April 8, 2025 • 31 mins
When most doctors hear "NCMIC," they immediately think malpractice insurance—but as President David Siebert reveals, that's just scratching the surface. Founded in 1946 by chiropractors for chiropractors, NCMIC has evolved into a comprehensive resource offering everything from business insurance to financial services tailored specifically for the profession.
What distinguishes NCMIC from competitors? Their impressive 300+ years of collective claims experience makes a profound difference when defending chiropractors. As a mutual company answering to policyholders rather than shareholders, NCMIC takes a long-term approach that has allowed them to return over $170 million in dividends to doctors over 25 consecutive years. Their board, predominantly comprised of chiropractors, ensures decisions always prioritize the profession's best interests.
For doctors facing potential claims, NCMIC offers critical guidance through what can be an emotionally challenging process. Their "consent to settle" policy guarantees doctors maintain control over their professional reputation, as no case settles without the doctor's written permission. Siebert shares how NCMIC will invest significantly in legal defense when a doctor wants their day in court, even when settlement might be less expensive—because protecting a chiropractor's reputation matters more than saving money.
Beyond malpractice coverage, NCMIC offers business insurance, specialized long-term disability policies that understand chiropractors' unique needs, and personal lines including home and auto insurance. Their financial arm provides transparent merchant processing without long-term contracts, equipment loans, business credit cards, and premium financing options. They've become a true one-stop solution for chiropractic practice needs.
The company's commitment extends to supporting over 200 chiropractic events annually, providing campus resources, risk management training, and their "Starting Into Practice" program. The NCMIC Foundation has invested more than $10 million in research that's opening doors for chiropractors in integrated healthcare settings. With growing public interest in preventative care post-pandemic, Siebert sees a bright future ahead for the profession.
Discover how NCMIC can help protect and grow your practice with solutions designed specifically for chiropractors. Call today to learn more about their comprehensive services beyond malpractice insurance.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
Hi, I'm Dr Arnold Ford, the Chairman and Founder
of Activator MethodsInternational.
Welcome to Activate yourPractice podcast.
Today we are honored to havethe President of NCMIC, that's
the National Chiropractic MutualInsurance Company, in case you
don't know what NCMIC is.
And today we have the President, David Siebert, here.
(00:24):
And David, welcome, we're gladto have you.
You know, tell us a little bitabout.
Everybody thinks that NCMIC hasnothing but chiropractic
malpractice.
Now we know better because youinsure all of our things for
activator in the corporate world.
But just tell the folks alittle bit about what NCMIC does
(00:48):
besides chiropracticmalpractice.
Speaker 2 (00:52):
Yeah, so thanks for the question, doctor.
It's hard to talk about NCMICwithout mentioning the
chiropractic piece.
But we are much more than justa chiropractic malpractice
insurance company.
Just to remind everyone, ifthey don't know, we were founded
back in 1946 by chiropractorsfor chiropractors.
That remains who we are today,but we're certainly much more
(01:16):
than just malpractice insurance.
We have in-house a full serviceinsurance agency now so we can
essentially provide anyinsurance products that a doctor
or their office might need.
We also have a finance companyand within that finance company
we have a full suite offinancial products that are
really built around helping toallow chiropractic practices to
(01:40):
grow and prosper.
And again, everything we do isreally built around
chiropractors.
So the products that we havebeyond the malpractice insurance
really have come to us becausewe've had questions from doctors
asking about these products andexpressing an interest in them,
and so we would listen and thenover time we're like we should
probably offer that product.
Speaker 1 (02:00):
So, in other words, if you want your office
equipment insured and that kindof thing, you're in place to do
that.
Speaker 2 (02:08):
Absolutely, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (02:10):
Now tell me, do you do auto insurance and things
like that?
I have not.
I didn't know if you did ordidn't do auto, and how home,
and so forth.
Speaker 2 (02:20):
Yeah, we actually do so.
We do what you would callpersonal lines in insurance.
I actually have my car and myhome insured through our agency.
I think I saved about $1,000,if you can believe it a year
(02:45):
California right now, or inFlorida Not always something we
can do there, but we found thata lot of our doctors haven't
really shopped their coverageand they haven't even talked to
their agent in months, if notyears.
So when we get them on thephone, we'll offer them the
opportunity to take a look attheir coverages and oftentimes
we can save them money and offermore expansive coverage than
they currently have.
Speaker 1 (03:03):
Well, I was shocked, watching the news the other
night, to see that 70% of theCalifornia fire victims did not
have insurance.
And I mean you're looking at$2,027,000,000 houses and no
insurance.
What separates NCMIC from otherproviders in insurance for car
(03:24):
breakers?
Speaker 2 (03:26):
Yeah, so you know, I think first and foremost, it's
our experience.
I mentioned 1946.
We have literally handledthousands upon thousands of
claims.
We have a team here that isexperienced.
I think we have over 300 yearsof claims experience within our
claims team.
Beyond that experience, we arean insurance carrier, we're not
(03:50):
a broker, and why that'simportant is that when you have
a question, when you have aclaim, when you have an issue,
when you call us, we're going tohandle that.
If you work with a broker, thecarrier will change from time to
time and you could have a greatcarrier, but they may not
understand what chiropractic isabout and they may not know how
(04:11):
to defend the chiropractor.
I can tell you that defendingchiropractors is much different
than defending other health careproviders.
You need to understand thelanguage.
You need to understand whatchiropractors do.
We are also a mutual insurancecompany and the beauty of that
is we don't answer toshareholders.
We answer to our policyholdersand that means that we can make
(04:33):
decisions with a very long-termview, thinking 10, 20 years
ahead, not having to worry abouta shareholder call or something
on the short-term horizon.
The things that we do we reallythink about is this good for
the profession.
Are we taking care of ourpolicyholders Us being a mutual
insurance company also meansthat we can declare a
(04:56):
policyholder dividend, whichwe've now done for over 25 years
in a row.
I checked.
We've given back over $170million in premium to our
doctors, which is something thatreally no one else in this
space can do.
The other piece I would mentionis that we're also a company
led by chiropractors.
We have a board of directorsthat is primarily made up of
(05:18):
chiropractors.
They keep us honest.
They make sure that we continuethat mission of helping to grow
chiropractic, really focusingon taking care of the profession
.
And then our leader, dr WayneWilson.
He's the president of NCMICGroup and he's also our chairman
of the board.
He's a chiropractor and eachand every day he's thinking
(05:38):
about the things that we dothrough the lens of being a
chiropractor.
Speaker 1 (05:44):
Walk us through what happens to a doctor in the event
of a claim.
I mean, somebody calls them upand says I'm going to sue you.
What are the steps that thedoctor should do?
Because I mean, I've heardthings like never call a patient
back, and that's what thedoctor always wants to do,
that's just natural to call back.
But the answer is you don't.
(06:05):
You call NCMIC, isn't thatcorrect?
Speaker 2 (06:08):
Yes, I mean, the best advice I can give and I'm an
old claims guy would be to pickup the phone and call NCMIC.
For some reason, you know,sometimes doctors are a little
nervous about calling in.
I can assure you that NCMIC oryour other carrier, if you have
one they're here to help you andultimately they will be able to
(06:32):
walk you through the process.
More likely than not, you'regoing to be feeling a lot of
anxiety.
You're going to be stressed outabout it, because it's very
personal when you have dedicatedyour life to helping patients
and then you have a patientessentially alleged that you
caused them harm.
So we talked to a lot ofdoctors who are really upset and
we can kind of talk them offthe ledge, let them know they're
(06:56):
not alone.
You know you can have a claimif you're the best doctor in the
world, but we let them knowwhat to expect.
And there are kind of two paths.
Well, there's actually three.
So the first path would be justbecause a patient makes a
complaint doesn't mean it's aclaim.
Yet you could have a patientthat, just in passing, said
something that caused you to beconcerned.
(07:16):
In that situation we'll talkwith the doctor, we'll agree on
the best course of action, whichcould be to call the patient,
but again, you want to hear thatfrom your carrier before you do
that.
The other paths would be let'ssay you get a letter from an
attorney, or let's say you get aletter from a patient that is
demanding money.
At that point you shoulddefinitely call in CMIC and we
(07:38):
would open up a claim.
In that situation you wouldwork with one of our claims
adjusters.
We would investigate that claim.
You'd be a part of the process.
We would likely have an expertreview, the medical records and
then we would share with youtheir findings and then we would
agree on a course of action.
The other path for this would be, if there's a lawsuit, if
(07:59):
you're actually sued, that's alittle more serious.
In that situation we actuallyretain a defense attorney.
This would be an attorney whois experienced in defending
chiropractors.
This would be someone thatwe've vetted, that we've worked
with in the past.
They would be close to youroffice and they would kind of be
your lifeline through thatprocess.
Our claims team would continueto work with you, but you'd work
(08:21):
very closely with the attorneyto kind of navigate the legal
process, which can beintimidating and it can take a
while, but the important thingto know is, throughout this
process, ncmic is here to help.
And then another piece ofinformation I would share is
that I think there sometimes isconcern that if you turn a claim
in that an insurance company isjust going to settle it and our
(08:43):
doctors have what's called aconsent to settle policy, which
means that NCMIC cannot and willnot settle any cases unless a
doctor gives us written consentto do so.
We wouldn't do that anyway, butit keeps us honest and it means
that there will be aconversation between us and the
doctor and if the fact patterndoesn't look good, we're going
(09:06):
to have a conversation with thedoctor.
We're going to lay it out forthem.
But if that doctor wants theirday in court, we're going to
respect that.
And we've had those situationsbefore where it could be that
the case was very defensible.
It could have been settled fora nuisance amount of money let's
say $5,000.
But if that doctor wants theirday in court, we'll spend
(09:28):
$200,000 on an attorney to gothrough trial to get that result
that the doctor wants.
At the end of the day, that's awin for the doctor, because
it's their reputation on theline, and it's a win for us
because we're probably going tobe discouraging that attorney
from coming back again trying toget money from a chiropractor.
Speaker 1 (09:47):
What is NCMIC doing to keep up to date from a
business perspective?
Speaker 2 (09:53):
Yeah, that's a very timely question.
We actually did a majorinvestment in a new policy
administration system back inlate 2024, as well as a
customer-facing portal, and thishas not been a smooth
transition for everyone, I cantell you.
I have to own that Technologycan be challenging at times and
(10:17):
some of our insureds theexperience wasn't great.
I've actually had the honor,the opportunity, to talk to a
lot of our doctors over the pastfew months through this process
and I've had to apologize attimes because the process wasn't
as smooth as it should havebeen.
But the one silver lining inthis for me has been that I've
(10:39):
talked to so many doctors whohave been with NCMIC for 30, 40,
50 years.
During the conversation theywere very patient.
They understood that sometimeswhen you make a change it's
difficult.
But I also heard stories fromthem about why they're with
NCMIC.
I heard stories about claimsthat occurred 20 years ago.
They remembered all the facts.
(11:00):
They remembered the claimsadjuster they worked with.
They were so thankful to havestuck with NCMIC through it all.
So each and every day isgetting better for us with this
new technology change that wewent through and I'm confident
that ultimately we're going tohave an improved customer
experience.
We certainly have additionalsecurity now within all of our
(11:20):
platforms, but it's beenchallenging for us and it's kept
us on our toes.
Speaker 1 (11:25):
NCMIC is known for chiropractic insurance, but you
mentioned an insurance agencyand financial products.
Tell us more about the otherproducts.
Speaker 2 (11:36):
Yeah, so our agency.
So we started with malpracticeinsurance.
For literally 50 years that wasour only product, but we would
get calls from doctors asking usquestions about what type of
coverage do I need for my officeor for the equipment in the
office, for the building that Iown?
And essentially a lot ofchiropractors are small business
(11:57):
owners and they have a need formore insurance than just
malpractice insurance.
So about 25 years ago westarted our own independent
insurance agency.
It's called NCMIC InsuranceAgency or, I'm sorry, NCMIC
Insurance Services, and weessentially partner with
well-respected national carriersto provide all the other
(12:20):
coverage that a doctor wouldneed besides malpractice.
So this could be a businessowner's policy, any type of
commercial insurance.
It could be a cyber policy.
We offer a long-term disabilityproduct for chiropractors
that's second to none long-termlife insurance or, I'm sorry,
life insurance we insure forpretty much, if you can imagine
(12:45):
it.
We can get that type ofinsurance and also we do
personal lines as well.
So home, auto, any toys thatyou have we can provide
insurance for that.
This allows us to be thatone-stop shop, and we found that
our doctor's time is one of themost valuable things that they
have, so they can essentiallywork with us for malpractice
insurance as well as all theother insurance that they have,
(13:08):
if they'd like.
We also have a finance company.
Oh, I'm sorry, Go ahead.
Speaker 1 (13:12):
Well, I was just going to say you mentioned
long-term care and when you'reyoung you don't think about
long-term care.
I have to tell you a quickstory.
My brother was in the insurancebusiness and my dad was up in
age and had some money layingaround and so he was managing
his estate.
So he said I think we shouldbuy some long-term care for dad,
(13:33):
and he said that will cover himin case he has to ever go to a
nursing home.
Well, the rest of the story ishe did end up in a nursing home
and that long-term care policycovered the whole nursing home
for all the time he was in thereand basically saved the assets
of one of his farms that he wasgiving to kids but people and it
(13:54):
was like I think you paid itover 10 years.
Is that how it works?
And then it's done, yeah it canbe.
Speaker 2 (14:01):
Yeah, yes.
So what we have is a long-termdisability policy, and this is
really important for doctorswhen they're in the middle of
their practice life.
If they were to get injured andthey were to find themselves in
a spot where they can no longerpractice, it's important that
they have a way to protect thatlost income.
(14:21):
And the beauty of our productis that we work specifically
with a carrier, because of ourknowledge of chiropractic, to
explain that it's not apre-existing condition when a
chiropractor has a history ofbeing adjusted I mean, every
chiropractor I've ever met getsadjusted all the time that's not
(14:41):
a pre-existing injury.
So we worked with them to makesure that past chiropractic care
didn't create any sort of a wayin which a carrier could
decline coverage.
So the coverage that we havefor our doctors is a little
unique I'm unaware of anyoneelse that does that and it
really puts our doctors in aposition to be able to protect
(15:03):
their income in the eventsomething happens, because
chiropractic is a very physicalpractice and unfortunately we do
see that and it's somethingthat's been very popular with
our doctors.
We do not and I misspoke there,we do not have a long-term care
product that we specificallyhave.
I know that we could make arecommendation, but I 100% agree
(15:28):
with you that that's a veryimportant part of especially
estate planning.
Yes, because otherwise you putyourself in a spot where you
could really eat away at alifetime of savings.
You had asked about our financecompany as well.
We offer a whole suite ofproducts there.
I'll start with merchantprocessing.
When a chiropractor takes acredit card in the office, they
(15:49):
have to have a merchantprocessor that they work through
.
What we found is a lot of thoserelationships are complicated,
there's a lot of fine print inthe language, there are
long-term contracts and we had alot of complaints.
We heard about that.
So we put together our ownmerchant processing product and
we've become one of the topprocessors in the US certainly
(16:10):
top processor in thechiropractic space, but just an
amazing opportunity and it'ssomething a lot of doctors don't
know.
But the beauty of what we do isthere's no long-term contract.
The fees are all spelled out.
It's very transparent becausewe have a relationship with the
profession and we want to makesure that they don't feel like
(16:32):
they're being surprised at anypoint.
That we do which would typicallybe for equipment that a doctor
might want to add to his office.
So if they're looking to growtheir practice and they want to
add a laser, they want to add anextra table they may not want
to pay for that all up front wecan provide them with a loan to
(16:52):
be able to do that.
We also have a business creditcard, a visa card.
That is nice because it allowsthe doctor to have a business
credit card so they can keep alltheir business expenses
separate from their personalexpenses, which we found a lot
of doctors just don't do thatand that can get really
complicated come tax time.
(17:13):
And then we also have a premiumfinance product.
So if a doctor has insurancepremium that they want to split
up throughout the year theydon't want to pay it either
annually or quarterly we canhelp them with that.
So a lot of products.
And again the theme here isthat we offer these products
because we listen to our doctors.
We had calls from them withquestions about these.
(17:34):
We picked up that there was aneed and we put together what we
think is a really good programto address those needs.
Speaker 1 (17:42):
What are some of the other ways that NCMI supports
the chiropractic profession?
Speaker 2 (17:47):
Yeah.
So I can tell you that we are abig player, I would say, with
the association.
So when you think of stateassociations, national
associations, we are pretty mucheverywhere.
We cover well over 200 events ayear.
We are on almost all thecampuses, we are at homecomings,
(18:10):
we're at events.
If there's an event at a school, we want to look to support and
give back in any way that wecan.
We are also very involved inhelping the colleges as it
relates to helping to preparestudents for graduation.
We do risk management trainingin the classroom at most of the
(18:30):
schools to help make the doctorsaware of the risks that they're
going to face once theygraduate.
And we also do something calledstarting into practice, which
is a very in-depth discussionabout what a doctor can expect
once they open up their practiceand it could be if they open up
their own office, it could beif they're going to be an
(18:51):
associate.
We really cater theconversation to the students
that are in the room and thequestions that they have.
That's been very popular.
And then we also have astarting into practice website
that has a ton of freeinformation available to anyone
(19:11):
there's no password where theycan learn about, you know all of
the do's and don'ts.
They can get copies of abusiness plan, just ways to help
them better prepare for whatlife is going to be once they
get out of school.
I would also mention we dowhat's called a Bucks for Boards
scholarship, which is somethingthat we've partnered with NBCE
and the students when they'resigning up to take their exams,
they can sign up for thescholarship and it's essentially
(19:33):
just a drawing and we've givenout now over $500,000 over the
past five years to students.
And we did that because weheard from the students that
they already have a whole lot ofdebt and they're having to take
these tests and is there a waywe can help to offset that.
So we came up with this idea.
It's been really, reallysuccessful and really popular
(19:55):
with the students idea.
Speaker 1 (19:57):
It's been really, really successful and really
popular with the students.
Well, it's going to be moresuccessful because now, as
you've heard, they're planningon having the students fly to
Greeley Colorado for their partfour, which means that it's
going to cost money to go.
There may be some advantages,but it's still going to cost
money to go to Colorado and taketheir boards.
So you've got a real good thing.
(20:18):
I see you have a podcast herecalled Chiropractical.
Speaker 2 (20:22):
We do, we do yeah, yeah, that's something we
started in 2020, I believe, andyou know we look to cover topics
that we think will be ofinterest to the profession.
We've interviewed leaders inthe profession before A number
of times.
We've had our claims team dosome case studies on there to
(20:42):
just kind of raise awarenessaround what are the things you
should be on the lookout for.
It tends to be based on currentevents, but it's been very
popular.
Speaker 1 (20:54):
With NCMIC's involvement with the profession.
You're around chiropractors alot.
Speaker 2 (21:09):
What's happening with the profession?
Yeah, so I would tell you thatthere's, of course, a lot
occurring.
We haven't talked about theNCMIC Foundation that we have,
but in relation to ourfoundation, which is really
built around helping to get moreresearch into the effectiveness
and to just support whychiropractic makes so much sense
(21:30):
.
But the foundation also hasbeen involved in helping to get
more chiropractic researchersinto fellowships at major
universities throughout theUnited States, including Harvard
and Yale.
But one of the things thatwe're seeing start to happen is
doors are being opened forchiropractors and we think it's
these chiropractors who havethese advanced degrees.
(21:52):
And when you think about whatwe expect to see from Congress
over the next few years, I thinkthat health care is going to be
, you know, a big hot topic, andit's really important that
chiropractors end up having aseat at that table so that
chiropractic is represented andcan really have a say in what
(22:13):
their future is.
Have a say in what their futureis.
We're also, I think, seeingpost-COVID and certainly
post-opioid epidemic.
I'm seeing, I think, a lot moreinterest from people in their
own personal health.
I think people are more willingto take responsibility for that
today, which I think bodes wellfor the profession.
(22:33):
We talk to a lot of doctorseach and every day and I can't
tell you how many of them haveshared stories with us about
they're having their bestpractice lives post-COVID, with
patients who they hadn't seen ina long time really getting
interested in their own personalhealth.
Last thing I would mention isthat I have the honor and the
(22:54):
opportunity to be on a lot ofthe college campuses and I talk
to a lot of students and I willtell you that we always hear
talk about the next generationis going to be the end of
everything.
I'm actually really excitedwhen I talk to the students.
They are really focused andthey're passionate and I'm
excited to see what they'regoing to do once they get out.
And, I think, excited to seewhat they're going to do once
(23:16):
they get out and I think thefuture is in really good hands
there.
Speaker 1 (23:21):
Well, I think the Gen X and Gen Zs and that
generation is now into theInternet.
They're checking out things inthe healthcare world and they're
probably more educated thanthey have ever been.
And so I think this is whychiropractic is coming up on the
scope.
They find out we'll go donatural things before we go to
(23:45):
drugs and surgery, and you knowthings like that.
They'd rather not do that.
So that's why chiropractic ishigh on the list.
So the future I agree with you.
I think it's really bright forchiropractic.
Speaker 2 (24:01):
Yeah, it feels that way to me.
There's a ton of opportunityand I would like to think that
chiropractic will continue toplay a prominent role going
forward.
Speaker 1 (24:10):
Well, I think that you've given us some things to
think about here and some thingsfor people to look at.
I I personally myself you knowthe insurance things have gone
crazy for housing and for, youknow, commercial whatever and to
know that you can take care ofsomething like that is worth the
(24:31):
whole podcast.
You know, just to check in withNCMIC and what can you offer.
That's a big deal.
And you know I knew LouSportelli he's a personal friend
of mine for many years andNCMIC gave a lot of money to
research and I remember way backwhen nobody thought much about
(24:51):
it, he was saying if we don'tgive the chiropractic students
more education, they will notget into the mainstream.
That's happening now.
Don't give the chiropracticstudents more education, they
will not get into the mainstream.
That's happening now, don't youthink?
Speaker 2 (25:01):
I 100%.
We're seeing a lot morechiropractors, I think, having
opportunities to work inintegrated settings.
We're seeing opportunities atthe VA.
We're seeing opportunities withgroups.
You know things that justweren't all that common in the
past.
And yeah, dr Sportelli, he'samazing the foundation which he
heads up.
(25:21):
I think we've I think we've putover $10 million towards
research to date and, you know,worked with some amazing folks.
I know he's worked with, orwe've supported, heidi Horvick,
you think of Stephanie Sullivan.
We've done work with a numberof the schools, including Logan
and Southern Cal, and I thinkthat research is really
(25:43):
foundational, because withoutresearch, I think there's always
going to be skeptics and if youcan put solid research together
, it becomes really really hardto ignore chiropractic.
Speaker 1 (25:54):
So when the young chiropractor comes out of school
, to ignore chiropractic?
So when the young chiropractorcomes out of school, how?
Speaker 2 (26:05):
does he learn where to go get his malpractice?
Is it because you're at theschools?
Yeah, I mean, I would like tothink that if a student is
paying attention, they're goingto graduate and know exactly who
NCMIC is.
We are again on almost all thecampuses.
We have a very robust studentwebsite.
We have opportunities forstudents to be an ambassador for
(26:29):
us, so there's a ton of way forthem to get to know us, and we
are certainly at enough ofevents that I think most of the
students know and a lot of thestudents when they call us they
they just say, well, you're.
You're, of course, the firstcall we're going to make and
we're not going to call anyoneelse, and we love that fact.
Uh, we, we do tend to ensuremost of the new students when
(26:51):
they come right out of school.
Uh, and, being an insurance guy,I wouldn't be doing my job if I
didn't just emphasize thatinsurance is one of those things
that you hope you never have touse, especially malpractice
insurance.
It's weird you buy somethingthat you don't want to use or
expect to use, but in the eventyou do have something come up,
(27:12):
you want to make sure that youhave the person on your side,
the company on your side, who'sgoing to stick with you all the
way to the end and that's reallywhat NCMEC has done so well for
all these years is to standbehind chiropractors and to make
sure that they get their day incourt and ultimately get the
best result possible.
Speaker 1 (27:31):
I don't think listeners out there might know
how important this is, but I canthink of a case that the doctor
did not want to settle and youknow most insurance companies
say, oh, it's cheaper.
Just to, you know, give them somuch money and get out of it.
He said I don't want thatagainst my name, and I think I
mentioned you.
We have a representative hereof Activator that's taught with
(27:52):
me for 40 years, Tom DeVita, andhe, if we ever do have a
malpractice case, he representsus and we've never lost just
because of having 150peer-reviewed papers and 30
clinical trials, and that's thekind of thing that attorneys
live on is the data, and so Ithink that's the very important
(28:14):
thing and I think you wouldagree with that.
Speaker 2 (28:16):
Yeah, it makes all the difference.
And when your, let's say, acase does go to trial, the jury
is going to hear it.
But both sides there could bein their mind some question well
, who do?
I believe At the end of the day, the doctor's records are going
to matter a huge amount.
But also, what research isthere to support that the
(28:36):
treatment was safe and effective?
And you know all those thingstogether.
If you do them right, then youshould win the case and we've
been very, very successful doingthat for a lot of years.
Speaker 1 (28:48):
I don't know if people know, but you have a
conference in Arizona, here, youknow, every so often, with all
the attorneys, you know every sooften with all the attorneys,
and these attorneys all gatherand I know we've given, you know
, a presentation to show whatActivator does and they love it
because we have all the data andthat keeps them out of trouble
and that's what attorneys lookfor is where do I get data?
Speaker 2 (29:16):
How do I protect my patient?
Yeah, and that's another keydifferentiator for us.
I mean, we could talk for hoursabout things.
I think that make us special.
But so our defense counselseminar.
We hold it every other year.
We bring all of our attorneysover 200 of them in, and it is a
chance to collaborate, to shareinformation, to make
connections and to learn aboutthe research that will be
(29:38):
helpful in defending a doctor.
And what we found is ourattorneys.
They get to know each other.
When they have a case, they'llcall up another attorney to find
hey, how are you able to dothis?
And we feel it is the bestmoney we could spend in just
making sure that our attorneysare armed and they have all the
information, they have all thesupport that they're going to
(30:01):
need.
And I'm convinced that ourattorneys are, without a doubt,
the best group of defenseattorneys in the industry,
because they all reallyappreciate what chiropractors do
.
They appreciate that our claimsteam lets them do what they
want to do.
We don't nickel and dime them.
We don't look to tell them oh,you shouldn't do that.
(30:21):
If they want to get an expertfrom Stanford, from Harvard, if
it's the best expert for thecase, then we'll say do it.
Speaker 1 (30:28):
Well, thank you, david Siebert, the president of
NCMIC.
It was a real opportunity tointerview you and I think we put
some things out there that maybe valuable to students and to
doctors.
You know just in the generallife that they lead some
products that they didn't knowabout, that we've put out there.
(30:49):
So you can call NCMIC and youknow you can just talk to
somebody if you have a question.
And so again to the president,thank you very much for being on
the program.
We really think we did a verygood thing for the profession
today.
Speaker 2 (31:06):
Thank you so much for your time.
I appreciate it and Iappreciate you, doctor.
Speaker 1 (31:10):
Thank you, thank you.
Hi, I'm Dr Arnold Ford, the Chairman and Founder
of Activator MethodsInternational.
Welcome to Activate yourPractice podcast.
Today we are honored to havethe President of NCMIC, that's
the National Chiropractic MutualInsurance Company, in case you
don't know what NCMIC is.
And today we have the President, David Siebert, here.
(00:24):
And David, welcome, we're gladto have you.
You know, tell us a little bitabout.
Everybody thinks that NCMIC hasnothing but chiropractic
malpractice.
Now we know better because youinsure all of our things for
activator in the corporate world.
But just tell the folks alittle bit about what NCMIC does
(00:48):
besides chiropracticmalpractice.
Speaker 2 (00:52):
Yeah, so thanks for the question, doctor.
It's hard to talk about NCMICwithout mentioning the
chiropractic piece.
But we are much more than justa chiropractic malpractice
insurance company.
Just to remind everyone, ifthey don't know, we were founded
back in 1946 by chiropractorsfor chiropractors.
That remains who we are today,but we're certainly much more
(01:16):
than just malpractice insurance.
We have in-house a full serviceinsurance agency now so we can
essentially provide anyinsurance products that a doctor
or their office might need.
We also have a finance companyand within that finance company
we have a full suite offinancial products that are
really built around helping toallow chiropractic practices to
(01:40):
grow and prosper.
And again, everything we do isreally built around
chiropractors.
So the products that we havebeyond the malpractice insurance
really have come to us becausewe've had questions from doctors
asking about these products andexpressing an interest in them,
and so we would listen and thenover time we're like we should
probably offer that product.
Speaker 1 (02:00):
So, in other words, if you want your office
equipment insured and that kindof thing, you're in place to do
that.
Speaker 2 (02:08):
Absolutely, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (02:10):
Now tell me, do you do auto insurance and things
like that?
I have not.
I didn't know if you did ordidn't do auto, and how home,
and so forth.
Speaker 2 (02:20):
Yeah, we actually do so.
We do what you would callpersonal lines in insurance.
I actually have my car and myhome insured through our agency.
I think I saved about $1,000,if you can believe it a year
(02:45):
California right now, or inFlorida Not always something we
can do there, but we found thata lot of our doctors haven't
really shopped their coverageand they haven't even talked to
their agent in months, if notyears.
So when we get them on thephone, we'll offer them the
opportunity to take a look attheir coverages and oftentimes
we can save them money and offermore expansive coverage than
they currently have.
Speaker 1 (03:03):
Well, I was shocked, watching the news the other
night, to see that 70% of theCalifornia fire victims did not
have insurance.
And I mean you're looking at$2,027,000,000 houses and no
insurance.
What separates NCMIC from otherproviders in insurance for car
(03:24):
breakers?
Speaker 2 (03:26):
Yeah, so you know, I think first and foremost, it's
our experience.
I mentioned 1946.
We have literally handledthousands upon thousands of
claims.
We have a team here that isexperienced.
I think we have over 300 yearsof claims experience within our
claims team.
Beyond that experience, we arean insurance carrier, we're not
(03:50):
a broker, and why that'simportant is that when you have
a question, when you have aclaim, when you have an issue,
when you call us, we're going tohandle that.
If you work with a broker, thecarrier will change from time to
time and you could have a greatcarrier, but they may not
understand what chiropractic isabout and they may not know how
(04:11):
to defend the chiropractor.
I can tell you that defendingchiropractors is much different
than defending other health careproviders.
You need to understand thelanguage.
You need to understand whatchiropractors do.
We are also a mutual insurancecompany and the beauty of that
is we don't answer toshareholders.
We answer to our policyholdersand that means that we can make
(04:33):
decisions with a very long-termview, thinking 10, 20 years
ahead, not having to worry abouta shareholder call or something
on the short-term horizon.
The things that we do we reallythink about is this good for
the profession.
Are we taking care of ourpolicyholders Us being a mutual
insurance company also meansthat we can declare a
(04:56):
policyholder dividend, whichwe've now done for over 25 years
in a row.
I checked.
We've given back over $170million in premium to our
doctors, which is something thatreally no one else in this
space can do.
The other piece I would mentionis that we're also a company
led by chiropractors.
We have a board of directorsthat is primarily made up of
(05:18):
chiropractors.
They keep us honest.
They make sure that we continuethat mission of helping to grow
chiropractic, really focusingon taking care of the profession
.
And then our leader, dr WayneWilson.
He's the president of NCMICGroup and he's also our chairman
of the board.
He's a chiropractor and eachand every day he's thinking
(05:38):
about the things that we dothrough the lens of being a
chiropractor.
Speaker 1 (05:44):
Walk us through what happens to a doctor in the event
of a claim.
I mean, somebody calls them upand says I'm going to sue you.
What are the steps that thedoctor should do?
Because I mean, I've heardthings like never call a patient
back, and that's what thedoctor always wants to do,
that's just natural to call back.
But the answer is you don't.
(06:05):
You call NCMIC, isn't thatcorrect?
Speaker 2 (06:08):
Yes, I mean, the best advice I can give and I'm an
old claims guy would be to pickup the phone and call NCMIC.
For some reason, you know,sometimes doctors are a little
nervous about calling in.
I can assure you that NCMIC oryour other carrier, if you have
one they're here to help you andultimately they will be able to
(06:32):
walk you through the process.
More likely than not, you'regoing to be feeling a lot of
anxiety.
You're going to be stressed outabout it, because it's very
personal when you have dedicatedyour life to helping patients
and then you have a patientessentially alleged that you
caused them harm.
So we talked to a lot ofdoctors who are really upset and
we can kind of talk them offthe ledge, let them know they're
(06:56):
not alone.
You know you can have a claimif you're the best doctor in the
world, but we let them knowwhat to expect.
And there are kind of two paths.
Well, there's actually three.
So the first path would be justbecause a patient makes a
complaint doesn't mean it's aclaim.
Yet you could have a patientthat, just in passing, said
something that caused you to beconcerned.
(07:16):
In that situation we'll talkwith the doctor, we'll agree on
the best course of action, whichcould be to call the patient,
but again, you want to hear thatfrom your carrier before you do
that.
The other paths would be let'ssay you get a letter from an
attorney, or let's say you get aletter from a patient that is
demanding money.
At that point you shoulddefinitely call in CMIC and we
(07:38):
would open up a claim.
In that situation you wouldwork with one of our claims
adjusters.
We would investigate that claim.
You'd be a part of the process.
We would likely have an expertreview, the medical records and
then we would share with youtheir findings and then we would
agree on a course of action.
The other path for this would be, if there's a lawsuit, if
(07:59):
you're actually sued, that's alittle more serious.
In that situation we actuallyretain a defense attorney.
This would be an attorney whois experienced in defending
chiropractors.
This would be someone thatwe've vetted, that we've worked
with in the past.
They would be close to youroffice and they would kind of be
your lifeline through thatprocess.
Our claims team would continueto work with you, but you'd work
(08:21):
very closely with the attorneyto kind of navigate the legal
process, which can beintimidating and it can take a
while, but the important thingto know is, throughout this
process, ncmic is here to help.
And then another piece ofinformation I would share is
that I think there sometimes isconcern that if you turn a claim
in that an insurance company isjust going to settle it and our
(08:43):
doctors have what's called aconsent to settle policy, which
means that NCMIC cannot and willnot settle any cases unless a
doctor gives us written consentto do so.
We wouldn't do that anyway, butit keeps us honest and it means
that there will be aconversation between us and the
doctor and if the fact patterndoesn't look good, we're going
(09:06):
to have a conversation with thedoctor.
We're going to lay it out forthem.
But if that doctor wants theirday in court, we're going to
respect that.
And we've had those situationsbefore where it could be that
the case was very defensible.
It could have been settled fora nuisance amount of money let's
say $5,000.
But if that doctor wants theirday in court, we'll spend
(09:28):
$200,000 on an attorney to gothrough trial to get that result
that the doctor wants.
At the end of the day, that's awin for the doctor, because
it's their reputation on theline, and it's a win for us
because we're probably going tobe discouraging that attorney
from coming back again trying toget money from a chiropractor.
Speaker 1 (09:47):
What is NCMIC doing to keep up to date from a
business perspective?
Speaker 2 (09:53):
Yeah, that's a very timely question.
We actually did a majorinvestment in a new policy
administration system back inlate 2024, as well as a
customer-facing portal, and thishas not been a smooth
transition for everyone, I cantell you.
I have to own that Technologycan be challenging at times and
(10:17):
some of our insureds theexperience wasn't great.
I've actually had the honor,the opportunity, to talk to a
lot of our doctors over the pastfew months through this process
and I've had to apologize attimes because the process wasn't
as smooth as it should havebeen.
But the one silver lining inthis for me has been that I've
(10:39):
talked to so many doctors whohave been with NCMIC for 30, 40,
50 years.
During the conversation theywere very patient.
They understood that sometimeswhen you make a change it's
difficult.
But I also heard stories fromthem about why they're with
NCMIC.
I heard stories about claimsthat occurred 20 years ago.
They remembered all the facts.
(11:00):
They remembered the claimsadjuster they worked with.
They were so thankful to havestuck with NCMIC through it all.
So each and every day isgetting better for us with this
new technology change that wewent through and I'm confident
that ultimately we're going tohave an improved customer
experience.
We certainly have additionalsecurity now within all of our
(11:20):
platforms, but it's beenchallenging for us and it's kept
us on our toes.
Speaker 1 (11:25):
NCMIC is known for chiropractic insurance, but you
mentioned an insurance agencyand financial products.
Tell us more about the otherproducts.
Speaker 2 (11:36):
Yeah, so our agency.
So we started with malpracticeinsurance.
For literally 50 years that wasour only product, but we would
get calls from doctors asking usquestions about what type of
coverage do I need for my officeor for the equipment in the
office, for the building that Iown?
And essentially a lot ofchiropractors are small business
(11:57):
owners and they have a need formore insurance than just
malpractice insurance.
So about 25 years ago westarted our own independent
insurance agency.
It's called NCMIC InsuranceAgency or, I'm sorry, NCMIC
Insurance Services, and weessentially partner with
well-respected national carriersto provide all the other
(12:20):
coverage that a doctor wouldneed besides malpractice.
So this could be a businessowner's policy, any type of
commercial insurance.
It could be a cyber policy.
We offer a long-term disabilityproduct for chiropractors
that's second to none long-termlife insurance or, I'm sorry,
life insurance we insure forpretty much, if you can imagine
(12:45):
it.
We can get that type ofinsurance and also we do
personal lines as well.
So home, auto, any toys thatyou have we can provide
insurance for that.
This allows us to be thatone-stop shop, and we found that
our doctor's time is one of themost valuable things that they
have, so they can essentiallywork with us for malpractice
insurance as well as all theother insurance that they have,
(13:08):
if they'd like.
We also have a finance company.
Oh, I'm sorry, Go ahead.
Speaker 1 (13:12):
Well, I was just going to say you mentioned
long-term care and when you'reyoung you don't think about
long-term care.
I have to tell you a quickstory.
My brother was in the insurancebusiness and my dad was up in
age and had some money layingaround and so he was managing
his estate.
So he said I think we shouldbuy some long-term care for dad,
(13:33):
and he said that will cover himin case he has to ever go to a
nursing home.
Well, the rest of the story ishe did end up in a nursing home
and that long-term care policycovered the whole nursing home
for all the time he was in thereand basically saved the assets
of one of his farms that he wasgiving to kids but people and it
(13:54):
was like I think you paid itover 10 years.
Is that how it works?
And then it's done, yeah it canbe.
Speaker 2 (14:01):
Yeah, yes.
So what we have is a long-termdisability policy, and this is
really important for doctorswhen they're in the middle of
their practice life.
If they were to get injured andthey were to find themselves in
a spot where they can no longerpractice, it's important that
they have a way to protect thatlost income.
(14:21):
And the beauty of our productis that we work specifically
with a carrier, because of ourknowledge of chiropractic, to
explain that it's not apre-existing condition when a
chiropractor has a history ofbeing adjusted I mean, every
chiropractor I've ever met getsadjusted all the time that's not
(14:41):
a pre-existing injury.
So we worked with them to makesure that past chiropractic care
didn't create any sort of a wayin which a carrier could
decline coverage.
So the coverage that we havefor our doctors is a little
unique I'm unaware of anyoneelse that does that and it
really puts our doctors in aposition to be able to protect
(15:03):
their income in the eventsomething happens, because
chiropractic is a very physicalpractice and unfortunately we do
see that and it's somethingthat's been very popular with
our doctors.
We do not and I misspoke there,we do not have a long-term care
product that we specificallyhave.
I know that we could make arecommendation, but I 100% agree
(15:28):
with you that that's a veryimportant part of especially
estate planning.
Yes, because otherwise you putyourself in a spot where you
could really eat away at alifetime of savings.
You had asked about our financecompany as well.
We offer a whole suite ofproducts there.
I'll start with merchantprocessing.
When a chiropractor takes acredit card in the office, they
(15:49):
have to have a merchantprocessor that they work through
.
What we found is a lot of thoserelationships are complicated,
there's a lot of fine print inthe language, there are
long-term contracts and we had alot of complaints.
We heard about that.
So we put together our ownmerchant processing product and
we've become one of the topprocessors in the US certainly
(16:10):
top processor in thechiropractic space, but just an
amazing opportunity and it'ssomething a lot of doctors don't
know.
But the beauty of what we do isthere's no long-term contract.
The fees are all spelled out.
It's very transparent becausewe have a relationship with the
profession and we want to makesure that they don't feel like
(16:32):
they're being surprised at anypoint.
That we do which would typicallybe for equipment that a doctor
might want to add to his office.
So if they're looking to growtheir practice and they want to
add a laser, they want to add anextra table they may not want
to pay for that all up front wecan provide them with a loan to
(16:52):
be able to do that.
We also have a business creditcard, a visa card.
That is nice because it allowsthe doctor to have a business
credit card so they can keep alltheir business expenses
separate from their personalexpenses, which we found a lot
of doctors just don't do thatand that can get really
complicated come tax time.
(17:13):
And then we also have a premiumfinance product.
So if a doctor has insurancepremium that they want to split
up throughout the year theydon't want to pay it either
annually or quarterly we canhelp them with that.
So a lot of products.
And again the theme here isthat we offer these products
because we listen to our doctors.
We had calls from them withquestions about these.
(17:34):
We picked up that there was aneed and we put together what we
think is a really good programto address those needs.
Speaker 1 (17:42):
What are some of the other ways that NCMI supports
the chiropractic profession?
Speaker 2 (17:47):
Yeah.
So I can tell you that we are abig player, I would say, with
the association.
So when you think of stateassociations, national
associations, we are pretty mucheverywhere.
We cover well over 200 events ayear.
We are on almost all thecampuses, we are at homecomings,
(18:10):
we're at events.
If there's an event at a school, we want to look to support and
give back in any way that wecan.
We are also very involved inhelping the colleges as it
relates to helping to preparestudents for graduation.
We do risk management trainingin the classroom at most of the
(18:30):
schools to help make the doctorsaware of the risks that they're
going to face once theygraduate.
And we also do something calledstarting into practice, which
is a very in-depth discussionabout what a doctor can expect
once they open up their practiceand it could be if they open up
their own office, it could beif they're going to be an
(18:51):
associate.
We really cater theconversation to the students
that are in the room and thequestions that they have.
That's been very popular.
And then we also have astarting into practice website
that has a ton of freeinformation available to anyone
(19:11):
there's no password where theycan learn about, you know all of
the do's and don'ts.
They can get copies of abusiness plan, just ways to help
them better prepare for whatlife is going to be once they
get out of school.
I would also mention we dowhat's called a Bucks for Boards
scholarship, which is somethingthat we've partnered with NBCE
and the students when they'resigning up to take their exams,
they can sign up for thescholarship and it's essentially
(19:33):
just a drawing and we've givenout now over $500,000 over the
past five years to students.
And we did that because weheard from the students that
they already have a whole lot ofdebt and they're having to take
these tests and is there a waywe can help to offset that.
So we came up with this idea.
It's been really, reallysuccessful and really popular
(19:55):
with the students idea.
Speaker 1 (19:57):
It's been really, really successful and really
popular with the students.
Well, it's going to be moresuccessful because now, as
you've heard, they're planningon having the students fly to
Greeley Colorado for their partfour, which means that it's
going to cost money to go.
There may be some advantages,but it's still going to cost
money to go to Colorado and taketheir boards.
So you've got a real good thing.
(20:18):
I see you have a podcast herecalled Chiropractical.
Speaker 2 (20:22):
We do, we do yeah, yeah, that's something we
started in 2020, I believe, andyou know we look to cover topics
that we think will be ofinterest to the profession.
We've interviewed leaders inthe profession before A number
of times.
We've had our claims team dosome case studies on there to
(20:42):
just kind of raise awarenessaround what are the things you
should be on the lookout for.
It tends to be based on currentevents, but it's been very
popular.
Speaker 1 (20:54):
With NCMIC's involvement with the profession.
You're around chiropractors alot.
Speaker 2 (21:09):
What's happening with the profession?
Yeah, so I would tell you thatthere's, of course, a lot
occurring.
We haven't talked about theNCMIC Foundation that we have,
but in relation to ourfoundation, which is really
built around helping to get moreresearch into the effectiveness
and to just support whychiropractic makes so much sense
(21:30):
.
But the foundation also hasbeen involved in helping to get
more chiropractic researchersinto fellowships at major
universities throughout theUnited States, including Harvard
and Yale.
But one of the things thatwe're seeing start to happen is
doors are being opened forchiropractors and we think it's
these chiropractors who havethese advanced degrees.
(21:52):
And when you think about whatwe expect to see from Congress
over the next few years, I thinkthat health care is going to be
, you know, a big hot topic, andit's really important that
chiropractors end up having aseat at that table so that
chiropractic is represented andcan really have a say in what
(22:13):
their future is.
Have a say in what their futureis.
We're also, I think, seeingpost-COVID and certainly
post-opioid epidemic.
I'm seeing, I think, a lot moreinterest from people in their
own personal health.
I think people are more willingto take responsibility for that
today, which I think bodes wellfor the profession.
(22:33):
We talk to a lot of doctorseach and every day and I can't
tell you how many of them haveshared stories with us about
they're having their bestpractice lives post-COVID, with
patients who they hadn't seen ina long time really getting
interested in their own personalhealth.
Last thing I would mention isthat I have the honor and the
(22:54):
opportunity to be on a lot ofthe college campuses and I talk
to a lot of students and I willtell you that we always hear
talk about the next generationis going to be the end of
everything.
I'm actually really excitedwhen I talk to the students.
They are really focused andthey're passionate and I'm
excited to see what they'regoing to do once they get out.
And, I think, excited to seewhat they're going to do once
(23:16):
they get out and I think thefuture is in really good hands
there.
Speaker 1 (23:21):
Well, I think the Gen X and Gen Zs and that
generation is now into theInternet.
They're checking out things inthe healthcare world and they're
probably more educated thanthey have ever been.
And so I think this is whychiropractic is coming up on the
scope.
They find out we'll go donatural things before we go to
(23:45):
drugs and surgery, and you knowthings like that.
They'd rather not do that.
So that's why chiropractic ishigh on the list.
So the future I agree with you.
I think it's really bright forchiropractic.
Speaker 2 (24:01):
Yeah, it feels that way to me.
There's a ton of opportunityand I would like to think that
chiropractic will continue toplay a prominent role going
forward.
Speaker 1 (24:10):
Well, I think that you've given us some things to
think about here and some thingsfor people to look at.
I I personally myself you knowthe insurance things have gone
crazy for housing and for, youknow, commercial whatever and to
know that you can take care ofsomething like that is worth the
(24:31):
whole podcast.
You know, just to check in withNCMIC and what can you offer.
That's a big deal.
And you know I knew LouSportelli he's a personal friend
of mine for many years andNCMIC gave a lot of money to
research and I remember way backwhen nobody thought much about
(24:51):
it, he was saying if we don'tgive the chiropractic students
more education, they will notget into the mainstream.
That's happening now.
Don't give the chiropracticstudents more education, they
will not get into the mainstream.
That's happening now, don't youthink?
Speaker 2 (25:01):
I 100%.
We're seeing a lot morechiropractors, I think, having
opportunities to work inintegrated settings.
We're seeing opportunities atthe VA.
We're seeing opportunities withgroups.
You know things that justweren't all that common in the
past.
And yeah, dr Sportelli, he'samazing the foundation which he
heads up.
(25:21):
I think we've I think we've putover $10 million towards
research to date and, you know,worked with some amazing folks.
I know he's worked with, orwe've supported, heidi Horvick,
you think of Stephanie Sullivan.
We've done work with a numberof the schools, including Logan
and Southern Cal, and I thinkthat research is really
(25:43):
foundational, because withoutresearch, I think there's always
going to be skeptics and if youcan put solid research together
, it becomes really really hardto ignore chiropractic.
Speaker 1 (25:54):
So when the young chiropractor comes out of school
, to ignore chiropractic?
So when the young chiropractorcomes out of school, how?
Speaker 2 (26:05):
does he learn where to go get his malpractice?
Is it because you're at theschools?
Yeah, I mean, I would like tothink that if a student is
paying attention, they're goingto graduate and know exactly who
NCMIC is.
We are again on almost all thecampuses.
We have a very robust studentwebsite.
We have opportunities forstudents to be an ambassador for
(26:29):
us, so there's a ton of way forthem to get to know us, and we
are certainly at enough ofevents that I think most of the
students know and a lot of thestudents when they call us they
they just say, well, you're.
You're, of course, the firstcall we're going to make and
we're not going to call anyoneelse, and we love that fact.
Uh, we, we do tend to ensuremost of the new students when
(26:51):
they come right out of school.
Uh, and, being an insurance guy,I wouldn't be doing my job if I
didn't just emphasize thatinsurance is one of those things
that you hope you never have touse, especially malpractice
insurance.
It's weird you buy somethingthat you don't want to use or
expect to use, but in the eventyou do have something come up,
(27:12):
you want to make sure that youhave the person on your side,
the company on your side, who'sgoing to stick with you all the
way to the end and that's reallywhat NCMEC has done so well for
all these years is to standbehind chiropractors and to make
sure that they get their day incourt and ultimately get the
best result possible.
Speaker 1 (27:31):
I don't think listeners out there might know
how important this is, but I canthink of a case that the doctor
did not want to settle and youknow most insurance companies
say, oh, it's cheaper.
Just to, you know, give them somuch money and get out of it.
He said I don't want thatagainst my name, and I think I
mentioned you.
We have a representative hereof Activator that's taught with
(27:52):
me for 40 years, Tom DeVita, andhe, if we ever do have a
malpractice case, he representsus and we've never lost just
because of having 150peer-reviewed papers and 30
clinical trials, and that's thekind of thing that attorneys
live on is the data, and so Ithink that's the very important
(28:14):
thing and I think you wouldagree with that.
Speaker 2 (28:16):
Yeah, it makes all the difference.
And when your, let's say, acase does go to trial, the jury
is going to hear it.
But both sides there could bein their mind some question well
, who do?
I believe At the end of the day, the doctor's records are going
to matter a huge amount.
But also, what research isthere to support that the
(28:36):
treatment was safe and effective?
And you know all those thingstogether.
If you do them right, then youshould win the case and we've
been very, very successful doingthat for a lot of years.
Speaker 1 (28:48):
I don't know if people know, but you have a
conference in Arizona, here, youknow, every so often, with all
the attorneys, you know every sooften with all the attorneys,
and these attorneys all gatherand I know we've given, you know
, a presentation to show whatActivator does and they love it
because we have all the data andthat keeps them out of trouble
and that's what attorneys lookfor is where do I get data?
Speaker 2 (29:16):
How do I protect my patient?
Yeah, and that's another keydifferentiator for us.
I mean, we could talk for hoursabout things.
I think that make us special.
But so our defense counselseminar.
We hold it every other year.
We bring all of our attorneysover 200 of them in, and it is a
chance to collaborate, to shareinformation, to make
connections and to learn aboutthe research that will be
(29:38):
helpful in defending a doctor.
And what we found is ourattorneys.
They get to know each other.
When they have a case, they'llcall up another attorney to find
hey, how are you able to dothis?
And we feel it is the bestmoney we could spend in just
making sure that our attorneysare armed and they have all the
information, they have all thesupport that they're going to
(30:01):
need.
And I'm convinced that ourattorneys are, without a doubt,
the best group of defenseattorneys in the industry,
because they all reallyappreciate what chiropractors do
.
They appreciate that our claimsteam lets them do what they
want to do.
We don't nickel and dime them.
We don't look to tell them oh,you shouldn't do that.
(30:21):
If they want to get an expertfrom Stanford, from Harvard, if
it's the best expert for thecase, then we'll say do it.
Speaker 1 (30:28):
Well, thank you, david Siebert, the president of
NCMIC.
It was a real opportunity tointerview you and I think we put
some things out there that maybe valuable to students and to
doctors.
You know just in the generallife that they lead some
products that they didn't knowabout, that we've put out there.
(30:49):
So you can call NCMIC and youknow you can just talk to
somebody if you have a question.
And so again to the president,thank you very much for being on
the program.
We really think we did a verygood thing for the profession
today.
Speaker 2 (31:06):
Thank you so much for your time.
I appreciate it and Iappreciate you, doctor.
Speaker 1 (31:10):
Thank you, thank you.
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