July 9, 2025 • 42 mins
Regulatory changes have been coming fast and furious in the credit union mortgage industry, leaving many wondering what's still required and what's been relaxed. In this eye-opening episode, Amanda Phillips, General Counsel and EVP of Compliance with ACES Quality Management, guides us through the regulatory maze with remarkable clarity.
Amanda brings her extensive compliance knowledge to bear on one of today's hottest topics: the withdrawal of policy statements regarding abusive acts and practices (UDAP). We explore what this means practically for credit unions, particularly regarding post-closing and servicing operations. With her unique ability to make complex compliance issues accessible, Amanda helps us understand that while certain guidance has been withdrawn, core obligations remain.
The conversation takes a deep dive into PMI termination requirements, distinguishing between automatic termination (based on original loan values) and borrower-requested termination (potentially based on current valuations). We examine the potential pitfalls of online property value estimates and how they relate to PMI obligations. This section alone could save your credit union from serious compliance headaches!
We also explore how the withdrawal of guidance on "unauthorized and unreasonable fees" impacts what credit unions can charge. Amanda emphasizes that transparency remains the key, even as regulatory frameworks shift. Her insights on loss mitigation rule changes provide critical context for servicing teams navigating post-pandemic realities.
Sponsored by Consolidated Analytics
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
The views and opinions expressed in this
podcast do not necessarilyreflect the views or positions
of Acuma, its board of directors, its management staff or its
members.
The podcast discussionpresented is conversational in
nature and for generalinformation only.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
Hello and welcome to Aqua's On Point Podcast, a
series focused on sharing thestories of people who are making
a positive impact in the creditunion mortgage industry.
I'm your host, Peter Benjamin.
Before we get to our episode,just a quick word from our
sponsor.
Speaker 3 (00:43):
This episode is brought to you by Consolidated
Analytics, helping credit unionsmake smarter mortgage decisions
, from origination to servicingand beyond.
With expert valuation, riskmanagement and compliance
solutions, they provide theinsights you need to protect
your members and grow yourportfolio with confidence.
Whether it's due diligence or acollateral risk assessment,
(01:04):
they help you navigate themarket with ease.
Learn more atconsolidatedanalyticscom.
Speaker 2 (01:09):
Welcome to the third episode of our Compliance Summer
miniseries, where each episodewill feature an intimate
conversation with people who Iconsider to be experts in their
field and supporters of thecredit union movement.
As a reminder, with each ofthese episodes, it's our goal to
take a deep dive into variouscompliance topics that are
(01:30):
impacting and reshaping thecredit union mortgage industry.
Our next guest in thecompliance miniseries is Amanda
Phillips, General Counsel andEVP of Compliance with ACES
Quality Management.
Mandy, how are you doing today?
Speaker 4 (01:48):
I'm doing great, Peter.
Thank you for having me.
Speaker 2 (01:51):
Oh, it's absolutely our pleasure.
I mean, you are most certainlya regular within the Acuma
circuit.
A familiar face, a familiarvoice.
The Acuma circuit, a familiarface, a familiar voice, so we
are thrilled to have you here asyou impart your words of wisdom
on our listeners.
(02:11):
I think it's gonna be a greatconversation.
More to come on that, butbefore we get to it, as always,
got to bring Justin into theconversation.
The Hawk.
What is the latest and greatesthappening over at Acumen, by
the way?
How are you doing today?
Speaker 5 (02:28):
I'm good, peter, how are you okay?
You're okay.
Okay, I like that alright yougave me nothing.
That kind of hurts.
I'm sorry, man, it's just mymoment to like get that dialogue
going.
I know I'm just tired.
I mean it's not like youhaven't been on the road, for
you know a few times To like getthat dialogue going.
I know I'm just tired.
I mean it's not like youhaven't been on the road, for
(02:51):
you know, a few times this yearalready and we put on three
in-person events that werespectacular and I think our
members had a lot of good thingsto say.
Speaker 2 (02:57):
So I know it's just the body hurts, tired, can't get
enough sleep.
Just, I don't know what it is,man.
Speaker 5 (03:04):
Keep pushing, keep pushing.
You know what?
I totally understand that, andbut the good thing is is now
we're in the midst of the summerand so you get to kind of take,
as Krista would like to tell usall, the July reprieve, which
does not exist.
Speaker 2 (03:17):
No such thing, I'm back on the road, like next week
.
Speaker 5 (03:27):
Exactly See.
All right, there we go.
I love it.
Well, here at Acuma we are busy.
We have Make your Mark annualconference coming up in just a
couple of short months, soSeptember 21st to the 24th I
kind of stumbled on those dates,but that's the 21st to the 24th
.
We're going to be in Denver,colorado.
So if you haven't seen anythingfrom us about that, one, I'm not
doing a good job.
But two, what's going on?
Come on, follow our socials.
(03:47):
We're doing great, but we'regoing to have an amazing event
planned.
The agenda is coming togethervery nicely.
Peter keeps adding stuff to it,as always, just to make it even
more for all you guys out therelistening.
So it's going to be an excitingevent and we can't wait to
share that with you.
Other stuff we have going on wehave our networking and
(04:08):
educational opportunities.
So our newly launched servicingnetwork is going to have their
first meeting tomorrow, which issuper exciting.
So if you're in the servicingside of the mortgage industry,
be sure to check that out.
Um, we have a great group ofco-chairs lined up for you, so
I'm certain that you're going tohave a great time with that
meeting.
Our Marketing Network Q3meeting that's coming up in just
(04:30):
two weeks, so it's going to behappening on July 23rd, so head
over to the Acumen website toregister for that.
And then, of course, we haveour webinar series, our Fast
Tracks and Inside Tracks, whichare happening all year round so
we can keep that education goingon our ongoing basis.
And then our favorite I can'tsay our favorite, because
everything's our favorite, butour near and true dear to our
(04:52):
heart our On Point podcast,which just keeps the fun going
and the education all year roundas well.
Speaker 2 (05:00):
Oh yeah, you know, going back to the servicing
network, one, it's a good segueto being part of the
conversation today.
But but two, you know, when youlook at the history of Acuma,
you know the servicing component, that servicing education, is
something that's been, you know,missing from from Acuma,
something that's been.
You know that we really haven'tfocused on, it's always been
(05:24):
sales and originations andoperations.
So really excited that this iskicking off.
You know the three chairs thatwe picked are truly subject
matter experts in their field.
I think it's going to benefitour members.
I think they're going to walkaway better educated, better
(05:45):
connected.
And again, just one more steptowards us.
When I say us, I mean the Acmecommunity becoming more
well-rounded in everything thatwe do right, not just focusing
on sales, but it's the entiremortgage ecosystem and the
entire process.
So really looking forward tothat network just kicking off
(06:09):
tomorrow.
Speaker 5 (06:10):
Yeah, and the fun thing about that network also is
it's one that grew.
I guess it kind of greworganically within the Acuma
community, yep, like they becameone of the bigger communities
within our, our community onlineforum and just hearing from our
members is like an you know usputting it all together and
(06:30):
trying to answer the the needthat clearly existed for them.
So I'm excited to see it cometo fruition, as always.
Speaker 2 (06:38):
But you know, yeah, that one was definitely a member
request, like they definitelyrequested that one.
They ask we listen, we put ittogether and here we go.
Speaker 5 (06:51):
Yep, exactly Awesome man, Thank you so much.
Of course my pleasure.
Speaker 2 (06:59):
All right, Mandy, back to you.
Obviously, we have a greatconversation on compliance,
which is obviously why we arehere, and you know, I imagine
we're going to talk about awhole bunch of different stuff.
Speaker 4 (07:13):
There's not a shortage of things to talk about
.
Speaker 2 (07:18):
I'm sure they're definitely keeping you on your
toes as of late, but you know,before we get to that, get to
that, I always start with thefirst question and with the same
last question.
So I'm not going to go awayfrom that.
So, first things first.
First question is, as always,what makes Mandy Mandy?
(07:40):
So who is Mandy?
It's again.
The Action 1.0 podcast is apeople piece.
People make a positive impactin our industry.
That's always the firstquestion.
So for the people who do notknow who Amanda Phillips is, who
is Amanda Phillips?
Speaker 4 (07:57):
Amanda Phillips is a Coloradoan with three kids from
elementary school, middle schooland high school.
For dogs, yes, I am a gluttonfor punishment.
Speaker 2 (08:11):
There is such thing as a crazy dog lady, but I guess
it might've happened.
Speaker 4 (08:16):
Three of them are puppies, so there are two or a
year old and one is 10 monthsold.
So, yes, there's a lot going onaround here.
Speaker 2 (08:23):
That is a lot.
That's a lot going on aroundhere.
Okay, that is a lot.
Speaker 4 (08:26):
That's a lot.
I'm a total compliance nerd,but I also love people and I
love hanging out with my creditunion peeps always.
Speaker 2 (08:34):
Okay, love it, love it Okay.
Speaker 4 (08:38):
Let's see, I love skiing and the beach, so those
are total opposite things.
So I live in Colorado so we canski easily and then we like to
go to the beach on vacation.
What else about me?
I've been in the mortgageindustry longer than I care to
admit.
Before I became a boringcompliance lawyer, I was on the
business side, so I've been sortof sitting in the seat of all
(09:02):
of our mortgage folks that aredoing the day-to-day, which I
think is it provides aninteresting perspective for
compliance professionals.
Right, like most compliancepeople haven't done the thing,
and so being able to know, like,what people are going through
helps in sort of implementingregulations on an operational
level.
Okay.
Speaker 5 (09:22):
Okay, I love it on an operational level Okay.
I love it.
I gotta know something.
Do you surf when you go to thebeach?
I don't.
As I say, you're kind of likethe modern day.
Johnny Tsunami, you know, therewe go.
Speaker 4 (09:35):
No, but my oldest, my high schooler, wants to learn
how to surf.
Speaker 5 (09:39):
Yeah, so he'd be like the reverse Johnny Tsunami.
Yeah, I like it.
Speaker 4 (09:44):
We might have to let him learn, yeah.
Speaker 2 (09:47):
All right, I dig it, I dig it, all right.
So thank you very much forwalking, walking us through that
now.
So I've admittedly been amazedby you For much longer than my
time here at Acuma, and I'mgoing to come off like a little
(10:09):
stalker and I don't mean to yeah, uh-oh.
But a long time ago, you know,I worked at a credit union and
that credit union was lookingfor an LOS and I think before
you came to ACES or went over toACES, you worked for Accenture,
right.
Speaker 4 (10:28):
Yeah, so right before ACEs I was actually outside
counsel at Ballard's Bar.
But before that I was atAccenture.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (10:35):
Which has an LOS right.
Speaker 4 (10:36):
They do.
Speaker 2 (10:39):
And I specifically remember, specifically remember,
being in my conference room andit actually hit me.
We were talking, we had oursales rep, you know, in the
sales room and we were vettingthis, this LOS, and we were had
(11:00):
major concerns about complianceand the sales person was like,
well, let's get, you know, our,our head of compliance on on the
phone and we had this prettymuch two hour long conversation
with their head of compliance,which happened to be you, and I
knew, from that moment forward,all of my concerns about
(11:22):
compliance.
Just after a two-hour longconversation with you and I know
it sounds ridiculous, two-hourlong conversation I knew that
that was the LOS that, from acompliance standpoint, we would
be okay with.
And I was absolutely blown awayby you, by your general
knowledge about everything, thatthat was going to be the right
(11:42):
system for us to go with.
So, again, I was just blownaway by your knowledge,
everything.
It was a great conversation.
So I specifically remember thathow you stood out above
everyone else, but you're justgeneral knowledge.
So I, I I wanted to mentionthat because you, even to this
(12:05):
day, you're still someone whovery much impresses me about
your knowledge.
But the way you you engagepeople because compliance isn't
exactly the easiest of things tokeep people's attention about.
Speaker 4 (12:21):
It can be boring.
Speaker 2 (12:25):
I was trying to be nice about it, but yes.
Speaker 4 (12:27):
Well, look, unless you're a compliance nerd like me
and you think it's super funand fascinating and you want to
talk about it, most people arelike, oh, let someone else do
that.
And by the way you've nevertold me that story.
Speaker 2 (12:40):
It's true, it's true, um, and it's you.
You do a very good job, whichis one of the reasons why we
wanted to have you on thispodcast, because we want people
who can take a very difficultconversation, a very difficult
topic, and make it easy forpeople to understand.
(13:00):
So I think it's so important,right?
That's why people don't careabout compliance right, or a
compliance topic, or aregulation or an act or
something like that, becausethey get lost in the weeds, they
glass glass over and they juststop paying attention.
Speaker 4 (13:23):
It's very dense.
Speaker 2 (13:24):
It is, and you do an excellent job.
Speaker 4 (13:26):
Well, thank you.
Speaker 2 (13:27):
Of clearly spelling it out, and you're extremely
knowledgeable, and I think thisis why you keep coming back.
Speaker 4 (13:38):
I love coming back, so thanks for having me.
I try to make these thingsunderstandable, right?
If you just hand somebody amember or one of the team
members from one of our creditunions of 800 page regulation,
they're going to look at youlike I know I don't want to.
Speaker 2 (13:55):
Exactly, exactly, I know I don't want to exactly,
exactly, and there, and trust me, there are some that are like
the one that you and I had agreat conversation on back, and
this is what I want to say wasoh, maybe like uh, 2018, maybe
um 2020, 2018, where you I guessyou were at a center back then
(14:15):
18, 19.
Yeah, okay, um 2020, 2018,where you, I guess you were at a
center back then 18, 19, maybe,yeah, okay, I want to say it
was like trid.
Speaker 4 (14:21):
Oh, probably.
Speaker 2 (14:23):
Um, cause everyone was still so confused, Right and
I I at that point in time I hadjust come off, um, you know,
working for an IMB where Ihelped them implement Trid or
get ready for Trid, and so I wasstill very fresh and
(14:44):
knowledgeable off Trid and thecredit union I worked for was
still very confused about Tridand you and I had a great
conversation, and so that's agood example of how people still
don't get tread.
Speaker 4 (15:01):
They just don't oh no , it's been 10 years and we're
still talking about I mean, Ijust emailed over my old
procedures to somebody.
Speaker 2 (15:12):
I'm not joking around .
I'm not joking around, I keepeverything like in Google and in
a Google drive.
I just emailed my proceduresover to somebody because they
were going through an audit andthey were hit for trid and I was
like here are some tripprocedures, just just use them,
(15:34):
they're good.
I use them in a community bankand I use them at my last credit
game and they're good, trust me.
Anyways, I wanted to pay youthat compliment.
We're getting off track.
So.
So I think one of the things wewant to talk about is, you know,
in today's podcast is divinginto.
You know, there's been a lot ofchanges that have happened
(15:55):
lately.
You know, within this,administrations and you know
regulations being changed,whether it's at the CFPB or NCUA
or FHFA, I mean, you name it.
I think.
I think right now, our industryis, I don't say a moving target
, but the way we need to operateis ever evolving, and one of
(16:16):
the things we want to dive intois the withdrawal of policy
statements regarding the abusiveacts and practices.
Yeah, and we can shape it up tobe UDAP, right, but one of the
things I kind of sort of want tofocus on is, you know, maybe
the post-closing side of things.
(16:37):
It doesn't necessarily have tobe servicing, it can be
servicing, but anything we'llsay closing, defunding and
beyond, because all too oftenthere's a lot of things that
happen that lenders whether it's, I'll not say, credit unions
(16:59):
just aren't doing.
A good example would be thefailing to terminate PMI right,
I think there's a lot ofcomponents to it that we're just
not watching and I think weneed to dive into these things
because we could get in a lot oftrouble.
So I'll let you take it fromhere and I'm gonna shut up no,
(17:20):
you're fine.
Speaker 4 (17:21):
so, among among other things that have been rescinded
recently um, they did rescindthe um guidance on udap.
Also, if everybody hearkensback to 2022, we had the exam
manual update that dropped thatsort of shocked our the
rescission of the guidance.
(18:02):
In April.
We had the CFPB and theplaintiffs who had sued to pull
that out of the exam manualagree to a joint stipulation
dismissing that appeal.
So we've not only had therescission of the guidance
statement but now we've had theexam manual litigation
completely dismissed withprejudice.
So there's definitely a shift inphilosophy at the Bureau around
(18:27):
UDAP.
But does that mean that we justdon't have to worry about when
we terminate PMI?
We just don't have to worryabout what fees we charge?
We just nah, doesn't matteranymore.
I I would say no.
Um, you know we still need tofollow the law and there are
(18:48):
specific regulations related toautomatic termination of PMI and
requests from borrowers toterminate PMI.
You know, in service we won'tgo into all the policies and
procedures.
You should have to do that andmake sure you're covering it.
But it doesn't mean that we canjust like throw our hands in
the air and say we can chargePMI forever, we don't need to
(19:10):
worry about it.
That's absolutely not true andwe shouldn't take our eye off
the ball when it comes to PMIand all kinds of other things.
Right, but no, completely agreewith you that we still need to
pay attention to what we'redoing.
Look, if there's one thingthat's certain in our industry,
(19:30):
it's change, and we're goingthrough some rapid changes right
now.
But I think they're sort ofconsistent with other things
we're seeing come out of thisadministration.
You know saying that we'regoing to rescind all this
guidance related to UWEP.
Is you look at the through lineto?
Also, we just had the updatesto the supervisory priorities
(19:56):
come out from the Bureau and ifyou read through those now, it's
a long list.
It's three pages long.
They really say they're goingto focus on actual harm to
consumers.
Well, I would say failure toterminate PMI and continuing to
charge a consumer when theyshouldn't be charged PMI anymore
would be actual harm to aconsumer.
So it doesn't mean that theBureau doesn't care about things
(20:19):
.
It just means they're taking adifferent approach.
Speaker 2 (20:22):
So so let me ask you a question.
You know I was talking to aneighbor and they are being
serviced by your friendly nextdoor neighbor, um, you knowdoor
neighbor, mr Somebody, yourfriendly next-door neighbor.
(20:43):
And your friendly next-doorneighbor has this service where
it I don't know, I can'tremember what service it's tied
to, but it shows a value serviceit's tied to, but it shows a
value, right?
Whether it's a Zillow like aZestimate, or One of the
(21:04):
algorithm ones that doesn'testimate a value of your
property.
Speaker 4 (21:06):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (21:07):
Yeah, but based off that estimate, my neighbor's
saying, well, I'm now at a 67%LTV, right, but I'm still being
charged PMI.
And so my neighbor, knowingthat I'm still in the mortgage
industry, asked me isn't thissupposed to drop off?
I'm like, well, you probablyshould call right, yeah.
(21:30):
So let me ask you now.
Now, based off of thisinformation, doesn't your
friendly neighborhoodsubservicer have enough
information?
Based off their system,shouldn't they have
automatically done something?
Speaker 4 (21:54):
unfortunately, automatic termination is not
based on actual value orestimated values from AVMs or
you know, I think even my is itmy?
Where my deposit accounts are?
I think I have an estimatedvalue like tied in there it's
not even my servicer Like I cantie in my home and I get value.
You can get values all over theplace but your automatic
(22:18):
termination point is going to bebased on the loan that was
originated.
So it's going to be based onthe value at the time that loan
was originated and automatictermination gets calculated
based on LTV from the originalloan.
So let's say you were at 90%right.
So let's say you were at 90%right and it's going to be
(22:41):
either based on your purchaseprice or your appraised value.
So if it was a refinance at 90%right, it's going to be your
appraised value at the time theloan was bridging and that's how
they're going to amortize thatout.
You're going to have automatictermination at the time that
your loan is scheduled to be.
At that point the borrowerrequested termination is
different.
Um, I don't have it as wellmemorized, unfortunately, as
(23:08):
automatic termination provisions, but that's the whole.
Give them a call situation.
What are your procedures If Isay, oh, I'm below 70% now, like
, how does the servicer handlethat?
But on an automatic termination, unfortunately, um, your
Zillows and your gosh.
There's a hundred of them outthere, right, redfin and
everywhere else.
Those aren't going to help youwith automatic termination,
unfortunately.
Speaker 2 (23:29):
Well, I mean, but so it's a good question.
No matter what, there'sprobably enough data out there
for at least a prompt thatperson to make the phone call
though, no matter what, yeah,okay, see, that's good to know,
though, yeah okay, there's I.
Speaker 4 (23:47):
I mean, I tell people that it's, it's true.
It's as true when you're not ina delinquency risk situation as
when you're in a delinquencyrisk.
We tell you know.
We tell folks all the time likeif you're in a delinquency risk
situation as when you're in adelinquency risk, we tell you
know.
We tell folks all the time like, if you're in a delinquency
risk situation, likecommunication with your servicer
up front is the most important.
We tell our servicers, likemake sure you're communicating
(24:07):
with your customer and yourmember, especially if they're,
you know, in a situation, adelinquency risk situation.
But I personally think, like,even when you're current, if you
have questions about your loan,like, pick up the phone and
call them.
They should talk to you.
Speaker 2 (24:22):
So I'm gonna go down a rabbit hole if I can, yeah,
but isn't putting that value onthe website after you log in and
saying this is what yourproperty is worth, right?
Here's your loan balance.
Here's what your property isworth.
Here's your total equity.
(24:43):
Isn't that a little deceptive?
Speaker 4 (24:47):
I'm going to give you the lawyer answer, which is.
It depends.
Speaker 2 (24:53):
I love it.
I love it.
Speaker 4 (24:54):
I would say it depends how it's presented on
the website.
Right Like your contract onyour loan is one thing.
So let's say you have PMI.
Right Like that's all going tobe governed by that contract.
Servicers use estimated valuesand estimated equity for all
kinds of reasons, not the leastof which is marketing potential.
If they're also a lender rightPotential, refi or equity loan
(25:19):
or that kind of stuff, it's themarketing tool as well.
But as long as disclosures areconspicuous and you know, not
misleading, and you're makingall your disclosures um, I would
say not necessarily deceptive.
Speaker 2 (25:44):
Okay, hey, you have to ask.
Speaker 4 (25:48):
It depends.
You could definitely create awebsite that's very deceptive.
You could hide the ball onpeople and do all kinds of
things, but I know none of ourcredit union members would do
anything like that.
Of course not.
Speaker 2 (25:59):
No, no, the credit unions.
We only care about the people,that's right.
That's right, all right.
So, so, obviously, that that'sPMI and that's how it ties back
to, you know, obviously, udap.
And you know another thing thatthat was recently withdrawn was
the, the, the charging ofunauthorized and unreasonable
amounts of fees.
Right, so this one isinteresting because does this
(26:25):
open the door for you to be ableto charge the overdraft fee for
anything?
Speaker 4 (26:37):
That's a good question.
So yeah, it was part of thesame guidance that the charging,
overcharging or charging themunauthorized fees was considered
a UDOT violation.
So there's no official guidanceon it anymore.
But see, it's the complianceperson.
But could you still getsideways by charging um an
(27:00):
unauthorized fee or charging anoverdraft fee or the one I think
of?
Um that was really a hot topic.
Um under the bidenadministration was um the
pay-by-phone fees for thepayoffs.
For payoffs right well, charginga fee for a payoff that was
payoff, that was a big no-no.
But also it was the pay byphone.
(27:21):
So let's say you're one dayaway from a late fee for your
mortgage.
There were servicers that werecharging a fee to call and pay
with their bank account on thetelephone instead of mailing in
a check or paying online.
Instead of mailing in a checkor paying online.
Speaker 2 (27:44):
So it was these pay-by-phone fees which I mean I
don't.
Speaker 4 (27:45):
I didn't really have most of the servicers I know
were passing through the chargethat they were being charged by
the service to be able to acceptand process those pay-by-phone
fees or pay-by-phone payments.
And so, as long as you I wouldsay there's potential that those
(28:06):
fees could be allowed, as longas they are clearly disclosed,
they're not overcharged, they'renot a surprise, they're not.
You know it goes back todisclosure requirements and
actually, in the circling backto the enforcement priority list
that was put out by the Bureau,they said that disclosure
(28:28):
statutes are their best andbiggest tool.
So it's all about we're back tobasics, right, make sure you
disclose things to your, yourconsumers, make sure you're
clear, make sure you're not youknow no surprise fees.
I would say, like, make sureeverybody knows, um, what
(28:49):
they're getting into, but alsoconsider that like we may still
see activity from stateattorneys general out there and
state level regulations.
So I think it's just it comesdown to making sure that you are
clear, transparent with yourconsumer and just doing the
(29:14):
right thing.
Speaker 2 (29:15):
Okay, all right.
So you said that the chargingfor a payoff is a big no-no.
Now, this was something thatcame up last year.
Was that part of the guidancethat was withdrawn, or is it
still out there, like you can'tcharge for a payoff?
Speaker 4 (29:34):
That is a really good question, and I cannot remember
.
Speaker 2 (29:48):
Oh, I threw you a curveball, didn't you got me,
peter, because I mean that Ifeel like that was like towards
august, right, and that was aproposed rule that chobra was
was really considering aboutright.
I can't recall if that actuallywent through, though.
Speaker 4 (30:06):
Or if it was one of the ones that they're pulling
back under the CongressionalReview Act.
I can't remember either.
There's been so much going on.
Speaker 2 (30:15):
It is truly hard for all of us to keep track of all
of the different things that arehappening, but mean he did
group that into that, that udapfee, though he did chopra, that
is, did say that that was a, youknow, unfair and deceptive fee
for you to be charging um.
(30:35):
So it'll be interesting to knowwhether or not that was
included in that.
So next thing, and the lastthing that we want to figure out
is all of the loss mitigationrules that were rolled back.
So if you could, I mean, forthe sake of time, what were some
of the loss mitigation rulesthat were clawed back as part of
the, you know, the, the, reallythe UDAP things that we really
(31:00):
should focus on?
Speaker 4 (31:02):
Well, we saw some agency action where some of the
um last night guidance was thatthe end dates were pulled back
to September.
Um, I really think the big onefor for the industry as a whole.
Those weren't reallycataclysmic.
They were, you know, like COVIDstuff Instead of being extended
(31:25):
out into 2026, we pulled thingsback to September of this year.
But there was the proposedservicing rule amendments that
were hanging out there.
If you remember, those came outabout a year ago.
Actually, frankly, the intentthat was given for these
(31:46):
amendments was we learned a lotof things about streamlining
loss mitigation during COVID andthe streamlining loss
mitigation is good.
I agree with that.
The whole industry agrees.
Like we learned a lot aboutstreamlining last minute and
that it works and it's not justgood for servicers and the
industry but it's good forconsumers.
But then they put out thisproposed rule.
(32:08):
That was my, my personal opinion, atrocious.
Atrocious it was.
There were just too manyoperational issues presented.
There were um too many gaps inhow things would function.
I mean essentially the way therule was written.
(32:29):
You could a savvy consumer,intentionally trying to do so
could create a loop offorbearance that just went on
and on and on.
It just wasn't well written anda lot of really great comments
were given back to the Bureauduring the comment period about
yes, yes, we want to streamlineloss met, just not like that.
(32:50):
Can we fix some things?
Can we do this better?
And I was really hopeful thatwe would get a final rule that
was good for consumers, good forindustry.
Streamline last minute theindustry wants this.
This isn't something we don'tlike, the industry doesn't want.
We want it desperately.
But that's just, it's on, it'sout there.
(33:11):
So there's no final rule.
We don't have anything and Ihaven't heard any rumors that
they're actually going to do afinal rule.
But that is one I would love tosee the Bureau say okay,
industry, you're right, the waywe did that in 2024 was not
great for anybody.
Let's amend our RegEx servicingrules and create a streamlined
(33:35):
last minute process that worksfor consumers and the industry.
From the lessons learned fromCOVID.
That's the big one I want tosee happen.
Don't hold down hope.
Speaker 2 (33:46):
Hold down hope.
It's interesting, right, I mean.
The big question is, though,it's like I mean, a lot's
happening right, and you know,recently you know a gentleman I
forgot his last name, but I knowhis first name is Eli from Tim
Scott's office just went over toCPB, and obviously you have
Collaborator over there.
(34:06):
So it's kind of interesting tosee.
You know how they are, you knowreshaping the CPB, and you kind
of wonder what directionthey're taking this right, what
they're taking this right, whatthey're putting.
Some people in there likeobviously collaborate, and you
have people from this gentlemanfrom tim scott's office, but
(34:27):
again, it's a skeleton crew.
Now it is, but but are theyactually going to start putting
out your true guidance?
Or is this still more ofassessing and evaluating, to the
point where, all right, let'sjust continue to clean up the
(34:50):
mess that we have, right?
I think we still needclarification on a lot of things
.
Speaker 4 (34:56):
And I do too.
I mean, they pulled back 67guidance, I think going back to
2013.
So it's like, okay, we strippedaway all of that, some of which
you know industry's happy about,some of which they're not.
Like it's a mixed bag of thingsthat were pulled back and,
you're right, it's a skeletoncrew.
(35:17):
They're also immersed in a lotof litigation around sort of the
way things have gone down inthe last several months.
Um, and I'm I'm really curiousto see sort of what the go
forward approaches.
I feel like are they done,doing the housekeeping they want
to do?
I don't, I have no idea.
(35:39):
I wish I did.
I'll get my crystal ball for allof us and I'll just start
making predictions, um, but I Iam cautiously optimistic that
when things settle a little bit,that maybe we'll start to get
some guidance again.
Um, I'm holding out hope, okay.
Speaker 2 (35:59):
Okay, all right.
Well, mandy, we need to starttransitioning to the second
segment, and thank you very muchfor all of the important
information.
Before we do, though, again, Ialways, like I said, I always
end with the same last question.
The last question is what keepsyou going?
I think it's a good balance tothe first question is what keeps
you going?
I think I think it's a goodbalance to the first question.
(36:21):
We found out who you were inthat first question, and the
second question is that.
Well, the last question is whenyou?
What keeps you going?
What keeps you motivated?
What keeps you driving forwardday in, day out?
So there you go.
What?
What keeps you going?
Speaker 4 (36:38):
I think there.
I think there's a dual answerto that.
Um, my kids keep me going.
For sure, they're definitely abig part of my why.
Um, but honestly, it's everythe other piece, like on the
professional side of things,what keeps me going is I have
been eternally blessed with allthe wonderful people that I get
(37:03):
to work with, not just at my owncompany, at ACEs.
I am lucky in that way.
I apologize for the dog barking, no, it's fine.
But also all the people outsideof my company that I get to work
with.
It includes you and Krista andJustin and everybody Acuma, but
(37:23):
you know the folks that I knowfrom previous companies.
I still talk to folks at my oldLOS and I get to continue to
have those relationships and thefact that we in this in the
mortgage industry, we are reallylucky.
In this in the mortgageindustry, we are really lucky.
We have a great group of peopleand we have amazing connections
(37:43):
to each other and we can reallyhelp each other when we when we
want to, and I think I've beenlucky enough to work with people
that want to help each otherand not just help you know their
little company, but I've beenand and being part of the credit
union space is a big part ofthat.
It's sort of that same, youknow, sense of community and
that we're all in this togetherand we're all trying to get to
(38:06):
the same place.
Speaker 2 (38:07):
Um, but it's just great people no, I love it, love
it, love it, love it.
All right, it's time for us totransition to the second segment
of our podcast.
Now, just like every othercompliance episode, we're going
to do the most requested, fanfavorite series of dad jokes.
(38:29):
So, prior to the recording, Iasked you to come prepared with
two or three dad jokes, and, ofcourse, we're always just going
to do two dad jokes.
Here's what we're going to doI'm going to have you do your
two dad jokes and, of course,we're always just going to do
two dad jokes.
Here's what we're going to doI'm going to have you do your
two dad jokes, justin's going todo his two dad jokes and I will
wrap up with my two dad jokes.
So, mandy, whenever you areready, fire away with your two
(38:52):
dad jokes.
Speaker 4 (38:53):
All right, peter.
When does a joke become a dadjoke?
Speaker 2 (38:57):
When.
Speaker 4 (38:59):
When, when the punchline becomes apparent.
Speaker 2 (39:02):
Good one.
Speaker 4 (39:03):
That's my new favorite one.
I like that one.
All right, I got another one.
How did?
Speaker 5 (39:11):
the barber win the race.
What did he do?
Cut someone.
Speaker 2 (39:14):
Cut someone off.
Cut someone off.
He knew a shortcut.
He knew a shortcut.
Ah, shortcut, there we go.
That's right, there you go.
Speaker 5 (39:23):
Alright, excellent, alright, justin alright, I hired
a handyman and gave him a to dolist.
When I got home, only items 1,3, and 5 got done, turns out.
He only does odd jobs.
Speaker 4 (39:45):
I like that one.
Speaker 5 (39:46):
That was a good one.
And then, why did the knightsurrender once all his limbs
were cut off?
Wait one more time.
Why did the knight surrenderonce all his limbs were cut off?
I thought you said once all hisloans were cut off?
Wait one more time.
Why did the knight surrenderonce all his limbs were cut off?
Speaker 2 (40:00):
I thought you said once all his loans were cut off.
I was like is this a mortgagejoke?
Speaker 4 (40:05):
A mortgage, dad joke.
Speaker 5 (40:08):
We have had those, a lot of them, a lot of them.
Speaker 4 (40:11):
Oh, I need to find some.
Speaker 5 (40:13):
Why did the knight surrender once all his limbs
were cut off?
Why, I don't know, because hewas unarmed and defeated.
Speaker 4 (40:28):
That's a good one.
Speaker 2 (40:29):
Alright, my turn.
Speaker 4 (40:31):
Alright, Peter, you're up.
Speaker 2 (40:34):
How do you make an egg roll?
You push it.
How do you make an egg roll?
Speaker 5 (40:41):
You push it?
Speaker 2 (40:45):
Why can't you hear Pterodactyl going to the
bathroom?
Speaker 5 (40:48):
Oh, come on.
Do you really want to go withthat one?
Speaker 2 (40:52):
The P is silent.
Speaker 5 (40:55):
Still a good one though.
Speaker 4 (40:57):
It was a good one, only by a good one, though.
It was a good one, oldie but agoodie, yep, all right.
Speaker 2 (41:02):
Well, that wraps up this episode of Dad Jokes Mandy,
thank you very much foreverything that you do for our
industry and being a great guestand, of course, looking forward
to seeing you at Annual.
We have a great session focusedon fair lending that I'm really
looking forward to having yoube a part of, so thank you for
(41:25):
actually your you volunteeringas tribute for that one.
Speaker 4 (41:29):
I cannot wait.
Hey, y'all are coming to myhometown, so I'll see you in
Denver.
Speaker 2 (41:34):
That's right.
That's right.
Thank you very much, and Justin, thank you, Of course.
It was my pleasure, Of course.
And to close out, thank youagain to Consolidated Analytics
for sponsoring today's episodeand to all of you.
We know your time is valuable.
Thank you for tuning in to thelatest episode of Acuma's On
Point podcast.
We hope you enjoyed it.
Until next time.
(41:55):
Be well, my friends.
Speaker 1 (41:58):
We hope you enjoyed it.
Until next time, be well, myfriends.
Thanks for listening.
We'll see you next time at theAcuma On Point podcast, if not
already.
Be sure to subscribe and giveus a five-star rating For more
great episodes and information.
Be sure to visit us online atacumaorg and to get the latest
updates, head over to ourLinkedIn page.
The views and opinions expressed in this
podcast do not necessarilyreflect the views or positions
of Acuma, its board of directors, its management staff or its
members.
The podcast discussionpresented is conversational in
nature and for generalinformation only.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
Hello and welcome to Aqua's On Point Podcast, a
series focused on sharing thestories of people who are making
a positive impact in the creditunion mortgage industry.
I'm your host, Peter Benjamin.
Before we get to our episode,just a quick word from our
sponsor.
Speaker 3 (00:43):
This episode is brought to you by Consolidated
Analytics, helping credit unionsmake smarter mortgage decisions
, from origination to servicingand beyond.
With expert valuation, riskmanagement and compliance
solutions, they provide theinsights you need to protect
your members and grow yourportfolio with confidence.
Whether it's due diligence or acollateral risk assessment,
(01:04):
they help you navigate themarket with ease.
Learn more atconsolidatedanalyticscom.
Speaker 2 (01:09):
Welcome to the third episode of our Compliance Summer
miniseries, where each episodewill feature an intimate
conversation with people who Iconsider to be experts in their
field and supporters of thecredit union movement.
As a reminder, with each ofthese episodes, it's our goal to
take a deep dive into variouscompliance topics that are
(01:30):
impacting and reshaping thecredit union mortgage industry.
Our next guest in thecompliance miniseries is Amanda
Phillips, General Counsel andEVP of Compliance with ACES
Quality Management.
Mandy, how are you doing today?
Speaker 4 (01:48):
I'm doing great, Peter.
Thank you for having me.
Speaker 2 (01:51):
Oh, it's absolutely our pleasure.
I mean, you are most certainlya regular within the Acuma
circuit.
A familiar face, a familiarvoice.
The Acuma circuit, a familiarface, a familiar voice, so we
are thrilled to have you here asyou impart your words of wisdom
on our listeners.
(02:11):
I think it's gonna be a greatconversation.
More to come on that, butbefore we get to it, as always,
got to bring Justin into theconversation.
The Hawk.
What is the latest and greatesthappening over at Acumen, by
the way?
How are you doing today?
Speaker 5 (02:28):
I'm good, peter, how are you okay?
You're okay.
Okay, I like that alright yougave me nothing.
That kind of hurts.
I'm sorry, man, it's just mymoment to like get that dialogue
going.
I know I'm just tired.
I mean it's not like youhaven't been on the road, for
you know a few times To like getthat dialogue going.
I know I'm just tired.
I mean it's not like youhaven't been on the road, for
(02:51):
you know, a few times this yearalready and we put on three
in-person events that werespectacular and I think our
members had a lot of good thingsto say.
Speaker 2 (02:57):
So I know it's just the body hurts, tired, can't get
enough sleep.
Just, I don't know what it is,man.
Speaker 5 (03:04):
Keep pushing, keep pushing.
You know what?
I totally understand that, andbut the good thing is is now
we're in the midst of the summerand so you get to kind of take,
as Krista would like to tell usall, the July reprieve, which
does not exist.
Speaker 2 (03:17):
No such thing, I'm back on the road, like next week
.
Speaker 5 (03:27):
Exactly See.
All right, there we go.
I love it.
Well, here at Acuma we are busy.
We have Make your Mark annualconference coming up in just a
couple of short months, soSeptember 21st to the 24th I
kind of stumbled on those dates,but that's the 21st to the 24th
.
We're going to be in Denver,colorado.
So if you haven't seen anythingfrom us about that, one, I'm not
doing a good job.
But two, what's going on?
Come on, follow our socials.
(03:47):
We're doing great, but we'regoing to have an amazing event
planned.
The agenda is coming togethervery nicely.
Peter keeps adding stuff to it,as always, just to make it even
more for all you guys out therelistening.
So it's going to be an excitingevent and we can't wait to
share that with you.
Other stuff we have going on wehave our networking and
(04:08):
educational opportunities.
So our newly launched servicingnetwork is going to have their
first meeting tomorrow, which issuper exciting.
So if you're in the servicingside of the mortgage industry,
be sure to check that out.
Um, we have a great group ofco-chairs lined up for you, so
I'm certain that you're going tohave a great time with that
meeting.
Our Marketing Network Q3meeting that's coming up in just
(04:30):
two weeks, so it's going to behappening on July 23rd, so head
over to the Acumen website toregister for that.
And then, of course, we haveour webinar series, our Fast
Tracks and Inside Tracks, whichare happening all year round so
we can keep that education goingon our ongoing basis.
And then our favorite I can'tsay our favorite, because
everything's our favorite, butour near and true dear to our
(04:52):
heart our On Point podcast,which just keeps the fun going
and the education all year roundas well.
Speaker 2 (05:00):
Oh yeah, you know, going back to the servicing
network, one, it's a good segueto being part of the
conversation today.
But but two, you know, when youlook at the history of Acuma,
you know the servicing component, that servicing education, is
something that's been, you know,missing from from Acuma,
something that's been.
You know that we really haven'tfocused on, it's always been
(05:24):
sales and originations andoperations.
So really excited that this iskicking off.
You know the three chairs thatwe picked are truly subject
matter experts in their field.
I think it's going to benefitour members.
I think they're going to walkaway better educated, better
(05:45):
connected.
And again, just one more steptowards us.
When I say us, I mean the Acmecommunity becoming more
well-rounded in everything thatwe do right, not just focusing
on sales, but it's the entiremortgage ecosystem and the
entire process.
So really looking forward tothat network just kicking off
(06:09):
tomorrow.
Speaker 5 (06:10):
Yeah, and the fun thing about that network also is
it's one that grew.
I guess it kind of greworganically within the Acuma
community, yep, like they becameone of the bigger communities
within our, our community onlineforum and just hearing from our
members is like an you know usputting it all together and
(06:30):
trying to answer the the needthat clearly existed for them.
So I'm excited to see it cometo fruition, as always.
Speaker 2 (06:38):
But you know, yeah, that one was definitely a member
request, like they definitelyrequested that one.
They ask we listen, we put ittogether and here we go.
Speaker 5 (06:51):
Yep, exactly Awesome man, Thank you so much.
Of course my pleasure.
Speaker 2 (06:59):
All right, Mandy, back to you.
Obviously, we have a greatconversation on compliance,
which is obviously why we arehere, and you know, I imagine
we're going to talk about awhole bunch of different stuff.
Speaker 4 (07:13):
There's not a shortage of things to talk about
.
Speaker 2 (07:18):
I'm sure they're definitely keeping you on your
toes as of late, but you know,before we get to that, get to
that, I always start with thefirst question and with the same
last question.
So I'm not going to go awayfrom that.
So, first things first.
First question is, as always,what makes Mandy Mandy?
(07:40):
So who is Mandy?
It's again.
The Action 1.0 podcast is apeople piece.
People make a positive impactin our industry.
That's always the firstquestion.
So for the people who do notknow who Amanda Phillips is, who
is Amanda Phillips?
Speaker 4 (07:57):
Amanda Phillips is a Coloradoan with three kids from
elementary school, middle schooland high school.
For dogs, yes, I am a gluttonfor punishment.
Speaker 2 (08:11):
There is such thing as a crazy dog lady, but I guess
it might've happened.
Speaker 4 (08:16):
Three of them are puppies, so there are two or a
year old and one is 10 monthsold.
So, yes, there's a lot going onaround here.
Speaker 2 (08:23):
That is a lot.
That's a lot going on aroundhere.
Okay, that is a lot.
Speaker 4 (08:26):
That's a lot.
I'm a total compliance nerd,but I also love people and I
love hanging out with my creditunion peeps always.
Speaker 2 (08:34):
Okay, love it, love it Okay.
Speaker 4 (08:38):
Let's see, I love skiing and the beach, so those
are total opposite things.
So I live in Colorado so we canski easily and then we like to
go to the beach on vacation.
What else about me?
I've been in the mortgageindustry longer than I care to
admit.
Before I became a boringcompliance lawyer, I was on the
business side, so I've been sortof sitting in the seat of all
(09:02):
of our mortgage folks that aredoing the day-to-day, which I
think is it provides aninteresting perspective for
compliance professionals.
Right, like most compliancepeople haven't done the thing,
and so being able to know, like,what people are going through
helps in sort of implementingregulations on an operational
level.
Okay.
Speaker 5 (09:22):
Okay, I love it on an operational level Okay.
I love it.
I gotta know something.
Do you surf when you go to thebeach?
I don't.
As I say, you're kind of likethe modern day.
Johnny Tsunami, you know, therewe go.
Speaker 4 (09:35):
No, but my oldest, my high schooler, wants to learn
how to surf.
Speaker 5 (09:39):
Yeah, so he'd be like the reverse Johnny Tsunami.
Yeah, I like it.
Speaker 4 (09:44):
We might have to let him learn, yeah.
Speaker 2 (09:47):
All right, I dig it, I dig it, all right.
So thank you very much forwalking, walking us through that
now.
So I've admittedly been amazedby you For much longer than my
time here at Acuma, and I'mgoing to come off like a little
(10:09):
stalker and I don't mean to yeah, uh-oh.
But a long time ago, you know,I worked at a credit union and
that credit union was lookingfor an LOS and I think before
you came to ACES or went over toACES, you worked for Accenture,
right.
Speaker 4 (10:28):
Yeah, so right before ACEs I was actually outside
counsel at Ballard's Bar.
But before that I was atAccenture.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (10:35):
Which has an LOS right.
Speaker 4 (10:36):
They do.
Speaker 2 (10:39):
And I specifically remember, specifically remember,
being in my conference room andit actually hit me.
We were talking, we had oursales rep, you know, in the
sales room and we were vettingthis, this LOS, and we were had
(11:00):
major concerns about complianceand the sales person was like,
well, let's get, you know, our,our head of compliance on on the
phone and we had this prettymuch two hour long conversation
with their head of compliance,which happened to be you, and I
knew, from that moment forward,all of my concerns about
(11:22):
compliance.
Just after a two-hour longconversation with you and I know
it sounds ridiculous, two-hourlong conversation I knew that
that was the LOS that, from acompliance standpoint, we would
be okay with.
And I was absolutely blown awayby you, by your general
knowledge about everything, thatthat was going to be the right
(11:42):
system for us to go with.
So, again, I was just blownaway by your knowledge,
everything.
It was a great conversation.
So I specifically remember thathow you stood out above
everyone else, but you're justgeneral knowledge.
So I, I I wanted to mentionthat because you, even to this
(12:05):
day, you're still someone whovery much impresses me about
your knowledge.
But the way you you engagepeople because compliance isn't
exactly the easiest of things tokeep people's attention about.
Speaker 4 (12:21):
It can be boring.
Speaker 2 (12:25):
I was trying to be nice about it, but yes.
Speaker 4 (12:27):
Well, look, unless you're a compliance nerd like me
and you think it's super funand fascinating and you want to
talk about it, most people arelike, oh, let someone else do
that.
And by the way you've nevertold me that story.
Speaker 2 (12:40):
It's true, it's true, um, and it's you.
You do a very good job, whichis one of the reasons why we
wanted to have you on thispodcast, because we want people
who can take a very difficultconversation, a very difficult
topic, and make it easy forpeople to understand.
(13:00):
So I think it's so important,right?
That's why people don't careabout compliance right, or a
compliance topic, or aregulation or an act or
something like that, becausethey get lost in the weeds, they
glass glass over and they juststop paying attention.
Speaker 4 (13:23):
It's very dense.
Speaker 2 (13:24):
It is, and you do an excellent job.
Speaker 4 (13:26):
Well, thank you.
Speaker 2 (13:27):
Of clearly spelling it out, and you're extremely
knowledgeable, and I think thisis why you keep coming back.
Speaker 4 (13:38):
I love coming back, so thanks for having me.
I try to make these thingsunderstandable, right?
If you just hand somebody amember or one of the team
members from one of our creditunions of 800 page regulation,
they're going to look at youlike I know I don't want to.
Speaker 2 (13:55):
Exactly, exactly, I know I don't want to exactly,
exactly, and there, and trust me, there are some that are like
the one that you and I had agreat conversation on back, and
this is what I want to say wasoh, maybe like uh, 2018, maybe
um 2020, 2018, where you I guessyou were at a center back then
(14:15):
18, 19.
Yeah, okay, um 2020, 2018,where you, I guess you were at a
center back then 18, 19, maybe,yeah, okay, I want to say it
was like trid.
Speaker 4 (14:21):
Oh, probably.
Speaker 2 (14:23):
Um, cause everyone was still so confused, Right and
I I at that point in time I hadjust come off, um, you know,
working for an IMB where Ihelped them implement Trid or
get ready for Trid, and so I wasstill very fresh and
(14:44):
knowledgeable off Trid and thecredit union I worked for was
still very confused about Tridand you and I had a great
conversation, and so that's agood example of how people still
don't get tread.
Speaker 4 (15:01):
They just don't oh no , it's been 10 years and we're
still talking about I mean, Ijust emailed over my old
procedures to somebody.
Speaker 2 (15:12):
I'm not joking around .
I'm not joking around, I keepeverything like in Google and in
a Google drive.
I just emailed my proceduresover to somebody because they
were going through an audit andthey were hit for trid and I was
like here are some tripprocedures, just just use them,
(15:34):
they're good.
I use them in a community bankand I use them at my last credit
game and they're good, trust me.
Anyways, I wanted to pay youthat compliment.
We're getting off track.
So.
So I think one of the things wewant to talk about is, you know,
in today's podcast is divinginto.
You know, there's been a lot ofchanges that have happened
(15:55):
lately.
You know, within this,administrations and you know
regulations being changed,whether it's at the CFPB or NCUA
or FHFA, I mean, you name it.
I think.
I think right now, our industryis, I don't say a moving target
, but the way we need to operateis ever evolving, and one of
(16:16):
the things we want to dive intois the withdrawal of policy
statements regarding the abusiveacts and practices.
Yeah, and we can shape it up tobe UDAP, right, but one of the
things I kind of sort of want tofocus on is, you know, maybe
the post-closing side of things.
(16:37):
It doesn't necessarily have tobe servicing, it can be
servicing, but anything we'llsay closing, defunding and
beyond, because all too oftenthere's a lot of things that
happen that lenders whether it's, I'll not say, credit unions
(16:59):
just aren't doing.
A good example would be thefailing to terminate PMI right,
I think there's a lot ofcomponents to it that we're just
not watching and I think weneed to dive into these things
because we could get in a lot oftrouble.
So I'll let you take it fromhere and I'm gonna shut up no,
(17:20):
you're fine.
Speaker 4 (17:21):
so, among among other things that have been rescinded
recently um, they did rescindthe um guidance on udap.
Also, if everybody hearkensback to 2022, we had the exam
manual update that dropped thatsort of shocked our the
rescission of the guidance.
(18:02):
In April.
We had the CFPB and theplaintiffs who had sued to pull
that out of the exam manualagree to a joint stipulation
dismissing that appeal.
So we've not only had therescission of the guidance
statement but now we've had theexam manual litigation
completely dismissed withprejudice.
So there's definitely a shift inphilosophy at the Bureau around
(18:27):
UDAP.
But does that mean that we justdon't have to worry about when
we terminate PMI?
We just don't have to worryabout what fees we charge?
We just nah, doesn't matteranymore.
I I would say no.
Um, you know we still need tofollow the law and there are
(18:48):
specific regulations related toautomatic termination of PMI and
requests from borrowers toterminate PMI.
You know, in service we won'tgo into all the policies and
procedures.
You should have to do that andmake sure you're covering it.
But it doesn't mean that we canjust like throw our hands in
the air and say we can chargePMI forever, we don't need to
(19:10):
worry about it.
That's absolutely not true andwe shouldn't take our eye off
the ball when it comes to PMIand all kinds of other things.
Right, but no, completely agreewith you that we still need to
pay attention to what we'redoing.
Look, if there's one thingthat's certain in our industry,
(19:30):
it's change, and we're goingthrough some rapid changes right
now.
But I think they're sort ofconsistent with other things
we're seeing come out of thisadministration.
You know saying that we'regoing to rescind all this
guidance related to UWEP.
Is you look at the through lineto?
Also, we just had the updatesto the supervisory priorities
(19:56):
come out from the Bureau and ifyou read through those now, it's
a long list.
It's three pages long.
They really say they're goingto focus on actual harm to
consumers.
Well, I would say failure toterminate PMI and continuing to
charge a consumer when theyshouldn't be charged PMI anymore
would be actual harm to aconsumer.
So it doesn't mean that theBureau doesn't care about things
(20:19):
.
It just means they're taking adifferent approach.
Speaker 2 (20:22):
So so let me ask you a question.
You know I was talking to aneighbor and they are being
serviced by your friendly nextdoor neighbor, um, you knowdoor
neighbor, mr Somebody, yourfriendly next-door neighbor.
(20:43):
And your friendly next-doorneighbor has this service where
it I don't know, I can'tremember what service it's tied
to, but it shows a value serviceit's tied to, but it shows a
value, right?
Whether it's a Zillow like aZestimate, or One of the
(21:04):
algorithm ones that doesn'testimate a value of your
property.
Speaker 4 (21:06):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (21:07):
Yeah, but based off that estimate, my neighbor's
saying, well, I'm now at a 67%LTV, right, but I'm still being
charged PMI.
And so my neighbor, knowingthat I'm still in the mortgage
industry, asked me isn't thissupposed to drop off?
I'm like, well, you probablyshould call right, yeah.
(21:30):
So let me ask you now.
Now, based off of thisinformation, doesn't your
friendly neighborhoodsubservicer have enough
information?
Based off their system,shouldn't they have
automatically done something?
Speaker 4 (21:54):
unfortunately, automatic termination is not
based on actual value orestimated values from AVMs or
you know, I think even my is itmy?
Where my deposit accounts are?
I think I have an estimatedvalue like tied in there it's
not even my servicer Like I cantie in my home and I get value.
You can get values all over theplace but your automatic
(22:18):
termination point is going to bebased on the loan that was
originated.
So it's going to be based onthe value at the time that loan
was originated and automatictermination gets calculated
based on LTV from the originalloan.
So let's say you were at 90%right.
So let's say you were at 90%right and it's going to be
(22:41):
either based on your purchaseprice or your appraised value.
So if it was a refinance at 90%right, it's going to be your
appraised value at the time theloan was bridging and that's how
they're going to amortize thatout.
You're going to have automatictermination at the time that
your loan is scheduled to be.
At that point the borrowerrequested termination is
different.
Um, I don't have it as wellmemorized, unfortunately, as
(23:08):
automatic termination provisions, but that's the whole.
Give them a call situation.
What are your procedures If Isay, oh, I'm below 70% now, like
, how does the servicer handlethat?
But on an automatic termination, unfortunately, um, your
Zillows and your gosh.
There's a hundred of them outthere, right, redfin and
everywhere else.
Those aren't going to help youwith automatic termination,
unfortunately.
Speaker 2 (23:29):
Well, I mean, but so it's a good question.
No matter what, there'sprobably enough data out there
for at least a prompt thatperson to make the phone call
though, no matter what, yeah,okay, see, that's good to know,
though, yeah okay, there's I.
Speaker 4 (23:47):
I mean, I tell people that it's, it's true.
It's as true when you're not ina delinquency risk situation as
when you're in a delinquencyrisk.
We tell you know.
We tell folks all the time likeif you're in a delinquency risk
situation as when you're in adelinquency risk, we tell you
know.
We tell folks all the time like, if you're in a delinquency
risk situation, likecommunication with your servicer
up front is the most important.
We tell our servicers, likemake sure you're communicating
(24:07):
with your customer and yourmember, especially if they're,
you know, in a situation, adelinquency risk situation.
But I personally think, like,even when you're current, if you
have questions about your loan,like, pick up the phone and
call them.
They should talk to you.
Speaker 2 (24:22):
So I'm gonna go down a rabbit hole if I can, yeah,
but isn't putting that value onthe website after you log in and
saying this is what yourproperty is worth, right?
Here's your loan balance.
Here's what your property isworth.
Here's your total equity.
(24:43):
Isn't that a little deceptive?
Speaker 4 (24:47):
I'm going to give you the lawyer answer, which is.
It depends.
Speaker 2 (24:53):
I love it.
I love it.
Speaker 4 (24:54):
I would say it depends how it's presented on
the website.
Right Like your contract onyour loan is one thing.
So let's say you have PMI.
Right Like that's all going tobe governed by that contract.
Servicers use estimated valuesand estimated equity for all
kinds of reasons, not the leastof which is marketing potential.
If they're also a lender rightPotential, refi or equity loan
(25:19):
or that kind of stuff, it's themarketing tool as well.
But as long as disclosures areconspicuous and you know, not
misleading, and you're makingall your disclosures um, I would
say not necessarily deceptive.
Speaker 2 (25:44):
Okay, hey, you have to ask.
Speaker 4 (25:48):
It depends.
You could definitely create awebsite that's very deceptive.
You could hide the ball onpeople and do all kinds of
things, but I know none of ourcredit union members would do
anything like that.
Of course not.
Speaker 2 (25:59):
No, no, the credit unions.
We only care about the people,that's right.
That's right, all right.
So, so, obviously, that that'sPMI and that's how it ties back
to, you know, obviously, udap.
And you know another thing thatthat was recently withdrawn was
the, the, the charging ofunauthorized and unreasonable
amounts of fees.
Right, so this one isinteresting because does this
(26:25):
open the door for you to be ableto charge the overdraft fee for
anything?
Speaker 4 (26:37):
That's a good question.
So yeah, it was part of thesame guidance that the charging,
overcharging or charging themunauthorized fees was considered
a UDOT violation.
So there's no official guidanceon it anymore.
But see, it's the complianceperson.
But could you still getsideways by charging um an
(27:00):
unauthorized fee or charging anoverdraft fee or the one I think
of?
Um that was really a hot topic.
Um under the bidenadministration was um the
pay-by-phone fees for thepayoffs.
For payoffs right well, charginga fee for a payoff that was
payoff, that was a big no-no.
But also it was the pay byphone.
(27:21):
So let's say you're one dayaway from a late fee for your
mortgage.
There were servicers that werecharging a fee to call and pay
with their bank account on thetelephone instead of mailing in
a check or paying online.
Instead of mailing in a checkor paying online.
Speaker 2 (27:44):
So it was these pay-by-phone fees which I mean I
don't.
Speaker 4 (27:45):
I didn't really have most of the servicers I know
were passing through the chargethat they were being charged by
the service to be able to acceptand process those pay-by-phone
fees or pay-by-phone payments.
And so, as long as you I wouldsay there's potential that those
(28:06):
fees could be allowed, as longas they are clearly disclosed,
they're not overcharged, they'renot a surprise, they're not.
You know it goes back todisclosure requirements and
actually, in the circling backto the enforcement priority list
that was put out by the Bureau,they said that disclosure
(28:28):
statutes are their best andbiggest tool.
So it's all about we're back tobasics, right, make sure you
disclose things to your, yourconsumers, make sure you're
clear, make sure you're not youknow no surprise fees.
I would say, like, make sureeverybody knows, um, what
(28:49):
they're getting into, but alsoconsider that like we may still
see activity from stateattorneys general out there and
state level regulations.
So I think it's just it comesdown to making sure that you are
clear, transparent with yourconsumer and just doing the
(29:14):
right thing.
Speaker 2 (29:15):
Okay, all right.
So you said that the chargingfor a payoff is a big no-no.
Now, this was something thatcame up last year.
Was that part of the guidancethat was withdrawn, or is it
still out there, like you can'tcharge for a payoff?
Speaker 4 (29:34):
That is a really good question, and I cannot remember
.
Speaker 2 (29:48):
Oh, I threw you a curveball, didn't you got me,
peter, because I mean that Ifeel like that was like towards
august, right, and that was aproposed rule that chobra was
was really considering aboutright.
I can't recall if that actuallywent through, though.
Speaker 4 (30:06):
Or if it was one of the ones that they're pulling
back under the CongressionalReview Act.
I can't remember either.
There's been so much going on.
Speaker 2 (30:15):
It is truly hard for all of us to keep track of all
of the different things that arehappening, but mean he did
group that into that, that udapfee, though he did chopra, that
is, did say that that was a, youknow, unfair and deceptive fee
for you to be charging um.
(30:35):
So it'll be interesting to knowwhether or not that was
included in that.
So next thing, and the lastthing that we want to figure out
is all of the loss mitigationrules that were rolled back.
So if you could, I mean, forthe sake of time, what were some
of the loss mitigation rulesthat were clawed back as part of
the, you know, the, the, reallythe UDAP things that we really
(31:00):
should focus on?
Speaker 4 (31:02):
Well, we saw some agency action where some of the
um last night guidance was thatthe end dates were pulled back
to September.
Um, I really think the big onefor for the industry as a whole.
Those weren't reallycataclysmic.
They were, you know, like COVIDstuff Instead of being extended
(31:25):
out into 2026, we pulled thingsback to September of this year.
But there was the proposedservicing rule amendments that
were hanging out there.
If you remember, those came outabout a year ago.
Actually, frankly, the intentthat was given for these
(31:46):
amendments was we learned a lotof things about streamlining
loss mitigation during COVID andthe streamlining loss
mitigation is good.
I agree with that.
The whole industry agrees.
Like we learned a lot aboutstreamlining last minute and
that it works and it's not justgood for servicers and the
industry but it's good forconsumers.
But then they put out thisproposed rule.
(32:08):
That was my, my personal opinion, atrocious.
Atrocious it was.
There were just too manyoperational issues presented.
There were um too many gaps inhow things would function.
I mean essentially the way therule was written.
(32:29):
You could a savvy consumer,intentionally trying to do so
could create a loop offorbearance that just went on
and on and on.
It just wasn't well written anda lot of really great comments
were given back to the Bureauduring the comment period about
yes, yes, we want to streamlineloss met, just not like that.
(32:50):
Can we fix some things?
Can we do this better?
And I was really hopeful thatwe would get a final rule that
was good for consumers, good forindustry.
Streamline last minute theindustry wants this.
This isn't something we don'tlike, the industry doesn't want.
We want it desperately.
But that's just, it's on, it'sout there.
(33:11):
So there's no final rule.
We don't have anything and Ihaven't heard any rumors that
they're actually going to do afinal rule.
But that is one I would love tosee the Bureau say okay,
industry, you're right, the waywe did that in 2024 was not
great for anybody.
Let's amend our RegEx servicingrules and create a streamlined
(33:35):
last minute process that worksfor consumers and the industry.
From the lessons learned fromCOVID.
That's the big one I want tosee happen.
Don't hold down hope.
Speaker 2 (33:46):
Hold down hope.
It's interesting, right, I mean.
The big question is, though,it's like I mean, a lot's
happening right, and you know,recently you know a gentleman I
forgot his last name, but I knowhis first name is Eli from Tim
Scott's office just went over toCPB, and obviously you have
Collaborator over there.
(34:06):
So it's kind of interesting tosee.
You know how they are, you knowreshaping the CPB, and you kind
of wonder what directionthey're taking this right, what
they're taking this right, whatthey're putting.
Some people in there likeobviously collaborate, and you
have people from this gentlemanfrom tim scott's office, but
(34:27):
again, it's a skeleton crew.
Now it is, but but are theyactually going to start putting
out your true guidance?
Or is this still more ofassessing and evaluating, to the
point where, all right, let'sjust continue to clean up the
(34:50):
mess that we have, right?
I think we still needclarification on a lot of things
.
Speaker 4 (34:56):
And I do too.
I mean, they pulled back 67guidance, I think going back to
2013.
So it's like, okay, we strippedaway all of that, some of which
you know industry's happy about,some of which they're not.
Like it's a mixed bag of thingsthat were pulled back and,
you're right, it's a skeletoncrew.
(35:17):
They're also immersed in a lotof litigation around sort of the
way things have gone down inthe last several months.
Um, and I'm I'm really curiousto see sort of what the go
forward approaches.
I feel like are they done,doing the housekeeping they want
to do?
I don't, I have no idea.
(35:39):
I wish I did.
I'll get my crystal ball for allof us and I'll just start
making predictions, um, but I Iam cautiously optimistic that
when things settle a little bit,that maybe we'll start to get
some guidance again.
Um, I'm holding out hope, okay.
Speaker 2 (35:59):
Okay, all right.
Well, mandy, we need to starttransitioning to the second
segment, and thank you very muchfor all of the important
information.
Before we do, though, again, Ialways, like I said, I always
end with the same last question.
The last question is what keepsyou going?
I think it's a good balance tothe first question is what keeps
you going?
I think I think it's a goodbalance to the first question.
(36:21):
We found out who you were inthat first question, and the
second question is that.
Well, the last question is whenyou?
What keeps you going?
What keeps you motivated?
What keeps you driving forwardday in, day out?
So there you go.
What?
What keeps you going?
Speaker 4 (36:38):
I think there.
I think there's a dual answerto that.
Um, my kids keep me going.
For sure, they're definitely abig part of my why.
Um, but honestly, it's everythe other piece, like on the
professional side of things,what keeps me going is I have
been eternally blessed with allthe wonderful people that I get
(37:03):
to work with, not just at my owncompany, at ACEs.
I am lucky in that way.
I apologize for the dog barking, no, it's fine.
But also all the people outsideof my company that I get to work
with.
It includes you and Krista andJustin and everybody Acuma, but
(37:23):
you know the folks that I knowfrom previous companies.
I still talk to folks at my oldLOS and I get to continue to
have those relationships and thefact that we in this in the
mortgage industry, we are reallylucky.
In this in the mortgageindustry, we are really lucky.
We have a great group of peopleand we have amazing connections
(37:43):
to each other and we can reallyhelp each other when we when we
want to, and I think I've beenlucky enough to work with people
that want to help each otherand not just help you know their
little company, but I've beenand and being part of the credit
union space is a big part ofthat.
It's sort of that same, youknow, sense of community and
that we're all in this togetherand we're all trying to get to
(38:06):
the same place.
Speaker 2 (38:07):
Um, but it's just great people no, I love it, love
it, love it, love it.
All right, it's time for us totransition to the second segment
of our podcast.
Now, just like every othercompliance episode, we're going
to do the most requested, fanfavorite series of dad jokes.
(38:29):
So, prior to the recording, Iasked you to come prepared with
two or three dad jokes, and, ofcourse, we're always just going
to do two dad jokes.
Here's what we're going to doI'm going to have you do your
two dad jokes and, of course,we're always just going to do
two dad jokes.
Here's what we're going to doI'm going to have you do your
two dad jokes, justin's going todo his two dad jokes and I will
wrap up with my two dad jokes.
So, mandy, whenever you areready, fire away with your two
(38:52):
dad jokes.
Speaker 4 (38:53):
All right, peter.
When does a joke become a dadjoke?
Speaker 2 (38:57):
When.
Speaker 4 (38:59):
When, when the punchline becomes apparent.
Speaker 2 (39:02):
Good one.
Speaker 4 (39:03):
That's my new favorite one.
I like that one.
All right, I got another one.
How did?
Speaker 5 (39:11):
the barber win the race.
What did he do?
Cut someone.
Speaker 2 (39:14):
Cut someone off.
Cut someone off.
He knew a shortcut.
He knew a shortcut.
Ah, shortcut, there we go.
That's right, there you go.
Speaker 5 (39:23):
Alright, excellent, alright, justin alright, I hired
a handyman and gave him a to dolist.
When I got home, only items 1,3, and 5 got done, turns out.
He only does odd jobs.
Speaker 4 (39:45):
I like that one.
Speaker 5 (39:46):
That was a good one.
And then, why did the knightsurrender once all his limbs
were cut off?
Wait one more time.
Why did the knight surrenderonce all his limbs were cut off?
I thought you said once all hisloans were cut off?
Wait one more time.
Why did the knight surrenderonce all his limbs were cut off?
Speaker 2 (40:00):
I thought you said once all his loans were cut off.
I was like is this a mortgagejoke?
Speaker 4 (40:05):
A mortgage, dad joke.
Speaker 5 (40:08):
We have had those, a lot of them, a lot of them.
Speaker 4 (40:11):
Oh, I need to find some.
Speaker 5 (40:13):
Why did the knight surrender once all his limbs
were cut off?
Why, I don't know, because hewas unarmed and defeated.
Speaker 4 (40:28):
That's a good one.
Speaker 2 (40:29):
Alright, my turn.
Speaker 4 (40:31):
Alright, Peter, you're up.
Speaker 2 (40:34):
How do you make an egg roll?
You push it.
How do you make an egg roll?
Speaker 5 (40:41):
You push it?
Speaker 2 (40:45):
Why can't you hear Pterodactyl going to the
bathroom?
Speaker 5 (40:48):
Oh, come on.
Do you really want to go withthat one?
Speaker 2 (40:52):
The P is silent.
Speaker 5 (40:55):
Still a good one though.
Speaker 4 (40:57):
It was a good one, only by a good one, though.
It was a good one, oldie but agoodie, yep, all right.
Speaker 2 (41:02):
Well, that wraps up this episode of Dad Jokes Mandy,
thank you very much foreverything that you do for our
industry and being a great guestand, of course, looking forward
to seeing you at Annual.
We have a great session focusedon fair lending that I'm really
looking forward to having yoube a part of, so thank you for
(41:25):
actually your you volunteeringas tribute for that one.
Speaker 4 (41:29):
I cannot wait.
Hey, y'all are coming to myhometown, so I'll see you in
Denver.
Speaker 2 (41:34):
That's right.
That's right.
Thank you very much, and Justin, thank you, Of course.
It was my pleasure, Of course.
And to close out, thank youagain to Consolidated Analytics
for sponsoring today's episodeand to all of you.
We know your time is valuable.
Thank you for tuning in to thelatest episode of Acuma's On
Point podcast.
We hope you enjoyed it.
Until next time.
(41:55):
Be well, my friends.
Speaker 1 (41:58):
We hope you enjoyed it.
Until next time, be well, myfriends.
Thanks for listening.
We'll see you next time at theAcuma On Point podcast, if not
already.
Be sure to subscribe and giveus a five-star rating For more
great episodes and information.
Be sure to visit us online atacumaorg and to get the latest
updates, head over to ourLinkedIn page.
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