Ever wondered how an athlete's passion can shape the future of healthcare? Dr. John Scaringe, President of Southern California University, joins us to share his compelling journey from the world of sports to becoming a leader in chiropractic care. With roots dating back to 1911, SCU has transformed from a chiropractic college into a trailblazer in multidisciplinary healthcare education. Dr. Scaringe discusses the pivotal role of integrative, whole health approaches in healthcare, as well as his efforts to seamlessly incorporate chiropractic care into the Veterans Administration. This conversation sheds light on the evolution of patient-centered care and its alignment with national healthcare initiatives.
Join us as we uncover the intricacies of building innovative health programs, including the launch of high-cost educational ventures like physician assistant programs. Dr. Scaringe provides insights into the challenges of navigating accreditation processes and fostering a unified vision among faculty and alumni. We also explore how SCU is cultivating a collaborative and respectful environment by integrating diverse health professions. Discover how various entities, from private clinics to corporations, are adopting whole health practices to achieve healthier and more satisfied communities. This episode is an enlightening exploration of the fusion between conventional and complementary medicine for holistic patient care.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
Hello, this is Dr Arlen Foer, the Chairman and
Co-Founder of Activator MethodsInternational.
I want to welcome you thismorning to Activate your
Practice, because today we havethe honor of having Dr John
Scringe, who is the President ofSCU, southern California
University, and so we'rewelcoming him today and you're
going to have a great podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
Thank you, Arlen.
It's quite an honor to be hereand I appreciate the invitation.
Speaker 1 (00:33):
Tell me what led you to become a chiropractor.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
Thank you, that's a great question.
I'd be happy to you know tell alittle bit about my story.
My brothers and I have been,you know, athletes all through,
you know, grade school, highschool and college even.
And whenever we were injured wewould go to our chiropractor.
(01:05):
And my bachelor's degree was inhealth and physical education.
And so I also coached in thehigh school level and I was kind
of the de facto athletictrainer, because during my
undergraduate I took severalathletic training courses and I
(01:32):
really enjoyed that interactionof trying to figure out the
injury and doing some, you knowtreatments and rehab and things
like that.
And so I got into chiropracticto work with athletes and early
in my career I would volunteerquite a bit at athletic events
(01:58):
and when you're volunteeringyou're doing that as a passion,
right, you're not getting paid,and it might be, you know, some
national events or local events,and at those events I'd be
working with other healthcarepractitioners that are
volunteering because they loveit.
It would be medical doctors,athletic trainers, massage
therapists, emergencytechnicians all these different
(02:22):
individuals and we relied andworked on and worked with each
other for one purpose and onepurpose only with that athlete
and that patient at the centerof all our decisions.
So this network that I builtearly in my clinical practice
(02:43):
was this team-based care.
We learned from each other, wefocused on the patient and I
carried those principles andthose values that led to this
integrated, patient-centered,team-based care that just
(03:07):
parlayed into really our coreapproach and paradigm at SEU.
Speaker 1 (03:16):
Now you're the president of Southern Cal
University, and so tell us alittle bit about Southern Cal.
Speaker 2 (03:23):
Well, you know, we were founded as a chiropractic
college back in 1911, longbefore the profession was widely
accepted.
So we've always been aninstitution that is not afraid
of challenging convention.
It's kind of in our DNA andwe've experienced recently some
(03:45):
amazing growth.
Over the last five to six yearsOur degree and certificate
enrollments have more thandoubled and we have enjoyed
excess revenues every yearwithout any debt debt.
(04:08):
So that's really resulting fromour three legacy programs,
which we call them legacyprograms because there were
chiropractic, our acupunctureand herbal Chinese medicine
program and then our physician'sassistant program.
Those were kind of our threetraditional programs.
So we've enjoyed some growth inthose, but also growth and
investments in new programs andcurrently we're bringing in or
(04:33):
we're launching about two tothree new programs a year at
this particular point.
So over the last decade or sowe've become one of the few
institutions that offer degreesin a wide range of both
conventional mainstream medicineand complementary disciplines
(04:54):
all under one roof.
So the programs we offer arelike the Doctor of Chiropractic,
obviously, masters andDoctorate in Acupuncture and
Chinese herbal medicine.
We have our beta certificates,we have a bachelor's in health
science, our master's inphysician's assistant and our
(05:15):
master's of science in medicalsciences and a doctor of medical
sciences, which is a brand newdegree that we just launched and
that's the next degree thatphysicians, assistants, earn.
And then our occupationaltherapy.
We have a master's in humangenetics and genomics and then
(05:40):
our brand new doctor in wholehealth leadership.
So this January we're launchingour doctor in occupational
therapy there in Arizona yourhometown or home state and in
the fall of 2025, we'll offer amaster's of science in genetic
(06:01):
counseling and a doctor ofphysical therapy and genetic
counseling and a doctor ofphysical therapy.
And I think what's a littleunique is that we teach students
in every discipline to blendthe best of both worlds and to
treat the whole mind, body andspirit for the best possible
patient outcomes, for the bestpossible patient outcomes.
(06:26):
So that's really SCU and we gotsome exciting major initiative
coming up around whole health aswell.
Speaker 1 (06:36):
Why do you call it integrative, whole health?
Speaker 2 (06:40):
You know, all the research shows that treating the
whole person and not just thesymptoms is a far superior
approach and I think you know,as our chiropractic colleagues
out there you know, understandthat deeply right, that's really
, you know, in our DNA, right,as chiropractors, this whole
(07:09):
health approach yields, you know, exponentially better outcomes
at much lower costs.
So health care leaders I thinkwe've we've heard from the US
Surgeon General to the NationalInstitute of Health, to the
National Academies of Science,engineering and Medicine are all
(07:29):
calling for these health caresystems to move in this
direction.
So we're answering thatparticular call.
In fact, the National Academy'spublication is entitled
Achieving Whole Health a NewApproach for Veterans and the
Nation.
(07:49):
And the reason why theymentioned veterans because of
the VA.
Veterans and the Nation.
And the reason why theymentioned veterans because of
the VA.
Dr Tracy Gaudet, who led thewhole health movement within the
Veterans Administration, ourlargest, you know, healthcare
delivery system in the nation,is the executive director of our
new Doctor of Whole HealthLeadership, which just launched
(08:10):
this past month.
Speaker 1 (08:12):
Well, you know, I got my first look at integrative
health at the VA, because I wasinvolved in that getting the VA,
you know, getting chiropracticin the VA.
And I remember going toWashington because we had one
co-sponsor left and it was JohnMcCain.
And of course, john McCain, hewas the veteran of veterans and
(08:36):
I remember walking in his officeand met with one of his staff
and they said it's toocontroversial, this is never
going to get in.
So just as we were talking,john McCain walked in the door
and I said Senator McCain, I'mDr Fore from Phoenix and I'm a
constituent and I would like toknow if you'd like to hear a sea
(08:58):
story.
And this is Navy talk now.
And there's not a sailor alivethat won't stop and listen to a
sea story.
And I told him about.
Well, I was on a minesweeperand we had gone over on Liberty
and we came back and our shipswere gone.
It was the Cuban Missile Crisisand we didn't know that at the
(09:19):
time.
But all our ships and we got onthem the next morning and we
left south.
We didn't know where we weregoing and we hit rough weather
and if you know anything about aminesweeper, it's all wood, so
it's like a cork, it bobs around.
Know anything about aminesweeper?
It's all wood, so it's like acork, it bobs around.
And I looked up and the captainjust stepped off the captain's
(09:40):
chair and slipped on the deckand fell.
And so we got him up and hesaid four, aren't you a
chiropractor?
And I said, yes, sir.
He said well, then do what youdo, because I can't really walk.
And so, long story short, wewent down to his rack and give
him an adjustment and he gets upoff the rack and says the
pain's gone Now.
He said I can tell you whatwe're doing.
We're going into Guantanamo Baytomorrow morning to take the
(10:02):
mines out, to get the USS Rangerout.
And I'm like, oh, that soundsreally fun.
But Senator McCain looked at meand he said if you hadn't been
on the bridge and you hadn'tadjusted him, he may not have
been on the bridge.
And the next day I said yes,sir, that's possible.
He said co-sponsor the bill andthat was the last person that
signed that bill on.
(10:24):
So that's why I know a littlebit about integrative care,
because I then started it at thePhoenix VA Carl T Hayden VA
hospital and it was the firsttime I'd ever been an integrated
source and I had a couple ofyoung doctors that I had working
for me and I told them I wantyou to do the best records, I
want you to do the best ofeverything you can do, because
you're going to be watched bythe medical profession.
(10:45):
There are 200 doctors there,and so I understand what you're
talking about when you say wholehealth, because it was my first
time to see how it workedtogether with people.
And you know, honestly, I hadone patient that was on 35
active medications when Istarted taking care of him.
Two years later he was on oneand he was in rehab.
So that was my experience onintegrative health.
(11:07):
Now, you know, I think we'vebeen practicing I guess you'd
call it natural health for years, haven't we as chiropractors?
And so what's new now?
Speaker 2 (11:21):
You know, whole health just isn't another name
for integrated health and it'sgetting attention now, as I
mentioned.
You know, nationally, and justlike any other, I guess,
paradigm, there are similaritiesto different approaches.
(11:45):
So, yes, many, as you mentioned, many chiropractors and other
healthcare providers have beenapproaching patient care using
the principles of whole healthfor years.
But integrative health care isnot necessarily whole health
care.
You and your listeners, youknow, may have heard the phrase
(12:11):
it's not what is the matter withour patients, but what matters
to our patients.
And typically a physician mayask, or a practitioner may ask,
what brings you in today, andthe patient may respond, you
know, as you know, my back hurts, I have headaches, and then
(12:32):
that provider will continue toask questions about that chief
complaint.
Whole health kind of flips thatscript a little.
It starts with what is thepatient's purpose and what
really matters to them, andmotivational interviewing, where
many of our listeners acrossmany different disciplines know
(12:53):
what that is, which is taughtmany of our chiropractic
programs and colleges, is thefirst step towards that whole
health paradigm Not what is thematter with you, but what
matters to you right now.
Right now it's not just, youknow, to get you out of pain,
(13:22):
but to to dig deeper, to to say,oh, you want to run a marathon,
you know, or, or you want tolose weight.
But why do you want to loseweight?
Right, it's to improve myhealth, so I can live long
enough to spend many years withmy grandchildren whatever it is
Right, children, whatever it isright.
So the next step after you, youknow, discover what that
person's purpose is is whereintegrative healthcare comes in.
That's, you know, integratingall different professions, you
(13:44):
know, across the aisles, likemainstream, conventional, or
conventional or or orintegrative professions, right,
and that's the clinical care andthe self-care components of of
whole health.
And, and then that third layerreally is is community.
(14:05):
And and these may involve our,our peer groups, our support
groups, spiritual or religiouscommunities and other you know,
community resources, and I thinkwe all understand and know the
power of what peers have, right,they've walked in your shoes
(14:27):
and the message that is there ofhope or support that they will
be there with you through thisparticular journey, whatever
that journey is.
So those are some components ofwhat whole health is, and
integrative health is a part ofthat.
And I think the final and mostimportant component for any type
(14:50):
of transformational changespecifically to whole health is
building a system around theseprinciples, which is them on how
to make change within theirsystems around whole health.
So so, for example, I come froma sports medicine background
(15:24):
and I think Medicine communityis an ideal example of of whole
health.
We often understand theathlete's goal or purpose right
to win a championship, you know.
Make the varsity team be anOlympian, you know.
And there's this army ofhealthcare providers, from
(15:45):
medical doctors, chiropractors,acupuncturists, massage
therapists, athletic trainers,nutritionists, sports
psychologists you name it rightand we build systems around this
athlete's purpose.
From pro sports teams, theyhave a system of sports medicine
around them in departments,college athletics, the Olympics,
(16:10):
the national governing bodiesof these particular sports,
nationally and internationally.
And while we didn't necessarilyuse the term whole health when
treating these athletes, back inthe time when I got into it,
that's exactly what we weredoing starting with what really
(16:32):
motivates that individual andaddressing not just the physical
but also the psychologicallifestyle and other variables
that are impacting thatparticular athlete's performance
.
Speaker 1 (16:48):
So chiropractic is part of whole health.
Speaker 2 (16:53):
Well, I think anybody can be part of whole health
Individuals can.
I think the whole healthmovement, though, is finding
that person's meaning andpurpose and not just look at
them as a low back or a diabeticdown deep into what is it that
(17:19):
they really want to achieve.
And then it's working withthose integrative teams and
what's available for thatpatient and a patient-centered
approach, and then buildingthese systems around it right,
and I think chiropractors notall of us and other
(17:41):
practitioners have taken and dopractice amongst that, but to be
part of the system.
I think, you know,chiropractors have a wonderful
role to play, maybe not justleading teams, but also being a
part of those teams and bringingthat perspective into that
(18:04):
patient care component of of thewhole health paradigm.
So, in your opinion, the VA is.
They have it started as ademonstration project and they
(18:25):
have embraced it.
Now you know it's such a largesystem and they have regions and
they have multiple you knowfacilities and within those
those regions and some are doingyou others, but it is this
paradigm of really focusing whatmatters to that veteran and
(18:51):
building their whole systemaround it, including their
reward systems for their staffand clinicians.
So it's not just about thepatient, it's about a whole
health approach for everyone inthe system.
Speaker 1 (19:13):
Are there a lot of private clinics out there right
now that are doing the wholehealth concept that are doing
the whole health concept.
Speaker 2 (19:21):
I think you will have a lot of clinics that are
embracing that.
But if they're not part of thecommunity system or a closed
system like the VA is a closedsystem, right, so they're able
to move.
I think there's other closedsystems out there.
(20:04):
I think that can embrace thewhole health concepts Corporate,
right, the self-insured right.
So let's take some systemthat's already want to empower
and take care of their employees, right, that they want a
healthy and satisfied workforce.
An insurance company could careless if they're satisfied,
right, but an employer wants ahealthy and satisfied workforce.
So there's other communitieseven out there.
There's other communities evenout there, municipalities, the
Blue Zone they've taken a BlueZone.
So there's these communities athigh readiness that I think
(20:27):
would embrace some more of theseprinciples.
So you have a Blue Zonecommunity.
They already are starting to,you know, put green spaces,
areas and where people canexercise those types of things.
But, you know, take it a stepfurther.
Bring everyone together.
Bring those clinics right thatyou speak of into discussions,
(20:51):
bring the religious organization, bring the nonprofits, bring
the municipality programs, bringthe Department of Health in
that community and work togetherto create what that whole
health community would look like.
Speaker 1 (21:10):
Do you think that most chiropractic colleges are
branching out now into otherdisciplines?
Speaker 2 (21:19):
I do.
I see more of my colleagues andmore of the profession that you
know have embraced this.
You know this integrated, youknow team-based care approach
and said let's bring these inand we're just trying to take it
a step further into, you know,our whole community.
(21:41):
So, you know, at SCU we've beenmoving towards this whole
health principles in our clinicsystem and our aha moment, you
know, was during the discussionsaround employee benefits and I
was like saying, well, you know,if we're going to redo all
(22:03):
employee benefits, what you know, how do we approach this with
our patients.
You know, if we're going tolook at this integrated whole
health approach, and that was myaha moment.
(22:43):
And you know how do we play apart in which health for our
students, faculty and staff toboth pursue what's important to
them and support them throughthat whole health paradigm.
So we developed seven focusareas or domains, with standards
under each, all of those areas,and we believe, like all those
(23:07):
areas, you must institutionalizethose through our structures,
our processes and our rewardsystem and it needs to be
communicated and everyone needsto experience it what a whole
health is and it must beroutinely assessed as that, you
(23:28):
know, close the loop with thequality assessments.
So where we're at now it's brandnew.
So you know, we're just it'siterative for us.
We're just moving forward.
We established seven domainsand those related standards.
We conducted a self-evaluationand launched a plan to close
(23:51):
those gaps where we weren'tcoming up to snuff on those
standards that we created and webegan implementing the whole
health approach in our SCUhealth centers and clinics.
We're launching a comprehensiveorientation and whole health
experience for all our staff,faculty and students.
(24:13):
We're appointing a chief wholehealth officer.
We eventually will hopefullywe'll launch that this year, if
not next launching a center forwhole health education and
training and I already mentionedwe launched the doctor of whole
health leadership degreeprogram.
(24:33):
So those are our steps towardsthat and we're hoping that other
universities, not just healthscience related universities,
but all universities, will wantto catch on to what a whole
health university paradigm is.
Speaker 1 (24:53):
Well, it's very interesting and you made a
statement earlier that I thoughtwas very interesting.
You said you have launchedthese new programs.
They take some time to you know, initiate and get going, that
you're debt-free and you don'tspend more money than you have
to get these programs launched.
How much time does it take,like just a PA program, for
(25:13):
example?
How much time does that take tolaunch and become profitable?
Speaker 2 (25:20):
Yeah, that's a great question when we launched it and
now to get in the queue you'rewaiting longer.
But it's similar to many ofthese what we call high-cost,
high-barrier programs.
(25:40):
What we call high cost, highbarrier programs, and what I
mean by high barrier it'sthere's an accreditor that it's
taking several years for you toapply, that you'd like to start
a new program, and then they putyou in a queue and they can.
Sometimes, you know you canwait from three to five years
(26:01):
from when you start the process.
So that's a high barrier andhigh cost is you're investing,
you know, quite a lot ofresources prior to even sitting
your first student student.
(26:24):
So when we launched, you knowwe were looking at, close to you
know, a million dollars in, or750 to a million dollars in in
program costs before the new,the students even came into that
new program.
You're hiring your director at acertain time, right, or your
program director.
Then there's your principalfaculty that you need to start
(26:50):
hiring a certain time before sothat you can start developing
your program, starting to writeyour first self-study for the
accreditor, and then, as you getcloser and closer, you're
hiring more individuals.
You need to find rotations forthose students.
(27:14):
So you need to reach out andyou have to hire somebody to
reach out to hospitals andclinics and other offices and
get agreements signed, which iskind of tough when you're
starting a program, because notonly is the program three years
away, right, they may not berotating through those until a
(27:38):
year after the program evenlaunches.
So you're four or five yearsaway when you start looking for
those particular sites for therotation.
So it does take a lot ofresources and commitment from
the board, from the otherfaculty, from all your support
(28:01):
offices, and everyone needs tobe you know, they need to buy in
and they need to be rowing allin the same direction.
Once we started theinfrastructure, that's the other
thing.
To do this right.
Every new program we bring inis a new accreditor, okay.
So now we're getting you know,accreditation visits, you know,
(28:24):
much more frequently than if wejust had one or two programs.
This fall we had three, three,you know, site visits.
Yes, we have two, we have twoin the spring, we have two in
(28:47):
this in in the spring.
So you have to have, you know,an infrastructure to be able to,
you know, continually to bringthese programs on.
And it's, you know, it's acommitment from from everyone,
from the board chair all the waydown to you know our facilities
, people people.
Speaker 1 (29:02):
I guess if, from what I've heard here, if I was a
university president, I'd putyou as a consultant, I'd hire
you because you've gone throughit.
But you know, I see what you'redoing step by step and I think
that if universities areinterested in that, they do well
to get some counseling on thisbefore they get off on a program
, because you can save them alot of time and money.
Speaker 2 (29:22):
Well, you know we've.
You know I've spoken to severalof my colleagues who are moving
down this path and have shared,you know, my experiences.
You know with them as well.
But you know, when I set out todo this, this isn't something
that you do overnight, it's,it's a long strategic plan and
(29:48):
you know there's there's alsochange management that comes
with that and I don't you know,I'm not telling any anybody to.
You know, take any changemanagement strategy over another
, they, they tend to be aboutthis.
You know the same components,but you know I, I took a change
(30:09):
management strategy.
I looked at, you know, I think,a compelling vision to, to move
into, you know, this integratedwhole health concept.
And, um, you know you have tomotivate and you have to inspire
people to be, uh on, on thesame page.
(30:30):
And, um, you know it's, it's um, messy at times and you need to
expect, you know, that mess,but you try to mitigate as many
of those deterrents as you canand keep on the path forward.
Speaker 1 (30:48):
Lastly, did you have any problems with the
chiropractic alumni thinking itwas going from a chiropractic
college to you?
Know, not a chiropracticcollege.
Speaker 2 (30:59):
You know that is such an insightful, you know
question.
We did, you know I think therewere.
You know some that you know, Idon't know my.
My glass tends to be half fulland and not half empty, and I
would get people saying whenthey heard I was bringing, you
(31:22):
know, the physician's assistantprogram, which I think was you
know, it was a very strategicmove for us because we saw where
they were going to be the firstcontact of of many types of
specialties, not just in primarycare, and and thought, well,
(31:44):
let's train them alongside ourchiropractors and acupuncturists
so that, you know, theyunderstand us.
And if the insurance company orthe system they're in already
have chiropractors or oracupuncturists as a resource,
they would be more apt to referto that.
So, as far as alums and otherchiropractors, what came to me
(32:09):
is well, why are you bringingthis physician's assistant
program?
Don't you think that thosechiropractors would want to
become physician's assistantsnow?
And my response was why do youthink that they're going to
influence our chiropracticstudents in a negative fashion
(32:29):
and not our chiropractorstudents influencing the
physician's assistant studentsin a positive fashion?
And that's what we found.
I mean, you know, we're notmaking chiropractors physicians
assistants.
That's a different profession.
We work together with that andthose students that come into
(32:52):
our chiropractic program want tobecome chiropractors and
respect all the otherprofessions that they learn with
.
And that's the same with theoccupational therapy students we
have, the physician's assistantstudents we have.
They're all appreciating,respecting and understanding
(33:16):
what role the chiropractor andthe acupuncture and Ayurvedic
practitioners can bring to ahealthcare team.
Speaker 1 (33:24):
I think, through all the things we've talked about
here, the one thing that'ssticking with me now is what
matters to the patient.
To me, that's a critical thingto pay attention to, and so I
want to end on that.
But I want to thank you becauseI said if I was a university
president, I'd be calling youright now for a consulting fee
(33:48):
because I want to have yourexperience in the process that I
think has been so valuable.
So you've been out there wayahead, john, and I really want
to thank you for coming out toactivate your practice, because
there's going to be a lot ofpeople listening to this and I
think you've given great insight.
Speaker 2 (34:07):
Well, thank you, earl .
I appreciate the kind words andit's going to sound like a
cliche a strong team and a corefaculty and staff to really
support and believe in thevision.
None of this would happen.
(34:28):
So I appreciate your kind words.
Speaker 1 (34:32):
Well, thank you, and we'll be looking forward to
coming over.
You know we have a greatactivator program at SCU and I
love your dean, dr Anna Faconato.
I've known her for years andyou picked a great one there.
And Dr Capon is doing a lot forour activator program so we're
(34:53):
happy to be involved with you.
Speaker 2 (34:54):
We appreciate you.
Thank you very much for all youdo.
Speaker 1 (34:58):
Thank you, Thanks everybody, for tuning in to
Activate your Practice.
Hello, this is Dr Arlen Foer, the Chairman and
Co-Founder of Activator MethodsInternational.
I want to welcome you thismorning to Activate your
Practice, because today we havethe honor of having Dr John
Scringe, who is the President ofSCU, southern California
University, and so we'rewelcoming him today and you're
going to have a great podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
Thank you, Arlen.
It's quite an honor to be hereand I appreciate the invitation.
Speaker 1 (00:33):
Tell me what led you to become a chiropractor.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
Thank you, that's a great question.
I'd be happy to you know tell alittle bit about my story.
My brothers and I have been,you know, athletes all through,
you know, grade school, highschool and college even.
And whenever we were injured wewould go to our chiropractor.
(01:05):
And my bachelor's degree was inhealth and physical education.
And so I also coached in thehigh school level and I was kind
of the de facto athletictrainer, because during my
undergraduate I took severalathletic training courses and I
(01:32):
really enjoyed that interactionof trying to figure out the
injury and doing some, you knowtreatments and rehab and things
like that.
And so I got into chiropracticto work with athletes and early
in my career I would volunteerquite a bit at athletic events
(01:58):
and when you're volunteeringyou're doing that as a passion,
right, you're not getting paid,and it might be, you know, some
national events or local events,and at those events I'd be
working with other healthcarepractitioners that are
volunteering because they loveit.
It would be medical doctors,athletic trainers, massage
therapists, emergencytechnicians all these different
(02:22):
individuals and we relied andworked on and worked with each
other for one purpose and onepurpose only with that athlete
and that patient at the centerof all our decisions.
So this network that I builtearly in my clinical practice
(02:43):
was this team-based care.
We learned from each other, wefocused on the patient and I
carried those principles andthose values that led to this
integrated, patient-centered,team-based care that just
(03:07):
parlayed into really our coreapproach and paradigm at SEU.
Speaker 1 (03:16):
Now you're the president of Southern Cal
University, and so tell us alittle bit about Southern Cal.
Speaker 2 (03:23):
Well, you know, we were founded as a chiropractic
college back in 1911, longbefore the profession was widely
accepted.
So we've always been aninstitution that is not afraid
of challenging convention.
It's kind of in our DNA andwe've experienced recently some
(03:45):
amazing growth.
Over the last five to six yearsOur degree and certificate
enrollments have more thandoubled and we have enjoyed
excess revenues every yearwithout any debt debt.
(04:08):
So that's really resulting fromour three legacy programs,
which we call them legacyprograms because there were
chiropractic, our acupunctureand herbal Chinese medicine
program and then our physician'sassistant program.
Those were kind of our threetraditional programs.
So we've enjoyed some growth inthose, but also growth and
investments in new programs andcurrently we're bringing in or
(04:33):
we're launching about two tothree new programs a year at
this particular point.
So over the last decade or sowe've become one of the few
institutions that offer degreesin a wide range of both
conventional mainstream medicineand complementary disciplines
(04:54):
all under one roof.
So the programs we offer arelike the Doctor of Chiropractic,
obviously, masters andDoctorate in Acupuncture and
Chinese herbal medicine.
We have our beta certificates,we have a bachelor's in health
science, our master's inphysician's assistant and our
(05:15):
master's of science in medicalsciences and a doctor of medical
sciences, which is a brand newdegree that we just launched and
that's the next degree thatphysicians, assistants, earn.
And then our occupationaltherapy.
We have a master's in humangenetics and genomics and then
(05:40):
our brand new doctor in wholehealth leadership.
So this January we're launchingour doctor in occupational
therapy there in Arizona yourhometown or home state and in
the fall of 2025, we'll offer amaster's of science in genetic
(06:01):
counseling and a doctor ofphysical therapy and genetic
counseling and a doctor ofphysical therapy.
And I think what's a littleunique is that we teach students
in every discipline to blendthe best of both worlds and to
treat the whole mind, body andspirit for the best possible
patient outcomes, for the bestpossible patient outcomes.
(06:26):
So that's really SCU and we gotsome exciting major initiative
coming up around whole health aswell.
Speaker 1 (06:36):
Why do you call it integrative, whole health?
Speaker 2 (06:40):
You know, all the research shows that treating the
whole person and not just thesymptoms is a far superior
approach and I think you know,as our chiropractic colleagues
out there you know, understandthat deeply right, that's really
, you know, in our DNA, right,as chiropractors, this whole
(07:09):
health approach yields, you know, exponentially better outcomes
at much lower costs.
So health care leaders I thinkwe've we've heard from the US
Surgeon General to the NationalInstitute of Health, to the
National Academies of Science,engineering and Medicine are all
(07:29):
calling for these health caresystems to move in this
direction.
So we're answering thatparticular call.
In fact, the National Academy'spublication is entitled
Achieving Whole Health a NewApproach for Veterans and the
Nation.
(07:49):
And the reason why theymentioned veterans because of
the VA.
Veterans and the Nation.
And the reason why theymentioned veterans because of
the VA.
Dr Tracy Gaudet, who led thewhole health movement within the
Veterans Administration, ourlargest, you know, healthcare
delivery system in the nation,is the executive director of our
new Doctor of Whole HealthLeadership, which just launched
(08:10):
this past month.
Speaker 1 (08:12):
Well, you know, I got my first look at integrative
health at the VA, because I wasinvolved in that getting the VA,
you know, getting chiropracticin the VA.
And I remember going toWashington because we had one
co-sponsor left and it was JohnMcCain.
And of course, john McCain, hewas the veteran of veterans and
(08:36):
I remember walking in his officeand met with one of his staff
and they said it's toocontroversial, this is never
going to get in.
So just as we were talking,john McCain walked in the door
and I said Senator McCain, I'mDr Fore from Phoenix and I'm a
constituent and I would like toknow if you'd like to hear a sea
(08:58):
story.
And this is Navy talk now.
And there's not a sailor alivethat won't stop and listen to a
sea story.
And I told him about.
Well, I was on a minesweeperand we had gone over on Liberty
and we came back and our shipswere gone.
It was the Cuban Missile Crisisand we didn't know that at the
(09:19):
time.
But all our ships and we got onthem the next morning and we
left south.
We didn't know where we weregoing and we hit rough weather
and if you know anything about aminesweeper, it's all wood, so
it's like a cork, it bobs around.
Know anything about aminesweeper?
It's all wood, so it's like acork, it bobs around.
And I looked up and the captainjust stepped off the captain's
(09:40):
chair and slipped on the deckand fell.
And so we got him up and hesaid four, aren't you a
chiropractor?
And I said, yes, sir.
He said well, then do what youdo, because I can't really walk.
And so, long story short, wewent down to his rack and give
him an adjustment and he gets upoff the rack and says the
pain's gone Now.
He said I can tell you whatwe're doing.
We're going into Guantanamo Baytomorrow morning to take the
(10:02):
mines out, to get the USS Rangerout.
And I'm like, oh, that soundsreally fun.
But Senator McCain looked at meand he said if you hadn't been
on the bridge and you hadn'tadjusted him, he may not have
been on the bridge.
And the next day I said yes,sir, that's possible.
He said co-sponsor the bill andthat was the last person that
signed that bill on.
(10:24):
So that's why I know a littlebit about integrative care,
because I then started it at thePhoenix VA Carl T Hayden VA
hospital and it was the firsttime I'd ever been an integrated
source and I had a couple ofyoung doctors that I had working
for me and I told them I wantyou to do the best records, I
want you to do the best ofeverything you can do, because
you're going to be watched bythe medical profession.
(10:45):
There are 200 doctors there,and so I understand what you're
talking about when you say wholehealth, because it was my first
time to see how it workedtogether with people.
And you know, honestly, I hadone patient that was on 35
active medications when Istarted taking care of him.
Two years later he was on oneand he was in rehab.
So that was my experience onintegrative health.
(11:07):
Now, you know, I think we'vebeen practicing I guess you'd
call it natural health for years, haven't we as chiropractors?
And so what's new now?
Speaker 2 (11:21):
You know, whole health just isn't another name
for integrated health and it'sgetting attention now, as I
mentioned.
You know, nationally, and justlike any other, I guess,
paradigm, there are similaritiesto different approaches.
(11:45):
So, yes, many, as you mentioned, many chiropractors and other
healthcare providers have beenapproaching patient care using
the principles of whole healthfor years.
But integrative health care isnot necessarily whole health
care.
You and your listeners, youknow, may have heard the phrase
(12:11):
it's not what is the matter withour patients, but what matters
to our patients.
And typically a physician mayask, or a practitioner may ask,
what brings you in today, andthe patient may respond, you
know, as you know, my back hurts, I have headaches, and then
(12:32):
that provider will continue toask questions about that chief
complaint.
Whole health kind of flips thatscript a little.
It starts with what is thepatient's purpose and what
really matters to them, andmotivational interviewing, where
many of our listeners acrossmany different disciplines know
(12:53):
what that is, which is taughtmany of our chiropractic
programs and colleges, is thefirst step towards that whole
health paradigm Not what is thematter with you, but what
matters to you right now.
Right now it's not just, youknow, to get you out of pain,
(13:22):
but to to dig deeper, to to say,oh, you want to run a marathon,
you know, or, or you want tolose weight.
But why do you want to loseweight?
Right, it's to improve myhealth, so I can live long
enough to spend many years withmy grandchildren whatever it is
Right, children, whatever it isright.
So the next step after you, youknow, discover what that
person's purpose is is whereintegrative healthcare comes in.
That's, you know, integratingall different professions, you
(13:44):
know, across the aisles, likemainstream, conventional, or
conventional or or orintegrative professions, right,
and that's the clinical care andthe self-care components of of
whole health.
And, and then that third layerreally is is community.
(14:05):
And and these may involve our,our peer groups, our support
groups, spiritual or religiouscommunities and other you know,
community resources, and I thinkwe all understand and know the
power of what peers have, right,they've walked in your shoes
(14:27):
and the message that is there ofhope or support that they will
be there with you through thisparticular journey, whatever
that journey is.
So those are some components ofwhat whole health is, and
integrative health is a part ofthat.
And I think the final and mostimportant component for any type
(14:50):
of transformational changespecifically to whole health is
building a system around theseprinciples, which is them on how
to make change within theirsystems around whole health.
So so, for example, I come froma sports medicine background
(15:24):
and I think Medicine communityis an ideal example of of whole
health.
We often understand theathlete's goal or purpose right
to win a championship, you know.
Make the varsity team be anOlympian, you know.
And there's this army ofhealthcare providers, from
(15:45):
medical doctors, chiropractors,acupuncturists, massage
therapists, athletic trainers,nutritionists, sports
psychologists you name it rightand we build systems around this
athlete's purpose.
From pro sports teams, theyhave a system of sports medicine
around them in departments,college athletics, the Olympics,
(16:10):
the national governing bodiesof these particular sports,
nationally and internationally.
And while we didn't necessarilyuse the term whole health when
treating these athletes, back inthe time when I got into it,
that's exactly what we weredoing starting with what really
(16:32):
motivates that individual andaddressing not just the physical
but also the psychologicallifestyle and other variables
that are impacting thatparticular athlete's performance
.
Speaker 1 (16:48):
So chiropractic is part of whole health.
Speaker 2 (16:53):
Well, I think anybody can be part of whole health
Individuals can.
I think the whole healthmovement, though, is finding
that person's meaning andpurpose and not just look at
them as a low back or a diabeticdown deep into what is it that
(17:19):
they really want to achieve.
And then it's working withthose integrative teams and
what's available for thatpatient and a patient-centered
approach, and then buildingthese systems around it right,
and I think chiropractors notall of us and other
(17:41):
practitioners have taken and dopractice amongst that, but to be
part of the system.
I think, you know,chiropractors have a wonderful
role to play, maybe not justleading teams, but also being a
part of those teams and bringingthat perspective into that
(18:04):
patient care component of of thewhole health paradigm.
So, in your opinion, the VA is.
They have it started as ademonstration project and they
(18:25):
have embraced it.
Now you know it's such a largesystem and they have regions and
they have multiple you knowfacilities and within those
those regions and some are doingyou others, but it is this
paradigm of really focusing whatmatters to that veteran and
(18:51):
building their whole systemaround it, including their
reward systems for their staffand clinicians.
So it's not just about thepatient, it's about a whole
health approach for everyone inthe system.
Speaker 1 (19:13):
Are there a lot of private clinics out there right
now that are doing the wholehealth concept that are doing
the whole health concept.
Speaker 2 (19:21):
I think you will have a lot of clinics that are
embracing that.
But if they're not part of thecommunity system or a closed
system like the VA is a closedsystem, right, so they're able
to move.
I think there's other closedsystems out there.
(20:04):
I think that can embrace thewhole health concepts Corporate,
right, the self-insured right.
So let's take some systemthat's already want to empower
and take care of their employees, right, that they want a
healthy and satisfied workforce.
An insurance company could careless if they're satisfied,
right, but an employer wants ahealthy and satisfied workforce.
So there's other communitieseven out there.
There's other communities evenout there, municipalities, the
Blue Zone they've taken a BlueZone.
So there's these communities athigh readiness that I think
(20:27):
would embrace some more of theseprinciples.
So you have a Blue Zonecommunity.
They already are starting to,you know, put green spaces,
areas and where people canexercise those types of things.
But, you know, take it a stepfurther.
Bring everyone together.
Bring those clinics right thatyou speak of into discussions,
(20:51):
bring the religious organization, bring the nonprofits, bring
the municipality programs, bringthe Department of Health in
that community and work togetherto create what that whole
health community would look like.
Speaker 1 (21:10):
Do you think that most chiropractic colleges are
branching out now into otherdisciplines?
Speaker 2 (21:19):
I do.
I see more of my colleagues andmore of the profession that you
know have embraced this.
You know this integrated, youknow team-based care approach
and said let's bring these inand we're just trying to take it
a step further into, you know,our whole community.
(21:41):
So, you know, at SCU we've beenmoving towards this whole
health principles in our clinicsystem and our aha moment, you
know, was during the discussionsaround employee benefits and I
was like saying, well, you know,if we're going to redo all
(22:03):
employee benefits, what you know, how do we approach this with
our patients.
You know, if we're going tolook at this integrated whole
health approach, and that was myaha moment.
(22:43):
And you know how do we play apart in which health for our
students, faculty and staff toboth pursue what's important to
them and support them throughthat whole health paradigm.
So we developed seven focusareas or domains, with standards
under each, all of those areas,and we believe, like all those
(23:07):
areas, you must institutionalizethose through our structures,
our processes and our rewardsystem and it needs to be
communicated and everyone needsto experience it what a whole
health is and it must beroutinely assessed as that, you
(23:28):
know, close the loop with thequality assessments.
So where we're at now it's brandnew.
So you know, we're just it'siterative for us.
We're just moving forward.
We established seven domainsand those related standards.
We conducted a self-evaluationand launched a plan to close
(23:51):
those gaps where we weren'tcoming up to snuff on those
standards that we created and webegan implementing the whole
health approach in our SCUhealth centers and clinics.
We're launching a comprehensiveorientation and whole health
experience for all our staff,faculty and students.
(24:13):
We're appointing a chief wholehealth officer.
We eventually will hopefullywe'll launch that this year, if
not next launching a center forwhole health education and
training and I already mentionedwe launched the doctor of whole
health leadership degreeprogram.
(24:33):
So those are our steps towardsthat and we're hoping that other
universities, not just healthscience related universities,
but all universities, will wantto catch on to what a whole
health university paradigm is.
Speaker 1 (24:53):
Well, it's very interesting and you made a
statement earlier that I thoughtwas very interesting.
You said you have launchedthese new programs.
They take some time to you know, initiate and get going, that
you're debt-free and you don'tspend more money than you have
to get these programs launched.
How much time does it take,like just a PA program, for
(25:13):
example?
How much time does that take tolaunch and become profitable?
Speaker 2 (25:20):
Yeah, that's a great question when we launched it and
now to get in the queue you'rewaiting longer.
But it's similar to many ofthese what we call high-cost,
high-barrier programs.
(25:40):
What we call high cost, highbarrier programs, and what I
mean by high barrier it'sthere's an accreditor that it's
taking several years for you toapply, that you'd like to start
a new program, and then they putyou in a queue and they can.
Sometimes, you know you canwait from three to five years
(26:01):
from when you start the process.
So that's a high barrier andhigh cost is you're investing,
you know, quite a lot ofresources prior to even sitting
your first student student.
(26:24):
So when we launched, you knowwe were looking at, close to you
know, a million dollars in, or750 to a million dollars in in
program costs before the new,the students even came into that
new program.
You're hiring your director at acertain time, right, or your
program director.
Then there's your principalfaculty that you need to start
(26:50):
hiring a certain time before sothat you can start developing
your program, starting to writeyour first self-study for the
accreditor, and then, as you getcloser and closer, you're
hiring more individuals.
You need to find rotations forthose students.
(27:14):
So you need to reach out andyou have to hire somebody to
reach out to hospitals andclinics and other offices and
get agreements signed, which iskind of tough when you're
starting a program, because notonly is the program three years
away, right, they may not berotating through those until a
(27:38):
year after the program evenlaunches.
So you're four or five yearsaway when you start looking for
those particular sites for therotation.
So it does take a lot ofresources and commitment from
the board, from the otherfaculty, from all your support
(28:01):
offices, and everyone needs tobe you know, they need to buy in
and they need to be rowing allin the same direction.
Once we started theinfrastructure, that's the other
thing.
To do this right.
Every new program we bring inis a new accreditor, okay.
So now we're getting you know,accreditation visits, you know,
(28:24):
much more frequently than if wejust had one or two programs.
This fall we had three, three,you know, site visits.
Yes, we have two, we have twoin the spring, we have two in
(28:47):
this in in the spring.
So you have to have, you know,an infrastructure to be able to,
you know, continually to bringthese programs on.
And it's, you know, it's acommitment from from everyone,
from the board chair all the waydown to you know our facilities
, people people.
Speaker 1 (29:02):
I guess if, from what I've heard here, if I was a
university president, I'd putyou as a consultant, I'd hire
you because you've gone throughit.
But you know, I see what you'redoing step by step and I think
that if universities areinterested in that, they do well
to get some counseling on thisbefore they get off on a program
, because you can save them alot of time and money.
Speaker 2 (29:22):
Well, you know we've.
You know I've spoken to severalof my colleagues who are moving
down this path and have shared,you know, my experiences.
You know with them as well.
But you know, when I set out todo this, this isn't something
that you do overnight, it's,it's a long strategic plan and
(29:48):
you know there's there's alsochange management that comes
with that and I don't you know,I'm not telling any anybody to.
You know, take any changemanagement strategy over another
, they, they tend to be aboutthis.
You know the same components,but you know I, I took a change
(30:09):
management strategy.
I looked at, you know, I think,a compelling vision to, to move
into, you know, this integratedwhole health concept.
And, um, you know you have tomotivate and you have to inspire
people to be, uh on, on thesame page.
(30:30):
And, um, you know it's, it's um, messy at times and you need to
expect, you know, that mess,but you try to mitigate as many
of those deterrents as you canand keep on the path forward.
Speaker 1 (30:48):
Lastly, did you have any problems with the
chiropractic alumni thinking itwas going from a chiropractic
college to you?
Know, not a chiropracticcollege.
Speaker 2 (30:59):
You know that is such an insightful, you know
question.
We did, you know I think therewere.
You know some that you know, Idon't know my.
My glass tends to be half fulland and not half empty, and I
would get people saying whenthey heard I was bringing, you
(31:22):
know, the physician's assistantprogram, which I think was you
know, it was a very strategicmove for us because we saw where
they were going to be the firstcontact of of many types of
specialties, not just in primarycare, and and thought, well,
(31:44):
let's train them alongside ourchiropractors and acupuncturists
so that, you know, theyunderstand us.
And if the insurance company orthe system they're in already
have chiropractors or oracupuncturists as a resource,
they would be more apt to referto that.
So, as far as alums and otherchiropractors, what came to me
(32:09):
is well, why are you bringingthis physician's assistant
program?
Don't you think that thosechiropractors would want to
become physician's assistantsnow?
And my response was why do youthink that they're going to
influence our chiropracticstudents in a negative fashion
(32:29):
and not our chiropractorstudents influencing the
physician's assistant studentsin a positive fashion?
And that's what we found.
I mean, you know, we're notmaking chiropractors physicians
assistants.
That's a different profession.
We work together with that andthose students that come into
(32:52):
our chiropractic program want tobecome chiropractors and
respect all the otherprofessions that they learn with
.
And that's the same with theoccupational therapy students we
have, the physician's assistantstudents we have.
They're all appreciating,respecting and understanding
(33:16):
what role the chiropractor andthe acupuncture and Ayurvedic
practitioners can bring to ahealthcare team.
Speaker 1 (33:24):
I think, through all the things we've talked about
here, the one thing that'ssticking with me now is what
matters to the patient.
To me, that's a critical thingto pay attention to, and so I
want to end on that.
But I want to thank you becauseI said if I was a university
president, I'd be calling youright now for a consulting fee
(33:48):
because I want to have yourexperience in the process that I
think has been so valuable.
So you've been out there wayahead, john, and I really want
to thank you for coming out toactivate your practice, because
there's going to be a lot ofpeople listening to this and I
think you've given great insight.
Speaker 2 (34:07):
Well, thank you, earl .
I appreciate the kind words andit's going to sound like a
cliche a strong team and a corefaculty and staff to really
support and believe in thevision.
None of this would happen.
(34:28):
So I appreciate your kind words.
Speaker 1 (34:32):
Well, thank you, and we'll be looking forward to
coming over.
You know we have a greatactivator program at SCU and I
love your dean, dr Anna Faconato.
I've known her for years andyou picked a great one there.
And Dr Capon is doing a lot forour activator program so we're
(34:53):
happy to be involved with you.
Speaker 2 (34:54):
We appreciate you.
Thank you very much for all youdo.
Speaker 1 (34:58):
Thank you, Thanks everybody, for tuning in to
Activate your Practice.
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