Writer/Director Nathan Scoggins

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_04 (00:02):
But I do think that you have to have this gut check
all the time of where does yourheart really lie?
You know, Jesus says where yourtreasure is, then your heart is
also.
Is your is your treasure incareer success?
Is your treasure in getting ajob on a studio?
Is your treasure in all theseother things?
Because if that's it, it's gonnafade.
And the cost to your family isnot a cost to make.

James Duke (00:35):
This is the Act One Podcast.
I'm your host, James Duke.
Thanks for listening.
Please don't forget to subscribeto the podcast and leave us a
good review.
My guest today iswriter-director Nathan Scottins.
Nathan's latest film, WhatRemains, tells the story of a
small town pastor who is forcedto reckon with an act of
forgiveness when the convict heforgave for murdering his wife

(00:58):
returns to town five years laterwhile the town sheriff
investigates another murder thatmay be related.
The film is in select theatersand on demand beginning December
2nd, so please be sure to checkit out.
Some of Nathan's other creditsinclude The Least of These, a
film I helped produce, which wasreleased in 2011 by Universal

(01:20):
and stars Isaiah Washington andOscar nominee Robert Logia.
Nathan's other credits includethe TV movie The Perfect Summer,
starring Eric Roberts, and theindependent feature film
Redline.
He also recently directed twoepisodes of an upcoming
television series for SonyAffirm to premiere in 2023.
Nathan is one of my closestfriends in the world and he has

(01:42):
a lot of great insight to share.
I hope you enjoy.
Nathan Scoggins, welcome to theAct One programs.
Good to see you, buddy.

SPEAKER_04 (01:51):
Good to see you too.
Thanks for having me.

James Duke (02:00):
Uh in the process of you making this uh film that we
wanted to talk about today.
So I'm excited because first ofall, we want to let people know
right out of the gate that uhwhen they hear this podcast,
that they can go out and see thefilm.
So just people will be able toget this podcast right away.
So can you just tell everyoneright now um when will they be

(02:24):
able to watch the film?
Where will they be able to goand see it?
How can they get access to yourfilm?
What remains?

SPEAKER_04 (02:30):
Sure.
So we are um we are available intheaters and on demand starting
December 2nd.
Uh so we're doing a day and daterelease.
So we are going to be um we'rescreening in 23 or 24 markets
around the country.
Uh, we just got word today thatuh they're adding some more
markets for us, which isfantastic.
We're starting with five marketson December 2nd, uh, LA, New

(02:53):
York, San Francisco, Florida,and Rhode Island, and Texas.
And then we are expanding onDecember 8th to other markets,
Massachusetts and Maine, and allthat kind of stuff.
In addition to the theaters thatwe're available in, however,
we're also available on iTunes,we'll be available on Amazon
Prime, we're gonna be availableon demand.
So that's like Comcast and anddifferent cable services.

(03:14):
So we're available uh in anumber of different places.

James Duke (03:17):
Um and that's all and that's all on uh so the
streaming um will be availableat the same time as the theater.

SPEAKER_04 (03:25):
No, streaming is a separate deal.

James Duke (03:28):
Or sorry, not streaming, but what you but the
on demand that's all yeah,December 2nd.

SPEAKER_04 (03:33):
Yeah, December 2nd for for on demand streaming.
Uh, we have a separate deal forstreaming that uh we have, but
we are not announcing yet, dueto our distributor uh wanting us
to hold off on that.
So we're gonna announce thatseparately, but uh but yeah,
we're available on demand sorry,December 2nd.

James Duke (03:48):
Okay, so this weekend, December 2nd, they can
go out and hear if you're ifyou're hearing this the week
that it comes out, uh thisweekend, December 2nd.
And where can they go to wherecan they find if it's playing in
their area?
Is there a website?

SPEAKER_04 (04:03):
Um, there isn't a website per se.
We're announcing stuff for oursocial media so they can follow
what's what remains film uh atwhat remainsfilm on Instagram.
And uh we're we're rolling outour uh our theatrical locations
uh over the next uh couple ofdays.
So you know it's funny with withuh social media and all that
stuff, it's it's almost kind oflike like I think we're I think

(04:26):
someone's trying to build us awebsite, but I I don't tend to
go to websites for likeinformation anymore.
It's all social media.
So so somebody was like, well,build your website.
It's like okay, great.
Well you uh send information outby carrier pigeon as well.
Like I feel like it's you know,I just have I just have no idea.
I mean, I th I'm assuming thatlike Fandango and all that stuff
will have us, uh have us aswell.

James Duke (04:47):
So so yeah, so so there is no www dot backslash
semicolon dash.
Uh although it actually but it'swhat remains at what remains on
Instagram is the best way theycan uh they can find the
information.

SPEAKER_03 (05:03):
At what remains film.

James Duke (05:05):
At what remains film, sorry, got it at what
remains film on Instagram.
I'll I'll put it also.
Uh people listening, you canlook at the links that I'll
attach to this podcast as well.

SPEAKER_03 (05:14):
Thank you.

James Duke (05:15):
Um, very cool.
So that's I wanted to spend timetalking about this film.
Congratulations, my friend.
I have seen it.
Um uh I had the privilege ofseeing it at the world premiere
you premiere.

SPEAKER_04 (05:30):
You were there, you were there in your night
announcer voice.
Oh, here we here we are at thetheater, coming to the theater
now.
Oh, is the star of the movie,the big star of the film, Chris
Williams, ladies and gentlemen.
That's that was Jimmy just offin the corner uh announcing it
uh until the theater owner cameover and told him, Please stop.
There's there's no microphone.

James Duke (05:50):
Um we'll talk about a little bit of that whole kind
of fun night, that uh awesomefilm festival.
But um let's uh let's take a fewsteps back and let's just
introduce people a little bit topeople who don't already know
you.
Um so you're a you're a writer,director, producer, you've been
working in the business.
Um what got you started in uhfilmmaking?

(06:16):
Was it was it something that asa kid you just um uh you were
just obsessed with movies?
Was it was it something later inlife?
What got you started?
By the way, the funny thing iswith this conversation, Nathan
and I have been such closefriends for so long.
I already know the answer tothese questions.
I already know these questions.
So do I have to play like Idon't know the answer to these

(06:37):
questions?
But yeah, so Nathan, tell mytell my audience.
It says here Scoggins.
Is that am I pronouncing itright?

SPEAKER_03 (06:49):
Scoggins, is that what it is?

James Duke (06:52):
That's that's exactly right.

SPEAKER_04 (06:53):
This is but this is gonna be a three-hour podcast
that it's just gonna be you andme riffing.

James Duke (06:57):
Yeah, tell me, but seriously, tell our audience a
little bit about kind of wherewhere where you first kind of
maybe fell in love with film anddecided this is what I want to
do for a living.

SPEAKER_04 (07:09):
So um, so I grew up in Rhode Island, and uh Rhode
Island is a very small state.
Um, it's the state that you, youknow, if you if if if you were a
kid and you were like asleepwhile your parents were driving
along the east coast, you couldlike fall asleep in
Massachusetts, wake up inConnecticut, and you wouldn't
have missed anything.
Like Rhode Island is like it'slike the 45-minute pass-through

(07:30):
state.
And and that's not to diminishRhode Island at all.
It's just it's a small, it's asmall state.
It's a small, it's a small partof the country.
And and you know, growing up onRhode Island, uh if you said
that you wanted to go toHollywood, it was like saying
you want to go to Mars.
It just sounded kind of crazy,you know.
Um, but I had a sort of uniquechildhood.

(07:52):
I grew up homeschooled, and Igrew up homeschooled.
Um, I was really smart for myage, so I read a lot.
And and uh and I noticed thatthere was this thing that came
every week in the newspaper thattalked all about other movies.
And because I had readeverything else in the house,
except for my dad's systematictheology book, which to this day

(08:13):
I I have it uh somewhere, but Ihaven't read it.
I was like, what else can Iread?
And so I started reading the TVguide and I started reading
about all these movies and allthis kind of stuff.
And that was right around thedawn of the VCR age.
Um, and so my parents startedrenting a VCR and renting VHS
tapes.
And my parents started showingme, you know, I mean, I remember

(08:34):
my mom, I remember saying that Iwanted to watch like a Superman
movie.
And my mom was like, Well, ifyou're gonna watch Superman with
Gene Hackman, you should reallywatch Hoosiers with Gene
Hackman.
And so she made me watchHoosiers before I could watch
Superman 4 or whatever it was.
And and when my mom found outthat I loved Empire Strikes
Back, which was written by LarryKazden, she said, Oh, well, if
you really like Larry Kazden'smovies, you should watch The

(08:57):
Accidental Tourist.
I was 11, by the way, when thesethings were happening.
So so I had this, I so I hadthis, I had the chance to tell
Larry that a couple of years agoat an at an event, and he was
like, Your parents were weird.
I said, Yes, they were.
Um, but but I think, you know, Imean, like a lot of kids of a
certain age, you know, I grew upwith the Star Wars movies, but I

(09:19):
was aware of who George Lucaswas, and I was aware that he was
a writer, and and so I wasfascinated by that.
And so I started watching thesemovies, but paying attention to
who was writing them.
And so, you know, I was familiarwith George Lucas, I was
familiar with Steven Spielberg,I was familiar with some of
these writers and filmmakers,um, as I just kind of watched
movies.
I mean, we would rent movies allthe time from our local

(09:40):
blockbuster or whatever, everynight or every other night.
And so I just kind of startedimmersing myself in movies, but
still it sounded like, you know,that's not a thing for me to do.
But I did have this youththeater that I was involved with
where I got to be involved withplays.
And and this youth theater, um,you didn't just act in plays,
you wrote them, you directedthem, you produced them, you

(10:02):
were like the, you know, the thethe lighting person for them,
you were the concession seller,you were the usher.
It was this very immersivething.
And so I kind of got this senseuh from that theater that like
there were things that like likeyou could do this somehow, but
it it didn't seem like a viablething.
And so I went to college, um,but I went to college and I went

(10:24):
to a great school, WesleyUniversity in Middletown,
Connecticut, which had a greatfilm program.
And it was there that I reallyfell in love with movies, not
just as entertainment, but alsoas art.
I still remember watching TheSearchers.
And we had this, we had thisfilm print, I think, that we
that we screened of it, and itwas ju it just blew my mind um
in terms of what it was and whatit could do, and what John Ford

(10:47):
was doing with with his camera.
And so I just fell in love, andso I started gobbling up
whatever film classes I couldtake.
So taking classes on FrankBorsagi and taking classes on
documentaries and taking classeson the history of cinema and all
this stuff, I just was immersed.
Um and so it was college when Ireally fell in love with it.
And I happened to go, Wesleyhappened to be a place where a

(11:08):
number of very successful filmowners have graduated from.
Fleischer graduated fromWesleyan and Michael Bay and
Kiva Goldsman and Joss Whedonand Rick Nasita, and a number of
people, some of whom I've I'vesubsequently become friends
with.
Um and so it was just soWesleyan kind of was like the
next step for me in terms of umdiscovering the power of film.

(11:30):
And especially like I tookclasses on the war film, I took
classes on on genre films, and Ibecame aware of the the ways in
which film could say something.
You know, John Ford grapplingwith the history of the Western
and the genre of the Western andthe searchers, or or you know,
looking at unforgiven andlooking at the the way that that
it that it calls into questionthe tropes of the Western.

(11:52):
I just was fascinated.
I was fascinated with it notjust because of uh the cinematic
power, but the thematic power,the the the ways in which you
you can say something in a film,you can say something with
images that really matters.
And the and the idea, the purityof it as an art form, that it it
it's not just purely visualbecause it's not a painting,
it's not just purely audiobecause that's a radio show, but

(12:13):
it but incorporates music,performance, lighting, shot
choices, uh frame, like all thisstuff.
It just I just was blown awayand and and felt like oh, I want
to do that.
And because I went to Westlandand we had like Joss Whedon come
back and talk to us.
We had a Cuba Goldman come backand talk to us, who who met with
me when I was a young, uh, youngfilmmaker just moving out.

(12:33):
It felt accessible.
And I think that's one of thebiggest things is is a filmmaker
when it when you when you golike, oh, this is like
accessible to me, like I coulddo this.
Um, that became um that became,I think, the thing that really
lit lit the fuse was not justthat not just the power of Snow,
but the the accessibility of it.
That you can do this too.
Um, for me, that that was thatwas what really got me excited.

James Duke (12:56):
And your family uh this was something that they
supported?
Or was this something that uhdid you get, you know, maybe in
your home church or familymembers, did you get the did the
eyebrows cock up and people go,What?
You want to do what now?

SPEAKER_04 (13:11):
I mean, again, you know, I think I think there were
some people who didn'tunderstand it and didn't get it,
and especially because my dadwas a pastor.
And so, you know, when yourfather's a pastor and he's
engaged in overseas missionswork and when he's I you know, I
learned very early on, not everydad spends the weekend calling
the Turkey, the American embassyin Turkey to get, you know,

(13:32):
prisoners of conscience out ofprison.
You know, we didn't not everykid had like Arab sheiks coming
through and like stopping yourhouse for dinner.
Um, so again, I was a weird kidgrowing up.

James Duke (13:45):
And I think when you're kind of I had the I had
the iron sheik.
Uh I don't know if you rememberhim, the wrestler.
We we we had the iron sheik comethrough Memphis and he no, I'm
just kidding.
That was quite a must have beenquite a day for you uh when he
drove his drove through on hisway so by the way, by the way,
the the of the three people wholisten to this podcast, there's

(14:06):
only one of them that gets thatWWF reference.
That's it.
And we know who you are.

SPEAKER_04 (14:13):
Um no, so so so I think when you grow up in that
kind of environment, you know,my dad was my dad did a lot of
marriage counseling and all thatkind of stuff.
And so I think a lot of peoplekind of assumed that I would do
the same thing.
A lot of people assumed that Iwould go to Christian college,
or a lot of people assumed thatI would do do that because you
know, because I came to faithfrom a young age.
And so it wasn't outlandish toassume that.

(14:35):
But I I I don't know.
I think my mom in particular wasvery much supportive.
I remember there was a the thefirst and only time Rhode Island
hosted a screenwritingconference, the entire state
hosted a screenwritingconference, and it was like you
know, 150 bucks or whatever itwas.
And my mom said, I'm paying foryou and you're gonna go.
And and so like you got to hearlike Richard Walter from UCLA

(14:59):
come in and talk aboutfilmmaking and and and Peter
Farrelly and all this kind ofstuff.
And so I was very fortunate thatI did have a supportive family.
Um be because and they were kindof supportive, probably in ways
that a lot of other peopleprobably weren't.
Um, but my parents definitelywere, and and in fact, my dad
was was more supportive probablythan I was at a certain point.

(15:19):
You know, I I thought when I was20 and kind of went through an
existential crisis.
Um I thought, well, maybe Ishould go into the ministry,
maybe I should do that.
And my dad was adamant that Inot do that, um, unless someone
paid me a lot of money, which hesaid that'll never happen
because no one pays you a lot ofmoney to go into ministry.
Um, but but but but he wasadamant.
And then my father-in-law wasalso um uh very supportive of

(15:44):
me.
And it's kind of weird whenlike, you know, your
father-in-law is like, yeah, no,no, go away, go to Hollywood,
join the circus, you know, goahead, take my daughter, and uh
maybe you'll make some money.
So so I did.
The people closest to me wereincredibly supportive.
And then I and then I did havelike, you know, like my pastor
Steve Abbott was was verysupportive of me.
And I actually took up acollection when my wife and I

(16:04):
moved out to Hollywood at thechurch and and they gave us a
couple hundred bucks to help us,you know, with gas money and
things like that.
So so I yeah, I I did havepeople who were supportive of
me.
Um, probably, you know, goingagainst the grain of what people
maybe thought about Hollywood atthat time and maybe even now,
but I did.
I I was very for you know, if ifI hadn't had that, I don't know
if I would have done it.

James Duke (16:24):
That's interesting.
I you know, I the it'sfascinating to hear the story of
people who have been bothsupported and and not supported.
I it's a it's an interesting uhcase study, I think, to hear to
talk to people.
And because there's a um there'sa lot about um you know, coming
to work in Hollywood and comingto make movies that there is so

(16:47):
mythical and misunderstood, andthere's just a lot of and
there's also a lot of people whohave really been hurt, and and
and so there's there's there's alot of good reason for people to
have worry and concern.

SPEAKER_04 (17:01):
So uh well that's the thing, and I think I think
that I think that to your point,the concern is not unfounded,
right?
Right.
And and I think that theconcern, you know, even at a
basic level, like how are yougoing to make money doing this?
That is a very real, valid,legitimate concern that people
have.
And so, and so, you know, Ithink that a lot of times
people, you know, Christians getget stick for, well, you know,

(17:23):
Christians think of Hollywood asa Sodom Gomorrah and all the
kind of stuff.
And I suppose there's an aspectof that that's true, but it it's
just hard, you know, it's it'shard to step out in faith, it's
hard to do the risky thing.
We are risk averse as a people,certainly as we get older.
And so the fact that my parents,my dad was 50 and and said,
Yeah, go to Hollywood, you know,give it a shot.
My dad told me years later, hesaid, Yeah, I wasn't really sure

(17:44):
if you're actually gonna be ableto do it.
Um, you know, he said it wasn'tuntil I saw you on the set of
your first feature, at leastthese that you and I did
together.
He said, I saw you handlingyourself with like Isaiah
Washington and Robert Logan,these big guys, and I thought,
oh, maybe my son can do this.
Um, and and I was kind of like,I'm gee, I'm glad he didn't tell
me that earlier, Dad.
That would have been, you know,not great.

(18:05):
But you know, so I do think thatthere was an aspect of people
where it's like, hey, I we feelprotective and and and it's a
risky, it's hard, and it's true.
But I'm grateful that they umthat they let me be crazy and
stupid because I wouldn't behere probably without that
support.

James Duke (18:20):
So you are a for those who don't know you, you
are a bit of a uh what we wouldcall a Star Wars fan.
Um my wife is a Star Wars fan.
Um, I always joke that she getsfrustrated, she gets mad.
Anytime something with Star Warshappens, people send it to me.

(18:42):
They think I'm the big Star Warsfan.
And she's like, Why do they keepsending it to you?
I'm the Star Wars.
And I'm like, I know, I don't goaround telling people I'm the
big Star Wars fan, but I thinkit's my proximity to her and
you, like I'm between these twohuge Star Wars fans.
So people just think that I'm II I like Star Wars, but you and
her are diehard fans.

SPEAKER_04 (19:02):
Um, I'd love to be I'm not I'm not saying anything,
I'm just saying that I know howto speak a little bit of Shiri
Wook, which is of course thelanguage of the Wookiees.
Yeah, of course it is, you know,and then and then you have to
ask whether you could where youwhether you can also speak
Thakarin, which is another uhdialect of Wookiee, or whether
you could speak uh Shachik,which is another dialect of

(19:23):
Wookiee.
So I'm not saying that I'm anerd, I'm just saying, you know,
you know, based on whetherpeople can speak uh Shiri Wook
or not.

James Duke (19:31):
Yeah, I I'm listening I'm just glad you're
already married with kidsbecause that would be yeah, I
kept that I kept that on the DLuntil after I got married.

SPEAKER_04 (19:40):
Um and then my wife was like, You speak what now?

James Duke (19:43):
You speak what now?

SPEAKER_04 (19:45):
I'd let that slip um before we got married.
I I would not be married.

James Duke (19:50):
Um tell them your story, tell tell my audience
your story of you actually hadas a young man, you had an
encounter, if you will, withGeorge.

SPEAKER_04 (20:00):
I did.
I did.
I was not again our local TVguide.
You could write in and get likecontact info from people.
This is obviously the daysbefore the internet, the days
before IMDD and all this kind ofstuff.
And so I noticed that peoplewould write into the local TV
guide, and they would like theTV guide would tell them, like,

(20:23):
hey, if you want to write to Mr.
T, here's his address.
So I wrote into my localProvidence Journal TV guide and
said, Where can I write toGeorge Lucas?
I'd like to send a letter.
And so they sent me his email,his his mailing address.
And so I wrote a letter toGeorge Lucas.

(20:43):
I was nine years old.
And I wrote a letter to GeorgeLucas because I just started
doing youth theater and I wasinterested.
I wanted to let Mr.
Lucas know that I was availableto audition for a part in an
upcoming Star Wars film.
I uh I let him know that Ithought I would make I would
make a great young Han Solo.
And I distinctly rememberwriting in the letter, I

(21:04):
probably wouldn't make a greatLando Calvarino.
I literally wrote this in theletter.
And I get that this is an audiopodcast.
My the melanin in my skin, umlisteners, is not such that I
would play.

James Duke (21:18):
Oh, listen, they knew what color you were when
you first started talking aboutStar Wars.

SPEAKER_03 (21:22):
You didn't have to clarify that.

SPEAKER_04 (21:27):
Uh yes.
So I wrote I wrote this letterto George and said, uh, you're
welcome.
Uh look no further.
You found your new young HanSolo.
And so, you know, wouldn't youknow it?
Like six months later, I got aletter back from it's it's
literally sitting right here inmy office.
It was written by Judy Niles,the uh special uh events

(21:48):
coordinator for Lucasfilm.
Judy, if you're out there andyou're listening to this
podcast, thank you so much.
And she she passed along aletter from George Lucas where
where he said, where shereassured me, this is 1987, uh
at present there are no plansfor future Star Wars films.
They have not been precluded orcanceled.
There are simply no presentproduction plans.

(22:10):
But Mr.
Lucas, thanks you for yourinterest in auditioning for a
role in one of the upcomingfilms.
I literally have that burnedinto my brain because when I got
it, it was this manila envelopethat was so formal with like
cardboard backing.
And it was my autograph.
Uh he included an autograph forme as well as a couple of
pictures from the trilogy.

(22:30):
And I have it to this daysitting in my in my little
office here.
And uh, and and and again, itwas one of those things that
just it closed that gap a littlebit for a you know nine-year-old
kid that like Hollywood is likeyou can you can write to the
people and they'll they'll writeyou back sometimes and stuff
like that.
So I just thought that was thatwas cool.
So, yes, that is uh one of mypride.

(22:51):
If if the house burns down, I'mgrabbing my Christopher Reeve
autograph and my George Lucasautograph.
Wife and children, if there'stime.
I'm kidding.
I'm kidding.
Yeah, yeah.

James Duke (23:02):
I mean, you know, you've got plenty of kids.
What are you gonna do?

SPEAKER_04 (23:07):
I do, I do, I do the ability to make more.

James Duke (23:09):
That's right.
Um, you so when you came out inum I'm trying to remember when
you guys came out.
What was that 2003?

SPEAKER_04 (23:20):
2002, end of 2002, just the literally 20 years ago.

James Duke (23:24):
And you guys often you and your wife often uh refer
to me as your first friend inLos Angeles.
Yes.
How quickly, how soon had youguys been out here when we met?

SPEAKER_04 (23:34):
So you and I met.
We had been uh well, we we wentto Mosaic, uh the church that
we're all involved in together.
That was like the very firstweekend we were in LA.
We went to Mosaic and we met youthen.
And I you and I joke about this.
I'm still waiting for you toemail me back from that email
that I sent you when I ran intoyou and you said, Oh, yeah, you

(23:55):
know, and was like, Oh, you getfilm movies, you gotta talk to
Jimmy Duke, you gotta talk toJimmy Duke.
So I talked to Jimmy Duke, andJimmy Duke said, Send me an
email, let's keep in touch.
Never wrote me back.
I was lonely, cold.
It was you know, LA cold, so itwas 80 degrees, but still it was
like, I don't know anybody.

James Duke (24:14):
There's this man, Jimmy Duke, and uh and as I've
always told, and as I've alwayssaid to you, you should have
taken that personally.
You should have.

SPEAKER_04 (24:25):
Oh, I did, Jimmy.
Oh, I did.
Um, but we, you know, I think Ithink my wife, Kate and I knew
that coming out here from RhodeIsland, not really having
built-in community or anything,we had to just like really dive
in.
And I do think that's wheneverGive talks about surviving in
LA, it's like you gotta dive in,you gotta dive in community.
No one's waiting for you.
No one's sitting here going, oh,a script.

(24:47):
Gosh, we don't have any ofthose.
You know, everyone's everyone'sgot their lives, everyone's
busy, everyone's so you justhave to like dive in.
And so, you know, you were oneof those people who we just kind
of dove in with.
Scott Reynolds was another one.
Um, you know, there was thislike whole sort of Kevin Wilson
was another one.
There's this whole sort ofcommunity of people who we just

(25:07):
I don't know if crowbarring yourway in is like what we did, but
like you just kind of have toget involved.
And and so, yeah, you were youwere one of those people who,
you know, because we we alwaysrefer to them as Black Fridays
because we got out here andthere was a recession on at the
time, it was hard to find work.
Again, being out here as awriter, I just wrote a script

(25:29):
that was a quarter finalist inthe nickel fellowship, um, which
is like the preeminent sort offellowship out there for for
writers.
And, you know, and so I got it,and it meant that I got rejected
by really high quality places.
Um, and so, you know, I wasapplying for jobs and applying
for work and couldn't findanything.
And though those Fridays justgot so lonely so fast.

(25:53):
And it was uh Friday nightNovember that Kate and I called
you, and you were just watchingbasketball over at over at your
house in Pasadena at the time.
And we just called and said,Hey, can we come over and hang
out?
He said, Yeah, you know, youwere kind of like baffled that
we were calling you.
I was like, Yes, you may comeover to my house, that sure.

(26:14):
Um, and uh, but it was reallymeaningful for us to do that.
And and I think that's that isone of the things that, you
know, again, going back to whypeople go be careful moving out
to LA.
You know, the hardest thingabout LA is the loneliness.
Um, it's a very lonely city.
It's it's lonely when you'reunsuccessful because you feel
like you're never goinganywhere, but it can be lonely

(26:34):
when you're successful too,because a lot of people want to
be your friend when you're asuccess, but they don't
necessarily want to be yourfriend because they're happy for
you.
They kind of are hoping thatyou're like gold dust will shake
off on them and they can besuccessful too.
And so you you kind of neverknow where people are coming
from relationally.

(26:55):
So you you you try to find theseways to be um to have a true,
genuine relationship.
I still remember a Bible studyat your house where you talked
about that verse from Proverbsuh faithful are the wounds of a
friend, but an enemy multiplieskisses.
And we talked about what thatmeans in terms of LA is a place
where there's a lot of fakefriendships and a lot of people

(27:16):
who love everything.

SPEAKER_03 (27:17):
Oh, we love this and we love that.

SPEAKER_04 (27:19):
And it doesn't really mean anything.
Um, and it doesn't mean thatpeople aren't genuine, but I
think it means that people arejust kind of optimistic and want
to be positive, but but it meansthat they operate at a certain
level.
But when you want someone who'sgonna like be there for you in
the tough times, you've got tofind a different kind of friend,
a different kind of friendship.
And that's certainly what uhwhat you became for us, Jim.

James Duke (27:39):
I want to talk a little bit more about this.
You you and I have had lots ofconversations about just the
culture out here and raise, youknow, both of us are married
with kids, trying to raise kids,and this we have been not
trying, we have been raisingkids.
Although there are days when itfeels like trying.

(28:00):
Um but uh it you know, a lot ofwhat you were you're talking
about there, I often refer to asyou know, that you talk about
the California gold rush.
Yeah, and I feel like thisindustry is the California
fool's gold rush, where uhpeople rush out here to pursue
dreams, to pursue passions.
Some people think God's toldthem they're supposed to do, you

(28:23):
know, whatever.
And um, and then you cut to 20years later and they feel
unsuccessful, they feel lost,they've they they maybe had uh
family that they're they'redivorced, their kids are
estranged from them.
I mean, you and I have seen somereally bad stuff happen, just

(28:43):
lives just falling apart.
That um, you know, maybe theywould have fallen apart if they
went to Albuquerque too.
I don't know, but but it but butit's dried out in Albuquerque,
it's a very dry place, very drynow, yeah.
Um, but but they but it doesfeel like a unique thing that
happens here in Los Angeles,what you were talking about.

(29:05):
The way we're spread out here,the way people can can maybe
sometimes be disingenuous andand use people for not
necessarily for relationships,but but and yet, having said
that, there are so manywonderful things about being
here.
I mean, beautiful things,beautiful people, beautiful
churches, like so many wonderfulopportunities.

(29:27):
And so I'm curious because youdo you we've talked about this a
lot.
You try to help a lot of peoplewhen they're considering working
in the business.
What do you what is some of thekey advice that uh if if there
are people listening to thispodcast right now and they're
considering um maybe making amove out here?

(29:47):
Uh they're they're they'reinterested in working in film,
but they have questions.
They're like, can I can I can Ifind a spouse out there?
Can I raise kids out there?
Can I um will I will I quoteunquote lose my soul out there?
Can and then even on thepractical level, Nathan, do they
do they have to come here still?
Or could they go to Atlantainstead or someplace else?

(30:11):
What are what's your thoughtsand advice for those people?

SPEAKER_04 (30:14):
You know, I think the hard thing about LA is that
anything is possible, right?
Can can you can people do stuff?
Absolutely.
I mean, people, you know, peopleget discovered all the time,
people get people get found allthe time.
You know, all these things canhappen.
I think the hard thing is thatcertainly as Christians, we can
um confuse can with will, right?

(30:39):
And and and and and that'scertainly true not just of
Christians, but of but of allartists.
You know, I'm gonna I'm gonnamove out to California, I'm
gonna get discovered too,because um, because that's what
happens, you know.
And and it's interesting becauseI think a lot of times people
will come out to LA umcaptivated by the image, and

(31:00):
then 20 years later, they'reburned out on it and they hate
the image.
And the reality is that theimage never promised them
anything.
Like they are a victim of expecttheir own expectations.
And you know, my friend CoreyPollard, who produced What
Remains With Me, we talk aboutall the time the challenge of uh
living with expectation, uhliving with anticipation, but

(31:22):
not expectation.
And and how do you anticipatethat anything good could happen
while at the same time notexpecting it?
Because, you know, as as apastor once said to us, a lot of
times people resent a Jesus whonever promised them what they
wanted him to promise them.
And I think that's a danger.

(31:44):
And so I think that, you know, Ihave to work really hard to
manage my expectations all thetime of certain projects.
And sometimes that means that Ican come across as a little bit
cynical.
But as Ralph Winter, my myfriend and mentor, and and you
know, you know Ralph as well,um, has said, you know, I keep
my expectations low and I'mrarely disappointed.
And and I've had people wholike, you know, will come up to

(32:05):
you after a talk or whatever andsay, wow, you sound kind of
cynical.
It's like, not really.
I don't think I am.
I I've just been I've just beenburned enough times or have had
enough things not go that I kindof know what to expect of this.
And so I think that that ifyou're if you're you know, if
you're coming out here or ifyou're wanting to engage in a
creative endeavor at all, it'shard.

(32:25):
I mean, you know, we've allheard the the statistics that
there are more NBA players andprofessional athletes than there
are professionals working inHollywood.
Um, the odds are long.
The average writing career lastsfive years professionally.
Scott Derrickson says that thetown is designed to squeeze you
out.
You've got to find ways to stayin.

(32:45):
It takes a resilience.
There was a great book that Iread a couple years ago called
Talent is Overrated that talksabout how the true measure of
someone's professional successis not their talent, it's their
grit.
Are they willing to just stickit out and hold on?
And I think the thing that youand I have always thought
through is my grit for thisstronger than my grit for my

(33:07):
family, stronger than my gritfor my faith, stronger than my
grit for everything else.
And if that's the case, then mythen it's misplaced.
Then I think my grit ismisplaced.
And I think that a lot of peoplewill sometimes collapse because
their expectations outstrip thereality.
Or they had far more grit andtenacity for a job or a dream

(33:28):
than they had for the callingthat God had given them.
And maybe that sounds judgmentalfor friends of mine who who have
experienced professional successand have lost their families
along the way.
But that's just a math I'm notwilling to engage in.
Um, because I think that thatloss will ultimately is
ultimately a loss of longdivision.
And so I think that, you know,um yeah, LA is still the place

(33:53):
where relationships happen,connections happen.
I'm in the middle of promotingmy film that's coming out, and I
I've got a ton of people who Iknow in LA, hundreds of people
who I know in LA who are stillhere in LA and who are working
as executives, working asagents, working as as producers,
working as whatever.
Like there's just thisconcentration of people here
that makes it easier in otherplaces.

(34:14):
I know friends who live inAustin, I know friends who live
in in Atlanta, I know friendswho live in some of these other
places, and it's harder therebecause there isn't quite the
concentration in LA of that thatthere are in LA.
Um, so I do think that it'svaluable being here, at the very
least, getting started.
But I do think that you have tohave this gut check all the time
of where does your heart reallylie?

(34:34):
You know, Jesus says where yourtreasure is, there your heart is
also.
Is your is your treasure incareer success?
Is your treasure in um you knowgetting a job on a s at a
studio?
Is your treasure in all theseother things?
Because if that's it, it's gonnafade.
And and and and the cost to yourfamily is not a cost I'm willing

(34:57):
to make.

James Duke (34:59):
And it's a cost that doesn't get um counted or
measured enough.

SPEAKER_02 (35:04):
Yeah.

James Duke (35:05):
And um, I wish more people would just be upfront and
honest about the cost that umyou know, I've often said that
this town wars against healthyrelationships.
Yeah, that's true.
It's set up, it's designed, thethe the way in which the
industry and and even just LosAngeles, because you have the

(35:26):
industry, but then you also haveLos Angeles and how it's spread
out, it is, and it and it um bytheir natures, they they the way
things are set up in in both thebusiness and this town is a war
against healthy relationships,and you have to be so prepared
for that.
And that's one of the things wetry to communicate to people,

(35:46):
yeah, obviously, with Act One,and and but but it is uh it is
something that I wish we wouldtalk about more and just being
prepared, and and and and I usethese words, and I and I know
you do the same thing.
It's not about being cynical,it's about being honest, it's
about being transparent, and wejust want people to have all the

(36:06):
information, like have all theinformation so that you can um
um make make decisions based onall the all the correct data you
can possibly get your hands on,you know.

SPEAKER_04 (36:20):
Well, and I think I think you're absolutely right,
and and I think part of thereason why the town wars against
healthy relationships is becausewe are dealing with a game that
we are told is a zero-sum game,which is that you know, there's
a limited amount of success,there's a limited amount of
people who can experience thatsuccess, and part of this
reinforced by the business thatwe're in, right?

(36:41):
Studios only release so manymovies, um, distributors only
are going to release so manyfilms, there's only so much out
there that the marketplace canhandle in terms of content.
There's a limited amount ofdollars that people are going to
spend on content.
And so you're fighting andyou're competing with each other
for this stuff.
And so even believers can buyinto the competitive stuff.

(37:05):
And in order for me to, it's andand then there's also this like
competition for status, right?
Um, if I've made it, then I amsomebody.
And then you can kind of getinto this weird kind of
gatekeeping thing where it'slike, well, I'm in, but you're
not, and I want to make surethat you know that you're not
because I experienced success.
And and that can be dangerous.

(37:25):
And then there's this weird likeenvy thing that we can fall into
as believers where, you know,I'm envious because that thing
happened for them and this thingdidn't happen for me.
And I've had people call me oremail me and tell me, well, I
thought I was the one that wasgonna be working with Ralph
Winter, or I thought I was theone that this was gonna happen
to.
And and that becomes weird, youknow, because I I don't know how

(37:48):
to have that conversation.
I've always kind of looked atat, you know, if someone else
has success, it's like, oh,well, that's because like I
can't tell your story.
I I I couldn't write thatscript.
I couldn't do that thing.
That's that's not for me.
But but it's a constantchallenge, I think, to have to
remember that.
Like if someone's experiencingsomething, that's for them.
That's not for me.

(38:08):
So their success doesn't rob meof something because that that
wasn't for me.
And I think that when we have afaith that lets us know that
like God is ordering our steps,it means that I can go like,
that's for them, that's not forme.
And that's okay.
But I think that's hard.
And I think the world kind ofwars against that.
And then you also have the weirdkind of thing that happens where
it the the that Schadenfreudidea of uh, you know, I can only

(38:31):
be pleased when you are notdoing well.
Because that's a whole otherthing that is that happens in
town too, where it's like wetake delight in people's
failure, and you go, like, well,that's not great either.
So it is, there's all theseforces that I think you know
extend out of the business thatwe're in.
And it's not it's none of thatis meant to be a criticism of
the business.
I think it's it's just humannature.

(38:53):
Carl Gottlieb, uh, the writer ofJaws, once said that filmmaking
exposes all of your neuroses.
And I think that you're right.
There's something that happenswhen, you know, with the white
hot light of Hollywood thatexposes our brokenness.
And I and I think that's why,you know, just because I call
myself a Christian doesn't meanthat I get a pass.

(39:13):
I need to be constantly, likethe scripture says, working out
my salvation with fear andtrembling, because I don't want
to be that person who is enviousof someone else's success.
I want to be able to be excitedfor someone else's success.
I think that's something thatyou do really well, Jimmy, um,
is be excited for your friend'ssuccess.
I don't want to be that personthat takes joy when someone is
falling.

(39:33):
Um, I don't, you know, I don'twant to be that person that's
wondering why I didn't getwhatever, you know, and and and
so I think that yeah, all thosethings war on us.
And I think that's why we need asavior.
That's why we need community,that's why we need faith.

James Duke (39:47):
That's good.
That's really good.
Yeah, I always say when you whenyou hear good news from a person
that you love, from a friend, afamily, someone you love, and
your emotional state.
It either it either fills uplike a balloon and you become
elated for the person, or youdeflate.

(40:08):
And and based on what happenswhen you first initially hear
the news, you better check yourheart.
You know, like you need to behonest and cognizant of the fact
that, okay, wait a second, myheart didn't fill up and I
didn't it with elation.
Instead, it deflated.
Why?
What is it?

(40:29):
What am I why am I not happy forsomeone who I clearly should be
happy for?
And that's something that Ithink as artists, um, we have to
be careful of.
We have to constantly kind ofcheck our check our spirits with
those things.
We have to be uh cognizant ofthe fact that that we you know
we can we can be the very thingsthat we are saying other people

(40:50):
are struggling with.
It's like these are ourstruggles too, and we got to be
aware of those things.

SPEAKER_04 (40:54):
Well, and I think I think too, you know, it's just
being honest, right?
Like I, you know, my my my dearfriend Tobias Oconis had two
movies open within six weeks ofeach other a couple of years
ago, uh Five Feet Apart andCurse of La Lorona.
And and and both of those werewere in theaters.
And then Grant Nieoporti, whoyou know you know as well, had
his movie The Breakthrough, thatcame out in movie theaters as

(41:16):
well.
I went to all those movies, youknow, in the movie theaters to
support my friends.
I was so excited for them and sohappy for them because this this
business is so hard.
Like like Derrickson says, itsqueezes you out.
You gotta find a way to stay in.
And and if you can stay in, andespecially if you are someone
who has your life centered andwho is able to navigate this

(41:39):
without losing your mind, it'slike you want to affirm that.
And so I'm I'm excited for youknow, my friends Grant and
Tobias and and you know, andother guys that I know, Mark
Freiberger and and yourself, andwhenever any of us kind of have
something good happen, KevinWilson, you know, it's like you
want to be excited for thoseguys because it's hard, man.

(41:59):
It is it's a hard slog.
Yeah.
Um, you are I think very unlessthe movies are terrible.
If the movies are terrible, likeyou shouldn't be excited for
that.
We shouldn't what you gonna do.

James Duke (42:16):
It is what it is.
What are you gonna do?
Uh okay, so you you are someonewho I've always admired in your
ability to um um well, I wouldcall you a discipler, Nathan.
You are someone who you are verygood in taking time with people

(42:39):
to build them up, edify them,challenge them, encourage them.
And I I want to talk a littlebit about that.
Um being out here working in thebusiness, um, the ups and downs
that uh you've had, um, tryingto live life as authentically as

(43:01):
possible with other people andencouraging them.
I'm just curious, Nathan.
Uh, let's let's look a littlebit at a glimpse into kind of
your spiritual life.
And um, because I know itactually connects to your
creative journey.
Um what how do you um how do youfill your days?
I mean, you are you'reincredibly busy, you have a wife

(43:24):
and kids, as we mentionedearlier, a beautiful family, um,
and you do a lot of different umprojects, you got a lot of stuff
going on, and you're investingin people constantly.
So, what does a day look likefor you in terms of when you are
down?
Um uh how do you pull yourselfback up?

(43:46):
Um, what does time with God looklike for you?
I'm just curious for theaudience.
Um as you go out and pouryourself out into other people,
um, what do you pour and how howdo you allow yourself to be
poured into so that you can bean instrument of grace and love
and truth to other people?

SPEAKER_04 (44:10):
Jimmy, I I take a lot of solace in the music of
you too, just constant immersionin Bono's words and music.
Just that's just where it that'sjust where it flows, man.
It's just I'm I'm but the vesselfor Bono's music.
It's it's incredible.

James Duke (44:27):
Um by the way, they they also know what the melon
melon, the color of your skin isnow.

SPEAKER_04 (44:37):
It's a it's a giveaway.
It's a bit of a giveaway.
It's a bit of a giveaway.
Um, you know, I heard a reallygood talk shortly after my wife
and I moved to LA.
I've told you the story before,about the word submission.
And and the word submission hasalways been used, or growing up,
I heard it used a lot as a as aweapon against wives.

(45:01):
And and uh the talk was allabout how the word submission
means to come under a mission.
And the challenge in the talkwas for husbands to have a
mission big enough for otherpeople to come under.
And and I was really convicted,it was that opening weekend in
LA, and I was really convictedthat if if I was here just to

(45:24):
pursue my own filmmaking dreams,it was not a big enough mission.
Um, right around that same time,I read uh um Rick Warren's book,
Purpose Driven Life, where hestarts starts the book and says
it's not about you.
It's a it's a line that's echoedin Scott Darkson's movie, Doctor
Strange.
It's not about you.
And and I think that part of howI've been able to kind of endure

(45:48):
the slings and narrows, the upsand downs of life in Hollywood
for 20 years, is because of whatyou're saying.
Kate and I have have really saidwe want to invest in people.
We want to invest in otherpeople.
Because at the end of the day,you know, if my value and my
worth is driven by whether aproject got a green light, or

(46:10):
whether a project got funded, orwhether a check came in or
whatever it is, it's not gonnabe enough.
Like that's that's a that'sthat's a that's a that's just an
empty hole.
And so, you know, I wasdiscipled by people all through
my high school and collegeyears.
I started discipling people inmy high school and college
years.
So pouring out into people andinvesting people, I think

(46:30):
there's a little bit of, I don'twant to say that it's selfish,
but it's a it's a bit of arelease valve in that in that
I've got somewhere else that Ican expend my energy.
Um because this is just notenough.
So, so yeah, I've been reallypassionate about mentoring,
whether it's you know uhteaching at APU as I've done

(46:50):
over the years, teaching at GPCatholic where I've taught over
the years, uh speaking at ActOne, uh, mentoring, you know, uh
uh people coming into townthrough who find me through
different ways or whatever.
Kate and I have just really uhsaid that matters to us.
We've we've had you know peoplewho are assistants at agencies
who are going through a hardtime sleeping our house because
they they can't go home forwhatever reason.

(47:14):
And so I think that that we havetried to create a place where we
can be agents of grace for otherpeople.
And and I do think that thatmatters because if all you're
doing is just chasing work, youknow, that that's just not
enough.
You know, our work is gonna ourwork is gonna burn someday, you

(47:35):
know.
Like Ralph says, you know,someday it's all gonna burn, and
what we're gonna have is thequality of our relationships.
And and the quality of ourrelationships, not just in terms
of like who is with us rightnow, but um but also um you
know, who's coming behind you,you know, that that that that
old that old mentoring thatevery every every person should

(47:56):
have a Paul, a Barnabas, and aTimothy, right?
Someone who's going ahead ofthem, who can who can teach
them, uh someone who who'swalking beside them, who's a
friend who they can share sortof stuff with, and then Tim
Timothy, someone behind you thatyou are investing in.
And so I I'm very fortunate.
I've been into place, I've beenput into places where I have a

(48:16):
lot of Timothy's.
And and somebody just a yearago, Kate and I were having
dinner with a young couple, andthey said, you know, uh, they
were leaving, and they said,Hey, we just want to know that
we really appreciate your timebecause you have Ralph Winter.
Uh, we have you.
And that was really meaningfulbecause I don't feel like I'm
worthy of that comparison.

(48:37):
I'm, you know, Ralph is somebodywhose shoes I would gladly tie
and have tied uh in ametaphorical way.
Um, but I do think that there isa role that we all play in in
reproductive leadership and indiscipleship and in um in being
a lynx in the chain.
I still remember you praying,you know, the night that we
started a small group in yourhouse.
You said we're we're just a linkin a chain going back to a room

(49:00):
of 12 people who believe theycould change the world 2,000
years ago.
And that's and so I think thatthat's what it is.
You know, it's like, you know,when Paul says to Timothy,
Timothy, what you have, what Ihave taught you, teach to
faithful men who will then teachit.
You know, and and that's where alot of my that is where a lot of
my sense of worth comes from, mysense of of validation comes

(49:22):
from knowing that I am part of alegacy and I need to pay that
legacy forward.

James Duke (49:28):
Gosh, I love it when you quote me.
I sound so wise.
I don't remember any of thisstuff.
That's one of the things I youare you are the I always joke,
like my wife is the memory ofour family, and you are the
memory of our relationship.
You have all these memories ofthings.
Um, one of them is um one of thegreatest highlights of my life

(49:51):
was when you and I sat down oneday and we decided to make a
movie together.
Yes.
And this was now, was this whenthis is where I need your help
memory-wise.
Now, was this in 2006?
When did we first talk aboutmaking the least of these?

SPEAKER_04 (50:07):
We talked about it at Christmas time 2005.
I had just flown back fromTampa.
Uh, at the end of that year, Ihad just been in uh Georgia for
two weeks on a writingfellowship.
It's the first time that someonehad optioned a script of mine.
And so I had been there for twoweeks working with that group.
And then I went to Tampa andwith my father-in-law, and my

(50:29):
father and and I the script ofmine originally called Parker,
it became then it be called wascalled at Allentide and it had
gone through all these things.
Um, and then eventually, youknow, it had gotten enough
attention that my father-in-lawsaid, 'What do you, what's your
big dream for 2006?' I said, Iwant to make a movie, I want to
make a feature.
And he said, Well, do you wantto meet some people who could

(50:50):
make that happen?
I said, Yes.
And so he introduced me to somewell-to-do people that he knew
that were looking to invest infilms.
And then I flew back from that.
We went to Disneyland togetherwith our wives.
And you and I spent the wholeday uh talking about the script
and talking about theopportunity and talking about
what we would do and talkingabout how we would do it.
And I distinctly rememberbecause we were in the Mr.

(51:12):
Toad ride, and somebody in frontof us handed us his card because
he was an actor.
And he said, You guys reallysound like you're going to do
this.
I would love to be a part ofthis.
Here's my card.
And I went only at Disneyland.

James Duke (51:30):
And that guy's name was Isaiah Washington.

SPEAKER_04 (51:35):
And so, yeah, and so it was it was end of 2005.
It took us a little longer thanwe had hoped, um, because it
took us a little while longerthan we hoped to to put the
money together.
But yeah, you know, a year and ahalf after we said we were gonna
make a movie together, we didit.
We were we were standing on theset of the least of these.
And that was uh that was apretty remarkable, uh, that was
a pretty remarkable, prettyremarkable thing.

James Duke (51:58):
It was.
And and you know what's funabout it, Nathan, is I I
remember you and I havingconversations like we would go
to some of these events inHollywood and we would meet
Byola Media Conference.
Yeah, and we would meet peoplewho um, God bless them, you
know, they they were unhappy,you know, some people.

(52:23):
I'm gonna tell my, you know,most, but but we you and I we we
would meet these some of theseindividuals, they were unhappy
and they were maybe older, andso they were grumpy, and and and
they would always talk about umwhat they wanted to do because
they never they never actuallymade anything.

(52:43):
And I remember you and I on morethan one occasion looking at
each other, and we said, youknow what we don't want to be?
We don't want to be those guyswhere we're we're looking back
on our life and we're sayingwoulda, shoulda, coulda.
And and I remember that beingone of the driving forces for us
to uh to make the least of thesewas we wanted to if if we if we

(53:05):
could, we should.
That was kind of what we wantedto do.

SPEAKER_04 (53:08):
Remember how young we were, Jimmy?
I was 27, I think, and uh and wealready felt like the the clock
was ticking.
Yep.
Um and so you know, I rememberbeing like 29 on the set of
least of these, and and andfeeling like I I caught up to
myself.
And and and and and that's whereyou know I do think that there

(53:29):
is a value in living in LA, andthat when there are people
around you getting after it,yep, there is that feeling of
like, okay, I here I gotta go,like I gotta keep doing this,
you know?

James Duke (53:40):
And that is the number one thing that people who
move away tell me.
Yeah, the number one thing thatcreatives who who live in Los
Angeles and then leave, thenumber one thing they always say
is they miss, they miss thehustle, they miss the scuttle
butt, they miss all the the hey,what are you doing?
What are you working on?
Pushing people, you know, thatthe pushing and the prodding uh

(54:02):
that you get by living uh outhere.

SPEAKER_04 (54:04):
Well, it's the same, it's like the same thing in film
school.
I tell this to to my filmstudents, it's like, guys, you
don't understand you've gotaccess to everything.
Once you leave here, it getsharder to do all of this.
So do it all now so that andthen let it catapult you out of
here.
Because once you get out, it'sharder.
And so I do think that that thatthat you know being in LA, like

(54:26):
it just kind of makes you, youknow, because I think I think
that there is this thing, right?
You we Christians talk aboutthis, be a person of your word.
And that's not just a Christianthing, but but I do think that
there is this idea, certainlyfrom our faith, if you believe
it, speak it and and then beheld accountable to it.
And so, you know, for you andme, we had made short films
together, we had done all thisstuff, you know, it it we were

(54:49):
able to activate each other interms of our dreams because we
were in a place where you coulddo it.
And and then being able to, youknow, have Ralph's help, to be
able to go over to the Fox slotevery day, to be able to do our
casting, like it just there'sjust resources that are here.
Um, and and I and that's one ofkind of one of the big things

(55:10):
that I always tell people whenpeople say, like, what's your
advice for for you know,whatever?
It's like start talking aboutwhat you're gonna do.
Like commit to do it, you know,commit to do it.
And a lot of people want to playit safe.
And I do think there's somethingabout like you know, like
Indiana Jones, take that stepbecause you know, but in LA,

(55:30):
it's a little easier to takethat step than if you're in
rural West Virginia orsomething.
Like it's just it's harder.
So I do think that that stop,you know, that the that a lot of
us as creatives need to stoptalking about what we're gonna
do someday and just start doingit, you know.
And and you and I did.
We we we started plotting andplanning and pulling together
our resource and and the roadrose up to meet us.

(55:53):
Um, and I think that that that'syou know, that if the road
doesn't rise up to meet you,that's okay too.
Like it's okay to step out offaith and go, nope, this isn't
for me.
And that's okay, you know, but Ithink for us it was very um, I
think that was very, you know,instructive for us to say to to

(56:14):
see that.
I can.
We can and and we will.

James Duke (56:20):
And the immortal words of Yoda, do or do not,
there is no try.
And that is something that Ithink a lot of creatives we get
paralyzed by fear or doubt orinsecurities and things like
that.
And the best solution tocreative paralysis is to just do

(56:41):
something, just do it, justwrite the script, just go out
with your friends and shoot themovie, just go out and send that
email.
What whatever it is, like youyou you've got to correct, um,
or or the only way you canreally correct that is not just
to sit in it and stew in it, butbut to actually just do

(57:04):
something.
And you might fail, and youprobably will fail, and you'll
probably fail miserably, and butyou have to do something.
And as a creative, we have tofind a way to exercise our
creativity, and you don't dothat by just sitting around
thinking about it in your mind.
You have to actually dosomething, right?

SPEAKER_04 (57:23):
Yeah, I think you know, a a quote that comes to
mind is um Johan Wolfgang von isit pronounced Goethe?
I'm not sure.
All right, now you're justmaking things up.
G-O-E-T-A-G.
He says, um whatever youwhatever you can do or dream you
can begin it.
Boldness has genius, power, andmagic in it.

(57:48):
And there's something to that,like that kind of boldness of of
going, I can do this and I'mgoing to.
Like there's there's power inthat.
And and maybe, you know, my mydad always said, if you're gonna
fail, fail big and learneverything you can from it.
Yeah.
And so I think that you know,our attitude with least of

(58:10):
these, I mean, gosh, least ofthese was was such a learning
experience for me in so manyways.
And I learned about privateplacement memorandums and and
how to structure investmentdeals and how to put together
business plans.
And you know, I'm still learningstuff even now with what
remains, in terms of, you know,now we're we're publicizing the
movie, we're we're getting theword out, or working with

(58:31):
publicists, and we're craftingthe narrative of the film.
It's like I'm learning so much.
Um, but I learned so much onthat first film that was just so
instructive and informative.
And and I would not have learnedit if you and I had not shook
shaken hands at Disneyland andsaid, let's go.

James Duke (58:48):
Oh, I remember negotiating contracts about
double bangers and and and uhand you know ADR days.
And I remember being on thephone, uh, literally getting
chewed out by uh one of the topPR people and having to talk to
them and tell them to, and I waschewing them out.
I mean, it was just you know,like there's just things you

(59:10):
don't you don't get taught untilyou actually just jump into the
water and actually do it.
Like you, for instance, sopeople don't okay.
So we made this little filmcalled The Least of These.
It was Nathan and I's attempt tomake it available on Amazon.
We attempted to make a smallindependent film, and the goal
was to you know keep it on thedown low.

(59:33):
It's a small independent film.
We're trying to run and done andget this thing done.
And and lo and behold, Nathan.
Um this little film, all of asudden, we find ourselves in
entertainment weekly.
We find ourselves in, I think itwas TV back then that TV Guide
still existed.
I think TV guide, all theseother Entertainment Tonight was

(59:54):
there.
Yeah.
Entertainment tonight came toour set, folks.
Entertainment tonight did a Ithink from our set this little
teeny tiny little movie.
Yeah.
And but there was a reason forthat.
You want to tell the story aboutthe star of the film and what
happened there just briefly?

SPEAKER_04 (01:00:10):
Yeah, so it's it's day three of our movie.
It's Thursday, I think maybe onJune 7th, around 6.10 p.m.
And uh our lead actor, IsaiahWashington, I'm in the middle of
uh remember this, Jimmy?
We're in the middle of a shot.
We were we were shooting at umRebecca Verstratten McSperience
house, and we were shooting thisscene, and uh he texted me at 6

(01:00:35):
10, Isaiah did and said, Um,I've just been fired from Gray's
Anatomy.
Uh, so get ready, everyone willbe coming for us.

James Duke (01:00:46):
And uh now, now, now hang on, let me back that up
though, because you got thattext after he told me, because I
was standing outside the roomwhen he walked out after getting
off the phone with ShondaRhimes, where Shonda Rhimes
fired him.
And he literally walks out ofthe room and he goes, Well, I

(01:01:06):
just got fired.
I mean, I was I just looked athim like, I'm sorry, what?

SPEAKER_04 (01:01:12):
Well, and the irony of that was that we had just
shot a scene in that movie wherehe got fired.
And literally his last shot thatday was him walking out the back
of Rebecca's house into thedarkness.
And uh suddenly I was sittingthere going, Well, life has just

(01:01:32):
imitated art.

Yes, life is just imitated art.
And what was funny about so hewarned us, yeah, he gave us a
little bit of a heads up that wemight now, of course, because
we're two noobs, green as youknow, the grass, we we didn't
fully understand what this meantuntil we show up the next
morning.
I don't know, around 6 a.m., 630, 7 a.m., whenever it was we

(01:01:55):
were showing up to set.
And I kid you not, I'm gonnaguess, I'm bad at guessing
numbers, but would you say therewas probably about a hundred
paparazzi out there?
Yeah, yeah, right.

SPEAKER_04 (01:02:05):
Yep, yeah.
We I I rolled up and thoughtthere's a lot more people
working on our movie today thanthere was yesterday.
And it was it was my assistanton the show, Angela, who said, I
think that's paparazzi.

SPEAKER_02 (01:02:17):
I was like, Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_04 (01:02:18):
I was still kind of like naive.
And then I remembered that daybecause you got on the radio and
said, No one talks to them butme.
And uh, and it was very clearbecause they were, I mean, they
were they remember they got theygot into like our our costume
trailer, like they were talkingto like to Heather, our costume
person, and all this kind ofstuff.
Like it was it was just kind ofcrazy what was happening.

(01:02:41):
And you know, I remember Isaiahwas was on the set with Allison
and he just waved at him and andhe put his arm around Allison,
like, here's my buddy, and andyeah, it was you know, for me as
a first-time director, right?
You know, you're you're and forthe two of us on that show
together, we're we're trying tomanage this little over a
million dollar project, andyou're cutting checks by hand uh

(01:03:03):
every every day.
And and uh and and you know, andI'm just trying to, you know,
I'm a first-time filmmaker, youknow, I've made some short
films, it's my first feature.
And so you've got we've got allthese crew guys who are like,
you know, this was a little bitmore money than unemployment,
but they're all coming to usfrom like Indiana Jones and all
this stuff.
And and I'm just feeling thepressure of like making our day

(01:03:25):
and trying to keep everybody inin sync.
And then suddenly you've got allthese paparazzi calls, you know,
that day entertainment weeklycalled.
Like suddenly we had to take a45-minute break because
Entertainment Weekly called andwe had to, you know, let Isaiah
talk to Entertainment Weekly.
Like it was just, you know, tobe 29 and be in that kind of a
pressure, it was like, this isbizarre.
Like we got we got thrown in thedeep end, you know, when um

(01:03:48):
Kevin, what's his name fromEntertainment Weekly was on the
set, and it was just like, whatis happening right now?

So yeah, it was it was nuts.
It was a it was an it was anodd, it was an odd, odd thing.
It's something that we knew atthe time that this didn't
happen, you know, to to moviesour size in terms of the kind of
publicity and press that we weregetting.
Um, but um, but even now, whenyou look back in hindsight, that

(01:04:15):
much more.
It's just insane, it's justinsane to think the kind of
publicity that we got uh on onthat.
And obviously it was because ofthe controversial nature of
everyone.
You can Google people can Googlewhat happened, the controversial
nature of him getting fired fromfrom uh Gray's Anatomy.
But um the the uh so you knowthis is the thing, right?

SPEAKER_04 (01:04:35):
This is this is the thing is that you know, people
people a lot of times will lookat a life in Hollywood or a
career in Hollywood and go,well, how hard can it be?
You know, how hard can it be toshow up on a set and call action
and cut?
How hard can it be to be awriter and write, you know, a
Batman movie?
And the thing is, is that it'sis that you know, as as and I

(01:04:56):
quote him several times on this,um Derrickson says talent is
like the minimum getting intoHollywood.
It's being able to deal with allthis other stuff that is where
the real challenge lies, youknow, and it and look, it's
already hard to competently tella story with a camera.
It's already hard to competentlytell a story in a script.

(01:05:18):
But like this is part of why LAis so hard, is that there's all
this other stuff.
And you never know whichrelationship is gonna be the one
that like you don't manage welland it's gonna bite you in the
butt, or you know, when are yougonna do something that's like
stupid and people can't forgiveit?
Like it's just all this otherstuff is what makes it hard.
And and and people don't talkabout that.
Like the endurance is not justbeing able to manage the

(01:05:39):
creativity, it's being able todeal with what happens when the
paparazzi show up.
What happens, you know, what youknow, what happens when you know
something befalls someone inyour crew or your cast, you
know, um, you know, even withwhat remains.
Like what happens when you wakeup one day and your elite
actress isn't there anymore?

(01:05:59):
Like, like all these thingsbecome part of the process that
people don't talk about, butthat is is a huge part of what's
uh gonna allow you to stay in ornot.

Yeah, yep, you know.
Well, I think that's a goodsegue over to um what remains.
So you um so take us back um acouple of years ago.
Well, I guess you had this idea.
So you had the idea for whatremains uh for a while.
Um do you remember when um whenyou finally kind of just got it

(01:06:34):
out on on the page?
Um when when did you when didyou get that first uh first
version of the script uh done,would you say?

SPEAKER_04 (01:06:44):
Well, it's funny, you know, David, you know, you
and I have talked about this.
David People, the whole story ofDavid People's writing
Unforgiven, the fact that hewrote it and sold it to Clint
Eastwood in 1982, and Clintsaid, I'm not old enough to tell
this story yet.
And 10 years later he decidedthat he was ready.
I do think that there arestories that maybe we want to
tell that we don't have the kento tell yet, that we don't have

(01:07:05):
the ability, that we're notwe're not the artist that we
need to be to tell that storyyet.
And Knight Shameland talkedabout that with the Sixth Sense
that he had started writing theSixth Sense a couple years
before, and he just was not thestoryteller he needed to be.
And so with what remains, I gotthe story idea for what remains
in 2006.
I had um Kate and I had a fightin our little apartment in

(01:07:26):
Glendale, and I was upstairskind of you know cooling off
from the fight or whatever, andI had to go out and get
something from the store becausewe're gonna have like Bible
study that night or something.
And I thought, what would happenif I left tonight and the door
didn't lock and someone camehome and and murdered my wife?

(01:07:46):
Like what what would I feel?
You know, especially having justhad this conflict with her, like
what what how how horrible wouldI would I feel?
And and so I kind of took thatidea and I ruminated on it a
little bit.
And I remember at Sunday, I wastalking with somebody about it
very briefly and thinking, youknow, there had been a couple

(01:08:07):
stories in the press recently oflike people forgiving people at
like funerals and and whateverwho had done horrible things.
And I remember thinking, like,is there a movie in that?
And and I but I but I knew thatI wanted the movie to start with
that.
And and I think that you know, alot of times the failures of of
faith-based movies maybe is thatthey kind of end just you know,

(01:08:30):
to quote Sean Connery from LastCrusade, just when it's getting
interesting.
You know, the most interestingthing for me in a story is not
the religious epiphany of, oh, Ishould do this noble thing.
For me, the really interestingthing about a journey of faith
is what happens after you dothat noble thing.
And then you have to reconcilethat with the skin and bones

(01:08:50):
that you're still in.
And so I I distinctly remembertwo different times I tried to
sit down and write what remains.
And both times they wereterrible starts.
And I quit after like page 15.
And I just went, I am not thewriter I need to be yet.
And and I did, I just kind ofput it away in the back of my
brain.
The first time I tried was 2010,couldn't crack it.

(01:09:11):
I tried it again in 2014,couldn't crack it.
And then in 2018, I pitched aproject to the present of Warner
Brothers.
And this was, and this is kindof like an insight into like the
stupidity of the studio systemsometimes.
Um, my apologies to anyone fromthe studio system who might be
listening, I would love to workwith you.
Um, but uh great.

We lost that one podcast listener.
Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_04 (01:09:37):
We're down to two now.
My um my manager at the timecalled me and said, uh, Warner's
is taking pitches for thisparticular project.
I don't think they're gonna makethe movie, but I think you
should go in and have themeeting.
But you got to crack a thing.
And so I spent a month and ahalf cracking this pitch and and
really got it down to an art andlike went in and pitched,
pitched my heart out and pitchedthe president and you know, his

(01:10:00):
right-hand guy, got to the endand they said, Great story, well
told.
And I went, darn it.
Except I didn't say darn it andkept it in my brain.
But uh was like that's a badsign.
Because whenever you hear,whenever you go into a pitch, as
soon as somebody says well told,you you know it's death.
Like it's dead.
Like it's the worst complimentthey can pay you.
And so, but I, you know, but butbut but all you have is hope.

(01:10:23):
So my manager, you know, for thenext month called and and then
they they eventually said, uh,yeah, we're not making this
movie.
Um and and Jeff said, You'regoing with another writer.
He they said, No, no, we're justnot doing the project.
And this is like what studioswill do.
They'll like, you know, do thisthing, and then they like they
waste everybody's time, theywaste their own time, whatever.
And I was so frustrated.

(01:10:43):
And Kate said, What would youwrite if you didn't have to go
through that experience again?
What would you write that wasjust for you?
And I knew exactly what I wouldwrite.
And and and by that time, it hadbeen four or five years from the
last time I tried to crack whatremained.
It had been 10 years from when Ifirst had the germ of the idea.
And I sat down and it flowed outof me in six weeks.

(01:11:06):
Um, and first I pitched out to abunch of my friends, to Scott
Teams and Chris Riley and DeanBitaley, and my wife, and and
and and several, you know,Claire Sarah, and and they all
said, you should write thatstory.
And then I did, and I wrote it,and then I gave it to them all
again and said, uh, surely Ican't make this, right?

(01:11:26):
And they all said, Of course youshould.
Don't call me Shirley.
Um and and then I sent it to,and then I reached out to a
bunch of my friends.
I reached out to to Cory Pollardand I reached out to some other
friends and said, Would youwould you want to make a movie
with me?
And they all said yes.
And I and I I do think that'sanother reason why living in LA
is a good thing because you'rejust around people who can help

(01:11:49):
you do it and who can do thingsthat you can't, and who can help
you do things at a quality thatyou can't.
Corey Pollard is atop-of-the-line first television
first AD who wanted totransition into producing.
You know, um, Brandon Lapard,who I ultimately wasn't able to
work with on this one, but he'sa great DP.
I worked with him on a musicvideo that I did.
William Armstrong, who I wasn'table to work with on this one

(01:12:10):
ultimately, but he's a greatproduction designer.
Like you have all theseresources that can just kind of
help pull things in.
And so, you know, you know, andand one of the other reasons why
I think it's valuable to be inLA is that there's a there's
just an expectation of qualitythat people have, where people
know, you know, Corey knows thedifference between a good script
and a bad script.
Brandon knows the differencebetween a good script and a brad

(01:12:30):
bad script.
And so I asked my friends ifthey would come along the
journey with me, and they allsaid yes.
And and then I gave it to Ralph.
And Ralph read it over theChristmas holiday, and January
six uh January 2nd, we went overto his house.
Kate and I did have dinner withhim and his wife Judy, and we
had wine, a not altogetheruncommon experience for for the

(01:12:53):
four of us when we get together.
And at 10:30 that night, heasked me two questions about the
script and said, I'm in, I'llproduce this for you.
And then, and then, you know,Kellen Lutz was my first and
only choice for Troy because I'dknown Kellen for a long time and
I knew that Kellen would beright for it.
And and I sent it to Kellen andKellen said yes, and I was able

(01:13:15):
to say, Hey, I'm working withRalph on it.
And so that was sort of acreative uh barometer for him.
And then we, you know, we he andI got together at Sundance and
we talked about it some morewith Ralph.
And so it just kind ofsnowballed, but it but it it
yeah, it it came together veryquickly.
It was a hundred-page firstdraft that turned into an
80-page final draft.

(01:13:35):
And the only thing that reallychanged was that I took a bunch
of stuff out.
But it it it changed very littlefrom that first draft in in
October of 2018.

Wow.
So you find yourself connectingto uh some investors out of
Texas, and you find yourselfshooting it in Texas by the time
so so see 2018, January 2000.
Was it January 2018 or January2019?
I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_04 (01:14:04):
19.

19 was when Ralph said so January 2019, and then
you find yourself shooting whenwhen did you start when did you
start shooting?

SPEAKER_04 (01:14:12):
September of 2021.

Okay, so um, which you know, uh for people who are
listening to this podcast, thatI know I know people might
think, well, that's a coupleyears, that's like light speed
in this business.
Um, so you find yourselfshooting in Texas, and you you
come up with a reallyinteresting strategy because uh
you are um one of the thingsthat you do is you you teach uh

(01:14:35):
directing and filmmaking at atthis um small um Catholic school
in the San Diego area, um andyou came up with the idea of of
uh using the students and andand an alumni to talk a little
bit about that, kind of likeyour sh you guys' strategy of
how you wanted to shoot thisfilm in Texas.

SPEAKER_04 (01:14:56):
So, yeah, so a couple of pieces kind of came
together simultaneously.
You know, when my wife said,What would you write if you
didn't have to ask permission?
It was like, what would you loveto write?
And and this story came.
And then the next question veryeasily was, Well, who would you
love to work with?
And I do think that, you know, Ilike to lead relationally.

(01:15:17):
Uh, relational leadership isvery important to me.
It's hard on a film crew whereyou've got 60, 80 people, you
don't know them, you don't knowtheir in and outs, they don't
know you, you're trying tofigure each other out.
By the end of your timeshooting, you're just maybe
starting to get to know eachother, and you're doing it in
this pressure cooker environmentwhere you're not really getting
to know each other at your best.
A lot of times you're gettingeach other at your worst, and
you're trying to minimize,minimize that.

(01:15:39):
Um, so I knew that I that thatthat you know, Ralph had said on
least of these, he had said,cast as well behind the scenes
as you do in front of thecamera.
And so for me, it was reallyimportant that who I was
collaborating with was asimportant as the project on
which I was collaborating.
And because I've I've workeddown in San Diego with these

(01:15:59):
film students, it's like I knewhow hard they were working, I
know how dedicated they were,and I knew how hungry they were
and how eager they were to wantto work on a project.
Um there had been a trend abouta decade ago where a bunch of
film schools decided to makefeature films at the film
school.
Um, and and some colleges thatyou and I know had done it.

(01:16:21):
And I'm not convinced that thatis necessarily the best way to
make a movie because a lot oftimes you're asking film
students to step in and be theDP and be the production heads
and be the department heads anddo everything.
And to me, that can sometimesfeel a little exploitative, and
it doesn't necessarily getnecessarily the best results

(01:16:41):
because you're learning asopposed to actually having
mastered your craft.
And filmmaking is a craft.
So I knew that I didn't want todo something like that.
And I've been a part of aproject that had had had that as
a working environment, and itjust was it just was so so hard
on everybody.
But I really liked the idea oftrying to create an environment

(01:17:02):
where I could hire, I couldbring in my my professional
friends and I could crew them upwith young filmmakers eager to
get their first start.
And so while I knew that Ididn't want this to be like shot
by students in terms of likehaving it be a DP, I knew that,
you know, there would be likethree or four or five students
who would be eager to be cameraPAs on a big project.

(01:17:26):
And so what I was able to do wasleverage my relationships with
the school, where we basically,you know, we we we sort of uh
created a space where studentscould get hired onto the show.
And part of that was me workingwith Corey Pollard, Corey, our
you know, my my producer on thefilm, uh, is really big into

(01:17:46):
workplace development, trying todevelop and train and equip
filmmakers and do all thisstuff.
And so it was kind of Kismet inthe sense that he really wanted
to sort of uh try out thisworkforce development process of
training people.
And I had this sort of likegroup of about 20, 22 kids who

(01:18:07):
were willing to work on theproject because it was me, who I
knew, who I knew their skillsets, and I could kind of place
them in good positions.
And so it kind of worked outserendipitously.
And so as a result, our costumedepartment, our you know, our GE
department, our cameradepartment, production
designers, they were allprofessionals who were able to

(01:18:28):
mentor and train and work withsome of the younger members of
the crew.
And and some of theserelationships, you know, like
Corey Cast, who was our AD, Ihad actually taught Corey like
seven or eight years ago.
And Corey had subsequently movedto LA and had started on the
assistant directing track.
And so he wound up being ourfirst AD on our show.
He did a great job for us.
And so some of these people whoI knew, I was able to just kind

(01:18:49):
of pull in relationally.
And the school was very clear.
They were like, we want no partof this project.
We we we did this once, we wedon't want to do it again.
It was really hard.
Um, but they did sit up and takenotice, and now they've decided
to to go and do and do more ofthat, which I think is great.
Um, and and and do like afeature film project program
again where they where they putstudents to the paces.

(01:19:11):
But for me, it was like I reallywanted this to be a hybrid of
you know older, established,experienced artists who could
mentor and train new youngstorytellers.
And and that was kind of theethos that we had.
And so, you know, we they cameto Texas and we paid them and we
paid them a fair wage and wetook care of them and looked out

(01:19:32):
for them, and and and it reallybecame this kind of really
unique, sort of like I don'twant to call it camp because it
was very much a professionalenvironment, but it was it was
it was fun, it was kind of likewhat you want filmmaking to be.

Yeah, that's great.
I I um I love the heart behindwhat you're describing and
having seen the film and seenthe quality.
Um that you guys accomplished, Ithink people should set up and
take notice for I think it's a Ithink it's a I think it's a
really um um really cool processthat you guys established.

SPEAKER_04 (01:20:12):
Um well and and you know part of that was it it
wouldn't have happened withoutthe support of of Sharpened Iron
Studios, who was our studiofinancier coming out of Texas.
And part of how that happenedwas Ralph called me.
He was in Tokyo shooting aproject for Michael Mann, and he
called me in November and said,Hey, we've got our movies set in
Texas, right?
I said, Yeah, he said, Well, youknow, I've met these guys,
they've got money, they'rethey're they're wanting to put

(01:20:34):
together a studio in Texas.
Uh, and this was in the fall of2020.
And and and they had, ironicallyenough, this this studio, Sharp
Art Armor Studios, had justformed a relationship with um
Amarillo College, based inAmarillo, Texas, to do kind of
the same thing.
And so they heard that we weregoing to be doing that, we were

(01:20:56):
trying to create this trainingprogram, this mentoring program.
They got really excited about itbecause they want to train and
mentor our students coming outof the panhandle.
And so even though they weren'table to kind of get resort local
resources together for it, itwas this kind of cool like
mission where our our alignment,we we were, you know, our spirit
aligned with their spirit, andand we were able to kind of do
what we did with the support ofour Texas, of our Texas studio,

(01:21:19):
because we weren't able to do itwithout them in terms of putting
people up and and giving us thestudio resources.
And I think uh I think Sharperand I was surprised at the sheer
amount of printing that we didon a given day with call sheets
and shooting schedules andrevised call sheets and new
drafts of the script, and blah,blah, blah, blah, blah.
Um, so I think they wereprobably surprised at what we

(01:21:40):
needed.
But I think it was a goodlearning experience for them
too, in terms of learning likewhat it takes to make this go
because it it requires a lot.

So you both wrote and directed.
If I made you choose, whichwould you choose?
Would you choose to if you couldonly go forward, only writing or
only directing, which would youchoose in the line?
And I am making you choose, bythe way.

SPEAKER_04 (01:22:06):
Yeah, I know you are.
I know you are, I know you are.
You know there is somethingabout uh sitting on the set
while actors take something thatyou did and they just elevate
it, and then being able to go inthe editing room and sit with

(01:22:27):
your editor and craft it, andthen to be able to sit with my
composer and figure out themusical language of it.
And even now, you know, as we'rekind of going through the
process of press and publicity,I'm really enjoying this
process.
Um, you know, and and and youknow, I got I got a chance, I
shot a couple of episodes of aTV show uh this summer for um a

(01:22:49):
show that's gonna uh premierefor Sony uh next year.
And again, like to kind of be atthe center of this energy, you
know, it's kind of likeChristmas because you've got all
these people doing all thisamazing work.
And it's all it's like it is,it's like Christmas.
You're you you get to sit thereand and and be like, wow, all
this.
And then you got to try tofigure out how to like arrange

(01:23:09):
it and hone it, refine it, andall that stuff.
And it's it's so fun.
Like it's so like you know, theleast of these was hard.
It was a lot of work.
I had a lot of learning to do, Ihad a lot of growing up to do.
I had a lot of I had a lot ofhumbling that I needed to
experience.
And Jimmy Duke was part of thethat humbling a little bit.
Um, but but but I think thatwhat remains and the experience

(01:23:35):
of making what remains, youknow, I told my wife every day I
would call her at the end of theday and say, I I don't deserve
the movie that I'm getting.
Like it's so good.
And then, you know, the samething with with the show for
Sony this summer to be like,This is, you know, my showrunner
came to me at the end of thething and said, This is this is
good television.
You just make good television.
Like that was very relieving.

Um, and the and the interesting thing about that
example that you bring up is youknow, Lisa These and Wemains,
you're directing what you you'reyou're directing your script,
your word.
But that TV show, you'redirecting someone else's words.
So you're that is something thatthat that just gets your just
gets your heart pumping.

(01:24:17):
The idea of that's really cool.

SPEAKER_04 (01:24:19):
Well, and and to be able to kind of interpret
something, you know, and again,with with what remains, we we
already start out with a prettyspare script, it was 78 pages.
The the final movie is 69 pages,um, script wise, because there's
just so much that there's somany words that you don't need,
you know, when you're whenyou're kind of on the set, you
know this, you've directed it.

(01:24:39):
Like when you're on set and andyou go like, oh yeah, a look
will do just fine, you know.
Um, and and you know, with TV,you you don't really get the
chance to to do that.
My my showrunner uh said that Icould edit my episodes or work
with the editor to edit myepisodes as long as they didn't
cut anything out.
Um, so you know, you'd have tobe respectful when it's someone

(01:25:00):
else's words that you're messingwith.
And and so I certainly am awareof that.
But but yeah, when when an actoris able to sum up with one look
or one beat, you know, a wholeline or a whole story, it's just
it's amazing.
So so I I I loved it.
I I really I found myself lovingthe process of of what remains.
And we got to the end of those17 days in Texas, and there

(01:25:22):
people were so emotional.
Um, and one of the things thatone of the guys whose experience
came up to me and said is, do wehave to stop?
Like this is this is such aremarkable experience.
I don't, I don't want this to beover.
Like with with Le City, these Iwas I was ready for a good long
sleep.
Um, you know, and and and to andto process what I had needed to
learn from that experiencebecause it was a lot.

(01:25:45):
And and that's not to sayanything about Lisa D.
You made a good little movie,but uh, but I had I I I learned
on that one what I needed, Ilearned that I needed to learn.
And with what remains, it wasreally fun to demonstrate what I
learned, not just as a writer,but also um as a filmmaker.
I was at a a talk that SamWasson just gave a couple of
weeks ago.
Um, Sam Wasson's a filmhistorian and film film writer,

(01:26:06):
graduated from my college, andhe said in his talk, TV
aesthetics are different thanfilm aesthetics.
And I hadn't really thoughtabout that before, but it's
true.
Like with TV, it's aboutcoverage.
You know, it's I just I just gotto get stuff off.
With with film, it really isabout like how we use the camera
and using the camera to tell thestory.

(01:26:27):
And and on what remains, I wasreally able to do that, I think,
in a lot of ways.
It was fun designing shots, itwas fun sort of trying to tell a
story with a shot.
It was fun trying to figure outokay, how can the shot tell a
story?
How can the shot conveysomething?
And and that was really fun.
And and I, you know, I hope Ihope I get the chance to do it
again.

Well, and you did a I mean, the casting obviously
for the film is well, there's Iwant to touch on this a little
bit.
The casting is is is so great.
Uh, you and I have a friendshipwith Chress Williams.
Yeah.
Um, he's so good in the film,and I and it goes a little bit

(01:27:04):
to what you were saying earlier,back when you were talking about
how what compels you to film,and you talked about the
thematic nature of filmmaking.
And Cress's performance, you youcreated a role.
I so I'm not kind of spoilingthe movie or giving anything
away, but um, you know, it's ait's a small town, it's a small

(01:27:27):
town kind of crime thriller, um,and um drama and it and Cress's
character um is he go he he hasto um not only solve a a um a
literal kind of problem crisiswith his son, but he has to

(01:27:47):
solve an existential crisis uhwithin himself.
And and you cast him so well, hedoes such a good job.
I told Chris, man, when he hasthat beard, he just has such
gravity.
But yeah um talk a little bit ifyou can.
Obviously, we don't want to givespoilers, but um the film to you

(01:28:09):
is about what it's about doingthe right thing and about the
cost of doing the right thing.
It's about forgiveness and it'sabout the cost of unforgiveness,

(01:28:29):
yeah, you know, and and what isit about those themes?
I mean, you talked earlier aboutkind of the the impetus for the
story, but I'm curious why thosethemes um why those themes are
so important to you, or or ormaybe maybe important is not
even the right word.
Why did why do you think thosethemes emerged in the process of

(01:28:54):
the creation of this film?
And and why are those themes soimportant to you um as a
filmmaker and as a and as aperson of faith?

SPEAKER_04 (01:29:01):
Well, it's funny, Jimmy, because you know, I I
didn't actually connect the dotson this until halfway through
the editing process with whatremains.
But if you remember, in Least ofThese, an iconic scene close to
the end of the movie featuresAndy Lawrence confessing a sin
to Isaiah Washington, trying toavoid spoilers for those of you
who might want to see what uhLeast of These, which is

(01:29:22):
currently available on Amazon byDVD.
Um, but Andy Lawrence isdelivering this monologue, and
he's trying to process whatsomeone said to him before he
committed a horrible crime.
And he said, You know what thatguy told me?
I forgive you.
And it forces Andy into tears.

(01:29:45):
Uh, Andy Lawrence, a great,great actor, by the way.
I love working with that kid,he's so good.
Um and that same scene and thosesame lines reappear halfway
through this movie where onecharacter says to another, you
know, do you know what thisperson said to me?
I forgive you.
Could I do that?
Could you?

(01:30:06):
And he says it in that momentasking for forgiveness that he's
not going to get.
And and I think that all of usprobably, if we were honest with
ourselves, have things thatwhere we wonder, have I
committed the unforgivable sin?
Have I have I done somethingthat placed me outside the

(01:30:28):
boundaries of grace?
You know, we as a culture, weall want to sing that Lady Gaga
song, you know, I'm I'm bornthis way, that sort of defiant,
uh, I'm fine.
I'm fine, I'm fine, I'm fine.
And I was thinking about thisand going, I wonder why we are
as a culture so desperate totell people that we are fine the

(01:30:49):
way we are.
And I think it's because at theend of the day, we know there is
something wrong with us.
And there is something in usthat cries out for forgiveness.
You know, I'm certainly dealingwith this as a father with my
children.
I need to go to my kids at timesand say, I'm sorry, please

(01:31:10):
forgive me.
And my children have the rightto either say yes or no.
And that's scary.
But I do think that we are, welive in a culture and a time
more than ever where we don'treally want to be forgiven
because if we if we have to askfor forgiveness, we have to
confess that we've donesomething wrong.
And I do think that our Catholicbrothers and sisters have

(01:31:31):
something to this, to the ideaof confession being a sacrament,
that it is sacramental toconfess and ask for forgiveness.
There is something holy andsacred in that.
Um, that all this all of us thistalk about unconditional love,
so I don't need to apologize foranything.
It's like, well, that's not theJesus that I believe in.
Because the Jesus that I believein said, forgive them, Father.

(01:31:52):
They're out of their minds.
They don't know what they'redoing.
And so I think that that thatcertainly from a faith
perspective, I'm haunted by theneed for forgiveness.
From a cultural standpoint, I'mfascinated by the audacity of
people who say, I don't needforgiveness.
You know, I think one of theworst cultural lies that was

(01:32:13):
introduced came from a movie,Love Story, in the 1970s, saying
love means never having to sayyou're sorry.
I don't think that's true.
I think love means having to sayyou're sorry every day.
Certainly, those of us who aremarried understand that, or
married guys anyway.
Um, you know, and as a result,we need forgiveness.
And and you know, and it'sinteresting because what

(01:32:34):
remains, you know, I've gotten alot of responses from it because
we did, we did, we tested it,not like in a formal way, but we
sent it out for a lot.
And and and some of the biggestpushback I got was from
believers, um, who said, youknow, that they disagree with
the choice that one charactermakes in the movie, um, because,
you know, that's not justice.

(01:32:56):
And I said, well, yeah, but butwe have this dichotomy in the
scriptures where we have thesense of justice, but we also
have the sense of mercy.
And and and and and if webelieve in anything in our
faith, it's that mercy triumphsover justice.
It doesn't mean that justicedoesn't exist, but it's that
mercy must be a stronger forcethan justice.
And mercy starts with theability to say, I forgive you.

(01:33:20):
And that's not where it ends,but it certainly starts.
And so, so I'm I'm I think I'mI'm you know, so so at all those
levels I'm I'm fascinated.
But I'm also confronted with thefact that daily I need to ask
forgiveness from my wife, frommy children, from from my
friends.
I'd gone through a season justbefore the writing of the movie
where I had had to check in withsome people who I had sort of

(01:33:42):
fallen out of relationship withand say, is there anything that
I did to make this happen?
And if so, I'm sorry.
And some people accepted it,some people didn't.
Um, but there were also somethings, not to get too personal,
but there were some things interms of extended family that I
had to that God was sort ofasking me to confront.
And and what's interesting wasthat the point, the process of

(01:34:05):
writing the movie, I think mademe ready for when somebody came
to me and said, I need you toforgive me, I'm so sorry.
Where I was able to say, I'll beover to your house in 20
minutes, I'll sit with you andI'll cry with you and I'll hold
you, and it'll be okay.
So I do think that I hadpersonal relationship to the

(01:34:26):
subject matter and personalrelationship with the idea of
forgiveness.
But I think there's also, youknow, cultural and uh reasons
why forgiveness, I think,matters.
Um, and and I think that we as aculture need to take on this
notion of what do we forgive?
Because we are in a world rightnow where cancel culture and
Twitter and it we we we will wegladly crucify each other.

(01:34:49):
It's interesting as we go sortof more post-Christian in some
ways, we're going back topre-Christian days of of Rome.
You know, throw them in the,throw them in the throw them in
the Coliseum, let the lions tearat them, you know, and we kind
of it's this weird kind of bloodsport that we have as a culture
that is really troubling.
And it it starts, I think, fromour unwillingness to forgive

(01:35:12):
people, you know, and it doesn'tmean that that you know, the
Harvey Weinsteins of the worldor whatever don't need to to to
answer for their crimes, butwhat when we when we sort of are
gleefully trying to find how wecan crucify each other, you
know.
Uh I I have some friends who areex-Christian, ex-evangelicals

(01:35:33):
who sure seem to have a lot ofrighteous anger that they direct
at anyone who disagrees withthem.
And to me, that's just a case ofswitching teams because now
you've just become the monsterthat you were decrying, and I
think that's a problem.

Yeah, that's really good, really well said, bro.
I've said for a long time nowthat I think that Jesus'
teaching on forgiveness is hishardest teaching.
It's his it is his hardestteaching.

SPEAKER_03 (01:36:09):
How many times?
How many times?

Yeah, and we and we, you know, in typical, you know,
Christian fashion, evangelicalchurches, we we romanticize
everything.
Yeah, and so you know, it alljust seems so easy to just
preach a message or do a Sundayschool lesson and just think to
yourself, okay.
Well, this is what nice.

(01:36:32):
Yeah, isn't that nice?
Yes.
You know, if someone cuts youoff on the road, instead of
cussing them out, you know,forgive them and just move on.
And I think what your film doesis it goes, no, no, no, no, no.
Yes, that is that is somethingwe should do, but the idea of
forgiveness is a hard teaching.

(01:36:54):
And your film says, we're gonnawrestle with that, we're going
to examine it, we're gonna talkabout it, and it and you do it
in such a it's a such a such agood film, Nathan.
You did such a good job.
I really hope everyone rushesout to see it opening weekend
and downloads it and whatever itbootleg, no, don't bootleg it,

(01:37:15):
but but whatever you gotta do.
Uh but um you don't have tobootleg it.
I have copies, I'll give them noscreen.
Um but but uh but uh I I wantpeople to see the film because
the film it's a film.
So first and foremost, it's it'sit's entertaining, but but it
but it goes to your greater kindof value for dealing with films

(01:37:38):
that that that deal with themesthat are important that we want
to talk about, you know, likethat that are that that we want
to kind of wrestle with.
And this is something that Ithink is uh it's the most here
here's one of the bestcompliments I can give you,
right?
And I think I I think I toldthis to you before.
It's the most un-ChristianChristian film you can see,

(01:38:00):
right?

SPEAKER_04 (01:38:00):
Well, well, it's interesting because we had a lot
of debates about this uh when wewere making it.
Um, because we we're trying togo, this isn't really a
faith-based film.
What is this?
And it only occurred to me acouple weeks ago when I was
doing an interview where I saidit's a movie, it's not a
faith-based movie, but it is amovie about faith.
And I think, and I think thatthat that that with this film,

(01:38:22):
we really kind of want to, youknow, I think a lot of
faith-based films should takethe take the forgiveness as an
assumption, right?
Of course he's going to forgive,he's going to wrestle with it,
but then he's gonna forgive, andthen it's gonna work out.
And and I'm really interested inthe story of the prodigal son
after the prodigal son comeshome.
And the older brother has toconfront the prodigal son coming

(01:38:44):
home.
Like, and that's the genius ofof Jesus as a storyteller is
that he he doesn't let hischaracters off the hook easily.
And and and with this movie, youknow, one of the interesting
things about it is that I'veheard from people who say, Oh, I
really don't like Chris'scharacter, but I really like
Marcus's character, his son, orI really like Ann's character.
Um, like the hardest thing Ithink when crafting a story is

(01:39:06):
to try to craft a story whereevery character is right in
their own mind, and the audiencecan go, I agree with her, I
agree with him, I agree withhim.
And and and and as a writer anda storyteller, you've got to
kind of go, Well, I agree withall of it, right?
You've got to be even-handed interms of how you do it.
And so, and so, you know, thethis whole thing of forgiveness,

(01:39:28):
yeah, if forgiveness can't beeasy, and we can't make it a
flannel breath.
And we can't, because as Crestsays, you know, when Marcus
says, How can you forgive thisguy?
And Crest says, I can't.
You know, it's one of those rarerare moments of honesty in the
movie from Crest where hedivulges sort of his inner
thought process.
He says, You know, uh, I forgavehim at the funeral thinking I

(01:39:49):
would never have to see himagain.
But it's another thing toforgive somebody from far away.
It's another thing to have to doit every day up close.
And and what does that look likeas we as you know, the scripture
says we're supposed to walk.
work out our salvation with fearand trembling, then that means
that it is it is a hard,agonizing process, right, of
moving from where we've been towhere we could be.
And I and I I, you know, I don'twant us to be lot off the hook

(01:40:13):
easy because because it's easyto to to sort of make um you
know Ava Duvernay says thatevery year we dust off the
Martin Luther King bust, we takethem out, we put them on the
table on Martin Luther King Dayand we put them back up on the
on the shelf until next year.
It's very easy to make thesenoble things stoic and
unrelatable.

(01:40:34):
And I wanted to look at the costof forgiveness.
And I think the movie says thecost of forgiveness is
significant.
It should be but the cost ofunforgiveness is so much
greater.
Right.
And and I think that you know asas Christians a lot of times we
settle for easy themes.
And and somebody once taught methat you know sometimes uh

(01:40:56):
thematic storytelling is notabout choosing the greater of
two goods.
Sometimes it's just the lesserof two evils.
You know and so if this movie isabout unforgiveness is evil or
unforgiveness can lead to evilthen forgiveness however hard it
must be is going to be a betterchoice than than than the

(01:41:16):
alternative because look at whatlook at where Crest goes because
of his willingness to forgiveand and look at where Marcus
goes.
You know but but but but againmaking it hard you as a writer
you want to make your as hard asas possible for your characters
you want to put them through thecompressor you want to put them
through the ringer because Ithink that's what life does to
us.
Really you know you look at itat Satan and and God and Job and

(01:41:40):
and and Satan's just trying tofigure out how how close can I
get to his skin you know and andGod's trying to set up these
boundary lines of here but nofarther.
It's like you know um I thinkJohn Eldritch says that the the
evil one is a um he doesn'tfight fair.
You know he's not convenient andhe doesn't take what we are

(01:42:00):
willing to give.

Yeah.
So well said Nana I want to endwith this um oh we're ending oh
boy we're we're wrapping up wecan't talk about all the hard
stuff we haven't talked aboutyeah well well they're welcome
to come when we're hanging outand come here just you and I
talking for you know um but fortheir sake um I wanna I want to

(01:42:23):
close with this you you you youum you made mention of it
earlier in our conversation uhyou know we were joking about
kind of the craziness that hitus while we were shooting the
least of these you experiencedsomething um tragic um after

(01:42:45):
shooting what remains and it'snot something that is common in
this business and and and in andbecause it happened um once
again you know you've had pop idon't I'm gonna say paparazzi
but you've had press and thingslike that and um so what I'm
talking about obviously is yourlead actress and haish um she

(01:43:08):
passed away um you were you werealready pretty much you hadn't
locked picture but you werepretty much done for the most
part um no we we we had we hadlocked picture we were we were
actually we we were we were donewe were we were okay so you had
locked okay we we unlocked itafter she passed okay so you'd

(01:43:29):
go through and then over thistragedy strikes yeah and what I
I remember I remember you and Ikind of processing it and I
remember expressing to you atthe time that I thought this is
something that Nathan isprepared for um I thought to
myself God has uniquely preparedNathan for this and this is not

(01:43:54):
something that you sign up for.
This is not like you know heywe're all we're all going to the
list and we're going okay Godprepare me for this and prepare
me for this and this isn'tsomething that you would have
ever chosen to be prepared forbut I but I will have to say to
you my friend I think that overthe years um God has developed

(01:44:14):
you into the man that you aretoday to have prepared you for
this moment and I'd love for youjust to share just a little bit
about this moment that you guyshave included at the end of the
film um you wrote about it umvariety your friend at variety
had asked you to write about itcan you talk just briefly about

(01:44:35):
this kind of beautiful momentyou had with Anne on set that
actually got captured on on uhon film can you talk a little
bit about that yeah so you knowI mean look at the end of the
day the reality is that whenyou're on set you're you're on
set to tell a story and and yougot to be trying to get the

(01:44:55):
story and you got to be gettingyour shots and all that kind of
stuff and and you know what wasgreat about how Corey produced
the movie physically just beingon set was that we had a full
schedule we never had a rushedschedule and what that meant was
that we had we had opportunitiesto connect we had opportunities
to rehearse we had opportunitieslike we we took things like hour

(01:45:16):
long lunches which is not notcommon in what we do and it
meant that we had moments toconnect as people and Anne came
to our set open and she came toour set ready to she said on her
first day she said just put mewhere you want me I'm ready to

(01:45:38):
be used and I think that hurther in some places in her life
because when you put yourselfout there to be used people will

(01:46:00):
not always use you well and andwhen she said that I just knew
in my heart that she was we weregoing to work well with her.

SPEAKER_04 (01:46:09):
We were going to care for her we're gonna look
out for her and and we and wedid that I think through the
whole show.
And I think she felt valued Ithink she felt I think she felt
what she hoped for otherprojects to feel which was
listened to and heard andappreciated.
And so the the tragedy of herpassing is very much connected

(01:46:33):
to the beauty of what weexperienced on the set and and
where that moment came from onher last day was you know and
and and again your job is to getthe the stuff done but I think a
lot of times we miss momentsthat I would moments of grace if
we're just just focused ongetting the job done and we miss

(01:46:54):
the humanity of it.
And so I was so gratefulgrateful that I did not miss
this moment of humanity becausewe were waiting for a plane I
said uh be still for the planeand Anne just started singing
one particular day be still andknow that I am God and I started
harmonizing and she she lookedat me like with this five year

(01:47:17):
old face and said you know thatsong I said yeah man I'm a
pastor's kid I know that songand so she grabbed me uh after
we did the take and said can wedo that again for my social
media because nothing is realuntil it's on social media and I
still have the video she sent itto me that night and we started
talking about music we startedtalking about songs and she said

(01:47:38):
I love old hymns I love oldhymns I said what's your
favorite old hymn and she saidit is well with my soul and so I
recorded myself that nightsinging It is well with my soul
and I sent it to her.
And it wasn't until long afterwe'd rapped I read her
autobiography and I read thestories of how she would be
locked in a bathroom at sixyears old and all she would have

(01:48:02):
was the Bible and all she wouldhave were those old hymns and so
we kind of fell into thisrelationship where I knew that
music was a gift to her and wehad we had one particular day on
our one of our off days becauseI play some guitar and do some
worship leading and so we had abunch of the crew over about 15

(01:48:24):
folks over the house and we justsang for about an hour and a
half it was just beautiful wejust sang together and uh and
she heard about it and shetexted me and said hey on my
last day could you have couldyou gather your choir and have
them sing to me my choir yeahthese crew hands but I said okay

(01:48:48):
and we'll do that.
And so we we were finishedshooting her stuff at Victory
Tabernacle Church out inAmarillo outskirts of Amarillo
and we we wrapped her you knowor you wrapped her and then I
put my arm around her and I Iwalked her towards the church
she said uh oh Nathan I'm I'mnervous what are you doing you
bring me to church I said heyAnn you told me to gather my

(01:49:09):
choir and she said yes yes yes Idid and then she scampered into
the church like a little girland I sat at the piano and
members of the crew sort ofquietly walked in and we just
sang Amazing Grace together.
And it was so funny was I hadforgotten about this but she she

(01:49:29):
wanted to find her phone shewanted someone to bring her
phone to her so she couldcapture it um so she could hold
it close to her.
And our our behind the scenesteam Andrew Koltnik and Lou
Myers and Teddy Halloranhappened to be there it was
totally unplanned but theyrecorded the whole thing and
filmed it and and it was justthis like little grace note and

(01:49:52):
you know you can see it in thethe footage that people magazine
released there's this gasp onher face when I start singing
and I heard it and it and myvoice breaks slightly as I start
singing because the theexcitement that she felt hearing
those opening notes I don't knowit just it broke something I

(01:50:13):
don't know and so we so we didwe sang it together and it's a
beautiful moment in the movieshe she loudly just yes that was
the best blessing of all timeshe says as she as she walks off
and and then when she died heragent called me and said I've
got a recording of her singingLeonard Cohen's Hallelujah that

(01:50:36):
maybe you could use in themovie.
And I said Paul I've gotsomething better and and I look
I love me some Leonard Cohen butbut but Leonard Cohen I it's a
it's it's a song we've heard andso we did my my editor Lonnie
Irvin our sound guy Joel CatalanI I got Andrew Colton sent me
the footage and I said we havewe have to put this in the we

(01:50:58):
have to put at least a portionof this in the credits now.
And what's interesting I dothink that when people die
sometimes they leave you giftsand I do think that you know the
movie always ends on a bit hasalways ended on a bit of an
ambiguous note.
It's always there's always anote of ambivalence of ambiguity
at the end of the movie.

(01:51:18):
And I think the ironic thing isthat including a little portion
of Amazing Grace now in the endof the credits it just provides
a little bit of a grace note atthe end of the film a little bit
of a lift a little bit of a of asense of hope it provides a
little bit of that emotionalcatharsis that I think audiences
are looking for.
And I do think that Anne left meand us with that little gift of

(01:51:45):
she's okay.
And uh and I have to say youknow it's interesting the press
stuff um has been complicated towade through because you don't
want her death to overshadow herlife and you don't want her
death to overshadow her work.
And so it was interestingbecause when we when people
leaked that footage there weresome comments on on either

(01:52:05):
Entertainment Weekly or Peoplewhere somebody said how dare
that woman sing about race andthat just made me angry because
as a Christian I go how can shenot and so there might be some
people who watch that movie andfor whom her reputation makes

(01:52:28):
them go what's she doing?

Well I know exactly what she was doing and I know
exactly who she met in thatevent and I know exactly who is
calling to her on our set and Iknow exactly who I think was
waiting for her when she wenthome that's beautiful you know I

(01:52:52):
think it's a great summary ofour conversation today because I
think the moment of grace thatyou guys offered to her and in
return she offered back to youguys that moment of grace that
God provided for all of you in asense that moment doesn't happen

(01:53:16):
if you guys don't put all thework into getting you to that
moment getting you to that placeto that opportunity and that's
why I believe that you wereuniquely created for that time
and the fact that you guys builtsuch a communal family oriented
set made something like thatmore possible gave probably made

(01:53:41):
her feel more comfortable gaveher that sense of freedom uh in
those moments and um uh I thinkthat just goes to the greater
ethic that you have and thatyou've developed as a filmmaker
out here bro that um and I justI'm so proud of you and I think

(01:54:02):
it's such a beautiful thing andI really hope that people watch
the film and support the filmand um it's um at what remains
film uh on on Instagram they cansee if it's playing either in
the theaters um beginningDecember 2nd um or or they can

(01:54:23):
check it out um online and thenum so Nathan I love you buddy
this has been awesome I'vereally enjoyed this conversation
and um I think that our audienceis gonna get a lot out of this i
i always ask my uh guests if uhi can close the podcast by

(01:54:43):
praying for them would you allowme to do that no no i will not i
can't imagine i've been waitingfor someone i've been waiting
for someone to say that and ofcourse it's you yes no it would
be uh it'd be an honor uh youknow and and and jimmy i just i
do just appreciate the time andthe chance to connect like this
and you know i'm a huge fan ofof you and and i think you're

(01:55:05):
just uh you know one of thoseguys that is uh creating
conversations like this andspaces for conversation less
doesn't matter you know we don'ttalk about this stuff enough so
thank you for all yourleadership and everything you do
to spearhead uh so many thingslike this it's it's so important
bro and you've got your own uhgoals and things and projects
that you're pushing on andworking for and I hope that
somebody somebody interviewingyou so yeah I'll interview

(01:55:30):
myself I'll interview myself soJimmy it's okay um mutual
admiration society I love youbro this is um I just want
people to get to know you andknow your heart and and
obviously know your work and umso yeah this has been great so
let me let me let me close thisin prayer thank you heavenly
father we just thank you or wejust pause and stop and thank

(01:55:54):
you and thank you for Nathan andthank you for his friendship and
thank you for his love for youand his love for other people
and thank you for how you havegifted him with um not only with
great talent but with grit andresilience and God I I pray a
blessing upon all the work thatcomes from his hands.

(01:56:15):
God I pray that um that hisfilms and his stories would find
their ways into the hearts andminds of audiences all over the
world.
And God I pray for his family Ipray for his wife his his uh
beautiful family his daughtersGod I pray for all of his work
both uh inside of this industryand outside of it God I pray

(01:56:40):
that um you would continue touse Nathan in a powerful way um
to uh be a blessing and benefitto those around him and uh we
love you God thank you for thistime today we pray this in
Jesus' name and your promise aswe stand.
Amen.
Thank you for listening to theAct One podcast celebrating over
20 years as the premier trainingprogram for Christians in

(01:57:01):
Hollywood Act One is a Christiancommunity of entertainment
industry professionals who trainand equip storytellers to create
works of truth, goodness andbeauty.
The Act One program is adivision of Master Media
International.
To financially support themission of Act One or to learn
more about our programs, visitus online at Act One Program dot
com and to learn more about thework of Master Media, go to

(01:57:24):
mastermedia

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