life.
And I I just kept trying tofigure out how I could get
closer.
And I remember during highschool was during the um, you

(07:31):
know, the the time of of uh theJesus freaks and the altar calls
and Billy Graham.
And so uh our priest, our ourpastor would have an altar call,
and I my deal with God wasalways, I'm not gonna go unless
I feel like you're moving me togo.
And I never did.
But all my friends are going andthey're coming back weeping.

(07:54):
And I remember one time goinginto the sanctuary like at
night, and there was nobodythere but me, and you know,
kneeling at the altar and justtelling God, basically, what am
I, chopped liver?
It's like you know how I feel,but you know, I just I just kept
going.
I just I I wanted that, but Iwasn't gonna do it if I didn't
feel like I I felt moved becauseotherwise it just was like a

(08:18):
show and I felt like ahypocrite.
So I was extremely well behavedin high school.

James Duke (08:25):
You were a good girl.

SPEAKER_01 (08:26):
I was a very good girl.
In fact, uh my nickname was Marybecause all my friends told me I
was the last virgin left.
It was it was during the sexualrevolution.
Um but I just, you know, I Ihave always like I read the

(08:47):
Bible, I really loved the Bible,and I read it a lot when I was a
kid.
I had a children's Bible, and Ibelieved it, and that was gonna
be my deal.
So I remember getting into aconversation with people in high
school in a government class,and I don't know what we're
talking about, but I'm talkingabout you know, all the stuff
that was going on in the world,and I was trying to make myself

(09:12):
known.
I I just said, you know, there'sthere's only one Bible, and it
hasn't changed.
And I remember I had tears in myeyes, and everybody was laughing
at me.
So here I am all these yearslater, and I still feel the same
way.

James Duke (09:28):
Wow.
And you all you are also a veryfunny writer.
I don't know if you I don'tthink you would classify
yourself as a comedy writer, butyou have written comedy, but
you're also a very funny writer.
There's that there's a lot,there's a lot that you've
written that is downright funny.
I mean, obviously you wrote forshows like MASH and Moonlighting

(09:49):
and other types of shows, butyou've done other things too.
And so was that a part ofgrowing up?
Was that was did you come from afunny household?
Did you did people acknowledgeyour humor early on?

SPEAKER_01 (09:59):
Was that something that you know everybody else was
just as funny?
And so nobody said, Karen,you're funny.
But you know, my father wasfunny, my mother was funny, my
cousins were funny, and uh kindof when we all got together, you
know, we would all tell storiesand everyone would try to make
everyone laugh.

(10:20):
So, you know, it was there wereso many of us, no one thought I
was funny.

James Duke (10:27):
Oh what what was your first?
Do you remember what your firstprofessional paid writing gig
was?

SPEAKER_01 (10:35):
Yes.
Um I was a senior in high schooland I sent a story into some
magazine, and they bought it andpaid me ten dollars.
So that's awesome.

James Duke (10:48):
You don't remember the magazine?

SPEAKER_01 (10:50):
No, I don't.
Um my first like really, reallyprofessional thing was uh my I
got hired to do a freelanceepisode of MASH.
So that was that's how I got mywriter's gift card.

James Duke (11:04):
And and you so before we I want to get to MASH,
but before we get to MASH, theum that was kind of a I don't
want to say it was the only way,but that was a very common way,
right, for aspiring writers backthen was to submit to
periodicals and to magazines andto uh maybe even newspapers,

(11:24):
right?
You write letters.
Um uh to get published in amagazine was kind of the zenith
point, wasn't it, for a lot ofpeople, aspiring writers?

SPEAKER_01 (11:34):
It was.
It was a big deal.
And what happened to me was Iwent to when I went to college,
I got interested in playwriting.
And so I spent all of my collegetime writing plays.
There wasn't anywhere really tosubmit them.
Um, and I wasn't thinking aboutsubmitting them.
Um, I don't know what I wasthinking about.

(11:54):
I was thinking about I lovedwriting plays, and then you
know, I always assumed I'd go upto college and you know, meet
somebody and get married, andhe'd go to work and I'd sit home
and write whatever I wrote.
About junior year, secondsemester, I realized that that
wasn't gonna happen.
And so I thought, okay, I amactually gonna have to feed

(12:15):
myself.
It was a big shock to me.
And so uh I decided, well, youknow, where will they where will
they pay you to do this?
And the answer was, you know,New York or Los Angeles.
And I decided that if I wasgoing to starve to death, I
didn't want to also freeze.
So I thought I'm gonna go whereit's warm.

(12:37):
Um, and I wrote my last semesterin in playwriting.
I we we had a really strict andwonderful playwriting teacher
who was my mentor, and he wouldmake us write three one act
plays per semester and rewriteeach one of them three times.
And I have taught I've taughtscreenwriting, you can't make

(12:58):
that happen.
Um, I don't know how he madethat happen, but it was perfect
training for writing fortelevision because one thing you
have to do is write fast andrewrite fast, and so I got used
to doing that.
But um, by my last semester, youknow, I'd written so many one
acts, I said, I really am justI'm out of one act ideas.

(13:19):
And I said, because I was a hugeMASH fan, and I said, What if I
took the cast of MASH, you know,those characters, and I'll write
a one-act play with with them?
And he said, Well, if you'regonna do that, why don't you
write a MASH script?
And this was long before anybodyever thought of writing a script
for something, and and so Isaid, I said, how how do I do

(13:40):
that?
And he said, I don't know, butwe'll find out.
And so uh he sent me to thelibrary, and I got a lot of um
radio plays, um and you know,scripts from them, and that's
kind of how I learned.
And then um I I had when I wasin grad school for one year, I

(14:02):
had uh I loved the show Taxi, soI thought I'm gonna write to
them and get them to send me ascript so I can look at it and
see what the format is.
And you know, back then it waspretty easy to get somebody to
do that, and so um I had afriend in graduate school who
also wanted to write fortelevision, so we wrote a spec

(14:22):
taxi script, and we went to aconference where we met um a guy
named Bert Metcalf, who was afreelance writer for MASH.
Um, and we ended up beingfriends forever, and uh asked
him, you know, what can we dowith this?
And he gave us uh the address ofa man named Um Jim Burroughs who

(14:43):
did all he would directed taxi.

SPEAKER_02 (14:45):
Yes.

SPEAKER_01 (14:46):
And so we sent it to Jim Burroughs and God bless him,
he called us, you know, we werein Virginia at my friend
Miriam's house, and he called usand told us that he really liked
the script, that it had athought it had a lot of really
good stuff in it, and we shouldkeep going, keep trying to do
this.

(15:06):
And that was, you know, I tellpeople these days when you know
everybody who wants to writecomes at you with what they want
is I'll write a script andyou'll get me an agent and I'll
have a series on the air in amonth.
That's not how it ever happenedor or how it happens now, but
that gave us a reason to keepgoing.

(15:26):
You know, so we kept writingspec scripts, and then uh
finally at the at the end of theyear, I decided I was gonna move
to LA and try to actually makeit.
Um my friend Miriam ended upstaying back in Virginia for
five more years, but then shecame out, she made it too.
We lived a block away from eachother in Sierra Madre.

(15:48):
Um, so you know it all happened.
But also a huge part of mine wasum when I wrote that MASH
script, and I was a just a hugefan of MASH, I would put signs
on the TV on Tuesday, lestanyone else dare think they were
going to watch something thatnight.
And um I went out with a groupfrom the University of Richmond

(16:10):
and did a two or three-weekcourse in LA, and the teachers
who taught it were more intotelevision as sociology.
Um, but they had a lot of peoplethey knew and and met with.
And so I took that class, andone of the people we met with
was Alan Alda.
And I started talking, so I meethim.
I'm sitting here talking to AlanAlda, and I told him about my

(16:32):
playwriting.
And I actually had written a uma one-act play that was being
produced in my community theaterwhile I was in LA.
So I was telling him about how Iwas missing my my you know big
debut to come here and talk tohim.
So he told me to send him, youknow, something that I'd
written.
So I went home, I sent him thatplay, and I think I sent him a

(16:55):
couple other things, and hecalled me on the phone at my
Sorrati house, which you know,none of my sorority sisters
would believe because one of mysorority sisters answered the
phone and and he said that itwas Alan Olda calling for me,
and she said, Yeah, and I'm BobRadford.
And so I'm lucky I ever got totalk to him, but um yeah, he

(17:18):
just kept having me send stuffand he kept telling me it was
good.
And then at one point he said,You know, I've talked to my
agent, and he really says youhave to live out here to be able
to break in.
And so I said, you know, okay.
So I dropped out of uh gradschool after one year.
Um went out there and I workedfor uh there was a temporary um,

(17:39):
you know, like like a KellyGirls thing called Apple One.
I don't know if they still haveit.

James Duke (17:44):
Oh yes.

SPEAKER_01 (17:45):
I I don't I think they still might.
Wow.
Yeah, and so I went there and Itook a typing test, and you
know, I asked them to, you know,when they hired me for jobs,
could they please send me to thestudios when they had them?
So they did that.
So I did about 11 months ofthat, and then I got a phone
call from Alan saying that Mashwanted to hire um a writer, and

(18:09):
it was during the whole ERApush, and so he was not happy
that they'd never had a femalewriter.
They'd had a a couple offreelance female writers that
never had a woman on staff, andso I he got me you know a chance
to go pitch there, and it'sfunny because um the guy who was
the executive producer, BertMetcalf, had at the same time

(18:32):
read a script that my agent hadsent him and decided he wanted
to call me in.
So he and Alan used to argueover who had discovered me.
I had a I had sent a script in,you know, um back when I was in
grad school and got thestandard, you know, uh rejection

(18:53):
letter that Bert had signed.
So I framed it and put it on mywall in my office, and Bert did
not think that was funny.
He was explaining to me, andit's like, I know, I know, I
just I love the irony.
Um but anyway, so I ended up Iended up getting the job and I
was there for the last twoyears.

James Duke (19:15):
You you were the first female staff writer on
MASH.
And oh that's such a crazy storythat Alan Alda and uh I mean who
does that?
Who goes from grad school ordropping out of grad school to
joining the staff of the numberone show on today?

SPEAKER_01 (19:33):
No, and I when I was in grad school, one day we were
in one of my classes, and and wedecided we would all go around
the table and talk about youknow where we saw ourselves in
five years.
And I said, Well, you know, Iwant to move to LA and I want to
get some work as a televisionwriter, so I hope in five years
that I've accomplished that.

(19:54):
And one of my friends said, Whydon't you see yourself writing
for MASH in five years?
And I just cracked up.
I'm like, you're out of yourmind, you know?
Um, and and within five years,well within five years, that's
what I was doing.
Wow.
Actually, I tried to turn thethe job down when it was offered

(20:14):
to me because I had done afreelance for them that um I
liked and they liked.
And then uh I went and did ashow called Eight Is Enough for
a year, and it got canceled atthe end of that year, and that's
when MASH was looking for astaff writer.
So um my agent, you know, theyhad liked my freelance, and so

(20:36):
my agent called them and said,you know, they want to interview
you for the staff position.
And um actually he told me theyhad wanted to offer me that.
And I told him he, I said, Iwant you to turn it down.
And he said, Are you out of yourmind?
And I said, I said, it's mesh,they will fire me in two weeks.
And he said, if they do fire youin two weeks, you'll live off of

(20:58):
it forever.
And so I said, Okay.
But he said, I am not gonna callMesh and turn down a staff job.
So I ended up, they didn't fireme, and um the rest is history.

James Duke (21:12):
That is uh that's a fantastic story.
I I think what's interestingabout that is a lot of people
don't realize this about thetown.
Obviously, there's just a lot ofgrossness about this business
and about this town.
But there is there's always beenthis sense of if you've got the

(21:32):
chops, we'll create the room foryou.
There's always been this senseof you know, school of hard
learn from the school of hardknocks.
If you show that you're willingto put in the hard work and
write and do, you know, likethere, there is that aspect of
the business too.
I just I know of so almost everyprofessional writer I know all

(21:54):
received a helping hand from anolder writer, a more established
writer or director or produceror someone.
They've all got that chance togo up because someone else said,
Hey, you you've got the stuff.

SPEAKER_01 (22:07):
Yeah, I I have a couple of people working now
who, you know, I was the one whotold them that.
And that that feels good.
The problem with that wholelovely system is that when you
turn to be about 45 years old,all bets are off.
So um, you know, and I wish I'dbelieved the people who told me

(22:29):
that because what my thinkingwas, well, we're the baby
boomers, you know, nobody canfire all of us, but I was wrong.
So um, and and men can workuntil they keel over and die,
but women, by the time you looklike their mother, they don't
want you in the room.
So it's the truth.

(22:51):
Um, you know, they don't wantyou ugling up their cocktail
parties.

James Duke (22:55):
Do you let's talk about that for a little bit
because obviously you mentionedthat you're a um how difficult
was it being a woman staffwriter?
How difficult was it to howdifficult was it?
Um what were the challenges uhyou faced um that you felt like

(23:17):
um you had to fight a little bitharder, a little bit, you know?
I I'm just curious, as someonewho lived it, you know, we we uh
what was the kind of the uniquethings that you felt like you
had to encounter uh in order toovercome?

SPEAKER_01 (23:31):
Well, one thing when the Me Too movement started, I
just went, Are you kidding me?
That was my entire career.
Um but uh I mean, not in termsof uh I didn't sleep with
anybody to get a break, butthere was just constant what
they would now call uh sexualassault verbally.

(23:53):
And you know, one guy used toput a mirror across from me in
one of the staff rooms so thathe could look up my skirt.
So I started wearing jeans afterthat.
I mean, not even not evenpretending it was like so you
know, it was a lot of blatantthat stuff.
Um, but I got a lot of jobsbecause they it was in an era

(24:17):
when um they had decided maybewe should have some women
writing since we have a lot offemale characters, and so you
know, I mean, the masked job Igot because they wanted to put a
woman on staff, and um, I thinkprobably the same was true at
Hill Street Blues.
I was the first woman, andMoonlighting, I was the first
woman.

James Duke (24:36):
So I'm like, you were the first woman on
Moonlighting?
Yes, wow, I would not I'd givenSybil, I I would um okay before
we get there, wow.
Um, with MASH, you know, thething that also I think our
audience needs to remember whoare listening to this is
television back then is was verydifferent from television today

(24:59):
in a lot of different ways.
But one of the biggest was if uhfor a show like MASH, the
majority of people who ownedtelevision sets in the country
tuned in to watch MASH.
So when there was a show on,there was only so many channels,
and so the majority of peoplewould be watching the same

(25:22):
thing.
So culturally, the conversationswere more people were talking
about, and that's these showswere bigger.
So the numbers that MASH woulddo like not there is nothing
that comes even close to alow-rated rerun of MASH back
then today because the audienceis so fractured, there's so many

(25:43):
options today.
Um, when when you were when youguys were in the room writing
MASH, um was there a sensebecause you're coming on to a
successful show, right?
You're coming into a show, likethe last two seasons of a of a
big hit TV show.
Was there a sense?
Did you or was it just kind oflike I'm just in here and I'm

(26:05):
not sure, I don't I'm I'mcurious if there was ever
conversation maybe from theother writers.
I mean, you had some brilliantGilbart and all these guys.
Like, I'm curious, was thereever a conversation about what
the audience thinks about thisshow?
Or was it just like, you know,we're in our room, we're talking
it's what we want the charactersto do, it's what, or was there a
conversation about, hey, what'sAmerica gonna respond to?

(26:29):
Uh if if Hawkeye, you know, ifHawkeye freaks out, I mean,
what's that famous episode whereHawkeye has the PTSD?
You know, like what I'm justcurious, was there a
conversation in the room aboutwhat America was thinking about
the show?

SPEAKER_01 (26:46):
No, there were zero conversations about that, and I
really think that's been thedownfall of a lot of shows.
Um, you know, I've just noticedshows that I love it after after
a couple of years, especiallynow because you know, there you
can go on the internet and youcan read what the fans are
saying, and you know, we we gotan occasional letter, but we
didn't really know what the fanswere thinking.

(27:07):
Um, and I think it's really hurtuh television for people to be
aware, you know.
I I love Ted Lasso, and I'm I'mwatching the third season with
great trepidation because it'slike, are they going to do that?
Um, you know, and and shows thatdid do that.
I mean, even as early as whenhappy days, when when people

(27:28):
started clapping for 15 minuteswhen Fonzi came in the room,
yes, not the same show.
And I think the thing about bothum MASH and um Hill Street Blues
were there, there was nothingexcept the show.
You know, it's like this is theshow, this is what we're doing,

(27:48):
these are who the charactersare.
This is um, and there wasnothing about what might the
fans like.
Um, of course, it's easier to belike that when there's only two
other shows you're competingwith, right?

James Duke (28:03):
Right, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 (28:04):
Three shows on the network.

James Duke (28:05):
So and and was Gilbart was Gilbart in the room
those last two seasons with you?
Like, did you work with him?

SPEAKER_01 (28:12):
No, I only saw him at parties in the last two
seasons.
Wow, okay.

James Duke (28:16):
Who who was running the show those?

SPEAKER_01 (28:19):
Metcalf was running the show.

James Duke (28:21):
Metcalf was okay.
And and how involved was AlanAlda on the creative side?
Was he involved pretty heavilywith the series?

SPEAKER_01 (28:29):
He was he was very involved.
Um, you know, he really trustedus, you know.
That was back in the day whenpeople really respected writers
too.
So he trusted us for what wewould come up with.
That was almost all fromresearch they had done.
Um, but he would have, you know,he was very involved in that
he'd have ideas for episodes andhe would write episodes and he

(28:51):
would direct episodes.
And I had an episode that I hadpitched, uh, you know, my first
day there that I wanted to do.
And we just kept putting a penin it because Alan was afraid
that it would make Hawkeye lookbad.
And I could see in my head how Iwas gonna write it, and I I
thought, no, it's it's gonnamake him look good ultimately.

(29:14):
And so we didn't do it the wholefirst season.
I was there, and then finally, Iguess at the beginning of the
last season, uh Alan and Alanand I wonder the two of us came
up with the idea of let's writeit together, and that way, you
know, he can make sure we don'tdo anything that makes Hawkeye
look bad.
So we wrote it.
The show was called Hey Look MeOver, and it was the um season

(29:36):
premiere for the last season.
And it's it's um, you know, whatI the topic I wanted to deal
with is you know, somebody, someother woman needs to call
Hawkeye on the fact that he onlychases the gorgeous nurses.
You know, it's like he's veryshallow in terms of you know who

(29:57):
he wants to carouse with.
And we had this woman namedKelly Wallet, who was uh she was
a Hawaiian woman, everybody knewher as Nurse Kelly, and she was
um she was adorable, but shewasn't somebody who looked like
a model, you know.

SPEAKER_02 (30:13):
Right.

SPEAKER_01 (30:13):
And and and the the main nurses he was chasing one
was Rita Wilson, who's TomHanks' wife.
I don't remember the name of theother one, but she was also
really pretty.
And so I I wanted to do anepisode where Kelly calls him on
the fact that you know hedoesn't pay any attention to
her, and so and it ended upbeing a really good episode, and

(30:35):
and you know, I think Hawkeyelearned something, but he didn't
um look bad, he just looked likehe looked like he'd looked for
the entire length of the series.
This is what he does.

James Duke (30:47):
Yeah, you know, it's often been said good comedy is
dramatic and good drama isfunny, and obviously a show like
NASH uh that was the playgroundin which you guys worked, uh you
which you played every episode.
I'm curious, how did that umwhat was the balance there?

(31:10):
Just for you as a writer and anyadvice that you have for
writers, what's the balancebetween the story versus the
joke?
Like what the how to turn how toturn up a scene on a dime where
you've got two characters, youknow, doing silly, you know,
silly wordplay to then all of asudden, you know, someone's

(31:31):
dying and their arms are ontheir operating table.

SPEAKER_01 (31:33):
You know, that that that was when you when you heard
the helicopters, that's when itwas time to stop joking.
But um, you know, for me, I justthat's what my natural
sensibility is.
I have I have a really darksense of humor, and um you know,
I liked writing those kind ofjokes, but I ended up deciding

(31:54):
to to be more of a one-hourdrama writer because the thing
about writing comedy is if youcome in and you had a bad day
the day before and or you don'tfeel well or whatever, it's like
I don't want to write funny whenI'm when I don't feel good.
So I noticed that I would alwaysput the funny scenes aside until
I got the dramatic sceneswritten.

(32:16):
Um, and I just thought I don'twant to spend the rest of my
life having to be funny all thetime.
Um, I remember I had a big, youknow, powwow with agents back
then because you know I didn'twant to be pigeonholed.
And I was supposed to just begrateful to be in television and
not be thinking about beingpigeonholed.

(32:37):
And plus, you know, once onceI'm a comedy writer, it's easy
to sell me as a comedy writer.

SPEAKER_02 (32:41):
Right.

SPEAKER_01 (32:42):
So so I had a big fight with them.
In fact, I left an agencybecause they advised me against
taking the job on Hill Street,and I I just thought, I know
this is wrong, so we're gonnapart company.
That's the thing Hill Street wasone of those shows, you know, it
was like mesh.
It's like it's funny when it'swhen people are funny, and then

(33:02):
it's serious when people areserious.
And and to an extent,Moonlighting was the same way,
and that's what I really likewriting.
I'm not capable of writingsomething with no humor in it.

James Duke (33:13):
Um it's that's funny you say that because I think
most people would remember MASHand Moonlighting as comedies,
and most people would rememberHill Street Blues as a drama,
but you're right.
I mean, that I I watched way toomuch TV when I was a kid, and I
was young, and I was theyoungest of four, so I was

(33:34):
always having to watch thingsthat were because it was like
whatever my older siblings andmy parents were watching, and so
I watched I was watching HillStreet Blues.
That was one of my dad's uhfavorite shows, and um there
were episodes that scared me,terrified me.
It was uh, but but I rememberthe the humor, and I and I think

(33:54):
that uh it's curious what you'resaying.
When people are funny, you writeyou write funny for them, and
when you know, the how do youavoid, I guess, how do you avoid
melodrama?
Uh because television ismelodramatic.
So, where is the balance therebetween um going back and forth

(34:15):
between those two things?
Or maybe is that the way youavoid melodrama is to be able to
bounce back and forth betweenthose two things?

SPEAKER_01 (34:22):
Yeah, that's a lot of it.
I mean, I just don't have anymelodramatic tendencies, so it
wasn't hard for me.
Um, but and I would have troublewhen somebody, when I was
teaching, if somebody's writingmelodrama, I have trouble
explaining to them what thatmeans.
Um, but usually it just meansthey're not acting like people

(34:42):
act, you know.
They're you know, people mightget melodramatic for you know
five minutes over something thatthey get over, but you know,
moods and emotions just bounceall over the place all the time.
So you know to me, that's how toavoid it.

James Duke (35:00):
That's good.
With with MASH, by the way,before we go, the um so you know
it's famously known for thefinal episode being you know the
number one episode of all timein terms of viewers.
And I think that the old I thinkthat the old story, maybe I'm am
I thinking of a different show,but I think it was during the
finale of MASH.

(35:20):
Um they had water pressureissues in New York because
people were at all at the sametime or running to the bathroom
during that.
So the majority of toilets wereall being flushed at the same
time and stuff.
It's terrible.
Yeah, that's what there was.
What when you when you guys as astaff, I mean, uh because at
that point I'm sure you hadobviously the writing had been

(35:41):
done and you had packed up andstarted moving on to other
stuff, but but what was thatlike to get the word back the
next you know couple of dayswhen the ratings came in?
Um, did you guys celebrate?
Was there some sort of specialthing of of of um of wow?
We just wrote the biggest thingever in television history.

SPEAKER_01 (36:01):
No, we didn't know that we'd done that.
What we did was we wanted towatch it at the same time as the
rest of America, because youknow, we knew a lot of people
would be watching it, it was abig deal.
So we reserved the theater atFox, and we all the whole
company sat in there and watchedit while America was watching
it.
Um, and I really liked that.
And and it's hard to believe,but I have not watched it since

(36:24):
then.

James Duke (36:24):
Wow.

SPEAKER_01 (36:25):
And you know, I constantly have people telling
me how good it was.
Um, you know, I think because wewere so close to it, I mean,
everybody was happy with it.
All I could see were things Ididn't like about it.
So, for instance, uh our setburned down in the middle of
filming it.

(36:45):
So we had to write in a fire,and it bothered me because that
wasn't organic, it wasn't in theoriginal script.
It's like we just have to dothis.
That bothered me a lot.
You know, if I go back and watchit now, it probably wouldn't
bother me at all.

James Duke (37:00):
But the set just caught fire and act as like
something.

SPEAKER_01 (37:03):
Yeah, it was it was not the not the studio set, but
the set out in Malibu where wedid the exterior shots.
Wow, you know, fire sweptthrough Malibu, so you know camp
no longer look the same.
Um, and I don't know what else,but little things that had
bothered me about it.
I'm just like that.

(37:23):
Uh all I can see is is what'swrong.

James Duke (37:26):
Did you work on did you consider going on to
Aftermash?
The what was it?
Was it called Aftermash?

SPEAKER_01 (37:31):
The show was, and and I didn't because I had
already uh agreed to go to HillStreet.
And um, I really loved HillStreet.
I was excited to be going toanother show that I really
loved.

James Duke (37:47):
And that is a that was a fantastic show.
That is I don't realize, I don'tknow if people realize what a
precursor Hill Street was to somuch of television, particularly
television in the 90s and early,late 90s, early 2000s, in terms
of how it shaped um reallyinfluential, wouldn't you say

(38:07):
really influential and how itshaped um our television?

SPEAKER_01 (38:10):
I always make my um my students watch it, watch the
pilot of Hill Street and tellthem, you know, if this hadn't
happened, you wouldn't havestreaming right now.
You know, yeah, yeah.
This made it possible for canyou explain that?

James Duke (38:24):
What what what is what what was it about Hill
Street Blues that you think wasuh so influential?

SPEAKER_01 (38:30):
It was, you know, up until then, cop shows had always
been pretty uh formulaic and andvery pristine, you know.
It's like, you know, once Rankois taking a magazine and going
to the bathroom, that's adifferent thing than we've seen
before.
Um, and and it was very gritty,and it was really so much closer
to what cops actually go throughthan anything that we'd ever

(38:53):
done before.
Um, you know, the topics thatwere tackled and uh just
everything.
It just like broke throughsomething to make everything
that came after it be able tohappen.

James Duke (39:05):
And was that Botchko?
Did Botchko create the show?

SPEAKER_01 (39:08):
Yes.

James Duke (39:09):
And what was it like working with him or for him?

SPEAKER_01 (39:12):
I I learned so much from him.
You know, I I've got greatmentors, and and and he was one
of the biggest ones.
And I remember like he taught meeverything I know about
dialogue, and because like amost beginning writers, I was
just overwriting everything.
And one day he he called me inhis office and he had my script

(39:34):
on the desk and he said, youknow, stand behind me.
So I did, and he said, watchthis.
And he just went through andstarted striking out words, and
that was like a moment thatchanged my writing life.
It's like, oh wow, you know, andwhen I teach dialogue, the thing
that I try to harp on is don'tuse any word that you don't have

(39:56):
to use, and you know, go throughand strike out it because.

James Duke (40:00):
makes the dialogue crisp and it makes it just you
know 100% better so i learnedthat from him i learned a lot of
uh how to put a story togetherfrom him um and i remember i i
just always felt like i wasn'tgood at it and he told me he
said he said you will learn toto write story when you have to

(40:21):
and i thought okay and thenlater when i was running a show
it's like oh okay i get it'slike nobody's gonna fix this so
i had to learn it wow and for onhill street you said you were
you were also the only femalewriter uh staff writer on hill
street books yes i think theyhad some after i left but at the

(40:44):
time i was how long were you onthe show how long was i on it i
think i was there for twoseasons okay back then you know
when you could get a new jobanytime you wanted one two
seasons was about as long as isyou know i got bored after two
seasons i wanted to go writesomething else you know that's
the no you wouldn't stay youwouldn't necessarily stay on a

(41:05):
show the whole run would you noit's like I've written this I
want to go write something elseso I left there and I went and
wrote a bunch of movies of theweek and then um Glenn started
being after me to come work onmoonlighting and I turned him
down for a long time um becauseI I was not a huge fan of that

(41:27):
show I became a huge fan of itbut I've never written silly
stuff and I didn't think Iwanted to write silly stuff but
finally I I went and I actuallyended up having a lot of fun
writing silly stuff and then youknow most of it was not silly so
now that was a show for a lot ofpeople who don't know that was a

(41:50):
show that actually that had abig um if I if I remember
correctly you can correct me butit it had a big uh campaign
audience campaign to keep itrenewed because it was kind of
always on the bubble and atleast towards the latter years
right like that like there was abig they used to call them a big

(42:11):
write in campaign because thatwas the way right people would
write letters so ABC would getflooded keep keep moonlighting
on the air right and so and andand so it was it had a it had a
a the the the audience maybewasn't necessarily as large but
it was an intense audiencebasically yes I I left there
when uh I found out Sybil waspregnant because I just I said

(42:35):
to Glenn I don't think we have ashow anymore.

SPEAKER_01 (42:38):
You know I I didn't want them to sleep together.
I thought that we didn't have ashow after that and if gunsmoke
could do it for 24 seasons Ididn't know why we couldn't and
um because that's what all theyou know dramatic tension was
about and I still think I'mright about that but uh when I
found out she was pregnant Ijust went I the this isn't the

(42:58):
show and this I don't want towrite it.
So I left my sister took my joband uh oh really Barbara took
your job yeah so she got to dealwith that.

James Duke (43:08):
That's funny.
Now okay so I'm from Memphisjust so full disclosure I'm from
Memphis my mom would tell me oldSybil stories so I'm just you
know like to be clear like Ialready have a little true story
you know behind the scenesbackground.
I'm curious especially given thefact that you were the you know

(43:29):
the only female writer there fora while like um was was Sybil a
handful did did did she did didis that was was that a little uh
made up in the press or whatwhat was it like behind the
scenes?

SPEAKER_01 (43:41):
Let's just say that there's not much I can say about
Sybil without getting myselfinto trouble.

James Duke (43:47):
Did you guys get along the two of you or no?

SPEAKER_01 (43:51):
Um I mean short answer is yes um she you know
sible warned to be my bestfriend but Sybil had issues with
Glenn and Bruce that I did nothave and and I did not want to
team up with her against themand that was kind of where our
conflict was yeah yeah and andBruce Willis obviously um he

(44:16):
kind of came out of nowhere thatshow was the show that that that
launched his career.

James Duke (44:20):
And if I remember correctly to once again you
correct my memory here but Ithink you were off the show at
this point but uh when he cameback after diehard that was when
they it was like suddenly thenetwork wanted him right it was
uh it everything kind of flippedand is that was that really the
downfall of the show at thatpoint when it was I don't know I

(44:40):
don't know I was gone by thenbut um you know I adore Bruce
but I only had to work with thepre-diehard Bruce my sister got
the post diehard Bruce and Ithink we have a different take
on it but you know when when Iwas working with him he I can't
say enough good things about himand his worth work ethic was

(45:02):
incredible um and he was justgreat i you know I loved him
yeah it's sad to see right nowwhat he's going through you know
stuff yeah also the thing that Ithink a lot of people don't
always remember in this businessunless you're actually working
in the business day in and outis is they call him stars for a
reason.
They have genuine power andcontrol.

(45:25):
And the bigger the star thebigger the power and control.
And um that's a part of the gameright Karen that you have to
play in the business.

SPEAKER_01 (45:34):
It is and I'll tell you every show that I have
created you know since then Ihave made an ensemble cast for a
reason because you know withwith the two of them it's like
they just completely had us overa barrel because you can't have
the show without the two of themyou know we did some depesto
episodes we proved that um andthen I went on to do judging Amy

(45:59):
and I will never again do a showwhere the where an actor's name
you know is part of the title.
It's in the show that's stupidyou know I'll also never do one
what where an actor is anexecutive producer.
It just works so much betterwhen the power is distributed

(46:21):
better than that.
Speaking of judging Amy you uhso that show was created by your
sister right yes I mean aversion of it was created there
were many versions of it createdbefore it got on the air so I
think Amy and her husband hadcreated a version I know that
John Tinker and whoever he waswriting with at the time had

(46:44):
done a version um but barber didthe version that ended up
getting on the air.

James Duke (46:49):
Okay.
And up to up to before judgingAmy had you ever uh been on a
staff with your sister or wasthis the first time you guys
were working together in a roomno that was uh ever since you
know we wrote stories and tradedthem off in high school that was
the first time we had everworked together.
So so so the the only time youuh the last time you guys had

(47:11):
worked together was your Osmonduh fanfiction fan fiction to
judge again me and it was funnybecause you know I loved working
with Barbara in a lot of ways umthe way in which I did not love
working with Barbara which sheknows is that she had to be
nicer to everybody else than shedid to me because I'm her

(47:33):
sister.

SPEAKER_01 (47:33):
So if she got mad at everybody else she yelled at me.
So I didn't like that part.
But you know I I love we writevery very similarly I'll find
stuff now that we wrote a whileago and I can't remember who
wrote what because our stylesare just so close.
And so I remember like gettingnotes from Barb was great

(47:55):
because you know I I came in andsat down one day and I had a
script I needed to do a rewriteon and we talked in shorthand
and so almost nothing was saidand other writers were sitting
in the room and it's like whenwe're done they thought you know
how to go rewrite this based onwhat just happened but you know
um I loved that part of it.

(48:18):
And I loved working on the show.
I it gave you a chance to writeyou know so many different
things that I really likedwriting.
So that was probably my favoritestaff job I ever had.

James Duke (48:30):
You were you you your career you've worked with
so many great actors I mean evenwith judging enemy with time
daily the the I mean uh justthere are there are certain
roles that some of these actorsinhabit that you just like wow I
I you just they they own them ata kind of a different level and
I think that show Time Daily wasjust she was that character.

(48:53):
Yeah she really was when youwhen you know you have an actor
at an out and out you know AlanAlder I mean obviously Alda even
a completely different levelwith Hawkeye because he was so
integral but you know SybilBruce you know all these guys um
when you've got an actor thatyou're just like is is if as a
writer do you just want to justthrow as much raw meat to them

(49:15):
as you can like I'm curiousabout your process you think man
I can't wait to hear these guyswith these oh yeah the thing
about them was because I I'ddone some work where this wasn't
true but with you know theactors that you mentioned I knew
that what I wrote was what I wasgoing to end up seeing in
dailies and that was veryexciting because you know I
could hear it in my head I knewhow it should be and then to

(49:37):
just go and just enjoy thedailies because you were getting
you know what you should getthat was great.

SPEAKER_01 (49:44):
And it would be fun to write for for both uh Tyne
and Amy it's like I would writeto what I knew they were really
good at um and just look forwardto seeing it because it just
would be great.
So around I think it was aroundthis time and once again correct
my correct my uh memory here Ithink it was around this time

(50:09):
you uh decided to write a noveluh called Dark Debts and I uh
highly recommend everyone who'slistening to this uh to go out
and get it it's fantastic yeahbut but make sure make sure they
get the 2016 version and not the1996 version well that's the one

(50:30):
that I read you took you know II I took a lot of bad words out
of the next version becausemostly from my mother who was
like 92 at the time and shewanted to be able to rec uh
recommend it her friends butalso um when I wrote the first
version you know my protagonistis a very liberal Jesuit and and

(50:53):
I was a it I want to say idiotliberal at the time um and after
my conversion experience thatcame from writing it I just kept
kind of following where God ledme and so there's a lot of stuff
in that first version that Ijust didn't feel good about you
know leaving out there in theworld like things that the

(51:14):
priest was not happy with withthe church that I have long
since come to be happy with.
And so what I did in the secondversion was I added another
priest who was a conservativeJesuit who was based on a good
friend of mine so that so thatyou could hear both sides of
that story.

James Duke (51:32):
Oh okay I didn't know that that's interesting
maybe I should go I'll go backand read the the new version I
never read it um let's talk alittle bit about uh that's what
I that's kind of what I wantedto get to is you you uh in the
process of writing this book andlike you said just then there
that some of the characters inthe book are are are priests you
found yourself you know welllike any good writer you need to

(51:55):
go back and do some researchbecause you were raised
Methodist you wanted to and sothis then led to a spiritual
awakening in your life and I'mjust curious if you could just
kind of unwrap that for our forour audience what was that
process like when did you decideto write the book and what was
that uh process like I'll tellyou one thing I have a new book
coming out I don't know when butI wrote a book for Ignatius

(52:16):
press that is about the theconservative Jesuit that I based
the new character in the newbook on and um you know so I got
to I I got to use him to say thethings that I now believe.

SPEAKER_01 (52:33):
And when I was doing reviews for the first I mean for
the when my editor let merewrite the first book he had
always wanted to take a bookthat a writer had written and
then wait some years and letthem write it again to see how
it would change.
So when I had a lot ofinterviews about it and people
would ask me you know why I whyI felt the need to change it it

(52:55):
was hard to answer that questionbecause the real answer was
because I put a lot of nonsensein that first version and I want
to fix it before I go to mygrave.
So you know I made all sorts ofthings up that meant that.
But my conversion experience wasyou know I had been very
religious growing up and then Ijust hit the point where I'd had
it with trying to figure it allout.

(53:18):
I went back to uh the Catholicchurch instead of a Protestant
church because I really hadfallen in love with you know
what I what I used to think ofas just stylistic things.
But you know I always wantedsomething more than to sit on a
bench and have somebody lectureme.
It's like so I I frequently tellpeople that I became Catholic

(53:38):
because I have ADHD and it'slike I got to stand up and sit
down and kneel and you know saysome things so I can stay awake.
But you know in terms of comingback to Christianity I remember
the first because I'd been gonefor 15 years and you know I
wasn't really giving it anythought.
And so when I first got back tochurch it's like my first

(54:00):
thought was well they stillbelieve the same archaic stuff
they used to they haven't grownup at all.
And so it's like okay so notonly do I do this research but
I've got to convince myself thata a character I'm writing is
supposed to be reallyintelligent would believe all of
this.
And so when I left I had afriend who had gone with me who

(54:21):
belonged to the church and sheasked me you know would I ever
think of coming back and I waslike you know well no because I
know one of the things at thetime I was on my high horse
about was you know women's liveso you know Catholics aren't
famous for that.
And so then I came back thesecond week and I just felt

(54:43):
extremely nostalgic for the timein my life when I believed all
of that stuff because it's likeyou know I mean I I I I really
wish I could go back and believethat again.
And then after a couple moretimes I said to myself if
there's any way on earth I canmake myself believe this story

(55:04):
again I'm going to and then Iwent home and I had piles of
books that you know I had boughtback when I had uh you know I
mean my mother always says umyou don't stand for something
you'll fall for anything which Ithink you know the the whole
world is a good example of thatright now but uh I'd I said I'd

(55:27):
see books like I remember thetitles of books would make me
think that I was right in notbelieving in Christianity.
So when I finally got to thatpoint I made myself two piles of
books and one was piles of booksof people defending Christianity
and the other was all these NewAge books and everything else
and not even New Age but youknow very liberal books.

(55:48):
So I started reading and aboutthree books into the the
anti-religious stack I realizedthat these people I had a
fundamental difference withthese people which is they don't
believe in the supernatural.
And I grew up in a haunted houseso I knew that there was
something going on that I didn'tknow about.

(56:08):
And so it just that was like aturning point to me.
So I went okay they don'tbelieve something that I
absolutely believe.
So I can just push that wholestack aside and read the other
books.
And I couldn't get to the pointI don't I don't think you really
can where you know books hadconvinced me that it was right.

(56:28):
But you know Barbara Nickelosilaughs at me because I I always
told her that the fourth stageof my conversion was me saying
oh hell I believe this I justyou know I said you got to give
some credence to you got tobelieve something and so why not
believe what you want to believeum but I also felt like I also
have to give some credence tothe fact that I feel something

(56:51):
on the other side of this youknow if if if nothing were going
on there I wouldn't feel what Ifeel and so I need to give some
credence to that so I did andthen you know not too long after
that I joined the church.
But even then I I I write aboutthis in my new book I was really
um what I call I was a I was aMahoney Catholic which doesn't

(57:16):
have much to do with you know aSt.
Ignatius Catholic and so youknow I had to I had to reconvert
myself after I converted to justkeep going where I felt led.
And that took me really back towhere I had started with you
know I believed the Bible.
I I know that in the year 2023for me to say I believe this

(57:40):
because it's in the Bible Imight as well be saying you know
because I I saw I'd written onthe clouds as far as the rest of
the world thinks but it's it'swhere I am and it's where I'm
gonna be it's a that's a it'ssuch a beautiful story the way
in which this passion forstorytelling leads you back to

(58:01):
the greatest story ever told.

SPEAKER_02 (58:03):
Yes.

James Duke (58:04):
And um and you know the great thing is is is why I'm
encouraging people to read thebook the 2016 version of the
book is because the book uhwrestles one it's a great it's
just a great yarn so like if youjust want to I I mean I I think
I read it in two sittings likeit just I just I'm remembering

(58:25):
years ago it just it it it's ait's a it's a fun fast paced uh
supernatural thriller and um sothat's fun.
I like those kind of stories butit but it because it's a novel
you clearly are you're havingmore than just the the the
obvious conversation thesecharacters are grappling with um

(58:49):
what real life faith looks likeand that is something that I
think to this day all of usgrapple with what does faith
look like when applied in thereal world when we're trying to
live it out in the real worldand when you have your
characters actually do thatinstead of you know I think this
is something that you and I havesomething in common.

(59:09):
This is something that's partbeen part of the DNA for act one
since it's since its inceptionand that is this idea of
Christian cinema or Christianmovies or whatever um the the
label that we give it everyoneknows this now.
Everyone knows that we give itthat label because it's not

(59:31):
good.
We give it that label because umthe characters are written two
dimensionally um the plots nevergo anywhere you you know what
you know what's how the movie'sgonna end uh you know five
minutes into the movie um mynumber one problem is there is
no subtext and there's noexactly and there's no answer

(59:55):
and there's no subtext exactlywhat they're they're thinking
you know and

SPEAKER_01 (01:00:00):
Everything that they're thinking.

James Duke (01:00:02):
It's like dragnet.
It's like just take the facts,ma'am.
Just the facts, ma'am.

SPEAKER_01 (01:00:05):
And there's no the power is in the place where the
audience, you know, sees the subsees the text and feels the
subtext.
Because, you know, the power ofanything is where the audience
feels like they get to do somework.
It's like, oh, aha, I get whatthey're trying to say.
And that's powerful.

(01:00:27):
But it's it's the same as showdon't tell.
It's like if somebody is justgoing to give you a list of
facts, there's no feeling inthat.

James Duke (01:00:35):
So how do you, as a screenwriter?
So, and then this is thequestion I was trying to get to,
because with a novel, obviously,you're you're able to kind of go
to all kinds of places with thisbecause of the internal dialogue
of the characters.
But with a screenplay, what isyour advice or you know, even
your own struggles with this uhas a writer?

(01:00:56):
As a as a how do you externalizesuch an internal discussion and
that being faith lived out?
Like when someone's trying toquote unquote practice their a
character who is either faithfulor faithless, how do you
externalize such an internalaspect to the human nature?

SPEAKER_01 (01:01:18):
Well, the short answer is that it's really,
really, really hard.
You know, one of my mantras whenI'm teaching is this is so much
harder than you think it is.
So, you know, you have to findsomething that symbolizes
something and you have to writeit in a way that the audience,
you know, knows.
And and and same as don't useany words that you don't have

(01:01:38):
to, it's like not just in a in aspeech, but in in entirety.
It's like if you can do thiswithout a word, do it.
Um there's a really good scene,and I really loved the first
season of uh True Detective, andand there's a great scene where
they go to look at this placewhere you know something bad

(01:01:59):
happened.
Um and there's like maybe maybe10 words in that scene.
And it's mostly you watchingthem discover stuff and and feel
what it makes them feel, and youunderstand it.
So, but for a writer, it's likeyou got to know what those 10
words are because they need topoint you toward, you know, what

(01:02:22):
what we're saying and setting upas a subtext.
You have to just you have towrite very economically and you
have to, you know, be skillfulin in how you um write a symbol,
you know, write something that'sgonna stand for something else.
And the and the biggest thing ofall of it is you have to trust
the audience.
And and this is something I harpon with my students too, because

(01:02:45):
they think the audience has tobe told every single solitary
thing 15 times.
Um, so you know, and the showsthat like Hill Street, when I
first started watching it, oneof the reasons I loved it is
because I could watch itmultiple times because I never
got it all the first time,because they didn't slow down
for the audience.
And I like that, I think that'svery powerful.

James Duke (01:03:08):
And if you don't know, and if you genuinely don't
know that I've often tried tolike, what is it about um so
many what we call greattelevision shows that just works
at a different level?
And one of them is you yougenuinely don't know what's
going to happen next.
There's a low grade tension,even if the show, I mean, I'm

(01:03:28):
not I'm not even necessarilytalking about thriller type
shows, I'm just talking aboutdramas, right?
There's a low grade tension.
I don't know what this characteris gonna do next, and would and
they surprise you, and then Iwant to go down, okay.
Let's go down this path, let'ssee what happens, right?
And so if it's Tony Soprano, youdon't know what's gonna happen
because he's a psychopath, or ifit's um judging Amy and you have

(01:03:50):
a mom and a and a and a daughterum at a crossroads arguing about
something really important, um,you don't know how it's gonna
get resolved, and that draws youin uh as an audience member,
right?

SPEAKER_01 (01:04:03):
Yes, I I love I love The Sopranos and I love shows
like that where you literallydon't know what might happen.
Um, you know, I've got a showI'm working on now that I'm
trying to make that the case.
Um, and you have to do thingslike, you know, one of the
things you have to do is ifyou're gonna kill off a
character, you can't write themtentatively before that.

(01:04:26):
You've got to write them likethey're gonna be there forever,
and you know, they have allthese qualities that make people
love them to death and then killthem.
Because I remember and in inDark Deads, I had somebody was
telling me that, you know, Ireally got upset when so-and-so
died.
And I thought, good, because Iwanted you to get upset when

(01:04:47):
they die.

James Duke (01:04:48):
Yeah, it's like the old Star Trek red shirts, right?
Like they're just there, youknow that they're going to die,
they're just there for fodder.
And yeah, I think Hill StreetBlues was actually one of those
shows that began to pushtelevision in that direction
where where there were realstakes for the quote unquote
main cast, and there wereconsequences and shocking deaths

(01:05:09):
and things like that.
The um one of the things thatwe're constantly preaching at
Act One, and I know you've donethis for years, is when trying
to tell a story, don't startwith theme, because I think that
that's like you know, that'slike throwing the um what do you
call it, the anchor for yourship over before leaving port.

(01:05:30):
Yeah.
Um for you as a writer, um,where do you like to start?
Do the ideas come withcharacters?
Do is it is it characters thatfascinate you or is it
scenarios?
Where kind of where do ideas getwhere do you go to get uh ideas
and how do you uh sort ofdevelop and foster those ideas?

SPEAKER_01 (01:05:50):
I used to always start with characters because I
was always really good atcharacter and I'm really good at
dialogue.
But when when I start to try todo things on my own, you know,
you can have brilliantcharacters spouting wonderful
dialogue for a long time, butyou're not getting anywhere.
So even when I'm teaching, Ialways try to decide am I gonna

(01:06:12):
start with plot or am I startwith character?
And I've been leaning a lot morelately into starting with plot.
Um, you know, because it's likethe blueprint.
It's like if you don't know, youknow, where this go and when
it's going where, um, you know,you're just gonna be because
people I was like this when Ifirst started, but I love voice

(01:06:36):
writing characters, and I couldjust have them sit and banter
and you know forever.
Then I started when I wasworking, I'd get scripts from
people who were trying to breakin and I'd go, you know, your
characters are lovely, but Ijust don't want to sit and
listen to them talk for 14pages, you know.
I want something to happen.
Um I have I think one of thethings that's been kind of lucky

(01:06:58):
for me as a writer is I getbored really easily.
So I'm really aware of you knowwhen the audience is gonna get
bored.
Um and and and there's so muchstuff you just have to do
consciously, which I also try toexplain to my students.
It's like, you know, you got toknow that they can't talk for 14
pages.
So if you write 14 pages, yougotta cut 13 of them, you know.

(01:07:23):
Um, but I there's so many thingswhen you're teaching, you just
feel like that you're talking ina voice that only dogs can hear.
I feel like things I tell themare so simple to do and they
just don't do them.

James Duke (01:07:36):
Yes, that's so true.
I love that.
Um, what what okay, so for anaspiring writer who's listening
to this podcast, what what dothey what do they not understand
about plot?

SPEAKER_01 (01:07:49):
There's a couple of things.
One is uh my my mentor alwayssaid to me, I won't let you
break the rules until you showme that you can follow them.
So don't try to write memento.
You know, everybody wants towrite, you know, some big huge
thing that's gonna change theindustry.
And no, um, you know, I I startwith like diehard and jaws and

(01:08:14):
other things that are reallyclear three-act plots.
Because the thing about thatthat plot diagram is that it
works.
And so, you know, do that firstand then figure out um, like I
love the pilot of Breaking Bad,but the the stuff that's up
front is really it's from thethird act.
So, and so you can do that onceyou know how to write in a

(01:08:38):
linear way, and you know thatI'm putting third act stuff
here.
Um, so you know, a lot of it isjust to be conscious of it and
to be conscious of following therules.
And if you break the rules, youat least have to know what the
rules are and you have to knowexactly what you're doing.
So there's that.
Um, another thing I've beentelling people lately is I read
a quote from John Wells whosaid, I wish someone had told me

(01:09:02):
that this was like learning toplay an instrument.
Because when I teach people, youknow, uh all of my beginning
students, they write one scriptand they want me to, you know,
find them an agent and selltheir show.
And this is another I talk in avoice only dogs can hear.
It's like your first script, youwere not gonna find an agent,
you're not gonna sell your show.

(01:09:23):
Um, I also I've been doing, I dooil painting um as a hobby, and
I've always been amazed at howmuch that's like writing.
So, you know, your first draftis like when you when you just
color wash the canvas so you'renot painting on stark white.
So I always tell myself when I'mwriting a first draft, I'm just
getting paint on the canvas andthen I'll uh can't canvas and

(01:09:45):
then I'll go back and make itwork.
Um so there's that.
But the other thing is, youknow, when I finished my first
oil painting, I didn't thinksomeone should hang it in a
museum.

unknown (01:09:57):
Right.

SPEAKER_01 (01:09:59):
It's good enough that I'm hanging that it's
hanging on my wall, but you justhave to understand how hard this
is to learn, how much it takeswork in practice.
And and you know, I always uhwhenever I go somewhere and some
beginning writer raises theirhand and says, How do I get an
agent?
I always tell them you're askingthe wrong question.

unknown (01:10:18):
That's right.

SPEAKER_01 (01:10:19):
You know, the question is, how do I become as
good as a professional writer?
Because that's when you will getan agent.
There'll be agents killingthemselves over you.
But boy, trying to make anybodyslow down and do it, you know.

James Duke (01:10:32):
No one like no one likes that answer.
At Act One, we we talk about the10-year rule.
The thought is if you just teachme how to write it, I've already
got the greatest idea in theworld, right?
So now you're just gonna tell meall these, you know, what how to
format it.
Okay, sure, whatever.
Now tell me how to sell thescript and make all this money.

(01:10:54):
And and and and it's like I Idon't even I don't even know the
world in which you're askingthis question because the every
every professional writer I knowum has been working minimum,
have been writing for years forfor at least a decade before
anyone would would wouldconsider um um buying their

(01:11:16):
stuff.
They they've they've uh I alwaystell I always tell our act one
students is you have a thousandbad pages in you.

SPEAKER_02 (01:11:22):
Oh, yes.

James Duke (01:11:23):
And as soon as you get those thousand pages, you
got to get those thousand badpages out of you as soon as
possible.
That's like your first 10screenplays.

SPEAKER_01 (01:11:30):
I know.
Yeah, I have a I have a producerfriend who tells people he'll
read their fifth screenplay.
Yes, yes, I'm not gonna read thefirst four.
And you know, I mean that's oneof the things I've been like in
and out of teaching because Iget so frustrated that I can't
make anybody hear that.
And nobody is interested in, youknow, what I wanted to do when I

(01:11:51):
wanted to be a writer is Iwanted to become a really good
writer.
Yeah.
Um, and when I went, when Imoved to LA, I said, okay, you
know, what's what what's mygoal?
What do I want to be true aboutme?
And and what I told myself was Iwant it to be true that if
somebody hires me, they knowthey're gonna get a good script.
You know, my goal was not I wantto win an Oscar.

(01:12:13):
Yeah, you know.
So uh I I talk to people a lotabout what are you know holy
goals and unholy goals, and alot of beginning writers have
unholy goals.

James Duke (01:12:23):
Yep, and have and have um unholy expectations.
I the the um nothing beats agood work ethic.
No, it it just I'm sorry, butyou've gotta have this mentality
where I'm going to work today,I'm putting on my hard hat and
I'm gonna put the work in tofeed my family.

(01:12:46):
And it doesn't mean that whatI'm gonna work do for the next
eight hours is going to get makeme famous and make me a lot of
money.
It just means that I'm just oneday closer to getting a little
bit better.
And um, and that it just takestime, and that's not something
that uh a lot of people want tohear today.
They want that kind of thatautomatic.

(01:13:06):
The the truth of the matter is,is if you read the script for
Michael Clayton, you think, oh,this Michael Clayton script is
amazing.
I can write a mic a script likethat, but you can't.
It took him years before hewrote that script.
It's just it takes time and ittakes really hard work.

SPEAKER_01 (01:13:26):
Yes, and and you know, I I do tell my students
that from what I've seen, it'sthe people who are willing to
work the hardest that will endup being successful, and some of
them aren't even the bestwriters, but it's like you know,
they just kill themselves.
Um, and when I first got when Ifirst started taking playwriting
in college, I I always talk tomyself about you know, what is

(01:13:49):
my goal and and what'saccomplishable.
And so I thought, well, what I'dlove to be is the best
playwright in this department,but I have no control over that
because I have no control overhow much natural talent I have.
So I said, okay, I can becomethe hardest working playwright
in this department because Ihave total control over that.

(01:14:12):
And and so that's what I set outto do.
And you know, if you do that,you you might end up becoming
the best.

James Duke (01:14:19):
That's great.
That that's really good advice.
Karen, this has been fantastic.
I love, I think I could talk toyou for hours about all this
kind of stuff.
I know you, I know you'reworking on uh some stuff now,
and um, I just we just want tobless you and thank you.
Hope everything's as youcontinue to work and um create
great stories.
We pray that things go well foryou.
And I just want to thank you foryour time.

(01:14:40):
And you've you've always beensuch a source of inspiration and
challenge uh to those of us inthe business.
Um and um um I just thank you.
Thank you for your investment inAct One.
Thank you for your investment inuh the community here.
And and um I just I just want tothank you for for all you've
done.

SPEAKER_01 (01:15:01):
Thank you.
And I really enjoy talking toyou about all of this anytime.

James Duke (01:15:06):
Well, I'd love to what I like to do is I'd like to
close our podcast by praying forour guests.
Would you allow me to pray foryou?
Sure.
Heavenly Father, I just uh comebefore you thanking you for my
sister Karen, thanking you foruh her kindness, thank you for
her just her wisdom and herclarity of thought.
Um God, thank you for uh justusing her in so many different

(01:15:30):
ways uh over the years, um, notonly in just telling great
stories and making people laugh,um, but in encouraging other
writers and inspiring them andteaching them and training them.
God, I just pray right now forall of her current endeavors.
Uh, God, that you would gobefore her and open whatever
doors and uh give her access towhatever kind of conversations

(01:15:53):
that are being had right now.
That um, God, I pray you'd blessher writing.
Uh, I pray that um that youwould just inspire her um uh for
uh all that she's writing andworking on.
And uh um we just thank you forthis day.
We thank you for this chance tobe able to spend time with her
and just pray a blessing uponher life, her marriage, her
family, and uh just pray you'dprotect her and watch over um

(01:16:16):
her and all that she does.
And we pray this in Jesus' nameand your promise as we stand.
Amen.
Thank you for listening to theAct One podcast, celebrating
over 20 years as the premiertraining program for Christians
in Hollywood.
Act One is a Christian communityof entertainment industry
professionals who train andequip storytellers to create
works of truth, goodness, andbeauty.

(01:16:37):
The Act One program is adivision of Master Media
International.
To financially support themission of Act One or to learn
more about our programs, visitus online at Act One
Program.com.
And to learn more about the workof Master Media, go to
mastermedia.com.