June 25, 2025 • 26 mins
What happens when a doctor becomes the patient? Dr. Cindy Howard, a survivor of Hodgkin's lymphoma, takes us through her remarkable journey from self-diagnosis to complete recovery, offering a master class in integrating conventional and functional medicine approaches along the way.
Ten years ago, Dr. Howard woke up with a golf ball-sized lymph node in her neck. Drawing on her medical expertise, she diagnosed herself with Hodgkin's lymphoma and made the critical decision to pursue both chemotherapy and functional medicine treatments simultaneously. "If I don't fix the terrain that cancer grew in, what makes me think I won't wind up there again?" she explains, articulating a philosophy that guided her through recovery and continues to inform her approach to health.
Throughout her six-month chemotherapy treatment, Dr. Howard supplemented with high-dose IV vitamin C and approximately 150 different nutritional supplements while maintaining a pristine diet of organic, whole foods. Despite facing resistance from the medical establishment—including being denied access to a less toxic chemotherapy protocol—she advocated fiercely for her health, refusing recommended radiation therapy after completing chemotherapy. Today, she remains cancer-free while managing the side effects of treatment, including reduced lung capacity.
Dr. Howard's personal experience has deeply informed her professional work with patients facing various health challenges. She shares practical insights on concussion treatment, emphasizing anti-inflammatory supplements like omega fatty acids, Boswellia, and magnesium threonate. For diabetes management, she recommends berberine HCl, chromium, and cinnamon as natural alternatives to pharmaceuticals. Her passionate approach to women's health stems from her belief that symptoms like menstrual cramps and menopausal discomfort are "common but not normal" and can be effectively addressed.
Ready to take control of your health journey? Listen now to discover how one doctor's personal battle with cancer transformed her approach to medicine and might just change your perspective on healing too.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
Hi, I'm Dr Arlen Ford , the Chairman and Founder of
Activator Methods International,and today I have a special
guest here, dr Cindy Howard.
Cindy has been through, I'd say, hell and back and I'd like to
talk to her, and she survivedcancer.
She's a cancer survivor and wejust thought it would be a good
(00:24):
thing for her to help anybodythat was dealing with cancer and
that they may have learnedsomething from her.
So good day to you, dr Howard.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
Good day to you, and I have to tell you I might have
been to Holland back, but I madeit fun on the journey.
Speaker 1 (00:43):
That's the difference .
That's the most important thing.
Tell me a little bit about howit started and where you've come
from there.
Just let's take it in sections,okay, how did it start and when
did it start?
Speaker 2 (00:54):
So a little over 10 years ago, I woke up one day
with a giant lymph node stickingout of my neck.
It was like the size of a golfball and I thought that was kind
of weird.
I don't feel sick, and I waiteda couple of days and I still
didn't get sick.
And I thought that was evenweirder because usually you know
there's an illness that followswhen the lymph node starts to
pop.
And you know it was one ofthose things where I got a
(01:16):
little nervous.
And you know, sometimes whenyou're a doctor, you know too
much and you know it's that.
You know you go to school, youlearn a few things and then you
have every disease that youlearned about in your
microbiology book, right.
So it was one of those where Iwent.
Hmm, I wonder if I shouldoverreact or if I should check
this out.
So I decided to check it out andthrough a bunch of blood work
and an x-ray and a CT scan andeventually a PET scan, I got to
(01:38):
diagnose myself with Hodgkin'slymphoma, which is a little
weird to not sit across thetable from a doctor but to be
the person who reads the testresults and go oh shoot, I'm in
big trouble here.
So it was about 10 years agothat I discovered that and made
a pretty huge decision, througha lot of questioning and
(01:59):
research, to go ahead and getsome allopathic treatment but
really to co-treat myself on thenatural side, because I knew
that you know, in the world ofmedicine sometimes they as I
like to joke kill you while theykeep you alive, and you know
there's a lot of bad stuff thatthey use to try to keep you
alive, and I really wanted toclean up the mess that they
created.
So I incorporated really bothavenues of medicine and, you
(02:23):
know, a little over 10 yearslater I'm here to tell the story
, which is great.
Speaker 1 (02:27):
Tell me a little bit what you say about the other
side.
In other words, I think you'retalking about functional
medicine.
Speaker 2 (02:35):
Well, actually I'd say functional medicine is the
good side, right?
So you know I.
Speaker 1 (02:38):
I was referring to it .
Speaker 2 (02:39):
yes, Right, yeah, so you know the whole philosophy.
No-transcript root cause of whyI think that I got there and
(03:13):
what else wasn't working in mybody well and fixing that while
going through the treatment, Ithink is what gets us through
better.
Right, because even if weattack cancer and we get rid of
the cancer itself, if I don'tfix the terrain that the cancer
grew in in the first place, whatmakes me think I won't wind up
there again and I think that's areally important point for
(03:36):
everybody to realize, no matterwhat disease process you're
walking through is how bad wasthe terrain that you got there
and we need to clean that up.
Speaker 1 (03:44):
Exactly.
Speaker 2 (03:50):
And what were some of the things that you?
How did you start cleaning itup?
Well, I went a little obsessivecompulsive, you might say,
because I have access to a lotof this stuff.
So the first thing I did wasrun a bunch of tests.
I looked for heavy metals, Iran gut function studies, I ran
micronutrient tests to see if Iwas deficient in anything.
I mean, I was looking foranything I could possibly find
that could have been wrong in mybody and started to supplement
(04:11):
as such.
But I also got really perfectwith my food, and I'm going to
take that back because I don'tknow how to teach anybody to be
perfect with their food thesedays.
You know, my joke is is if I, ifI tell you to be perfect,
you're kind of dead because Igot nothing left to give you and
I can rationalize almostanything out of somebody's diet.
But I still cleaned it up whereeverything was organic or
(04:32):
grass-fed or clean and there wasnothing processed, no sugar,
nothing that had a chemical init, and everything was grown on
a tree or a vine or in theground or slaughtered or fished
for.
A little graphic there, I guess.
But just getting back to wholegood food, where I was a good
eater before I became a greateater, it was really important
(04:52):
to make sure that I was feedingthe body things that it could
use and not things that had tofigure out how to process
through.
So with good supplementationand good food that really helped
to support my environmentbetter A to handle the treatment
and then to recover and stayhealthy, you know, for this 10
plus years.
Speaker 1 (05:09):
What was the treatment?
The medical treatment.
Speaker 2 (05:13):
Chemo.
So actually this is aninteresting story.
So when I was first, you know,diagnosing myself, I made a very
important phone call to afriend of mine, Dr Michael
Taylor, who practices out inTulsa, Oklahoma, A very good
friend, doctor of chiropracticwho I trust with my life.
And I said, Mike, I've goteverything covered.
(05:36):
I'm going to go to Germany.
I need you to connect me toClinic St George, which is a
clinic in Germany.
They're doing cancer verydifferent than we do here in the
United States.
And he said to me Cindy, you'renot going to Germany, You're
going to stay in this country,You're going to do chemotherapy
and you're going to live.
And I said, Mike, I'm not doingchemotherapy, it's poison.
I don't want this stuff in mybody.
I'm very opposed to this.
I think there are better waysand fortunately, or
(05:59):
unfortunately, Hodgkin'slymphoma, which is what I walked
through, is 85% curable withchemotherapy.
So I had to swallow my pride alittle bit and after a lot of
prayer, a lot of thought and alittle more homework, I thought,
okay, he's probably right.
So I wound up interviewing acouple different oncologists,
(06:19):
because the standard of care forchemotherapy is four different
drugs and the abbreviation isABVD and there are four
different very strongchemotherapy medications and at
the time I was diagnosed therewas a great clinical study to
get rid of the B drug, whichstands for bleomycin.
Bleomycin is probably one ofthe most toxic.
(06:40):
It causes heart problems andlung problems and a lot of the
side effects we get at the end.
So they were running a studywhere they did it with the three
drugs minus the bleomycin and Isaid, okay, great, At least
sign me up for that.
And they said you're not sickenough.
And this is what's wrong withthat world.
Because I was diagnosed stage2B and the trial was stage three
or four, they wouldn't let meinto the trial.
(07:02):
So I said I'll tell you whatdon't put me in the trial, Don't
even put this through insurance, I'll just write the check.
I don't want the bleomycin.
And they wouldn't let me do it.
Wow, Right.
So even as a cash patient, Iwas told you can't have that
treatment.
It's not standard of care, werefuse to do it.
So unfortunately, I decided togo the ABVD route and along with
(07:23):
that I was doing high doses ofIV vitamin C.
The day before, the day of theday after, I was popping about
150 different pills to supportmy nutrients and I went through
the treatment and six monthslater I now have a couple lovely
side effects from the bleomycin.
It did cause lung damage.
I'm at about 76% lung capacityand I've got this lovely thing
(07:47):
called Raynaud's.
That hinders me just a littlebit and I've learned how to
control that.
So I did wind up with somepretty good side effects.
But I guess, as the joke goes,I'm alive to complain about the
side effects, which is betterthan being dead and not
complaining at all.
So I took that.
But there's some pretty harshchemicals that you put in the
body and when you hear the wordcure you know sometimes you
(08:11):
change your mind as to what yourbelief system was prior,
because until you walk that walkit's really hard to know what
the right choice really is.
Speaker 1 (08:19):
Exactly so.
Now, how long did it take youto come through the bad part?
Speaker 2 (08:26):
Six months.
Speaker 1 (08:28):
Six months.
Speaker 2 (08:29):
Six months was the treatment.
Speaker 1 (08:31):
Then it got better.
Speaker 2 (08:33):
It got better.
So you know it's funny.
So after my sixth, at thesix-month mark, we did a full
body PET scan, which is alwaysreally fun, because they put you
in a room and they, you know,inject radioactive dye and then
they walk out of the roombecause you're radioactive, so
not very healthy, and you getthe scan back and they say
congratulations, you knowthere's, there's no more cancer.
And on that visit theoncologist says to me okay,
(08:56):
great, now we're going to referyou to somebody for radiation.
And I said well, what are youradiating?
And they said well, the areawhere the tumors were, because
it increases your chance by 5%.
And I said but if there's notumor there, you're actually
radiating healthy tissue.
And I said to them you know thesequela when you read all the
literature is that 20 yearslater you develop leukemia after
(09:17):
you walk through lymphoma.
And I said you know why, Ithink, people get leukemia?
I think because you radiate thecrap out of them every six
months for the next five yearsand you damage the tissue that
leads them down the path ofleukemia.
So I said you know what?
I'm going to take my chancesfor that extra 5%, thank you.
And I refused the radiation andwalked out of the facility and
(09:38):
never turned around.
And I had a really good fightwith the oncologist because I
wouldn't go for the repeat scansevery six months.
And I said, you know what?
I can run my own blood work.
I still do it to this day everythree to four months because I
know what to look for.
And I said you know, ifsomething goes wonky I'll come
back in and do the scans.
But I certainly don't want todo it prophylactically, so that
you know I'm back in your officeand we're going through this
(10:00):
again in a few more years andnever look back.
And that was really the end ofthe allopathic treatment on the
cancer journey.
And I still continue to runlabs and supplement and eat
right and you know, do all ofthose good things that can keep
the terrain healthy.
You know, for the next I'mgoing to live to be 112.
So I got a few more years thatI got to take care of myself.
Speaker 1 (10:20):
Well, exactly Now, what?
How do you?
I know you said it's allorganic and it was all you know,
like the beef was pasture, allthat kind of stuff.
But what do you do if you goout and eat?
Speaker 2 (10:34):
It's a great question the best I can right.
So you know, I definitely tryto stay away from a lot of the
chain restaurants because youjust know the source of food is
not going to be as high qualityright Like I try to go to
restaurants that are more familyowned, where at least they tell
you that they're getting bettersourced meats and you do the
best you can.
But at the same time I do eathome a lot.
For that reason, because I havea little bit more control over
(10:56):
what I put in my mouth than at arestaurant where you really
don't know.
Speaker 1 (11:00):
Well, one of our doctors wrote a best-selling
Times book and it was six thingsthat you do to stay well, and
number two was don't eat out.
That was one of the main thingsthat he said to do, and so I
agree with you 100% and you'reon the road, I mean, you know.
So you have to deal with thatNow.
(11:21):
In your daily diet, do you takea lot of vitamins now?
Speaker 2 (11:26):
I would say medium amount.
So after popping 150 pillsagain, if I never saw a capsule
again, it you know it's too soon, right?
So it was really hard for meafter to continue that type of
regimen.
So I've got a little magictrick Most of my supplements I
actually dump into a smoothie inthe morning.
I make a drink with coconutwater and I throw my protein in
there and all the supplementsthat I possibly can in a powder
(11:49):
or liquid or open up the capsuleform and I drink my supplements
now because it's so much easierto get down than swallowing a
bunch of pills.
But I still follow a regimenand I still recheck my labs all
the time to tweak what I needand what I don't, because I'm a
big fan of also if you don'tneed it, don't put it in.
Speaker 1 (12:05):
Exactly, I mean it's common sense and so sometimes
yeah, Also I understand that youhave done some concussion work
on athletes.
Speaker 2 (12:21):
I have.
So you know, it's funny how youfall into things, right, you
know, and how they becomeimportant to you.
I have three kids, two boys,and both boys played tackle
football and in my community,unfortunately, they start too
young, right?
Because if they start young,then they get the spots when
they're older and that's justsort of the way of the world.
So what happened is I was onthe sidelines of the game and I
(12:46):
was the team mom and the teamphotographer and I've also sat
on.
You know, I sit on the board.
When I sat I don't anymorebecause the kids are older, but
I sat on the board for theorganization and on the
sidelines I watched two boys,not my own but of the team.
I watched two boys go head tohead, hit the front of their
helmets, both back on theirbacks on the floor on the field,
and I immediately, you know,turned into a chiropractor
(13:06):
instead of the team mom and Iran right out to the field.
The boy from the opposite teamturns out, he popped up, ran off
to the side of the field.
So I figured, okay, that teamcan be responsible for him.
And I was tending to one of ourathletes because there was no
athletic trainer on the fieldfor that game.
And I looked at the opposingcoach, who ran out as well, and
I said please do not touch thatchild.
(13:28):
He needs to be assessed notonly for concussion but for
spinal injury.
It is inappropriate to movethat child till we know it's
safe.
And he started to gank on thatchild's arm and says we have a
football game to play and I saidI don't think you heard me Like
that is not a safe thing to do.
I identified myself as achiropractor and I said please
don't touch him.
He picked the child up in frontof me and walked him off the
(13:49):
sidelines.
Now, after being completelylivid and disgusted, I assessed
the child.
Thank God, no spinal injuryTurns out he was concussed and
we took good care of him and hewound up being absolutely fine.
But as a result of that entireexperience, concussion became
really important to me and Ithought you know we've got to do
(14:10):
a better job educating peoplenot only on the signs and
symptoms of concussion but whatto do when you're concussed.
And because I have, you know, aspecialty in internal medicine
and nutrition, I decided to takethat work and couple it where
now I love to run around thecountry and educate other people
on pre and post concussionnutrition and how to help not
only kids but adults and thentherefore professional athletes,
(14:32):
because a concussion is aconcussion regardless of what
age you are, and there's so manygreat things that we can do to
help speed up that recovery sothat we don't hear those
terrible stories 20, 30 yearslater of people who are really
suffering neurologically as aresult of improper care.
And it was that impetus thatreally got me interested.
Speaker 1 (14:53):
Well, I'd like to know what, just roughly what
kind of vitamins and supplementsand so forth do you use for a
concussion?
Speaker 2 (15:01):
Yeah.
So sometimes, again, it dependson tests, but just some basic
things that we look at is welook at omega fatty acids, which
are really great.
We look at Boswellia, whichhelps to reduce the inflammation
.
We use a lot of magnesiumthreonate, which crosses the
blood-brain barrier, so it helpsfrom that standpoint.
We also have to pull out anysort of food that can be
(15:23):
inflammatory.
So no chemicals, no aspartamefood colorings, no caffeine, no
alcohol, no sugar.
That's also equally important.
On top of some of thesupplementation, resveratrol is
another great one to lowerinflammation.
There's some great studies onzinc, so we use a ton of zinc
very carefully to make sure thatwe don't get the levels too
(15:43):
high.
But yet for that short termwe'll supplement that way.
Sometimes we'll use some aminoacids as well, especially if
there's damage or we start tosee some neurological changes
where there's anxiety ordepression, and the amino acids
can really cause a betterbalance of the neurotransmitters
.
So we don't see some of themood or behavior changes as a
result.
So it's, there's a.
Speaker 1 (16:05):
There's a pretty good gamut of things we can pick
from, depending again how severe, what the symptoms are that
they're expressing, and thenlaboratory tests that we find
you said no sugar, which broughtme to think of something else,
because there's so much onlowering blood sugar today in
the United States, sort of youknow, pre-diabetes part type 2
(16:25):
diabetes Is there.
Do you have a regime for type 2diabetes, for lowering blood
glucose?
Speaker 2 (16:31):
Yeah, so food-wise it is just that right.
And it's not just the sugarpeople think about, it's also
some of the carbohydrates.
So you know, if you live onbaked potatoes, that
carbohydrate is going to convertto a sugar in the body.
So I always say it's whitethings, right.
White sugar, white flours,white rice, et cetera.
Anything that is typicallywhite can also convert.
(16:52):
Then we can start to do thingslike chromium percolonate,
berberine.
Hcl is really good at loweringhemoglobin A1C levels.
Strontium may play a role.
Speaker 1 (17:03):
Tell me that again.
Oh, go ahead, I'm sorry, theone that was so good in lowering
ACE1s.
Speaker 2 (17:08):
Oh, berberine, berberine.
Berberine, which is an herbthat comes from golden seal,
berberine, hcl, and it actuallybehaves very similar to the
GLP-1s now that everybody'sclamoring towards that aren't
necessarily so safe.
So when we use a regimen ofthings like cinnamon and
chromium with the berberine, wefind that that hemoglobin A1C,
(17:29):
along with a good diet, can'tget away without.
That tends to lower that A1Clevel without the use of some of
the drugs that people seem toget stuck on out there.
So in the world of functionalmedicine, it's great because I'd
like to think I have analternative for every
pharmaceutical out there.
Speaker 1 (17:44):
Well, that's a good thing.
I mean, if you it is a goodthing because if you're a
practitioner, you run into allkinds of problems and you're
also into women's health.
Tell me about that a little bit.
Speaker 2 (17:58):
Oh, so you know, by default, right?
I mean, most of the people thatcome into my practice are women
and, let's face it, when themen come in, they're dragged in
by the women in their lives mostof the time.
So you know, taking care ofwomen mainly in a practice,
you're going to come acrossthings like fatigue,
premenstrual syndrome,perimenopause issues, menopausal
(18:19):
dysfunction, and you know, atsome point you make the decision
that you either have to takethat on or you've got to find a
practitioner that's really goodat it to refer out and I'm not a
big fan of referring unlessit's something I don't know.
I love to take things on.
So the women's health becamereally important.
I also had an amazing mentor.
I don't know if you remember DrFrank Strahl, he's been gone
(18:42):
for quite a while now but Franktaught obstetrics and gynecology
at National University, whichis where I graduated, and I was
in his very first obstetrics andgynecology at National
University, which is where Igraduated, and I was in his very
first obstetrics and gynecologyclass and I thought it was the
strangest thing that here I amgoing to chiropractic school and
I wanted to be a sportschiropractor, like about 80% of
my class, and Frank's up theretalking about, like vaginal
(19:03):
health and testicular health,and I'm like what does this have
to do with chiropractic?
It doesn't make any sense to me.
Well, you know, it may not havea direct correlation, but at
the same time it comes back towhole body health.
And what's really interestingis, even if you think about it
from a low back pain standpoint,how many patients walk into a
practice with low back painunresolved doesn't get better
(19:25):
and, as it turns out, it'sprostate cancer that's referring
to the low back.
So I started to gain anappreciation for pelvic health,
both in men and women, and therelationship it has to low back
pain, and realized this isactually really more important
than I realized when I signed upfor the program of chiropractic
and just really, from thatpoint on, with his leadership
(19:45):
and his mentorship, fell in lovewith women's health, because I
think there's so many of us outthere that think what we go
through is normal and it'sactually common and not normal.
Right, it's not okay to havecramps when you have a period
and it's not okay to have hotflashes when you're in menopause
and all of those differentsymptoms I think have become
(20:06):
normalized and accepted in oursociety and women don't know
what to do about it and I'd loveto share that.
You know there is something youcan do about it and it's
absolutely fixable and it'sreally fun to take that on and
accomplish those things for, youknow, for the women that walk
into the practice, because theygo from miserable to really
happy, and that's that's a greatpath.
Speaker 1 (20:26):
What would you say?
Do you have probably 70% womenin your practice?
Speaker 2 (20:33):
Maybe even a little higher, probably 70 to 80, you
know, and I I mean I treat kids,I treat elderly, but I do.
I see a lot of young women, youknow, 12, 13, 14, 15 years old,
that are also having troublewith their periods all the way
through.
You know everybody who's in myclub that's already menopausal
and you know wanting to findthat youth again, where you know
(20:55):
it's not painful to walkthrough the hormonal changes.
Speaker 1 (20:57):
What do you think about the upcoming geriatric
population?
Speaker 2 (21:03):
Well, you know what?
They're just as important asour young population, right?
You know, I think the shame ofit is is, a lot of time, as we
get older, we get written offand we even do that to ourselves
, right?
So there's people who will sitin my office and go oh well,
it's just because I'm older andI never let anybody use that as
an excuse in my office.
So, as we age, things do change.
(21:25):
There's no denying that, right.
There's things that break downor things that are produced less
of or more challenges, but Inever let anybody use it as an
excuse to accept the changes,right?
So we can look at those thingsand implement something to halt
them, to change them, to improvethem.
So that, really, at the end ofthe day you know, I have this
(21:45):
joke I say I want everybody tolive, to be 112 and one day lay
down and you don't wake up.
That's how we're supposed to go.
Right, exactly how we'resupposed to go and my number is
112, which is why I picked that.
If yours is something else,that's okay and we can work with
it, but I want everybody toknow that they really can feel
good, whether they're 10 yearsold or 90 years old.
Neither is an excuse to say sayit's okay that I have symptoms
(22:09):
and I feel lousy.
Speaker 1 (22:11):
What's your greatest feedback and the most fun you
have when you go lecturing?
Speaker 2 (22:19):
Oh, you know it's, so it's fun it's.
You know what it's a?
I love to stand on stage andknow that somebody paid at least
$5 to hear me speak.
You know, after having threekids and you know you talk and
you talk and you talk and youwonder if anybody's listening to
you.
It's really cool to stand upand be heard.
(22:39):
I think what's really rewardingfor me actually comes after
that, and that's when somebodywalks up to me afterward and
says you know what I haveexactly what you're talking
about, or I have a patient thathas exactly what you're talking
about.
Can you help them?
And then we do.
And it's nice to know becauseif they approach me that way, it
gives me an indication theyprobably didn't know how to get
(23:00):
help prior.
And if that one presentationgives somebody that direction to
accomplish something in a goodway, then that's the high for me
and I just love it.
I love to educate people andtake the information and, you
know, go get everybody.
Well.
Speaker 1 (23:15):
Well, that's where you get your enthusiasm from.
It's it shows that that's whereyou're having fun.
And have you ever had stagefright?
Speaker 2 (23:26):
I don't know.
I mean I still get a littlenervous sometimes, which you
know, whoever they I'm stilltrying to figure out who they
are in that sentence, but youknow sometimes they say that
even you know the highest levelspeakers still kind of get
butterflies and a little bit ofnerves when they go out.
It's almost like more of ananxiousness just to get there
(23:48):
and do it right, vers versussort of that stage fright.
I mean I probably had it thefirst time and then I think I
got over it pretty quick becauseI just love it.
Speaker 1 (23:56):
I remember the day that I got over it.
It was in Parker and I walkedacross the stage and it was like
a full house and I think I was28 years old or something and we
had it at Madison Square Gardenin New York and there were
6,000 people there.
It was Jim Parker's heyday andI walked out there and I all of
a sudden realized I wasn'tscared and it was one of the
(24:16):
best days of my life.
But I had worked at it and, asyou have worked at it, and so
when you know your material,that's what gets rid of it.
And so you know, speaking,public speaking, is the number
one fear of people, and sothat's why you've overcome it,
because you've got a goodmessage and you're not afraid to
tell it and you know you're outthere.
(24:39):
You're a pro.
Speaker 2 (24:41):
Oh well, thank you.
And I never get on stage andtalk about something I don't
know about.
You know.
So it's easy, right, when youknow your stuff.
Speaker 1 (24:51):
Well, it sounds like you've experienced most of it.
I have.
I think that's the other thing.
That's important is youexperience it.
Inactivator we're looking at thegeriatric population, probably
because I'm a geriatric butwe're looking at that and we're
coming up with some things to dowhen people have had a replaced
knee or a replaced hip or youknow something like that.
And inactivator we don't hurtthe patient, so they can be
(25:14):
treated quite easily, and sothat's one of the things that
I'm into and that's why I askedyou about geriatrics what you
thought about it, because halfthe population in the country
will be over 65 by 2030.
Will be over 65 by 2030.
And so that's why we'remajoring on it.
So you have covered a lot ofground here and I appreciate it.
(25:37):
I know you're busy, Iappreciate you coming on and I
can't thank you enough forsharing, and feel free to use
this with your people too,because we want as many people
to find you know if they've gotanother problem and like you had
, and you found a solution andyou were brave and that was a
great thing.
So thank you very much, cindy,for being on the program.
Speaker 2 (26:00):
Oh, my absolute pleasure.
Anything I can do to help youjust reach out.
Speaker 1 (26:04):
That's what I'm here for.
Thank you very much.
Hi, I'm Dr Arlen Ford , the Chairman and Founder of
Activator Methods International,and today I have a special
guest here, dr Cindy Howard.
Cindy has been through, I'd say, hell and back and I'd like to
talk to her, and she survivedcancer.
She's a cancer survivor and wejust thought it would be a good
(00:24):
thing for her to help anybodythat was dealing with cancer and
that they may have learnedsomething from her.
So good day to you, dr Howard.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
Good day to you, and I have to tell you I might have
been to Holland back, but I madeit fun on the journey.
Speaker 1 (00:43):
That's the difference .
That's the most important thing.
Tell me a little bit about howit started and where you've come
from there.
Just let's take it in sections,okay, how did it start and when
did it start?
Speaker 2 (00:54):
So a little over 10 years ago, I woke up one day
with a giant lymph node stickingout of my neck.
It was like the size of a golfball and I thought that was kind
of weird.
I don't feel sick, and I waiteda couple of days and I still
didn't get sick.
And I thought that was evenweirder because usually you know
there's an illness that followswhen the lymph node starts to
pop.
And you know it was one ofthose things where I got a
(01:16):
little nervous.
And you know, sometimes whenyou're a doctor, you know too
much and you know it's that.
You know you go to school, youlearn a few things and then you
have every disease that youlearned about in your
microbiology book, right.
So it was one of those where Iwent.
Hmm, I wonder if I shouldoverreact or if I should check
this out.
So I decided to check it out andthrough a bunch of blood work
and an x-ray and a CT scan andeventually a PET scan, I got to
(01:38):
diagnose myself with Hodgkin'slymphoma, which is a little
weird to not sit across thetable from a doctor but to be
the person who reads the testresults and go oh shoot, I'm in
big trouble here.
So it was about 10 years agothat I discovered that and made
a pretty huge decision, througha lot of questioning and
(01:59):
research, to go ahead and getsome allopathic treatment but
really to co-treat myself on thenatural side, because I knew
that you know, in the world ofmedicine sometimes they as I
like to joke kill you while theykeep you alive, and you know
there's a lot of bad stuff thatthey use to try to keep you
alive, and I really wanted toclean up the mess that they
created.
So I incorporated really bothavenues of medicine and, you
(02:23):
know, a little over 10 yearslater I'm here to tell the story
, which is great.
Speaker 1 (02:27):
Tell me a little bit what you say about the other
side.
In other words, I think you'retalking about functional
medicine.
Speaker 2 (02:35):
Well, actually I'd say functional medicine is the
good side, right?
So you know I.
Speaker 1 (02:38):
I was referring to it .
Speaker 2 (02:39):
yes, Right, yeah, so you know the whole philosophy.
No-transcript root cause of whyI think that I got there and
(03:13):
what else wasn't working in mybody well and fixing that while
going through the treatment, Ithink is what gets us through
better.
Right, because even if weattack cancer and we get rid of
the cancer itself, if I don'tfix the terrain that the cancer
grew in in the first place, whatmakes me think I won't wind up
there again and I think that's areally important point for
(03:36):
everybody to realize, no matterwhat disease process you're
walking through is how bad wasthe terrain that you got there
and we need to clean that up.
Speaker 1 (03:44):
Exactly.
Speaker 2 (03:50):
And what were some of the things that you?
How did you start cleaning itup?
Well, I went a little obsessivecompulsive, you might say,
because I have access to a lotof this stuff.
So the first thing I did wasrun a bunch of tests.
I looked for heavy metals, Iran gut function studies, I ran
micronutrient tests to see if Iwas deficient in anything.
I mean, I was looking foranything I could possibly find
that could have been wrong in mybody and started to supplement
(04:11):
as such.
But I also got really perfectwith my food, and I'm going to
take that back because I don'tknow how to teach anybody to be
perfect with their food thesedays.
You know, my joke is is if I, ifI tell you to be perfect,
you're kind of dead because Igot nothing left to give you and
I can rationalize almostanything out of somebody's diet.
But I still cleaned it up whereeverything was organic or
(04:32):
grass-fed or clean and there wasnothing processed, no sugar,
nothing that had a chemical init, and everything was grown on
a tree or a vine or in theground or slaughtered or fished
for.
A little graphic there, I guess.
But just getting back to wholegood food, where I was a good
eater before I became a greateater, it was really important
(04:52):
to make sure that I was feedingthe body things that it could
use and not things that had tofigure out how to process
through.
So with good supplementationand good food that really helped
to support my environmentbetter A to handle the treatment
and then to recover and stayhealthy, you know, for this 10
plus years.
Speaker 1 (05:09):
What was the treatment?
The medical treatment.
Speaker 2 (05:13):
Chemo.
So actually this is aninteresting story.
So when I was first, you know,diagnosing myself, I made a very
important phone call to afriend of mine, Dr Michael
Taylor, who practices out inTulsa, Oklahoma, A very good
friend, doctor of chiropracticwho I trust with my life.
And I said, Mike, I've goteverything covered.
(05:36):
I'm going to go to Germany.
I need you to connect me toClinic St George, which is a
clinic in Germany.
They're doing cancer verydifferent than we do here in the
United States.
And he said to me Cindy, you'renot going to Germany, You're
going to stay in this country,You're going to do chemotherapy
and you're going to live.
And I said, Mike, I'm not doingchemotherapy, it's poison.
I don't want this stuff in mybody.
I'm very opposed to this.
I think there are better waysand fortunately, or
(05:59):
unfortunately, Hodgkin'slymphoma, which is what I walked
through, is 85% curable withchemotherapy.
So I had to swallow my pride alittle bit and after a lot of
prayer, a lot of thought and alittle more homework, I thought,
okay, he's probably right.
So I wound up interviewing acouple different oncologists,
(06:19):
because the standard of care forchemotherapy is four different
drugs and the abbreviation isABVD and there are four
different very strongchemotherapy medications and at
the time I was diagnosed therewas a great clinical study to
get rid of the B drug, whichstands for bleomycin.
Bleomycin is probably one ofthe most toxic.
(06:40):
It causes heart problems andlung problems and a lot of the
side effects we get at the end.
So they were running a studywhere they did it with the three
drugs minus the bleomycin and Isaid, okay, great, At least
sign me up for that.
And they said you're not sickenough.
And this is what's wrong withthat world.
Because I was diagnosed stage2B and the trial was stage three
or four, they wouldn't let meinto the trial.
(07:02):
So I said I'll tell you whatdon't put me in the trial, Don't
even put this through insurance, I'll just write the check.
I don't want the bleomycin.
And they wouldn't let me do it.
Wow, Right.
So even as a cash patient, Iwas told you can't have that
treatment.
It's not standard of care, werefuse to do it.
So unfortunately, I decided togo the ABVD route and along with
(07:23):
that I was doing high doses ofIV vitamin C.
The day before, the day of theday after, I was popping about
150 different pills to supportmy nutrients and I went through
the treatment and six monthslater I now have a couple lovely
side effects from the bleomycin.
It did cause lung damage.
I'm at about 76% lung capacityand I've got this lovely thing
(07:47):
called Raynaud's.
That hinders me just a littlebit and I've learned how to
control that.
So I did wind up with somepretty good side effects.
But I guess, as the joke goes,I'm alive to complain about the
side effects, which is betterthan being dead and not
complaining at all.
So I took that.
But there's some pretty harshchemicals that you put in the
body and when you hear the wordcure you know sometimes you
(08:11):
change your mind as to what yourbelief system was prior,
because until you walk that walkit's really hard to know what
the right choice really is.
Speaker 1 (08:19):
Exactly so.
Now, how long did it take youto come through the bad part?
Speaker 2 (08:26):
Six months.
Speaker 1 (08:28):
Six months.
Speaker 2 (08:29):
Six months was the treatment.
Speaker 1 (08:31):
Then it got better.
Speaker 2 (08:33):
It got better.
So you know it's funny.
So after my sixth, at thesix-month mark, we did a full
body PET scan, which is alwaysreally fun, because they put you
in a room and they, you know,inject radioactive dye and then
they walk out of the roombecause you're radioactive, so
not very healthy, and you getthe scan back and they say
congratulations, you knowthere's, there's no more cancer.
And on that visit theoncologist says to me okay,
(08:56):
great, now we're going to referyou to somebody for radiation.
And I said well, what are youradiating?
And they said well, the areawhere the tumors were, because
it increases your chance by 5%.
And I said but if there's notumor there, you're actually
radiating healthy tissue.
And I said to them you know thesequela when you read all the
literature is that 20 yearslater you develop leukemia after
(09:17):
you walk through lymphoma.
And I said you know why, Ithink, people get leukemia?
I think because you radiate thecrap out of them every six
months for the next five yearsand you damage the tissue that
leads them down the path ofleukemia.
So I said you know what?
I'm going to take my chancesfor that extra 5%, thank you.
And I refused the radiation andwalked out of the facility and
(09:38):
never turned around.
And I had a really good fightwith the oncologist because I
wouldn't go for the repeat scansevery six months.
And I said, you know what?
I can run my own blood work.
I still do it to this day everythree to four months because I
know what to look for.
And I said you know, ifsomething goes wonky I'll come
back in and do the scans.
But I certainly don't want todo it prophylactically, so that
you know I'm back in your officeand we're going through this
(10:00):
again in a few more years andnever look back.
And that was really the end ofthe allopathic treatment on the
cancer journey.
And I still continue to runlabs and supplement and eat
right and you know, do all ofthose good things that can keep
the terrain healthy.
You know, for the next I'mgoing to live to be 112.
So I got a few more years thatI got to take care of myself.
Speaker 1 (10:20):
Well, exactly Now, what?
How do you?
I know you said it's allorganic and it was all you know,
like the beef was pasture, allthat kind of stuff.
But what do you do if you goout and eat?
Speaker 2 (10:34):
It's a great question the best I can right.
So you know, I definitely tryto stay away from a lot of the
chain restaurants because youjust know the source of food is
not going to be as high qualityright Like I try to go to
restaurants that are more familyowned, where at least they tell
you that they're getting bettersourced meats and you do the
best you can.
But at the same time I do eathome a lot.
For that reason, because I havea little bit more control over
(10:56):
what I put in my mouth than at arestaurant where you really
don't know.
Speaker 1 (11:00):
Well, one of our doctors wrote a best-selling
Times book and it was six thingsthat you do to stay well, and
number two was don't eat out.
That was one of the main thingsthat he said to do, and so I
agree with you 100% and you'reon the road, I mean, you know.
So you have to deal with thatNow.
(11:21):
In your daily diet, do you takea lot of vitamins now?
Speaker 2 (11:26):
I would say medium amount.
So after popping 150 pillsagain, if I never saw a capsule
again, it you know it's too soon, right?
So it was really hard for meafter to continue that type of
regimen.
So I've got a little magictrick Most of my supplements I
actually dump into a smoothie inthe morning.
I make a drink with coconutwater and I throw my protein in
there and all the supplementsthat I possibly can in a powder
(11:49):
or liquid or open up the capsuleform and I drink my supplements
now because it's so much easierto get down than swallowing a
bunch of pills.
But I still follow a regimenand I still recheck my labs all
the time to tweak what I needand what I don't, because I'm a
big fan of also if you don'tneed it, don't put it in.
Speaker 1 (12:05):
Exactly, I mean it's common sense and so sometimes
yeah, Also I understand that youhave done some concussion work
on athletes.
Speaker 2 (12:21):
I have.
So you know, it's funny how youfall into things, right, you
know, and how they becomeimportant to you.
I have three kids, two boys,and both boys played tackle
football and in my community,unfortunately, they start too
young, right?
Because if they start young,then they get the spots when
they're older and that's justsort of the way of the world.
So what happened is I was onthe sidelines of the game and I
(12:46):
was the team mom and the teamphotographer and I've also sat
on.
You know, I sit on the board.
When I sat I don't anymorebecause the kids are older, but
I sat on the board for theorganization and on the
sidelines I watched two boys,not my own but of the team.
I watched two boys go head tohead, hit the front of their
helmets, both back on theirbacks on the floor on the field,
and I immediately, you know,turned into a chiropractor
(13:06):
instead of the team mom and Iran right out to the field.
The boy from the opposite teamturns out, he popped up, ran off
to the side of the field.
So I figured, okay, that teamcan be responsible for him.
And I was tending to one of ourathletes because there was no
athletic trainer on the fieldfor that game.
And I looked at the opposingcoach, who ran out as well, and
I said please do not touch thatchild.
(13:28):
He needs to be assessed notonly for concussion but for
spinal injury.
It is inappropriate to movethat child till we know it's
safe.
And he started to gank on thatchild's arm and says we have a
football game to play and I saidI don't think you heard me Like
that is not a safe thing to do.
I identified myself as achiropractor and I said please
don't touch him.
He picked the child up in frontof me and walked him off the
(13:49):
sidelines.
Now, after being completelylivid and disgusted, I assessed
the child.
Thank God, no spinal injuryTurns out he was concussed and
we took good care of him and hewound up being absolutely fine.
But as a result of that entireexperience, concussion became
really important to me and Ithought you know we've got to do
(14:10):
a better job educating peoplenot only on the signs and
symptoms of concussion but whatto do when you're concussed.
And because I have, you know, aspecialty in internal medicine
and nutrition, I decided to takethat work and couple it where
now I love to run around thecountry and educate other people
on pre and post concussionnutrition and how to help not
only kids but adults and thentherefore professional athletes,
(14:32):
because a concussion is aconcussion regardless of what
age you are, and there's so manygreat things that we can do to
help speed up that recovery sothat we don't hear those
terrible stories 20, 30 yearslater of people who are really
suffering neurologically as aresult of improper care.
And it was that impetus thatreally got me interested.
Speaker 1 (14:53):
Well, I'd like to know what, just roughly what
kind of vitamins and supplementsand so forth do you use for a
concussion?
Speaker 2 (15:01):
Yeah.
So sometimes, again, it dependson tests, but just some basic
things that we look at is welook at omega fatty acids, which
are really great.
We look at Boswellia, whichhelps to reduce the inflammation
.
We use a lot of magnesiumthreonate, which crosses the
blood-brain barrier, so it helpsfrom that standpoint.
We also have to pull out anysort of food that can be
(15:23):
inflammatory.
So no chemicals, no aspartamefood colorings, no caffeine, no
alcohol, no sugar.
That's also equally important.
On top of some of thesupplementation, resveratrol is
another great one to lowerinflammation.
There's some great studies onzinc, so we use a ton of zinc
very carefully to make sure thatwe don't get the levels too
(15:43):
high.
But yet for that short termwe'll supplement that way.
Sometimes we'll use some aminoacids as well, especially if
there's damage or we start tosee some neurological changes
where there's anxiety ordepression, and the amino acids
can really cause a betterbalance of the neurotransmitters
.
So we don't see some of themood or behavior changes as a
result.
So it's, there's a.
Speaker 1 (16:05):
There's a pretty good gamut of things we can pick
from, depending again how severe, what the symptoms are that
they're expressing, and thenlaboratory tests that we find
you said no sugar, which broughtme to think of something else,
because there's so much onlowering blood sugar today in
the United States, sort of youknow, pre-diabetes part type 2
(16:25):
diabetes Is there.
Do you have a regime for type 2diabetes, for lowering blood
glucose?
Speaker 2 (16:31):
Yeah, so food-wise it is just that right.
And it's not just the sugarpeople think about, it's also
some of the carbohydrates.
So you know, if you live onbaked potatoes, that
carbohydrate is going to convertto a sugar in the body.
So I always say it's whitethings, right.
White sugar, white flours,white rice, et cetera.
Anything that is typicallywhite can also convert.
(16:52):
Then we can start to do thingslike chromium percolonate,
berberine.
Hcl is really good at loweringhemoglobin A1C levels.
Strontium may play a role.
Speaker 1 (17:03):
Tell me that again.
Oh, go ahead, I'm sorry, theone that was so good in lowering
ACE1s.
Speaker 2 (17:08):
Oh, berberine, berberine.
Berberine, which is an herbthat comes from golden seal,
berberine, hcl, and it actuallybehaves very similar to the
GLP-1s now that everybody'sclamoring towards that aren't
necessarily so safe.
So when we use a regimen ofthings like cinnamon and
chromium with the berberine, wefind that that hemoglobin A1C,
(17:29):
along with a good diet, can'tget away without.
That tends to lower that A1Clevel without the use of some of
the drugs that people seem toget stuck on out there.
So in the world of functionalmedicine, it's great because I'd
like to think I have analternative for every
pharmaceutical out there.
Speaker 1 (17:44):
Well, that's a good thing.
I mean, if you it is a goodthing because if you're a
practitioner, you run into allkinds of problems and you're
also into women's health.
Tell me about that a little bit.
Speaker 2 (17:58):
Oh, so you know, by default, right?
I mean, most of the people thatcome into my practice are women
and, let's face it, when themen come in, they're dragged in
by the women in their lives mostof the time.
So you know, taking care ofwomen mainly in a practice,
you're going to come acrossthings like fatigue,
premenstrual syndrome,perimenopause issues, menopausal
(18:19):
dysfunction, and you know, atsome point you make the decision
that you either have to takethat on or you've got to find a
practitioner that's really goodat it to refer out and I'm not a
big fan of referring unlessit's something I don't know.
I love to take things on.
So the women's health becamereally important.
I also had an amazing mentor.
I don't know if you remember DrFrank Strahl, he's been gone
(18:42):
for quite a while now but Franktaught obstetrics and gynecology
at National University, whichis where I graduated, and I was
in his very first obstetrics andgynecology at National
University, which is where Igraduated, and I was in his very
first obstetrics and gynecologyclass and I thought it was the
strangest thing that here I amgoing to chiropractic school and
I wanted to be a sportschiropractor, like about 80% of
my class, and Frank's up theretalking about, like vaginal
(19:03):
health and testicular health,and I'm like what does this have
to do with chiropractic?
It doesn't make any sense to me.
Well, you know, it may not havea direct correlation, but at
the same time it comes back towhole body health.
And what's really interestingis, even if you think about it
from a low back pain standpoint,how many patients walk into a
practice with low back painunresolved doesn't get better
(19:25):
and, as it turns out, it'sprostate cancer that's referring
to the low back.
So I started to gain anappreciation for pelvic health,
both in men and women, and therelationship it has to low back
pain, and realized this isactually really more important
than I realized when I signed upfor the program of chiropractic
and just really, from thatpoint on, with his leadership
(19:45):
and his mentorship, fell in lovewith women's health, because I
think there's so many of us outthere that think what we go
through is normal and it'sactually common and not normal.
Right, it's not okay to havecramps when you have a period
and it's not okay to have hotflashes when you're in menopause
and all of those differentsymptoms I think have become
(20:06):
normalized and accepted in oursociety and women don't know
what to do about it and I'd loveto share that.
You know there is something youcan do about it and it's
absolutely fixable and it'sreally fun to take that on and
accomplish those things for, youknow, for the women that walk
into the practice, because theygo from miserable to really
happy, and that's that's a greatpath.
Speaker 1 (20:26):
What would you say?
Do you have probably 70% womenin your practice?
Speaker 2 (20:33):
Maybe even a little higher, probably 70 to 80, you
know, and I I mean I treat kids,I treat elderly, but I do.
I see a lot of young women, youknow, 12, 13, 14, 15 years old,
that are also having troublewith their periods all the way
through.
You know everybody who's in myclub that's already menopausal
and you know wanting to findthat youth again, where you know
(20:55):
it's not painful to walkthrough the hormonal changes.
Speaker 1 (20:57):
What do you think about the upcoming geriatric
population?
Speaker 2 (21:03):
Well, you know what?
They're just as important asour young population, right?
You know, I think the shame ofit is is, a lot of time, as we
get older, we get written offand we even do that to ourselves
, right?
So there's people who will sitin my office and go oh well,
it's just because I'm older andI never let anybody use that as
an excuse in my office.
So, as we age, things do change.
(21:25):
There's no denying that, right.
There's things that break downor things that are produced less
of or more challenges, but Inever let anybody use it as an
excuse to accept the changes,right?
So we can look at those thingsand implement something to halt
them, to change them, to improvethem.
So that, really, at the end ofthe day you know, I have this
(21:45):
joke I say I want everybody tolive, to be 112 and one day lay
down and you don't wake up.
That's how we're supposed to go.
Right, exactly how we'resupposed to go and my number is
112, which is why I picked that.
If yours is something else,that's okay and we can work with
it, but I want everybody toknow that they really can feel
good, whether they're 10 yearsold or 90 years old.
Neither is an excuse to say sayit's okay that I have symptoms
(22:09):
and I feel lousy.
Speaker 1 (22:11):
What's your greatest feedback and the most fun you
have when you go lecturing?
Speaker 2 (22:19):
Oh, you know it's, so it's fun it's.
You know what it's a?
I love to stand on stage andknow that somebody paid at least
$5 to hear me speak.
You know, after having threekids and you know you talk and
you talk and you talk and youwonder if anybody's listening to
you.
It's really cool to stand upand be heard.
(22:39):
I think what's really rewardingfor me actually comes after
that, and that's when somebodywalks up to me afterward and
says you know what I haveexactly what you're talking
about, or I have a patient thathas exactly what you're talking
about.
Can you help them?
And then we do.
And it's nice to know becauseif they approach me that way, it
gives me an indication theyprobably didn't know how to get
(23:00):
help prior.
And if that one presentationgives somebody that direction to
accomplish something in a goodway, then that's the high for me
and I just love it.
I love to educate people andtake the information and, you
know, go get everybody.
Well.
Speaker 1 (23:15):
Well, that's where you get your enthusiasm from.
It's it shows that that's whereyou're having fun.
And have you ever had stagefright?
Speaker 2 (23:26):
I don't know.
I mean I still get a littlenervous sometimes, which you
know, whoever they I'm stilltrying to figure out who they
are in that sentence, but youknow sometimes they say that
even you know the highest levelspeakers still kind of get
butterflies and a little bit ofnerves when they go out.
It's almost like more of ananxiousness just to get there
(23:48):
and do it right, vers versussort of that stage fright.
I mean I probably had it thefirst time and then I think I
got over it pretty quick becauseI just love it.
Speaker 1 (23:56):
I remember the day that I got over it.
It was in Parker and I walkedacross the stage and it was like
a full house and I think I was28 years old or something and we
had it at Madison Square Gardenin New York and there were
6,000 people there.
It was Jim Parker's heyday andI walked out there and I all of
a sudden realized I wasn'tscared and it was one of the
(24:16):
best days of my life.
But I had worked at it and, asyou have worked at it, and so
when you know your material,that's what gets rid of it.
And so you know, speaking,public speaking, is the number
one fear of people, and sothat's why you've overcome it,
because you've got a goodmessage and you're not afraid to
tell it and you know you're outthere.
(24:39):
You're a pro.
Speaker 2 (24:41):
Oh well, thank you.
And I never get on stage andtalk about something I don't
know about.
You know.
So it's easy, right, when youknow your stuff.
Speaker 1 (24:51):
Well, it sounds like you've experienced most of it.
I have.
I think that's the other thing.
That's important is youexperience it.
Inactivator we're looking at thegeriatric population, probably
because I'm a geriatric butwe're looking at that and we're
coming up with some things to dowhen people have had a replaced
knee or a replaced hip or youknow something like that.
And inactivator we don't hurtthe patient, so they can be
(25:14):
treated quite easily, and sothat's one of the things that
I'm into and that's why I askedyou about geriatrics what you
thought about it, because halfthe population in the country
will be over 65 by 2030.
Will be over 65 by 2030.
And so that's why we'remajoring on it.
So you have covered a lot ofground here and I appreciate it.
(25:37):
I know you're busy, Iappreciate you coming on and I
can't thank you enough forsharing, and feel free to use
this with your people too,because we want as many people
to find you know if they've gotanother problem and like you had
, and you found a solution andyou were brave and that was a
great thing.
So thank you very much, cindy,for being on the program.
Speaker 2 (26:00):
Oh, my absolute pleasure.
Anything I can do to help youjust reach out.
Speaker 1 (26:04):
That's what I'm here for.
Thank you very much.
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