Writer/Director Spencer Folmar

Episode Transcript
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Spencer Folmar (00:01):
So often, especially in the postmodern
world in which I grew up in,nothing mattered.
I was a nihilist at 21 becauseit just felt like it didn't
matter what I did or didn'tbelieve, what someone believed
or didn't believe, it didn'tmatter.
There's just no truth.
And if there's no truth, thenour decisions don't matter, our
choices don't matter, there's noramifications, there's no
consequences.
And I think forever, you know,for these hundred years and

(00:25):
great plays and stories andparables before that, but today
film show the extremeimplications of everyday choices
and the eternal significance ofthese choices and what
significance a single person'slife has.

James Duke (00:52):
You are listening to the Act One podcast.
I'm your host, James Duke.
Thanks for tuning in.
If you like what you hear,please subscribe to our podcast
and leave us a good review.
My guest today iswriter-director, Spencer Fomar.
Spencer has been makingindependent feature films for
over 15 years.
He's also the founder ofAmerican Talent Management, as
well as the Hard Faith FilmFestival.

(01:14):
His 2017 theatrical debut,Generational Sins, made
worldwide news with his new HardFaith genre.
Some of his other films includeShooting Heroine and Bright
Sky.
His latest film, Saint Nick ofBethlehem, is currently
streaming on Amazon Prime Videoand Angel Studios.
Check it out.
Spencer is a good friend, andwe cover a lot in this

(01:36):
conversation.
I hope you enjoy it.
Spencer Fulmer, welcome to theAct One podcast.
It's good to see you.

Good to see you, Jimmy Duke.
Thank you so much for having meon the Act One Podcast.
Love Act One.

James Duke (01:50):
We've been thank you.
I love you too.
I love you more.
We've been talking about, we'vebeen catching up here.
And it's you are you arebasically you're not I can't
call you bicostal because you'renot on the other coast, but
you're you are you are you'resplitting your time between now
California and Pennsylvania, isthat right?

Yes, the California of the East.

James Duke (02:16):
The California of the East.

My family goes back to before the Revolutionary
War here.
So yeah, we've been here a longtime.
Sun American Revolution.
But since 2015, I've been aCalifornia native.
And uh and and so we aresplitting our time now between
Pennsylvania and California.
But yes, the California of theEast.

James Duke (02:47):
And you you have shot a lot of your stuff there
in Pennsylvania.
We're gonna talk about some ofthose things and kind of why you
do what you do, but but just inorder to get people who who
maybe don't know you, Spencer,which is a downright shame
because you're a great you're agreat person to know.
Fill people in a little bit onon just kind of your journey to

(03:08):
faith.
Like give us a little give us alittle encapsulation of of what
brought you both to God and tofilm, because I know there is
some connection between the two.

Yeah.
Well, thank you, Jimmy Duke.
I grew up in the sticks ofPennsylvania, and so I was
brought to film first.
Film was always an escape.
I love film.
I grew up going to our localdrive-in and our single screen
screen historic theater.
And for as long as I canremember, I always saw movies,

(03:39):
memorized every line of myfavorite films as a kid, and I
thought I want to direct movies,I want to make films.
That's what I want to do for mywhole life.
I have known that as long as Ican remember.
I never had a spiritualfoundation, I never had a faith
foundation.
I had gone to church forChristmas and Easter a handful

(04:02):
of times before I was 21, didn'tgrow up in the church, and
really had written offChristianity just because I had
heard enough about it from justWestern culture.
And was, for whatever reason,after graduating from college,
looking for a spiritualfoundation before I moved across

(04:24):
the country to Los Angeles topursue film because I knew I
knew no one, I knew no oneacross the country.
I knew no one in Los Angeles, Iknew no one in the Hollywood
industry.
And I wanted to have some kindof foundation of a spiritual
understanding.
And what had happened,interestingly, is in our in my

(04:45):
senior year of high school, wehad a foreign exchange student
from Pakistan who was Muslim andhe was very serious about his
faith.
And so I learned a lot aboutIslam and read the Quran with
him that did not resonate withme.
I read the Book of Mormon, didnot resonate with me.
And my sister had recently readthe Bible for the first time,
and she had started taking herfaith seriously.

(05:08):
And she said, Before you moveto Los Angeles, you should read
the Bible.
You should considerChristianity for the first time.
And so I did, and I was gonnajust go to like a European cafe
and read the Bible from front toback and decide once and for
all, I believe in Christianity.
And instead, I decided withsome wise counsel that it would
be better to do that under sometutelage of people who had

(05:29):
studied the Bible their wholelife.
So I went to a Bible schooloverseas in New Zealand, and I
read the Bible for the firsttime.
It was called Adventure BibleSchool.
You read it while you wereliving out in the bush of New
Zealand.

James Duke (05:42):
Wait a second, wait a second, wait a second.
I know, I know.
At a 21 year old, are yousaying before you cracked open a
Bible, you joined a Bibleschool?

Yes, because I had read the Quran and I read
the Book of Mormon, and I justthey weren't all that
interesting, and I really,really didn't want to read the
Bible, and I was going to, butlike it just felt like reading
an algebra book.
And so I was like, if I'm gonnado this, I'm gonna do this
someplace cool.
And I love Lord of the Rings.
So I was like, I'm gonna dothis in New Zealand.
And so I I went to New Zealandand it was adventure Bible

(06:12):
school.
So you lived out, you know, youyou you went camping, you lived
out in the middle of nowherefor six weeks, and you read the
Bible.
A lot of people's gap years,you know, a lot of Canadians and
English.
And and I hated it for thefirst four and a half weeks, and
I hated all these annoyingChristians and you know, all

(06:33):
these weak people, and blame,you know, they would they would
blame everything that they didon themselves, and they would
all they, you know, they're justso insufferable.
And then by the fifth week, Irealized that the problem with
this whole Bible school and thisBible and this religion wasn't

(06:53):
all these other people, it wasme, and that I was the selfish
SOB.
And that the point of myexistence was not to glorify
myself, but the point of myexistence, if there was any
point in living, was to be athread in God's tapestry to
glorify him.

(07:14):
And so it just was a complete180 in the wilderness
experience, and it was thatGalatians 2.20 that's no longer
I who live, but Christ who livesthrough me.
And I just thought, all right,I've I haven't lived that long,
but it felt like an early lifecrisis at 21 years old.
I thought, there's not, I don'tsee a lot of point in living

(07:36):
for me, for my glory, and justif I if it's just me and my end,
it seems like a pretty futileending, dark ending.
There's not a lot of purpose.
But and I was kind of anihilist at that point.
I I had read these otherreligious books, and I just
thought there's not a lot ofpurpose to anything.
But I but I realized afterreading reading Galatians and

(07:58):
reading Acts before that, andand I started after the Gospels
because I thought I'd heardenough about Christianity and I
heard I heard enough about youknow Jesus' life.
I was like, what happens afterJesus' life?
So I started with Acts and thenI read forward, and once I got
to Galatians, which isn't allthat much further, that's when I
converted.
And then I read the Gospels,and then I read the Old
Testament, and then I went toseminary because I realized that

(08:21):
I want to make movies now aboutthe greatest thing that has
ever happened, the whole purposeof living that I never heard
about for 21 years.
I want to make movies aboutGod.
And I just read the Bible forthe first time ever in this
eight-month, what turned intolike an eight-month Bible
school.
And so I went to seminary sothat if I did make movies about

(08:42):
God or I talked about God,hopefully it would be
theologically sound and I wouldnot lead people astray because I
knew nothing about Christianitybecause I just read, I just
dipped my toe in the ocean oftheology for the first time.

James Duke (08:55):
Yeah.
Wow.
Wow.
So you so after yourconversion, you felt a you said,
I want to, you immediately wasalmost immediate.
I want to take this new foundfaith, yeah, and I want to
immediately apply it to thisthis passion and and and drive

(09:15):
that I've had my whole life.
Yeah, exactly.

Yeah, because I and I because I still love film.
And I had built in a filmschool, I had had opportunities
to study under Oscar-winningfilmmakers, and I love film.
And I realized that God coulduse my skills for film and I
could tell stories about God ina fantastic way, but I want to
talk about him accurately.

(09:39):
And I was and I was alsointerested about learning about
Christian filmmaking because I'dnever seen a Christian movie.
And so I watched a lot offaith-based films and I didn't
find them all that riveting, andthey didn't really speak that
much to me.
And also, I want to go toseminary just so I could talk
about things that I thoughtwould help people get to the

(10:00):
truth and beauty of Christquicker in the 90, 120 minutes I
have them in a in a cinema witha film.
And I and I I love film and Ibelieve in film.
I leave believe in the power offilm, and it's I think still
the most impactful medium forconveying a message.
And we just don't have people'sattention span anywhere in

(10:20):
society like we do, especiallyin a cinema, or you know, if
they can watch their film athome without looking at their
phone.
But still, the power of film isamazing for conveying a
message.
And so if we can also use thatincredible medium to accurately
showcase this beauty of Christthat I didn't discover for 21

(10:43):
years for people who desperatelyneed it, like I needed it then,
what a what a youthful,beautiful way to spend the rest
of your life.
That's why I decided then.

James Duke (10:56):
What do you what do you love about film so much?
What what is it about film?
Because obviously, like withanything else, our our love for
something or appreciation forsomething matures over time and
you fell in love with it at anearly age.
So what would you say maybewhat you loved early on versus

(11:19):
how has your love for filmmatured up to this point?

You know, I'll butcher it, but I I saw recently
that the Pope talked about hisour new amazing American Pope
talked about his new his topfour favorite films, as well as
the power of cinema and thepower of film.
And he said, like, the youknow, what's so beautiful about
film is that it shows thesignificance of life.
It shows the significance ofliving.

(11:46):
You see your story or someresemblance of your story on the
big screen, and every choicethat main character makes has
incredible significance forthose 90, 120 minutes that you
travel with that person.
They have profound impacts onhow the rest of the story
unravels.
And so often, especially in thepostmodern world in which I

(12:10):
grew up in, nothing mattered.
I was a nihilist at 21 becauseit just felt like nothing
mattered.
It didn't matter what I did ordidn't believe, what someone
believed or didn't believe, itdidn't matter.
You know, there's just notruth.
And if there's no truth, thenour decisions don't matter, our
choices don't matter, there's noramifications, there's no

(12:31):
consequences.
And I think forever, you know,for these hundred years and
great plays and stories andparables before that, but today,
film, they show the extremeimplications of everyday choices
and the eternal significance ofthese choices and what

(12:53):
significance a single person'slife has.
I think one of the mostbeautiful things about
Christianity that I think isn'ttalked about enough from the
church, and is very uniquelyChristian, I think more than
most of the other religions, isthe dignity of man, the dignity
of humanity.

(13:13):
So I think like I don't Idon't, you know, I don't just I
don't like making roles for anyfilmmakers as someone who calls
himself hard faith, but I don'tparticularly like slasher films
or horror films or films thatare focused on cruelty because I
don't want to denigrate ordegrade the the eternal value of

(13:37):
one soul.
And so I think goodChristianity and good theology
explains human dignity well.
And I think a great film showshow in in significant one
person, even if it's a fictionalperson that never lived, that
that someone just made up, itshows how much that well-lived

(14:02):
or poorly lived life can impactyou as an audience member.
It can impact all the people inthis fictional world, it can
impact everyone that has seenthe story, that you're talking
about this movie that you saw10, 20, 30, 40, 50 years ago.
And for all of us that areliving like what can feel like
an ant amongst 7 billion people,where it where no matter what

(14:25):
we do, there's no impact and nosignificance.
Seeing and feeling thatexperience of significance in
cinema, I think is somethingthat has stayed with me
throughout the years andsomething that I've appreciated
more and more as I've gottenolder and able to articulate why
it matters to me so much.

(14:45):
Because when I was young, Ijust saw it as what I would call
escapism.
But what it would really waswas I saw a future in which was
more exciting and moremeaningful and had purpose that
I couldn't find in my currentexistence as a young kid.

James Duke (15:04):
That's good.
That's really good.
I for me, one of my struggles,and I think it's a struggle that
you have too, with this kind ofcategory that's often referred
to as Christian film orChristian cinema or faith-based
films or whatever, whateverpeople want to call it these
days, is is they tend to be soheavenly minded that they forget

(15:26):
that we're all living here onearth right now.
And that they're they're theythey're I don't I don't fault
them for their attempts to tryto you know get us to lift our
eyes to heaven.
I'm I'm being very graciouswith my descriptions here.
But the example that I give islike a filmmaker like Alexander
Payne or some of these otherguys, they're just dealing with

(15:47):
like the basic human emotionsand the and the transcendental
nature of what it means to behuman and connecting to all
connecting everyone into thatkind of mutual human experience.
And I one of my big complaintsabout this genre of filmmaking
of figure is that's almostcompletely absent.

(16:08):
There's very little in in thesefilms about the actual human
experience, and I think that'swhy so many of them leave us
hollow.
You you obviously have a strongtake on this because of hard
faith.
So what first of all, whatwhat's your response to that?

(16:29):
And then two, tell people alittle bit about what hard faith
is and kind of what what whatbrought you to uh to to kind of
create this new category, if youwill.

Yeah, I I love how you put it that like some of
these faith-based films are soheavily minded, it's like us
here on Earth can't connect withthem.
It's so true.
And I say this, you know, whenI'm trying to explain hard faith
or doing a workshop about it.
It's like the world in which Isaw hard, you know, the the
traditional faith-based films,which are often synonymous with

(17:02):
family-friendly onlyentertainment, are so censored
and so rosy colored, and they'reso idealistic that it's a world
that no one has ever lived in.
You know, maybe Am and Evelived in it before Eve took that
apple, but otherwise, no onehas ever been so privileged and

(17:22):
so blessed to live in this PBSspecial of a world that the
faith-based entertainmentdepicts.

James Duke (17:28):
I love that.
It's almost like a new fantasygenre.

It's a complete fantasy genre.
You know, it's a little kids'comic book series, and and none
of us have, you know, because soso when as soon as that type of
movie begins, I'm like, allright, well, even for someone
who has been in the church nowfor 15 years, a late convert
that has been in the church for15 years, I have to like do some

(17:53):
mental gymnastics and put on,like, you know, put on my hat
and realize that this is adifferent world in which they're
depicting.
But if I'm bringing my cousinor my brother or my friend that
is not a Christian, that neverwent to church, that never saw
any of our Christian ghetto, youknow, fabrications, then it's

(18:14):
completely inaccessible becauseit's just a made-up world that
doesn't exist and and and reallydoesn't serve anyone.
And it doesn't even serve,like, you know, the best, you
know, because I know you'rebeing charitable, so I also try
and be charitable.
It can be like Sunday school,right?
Like it's almost like a Sundayschool, like that's how we
sometimes talk about it.
And we never get out of Sundayschool, we just keep feeding

(18:36):
people milk, we never feed themfood.
But you know, it's also notserving the gospel message,
because if we pretend that thisfake world, this PBS special of
a world, is the real world,that's what we keep depicting in
our faith-based films andshowing to the world, you know,

(18:57):
in in cinemas and saying thisthis is the Christian world,
well, then we never needed asavior.
Things were never that bad.
If the world is not R-rated,there was never need for a
bloody crucifixion.
So it is just it just goesagainst common sense and just
what we see and what we hear andwhat we feel and what we know

(19:20):
every day since we were born,since we realized that we
existed.
We live in an extremely broken,dark, terrifying world.
And none of us have experiencedanything else.
So to depict that only in thesefaith-based films is dishonest,
and it's also unproductivebecause we are pointing someone

(19:44):
to a golden calf, we're notpointing someone to a savior.

James Duke (19:47):
You you that's a great that's a great way to put
it.
The and the Sunday schoolanalogy is is is dead on because
for many people who would makethe argument, and I've got
family, uh the the There's manypeople who would make the
argument that they that, youknow, oh, they love these kinds
of film.
I would make the argument tothem is the issue isn't that you

(20:12):
like these kind of safe films.
It's not you just don't likefilm in general for the most
part.
You know, like you just that'sjust but the the Sunday school
analogy is really good, Spencer,because I think that I would
tell I would ask those samepeople, I would say, okay, go go
to Sunday school class, and Iwant you to go to Sunday school,

(20:34):
and I want your only churchexperience to be that felt bored
lesson.
And I and I and I literallyweek after week, you're not
allowed to go to the mainsermon.
You have to sit in there witheight-year-olds and hear the
felt.
At some point, you're gonnalook at me and you're gonna go,

(20:57):
I really can't do this anymore.
This is this is lovely, this isgood, but do you have anything
else for me?
And then it's gonna be like,Well, yeah, it's called the main
service.
It's called where the pastor'spreaching the the sermon to the
adults because we have anunderstanding that there are
some things in the Bible wedon't teach eight-year-olds, not

(21:20):
because they're not true, butbecause of their maturity level,
they're not prepared to grasptheir brains, they are still
developing.
So what we do is we wait, wepace, we pace our understanding
of scripture.
We're not withholding thingsfrom them because we don't think
that they're untrue or thingslike that.
But it's that we understandthat there are levels of

(21:42):
maturity.
And unfortunately, thisconversation is completely
absent when it comes to thearts.
There is a level of maturity tothe arts that we have to be
aware of.
The other one I give is thegoing bowling.
And when I would go bowlingwith my kids when they were
little, they would put up thosebumpers.
You know what I'm talkingabout?

Oh, yeah.
I love those things.

James Duke (22:03):
Yeah.
You know, my son didn't havethose, and my daughter had them.
And my son got reallyfrustrated with all the gutter
balls, right?
And my daughter's just likeknocking down pens left and
right, you know.
And and the truth is, is I feellike that's the way a lot of
people are choosing their films.

(22:24):
And it's like the truth of thematter is life is gutter balls.
Oh, yeah.
Life is is almost exclusivelygutter balls in different stages
of life.
And our stories should reflectthat.
And if our stories if I'm okaywith once again, I'm okay with

(22:45):
the felt board Sunday schoollessons for for a time period.
I'm okay with the bumpers, thegutter bumpers for a time
period.
But at some point, if you're ifyou if you want your stories to
reflect real life, you've gotto have gutter balls.
You've got to remove thebumpers of your stories and let

(23:06):
people see life reflected backto them the way they experience
it in their everyday lives.

Absolutely.
And like there are some peoplewho just love Hallmark movies,
right?
Like, you know, grandma's andso many people just they just
love Hallmark movies.
They want a feel-good movie,they want Sunday school, they
want Feltboard.
Absolutely.
That's fine, right?
Right.
And you know, superhero movies,everything else.
There, but whenever we we makethat the only representation of

(23:35):
our faith, I think it's it'sdangerous and disingenuous
because it cuts out everyonethat our faith is for, which is
for the sick and the dying andthe lost and the sinners who
know that they need help.
It's not just a feel-goodstory.
It is a feel-good story, but itcomes through a crucifixion, it

(23:56):
comes through death, and itcomes through atonement, and it
comes through a fall, and andthen there's redemption.
But if you just live on themountaintop experiences, you
never look down into the valleyof all your brothers and sisters
who have only lived indarkness.
And that's not okay.

James Duke (24:15):
And by the way, I understand the criticism for
people who say, or let me letme, I understand the theological
criticism for people who sayyou focus too much on the
crucifixion and not enough onthe resurrection.
I get that.
But if you focus too much,there is no resurrection without
the crucifixion.

Yeah.

James Duke (24:35):
Like from a just from a theological standpoint,
there's no there's noresurrection without the
crucifixion, right?
There's not a crown without across.
Like this is what we knowaccording to scripture and what
Paul talked to us about.
So the so then when we look atour art, we can acknowledge that
they're there that lighterfilms, feel good things, that

(25:00):
that's all wonderful and good.
There's nothing wrong with it.
We have categories allthroughout our art that allow us
to have different types.
It's called genre.
You can operate in differentgenres, but to your point, to
exclude the crucifixion is toring, is to, is to make the
resurrection, is to hollow theresurrection out.

(25:20):
And so our films, if they'renot about, if they're not about
the crucifixion, then what arethey about?

Totally.
Yep.
And and and that's a that's whywe started, that's why I
started hard faith, is becauseit's like all I saw in the
marketplace, besides a couple ofCatholic examples, like The
Passion of the Christ and MelGibson and Mel Gibson and Mel
Gibson, the only examples I sawwere these family-friendly only

(25:48):
films.
If you want to make a Christianmovie, it had to practically be
a Hallmark movie.
It had to be PG or G, had to beokay for Sunday school, and it
couldn't have anythingoffensive, and it had to be that
you know that that Sundayschool felt bored, and that's
it.
And you weren't allowed to makeanything else if you want to
call it Christian.
And if you included anything ofcrucifixion or anything else,

(26:12):
then you know that's it's not aChristian movie.
And I just said, well, that'snot who I'm trying to reach.
I'm not trying to reach peoplewho already already realize that
you know Sunday's coming, thatresurrection is coming.
I'm trying to reach people whohave only ever lived in
darkness, who have never everseen the light, who have never

(26:32):
tasted water, never ever livedin the desert, or who
continually fall down into thevalley or live most of their
life in the valley, even if theyare believers.
And so I want to give hope tothose who are least hopeful, who
need hope the most.
And there doesn't seem to beanyone in the marketplace that

(26:53):
wants to embrace that,especially if it's in a PG 13 or
an R-rated setting that depictsthe world in which it actually
is, a world that needs a savior.
It doesn't censor the world, itshows the world, it starts
people on the very first minute,the world in which we all
walked into the movie theaterin.
And so that's why we startedhard faith.

(27:13):
That is hard faith.
It's called telling storiesthat liberate.
We tell real stories, humanstories, that have truth in
them.
You know, it can be explicit,it can be metaphorical, but it's
always Christian, it's alwaysleading people to Christ.
And it's often dealing withtopics that pastors don't deal
with and Christian films don'tdeal with.

James Duke (27:36):
I remember when we were releasing, we were just
working on the distribution dealfor Ragamuffin.
Oh, yeah.
And we were negotiating withLifeway bookstores.
At the time, Lifeway bookstoreswas the number one Christian,
they were the number onedistributor.
Like you, you had to get youhad you had to get your I'm I'm

(27:56):
dating myself here, DVDs.
You had to get your DVDs intoLifeway if you're going to make
any money, because they theykind of they were like 90% of
the marketplace.
It was like huge.
They I don't know what they arenow.
I mean, I don't think anybodycould buys anything from those
places anymore.
But anyway, but if you do,great.
I'm mad at you if you do.

(28:18):
But anyway, my point being isyou had to, we they were a
gatekeeper.
They were a massive gatekeeper.
And here we made this littleindie film on Rich Mullins, and
they're selling his music still,you know, posthumously, years
after he's dead, playing hismusic, all that kind of stuff.
Well, Rich drove one of thethings about Rich in real life

(28:40):
is he drank and smoked.
Smoked.
And some and he had a problemwith drinking, and that's kind
of a part of part of his story.
So obviously it's it'sreferenced in the film.
You see him drinking andsmoking.
They refused to carry our filmand sell our film for that
alone.
And the And it's a great movie.
The decision maker, thedecision maker, the guy who had

(29:03):
to make the one who made thedecision.
We went back and forth with himmultiple times.
There was like three people whomade the decision, the buyers,
if you will, but there was oneguy who was like, you had to get
to him, you know, and the othertwo buyers were for it, but he
was the one, and he was like,No, he kept saying no, no, no.
And we went back and forth andback and forth, and he refused

(29:24):
to, in the end, they they theysaid no.
And the explicit reason givenwas because there was drinking
and smoking in the film.
And so discounting everythingelse, the fact that you're
selling his music right there,but this person thought that
that that does that uh cannot beincluded in a quote unquote

(29:45):
faith-based Christian film thatthat like so you know what you
you could agree or disagree withthat person.
I tend to disagree with themwholeheartedly, but that's what
you're talking about.
You're talking about some ofthis just feels arbitrary.
And and and that's why I Ithink for what you're what
you're talking about with hardfaith is you're saying we're

(30:07):
we're not we're not concerningourselves with those kind of
things.
We're concerning our ourselveswith these deeper thematic
issues.
That's where the the thoughtfulChristian, the thoughtful
Christiannness of a movieresides is is is in is in is in

(30:28):
the themes.
Would that would that be a goodway of saying it?

Absolutely.
Yeah, you know, and and justlike you know, Rich's story, and
I love Ragamuffin and had thepleasure of working with a lot
of the Ragamuffin crew on one ofmy films.

James Duke (30:42):
You did, that's right.
Generational sins, right?

Generational sins, yeah, our first world hard
faith theatrical film.
But you know, it it's like thething that I love about the
Bible is that there's theseamazing characters of faith.
And when you hear about them inSunday school, they didn't do
anything wrong.
They were like a second comingof Christ or a first coming of
Christ.
But then when you read theBible and you hear about these

(31:04):
stories, the Bible is sorefreshingly honest, unlike any
other religious book, wherethese incredible men and women
of faith constantly, right afterwinning wars and doing great
things in the name of the Lord,they sinned terrifically,
horrifically.
And the Bible is so honestabout how people continue to

(31:27):
mess up and sin, and we cannever do it on our own, and we
continually need a savior at thepoint of conversion,
sanctification, all the wayuntil Christ's second coming.
And and so Rich is someone thatGod used mightily, like King
David and Solomon and so manygreat people, and he yet

(31:48):
continued to stumble and fall.
And whenever we only show theSunday school version of these
people when we only play theirmusic, but we don't talk about
their struggle.
Well, then it makes it seemlike, well, God really can only
use perfect people.
But that's not true.
And the Bible is so relentlessabout showing that every single

(32:09):
person God used, every singleone, even the apostles, even
Peter, the rock in which thechurch was built on denied
Christ three times when heneeded him the most.
And the Bible shows that that'sthe kind of people God uses
time and time again.
Yet the church says, no, we canonly show people that never
mess up.

(32:30):
And if you mess up, we can'tand we can't sell it and we
can't distribute it.
But that's not that's not thestory, that's not that that then
excludes everyone.
That even excludes those of usthat sit every Sunday in the
pews, and it certainly excludespeople that have never gone to
church to ever be used by God.

James Duke (32:49):
Amen.
Amen.
In fact, I would go as far asto say the work the worst
characters in all of literatureare found in the Bible.
So true.
I was just reading throughChronicles.
Oh my god.
You you can't you can't, youknow, you you throw a you close
your eyes and throw a dart, andyou're gonna and you're gonna

(33:11):
nail a some evil, wicked kingwho did something truly
atrocious, and like forsacrificing their own children.
And and and this is but buthere's something else.
I'm reading in Chronicles, anduh man, somebody's gonna hear me
say this, and they're gonnacall me out on it.
I forget which king it was, butyou know, it's like every king,
you know, it's that bat, youknow, and they and they and they

(33:35):
were wicked in the Lord's eyes,and they did wick, and they
did, and they did wicked thingsin the Lord's eye.
And then boom, you'd you know,you'd have Hezekiah show up and
he's good, or Josiah, and youknow, but then boom, we're back
to being you know, Manasseh,whatever wicked, wicked, wicked.
And then um there was one king,I can't remember, who was and
but to your point, who waswicked in the Lord's eyes, and

(34:00):
then he repented.
Yeah, and then he ruled in away that was pleasing to God,
yeah.
And then at the very end of hislife, he he stumbled again.
But there's this like and guesswhat?
Out of all those kings, I'm themost fascinated with him.
Why?
Because I I I I don't want tobecome him, right?

(34:25):
I don't want to at the end ofmy life to fall away, totally
right, because I too was anevil, wicked person before
Christ.
Now I've come to know the Lordand I'm seeking to serve and
love him, but I don't want tofall away at the end of my life.
So I am fighting anyway.
To to your point, is that'sthat is exactly who the Bible is

(34:47):
written about and written toand written for.
And we are doing a completedisservice when we do our
stories and we don't reflectthat truth.
Absolutely.

Absolutely, and they're all cautionary tales,
and it's all incredible in spiteof us that God uses us.
It is all just pure, sheer,unearned grace that God uses any
of us at all.
It's wild, it'sincomprehensible.
I would never have thepatience.

(35:20):
And yet He does.
And so we sh that's that's ourthat's grace, that's our
religion, that is Christianity.
And so we should be honestabout that, most especially in
our art.
And the thing too about likeart and hard faith and why I say
like I don't make rules forfilmmakers, like whenever I give

(35:40):
a workshop, like at anotherfilm festival, when I'm talking
about it at our hard faith fest.
People always like, all right,so you're hard faith, right?
So you're like PG13 R-rated.
Well, can you do this?
Can you do this?
Can you do this?
Can you do this?
And I'm like, you have a Bibleand you have the Holy Spirit
dwelling inside you.
You have a conscience, youhopefully should have a pastor.

(36:02):
You know, you you have to makeyour own decisions.
I'm not adding more roles ontop of a very comprehensive what
is known for being sufficientfor living a godly life, Bible.
I'm not adding anything on topof scripture on saying what you
can and cannot do.
If you feel like you can depictsomething that most Christian

(36:23):
filmmakers feel like they can'tdepict, and you feel like you
can do it for a biblical reason,and I might not feel
comfortable with that, but youfeel comfortable with that, and
your conscience feelscomfortable with that, that's
okay.
The thing I don't want to do iscreate more rules because I
think most Christian filmmakershave already so many roles.
It's like roles on top of roleson top of roles on top of roles

(36:46):
on top of roles.
You know, they become like thePharisees.
It's like you can't do anythingbut make these family-friendly
films.
And I think that unlike beingmaybe even like a pastor
speaking from a pulpit to ageneral audience or being a
Sunday school teacher, an artistcan be provocative and show the
world in a new way and expandpeople's horizons using art and

(37:08):
using film to make people seetheir situation in a new way and
hopefully turn hearts and thatcan be used in some way.
And I and I think there'sthere's space in art to do that.
So I don't make roles, peoplealways asking for, well, can I
do this?
And I'll, you know, in privateconversation, I'll say, you
know, there's some there'scertainly things I I will not

(37:30):
do.
I'm not saying anything goes.
There's a lot of things I won'tdo, but I'm not making any more
roles because you poorChristian artists already have
way too many roles.
You know, seek the Bible andseek your conscience and pray
about it.

James Duke (37:45):
Yeah, and I think that's that's exactly right.

And that's a lot harder.

James Duke (37:48):
Yeah, and it is, and that but that's what Paul tells
us to do, whether we're makingmovies or making chocolate chip
cookies, right?
Or like he says that our ourconscience has been saved and
redeemed by by Christ.
Therefore, don't go againstyour conscience because our
conscience has been transformedand changed.

(38:08):
And if you go against yourconscience, then you're sinning.
So what is your consciencetelling you?
Like what that's the good, butthat's the that's what freedom
in Christ is.
Freedom in Christ is you'vebeen redeemed, therefore, what's
supposed to have happened isGod has taken your heart of
stone and replaced it with aheart of flesh, which means
we're supposed to have newdesires, new wants, and those

(38:32):
desires have been baptized.
And so it's like, what do we,you know, there's always carnal
struggles.
But if we are, if we are trulyf attempting to follow Christ,
then we can listen to thatconscience because that
conscience is is the Holy hasbeen baptized by the Holy
Spirit, and it's and and and andit can guide us in making those

(38:55):
kind of decisions.

And we'll do it imperfectly and we'll sin while
doing it.
Absolutely, and that's alreadyforgiven.

James Duke (39:01):
Absolutely.

100%.
100%.
We all have different paganmeats, you know?

James Duke (39:06):
Yep.

And if your pagan meat is something and my
pagan meat is something else, Idon't need to push you on your
pagan meat.
And my pagan meat, I will notoffer it to you because you're
not ready for it.

James Duke (39:18):
That's fine.
And by the way, that issomething the edgy filmmaker
needs to hear as well, which isthe higher ideal here is not for
you to be a great authorfilmmaker.
Yeah.
The higher ideal, according toscripture, is for you to love
and care for your fellow man.
Yes.
And so can you still tell thestory, that edgy story you want

(39:40):
to tell, while still being agood caretaker of your fellow
man and not causing them tostumble or lead them astray or
or whatever.
So we we've we've we've, Ithink, successfully discussed
this helping a lot.
I I want to go back though andtalk a little bit about your
films because yes, part of thekind of the birth of your hard
faith.
Uh concept was when I firstheard of you for the first time,

(40:05):
was actually I had not met youyet, but I had read the articles
because you got a lot of pressfor it.
It wasn't your first film, butit was your first kind of hard
faith film called GenerationalSins.
And it was it was famousbecause you were the first.
It became famous because you ormaybe it's infamous, because
you it was being touted as thefirst faith-based film with an

(40:28):
F-word, right?
Or the first Christian filmwith an F word, right?
That's right.
And that F word is not firetruck.
So yep.
So so so I mean, given thisentire conversation that we've
had, right?
Yeah, I'm gonna ask youprobably what everyone used to
ask you back then, which is sowhy did you have to put an F
word in it?
Like why did that have to,right?

(40:49):
Like what was in the making ofthat film and the and the
distribution of that film andthe promotion of that film?
Like what what was what wereyou going for?
Well, first of all, tell peopletell everybody what the movie's
about and then and where theycan find it.
And then and then what was yourwhat was your goal for that
film and and what was yourreaction to the way it was
marketed that way?

Oh man, generational sins, where it all
began.
Yeah, there was a HollywoodReporter article that came out
and it traveled all the press,you know, and it said new
faith-based film filled with fbombs.
It only had one f bomb, it wasnot filled, had one F bomb.
And that came out in May.
Our film didn't come out intheaters until October, but

(41:34):
literally within 48 hours ofthat article coming out, I got
more emails than I'd everreceived in my entire life put
together in 48 hours.
And 90% of those emails werefrom Christians saying you're
going to hell for having a cussword in your movie while also
talking about Jesus.

James Duke (41:54):
Really?

Yep.
Wow.
Yeah.
Wow.
Yep.
So it was 98% hate fromChristians from all around the
world, about 4,000 emails ormore saying, like, you are the
devil.
And I remember right before wedid that interview, which I did

(42:16):
not know that interview wouldcome out that way.
And while we were seeking fordistribution and all the
faith-based distributors turnedus down, my main fellow producer
on that film was a man by thename of Thurman Mason, who I
went and had a seminary classwith.
So I had known him since 2012when I went to seminary.
And even Thurman asked me, youknow, if we just take out this

(42:37):
one F-word, we can go to PureFlix, we can go to, you know,
Lifeway, we can go to all thesepeople, and we'll at least have
a shot at distribution.
But if we keep this word in, noone will touch us.
I remember we went to AFM, andthere were so many Christian
distributors, big, big Christiandistributors who have been in
the game for decades.
And they said, I love themovie, and I love like I legit,

(43:01):
you know, it's a good movie.
It's it's not a high-budgetmovie, but it's a good story,
good movie.
And I love this movie, and Iwant this movie to exist because
my grandchildren will watchthis movie, but I cannot
distribute this movie becausewe're not allowed to distribute
films that have language in it.

James Duke (43:17):
Wow.
Wow.

And I got this from the very, very top-tier
Christian distributors that youand I know.
And they said those exact wordsto me in person and by email.
And I and I and we tried tofind a distributor for over a
year for this film, and we wentwith a secular distributor
because no faith-baseddistributor would touch it.
And I knew it would be easier,so much easier, just to take

(43:43):
that word out and make it frickor anything else, or fire truck,
or just or just remove it.
The movie is calledGenerational Sins.
It's about two brothers whoreturn home to reconcile with
their alcoholic and abusivefather.
It it is inspired by trueevents and stories that I know

(44:05):
of.
And the context in which it thesingular F-word is said is that
the younger brother is callingout the older brother who
abandoned the family andabandoned the younger brother
and the mother while the abusivefather was still abusing the

(44:26):
mom and the younger brother.
And he says to the olderbrother, like, to the extent of
like, where the F were you?
Right.
It's okay.

James Duke (44:35):
You can you can say it on this podcast.
It's okay.

Yeah, he's like, you know, you you fucking left
us, right?
Like, so that's what Will saysto his older brother.
And so I knew that the wordwould be what everyone focused
on.
But the hundred and threeminutes is not focused on that
word.
In fact, that scene and the wayhe pronounces it and says it so

(44:59):
quickly, if you if you blink,you'll miss it.
It's not like it's pronounced,it's not like it's like a big,
you know, he he's a secularactor.
Saying swear words is not a bigdeal to him.
It's said naturally andquickly.
But the purpose of him sayingthat word, just like you know,
if it like a why a policeofficer would use profanity in a

(45:23):
situation, is to try and wakeup the audience and wake up the
older brother, and wake up allof us and the church for the
fact that we care a lot moreabout a made-up word than we do
about an abusive man abusing hiswife and children.

(45:46):
And so the church is going toobsess and care and talk about a
made-up word that did not existwhen scripture was written and
does not mean anything in othercultures, even and and and and
that's the etymology oflanguage.
It means things, and pagan meatmeans things in different

(46:08):
cultures.
But we're gonna care so muchabout pagan meat that we will
not care about the widows andthe orphans and the abused and
the addicts and the suicidal, nomatter what.
And so if I keep saying fuck tomake someone give a damn about

(46:29):
anything else besides theirwhitewashed tomb, I will do that
and I'll take scrutiny becauseI want people to have a
conversation about what the filmis about.
And it's not that four-letterword, it's about everything we
don't talk about, it's about allthe messiness in our church, in

(46:53):
the pulpit, in the pews, thatwe never talk about and never
address because we just don'twant to get dirty.
We don't want to be PG 13, wedon't want to be R-rated, we
just want to be clean, and wejust want to listen to Rich
Mollins' music.
We don't want to know the man.

James Duke (47:12):
Yeah.
Yeah, that's really you know,that's uh first of all, I had no
and you had not told me thatstory.
I did not know that youreceived so much hate.
I mean, I assumed you receivedhate, but I didn't realize it
was not overwhelmed.

It was insane.
I've never received so muchhate in my entire life.
That's crazy.
I've received a lot of hate inmy life, but that was the most.

James Duke (47:28):
Uh this goes back to you know what we were saying.
To me, it's a spiritualmaturity conversation.
And and the argument that Ihave had with people is that
what the pushback I get on thatis uh a spiritually mature
person doesn't use those words.
And my response to that is no,a spiritually mature person
doesn't get offended by thosewords.

(47:48):
Yeah, you you might choose touse them or not use them, but
you're not going to be offendedby them.
Why?
Because you understand exactlywhat you said right there.
You understand the greaterthings at play.
Yeah.
A spiritually mature personsees the greater things at play,
the the deeper things at playthat that that is merely a

(48:11):
simple earthly cultural, quickref just like a flash in the pan
reflection that that acharacter, by the way, who a
truthful performance, right?
That's that's you know, youwere constantly preaching, tell
the truth, tell the truth, andyou have an actor who's who's in
the moment, telling the truthin that moment to that other

(48:32):
character, and all of a suddenthat becomes like you said, what
an entire 103-minute film isabout, which it's not.
So you you survived that, anduh have gone on and done a few
other kind of things.
So the one after that, though,which is interesting, I remember
you uh telling me about thefilm after shooting heroin.
And you I remember you tellingme in the development phase when

(48:56):
you first kind of talk a littlebit about that film.
You what this is kind of yourPennsylvania route, you went
back to shoot this inPennsylvania.
What was the what was theimpetus for shooting heroin?

I was making another movie about sex
trafficking in Las Vegas, and Iflew back home living in Los
Angeles, was location scoutingin Las Vegas, and I flew back
home for another high schoolfriend's funeral for an opioid
heroin overdose.

(49:28):
And as I had I went back homeand I was talking to the you
know the friends and family ofthe deceased, I learned that
since I had been living outsideof Pennsylvania for about 10
years now, that this opioidepidemic had taken over a lot of
rural communities and smalltowns, especially in the

(49:51):
Northeast, but across Americaand rural America and kind of
lower income area, Rust Bow areawhere I come from here in
Pennsylvania.
And I, while I was in town, Italked to, you know, I caught up
with high school friends andpretty much like every single
person I talked to from myserver to you know from my high

(50:12):
school friends to relatives,everyone had one degree of
separation of someone that haddied from an opioid or a heroin
overdose.
And it was just, it was almostlike the Black Plague.
Like it was like it had takenlike a fifth of the population,
especially of young people.
And this person who had passedaway was a straight A student,
was a friend of mine, someonethat you would never imagine who

(50:35):
would ever touch, especially,especially lethal illicit drugs.
And so I just looked into a lotmore, and I realized that a
very pressing topic that I feltcalled to do in most of these
films that I do for hard faithare films that I feel like I
have to do, not necessarilyfilms I want to do.
Sometimes they are, but films Ifeel like I'm called and have
to do.
But was a film on the opioidepidemic to address it because I

(50:57):
felt like there were so manypeople who were suffering in
silence and shame.
They lost a loved one from adrug overdose, but they weren't
even allowed to grieve about itpublicly because, you know, even
if they were trade-age studentor anything else, even if it was
any first time they evertouched heroin and they died,
they were not allowed to grievepublicly about their son or

(51:18):
daughter, father, mother, aunt,or uncle who died because they
died from a drug overdose.
And somehow that's like anunforgivable sin.
Somehow you're not allowed togrieve publicly about that or
have a funeral about that ortalk about that person ever
again.
So I wanted to make a film thataddressed the stigma around the

(51:38):
opioid epidemic and raisedawareness about the opioid
epidemic because it it's itaffects one, it's one degree
separation affecting allAmericans.
And it especially at that timewhen we made it back in 2018 and
it came out in 2020 after atheatrical tour in 2019.
We were the first film thattackled the modern opioid

(52:00):
epidemic head-on.

James Duke (52:01):
Wow.
Wow.
What was the reception like forthe film?
Because I know I think youreleased it during COVID, which
was hard, right?

Uh so the theatrical tour was great.
In 2019, we did a 15-city tour,and we did cities that were
particularly hit by the opioidepidemic, like Philadelphia and
places like that.
And it was really powerful.
We would have members of thecommunity and rehab counselors
and you know, people who hadlost loved ones and and you

(52:29):
know, addicts that were in rehabtalk about the opioid epidemic
before and after the film.
So this tour was a very heavy,weighty tour that we did through
15 cities for six months beforethe film was supposed to come
out leading up to the release inApril of 2020.
And then we had a 500-screenrelease with AMC Independent

(52:52):
that was already paid for, thatwas supposed to happen April 3rd
of 2020.
And then the pandemic happened,and then we got buried, and
then it came out, and it cameout to really positive reviews.
Like Variety O and Gleibermangave us a positive review, and
LA Times gave us a good review,but it just got completely
buried during the pandemic.

(53:14):
No one wanted to talk about theopioid epidemic whenever
everyone was stuck at home, youknow, in a mask mandate.

James Duke (53:20):
I I remember you you've kind of been through some
challenges.
I think some of it started inthe in the pandemic.
You one of the things I loveabout you, Spencer, and I tell
people all the time, I'm like,if you if you are someone who's
afraid of uh afraid of taking arisk, or if you're someone who's
who who's who's who's who'sfearful, if fear I was like, go

(53:44):
beat my friend Spencer.
It's not that Spencer doesn'thave fears, it's that he I I I
tell people sometimes, myhatred, I I hate snakes.
My my thing, my but my thing isis when I see snakes, I I don't
I get angry.
Like my fear, so I get and so Ifind myself like getting I get

(54:06):
angry and I want to go at thesnake and like kill it.
It's terrible, it's a terriblething.
Yeah, I feel like that's theway you are with fear.
I feel like your approach toyour approach to fear is you you
when you become fearful, italmost like it it bursts
something in you.
It's like I'm gonna go burstthrough that fear.
You're you you're one of themost entrepreneurial people I
know.
I'm literally talking to youright now, where you told me

(54:28):
before we started, you'resitting in a an old church that
you and your wife just boughtbecause you thought maybe we can
do something with it, right?
Like you just kind of do thatkind of stuff.
And I remember back then youwere in the midst of creating,
you had, I think you had all youowned two movie theaters at
that point.
You were buying a third, youwere launching a a drive-in

(54:51):
movie theater experience.
You were in the midst of youhad all these investors, you
were doing stuff, and thepandemic came.
And you I don't know if youwant to talk about that, but
it's like not it, it was it wasa challenging season for you.

It's a challenging season for me.
It's interesting.
My wife and I have talked abouta lot this year, and f and I'll
and I'll just say this quick,real fun plug.
The theme of Hard Faith Fest of2026 in Los Angeles, June 25th
through June 28th, is do notfear.
Because I think fear is whatsets us back the most, and it's

(55:30):
the number one most commandmentcommand in all of scripture is
do not fear.
It's said that there's over 365instances of do not fear in
scripture, one for every day ofthe year.
And so God's people are notsupposed to be fearful people.
Yet, so often we live in fear,and I think that the church is

(55:51):
often ruled by fear.
A lot of the things that we doand we say, and the way we
divide, and the way we try torule is through fear, and even
the way the art we make isfear-based instead of overcoming
fear and not being fearful ofman and not being fearful of so
many things.
And so I'm constantly trying tofigure out how to overcome

(56:13):
fear.
And I have had I have thisplaylist on my phone.
I have many curated playlists,and one of them is called
Spencer 12.0.
And there have been 12, it'slike a 12th version of myself,
and it's all me, but at each ofthose points, there has been a

(56:34):
major setback or like adestruction of my life, either
by myself or by others, or byGod.
And it happened even before Iwas walking with the Lord.
But but yes, during thepandemic, I experienced an
incredible death of self and egobecause I was building an

(56:57):
independent theater chain calledVeritas Arts.
And we had three historicindependent theaters, and we
were building a five-screendrive-in theater in Orlando,
Florida, and I had investors,and I had been working on this
for about five years, and it allfell apart in that two weeks to

(57:20):
flatten the curve.
You know, no new materials withfilms, and I had personally
invested every penny I had savedto keep the theaters open and I
kept paying employees because Ithought this crazy weird virus
thing would go away, and then Iwould continue this dream, and

(57:40):
it didn't go away, and I wentcompletely broke, not bankrupt,
but should have, and losteverything that I had been
working on for including all mysavings of 10 years.
I lost it all in a few monthsin 2020.

(58:00):
And ironically, I thought 2020was going to be my year.
I went to New York City andwatched the ball drop because I
thought this is gonna be theroaring 20s.
The economy was great.
Gonna make the largestindependent theater chain
besides Adam O'Draft House, youknow, the maybe even bigger than
them.
And I just love the theatergoing business.
I had just opened my firstrestaurant, steak and seafood

(58:24):
restaurant that was themed aftercinema.
I had really overexerted myselfand everything went to a
screaming halt, and I losteverything.
And I had nothing.
I didn't even have money tolike fill up my gas tank.
I lost everything.
And in losing everything, I gotreally reconnected with the
Lord.
I got really back to basics.

(58:46):
I realized how much emphasis Iwas putting on building
sandcastles.
And I met my wife.
And now I have a beautifultwo-year-old daughter.

James Duke (58:57):
Well, you and but to be clear, like I want because I
want the audience to take it isyou you met your wife because
this season in your life was sohard.
You had no choice but toretreat.
You had to retreat and you hadto go be with family.

I lived with my sister in Florida.

James Duke (59:11):
Yeah, and you and and it was because of that she
was like, come to church withme, right?
Yep.

Yeah, and I saw my wife in the choir at my
sister's church.
When I had lost everything.
I've had a few that was like abig joke moment in my life.
That was probably my biggestjoke moment of my life.
And and thank God, out of thatlow point, out of that valley, I

(59:40):
met like my greatest gift inlife, which is my wife.

James Duke (59:44):
And now you have a two and a half old two and two
two and a yeah, two year old.

Yeah, two year, two and a half year old, yeah.

James Duke (59:51):
Yeah.

Little Margaret.

James Duke (59:53):
Which is crazy.
That's awesome.

He's a firecracker and full of life and
vibe.

James Duke (59:57):
And which then leads me.
To then you know, obviouslyanother challenge.
So in combination, so yourlatest film, which is available
now on Prime and on Angel, or ifeveryone can watch, it's called
Saint Nick of Bethlehem.
It's a very sweet Christmasfilm.
And and there were you know,I'm sure there were some highs

(01:00:20):
in making that film, but thenafterwards there was another,
you know, very even morechallenging than 2020 for you.
And you and your wife hadgotten pregnant with your second
child, and there were some someserious, serious complications.
And your second daughter wasborn, and but she only uh was

(01:00:45):
only with us for for how long?

Spencer Folmar (01:00:48):
Yeah, on on January 7th of this year of
2025, Mary Claire, our seconddaughter, after spending six
weeks in the hospital when mywife's water broke early.
She lived for seven hours andthen passed away in her arms.

James Duke (01:01:02):
Yeah.

And my wife almost died that day, too, as a
complicated surgery, and it didnot go well, and nothing went
well that day.
And thankfully, my wife didlive.
And Mary Claire lived for sevenhours and passed away.
And then the day after we gotout of the hospital, four days
later, we buried Mary Claire inour backyard here and had a

(01:01:29):
little funeral with the family.

You know, one of so much of our conversation today
has been about real life and thekind of the the that life is
gutter balls, right?
And here you are, the highs andlows, the ups and downs of
life.
And here you are on on set withuh making a very joyful

(01:01:56):
Christmas movie.
Right.
Like probably easily the mostjoyful movie you've made.
You agree?
And yeah, and and and then andthen and then your wife starts
having these complications,right?
And to go from that high tothat low, what I know I know
it's still fresh, it hasn't evenbeen a full year yet, but what

(01:02:20):
if any had been just somelessons or takeaways for that
season in your life that youwould share with us?

So like I said, I converted to Christianity when
I was 21.
I'm 36 now.
So I've been walking,stumbling, crawling with the
Lord for 15 years.
I've had other even before thepandemic, I've had other seasons
where I felt like I wasstumbling in the dark, trying to

(01:02:55):
free find the light.
When McKenna's water broke likedays after Thanksgiving, and we
began our six weeks in thehospital, you know, at the
beginning it was very all theall the doctors were pretty much

(01:03:17):
already saying, like, I'msorry, like you're gonna lose
the baby.
And I felt I I I really wantedto be obviously an anchor of
strength for McKenna, my wife,and for our family, and and be a
man of great faith and havegreat faith, and be as
optimistic and realistic, but asuh full of faith as possible.

(01:03:41):
And so I and I heard everythingthe doctor said, and I just
kept believing that God could doanything and the miraculous
could happen.
And miraculously, you know,McKenna made it another week,
like the first 48 hours afterthe water broke.
That's whenever Mary Claireshould have passed away.

(01:04:04):
And then we made it a week, andthen we made it two weeks, and
then we made it four weeks, andthen she was viable, and then we
made it six weeks, and herheart was stronger a week beyond
her gestation period.
Her weight was more than hergestation period.
And by like the third week,because it was such a long haul,

(01:04:26):
and we missed the theatricaltour last year for St.
Nick and so many things, we wedecided to make it public, which
we're typically not that publicwith our private life, but we
decided to make it public thatwe were living in the hospital
because my wife, you know, herwater broke, and we were praying
for the best result for ourbaby, but we weren't sure if

(01:04:47):
that best result is what wasmost realistic.
And we had this amazing, quitethe opposite of the release of
that news article, but we hadthis amazing outpouring of love
from people I hadn't heard ofsince elementary school.
You know, it was like it's awonderful life.
It was just, I I heard fromthousands of people saying that

(01:05:13):
we're praying for you, we'repraying for your wife, we're
praying for Mary Claire, youknow, you're in our bulletin and
our church.
And I've I've lived a lot ofplaces, like I've moved like 40
times in my life and and andlived overseas quite a bit.
But so, like internationalfriends, crazy.

(01:05:33):
And I was just like, I've neverever been prayed for, no one's
ever been prayed for.
I've never seen anything prayedfor, I've never been part of
something so prayed for in mylife.
Even at the hometown premierefor St.
Nick last year, you know, itwas a sold-out screening that my
wife and I were supposed toattend, and there was like 600

(01:05:54):
people there.
And the entire theater beforethe movie showed prayed for us
while we're in the theater.
While we're in the hospital andwe watched our live stream.
Wow, wow.

I mean, my men, my men's group was praying.
My men's group was praying.

It's amazing.
And this whole year, you know,I I we're we're like shopping at
Walmart or we're walking aroundor anything, and people come up
and they're like, We werepraying for you.
So, like this tremendousoutpouring of love.
And so I just I like you youcould have shot me and I would
have said she's gonna make it,Mary Claire's gonna live, and

(01:06:32):
this is all gonna be okay.
And uh yeah.
So when you know, when shedidn't live, when she flatlined,
when she was placed in her armsand stopped breathing, it just
it it hit me like a ton ofbricks, and uh it was just so

(01:06:54):
hard for a long time, you know,like those months after losing
Mary Claire, and my wife was inreally, really rough shape.
I mean, she was cut twice anduh unable to walk or move or
stand, you know, for three orfour months.
Like I can maybe remember afterthe funeral two or three days.

(01:07:20):
You know, it was just it wasjust a it it was just a
tremendous valley of grief thatI have never experienced before.
And I've and I've I'm prone todepression.
I've had a lot of depression inmy life throughout my life, but
this was just something I'venever experienced before.

(01:07:41):
And I had a lot of wrestlingwith God, a lot of hard faith, a
lot of wrestling with God aboutwhat happened, how did this
happen, and what do I do now?
And like how how do wecontinue?
How do we get on?
And it's just it's it's it'slike a lot of things, a lot of

(01:08:05):
ways God has answered mydeepest, most challenging
theological questions andpetitions in life.
I just keep asking him the samequestion over and over again,
sometimes for months andsometimes for years.
And I never get an answer, butsomehow, somehow, I get peace.

(01:08:33):
And that's what inexplicablyhappened after about four or
five months.
And what was even crazier isthat you know, we announced
these hard faith film festivalsa year in advance, open up
submissions as soon as the lastone ends.
And so we knew that Hard FaithFest was coming up in July, and

(01:08:55):
we were still in the throes ofrecovery.
And McKenna was you know, hadgiven away all her, you know,
like weddings because she stillcouldn't walk.
And you know, we were just thiswas our first public event out
was Hard Faith Fest talkingabout hard faith, but also like
talking about God, and we werereally struggling, wrestling

(01:09:15):
with God still, still am.
And and it was it was it was itwas surprisingly shockingly,
even though like uh we can weconsidered canceling it, but it
was a really healing, beautifulevent, Hard Faith Fest in
Hollywood this past year.

(01:09:36):
And at the end, one of mymentees from the Hollywood
Prayer Network prayed forMcKenna and I and prayed about
healing after losing Mary Claireto close out the festival.
And so it's just been reallykind of putting one foot in
front of the other.
It's been hard faith in a waythat I talk about or have talked

(01:10:00):
about in the past, but hadn'twalked through in such a way and
didn't anticipate walkingthrough.
I just felt like I I've beenthrough a lot in my life, you
know, much, much, much worsethan the 2020 incident.
And I just assumed, and mypeople that know me well assume

(01:10:23):
like, you know, he's beenthrough enough.
Like, Job didn't have likemultiple Job episodes, and so I
just did not think this was inthe bingo cards, but it was
unexpected and devastating andstill is.
And you know, now we're comingup on our one-year anniversary,
so we talk about it all thetime.
But right before I got on thispodcast, McKenna and I were

(01:10:44):
talking about it.
And we are, you know, we didanother festival in New York
City just because we're so crazyand we really like doing Hard
Faith Fest because I think it'sreally helpful for us too.
But it's it's like if you ifyou had asked me what this year
would be like in January or likeeven in December, November,

(01:11:05):
whenever McKinnon's water broke,I would just be like, well,
2025, nothing good could haveever happened.
Like there's there's not oneday that the sun would rise.
And, you know, thankfully,there have been some really
great days and some reallybeautiful things and moments,
and you know, life continues on.

(01:11:26):
And I know one day, you know,she'll she'll be there.
The crazy, the craziest thingabout Saint Nick is that I
started writing that script 10years ago.
And the movie, even though it'sthis great holiday Christmas
movie, the movie is about one ofmy good friends from high
school.
He lost his only son, who was20 years old.

(01:11:48):
He lost his only son, andthrough his grieving process
became Santa Claus to kids inthe community that didn't have a
father figure.
And so I did a podcast with himrecently, and I was like, you
know, something that was alwayscrazy about your life, Alan, is
that like, you know, in shootingheroin, when I made that movie,
I met so many parents thatafter they lost their kids, they

(01:12:10):
just kind of stopped living,right?
Like they just became showlersor ghosts of themselves, you
know, they just they'd lost thewill to live.
And he said, and I said, What'sso amazing about you is that
you lost your only son, and it'slike you do this Santa thing
and you do this Christmas thingmore than ever.

(01:12:32):
And he said, like, you know,every day I know my boy is in
heaven, and I'm I'm still hisdad, like I'm still trying to
make him proud.
And he said, like, you have onedaughter here, and you have a
daughter in heaven, and like yougotta make her proud every day.
So it's been insane.

(01:12:54):
I don't know how my wife and Iare here, and I don't know how
we're doing anything, but inspite of all of it, God has been
really good despite how damnhard it's been.

Thank you for sharing that.
I I know it's you know, it'sstill very much raw, and you're
still figuring stuff out, andyou're still asking those
questions over and over again,which by the way, that is that
is literally what we're supposedto do.
We're supposed to fill our daysasking those kind of questions,

(01:13:31):
and God wants us to ask thosekind of questions.
But certainly as your friend,watching you from afar walk this
out, it's been it's beenbeautiful to see you and your
wife cling to each other andcling to Margaret and continue
to be such a blessing to so manypeople.
I I will say, you know,watching Saint Nick, so

(01:13:53):
transitioning the theconversation a little bit to as
we wrap up here, just aboutabout your latest film, which is
available now, Saint Nick ofBethlehem.
This Christmas very sweetChristmas film is like you said,
is very much about grief.
And it is a driving force tothe plot.
And and I I I do think that youknow Dan Lynn said to me one

(01:14:16):
time that for him, film istherapy.
I I I I think for you, I don'tthink it's it's it's lost on
anyone that you know thistragedy that has happened after
you make a film about acharacter who's lost their son
and and how that has inspired somuch of their life to give back

(01:14:41):
and make a difference in otherpeople's lives.
I I do feel like not only isfilm therapy in many ways it can
also be prophecy.
And I and I and I do see thatin a in a weird way, Spencer,
you you are also that guy.
And that you don't dress up asSanta Claus, but you make films

(01:15:05):
that will actually bring healingand hope and and and in so many
ways to so many to so manypeople.
And you know, I just wanted youto know that.

So thank you, brother.

Yeah, so same nick is you can find it on you can
find it on Angel, you can findit on Prime.
And so you made it 2024.
You it you had some screeningsof it at the end of 2024, right?
Christmas, but this is kind of2025 was the the main Christmas
season for it, right?
And how how's the receptionbeen on it so far?

It's been really, really good, shockingly,
and I just don't know how it'spossible, and neither does
Angel.
It's for the last week, it'sbeen the number one movie on
Angel, which is really great.
Yeah, and they emailed me andthey're they they told me this,
they alerted me to this, andthey're like, This is surprising
to us.
And I was like, it's surprisingto me too, because this is a

(01:15:57):
low budget independent film, andit's not an Angel Original, and
we did not have a big budget ora big marketing budget, but I'm
really glad the audiences areliking it because we there's a
lot of sweat equity in thatmovie, and it's very per it's
very personal.
Yeah, they like it.

And and just real quick on that, you you know, you
you you're credited asco-writer and co-director with
with the star of the film,Daniel Robuck, who our audience
would know him as, you know,he's been in tons of stuff as
art, you know, from Lost and allthese other great things that
he's been in.
The the the one of my favoritesis is the Harrison Ford film,

(01:16:35):
The Fugitive.
He's in the future.
Oh, yeah.
But so what was that like?
What's the process of write ofof co-writing and co-directing
something with someone?
Was that challenging?
Does that is that something youwould ever do again?
Like, what's your thoughts onthat?

It's interesting, it's really
interesting.
I it I have co-written scriptsbefore, like Generational Sins.
I co-wrote that with my cousinDax, who plays the brother Will,
who says the infamous F-word.
So I've co-written quite a fewscripts of solo written scripts
I've never co-directed before.
Dan and I have been connectedfor about eight years.

(01:17:13):
He made a Catholic Christianmovie in his hometown in
Bethlehem, Pennsylvania, abouteight years ago.
It was his first film he evermade called Getting Grace, and
it was about death, and it wasabout an undertaker, and it's a
really beautiful film.
And he submitted it to a filmfestival I was doing back when I

(01:17:34):
had the theater chain calledVeritas Film Festival, named
after the theater chain.
And one of the categories forthe film festival was Hard Faith
before it had just its own HardFaith Film Festival.
And Dan grew up in the LehighValley in Pennsylvania, and he
submitted this beautiful movie,and it really is a beautiful
film, and we connected then, andhe wasn't able to attend it the

(01:17:57):
festival because he was filmingsome sitcom or something.
But we connected then, and wehad this Pennsylvania
connection, we had thisChristian connection, so we got
dinner at the Smokehouse inBurbank, as you do, both living
out in LA at that time, and wejust stay connected ever since.
He was supposed to be thesheriff in shooting heroin, but

(01:18:19):
he got another job then andwasn't able to be in the film.
But we're we always just keptsaying we're gonna work on
something together.
Then whenever we went to buy,my wife and I went to buy our
Christmas tree from the parkinglot in Burbank at Lowe's.
I saw Daniel and he had a redcoat on and he was uncut and

(01:18:40):
unshaven, and his hair wasn'tdyed.
And I said to my wife, wouldn'the make a great Santa Claus?
Because my wife and I had onour first, our very first date
was on Christmas Eve five yearsago this Christmas Eve.
And I told her I was writing aChristmas movie called St.
Nick.
And so she really kicked my assto finally finish that script

(01:19:03):
and make the film happen.
So that year I announced inlike the summertime, I'm making
Saint Nick.
I don't know how, I haven'traised any money, but I finished
the script and I'm gonna makeit.
So, you know, whenever we'rebuying our tree a couple months
months later, I saw Danny in theparking lot, and I and so I
went up to him and I said, Haveyou ever considered playing
Santa Claus?

(01:19:23):
And he said, It's like alifelong dream role of mine.
I said, Well, I'm gonna sendyou a script.
I want you to consider playingthe role.
So he read the script and heloved the script, but he said,
you know, instead of settingthis in Central PA, where I I'm
from, he said, You should reallyset it in Bethlehem,
Pennsylvania, which is the veryfirst Christmas city in America.

(01:19:44):
You know, it predates thecountry as well.
And that's where I'm from, andI've made movies there, so I
have like a crew there.
And he said, like, you know,I'll I'll let me take a pass at
it and adapting it to Bethlehem,Pennsylvania.
I'll I want I have some ideasfor some additional characters
and some more comedy becauseit's so depressing.

(01:20:05):
I think we need some comedy andlevity.
And I'm really good at that.
And I know you're really goodat the depressing stuff.
And he was a big fan ofshooting heroin.
And so he he did a pass on thescript.
And I had no idea, you know,because I I thought the script
was perfect how it was.
And I read his version.
And Saint Nick, to be honest,it was a real struggle.
And I did write it for likenine years because it's a

(01:20:28):
Christmas movie, it's a genre ontop of a genre, and people
expect some Christmas elements.
And I had written a verydepressing movie about a guy
losing his you know son andeverything else.
And the the first version I hadwas much, much sadder.
And Dan's like, I need to addsome levity to this, like a

(01:20:48):
little bit of a spoonful ofsugar helps medicine go down.
And so his version he wroteadded a lot of the humor and the
comedy and the brother and someadditional characters.
And then my version was likethe romance and the mom and
stuff like that, and obviouslylosing the son and the church
and the theology.
And so those versions togetherbecame Saint Nick of Bethlehem,

(01:21:12):
set it in his hometown.
He came on as a producer,helped produce it with me,
fundraise with me, and then cameon as a co-director in his
hometown, where he's made acouple films.
And then we and then we dancedtogether for two years.

And and how does one co-direct?
What would you what was thatprocess like?

It's interesting.
I had no idea because I've seenit happen, you know, like
everything everywhere all atonce.
Like that's a co-directing,they want an Oscar for it, but I
didn't know how that worked outpractically.
I'd heard rumors of it.
It's also really interestingbecause unlike everything
everywhere all at once, none ofthose directors were the lead.
Danny was the lead.
So it's like, you know, anactor is an actor.

(01:21:57):
And when when you're acting,you really want them to act.
You don't want them thinkingabout everything else, the
lighting and everything else.
As co-directors, what I wouldtry to do, and I don't think
Danny and I have said this outloud, and you know, I I would
hope that he would agree withthis, but what I tried to do is
we would walk througheverything, you know, in

(01:22:19):
rehearsal.
We would walk througheverything in the setup and the
lighting with the DP with thelens, everything.
Stand in for him.
And then he would take off whenhe was in the scene, when he
was the lead in the scene, themain character in the scene.
I would really try to have himtake off his directing hat.
And trust me, because he has tonow act, right?

(01:22:42):
Like it's hard to direct, act,and produce at the same time.
He still was directing, he wasstill co-directing.
It's not like he gave up thatrule or that credit.
But I think even as wecontinued to work together, it
was a it it became a four and ahalf week shoot altogether,
broken up into two periods.

(01:23:03):
But as the production went on,and you know, I'm I'm I'm you
know, he has I don't know, youknow, he's worked with Andy
Griffith and and has worked oneverything, and I and and I'm an
independent filmmaker, half hisage.
As we continue to worktogether, we began to trust each
other more, coming at this atdifferent perspectives,

(01:23:26):
different angles, differentintuition.
And I learned a lot from him,and I think he would say the
same.
And by the end, by like thelast two weeks, we really just
like had a shorthand dancing intandem.
Like it really workedincredibly be beautifully.
And I don't think it could workthat well with everyone, but it

(01:23:49):
worked really well with Dan andI.
And I learned a lot from Dantoo, because like even though I
feel extremely old just fromputting so many miles on this
vessel, I know Dan has this oldschool Hollywood experience that
you know is hard to even gettoday, just because Hollywood
has changed so much and has justbeen working in the industry

(01:24:10):
since he was 19.
You know, he's been working inthe industry for 45 years.
And so I I I honestly did learna lot from him.
Learned a lot about comedy andhumor, which I've never touched.
Learned a lot about you know,storytelling and story writing
and and how to work with actors,and you know, it it was a

(01:24:32):
really symbiotic relationship.
And I think the very bestpossible version of Saint Nick
for audiences and for tellingthat story well came out of that
collaboration.

That's really good.
I well, I I think that it's funto see you know, whenever I
hear co-directing, I'm like, Idon't how does that work
exactly?
But then the fact that he's thelead and he does a really good
job in the film.
I thought, okay, well, I canmaybe see why if he's acting and
you're behind the camera, youknow.
But but I love hearing that hisinfluence on you too, because

(01:25:08):
he has he's been in everythingfor for years and everything,
yeah, tremendous.

And even just like working with Andy Griffith,
you know, for like you know,seven years on MATLOC.
I mean, it's just like youknow, that's that's that's
pretty amazing.
That's cool.

Spencer, this has been such a joy, and you I I
always I always love talking toyou, and I just feel like you
you're able to see things in away that I think is very
clarifying for other people andand and the ways in which you're
able to communicate it as well.
So congratulations on St.
Nick of Bethlehem.
Hope things work out for otherstuff I'm sure you got going on.

(01:25:45):
If you would you want to tellpeople about just real quick the
Hard Faith Film Festival andwhat's going on with that, how
they can be involved?

Absolutely.
So go to hardfaith.org, sign upfor our newsletter.
We're doing a lot of stuff.
We're doing more and morestuff.
I can hardly keep up with allthe stuff that we're doing.
But the biggest thing that wedo every year is Hard Faith Fest
in LA.
It's going to be from June 25ththrough June 28th.
It's a four-day event.
It's taking place in the heartof Hollywood.
We have outgrown all three ofthe venues that we've used

(01:26:13):
previously.
We've outgrown last year'svenue.
We're going to announce the newvenue, which is very exciting
here soon.
But you can submit yourscreenplay, your short film,
your feature film, yourdocumentary, your student film,
your experimental film atHardfaithFest.com or at
filmfreeway.com backslashhardfaith.

I'm always out of town.
You can always do it in thesummertime when I'm at the time.
I know.
Maybe this year I'll be intown.
I don't know.
We'll see.
Um congratulations oneverything, buddy.
I'm super proud of you and andGod bless you.
And what we always do at theend of our podcast is I always
pray for our guests.
Would you allow me to pray foryou?

Yes, please.
Thank you, brother.

Heavenly Father, we just thank you so much for the
chance to be here with todaywith my brother Spencer.
I'm just so grateful for him,grateful for just his heart for
you, the way you havetransformed him and reshaped him
and remolded him over thesepast 15 years.
And so many seeds that you'veplanted in him are coming to
bloom.

(01:27:18):
And it's just a beautiful thingto see.
And we're we're just thankfulfor that.
God, I just pray a blessingupon his marriage, his family,
his sweet daughter, andeverything they've got going on,
not only in Pennsylvania, buthere in LA.
And just pray a blessing uponhis future projects and just
pray you'd go before him andcontinue to keep him courageous
for you and to fight throughthose fears.

(01:27:40):
And I just thank you for thisopportunity to speak today.
And we pray this in Jesus' nameand your promise as we stand.
Amen.
Thank you for listening to theAct One podcast.
Celebrating over 20 years asthe premier training program for
Christians in Hollywood.
Act One is a Christiancommunity of entertainment
industry professionals who trainand equip storytellers to

(01:28:00):
create works of truth, goodness,and beauty.
The Act One program is adivision of Master Media
International.
To financially support themission of Act One or to learn
more about our programs, visitus online at Act OneProgram.com.
And to learn more about thework of Master Media, go to
MasterMedia.com.

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