April 29, 2025 • 26 mins
The connection between your spine and brain is far more profound than conventional medicine has recognized. In this eye-opening conversation, Dr. Heidi Haavik, Director of Research at New Zealand College of Chiropractic, shares revolutionary findings from 24 years of neuroscience research that completely transform our understanding of how chiropractic care works.
Forget what you thought you knew about chiropractic. Those old theories about "relieving pressure from pinched nerves" have given way to a sophisticated brain-centered model. Dr. Haavik's research team has consistently demonstrated that spinal adjustments directly change brain function, regardless of where along the spine the adjustment occurs. "We had to really rethink the entire model," she explains, "because it doesn't seem to be the nerve roots, but we're directly changing the brain when we're adjusting subluxated segments."
The mechanism? High-velocity, low-amplitude thrusts (whether from Activator instruments or manual techniques) stretch deep spinal muscles that have become atrophied around dysfunctional segments. These muscles play a crucial role in proprioception - your brain's awareness of body position. When they're not communicating properly, your brain operates on an incomplete "story" about what's happening in your body, potentially leading to countless downstream effects.
This explains why chiropractic benefits extend far beyond pain relief. Recent clinical trials reveal improvements in fatigue, anxiety, depression, and even how the brain processes sensory information like sound and visual input. Perhaps most remarkable are multiple studies showing significant rehabilitation benefits for chronic stroke survivors - an ironic development for a profession once wrongly accused of causing strokes.
For those considering chiropractic care, Dr. Haavik recommends at least three months of consistent visits. "Some of the neuroplastic brain changes don't necessarily show up straight away," she notes. "Some change immediately, but some you only see at about 12 weeks." Looking ahead, she's excited about emerging technologies that will make neurological assessment more accessible in chiropractic offices, along with big data initiatives that will better identify which populations benefit most from care.
Want to understand how your spine influences your brain and overall health? This conversation illuminates the science behind what chiropractors have observed clinically for decades - that spinal care influences far more than just back pain.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hi, I'm Dr Arlen Frewer, the Chairman and Founder
of Activator MethodsInternational.
Welcome to our podcast Activateyour Practice.
And today I'm really honoredand happy to have the Vice
Chairman, I guess, or the Deanof Research at the New Zealand
College of Chiropractor, drHeidi Helbig and Dr Helbig
welcome.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
Thank you, alan.
It's really really delightfulto sit and talk to you.
I could talk to you all day, asyou know.
Speaker 1 (00:31):
Well, you know, we've known each other for several
years and I've watched Heidigrow and I've seen her
production and the production, Ithink, is the word, because she
now has 35 associates, she toldme, at the New Zealand College,
working in the research lab,and so they're producing things
that I'm just really excitedabout.
(00:52):
We'll talk about them.
You've done some groundbreakingresearch in what chiropractic
care does to the brain, and sowhat first led you to this?
Speaker 2 (01:04):
I suppose I've always had a bit of a curious mind and
so I graduated and I wasadjusting and seeing these
changes happening in practiceand babies and animals and like
it doesn't seem to just be aplacebo effect.
But the answers that we hadback in I graduated in 99, the
answers we had back then werevery limited to the mechanisms
(01:25):
and we still had this old theorythat we were relieving pressure
off squashed nerve roots.
But it didn't really make a lotof physiological sense and
there was no evidence to supportthat that was the right way.
So we started to look at, youknow, doing some research,
looking at answering thatquestion of what is it?
How does it actually work Ifwe're not relieving pressure off
(01:46):
a squashed nerve root?
What is it?
And what we found pretty earlyon is we were finding direct
changes in the brain and itdidn't seem to matter where we
were adjusting.
We were getting theseconsistent findings in the brain
.
We were not finding any changesin the spinal cord level or
even the brainstem level.
So we had to really rethink theentire model really early on,
(02:07):
because it doesn't seem to bethat it's the nerve roots but
we're directly changing thebrain when we're adjusting
subluxated segments.
So that got me hooked.
That was it.
I knew we'd discoveredsomething and this is in the
early 2000s that was going tomake a big difference to
chiropractors people all aroundthe world.
So from then on I was hookedbecause I needed to know more.
Speaker 1 (02:29):
Well, it's interesting when you start
seeing something happen and youdon't know what it is, then that
makes your curiosity go crazy.
Speaker 2 (02:35):
Exactly, and I think I understand that.
Speaker 1 (02:37):
Can you break down in simple terms how spinal
adjustments influence the brainfunction and overall health?
Speaker 2 (02:44):
So what we've discovered over the last 24
years now of work is that one ofthe main ways that a
chiropractic adjustment worksespecially if we're talking
about the high-velocity,low-amplitude thrust so, for
example, an activator or amanual adjustment or a drop
piece or any high-velocity,low-amplitude thrust, we know it
stretches the deep musclesaround that subluxated segment.
(03:05):
So what we know happens withthat subluxated segment too is
that over time those littlemuscles can atrophy.
They become fatty, infiltrated.
There's all this maladaptiveplastic change.
It's not pathology per se, butthese little muscles don't
communicate with the brainanymore and it turns out that
they're actually reallyimportant.
Their function is reallyimportant for the brain to
(03:25):
actually know what's going on inthe core of the body.
So this isn't just impactingthe function of these little
muscles which we activate with ahigh velocity, latitude, thrust
, that them being able to thatstretch receptor speaking to the
brain seems to be important forthe brain to realize where your
arms and legs are.
You know where all your musclesare, how they're functioning.
But not just that.
(03:48):
We've also shown in studies thatit impacts how your brain
interprets things like sound andvisual information.
You know and this goes rightback to Harvey Lillard and the
first adjustment right, theywere always laughing at.
Well, it's not possible toaffect the ears with the spine.
But it's not that we'reaffecting the ears, because the
sound is coming in through theears and going to the temporal
lobe, the primary auditorycortex.
But then when the brain startsto decide well, where is this
(04:09):
sound coming from?
You know, to sound localize,you need to know where you are
to be able to localize a sound,and then the brain needs to make
a decision Well, is thisimportant to me?
What do I need to do about it?
So what we think we're actuallyimpacting is that integration
of all of the sensory inputs tothe body, both from inside your
body and from outside your body,and more accurately interpret
(04:30):
what's going on and thereforemore appropriately respond to
whatever you're doing.
So this can impact pretty muchanything and it explains so much
that we see in practice aschiropractors.
Speaker 1 (04:40):
Well, it looks to me like some of the old philosophy
things are right, but they justdidn't know the mechanism.
Speaker 2 (04:46):
I know, isn't it funny?
Yeah, I know, I've laughed withmy professor, bernadette Murphy
, who was my PhD supervisor,many times because we never set
out to prove BJ and DD right,but they were pretty spot on.
Speaker 1 (04:59):
Well, it sounds like, though we need to know why,
yeah.
Speaker 2 (05:03):
I think it makes a big difference because, for
example, if you designed aclinical study and quite a few
clinical trials have beendesigned and then it looks like
chiropractic doesn't work, butthe thing is we don't know yet
exactly how your subluxationsare going to impact you
symptom-wise.
So you might enter my study ontinnitus and Alex might enter
our study on tinnitus and westart adjusting both of you.
(05:25):
But your digestion mightimprove and your sound and
auditory processing mightimprove, but your tinnitus might
not, and Alex might have lessheadaches and feel more energy
and have less depression, buthis tinnitus doesn't respond.
So the study that's onlylooking at tinnitus outcomes is
going to be a negative outcome.
It's going to say chiropracticdoesn't work because we haven't
(05:46):
measured the right outcomes foryou.
If that makes sense, yes.
So I think our future lies inbig data, which is something
that we're working on now,especially um, I don't know if
you've heard of the organizationchiropractic future no, it's a
it's a voluntary organization.
I don't know how I'm part ofthat or how I've managed to get
in the position I'm in, but I'vebeen working with them for
(06:06):
three years now and we'reliterally looking at lots of
different things.
It's about the future of theprofession.
So how can we collectively cometogether?
Ignore our disagreements, butcome together about what we do
agree on?
And one of the big projectswe're working on is this big
data gathering the electronic,your electronic health records.
Because if we start to getthousands of chiropractors' data
(06:29):
, that means millions ofpatients we should then be able
to see that, say, maybe 40% ofpeople that come and see
chiropractors, they benefit withtheir sleep.
There might be another 60 mightbenefit with their auditory,
visual processing.
You might have a 90%improvement in back pain, neck
pain, headache type things.
But there's all these otherbenefits that we're not finding.
(06:51):
If you're specifically goingout there with a clinical trial
because we haven't understoodthe mechanisms, and
understanding how it works makesit easier then to design the
right studies that will pick upon the actual benefits that are
happening and that chiropractorssee in their practices.
Speaker 1 (07:08):
Now you also say that it can impact neuroplasticity.
I think you better tell us whatneuroplasticity is.
Speaker 2 (07:14):
Yeah, I used to talk about our research as being the
contemporary model ofchiropractic and it was a
neuroplasticity model.
But most chiropractors can'teven pronounce neuroplasticity,
so if you're one of those, don'tworry about it.
We now just call it the brainmodel.
Makes it easier.
But what's really excitingabout the brain is even into
adulthood and we didn't knowthis up till the 80s we didn't
(07:34):
really know that the brain couldcontinue to develop and change,
and it does it can develop andchange, especially if it's
something that you're paying alot of attention to and if you
get good rest, because you needto consolidate those memories
and you need alertness.
So you need alertness andpaying attention, and I think
that's what's so remarkableabout the adjustment is that it
(07:56):
wakes you up.
I think it's that it's anatural signal, but it's an
unusual signal, if that makessense.
You know that adjustment and soit seems to wake up the brain's
alertness systems.
We call it the salience networkand we can get into that if you
like.
But it sort of wakes up and itseems to then recalibrate,
(08:17):
because one of the other thingsthat we found in the last 20
years in neuroscience is thatthe brain likes to operate on
its own story, its own memory,because if it pays attention to
what's actually going on, allthe millions of data inputs that
are coming in all the time, itwould take too much energy.
So the brain creates a storyabout what's going on inside us
and it lives off that.
(08:38):
But this is where it can gowrong, because if the story is
you know, because if it doesn'tknow what's happening in the
spine because those littlemuscles aren't talking to the
brain around the subluxatedsegments, then you don't know
where the core of your body is,then all of a sudden you might
not be sending the rightmessages to your arm muscles or
your leg muscles and over time,you know, this can mean that you
get a bit of pulling in thewrong parts, then you get
(08:58):
microtraumas and then you canget inflammation and then you
can get pain.
So you might, for example, endup with chronic elbow pain or
chronic knee pain, and it'sactually a spinal subluxation
problem and that isn't beingcommunicated to the brain.
So when the brain is sendingmessages to the elbow or the
knee muscles, it's getting itwrong because obviously arms and
legs attach to the spine.
Speaker 1 (09:19):
Well, many people think of chiropractic care as
only in terms of pain relief.
Speaker 2 (09:23):
I know they do, don't they?
And it's a really sad thing,especially again with the latest
findings, when we're seeingthings like improved accuracy
and speed of interpreting soundand visual information.
I mean, that's not, you know, apain, it's not an aspect of pain
seen in the more recent studies.
(09:49):
I think because we are betterunderstanding what we're doing
and the impact it's having onthe brain and then knowing the
brain better.
We've designed differentstudies, asking different
questions and one of the morerecent randomized controlled
trials we did in the UK lookingat four weeks of chiropractic
care.
We were recording theseconversations in the brain, so
these different networks.
But we were also findingoutcomes like improvements in
(10:09):
fatigue levels, improvements inanxiety and improvements in
depression, alongsideimprovements in pain.
So there is more tochiropractic care than back pain
, neck pain and headaches.
But I think we fell into thattrap because the clinical trials
on the back pain, neck pain andheadaches were bound to show up
positive, because that's wherewe're directing our input, but
(10:31):
we're not picking up on all ofthese extraneous changes until
we start looking at the big datais my suspicion anyway.
Speaker 1 (10:39):
There are many specific conditions where
chiropractic care shows promise,but it isn't widely recognized.
That's probably because there'sno data.
Speaker 2 (10:46):
Well, we've got very limited data and you know, alan,
you know that I mean I don'tknow many people like you out
there that actually you know,put funding into research
because it's so important wedon't have there's no
pharmaceutical company thatreally wants to fund
chiropractic research.
So if we're going to do it,we're the ones that have to do
it and it's very expensive.
(11:07):
So I think we lack researchsupport.
Again, for those of you outthere, if you want to help
support, check out thatchiropracticfutureorg.
I'm a real believer that if wework together, collectively, we
can make more happen.
Right, we're stronger together.
Speaker 1 (11:24):
Yes, I think that's chiropracticfutureorg,
chiropracticfutureorg.
Speaker 2 (11:29):
Thank you for that.
Speaker 1 (11:30):
What new research, innovation and chiropractic
neurosciences are you mostexcited about right now?
Speaker 2 (11:36):
Well, right now I have about 47 projects on the go
at the moment, but one I'mreally excited about is a new
baby study that we're doing.
So we've got this amazingscientist coming up.
She's doing her PhD now atAuckland University I'm blessed
enough to be her co-supervisorand she's doing, I think, the
world's first newborn babychiropractic study where we're
(11:59):
measuring both brain outcomes.
So we're going to be measuringwhole head EEG.
We're also doing thisfunctional near infrared
spectrometry, which is bloodoxygenation across the forehead
of the baby's brain.
We're also going to bemonitoring their health outcomes
.
The babies that we're selectingfor the study are these ones
with some sort of asymmetry.
You know the typical baby thatcomes to see a chiropractor
(12:21):
because they can't breastfeed onone side or they can't turn
their head one way, or they havethat banana shape in their
whole body or they've got theodd shape and skulls and things
like that.
So they're the babies thatwe're bringing on board and
we're going to be looking attheir biomechanics, their
posture, if, if there are anychanges to that, and we're
looking at their breastfeedingso and their baby's quality of
(12:43):
life, according to to mums, aswell as the brain changes.
Speaker 1 (12:47):
We were talking before we started the interview
and I mentioned to you that wehad, by accident, developed a
new pediatric tip.
I know and I'm so excited aboutit.
It was so funny because therewas a lady in Italy that did the
research on this and she saidwhen a baby is zero to 90 days
old, they should never have morethan 20 newtons of force put
(13:08):
into the Atlas.
And we had just been workingwith Ted Carrick putting so many
newtons of force into a rat andit happened to be 20 newtons.
And so we developed a 3D printerto do the printing of the tip.
That would do just 20 newtons.
So we're going to be sendingyou an activator with a
(13:28):
pediatric tip.
So this person that's doing herstudy, she can feel free and
comfortable to use that withoutharming a baby at all.
So the results will be veryinteresting.
Speaker 2 (13:38):
Oh, I really can't wait, because I think that's a
big deal.
Like again, because if you'renot using an activator like that
, which I didn't even knowexisted until I talked to you
today, you're not putting in thesame sort of high-velocity
force, correct?
Speaker 1 (13:52):
And you know, reproducible.
Speaker 2 (13:54):
I know.
Speaker 1 (13:54):
That's the big.
Thing.
Speaker 2 (13:55):
That's why we like to use it in our nature study,
because of that reproducibility.
Speaker 1 (14:00):
Well, and you know, now that we have an electronic
instrument that's got an autoprocessor.
So the guys at Baylor MedicalSchool were just blown away that
they could get it that accurate, because with the old
mechanical ones we couldn't dothat.
So now we can.
Speaker 2 (14:14):
Now you're doing great things, Alan.
Speaker 1 (14:17):
If you could see one major shift in how the medical
and scientific community is viewchiropractic care, what would
it be?
Speaker 2 (14:23):
I'm hoping they'll just pay attention because
there's a lot more researchcoming out and it's coming out
quite fast, faster than we'veever been able to in the past.
There's new PhDs popping up left, right and centre.
I can't even keep track and Ithought I was doing quite well
keeping track on what's outthere in the research community
in chiropractic.
So I'm hoping that they willsee at least the brain changes
(14:45):
because if you can see theneuroplastic effect that we have
and it's a very positiveneuroplastic effect and there's
more and more of this sciencecoming out it's been coming out
for 25 years now, but nowthere's more and more clinical
trials coming out with theclinical outcomes alongside
these neuroplastic brain changes.
If they can see that, it wouldopen up, like we've done studies
(15:06):
, for example, I think we'vedone about five studies now and
at least three of them wereclinical trials in chronic
stroke survivors.
Like there are a lot of peopleout there that really need
access to chiropractic care andyou'll remember the days that we
were blamed for causing thestrokes.
Not only do we not cause thesestrokes, but we could have a
tremendous impact in improvingtheir rehabilitation outcomes.
But we could have a tremendousimpact in improving their
(15:28):
rehabilitation outcomes.
Speaker 1 (15:28):
I took care of, you know, for years in practice.
I practiced 25 years, you know,in a small farming town in
Minnesota and we had people comein and they were post-stroke
people and we would have themdoing things that their medical
doctors never thought they wouldever do again.
And so they were lined up.
You know it was like we'd havestroke afternoon, you know
everybody could, but they'd allsit around and tell each other
(15:50):
about how they were and whenthey started and what happened,
and so we knew that there werethe results that could be, could
be having.
Speaker 2 (15:57):
I had some of my research team members in tears
watching these human, becausesome of them are bioengineers.
You know they're notnecessarily used to working with
human beings like wechiropractors are, and they were
in tears looking at the lifethat we were giving back to
these people.
That sort of stuff isn'tcaptured in a research article,
so I love listening to them tellme these stories.
Speaker 1 (16:18):
Right, and you know I have a real goal in mind here,
you know, because the geriatricpopulation is going to be, you
know, half the United States isgoing to be over 65 in 2030.
You can't put everybody in anursing home because we don't
have that many, and so we've gotto keep them mobile.
Speaker 2 (16:35):
And one of the best things I would imagine is going
to be chiropractic care.
Speaker 1 (16:38):
Yes, and I think that's where we really have a
role to play of keeping thosepeople so they can get around
and do things on their own.
Speaker 2 (16:46):
Because most of these neurodegenerative disorders, if
we can have a positiveneuroplastic effect on the brain
, well, that's Huntington's,that's Parkinson's, and I'm not
necessarily saying or suggestingthat we might be curing any of
these people, but we can improvetheir quality of life and their
functional ability.
That I think we can make adifference.
Speaker 1 (17:04):
How can people determine if chiropractic care
is right for them, and then whatshould they look for for a good
practitioner?
Speaker 2 (17:12):
I'll answer the second part first.
I think the best thing withchiropractic is to give it a go,
because it's so impossible toknow exactly what kind of
symptoms, like we talked aboutbefore, that your particular
spinal dysfunction is causingfor you.
So you might come in and see achiropractor for reasons X, y
and Z, but you might have A Band C change.
I also think that it would beworthwhile giving it a go for at
(17:37):
least three months and have atleast two or three visits a week
, because we now know we'reworking on these little muscles
close to the spine.
We know, for example, thatwe're really exercising those
little muscles back into properfunction.
If they've atrophied in certainareas and there's full of fatty
infiltration, we need toexercise those muscles back into
function to be able tocommunicate with the brain.
(17:57):
And we've seen this in some ofour research studies that some
of the neuroplastic brainchanges don't necessarily show
up straight away, but they dostart showing up.
Some of them change, somechange immediately, but some
only.
You only see them at about 12weeks.
So that's why I'd say give it,give it at least 12 weeks and
and several visits so that youcan and when I mean exercise.
(18:17):
I really mean checking andadjusting these subluxated
segments, these dysfunctionalsegments where we know these
little muscles have atrophied.
And I'd also try and seesomeone that gels with you.
I think that's really important,that that connection between
the two of you, between you andyour chiropractor very important
, so much so I'm even designinga study at the moment, alan,
(18:39):
where I finally ended up nowwith two whole head EEG systems
so I can actually record fromthe patient at the same time as
I can record from the doctor.
And we know that there arestudies like, for example, with
meditation or where you've got amama and a newborn baby.
If mama plays with the baby,the baby's brain synchronizes
with mom, and I have a feelingthat this is what differentiates
(19:01):
really good chiropractors fromthose that are maybe just
mechanical, that don't reallycare.
But if you get a really goodchiropractor, they give a shit.
And if you're connecting upthen the patient with the
chiropractor, I literally wantto see if the patient's brain
synchronizes with the doctor's,because that wouldn't surprise
me either.
Speaker 1 (19:16):
That would be an interesting study, wouldn't it?
You know we have, or I do havea theory that if we get people
doing the same thing, so we havesome standardization.
Yep, so we now have 1,200proficiency-rated activator
practitioners.
Do they do other things?
Of course you know that'snormal, but they do have a basic
(19:39):
activator background.
Last month, and we have thedata to show this, we sent
17,000 new people to thoseactivator practitioners.
Speaker 2 (19:50):
Just because they 17,000.
Speaker 1 (19:51):
17,000 last month, and so we now know that they're
looking, because 96% of peopledon't go into a chiropractor's
office because they don't wantto get their neck cracked.
That's just a known thing.
That's why multidisciplinarypractice is ever so popular and
then once they put activator inthe multidisciplinary, then
they're home free because theydon't get hurt, and so so you're
(20:16):
starting with big data now.
Well, yes, didn't even know it.
We need to do somecollaborations on this Exactly,
I need that data.
Speaker 2 (20:22):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (20:24):
Are there lifestyle changes or habits that can
complement chiropractic care toimprove brain function?
Speaker 2 (20:29):
Yeah, big time, big time.
There's a lot you can do.
We know sleep it's like adishwasher for the brain.
So if you want to clear outtoxins, if you get into deep
sleep.
So if you want to clear outtoxins, if you get into deep
sleep, there's a real classicstudy that's basically shown
that you've got this glymphaticsystem now that can clean out
the brains all the toxins and ofcourse, the toxin buildup is
quite well known to beinfluencing the
(20:50):
neuroinflammation which is veryknown to be part of most of
these chronic neurodegenerativedisorders that we're getting
more and more of these days.
There's a lot of supplementsthat can help as well with
nutrition that again can reduceinflammation.
Very, very important.
Some really excellent productsthat can help again specifically
sharpen the mind.
(21:11):
Exercise again.
If you could bottle actualphysical exercise it would be
the wonder drug of the centuryagain for the brain.
But not too much, but not toolittle either.
Speaker 1 (21:21):
Well see, I have a perfect solution for that.
I have two miniature schnauzers.
Speaker 2 (21:24):
Yes, exactly.
Speaker 1 (21:25):
And they have to be walked every day, exactly, and
so they're not too big and theydon't want to go miles, and so
it works just right to go arounda few blocks and everything.
Exactly what we have to.
I get my exercise.
Speaker 2 (21:37):
We have two little dogs.
Speaker 1 (21:38):
Yes, and that's why somebody said well, why do you
keep those dogs?
And I said well, number one,they're our children.
Number two they keep meexercising.
Speaker 2 (21:47):
It's the unconditional love and getting
me outside exercising every day.
Exactly, I 100% agree, exactly.
Speaker 1 (21:52):
And so, what do you think the research has taught
you about your own life?
Speaker 2 (21:56):
research has taught you about your own life.
Well, being a scientist hashelped me a lot, I think,
because I'm not very good atlistening to what anyone else
tells me to do.
I always have to double checkit in the literature.
But I met this really cleverfunctional medicine doctor and
he got me monitoring my ownhealth with data, and that's the
(22:20):
first person I actuallylistened to when he was telling
me I was overdoing it.
Speaker 1 (22:31):
Well, you know, my wife will tell you that I'm a
hypochondriac, you know.
So I wear my watch to tell myblood oxygen level and so forth,
and so everything I can measure.
You know I have a patch so Ican check my blood sugar and you
know everything.
But you know, I think it's goodbecause, you know, one of our
doctors wrote a book on how toget healthy and the number two
thing was quit eating out.
And I thought he was crazyuntil I put on a blood sugar
(22:52):
monitor because when you eat outyou don't know what you're
getting and I thought I waseating salads.
Well, it was the dressing inthis salad and it would spike my
blood sugar and I was like holycow.
We don't even know what we'redoing to ourselves well, it
gives you that responsibilityback on.
Speaker 2 (23:06):
You, doesn't?
Speaker 1 (23:07):
it.
Yes, well now, if you takeresponsibility yourself for your
own health, yes, yeah yeah, andI needed data for that.
Speaker 2 (23:13):
So I wasn't good at just listening to someone to
tell me what I should do, whatthe numbers.
I have to look and see what thenumbers are Well.
Speaker 1 (23:19):
What do you see?
The future now?
You know, I told you when wewere talking about I have a
dream of a robotic arm goingdown the spine, you know,
telling where the subluxationsare, and then a robotic
instrument comes out and adjuststhe spine.
I think that's doable.
I think well like you said,you've got enough people
surrounding you that you canactually look at something like
(23:40):
this and say it's possible.
Speaker 2 (23:42):
We're looking at wearable technology, and that's
where I see the future.
What kind Wearable technology,so all kinds of wearable
technology.
It's like you're saying withyour little watches, but there's
a lot of new technology, LikeI've got some amazing
bioengineers that work in my labin New Zealand and there's all
sorts of new technology whereand it's really inexpensive
stuff and it's again for theactual consumer, so this
(24:04):
shouldn't cost the chiropractoranything.
But if we can get this datafrom a lot of this wearable
technology, along with theelectronic health records, so
that you're following what thechiropractor's doing, how
they're doing it, whattechniques they're using with
the patients giving thepatient-reported outcomes, and
then we're getting this wearabletechnology.
We're even working on thingslike a real simple cap that you
(24:25):
can pop on the head withliterally saline sponges, so you
literally wet sponges and stickthem in and you could do a
five-minute recording in youroffice again inexpensively,
works, with your iPhone, andfrom that five-minute recording
of EEG, which again, your staffmembers should be able to do for
you on for your patients on aregular basis, it can tell you
so much, it's not even funny.
(24:47):
So this is where I think thefuture lies in this big data and
using a lot of the wearabletechnology, really sort of you
know, low cost, inexpensivestuff, like it can fit on your
glasses and on your bra strapand things like that.
That's where I think we'll beable to in the future, using AI
and these smart computerspicking patterns.
I know there's some dangerswith AI as well, but it can be
(25:10):
utilised, Technology can beutilised and it can give us a
lot of information.
So your booth, your adjustmentbooth, it's not too far-fetched.
I just want this little thingcoming down going.
So your booth, your adjustmentbooth, it's not too far-fetched.
I just want this little thingcoming down going, monitoring
your EEG for five minutes, youknow, and you filling out a few
forms, and then it can do itsthing.
Speaker 1 (25:29):
Well, I can't tell you how much I enjoyed this
interview, because we werethinking like-minded here and I
think that well, things havecome today that can work like
this.
You know, we're in a day andage where we've got that kind of
equipment to do the job Thingsare changing.
Yes, and so thank you so much.
I can't thank you enough forbeing on the podcast and I hope
even the people out there thataren't doctors, even the
(25:50):
patients out there, gotsomething out of this.
Speaker 2 (25:52):
Me too.
I hope so too.
I hope you've enjoyed it, andI've certainly enjoyed it, thank
you so much for doing it.
Yeah, thank you.
Hi, I'm Dr Arlen Frewer, the Chairman and Founder
of Activator MethodsInternational.
Welcome to our podcast Activateyour Practice.
And today I'm really honoredand happy to have the Vice
Chairman, I guess, or the Deanof Research at the New Zealand
College of Chiropractor, drHeidi Helbig and Dr Helbig
welcome.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
Thank you, alan.
It's really really delightfulto sit and talk to you.
I could talk to you all day, asyou know.
Speaker 1 (00:31):
Well, you know, we've known each other for several
years and I've watched Heidigrow and I've seen her
production and the production, Ithink, is the word, because she
now has 35 associates, she toldme, at the New Zealand College,
working in the research lab,and so they're producing things
that I'm just really excitedabout.
(00:52):
We'll talk about them.
You've done some groundbreakingresearch in what chiropractic
care does to the brain, and sowhat first led you to this?
Speaker 2 (01:04):
I suppose I've always had a bit of a curious mind and
so I graduated and I wasadjusting and seeing these
changes happening in practiceand babies and animals and like
it doesn't seem to just be aplacebo effect.
But the answers that we hadback in I graduated in 99, the
answers we had back then werevery limited to the mechanisms
(01:25):
and we still had this old theorythat we were relieving pressure
off squashed nerve roots.
But it didn't really make a lotof physiological sense and
there was no evidence to supportthat that was the right way.
So we started to look at, youknow, doing some research,
looking at answering thatquestion of what is it?
How does it actually work Ifwe're not relieving pressure off
(01:46):
a squashed nerve root?
What is it?
And what we found pretty earlyon is we were finding direct
changes in the brain and itdidn't seem to matter where we
were adjusting.
We were getting theseconsistent findings in the brain
.
We were not finding any changesin the spinal cord level or
even the brainstem level.
So we had to really rethink theentire model really early on,
(02:07):
because it doesn't seem to bethat it's the nerve roots but
we're directly changing thebrain when we're adjusting
subluxated segments.
So that got me hooked.
That was it.
I knew we'd discoveredsomething and this is in the
early 2000s that was going tomake a big difference to
chiropractors people all aroundthe world.
So from then on I was hookedbecause I needed to know more.
Speaker 1 (02:29):
Well, it's interesting when you start
seeing something happen and youdon't know what it is, then that
makes your curiosity go crazy.
Speaker 2 (02:35):
Exactly, and I think I understand that.
Speaker 1 (02:37):
Can you break down in simple terms how spinal
adjustments influence the brainfunction and overall health?
Speaker 2 (02:44):
So what we've discovered over the last 24
years now of work is that one ofthe main ways that a
chiropractic adjustment worksespecially if we're talking
about the high-velocity,low-amplitude thrust so, for
example, an activator or amanual adjustment or a drop
piece or any high-velocity,low-amplitude thrust, we know it
stretches the deep musclesaround that subluxated segment.
(03:05):
So what we know happens withthat subluxated segment too is
that over time those littlemuscles can atrophy.
They become fatty, infiltrated.
There's all this maladaptiveplastic change.
It's not pathology per se, butthese little muscles don't
communicate with the brainanymore and it turns out that
they're actually reallyimportant.
Their function is reallyimportant for the brain to
(03:25):
actually know what's going on inthe core of the body.
So this isn't just impactingthe function of these little
muscles which we activate with ahigh velocity, latitude, thrust
, that them being able to thatstretch receptor speaking to the
brain seems to be important forthe brain to realize where your
arms and legs are.
You know where all your musclesare, how they're functioning.
But not just that.
(03:48):
We've also shown in studies thatit impacts how your brain
interprets things like sound andvisual information.
You know and this goes rightback to Harvey Lillard and the
first adjustment right, theywere always laughing at.
Well, it's not possible toaffect the ears with the spine.
But it's not that we'reaffecting the ears, because the
sound is coming in through theears and going to the temporal
lobe, the primary auditorycortex.
But then when the brain startsto decide well, where is this
(04:09):
sound coming from?
You know, to sound localize,you need to know where you are
to be able to localize a sound,and then the brain needs to make
a decision Well, is thisimportant to me?
What do I need to do about it?
So what we think we're actuallyimpacting is that integration
of all of the sensory inputs tothe body, both from inside your
body and from outside your body,and more accurately interpret
(04:30):
what's going on and thereforemore appropriately respond to
whatever you're doing.
So this can impact pretty muchanything and it explains so much
that we see in practice aschiropractors.
Speaker 1 (04:40):
Well, it looks to me like some of the old philosophy
things are right, but they justdidn't know the mechanism.
Speaker 2 (04:46):
I know, isn't it funny?
Yeah, I know, I've laughed withmy professor, bernadette Murphy
, who was my PhD supervisor,many times because we never set
out to prove BJ and DD right,but they were pretty spot on.
Speaker 1 (04:59):
Well, it sounds like, though we need to know why,
yeah.
Speaker 2 (05:03):
I think it makes a big difference because, for
example, if you designed aclinical study and quite a few
clinical trials have beendesigned and then it looks like
chiropractic doesn't work, butthe thing is we don't know yet
exactly how your subluxationsare going to impact you
symptom-wise.
So you might enter my study ontinnitus and Alex might enter
our study on tinnitus and westart adjusting both of you.
(05:25):
But your digestion mightimprove and your sound and
auditory processing mightimprove, but your tinnitus might
not, and Alex might have lessheadaches and feel more energy
and have less depression, buthis tinnitus doesn't respond.
So the study that's onlylooking at tinnitus outcomes is
going to be a negative outcome.
It's going to say chiropracticdoesn't work because we haven't
(05:46):
measured the right outcomes foryou.
If that makes sense, yes.
So I think our future lies inbig data, which is something
that we're working on now,especially um, I don't know if
you've heard of the organizationchiropractic future no, it's a
it's a voluntary organization.
I don't know how I'm part ofthat or how I've managed to get
in the position I'm in, but I'vebeen working with them for
(06:06):
three years now and we'reliterally looking at lots of
different things.
It's about the future of theprofession.
So how can we collectively cometogether?
Ignore our disagreements, butcome together about what we do
agree on?
And one of the big projectswe're working on is this big
data gathering the electronic,your electronic health records.
Because if we start to getthousands of chiropractors' data
(06:29):
, that means millions ofpatients we should then be able
to see that, say, maybe 40% ofpeople that come and see
chiropractors, they benefit withtheir sleep.
There might be another 60 mightbenefit with their auditory,
visual processing.
You might have a 90%improvement in back pain, neck
pain, headache type things.
But there's all these otherbenefits that we're not finding.
(06:51):
If you're specifically goingout there with a clinical trial
because we haven't understoodthe mechanisms, and
understanding how it works makesit easier then to design the
right studies that will pick upon the actual benefits that are
happening and that chiropractorssee in their practices.
Speaker 1 (07:08):
Now you also say that it can impact neuroplasticity.
I think you better tell us whatneuroplasticity is.
Speaker 2 (07:14):
Yeah, I used to talk about our research as being the
contemporary model ofchiropractic and it was a
neuroplasticity model.
But most chiropractors can'teven pronounce neuroplasticity,
so if you're one of those, don'tworry about it.
We now just call it the brainmodel.
Makes it easier.
But what's really excitingabout the brain is even into
adulthood and we didn't knowthis up till the 80s we didn't
(07:34):
really know that the brain couldcontinue to develop and change,
and it does it can develop andchange, especially if it's
something that you're paying alot of attention to and if you
get good rest, because you needto consolidate those memories
and you need alertness.
So you need alertness andpaying attention, and I think
that's what's so remarkableabout the adjustment is that it
(07:56):
wakes you up.
I think it's that it's anatural signal, but it's an
unusual signal, if that makessense.
You know that adjustment and soit seems to wake up the brain's
alertness systems.
We call it the salience networkand we can get into that if you
like.
But it sort of wakes up and itseems to then recalibrate,
(08:17):
because one of the other thingsthat we found in the last 20
years in neuroscience is thatthe brain likes to operate on
its own story, its own memory,because if it pays attention to
what's actually going on, allthe millions of data inputs that
are coming in all the time, itwould take too much energy.
So the brain creates a storyabout what's going on inside us
and it lives off that.
(08:38):
But this is where it can gowrong, because if the story is
you know, because if it doesn'tknow what's happening in the
spine because those littlemuscles aren't talking to the
brain around the subluxatedsegments, then you don't know
where the core of your body is,then all of a sudden you might
not be sending the rightmessages to your arm muscles or
your leg muscles and over time,you know, this can mean that you
get a bit of pulling in thewrong parts, then you get
(08:58):
microtraumas and then you canget inflammation and then you
can get pain.
So you might, for example, endup with chronic elbow pain or
chronic knee pain, and it'sactually a spinal subluxation
problem and that isn't beingcommunicated to the brain.
So when the brain is sendingmessages to the elbow or the
knee muscles, it's getting itwrong because obviously arms and
legs attach to the spine.
Speaker 1 (09:19):
Well, many people think of chiropractic care as
only in terms of pain relief.
Speaker 2 (09:23):
I know they do, don't they?
And it's a really sad thing,especially again with the latest
findings, when we're seeingthings like improved accuracy
and speed of interpreting soundand visual information.
I mean, that's not, you know, apain, it's not an aspect of pain
seen in the more recent studies.
(09:49):
I think because we are betterunderstanding what we're doing
and the impact it's having onthe brain and then knowing the
brain better.
We've designed differentstudies, asking different
questions and one of the morerecent randomized controlled
trials we did in the UK lookingat four weeks of chiropractic
care.
We were recording theseconversations in the brain, so
these different networks.
But we were also findingoutcomes like improvements in
(10:09):
fatigue levels, improvements inanxiety and improvements in
depression, alongsideimprovements in pain.
So there is more tochiropractic care than back pain
, neck pain and headaches.
But I think we fell into thattrap because the clinical trials
on the back pain, neck pain andheadaches were bound to show up
positive, because that's wherewe're directing our input, but
(10:31):
we're not picking up on all ofthese extraneous changes until
we start looking at the big datais my suspicion anyway.
Speaker 1 (10:39):
There are many specific conditions where
chiropractic care shows promise,but it isn't widely recognized.
That's probably because there'sno data.
Speaker 2 (10:46):
Well, we've got very limited data and you know, alan,
you know that I mean I don'tknow many people like you out
there that actually you know,put funding into research
because it's so important wedon't have there's no
pharmaceutical company thatreally wants to fund
chiropractic research.
So if we're going to do it,we're the ones that have to do
it and it's very expensive.
(11:07):
So I think we lack researchsupport.
Again, for those of you outthere, if you want to help
support, check out thatchiropracticfutureorg.
I'm a real believer that if wework together, collectively, we
can make more happen.
Right, we're stronger together.
Speaker 1 (11:24):
Yes, I think that's chiropracticfutureorg,
chiropracticfutureorg.
Speaker 2 (11:29):
Thank you for that.
Speaker 1 (11:30):
What new research, innovation and chiropractic
neurosciences are you mostexcited about right now?
Speaker 2 (11:36):
Well, right now I have about 47 projects on the go
at the moment, but one I'mreally excited about is a new
baby study that we're doing.
So we've got this amazingscientist coming up.
She's doing her PhD now atAuckland University I'm blessed
enough to be her co-supervisorand she's doing, I think, the
world's first newborn babychiropractic study where we're
(11:59):
measuring both brain outcomes.
So we're going to be measuringwhole head EEG.
We're also doing thisfunctional near infrared
spectrometry, which is bloodoxygenation across the forehead
of the baby's brain.
We're also going to bemonitoring their health outcomes
.
The babies that we're selectingfor the study are these ones
with some sort of asymmetry.
You know the typical baby thatcomes to see a chiropractor
(12:21):
because they can't breastfeed onone side or they can't turn
their head one way, or they havethat banana shape in their
whole body or they've got theodd shape and skulls and things
like that.
So they're the babies thatwe're bringing on board and
we're going to be looking attheir biomechanics, their
posture, if, if there are anychanges to that, and we're
looking at their breastfeedingso and their baby's quality of
(12:43):
life, according to to mums, aswell as the brain changes.
Speaker 1 (12:47):
We were talking before we started the interview
and I mentioned to you that wehad, by accident, developed a
new pediatric tip.
I know and I'm so excited aboutit.
It was so funny because therewas a lady in Italy that did the
research on this and she saidwhen a baby is zero to 90 days
old, they should never have morethan 20 newtons of force put
(13:08):
into the Atlas.
And we had just been workingwith Ted Carrick putting so many
newtons of force into a rat andit happened to be 20 newtons.
And so we developed a 3D printerto do the printing of the tip.
That would do just 20 newtons.
So we're going to be sendingyou an activator with a
(13:28):
pediatric tip.
So this person that's doing herstudy, she can feel free and
comfortable to use that withoutharming a baby at all.
So the results will be veryinteresting.
Speaker 2 (13:38):
Oh, I really can't wait, because I think that's a
big deal.
Like again, because if you'renot using an activator like that
, which I didn't even knowexisted until I talked to you
today, you're not putting in thesame sort of high-velocity
force, correct?
Speaker 1 (13:52):
And you know, reproducible.
Speaker 2 (13:54):
I know.
Speaker 1 (13:54):
That's the big.
Thing.
Speaker 2 (13:55):
That's why we like to use it in our nature study,
because of that reproducibility.
Speaker 1 (14:00):
Well, and you know, now that we have an electronic
instrument that's got an autoprocessor.
So the guys at Baylor MedicalSchool were just blown away that
they could get it that accurate, because with the old
mechanical ones we couldn't dothat.
So now we can.
Speaker 2 (14:14):
Now you're doing great things, Alan.
Speaker 1 (14:17):
If you could see one major shift in how the medical
and scientific community is viewchiropractic care, what would
it be?
Speaker 2 (14:23):
I'm hoping they'll just pay attention because
there's a lot more researchcoming out and it's coming out
quite fast, faster than we'veever been able to in the past.
There's new PhDs popping up left, right and centre.
I can't even keep track and Ithought I was doing quite well
keeping track on what's outthere in the research community
in chiropractic.
So I'm hoping that they willsee at least the brain changes
(14:45):
because if you can see theneuroplastic effect that we have
and it's a very positiveneuroplastic effect and there's
more and more of this sciencecoming out it's been coming out
for 25 years now, but nowthere's more and more clinical
trials coming out with theclinical outcomes alongside
these neuroplastic brain changes.
If they can see that, it wouldopen up, like we've done studies
(15:06):
, for example, I think we'vedone about five studies now and
at least three of them wereclinical trials in chronic
stroke survivors.
Like there are a lot of peopleout there that really need
access to chiropractic care andyou'll remember the days that we
were blamed for causing thestrokes.
Not only do we not cause thesestrokes, but we could have a
tremendous impact in improvingtheir rehabilitation outcomes.
But we could have a tremendousimpact in improving their
(15:28):
rehabilitation outcomes.
Speaker 1 (15:28):
I took care of, you know, for years in practice.
I practiced 25 years, you know,in a small farming town in
Minnesota and we had people comein and they were post-stroke
people and we would have themdoing things that their medical
doctors never thought they wouldever do again.
And so they were lined up.
You know it was like we'd havestroke afternoon, you know
everybody could, but they'd allsit around and tell each other
(15:50):
about how they were and whenthey started and what happened,
and so we knew that there werethe results that could be, could
be having.
Speaker 2 (15:57):
I had some of my research team members in tears
watching these human, becausesome of them are bioengineers.
You know they're notnecessarily used to working with
human beings like wechiropractors are, and they were
in tears looking at the lifethat we were giving back to
these people.
That sort of stuff isn'tcaptured in a research article,
so I love listening to them tellme these stories.
Speaker 1 (16:18):
Right, and you know I have a real goal in mind here,
you know, because the geriatricpopulation is going to be, you
know, half the United States isgoing to be over 65 in 2030.
You can't put everybody in anursing home because we don't
have that many, and so we've gotto keep them mobile.
Speaker 2 (16:35):
And one of the best things I would imagine is going
to be chiropractic care.
Speaker 1 (16:38):
Yes, and I think that's where we really have a
role to play of keeping thosepeople so they can get around
and do things on their own.
Speaker 2 (16:46):
Because most of these neurodegenerative disorders, if
we can have a positiveneuroplastic effect on the brain
, well, that's Huntington's,that's Parkinson's, and I'm not
necessarily saying or suggestingthat we might be curing any of
these people, but we can improvetheir quality of life and their
functional ability.
That I think we can make adifference.
Speaker 1 (17:04):
How can people determine if chiropractic care
is right for them, and then whatshould they look for for a good
practitioner?
Speaker 2 (17:12):
I'll answer the second part first.
I think the best thing withchiropractic is to give it a go,
because it's so impossible toknow exactly what kind of
symptoms, like we talked aboutbefore, that your particular
spinal dysfunction is causingfor you.
So you might come in and see achiropractor for reasons X, y
and Z, but you might have A Band C change.
I also think that it would beworthwhile giving it a go for at
(17:37):
least three months and have atleast two or three visits a week
, because we now know we'reworking on these little muscles
close to the spine.
We know, for example, thatwe're really exercising those
little muscles back into properfunction.
If they've atrophied in certainareas and there's full of fatty
infiltration, we need toexercise those muscles back into
function to be able tocommunicate with the brain.
(17:57):
And we've seen this in some ofour research studies that some
of the neuroplastic brainchanges don't necessarily show
up straight away, but they dostart showing up.
Some of them change, somechange immediately, but some
only.
You only see them at about 12weeks.
So that's why I'd say give it,give it at least 12 weeks and
and several visits so that youcan and when I mean exercise.
(18:17):
I really mean checking andadjusting these subluxated
segments, these dysfunctionalsegments where we know these
little muscles have atrophied.
And I'd also try and seesomeone that gels with you.
I think that's really important,that that connection between
the two of you, between you andyour chiropractor very important
, so much so I'm even designinga study at the moment, alan,
(18:39):
where I finally ended up nowwith two whole head EEG systems
so I can actually record fromthe patient at the same time as
I can record from the doctor.
And we know that there arestudies like, for example, with
meditation or where you've got amama and a newborn baby.
If mama plays with the baby,the baby's brain synchronizes
with mom, and I have a feelingthat this is what differentiates
(19:01):
really good chiropractors fromthose that are maybe just
mechanical, that don't reallycare.
But if you get a really goodchiropractor, they give a shit.
And if you're connecting upthen the patient with the
chiropractor, I literally wantto see if the patient's brain
synchronizes with the doctor's,because that wouldn't surprise
me either.
Speaker 1 (19:16):
That would be an interesting study, wouldn't it?
You know we have, or I do havea theory that if we get people
doing the same thing, so we havesome standardization.
Yep, so we now have 1,200proficiency-rated activator
practitioners.
Do they do other things?
Of course you know that'snormal, but they do have a basic
(19:39):
activator background.
Last month, and we have thedata to show this, we sent
17,000 new people to thoseactivator practitioners.
Speaker 2 (19:50):
Just because they 17,000.
Speaker 1 (19:51):
17,000 last month, and so we now know that they're
looking, because 96% of peopledon't go into a chiropractor's
office because they don't wantto get their neck cracked.
That's just a known thing.
That's why multidisciplinarypractice is ever so popular and
then once they put activator inthe multidisciplinary, then
they're home free because theydon't get hurt, and so so you're
(20:16):
starting with big data now.
Well, yes, didn't even know it.
We need to do somecollaborations on this Exactly,
I need that data.
Speaker 2 (20:22):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (20:24):
Are there lifestyle changes or habits that can
complement chiropractic care toimprove brain function?
Speaker 2 (20:29):
Yeah, big time, big time.
There's a lot you can do.
We know sleep it's like adishwasher for the brain.
So if you want to clear outtoxins, if you get into deep
sleep.
So if you want to clear outtoxins, if you get into deep
sleep, there's a real classicstudy that's basically shown
that you've got this glymphaticsystem now that can clean out
the brains all the toxins and ofcourse, the toxin buildup is
quite well known to beinfluencing the
(20:50):
neuroinflammation which is veryknown to be part of most of
these chronic neurodegenerativedisorders that we're getting
more and more of these days.
There's a lot of supplementsthat can help as well with
nutrition that again can reduceinflammation.
Very, very important.
Some really excellent productsthat can help again specifically
sharpen the mind.
(21:11):
Exercise again.
If you could bottle actualphysical exercise it would be
the wonder drug of the centuryagain for the brain.
But not too much, but not toolittle either.
Speaker 1 (21:21):
Well see, I have a perfect solution for that.
I have two miniature schnauzers.
Speaker 2 (21:24):
Yes, exactly.
Speaker 1 (21:25):
And they have to be walked every day, exactly, and
so they're not too big and theydon't want to go miles, and so
it works just right to go arounda few blocks and everything.
Exactly what we have to.
I get my exercise.
Speaker 2 (21:37):
We have two little dogs.
Speaker 1 (21:38):
Yes, and that's why somebody said well, why do you
keep those dogs?
And I said well, number one,they're our children.
Number two they keep meexercising.
Speaker 2 (21:47):
It's the unconditional love and getting
me outside exercising every day.
Exactly, I 100% agree, exactly.
Speaker 1 (21:52):
And so, what do you think the research has taught
you about your own life?
Speaker 2 (21:56):
research has taught you about your own life.
Well, being a scientist hashelped me a lot, I think,
because I'm not very good atlistening to what anyone else
tells me to do.
I always have to double checkit in the literature.
But I met this really cleverfunctional medicine doctor and
he got me monitoring my ownhealth with data, and that's the
(22:20):
first person I actuallylistened to when he was telling
me I was overdoing it.
Speaker 1 (22:31):
Well, you know, my wife will tell you that I'm a
hypochondriac, you know.
So I wear my watch to tell myblood oxygen level and so forth,
and so everything I can measure.
You know I have a patch so Ican check my blood sugar and you
know everything.
But you know, I think it's goodbecause, you know, one of our
doctors wrote a book on how toget healthy and the number two
thing was quit eating out.
And I thought he was crazyuntil I put on a blood sugar
(22:52):
monitor because when you eat outyou don't know what you're
getting and I thought I waseating salads.
Well, it was the dressing inthis salad and it would spike my
blood sugar and I was like holycow.
We don't even know what we'redoing to ourselves well, it
gives you that responsibilityback on.
Speaker 2 (23:06):
You, doesn't?
Speaker 1 (23:07):
it.
Yes, well now, if you takeresponsibility yourself for your
own health, yes, yeah yeah, andI needed data for that.
Speaker 2 (23:13):
So I wasn't good at just listening to someone to
tell me what I should do, whatthe numbers.
I have to look and see what thenumbers are Well.
Speaker 1 (23:19):
What do you see?
The future now?
You know, I told you when wewere talking about I have a
dream of a robotic arm goingdown the spine, you know,
telling where the subluxationsare, and then a robotic
instrument comes out and adjuststhe spine.
I think that's doable.
I think well like you said,you've got enough people
surrounding you that you canactually look at something like
(23:40):
this and say it's possible.
Speaker 2 (23:42):
We're looking at wearable technology, and that's
where I see the future.
What kind Wearable technology,so all kinds of wearable
technology.
It's like you're saying withyour little watches, but there's
a lot of new technology, LikeI've got some amazing
bioengineers that work in my labin New Zealand and there's all
sorts of new technology whereand it's really inexpensive
stuff and it's again for theactual consumer, so this
(24:04):
shouldn't cost the chiropractoranything.
But if we can get this datafrom a lot of this wearable
technology, along with theelectronic health records, so
that you're following what thechiropractor's doing, how
they're doing it, whattechniques they're using with
the patients giving thepatient-reported outcomes, and
then we're getting this wearabletechnology.
We're even working on thingslike a real simple cap that you
(24:25):
can pop on the head withliterally saline sponges, so you
literally wet sponges and stickthem in and you could do a
five-minute recording in youroffice again inexpensively,
works, with your iPhone, andfrom that five-minute recording
of EEG, which again, your staffmembers should be able to do for
you on for your patients on aregular basis, it can tell you
so much, it's not even funny.
(24:47):
So this is where I think thefuture lies in this big data and
using a lot of the wearabletechnology, really sort of you
know, low cost, inexpensivestuff, like it can fit on your
glasses and on your bra strapand things like that.
That's where I think we'll beable to in the future, using AI
and these smart computerspicking patterns.
I know there's some dangerswith AI as well, but it can be
(25:10):
utilised, Technology can beutilised and it can give us a
lot of information.
So your booth, your adjustmentbooth, it's not too far-fetched.
I just want this little thingcoming down going.
So your booth, your adjustmentbooth, it's not too far-fetched.
I just want this little thingcoming down going, monitoring
your EEG for five minutes, youknow, and you filling out a few
forms, and then it can do itsthing.
Speaker 1 (25:29):
Well, I can't tell you how much I enjoyed this
interview, because we werethinking like-minded here and I
think that well, things havecome today that can work like
this.
You know, we're in a day andage where we've got that kind of
equipment to do the job Thingsare changing.
Yes, and so thank you so much.
I can't thank you enough forbeing on the podcast and I hope
even the people out there thataren't doctors, even the
(25:50):
patients out there, gotsomething out of this.
Speaker 2 (25:52):
Me too.
I hope so too.
I hope you've enjoyed it, andI've certainly enjoyed it, thank
you so much for doing it.
Yeah, thank you.
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